< 1345334480 166330 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a problematic power supply, apparently. < 1345334508 604327 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when I plug it in it complains that it's not a Genuine Dell 130W Power Supply. < 1345334515 72654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I plug it in just right. < 1345334534 193522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it throttles the CPU to 900MHz, and doesn't charge it. < 1345334552 91564 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The battery, that is, not the CPU.) < 1345334585 519932 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dell Seal of Quality® < 1345335041 112872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:06 shachaf: Given the adjunction (A,) -| (A->) and the adjunction (->A)^op -| (->A) and the continuity properties of left and right adjoints, we have Colim_i(F^i(0)) -> B ~ Lim_i(F^i(0) -> B)) ~ (/\X.Lim_i(F^i(0) -> X)(B) ~ Lim_i(F^i(0) -> -)(B). If we can make a G such that the functor (F(A)->) ~ G(A->), then we have Colim_i(F^i(0)) -> B ~ Lim_i(G^i(1)(B), i.e. (mu F) -> B ~ (nu < 1345335041 259046 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : ))(B). E.g. 1+A -> B ~ (B, A -> B), so F < 1345335041 259253 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:06 = (1+), mu F = Nat, G = (=,-), nu G = Stream, so Nat -> B ~ Stream B < 1345335041 405215 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What did ddarius just say to me? :-( < 1345335218 589306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1345335300 68221 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I've noticed you're quite shameless. < 1345335425 155395 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so maybe it's not so dangerous < 1345335454 334864 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/private/tszvgqthhrrktfcb3adorg < 1345336559 438606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that completely un-timing-attackable AES is very tricky to do. < 1345336859 780940 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Most of the time, newLISP passes parameters by value copy. This poses a potential problem when passing large lists or strings to user-defined functions or macros. " < 1345336882 520571 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was sort of hoping that "by value copy" was just how it abstractly looked, and not the actual implementation < 1345336898 881756 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the manual is old? < 1345336954 251016 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol, does newLISP actually have any of the good points of Lisp? < 1345336984 420131 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has fexprs < 1345337047 457945 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, the wikipedia article on fexprs has an example in Kernel < 1345337054 527456 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1345337064 767246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Wow, my sleedule is completely messed up. < 1345337092 661638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I slept ~2-9 today, after having had way too little sleep some time before. < 1345337118 175196 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of tired all day, but I'll probably stop feeling tired around 22-23. < 1345337177 480086 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I got woken up by firefighters extinguishing a fire next door < 1345337752 584568 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's exciting < 1345337799 873072 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if Tcl's scoping counts as lexical < 1345338012 882846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Using a patented mode of operation doesn't bother you? < 1345338066 273070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even with a GPL license. < 1345338127 459369 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you assume it doesn't bother me? < 1345338153 582860 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't. < 1345338155 973846 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: exactly < 1345338157 750110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I asked. < 1345338165 619129 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you asked in a sort of loaded way ;) < 1345338168 859000 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it does bother me < 1345338170 996272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could have phrased the question less loadedly. < 1345338194 678199 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the patent holder is emphatically not an asshole -- we've worked with him on several things < 1345338203 603562 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :he seems quite open to grants to open-source software other than GPL < 1345338218 394510 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(possibly with a non-commercial use restriction, though) < 1345338232 482082 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and KeithW's technical arguments for using OCB are compelling < 1345338260 596346 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the decision was already solidly made before i had any involvement with Mosh so it seemed a bit silly to make a big deal of it < 1345338289 445729 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCB takes four technical arguments: key, nonce, associated data, and plaintext < 1345338294 304582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the plaintext isn't technical. < 1345338310 96608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, yes, I suppose. < 1345338324 283440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what are IRC channels for if not making big deals about things? < 1345338387 498167 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type level wankery? < 1345338408 323541 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't use associated data either :) < 1345338541 829162 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: lambdabot doesn't even let you define types :( < 1345338569 780481 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn-add data These a b = This a | That b | These a b < 1345338596 999926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess These isn't very interesting from djinn's perspective. < 1345338619 939595 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you see Salsa20? < 1345338638 210683 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatsat < 1345338653 257303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encryption algorithm by Daniel Bernstein. < 1345338665 856890 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "encryption algorithm" I mean "stream cipher". < 1345338704 61430 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was actually looking into that for a project my friends and I were working on. Project fell apart, but it was fun to read about < 1345338721 62839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cr.yp.to/snuffle/design.pdf discusses the design. < 1345338750 807136 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it because it's simple. I'm not qualified to say whether it's any good, of course. < 1345338774 649133 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The speed of it was the main draw for me < 1345338794 474713 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It defines a relatively simple hash function and uses it in CTR mode, more or less. < 1345338804 18360 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, you were talking about this < 1345338845 709337 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I came across Salsa20 some time after I was talking about it. < 1345339010 332294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't. < 1345339010 478453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : shachaf: exactly < 1345339015 621325 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone kick this bot or something < 1345339020 666083 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no se johtuu siit, ett puhun suomea, plj! < 1345339025 164826 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :case in point < 1345339046 923629 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: elliott wants you to kick me. :-( < 1345339049 378123 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it exist what's its story < 1345339060 908872 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to know the "shachaf story" < 1345339066 239836 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: whats it's story?? < 1345339074 954707 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "psyk" story sounds interesting too ! < 1345339076 31227 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Okay. Go for it. Although, truth is out there. < 1345339081 755546 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :: o < 1345339098 736151 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: my story is "very goode" < 1345339105 335683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAA+++ WOULD READ AGAIN < 1345339109 271628 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma AAA++ < 1345339109 644349 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAA++ has a karma of 0 < 1345339111 735262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma AAA+ < 1345339111 881394 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAA+ has a karma of 0 < 1345339116 6771 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma AAAA+ < 1345339116 350570 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAA+ has a karma of 1 < 1345339120 485059 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma AAA++ < 1345339121 218779 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAA++ has a karma of 0 < 1345339124 439026 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma AAA+++ < 1345339124 927178 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAA+++ has a karma of 1 < 1345339127 158815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1345339270 953812 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89B0D.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345340542 186431 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like this person's style, I think they should be using a variant of let < 1345340544 387981 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure which one < 1345340582 188956 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. let* specifically < 1345340633 172205 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.common-lisp.ru/repos/pyffi/pyffi.lisp < 1345340747 295804 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Person also doesn't know how to use when < 1345341030 137865 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I actually understand what progv does < 1345341041 953778 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not entirely sure when it's really useful though < 1345341745 211690 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Haskell doesn't like it when the type of a function depends on a parameter < 1345341776 669000 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct < 1345341830 592017 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :How am I supposed to do my dynamic sierpinski nesting then < 1345341842 70903 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is dynamic sierpinski nesting < 1345341875 84140 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a function that takes a and b, and does (a,a,a) b times < 1345341894 425154 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :b = 1 (a,a,a) b=2 ((a,a,a),(a,a,a),(a,a,a)) < 1345341894 717823 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you can't do that < 1345341895 441406 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etc < 1345341897 546986 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :use a list instead < 1345341904 895649 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, doesn't work with a list either < 1345341918 281098 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah i see < 1345341954 778080 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I need to figure out how to make my Haskell prime sieve work < 1345341968 557945 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can make a datatype like data Tree a = Leaf a | Node (Tree a) (Tree a) (Tree a) < 1345342073 374938 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :primesieve [y:ys] = y : primesieve (filter (\z -> (z `mod` y) == 0) ys) < 1345342076 28048 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't work < 1345342082 264256 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should bug #haskell about it < 1345342093 482298 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, \=, not == < 1345342095 691014 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still < 1345342097 859793 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pattern [y:ys] matches a list of a single element only < 1345342100 610546 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that what you want? < 1345342109 580404 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1345342114 976677 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it matches a list whose one and only element is a list whose head is y and tail is ys < 1345342119 142323 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you want (y:ys) < 1345342129 349703 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, why doesn't it work with a list? < 1345342130 286492 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably do < 1345342168 421203 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, now I'm getting different errors :D < 1345342226 779157 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :/=, not \= < 1345342253 639700 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :No instance for (Integral a) arising from a use of `mod' < 1345342264 693048 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should bug #haskell about it < 1345342270 661839 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I will < 1345342280 483163 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be about the 90,000,000,000th prime number sieve they've helped fix < 1345342310 929125 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is actually my first prime sieve < 1345342332 175974 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey, I am learning Haskell, what should I do? I know, prime sieve" < 1345342340 252587 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1345342366 546058 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: Why doesn't the Sierpinski nesting thing work with a list? < 1345342406 785932 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Because [a] and [[a],[a],[a]] have a different type < 1345342415 542169 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not a list of tuples? < 1345342424 415864 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was meant to be recursive < 1345342427 148488 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :f a 0 = [] < 1345342427 294491 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :f a b = (a,a,a) : (f a (b-1)) < 1345342433 442648 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like (((a,a,a),(a,a,a),(a,a,a)),((a,a,a),(a,a,a),(a,a,a)),((a,a,a),(a,a,a),(a,a,a))) < 1345342436 744208 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so forth < 1345342444 888538 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1345342460 189649 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do something like < 1345342500 814467 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Foo a = One a | More (Foo (a,a,a)) < 1345342519 368199 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :3Foo > /me < 1345342532 380824 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this data type includes the complete ternary trees of every depth < 1345342552 58765 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still find polymorphic recursion weird. < 1345342572 416346 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably not something you want to mess around with if you're just starting learning haskell < 1345342591 558890 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, mess around with it and get your brain tied in crazy knots cause that's fun and that's most of why people learn haskell < 1345342603 377230 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't expect it to be the right way to do any beginner-level thing < 1345342628 344861 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: why are you learning haskell? < 1345342776 41882 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I wanted to learn a functional language that isn't Lisp < 1345342808 133838 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :many lisp programmers will try to convince you lisp is not a functional language < 1345342816 613398 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"functional language" is a pretty arbitrary category < 1345342818 662559 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many Haskell programmers will, too. < 1345342834 610061 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially due to the lack of {--} comments. < 1345342836 953153 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1345342842 746576 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a key property of functional languages < 1345342849 65472 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has given up on convincing people that words mean anything. < 1345342864 690261 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's better to convince them that words don't mean anything < 1345342865 373820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I need to talk about a meaning and there's any disagreement, I can just introduce a new word. < 1345342878 534891 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/thing/ particular thing/ < 1345342904 900112 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it's still fun, though. < 1345342907 181798 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'd better remove words from Prelude, then < 1345342917 898708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesterday I was talking about the meaning of "magic" in the other channel. < 1345342929 417646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "magic" means "primitive". < 1345342938 445011 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was surprised that anyone disagreed. < 1345343041 431285 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often means "complicated shit i don't want to explain" < 1345343056 704524 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "actually simple shit i want to make sound difficult" < 1345343066 730048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1345343083 177535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either way it's "something I'm taking as a primitive for the purpose of this discussion". < 1345343088 312066 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell is ignoring me < 1345343122 502736 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe not < 1345343243 554532 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, have patience :) < 1345343393 616908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a "Win-X" key on my laptop. < 1345343410 173926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very easy to press accidentally. < 1345343420 17698 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :windex key < 1345343463 458751 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345343567 468684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you read _Three Men in a Boat_? < 1345343571 429634 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1345343573 97803 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was great < 1345343811 203960 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it was a problem with the type definition < 1345344997 931582 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345346401 994412 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-1-16.