00:01:43 <shachaf> Just saying hi to FireFly.
00:02:24 <shachaf> 17:01 <n00b6502> i prefer to say c/c++ because of the ability to overlap
00:21:40 <kmc> it's hard to keep track of all the different shootings in america these days
00:22:04 <kmc> seems like practically every day some guy fires a gun into a crowd to let off some steam
00:22:56 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-celebrates-full-week-without-deadly-mass-sh,29293/
00:33:02 <shachaf> Maybe I should quit #haskell.
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00:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> "A fired women's apparel designer shot dead a former colleague outside the Empire State Building in New York City before he was killed by police.
00:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Nine others were hit by bullets, some possibly fired by police, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said."
00:35:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Frankly hitting the right person at least 10% of the time is impressive for someone who couldn't even cut it as a women's apparel designer.
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00:37:33 <oerjan> good, good, we can't have clones wandering about in the channel.
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00:40:50 <kmc> you know i bet some of the best marks[wo]men in the world would be terrible at women's apparel designing
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00:47:02 <kmc> "Facebook just announced that Frank Gehry of Gehry Partners... will design a new 3,400 employee engineering campus connected to its current HQ by an underground tunnel."
00:47:06 <kmc> hahahahaha suckers
00:49:00 <kmc> he designed the Stata Center
00:49:00 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_and_Maria_Stata_Center
00:49:03 <kmc> (which shachaf has been inside)
00:49:18 <kmc> it's a cool looking building, but it sucks at those boringly pedestrian building tasks
00:49:24 <kmc> such as "keeping water on the outside of the building"
00:49:27 <kmc> and "being navigable"
00:51:18 <shachaf> The MIT campus is pretty nice.
00:51:38 <shachaf> I liked it more than most other university campuses I've seen.
00:51:38 <kmc> i saw a bunny behind stata once
00:51:42 <shachaf> Which is admittedly not that many.
00:51:51 <kmc> it's cool how it's integrated with urban Cambridge and by extension Boston
00:53:02 <kmc> most college campuses i've been to are more like their own little worlds
00:53:11 <kmc> though there's selection bias there
00:53:22 <shachaf> The Stanford campus especially.
00:53:32 <shachaf> Probably because it's so big.
00:53:34 <kmc> i mean, i have walked around NYU buildings a whole lot without thinking "oh, i'm at NYU"
00:55:18 <kmc> stanford's campus seems annoyingly large
00:55:29 <kmc> caltech's campus is nicely compact
00:55:43 <kmc> i have biked from one corner to the other in about 4 minutes (recklessly)
01:02:34 <shachaf> Did you read _Cat's Cradle_?
01:03:08 <Gregor> Bahaha, Oracle markets Solaris 11 as “The First Cloud OS”
01:28:12 <kmc> so (itidus21 mode engage) it's interesting that the global standard for distributing networked applications evolved from a system for distributing mere hypertext documents
01:28:30 <kmc> and in the meantime so many attempts at a deliberate standard for networked applications failed
01:28:40 <kmc> i wonder if there is any deep truth behind this or if it's just historical accident
01:30:18 <shachaf> I think most of those attempts were "before their time" in various ways.
01:30:30 <shachaf> Some technical and some social.
01:30:34 <kmc> java plugins failed and so now we have flash instead :(
01:30:47 <shachaf> Whereas distributing documents is something that people have always done and wanted.
01:30:53 <kmc> yes, i think so
01:31:27 <kmc> also the web's evolution means there was no particular point where some particular entity owned it, and could force bad technology to drive short-sighted business value
01:31:56 <shachaf> Yes. Did any of the "standards for networked applications" have that property?
01:32:11 <kmc> i don't know
01:32:16 <kmc> maybe i'm failing to come up with examples
01:32:26 <kmc> Java plugins are one (even if they piggybacked on the pre-application Web)
01:32:36 <shachaf> There was NeWS in the good old days.
01:32:39 <kmc> also the various proprietary online services like AOL
01:32:51 <kmc> i don't know about NeWS
01:32:53 <kmc> what is it?
01:33:24 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS
01:33:32 <shachaf> Like "AJAX" but with PostScript.
01:33:50 <shachaf> Server-side applications that delivered Display PostScript code to clients.
01:34:07 <shachaf> I've never used it or anything but I gather it was pretty nice, at least in theory.
01:34:25 <shachaf> I wonder whether PostScript is better or worse than HTML+CSS+JavaScript.
01:34:45 <shachaf> NeWS was in the 1980s, anyway.
01:35:17 <kmc> oh, right, i can wikipedia something even if i can't google it
01:36:50 <shachaf> I wonder what it wolud take to replace web applications these days.
01:37:06 <shachaf> I hope something does. :-(
01:38:05 <kmc> i think it's a pretty good outcome
01:38:08 <kmc> compared to the alternatives
01:38:17 <kmc> (real and hypothetical)
01:38:33 <kmc> even if you designed something to be what web apps today are, and beautifully elegant
01:38:41 <kmc> people would immediately start abusing it to do all kinds of other things
01:44:06 <shachaf> Se "FreeT" in edwardkese is "Stream" in GHCese.
01:44:39 <shachaf> kmc: It's true. I hate evolution sometimes. :-(
01:44:53 <shachaf> (In a general sense of the word.)
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01:45:32 <kmc> i think the web app stack is pretty sane compared to a lot of the things people have to deal with
01:45:36 <kmc> but ask me again in 6 months ;)
01:46:03 <shachaf> I guess everything people build abstractions on top of is pretty insane.
