00:00:46 -!- newsham has left.
00:00:49 -!- Braber01 has joined.
00:01:05 <kmc> what does a contrast spec like "DC 2,000,000:1 (1000:1)" even mean?
00:01:06 <HackEgo> Braber01: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:01:13 <kmc> does it mean "here is a made up number and the real contrast is 1000:1"
00:01:19 <Braber01> Are All brainfuck interperters Diffret? I think I might be reading the Table wrong too.
00:01:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq_> oerjan: "We accurately display both the brightness of 0k and the sun!"
00:01:44 <oerjan> Braber01: which table?
00:02:02 <Braber01> ASCII table that's the one i need to use right?
00:02:12 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes it would. :D
00:02:28 <oerjan> Braber01: please give a link
00:02:34 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Hence why I named only the smallest and largest points in the range, not the ratio.
00:02:35 <zzo38> Braber01: I do not understand what you mean
00:02:43 -!- elliott has joined.
00:02:44 <Braber01> http://duckduckgo.com/?t=lm&q=ASCII+table this.
00:02:47 <zzo38> Use the ASCII table for what purpose?
00:03:17 <Braber01> to find the decimal value of a letter
00:03:23 <zzo38> Braber01: That ASCII table is OK, yes.
00:03:25 -!- Braber01 has changed nick to BraberAFK.
00:03:26 <elliott> Braber01: ASCII table? I don't know the context, but you should have basically ~no use for one of those in 2012.
00:03:30 <zzo38> Brainfuck does normally use ASCII.
00:03:37 <kmc> elliott: uh
00:03:50 <elliott> Huh? No, brainfuck deals in 8-bit-binary-except-you-can't-input-the-NUL-byte.
00:04:17 <elliott> kmc: Well, rephrase: "if you think you want an ASCII table, there's a very high probability you're wrong; if you're not wrong, then you probably don't need to ask any questions about it, or whatever".
00:04:27 <zzo38> Actually you can input the NUL byte, but there isn't a way to distinguish EOF from whatever value is used for indicating EOF.
00:04:28 <pikhq_> Except for greater-than-8-bit Brainfuck, which instead deals in nobody-implements-that. :)
00:04:33 <elliott> kmc: Double rephrase: in an ideal world, you'd have no use for one. :(
00:04:35 <kmc> elliott: i mean, i use "man ascii" pretty often
00:04:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, how else are you meant to get a quick reference for ASCII?
00:05:02 <monqy> elliott: visiting #esoteric? what's the occasion
00:05:06 <elliott> kmc: Well, OK. But presumably in the context of using it as a subset-of-Unicode table. (Can we have "man unicodetable"?)
00:05:09 <kmc> if you want to call it a table of the first 128 Unicode characters and their UTF-8 encodings, rather than an ASCII table, sure
00:05:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's the "ASCII" bit that's the problem.
00:05:34 <kmc> no but you can have "man iso-8859-1" :(
00:05:49 <pikhq_> 16-bit Brainfuck works decently if you let EOF=-1 and read bytes, for instance...
00:06:04 <pikhq_> Some Brainfuck programs will even work there.
00:06:06 <elliott> 16-bit brainfuck is ugly. So is EOF-as-0 brainfuck. So is EOF-as-unchanging brainfuck.
00:06:14 <elliott> Spoiler: there is no non-ugly brainfuck IO scheme!!
00:06:27 <kmc> i stick to ASCII so that i can use ISO 2022 to map line drawing characters into the upper half of byte space </troll>
00:06:30 <elliott> (But just use 8-bit-and-EOF-as-0, because everyone else does, except for the people who don't, but they're wrong.)
00:06:35 <pikhq_> Though none that I write; if I'm doing Brainfuck, I'm using the mod-2^8-1 arithmetic for all it's worth. >:D
00:06:36 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes that does work. And, if the input is known 7-bit ASCII and using 8-bit cells then you could use 255 for EOF.
00:06:49 <zzo38> But the input might not be 7-bit ASCII, it might be 8-bit input instead.
00:06:53 <elliott> kmc: man iso-8859-1 upsets me.
00:06:55 -!- Nisstyre_ has joined.
00:07:03 <elliott> kmc: It doesn't even have a deprecation warning or a BUGS section.
00:07:20 <kmc> obviously you should use 0x03 or 0x04 for EOF
00:07:32 <oerjan> BraberAFK: brainfuck doesn't really care about character codes, it just uses binary except for that EOF problem. for example the brainfuck bots in this channel should work best if you use utf-8, since that's the recommended character set for this irc channel.
00:07:53 <zzo38> Yes you could use the end of transmission code just to indicate the end of transmission if your input only has one transmission.
00:07:56 <elliott> oerjan: Hey, can you use your wiki admin powers to block cpressey for reminding me of the featured language thing?
00:08:06 -!- BraberAFK has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
00:08:17 <oerjan> elliott: sure, sure, as soon as i get them
00:08:28 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Block/Chris_Pressey
00:09:50 <zzo38> I don't really like ISO 8859-1; I prefer CP437.
00:10:29 <elliott> I was told there was newsham.
00:10:59 <elliott> kmc doesn't count, he's just an old sham.
00:11:04 <zzo38> I think there seem to be some problem using CP437 with Linux, but I made up a program to allow the full CP437 character set used with Linux, in addition to the shift-in/shift-out codes also work
00:11:06 <elliott> kmc: (the joke is you are old)
00:11:12 <oerjan> elliott: gosh darn it there seems to be a bug preventing me.
00:11:25 <elliott> oerjan: Huh. I'm going to block you for exploiting a bug, then.
00:11:40 <kmc> zzo38: in the Linux VT?
00:11:43 <kmc> how does this program work?
00:11:54 <pikhq_> zzo38: Well, I suppose if you're going to use an 8-bit encoding, you might as well use the classic one. :P
00:11:55 <monqy> apparently newsham left
00:12:03 <monqy> i didn't know he was even here
00:12:13 <monqy> but then how could he have left
00:12:35 <zzo38> kmc: Yes. The program works by loading stuff using the character encoding files, setting environment variables, and setting escape codes.
00:12:37 <elliott> monqy: that's a really good poem
00:13:09 <HackEgo> 471) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
00:13:25 <kmc> sadly "iconv -f cp437" does not have the graphical renderings for 0x00 - 0x1F
00:13:32 <kmc> elliott: no, but i've looked through the language docs here and there
00:13:46 <zzo38> kmc: I know; but my program fixes that so that you can use all of the graphical renderings.
00:13:52 <kmc> zzo38: I guess there is an ioctl() to set the console font?
00:13:56 <elliott> kmc: That's what "know" means, silly.
00:14:05 <elliott> monqy: remember when you said funny things like that
00:14:33 <zzo38> kmc: Maybe there is; I don't know. I am using a shell script (it must be loaded with . rather than as an executable file).
00:15:06 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/backup/load_mzx_ascii http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/backup/newunimap.1
00:15:36 <kmc> what do the escape codes do?
00:15:52 <zzo38> kmc: Read the manual page
00:16:57 <zzo38> You will also need the file called "mzx_ascii.chr", you can get it in http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip do a list before extracting it to find the directory it is in and extract the single file called "mzx_ascii.chr" from there.
00:17:07 <elliott> kmc: Anyway, tell me about Rust.
00:17:27 <monqy> i remember glancing at the rust docs
00:17:28 <zzo38> The file "mzx_ascii.chr" appears to be in the root directory of the archive.
00:17:32 <monqy> I don't rmeember anything about the rust docs
00:17:38 <monqy> just that i glanced at them
00:17:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it reminds me a bit of NSQX
00:18:35 <elliott> excuse me, NSQX was an artist
00:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the ultimate in heaping worthless bloat onto Brainfuck.
00:18:45 <monqy> uniCode "at least it's not a brainfuck derivative"
00:18:54 <elliott> `pastlog no quality any ?more
00:19:25 <HackEgo> 2012-04-10.txt:11:55:58: * NSQX thinks there is no quality anymore
00:19:49 <elliott> He knows the pain of bad esolangs.
00:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, do i have administrative permission to make snide comments on mauriceling's talk page
00:21:00 -!- BraberAFK has joined.
00:22:31 <oerjan> wait didn't you already make some
00:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> As it turns out that was on his mainspace article's talk page.
00:24:22 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
00:24:24 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
00:24:34 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: actually the snide comment on Talk:Ragaraja is ehird's
00:26:01 <elliott> I told you to tell me about Rust and then I said "if you want to" and now I'm frowning.
00:26:03 <elliott> oerjan: That wasn't snide!
00:26:07 <elliott> oerjan: I actually honestly had no idea if it was a joke or not.
00:26:12 <kmc> you should just read the docs
00:26:14 <elliott> oerjan: It had no commands at the time.
00:27:09 <elliott> kmc: But, you know, if you take "k", go five letters left on a QWERTY keyboard, press down, then go to "m", go up-right twice, press down, and then finally to go "c" and press it, and then press "s", you get "docs".
00:27:23 <elliott> kmc: So I think by "read the docs" you mean "ask me".
00:27:36 -!- BraberAFK has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:27:46 <oerjan> argument by keyboard metric
00:29:12 -!- Braber01 has joined.
00:29:43 <Braber01> Sorry about that One of the new interfaces in Linux isn't working well.
00:30:14 <Braber01> to make a loop in bf. you would do someting like +++++[+>+++++<-] right?
00:30:24 <oerjan> Braber01: i suddenly realize that your problem is probably not really the ASCII table, since even if it's slightly inaccurate you'd probably be able to work with it...
00:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that loop is infinite, you probably meant something else.
00:31:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: only with bignums
00:31:46 <oerjan> ^bf +++++[+>+++++<-]>.
00:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, nope, the cell used for testing the loop is unchanged by the loop body.
00:32:03 <Braber01> yeah, I'm a little confused on the syntax for loops it's been a long time since I worked with brain***
00:32:14 <kmc> you can say "fuck" here
00:32:34 <monqy> stop saying fuck!!!!!!!
00:32:51 <elliott> look what you have done oerjan
00:32:53 <Braber01> I acually thought the language was called brainf*ck and the * was part of the language name :)
00:33:28 <oerjan> ok then, no one say fuck
00:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Braber01, [whatever] means "if the current cell is not 0, execute whatever, then execute [whatever]".
00:34:09 <oerjan> i guess brainf*ck is better than brainfork, as i think some have called it (although that's a derivative too i think)
00:34:41 <oerjan> there is fuckyourbrane
00:35:11 <monqy> i wish i was as cultured on brainfuck derivatives as elliott and oerjan
00:35:48 <oerjan> "Here's the current FYB scoreboard:"
00:35:59 <oerjan> one might wonder if that's up to date
00:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess it could be like you have a space of branes and you have instructions to alter their harmonics.
00:36:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:36:41 <Braber01> So go get the Ascii Char(68) that would be ++++++++>[+>++++++++<-]++++ ?
00:36:46 <monqy> phantom hoover invents brainfuck derivative, world in shock
00:36:48 <kmc> > map pred "gvdl"
00:37:03 <elliott> Braber01: ASCII is irrelevant here
00:37:07 <Braber01> there's a diritive called fuckfuck
00:37:14 <elliott> it just puts the number 68 on the tape (assuming the program is correct, I haven't looked at it)
00:37:29 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>++++.
00:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Note that after executing the loop body the cell under the pointer remains unchanged.
00:37:40 <elliott> apparently it does put 68 on the tape
00:38:20 <EgoBot> 49 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>>+.<-.>.>-. [121]
00:38:33 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>>+.<-.>.
00:38:49 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++><<<-]>>+.<-.>.
00:39:28 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:39:38 <kmc> YAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
00:40:02 <kmc> !bf_textgen YAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
00:40:10 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++><<<-]>>+.<-......>........................
00:40:10 <fungot> YAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
00:40:29 <kmc> !bf_textgen YAY
00:40:45 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:41:01 <oerjan> i shall recommend corect spalling
00:41:11 <kmc> !bf_txtgen YAY
00:41:14 <EgoBot> 59 +++++++++++++[>>+++++++>+++++><<<<-]>++.>--.>.<.<.++++++++. [240]
00:41:15 <elliott> oerjan: you should op me btw
00:41:24 <kmc> ^bf +++++++++++++[>>+++++++>+++++><<<<-]>++.>--.>.<.<.++++++++.
