00:02:15 <oerjan> `pastelogs free.*applicative
00:02:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23349
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00:05:04 <oerjan> `pastelogs free.*applicative
00:05:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.937
00:05:32 <Sgeo> Why did you do that twice?
00:23:40 <oerjan> for some reason the first link didn't load
00:24:57 <oerjan> zzo38: iirc that looks good
00:26:05 <zzo38> oerjan: But it doesn't work. It compiles but it won't give the correct answer.
00:26:54 <oerjan> well iirc x > y iff there exists something in l >= y or something in r <= x
00:27:19 <oerjan> which seems equivalent to what you wrote
00:29:13 <oerjan> zzo38: what's your counterexample?
00:30:51 <zzo38> O, nevermind it is working OK. The problem was the wrong addition.
00:32:15 <zzo38> The other problem was multiplication not being defined.
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01:09:45 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
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02:16:02 <fizzie> Is it a bad sign that there's a wifi network called "Wecanseeyounaked"?
02:18:13 <oerjan> nah, they can see everyone naked
02:18:43 <kmc> that's a cool superpower
02:21:50 <fizzie> There's also a "Booblies".
02:22:00 <fizzie> I suppose it's some kind of a combination of boobies and lies.
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03:17:14 <pikhq> kmc: Curse your name not being actually kmc.
03:17:40 <pikhq> I saw "Keegan McAllister" posting about taralli in my RSS reader, thought you should know about it, and then put two and two together.
03:17:58 <ion> What was the answer?
03:17:59 <oerjan> slavek kmc, the famous czech computer scientist
03:18:55 <oerjan> disclaimer: m may not actually be a vowel in czech. l and r are, however.
03:22:26 <ion> How are l and r pronounced in Czech?
03:25:51 <oerjan> well, usually normally, it's just that they can carry a syllable
03:27:42 <oerjan> Strč prst skrz krk <- tongue twister
03:33:14 <kmc> pikhq: ooc, why did you think of telling me about it
03:33:19 <kmc> is it because i mentioned toroidal desktop here before?
03:33:54 <pikhq> kmc: The thought was "Oh, that'd probably be much nicer for him than his current setup."
03:34:13 <kmc> indeed it is ;)
03:35:08 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/09/taralli-screen-edge-pointer-wrapping.html
03:40:21 * ion tried it. You lose the display’s four sweet spots.
03:41:44 <kmc> meaning the points which are easy to hit?
03:45:38 <oerjan> yeah i also thought a toroidal screen would make the edges harder to hit...
03:46:02 <kmc> yeah, it does
03:46:28 <kmc> but i think it's worth it, especially on a desktop 5000 pixels wide
03:48:58 <kmc> i don't need to hit edges that often
03:49:31 <kmc> i mainly use the mouse for clicking stuff on web pages
03:49:42 <kmc> and copy-pasting text
03:50:03 <kmc> the stuff at the edges of the screen -- scroll bars and the browser tab bar -- i have keyboard shortcuts for
03:51:26 <kmc> i'm trying out Vimium now :)
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03:52:39 <fizzie> I tried a (also synergy-driven) wrapping desktop once, with a desktop 4544 pixels wide, but somehow could never (well, in the day or two I had it) learn to take the short way around.
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04:45:59 <tswett> @Horse_ebooks tweet: "Awaken The Unused 98% Of Your Infinite"
04:46:13 <tswett> I think I'm fine with the 2% of my infinite that I'm actually using.
04:46:31 <tswett> I mean, it's still perfectly nice and infinite.
04:46:45 <pikhq> 2% of infinity is quite impressive still.
04:46:59 <oerjan> yeah caring about the difference is a cardinal sin
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06:03:05 <zzo38> 2% of infinite is still infinite (but depending on what kind of infinite number systems is being used, it might be less).
06:13:26 <Sgeo> I can only assume that tswett learned of horse_ebooks because Hussie.
06:18:42 <pikhq> zzo38: So we punned.
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06:35:45 <soundnfury> <zzo38> What is a good simple pseudorandom number generator...
06:35:47 <soundnfury> zzo38: if the PRNG doesn't have to be very secure, just use a LFSR
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07:12:44 <zzo38> The Finalize monad must have a use in category theory in general?
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08:01:06 <elliott> kmc: Isn't it kind of bad that taralli breaks the well-known consequence of Fitts's Law, in that it removes the ideal locations of the edges and esp. corners of the screen?
08:13:08 <zzo38> I have some idea: I once read somewhere someone had a computer program on punched cards and the customs agent took some of the cards. My idea is program (or programming language) that you can shuffle the cards and take out up to 10% and the program still works.
08:16:57 <shachaf> whoa, dude, this is weird.
08:20:23 <shachaf> It segfaults if you don't run it under X. :-(
08:23:27 <zzo38> soundnfury: But can this PRNG be used for easily shuffling a deck of cards, and are most permutations possible?
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08:31:20 <Jafet> One could use arcfour-N to generate permutations
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09:23:54 <shachaf> kmc: Are you sure you should check event.xcookie.type == GenericEvent?
09:23:59 <shachaf> (As opposed to event.type.)
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09:48:01 <shachaf> kmc: Is there a reason you do all the work to check for a RawMotion event? As far as I can tell the program gets no other events, and doing extra wrapping probably isn't harmful anyway.
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10:15:36 <itidus21> zzo: theres 2 possible approaches i can think of.. one is to say order doesn't matter... another is to have a means of re-sorting the cards when necessary
10:17:02 <itidus21> the part about being able to remove 10% of the cards sounds more tricky
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11:49:17 <shachaf> @ask elliott 04:41 <ddarius> shachaf: Okay, so you want Nothing returned when neither modifies either to indicated that the compound didn't modify anything.