01:47:38 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/25885309@N02/2431709647/in/set-72157604661612578/lightbox/
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02:45:21 <zzo38> shachaf: I prefer "FreeT" (if it is the FreeT which I think of)
02:45:51 <shachaf> newtype Stream m a b = Stream { runStream :: m (Either b (a, Stream m a b)) }
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03:02:30 <zzo38> It is similar to the FreeT. In this case: type Stream m a = FreeT ((,) a) m
03:03:06 <shachaf> Wait, isn't Stream just = FreeT?
03:10:55 <zzo38> Is edwardk on? Mention these thing see what they would say.
03:11:12 <zzo38> That type Stream is not even the correct kind to be a monad transformer, though.
03:13:12 <shachaf> Oh, I guess it is FreeT of (,) or something.
03:16:26 <kmc> i love how in television and movies, any time a fire alarm goes off, the sprinklers go off too
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03:28:33 <zzo38> kmc: Make up a TV show that doesn't have sprinklers.
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03:52:34 <Sgeo> My computer freezes momentarily when I put headphones in. HOW IS THAT EVEN A THING THAT SOFTWARE NOTICES?
03:58:38 <kmc> why shouldn't it be? it is useful information
03:59:17 <kmc> for example, many phones will pause playback when you unplug your headphones
03:59:40 <kmc> this prevents the situation where the headphones fall out, it plays through the speaker, and now everyone in the room hears your shitty embarassing music
04:00:15 <kmc> also it is useful to have different volume settings for speaker and headphones
04:00:27 <kmc> (but that could be accomplished by sending both settings to the sound card, without the driver finding out which one is in use)
04:01:15 <kmc> my laptop has the headphone jack on the edge closest to my abdomen / crotch
04:01:26 <kmc> and my headphone plug sticks out several cm
04:01:30 <kmc> and this is annoying
04:13:31 <shachaf> GHC and "base" code uses a surprising number of type classes.
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04:58:24 <Sgeo> I don't like the m-lift macro in the moand library someone wrote for Clojure (corresponding to a liftM*). afaict in Clojure it doesn't need to be a macro, due to variadic functions
05:01:15 <zzo38> It doesn't even have to be a monad it can be applicative: liftA, liftA2, liftA3, etc. With a functor it has be one, but applicative it can be zero or more. (This was actually also my idea for a function in WizardCard; map(f,x...) where there can be exactly one x for functor and zero or more x for applicative. I intended WizardCard to compile into Haskell. However I might change some things since I may need help too)
05:03:31 <zzo38> So you could have liftA0 = pure
05:05:06 <shachaf> Or unit :: m () and (*) :: m a -> m b -> m (a,b)
05:06:18 <zzo38> Yes I have thought of those things too. Your (*) I have made for applicative, liftPair :: (f x, f y) -> f (x, y)
05:07:40 <shachaf> It's defined thus in the original Applicative paper.
05:07:47 <shachaf> Strong lax monoidal functors.
05:08:38 <zzo38> I have thought of to define applicative in terms of a endofunctor together with pure and liftPair for a tensor category.
05:09:15 <zzo38> Therefore applicatives can exist on tensor categories.
05:12:12 <zzo38> And then, depending on the category you may be able to make the applicative from any monad.
05:13:13 <zzo38> I do not think you can with any category, but you can with Haskell, and some other categories.
05:14:39 <zzo38> I believe you can make a backward applicative from applicatives in any category, though, if you define the product of the tensor category backward.
05:21:02 <Sgeo> I don't think anyone made applicative or functor stuff for Clojure at this point
05:21:16 <zzo38> Monads are meaningless without functors though
05:21:53 <zzo38> Since first you need a category, and you need endofunctors, and then add return and join to make a monad.
05:22:26 <Sgeo> Clojure has map, it's probably user-extendible, not sure if the various monad libraries do that
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07:54:39 <coppro> think of the funniest real-life thing that you've heard of
07:58:18 <coppro> (if you try to use the funniest thing without toning it down, people will be unable to suspend disbelief)
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08:49:15 <zzo38> I am trying to access http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4e1f782be5ba2841 but I hate this Google Groups it won't work can this Usenet message be accessed without a web page?
08:50:29 <nortti> ugh. the new google groups doesn't work with links2
08:52:31 <zzo38> Should they put a proper Usenet link?
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09:06:47 <Deewiant> zzo38: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4e1f782be5ba2841?dmode=source&output=gplain&noredirect ?
09:08:16 <nortti> zzo38: what browser are you using?
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09:16:56 <zzo38> That works although it looks like the email addresses in the header are cut off.
09:17:42 <Deewiant> That's probably to hide them from spambots; you need to answer a captcha on the HTML + JavaScript page to view them there.
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09:24:59 <Sgeo> o.O there's a new version of Factor
09:25:04 <Sgeo> Guess it's not dead yet
09:29:06 <Sgeo> Got a pop-up saying "Please respond with 4:05. This iPad promotion can be awarded to another visitor if you dont participate."
09:29:24 <Sgeo> Going to wait a bit before closing it, I want to see what happens when it times out
09:30:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, afaict, looks like it's going to go back to the original amount of time
09:33:14 <Sgeo> Went from 0:00 to 5:00.
09:33:32 <Sgeo> Who would do something like this, just go on the Internet and tell lies?
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09:34:46 <oerjan> if you respond you will be kidnapped and become a slave in their sweatshops. _after_ "giving" them your personal savings.
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11:10:55 <Sgeo> I appear to have started a flame war in #haskell
11:11:14 <monqy> @ask elliott <Sgeo> I appear to have started a flame war in #haskell
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11:39:33 <Sgeo> zzo38, probably referring to <Sgeo> I appear to have started a flame war in #haskell
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12:11:50 <Sgeo> ...I think I've checked that before
12:12:02 <lambdabot> liftM2 f m1 m2 = do { x1 <- m1; x2 <- m2; return (f x1 x2) }
12:13:03 <fizzie> @. pl undo do { x1 <- m1; x2 <- m2; return (f x1 x2) }
12:13:18 <fizzie> (I hope fungot didn't hear.)