00:42:21 <oerjan> excellent, they're easier to ignore one by one
00:42:49 <monqy> support elliott for op on condition he doesn't use his powers to ban himself
00:42:57 <kmc> !bf_txtgen ▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█
00:43:00 <EgoBot> 284 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<<-]>+.>.>------.>+.<<.>+.<<.>.>+.<<.>.>+.<<.>.>+.>.<<.>+.>.<<.>+.>.<<.--------------.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. [639]
00:43:05 <elliott> monqy: I won't even ban you!
00:43:27 <monqy> sounds like something a good op would say!
00:43:27 <kmc> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<<-]>+.>.>------.>+.<<.>+.<<.>.>+.<<.>.>+.<<.>.>+.>.<<.>+.>.<<.>+.>.<<.--------------.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
00:43:34 <kmc> why does it put a dot at the end
00:43:56 <oerjan> kmc: EgoBot includes the end of line, which fungot censors
00:43:58 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, as we saw with some disquiet that the real problem. we have shown our capacity to manage change. our proposal builds extensively on the existing model? the problems this report raises the need to terminate the fnord term of office of the high level of human health protection in all member states have demonstrated unanimously and promptly, through mr guterres, we were under intense pressure. this is obvious
00:43:59 <fungot> oerjan: the impressive number of projects in collaboration with all the consequences of enlargement, and, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, today the sbarbati report which helps the elderly has been adopted with specific provision for ict within thematic budget lines would not, at the risk of not being particularly keen on, we would no longer be taken for the future.
00:44:20 <Braber01> Okay both my bf interperters are showing me an L%, I'm using beef & bf I'm not sure I'm using the right numbers :(
00:44:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:45:02 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
00:45:05 <fungot> elliott: gunyoki: the two-headed giant, with a thick mixture of sportsman and collector, gentleman and world traveler, a panther. ( nightmare at 20,000 feet, mounted on shafts about four to five feet high at the foot of a neanderthal. its body around in such a tool is found on both its arms and feet.
00:45:09 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
00:45:10 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:45:10 <fungot> elliott: the commodore 64 programmer's reference guide as a semicolon causes the program.
00:45:15 <elliott> oh great it's time for me to be opped!
00:45:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*cheater@*.dip.t-dialin.net.
00:45:20 -!- oerjan has kicked cheater__ Ban evasion.
00:45:31 <elliott> you pressed the wrong button!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:45:38 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*cheater@*.dip.t-dialin.net.
00:45:46 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*cheater*@*.dip.t-dialin.net.
00:46:08 <elliott> you could try $a:cheater. (that bans anyone identified with the nickserv account cheater)
00:46:18 <elliott> ^^^ kind of irc wisdom you'd expect from an OP, eh???
00:46:30 <kmc> shit is getting real in here
00:46:42 <elliott> i think we should ban kmc next
00:46:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*cheater*@*.dip.t-dialin.net.
00:47:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b $a:cheater.
00:47:03 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:47:27 <elliott> i haven't banned anyone for ages though!!! more reasons to op me
00:47:32 -!- kinoSi has joined.
00:47:39 <HackEgo> kinoSi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:48:18 <elliott> i have no idea if kinoSi is even new
00:48:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*lament@184.71.170.*.
00:48:28 <kmc> `welcome elliott
00:48:31 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:48:34 <elliott> oerjan: wow, unbanning lament without discussing it with the op who banned lament???
00:48:40 <elliott> how can you even consider unbanning lament without asking lament about it
00:48:42 <HackEgo> aloril: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:48:57 <elliott> op me and i promise to ban oerjan for life
00:49:07 <elliott> (that's my campaign speech)
00:49:18 <monqy> abusive ops need rehabilitiation not banning!!!!!!
00:49:18 <kmc> elliott: who's your running mate
00:49:35 <pikhq_> kinoSi: #esotericにようこそ！
00:49:37 <elliott> monqy: oerjan can be rehabilitated away from polite society
00:49:54 <elliott> (by banning him from polite society)
00:49:59 <elliott> (polite society is #esoteric)
00:50:22 <monqy> Q: is #esoteric really polite?????
00:50:33 <elliott> monqy: is #esoteric even a society
00:50:44 <monqy> is it possible to be away from #esoteric
00:50:49 <elliott> monqy: by the way I thought you gave up on this place
00:50:57 <elliott> or do you just keep joining for no reason like me
00:51:05 <monqy> i haven't given up enough to bother removing it from autojoin
00:51:20 <monqy> i hang around for the off chance of some good quotes
00:51:26 <monqy> from certain people
00:51:29 <pikhq_> kinoSi: 国際的のエソテリックプログラミングの場所です。詳しく情報はウィキで読めます：http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page (他のエソテリカはirc.dal.netの#esotericでいい）
00:51:37 <monqy> everyone else I don't particularly care about!!
00:51:46 <oerjan> <elliott> op me and i promise to ban oerjan for life <-- I CLAIM ENTRAPMENT
00:51:47 <elliott> wow monqy, you'll hurt the feelings of everyone else!!!!
00:51:58 <monqy> what if Dovregubben is a good quotes person
00:52:03 <monqy> (who's Dovregubben)
00:52:09 <elliott> i have no idea let's find out
00:52:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9136
00:52:55 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o elliott.
00:53:08 <elliott> i'm going to sit here doing nothing to show how responsible i am
00:53:24 <monqy> 2008-12-24.txt:10:27:07: <oerjan> I Dovregubbens hall
00:53:24 <monqy> 2010-03-05.txt:20:53:02: <AnMaster> hiato yet I like Grieg very much. But a lot of his isn't pompous even though it uses a full orchestra. (Of course some exceptions, like "I dovregubbens sal" (iirc, and "In the hall of the mountain king" in English))
00:53:28 <monqy> 2012-07-04.txt:05:35:59: -!- Dovregubben has joined #esoteric.
00:53:31 <monqy> the story behind the mystery man
00:53:35 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:53:48 <elliott> i will be a calming presence in this channel
00:53:52 <elliott> nothing can go wrong with me at the helm
00:54:34 <kmc> military coup seizes #esoteric, CNN brings you the latest tweets as they develop
00:55:02 <monqy> 2012-07-04.txt:05:47:34: <itidus21> Dovregubben: make yourself comfortable.. i think you're in the right place
00:55:06 <monqy> the itidus blessing
00:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> military coup siezes #esoteric, fails to deliver on election promises
00:55:42 <elliott> i never promised to do that
00:55:56 -!- Braber01 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:56:07 <monqy> is this what they call a hot button issue
00:56:30 <Phantom_Hoover> and due to your general hostility towards voicing issues it went unrecorded
00:56:32 <elliott> ooh, instead of kicking people I don't like, I could just selectively +v people I do like and then set +m
00:56:40 <elliott> put it in my list of things to do when I go mad with power
00:56:49 <elliott> how can I possibly comment
00:56:57 <elliott> maybe I never will go mad!
00:57:12 <elliott> how can I say what I'll do when I'm mad
00:57:37 <Gregor> You know what they say: power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I vote we get elliott network ops.
00:57:49 <kmc> i vote we give elliott the launch codes
00:58:15 <elliott> but I get more responsible the more power I'm given, it's awful
00:59:07 <elliott> kmc: i challenge you to a game of hangman
00:59:14 <elliott> monqy: (how do i type hangman without accidentally typing hangedman instead)
01:00:19 <monqy> elliott: get hangman in here and tab-complete
01:00:31 <monqy> I had to try very hard not to type hangedman!!!!! it's a curse
01:00:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to hangman.
01:00:42 <Gregor> ___ _____ _____ ___ ______ ____ ___ ____ ___: 0/6
01:01:15 <elliott> no, everyone but me is terrible
01:01:26 <hangman> opening with e is so mainstream
01:01:31 <Gregor> __E _____ __O__ _O_ ____E_ O_E_ __E ____ _O_: 0/6
01:02:05 <monqy> hey, i was going to do q!!!!
01:02:06 <Gregor> __E Q____ __O__ _O_ ____E_ O_E_ __E ____ _O_: 0/6
01:02:19 <Gregor> __E Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ O_E_ __E ____ _O_: 0/6
01:02:31 <Gregor> Six failures are allowed.
01:02:34 <monqy> can i guess the whole thing
01:02:41 <Gregor> __E Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ O_E_ __E __Z_ _O_: 0/6
01:02:48 <monqy> Gregor is a bad person!!!!!!
01:02:56 <oerjan> Gregor: The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog
01:02:58 <Gregor> __E Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ OVE_ __E __Z_ _O_: 0/6
01:02:58 <monqy> you're falling into his trap!!!!
01:03:01 -!- elliott has kicked oerjan oerjan.
01:03:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:03:19 <elliott> i think we can all agree that action was justified
01:03:26 <Gregor> I DO NOT RECOGNIZE TRYING TO SOLVE THE PUZZLE
01:03:30 <Gregor> YOU MUST MAKE LETTER GUESSES
01:03:40 <Gregor> __E Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ OVE_ __E __ZY _O_: 0/6
01:03:46 <Gregor> __E Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ OVE_ __E __ZY _O_: 1/6 Ø
01:03:57 <Gregor> __E Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ OVE_ __E __ZY _O_: 2/6 Ø2
01:04:05 <monqy> 2 isn't a letter elliott !!!!!
01:04:12 <Gregor> T_E Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ OVE_ T_E __ZY _O_: 2/6 Ø2
01:04:25 <Gregor> THE Q____ __O__ _OX ____E_ OVE_ THE __ZY _O_: 2/6 Ø2
01:04:33 <hangman> you ruined the symmetry goddamn it!!!
01:04:38 <Gregor> THE QU___ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ THE __ZY _O_: 2/6 Ø2
01:04:54 <Gregor> THE QU___ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ THE _AZY _O_: 2/6 Ø2
01:05:07 <Gregor> ÞE QU___ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ ÞE _AZY _O_: 2/6 Ø2
01:05:08 <elliott> p.s. do you lose at 6/6 or 7/6
01:05:24 <Gregor> ÞE QU___ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ ÞE _AZY _O_: 3/6 Ø2Ý
01:05:26 <elliott> p.s. that was funny i laughed
01:05:37 <Gregor> ÞE QU___ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ ÞE _AZY _O_: 4/6 Ø2ÝĐ
01:05:49 <Gregor> ÞE QU___ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ ÞE _AZY _O_: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:05:51 <elliott> uh oh!!! better think quick
01:05:58 <Gregor> ÞE QUI__ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ ÞE _AZY _O_: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:06:09 <Gregor> ÞE QUIC_ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ ÞE _AZY _O_: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:06:17 <Gregor> ÞE QUIC_ __O__ _OX _U__E_ OVE_ ÞE _AZY _OG: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:06:27 <Gregor> ÞE QUIC_ _RO__ _OX _U__E_ OVER ÞE _AZY _OG: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:06:33 <Gregor> ÞE QUICK _RO__ _OX _U__E_ OVER ÞE _AZY _OG: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:06:40 <Gregor> ÞE QUICK BRO__ _OX _U__E_ OVER ÞE _AZY _OG: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:06:47 <Gregor> ÞE QUICK BRO__ FUCK _U__E_ OVER ÞE _AZY _OG: 5/6 Ø2ÝĐÖ
01:06:52 <Gregor> ÞE QUICK BRO__ FUCK _U__E_ OVER ÞE _AZY _OG: 6/6 Ø2ÝĐÖÆ
01:06:58 -!- elliott has kicked oerjan ruining my fucking joke.
01:07:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:07:10 <monqy> oerjan "a double martyr"
01:07:11 <oerjan> someone is a little trigger happy
01:07:13 <elliott> i was going to wait until only one letter was left
01:07:37 <hangman> Unfortunately there are no diaereses in that sentence.
01:07:55 <monqy> elliott: my locale is broken so i cant make funny unicode jokes
01:08:00 <monqy> they all show up as question marks!!!