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1345348060 307969 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Your FAQ is the second Google result for «haskell faq» now. < 1345348178 91419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the first result < 1345348188 721046 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google haskell faq < 1345348190 244078 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC:FAQ < 1345348190 412763 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Title: GHC/FAQ - HaskellWiki < 1345348603 176524 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1345352308 20704 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1345352723 164163 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1345352828 383341 :NihilistDandy!~ND@65-183-140-119-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net QUIT : < 1345356673 170941 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1345358124 365826 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345358151 560115 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1345358631 215153 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-1-16.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Quit: mig22 < 1345362389 968728 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-1-16.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1345363157 140808 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1345363781 210565 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345364481 466936 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1345364706 157310 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!eval (set *react-threshold* 0.5) < 1345364807 387037 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :xxxx < 1345364812 924376 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!eval (set! *react-threshold* 0.5) < 1345364854 158066 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1345365294 412114 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :!eval (* 2 2) < 1345365535 614057 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1345365558 183886 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1345365710 173563 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1345365778 618952 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1345366001 969158 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345366109 358358 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1345366146 171340 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1345366159 146751 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!eval (/ 1 0) < 1345366344 478843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on the logs, i am starting to think that psyk is a bot. < 1345366364 537386 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs < 1345366404 141932 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1345366407 325064 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs < 1345366421 531244 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6710 < 1345366435 424899 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs psyk < 1345366443 522953 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1713 < 1345366554 2002 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm from your paste it looks like it may be atehwa's. < 1345366590 999219 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well maybe i won't ban it then. < 1345366595 366340 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yet.) < 1345366826 916493 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you and elliott found it irritating, and it's not very important for me to keep it here < 1345366836 845794 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just found elliott's complaint < 1345366842 723372 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... should I take it away already? < 1345366852 902770 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: well i find it somewhat impolite. < 1345366866 232189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :GET IT OUT OF HERE ATEHWA < 1345366868 115028 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott would probably hate it regardless :P < 1345366919 146353 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: assuming it doesn't have any actual _useful_ features, probably. < 1345366931 938902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@dice 3d10 < 1345366932 255848 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d10 => 12 < 1345366936 632192 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike lambdabot. < 1345366958 7139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goo dol lamb da bot. < 1345366968 957115 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not very strict on the definition of "useful" here :P < 1345366997 859758 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: show your usefulness < 1345366999 181337 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.! it's no use for you anymore, right! right. wrong! please return < 1345367000 323329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21 isn't useful, and yet we let it stay. < 1345367012 729829 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1345367028 627898 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well the judges cannot quite agree on whether it passes the turing test or not < 1345367105 452808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Did you hear you're supposed to ban me? < 1345367118 156398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For not passing the Turing test. < 1345367134 818087 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: several times, yes. < 1345367143 509151 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not for that exact reason. < 1345367150 162029 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a channel filled with bots that don't like to have humans in their channel < 1345367153 924980 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : hi oerjan, my name is elliott and im the real elliott. plus you should ban shachaf < 1345367178 73884 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes that sounds like elliott at least in parts. < 1345367211 950478 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ørjan> /kickban shachaf pretending to be elliott < 1345367227 427473 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but elliott doesn't want to ban you after he realized you like it < 1345367241 720050 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i don't really want to be banned < 1345367250 904213 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ø is afaik not a legal irc nick character < 1345367257 465840 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want shachaf to be banned < 1345367287 100619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ørjan> oerjan: i do what i want dude. if i say its a legal irc nick characters, its a legal irc nick cahractedrrs < 1345367293 436245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: get out of here! < 1345367302 842496 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why! < 1345367305 522009 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ørjan> dont mess with the ørjan, yo < 1345367328 130988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: because? < 1345367347 858120 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not much of a reason < 1345367366 794406 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, it's about the shortest. < 1345367389 237805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ørjan> im gonna kickban you to the stone age, dude. get outta here alright?? < 1345367399 137709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ørjan, always getting into trouble. < 1345367406 300884 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then maybe it's sunny outside and you should run barefoot and frolic or something. < 1345367429 300157 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should stop encouraging shachaf < 1345367447 566785 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else elliott will be annoyed. < 1345367465 319963 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that if you don't stop encouraging shachaf, elliott will be annoyed. < 1345367467 414650 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like olsner's suggestion < 1345367470 466493 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also true that if you do stop encouraging shachaf, elliott will be annoyed. < 1345367476 986668 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about the definition of usabitility < 1345367492 520081 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bot doesn't let anyone !eval but me :( < 1345367501 623087 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how rude! < 1345367508 428933 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bot can be taught about esoteric programming, though. < 1345367508 799840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@eval hello there < 1345367515 801115 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's ok fungot doesn't let anyone but fizzie ^ignore < 1345367516 599711 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! < 1345367523 606582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@eval is the most useless lambdabot command. < 1345367550 611608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@help eval < 1345367550 875428 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval. Do nothing (perversely) < 1345367553 199569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric : process_ _ "eval" _ = return [] < 1345367568 371380 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: good try, but usually we just say !eval ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) < 1345367573 111610 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it is perverse. < 1345367604 879066 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@thank you < 1345367605 396077 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you meant: thank you thanks < 1345367614 972092 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot has a command called "thank you". < 1345367617 972824 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :psyk: did you know that esoteric programming is really cool? < 1345367618 132129 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which you can't run. < 1345367620 433085 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: no < 1345367628 867874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :psyk: Did you know that GO AWAY? < 1345367631 983937 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I do some < 1345367637 967283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: you appear to have lousy tab completion hth < 1345367638 238254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ørjan> go away psyk, no one likes you < 1345367659 879487 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1345367684 708063 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but I was really talking to Sgeo < 1345367693 710407 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: oh wait Sgeo actually said something long ago < 1345367694 610517 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:49 < Sgeo> !eval (/ 1 0) < 1345367733 822395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgœ < 1345367747 543903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T CARE THAT IT'S BACKWARDS. < 1345367754 857297 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tadaa < 1345367756 486733 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I could've made ^ignore a free-for-all command, really. < 1345367772 757130 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: perhaps thank you was lost in a refactoring < 1345367773 190010 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :psyk: you seem to be more "go away" -oriented than "esoteric"-oriented. < 1345367781 465229 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: I never seem to be spastic? Or? < 1345367783 392360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Huh? < 1345367814 446457 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll feed a mass of #esoteric's logs into psyk and _then_ you'll see how amiable it can be. < 1345367816 184902 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it probably worked once, and then someone started splitting into words before looking up commands, or something < 1345367847 302445 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :psyk: what do you know about brainfuck? < 1345367850 681826 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: not much < 1345367908 617504 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :psyk: do you know anything about unlambda, either? < 1345367911 640529 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: joo joo < 1345367933 150967 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least speaking in Finnish every now and then isn't out-of-place on #esoteric at all. < 1345367933 636123 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, she just doesn't know much, it's frustrating < 1345367940 802517 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :) < 1345367954 997288 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's no #esoteric-en, after all. < 1345367992 533298 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :psyk: maybe I'm just going to teach you a bit offline so you'll be ready for the wide world. < 1345367997 218353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ørjan> finnish = esoterickest language < 1345367998 937490 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: Or maybe you're shit. < 1345368008 325984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ørjan> behold, for i am the might ørjan-gutan!! < 1345368015 839286 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a new one. < 1345368018 781337 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :psyk: could be, at least I was behaving in a condescending way. < 1345368026 299442 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: I doubt. You have no feet. < 1345368052 69136 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: appropriately enough, I think #esoteric-en is exclusively finnish < 1345368066 423443 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mitä! < 1345368071 376319 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it should be now that I left < 1345368081 977537 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!eval (irc-write '(message quit "Yes, I can see the light. Oh and you have no feet.")) < 1345368082 123667 :psyk!