11:49:26 <shachaf> @ask elliott (It made perfect sense in context!)
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12:01:17 <ais523> Anarchy's beginning to look more like a real language now
12:01:27 <ais523> even though all I'm doing is tweaking the spec to avoid warts
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12:10:15 <ais523> and writing the grammar to type correctly
12:14:07 <ais523> one interesting feature that came about is that functions have something of a "natural parameter order"
12:14:31 <ais523> e.g. strchr needle haystack has a somewhat cleaner implementation than strchr haystack needle
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13:04:40 <tswett> Sgeo: quite indirectly, yeah.
13:04:52 <tswett> horse_ebooks via Robert J! Lake via Solatrus via the Bandcamp page.
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15:23:17 <atriq> I swear, on any other programming website
15:23:33 <atriq> That which a Truth-machine is designed to showcase would be a given
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15:56:23 <Arc_Koen> uh, it's not possible to write a truth-machine in Chef?
15:56:54 <Arc_Koen> apparently output is only possible once the program has terminated... which it doesn't in case of an infinite loop
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16:39:08 <atriq> Phantom__Hoover, Truth-machine
16:40:14 <Arc_Koen> atriq: what did you mean "That which a Truth-machine is designed to showcase would be a given"?
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17:50:08 <olsner> oh my, they made the intro theme worse in season 3
17:50:18 <Sgeo> olsner, to what?
17:50:34 <Sgeo> There was a season 3?
17:52:00 <olsner> they added some cheesy backing track, I suppose they intended to make it "fuller" or something but it sounds more like they found the make-a-beat button on the keyboard
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18:41:20 <atriq> They also changed the theme tune to Thomas the Tank Engine, fwiw
18:41:24 <atriq> Also they made it CGI
18:43:23 <olsner> I don't remember enterprise ever switching to the Thomes the Tank Engine theme
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18:51:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> @ask elliott (It made perfect sense in context!) <-- if you say so.
18:53:32 <olsner> I wonder if I watched thomas the tank engine in english when I was a kid or if it was translated ... can't remember what it was called in swedish though
18:53:50 <atriq> I watched it in English
18:54:23 <atriq> I also watched it in England
18:54:45 <atriq> I think the latter rather accounts for the former
18:55:16 <oerjan> it's "lokomotivet thomas" in norwegian, anyway
18:55:22 <olsner> In Finnish, the show is called Tuomas-veturi.
18:56:34 <oerjan> hexham = helsinki, by a symmetry which switches finnish and english.
18:57:18 <atriq> Hexham also has a very poor to nonexistent underground/light railway
18:58:21 <olsner> "underground railway" makes me think of a subculture of railway enthusiasts running an illegal private railway
18:59:19 <oerjan> i used to like london, back when it was underground
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19:06:39 <shachaf> oerjan: I never watched it at all.
19:08:33 <oerjan> (i'm not sure if i have)
19:10:01 <itidus21> i watched some on youtube this year
19:10:19 <atriq> What did you make of it?
19:10:43 <itidus21> well i was aware of it before... but...
19:11:19 <itidus21> i guess i'm not all that fond of the political philosophies espoused by any shows about workers having to work
19:12:36 <itidus21> the point is it has ringo, it has trains, and it has cool landscapes
19:13:03 <atriq> And what do you think of El Nombre?
19:13:03 <itidus21> and perhaps a world first, anthropomorphic trains
19:13:14 <Phantom__Hoover> I remember reading a thing about how Thomas the Tank Engine espoused the Blairite work ethic
19:13:28 <Phantom__Hoover> Except I was really young at the time and I was more confused than anything else.
19:13:38 <atriq> It's based on a book! It's very pre-Blair!
19:13:46 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: thats good... i didnt just imagine it!
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19:15:13 <atriq> It had 7 or 8 books before Tony Blair was born!
19:15:30 <atriq> The Blairite work eithic espoused Thomas the Tank Engine
19:16:32 <itidus21> for some reason i read blair as thatcher
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19:17:47 <itidus21> anyway though.. i always say stupid things like that...
19:17:56 <itidus21> but i like thomas the tank engine
19:18:57 <itidus21> anyway... a show which is good is the live action animated version of the wind in the willows
19:19:29 <itidus21> i like these anthropomorphic animal based shows
19:20:33 <oerjan> is today's http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ nothing more than a typo correction?
19:21:35 <oerjan> next up: günther the gas chamber
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19:23:44 <oerjan> apparently it can be either
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19:26:21 <shachaf> oerjan: You're not a very useful bot. :-(
19:26:37 <oerjan> my specialty is puns, not information
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19:27:10 <shachaf> No, that's no good either. :-(
19:27:28 <itidus21> fresh baked puns can't be just served up
19:27:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Want to hear the best joke in the world?
19:27:57 <zzo38> If a category has more than one final object, or more than one initial object, are they isomorphic?
19:28:01 <shachaf> Q: Where does a general keep his armies?
19:28:27 <oerjan> zzo38: that's not a pun
19:28:43 <zzo38> I already said no I won't tell you a pun, please.
19:29:34 <oerjan> because there is exactly one morphism each way, and their compositions must be the identities
19:29:58 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought.
19:30:32 <itidus21> even when category theory is all worked out, our descendants will evolve new levels of conciousness with which they must solve greater and greater riddles.... and the accomplishments of humans in what we currently call 2012 won't seem very helpful except in a retro kind of way
19:32:09 <hagb4rd> no very helpful except in a retro kind of way you say
19:32:36 <itidus21> "oh look, they used their bodies to think. how quaint"
19:32:48 <oerjan> i keep getting this feeling that itidus21 says things that _might_ be true, but which there's nearly no evidence for
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19:33:19 <hagb4rd> everyting i thought i'messed. my body is working the things out
19:33:44 <olsner> things that might be true in the same sense that random sentences from fungot might be true?