01:08:05 <elliott> no monqy was going to be the one with the word
01:08:07 <elliott> but ok monqy can do this next one
01:08:28 <monqy> but my joke was the word was going to be a smiley face
01:08:30 <elliott> monqy: come up with a word i'm ready
01:08:31 <monqy> but i cant type smiley faces
01:08:48 <elliott> monqy: it should be a proper word!
01:08:56 <monqy> smiley faces are a word!!!
01:09:08 <elliott> no unicode !!!!! you funny broken unicode person
01:09:29 <monqy> in other news i'm bad at thinking of words
01:09:31 <shachaf> elliott: Who died and made you op? :-(
01:09:33 <monqy> shachaf can you think of a word for me
01:09:52 <monqy> let's see how many letters is that
01:10:12 <monqy> > map (const '_') "telemarketer"
01:10:25 <shachaf> kmc: What happened in here. :-(
01:10:41 <shachaf> Are we still talking about misuse of cryptographic primitives?
01:10:41 <monqy> ____________: 1/6 2
01:10:53 <monqy> ____________: 3/6 2.hexagon
01:11:03 <monqy> ____________: 5/6 2.hexagona birdlevity
01:11:12 <shachaf> elliott: Can you go hangmanning somewhere else?
01:11:19 <shachaf> This is a bad channel for that.
01:11:23 <monqy> you_lose_sorry 6/6 2.hexagona birdlevitylemarke
01:11:26 <elliott> monqy: lemarke is one of the letters in "telemarketer"!!!!!
01:11:37 <oerjan> shachaf: hey i don't have ops
01:11:38 <monqy> lemarke isn't a ltter!!!!!!
01:11:50 <monqy> i don't have a lemarke key
01:11:52 <shachaf> lemarke is obviously a derivative of lexande
01:12:26 <monqy> also broken locale ruins me again: i wanted to put skulls and crossbones for every letter
01:12:31 <oerjan> je think que you are missing lemarke
01:12:32 <shachaf> The quick brown fox jumps over the slithy tove.
01:13:22 <shachaf> Wait, #haskell turned bad too.
01:13:25 <hangman> _____ 6/6 4the popeqoomegaz
01:14:03 <elliott> monqy: you should have done that.....
01:14:06 <elliott> make the word be a bunch of _s
01:14:11 <elliott> that would have been funny!!!
01:14:16 <monqy> yes.........................
01:14:24 <elliott> can we go back in time and fix that
01:14:30 <monqy> we can still do it!!
01:14:38 <shachaf> monqy: I'm going to southern CA!
01:14:39 <monqy> > map (const '_') "________________________________________"
01:14:40 <lambdabot> "________________________________________"
01:14:46 <shachaf> monqy: Should I go visit you?
01:14:52 <monqy> ________________________________________: 0/6
01:15:02 <monqy> ________________________________________: 1/6 q
01:15:09 <monqy> ________________________________________: 2/6 qhelp
01:15:11 <kmc> > fix (map (const '_'))
01:15:15 <monqy> ________________________________________: 3/6 qhelpno!!!
01:15:26 <monqy> ________________________________________: 4/6 qhelpno!!!> fix (map (const '_'))
01:15:28 <elliott> monqy: stop this help me out
01:15:39 <monqy> with what do you need help
01:15:48 <elliott> please continue updating the board
01:15:53 <monqy> ________________________________________: 6/6 qhelpno!!!> fix (map (const '_'))monqy: stopmonqy: stop this help me out
01:15:55 -!- elliott has kicked monqy monqy.
01:16:01 -!- monqy has joined.
01:16:04 <shachaf> kmc: Can you kick elliott?
01:16:12 <monqy> you're a sore loser, elliott!!
01:16:27 <monqy> ________________________________________
01:16:36 <monqy> you already lost!!!!
01:16:39 <monqy> there's no turning back
01:16:52 <shachaf> I HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT POST TO READ
01:17:04 <elliott> but i already told monqy to read that post
01:17:05 <shachaf> So wait until I'm done reading it.
01:17:08 <elliott> which i haven't told you to read yet
01:17:11 <elliott> but i will if you read that one
01:17:26 <monqy> i was going to read them but now i think i'll do something else first
01:17:40 <monqy> shachaf needs a turn too!
01:17:40 -!- hangman has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:17:41 <elliott> are you going to do spells4 instead
01:17:46 <monqy> I already did spells4
01:17:53 <elliott> i thought it wasn't done yet
01:17:56 <shachaf> monqy: Can you kick elliott. :-(
01:17:59 <Gregor> I remember implementing C standard library scrabble. Wonder if that's still around somewhere…
01:18:07 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +o monqy.
01:18:21 <monqy> shachaf: i think so
01:18:24 <elliott> do the responsible thing monqy
01:18:26 -!- monqy has set channel mode: +v shachaf.
01:18:27 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o shachaf.
01:19:10 <elliott> monqy: can i have my lambdabot admin back please
01:19:31 <elliott> i don't think shachaf deserves voice monqy
01:19:38 -!- monqy has set channel mode: -v shachaf.
01:19:41 <shachaf> elliott: I think you're already a lambdabot admin. :-(
01:19:42 <monqy> "you had yuore chance"
01:19:53 -!- monqy has set channel mode: +v monqy.
01:19:57 -!- monqy has set channel mode: +v elliott.
01:19:59 -!- monqy has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
01:20:06 <shachaf> monqy: "i think you mean yuor'e chance"
01:20:07 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -v Gregor.
01:20:17 <elliott> campaign promise fulfilled
01:20:33 <shachaf> monqy: If I admin you will you op me. :-(
01:20:37 <lambdabot> uptime: 23d 10h 19m 1s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
01:20:38 <monqy> if only hangman was here!!!
01:21:02 <oerjan> he was tired of hanging out
01:21:33 <shachaf> oerjan: You should deop elliott.
01:21:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:21:43 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o elliott.
01:21:54 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:21:55 <monqy> is voice not good enough for you!!!
01:22:02 <elliott> monqy: remember the calming presence
01:22:03 <monqy> i'll see what i can do
01:22:05 -!- monqy has set channel mode: +v elliott.
01:22:05 <shachaf> monqy won't bring chaos to #esoteric
01:22:22 <elliott> that was because i believed in you
01:22:25 -!- monqy has set channel mode: -o elliott.
01:22:29 <monqy> what's the right button
01:22:44 <elliott> monqy: maybe you just don't know how to be friends....with anyone............
01:22:46 <elliott> i hope that's not true monqy!
01:23:01 <elliott> i think you should prove you can be believed in, monqy!!!
01:23:18 <shachaf> monqy: i beielive in yoU!!
01:23:23 <shachaf> elliott: i belivev in u mad!
01:23:28 -!- monqy has set channel mode: +o-o elliott monqy.
01:23:52 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +o monqy.
01:24:19 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:24:22 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o elliott.
01:24:22 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:24:32 <elliott> monqy: i still believe in you
01:24:42 <elliott> you can overcome this tyranny
01:24:43 -!- monqy has set channel mode: +oo-o elliott shachaf monqy.
01:24:46 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o shachaf.
01:24:49 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +o monqy.
01:25:23 <elliott> does anyone want to talk about brainfuck derivatives
01:25:42 <elliott> monqy: you tried your best & did the right thing
01:25:47 <monqy> shachaf: but elliott is already opped!!!!
01:26:23 <pikhq_> elliott: No, I only wish to discuss Befunge extensions.
01:26:38 <pikhq_> I'm not going to be happy until Befunge is impossible to implement.
01:26:50 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, that's easy.
01:26:58 <pikhq_> Halting oracle fingerprint.
01:27:15 <elliott> monqy: so do you have anything left to do with
01:27:27 <monqy> for example, the mspell part
01:27:51 <elliott> monqy: (so what have you done so far)
01:27:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o elliott.
01:27:54 * pikhq_ creates Brainfunge. BWAHAHAHA
01:27:55 <monqy> i also have to do things like shower and eat and read these blog!!!
01:28:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o monqy.
01:28:04 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
01:28:44 <pikhq_> fungot = INT_MAX // This too
01:28:44 <fungot> pikhq_: 10 get a character
01:29:45 <fungot> shachaf: open 794, 62282, 65472
01:29:48 <fungot> shachaf: call address: ffdb ( hex) 65514 ( decimal). characters used to open a logical operator names. if none of the two extra colors from the information by means of the string.
01:34:09 <fungot> pikhq_: the vic-ii chip does much of the comparison. for more information, visit your commodore 64, all you need to change these contents using peripheral inputs, together with the commodore 64 has 4k of ram
01:34:24 <shachaf> pikhq_: We're already in undefined behaviorland.
01:34:49 <fungot> pikhq_: if you don't want to read or set the raster register is put a " semi-tutorial" approach to many sections of the port on the cnt line, the
01:42:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:42:48 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
01:42:50 <fungot> shachaf: no you idiots find this crap on another site. its best just to ignore? ::p box, and was rolling! hilarious!
01:44:30 <fungot> kmc: i agree with xharlequin, her music and comedy. it failed. there were no passengers
01:44:54 <kmc> fungot for president
01:44:55 <fungot> kmc: plancrashinfo says:). it's great for tree removal and clearing land for housing! mmmm nothin' like blackend air bus, im beginning to believe only 3 people died
01:45:36 <kmc> fungot: butts
01:45:36 <fungot> kmc: god that's fucking hilarious. glad to see it
01:45:52 <kmc> finally, someone appreciates my sense of humor
01:49:10 <shachaf> kmc: Did you send off your email?
01:50:30 <kmc> to stripe? yes
01:51:27 <shachaf> I'll bug gdb about it next time I see him!
01:52:11 <kmc> do you see gdb often?
01:52:24 <kmc> did you start working at stripe secretly?
01:52:33 <shachaf> No, but I went to a couple of their hackathons.
01:52:38 <kmc> say hi for me
01:52:42 <kmc> say hi to nelson also if you see him
01:52:56 <shachaf> Maybe they'll have a CTF event like last time.
01:53:31 <shachaf> I told Nelson about bahaskell but it turns out he doesn't really do Haskell anymore.
01:55:09 <shachaf> kmc: You should go work at Stripe!
01:55:17 <shachaf> I hear it's "the cool place to be".
01:55:31 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to napumpkin.
01:55:36 <kmc> it's far away
01:55:43 <kmc> also it's already, like, a big company
01:55:45 -!- napumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
01:56:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
01:57:53 <kmc> it's in SF
01:57:57 <kmc> that is far away from here
01:58:02 <kmc> and yeah, they have more than 30 people already
02:01:52 <kmc> i don't really do Haskell anymore
02:02:02 <kmc> i still use the language when appropriate
02:02:16 <kmc> but i don't particularly spend my free time talking about haskell anymore
02:02:22 <kmc> shachaf: you're soundnfury now?
02:02:35 <shachaf> soundnfury 'n' cheater combined
02:02:40 <kmc> the dream team
02:03:48 <kmc> i no longer feel like i have a vested interest in convincing other people to use haskell
02:04:09 <kmc> i'll probably go to the next boston haskell though
02:04:20 <kmc> if i'm free
02:05:05 <shachaf> I'm trying to arrange for the next boston haskell to be in SF.
02:05:18 <kmc> cool, good luck with that
02:05:40 <shachaf> Except by BostonHaskell I mean "bahaskell, but edwardk doing a talk".
02:06:01 <shachaf> Since he'll be in the area around then anyway.
02:07:01 <shachaf> And ezyang will be here too.
02:08:00 <shachaf> The Internet connection here is very slow.
02:08:14 <shachaf> I can use Mosh but other things are unpleasant to use.
02:08:36 -!- Jaurrison has joined.
02:08:56 <kmc> where are you?
02:09:55 -!- Jaurrison has quit (Client Quit).
02:11:16 <shachaf> Public-Internet-connection place.
02:11:25 <shachaf> kmc: Today I had a super burrito.
02:11:34 <shachaf> It was made of two tortillas rather than just one.
02:12:27 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to cyclops.
02:13:12 -!- cyclops has changed nick to copumpkin.