~psyk@cs27105187.pp.htv.fi QUIT :Quit: Yes, I can see the light. Oh and you have no feet. < 1345368141 999819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Are you an oerjan-gutan? < 1345368172 661178 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, http://translate.google.com/#fi|en|mitä has a nice list of other things mitä can mean < 1345368176 87007 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a new feature? < 1345368201 836532 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: yes, #esoteric-en is boring < 1345368222 329413 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION chimp-slaps shachaf  < 1345368243 153445 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It's not very new, I don't think. It only appears when you just put in a single word. < 1345368308 540201 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: hm i actually think that's a list of what "what" can mean < 1345368332 233856 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1345368336 190252 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :scratch that < 1345368369 260364 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1345368377 38209 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mitä? < 1345368381 779600 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hä? < 1345368384 903582 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1345368387 410569 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :mitä < 1345368400 966650 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hän häh < 1345368401 367672 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mitä sinä sanoa. < 1345368468 131055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mitä olet hullu < 1345368478 385202 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, translating that from english to finnish produces "Mita et tahdo sanoa." < 1345368508 30332 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that meant "what you don't want to say" < 1345368526 759941 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how "mitä sinä sanoa" means that in english < 1345368531 256515 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sinä qua non < 1345368545 868166 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say it's kind of like "what you say". It's ungrammutztical. < 1345368576 861236 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ungrammary < 1345368586 731830 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ungrandmothery. < 1345368625 206974 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unmammary < 1345368681 640619 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :an mammary < 1345368723 362586 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Node < 1345368725 64627 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. a -> Forest a -> Tree a < 1345368766 411716 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't see the Forest for the Trees. < 1345368790 981472 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that's not right for what FreeFull wanted < 1345368815 989628 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t Mu < 1345368817 594689 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: data constructor `Mu' < 1345368820 97931 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k Mu < 1345368821 760386 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(* -> *) -> * < 1345368825 764085 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should start a blog. < 1345368845 789336 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This way everyone gets to enjoy my programming language ADD! < 1345368864 6220 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it would be a blog with variation! < 1345368897 779173 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps even a blog with skewness and kurtosis. < 1345368911 966712 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn kurtosis < 1345368913 308097 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No match for "kurtosis". < 1345368917 302286 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1345368920 35480 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the fourth central moment. < 1345368941 172338 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not a painful chronic disease, check < 1345368947 710324 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The "Darkness" data is platykurtic, while "Far Red Light" shows leptokurtosis." < 1345368949 979212 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not nirvana < 1345368974 688649 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@all-dicts kurtosis < 1345368975 385770 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No match for "kurtosis". < 1345368978 92854 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1345368981 568599 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"One common measure of kurtosis, originating with Karl Pearson, is based on a scaled version of the fourth moment of the data or population, but it has been argued that this measure really measures heavy tails, and not peakedness." < 1345369018 695888 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose there's a bit of a debate. < 1345369032 324334 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(mathematics) does list is as the name for the fourth moment. < 1345369067 548875 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics really fucked the word moment < 1345369138 821199 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well it looks like apart from that one paragraph, most of the kurtosis article uses that too. < 1345369146 272721 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sgeoster.blogspot.com/ < 1345369151 202938 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, this looks very bizarre < 1345369175 55579 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kurtosis, n. Pronunciation: /kɜːˈtəʊsɪs/. Etymology: modern Latin, < Greek κύρτωσις a bulging, convexity, < κυρτός bulging, convex. Statistics. A shape characteristic of a frequency distribution that reflects the sharpness of the peak (for a unimodal distribution) and the shortness of the tails, and is generally measured by the quantity μ4/μ22 or its excess over 3 (μ4 ... < 1345369181 538007 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... and μ2 being the fourth and the second moments about the mean of the distribution). 1905 K. Pearson in Biometrika IV. 181, I have already called β2−3 = η the degree of kurtosis. --" < 1345369182 879316 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: hey the physicists helped a lot < 1345369236 126922 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, how nice, blogspot.com now redirects me to blogspot.se < 1345369253 445278 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has redirected me to blogspot.fi for a while now. < 1345369256 802686 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i really mean is i love it when knowing the common interpretation of a word leaves one baffled when faced with a scientific or mathematical use of the word < 1345369275 625650 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the next version will helpfully translate everything to swedish as well < 1345369278 635421 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And after the July trip, the laptop's Chromium used google.be for all queries. < 1345369283 869126 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO! NOT MORE NON-CANONICAL URLS < 1345369288 390502 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point with all the TLD redirection crap? < 1345369307 593063 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: perhaps it's red tape < 1345369324 606456 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders code-walkers in the presense of ... fexprs is the wrong thing to call them < 1345369427 14093 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still isn't sure how he's going to do quasiquoting in his Tcl-like < 1345369444 337749 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's only the address that changes it's just vaguely annoying (and of course completely useless), if it does change content I find it a bit scary that it does < 1345369454 179706 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that the blogspot.no version doesn't actually have any norwegian in it < 1345369506 731003 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it could be a systematic increase in complication of the web < 1345369511 642415 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it is just for country based censorship (or content filtering if you like that term more) < 1345369544 203326 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i'm just thinking how this must mess up reddit's link reposting detection... < 1345369547 8483 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't sure what code snippits are worth posting or not < 1345369557 913437 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :[let] in Tcl? < 1345369566 461727 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :to facilitate for countries who want to do DNS-based filtering or redirection of google contents? < 1345369600 318154 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as my visited link detection, but i guess i can only blame IE for only logging the final URL < 1345369604 333930 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ok. i have a theory about this one. begin by considering how you react to code snippets, and why < 1345369640 636279 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Interesting, but I can't imagine copy/pasting this into a project, because copy/pasting makes me feel gross" < 1345369643 175543 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way you can ignore anyone in your audience who isn't you < 1345369675 914969 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know how people figure out how other people react to things < 1345369700 677871 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When people object to Tcl's variable scoping, what exactly are they objecting to? < 1345369719 286346 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I can write [let] just fine in Tcl 8.5 < 1345369723 358961 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does TCL scope variables? < 1345369754 737689 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of my ideas will make a business go broke < 1345369787 781320 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell, lexically. Lemme try to check < 1345369808 529485 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexically is, I think, the most sane way to scope variables < 1345369833 403043 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like right now i'm thinking about an animatronic showman in the middle of a retail store < 1345369856 484426 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/private/ugtyuyy7idvprpmotqpddq < 1345369864 894882 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shoppers in the store vote on what they want the animatronic to talk about with their web-connectable devices < 1345369867 962856 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :shell has that nice thing where there is mostly only a single scope that all variables share < 1345369892 640622 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you use fancy features like local, or subshells) < 1345369944 387691 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the fancy feature of "The way to get a new lexical scope is to make a proc"? < 1345369946 41826 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes writing recursive functions somewhat fun before you get it < 1345370067 262036 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I now have 32 pageviews? < 1345370070 693738 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems a bit excessive < 1345370081 338363 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :50% of #esoteric is reading your blog!!! < 1345370137 122929 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :your blog was empty last time I checked, though, have you posted anything yet? < 1345370162 792232 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1345370201 390557 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, just the About me post < 1345370369 505163 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps all the lurkers in #esoteric really _are_ paying attention < 1345370399 829680 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, web spiders maybe? < 1345370408 90071 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION did visit though. < 1345370483 754984 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly realizes that the "web" in web spider really _shouldn't_ be clarifying, since real spiders also have webs < 1345370539 639007 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intercobweb < 1345370547 359049 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and there's probably a new blogs list somewhere which some people probably are looking at. < 1345370618 952131 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and spambots < 1345370679 555585 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :spiders make webs, but web spiders just traverse the pre-existing web ... shouldn't webmasters be the spiders? < 1345370709 588877 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there are some non-spider insects that will take over spider webs, those would be a good name for spiders < 1345370718 464325 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : if I haven't already nudged you towards it, check out the "Playing Scheme" page where I made a good effort to turn Tcl into a lisp-1 < 1345370724 33292 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :....welp, that was my plan < 1345370743 173335 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementing a lisp in a language is seldom a novel idea :) < 1345370753 781478 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ølsner < 1345370772 147433 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :pilsner < 1345370808 628611 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :öíøßñéë < 1345370866 638428 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: spiders aren't insects hth < 1345370872 684369 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: was that supposed to be a rendition of olsner or just some random letters? < 1345370873 377465 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I think Tcl has novel ideas compared to CL and Scheme < 1345370885 778617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: No, olsner would be óøßñéë < 1345370888 737168 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a blend of those is more ideal < 1345370925 765595 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think that's a sign that "insect" is incorrectly defined, because spiders are obviously insects < 1345371340 808487 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you had any experience with statical builds at http://www.lamarelle.org/mo-zi-lla/mozilla.php < 1345371379 21038 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gtk1 ones < 1345371399 745808 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get error that it can't load libgtk-1.2.so.0 < 1345371442 286035 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be odd for a supposedly static build < 1345371452 260964 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1345371528 782297 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can I check what libs some executable requires? < 1345371549 137125 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ldd blah" < 1345371591 152163 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox-bin: error while loading shared libraries: firefox-bin: cannot open shared object file < 1345371606 792902 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that sounds reasonably static. < 1345371611 695414 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1345371677 886803 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with static binary it says statically linked < 1345371691 271175 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :check if firefox-bin is a shell script forwarding to a different actual binary? < 1345371704 474668 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what "firefox" is supposed to be. < 1345371711 291565 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(To "firefox-bin".) < 1345371711 641466 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox is shell script, firefox-bin is binary < 1345371712 64583 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, right < 1345371727 144823 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's an a.out binary or something < 1345371741 422527 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1345371743 616075 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :These look far newer than that. < 1345371749 769878 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has ELF header < 1345371751 31341 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, what does 'file' say about it? < 1345371766 849701 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ones I tried seemed very dynamically linked. < 1345371787 175901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1345371803 808650 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, maybe you can just install gtk 1.2? < 1345371804 202472 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. I had to use ./firefox-bin < 1345371873 646208 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/daEA funny how the "static" build refers to more shared libs than the "shared" build. < 1345371894 403246 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it links to linux-gate.so.1 libmozjs.so libxpcom.so libxpcom_core.so libplds4.so libplc4.so libnspr4.so libpthread.so.0 libdl.so.2 libgtk-1.2.so.0 libgdk-1.2.so.0 libgmodule-1.2.so.0 libglib-1.2.so.0 libXi.so.6 libXext.so.6 libX11.so.6 libm.so.6 libsmime3.so libssl3.so libnss3.so libsoftokn3.so libXt.so.6 libxpcom_compat.so libstdc++.so.6 libgcc_s.so.1 libc.so.6 libxul.so libasound.so.2 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 libXau.so.6 libXdmcp.so.6 libnssutil3.so libsqlite3.so libS < 1345372004 541564 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-115-39.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345372005 387033 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the static build might have succeeded in linking something statically that had a bunch of dependencies of its own < 1345372013 472629 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1345372024 113777 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somehow ended up dynamically linking to those dependencies? I dunno < 1345372044 277531 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; the page isn't exactly clear what a "static build" means in Firefox 2 parlance. < 1345372061 119643 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :god damnit. gtk1.2 conflicts with gtk2 < 1345372065 795126 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly it doesn't appear to mean "results in a binary with GTK etc. statically linked". < 1345372080 731518 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :and given that xpcom and stuff are listed, I suspect that some parts of firefox/mozilla are not possible to link together statically < 1345372164 917750 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1345372301 711735 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :+# A Firefox static build is really a meta-component build, not truly static < 1345372301 857864 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :+if test "$MOZ_BUILD_APP" = "browser" -a -n "$BUILD_STATIC_LIBS"; then < 1345372301 858050 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ MOZ_META_COMPONENT=1 < 1345372303 31795 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :+fi < 1345372329 760717 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a tool that can take a dynamically linked executable and link some or all of the so files into it? < 1345372376 494868 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C138.