< 1348013285 34558 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am writing some C program and Famicom program to make a slideshow of name tables, pattern tables, and .NSF musics, at request of someone who ask me to do this. < 1348013386 155815 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :8:08 play drum machines every day < 1348013405 246194 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is pondering how to best fake return-type polymorphism in a dynamically typed language < 1348013440 770749 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out what's the optimal kind of cpu design for when your system is 32 bits but you don't have cache < 1348013454 969031 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting to look suspiciously a lot like an ARM :D < 1348013490 406756 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't have cash, you can't afford any kind of CPU design. < 1348013496 376044 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those things are expensive. < 1348013622 164170 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahah < 1348013652 387179 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you have cache the optimal design turns into something like a POWER < 1348013666 708293 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: what about ARM is optimized for no cache in particular? < 1348013676 809477 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some other monstruous out of order risc design with some huge ass vector processing unit < 1348013709 342868 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: thumb mode (16 bit opcode mode) < 1348013721 948606 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah < 1348013769 16234 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :register file not too small not too large < 1348013784 522274 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 or 2 instructions per cycle < 1348013794 232916 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :another reason for 16 bit instructions is that some small embedded ARM chips have only 16-bit data bus < 1348013802 195944 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or had, anyway) < 1348013964 262533 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i can tell, the main design criterion for ARM was basically "okay, RISC is pretty cool, now how can we be clever to work around the drawbacks" < 1348014006 185816 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular arbitrary conditional instructions + selective update of condition codes < 1348014024 225261 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to avoid pipeline stalls caused by branching < 1348014039 165030 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly Thumb does away with the arbitrary conditionals :/ < 1348014043 953194 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thumb-2 has them in a jankier way < 1348014091 264775 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also having the program counter accessible like any other register is pretty cool < 1348014108 198992 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah dunno about having PC as a register < 1348014131 851730 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work well with my current design at least < 1348014177 686006 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also considered a miniature vliw, with 32 bits instructions but 2 operations per instruction < 1348014222 632052 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, ARM and VAX both have PC in R15; RogueVM has PC in R0. I would like to make up some CPU architecture too, but it would cost a lot to make the chip. < 1348014233 578790 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure there's much gain over a 1 op/16bit instruction design if you have to load instructions at the same time < 1348014257 410793 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: you could do something that could run in a FPGA < 1348014262 37470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Should I write my programs for RogueVM instead of x86? < 1348014265 60338 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put instructions on a separate bus if you want to load instruction and data at the same time. < 1348014284 607585 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: that's why most CPUs have cache < 1348014286 455557 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It depends what programs you are trying to write. For some cases, neither is best. < 1348014300 168013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What if I want to write Web 2.0 applications? < 1348014317 532617 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: 2 internal buses... without having a gazillion pins (which would be expensive) < 1348014374 182546 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: In that case I recommend quitting. But if you want to do anyways, perhaps don't use a machine code; use an interpreted or compiled programming language. < 1348014395 110839 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with a PC register is that it gets complicated once you start doing out of order and stuff < 1348014407 278263 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ARM PC is barely a register at all anymore < 1348014416 144364 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But it's gotta scale, though. < 1348014424 974288 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has all sorts of occasions where using it as a register is forbidden < 1348014427 910508 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need json encoding as an instruction < 1348014448 89730 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the end you kinda get cheated out of a register < 1348014464 816173 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yes I think it can gets complicated, but I can make one that is different. < 1348014506 604138 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interest of having a PC register is probably doing PC relative addressing < 1348014555 540214 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1348014559 187532 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be useful for uhh < 1348014567 49950 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonghits < 1348014580 889390 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes.. < 1348014607 518474 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :RogueVM is never meant to be hardware (it is software only), so it does not have those problems when PC is R0. If you use R15 as a stack pointer, you may return from a subroutine using the (single-byte) instruction: MTR R0 R15+1 < 1348014626 862595 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah for software VMs the design considerations are different < 1348014635 916872 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With hardware CPU, the best way to do may depend to use least gate and most speeds. < 1348014653 229760 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you want