02:13:37 <shachaf> I have a hilight on funpuns now.
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02:51:11 <zzo38> What is it called in backgammon if you win while the other player still has pieces in jail?
02:51:17 <oklopol> so this dr who thing is british or did i take the wrong one?
02:51:49 <zzo38> I know it is winning, but I wanted to know if it is anything special.
02:52:15 <oklopol> i wonder if there's us english dubs for it.
02:55:18 <kmc> how about subs
02:55:56 <Sgeo> I think unamb might not be that great an idea on Clojure, at least partially because using it to build a variadic parallel or seems annoying and difficult
02:56:11 <oklopol> i think i would read them as uk subs and they would be annoying.
02:57:34 <kmc> like how white people (e.g. me) watch The Wire with subs
02:58:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:58:08 <kmc> though that's like 4 layers of incomprehensible
02:58:41 <kmc> african american vernacular english + bawlmer accent + gangsta slang + non-professional actors
02:59:04 <oklopol> it's not so much hard to understand, it's just such a silly language.
02:59:26 <kmc> plus the show makes absolutely no attempt to hold your hand through understanding what's going on
03:00:07 <oklopol> maybe i'll watch that just for the incomprehensibility
03:00:18 <kmc> yes The Wire is a good show
03:00:28 <kmc> i have a feeling i am being trolled, because of how often i talk about how good it is
03:00:33 <shachaf> I don't own a television, only a large form factor screen with T tuner.
03:00:33 <kmc> as well as how often everyone else talks about how good it is
03:00:41 <kmc> does that help you make better tea?
03:00:45 <kmc> is it ISO 3103 compliant?
03:01:04 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:03:45 <shachaf> I should keep a list of which shows are good shows.
03:03:50 <shachaf> In case I ever want to watch some.
03:03:57 <shachaf> The Wire and Breaking Bad, what else?
03:04:09 <kmc> what kind of shows do you like
03:04:16 <oklopol> is the wire about actual wires because i like those
03:04:20 <kmc> there are some wires
03:04:33 <kmc> it's not exactly about wires
03:04:49 <shachaf> I'm not sure... I don't own a television, see.
03:04:54 <kmc> but they play an important role
03:05:37 <oklopol> okay what wp says sounds interesting enough
03:06:11 <kmc> The Wire is unlike any other TV show
03:06:12 <oklopol> not that i see how wires could have anything to do with it.
03:06:25 <kmc> there are cops and drug dealers, but they're mostly not good and evil
03:06:32 <kmc> they're mostly just people trying to do their jobs well enough to not get fired
03:07:03 <oklopol> err, many shows are like that?
03:07:20 <shachaf> Well, I have no idea if it sounds like it'll make a good story. Hard to tell.
03:07:43 <oklopol> but that's like the most important thing in a show
03:07:58 <oklopol> so i should definitely watch it
03:08:01 <kmc> i haven't really seen another show like that
03:08:15 <kmc> in most TV shows, the cops are altruistic and a few are evil
03:08:20 <kmc> and the drug dealers are evil, and a few are altruistic
03:08:30 <kmc> in the wire (and in real life) people are mostly neither altruistic or evil
03:08:31 <oklopol> well i haven't seen it in a crime show
03:08:44 <oklopol> i have mostly seen it in shows with vampires and shit.
03:09:46 <oklopol> then it's mostly good/bad/psychopath-murderer-on-the-good-side-for-some-reason
03:09:48 <kmc> mostly the show is about institutions, and the people who either embody the institution's failures, or try to reform the institution (and are usually punished severely for it)
03:09:59 <kmc> but enough talk, watch the show :)
03:10:23 <shachaf> The next thing I watch will probably be _The Impostors_.
03:10:35 <shachaf> Because I have a DVD of it.
03:10:49 <shachaf> I hear you have to watch it several times before it makes sense.
03:12:43 <kmc> the impostors?
03:13:23 <shachaf> I don't know much about it.
03:15:46 <Sgeo> Blah, future-cancel might not cancel a future.
03:15:53 <Sgeo> My unamb might leak memory
03:16:31 <oklopol> i think it says "oklo rigger duff radar" in a poster on the wall in dr who
03:16:46 <oklopol> if you watch it does it say kmc/shachaf/Sgeo?
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03:17:12 <kmc> Sgeo: won't the memory get reclaimed once the future is no longer reachable?
03:17:49 <Sgeo> kmc, hmm, why would it? It might have side-effects, at least I think the JVM might think so
03:18:00 <kmc> once the computation is finished, then?
03:18:20 <Sgeo> But what if a computation doesn't finish. future-cancel might not cancel a future
03:18:21 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
03:18:39 <kmc> doesn't finish? you mean if it enters an infinite loop?
03:18:49 <Sgeo> (future-cancel (future (loop [] (recur))))
03:19:01 <Sgeo> From what I gather in #clojure that won't actually cancel it
03:19:13 -!- monqy has joined.
03:19:23 <Sgeo> Because the JVM has no way to safely stop it
03:19:38 <kmc> you want to be able to use unamb in situations where one side terminates and the other loops
03:19:41 <kmc> (but you don't know which)
03:19:44 <Sgeo> There is .stop for threasd but that's unsafe
03:20:01 <kmc> what's unsafe
03:20:05 <Sgeo> Well, it's not all infinite loops that pose a problem, just some, I gather
03:20:16 <Sgeo> .stopping a Thread.
03:20:34 <Sgeo> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/threadPrimitiveDeprecation.html
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03:33:29 <zzo38> Is something having to do with send/receive messages on X-BIT are broken?
03:33:58 <zzo38> It seems to no longer send/receive on Usenet and also can no longer send/receive on FidoNet.
03:41:00 <shachaf> Is FidoNet a protocol that runs over econet?
03:42:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you spend a lot of effort and time on all sorts of systems and protocols that no one uses anymore, like gopher?
03:42:43 <zzo38> It isn't true that nobody uses them anymore.
03:42:52 <shachaf> Well, very few people use them.
03:43:06 <shachaf> Why use Gopher instead of HTTP, for example?
03:43:16 <Sgeo> A book about computers I had as a kid mentioned gopher
03:43:18 <zzo38> I have both gopher and HTTP.
03:43:41 <Sgeo> shachaf, it's fun is probably a sufficient reason, but not sure if it's zzo38's reason.
03:44:18 <shachaf> I'm wondering what zzo38's reason is.
03:44:56 <zzo38> It is better designed.
03:47:58 <zzo38> Modern HTML+CSS+HTTP+Flash+Windows+ActiveX+Linux+Unicode+HTTPS+JavaScript+DynamicHTML+... is too complicated and exposes a few things which shouldn't be and so on.
03:49:00 <shachaf> But you don't need to use HTML+CSS+HTTP+Flash+Windows+ActiveX+Linux+Unicode+HTTPS+JavaScript+DynamicHTML+...
03:49:07 <shachaf> I don't think anyone has used all of those at once.
03:50:38 <zzo38> shachaf: I think some people do, and even use a bunch of other things togheter with it. (Even Windows and Linux are sometimes used together with dual boot and with some server racks.)
03:50:51 <kmc> what's DynamicHTML
03:51:03 <kmc> nobody uses ActiveX anymore
03:51:09 <kmc> except corporate intranet IE6 backwaters
03:52:07 <shachaf> DynamicHTML is Microsoft's name for HTML + JavaScript, I think.
03:52:23 -!- ais523 has quit.
03:52:23 <shachaf> Maybe a little more general than that.
03:52:59 <Sgeo> I had a book called DHTML for Dummies
03:53:19 <Sgeo> Oh, it might have been Dynamic HTML for Dummies
03:54:05 <Sgeo> Hmm, except it wasn't exclusively Microsoft stuff
03:55:22 <Sgeo> I once had ActiveX for Dummies
03:55:42 <Sgeo> Reading it is what finally made programming "click" for me in my mind, but I broke the CD, so never played around with it
03:55:56 <Sgeo> Since those long ID things are scary, and the CD had some tool to deal with those
03:56:16 <Sgeo> If that CD didn't break, I wonder if I'd be a Microsoft fanboy programming ActiveX stuff today...
03:58:10 <zzo38> And then, they also use PDF, and all sorts of slow stuff, and all kind of videos even if they are not necessary, various pictures formats (SVG, JPEG, GIF, PNG, etc), ...
03:58:37 <Sgeo> HTTP only enables it, it doesn't enforce it
03:59:54 <zzo38> That is true, but sometimes you need those various headers anyways even though they are not used.
04:00:07 <zzo38> It can make it slow.
04:08:56 <Sgeo> Ugh, I can't tell which JRE .jars open in by default
04:12:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:15:38 <pikhq> Hey, right side of the split.
04:16:33 <Sgeo> "Well TCP has been superceded already by application layer protocols doing a more efficient congestion and flow control these days so its kind of a moot point"
04:16:40 <Sgeo> I feel dumber for having read that
04:16:51 <pikhq> It ate my intelligence.
04:17:31 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/yuoxx/stanford_biologist_and_computer_scientist/c5z244w
04:18:24 <pikhq> So, that person thinks we use HTTP pipelining to make TCP act less like TCP?
04:18:57 <pikhq> I thought that was used to make HTTP act more like what TCP expects.
04:19:47 <pikhq> Namely, a somewhat long-lived connection.
04:19:59 <pikhq> A *single* somewhat long-lived connection.
04:20:33 * Sgeo looks up HTTP pipelining
04:20:47 <pikhq> That's where you run multiple HTTP requests over the same connection.
04:21:24 <pikhq> TCP is poorly suited to the tons-of-small-connections model HTTP in modern usage implies.
04:21:58 <Sgeo> Wikipedia says sending several requests before receiving a response. But if you're loading a page for the first time how can you know before the response what you'll need to request beyond that first page?
04:22:22 <pikhq> Typically what you do is load the HTML first and then request its dependencies once you've parsed it.
04:22:36 <pikhq> I bet he also thinks uTP is an example of "doing better than TCP".
04:23:31 <pikhq> ... When really it's more "TCP flow control made less aggressive, because buffer bloat means that otherwise BitTorrent cripples *everything*"
04:24:03 <kmc> Mosh fits that quote, though :D
04:24:18 <pikhq> Yes, Mosh is an example of *actually doing it better*.
04:24:37 <kmc> doing it better because you have application-level knowledge
04:24:43 <pikhq> In certain environments it's quite possible to kick TCP's ass.
04:24:51 <kmc> i don't think KeithW would claim Mosh flow control beats TCP for the general problem TCP solves
04:24:54 <kmc> that's his other project :)
04:25:11 <pikhq> When your application-level knowledge gives you alternative schemes, then hey.
04:25:32 <pikhq> I suspect TCP's pretty hard to beat for the general case. And SCTP is the one thing that beats it. :P
04:25:55 * Sgeo is actually considering installing Eclipse and Counterclockwise
04:26:38 <kmc> that project involves an explicit model of network elements, an explicit utility function, and Bayesian inference of network conditions
04:27:25 <pikhq> kmc: Sweet Jesus he's applying AI to the problem.
04:28:08 <kmc> yeah, or what passes for AI these days
04:28:42 <kmc> it seems desirable (and yet extremely rare) for both ends of the connection to have an idea of what they're trying to accomplish
04:29:14 <kmc> if Google can make a billion hojillion dollars on "gather loads of data, then perform naive bayesian inference"
04:29:20 <kmc> then it should at least be worth a few papers :)
04:29:21 <pikhq> That'll be a changing target until we have a decent grasp on what it actually means for humans to be "intelligent" at a sufficiently low level we can algorithm it.
04:34:48 <kmc> it is the CS & AI Lab, after all
04:35:28 <oklopol> so i hear google translate uses finite transducers
04:36:27 <oklopol> a formal language theorist told me this. he was not happy about i.
04:37:27 <kmc> google made the best arabic translator, without having anyone on the project who speaks arabic
04:37:32 <oklopol> (not because google "did it wrong"; according to him, google tried the "correct" grammars too, but it didn't work)
04:39:02 <oklopol> perhaps they just use one of the known transducer learning algorithms, but on more samples than a human needs to learn the language.