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345372411 993498 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Apparently there are a couple; don't know how well they'd cope with something like Firefox though. < 1345372431 401317 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://magicermine.com/ and http://statifier.sourceforge.net/ at least. < 1345372450 617745 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic ermine? not the most obvious name for such a tool < 1345372473 641578 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not exactly the same as statically linking in the first place, since the code is built to deal with all the dynamic-linking hoops to jump through. < 1345372527 629352 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so it might be less efficient than it would be if it was build for static linkage in the first place? < 1345372563 523656 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, if that really mattered for some piece of code you might have made sure that code was in the same library in the first place < 1345373050 73018 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired of fiddling with gtk1.2 now? can someone point me to already built shared gtk1.2? < 1345373061 496544 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how this graph includes strtoul: http://statifier.sourceforge.net/statifier/data_flow.html < 1345373113 272541 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the author spent way too much time making that particular utility work < 1345373182 512601 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of a trick. < 1345373185 874282 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: get that package that conflicted with gtk2, unpack it somewhere without installing < 1345373224 104837 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I was compiling from source < 1345373241 986606 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would probably be a much simpler solution to just pack together a program and all of its dependencies into a tarball, then attach a static binary to that that “executes” it intelligently. < 1345373249 936100 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Now we have almost statified the whole binary, but one problem remains: these three values are in hexadecimal notation." < 1345373317 49079 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: too boring < 1345373382 266816 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: statifier is kind of a trick, really; from what I saw about the (proprietary) Ermine, it does the actual work by itself too, and tries to deal with library-specific data files and whatnot too. < 1345373447 410365 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ermine pages didn't say a whole lot, but sounded like it might be doing something more like automatic packaging than staticification < 1345373548 553110 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ermine-packed applications are not snapshots: instead they can be thought of as small virtual machines." < 1345373566 769702 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :... otoh, the sentence before that says that ermine creates "self-contained executables from dynamically-linked applications" < 1345373570 677586 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's proprietary, so the pages are of course mostly useless. < 1345373585 908839 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the "Features" page does say that it will not affect the file system of the host, and can be run from read-only media. < 1345373663 53610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which sounds slightly difficult to do if you wanted to use the system's dynamic loader to do all the heavy lifting. < 1345373703 705839 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it "legal" to redistribute open-source programs modified by magic proprietary tools? < 1345373706 52628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have some "Ermine'd" demo files but I need to head to the shoppe, to use an oko-term (I think), instead of taking a peek at them. < 1345373721 407390 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Files packed with Ermine are large, but may neither be modified with the strip program or on-the-fly executable compressors like UPX. If you do so, they will stop working." < 1345373754 130555 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like their magic is a bit brittle < 1345373773 284029 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what is "Western Quake 3"? The link goes to domain-squatter. < 1345373790 953454 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently an "Old West" Quake 3 mod. < 1345373793 31610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hokay." < 1345373817 121205 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason that reminds me of damn small linux's packages that contained shell scripts that mounted the images contained in them < 1345373867 462070 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345373887 840559 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-145-60.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1345374039 786370 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :all linux software should be packaged with something similar to that ermine thing, so that you can install it anywhere and not worry about dependencies < 1345374047 297483 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :... and so that it can remain working for several years even after revolutions like gtk1.2/gtk2.0 have happened < 1345374049 631487 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am i awake < 1345374076 284043 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's one a-clock and the sun is up < 1345374100 192581 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not one a-clock here < 1345374103 25723 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: that is exactlt what damn small linux's packages were < 1345374146 551964 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1345374208 243984 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: maybe your mind is in finland? pretty sure it's daytime there < 1345374220 184723 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it required root privledges but still < 1345374251 229731 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-root users should be able to mount things < 1345374260 762408 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :losetup? < 1345374270 821285 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1345374301 264553 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, with some appropriate limits on what/how/where to mount and the resulting permissions, otherwise there are security issues < 1345374308 654106 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1345374334 257395 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can mount as normal user if there is correct /etc/fstab entry < 1345374444 938793 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other mechanisms for letting users mount stuff too < 1345374471 999520 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :on linux users can typically mount fuse filesystems where the fuse process runs as themselves < 1345374498 605482 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that safe? < 1345374528 164871 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. is the fuse system in the kernel safe from evil fuse processes? < 1345374550 723756 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to be < 1345374564 422970 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're asking "are there bugs" then of course, it's linux, there are bugs < 1345374638 92486 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1345374875 884601 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my operating system, all file systems will be user-space file systems and safety from untrusted file systems will be built in < 1345374926 542412 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :same here < 1345375034 509305 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345375130 420829 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be something like any process implementing the directory interface can be mounted anywhere < 1345375209 373982 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. netsurf is better rendering wise than gecko 1.8 < 1345375240 798881 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hv3 also < 1345375255 165792 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand ff2 has decent javascript < 1345375285 5780 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I mean Bon Echo < 1345375585 568600 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345375599 969108 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345375646 98715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts running around shouting "booleans are bad!" < 1345375651 93265 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1345375710 510134 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef long double BOOL; < 1345375721 509404 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't carry a proof < 1345375729 168496 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't char be enough? < 1345375758 826183 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/boolean-blindness/ just read that, not sure what to think of it < 1345375770 158184 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :char can only hold 8 bits of truthiness < 1345375773 620290 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :read as in past tense, not imperative < 1345375846 653424 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow... midori is using 41.2MB of RAM < 1345375908 535173 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way are there any browsers with emebedded gecko for linux? < 1345375966 248035 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now 42.6MB < 1345376004 365580 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :44.5MB < 1345376018 476873 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345376018 645481 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Client Quit < 1345376021 348235 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MORE AS THIS STORY DEVELOPS < 1345376042 993316 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345376053 629461 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can a browser be so bloated? < 1345376072 206613 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and midori kinda lightweight < 1345376096 9190 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :opera mini (for j2me, at least) runs on <= 2MB of heap < 1345376105 769161 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1345376128 701036 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't have html rendering engine running localy < 1345376153 709967 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1345376179 686268 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mosaic! < 1345376190 310823 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :links2 uses around 2.5MB on the same page midori is now loading < 1345376191 352135 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have no idea how much space Mosaic took up) < 1345376197 357836 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: mosaic-ck! < 1345376207 263617 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad it doesn't like lesstiff < 1345376239 948685 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-97-154-35.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345376252 971646 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way has anyone of you got arena web browser running= < 1345376258 673421 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION almost wishes ViolaWWW caught on < 1345376271 509629 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1345376288 665503 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of it's interesting html extensions? < 1345376294 693867 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1345376313 406683 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it has "page cloning (multiple windows)" < 1345376318 187792 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is used in which situation? < 1345376340 189685 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, the scripting language < 1345376356 440955 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erwise is pain in the ass to get to build < 1345376369 476884 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never got it to run correctly < 1345376409 951982 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, hmm, the language is kind of ugly < 1345376449 800411 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :every language is kind of ugly < 1345376457 648835 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it id better than javascript? < 1345376464 902200 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is it < 1345376476 593041 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, no idea, I barely know a thing about it < 1345376616 761934 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What follows is a screendump of a demo of an embedded viola application that lets readers of this HTML page communicate by typing or drawing. Like the chess board application above, this chat application can stand-alone (and have nothing to do with the World Wide Web), or be embedded into a HTML document. < 1345376616 946253 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, to make this possible, a multi-threaded/persistent server was written to act as a message relay (and to handle HTTP as well)." < 1345376677 618286 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1345376683 645006 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds AJAXy many years before XMLHttpRequest < 1345376724 778753 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should start using violawww and complain about pages not supporting violawww's scripting language < 1345377065 955566 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also complain if they use more than 6 bytes of memory < 1345377074 566736 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1345377130 907675 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't there a way to run j2me software on linux < 1345377327 193199 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1345377675 541961 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-97-154-35.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1345378524 134308 :Zuu!zuu@77.215.149.86 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345378526 952167 :Zuu!zuu@77.215.149.86 QUIT :Changing host < 1345378527 98116 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1345378953 119975 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: There isn't? I was pretty sure there was a J2SE-based J2ME emulgator, I don't see why that wouldn't run under Linux as well as anywhere. < 1345378961 184124 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Write once, run anywhere," after all. < 1345379011 792661 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :PhoneME project page seems to be dead. :/ < 1345379028 498682 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's just moved. < 1345379172 564101 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetBeans has a J2ME emulgation thing too. < 1345379429 244384 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-97-154-35.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345379579 200860 :atriq!~Taneb@host-2-97-154-35.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345379704 551597 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345379732 385829 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1345381473 176085 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: microemulator < 1345381514 120705 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :also http://www.opera.com/developer/tools/mini/ if you manage to get a java plugin working in linux < 1345382007 159815 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Water is considered the least toxic chemical compound, with a LD50 of 90 g/kg or more in rats.[3]" -- WP < 1345382021 102616 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, wouldn't saline solution be even less toxic? < 1345382137 175394 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rapid infusion of normal saline can cause metabolic acidosis" < 1345382280 433247 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'm not sure they keep LD50 data of solutions. < 1345382413 863204 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, from that same paragraph: "[saline] has long been believed to be the safest fluid to give quickly in large volumes." < 1345382763 991809 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "least toxic chemical compound". < 1345382797 518231 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1345382992 168205 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I wonder if something like perfluorohexane might beat even that. < 1345383029 584995 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its LD50 is ">5000mg/kg", which is unhelpful. < 1345383049 191452 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a91-154-82-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 382670 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 382826 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 573240 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 573394 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 573472 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 573548 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 573626 :ssue!u5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hfktctoiclygapqb QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 573700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383049 573774 :comex!~comex@ec2-23-22-255-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1345383144 661682 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read ">5000g/kg" for a while, before realizing it was unrealistic < 1345383267 541869 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-8-231-214.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345383315 117863 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1345383358 54990 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That just represents taking a bath in it. < 1345383376 764885 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the LD50 of excessive body fat is < 1345383408 872097 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how fat would you have to be to be 50% dead" < 1345383427 364080 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about helium < 1345383447 203184 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you get enough oxygen in between, shouldn't it be possible to breathe more or less an arbitrary amount of helium without any effect? < 1345383458 368408 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :some necessary substances should come with both a positive and negative LD50's < 1345383461 323202 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that doesn't count as a "dose" then < 1345383479 18450 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-115-39.