to use as few opcodes as possible and as many parameters/addresses/etc as possible with a vm < 1348014657 630315 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it may make it strange, I think. < 1348014671 98995 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so turning flow execution into a memory location you write to probably makes sense < 1348014708 507748 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: yeah for hardware cpus... RISC tends to win < 1348014735 205298 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except maybe before cache where everybody was CISC < 1348014742 693403 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because denser code = faster code < 1348014761 23400 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not true anymore once your loop is in code cache) < 1348014798 756453 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for VMs it helps to have complicated instructions because you reduce the interpretive overhead < 1348014812 527584 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's assuming you are doing a straight up interpreter and not something fancier < 1348014817 600200 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1348014821 941037 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For hardware CPU, I want one with self-modifying microcodes. < 1348014827 613793 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oho < 1348014831 472134 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I miss Cybertown < 1348014838 750203 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: that's an interesting idea < 1348014855 549496 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have ideas about VMs. one such idea was to just build a VM on top of an API < 1348014894 521583 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i didnt think of it that way before entirely < 1348014901 2279 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter for LuaJIT decodes the next instruction just before dispatching the previous instruction < 1348014914 973161 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in hopes of keeping the ALU busy through a mispredicted indirect jump < 1348014917 802284 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have many other ideas for designing CPU hardware, too. < 1348014936 152672 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i also have an idea of a nes vm < 1348014937 375626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interpreter for LuaJIT does all sorts of nifty things. < 1348014981 577071 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i was reading http://wiki.luajit.org/New-Garbage-Collector today < 1348014983 127709 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good stuff < 1348014989 486762 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the luajit guy is some kind of wizard < 1348015013 853386 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: the problem is making it all worth it < 1348015110 273586 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik the optimal circuit design is to fill it with a whole bunch of slow but efficient pipelined ALUs, but you'll never be able to write a program for that < 1348015124 520680 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it would be worth it if: * It is for sale * GCC and/or LLVM can target it * Patent-free * Fast * Not too expensive * Not too much power use * A few other things too. < 1348015159 557049 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.luajit.org/New-Garbage-Collector#Bitmap-Tricks < 1348015177 372502 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write a JIT-thing sometime. It sounds like fun. < 1348015178 97912 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: But you would need some way to read instructions too, and then you will be able to write a program for that, I think. < 1348015220 422585 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, supposed you doubled down on adders < 1348015253 37912 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and made something like a 1024bit SIMD or something crazy like that < 1348015278 686610 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but every pipelined addition takes 10 cycles to execute < 1348015292 895886 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd need 10 things going on at the same time to be efficient < 1348015300 685128 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no compiler could target that < 1348015310 374538 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long before x86 SIMD registers are extended to 1024 bits < 1348015330 197529 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ALU and instruction reading is not good enough; also have multiplexing (like Muxcomp esolang), self-modifying LFSR-based PC microcodes, and a few more. And then, make multi-core, and then you would have enough. < 1348015340 463567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are they at now, 256? < 1348015343 565664 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: they're being extended to 256 atm < 1348015363 651247 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1348015367 292515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haswell will let you do integer operations on them. < 1348015373 951835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now you can only do some kind of boring floating point thing. < 1348015390 170145 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 x float isn't boring :D < 1348015400 560040 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 floats isn't cool < 1348015410 220573 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what's cool? 8192 floats < 1348015419 673916 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahah < 1348015427 395777 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would never fit on any chip ever :D < 1348015459 695751 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( that would never fit on any chip ever :D ) < 1348015486 842506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: What if they were 2-bit floats? < 1348015497 685118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many bits do you need for a float to be meaningful? < 1348015505 482675 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :0, 1, 0.5, NaN < 1348015505 749305 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1348015506 218837 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, so you get to chose between 0, 0.5, 1, and 2? < 1348015511 527383 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahah nan < 1348015515 928403 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta have NaN < 1348015518 153801 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No sign bit? < 1348015526 442628 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a sign bit! < 1348015533 446773 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+0, +Nan, -0, -Nan < 1348015544 961103 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :-N, +N < 1348015564 630010 