12:13:20 <fungot> fizzie: ossian, character of the perfect historian is he in the ecclesiastical history of scotland. the parliament of the united states? is there a debt which had long slept a deep sleep, has been, a real alliance between the two indian members on the executive council, in charge of the criminals made such arrangements that the carriages reached tours at two in the morning, to st john's church, fnord fnord a cabinet so variousl
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12:17:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube
12:17:20 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
12:19:31 <fungot> FreeFull: ' did they hurt you?" she said, for a start we're going straight to the jelly.
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13:23:47 <Sgeo> Yay. I now have code under my name at github.
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13:56:16 <fungot> FreeFull: 27. file://localhost/ mnt/ space/ media/ books/ 1000+sci-fi%20books/%5bebooks%5d%201000+%20sciencefiction%20%26%20fantasy%20novels%20%28.lit%20forma/ pratchett%2c%20terry/ text/ 16/ fnord scale river trireme. every flat surface had been scrubbed. the fireplace had been fnord had been deserted to start with.
13:59:11 <fizzie> I see it has hit some dumped links.
13:59:20 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
13:59:26 <fizzie> fungot: What do you have to say to that?
13:59:29 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, because i believe in europe, that the european parliament to express its views to the council was to try to arrive at a common position to be able to reject the treaty may be used instead. ( parliament adopted the joint text. i shall not waste your time, but i wish to emphasize that we are fighting, we must now have this reform for 1999 before us in writing.
14:03:39 <fizzie> Let's reform like it's 1999.
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15:57:11 <kmc> how do i torrent things without getting busted
15:58:13 <kmc> how does it compare to Tor
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15:58:40 <AnotherTest> besides the fact that it's implemented in Java
15:58:57 <kmc> is it actually a problem that it's implemented in Java?
16:00:04 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Yeah, people who say things like that here tend to have... accidents.
16:00:04 <kmc> i don't currently torrent things
16:00:05 <Vorpal> btw, anyone know any good open source video editing programs? I need a bit more than just cut, such as tracking an object and using that as the center point (in order to stabilise the video).
16:00:12 <AnotherTest> my ISP lowers your bandwidth when you torrent
16:00:47 <kmc> C is great for network programming as long as you don't mind the fact that a tiny mistake will let attackers take over your entire machine
16:00:52 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: why does it need to be open source? or do you mean free?
16:00:57 <ion> vorpal: I don’t know of any good programs, but kdenlive seemed to suck less than the others when i tried a bunch of them the last time. It still sucked badly.
16:01:01 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, well, I prefer open source, but free is okay
16:01:08 <kmc> the usual response from C die-hards is that anyone who ever makes a mistake is an "idiot" and has a small penis
16:01:55 <kmc> also that managed languages are no safer because the compiler / VM might have a bug, anyway
16:01:59 <Vorpal> I have a couple of hours of unedited footage from a flight show.
16:02:12 <Vorpal> Definitely need to stabilise it by tracking the aircraft.
16:02:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've used Kino once, and it did that job, though I don't really have any points of reference to compare to, and don't know if it could do object-tracking like that. Possibly not, it seemed more oriented for just cutting and splicing things.
16:02:19 <kmc> to which I say, the kernel might also have a bug, does this mean all user software might as well run at ring 0
16:02:27 <kmc> they usually don't have a good response to that...
16:02:55 <kmc> Vorpal: if someone asked me to do that, I would probably write some custom software using OpenCV
16:03:01 <kmc> i have no idea if there's something more ready-made
16:03:07 <ion> I don’t think kdenlive had any tracking capabilities either. But i haven’t touched it for a long time either.
16:03:07 <kmc> how distinctive is the object?
16:03:18 <kmc> if it's, like, the only red thing, it might be easy to track
16:03:30 <ion> @google opencv
16:03:36 <kmc> it is a thing which can be googled
16:03:50 <Vorpal> don't* have time to do that
16:03:59 <Vorpal> and I know there are costly editing programs which can do what I need
16:04:07 <ion> Is don’t* a pointer?
16:04:11 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure there's ready-made software for the express purpose of automatically deshaking videos.
16:04:19 <fizzie> ion: It's a pointer to a don't.
16:04:29 <kmc> pointer to don
16:05:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw do you know if it is possible to dump every frame from a video easily? I think that could be used for panorama making in combination with a good video camera
16:05:07 <kmc> (reserved by POSIX)
16:05:17 <Vorpal> probably a lot faster than using a DSLR too.
16:05:17 <kmc> Vorpal: mplayer can do that
16:05:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: ffmpeg into 'blah%04d.png' or some-such.
16:05:29 <fizzie> mplayer can also do it, yes.
16:05:30 <kmc> mplayer -vo png
16:05:59 <ion> Btw: Hugin and Enblend are awesome for panoramas.
16:07:54 <Vorpal> I actually managed to get my phone to 47% charge after filming about 3 hours of max quality 1080p video. 11 GB of videos in total :D
16:07:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, I once made a "stabilised" bit of video by doing exactly that, then computing image orientations with panotools (autopano-sift points between consecutive frames), getting a smoothed spline approximation out of the yaw/pitch/roll to get a "camera track", and then doing the obvious remappings with nona to make it smooth.
16:08:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, and then importing it all back into a video?
16:08:28 <Vorpal> sounds kind of annoying
16:08:29 <fizzie> IIRC, it worked well enough for a proof-of-concept, though there were some issues.
16:08:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, not something I want to do on 3 hours of footage then...
16:09:49 <Vorpal> hm the sound clipped...
16:09:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Google claims Cinelerra (open-source video editor) has a bundled image stabilization plugin.
16:10:28 <Vorpal> non-linear video editor? Huh? What?