19:33:44 <hagb4rd> without any active control of my mind
19:33:45 <fungot> olsner: my understanding is an fsa two counters ( bignums), rationals or complex numbers? ( credit card numbers?)
19:33:58 <hagb4rd> i every smile i thought of was a fake smile
19:34:00 <oerjan> olsner: maybe slightly more coherent
19:34:02 <itidus21> oerjan: i just see my random posts as a kind of venting i can't help myself but blurt out...
19:34:14 <itidus21> i think its tied in with the anxiety thing
19:34:39 <oerjan> shachaf: btw heard it before
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19:35:02 <itidus21> hagb4rd: none of thats true etc..
19:35:04 <shachaf> oerjan: Doesn't stop it from being the best joke in the world!
19:35:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Though, you know: The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
19:35:52 <hagb4rd> okay if there is nothing between true and false it is not true
19:36:32 <oerjan> itidus21: regarding category theory, i have this feeling there is a whole world of things going on in algebraic geometry that are immensely powerful yet so abstract that i could never hope to understand them. and i have a math doctorate!
19:36:33 <itidus21> basically i am trying to avoid thinking about things myself
19:36:33 <hagb4rd> thats y i don't like digital media :P
19:36:52 <oerjan> so any idea that things will ever be all worked out is naive, i think
19:37:05 <oerjan> (even without considering godel and turing)
19:37:11 <itidus21> its the same reason i cant sit there and read a book.....
19:37:27 <itidus21> i cant even sit there and think
19:37:27 <olsner> This Togliatti surface is an algebraic surface of degree five: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Togliatti_surface.png
19:38:03 <zzo38> I can't just sit there and read a book, or sit there and think, either; to read much of a book I prefer to lie down.
19:38:12 <itidus21> so rather than think about things, i just blurt them out
19:38:14 <zzo38> For thinking it is various; sometimes walking around
19:38:26 <zzo38> Sometimes I am lying down or sleeping
19:38:33 <zzo38> Sometimes sit down.
19:40:47 <zzo38> Sometimes by writing.
19:41:04 <zzo38> When I am think about things by writing it is often not clear to anyone else, what it is for.
19:42:26 <olsner> I like to think by writing
19:42:42 <olsner> when I try to think by thinking I usually only achieve the illusion of thinking
19:43:04 <hagb4rd> absent-mindedness is concentration on sth else
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19:43:26 <itidus21> meditation is supposed to be able to help you think by thinking
19:43:57 <hagb4rd> wait..don't we have to stop thinking during such a session?
19:44:11 <olsner> in today's episode of Enterprise: vulcan zombies
19:44:14 <atriq> itidus21, do we call them chairs because we sit on them, or do we sit on them because they are called chairs?
19:44:42 <zzo38> We call them chairs because that is the word for them, I think. Isn't it?
19:44:55 <hagb4rd> they chairs are chairs as long as we _think_ of them as chairs and not tables
19:44:59 <itidus21> atriq: we sit on chairs mostly to conform with social conventions
19:45:28 <itidus21> but then the question turns to why social conventions converge on chairs
19:45:36 <olsner> we sit on chairs because our floors are improperly heated
19:45:41 <hagb4rd> its not really social.. its just functional
19:46:05 <itidus21> to avoid chaos everyone has to agree what is a chair
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19:46:23 <olsner> let's play #esoteric-chairs
19:47:42 <itidus21> i actually did put "some" thought into this once,
19:48:20 <olsner> into the definition of chair?
19:48:33 <itidus21> i don't know what to quite call it
19:48:44 <hagb4rd> no.. into the hell of a chair!
19:49:13 <hagb4rd> when the doors of perception are cleansed everythings appears to man as it is infinite
19:49:21 <itidus21> i can throw a few more words in to show how the ideas were forming to me
19:49:24 <hagb4rd> which is less then 1 i guess
19:49:43 <itidus21> psychogeography.. i was wondering what that infact was... parkour.. drifters..
19:50:15 <itidus21> and from my bookmarks i see the words derive and flaneur
19:51:44 <itidus21> i didnt quite figure out whatever it was i was trying to figure out
19:51:53 <olsner> hmm, combining parkour and flaneur sounds interesting
19:54:11 <olsner> i.e. a slow walking kind of parkour, I imagine it would be very fluid and graceful and involve monocles
19:56:05 <atriq> That sounds hilarious
19:56:10 <atriq> Pythonesque, almost
19:56:30 <olsner> "The flâneur and the traceur (a parkour practitioner) both have their origins in Paris. In the nineteenth century the flâneur walked the city in order to experience it and over 150 years later traceurs in the Parisian suburbs found new ways of moving through the very same spaces."
19:56:32 <atriq> I'm just imagine people in monocles slowly walking up a wall and down the other side
19:56:38 <olsner> the time for the flaneurtraceur is nigh
20:01:28 <hagb4rd> walking the walls up and down is a small time. but no clue where to get a monocle at this time
20:02:04 <atriq> Buy a cheap pair of glasses and snap them in two
20:02:10 <atriq> And tie a cord to it
20:02:15 <itidus21> i was hopping around wiki at that time
20:03:58 <itidus21> the general question, applied back to chairs i guess was, if you choose to ignore knowing that such things are chairs and you can sit on them, are there new ways you can define the environment and the ways you move around it
20:04:56 <itidus21> and that sentence was quite long winded
20:04:58 <hagb4rd> the point is: you would surely place your ass on it to sit down, even without knowing it is a chair
20:05:16 <hagb4rd> so we don't have to agree to it beeing a chair
20:05:35 <hagb4rd> its not a social convention
20:05:48 <hagb4rd> but a social convention wp
20:06:14 <hagb4rd> would be not to piss on a grave
20:06:38 <itidus21> ok heres a specific example. in a restaurant its not ok to sit on the table
20:06:53 <hagb4rd> (although some gravestones would make perfect toilets)
20:07:10 <hagb4rd> thats a social convention yes
20:07:20 <itidus21> and if i can trust tv which i can't, if a woman sits on your desk she is flirting
20:07:25 <hagb4rd> but o dont think this leads us anywhere
20:07:42 <itidus21> well the table could be a chair....