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah 32bit floats are kind of a sweet spots < 1348015577 636115 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's support for 16bit floats here and there but it's kinda specialized < 1348015581 440065 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gfx stuff) < 1348015607 224572 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you write a fast inverse square root for 2-bit floats? < 1348015615 745423 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's called a lookup table < 1348015638 187430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :More of a look-out table. < 1348015641 652540 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :today i spent an hour looking at profiler output and learned nothing < 1348015648 306453 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you profiling? < 1348015652 13807 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i spent five minutes adding 'print time.time()' to my code and found the slow bits < 1348015659 927502 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: a django app < 1348015675 657584 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, one of those secret things. < 1348015680 512792 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some trick to using profilers < 1348015682 349200 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since when do people profile django apps? < 1348015687 989310 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never had a really enlightening experience with one < 1348015698 469762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I've derived some useful information from instruction-level profiling before. < 1348015698 791284 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a=5; sign x=+,y=-; a*=y; < 1348015712 223002 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :floats are really nice for sound processing < 1348015724 773927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: There is nothing sound about floats. < 1348015735 848356 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what kind of information? < 1348015745 910996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've taken to calling them "floating-point values" instead of "floating-point numbers". < 1348015763 888180 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :floating point-values < 1348015767 97161 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If some CPU is made by FPGA, use some FPGA with a open specification, so that it can be dynamically reprogrammed with exactly what it decide by itself to need for some computations at some time. < 1348015772 459961 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything's made up and the points don't matter < 1348015782 381962 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I don't remember the details. < 1348015790 35009 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: except there are no open specification FPGAs afaik < 1348015801 932195 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some cases it was as simple as "this is the slow part", which is useful enough. < 1348015819 144434 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :today python cProfile + kcachegrind failed to give me that basic information < 1348015831 690766 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Some have been reverse-engineered partially, I think. < 1348015834 731274 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead it gave me a lot of confusing bullshit < 1348015842 938788 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions which take a lot of time and seemingly have no callers < 1348015844 39828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I remember correctly it involved dividing one CPU hardware counter value by another. < 1348015852 821320 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :all buried within the std lib < 1348015865 247587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know about profiling Python. < 1348015877 772653 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the rule of thumb about Python was "it's all slow". < 1348015898 382415 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah the big problem with cpu design is latency < 1348015899 585242 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I could make a open specification FPGA then I think a lot of people would buy it; some people because they like open source, some because they like dynamic programming, and some for both reasons. < 1348015917 653075 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some bits are slower than others < 1348015929 980631 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I've never gotten useful information from GHC's profiler, but I've never tried very hard. < 1348015933 51040 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a web app it's often that you're making too many SQL queries in some particular place < 1348015943 380041 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not the host language's fault < 1348015951 67712 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in addition, if we can use a same format instead of changing it too often, they can even replace the FPGA chip with a newer model and it will still work OK. < 1348015956 209160 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably if you add all the cost centres by hand or something it can work out, but I've never gotten information from it "easily". < 1348015997 590635 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: probablem is that, what if the new model has 4x more gates but they had to add in 1.2x more latency? < 1348016178 880237 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i've never had good success with ghc's profiler either < 1348016198 99109 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: If it was like that, there are a few possibilities: One is to include one smaller area with 1x latency. Another is to continue producing the older model too. Third is to have to rewrite the program anyways. Regardless, though, the bitstream format should be kept the same as much as possible. < 1348016206 777957 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i have successfully profiled c code in the past but i don't really remember the story < 1348016211 510778 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This way you can use all the same software to program it with. < 1348016215 875564 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oftentimes manual sampling in gdb is all you need < 1348016243 502531 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: ah yeah perhaps < 1348016266 975837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yep, that's my experience too. :-) < 1348016279 265892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are so many little things you do while trying to optimize C code, and profiling can be one of them. < 1348016337 164858 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So even if the latency does change, you