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1345383600 252917 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the minimum amount of oxygen in breathing air (iirc something in the ballpark of 5%), the rest of it probably just needs to be reasonably inert, and I see no reason for helium to be very different from nitrogen there < 1345383606 923928 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, whatever the human pressure limit is. < 1345383613 983741 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, hmm. < 1345383631 942489 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Narcosis might kick in pretty soon. < 1345383702 885277 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WP says helium's 'relative narcotic potency' is 0.045 vs. 1 for nitrogen, and fatal pressure for nitrogen is 10 bar or so. < 1345383714 588015 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 10 / 0.045 < 1345383715 927823 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 222.22222222222223 < 1345383737 657010 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, just ran into a situation where static types would have uncovered not a correctness bug, but a performance bug < 1345383746 889854 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24.52.224.101 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345383760 702927 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was doing ''.join(a_string_here) in python < 1345383767 541690 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that string used to be a list < 1345383813 180923 :MoALTz__!~no@host-92-2-143-139.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345383834 701572 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should try Liskell < 1345383866 7195 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :liskell is dead < 1345383871 543323 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a patch set against GHC 6.old < 1345383876 47341 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisk is a bit less dead < 1345383967 371375 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-8-231-214.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1345383999 103560 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, xenon has a narcotic potency of 25.6 < 1345384014 190793 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This software is incomplete. Don't try to use it." < 1345384017 749960 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sads < 1345384018 131768 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have expected noble gases to have similar (and low) potencies < 1345384049 615466 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, narcosis isn't caused by a reaction, though. < 1345384072 410479 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently they don't even properly know what causes it < 1345384084 334115 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: welcome to haskell < 1345384106 822264 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bunch of incredibly cool ideas which are each implemented well enough to write a paper and then abandoned < 1345384133 932442 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, although the WP article does say that it's at least partially due to the gas dissolving inside cell walls and getting in the way. < 1345384137 309109 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not universally true (GHC team are dedicated, skilled software engineers working on a 20+ year old system) but it is depressingly often true < 1345384173 615232 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it true of CL too? < 1345384207 741864 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know < 1345384224 533432 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm suggests as much < 1345384227 616307 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it might be high-octane bullshit < 1345384258 802894 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :High-octane? < 1345384274 515520 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr: Lisp is so flexible and powerful enough that you can easily DIY an 80% solution which is good enough for your purposes < 1345384275 441881 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, powerful? < 1345384291 809973 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means there is no culture of standardizing around mature, complete systems < 1345384291 988806 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be a good description of the behavior of the particular class of lisp programmers it describes < 1345384342 966475 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yeah, gasoline (in the USA anyway) is given an octane rating for power density < 1345384356 303029 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sorry not power density < 1345384357 636714 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The higher the octane number, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating." < 1345384357 782826 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but why apply it to bullshit? < 1345384362 928243 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1345384365 34066 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a figure of speech < 1345384381 172632 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-14.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1345384391 216145 :MoALTz__!~no@host-92-2-143-139.as43234.net QUIT :Quit: brb < 1345384400 883196 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :High-grade would be what I'd normally use more? I dunno, it's just like high-octane seems like it'd be a more potent form of something. < 1345384410 656023 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-143-139.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345384418 61546 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also yeah, they taught us that in chemistry for some reason. < 1345384421 418627 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i mean that it's a potent form of bullshit < 1345384454 680256 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, they renamed the high-octane nightmare fuel trope :( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NightmareFuel < 1345384503 733116 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was actually quite a sensible idea, considering that most people just called it that anyway. < 1345384518 353505 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, I've seen that sentiment elsewhere about Lisp < 1345384524 234668 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :no-one thought to apply the rule of cool? < 1345384592 809827 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well I think the big problem was that they had one set of nightmare fuel pages, and then another which had no obvious difference except that the stuff tends to be a bit scarier. < 1345384650 313220 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, more or less the same thing http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html < 1345384651 410692 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess that makes sense < 1345384682 237431 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah in fact i'm not sure i'm summarizing that article or a different one < 1345384702 204951 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the one you just linked quotes the one i linked < 1345384705 341661 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how i found it actually < 1345384713 885901 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1345384733 484394 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-143-139.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1345384750 4791 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you were summarizing the one I linked more than the one you linked < 1345384762 850682 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, we are living in the Tardis monad. < 1345384787 500208 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am suspicious of these kinds of arguments though < 1345384791 80888 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this whole "lisp is powerful" idea is only prevalent among lisp weenies < 1345384822 821671 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :high-octane lisp < 1345384823 697071 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they play into a certain attitude adopted by many programmers < 1345384826 976266 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :among other things, the whole concept of powerfulness seems too poorely defined to be useful for anything except smugness < 1345384842 105313 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i'm a badass ninja who's too smart and clever for the dull corporate world and that's why i can't make anything useful or work with other people" < 1345384850 620156 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i agree with that < 1345384857 730510 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i do think Lisp is powerful in the vague sense < 1345384870 486694 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's powerful in that you can do almost anything in a small amount of code < 1345384873 853580 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in an incomprehensible way < 1345384935 608995 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that reminds me of perl, but the stereotypical perl coder does seem a bit different from the smug lisp weenies < 1345384941 943354 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1345384945 317901 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :every community has their quirks < 1345384960 786482 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're talking about stereotypes not actual people < 1345384966 328542 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even unbiased archetypes < 1345385029 23882 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps perl hackers recognize and appreciate terse and incomprehensible ugly hacks, while lisp coders don't recognize the incomprehensible part and just think it's beautiful and everyone else is stupid < 1345385066 981580 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I don't even know any actual people that fit into any of these stereotypes < 1345385129 71589 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that seems correct from my understanding of the respective stereotypes < 1345385130 801236 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely listens to some CL tutorial on YouTube < 1345385144 613343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although one of the video titles mentions setq :/ < 1345385162 321588 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also funny how the definition of "Lisp" changes depending on what claim you're trying to make about it < 1345385174 987446 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lisp is simple and elegant" => Lisp = tiny subset of R5RS Scheme < 1345385186 516709 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lisp is mature and industrial-grade" => Lisp = ANSI Common Lisp < 1345385365 783796 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think CL macros are easier to understand than Scheme macros. This may be a failing on my part though >.> < 1345385388 16739 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163019 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a91-154-82-50.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163169 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163247 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163323 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163398 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163472 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163547 :ssue!u5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hfktctoiclygapqb JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385388 163699 :comex!~comex@ec2-23-22-255-183.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1345385403 48843 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 PART :#esoteric < 1345385403 195003 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 QUIT :Excess Flood < 1345385510 698305 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I think you're right < 1345385523 886363 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the hygienic macros are supposed to be sufficiently better that it's worth the extra complication < 1345385625 920432 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme's macro system almost defeats the entire point of Lisp < 1345385638 537044 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but operatives are vastly superior to either option ;) < 1345385671 675980 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want to do code-walking. < 1345385685 156705 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's that? < 1345385712 202445 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you statically determine what forms are code to be processed? < 1345385737 986610 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well, i have absolutely no idea how you "statically" do anything in an fexpr language < 1345385775 104034 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think shutt wrote about that a bit but i did not read it :) < 1345385828 49161 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, googling gives no indication whatsoever what these operatives are. < 1345385851 412409 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html < 1345385861 80445 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/04/scheme-without-special-forms.html < 1345386099 238718 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24.52.224.101 QUIT :Quit: Quitting... < 1345386105 849005 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, hence operatives not being superior when you want to do stuff statically < 1345386123 230455 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1345386251 564587 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1345386337 788623 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345386343 484634 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345386413 175163 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely considers porting some Clojure stuff to CL < 1345386466 788196 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: Connection reset by PO < 1345386472 500563 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-129-200.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345386478 467199 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way i see it, coding is a bit like space station repair < 1345386544 810448 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets popcorn < 1345386551 571602 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to survive outside the space station you need a fancy suit, im guessing in practice such things are done with robots < 1345386568 324188 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they made some wonderful tv moments < 1345386572 353273 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :coding is usually done with robots, yes < 1345386582 836002 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean.. repairs to the exterior of a space station < 1345386595 299025 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of it is done by humans in suits < 1345386600 767819 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow... < 1345386603 485069 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly to < 1345386604 606570 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too* < 1345386609 491633 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :robots aren't versatile enough < 1345386609 697122 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, programmers don't wear suits < 1345386615 357424 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway what does this have to do with programming < 1345386616 68896 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially not the ones that do assembly < 1345386660 943586 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. the problem is you can't do that fancy french wall-jumping in a spacesuit < 1345386677 18787 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I don't think a straight transliteration will work < 1345386694 719519 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :parkour < 1345386700 391865 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this analogy going to make any sense at any point < 1345386725 35991 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally whilst trying to find out what operatives are I stumbled upon this little... gem: http://emacswiki.org/emacs/WhyDoesElispSuck < 1345386735 798406 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is this imaginary space whereby someone can do parkour on the moon < 1345386749 403945 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clojure's defmulti takes a function as an argument. Making a macro would have the macro need to see the function passed in to find out the args, which it can't do < 1345386754 493360 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :space station -> parkour on the moon -> ??? -> programming < 1345386759 435290 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21 have you considered blogging < 1345386762 367819 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, it's constrained by the need for a suit < 1345386772 137639 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"7 awesome reasons why programming is like parkour on the moon and this proves ruby is the best" < 1345386775 176614 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> 999999999 pageviews < 1345386789 536894 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, can just use &rest args, but that uglies the generic. < 1345386800 846714 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :another problem with the moon is that there are no buildings to do parkour on < 1345386814 979626 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few < 1345386817 864620 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're far apart < 1345386842 171579 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it's really for the best if i don't complete the analogy < 1345386845 957474 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, OTOH you can jump further. < 1345386872 323835 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space suit analogy: Programming in Erlang is like fixing your space station from inside it: It should keep running during the fix. < 1345386877 281492 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man I really want them to make Assassin's Creed 4: Moon. < 1345386878 796448 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-249-50.