00:16:37 <Sgeo> I think I'd like a Lisp-like language where all functions and macros accepted keyword arguments only, as in all arguments need to be keyworded, and order of arguments does not matter
00:17:28 <kmc> interesting
00:17:59 <kmc> (+ addend=2 augend=2) => 4
00:20:42 <ion> expression=(function=+ addend=2 augend=2) => result=4
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01:34:20 <kmc> 'President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia piloted a motorized hang glider over an Arctic wilderness area while guiding a flock of migratory birds toward their winter habitat'
01:38:22 <kmc> Hello Future Trout Magnet, There are 42.8 million Americans
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02:51:16 * Sgeo is now watching the dark underbelly of the Clojure communit
02:51:25 <Sgeo> Apparently, the mailing list is insanely difficult to join
03:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> try asking them if O(ln n) is equivalent to O(log_32 n).
03:28:43 <oerjan> poor people
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03:35:53 <kmc> lols
03:36:14 * kmc is researching obscure local political offices in preparation to vote in a primary election tomorrow
03:36:54 <Sgeo> Well, one random person appears to be unaware
03:39:39 <Sgeo> <dnolen_> Sgeo: textbook same - in practice could be more different.
03:51:23 <oerjan> > 0o678
03:51:24 <lambdabot>   55
03:52:12 <oerjan> > (+) 0o678
03:52:13 <lambdabot>   63
03:54:03 <oerjan> naturally caleskell ruins the experiment
03:55:58 * kmc rage
04:03:18 <Sgeo> kmc, ?
04:04:05 <zzo38> How do you get 63?
04:04:29 <ion> @type o678
04:04:30 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `o678'
04:05:20 <ion> Oh, huh. I have totally missed that Haskell has 0o syntax.
04:05:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think i shall leave that as an exercise :)
04:05:54 <shachaf> @yarr
04:05:54 <lambdabot> Shiver me timbers!
04:05:56 <shachaf> heegan
04:06:16 <ion> What’s, shachaf, up?
04:06:35 <shachaf> That's iggrammatical, ion.
04:06:39 <shachaf> Wow, that's a great word!
04:06:41 <shachaf> Iggramatical.
04:06:51 <oerjan> very cromulent, like ignobel
04:06:57 <shachaf> It looks like I invented it!
04:07:25 <ion> !
04:07:37 <ion> ITYM “that’s, ion, iggrammatical”.
04:07:52 <shachaf> That, ion,'s iggrammatical.
04:09:44 <oerjan> ion't know wuddat means
04:13:26 <Sgeo> > (+) 1
04:13:27 <lambdabot>   Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (t -> t)
04:13:27 <lambdabot>    arising from a use of `...
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04:13:45 <Sgeo> :type 0o678
04:13:52 <Sgeo> @type 0o678
04:13:53 <lambdabot> forall t t1. (Num (t1 -> t), Num t1) => t
04:13:57 <Sgeo> @type 678
04:13:58 <lambdabot> forall t. (Num t) => t
04:14:13 <Sgeo> ....right
04:14:18 * Sgeo walks away slowly
04:14:22 <Sgeo> @type o
04:14:23 <lambdabot> Expr
04:14:43 <Sgeo> @type 0 o 678
04:14:44 <lambdabot> forall t t1. (Num (t1 -> t), Num t1) => t
04:15:07 <Sgeo> ion, it doesn't, I think
04:15:13 <Sgeo> > 0 o 678
04:15:14 <lambdabot>   0
04:15:26 <Sgeo> Ok, so ... huh
04:15:49 <Sgeo> > (+) 0 o 678
04:15:50 <lambdabot>   Couldn't match expected type `t1 -> t'
04:15:50 <lambdabot>         against inferred type `Simpl...
04:15:58 * Sgeo surrenders.
04:18:18 <oerjan> hint: the split is in a logical place when you realize it
04:18:54 <shachaf> insidioerjan
04:19:19 <oerjan> and also, i believe (+) 0o678 works also outside lambdabot
04:19:40 <oerjan> although not without the (+)
04:19:44 <shachaf> It had better.
04:20:48 <ion> sgeo: At least my GHC does.
04:21:03 <shachaf> Sg Eo!