20:07:47 <hagb4rd> but no way leads any where
20:07:56 <hagb4rd> one way is the way with heart
20:08:38 <hagb4rd> although both lead nowhere
20:09:28 <itidus21> i guess that the table is there for a reason too
20:10:20 <hagb4rd> if you're looking for things not having any purpose: y don't take a i-pad
20:12:09 <itidus21> another thought i had was whether theres things humans can do which we just havent thought of
20:13:44 <itidus21> on a certain scale the body is mostly muscles and bones, and.. presumably each joint gets used regularly
20:14:15 <itidus21> so it seems unlikely that there is much more we can do with it
20:14:41 <itidus21> i think parkour does challenge this a bit
20:15:19 <itidus21> and some circus performers can do some amazing things
20:18:42 <itidus21> and then theres the fun which can be had with machines
20:22:27 <itidus21> roller skates, skateboards, pogosticks, bicycles, unicycles, stilts, grappling hooks, segways, elevators, escalators
20:22:30 <itidus21> The plural of ski is either ski or skis. Frequently the plural is erroneously written skiis, owing no doubt to the fact that the double i occurs in skiing, the present participial form.
20:22:37 <oerjan> basically there are professions whose _job_ it is to find out such things, which means it's unlikely to have been ignored for not looking...
20:24:02 <oerjan> hm in norwegian the plural is ski, although it's not a neuter noun (which would have made it regular.)
20:24:38 <itidus21> i had to google it cos skis just seems so weird
20:26:41 <itidus21> this is all atriq's fault for asking me a question about chairs
20:26:51 <atriq> Of the 8 esolangs I have created
20:27:10 <atriq> And the remaining 1 is string-rewriting
20:27:15 <atriq> And not actually that esoteric
20:27:39 <atriq> I'd say it's about as esoteric as Thue
20:29:24 <itidus21> oerjan: for me, the interest is not in actually moving about in the environment, but in video gaming
20:30:13 <atriq> Fueue and Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download are my two favourite esolangs I have created
20:30:57 <oerjan> itidus21: but then why restrict to what can be done with a body? >:)
20:32:24 <hagb4rd> maybe because of piracy is killing intellectual property rights
20:32:50 <atriq> I'm not sure if anyone's talking at eachother or if we're just talking
20:34:29 <hagb4rd> well real fast nora's hair salon 3 sounds interesting
20:35:10 <atriq> It's a functional programming language with the same motivation as BIT
20:35:53 <Sgeo> I should probably find food to eat
20:36:00 <Sgeo> Rather than pretending that food is optional
20:36:40 -!- augur has joined.
20:37:01 <itidus21> as an example.. (better math notation skills would be handy here.. ) given (x,y) then (x(succ),y) and (x(pred),y) mean walking right and left respectively
20:37:58 <atriq> It doesn't handle collisions at all, though
20:38:05 <atriq> And assumes distances are discrete
20:38:42 <itidus21> is hard to avoid in a video game
20:39:38 <itidus21> it look so elegant expressed that way though ...
20:41:01 <itidus21> i guess its the same as (x+1,y) and (x-1,y)
20:41:02 <atriq> (x,y) -> (x++, y), (x--, y)
20:43:33 <atriq> Well, it's goodnight from me!
20:43:37 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:44:00 <itidus21> oerjan: i have thought about this a bit
20:44:17 <itidus21> @ <oerjan> itidus21: but then why restrict to what can be done with a body? >:)
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20:50:57 <itidus21> specifically, the question of why things in a computer are modelled upon things in real life
20:52:56 <itidus21> looking at some windows apps, many things have an analogy to real life.. notepad, calculator, paint(like a canvas), folders,
20:55:02 <hagb4rd> i guess that is because if they wouldn't reflect the (actual state of) ideas of this world, we weren't even able to realize and abstract their patterns
20:55:55 <itidus21> i guess that just like how given (x,y) -> (x+c,y) where c != 0 inevitably coincides with walking... an array of values displayed as colours whereby we can change the values of those colours inevitably coincides with a canvas
20:57:07 <itidus21> fwiw i don't really know what the -> there means :D
20:57:28 <itidus21> i know its something to do with it being a function
20:57:54 <oerjan> > (\(x,y) -> (x+c,y)) (a,b)
21:00:41 <hagb4rd> everything big starts small
21:00:48 <hagb4rd> even the universe..so they say
21:02:32 * Arc_Koen adds to the "things to do when I have enough savings to buy a time machine" : check if the universe was really small at some point
21:05:57 <zzo38> How can anyone have enough savings to buy a time machine, if the price is infinite?
21:07:29 <itidus21> since my thought process isnt always clear, whats fascinating to me about such things is that, given a coordinate, any change to the coordinate is motion, any absence of changes to the coordinate is stasis
21:07:34 <Arc_Koen> I don't know, but I expect my future self to come with a solution and bring it to me
21:08:10 <itidus21> i cant quite explain why such things are puzzling to me
21:08:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:08:38 <itidus21> except that it involves no work on my part to make changes to coordinates mean motion
21:09:04 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:09:32 -!- kinoSi has joined.