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345386887 521966 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized that that has nothing to do with space suits. < 1345386899 515866 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i say any more and it will be a case of "i wish i stopped earlier" < 1345386948 122586 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, that'd be far better than now, when they have to turn the ISS off to fix it. < 1345387004 313211 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I honestly hoped that that was where itidus21 was going. < 1345387043 86788 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: does your analogy involve space suits being like monads? < 1345387066 4236 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonono, parkour is a monad < 1345387079 171816 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is honestly best i stop where i stopped < 1345387084 309727 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :combining burritos and parkour using monad transformers < 1345387201 906869 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, hell no, it was just getting good. < 1345387205 292658 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if i do continue it, i need to think very carefully about it < 1345387226 321450 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I still Lisping without paredit? < 1345387346 642225 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, suppose you could impart the knowledge of mathematics to someone without them becoming a mathematician < 1345387392 571796 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does a let inside a macro without using a gensym < 1345387415 590094 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg visionary < 1345387418 199395 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like everything was done by showing them ways they can manipulate the objects around them < 1345387526 334965 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, so I suppose you're the exact opposite. < 1345387552 915393 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :math just feels like a black hole in my mind < 1345387624 52675 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-249-50.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1345387651 244968 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i approach it still like a child] < 1345387700 585339 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i don't trust it < 1345387747 624355 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's always scheming away. < 1345387756 679226 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The knowledge of mathematics without being a mathematician must suck. Knowing facts, but being unable to have real fun with them. < 1345387771 265845 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, you'd just not care. < 1345387779 42149 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't describing myself < 1345387789 578398 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't hvae the knowledge < 1345387796 10312 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-249-50.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345387839 905452 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i do find i spend hours and days sometimes puzzling over some trivial aspect of notation because i haven't studied anything < 1345387894 735292 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :radical suggestion #534, maybe study something < 1345387966 593442 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am aware that what i am about to say is wrong, and offensive, which is why i said it would be best if i stopped my analogy earlier < 1345388002 804048 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, one thing i have going for me is that i can think about things without knowing how they work < 1345388007 707266 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i don't know how they work < 1345388016 572350 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1345388090 122679 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-249-50.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345388112 895672 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds himself counting parens too many times for his comfort < 1345388142 789893 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm however.. < 1345388241 917774 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, there's another advantage to non-fexpr macros: They're usually pure-functional (in interface) < 1345388268 184873 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm finding it very easy to test my macros via macroexpand < 1345388344 888703 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: running opera mini under another browser kinda defeats the purpose of very light browser < 1345388382 758390 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, not if host browser doesn't struggle much with this one thing but with many others < 1345388411 619854 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also new opera mini is kinda unstable on android and it also uses some kind of j2me emulation < 1345388426 108774 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what do you mean? < 1345388427 438897 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : i don't like game designs that sit well in mathematics. nor designs that show off some cute concept < 1345388475 165345 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the way that en passant, castling and pawn promotion make the rules of chess more complicated < 1345388478 390316 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, perhaps the heavyweight browser is only heavy on, say, gmail, and doesn't struggle much with Opera Mini emulator. By visiting Gmail in Opera Mini in host browser, you do save memory < 1345388496 524457 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, you'll hate Go then. < 1345388506 10724 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess Go has a few complications. < 1345388530 448952 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it is heavy on the fucking about:blank < 1345388562 181427 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those little stipulations so that if you try to generalize chess you end up trying to generalize castling < 1345388574 467148 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how messy it is < 1345388726 566010 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling that these macros I'm writing actually _cut down_ on ease of doing what I want to do < 1345388749 605292 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's essentially, at the CLOS level, going to dispatch on a single value < 1345388769 371709 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-248-156.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345388781 346304 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i think the hard work in game design is coming up with something good which isn't highly derivative < 1345388804 797367 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems a bit like making music, that if it's a hit is almost random < 1345388810 598357 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who says "isn't highly derivative" is a requirement? < 1345388829 546963 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minecraft took heavy inspiration from Infiniminer and Dwarf Fortress. < 1345388856 885840 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All roguelikes are ultimately inspired by Rogue. < 1345389044 96198 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a sort-of-rhetorical question i have there is, are the best video games simply a small seemingly random subset of all possible video games, or are they the fruit of hard work and pure intentions? < 1345389130 778468 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difference? < 1345389150 221654 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being a "fruit of hard work" does not make it any less part of a subset of all possible video games. < 1345389202 515460 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :while i can't disagree, part of me finds that quite troubling < 1345389300 767985 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I'm pretty sure I need &whole, but not entirely sure whether I can use it in an ordinary lambda list < 1345389343 905544 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess in general such work is about having a query and finding an answer < 1345389431 766662 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: you should also be aware that the JVM and stuff probably adds about 150MB to the memory footprint < 1345389473 794549 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, not &whole < 1345389475 286051 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I know < 1345389477 429550 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a macro thing < 1345389480 867684 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION faceplants < 1345389491 701129 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: and also, opera mini on android hasn't been j2me-based for a long time < 1345389499 269744 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it hasn't? < 1345389535 509260 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ok i can take that as a given. kind of like how a picture is just a very small subset of all possible pictures < 1345389554 379663 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^for some width,height,color depth < 1345389557 139850 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: there isn't just j2me virtual machine? < 1345389691 399573 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall which version it changed, but nowadays it's a real android app < 1345389728 836598 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably when it went from rock solid to the current one that crashes if I dobletap too fast < 1345389729 509542 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-248-156.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345389732 152492 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1345389775 365218 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so speaking of pictures... i wonder if any artists in 2012 will ever get the same reknown as the da vinci, dali, picasso, van gogh, matisse, monet.. and all the others who i haven't heard of < 1345390131 63205 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the development of photography, high-speed photography, digital art, laser printing, etc i think painting on canvas with brushes and paint finds a very traditional niche like chess vs crysis 3 < 1345390228 408147 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: looks like 5.0 was the version that introduced the "native" android port < 1345390265 379123 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ok. I was right < 1345390283 231919 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-2-120-149.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345390430 850045 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :one would think that an obvious bug like a crash-on-double-tap would've been found and fixed in the years since then < 1345390458 507553 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-129-200.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1345390510 924071 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it only crashes on fast doubletap after it start after phone shutdown or prior chrash < 1345390530 531947 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345390538 50040 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1345390580 964935 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if I killed it with advanced task killer < 1345390591 617638 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after page load it doesn't crash < 1345390647 593532 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :on fast doubletap that is < 1345390660 332223 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also seems to leak memory < 1345390768 715666 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if it doesn't there must be a hell of a reason for it to start blanking pages because memory is running low if I only have 1 small page open on it and it handle 50 tvtropes pages after crash/reboot < 1345390795 840776 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and everything else including sense is killed with advanced task killer < 1345390903 736397 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I reload the blanked pages 1 at the time it eventualy crashes < 1345390908 469534 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-2-120-149.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1345392155 172413 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what my next blog post will be: < 1345392167 256121 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complaining about a problem that doesn't exist in practice. < 1345392185 496457 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It exists in theory though, and THAT BOTHERS ME < 1345392202 155381 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably enough of a theme to provide the entire blog < 1345392280 834908 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: I don't know whether or not it actually exists in practice. I do know that everyone who I complained about it to claimed that it generally doesn't occur. < 1345392335 102744 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1345392366 826399 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Common Lisp has no problems though. < 1345392393 661640 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And by that I mean theoretically doesn't have the problem I have in mind. Although in practice it probably does. How's that for a braintwister?) < 1345392404 572174 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what problem? < 1345392422 484687 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, name collisions < 1345392423 179687 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-1-16.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Quit: mig22 < 1345392448 677425 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming that "Hey, everyone in the world should think up unique names" is not a solution. < 1345392449 531416 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: how does it not exist in practice? < 1345392476 272736 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno, ask a Smalltalker or a Tcl'er, I don't have enough personal experience. < 1345392522 807975 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't packages/modules/namespaces/etc a good solution for that? < 1345392529 713868 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, depends on the system < 1345392548 719584 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it requires the packages/modules/namespaces to have unique names from eachother, I would say no. < 1345392564 746876 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because again, it's asking everyone in the world to gensym < 1345392565 575535 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. let everything get its own unique name (potentially with a very long prefix), then you have another mechanism to remove the prefixes of the stuff you actually use < 1345392636 945132 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, is there a central server? Is there pre-existing unique names (e.g. domain names ala Java)? If not... still possibility for conflict < 1345392654 798570 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I grant that with long enough prefixes, chance of collision might be low, hmm... < 1345392666 96909 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1345392719 126409 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Common Lisp's way: If you have two packages with conflicting names, just load one, rename it, then load the other < 1345392725 704322 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpan and hackage do have a central server, although it's not entirely authoritative it's a good check for whether you ought think up a more unique name for your new library < 1345392787 836701 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is hackage 2.0 getting anywhere? < 1345392797 472116 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :java's domain name system has good uniqueness, but lacks a way to rename imported things < 1345394102 440169 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly notices alexandria's symbolicate < 1345394139 753479 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could have used that, although sometimes it's nice to have explicit control of what package the symbol goes in < 1345394140 993570 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-14.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1345394440 205623 :kidanger!~kidanger@240.141.91.79.rev.sfr.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345394562 663709 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1345394591 349720 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1345395567 794148 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :/nick typedef_typename < 1345395726 931309 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds it weird that so many Javaers are opposed to static import... < 1345395747 681205 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :import static java.lang.Math.