04:21:28 <ion> heo
04:21:39 <shachaf> > hi "Sgeo"
04:21:40 <lambdabot>   Not in scope: `hi'
04:21:41 <shachaf> !
04:21:49 <oerjan> shocking
04:22:58 <ion> @let hi (dropWhile (`elem` "bcdfghjklmnpqrstvwxz") -> s) = text ("h" ++ s)
04:22:58 <lambdabot>   ViewPatterns is not enabled
04:23:32 <ion> @let hi = text . ('h':) . dropWhile (`elem` "bcdfghjklmnpqrstvwxz")
04:23:33 <lambdabot>  Defined.
04:23:37 <ion> > hi "sgeo"
04:23:39 <lambdabot>   heo
04:25:46 <Sgeo> So, 0o678 isn't actually anything?
04:26:05 <kmc> if that's supposed to be octal... 8 is not an octal digit
04:26:14 <kmc> an... octit?
04:26:44 <Sgeo> > :t 0o678
04:26:44 <Sgeo> :: (Num a, Num (a -> t)) => t
04:26:44 <lambdabot>   <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
04:26:51 <ion> 0o8 parses as 0 o8 but 0o7 parses as 7.
04:26:56 * Sgeo is playing at tryhaskell.org, hopefully that doesn't do oddities
04:27:00 <kmc> what a country
04:27:40 <kmc> Sgeo: rage at the fact that lambdabot is advertised and used as a tool for beginning haskell learners, and yet its behavior is confusing and nonstandard in ways that amount to inside jokes
04:27:40 <Sgeo> > (+) 0o67 8
04:27:41 <lambdabot>   63
04:27:52 <Sgeo> I assume ion knew that
04:28:11 <shachaf> ion knows everything*.
04:28:22 <ion> I know what i did last summer.
04:28:44 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think a Haskell CTF could have any interesting bugs you wouldn't have in other languages?
04:30:07 <zzo38>  What is "CTF"?
04:30:09 <Sgeo> kmc, what is there to rage about within Clojure?
04:30:41 <shachaf> zzo38: Corrupt the flowers.
04:30:53 <Sgeo> Capture The Flag
04:32:03 <shachaf> Consume the fruit
04:34:11 <ion> Capitate the females
04:35:33 <asiekierka> Create The Forks
04:35:42 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Are there any good guides for making macros that write macros?
04:35:42 <Sgeo> <casion> Sgeo: you scare me
04:35:52 <asiekierka> Sgeo: only one level of recursion?
04:35:59 <asiekierka> why not make macros that write macros that write macros
04:42:35 <oerjan> why not make fix (macros that write)
04:43:17 <shachaf> macros that write macros that macros write
04:43:28 <shachaf> Why not write macros that right wrongs?
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04:53:36 <zzo38> In some programming language, writing macros that writes macros works and in others won't work.
04:53:59 <zzo38> Such as, C macros does not have a code to write C macros.
04:55:36 <Sgeo> That, and that alone, is why C macros suck.
04:55:38 <Sgeo> </untrue>
04:58:01 <Sgeo> o.O arglist metadata?
04:59:40 <Gregor> Real men write C with M4 macros.
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05:35:26 <zzo38> TeX macros are allowed to define macros, as well as change the way further text is read.
05:35:52 <zzo38> Which can be very useful.
05:36:08 <shachaf> \hi{monqy}
05:38:54 <zzo38> A macro I sometimes use is this:  \def\ecall#1{\bgroup\edef\next{\egroup#1}\next}
05:39:33 <zzo38> Which does define a macro the defined macro is lost before it is finished being expanded.
05:39:49 <shachaf> \define{macro}
05:42:48 <Sgeo> defmacro! Everytime I look in your eyes
05:43:39 <shachaf> defmackerel
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05:47:42 <zzo38> Mostly, expansion in TeX cannot cause changes to values of registers and meanings of control sequences and so on, with one exception: The \csname command will define the control sequence it expands as to mean \relax if it is currently undefined.
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05:54:56 <zzo38> So something like (Global -> Free ((->) Token) [Token]) won't do (actually there are other reasons this won't do).
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06:27:43 <zzo38> But, C macros that do not have a code to write C macros, is one reason of C macros not very good.
06:32:26 <zzo38> I thought of idea make up a .NSF file which automatically composes some music and plays it, using the track number as a random number seed or other options perhaps.