16:10:34 <fizzie> That's what they call them.
16:11:03 <fizzie> "-- system which can perform non-destructive editing on the source material. It is named in contrast to 20th century methods of linear video editing and film editing."
16:11:10 <fizzie> I've wondered about the name, too, sometimes.
16:12:29 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-linear_editing_system#Main_differences_between_linear_and_non-linear_editing
16:12:30 <Vorpal> oh and I have somewhere around 700-1 GB of raw images from my not-quite-DSLR
16:13:23 <kmc> there was an episode of _House_ filmed entirely with a DSLR
16:13:31 <fizzie> http://cinelerra.org/docs/cinelerra_cv_manual_en.html#SEC206 is the bit of a manual about the motion tracker.
16:13:42 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_Me_(House)
16:14:08 <Vorpal> kmc, well I don't have a fast enough CF card to film.
16:14:24 <fizzie> (14.4.33.6 is about the stabilization thing.)
16:17:33 <fizzie> Speaking of the video-panorama, I did a quick try for that, with the reasonably sucky video recording of the phone. It had a lot of parallax problems (handheld, and short distances), but it was good enough to get some kind of an overview. Also I just picked every N'th frame; I think it'd have improved things a lot to use some heuristic to select only "sharp" frames; some of the ones with a lot ...
16:17:40 <fizzie> ... of motion were really quite blurry.
16:19:37 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/videopano.jpg
16:19:53 <Lumpio-> videopano sounds like porn
16:20:00 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Only to Finns.
16:20:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, well my phone produces reasonably good 1080p video
16:20:59 <Vorpal> especially with the camera app mod that I have, which ups the bit rate
16:21:26 <Vorpal> still, I had big issues with auto focus, it is possible to set a focus but only after you started recording
16:21:42 <Vorpal> and that is "focus on where I click, and keep that focused"
16:22:41 <ion> fizzie: The image might have been nicer if you had added some “vertical line” control points..
16:23:01 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Lumpio-: Only to Finns. <-- oh?
16:23:40 <fizzie> ion: The sort-of-a-point was to have it work completely automatically.
16:24:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: "fi:pano" is a vulgarism for "A lay, a fuck, a session of sexual intercourse", to quote wiktionary.
16:24:56 <fizzie> (It's also a deposit to a bank account.)
16:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, remind me what the Finnish words for 'oxygen' and 'vulva' are.
16:31:31 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: oxygen -> 'happi', vulva -> 'häpy'. They do pronounce quite differently, though.
16:31:39 <kmc> http://blog.sendapatch.se/2010/february/this-might-seem-silly-git-pull.html
16:34:16 <fizzie> kmc: Fortunately, fi:pulla (we'd mangle "pull" -> "pullata" to make a verb) just means bun, which is relatively innocuous.
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16:41:05 <Vorpal> kmc, hm I was not aware that "pulla" meant that in Swedish.
16:42:26 <centrinia> You should probably avoid uttering words with the suffix "-ulla" in Swedish as a general rule.
16:42:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: The N900 default camera app records at 848x480@24fps and still manages to lag every now and then, at least when writing to built-in flash. Could be somewhat of a software thing. I've read someone getting stable 720p@25 video with the custom camera drivers, so I suppose it's mostly about encoding that in time (which the hardware acceleration should be able to handle, given proper ...
16:43:04 <fizzie> ... software) and storing it somewhere.
16:44:35 <FreeFull> "Die deutsche Bezeichnung Stickstoff erinnert daran, dass molekularer Stickstoff Flammen löscht („erstickt“) oder dass in reinem Stickstoff Lebewesen ersticken."
16:45:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I was writing to a class 10 64 GB MicroSD
16:45:07 <Vorpal> it should be pretty fast
16:46:07 <fizzie> Yeah, writing to a fast µSD might well work better than the built-in flash even with the default resolutions and camera drivers.
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16:57:22 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I'm really deficient when it comes to video recording. The phone does bad-quality 848x480@24 MPEG4 that lags; the various webcams have horrible picture quality; and the camera writes good-looking and smooth but low-resolution 640x480@30 weird Quicktime MJPEG files and has some sort of a maximum recording time instead of streaming to card.
16:59:51 <fizzie> (Even though the video bitrate is just 1.3MB/s and this card claims a 7.7MB/s write speed.)
17:03:24 <kmc> german element names are funny
17:03:33 <kmc> wasserstoff
17:05:25 <fizzie> I remember from some book or another that their rocket fuels had names of the "X-Stoff" kind.
17:05:49 <fizzie> Heh, Wikipedia has a "List of stoffs".
17:06:02 <fizzie> A, B, Br, C, K, M, N, R, S, SV, T and Z-Stoff.
17:06:22 <kmc> was that book Gravity's Rainbow?
17:06:30 <fizzie> No, I think it was My Tank Is Fight.
17:07:01 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Yeah, writing to a fast µSD might well work better than the built-in flash even with the default resolutions and camera drivers. <-- sure, but the built in one in the S3 should be pretty fast too
17:08:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know if it's a hardware or a driver-tuneup-firmware kind of an issue, but doing a lot of IO on the N900 internal flash manages to grind other things to horrible slowness.
17:08:44 <kmc> should i feel bad using the x <= y < z sugar in python
17:08:54 <Vorpal> kmc, what does that do?
17:09:02 <kmc> it's equivalent to (x <= y) and (y < z)
17:09:19 <Vorpal> interesting ternary operator
17:09:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a humorous name. It documents (in a funny way) some strange tank/plane/boat inventions from WW2.
17:09:56 <Vorpal> I'm surprised it works when parsing python though. Python is supposedly LL(1)
17:10:30 <kmc> unfortunately it works for any relational operator
17:10:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly it just parses as "(x <= y) < z" and has a special meaning.