*; // Tada! < 1345395755 247466 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cos(PI * theta); // works < 1345395805 615812 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet, it's somehow *bad style* in the language. < 1345395836 143540 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/static-import.html does not consider it "bad style" but "use sparingly" < 1345395866 110877 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was supposed to only discourage from misuse, not all use < 1345395875 454253 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people love "never use X" rules < 1345395879 660024 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause they are simple < 1345395882 601629 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rarely the right answer < 1345395914 111311 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the more verbose the better, right. < 1345395922 879250 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when http://livegrep.com made its debut on reddit, there was a commenter shocked to discover that the Linux kernel contains "over 50" uses of 'goto' < 1345395981 408431 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That low? Doesn't it contain a bytecode interpreter? < 1345395994 988009 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and thus *really should* use computed goto) < 1345395997 140165 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains probably thousands of uses of goto < 1345396002 304102 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes several bytecode interpreters < 1345396003 684832 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did... did you just use a * in Java!? < 1345396005 848200 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :To import!? < 1345396007 165957 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :computed goto? < 1345396011 862170 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also uses goto for error handling ubiquitously < 1345396019 755509 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never do that! You're supposed to painstakingly type out each single thing you use from each package! < 1345396030 988175 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumpio-: no you're supposed to use your fancy IDE to type it out for you < 1345396035 488486 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java isn't a language for humans, you see < 1345396036 820090 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: In GNU C, you can take the address of labels, and dereference them in a goto. < 1345396047 406754 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: This is handy for implementing certain weird forms of dispatch. < 1345396048 204745 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they just stopped counting at 51 and decided the whole kernel is beyond repair < 1345396050 73644 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1345396052 21054 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: For instance, threaded code. < 1345396060 893889 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even pass a label address into inline assembly :3 < 1345396098 741032 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And threaded code using computed goto is basically the way to fast interpreters. < 1345396126 488910 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see the thing about how the LuaJIT interpreter pre-decodes the next instruction before its computed jump < 1345396146 865771 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to keep functional units busy in the event of a mispredicted indirect jump < 1345396174 265702 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but it makes a lot of sense. < 1345396190 697246 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nominolo.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/implementing-fast-interpreters.html < 1345396345 379459 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, pretty much. < 1345397027 199144 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-248-156.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345397245 313951 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-131-121.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345398134 971250 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345398829 661728 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK so I turned adblock off on reddit, all the ads I've seen so far have been thanks for turning off adblock. < 1345398837 337380 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1345399014 99433 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK wow I just checked 6 different pages; all but one of them have one of two thanks-for-turning-off-adblock ads. < 1345399045 238791 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the other one is for some reddit gift initiative. < 1345399120 181731 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazing. < 1345399168 16027 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me how this site makes money. < 1345399886 116188 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't < 1345399901 817335 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were down to 1 engineer for a while < 1345400031 46644 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I suspect they exist primarily as a leech on Advance Publications. < 1345400085 500626 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to make money when you can convince some corporation they should throw money at you. < 1345401847 895358 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345403950 887036 :impomatic!~digital_w@12.232.125.91.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345403984 488191 :impomatic!~digital_w@12.232.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, how do I reset my esolang wiki password when I didn't enter an email address? :-) < 1345404155 952933 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You yell at elliott until he resets it for you. < 1345404174 579613 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(He's online, just not in the channel; use /msg.) < 1345404211 816419 :impomatic!~digital_w@12.232.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks... messaged < 1345404283 243271 :impomatic!~digital_w@12.232.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the Mouse book, so I thought I'd update the wiki a bit :-) < 1345405974 876942 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1345406319 992833 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1345406489 35028 :nooga!~nooga@ip-93-154-248-156.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345406657 499984 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, good math bad math does a monad tutorial < 1345406714 762371 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1345406733 816084 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2012/08/19/monads-and-programming/ < 1345406751 271082 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :think i won't click that < 1345406766 161681 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1345406782 144813 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's probably wrong in an infuriating way < 1345406791 477439 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1345406796 28683 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even if it's a fine monad tutorial, it's still one more monad tutorial in a world that already has too many < 1345407011 821874 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345407053 768281 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it will remind me how fucked the teaching of Haskell is < 1345407079 690259 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically he spends most of the time on scala and pure category theory < 1345407098 17286 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1345407125 931983 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was already doing a ct series < 1345408324 901335 :heroux_!~heroux@5070823C.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1345408588 920981 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345408616 929665 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1345408898 92563 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345409138 304561 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345409284 419997 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, what if it's a thoughtful article for people who know about monads? < 1345409312 659529 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well oerjan described it as a "monad tutorial" >_< < 1345409329 257953 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, he fluffed the definition of monads. < 1345409330 843171 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good math bad math already ran a completely wrong article about finger trees < 1345409336 656663 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeahno. < 1345409336 823084 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :long ago < 1345409441 427447 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(He gets the M a part and the return :: a -> M a, but then he says something about... "An operation which takes a function that transforms a value wraped in M into another value (possibly with a different type) wrapped in M." < 1345409444 899976 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*) < 1345409473 167318 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At first I thought he'd been going for the return/join/fmap definition and forgot join, but that third one isn't fmap either. < 1345409521 638080 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, if so many otherwise intelligent people have difficulty understanding monads, maybe they're just a bad idea. < 1345409536 86073 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that sounds like m (m a -> m b) -> ??? or something < 1345409593 97394 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: often people think they're confused about monads when they're actually confused about something else < 1345409596 344220 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say he means (m a -> m b) -> ???, but that's just as bad. < 1345409610 415191 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like polymorphism, type classes, or just basic haskell shit < 1345409615 736965 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is fmap, if you add a comma after "operation which takes a function" < 1345409624 657138 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric : or just basic haskell is shit <-- FTFY < 1345409626 493332 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1345409632 321761 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you're not trolling at all < 1345409633 90047 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :the operation takes a function, and the operation transforms a value ...? aduno < 1345409678 891902 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, also there's the aspect that people generally want to know what monads "really are", because even with the definition doesn't obviously associate with any of their uses. < 1345409697 486237 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1345409728 808694 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think "otherwise intelligent" people don't have too much trouble if they just learn some use cases of monads and worry about the abstract idea later < 1345409734 624361 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's the advice i have given and heard a lot < 1345409738 29732 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what do i know < 1345409758 659852 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably the best advice to give. < 1345409765 719524 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody in the haskell community seems interested in finding the empirically best way to teach things < 1345409775 924542 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just shout at each other about how our pet explanation is best < 1345409778 623151 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with nothing to back it up < 1345409815 579632 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's all other programming didactery writ small? < 1345409826 556748 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: you might be interested in http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ < 1345409829 521775 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have not seen it < 1345409837 117354 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, "Each element of a monadic sequence in Haskell is an instantiation of the monadic functor" < 1345409847 700470 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1345409884 404300 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The... < 1345409886 857832 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monadic Functor < 1345409950 37165 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: iirc he actually means functor in the categorical sense < 1345409962 28035 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh < 1345409965 422874 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq, monads are functors, remember? < 1345409990 953988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was a bit miffed that he only mentioned the natural transformations much later, though < 1345410063 766955 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that article is about it doesn't seem to apply for monads in haskell, afaict < 1345410093 498594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Monads _should_ be Functors, it's just not required for hysterical raisins < 1345410104 191541 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I didn't capitalise. < 1345410171 6728 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :def flatMap[T, U](op: List[T] => List[U]): List[U]. < 1345410201 207316 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: scala's flatmap is as close to haskell's >>= as you can get in that language < 1345410229 493485 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's the mumbo jumbo operation he talked about anyway < 1345410247 884374 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he prefers scala's syntax to haskell's, that maniac < 1345410271 205871 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although he doesn't mention do notation at all. < 1345410277 175494 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess that flatMap can be used to implement =<<, even though it's Wrong? < 1345410310 448108 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm the type looks strange indeed < 1345410362 373366 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and he later claims that >>= is "deeply connected with the fmap operation" < 1345410377 78282 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I really prefer map and flatMap to >> and >>=" < 1345410519 723311 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: well it _is_ deeply connected in the category theory formulation < 1345410526 282872 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ok < 1345410587 121154 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :something about >>= being a combination of fmap and join? < 1345410607 14739 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1345410607 746528 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is flatMap supposed to be join then? < 1345410808 71164 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was at anime convention for three days ending today < 1345410811 105315 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: flatmap is >>= i say < 1345410815 664037 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have "zawa zawa" sign < 1345410822 889971 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he must have got the type wrong < 1345410877 407068 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :def < 1345410878 982565 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :flatMap [B] (f: (A) ⇒ GenTraversableOnce[B]): List[B] < 1345410887 458831 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's the actual type for lists < 1345410913 656851 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, where's the List[A]? < 1345410922 590150 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's an even more general one with implicit conversion to a different type < 1345410943 35066 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: were there many homestuck fans < 1345410959 726664 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: Not as far as I know, but I don't know really < 1345410960 902025 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: flatmap is a method on what would be the first argument of >>= < 1345410996 284155 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: were there any people with grey facepaint and orange horns? < 1345410998 208032 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so List[A] is the class flatmap is defined as a method in < 1345411009 630410 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, of course, this is Java after all < 1345411027 88507 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: *scala < 1345411047 867105 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: I think I saw some with grey facepaint, and some with orange horns, but none that had both < 1345411058 561564 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How odd < 1345411062 821736 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, goodnight < 1345411068 978285 :atriq!02619a23@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.97.154.35 QUIT : < 1345411397 161635 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played some card game in there once that you have a clock zone, level zone, stage (front and back), stock, and then you can attack and damage is place card in clock zone. You can also place cards in your clock zone by yourself, and if it reaches seven then move one to your level zone. If you have four level cards you lose, but the more level cards you have the more cards you are able to play. < 1345411442 768416 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Level and clock zone card can have a card of the correct color to play another card in a different zone, and some cards have a special effect in a clock zone. < 1345411459 150160 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1345411957 834731 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1345412071 442496 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-131-121.