04:52:17 <pikhq> Hmm. Looking at Mosh's terminal emulator stuff makes me realize that it'd probably be nice to write a not-terrible terminal emulator.
04:52:34 <pikhq> Like, one that does Unicode (to the extent it's possible).
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04:55:28 <pikhq_> 22:52 < pikhq> Hmm. Looking at Mosh's terminal emulator stuff makes me realize that it'd probably be nice to write a not-terrible terminal emulator.
04:55:31 <pikhq_> 22:52 < pikhq> Like, one that does Unicode (to the extent it's possible).
04:55:34 <pikhq_> 22:54 * pikhq would rather not mosh into localhost to get proper terminal emulation; :P
04:56:19 <kmc> i find the unicode handling of rxvt-unicode to be adequate
04:56:26 <kmc> i don't see a big difference whether i'm using mosh or not
04:56:50 <pikhq_> ATM I'm using XFCE terminal (same underlying library as GNOME terminal)
04:56:52 <kmc> btw I think one of the programs in "src/examples/" in Mosh is just the terminal emulation layer
04:57:05 <kmc> pikhq_: ah, we got a lot of bug reports about VTE
04:57:48 <kmc> apparently it is pretty awful code -- the GTK calls to manipulate pixels are done right within the VT220 parser
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04:58:10 <kmc> you got so outraged that your ghost quit
04:58:39 <kmc> this is compared to maintaining some kind of "what's in every cell" data structure, and then rendering that in a straightforward way
04:58:43 <kmc> which is what mosh does
04:59:06 <pikhq_> Or what I'd expect anyone to do.
04:59:36 <pikhq_> That'd make VTE quite useful if they made such a structure and exposed it at API level.
04:59:42 <kmc> the main difference I see between urxvt and mosh-in-urxvt is a disadvantage of Mosh
04:59:57 <kmc> which is that, if the server side locale doesn't know about a particular Unicode character, it turns into the replacement character
05:00:03 <kmc> even if the local urxvt knows how to render it
05:00:29 <pikhq_> Good thing I use en_US.UTF-8 essentially unconditionally!
05:00:50 <kmc> sure, i mean you have to use a UTF-8 locale anyway
05:01:01 <kmc> but does the locale file on your server have the latest version of the Unicode character database
05:01:11 <kmc> with all the exciting OUTLINE OF JAPAN and PILE OF POO and so forth
05:01:14 <kmc> essential characters to be sure
05:01:36 <pikhq_> Well, there's a chance it's a musl system, in which case it's 10k in libc...
05:01:57 <pikhq_> Aaaand I have no idea how that interacts.
05:02:21 <kmc> there should be a piece of software named metamusl
05:03:35 <kmc> does mosh work in musl?
05:03:57 <pikhq_> Y'know, I've actually not tried.
05:04:51 <pikhq_> I'd have to actually set up a moderately-functional musl system again to test. :P
05:05:47 <pikhq_> Or poke Gregor once his try-all-of-pkgsrc script finishes again.
05:10:04 <pikhq_> Oh, it's C++; yeah, that's definitely a "should work" proposition there.
05:13:25 <pikhq_> Though Qt doesn't build currently. :/
05:15:31 <kmc> gotta sleep, ttyl
05:21:32 <tswett> Given a 128-bit block cipher, derive a 64-bit block cipher.
05:26:31 <tswett> The "obvious" way to do it is to expand the 64 bits to 128 bits, encrypt that, and collapse the resulting 128 bits into 64 bits.
05:26:37 <tswett> Unfortunately, the last step is impossible.
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05:41:06 <zzo38> Disadvantage of Mosh? I think it is a disadvantage of Unicode.
05:42:29 <zzo38> (Which is that you even need a character database at all.)
05:44:52 <pikhq> zzo38: It's a weird combination of the needs of terminal emulation and international text display.
05:45:06 <pikhq> Namely, the terminal needs to know how many cells a given glyph will take.
05:45:25 <zzo38> "which is that, if the server side locale doesn't know about a particular Unicode character, it turns into the replacement character" I think it would have to, if the server wants to know how wide it is and stuff like that (they could dynamically generate it from asking the terminal emulator for the cursor position, but then there are complex scripts and stuff)
05:45:59 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes; and that is a problem with Unicode.
05:46:10 <pikhq> No, it's a problem with terminals.
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05:46:29 <zzo38> I don't think so. I think it is a problem with Unicode.
05:46:44 <pikhq> You'd have the same problem with anything handling that sort of text.
05:46:58 <zzo38> (One way to solve it would be if the character numbers were assigned differently)
05:47:00 <pikhq> Unless your answer is "those Arabs should use English".
05:47:17 <pikhq> That'd just be a particularly compact sort of database.
05:48:38 <zzo38> Mixing left-to-right and right-to-left text is always a problem; it has nothing specific to do with Unicode or terminals.
05:49:01 <pikhq> Unicode actually has an algorithm for that. :)
05:51:00 <zzo38> Yes I know but still it is no good. TeX-XeT also has an algorithm for that, but I still think it is not such a good idea to do line breaking in a RTL text which inside of a LTR sentence, and vice versa. (At least with TeX-XeT you do not need a character database.)
05:54:00 <zzo38> Both for complex scripts and for right-to-left, one thing which could be done to solve it easier would be: The program which is designed for this language will translate into presentation form when displaying.
05:55:29 <asiekierka> i'm installing mysql server on a 128MB ARM netbook
05:56:08 <zzo38> I don't want to run. The other people are sleeping and that would disturb them.
05:56:43 <pikhq> But 僕 信 に 他語的 text.
06:03:05 <zzo38> If you play the NES/Famicom square wave channels both the same except the first uses duty mode 1 and second is duty mode 3, and there is nobody around to hear it, does it make a noise?
06:04:32 <zzo38> (I am unable to test it on authentic hardware. I have a Famiclone hardware but no way to put software on a cartridge.)
06:13:33 -!- kallisti has changed nick to spirity.
06:14:14 <spirity> (note: humor is always on topic)
06:15:05 <spirity> so we should take Gregor's IRC log
06:15:24 <spirity> and count everyone's average time of typo correction.
06:16:51 <spirity> in which the computer learns the average time of typo correcion of everyone in the channel named #esoteric on the Freenode network hosted at irc.freenode.net
06:17:56 <fizzie> Also I though this was elliott speaking for some reason.
06:18:33 <spirity> caused by incomplete sentences.
06:19:14 <spirity> also, a web interface to change/edit the topic.
06:19:40 <monqy> fizzie: elliott's offended
06:19:54 <zzo38> I don't see why you need to change the topic in that way.
06:20:10 <spirity> zzo38: describe the workflow of changing an IRC topic.
06:20:38 <zzo38> One thing that will cause is the topic message to be changed into spam messages too often?
06:20:49 <fizzie> monqy: Kitten Is Offended.
06:21:00 <zzo38> And anyways you can just use IRC.
06:21:09 <zzo38> Describe the workflow using IRC.
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06:21:50 <spirity> zzo38: depends on client, operating system, graphics mananger. display manager.
06:21:55 -!- elliott has joined.
06:21:59 <monqy> spirity: why did you say hi so many times???
06:21:59 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
06:22:06 <spirity> monqy: because I was excited.
06:22:16 <zzo38> spirity: Well, yes; everything does.
06:23:10 <spirity> zzo38: /topic, highlight in your terminal emulator of choice, copy into a /topic command
06:23:35 <spirity> using IRC client and command input scheme of choice.
06:24:02 <fizzie> zzo38: Is duty mode 3 just inverted duty mode 1?
06:24:11 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, I think so.
06:24:52 <spirity> workflow for HTTP interface: go to extremely tiny easy to remember link using web browser of choice. change text in a textarea. submit POST request using favorite input method of choice.
06:25:36 <zzo38> Yes, the workflow is different but I think the first way is obviously better.
06:25:52 <zzo38> Since you already will have IRC, if you are on IRC.
06:26:04 <spirity> specifically it elimates the copy command, which can be time consuming.
06:26:05 <zzo38> And you need not load another program.
06:26:24 <spirity> change topic by regex substition?
06:26:34 <zzo38> Loading another program is even more time consuming
06:26:56 <spirity> easy to moderate spammers (on paper, anyway)
06:26:57 <zzo38> And depending on the IRC client you may not even need a copy command.
06:27:13 <spirity> indeed. are there any examples?
06:27:31 <spirity> if not, let's write an IRC client.
06:27:51 <zzo38> I don't know of any but it is definitely possible.
06:29:01 <fizzie> What's the copy command for? If it's to copy the old one, all the gooey clients have it already in the text field.
06:29:02 <zzo38> I find the copy command is definitely less time consuming than loading another program and is also less time consuming than selecting a bunch of menus or whatever.
06:29:39 <spirity> yes, GUI clients typically have this.
06:29:54 <zzo38> (At least I am using PHIRC with the PuTTY terminal emulator; to copy text just highlight with left mouse button, and then click the right button (middle button if on UNIX).)
06:30:56 <fizzie> Freenode ChanServ has topicappend/topicprepend, though not quite topicregex.
06:30:57 <zzo38> So to copy the topic message, simply by typing TOPIC and then space and CTRL+C and then space, colon, highlight message and then paste (no explicit "copy to clipboard" command is necessary).
06:31:01 <spirity> regex is likely to be faster.
06:31:53 <spirity> the HTTP interface is only a good idea for some kind of larger web-based system.
06:32:38 <spirity> dedicated web based client (already exists)
06:33:13 <zzo38> Well, yes, it is a good idea for some kind of larger web-based system, but a kind of larger web-based system is a bad idea anyways.
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07:58:54 <coppro> trying to set up email from my machine
08:02:22 <fizzie> It's not hard, it's Simple; it says so right in the name.
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08:15:37 <fizzie> Does anyone happen to know how screen determines the encoding to speak to the terminal? I have LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 everywhere (both locally as well as remotely), but after they upgraded this workstation, I now have to use "screen -U" to convince it to speak (and listen) UTF-8 to (from) the terminal; it didn't use to require anything.
08:18:48 <fizzie> The -U option seems to just nwin_options.encoding = nwin_options.encoding == -1 ? UTF8 : 0;, but that doesn't really make sense, since it also if (((s = getenv("LC_ALL")) || (s = getenv("LC_CTYPE")) || (s = getenv("LANG"))) && InStr(s, "UTF-8")) nwin_options.encoding = UTF8; and that sure should be true.
08:19:45 <fizzie> Well, okay, it maybe does nwin_options.encoding = FindEncoding(nl_langinfo(CODESET)); instead, but certainly that should be the same thing.
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08:30:40 <fizzie> Okay, it seems that the locale-setting returns errors if there's even a single LC_ variable that refers to a non-generated locale; I only had en_US ones generated, but due to something or other LC_PAPER was set to fi_FI.UTF-8; generating the fi_FI locales fixed it.
08:31:14 <shachaf> What's wrong with en_FI.UTF-8?
08:32:55 <fizzie> "cannot open locale definition file `en_FI': No such file or directory" is what's wrong with it.
08:41:04 <shachaf> What's wrong with fi_FI.UTF-8, rather?
08:42:39 <fizzie> Nothing in particular, except that it hadn't been generated on the box I ssh to.
08:43:17 <fizzie> (In the context of LC_MESSAGES, what's wrong are the silly messages.)
08:44:44 <fizzie> (And I suppose the commas in context of LC_NUMERIC.)
08:46:14 <fizzie> Anyway, the "stupef" bit referred more to the fact that even if LC_PAPER is set to a locale that doesn't exist, it shouldn't break things that depend only on LC_CTYPE, which after all was set to a perfectly valid value.
09:28:57 <Deewiant> But of course you want fi_FI on LC_{MONETARY,PAPER,ADDRESS,TELEPHONE,MEASUREMENT} so there's no reason to not have it generated.
09:31:22 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=RrL2hLpCGwk&NR=1 wtf
09:32:24 <monqy> @ask elliott <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=RrL2hLpCGwk&NR=1 wtf
09:32:29 <monqy> im sure he';ll appreciate this video
09:32:54 <Sgeo> Does the person actually think this looks real? At all?