07:00:32 <pikhq_> Gregor: Real men write M4 in M4M4
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07:30:51 <Sgeo> "No performance penalty
07:30:51 <Sgeo> Because Mirah directly targets the JVM�s type system and JVM bytecode, it performs exactly as well as Java"
07:31:11 <Sgeo> As far as I'm concerned, the JVM in and of itself is a performance penalty
07:34:41 <fizzie> Says you. Java's faster than C. (If you just pick the right benchmark.)
07:34:53 <shachaf> @quote monochrom einstein
07:34:54 <lambdabot> monochrom says: einstein's theory implies that haskell cannot be faster than c
07:35:30 <fizzie> But does it say anything about Java?!
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07:38:56 <itidus21> `pastelogs java.*einstein
07:39:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15424
07:39:52 <fizzie> Useful.
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07:40:07 <itidus21> `pastelogs einstein.*java
07:40:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11295
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07:53:16 <fizzie> Blarh. I was all set to go to my 10:30am breakfast/lunch, and then the restaurant in this building is closed for some kind of "private event", and I don't have time to go elsewhere since there's a meeting at 11am; and to add insult to injury, there's a strong smell of food since they're apparently cooking and setting up for that event.  #firstworldproblems
08:00:39 <Deewiant> You could've noticed the signs saying 'THE RESTAURANT IN THIS BUILDING IS CLOSED FOR SOME KIND OF "PRIVATE EVENT" ON THURSDAY' on any earlier day of the week.
08:01:29 <fizzie> I didn't see any signs.
08:01:44 <fizzie> Are you sure there are signs.
08:02:16 <Deewiant> I saw signs on Monday. (And haven't been there since then.)
08:02:52 <fizzie> I haven't eaten in this building this week, and I enter from the bicycle stand door and take the stairs there, so I suppose I've just missed them.
08:03:18 <Deewiant> Right, the signs would've been near the restaurant.
08:03:44 <fizzie> It would've been nice to have it in ruokalistat.net, but I suppose that's asking a bit too much.
08:04:36 <fizzie> They do have e.g. "Suljemme ravintolan tänään klo 14.00" for TUAS today. I guess it depends on whether the scrapers happen to pick the stuff up.
08:05:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, I don't know how that site gets its info.
08:05:57 <fizzie> Sometimes there's nonsense, so I think it's just kludgy scripts scraping the sites.
08:06:50 <fizzie> There are the yellow single-letter gluten-free/vegetarian/non-lactose indicators, sometimes those end up in the middle of the dishes, leading me to believe it's done by a regexp-replace.
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08:10:54 <atriq> I'm still in denial about school happening
08:11:04 <atriq> Here I am sitting in school
08:11:22 <atriq> Accessing IRC apparently through my school's mail server
08:12:32 <shachaf> kmc: The Stripe CTF slides etc. are up.
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08:47:19 <atriq> @tell Phantom_Hoover RE: Fiji shipping, Newfoundland has expensive shipping and I think so does Hawai'i
08:47:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:03:50 <shachaf> ion: What's that lambdabot command that has a lot of output?
10:03:55 <shachaf> The one that shows a raw IRC message.
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10:30:07 <elliott> @echo
10:30:07 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo"]} rest:""
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11:43:01 <itidus21> atriq: you're not sure if this is IRC or something which appears to be IRC?
11:43:22 <itidus21> oh... i get it the apparent part was whether its via the mail server
11:43:56 <fizzie> Apparently.
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12:19:26 <atriq> @messages
12:19:26 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
12:19:41 <shachaf> @yarr
12:19:41 <lambdabot> Avast!
12:19:52 <fizzie> Every time that happens, I get the urge to write a pointless sympathy message.
12:20:10 <shachaf> @ask fizzie thanks :')
12:20:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:20:25 <fizzie> Not the "@yarr" thing, the no-messages thing, I mean.
12:20:25 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:20:38 <fizzie> Hey, that's not two.
12:20:41 <fizzie> @messages
12:20:41 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 2m 24d 21h 54m 45s ago: could you run clustering and decoy analysis on the current hill plox?
12:20:41 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 31s ago: thanks :')
12:20:51 <shachaf> That's a long time.
12:20:53 <fizzie> Uh...