21:09:32 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: just be careful not to accidentally become the small thing the universe grew from
21:10:22 <Arc_Koen> well *that* would be rewarding
21:10:41 <oerjan> perhaps, but also likely fatal
21:11:24 <Arc_Koen> well that would be a much more ironical way of dying than, say, a cancer or a car accident
21:11:28 <itidus21> and it takes no work on my part to make changes to an array of color values mean painting on a canvas
21:12:09 <Arc_Koen> like, "you used a self-generation time travel paradox to invent a time machine, and then the same paradox happened to create the universe (by killing you)"
21:13:00 <itidus21> so.. coordinates and color values are ways of treating numbers.... but i don't know what that means
21:13:04 <Arc_Koen> besides, if that's what happened and I don't fulfill my destiny, then isn't there a risk that the universe suddenly cease to exist?
21:13:19 <itidus21> i think thats where the work comes in
21:13:38 <itidus21> defining coordinates and colours
21:14:05 <Arc_Koen> > type coordinates = int * int
21:14:06 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `type'
21:15:23 <oerjan> perhaps the only universes which exist are those in which such an extremely unlikely paradox happened.
21:15:27 <hagb4rd> no, as its part you cannot dispatch this monad
21:15:30 <Phantom__Hoover> * Arc_Koen adds to the "things to do when I have enough savings to buy a time machine" : check if the universe was really small at some point
21:15:52 <Phantom__Hoover> Finding that out is equivalent to checking if it's finite at all.
21:16:44 <Arc_Koen> oh, you mean like some kind of "until you look at it it's much more complex"ish quantum thing?
21:17:08 <oerjan> i'd imagine that if the proliferating universes theory is correct, then each sub-universe, being created by one particular incident, is likely finite
21:17:23 <hagb4rd> well at least its much more simple until the mathematics look at it
21:17:30 <Arc_Koen> proliferating? as in breeding?
21:18:39 <hagb4rd> maybe and if the universe is goin all possible ways any time.. a vast amount of universes exits.. yes all of them
21:18:45 <oerjan> one theory is that every black hole created in this universe creates a new one in its singularity
21:19:23 <oerjan> (although because of time dilation, the new one is past the end of ours
21:20:37 <oerjan> and then there's something else about universes created by colliding branes
21:20:46 <itidus21> so given two octets, i can mean a coordinate (x,y) with 65536 unique positions, or a very small canvas with 256 unique colours per pixel, or i can mean two ascii text characters..
21:21:17 <Arc_Koen> that would be kind of depressing. instead of having a god or something of the like above us, we might have spawned between two molecules of a bottle of beer from a bigger universe :(
21:21:21 <itidus21> and these all seem to be total functions (of course i am rambling and i dont know what the words im using really quite mean)
21:22:13 <hagb4rd> <oerjan>one theory is that every black hole created in this universe creates a new one in its singularity <-- yes like that one. singularity goes a long way ;)
21:22:20 * oerjan wonders how beer got mentioned in this
21:24:44 <oerjan> itidus21: everything is encoded as something else, until you reach bits, and then you get to build those out of physical components, which are "encoded" with quantum particles.
21:24:44 <Arc_Koen> I mean, when I look at the landscape aroung my house and how it is very different in the day and in the night, but always so beautiful, and all that is caused by a star in the sky... that's how I like my universe
21:25:39 <oerjan> and encoding things as something else is the basic trick to proving languages turing-complete...
21:25:45 <hagb4rd> trying to check out this stellarium app (you may know it) i realized how fast the we're turning on earth. had some hard time to focus on beteigeuze while not paused
21:26:26 <Arc_Koen> oh yeah they had this question "what would happen if the earth stopped spinning all of a sudden"
21:26:34 <hagb4rd> never had a chance to use a real telescope
21:27:58 <oerjan> i think nothing much immediately; then our magnetic field would disappear; then our atmosphere.
21:27:59 <hagb4rd> but i will go and get one, after i've studied the sky virtually for some time
21:28:28 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I think the conclusion was "everything would get sublimated, including the earth's mantel"
21:28:52 <hagb4rd> the magnetic sphere is created by the fluid (turning) part of the core.. thats true
21:29:17 <hagb4rd> but can anyone tell me why the earth is that hot inside?
21:29:42 <oerjan> there are far too many google hits for this question :P
21:30:16 <oerjan> hagb4rd: i've read that it's about half leftover heat from its creation, half radioactive isotopes
21:30:30 <hagb4rd> yea. and thats a poor explanation
21:31:10 <hagb4rd> i've heard a theory at last.. quite interesting. an underdog.
21:31:48 <hagb4rd> he talked about the small interaction of .. cmon which particle was it
21:32:42 <hagb4rd> it was about neutrinos heating up the earth
21:32:50 <hagb4rd> and neutrino as a power source
21:33:26 <oerjan> or maybe it was dark matter. i saw there was a theory that there might be places with enough of it to keep planets livable without stars
21:33:51 <oerjan> hagb4rd: i'm pretty sure they've calculated that to be insignificant.
21:34:49 <oerjan> iirc a neutrino passing through a light year of lead has about 50% chance of being absorbed.
21:35:13 <hagb4rd> yes hes theory was _based_ on that fact
21:35:26 <hagb4rd> where are the rest of themß
21:35:32 <olsner> a light year of lead sounds like it might collapse into a black hole or something
21:35:40 <oerjan> ...they're going straight _through_, duh
21:36:10 <oerjan> olsner: yeah yeah. although it doesn't have to be thick in the other directions...
21:36:26 <olsner> how thin would it have to be not to collapse into a black hole?