17:10:37 <kmc> leading to nonsense like #4 on http://web.archive.org/web/20101009122154/http://web.mit.edu/rwbarton/www/python.html
17:10:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, "doing a lot of IO"... Does that include doing a lot of read IO?
17:11:11 <Vorpal> in the latter case, the system probably has a buffer that you fill then
17:11:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, I haven't investigated too much. At least the effect is a lot more noticeable when it comes to writes.
17:12:11 <fizzie> Anyway, I wouldn't mind slowing down the writing task so much, but it lags the UI and everything else too.
17:13:15 <zzo38> Nobody else has tried to beat me at Word Warp last month, nor this month.
17:14:28 <fizzie> They have been demotivated by your Word Warp prowess.
17:15:07 <zzo38> Actually the last time someone else did play (a few months ago), they did win by a few points.
17:15:15 <fizzie> Is it another of those BBS games?
17:20:13 <zzo38> The most recent messages posted to the local message boards seem to be last year, although a few people have posted on the wall recently, nobody has answered any questions I posted there.
17:22:56 <zzo38> They have access to alt.2600 and I posted a few message there but there seems to be none replies recently.
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17:24:12 <zzo38> If your ISP still receives messages from that newsgroup, then perhaps the BBS configuration is broken.
17:27:32 <zzo38> I also tried to send some messages to myself but hasn't seem to been received; perhaps automatic QWK runs only overnight, and then it will be sent properly?
17:52:09 <fizzie> Latest alt.2600 posts on my ISP have the title "aardvark payment?" and the latter has date "Sat, 25 Aug 2012 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT)".
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18:02:31 <zzo38> Is there anything I sent, on there? Or is that broken too?
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19:02:45 <Vorpal> Phew, just finished adding metadata to all images (which plane type and geotagging)
19:30:19 <fizzie> Is there a standard metadata for airplane types?
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19:32:52 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't know what it is that you sent. At least there seems to be nothing where the 'From:' fields contain the string 'zzo38', if my newsreader is to be believed.
19:33:59 <zzo38> Do any of them contain "xbit" or "x-bit"? Do any contain the FidoNet number for x-bit?
19:34:38 <zzo38> (The FidoNet number for x-bit is 1:340/10 and my user number is 39)
19:35:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, First photo uploaded: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kddhwd2j42bucz3/QgKbpICEy_ (I flew in one of those helicopters, cost 350 SEK for a tour lasting about 7 minutes)
19:35:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, I will add more to that album as I work through the photos.
19:36:03 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Is there a standard metadata for airplane types? <-- not that I know of
19:36:11 <fizzie> zzo38: I'm not sure how to search for that. I *think* slrn's "author search" looks at the From: header; at least if I search for 'afraid' I get people with email addresses with 'afraid.org' in them. That search does not find anything containing 'xbit', 'x-bit' or '340'.
19:36:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I was assuming some sort of an EXIF airplane tag.
19:36:52 <nortti> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19381098
19:37:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe there might be a IPTC one. It seems that my program ended up saving it in there
19:37:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Title: Robinson R-44 Clipper II"
19:37:40 <fizzie> No, I picked "download" and ran exiftool on it.
19:37:43 <Vorpal> anyway I just googled the registration to find the model for that one
19:39:10 <fizzie> It has your name in the "Copyright", "Rights", "Creator" and "Copyright Notice" fields.
19:39:39 <zzo38> I have tried to send some messages to the system operator but it seem they have not received them.
19:40:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just put it in in "author" in the program
19:41:08 <fizzie> I suppose it tries to put it in everything that's commonly used.
19:41:26 <kmc> nortti: :(
19:41:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the file say which program was used?
19:42:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: It reports "DiMAGE A2 Ver.1.13" as the "Creator Tool", and "Adobe XMP Core 5.3-c011 66.145661, 2012/02/06-14:56:27" as the "XMP Toolkit". (Some of these names might be exiftool-specific for all I know.)
19:42:37 <Vorpal> DiMage A2 is the camera
19:42:49 <Vorpal> as for the second, hm interesting
19:43:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: And "Microsoft Corporation" as the "Primary Platform", whatever that means.
19:43:21 <Vorpal> well I was booted into windows when I did it
19:43:29 <Vorpal> I shot the photo as RAW (12 bits per channel) and in the AdobeRGB as the colour space
19:44:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I presume it has a colour profile embedded too?
19:45:00 <fizzie> Mhm, the jpeg has a "IEC 61966-2.1 Default RGB colour space - sRGB" Device Model Desc, and a "sRGB" Device Model, and then quite a few numbers.
19:45:11 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/IROZ <- exiftool output.
19:45:56 <Vorpal> it stripped all the EXIF data though it seems
19:46:08 <fizzie> Yes, not much about the camera in there.
19:46:15 <fizzie> At least reported by this thing.
19:47:21 <fizzie> exiv2 (the other command-line EXIF tool I have) just says http://sprunge.us/FZSC which is pretty sparse.
19:47:24 <Vorpal> "Profile Copyright : Copyright (c) 1998 Hewlett-Packard Company"
19:47:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, aww, it can't read IPTC (or you need to use an option for that)
19:48:17 <fizzie> Maybe it needs an option, the man page does mention IPTC.
19:48:18 <Vorpal> "Technology : Cathode Ray Tube Display" <-- really?
19:48:35 <fizzie> Ah, it defaults to a "summary" mode.
19:49:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, as for the program I used, it was Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CS6 + Adobe Photoshop CS6. Because Gimp fails at more than 8 bits per channel.
19:50:03 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hPDj <- 'exiv2 -p a' which should print all of Exif, IPTC and XMP.
19:50:13 <fizzie> It's a lot shorter than the exiftool output, still.