would not need an entirely new computer program to program the FPGA (you only need to change the setting), also if using dynamic programming you would only need to take into account the different latency and otherwise work the same. < 1348016349 901095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Have you used "perf"? < 1348016354 555311 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little < 1348016366 105220 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find that the internet optimizes my music access rates < 1348016406 58426 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh for fuck's sake < 1348016428 569234 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg youtube < 1348016438 896774 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What did those Clojure people do this time? < 1348016495 414760 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's me being weird this time < 1348016533 728368 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you on worlds.com again? < 1348016555 20043 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now appear to think that my idea of a type to hold a value of a type to be determined later is possibly an applicative functor, and at the very least a functor... wait, hmm < 1348016599 563076 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, how to hold a value of a type to be determined later? Wouldn't it be something with a class constraint? < 1348016638 439989 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How else are you supposed to determine the type after the value is written? < 1348016647 649279 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of before < 1348016660 867074 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to replicate return-value polymorphism in a dynamically typed language. My idea comes down to just returning a type that holds a function and that function is called with the desired type, producing the result value < 1348016738 26315 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: I guess it could be a workable platform for stuff like games and synths < 1348016767 210955 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :games: game defines its own "sound chip" and "video chip" dedicated to its own specific needs < 1348016798 151459 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :synth: obviously defines its own custom targetted pipeline too < 1348016905 666854 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl has return-value ad-hoc polymorphism < 1348016918 249466 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function can determine whether it is being called in scalar or array context < 1348016922 53362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yes it could be good for those things, and perhaps find other use too. < 1348016922 598660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Limited to three types, though. < 1348016935 770055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is pretty different from type classes. < 1348016968 448998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell it would be the equivalent (sort of) of returning (Scalar,Array,Hash) < 1348016982 994054 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: hm, you'd need something that's not IO-limited or memory-bandwidth-limited < 1348016993 3415 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: or calculation-latency limited < 1348017011 953508 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :data T x y = T (forall y. x y -> y); Would something like this to do something? < 1348017049 925361 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1348017060 633420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No. < 1348017091 378960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't shadow in data type declarations, man. It's not polite. < 1348017093 708449 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You are right; it might not do something. < 1348017108 193187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "shadow in data type declarations" mean? < 1348017130 214975 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1348017135 593165 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a mistake anyways. < 1348017137 328374 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: essentially it would be good for the kind of stuff the CELL is used for < 1348017142 867089 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant: data T x = T (forall y. x y -> y); < 1348017163 836718 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1348017207 324421 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: OK < 1348017240 530261 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kinda why AVX (new x86 SIMD) did float first < 1348017253 920745 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where most of the bigtime usage is < 1348017271 133066 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That y inside the parentheses isn't the same as the y outside. < 1348017273 663281 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Oh. < 1348017275 77384 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(games, multimedia) < 1348017282 996430 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other usages tend to be IO-limited < 1348017290 20490 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: That was a mistake. I didn't mean to put the y outside. < 1348017302 504981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That might be useful... I don't know for that. < 1348017304 936516 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: OK < 1348017315 315273 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know for sure either. < 1348017338 864255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like class Extract f where extract :: f a -> a < 1348017368 282985 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I insane? < 1348017385 589459 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it would be something like that, but not quite, because it is a data type instead of a class. < 1348017396 776617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1348017400 48079 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: In what way? That way, or the other way? < 1348017417 453440 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no its only code and math... it's not a reflection on you personally < 1348017539 115995 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean by that is, you can't be insane simply by choice of programming languages, or by choice of engineering problems < 1348017900 359773 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Yin Wang (the guy explaining the Yin-Yang call/cc problem) also hates layout syntax too. < 1348018078 251730 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one neat idea I've had is to have, say, 32 ALUs, with 32 registers and 64 multiplexers < 1348018116 489450 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each instruction is simply the OP for each alu and which register each multiplexer