21:36:31 <Phantom__Hoover> <oerjan> or maybe it was dark matter. i saw there was a theory that there might be places with enough of it to keep planets livable without stars
21:36:55 <Phantom__Hoover> The gist of the theory is that dark matter could be made up of particles that are their own antiparticles and so annihilate with themselves.
21:37:26 <Phantom__Hoover> So they'd gather in large gravity wells and provide heat through annihilation.
21:37:58 <oerjan> hagb4rd: anyway surely someone has calculated how much uranium etc. is needed to keep the earth hot and found it not to be unreasonable.
21:38:12 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, ooh, I totally know this but I forget exactly what it is.
21:38:34 <Phantom__Hoover> Think about it: near the middle, the lead's being pulled in both directions equally.
21:39:30 <hagb4rd> it's easily belived they already found an answer. but i'm sure there is somthing more to be known. and it's worth further investigation
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21:40:36 <oerjan> well what is known is that _very_ few neutrinos interact with the matter in our neutrino detectors. which means our earth would have to contain something that absorbed neutrinos better than ordinary matter in order to get any significant heating.
21:41:53 <oerjan> and there isn't any reason to believe the matter inside earth is _that_ different, is there...
21:42:02 <hagb4rd> hä? do you know the amount of neutrino passing the earth? and the power of 50% NOT going through? no? me neither
21:42:23 <hagb4rd> and can only recall parts of his argumentation
21:42:34 <hagb4rd> if you want to read more.. go and find some sources on thr
21:42:58 <oerjan> hagb4rd: um the earth isn't 1 light year in diameter. it is about 1/20 light second.
21:43:26 <oerjan> `frink (40000 km / pi) -> light seconds
21:45:01 <oerjan> > 0.5**(0.04247 / (365.2425*86400))
21:45:43 <oerjan> > 1-0.9999999990671482
21:46:25 <oerjan> so about a billionth of the neutrons passing through the earth in the middle might be absorbed, if it were made of lead.
21:48:43 <hagb4rd> okay. so how much energy would that be in kJ? do we know how much energy/mass a neutrino has?
21:51:49 <Phantom__Hoover> <hagb4rd> h? do you know the amount of neutrino passing the earth? and the power of 50% NOT going through? no? me neither
21:53:04 <hagb4rd> share it with me and my friends. please.
21:53:14 <Phantom__Hoover> A single solar neutrino has an energy on the order of 100keV-1MeV.
21:54:13 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: see above :P
21:55:09 <Phantom__Hoover> Meanwhile, 6.5e10 of those pass through the Earth at any given time.
21:57:12 <Phantom__Hoover> So... what is that, the kinetic energy of a paperclip held by someone on a walk?
21:57:59 * oerjan always approves of other people doing the work for him
21:58:21 <Phantom__Hoover> Now I don't know offhand what the radiative heat losses of Earth are, nor what proportion of that balances heat from the core, but I'm willing to bet that both are far, far, far, far more than 4 millijoules.
21:59:08 <hagb4rd> i want the radioactive theory to be approved .. please!
21:59:12 <Phantom__Hoover> hagb4rd, oh, also, the way I got that highly technical data? Wikipedia.
21:59:26 <Phantom__Hoover> Maybe your friend should check it before trying to do science.
22:00:03 <hagb4rd> stop talking about my friends casper
22:00:26 <hagb4rd> i wanted to point out the fact the reason for the hot earth is not finally clear
22:00:54 <oerjan> he may have seen the movie 2012, the top google hit for "neutrinos heating earth's core" is http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2009/11/13/in-2012-neutrinos-melt-earths-core-and-other-disasters/
22:01:17 <Phantom__Hoover> Sounds about right for hagb4rd's level of scientific expertise.
22:02:24 <HackEgo> 5.68021248000e+11 m^2 s^-2 kg (energy)
22:02:25 <oerjan> hagb4rd: fortunately they have plans for how to measure the amount of radioactivity in the earth's core, so they should be able to make it clear. guess how they'll measure it? with neutrinos.
22:03:16 <oerjan> beta radiation comes with neutrinos, you see.
22:03:31 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: well ok may be exaggerating slightly for dramatic effect.
22:03:53 <hagb4rd> which makes me recapitulate the first round
22:04:10 <hagb4rd> maybe its not the power of the neutrino
22:04:27 <hagb4rd> i have to watch this over again
22:05:11 <oerjan> hagb4rd: well ok but that's how _ordinary_ beta radiation works. and most of the neutrinos get away from the earth, so it will be a tiny fraction of the heating that's due to them.
22:06:43 <Phantom__Hoover> Also the neutrino doesn't have a side effect, it's the side effect of beta decay.
22:07:18 <hagb4rd> you talk as you would know every fact on this material.. ignoring the armies of true scientist gathering to capture just one of them to prove their mathematical disaster they have constructed
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22:08:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Or did you think those massive detectors were just for show?
22:08:58 <Phantom__Hoover> How do you think they got the energies without capturing some?
22:09:04 <oerjan> oh it's not quite 50% residue
22:09:07 <oerjan> "The Earth's internal heat comes from a combination of residual heat from planetary accretion (about 20%) and heat produced through radioactive decay (80%)"
22:09:17 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient
22:09:47 <hagb4rd> what is about higgs? do they got one?
22:09:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:01 <hagb4rd> what is dark matter? what is matter?
22:10:09 <oerjan> hagb4rd: your "you talk" comment looks distinctly crackpot, i hope you didn't write it yourself.
22:12:15 <Phantom__Hoover> because they make no sense whatsoever when taken together.
22:12:29 <oerjan> well he _is_ disgusted.