19:50:28 <Vorpal> nothing about profiles there for examp
19:51:20 <Vorpal> anyway the exif data would not make sense since I cropped the picture.
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19:52:46 <zzo38> If you need more than 8 bits per channel you could use ImageMagick Q16.
19:52:53 <fizzie> I was under the impression that Gimp was finally (at least close to) getting the high-depth cases right.
19:53:15 <fizzie> Apparently the current 2.9 devel branch does it.
19:53:30 <fizzie> "After 3.5 years of blood, sweat and tears the GIMP team announced the release of GIMP 2.8. But good things come in pairs.
19:53:33 <fizzie> The new stable version features improvements in almost all aspects: UI, tools, painting features, resources. A detailed review is in works, for now please have a look at the official release notes.
19:53:37 <fizzie> Now, the even better news is that since few days internal pipeline of the development version can work in 16bit and 32bit per color channel mode, both integer and float. This finally makes high bit depth precision available and opens up high dynamic range imaging for GIMP."
19:53:43 <Vorpal> also I'm debating if I want to remove the lens distortion or not on this image. The barrel effect is quite fitting in this case...
19:53:46 <fizzie> Maybe will take them a while to actually get it out.
19:53:59 <Vorpal> (I created a profile for my camera and lens in the fancy adobe tool)
19:54:26 <fizzie> I've heard Lightroom is pretty fancy.
19:54:36 <Vorpal> very good for organizing and tagging stuff
19:54:51 <Vorpal> like the geotagging by built in google maps thingy
19:57:10 <fizzie> I've tagged a few datasets by having the N900 record a .gpx track, and then using 'gpscorrelate' on a pile of files from the camera. (It reads a .gpx file, EXIF timestamps from images, and then fills the EXIF geotags by correlating between the .gpx track timestamps and the photos.)
19:58:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, uploading another one
19:58:23 <fizzie> (Except I never remember to sync the camera clock with the GPS time beforehand, so I have to fiddle in an offset.)
19:58:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, and that would work yeah, I wonder if I can make one of those files on android. Probably
19:58:55 <Vorpal> would drain battery though
19:59:33 <fizzie> Probably; GPX is kind of the de-facto standard interchange format. (And anyway gpsbabel translates between everything that can store a track.)
19:59:53 <Sgeo> Neil Armstrong's dead :(
20:00:07 <fizzie> I have a separate Garmin Geko 201-or-something GPS receiver, I've gotten some tracks from that too. Has the benefit of not draining the phone battery.
20:00:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kddhwd2j42bucz3/QgKbpICEy_
20:00:39 <olsner> Sgeo: died on the moon along with the rest of the Apollo 13 crew?
20:00:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, I feel that the slight-fisheye effect and the vignetting added to the second image
20:01:01 <Vorpal> it was just too sterile otherwise
20:01:19 <Vorpal> there are some reflections from the window on the right
20:01:43 <fizzie> Yeah, I was just in the process of typing: Very slight window reflections, I see you weren't hanging out of the door of the chopper. :p
20:02:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't think I would have been allowed that
20:03:18 <Vorpal> hm this is a nice image of a gyrocopter...
20:04:44 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Fortunately, Lance Armstrong is still going strong. (Well, except for... you know.)
20:05:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, ufraw can't remove TCA can it? I guess hugin can but meh
20:06:15 <zzo38> Hold second one as you hold a pencil.
20:06:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'd guesstimate that it can't.
20:07:52 <kmc> hm do i want this ThinkPad X1 Carbon
20:08:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: dcraw seems to have a thing that just enlarges the red/blue layers that you can use for ad-hoc chromatic aberration correction, but that sounds slightly fiddly.
20:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> "In 1972, Armstrong was welcomed into the town of Langholm, Scotland, the traditional seat of Clan Armstrong; he was made the first freeman of the burgh, and happily declared the town his home.[108] The Justice of the Peace read from an unrepealed 400-year-old law that required him to hang any Armstrong found in the town.[109]"
20:10:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, new photo up, this one should have a lot more metadata
20:12:19 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Neil Armstrong's dead :( <-- darn i was just earlier today wondering if he was still alive when talking with a friend
20:12:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, well? Analysed that yet?
20:12:48 <oerjan> we were doing a quiz where he was the answer :(
20:13:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://hugin.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/Tca_correct.html has an example of how to run the standalone hugin "tca_correct" and then pick the parameters into dcraw. Though I'm not sure how sensible that'd be since the 'fulla' tool has more degrees of freedom.
20:13:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, was the question "is Neil Armstrong still alive"?
20:14:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/WELZ - yeah, that's quite a lot more stuffs.
20:14:04 <Vorpal> History Software Agent : Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4.1 (Windows), Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 7.1 (Windows), Adobe Photoshop CS6 (Windows), Adobe Photoshop CS6 (Windows), Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 7.1, Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 7.1 (Windows) <-- huh? It added camera raw several times
20:14:09 <olsner> hurr, "temporal cold war" :(
20:14:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some sort of multi-stage process and it tags one every time it does a thing? :p
20:14:59 <oerjan> no. it was about who made a book in 2005 or thereabouts, and he was an obvious candidate if alive
20:15:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah except there weren't quite that many stages :P
20:15:18 <fizzie> "History Action: saved, derived, saved, saved, converted, derived, saved, saved, saved"
20:15:24 <fizzie> That's a well-saved file.
20:15:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, it went lightroom -> camera raw -> photoshop -> (in photoshop): save for web
20:16:07 <Vorpal> oh yeah I cropped it a bit in photoshop too
20:16:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm looks like it excluded the vendor specific block?
20:16:45 <Vorpal> my camera tends to have a LOT of stuff in that
20:16:46 <fizzie> Well, from the timestamps, the two last stages happened during the same second, as did the two before that.
20:16:54 <fizzie> Possibly didn't know how to decode it.