12:21:00 <fizzie> I do have said something here less than that ago.
12:21:12 <shachaf> Yes, but you probably missed the message back then!
12:21:27 <fizzie> Oh, right.
12:30:50 <atriq> My Fueue interpreter has devolved into a mess of varying levels of indentation
12:31:27 <atriq> I don't even know what I'm doing now
12:32:25 <fizzie> Perhaps you should endeavour to encode all the meaning into the indentations.
12:32:57 <atriq> I think first I shall try to work out what the meaning wants to be
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15:44:22 <atriq> @messages?
15:44:23 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
15:46:51 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, I sent you a message
15:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> @messages?
15:47:15 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:47:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It appears so.
15:47:24 <atriq> Yes
15:47:31 <atriq> It's not very important
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16:56:44 <itidus21> x = howmanydoesittaketoscrewinalightbulb(y)
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19:25:22 <ion> A Finnish ISP’s marketing material for an Internet plan touts that you’ll get up to five Gmail accounts. https://kauppa.dna.fi/tuotteet/laajakaista/Laajakaista/LKKXXL (“Tuotetiedot”)
19:27:40 <Arc_Koen> well at least he might not me lying
19:27:40 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:27:57 <Arc_Koen> which is more than most marketing materials can say
19:28:00 <Arc_Koen> @messages
19:28:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23h 7m 30s ago: <Arc_Koen> how do the category work anyway? is their a bot browsing all wiki pages and adding them to the right category pages? <-- it certainly updated immediately when
19:28:01 <lambdabot> i changed things yesterday
19:36:14 <kmc> a question from elsewhere: 'given the c99 standard, does it make sense (or is it even self-consistent) to have a representation for a signed bit field of length 1 that isn't two's complement? (and thus limited to {0, -1})'
19:36:19 <kmc> seems appropriate for this venue
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19:43:56 <FreeFull> What was the text to brainfuck function called again?
19:44:56 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: I'm afraid I have no idea what you're refering to
19:45:27 <FreeFull> ^t2bf test
19:45:31 <FreeFull> Nope
19:45:31 <itidus21> !txt2bf its probably not called this
19:45:39 <FreeFull> !txt2bf brainfuck
19:45:41 <itidus21> ^txt2bf its probably not called this either
19:45:54 <itidus21> humm
19:45:55 <FreeFull> >txt2bf a
19:46:06 <itidus21> `pastelogs shubshub
19:46:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23467
19:46:49 <itidus21> !bf_txtgen aha
19:46:53 <EgoBot> ​55 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.+++++++.-------.>. [41]
19:47:44 <itidus21> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.+++++++.-------.>.
19:47:44 <fungot> aha.
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20:14:51 <FireFly> !bf_txtgen abcabc
20:14:54 <EgoBot> ​50 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.--.+.+.>-. [79]
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20:17:21 <FireFly> The '-' before the last dot confuses me.  Wouldn't that output a trailing 255-byte, instead of null?
20:17:33 <FireFly> (assuming single-byte cells & wraparound)
20:17:36 <atriq> EOF = -1
20:19:47 <FreeFull> What confuses me is the >><< in the loop
20:20:27 <atriq> It's not perfectly desinged
20:20:30 <atriq> *designed
20:20:48 <atriq> In fact, I'd venture that to perfectly design it would be an excersize in futility
20:20:53 <FreeFull> Writing a brainfuck optimiser should be interesting
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21:26:21 <shachaf> kmc: They're getting rid of QSem in the next release of GHC. Apparently it's broken.
21:26:27 <kmc> great
21:26:38 <kmc> broken how?
21:26:49 <shachaf> Apparently something to do with exception safety.
21:27:02 <shachaf> You're supposed to use the package SafeSemaphore instead now?
21:27:19 <kmc> haskell: making stuff safe by putting "Safe" before it since 1992
21:27:39 <kmc> caring a lot about safety while arguing about what it is
21:28:14 <shachaf> kmcynicism
21:28:26 <kmc> that second one is not really a bad thing
21:29:00 <shachaf> GHC 7.6 is out, by the way.
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21:43:58 <Arc_Koen> atriq: don't you think it's weird to use a signed number just to have -1? wouldn't it be way more efficient to cover something like {-1, 0, ..., 254}?