reads from < 1348018183 316863 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could do a routine where each alu keeps the same op every cycle and it's just values trickling down the pipeline < 1348019049 228589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1348019563 330329 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that the linux community should plan for the release of windows8 with a plan for converting windows users < 1348019699 998529 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares < 1348019702 593664 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a slogan like "we don't completely hate you" < 1348019741 273560 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :microsoft is no longer the evil empire < 1348019746 446627 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are rapidly becoming completely irrelevant < 1348019751 670384 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1348019761 259594 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you care about Software Freedom or whatever, then worry about converting iphone users < 1348019772 607481 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but iphones are stupid :P < 1348019780 461712 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :iphone users all the time, telling them to convert. They never listen. < 1348019851 543659 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i admit i don't care about the fate of people using mobile devices < 1348019882 107378 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't understand < 1348019893 491475 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in another 10 years the majority of people will only own iphone-like devices < 1348019900 121643 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they will have a small iphone that fits in their pocket < 1348019907 480541 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a tablet one with a detachable keyboard < 1348019910 465105 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one that's part of their car < 1348019911 244190 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1348019919 86947 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but none of these will be user-controlled general purpose computers < 1348019966 517986 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sort of see what you're saying. < 1348019991 528893 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :focusing on converting windows desktop users is hilariously '90's < 1348020014 48090 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :im worried about the welfare of the code written by desktop users < 1348020042 47119 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1348020044 348091 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :written? < 1348020049 938402 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most users don't write any code < 1348020059 994178 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1348020065 548636 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm < 1348020070 408399 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most users don't care about software freedom < 1348020074 842925 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not saying they should care < 1348020084 393145 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aparently they tried to switch to ipads in some schools and it didn't work < 1348020085 73123 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the kind of people who worry about "converting windows users" usually think they should < 1348020126 260855 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone writes code and the code no longer works on anyones computer a few years later, then the users are missing out :D < 1348020149 486739 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is one reason I am going to make up the computer, which should have simplicity and people who know how can learn to make up their own compatible computer, or if they don't want to do that, purchase it from my company. It can also use emulators. < 1348020151 809395 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if code does stop working though < 1348020176 307251 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what you're talking about < 1348020181 629445 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not exactly the first time < 1348020214 545704 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: I don't know either; if require you could try to use an emulator. But in some cases the code will always work, for example TeX can be updated to work on a new computer, and any Plain TeX document will continue to work exactly the same way 100 years in future as they do now (but possibly compiles faster). < 1348020375 291319 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :each time an API is updated, a bunch of new books are published, articles and tutorials are written, and forums probably fill up discussing it.. but the cycle begins again on the next update < 1348020436 776108 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nice if API hosts could be honest and predict when the client code would stop working < 1348020478 888522 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of an expiry date system on APIs < 1348020482 933941 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck C++. < 1348020499 513183 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ IO is the worst IO of any language I have seen. < 1348020543 734124 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Plain TeX basically doesn't expire :D < 1348020547 296209 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this metric < 1348020660 493798 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Java's IO considered decent? < 1348020699 166492 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that I want to use Java, but Clojure tends not to wrap Java stuff like that) < 1348020700 256976 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'unno. It can't be worse than C++ IO. < 1348020710 222726 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ IO is *actually worse than C's*. < 1348020715 336172 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: so i was set off by accidently clicking a win8 article, and at the end i realized the product is expiry dates on software. < 1348020725 759962 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to god-damned work at that. < 1348020804 900626 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://tinyurl.com/6m6ent2 < 1348020840 451586 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21 : sounds like same thing as apple does < 1348020876 759703 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: hmm.... i dont see how such dates would actually help people... but it could motivate people to code on the VM level more < 1348020893 638742 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21 : it doesn't help people < 1348020897 79933 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or platform independant