20:16:57 <Vorpal> it had timestamps too!
20:17:17 <fizzie> Though it usually says if it doesn't know how to read some MakerNotes things.
20:17:21 <fizzie> I get that for N900 pics.
20:17:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know either exiftool or exiv2 can decode it... Maybe photoshop can't?
20:17:55 <fizzie> Perhaps that's where it fell off. Though it *could* just copy it forward.
20:18:03 <oerjan> oh right the book was "First man" (the quiz theme was "first and last")
20:18:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, ufraw copies it forward. But it doesn't handle the endianness properly
20:18:41 <Vorpal> so if you save as tiff it should byteswap it compared to the mrw raw file, but it doesn't
20:19:21 <fizzie> "Warning: [minor] Unrecognized MakerNotes" is what exiftool says on a N900 pic. Don't know if there's anything especially interesting in there, probably not.
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20:21:32 <fizzie> Also, there's something missing in the N900 EXIF metadata, because Hugin asks for a manual FOV entry, while for the camera picks it deduces it from the metadata.
20:21:57 <fizzie> (Well, FOV or the focal length multiplier, but anyway.)
20:23:05 <fizzie> Both images have the "Focal Length" tag as reported by exiftool, but the N900 one is missing the "Focal Length In 35mm Format", maybe that's it.
20:23:28 <fizzie> And the "Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent" for that matter.
20:23:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, it does that for my phone camera too
20:24:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, example exiftool -v output http://sprunge.us/Xigb showing which info is from the maker notes
20:24:38 <Vorpal> (quite a bit, though some is duplicated)
20:26:13 <fizzie> exiftool -v for my camera: http://sprunge.us/GcHO
20:26:24 <fizzie> It has all the most useful fields, like BabyAge.
20:27:02 <fizzie> There's some sort of a baby photography mode.
20:27:06 <fizzie> I've only seen it in the manual.
20:27:14 <fizzie> I don't really recall what it was all about.
20:27:18 <Vorpal> and it guesses their age?
20:27:26 <fizzie> No, you enter the date of birth.
20:27:34 <fizzie> Then it records the age in the image, or something.
20:27:44 <fizzie> I don't really remember what the point was, if there even was one.
20:28:01 <Vorpal> well if 9999:99:99 means "no data", then they selected a stupid date... The camera is not future proof
20:28:14 <Vorpal> would have been better to go for a date far in the past
20:28:27 <fizzie> Yeah, it'll fail when it comes to the 99th day of the 99th month.
20:28:29 <Vorpal> or even out of band metadata
20:28:46 <Vorpal> fizzie oh come on, the earth's rotation slows down over time
20:28:59 <Vorpal> hm actually, that would go the other way
20:29:06 <fizzie> I have the PDF manual, let's see what the babies were all about.
20:29:12 <fizzie> There's BABY 1, BABY 2 and PET modes.
20:29:18 <kmc> this thing is basically the ThinkPad Air
20:29:21 <fizzie> I'm guessing they all use the BabyAge.
20:29:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do they do?
20:30:14 <kmc> ThinkPad X1 Carbon
20:31:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently the main thing they do is that after you've set the dates of birth for your BABY 1, BABY 2 and PET, then images taken with that mode active will show the age of the thing in question when browsing with the camera (and maybe with Panasonic's software?). But the BABY 1/BABY 2 modes do also "take pictures of a baby with a healthy complexion", plus it dials down the flash power.
20:32:26 <fizzie> "The age can also be printed on each picture by using the software [LUMIX Simple Viewer] or [PHOTOfunSTUDIO-viewer-] in the CD-ROM (supplied)."
20:32:35 <fizzie> Also PHOTOfunSTUDIO is possibly the stupidest name.
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20:34:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least my phone camera has a slightly useful gimmick... Face recognition. It shows a yellow box around the detected face in the gallery, then it lets you set who that is. And based on previous selections it even (moderately successfully) suggests names when tagging.
20:34:58 <Vorpal> Oh and it asks if you want to use that image as the profile picture for that contact every time you tag.
20:35:00 <fizzie> There's also a "TravelDay" field set to 65535, I see. That's probably some other silly mode that shows you which day of your vacation it is.
20:35:12 <fizzie> Don't have face detection here, but I've heard they've been putting that in.
20:36:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least my proper camera only have the usual portrait/sport/landscape/night gimmick modes
20:36:42 <fizzie> This one has quite a few.
20:37:18 <Vorpal> personally I just use mostly auto, auto shutter, auto time and full manual modes. There is also a second auto mode, that is even more auto than plain auto
20:37:37 <fizzie> The "Scene mode" (i.e. gimmick mode) has: portrait, soft skin, scenery, sports, panning, night portrait, night scenery, food, party, candle light, baby 1, baby 2, pet, sunset, high sens., starry sky, fireworks, beach, snow, aerial photo.
20:38:17 <Vorpal> what do they do? (Apart from the utterly silly baby and pet ones)
20:38:22 <Vorpal> just different tinting and such?
20:38:30 <kmc> does it have hipster 1970's camera mode
20:38:40 <Vorpal> kmc, what does that look like?
20:38:43 <fizzie> Probably not much. I'll check, but the manual probably doesn't go into too much detail.
20:38:49 <kmc> it looks like instagram
20:39:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "smooth skin" mode for example actually does some skin blurring. Since it warns: "If a part of the background etc. is a color close to skin color, this part is also smoothed."
20:40:24 <fizzie> Other than that, they mostly seem to tweak the automatics when it comes to shutter, aperture, WB and such.
20:40:25 <kmc> does it also blur black people
20:40:33 <fizzie> At least I assume so, it doesn't actually say.
20:40:48 <kmc> does it have a mode to automatically pixellate genitalia
20:41:05 <fizzie> Oh, and "high sens." mode goes up to ISO 3200 by decreasing the resolution.