21:44:12 <ion> shachaf: Oh, cool.
21:45:24 <kmc> what's new and cool in  GHC 7.6
21:46:30 <ion> kmc: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.6.1/html/users_guide/release-7-6-1.html
21:46:35 <ion> Ooh, the CAPI thing is nice.
21:46:58 <shachaf> CAPI?
21:47:04 <Arc_Koen> !bf_txtgen AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
21:47:06 <EgoBot> ​91 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>>.>.<..>......<....<..>>......<....<....>..>.>---. [912]
21:47:10 <Arc_Koen> uh
21:47:14 <shachaf> Oh.
21:48:58 <itidus21> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>--.>----.<-----------------------------------------.<.>>>-----.<<.>>-----.<<<++++++.++++++++.>.<-------.-.++++..----------.-------.>>>--.<<<+++.>.>.-----.<.<-.+.>>---------.-.>++++++.<<.>>++.+++++.---------.<.<.>.>++..<++++++++++.>.+.<<.>++++++.>-----.<-.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++.<---------
21:48:58 <itidus21> ------------------------------------------------------------.>+
21:48:58 <fungot> It is now possible to defer type errors until
21:49:17 <kmc> @ghc_ebooks
21:49:18 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
21:50:04 <kmc> TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS HOW TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS HOW TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS HOW TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS Listen to good music from CDs, tapes
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21:51:58 <itidus21> and introducing CD tapes which are surprisingly expensive
21:51:58 <ion> “An infix alias for mappend in Data.Monoid has been introduced” Wait… wasn’t that in 7.4 or so already?
21:52:51 <itidus21> on account of the technology required to spin a cassette tape as fast as an optical disc
21:53:23 <itidus21> is it easier than it sounds?
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21:54:50 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: I'm thinking "intertia"
21:55:07 <itidus21> nvm, i respect that figuring out ghc 7.6 is gonna take some attention
21:55:07 <Arc_Koen> wow I really can't seem to type that one correctly
21:55:11 * shachaf sighs.
21:55:16 <shachaf> GHC 7.6 breaks a lot of things.
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21:56:05 <itidus21> inert
21:57:25 <itidus21> hmm.. the public education system taught me to spell separate and surprise..
21:57:35 <itidus21> using computer software
21:57:57 <itidus21> i think a spell checker taught me maybe
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22:00:13 <ion> shachaf: I wish they’d actually break a *lot* of existing code so we’d get a bunch of things fixed once and for all.
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22:02:30 <shachaf> ion: Instead we have to fix everything on every release. :-(
22:03:04 <ion> yeah
22:04:02 * oerjan suddenly finds (<$)'s argument order annoying
22:04:23 <oerjan> :t ($>)
22:04:24 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `$>'
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22:07:20 <kmc> itidus21: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
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22:12:03 <itidus21> thats much wilder than what i had in mind.. i was merely thinking of an audio cassette tape attached to a small cd
22:16:03 <itidus21> it's quite dizzying to consider progress
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22:57:28 <oerjan> <FireFly> The '-' before the last dot confuses me.  Wouldn't that output a trailing 255-byte, instead of null?
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22:57:39 <oerjan> it outputs a trailing 10-byte, actually.
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23:27:06 <Arc_Koen> so, I was thinking
23:27:21 <Arc_Koen> there's that idea of "Lahey-space" for funges
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23:27:56 <Arc_Koen> instead of making the wrapping continuous, having it keep the property of "being on the same line"
23:28:26 <Arc_Koen> and then there's the idea that most int / char / whatever integer types in many esolangs wrap
23:28:39 <Arc_Koen> (for instance 255+1 may be 0)
23:28:58 <Arc_Koen> so I was thinking "what about apllying the idea of Lahey-space to that?"
23:29:30 <Arc_Koen> for instance, 255+1 gives 0, but maybe 128*2 does not give 0
23:29:32 <oerjan> hmmm
23:30:52 <Arc_Koen> I don't really know what it would be but I'm pretty sure there's something to be found here
23:32:36 <Arc_Koen> and with that thought I'm gonna head off to bed, see you :)
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23:56:01 <kmc>   9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   000   000   000    Old_age   Always       -       205969452541786
23:56:29 <kmc> so my brand new drive has been powered on for approximately 23 billion years