22:13:19 -!- elliott has joined.
22:13:25 <elliott> as far as i can tell some really stupid argument is going on
22:13:25 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:13:36 <elliott> i am here to laugh at whoever is stupider but am too tired to tell which side that is
22:13:47 <shachaf> elliott: Laugh at me instead.
22:13:47 <oerjan> hagb4rd: sorry for insulting you. i don't think neutrinos are among the things that are still in doubt in physics, however. they were detected decades ago.
22:13:59 <elliott> wow i never noticed oerjan uses two spaces after dots
22:14:02 <shachaf> Neutrinos are faked by NASA.
22:14:02 <elliott> or is it only when you're being serious
22:14:07 <oerjan> some of their _properties_ still are, of course.
22:14:20 <shachaf> Like the property of existence!
22:14:33 <hagb4rd> i never said they were not discovered
22:14:35 <shachaf> If neutrinos are real how come there are still photons.
22:14:42 <oerjan> elliott: i use little punctuation when not serious i guess :P
22:15:03 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:15:05 <elliott> oerjan: how hard will i get kicked if i add a quote
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22:15:18 <Phantom__Hoover> it's because when he was young they used typewriters for irc
22:15:20 <oerjan> elliott: not very hard. there might be some swatting.
22:15:41 <elliott> that's the great thing about this channel
22:15:46 <elliott> it is practically impossible to ever get kicked from it
22:15:51 <elliott> that's also the terrible thing about this channel
22:16:12 <elliott> the terrible thing about this channel is oerjan
22:16:12 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: help me out <-- but for once i _am_ on one of the sides :/
22:16:23 <Phantom__Hoover> no you can get kicked quite easily if you try to get someone kicked who should be
22:16:33 <elliott> that was worth at least a kick
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22:16:53 <elliott> you have to work for your punishment, shachaf
22:17:26 <shachaf> oerjan is part of the neutrino conspiracy.
22:17:29 * oerjan is suddenly imagining shachaf as something from a lewis carroll book
22:17:30 <shachaf> That's why he won't kick me.
22:17:47 <elliott> oerjan: which side are you on
22:17:48 <shachaf> IF U BELIEVE IN NEUTRINOS U MUST KICK ME :"(
22:17:52 <elliott> also what is the argument actually
22:18:05 <elliott> i just went "oh i should do my daily glancing at #esoteric logs to see how terrible the channel has become" and woah
22:18:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: btw you have an extra _
22:18:36 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see my @tells?
22:18:42 <shachaf> Isn't that sentence great?
22:18:46 <oerjan> elliott: whether neutrinos have any significant part in the heating of earth's interior.
22:18:49 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:18:50 <shachaf> Also I still want an answer to my question.
22:18:50 <elliott> shachaf: it's a pretty good sentence
22:19:01 <elliott> oerjan: that's way too much science for me
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22:19:33 <elliott> numbers are for ruining fun
22:19:53 <elliott> wow i see a conversation between the two best people who have nicknames with numbers in them in this log
22:20:14 <oerjan> elliott: well you have to admit that it's a pretty good argument against them heating up the core to calculate "um i get about 4 milliwatts"
22:20:31 <shachaf> elliott: Am I one of those people. :'(
22:20:32 <elliott> millis are the small ones right
22:20:53 <elliott> i'm a dumb C++ programmer so i don't know these things
22:20:59 <elliott> i rely on wise mathematicians to keep me straight
22:21:02 <oerjan> but it would be a good argument even it were mega, really.
22:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if you hold a paperclip and walk forwards then its kinetic energy is ~4mW
22:21:18 <shachaf> template<typename T>T elliott(T T) { return T; }
22:21:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i never knew paperclips had enough power to heat the earth
22:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> does that make sense to you or do i have to object-orient it
22:21:30 -!- ion has joined.
22:21:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw why am i tired at like 23:30
22:22:09 <elliott> you know i think C++ is actually an ok language in some respects
22:22:11 <elliott> i feel bad about saying this
22:22:22 <elliott> what did the clocks change
22:22:49 <hagb4rd> ok i've got the authors: Johannes von Buttlar and Konstantin Meyl
22:23:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: your house has undetectedly slipped into the north sea
22:23:14 <elliott> 19:30:32: <itidus21> even when category theory is all worked out, our descendants will evolve new levels of conciousness with which they must solve greater and greater riddles.... and the accomplishments of humans in what we currently call 2012 won't seem very helpful except in a retro kind of way
22:23:31 <elliott> i honestly can't tell whether this would make sense if i was less tired
22:23:35 <oerjan> probably because of neutrinos
22:23:38 <elliott> like it makes no sense but
22:23:43 <elliott> nothing makes much sense to me right now
22:24:02 <elliott> oerjan: can i come visit in trondheim
22:24:14 <elliott> oerjan: i'm all soured and cynical
22:25:15 <oerjan> sorry, i am too soured and cynical myself to see visitors
22:25:20 <Phantom_Hoover> trondheim is the perfect name for a place to be soured and cynical
22:25:23 <elliott> oerjan: great! see you then
22:25:34 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that _is_ true.
22:25:53 <elliott> it's ok i'll just go on a trip to norway and HAPPEN to pass through trondheim
22:26:07 <elliott> and HAPPEN to spend all day covering every inch of the place until i run into oerjan BY COMPLETE COINCIDENCE ISN'T IT AMAZING?!?!?!?!??!!!
22:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but will you and oerjan be able to share his cardboard box
22:26:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean there's not much demand in trondheim for a beggar who can't even integrate
22:27:10 <elliott> i have some life wisdom to dispense
22:27:12 <oerjan> i doubt most of the beggars in trondheim can integrate, being romanian roma
22:27:36 <oerjan> admittedly they're not much in demand either
22:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't say there was much supply for integrating beggars either
22:27:56 <elliott> you know how everything sometimes seems like crap
22:28:02 <elliott> that all goes away when you're tired!!!