languages < 1348020922 191976 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helps microsoft not compete itself to death with old, well designed versions of windows (XP and 7 in particular) < 1348020943 838069 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :im still on xp :D < 1348020950 794957 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah exactly < 1348021054 93781 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you end up doing is that you keep your core features in portable C++ then keep doing interface for each crap platform/bunch of libraries du jour as they come and go < 1348021070 247482 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should not have to go down to C just to tell if "read an int from text" actually errored or not. < 1348021134 914118 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm always under the impression the text file IO in C/C++ is crap < 1348021155 150762 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: C++'s is worse. < 1348021168 589801 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is anemic, but it is possible to write correct programs in it. < 1348021205 244194 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@erq38.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348021214 562571 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like "C sucks at strings" and "text files = bunch of strings" < 1348021215 988112 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is full-featured, but the only types of errors you have are "bad", "fail" and "eof". And they don't even get used well... < 1348021233 198162 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, sometimes, an EOF will set the fail error condition. < 1348021259 295129 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@erq38.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1348021279 175643 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in C, it is possible to handle certain types of errors. < 1348021310 332665 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, you try to read an integer, from text, in... < 1348021310 426801 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about all the stuff like XML and JSON < 1348021320 49657 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C, you'll get told there was a parse error. < 1348021330 488682 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C++, you'll get told there was an error, which could be one of many things. < 1348021357 866806 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to mention, the syntax for C++ IO is itself terrible. < 1348021372 463525 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU ARE GOD DAMNED BITSHIFTING IN AND OUT OF THE IO STREAMS < 1348021380 213678 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahaha yeah < 1348021394 183464 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so, they set an example for everyone that improper use of operator overloading is proper. < 1348021405 347692 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there better text file IO libs? < 1348021445 723041 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least they didn't mess up the vectors and maps < 1348021552 266375 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will invent a language where the only conditions are "awesome" and "fail" < 1348021571 152671 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will call it... the internet < 1348021575 472201 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ IO is *really damned close* to that. :( < 1348021594 616858 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, C++ only has "good" < 1348021595 573908 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, whoever made the fail() method return true if the failbit *or* the badbit were set, is a dick. < 1348021608 458991 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days, to call something merely "good" instead of "awesome" is a serious insult < 1348021641 348956 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry for the ranting, but I'm having to do an assignment in C++ again. < 1348021659 558241 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And finding myself actually wishing for the sanity of C. < 1348021677 926084 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I feel wrong writing C-in-C++) < 1348021781 977466 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This makes me think that Maybe is a bad idea, and that Either is probably better. < 1348021792 722456 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :ap : (Box a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c; ap x y z = x {z} (y z) < 1348021820 816202 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Maybe's alright for some things. < 1348021829 292620 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esoteric set theory. < 1348021856 355532 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :read_and_parse_and_everything_else :: IO (Maybe [String]) -- is god damned retarded. < 1348021880 394437 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is conflating multiple kinds of errors into one, without *any* way of telling otherwise. < 1348021881 92817 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in a dynamically typed language, I don't think having the distinction is useful, because if you want a Left that doesn't contain information, it's easy to just stuff it with nil < 1348021902 722749 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Ah. < 1348021904 989453 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kay, yeah. < 1348021926 724980 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that should clearly be ListT (ListT (MaybeT IO)) Char. < 1348021951 462725 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ListT any good? < 1348021983 886683 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember kids: in C++, "no such file", "ran out of disk space", and "parse error" are *basically* the same thing! < 1348021996 247994 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come they didn't use exceptions < 1348022148 160496 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Oh, you can turn on exceptions. < 1348022157 75925 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, there are 3 types of exceptions it'll throw. < 1348022160 576397 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail, bad, and eof. < 1348022180 689594 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some things set fail on eof. < 1348022306 873263 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1348022331 354768 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1348022344 69402 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1348022745 231499 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@erq38.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348022812 42199 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@erq38.