09:33:13 <monqy> @ask elliott <Sgeo> Does the person actually think this looks real? At all?
09:33:22 <monqy> (important commentary, not to be without)
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09:34:16 <shachaf> monqy: who's your favourite bot?? ??
09:34:34 <monqy> i like a lot of bots
09:34:37 <monqy> for different reasons
09:34:46 <monqy> they're incomparable, you could say
09:35:43 <monqy> in which direction is the join????
09:36:19 <monqy> a good direction as any, I'd say
09:36:57 <shachaf> southeast forms a semilattice with southeast as the top !
09:36:58 <monqy> and southsouthwest, and westnorthwest
09:37:13 <monqy> westwestwest is boring
09:37:22 <monqy> three wests is overdone it!
09:37:41 <monqy> now you're getting somewhere
09:37:46 <monqy> is the somewhere: west????
09:37:52 <shachaf> data direction equals east or easteast or easteasteast
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09:38:54 <shachaf> monqy: did you know: i'm a bot! ?
09:39:09 <monqy> i always thought you were a shachaf.............
09:39:13 <shachaf> elliotts is also a bot :'(
09:39:15 <monqy> have i been lied too?????
09:39:30 <shachaf> monqy: what if i=am shachaf bot??
09:41:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: Indeed, almost a 3.5" floppy disk's worth!
09:41:25 <shachaf> what about: a 3.5' floppy disk!
09:42:28 <shachaf> > 0.11755102040816326 * (3.5*12 * 3.5*12)
09:42:50 <Deewiant> Oops, I'm too used to the command line
09:43:01 <shachaf> Deewiant: You're making life too easy.
09:43:19 <shachaf> I bet I can make it even more complicated than that.
09:43:20 <Deewiant> Yes, that's more than a zip disk!
09:43:20 <FreeFull> Note that 1.44MB floppies are actually 1440*1024 bytes
09:43:38 <shachaf> @google 1440*1024 bytes in megabytes
09:43:39 <lambdabot> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/121839
09:43:40 <lambdabot> Title: Determining Actual Disk Size: Why 1.44 MB Should Be 1.40 MB
09:43:40 <Deewiant> > 1440 * 1024 * 144 / 1024 / 1024
09:43:57 <shachaf> thanks microsoft knowledge base
09:44:05 <shachaf> thicrosoft thowledge thase
09:46:43 <FreeFull> " There are 1024 bytes in a kilobyte, not 1000. " I'm glad Microsoft doesn't listen to HDD manufactureres
09:48:22 <fizzie> FreeFull: A HDD manufacturer would've called it a 1.47 MB floppy.
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09:51:13 <shachaf> > 1000 `isApproximatelyEqualTo` 1024
09:51:35 <Deewiant> > 1 `isApproximatelyEqualTo` 1024
09:52:56 <Deewiant> > 999 `isApproximatelyEqualTo` 1024
09:52:58 <monqy> @src isApproximatelyEqualTo
09:52:58 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe you made a typo?
09:53:04 <Deewiant> Methinks it's been optimized for this situation.
09:54:58 <fizzie> Ideas how to disable Gnome desktop icons "nowadays" (Ubuntu 12.04)? The old 'gconftool /apps/nautilus/preferences/show_desktop to false' doesn't seem to do anything.
09:55:07 <fizzie> I think this is the Gnome 3 fallback mode or whatever.
09:56:15 <fizzie> Google speaks of a 'dconf-editor' but I don't have a thing like that.
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09:59:18 <fizzie> And apparently I can't run the dconf-editor binary from the package because "Settings schema 'ca.desrt.dconf-editor.Settings' is not installed".
09:59:44 <Deewiant> Why make things simple when they could be complex?
10:00:24 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure, to be honest.
10:01:00 <fizzie> I just thought, since they've bothered to fiddle together a "Gnome 3 fallback + XMonad" session file in the package, I might as well use it, since it's so close to what I used to do here.
10:03:36 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just live with the icons for now; at least it'll make me clean up the ~/Desktop/ for some cruft that has inexplicably ended up in there.
10:03:58 <FreeFull> Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_%28desktop_environment%29
10:06:03 <fizzie> I can't be bothered to actually start attempting to install something on this thing, as a non-root person.
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10:28:17 <fizzie> "Finally, the Department's Jura IMPRESSA Z5 coffee machine is (again) back from the maintenance -- Please observe that the IMPRESSA has a new usage policy: YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO USE THE IMPRESSA, unless you follow the usage policy at [url]. The reason for the strict policy is that the IMPRESSA has spent more time in maintenance than in active coffee service, because it has been broken several ...
10:28:23 <fizzie> ... times because of improper use. It is rather surprising in how many ways a complex scientific instrument like IMPRESSA, which has many buttons to push and parts to pull out etc., can be broken."
10:28:29 <fizzie> Man, this coffee machine is truly the gift that keeps on giving.
10:28:38 <fizzie> I don't even drink coffee, but the emails still manage to amuse.
10:30:34 <fizzie> The policy specifies Class A, B, C and D licenses for the coffee machine, and lists actions that you may perform at the different levels.
10:32:14 <fizzie> [Without a license:] "2. You are allowed to perform ONLY the following action: a. IF the display has a text COFFEE READY: i. Place a cup under the hot water spout (11). ii. Press the desired product button (10–12). iii. Wait WITHOUT TOUCHING ANYTHING until the cup is filled and the text COFFEE READY is displayed again. DO NOT TOUCH JURA if any other text than COFFEE READY is displayed, ...
10:32:20 <fizzie> ... strange sounds are emitted, or there are no lights, or if there are blinking lights! Instead, please contact a Jura License holder."
10:32:28 <fizzie> Coffee machines: serious business.
10:33:28 <fizzie> There's also a Google Docs provided online exam for qualification to the first level (Class A).
10:40:27 <fizzie> "c. Escape from the crime scene."
10:40:31 <fizzie> The answers are not bad either.
10:41:03 <Deewiant> Yes, they provide most of the amusement.
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10:55:25 <Sgeo> I'm going to make my computer cry in suffering and try to install Eclipse+Counterclockwise
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11:04:23 <HackEgo> ARC_KOEN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
11:10:34 <FreeFull> I didn't know it had an ALL-CAPITALS version
11:10:52 <Sgeo> Well, now you do.
11:10:56 <Sgeo> The link doesn't work though.
11:11:08 <HackEgo> ＦＲＥＥＦＵＬＬ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮ
11:11:47 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
11:11:57 <fizzie> The link is cut off, isn't it?
11:12:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: WELcome: not found
11:12:27 <fizzie> The mixed-caps link doesn't work either, though.
11:15:15 <fizzie> If I type in http://ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ.ＯＲＧ/ in Chrome, it goes to esolangs.org.
11:15:49 <fizzie> "ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ.ＯＲＧ" only does a Google search, though.
11:15:58 <olsner> might be something they put in the idna "standard"
11:16:29 <shachaf> "i don't need a" "standard"
11:17:10 <fizzie> Straight-forward punycode on it would go to xn--mi7chahsld1af.xn--si7cpaj which I doubt exists.
11:17:16 <fizzie> Especially the xn--si7cpaj TLD.
11:18:07 <HackEgo> 273) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
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11:49:08 <Sgeo> Oh hey, GreaseMonkey's getting involved in Homestuck
11:49:15 <Sgeo> </creepy-stalker>
11:49:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: It goes there in Firefox (15) as well.
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12:07:43 <FreeFull> http://ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ.ＯＲＧ/ goes to esolangs.org in Firefox. http://xn--mi7chahsld1af.xn--si7cpaj/ doesn't though
12:13:53 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes#Quine This is the best quine ever
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14:47:18 <kmc> LC_ALL=fi_IRC.UTF-8
14:48:33 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that you can use three-letter language codes in the first part, too, often.
14:52:11 <kmc> presumably you can't use EN for the second part, though?
14:56:40 <Gregor> Beast Jesus is best Jesus.
14:58:49 <kmc> LC_ALL=kw_GB.UTF-8
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15:13:14 <boily> LC_ALL=fr_CA.utf-8
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15:27:55 <kmc> hi donmarquis
15:28:47 <donmarquis> hey mate do you know anyway of writing an if statement if
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15:30:32 <kmc> use the loop commands []
15:30:54 <kmc> with a body which makes sure the loop condition will be false on the next iteration
15:32:56 <FreeFull> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>+[<..>-]
15:33:54 <FreeFull> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>+[<..>-]
15:34:00 <FreeFull> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[<..>-]
15:35:12 <kmc> [foo] means while (current cell is not 0) { foo }
15:35:30 <kmc> so if the end of "foo" makes the current cell 0, by decrementing it or by moving to a different cell
15:35:38 <kmc> then it's equivalent to if (current cell is not 0) { ... }
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15:38:03 <FreeFull> Don't try to use brainfuck for anything serious unless you really want to
15:38:42 <atriq> I think that's true of most esolangs
15:38:50 <atriq> Maybe except Funge-98
15:39:45 <donmarquis> well i want to write a simple program :P nothing serious though
15:40:42 <FreeFull> Well, brainfuck is called a turing tarpit for a reason
15:41:11 <FreeFull> I bet most people who work with brainfuck actually end up writing programs to write the brainfuck for them
15:48:58 <fizzie> Oh, right; well, irc_FI, for the Finnish regional variant of the "IRC" language, and fi_IRC for the Finnish language as spoken in IRC, then.
15:51:36 <fizzie> atriq: I'm not sure you should be advocating even Funge-98 use in a "serious context" without the unless-you-want-to qualifier, even though it's admittedly a more feasible proposition than many other esolangs.
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16:53:11 <Sgeo> I am beginning to hate Eclipse
16:53:18 <Sgeo> (Only because of what I assume is a bug)
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17:17:19 <Arc_Koen> hmm I'm trying to write an ocaml interpreter for Fueue http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fueue
17:18:34 <Arc_Koen> it's a queue-based language; apparently when the top element is a function, you must first check if the following elements are values of the appropriate type to be that function's parameters
17:18:52 <Arc_Koen> except some function (+, *, /, for instance) are expecting two elements
17:19:56 <Arc_Koen> and I can only "look" at the first element; if I want to see the second, I must first pop the first element... and if the second element is not suited for the function, I have to put the first one back on top of the queue...
17:20:09 <Arc_Koen> which is not possible since it's a queue
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17:21:35 <Arc_Koen> would you guys have any ideas? (besides pushing the first element at the end of the queue and then making a full queue rotation to have it on top again)
17:22:05 <Sgeo> Use a structure other than a queue?
17:23:34 <Arc_Koen> are you implying I got fooled by the "Fueue is a http://esolangs.org/wiki/Queue-based http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language" at the beginning of the wiki page?
17:24:31 <Sgeo> You have no way of peeking ahead in the queue?
17:25:02 <Sgeo> Wouldn't be a problem if you used Haskell, since you would be able to peek, yet still have the old queue
17:25:18 <Arc_Koen> I guess I'd have to make my own chained-list queue
17:25:20 <Sgeo> It's mutability's fault :p
17:25:39 <Arc_Koen> ocaml only allows me to pop the first element, peek the first element, and push an element
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17:31:22 <atriq> You could temporarily store them in a different data structure
17:39:26 <zzo38> With Haskell it is possible to program in what is allowed and what is not allowed.
17:42:16 <Sgeo> Funny, I'm beginning to get frustrated with Clojure sandboxes
17:43:28 <atriq> Oh, that's not a good sign
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17:44:43 <zzo38> I was trying to invent and implement WizardCard programming language, although I might want to change it more similar to Lisp and/or Scheme. It is for compiling into Haskell. Maybe there should be an explicit syntax to indicate where a symbol is declared though, and I think it should have rulebooks like in Inform 7 but first-class rulebooks (as well as first-class functions).
17:45:42 <zzo38> However I am not exactly sure. Opinions?
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17:46:47 <zzo38> One of the features I intended it to have is some mechanism by which it can read text from Magic: the Gathering cards and similar games and convert them into the AST.