22:28:05 <elliott> that's my life tip of the ay
22:28:06 <oerjan> life wisdom never comes when you're ready anyway
22:29:56 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/SMITH_Turing-completeness_proof_sketch someone is encroaching on ur teriotry
22:30:28 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!&curid=1671&diff=33689&oldid=20842 great editg
22:31:59 <elliott> oerjan: oddly enough another thing that goes away when you're tired is your left ear
22:32:09 <elliott> itst the mysteries of creaiotn that bind us all together
22:32:35 <elliott> 17:52:00: <olsner> they added some cheesy backing track, I suppose they intended to make it "fuller" or something but it sounds more like they found the make-a-beat button on the keyboard
22:32:38 <elliott> olsner: i love that fucking button
22:33:03 <elliott> i'm imagining a wonderful crappy keyboard beat underneath the enterprise theme now
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22:35:43 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: oddly enough another thing that goes away when you're tired is your left ear <-- well i've noticed mine starts ringing when i'm tired and many people are speaking...
22:39:19 <elliott> what more proof do you need
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22:41:09 <hagb4rd> i want to touch the wounds
22:41:57 <Arc_Koen> so hum proving that all programs in a certain language are bound to terminate is a proof that that language is not turing complete?
22:43:47 <elliott> however, proving that not all programs in a language terminate is not a proof of turing completeness
22:43:57 <elliott> (i.e., there are languages with non-halting programs that are still not powerful enough to be TC)
22:44:00 <elliott> (but you must have non-halting programs to be TC)
22:44:30 <oerjan> subtle cough is a simple example
22:45:01 <elliott> some people might not consider it simple :)
22:45:19 <oerjan> well a _small_ example, then :P
22:46:23 <oerjan> also this assumes that the language is actually implementable and that termination means that the implementation also terminates.
22:47:19 <oerjan> otherwise you get into semantics of what termination means for very abstract models
22:47:20 <hagb4rd> the greatest variety of phenomena from the smallest amount of principles
22:48:41 <oerjan> i also recall 0x29a which was TC but the functional subset alone wasn't
22:48:51 <Arc_Koen> elliott: however, proving that not all programs in a language terminate is not a proof of turing completeness I think HQ9+ misses an infinite loop instruction
22:49:20 <elliott> i am reminded of oerjan's HQ9+ variant
22:50:14 <Arc_Koen> btw, what the hell does the + do?
22:50:32 <fizzie> Increments the accumulator, doesn't it?
22:51:20 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: that's the joke.
22:52:06 <fizzie> I suppose it's all very philosophical.
22:52:47 <fizzie> Gregor: I tried to have a Portland food cart lunch today, but all the other people wanted to go somewhere where they can sit down and have a beer. Perhaps tomorrow.
22:54:04 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Are you telling me you can build a time machine but you can't cook a cheese soufflé? You've got your priorities all wrong!).
23:01:26 <oerjan> but what if i used a time machine to work for Carême?
23:01:39 <elliott> oerjan: i am going to bed now
23:01:47 <elliott> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
23:02:04 <elliott> have a nice day everybody except the bad people
23:02:39 <shachaf> elliott: Did you answer my cryptography question yet. :'(
23:02:43 <shachaf> elliott: Also am I bad people?
23:02:47 <oerjan> darn elliott always excluding us villains
23:03:08 <elliott> oerjan: don't worry i was thinking of people who weren't you
23:03:44 <shachaf> elliott: Stream ciphers and disk encryption and all that.
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23:24:54 <kmc> still getting the hang of tmux
23:30:44 <shachaf> kmc: So I wrote that program in Haskell (mostly).
23:31:04 <shachaf> Halfskell halfC, anyway. There are no XInput bindings.
23:32:48 <shachaf> Did all my kmc:s before get through?
23:36:47 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:37:22 <oerjan> all the ones i saw got through
23:37:48 * kmc checks logs
23:37:55 <kmc> shachaf: you're right that I probably don't need to check the event type
23:38:33 <kmc> @tell elliott yes, it does break these consequences of Fitt's law, but personally I don't use the screen edges that much -- I already have keyboard shortcuts for tab bar and scrolling
23:38:39 <zzo38> O, 7-zip can unpack many file types, and the common ones (tape archive, gzip, zip, etc) can be used with packing as well.
23:38:47 <kmc> @tell elliott i mainly use the mouse for clicking links in the middle of web pages, ymmv of course
23:39:08 <kmc> shachaf: what did you write in Haskell? a screen wrappy thing?
23:39:46 <shachaf> It's mostly a port of the C code.
23:40:09 <shachaf> The X11 bindings are both incomplete and low-levelish.
23:41:09 <zzo38> 7-Zip can even unpack Macintosh disk images, which I have once had to do; the music for PySol is in this format for some reason I don't know.
23:42:04 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/wrap/Main.hs http://slbkbs.org/wrap/cbits.c
23:43:47 <shachaf> kmc: Anyway I'm trying it and it's weird.
23:43:55 <shachaf> Maybe it's be more useful if I had more screens.
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23:50:08 <kmc> i am used to it and so i use it even on the small laptop screen
23:53:29 <kmc> i learned that you can set the window title in screen/tmux with \ek<title>\e
23:53:40 <kmc> i don't know what this escape code is called
23:53:54 <kmc> it's not the one used by xterm to set the window title
23:54:01 <kmc> it's not in the xterm escape codes file
23:57:05 <zzo38> Is there ROM chips having a second address/data bus?