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1348023044 677465 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that idea i had.. oh yeah.. after the profile topic it occured to me that another type of programming game genre aside from soccer and battling to the death might be racing < 1348023113 667417 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :or metajousting! < 1348023137 131541 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :bfjoust is a sort of race, after all < 1348023181 834885 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i forgot, golf is racing < 1348023190 150993 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a more boring name < 1348023199 306885 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is golf racing < 1348023212 298649 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: Arc_Koen < 1348023216 428691 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why im not normal! < 1348023220 101828 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i make such analogies < 1348023220 400554 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make few strokes? < 1348023232 563050 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the goal in golf is usually to do something in less code, not to do it in fewer cycles < 1348023240 942169 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. if you consider a game like snakes and ladders without the snakes and ladders < 1348023250 42993 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it is boring < 1348023272 595562 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :where.. the uhhh < 1348023283 610283 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1348023295 322555 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :being a strategyless game already < 1348023296 321542 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the inverse of how many hits it takes you to sink the balls < 1348023299 482240 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it already is boring < 1348023316 291335 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether that actually makes real sense i don't know < 1348023402 270991 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the board is 100 tiles, starting at the first "tile" < 1348023419 417146 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and.. thinks to myself.. i really have to go out.. < 1348023434 855141 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why you are not normal! Do you expect people of this channel are very normal? I think not. < 1348023443 138742 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you trying to invent a programming game < 1348023446 306252 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :smell you later < 1348023449 981329 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: If the board is 100 tiles and there are no teleports, the game ends in at most 99 moves. < 1348023475 777918 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on average, what, a third of that? < 1348023476 27105 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming a standard six-sided dice) < 1348023487 92961 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, yes. < 1348023489 849273 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget what numbers are on the spinner < 1348023519 136676 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the game with the spinner, or the slice ratios. < 1348023571 824668 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you have spinner with different numbers and slice ratios and teleports, then it would be more complicated to determine the mean, median, standard deviation, and so on, as well as the probability of winning from a given position. < 1348023585 64356 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@erq38.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/ < 1348023618 432225 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right < 1348023621 344969 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it usually uses dice < 1348023623 256869 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1348023632 818509 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no strategy in it < 1348023637 350680 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you add slices which have multiple numbers on them to the spinner, in which case the player selects the best choice. < 1348023643 300883 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes, you are correct about that. < 1348023656 444187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking not of strategy but of probability and statistics. < 1348023678 268543 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With teleports it may be possible that higher numbered positions are not always better. < 1348023715 456474 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to make snakes and ladders better, so that it is not completely determined by dice rolls? < 1348023745 232593 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Milton Bradley version of Chutes and Ladders has 100 squares, with 19 chutes and ladders. A player will need an average of 39.6 spins to move from the starting point, which is off the board, to square 100. < 1348023749 432931 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps; I have some ideas: Add cards, and add some ability for the players to use these cards not only to make moves but also to manipulate the teleports. < 1348023779 724788 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the cards are hidden information; also add the backgammon doubling cube. And add multiple pieces per player. < 1348023787 348298 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might improve the game. < 1348023787 366817 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :with you, it's always about adding cards! is there a way to do it just changing the board? < 1348023853 752587 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haunting House does a lot of what you say. < 1348023864 551837 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has no dice. < 1348023869 335745 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a racing game. < 1348023883 79378 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has no chutes or ladders, but it does have forced movement < 1348023892 462017 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the standard game prohibits teleports with another teleport at the destination. However, you could generalize the rules to allow it; if you teleport to a teleport, the second teleport is not active (it is only active if you get there by a dice roll). < 1348023931 127649 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I would consider Haunting House a massive rewrite of chutes and ladders < 1348023945 533041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1348023983 993535 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can think of middle ground: what if a player had cards to let them choose between moving their own piece, or moving the start or end of a ladder or chute to an adjacent (Moore neighborhood) square. < 1348024005 847697 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no