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18:24:31 <atriq> Today's Freefall is quite good
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18:29:49 <FreeFull> Sam doesn't need to know what he's doing
18:31:47 <atriq> I also liked today's Girl Genius
18:32:10 <atriq> Today's xkcd reminded me of an old Brawl in the Family
18:38:26 <kmc> i like http://what-if.xkcd.com/8/
18:38:39 <atriq> Yeah, that was good
18:38:41 <kmc> except that i don't think randall munroe knows what "light rail" is
18:39:01 <kmc> but, common mistake :)
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18:57:02 <Sgeo> Are Clojure developers always going to make the language uglier in their pursuit of performance?
18:57:32 <atriq> Clojure's the lispy one for JVM, right?
18:59:03 <Sgeo> Performance is the reason arithmetic doesn't automatically go up to BigInteger if needed
19:00:39 <kmc> nearly every language does that to some degree
19:00:50 <kmc> almost no language "always" does that
19:03:00 <kmc> that one looks like Roberto from Futurama
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19:18:47 <kmc> i like trains
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19:29:21 <boily> kmc: trains are cool. we just don't have enough of them here to satisfy the generic trainspotter's appetite.
19:29:36 * boily has repressed trainspotter tendencies.
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19:35:06 <kmc> here = where?
19:35:25 <fizzie> I've seen very few trains on #esoteric.
19:36:13 <boily> kmc: here = montréal.
19:38:41 <fizzie> I'd paste U+1F684 HIGH-SPEED TRAIN, U+1F685 HIGH-SPEED TRAIN WITH BULLET NOSE and U+1F686 TRAIN to remedy the #esoteric train situation, but I'm afraid some piece of software or another would just eat the astral planes, and then it'd be all embarrassing.
19:39:20 <fizzie> Doesn't look very promising.
19:39:28 <fizzie> (Nothing ever works out right.)
19:40:28 <fizzie> Well, I'unno; in my bouncer log they do seem like reasonable UTF-8 sequences.
19:40:37 <fizzie> Don't have the fonts, of course.
19:42:38 <kmc> i don't have the fonts, and mosh doesn't have the character info either
19:43:11 <olsner> there was a trains and trams theme day on #esoteric a while ago, I think it was when kmc was in estonia
19:43:14 <kmc> boily: well, there is a metro at least
19:43:52 <olsner> it might also have been a few sentences about trains, but a trains and trams theme day sounds like more fun
19:44:08 <kmc> an interesting system, with rubber tires and automatic train control
19:45:05 <kmc> and electromagnetic brakes
19:46:03 <fizzie> There was a plan to upgrade the Helsinki metro trains to some kind of automatic control, in negotiations right this summer, and it was this || close to happening, but at the last possible moments the talks with Siemens (I think) broke down, and they opted not to.
19:46:41 <fizzie> At least I think that's what happened. They announced they weren't going ahead with the deal, then they announced they actually still are going ahead with it, and finally they announced again that it's not going to happen.
19:46:48 <fizzie> They may have flopped once more for all I know.
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19:56:33 <boily> kmc: the metro is nice, if not a little bit too warm in the summer.
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20:01:26 <oerjan> <oklopol> so this dr who thing is british or did i take the wrong one? <-- now you got me considering the idea of an american remake...
20:03:47 <olsner> omg, an american doctor who ... that could be the worst thing ever
20:03:49 <fizzie> oerjan: The "Doctor What", then?
20:05:16 <olsner> I think the americans will have difficulty understanding that kind of wordplay
20:05:37 <olsner> it would be "Doctor Time"
20:05:38 <oklopol> except that the american version is always better
20:06:21 <oklopol> doctor who is a play on words? :D
20:06:57 <oerjan> <elliott> Oh. No oerjan. <-- shocking.
20:07:08 <oklopol> i thought it just meant like "doctor *who*??"
20:07:16 <oerjan> i shall assume he wanted me to ban shachaf for being a soundnfury/cheater chimera
20:07:19 <oklopol> because no one knows who he is and shit
20:08:06 <fizzie> oerjan: That's an eminently portmanteauable word-pair. I shall be saying "oh, noerjan" a lot in the future, if I just remember to.
20:08:07 <oerjan> oklopol: i think it's clearly established his name is not "who", at least
20:09:01 <oerjan> fizzie: that's ok my log search will find that.
20:09:30 <oerjan> shachaf: the logs clearly suggest it
20:09:56 <oerjan> <shachaf> soundnfury 'n' cheater combined
20:11:51 -!- elliott has joined.
20:12:40 <oerjan> i suddenly have this _remarkable_ sense of deja vu
20:13:17 <elliott> I promise to voice oerjan.
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20:14:33 <oerjan> that oerjan guy doesn't deserve a voice, he just blathers nonsense.
20:14:45 <elliott> OK. I promise to voice ais523.
20:15:05 <oerjan> will that make him complete feather?
20:16:00 <elliott> It'll just be whatever is best for the universe.
20:16:42 <oerjan> i dunno, whatever is best for the universe has a tendency to be painful for me
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20:17:07 <elliott> oerjan: But you are the universe!
20:17:55 <elliott> oerjan: But there is no fear! I also guarantee this.
20:17:58 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, were you telling oerjan to ban me?
20:17:58 <oerjan> i read that "the egg" thing, i thought it seemed depressing
20:18:32 <oerjan> shachaf: he never said what he wanted but that was the obvious conclusion.
20:18:53 <shachaf> elliott: Did you hear that I'm a soundnfury/cheater chimera?
20:19:33 <elliott> I won't ban shachaf. That's my promise.
20:20:35 <oerjan> http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html
20:20:40 <elliott> olsner: I won't ban shachaf. But maybe I'll op you.
20:21:21 <elliott> oerjan: Did you ever read Fine Structure?
20:21:31 <HackEgo> 557) <ais523> this strikes me as probably better than a singularity, because you can't trust a random AI, but you can probably trust olsner
20:22:14 <olsner> oh great, apparently you can probably trust me :(
20:22:17 <elliott> shachaf: Did you ever read that blog post?
20:23:15 <oerjan> he meant what he said and he said what he meant, an olsner is faithful 100%
20:27:20 <elliott> oerjan: How about you just op olsner?
20:28:13 <oerjan> what would the world look like if i started opping swedes
20:28:17 <olsner> I read that as "<elliott> olsner: How about you just op olsner?"
20:31:33 <elliott> oerjan: olsner doesn't even count as a Swede.
20:36:43 <elliott> as you can see, olsner is flawed
20:41:06 <olsner> elliott: pretty sure I've read about it but I don't remember which one it is
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20:42:00 <elliott> shachaf: So did you read the post?
20:42:23 <olsner> elliott: do you have followup questions that would motivate me googling for rust to refresh my memory?
20:43:37 <olsner> neat, "It is designed to be practical" (says wikipedia anyway)
20:44:06 <Sgeo> elliott, did you finish FS?
20:44:13 <elliott> olsner: They have closures and stuff.
20:44:18 <kmc> WOW CLOSURES
20:44:22 <kmc> BLEEDING EDGE TECHNOLOGY
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20:45:04 <olsner> oh, remind me how closures doesn't really mean what most people think about when languages "have closures"
20:45:08 <elliott> kmc: Well, they're not allocating everything on the heap and so on, so it's not as trivial as it could be.
20:45:23 <kmc> yeah, Rust has some interesting uniqueness typing stuff going on
20:45:39 <kmc> it's an attempt at a new systems programming language, made by people who know OCaml and Haskell in addition to C and C++
20:45:45 <elliott> kmc: I like uniqueness types. But edwardk tells me they're bad because they stop you doing a bunch of optimisations you really want and stuff.
20:45:49 <olsner> hmm, wikipedia is bad for programming languages, it groups all the buzzwords in the first sentence making it sound like hogwash
20:45:49 <elliott> But I don't want to believe him, because they're nice.
20:46:13 <elliott> olsner: They have a tutorial thing.
20:46:23 <olsner> "an experimental, concurrent, multi-paradigm, compiled programming language [...] supporting pure-functional, concurrent-actor, imperative-procedural, and object-oriented styles."
20:46:51 <nortti_> do you have any experience with go?
20:46:53 <kmc> take Java, dumb it down even more, and then make the syntax weird enough that C elitists will accept it
20:47:10 <elliott> Go is pretty bad in a bunch of ways, but that's a silly way of putting it.
20:47:20 <elliott> (It doesn't really have objects, for one.)
20:47:40 <kmc> it has x.f(y) syntax of course it has objects!!!!!!!!
20:47:55 <elliott> objects, n. a module system
20:49:33 <nortti_> does it have anything good?
20:49:49 <kmc> it's a memory-safe language attempting to eat C's market share
20:49:55 <kmc> this is good
20:50:01 <olsner> hmm, rust limits type inference to local variables? sounds a bit boring
20:50:05 <elliott> i suspect nortti_ would like go
20:50:29 <oerjan> because you're a go getter
20:50:31 <zzo38> What is uniqueness types?
20:50:34 <kmc> it's hard to replace C because you have to convince C programmers that the new thing is not a slight to their manhood
20:50:48 <kmc> you have to make your new language seem weird and H4RDC0R3
20:51:21 <zzo38> There are many programming languages for different use.
20:51:32 <kmc> everyone knows Java is for "idiot code monkeys"
20:51:49 <elliott> kmc: Have you written anything in ATS?
20:51:51 <kmc> i'll gladly accept a near certainty of exploitable security holes in exchange for not being an "idiot code monkey"
20:52:00 <kmc> ATS is incomprehensible
20:52:07 <elliott> That's what they say about Haskell.
20:52:14 <olsner> incomprehensible === really really good
20:52:21 <elliott> (I find ATS code usually looks pretty reasonable if you're not actually writing a algorithm with a proof of correctness.)
20:52:26 <elliott> (Then it just looks like Agda.)
20:53:16 <olsner> the only ATS code I've read is from the shootouts, and those programs are all written by a madman
20:53:29 <kmc> i thought those were basically C
20:53:59 <kmc> using some ATS embedded C feature
20:57:47 <elliott> kmc: You should write a Haskell compiler that compiles down to code faster than C.
20:57:53 <elliott> Also make it better than Haskell.
20:58:51 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, that already exists.
20:58:58 <lambdabot> http://community.haskell.org/~ndm/supero/
20:59:04 <lambdabot> monochrom says: einstein's theory implies that haskell cannot be faster than c
20:59:58 <zzo38> How can Einstein's theory imply that Haskell cannot be faster than C? I think it would depend much on the compilers and the computers it runs on.
21:00:24 <oerjan> <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes#Quine This is the best quine ever <-- you're welcome :)
21:00:26 <shachaf> zzo38: Einstein's theory implies that it cannot be faster than c.
21:00:28 <elliott> shachaf: I don't think Supero is better than Haskell.
21:00:33 <elliott> The language it compiles, I mean.
21:00:45 <elliott> @ask monqy <zzo38> How can Einstein's theory imply that Haskell cannot be faster than C? I think it would depend much on the compilers and the computers it runs on.
21:01:44 <shachaf> monqy should quit smoking. :-(
21:01:45 <Sgeo> zzo38, it's a joke, pretending to confuse C the language with c the physics constant.
21:02:03 -!- heroux has joined.
21:02:11 <elliott> oerjan: Also if you op me I will kick shachaf.
21:02:20 <olsner> shachaf: also it's much better now that Sgeo explained it
21:02:39 <Sgeo> I don't like it when people are left out of the loop
21:02:55 <FreeFull> olsner: Did you write that quine?
21:03:00 <shachaf> elliott: You promised to not kick shachaf. :-(
21:03:28 <kmc> #define ever (;;)
21:03:30 <elliott> Sgeo: I left you out of the loop.
21:03:37 <shachaf> @ask monqy elliott = el-lie-ott. proof:: 14:03 <elliott> shachaf: I lied.
21:03:46 <kmc> el lie bot?
21:03:46 <oerjan> <shachaf> monqy should quit smoking. :-( <-- he clearly took up smoking to ease the "hi" abstinence
21:05:26 <shachaf> There are better ways to get hi. :-(
21:06:33 <elliott> (Where did this monqy smoking thing come from?)
21:06:35 <oerjan> shachaf: technically i think he only promised not to _ban_ you
21:07:00 <shachaf> @ask monqy never mind elliott was telling the truth. he lied when he said he lied :'(
21:07:08 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )).
21:07:16 <oerjan> FreeFull: i think you mistabexpanded
21:07:39 <elliott> oerjan: Don't lie. olsner deserves the credit.
21:07:44 <elliott> olsner: You're so good at ///!
21:07:46 <oerjan> well generated it with haskell
21:08:31 <olsner> FreeFull: I wrote the quine, don't listen to the norwegian
21:08:59 <shachaf> FreeFull: I wrote that quine, don't listen to the Norwegian and the Swede.
21:09:03 <elliott> op me and i'll kick oerjan for lying
21:10:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i suddenly wonder, does elliott mean something in hebrew?
21:10:50 <oerjan> it almost sounds like it could be a hebrew word
21:11:41 <olsner> not enough consonants, I think
21:11:50 <ais523> just heard on the news: "President Obama has declared Louisiana an emergency state – a state of emergency"
21:12:10 <oerjan> ais523: which news, i wonder
21:12:32 <ais523> I think they got it wrong twice
21:12:43 <ais523> and it's one of those sentences that's just wrong enough to be confusing
21:12:56 <shachaf> oerjan: Nothing in particular, I think.
21:13:15 <oerjan> darn, i was hoping for "incorrigible liar"
21:14:56 <olsner> oerjan: you're the lying norwegian, why don't you just add that to the wisdom file?
21:15:03 <oerjan> shachaf: that sounds bad
21:15:10 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation.
21:16:00 <oerjan> `echo "Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian." >wisdom/oerjan
21:16:03 <HackEgo> "Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian." >wisdom/oerjan
21:16:15 <oerjan> olsner: it means both crispy and crazy in norwegian
21:16:19 <elliott> oerjan: Ew, double-spacing.
21:16:24 <shachaf> `echo "Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian." >wisdom/oerjan
21:16:27 <HackEgo> "Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian." >wisdom/oerjan
21:16:35 <shachaf> `run echo "Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian." >wisdom/oerjan
21:16:43 <olsner> shachaf: I think the corresponding swedish word does mean brittle as well
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21:16:54 <oerjan> olsner: oh, that in norwegian too
21:17:29 <olsner> but for crispy stuff we'd usually use krispig, not spröd
21:18:43 <olsner> oerjan: btw, I meant that you should add to elliott's file that his name means incorrigible liar in hebrew
21:18:55 <oerjan> also "sprø som selleri" vaguely means something like "mad as a hatter"
21:19:04 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
21:19:26 <oerjan> olsner: hm i am somewhat loathe to edit zzospeak
21:19:57 <elliott> zzo38 did not write my entry.
21:20:33 <oerjan> elliott: well then it's a good impression.
21:20:56 <oerjan> always the argumentative
21:21:11 <oerjan> also "loathe" seems to be only a verb, what am i really thinking of?
21:21:48 <oerjan> it's even listed under "not to be confused with"
21:22:30 <olsner> oh, there are few things as annoying as realizing that you've needlessly listened to half the enterprise theme without using your ability to skip forward in the video
21:22:57 <shachaf> What about: realizing that you've needlessly listened to three quarters of the enterprise theme without using your ability to skip forward in the video
21:23:09 <shachaf> Or: realizing that you've needlessly listened to seven eighths the enterprise theme without using your ability to skip forward in the video
21:23:34 <elliott> olsner: It's such a good theme, though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO GOOD.
21:23:44 <shachaf> What's the enterprise theme?
21:23:56 <shachaf> Is that the Jave theme song?
21:24:50 <shachaf> Is it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8OpsPok6iQ
21:25:00 <olsner> elliott: you know, I have a vague memory of arguing that it was not so bad
21:26:30 <olsner> otoh, the theme is not as bad as captain archer
21:28:35 -!- Yonkie has joined.
21:35:13 <HackEgo> Yonkie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:35:15 <elliott> kmc: What should I port 100k lines of C++ to?
21:35:22 <elliott> (Well, more like 80-90k lines.)
21:54:20 <olsner> hmm, I may have accidentally tried to change the topic
21:55:17 <kmc> once again everyone is obsessing over languages
21:55:29 <kmc> i thought that usage of "port" would mean a new platform
21:56:31 <shachaf> #esoteric stop obsessing over languages!!
21:56:35 <elliott> kmc: The obsession is: I don't want to write any more C++.
21:56:42 <elliott> So I want to port the code to something else.
21:56:56 <shachaf> Anyway, C++ isn't that bad.
21:56:56 <olsner> if it's a platform port you're after, you want to port it to Symbian 2nd edition
21:57:02 <olsner> I think it comes with gcc 2.7.2
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21:59:52 <HackEgo> nys: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:59:58 <nys> i've already
21:59:59 <elliott> i snine with my little nie
22:00:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: WElCOME: not found
22:00:09 <shachaf> ...How do you mistype that?
22:00:18 <elliott> nys: i've already rrgh too
22:01:37 <olsner> shachaf: I think the unspoken rule is that you provide an alternate welcome text when you do that
22:01:44 <nys> i've already been welcomed twice is what i meant
22:01:55 <shachaf> olsner: It was unspoken until you spoke it. :-(
22:02:01 <nys> don't u remember me
22:02:02 -!- Arc_Koen has left.
22:02:07 <oerjan> the formerly unspoken rule
22:02:11 <olsner> shachaf: alas it has become the spoken rule
22:02:11 <elliott> I am bad at remembering people. :(
22:02:22 <oerjan> nys: your nick is too short to remember
22:02:24 <nys> well i guess i haven't really done anything memorable :3
22:02:39 <oerjan> although fortunately it means "sneeze" in norwegian
22:02:59 <nys> that's so cool
22:03:00 <shachaf> olsner: A spoken unspoken rule.
22:03:11 <nys> is it the actual word or the onomatapoeia
22:03:24 <oerjan> shachaf: maybe we'll still be ok as long as no one reads it aloud
22:03:44 <nys> this is awesome
22:03:45 <oerjan> the onomatopoeion would be "atsjo"
22:03:50 <olsner> the imperative form of the verb even
22:04:29 <olsner> oh? that's nysning here
22:06:47 <nys> well, nyssa is my actual name
22:07:32 <oerjan> i don't think that means anything in norwegian, although it sounds like it could be swedish
22:07:37 <olsner> one too many s'es or it would've been "to sneeze"
22:10:34 <oerjan> it could be the plural of http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nyss , although no one ever uses that.
22:11:11 <oerjan> (other than in the set phrase, that is)
22:11:40 <oerjan> erm http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nyss#Etymology_2
22:11:51 <oerjan> the cods have the wrong plural ending
22:12:22 <nys> well that doesn't seem as cute as a sneeze
22:12:40 <elliott> we'll just call you sneezy
22:13:25 <oerjan> elliott is grumpy, or would that be me
22:13:49 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, read that post.
22:14:04 <olsner> oerjan: norwegians lack the ability to be anything but cheerful, must be elliott being grumpy
22:14:21 * oerjan cheerfully swats olsner -----###
22:16:13 <olsner> getting swatted with cheerfulness was a weird sensation
22:18:22 <olsner> ban shachaf, he's threatening to leave IRC
22:20:36 <olsner> elliott: "<shachaf> I should probably leave IRC for a while, really."
22:20:45 <olsner> uttered just moments ago in another channel
22:21:08 <shachaf> elliott: Remember revenantphx?
22:22:00 <shachaf> olsner: Make elliott make me read that post.
22:23:52 <coppro> elliott: how would you implement a logging system in Haskell that allows you to pull out logs of actions affecting only a given subset of things
22:23:55 <olsner> elliott: am I interested in helping shachaf getting you to convince him to read that post?
22:24:14 <coppro> (analogous to grabbing all commit messages that affect a certain file
22:24:41 <elliott> coppro: that sounds easy but uninteresting to write
22:25:02 <coppro> elliott: what would you use, though? Just a Writer?
22:25:25 <olsner> shachaf: apparently I am not interested in helping you
22:25:30 -!- monqy has joined.
22:25:37 <elliott> either Writer directly, or just a free/prompt monad and handle the actual logging in a backend
22:25:41 <shachaf> @ask monqy why hello there
22:25:42 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:25:49 <monqy> oh hey elliott is here !!!
22:26:11 <elliott> coppro: free monad and/or prompt monad. (they are basically equivalent)
22:26:36 <shachaf> elliott: What's this called? newtype Stream m a b = Stream { runStream :: m (Either b (a, Stream m a b)) }
22:28:02 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know: Robert Harper posted another post about how laziness is bad!
22:29:45 <coppro> elliott: also what's your record on nested monads?
22:30:00 <shachaf> A monad nested... INSIDE ITSELF
22:30:17 <shachaf> M O N A D C E oerjan: kick shachaf :'(
22:30:41 <coppro> elliott: how many monads have you nested at once?
22:30:48 <elliott> I don't know what a "nested monad" is.
22:30:54 <elliott> Do you mean monad transformers?
22:33:17 <elliott> Probably like 5-6, but deeply-nested monad transformer stacks are a sign of bad design IMO
22:33:35 <elliott> (Even monad transformers themselves are fairly ugly in a few ways, but some use of them tends to be a bit unavoidable.)
22:33:42 <shachaf> If you have a deeply-nested monad transformer stack...
22:33:53 <shachaf> You'd better arrange for it to be a deeply-tested monad transformer stack.
22:34:36 <coppro> elliott: well I'm looking at 3 different levels of nestedness
22:34:37 <oerjan> i cannot kick him, he's stuck in a non-allocating infinite loop
22:34:53 <oerjan> it's non-allocating because there is no actual content
22:34:57 <elliott> coppro: you might be doing something wrong then ;)
22:35:07 <coppro> elliott: ok well I'm trying to write scripts for managing Agora state
22:35:28 <coppro> elliott: the idea is that the log can be a (things, text) pair
22:35:41 <shachaf> elliott: Have you read GHC code? :-(
22:36:06 <elliott> coppro: OK. (It probably shouldn't be a tuple.)
22:36:18 <coppro> elliott: or some other type which has the same info
22:37:18 <coppro> then to make it easier, the 'things' half should be auto-generated based on operations, since some operations might affect multiple things (e.g. sending rubles to change voting limits would be logged both on the assessor and general secretary logs)
22:37:36 <coppro> the obvious implementation of this is a Writer backed by a Set
22:37:59 <coppro> possibly a third layer for emails
22:38:10 <coppro> (but that layer is less necessary)
22:39:25 <coppro> elliott: does this seem sane?
22:39:57 <elliott> Set isn't even a monad... "Writer (Set a) r" doesn't involve any monad transformers
22:40:05 <elliott> (well, except that Writer is implemented over WriterT over Identity)
22:40:16 <elliott> (in fact, even if Set was a monad, that would not be a transformer stack)
22:41:17 <coppro> but I'd have two Writers
22:41:22 <coppro> don't think I'd need transformers here
22:41:29 <coppro> but with Writer there's no difference
22:41:42 <elliott> I'm not sure why you need two Writers here, maybe I'm missing something
22:43:08 <coppro> one to turn actions on things into a set of tags
22:43:15 <coppro> and another to create the actual log
22:43:38 <elliott> What would your transformer stack look like in code?
22:44:22 <coppro> haven't thought that far in advance :P
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23:26:47 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your monad transformer stack
23:28:32 <elliott> perhaps bonghitz will fix your monad transformer stack
23:28:48 * oerjan detects possible meme, still confused
23:36:16 <elliott> monqy: explain bonghitz to oerjan please
23:36:43 <monqy> I don't think bonghitz can be explained
23:39:18 <oerjan> i'm not referring to the meaning of "bong hits" as the meme, it just looked like "perhaps bonghits will" might be a meme
23:40:24 -!- Nisstyre_ has joined.
23:41:26 <oerjan> i find hits but no explanation of the source
23:42:37 <kmc> it's from jerkcity
23:42:42 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity490.html [nsfw language]
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