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1345412211 649984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone has suggested that I (or my brother) write a manga based on my Dungeons&Dragons game; however, I only write text of it, not the manga. < 1345412820 616484 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-255-90.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345412826 905279 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-154-252.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1345414842 595898 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1345414873 353186 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345414873 499536 :kidanger!~kidanger@240.141.91.79.rev.sfr.net QUIT :Quit: Quitte < 1345415386 714016 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1~ < 1345415965 639451 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh... wait, if a torrent has an availability of less than one that's Very Bad, right? < 1345416211 784982 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :butts < 1345416233 595020 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems unusually quiet here and in other channels i'm in < 1345416234 930386 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it depend on what file you are trying to download? < 1345416240 734242 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is everyone on holiday or something? < 1345416260 494010 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1345416265 830169 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1345416420 45081 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone pointed me to a library that has a useful function but if Common Lisp supported the feature I wanted it to support I wouldn't need it < 1345416432 788043 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And said feature would be far more convenient to use < 1345416507 665077 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what feature < 1345416562 499549 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A way to specify in an ordinary lambda list a variable that receives all arguments as though through &rest but still lets other arguments as though normal < 1345416592 353022 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in a b c &key x y z &all all < 1345416621 218302 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :all will contain the values passed in to a b and c and the keywords and their .. etc < 1345416622 641181 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In such a way to let me apply someotherfunction all < 1345416642 214805 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1345416654 254157 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know of any language which has this feature? < 1345416683 198602 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can sort of do it with @-patterns in Haskell, at least for non-curried functions < 1345416695 539029 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Tcl might be able to do something like it. < 1345416748 831639 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably isn't as useful there though < 1345416782 186374 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My main purpose in not just using &rest args is so that documentation tools work sanely < 1345416786 532365 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not just say "Oh, it's a function that takes any arguments" < 1345416921 208947 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, makes sense < 1345416985 677448 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are some good questions to ask a prospective employer which is an early-stage startup? < 1345417701 840162 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When you inevitably fail, how much money will I have?" < 1345417721 616810 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually that works way better without the 'inevitably'. < 1345417846 248409 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1345417867 22452 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if the company fails then the stock is worthless < 1345417877 28870 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that depends entirely on me and how much of my salary i manage to save away before it fails < 1345417911 756373 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How much money will I have earned?" < 1345418089 706833 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i should ask them how long until their company fails? < 1345418089 894116 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems reasonable < 1345418177 485470 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK no but from my naive perspective it seems like a very good idea to nail down whether you're going to be left with nothing if they fail. < 1345418236 514720 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1345418358 954977 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have no problem with monkey-patching Object if the names of added methods were namespaced. < 1345418369 864317 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In languages known for ability to monkey-patch Object) < 1345418373 792992 :impomatic!~digital_w@12.232.125.91.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1345418457 6111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Are you being prospectively employed? < 1345418458 648519 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the reasonable and safe assumption is that nothing except money in my bank account has any value if the company "fails" < 1345418548 376685 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which theoretically could include money from previous sale of vested stock, but i don't know anything about selling private equity and i'm not going to count on it happening prior to an acquisition or IPO < 1345418554 860094 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf:maybe < 1345418664 369536 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was not being sarcastic btw < 1345418669 924279 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think "how long before your company fails?" is a fine question < 1345418686 217411 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a pretty common question, maybe with slightly different phrasing. < 1345418686 904034 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly "how long can you survive without revenue" is an important and standard question < 1345418701 661516 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called "runway" < 1345418709 195123 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for obvious reasons < 1345418714 91505 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc's company is failing? < 1345418718 182957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're talking to an aviation startup. < 1345418726 861907 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should start an incubator named JATO < 1345418733 452121 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i'm not currently employed... < 1345418735 593479 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, just read scrollup < 1345418738 923719 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: kmc is moving to SF, I heard. < 1345418739 884932 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do try reading the scroll -- yeah < 1345418742 276437 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: lies < 1345418753 762910 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: All early-stage startups are in SF. < 1345418755 862671 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By law. < 1345418761 513673 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they're all in delaware < 1345418765 437337 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point. < 1345418771 515018 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad that's settled < 1345418783 810633 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But their employees all move to SF. < 1345418847 912029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Maybe you should ask in #startups. I hear they're experts. < 1345418855 40205 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) is that a thing, and b) is it terrible < 1345418868 786689 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's a thing. You've previously joined it to troll them. < 1345418876 662892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You ended up discussing stack canaries or something. < 1345418886 785585 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it full of people who have an idea for "the next facebook" and "just need a code ninja" to make it happen? < 1345418886 931725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more or less #hn, I think. < 1345418890 67428 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1345418896 990303 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember trolling them but it does sound like something i'd do < 1345418913 544706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, but maybe. < 1345418925 898630 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's all about the code rock stars. < 1345418963 90991 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel sad that I'm not ambitious enough to try to do something like make a startup < 1345418975 818016 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an idea for the next drug empire and just need a chemist ninja to make it happen < 1345418981 878364 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: me too < 1345418993 369716 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a stack canary < 1345418994 238356 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm not ambitious enough, and to a lesser degree i feel sad about that) < 1345419004 679361 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think ambition is a good thing by itself though < 1345419009 694621 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only good if you use it to help people < 1345419017 750017 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and our society provides more opportunities to use it to hurt people < 1345419021 954723 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe on balance a lack of ambition is better < 1345419037 407229 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just the sort of thing an unambitious person would say! < 1345419039 885885 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does selling a product that, if it were free, might have actually lived up to its name count as? < 1345419054 886881 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: a mechanism for detecting buffer overflow attacks < 1345419062 333821 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you write a magic value onto the stack and then later you check to see if it's still there < 1345419075 815624 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :before you perform a return to the address saved on the stack < 1345419077 735318 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :google knows more < 1345419105 698708 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping it was nonsense :( < 1345419110 262467 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sorry < 1345419153 189240 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: So you're not moving to SF? < 1345419159 429244 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the immediate future < 1345419163 375203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard even nelhage was moving to SF. < 1345419180 246877 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i originally said, which you have been repeatedly misquoting me on, is that I think it's likely that one day I will move to SF < 1345419195 240653 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been misquoting you! I've been spreading rumours. < 1345419196 144399 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the city, and have a high expectation of finding a nice job there < 1345419200 289882 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do wish you would cut it out < 1345419203 82087 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1345419203 950039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1345419205 125278 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no plans to move to SF < 1345419216 680152 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even have plans to make plans to move to SF < 1345419239 722323 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i also like boston, and have a high expectation of finding a nice job here < 1345419245 160049 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so inertia wins < 1345419293 370431 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover's attempt at trolling #startups fails. < 1345419308 974759 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuckers just kept talking about gay. < 1345419313 671295 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo is up next! < 1345419321 791359 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did leave NYC without a job or a plan and decided to move to Boston over SF < 1345419326 760023 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, I just wanted to see what was going on < 1345419332 386903 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not usually a troller < 1345419333 63252 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay? < 1345419334 658301 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be trolling commentators. < 1345419342 989995 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there are, on 4chan and somethingawful < 1345419343 141039 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess sometimes I troll various language channels < 1345419355 504025 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recently #lisp about whether code-walking is really necessary. < 1345419408 532659 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: maybe once the SF-LA high speed line is complete i will move to SF < 1345419411 999731 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't even want to go to LA! < 1345419415 425841 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like riding high speed trains < 1345419541 207263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should move to .fi < 1345419552 292275 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can i move to the domain, too? < 1345419558 227387 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :phantom_hoover: Gay startups? < 1345419607 814519 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you ever read _Impro_? < 1345419640 72786 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1345419653 165846 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good book. < 1345419653 312265 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, yes. < 1345419678 772818 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a startup that wants to have sex with other startups < 1345419695 120815 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to startdowns. < 1345419699 356180 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, move to Edinburgh! < 1345419907 629982 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. < 1345419908 448277 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. < 1345419912 685046 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Move to Hexham!!!! < 1345419946 47733 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should keep in mind not to annoy kmc because then he'd leave this channel too and that would be sad. < 1345419989 794340 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not going to move to hexham < 1345420071 604139 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wh < 1345420072 609155 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1345420132 177238 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it's apparently dull as dishwater, but other than that?? < 1345420148 702302 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Do you know how Win32 functions keep backwards compatibility? < 1345420171 440503 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the standard thing is that you pass them a struct whose first element is the sizeof the struct. < 1345420236 36822 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what, did they keep the size of sizeof the same for 64-bit? < 1345420266 930510 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no, the ABI doesn't have to be the same for the 64-bit API, presumably. < 1345420275 937318 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's sensible < 1345420285 71792 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do think many structs should work that way < 1345420290 269704 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :file formats in particular < 1345420293 660189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when they want to add elements to the struct, they just do it, and then disambiguate by the size. < 1345420334 178151 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes some sense. < 1345420352 539226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For APIs, as opposed to file formats, what's the advantage of sizeof as opposed to a version number? < 1345420491 527771 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :simpler code, if you're just appending fields to the end < 1345420508 922382 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also simpler code for the client < 1345420531 139546 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo.size = sizeof(foo); < 1345420552 224012 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :less chance you pick the wrong version number < 1345420570 49439 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The version number would presumably be a constant in a .h file. < 1345420580 478784 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I suppose so... < 1345420585 552152 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could still mess it up more easily < 1345420595 273760 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this way is friendlier to macros too < 1345420638 362480 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means you can't have two versions with a common ancestor that have the same size struct. But that's probably something you try to avoid anyway. < 1345420752 971763 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1C138.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection