00:00:05 soundnfury: sure, but in a real program it's very likely you'll do things that are technically undefined in C 00:00:09 and then all bets are off 00:00:11 elliott: maybe "semantics" was the wrong word 00:00:13 anyone proficient in a language should be able to interpret it mentally... haskell is simpler for this because simple term reduction is a valid evaluation strategy 00:00:19 soundnfury: Sure, but that has very little to do with performance. 00:00:34 kmc: I don't know what "real programs" you've been looking at 00:00:35 soundnfury: And I can in fact do the same with Haskell with little effort anyways. 00:00:40 pikhq: did I mention performance? 00:00:46 actually kmc is completely right 00:00:54 if you think most programs don't invoke UB you have no idea how strict UB actually is 00:01:02 elliott: Oh really? 00:01:05 even code that doesn't need to use any system interfaces beyond really simple file IO is probably going to do it 00:01:07 soundnfury: yes really. 00:01:10 CL has a lot of undefined behavior, right? 00:01:15 Or implementation-defined 00:01:16 :/ 00:01:17 do you check every possible case of signed overflow before doing it, for instance? 00:01:18 I've read N1256 several times. I post in comp.lang.c. 00:01:26 wow you post in comp.lang.c 00:01:27 sorry, expert 00:01:31 oerjan: element of surprise 00:01:43 soundnfury: Do you ever use a type ending in _t? 00:01:49 oh i forgot about the _t thing 00:01:52 hehehehehe 00:01:59 pikhq: I use them sometimes. I don't typedef them 00:02:00 that's just invalidity though isn't it 00:02:10 That one's pernicious courtesy of everyone thinking it's normal style. 00:02:11 (ie. I sometimes use stdint.h) 00:02:28 Is newLisp's bizarre reference stuff the only way that source and save are able to work, or could one make another language that reasonably saves its "images" as source code? 00:02:35 elliott: It's reserved namespace. Making identifiers in reserved namespace is UB, not merely invalid. 00:02:44 pikhq: ah, yes 00:02:58 And people do it all the god damned time. 00:03:09 anyway i will let kmc individually quote examples of undefined behaviour, outlying the argumentation algorithm is good enough for me 00:03:13 newLisp would be good for a nomic 00:03:14 *outlining 00:03:17 Merely because of save 00:03:18 * Sgeo ducks 00:03:23 So many people like _FOO_H header guards. 00:03:35 nah i can't be bothered 00:03:37 the fun thing with C is that most cases of UB still work just like you think it "should", so you mostly never notice when it happens 00:03:41 sorry bros and bro-ettes 00:03:50 ok so, I actually use #pragma once, which makes me a Bad Person 00:04:02 kmc: well this is the first time i have ever seen you not want to argue something 00:04:04 are you feeling ok 00:04:04 Yup, we don't actually use the Deathstation 5000. 00:04:15 soundnfury: That's implementation-defined behavior, not UB. 00:04:21 pikhq: yes, I know 00:04:23 Deewiant: you should finish your strict C compiler so we have an algorithmic implementation of this argument strategy 00:04:26 soundnfury: That still makes you a bad person mind. :) 00:04:28 but it still makes me a Bad Person 00:04:35 gmta 00:04:42 pikhq, we should 00:04:43 * Sgeo ducks 00:04:44 the dinosaurs used the deathstation 5000. 00:04:45 elliott: it's hardly the first time 00:04:54 anyway i'm not enough of a C expert to quote chapter and verse 00:05:08 calling Deewiant and fizzie :p 00:05:10 and maybe ais523? I forget 00:05:38 does ais523 write NH4, or Acehack, or something? 00:05:50 * soundnfury forgets which variant is which (since I only play vanilla) 00:06:39 oh i actually only read how this argument started now 00:06:51 surprisingly, it is even stupider than I could have possibly imagined 00:06:55 anyway, if he's been near NH code, he must know his C 00:07:03 nice, they subtitled everyone's ugh, uhh, agh, wah and aggh in the fight scene 00:07:10 elliott: I like to exceed people's expectations ;) 00:07:21 : ) 00:07:31 generally the expectation of being a jerk to people is not one you want to assume unless you are trying to be a bad person 00:07:34 ";)" 00:07:37 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:08:12 elliott: I think it's just that I'm disappointed by how little actual esolang talk goes on in this channel 00:08:19 (that is, unless you count Haskell as an esolang) 00:08:27 yeah try starting some esolang talk then 00:08:32 and I vent that disappointment through jerkish behaviour. 00:08:42 plenty of esolang talk goes on when there is esolang stuff to talk about 00:08:42 "i'm immature" 00:08:46 tbh there isn't that much haskell talk either 00:08:55 it is not a popular enough field to sustain 24/7 conversation 00:09:02 a lot of it is just... not programming 00:09:10 kmc: Ok. Has anyone tried to use my Eniuq, or looked at ternary ECL? 00:09:11 me bitching about xkcd 00:09:21 kmc: yeah, that I *cannot* excuse 00:09:23 itidus21 presenting nonsensical analogies and theories 00:09:31 soundnfury: are you an xkcd fan 00:09:35 elliott: Very. 00:09:39 hehehe 00:09:41 hehehehehehehehehe 00:09:41 this is good 00:09:49 I admit it has declined over time 00:09:55 soundnfury is a robot sent from the future to annoy me 00:10:10 kmc: btw you forgot Sgeo {talking about,switching} languages 00:10:18 right 00:10:19 * soundnfury waits for kmc to /nick SarahConnor 00:10:26 Sgeo deciding which language is best for not doing anything 00:10:26 what 00:10:56 kmc, hey, I wrote a bot in Tcl recently! 00:10:57 Oh and lots of Finnish-related stuff. That's the other thing in this channel. 00:10:57 kmc: best for idling in IRC channel of; best for teaching people 00:11:08 lots and lots of Finnish-related stuff 00:11:10 are you high 00:11:26 do you just mean oklopol or something... 00:11:47 well, maybe not all that much 00:11:54 but it does come up 00:11:54 kmc: you also forgot zzo38 occasionally redeeming the channel 00:11:59 mitä! 00:12:09 people talking about vowel harmony and suchlike a couple of weeks back 00:12:17 some insanely long string of suffices 00:12:24 minun ilmatyynyalus on täynnä ankeriaita 00:12:39 all akkuukkää-ish 00:12:50 yes zzo38 jumping into the middle of a conversation to ask us what our favorite pokémon card is 00:13:04 yhdeksänkymmentäseitsemän 00:13:36 this channel is certainly esoteric... 00:13:41 ... ankeriaita 00:14:35 luojan kiitos googlen käännös 00:15:29 tosiaanko 00:15:55 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:16:01 speaking of the 00:16:44 hi zzo38 00:16:53 I think the last actually finnish person to speak was fizzie three hours ago 00:17:44 kmc: anyway I am surprised you have the patience for this place 00:17:55 i like it here 00:17:59 everyone is crazy 00:18:03 so i don't feel bad about being crazy 00:18:07 `? mad 00:18:10 ​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." 00:18:15 kmc: what, you're not crazy 00:18:30 kmc is about as crazy as Vorpal 00:18:32 but less annoying 00:18:51 did vorpal talk or something 00:18:59 well, that's not very crazy at all, now is it? 00:19:06 i haven't seen vorpal for yonks 00:20:08 well Vorpal is not actually annoying any more 00:20:12 we all grow up eventually 00:20:14 even I will, one day 00:21:08 heh 00:21:09 I WON'T 00:21:26 you already have 00:21:29 i'll just get crushed by the maturity demands 00:21:36 aren't you like 50 now 00:21:40 42 00:21:42 how many maturity demands are even left 00:21:47 btw i'm 17 now :/ 00:21:50 42!? 00:21:51 wow 00:22:02 Phantom_Hoover: did you turn 18 yet 00:22:06 i always forget how old you are 00:22:07 elliott; Now? 00:22:10 I thought it was Aug 22? 00:22:17 Oh, wait. 00:22:19 $ date 00:22:19 Wed Aug 22 01:23:59 BST 2012 00:22:56 Flime ties like an arrow. :-( 00:23:00 wait is it already more than a year since we celebrated elliott's 16th birthday 00:23:09 oerjan: No, it's just under a year. 00:23:10 fsvo celebrate 00:23:15 do we celebrate birthdays!? 00:23:22 elliott: Shall I eat cake in your honor? 00:23:29 oh! 00:23:32 Happy elliott++ ! 00:23:40 @karma elliott 00:23:40 You have a karma of 22 00:23:44 that's a lot of karma 00:23:49 feeling "groovy" 00:23:53 @karma chameleon 00:23:54 chameleon has a karma of 0 00:23:57 17:23 elliott: 16 00:24:09 Hmm. 00:24:15 19:44:48: hello 00:24:15 19:45:32: anyone looking for a tarot reading? 00:24:16 nice newbie 00:24:22 elliott: Did you know you have an entry in my Birthday file?! 00:24:27 shachaf: :/ 00:24:32 how long is it 00:24:38 One entry. 00:24:57 Actually it's ~45, it looks like. 00:25:22 Next up is my mother. 00:25:24 ah, that was fun, zzo38 very narrowly missed the opportunity to display his tarot reading bot before they disappeared 00:25:40 elliott: Anyway, how does it feel to be OLD? 00:25:47 elliott: (You're old now.) 00:26:05 wait, 17? 00:26:08 Yellow pig. 00:26:22 sometimes I think zzo originally came here for the other esoterica but simply stayed anyway 00:26:23 pigs aren't yellow, soundnfury 00:26:26 they're pink 00:26:29 monqy: It's a Thing 00:26:31 hang on 00:26:35 a wrong thing maybe 00:26:38 monqy: Yellow pigs are pink? 00:26:46 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Monad-tutorials-chart.png 00:26:49 http://www.vinc17.org/yp17/index.en.html 00:26:52 monqy: You obviously haven't read any books by Michael Spivak. :-( 00:27:20 shachaf: yay, someone recognised it :-) 00:27:40 shachaf uses haskell tho 00:27:43 "compromises; in life" 00:27:50 elliott: that doesn't make him evil 00:27:54 soundnfury: I read portions of a book by Michael Spivak! 00:28:06 elliott: Also "uses haskell" is a contradiction because haskell is uesless qed 00:28:12 !! 00:28:16 it's like that line of Stallman's: "Using vi isn't a sin, it's a penance" 00:29:07 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:29:14 now we're quoting stallman. great 00:29:16 i love this channel 00:29:21 am i evil 00:29:43 I don't trust people who eat their feet, especially not when they say bad things about vi 00:29:56 i've heard stories about that 00:30:08 it sounds gross ! 00:30:17 yeah, emacs users are yucky 00:30:18 monqy: You know what's gross? 00:30:21 Yellow pigs. :-( 00:30:28 :( 00:30:36 it's ok they're not real 00:30:36 monqy: Where do you live again? 00:30:36 Escape Meta Alt Control Shift 00:30:38 they're like ghosts 00:30:42 and boogeymans 00:30:45 Eighty Megs And Constantly Swapping 00:30:52 Emacs Makes All Computers Slow 00:31:14 kmc: Wait, you're crazy? 00:31:19 I hadn't noticed. Am I crazy too? 00:31:20 no matter how many times you press escape in emacs, you never end up in normal mode 00:31:24 The problem with the Eighty Megs acronym is that that's nothing now :) 00:31:24 shachaf: we're *all* crazy here 00:31:25 shachaf: no, you're sane 00:31:26 soundnfury: wow these are good 00:31:33 soundnfury: you must be getting these from the GNU Jokes Collection! 00:31:36 olsner: i use vi and emacs, what does this make me 00:31:40 shachaf: sorry :( 00:31:43 elliott: A bad person. 00:31:45 Gregor: true 00:31:55 elliott: an apostate? 00:32:08 Eighthundred Megs and Constantly Swapping 00:32:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: elliott now constructible with compass and ruler | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | With creativity, anything can be a topic | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 00:32:15 "updated 4 the 'gnu' generation" 00:32:24 elliott: must be some kind of multiple personality disorder 00:32:24 oerjan: idgi 00:32:38 you're a regular 17-gon now, right? 00:32:40 hmm, except they changed the name of that diagnosis 00:32:46 oerjan: you should feel bad 00:32:55 always, elliott 00:33:16 not like that 00:33:28 hmm, istr the first part of the topic was the least boring one, you should've replaced the other parts instead 00:33:33 Gregor: although actually, eighty megs for a /text editor/ is still a bit much 00:34:01 soundnfury: Not if you use GDocs as your text editor 8-D 00:34:01 i still don't believe elliott is 17 00:34:21 I first joined #haskell when I was 15. :-( 00:34:22 Gregor: I'm guessing that edits rich text? 00:34:40 I was young and foolish back then. Now I'm no less foolish, but also old. 00:34:40 The problem with the Eighty Megs acronym is that that's nothing now :) 00:34:43 paging nortti 00:34:49 soundnfury: Sure, but you could use it to edit plain text if you were stupid enough. 00:34:58 eight megagigs? 00:35:05 olsner: lol 00:35:21 kmc: i'm actually 71 00:35:30 eight mobies? then it'd be constantly swapping! 00:35:39 oh, but 8 myllion is 800 million, right? 00:35:44 elliottL more like 71 *dozen*!! 00:35:53 but 800 MB is not that much either 00:36:04 80 myllion, though... 00:36:36 olsner: I did not come here for the other esoterica, and I also do not have a tarot reading bot. However I have told them I was interested to have a tarot deck to play some card game. 00:36:38 I think the term "moby" needs to be revived, given how prevalent swap/virtual memory is these days 00:36:52 zzo38: I was ... extrapolating a bit 00:36:57 olsner: but then it would have outshone the glorious news! 00:36:59 although maybe the need is being killed by 64-bit address spaces now 00:39:01 64-bit address space: lets you address more memory and use less swap! 00:40:47 technically those pants could have outshone anything, anyway 00:41:34 ... and there I remembered what that part of the old topic was 00:43:24 what's it mean soundnfury 00:51:17 kmc: what, "moby"? 00:51:25 either the size of a machine's physical RAM, 00:51:48 or the machine's address space (more precisely, the maximum amount of memory a single process may address) 00:52:40 the exact definition gets more complicated in the face of machines with sideways addressing schemes and other weirdness 00:52:59 -!- MoALTz has joined. 00:53:41 http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/moby.html 00:55:33 (also http://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html grep /moby/, for the un-esr'd version.) 00:55:37 (shame that page lacks anchors) 00:55:40 Is the ability to save an image as source code sufficient to like a language's environment? 00:55:49 Because I think that that's a good feature of newLisp 00:57:56 Have you seen/heard the finished version of my rearrangement of "The Internationale" music (including percussion)? 00:58:06 Sgeo: Can you explain? 00:58:22 zzo38: i would like to see/hear your rearrangement 00:58:26 elliott: what do you have against esr? 00:58:35 actually, let's not start another argument 00:59:12 zzo38, there's a function in newLisp, source, that can take the environment, all variables and objects etc., and turn it into a string that can be interpreted later to re-create the environment 00:59:53 Sgeo: That can be useful sometimes. 01:00:08 soundnfury: well, he's a moronic, racist far-right-winger, so there's that 01:00:29 zzo38, indeed. It means I could develop at the REPL and save my work 01:00:46 elliott: lolwut 01:00:47 And it seems like the perfect environment for a codenomic: The changes are all visible as source. 01:00:53 more relevantly he edited the jargon file without any apparent understanding of the underlying material or its culture, so... 01:01:02 also lolwut 01:01:06 elliott: These are all the files, the one "internationale.*" are the one I am mentioning. You need NES/Famicom emulator to play the music, and if you want to make some changes and recompile you need my improved version of PPMCK as well. http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38 01:01:30 I'm just going to walk away from this one 01:01:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:01:46 It is based on a arrangement I found on Wikipedia so this is now called a "rearrangement" instead of "arrangement", isn't it? 01:01:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:02:02 'and for essentially abandoning it when it reached a point that he considered "finished". ' 01:02:03 oops 01:02:06 I tend to do that 01:02:10 on the racism, cf. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4270 among others -- uh, I can't find the link to his Bell Curve nonsense though 01:02:24 for the far-right-winger part, no need to dig up links, he is vocal enough about it himself 01:02:46 elliott: Are you doing the Stripe flag thing? 01:03:03 shachaf: the what 01:03:26 ok, maybe I'm not going to walk away 01:03:45 elliott: The capture-the-flag thing. 01:03:50 your definitions of both "racism" and "far-right-winger" are bizarre 01:04:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gnite). 01:04:27 are we actually at the point of "john derbyshire is not racist" now 01:04:28 hehehehe 01:04:33 I point those of you who have not already made up your minds here: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4278 01:04:34 you're really fucking stupid, btw 01:04:45 like amazingly 01:04:48 bye <3 01:04:49 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 01:05:08 -!- monqy has left. 01:05:15 elliott: Do you like this music? 01:05:16 ... backatcha. 01:05:22 zzo38: he's gone. 01:05:24 They've all gone. 01:05:30 And we're back. 01:05:32 Do you like that music? 01:06:17 for the rest of you also: I don't know whether john derbyshire is racist or not. However, ESR isn't. Not even slightly. 01:09:29 Are you sure you are not racist? 01:09:50 I am racist against humans, ponies are best. 01:10:33 Well, I don't prejudice my judgement of individuals by generalisations at all, let alone false ones. So no. 01:11:05 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:12:26 I may sometimes make judgements about an individual-valued random variable based on generalisations, but to call /that/ $foo-ist is ludicrous 01:21:21 -!- derdon_ has joined. 01:24:11 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:56:05 Sgeo, wait, where did you get that accidental quote from. 01:56:42 I didn't accidentally quote it, I deliberately quoted it and my "oops" was in reference to my tendency to do that 01:56:53 http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond 02:00:01 -!- derdon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:05:46 * pikhq_ blinks 02:05:49 Deep-fried pizza? 02:06:06 Kay, Scotland is the only country that can keep up with America in the "deep-fry everything" contest. 02:06:09 Hmm, maybe I should try some 02:07:28 I mean, they have deep-fried pizza and we have deep-fried Twinkies. 02:07:41 Where can I get deep-fried Twinkies? 02:07:49 And are those more calories than normal Twinkies? 02:07:59 Fairs, ball games... 02:08:03 Almost certainly. 02:08:16 I should get some 02:08:21 It's a twinkie battered and deep fried. 02:08:34 Sgeo, ah, that article. 02:08:51 Does it still censor ESR's racism, I forget? 02:09:36 (There's a guy who ostensibly hates ESR to toe the party line but thinks he's this ~superhacker~ for writing libpng.) 02:10:02 Phantom_Hoover, I didn't read the full article 02:10:36 You wouldn't really notice it anyway, he just removed the parts that actually called it racist. 02:11:33 ... ESR's responsible for libpng? 02:11:35 HE SHALL PAY 02:11:47 Is libpng terrible. 02:11:53 Is libpng bad? 02:11:59 It's an example of how not to do APIs. 02:12:10 soundnfury, also you are hilariously stupid? 02:12:16 pikhq_, ahahaha. 02:12:39 Why, what's libpng like? 02:12:48 "When libpng encounters an error, it expects to longjmp back to your routine. Therefore, you will need to call setjmp and pass your png_jmpbuf(png_ptr)." 02:12:54 The guy was all like "well who are YOU to criticise ESR's programming did you know your browser WOULDN'T RUN if he hadn't written WHOLE PARTS of libpng and libgif" 02:12:57 Hmm. 02:12:59 shachaf: That much isn't too bad. 02:13:12 * shachaf looks at the API documentation. 02:13:22 shachaf: It's either that or returning error conditions. 02:13:41 Not my favorite, but I'm not going to consider use of longjmp horrid. 02:13:52 With the obvious implication that parsing PNGs is a terribly complex task requiring vast knowledge and skill. 02:14:11 Pfft, gzip's literally the only hard part. 02:14:16 And libpng punts that. 02:14:50 http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/show-them-the-code 02:14:58 Oh also, "Um, no. INTERCAL is one of the things that is ESR working in his sphere of powerful competence." 02:15:47 Yeah, ESR's one of those figures mostly notable for being loud. 02:16:03 Phantom_Hoover: no, why? 02:16:04 he ruined the word "hacker" 02:16:14 not singlehandedly but he's one of the culprits 02:16:18 soundnfury, liking ESR for one. 02:16:28 kmc, him and Stallman? 02:16:34 real hackers like esr and xkcd 02:16:43 does Stallman talk about hackers a lot? i don't know 02:17:04 esr and paul graham ruined the word "hacker" 02:17:05 kmc: Sometimes; used to more than he does now. 02:17:06 and probably other people 02:17:43 s/hacker/cracker/ is one of his hair-trigger things still I think. 02:19:37 What y'all wanna do? / Wanna be hackers? Code crackers? Slackers / Wastin' time with all the chatroom yakkers? 02:19:59 Okay, I don't know what kind of people edit RationalWiki, but I don't think their aggregate qualifies as "rational" 02:20:25 It's a complete cesspit, but that's irrelevant. 02:20:45 particularly the cite alleging that he "denies the existence of dark matter" when what he's actually claiming is "'dark matter' is useless as an explanatory device" 02:20:46 I have to admit that this sentence seems to be a non-sequeter "The worst part of all is that he blames Alan Turing for his judicial punishment and suicide, even though Raymond, like every other computer programmer, owes Turing his career." 02:21:05 I do find blaming Turing problematic, but not sure what the later part of the sentence has to do with it 02:21:06 soundnfury: It's basically 1 part rationalist and 9 parts silly. 02:21:39 Sgeo: That... Seems utterly inconsistent with ESR. 02:21:43 Well, 9 parts snide, normally poor humour. 02:21:59 Turing was a genius but it seems quite a stretch to claim that nobody would be programming computers today without him 02:22:03 Oh, yeah, and a few parts irrational of course. 02:22:09 An LWian would immediately recognise that argument; "dark matter" is a semantic stopsign 02:22:10 plenty of other people were working on similar problems at the same time 02:22:20 And the internal politics are astonishingly venomous. 02:22:35 in fact most of Turing's practical engineering work remained classified for decades 02:22:55 kmc, didn't Church resolve the halting problem before him anyway? 02:23:01 not sure who was first 02:23:10 I was under the impression that the substantial results on the LC came before Turing's work. 02:23:11 kmc, even if computers could only exist because of him, that still doesn't mean he's perfect and unflawed. It seems unreasonable to say that his work makes him uncriticisable. 02:23:21 soundnfury: How much overlap does RW have with LW anyways? 02:23:28 ... Actually, I'm going with "very little". 02:23:34 Sgeo: yeah, that too 02:23:37 pikhq_, mutual contempt. 02:23:41 pikhq_: I presume very little 02:23:44 Well. 02:23:51 Church beat him to the Entscheidungsproblem, anyway 02:23:59 They both claim to be rational, and... LW seems to try? 02:24:01 man, that was a golden age for esolang designers 02:24:10 when designing an esolang could get you a Ph.D 02:24:17 yeah, LW does more than just call itself rational 02:24:30 LW doesn't really care and when RW brings it up it's normally negative. 02:24:58 * pikhq_ looks at RW on LW 02:25:04 What's RW and LW? 02:25:12 RationalWiki and LessWrong 02:25:14 shachaf: Rational Wiki, LessWrong 02:25:26 I wouldn't normally abbreviate, but the context of the discussion made it unambiguous. 02:25:37 read-write and laser walrus 02:25:43 Of course they'd be the same if we were in China. 02:26:07 Phantom_Hoover: s/China/Japan/ 02:26:17 isn't RationalWiki supposed to be a more or less direct response to Conservapedia 02:26:19 Chinese languages, from what I understand, have different phonemes. 02:26:22 and therefore completely doomed 02:26:36 kmc: Seems to be a buttload less formal. 02:26:46 More like TVTropes in tone. 02:26:55 I'm still not sure whether Conservapedia is satire. 02:27:19 kmc, yes, although CP was dying a slow but steady death when I stopped caring. 02:27:19 E.g. http://www.conservapedia.com/E%3Dmc%C2%B2 02:27:21 At least undetected trolling likely is 02:27:39 shachaf, the thing about CP is that most of the authors are trolls. 02:27:52 shachaf: I'm pretty sure it's one or two serious people surrounded by trolls. 02:28:01 As indeed were most of the admins at one point. 02:28:19 That page was created by the founder, though. 02:28:49 Conservapedia's problem with the theory of relativity seems to be that it has a word in it that's also in "moral relativity" 02:28:54 "For more than a century, the claim that E=mc² has never yielded anything of value." wow that does feel awful Poe-y. 02:28:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:29:14 "This is a common way that scientific discoveries are made. But, as stated above, this is not how E=mc² was discovered. But it could have been. But in the event, it wasn't." is blatant parody. 02:29:21 "Preaching "rationalism" as if it's a religion substitute." as a trait of a LWian? 02:29:26 * pikhq is confused 02:29:41 Sgeo: also relativity conflicts with quantum 02:29:43 shachaf, it's been edited by other people though. 02:29:44 and quantum proves god exists 02:30:05 Schlafly does have a really dumb hatred of relativity though. 02:30:28 I'm not entirely sure how you could read the sequences and have religious devotion to anything. Yudkowsky in particular. 02:30:48 LW is *such* a phyg, man! 02:30:56 "You'll be unsurprised to know that many in the LessWrong community self-diagnose themselves as being on the Asperger's/autism spectrum. They do all this because they are bad at human interaction." 02:30:57 I mean, come on. They use the word "phyg". 02:31:27 how many white male STEM majors with self-diagnosed aspergers does it take to screw in a lightbulb 02:31:32 I. Um. What the fuck and where did that unsubstantiated attempt at ad hominem come from? 02:32:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:32:52 pikhq, FWIW the guy largely behind that article is the same one who loves ESR. 02:32:53 http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2300/fc02232.png 02:33:01 RW says: "That's about 300,000-450,000 words for [the core sequences]... For comparison, the Lord Of The Rings trilogy is 473,000 words... 'Read the sequences' is equivalent to 'fuck you'" 02:33:48 Um, I think that if you tried to post on a forum about Tolkien without having read LotR they'd say "Read LotR" 02:34:27 if you want to join a discussion community, it's reasonable to expect that you're familiar with at least the basics of the thing being discussed 02:34:29 Also, Yudkowsky would have to be fucking amazing at cults-of-personality to be running one at LW. 02:34:42 A quick glance suggests he doesn't post there. 02:34:45 so how many sequences do i have to read before my thetans are gone 02:34:55 OTOH you can skip most of those words and still have a near-total knowledge of LotR. 02:35:23 or you can watch the films 02:35:41 You just wouldn't know the exact tree that Legolas stood next to when he pulled arrows out of Grishnakh the orc. 02:35:48 I prefer to use LodePNG instead of libpng 02:36:37 Yes zzo, but you also believe that LaTeX is a bloated mess. 02:37:05 Phantom_Hoover: To be fair, it is a mess. 02:37:18 it is just code to convert a png file into a bitmap data structure right? 02:37:30 bitmap being the vague term here 02:37:32 itidus21: And vice versa. 02:37:43 :D 02:37:50 itidus21, it'll do the inverse and some more odds and ends, but yes. 02:39:00 Yeah, lodepng seems to be much nicer. 02:39:24 Simple usage is simple, advanced usage is still simpler than libpng. 02:41:34 Huh, the gzip stuff in it seems to be written by him too. 02:49:09 particularly the cite alleging that he "denies the existence of dark matter" when what he's actually claiming is "'dark matter' is useless as an explanatory device" 02:49:13 is that because it's black 03:06:12 -!- rodgort` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:08:11 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:08:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:08:29 Phantom_Hoover: no, it's because it doesn't make any predictions 03:08:42 it is, in a case of unfortunate terminology, a black box 03:11:27 would you say it's the black sheep of theories 03:11:29 a real black swan 03:11:30 also it actually took me three minutes to realise that that was a racism joke 03:12:49 no doubt this will now be used as evidence that I am somehow racist too. Of course, immediately seeing it would also have been evidence 03:13:29 depends on your definition of racist i think 03:13:32 because the kind of people who bandy allegations of racism at people who are obviously /not/ Klansmen tend not to be too worried about niggling little things like Bayes' Theorem 03:13:38 soundnfury: what horrible persecution you suffer 03:14:18 kmc: non sequitur cabbage 03:14:46 soundnfury: I find it strange you immediately went to "evidence that I am somehow racist". 03:15:18 and claiming that the KKK is the only sort of racism is a ridiculous false dichotomy 03:15:38 racism refers also to pervasive social attitudes held subconsciously by more or less well-meaning people 03:16:17 i think if your trouble spending good times with people of another race is due to segregation or self-diagnosed autism, or fearing reverse-racism then you're not a bad person either way 03:16:25 and yeah, i agree with pikhq 03:16:31 it is strange that you went there 03:16:55 kmc: yes, but it's silly to accuse an individual of the "pervasive subconscious attitudes" type of racism 03:17:03 not at all 03:17:04 and I went there mainly for the humour 03:17:10 yeah, hilarious joke soundnfury 03:17:14 The humor fell remarkably flat. 03:17:23 why don't you go back to awkwardly working your hatred of haskell into every discussion 03:17:26 that was much better 03:17:37 :-( 03:17:42 less of a swan and more of a black elephant on the table? 03:17:42 It came across as a "thou doth protest too much" type situation. 03:18:02 kmc: Okay. "The only good thing about Haskell is that it isn't racist." 03:18:08 -_- 03:18:18 what, with all that talk of "purity" 03:18:28 It's named for a white man; what could be more racist? 03:18:38 pikhq: I guess because, anyone who'll accuse /ESR/ of racism clearly has loose epistemic standards as to what constitutes racism. 03:18:39 kmc: Not to mention the System.Process bug you found! 03:18:41 That was totally racist. 03:18:50 pikhq: Is it named for a Dead White Male? 03:19:02 ah the esr thing.. 03:19:04 soundnfury: Well, Haskell Curry is dead, white, and male. So, yes. 03:19:17 Okay. I didn't know whether curry was dead 03:19:25 He died in '82 at the age of 82. 03:19:49 well played 03:20:49 i read " is that because it's black" as "is that because he's black" 03:21:05 only for a second 03:24:20 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:24:45 oh my very old laundry smells real freaking bad 03:26:16 -!- ais523 has quit. 03:27:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:28:24 astounding 03:28:29 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:29:26 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:25:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:26:52 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:46:54 -!- c0rt3x2 has joined. 04:48:27 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:09:21 -!- c0rt3x2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:35:43 I was briefly convinced that newLisp had fixed image-based development 05:37:07 But it occurs to me that saving out stuff doesn't necessarily imply that the output is in an ideal fashion to be modified 05:37:32 Could be formatted differently, I don't know what happens to comments, etc. etc. 05:37:42 So using the saved result as the source code may be less than ideal 05:38:00 pikhq: Curry died at the age of 81 05:39:31 lexande: Balls. 05:53:50 -!- asieNetbook has joined. 06:06:11 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:19:36 -!- asieNetbook has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:20:55 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:20:57 -!- asie_ has joined. 06:21:07 -!- asiekierka has quit (Client Quit). 06:21:13 -!- asie_ has changed nick to asieNetbook. 06:31:30 I think the real time clock in my computer is slow 06:32:07 Do you know how to fix or replace that component? 06:38:11 not really 06:38:17 Make two seven-letter words rhyming for "OFFICIAL'S LYMPHOID TISSUES IN THROAT" 06:49:43 Do you like "hold second one as you hold a pencil"? 06:51:30 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 06:54:46 zzo38: my advice is just don't worry about the clock unless it's very slow 06:55:22 It does seem to be very slow. I set it a few months ago and today it was ten minutes behind until I fixed the time 06:56:15 Hmm. Can this not be fixed with NTP? 06:58:12 Maybe it can but I would rather fix my computer. 07:09:16 It strikes me that using clojure stuff from the Java side probably feels like using very poorly designed code, due to using one Java class for data in general 07:09:25 (Or, that's what it would likely feel like) 07:14:01 I think I might just try relaxing with Clojure 07:14:30 I suppose it's not just a battery issue like a slow RTC often is? 07:14:50 It has a large community, it's a not too terribly hated Lisp, it's main problem from my perspective is probably the slowness of the JVM, and is that really a big deal? 07:16:34 It's also more functional than CL 07:17:08 I think the JVM gives it some impurities though 07:17:16 I mean, how necessary are protocols when you have multimethods? 07:19:29 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:32:09 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:32:11 probably possible, but any sane person would murder you 07:32:22 (To something I said in #clojure ) 07:32:23 -!- asieNetbook has quit (Read error: No route to host). 07:34:04 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:17:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:27:49 -!- nooga has joined. 08:31:36 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:39:32 kmc: lol at everything soundnfury said about haskell 08:40:03 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:40:30 -!- kinoSi has joined. 08:42:53 Ultimately Haskell is just another functional language 08:44:33 haskell is more than a programming language 08:44:54 it is life itself 08:45:26 I'd think life would be a Lisp dialect 08:47:14 i suppose i should point out i am a troll who doesn't know haskell 08:51:27 main = putStrLn "Learn Haskell!" >> main 08:52:14 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:53:30 (good_idea) not 08:53:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:53:46 im joking.. but its just something i had on my mind 08:57:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: elliott now constructible with compass and ruler | come to think of it, he was last year too, and the previous. but not the next | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | With creativity, anything can be a topic | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 08:59:15 I think the RTC will be soldered somewhere on your motherboard 08:59:31 I don't think it'd be easy to buy a new one 08:59:37 whoa, breaking news: technology website publishes article about large corporation being investigated for IT patent infringement 09:00:13 more breaking news: politician implicated in corruption, hypocrisy 09:00:23 IT patents are a joke 09:00:26 A joke I say 09:01:01 gallows humor 09:01:52 Breaking news: Pop singer breaks up with movie actress! 09:07:09 Breaking news: Globe still warming. 09:08:25 Breaking news: Exiting a loop halfway through. 09:08:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:13:54 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 09:16:27 it's actually incredible to me in hindsight how many patents can be created 09:16:59 quintopia, no I'm not 09:17:01 >.> 09:17:04 Sending messages over a number of computers connected together 09:17:05 like i think about all the manmade objects in my house, and i just don't see 10s of 1000s of patents 09:19:02 There aren't enough RPN-like languages 09:19:15 Or possibly PN 09:19:56 RPNised Lisp would have no ()s at all 09:20:49 Might be harder to read though 09:20:58 FreeFull, have you ever played with Factor? 09:21:01 So you'd still do indentation for that 09:21:05 Although admittedly it's not a Lisp 09:21:16 I haven't 09:22:12 Looks cool 09:24:08 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:30:33 kmc: boost::spirit doesn't to work with C++ 11 lambdas 09:31:03 but maybe I can convert them to a function object? That should work. 09:33:11 well since it already is a function object 09:33:15 I don't see the actual problem 09:37:58 one thing i don't like about patent battles is that the essential disputes in each case could be sufficiently abstracted and simplified that orangutans could stand in for the lawyers 09:38:07 i believe they possess the necessary reasoning skills 09:40:29 the commentary would be approximately the same too 09:41:00 will there be flinging of feces? 09:41:31 Billy and Tommy continue to butt heads over patents and the licensing of each others' technologies. 09:42:45 The two orangutans are not friends, but Billy wants to be, months after the zookeeper acquired the orangutan -- as well as its patent troubles. 09:42:58 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:43:15 i broke the analogy there though 09:44:02 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 09:44:29 oerjan: suffice to say that under experimental conditions, monkeys can experience executive stress and also get upset if someone is cheating 09:44:49 i don't know exactly how true that is, but it's enough to argue patents 09:45:45 like if you completely ignore the spirit of the patent, and see it as an abstract entity whose value is measured by the damage it can do to others 09:46:04 "We claim that Orangusoft has violated our patent on the upper hand fling." 09:46:34 Orangusoft claims prior art 09:47:24 * itidus21 finds Greater Bronze Patent Collection. 09:48:20 * itidus21 has encountered a kobold weak against Wifi Patents. 09:48:27 "I am sorry but previous to Orangusoft's patent the upper hand fling was only used for _hard_ feces. Our patent pertains to overcoming to obstacles of using _soft_ feces. Thus our company name, of course." 09:48:36 *the 09:49:53 * itidus21 taps his Wifi Patent Card. 09:51:41 "If you actually look at Orangusoft's patent, you'll notice that your company violates claims 3 and 4, which detail the use of trained chimpanzees to throw the feces rather than doing it manually." 09:51:58 my outburst is just that i am in a mood in real life.. i'll try watching some tv 09:56:47 "I am sorry but this is preposterous. Our company uses bonobos, an entirely different species." 10:01:59 "Claim 5 covers the use of any ape as a replacement for the chimpanzees 10:08:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:09:21 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:13:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:18:28 -!- derdon has joined. 10:19:09 "hello i will like to join you guys because im a big fan and i think it will be fun tell about all scp i see in real life 10:19:09 " 10:23:46 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:26:41 -!- nooga has joined. 10:37:38 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:38:41 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 10:41:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:41:51 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:43:04 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:57:05 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:57:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:58:32 so about 16 percent of papers in the leading CA conference are ours this year. such a popular field :D 10:59:00 actually it's two conferences in one because both were so small. 10:59:24 so what's up 11:00:09 great topic 11:06:15 -!- nooga_ has joined. 11:06:57 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:13:52 -!- ogrom has joined. 11:19:42 03:34 < kmc> paging nortti // What? 11:22:57 nortti: Gregor commented that the problem with the "EMACS -> Eighty Megs And Constantly Swapping" expansion is that 80 megs is "nothing" now. 11:23:09 nortti: I think kmc was hoping you'd disagree. 11:23:25 (Though the acronym was "eight" when I heard it.) 11:23:25 nortti would, yes. 11:23:28 80 megs it _much_ 11:23:29 But nortti is nutty. 11:23:53 *a lot 11:24:09 #esoteric: may contain nuts. 11:24:15 :P 11:26:55 in my opinion even a _single_ bit is quite a bit of memory. 11:27:36 Every biiiiiiit is preeeeeecious! 11:27:41 Every biiiiiiit is gooooooood! 11:31:19 Hoh, the DS apparently has a memory-mapped hardware div/rem (64-bit in/out) and sqrt (64-to-32) things. Fancy. 11:32:24 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:45:51 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 11:52:25 -!- MoALTz has joined. 11:54:36 -!- MoALTz has quit (Client Quit). 11:57:41 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:00:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:00:50 -!- MoALTz has joined. 12:16:24 -!- itidus20 has joined. 12:17:26 "Where do babies come from? Well, when a man and a woman love each other very much [REDACTED] and then the mommy says 'Oooh, I've never seen one so big!' [REDACTED] seven dwarves, but not those seven dwarves, that'd be silly, [REDACTED] which is the exact moment your uncle Steve comes out from behind the camera [REDACTED] 17 monkeys, three camels, and a VERY frisky otter [REDACTED] which kind of makes sense, considering your hair color [REDAC 12:17:27 TED] dirty, dirty, dirty whore [REDACTED] "It'll never fit!" [REDACTED] and then, nine months later, with your mother cussing the entire time, and plotting your eventual devise, bam, a baby is adopted from an Asian country by two happy lesbians." 12:17:50 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:19:52 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:21:24 Sgeo: is JVM actually that slow? i mean, what are you going on here 12:22:26 I think elliott saying he wouldn't use an esolang implementation written in Clojure affected me to perhaps an extreme degree 12:32:18 Sgeo: Babies are made in China? 12:33:33 fizzie: So you write the two values to memory and read back the result? 12:33:40 Interesting 12:41:29 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 12:50:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_triggered_architecture 12:56:05 FreeFull: Yes. And then there's a mode/status reg that can be asked for if it's busy or what. 13:14:19 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 13:44:25 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Quit: Connection reset by PO). 13:55:54 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:04:49 afaik Sun/Oracle JVM is one of the faster implementations of any managed language 14:04:54 the shootout agrees fwiw 14:04:55 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php 14:06:15 they don't have LuaJIT :/ 14:09:55 -!- c0rt3x has joined. 14:09:57 Well, people have been paid real money (not just Monopoly dollars) to worry about the efficiency of that JVM, it ought to have done something. 14:10:04 yeah 14:10:09 lots of people over decades 14:13:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:20:37 "If you see the machine doing something with dazzling speed, it's probably the built-in machine language doing it." 14:21:02 (Random youtube clicking took me to a two-hour C64 introduction video.) 14:24:16 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:30:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:33:26 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:44:46 i finally got around to watching _The Social NetworK_ 14:52:42 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 14:53:25 You didn't have to 14:54:09 The Commodore 64 isn't that complicated 15:03:17 i love the term built in machine language 15:11:56 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:16:04 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:22:49 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:27:04 -!- cuttlefish has joined. 15:27:24 -!- boily has joined. 15:30:53 -!- sivoais has joined. 15:45:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:47:08 itidus20: Suggesting it could be not built in? 15:47:41 well actually this is the first time ive heard it but yes the comedy is there on many levels 15:48:25 the degree to which machine language is "built in" varies widely 15:48:42 for example operating systems will emulate instructions which are not implemented by your particular processor 15:50:23 The processor might have separate microcode to define what instructions there are 15:50:47 yeah, and microcode can sometimes be re-flashed 15:51:03 freefall, basically kmc has got my back to protect me from saying things which aren't true 15:51:06 The N64 had changeable microcode for the graphics 15:51:26 itidus20: i could never accomplish such a feat 15:51:37 Most developers didn't make use of it 15:51:43 But you could do some great things with it 15:51:58 Most emulators won't emulate it though 15:52:04 what could you do? 15:52:18 emulation is so bad ass 15:52:34 it has all the drawbacks of reality too 15:53:04 Being clever, you could create graphics that would outdo the Playstation 15:53:13 itidus20 have you used the debian/ubuntu magic qemulated chroots 15:53:15 its like trying to play videogames in hell (not that i believe in hell in that sense) 15:53:40 it's pretty slick 15:53:43 its like.. ok the graphics look perfect.. the framerate is fine... but.. oh no.. i just tried to save and the emulator died 15:53:50 but no you're just talking about video games 15:53:55 curse you.... foul... demon! 15:54:14 kmc: i always live in the shadows of the wonderful things 15:54:34 eg.. in programming languages i cant see beyond c++ and visual basic 15:54:45 but C++ is fascinating! 15:54:47 and in math i can't see beyond middleschool math homework 15:54:52 C++ is a big ball of mud 15:54:57 no it's not actually 15:55:03 and in emulation i can't see past video games 15:55:25 The N64 graphics chip allowed you to reprogram basically everything about it 15:55:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:55:33 C++ is a bad language, but it's bad in almost the opposite way of most bad languages 15:55:38 but i guess i enjoy knowing theres more to things than i am aware of 15:55:56 C++ is bad because it is a whole load of good elements mixed together 15:56:02 but i don't really know it 15:56:10 in *theory*, all the C++ features fit together perfectly to form something that's powerful, conceptually consistent, elegant, and very unusual 15:56:15 Most bad languages are just a whole load of bad elements 15:56:18 if you really learn the language well, you start to see that 15:56:24 oh.. so its kind of the communism of programming languages? 15:56:34 but, in *practice*, this amazing edifice they've built just kinda sucks for getting anything done 15:56:46 it's not like PHP where idiots have just been adding features willy nilly 15:56:53 the C++ designers put a *lot* of thought in 15:57:01 In practice most people aren't smart enough to make full use of C++ 15:57:01 -!- augur has joined. 15:57:14 not smart enough, and/or don't have years of their life to waste on learning it 15:57:27 That too 15:57:32 there are a lot of similarities between C++ and Haskell 15:57:40 with respect to the above 15:57:42 well.. c++ isn't good for people who read language standards 15:57:56 its apparently too big 15:58:31 so real world projects end up using haphazardly chosen subsets of C++ 15:58:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:58:48 and people approach it as "C with stuff grafted on" 15:59:14 Haskell seems simpler than C++ to me 15:59:16 and this is a lot *less* elegant than what C++ was intended to be 15:59:23 but maybe also better for getting stuff done 15:59:24 i recall theres some test suite for C which has the name 9000 in it's name 16:00:19 C++ would be better if it didn't start out with a C base, but it also would be less popular 16:00:35 maybe not 16:01:01 FreeFull: yeah 16:01:11 a lot of the avoidable ugliness is syntactic ugliness relating to that choice 16:01:32 they could have just specified an interface to C without making it take over the language 16:01:40 every other popular language has a way to call C 16:01:54 oh i recall now 16:02:02 fruit fucker 9000 16:02:06 it was something to do with undefined behavior 16:02:34 ahh death station 9000 16:03:09 so, the existence of such things suggests that people have a grip on C 16:04:16 even if theres elements in truth in what im saying, i should stop. i know im bullshitting 16:04:23 i know it 16:05:58 As far as I understand, you can only use $ with functions that take multiple arguments if the whole thing is in brackets or if the $ is before the last argument? 16:06:35 So atan2 $ something something won't work 16:06:50 Sorry, talking about Haskell 16:07:57 If ($)’s fixity was fixed (no pun inteded) one could use atan2 $ a $ b. Well, using $ with atan2 is horrible, but it would be useful in longer expressions where the parameters are on separate lines. 16:08:03 > atan2 $ negate 3 16:08:04 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) 16:08:04 arising from a use of `... 16:08:08 god damn it lambdabot 16:08:13 die in a fire and burn in hell 16:09:32 > atan2 3 $ negate 3 16:09:33 FreeFull: every function takes exactly one argument 16:09:33 2.356194490192345 16:09:41 there are no "functions that take multiple arguments" 16:09:53 the rule you stated seems messy, it's better to focus on what's actually going on i think 16:10:14 in one small program i wrote once, i found that trying to use c++ as oop gave me good results 16:10:17 kmc: I'm thinking, if you do atan2 $ something, you create a function 16:10:23 > let f = subtract $ negate 3 in f 4 16:10:24 7 16:10:40 But you can't call it with your next argument without () or using let like you did 16:10:42 :t atan2 $ ?x 16:10:44 forall a. (RealFloat a, ?x::a) => a -> a 16:11:09 > let ($) = (Prelude.$); infixl 0 $ in atan2 $ 4 $ 5 16:11:09 that seems like a true fact FreeFull 16:11:10 0.6747409422235527 16:11:22 (well there are some other ways to name something, besides let) 16:11:22 maybe people who are highly experienced at coding, like having their 10,000 hours, can just read code easily 16:11:37 itidus20: what an outrageous claim 16:12:09 > sin . atan2 3 $ 3 16:12:13 0.7071067811865475 16:12:13 i think that reading code and seeing what it is doing is incredibly difficult 16:12:33 itidus20: Depends on how it was coded 16:12:47 at the most novice level, sure i can read the identifiers and infer from them what the code is doing 16:13:06 but, relying on identifiers is surely bad 16:13:16 When you see puts("Hello, World!"); 16:13:19 i feel i rely on identifiers 16:13:25 You can identify what that does quickly, right? 16:13:36 yes 16:14:22 How about show 'H':'e':'l':'l':'o':[] 16:15:17 i am relying on the alphabetical characters to tell me what is happening which is.... showHello 16:15:39 well i guess.. i am not quite that desperate.. i know 'x' is a character 16:15:51 Well, if you see something like A385BB35 16:16:08 How are you going to know what it does without understanding what the identifiers mean 16:16:33 A3 could be add, subtract, or even pop from stack 16:17:39 It's always about using your current knowledge, and if you don't know enough, learning more 16:19:00 i guess thats the fun thing about esolangs 16:19:05 they rarely have identifiers 16:19:25 -!- c0rt3x2 has joined. 16:19:40 among all the other fun things about esolangs 16:19:57 If you encounter something which has nothing to do with anything you learned before, no amount of being super awesome will help, you just have to look at the documentation 16:20:38 Or look at the code 16:20:56 itidus20: they rarely have identifiers because almost all of them are brainfuck clones 16:20:59 ;) 16:21:57 Brainfuck clones or a stack-based language 16:22:18 Although "stack based" is a wide category 16:22:24 Funges are technically stack-based 16:22:28 true 16:22:35 But certainly not your usual language 16:22:38 -!- c0rt3x has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:22:48 there aren't that many lisp clones when I think about it 16:23:01 They tend to be called lisp dialects 16:23:07 how would you make an eso-lisp? 16:23:14 i think there are a few on the wiki 16:23:19 I would get rid of all the () 16:23:25 well i got a psp and a ds recently... and homebrewing hardware.. and at some point i thought wow this is really cool.. emulation really has a lot of effects 16:23:43 but, it always seems to have drawbacks.. it's never quite there 16:23:44 FreeFull: good luck using if with that 16:23:51 (I tried) 16:24:14 its always a work in progress project waiting to curl up and die 16:24:15 nortti: Lisp uses prefix syntax anyway 16:24:34 The only issue is where you can have an arbitrary amount of parameters, or possibly with macros 16:24:43 FreeFull: yes but how you know how many params function needs? 16:24:46 new hardware and new hacks get released and suddenly its wasteful to fix a broken emulator 16:26:41 nortti: If it's something like + or *, it can have an arbitrary number of parameters, so you could either restrict them to 2 parameters or have the first parameters be the number of parameters afterwards 16:27:03 Most functions have a fixed number of parameters 16:27:29 And with a lambda you know how many parameters there are too, since that gets specified 16:27:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:28:06 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 16:28:57 An example lambda would be lambda list 3 'x 'y 'z * x * y z 16:29:07 A lambda here expects two parameters 16:29:59 And produces a function which expects three parameters 16:30:13 lambda list 3 'x 'y 'z * x * y z 1 2 3 should print 6 16:30:24 I admit it's not very readable though 16:30:44 You can always split stuff into smaller chunks though 16:31:25 defun multiply3 qlist 3 x y z * x * y z; multiply3 1 2 3 16:31:31 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:31:52 There's a SRFI that adds "I-expressions", an indentation-based way of writing S-expressions. You can also mix-n-match. Though I think it was withdrawn, maybe. 16:32:19 Oh, it wasn't. 16:32:21 Well, anyway. 16:32:23 You could have a preprocessor that converts (x y z) into list 3 x y z and '(x y z) into qlist 3 x y z 16:32:51 fizzie: how do I write (foo (bar)(baz)) in I-expressions 16:35:29 FreeFull: in scheme you can make a lambda which takes an arbitrary number of arguments 16:35:53 you would have to restrict / change that ability as well 16:36:23 nortti: "foo\n group bar\n group baz" I think. There's a special "group" symbol to support lists whose first element is a list. Plain "foo\n bar\n baz" would have been (foo bar baz). 16:36:36 kmc: You'd need to have the caller pass in the number of arguments 16:38:28 Hey, apparently in lisp (*) is equivalent to 1 and (+) to 0 16:38:41 yes 16:38:57 So you could get rid of digits altogether 16:39:35 And create all numbers using (*) (/) (+) (-) 16:39:58 :P 16:40:08 Scheme, too. And (- x) is (- 0 x), while (/ x) is (/ 1 x). But the >2-argument extensions of - and / are optional. 16:40:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:41:15 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:41:45 Does Haskell have a way to produce a number without using any digits? 16:42:15 > length "!!!" 16:42:16 3 16:42:18 -!- c0rt3x2 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de). 16:42:21 That works 16:42:23 > maxBound :: Integer 16:42:24 No instance for (GHC.Enum.Bounded GHC.Integer.Type.Integer) 16:42:24 arising from... 16:42:29 > maxBound :: Int -- duh 16:42:30 9223372036854775807 16:42:35 Does the Lisp (*) (+) just multiply and add any number of arguments? If so then it makes sense that (*) would be 1 and (+) would be zero 16:42:38 How about without using lists either? 16:42:41 zzo38: Yes. 16:43:18 How would you use maxBound to produce numbers smaller than maxBound itself? 16:43:26 > fromEnum 'a' 16:43:26 Well, there's quite a few different maxBounds. 16:43:27 97 16:43:33 Oh, I know 16:43:37 Divide it by itself 16:43:40 > minBound :: Word8 16:43:41 0 16:44:03 > succ . minBound :: Word8 16:44:05 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Word.Word8' 16:44:05 against inferred type... 16:44:07 > succ minBound :: Word8 16:44:09 1 16:44:24 > [fromEnum False, fromEnum True] 16:44:26 [0,1] 16:44:36 Those are quite easy 0 and 1 there. 16:44:53 > (maxBound :: Int) `div` (maxBound :: Int) 16:44:54 1 16:45:05 succ works too 16:45:10 > join div maxBound 16:45:12 Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints: 16:45:12 `GHC.Enum.Bounded a' 16:45:12 ... 16:45:14 > join div maxBound :: Int 16:45:16 1 16:45:44 > (join (-) . join div) maxBound :: Int 16:45:46 0 16:45:50 What is join part of? 16:46:02 @type join 16:46:04 forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => m (m a) -> m a 16:46:16 It's part of Control.Monad if you mean where it's from. 16:46:16 where m ~ ((->) r) 16:46:32 Yeah, that's what I meant 16:47:56 -!- MoALTz has joined. 16:48:58 > (sum [], product []) 16:48:59 (0,1) 17:01:23 Yeah but that uses lists =P 17:07:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 17:12:34 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:12:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 17:12:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:22:30 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:30:49 -!- pumpkin has joined. 17:31:00 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:31:55 -!- pumpkin has quit (Client Quit). 17:33:20 -!- atehwa_ has joined. 17:37:54 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:54 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:55 -!- SimonRC has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:55 -!- ssue has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:55 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- oklopol has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- TodPunk has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- hogeyui_ has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- nooga_ has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- mroman has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- kinoSi has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- yiyus_ has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- nortti| has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:56 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- cuttlefish has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- ion has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- kmc has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:58 -!- oonbotti has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:58 -!- lahwran has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split). 17:37:58 -!- sivoais has quit (*.net *.split). 17:38:00 -!- kallisti has quit (*.net *.split). 17:38:00 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (*.net *.split). 17:38:00 -!- itidus20 has quit (*.net *.split). 17:38:00 -!- sirdancealot has quit (*.net *.split). 17:38:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:38:24 -!- ion has joined. 17:38:24 -!- kmc has joined. 17:38:48 -!- nooga_ has joined. 17:38:48 -!- lambdabot has joined. 17:38:48 -!- mroman has joined. 17:38:59 -!- comex has joined. 17:38:59 -!- kallisti has joined. 17:38:59 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 17:38:59 -!- itidus20 has joined. 17:38:59 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 17:39:47 -!- quintopia has joined. 17:39:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:39:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:39:58 -!- HackEgo has joined. 17:39:58 -!- coppro has joined. 17:39:58 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 17:39:58 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:39:59 -!- shachaf has joined. 17:39:59 -!- aloril has joined. 17:39:59 -!- fungot has joined. 17:39:59 -!- TodPunk has joined. 17:39:59 -!- hogeyui_ has joined. 17:40:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:40:05 -!- oonbotti has joined. 17:40:05 -!- lahwran has joined. 17:40:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:40:41 -!- cuttlefish has joined. 17:40:46 -!- sivoais_ has joined. 17:40:47 -!- kinoSi has joined. 17:40:47 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:40:47 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 17:40:47 -!- nortti| has joined. 17:40:47 -!- ineiros has joined. 17:40:47 -!- jix has joined. 17:40:47 -!- Gregor has joined. 17:44:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split). 17:44:58 -!- ion has quit (*.net *.split). 17:44:58 -!- kmc has quit (*.net *.split). 17:45:19 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:45:19 -!- ion has joined. 17:45:19 -!- kmc has joined. 17:47:34 -!- sivoais_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:47:59 -!- sivoais has joined. 17:48:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:48:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:49:22 that netsplit made me learn something interesting: I'm on IPv6. 17:50:04 You have not known that before? 17:51:30 And how did the netsplit suddenly reveal it? 17:51:32 Can a computer's optical drive be sound-proofed? 17:51:40 no, it never dawned on me before. I usually connect to IRC in the morning before I had any coffee, so details like that tend to go unnoticed. 17:52:16 fizzie: because weechat shows the user@ip of persons that join/part. 17:52:19 -!- ssue has joined. 17:52:28 fizzie: --> | cuttlefish (~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:0:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765) a rejoint #esoteric 17:53:29 Ah, so it was someone "else's" rejoining. 17:53:59 Now I am the champion of the BBS boxing game 17:54:36 (I was 11th and am now champion) 17:54:47 Is there a prize? 17:55:35 I don't think so. 17:56:13 In the (now defunct) BBS system of a Finnish computer magazine, there was a "60 minutes per day" time limit, but you could win extra minutes in some of the games. (Though not in the "regular" games like LORD, I don't think; there was some lottery-like thing though where you could "pay" with minutes, and win minutes.) 17:56:16 go zzo38 17:56:40 This is X-BIT and it was defunct and one time but now it is back on. 17:57:16 (There was also a "time bank" that went up to... 240 minutes, maybe? Officially for long downloads. Can't get much more than a megabyte in an hour, after all.) 17:57:28 -!- sivoais has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:58:00 -!- sivoais has joined. 18:00:28 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:00:55 -!- sivoais has joined. 18:04:29 -!- derdon has joined. 18:08:12 If you need to download something you could use FTP; Synchronet does support a lot of protocols (Telnet, SSH, rlogin, FTP, HTTP, gopher, IRC, NNTP, SMTP, POP3, ...) 18:10:17 The computer magazine did make the file archives available over... at least HTTP and I think FTP too, later, when the Internet really came along. (They also offered a dial-up Internet connection, IIRC.) 18:12:09 the Stripe web security CTF thingy starts at the end of the hour 18:12:20 (unless you're in one of those weird non-integral-GMT-offset timezones) 18:12:27 https://stripe.com/blog 18:13:16 fizzie: MBnet!? 18:13:23 Lumpio-: Sure. 18:13:43 I think I used it exactly once 18:13:58 They had telnet access in the later years, right? 18:14:06 They did, yes. 18:14:13 The SModem-based "chat and download at the same thing" was, like, so futuristic. 18:14:21 I borrowed the user ID off a library copy of the magazine. 18:14:21 SModem itself is a Finnish invention, I think. 18:15:13 tbh it's pretty trivial to do if you just come up with a simple protocol on top of the raw teletype data 18:15:27 -!- sivoais has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:15:31 The fact that it took so long to invent says something about the laziness of BBS people. 18:15:34 Sure, but ZModem and the rest didn't do it. 18:15:37 And/or reluctance to change 18:15:55 -!- sivoais has joined. 18:16:06 -!- SimonRC has joined. 18:16:40 -!- ssue has quit (Changing host). 18:16:41 -!- ssue has joined. 18:16:55 It's also not completely trivial; at least ZModem isn't, I don't know about SModem. (There's a TCP-like sliding window ack thing and such.) 18:17:06 Telnet is the main protocol to access any modern Synchronet BBS, although there are other protocols too which may be enabled/disabled on some BBS. (Telnet can also be disabled although that would seem pretty useless.) 18:17:47 Well now we have internet, so you don't need that SModem if you can just make multiple connections, one to Telnet and one to FTP, or something like that 18:18:05 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 18:20:02 T R I V I A L 18:21:02 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:22:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:22:29 what ever happened to the word "easy", anyway 18:22:37 It was too easy. 18:22:45 kmc: Is it too short for some people? 18:22:51 Especially long people? 18:22:56 seems like 18:25:02 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 18:26:19 I tried in Haskell to make something like the Free monad but specify a monad transformer instead of a functor, so you could have (TransFree Codensity) and so on; (TransFree (ReaderT x)) seem to be similar like (Free ((->) x)) I think but some are different. What would you think of it? 18:27:47 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:30:24 data TransFree t x = TransPure x | TransFree (t (TransFree t) x); join (TransFree x) = TransFree (x >>= lift); 18:31:13 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Quit: brb). 18:31:33 -!- MoALTz has joined. 18:32:12 data TransCofree t x = TransCofree x (t (TransCofree t) x); duplicate (TransCofree x y) = TransCofree (TransCofree x y) (y =>> lower); 18:37:19 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:40:04 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:40:31 -!- kinoSi has joined. 18:49:07 kmc: I think trivial and easy mean different things ... something can be trivial but require loads of work, for instance 18:49:48 but trivial is nicer because it points out how stupid someone is for not knowing that something is trivial 18:49:56 yeah 18:50:01 to me it's become just a douchebag version of "easy" 18:50:21 and i don't like it when people describe conceptually simple but difficult-to-do things as "trivial" 18:50:53 basically i think "trivial" should mean "so incredibly simple that there isn't anything to say about it at all" 18:51:07 so when people say "trivial 100-line script" or "trivial one day project" it sounds like an absurd contradiction 18:51:11 but who am i to say what words should mean 18:51:49 i would be happy with the description of many programming tasks as "mathematically trivial" but that does not make them trivial to implement :) 18:52:25 getting psyched for this CTF 18:53:00 I generally only use "trivial" when talking about mathematics, using in the way it is used in mathematics 18:53:11 Such as a "trivial ring" or whatever 18:54:04 So in other words just because something is easy does not necessarily make it trivial, and vice versa 18:58:30 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:01:24 kmc: Looks like step 1 of the CTF is to DDoS their website. :-( 19:01:52 Oh, or maybe my connection was just being problematic. 19:04:46 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb). 19:23:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:37:43 -!- mtve has joined. 19:43:44 CTF? 19:46:30 https://stripe-ctf.com 19:48:01 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 19:55:41 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to NEEDMOAR. 19:55:49 -!- NEEDMOAR has changed nick to copumpkin. 19:57:57 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:04:00 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:04:44 * impomatic is trying to write a quine in Mouse 20:06:07 kmc: Bah, frustrating. 20:08:40 impomatic: What did you try so far? 20:09:06 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:12:04 I wonder what a Haskell quine looks like 20:12:07 * FreeFull looks it up 20:12:42 > ap(++)show"ap(++)show" 20:12:44 "ap(++)show\"ap(++)show\"" 20:13:41 zzo38: #f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"#f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"@ 20:14:17 zzo38: it almost works, apart from ! in a string is converted to a newline :-( 20:14:18 Yes that is one way to make a Haskell quine, without I/O. But the other way would be to do with I/O. 20:14:41 impomatic: Oops! Try without ! then? 20:14:48 putStrLn$ap(++)show"putStrLn$ap(++)show" 20:15:20 It need ! because !' is the code to output a character 20:15:40 shachaf: And then put main= to make it a entire program 20:15:57 impomatic: Maybe you need 33!' to make a exclamation mark output? 20:16:11 Does that work? 20:16:43 zzo38: that's what I'm trying, but it makes things even uglier! 20:17:03 Probably you have to anyways 20:18:23 Nothing beats a sh quine 20:18:26 Which is an empty file 20:18:52 that's also a C quine, for some dialects of C 20:19:05 But you have to make the quine program which is not empty file 20:24:27 In many programming language the empty program will also make no output ending successfully: Brainfuck, BASIC, INTERCAL, Forth, JavaScript, PHP, Perl, probably some others too. But, C, Haskell, they won't compile empty file. 20:41:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 20:41:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:42:03 -!- quintopia has changed nick to Guest1458. 20:43:29 -!- sivoais has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:44:01 -!- sivoais has joined. 20:50:36 so the empty program is a polyglot? 20:50:53 heh 20:51:15 the shortest polyglot 20:52:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 20:52:18 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:53:03 and a quine too in most cases probably 20:56:40 how can star trek enterprise have worse special effects than DS9? 21:02:26 olsner, I never thought DS9's effects looked all that bad TbH. 21:02:44 Phantom_Hoover: the point is that enterprise has worse effects 21:03:25 oh, and DS9 was randomly chosen because the first ENT episode had shape shifters 21:03:45 Please don't tell me they were Changelings. 21:04:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:04:32 no, they were sulivan or somesuch 21:04:37 iirc they never appear again 21:05:45 DualShock 9. 21:06:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: May contain nuts | elliott now constructible with compass and ruler | come to think of it, he was last year too, and the previous. but not the next | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:06:40 fizzie, that would just be a flat, controller-shaped touchscreen though. 21:06:59 otoh, there was only 2 years between DS9 and Enterprise... and Odo was a major character that they could spend some money getting right 21:07:32 playstation 9. teleport yours today. 21:07:56 the temporal console wars 21:08:10 olsner, there were 9 years between the first season of DS9 and Enterprise, though. 21:08:15 true 21:08:27 And Odo looked pretty decent even then. 21:08:55 maybe enterprise is just a lot cheaper? 21:09:28 -!- nooga has joined. 21:09:45 nooga: welcome to our complex plane 21:09:49 i guess it's set like 200 years earlier so maybe it was before the changelings had developed convincing morph animations 21:10:12 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:10:55 Every biiiiiiit is preeeeeecious! <-- if a bit is wasted... 21:11:10 another random note about enterprise: they actually mention curing cancer, I wonder if they mention cancer in any of the other series 21:12:15 it seemed to be considered trivial there ... not that star trek should care about that, but I think that cancer will never be quite trivial 21:12:29 Of course not, that would make the Federation something other than a perfect utopia where nothing goes wrong. 21:13:11 maybe it's so trivial they have forgotten that it existed at all, like us and yersina pestis 21:13:24 it seems almost impossible to cure all forms of cancer 21:13:32 it seems like an inevitable failure mode of self-reproducing systems 21:13:54 well we know that breast cancer has become a thing of the past by the time of memory alpha's writing 21:13:55 but you can prevent the most common instances of that failure mode 21:15:05 oerjan: speaking of complex plane, is there a UTF that involves complex numbers? 21:15:37 olsner: UTF-i, but it's imaginary. 21:15:39 no idea 21:17:05 Sgeo: Babies are made in China? <-- why would babies be the exception? 21:18:33 Speaking of babies, should I have some sort of a birth certificate of myself? Do people normally bother to own a copy? I mean, non-Presidents and so on. 21:19:18 i think i've seen mine, so it's presumably somewhere 21:19:27 I thought they only did the whole crtificate business in the US 21:19:47 We have them in the UK too, I think. 21:19:47 I put my trust the almighty government database 21:19:59 I'm in a computer somewhere, I must be 21:20:43 birth certificates are kinda useless, without any photo or other biometric data that can link the paper to you... 21:20:43 I don't think I've seen mine, but there's a reasonable possibility my mother has some kind of paper. 21:25:16 Apparently there's some kind of an extract you can get from the Population Register Centre that can sort of serve if someone abroad requires a "birth certificate". 21:25:38 Maybe I'll let the Database take care of it. 21:27:53 oh, if I'm correct about which document somehow corresponds to a birth certificate, I have seen it 21:29:23 you just enter your personal number and they mail a copy to you 21:29:53 The extract I mentioned costs 5 eur, so I don't think I'll bother getting a copy. 21:30:00 They can lose it just as well without my help. 21:30:09 i recall it had my birth time on it. 20 something, but i've forgotten the minutes. useful for getting a horoscope. 21:30:33 I don't know or remember what time it was, but I know that it was snowing 21:30:36 Oh, that'd be "useful". I've heard my time, but I can't remember it at all. 21:31:18 fizzie: you just say that because you're a capricorn. 21:31:45 I don't think I'm one of those. 21:32:05 o.O youtube now only shows my stuff that has been shared to me on google+ 21:32:29 instead of that "stuff you're likely to like" thing they used to do 21:33:29 I think I'm a pig, though. 21:33:35 In that Chinese thing. 21:33:36 you are indeed 21:37:41 Why is it that quite often these days I get "An error occurred. Please try again later." from youtube, either at start or just randomly in the middle of a video? (At least tha animated static behind the message is very nice.) 21:37:50 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:38:51 What was the command to get fungot's source again 21:38:52 did you know that corn flakes were originally intended to discourage masturbation? 21:38:52 Lumpio-: try 2 hav sm slep. din me nahi so payegi tu to 3 ko jana n waha pe links of ur competitor's sites to take it to god in prayer. b is an average i think... 21:39:04 fungot: help 21:39:05 Lumpio-: ya. exam over le... lol... 21:39:08 derp 21:39:13 ^source 21:39:14 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 21:39:19 ah. 21:39:26 Thanks. 21:39:26 fungot uses ^ as a prefix 21:39:27 olsner: shal i tel u d way u lik. sry for the late reply. was giving tuition. dinner very short onela, but nvm i rmb to send me a virtual hug? school got so much love. confirm nice one. there. emulsified. 21:39:47 there. emulsified. 21:39:48 'tis down! 21:40:40 -!- Cryovat has joined. 21:41:01 Lumpio- summoned me here 21:41:07 Greetings 21:41:14 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 21:41:27 Lumpio-: It'll get fixed as soon as the box sends a DHCP renew request the next time. (I *really* should puzzle out what on earth is up with that.) 21:42:04 You know, I get the same thing with my home cable connection. 21:42:26 From what I've been able to discern (it only does it randomly something like once a week so it's a bit hard to track down), 21:42:43 Lumpio-: This thing stays connectable-from-the-outside-world about 20-30 minutes, then things just... stop. And everything starts working perfectly right after the dhcp-renew. 21:42:43 It cuts the connection for just a few seconds and the DHCP lease also goes instantly stale. 21:42:59 It doesn't make a difference for connections from the inside out, though. 21:43:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 21:43:00 A renew fixes it. 21:43:11 I can reach the Internet just fine; it's just that the Internet can't reach me. 21:43:28 And another computer in the same switch is having no problems whatsoever, even though both have the same dhclient and etc. 21:43:30 Mine just drops off the Internet completely. 21:43:35 It's kinda bizarre. 21:43:42 Anyway, in the meanwhile, fungot source: http://sprunge.us/hGRJ 21:43:43 fizzie: dnt u tel ur feelngs 2 hr session. lol 21:44:03 Cryovat: Check it out 21:44:23 fungot: And you stop speaking like a SMS-age teenager, please. 21:44:24 fizzie: hw to send dis to al ur"valued frnds. always laughing is too simple... winning is tooo. haha meet at tpy first rply me i m cmng n bike one la i'm going school earlier to buybubble tea up his whole house... y da... gud nt 21:45:01 I don't think I want to know. 21:45:15 ^style 21:45:16 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube 21:45:20 ^style speeches 21:45:21 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 21:45:27 fungot: speech! 21:45:28 olsner: moral effects of. what you say may have far-reaching effects, hence the importance of careful forethought in the planning and preparation of your speeches. 21:46:09 fungot: speech! 21:46:09 olsner: i only allude to mr. fnord 21:47:33 yes, best not to do more than allude 21:47:56 Some of the books of "speeches" might actually be books about how to write speeches. 21:48:09 I think I just grepped the gutenberg database for "speech". 21:48:22 's peachy 21:48:50 That's terrifying 21:49:51 fizzie: Have you tried switching the ports the computers are connected to 21:50:08 fungot 21:50:10 FreeFull: thus much is certain: that the ages in which the true principles of philosophy were least understood were those in which taste has been most correct. it seems, a way of walking, a way as possible, into their elements, that he cannot know whether it is a very strange thing, and he examined it intently. " my wife has some relations in the presbyterian churches, and theatres, had found an asylum in the obscure dwelling w 21:50:58 FreeFull: Nnno, but it sounds very unlikely to do a thing. I mean, it's a very non-intelligent switch, non-manageable and so on. And it's specifically the DHCP renewal that fixes it; random (successful) traffic out doesn't help. 21:51:45 I think I'll need to verify the outgoing-connections thing, though, since that's an equally weird thing to work. 21:52:57 Apparently there was a DHCPREQUEST + DHCPACK five minutes ago, so I think it's working at the moment. 21:58:55 http://www.stephenfrysmoustache.com/ 22:00:45 * oerjan calls it a day 22:02:03 calling it a day only 45 seconds in? that's giving up a tad early 22:02:49 well "it" refers to the previous day, obviously 22:09:24 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:12:27 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 22:12:40 -!- cuttlefish has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:33:43 If you have if(Y=='#') A++; if(Y=='!') A--; then you could also do the same as if(Y>='#') A++; if(Y<='!') A--; and according some document that CPY should set the carry flag if greater or equal, then ADC add 1 if carry flag is set. Does GCC or LLVM have any kind of optimizations such as these? 22:42:26 Is Y guaranteed to be either # or ! 22:42:29 What if it's 'a' 22:47:38 If it is guaranteed to be either '#' or '!' then it works. 22:48:04 Well, it could also be '"' and still works. 22:49:15 LLVM does have a range metadata to indicate the range of a value loaded from memory. 22:51:54 > ['!'..'#'] 22:51:55 "!\"#" 23:29:44 -!- monqy has joined. 23:37:48 -!- Guest1458 has changed nick to quintopia. 23:37:55 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 23:37:55 -!- quintopia has joined.