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20:41:45 <fizzie> Incidentally, the "more auto than auto" mode this camera also has is pretty much useless, since it's an "intelligent ISO" mode, and the "intelligent" seems to be a synonym for "high", and the sensor's really very noisy for anything >100, esp. >=400.
20:41:59 <fizzie> At least in auto mode one can lock that, or give a maximum value.
20:43:22 <fizzie> Fireworks mode, sadly, won't actually do any kind of "look at fireworksy thing in the live preview", you'll still have to self know when to press the shutter key.
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20:43:52 <fizzie> From what I've heard, modern cameras can go even sillier when it comes to special effects.
20:44:15 <fizzie> Mine doesn't even do the sepia tone thing, which I think is almost standard now for the "pocket" cameras.
20:44:32 <fizzie> They also have the "one part of the image in color, everything else in black-and-white" trick built-in.
20:45:32 <fizzie> Beach mode's warnings: "* Do not touch the camera with wet hands. * Sand or seawater will cause the camera to malfunction. Make sure that sand or seawater does not get into the lens or the terminals. * Problems caused by sand or seawater are not covered by the product warranty." :p
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20:46:07 <fizzie> And for aerial photo mode: "When using the camera, follow all instructions from the cabin crew."
20:46:18 <fizzie> I guess they couldn't resist adding some common sense in the manual too.
20:46:34 <fizzie> At least it doesn't say "don't drop the camera out of the plane".
20:47:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, another one done soon
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20:48:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, another one up
20:49:07 <fizzie> I think I'll just look at this one, instead of digging into the metadata. :p
20:49:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah it is pretty stripped
20:49:29 <fizzie> Though it's a bit of a shame that Dropbox's album thing doesn't show the title anywhere.
20:49:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe you had those in Finland too?
20:50:09 <Vorpal> or was it J 35 Lansen you had?
20:50:17 <Vorpal> one of the two I think
20:51:01 <fizzie> 35 Draken's infobox lists "Finnish Air Force" as one of the "Primary users".
20:51:36 <fizzie> I don't really know about this stuff; though my wife's brothers are very enthusiastic about trains and planes and such.
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20:52:14 <fizzie> I just know they've bought the US Hornets, and that only because the papers were full about the debates on whether that's worth the money.
20:53:07 <fizzie> (This was a reasonably recent thing.)
20:53:45 <fizzie> Also there was a recent headling about the Americans messing up some paperwork on a missile order for the F-18's.
20:54:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might want to watch the videos when I get around to them. I wonder where I would upload those. Youtube comes to mind but hrrm.
20:55:30 <Vorpal> anyway that is a lot of editing ahead to get something usable out of that
21:00:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, was it worth the money?
21:00:58 <fizzie> I have no clue, just that people had different opinions on that.
21:01:10 <fizzie> They weren't exactly cheap, I remember that much.
21:02:11 <fizzie> 3.16 billion euros, apparently.
21:02:30 <fizzie> The whole order, I think.
21:02:53 <fizzie> 3.16 billion times 64 sounds a bit too much. :p
21:03:39 <fizzie> Also 1.625 billion euros for the current update/upgrade order they have going.
21:03:57 <fizzie> (I think this involves the missiles with the missing paperwork.)
21:05:19 <fizzie> Apparently the per-plane price was something like 25 million EUR.
21:08:02 <fizzie> But they have a lot of "closing down locations and laying off 2200 people" savings plans happening, so people are commenting on the rationality of doing that while at the same time putting 1.6 billion to the Hornet upgrade.
21:09:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, another one uploaded (J 32 Lansen, the model before J 35 Draken, that you guys had): https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kddhwd2j42bucz3/QgKbpICEy_#f:lansen1.jpg
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21:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, at least it's not as bad as the UK military deciding to pay for an aircraft carrier by not building any more planes.
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22:36:14 <zzo38> Do you know if just intonation results in a better (or worse) audio compression than equal temperament?
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22:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> "Smoking cessation (colloquially quitting smoking) is the process of discontinuing the practice of inhaling a smoked substance." -- WP
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23:14:48 <kmc> medical literature
23:15:03 <kmc> and phrases like "smoking cessation aid" rather than "quitting smoking aid"
23:24:35 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, at least it's not as bad as the UK military deciding to pay for an aircraft carrier by not building any more planes. <-- they did that?
23:25:19 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Does anyone not call it 'quitting smoking'. <-- whoever wrote that text you quoted?
23:26:13 <Vorpal> indeed, but somewhere a person wrote that line of text
23:27:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Re aircraft carriers, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11570593
23:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "Axing the Harrier and Ark Royal means no planes will be able to fly from British aircraft carriers until 2019.
23:28:35 <shachaf> zzo38: I would imagine that it doesn't make a difference if you're talking about the recording of any actual instrument.
23:29:04 <shachaf> Unless you're comparing across instruments, in which case it's a bit of a silly comparison anyway.
23:30:42 <oerjan> Vorpal: i just tried to look up "polarn" and "pyret" in wiktionary, i only found the former means "the buddy" in swedish, but what does the latter mean?
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23:31:15 <oerjan> darn he just said good night
23:31:32 <oerjan> olsner doesn't look awake either :(
23:32:08 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
23:35:11 <oerjan> 'So what does “Polarn O. Pyret” actually mean? Well it means “Buddy and the little one” in Swedish [...]'
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23:49:38 <kmc> maybe it's not completely nonsensical
23:49:46 <kmc> maybe it's easier to buy or build planes quickly in an emergency
23:50:42 * oerjan ponders this, watching the pigs fly by
23:52:28 <kmc> watching for pigs on the wing?
23:52:58 <zzo38> shachaf: But what if it is music programmed by computer?
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