dice. Just cards. < 1348024032 634882 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is an idea. I don't know quite how well it works, but it is an idea. And then perhaps improvements can be made from that too < 1348024066 367040 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what < 1348024122 573539 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think of it right now. But one possibility is the backgammon doubling cube (although you don't have to actually use a cube; you could mark it on paper or whatever). < 1348024134 742649 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do < 1348024182 615214 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On your turn, if you are not the last player to double, you can offer to double the score of the winner. The opponent may accept, in which case the game continues and whoever wins earns double points, or resign, in which case it is not doubled. < 1348024208 375069 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no score in chutes and ladders? < 1348024230 37518 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know; when no score is used, a game is worth 1 point. < 1348024240 414411 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1348024304 89531 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With your idea of moving the teleports, you could use tiles which are placed on the board and have letters on them so they are paired, and then you have two possibilities to make the game: [1] Snakes remain snakes and ladders remain ladders. [2] Sources remain sources and destinations remain destinations. < 1348024347 741463 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the latter < 1348024440 202773 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also a third possibility, where both conditions must hold (and you are not allowed to make a move which results in this changing) < 1348024459 589185 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehhhh < 1348024531 460792 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to like possibility [2], though, like you do. < 1348024617 965981 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am just enumerating some of the possibilities. < 1348024636 205064 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Haunting House pretty much makes all the changes I would make. It's ALMOST everything I would want in a racing game. < 1348024661 385237 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1348024707 644327 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll play you next time i'm in your neighborhood < 1348024743 141012 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the book Winning Ways the authors show how to treat Snakes and Ladders as an impartial game in combinatorial game theory even though it is very far from a natural fit to this category. To this end they make a few rule changes such as allowing players to move any counter any number of spaces, and declaring the winner as the player who gets the last counter home. Unlike the original game, this version, which they call Adders-and-Ladders, inv < 1348024794 92148 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.braingames247.com/playgame/4059/adders-and-ladders.html < 1348024850 452908 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348024880 8861 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1348025169 372872 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moving up the snakes and down the ladders is like making a chess variant which is FIDE except the bishops move like FIDE knights and the knights move as FIDE bishops. It is better to simply make the variant modifying the initial position, isn't it? < 1348025358 697582 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i couldn't get the game to run < 1348025360 342119 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course, with snakes and ladders, you generally use a fixed board, so you could use the same game to play the variant where you move up the snakes and down the ladders, instead of using a second board where they are transposed.) < 1348025378 561229 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does make a large difference in amount of time the game takes if you move the snakes and ladders < 1348025380 852588 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I can't either, but that isn't important. I just read the description. < 1348025412 410205 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :which tells me that just adding a rule that lets you move the sources and destinations would significantly increase the strategy < 1348025432 602697 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes, that is true. Depending on the teleports it does change the average number of moves (like I said, with no teleports at all, the game ends in at most 99 moves) < 1348025468 361010 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, yes, adding such a rule could work if done correctly. Using cards that allow it, held in your hand and hidden from the other player, may work. < 1348025484 217518 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but the interesting thing is how you can lengthen the game by adding ladders and shorten a game by adding chutes < 1348025488 531563 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to like games that involve skill, chance, and hidden information, together. < 1348025514 905269 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1348025524 816396 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can have a lot of chaos < 1348025526 671726 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes. Like I said before: In the presence of teleports, higher numbered spaces are not always better. < 1348025530 320839 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you remove chance < 1348025563 168941 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, you like MTG or at least pokemon < 1348025569 944669 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does not usually involve chance < 1348025574 793738 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like both Magic: the Gathering and Pokemon. < 1348025590 552241 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1348025593 360530 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have some chance < 1348025601 89342 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of initial deck order < 1348025610 155419 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In both games there is chance in shuffling the cards. If playing Limited, there is also chance in what cards you manage to get. < 1348025640 862921 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also in both games there are some cards involving coin tosses (a lot more in Pokemon card, but Magic: the Gathering has a few, too) < 1348025652 760035 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like < 1348025680 24797 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could craft a card game where the players intentionally pick the order of the cards < 1348025688 200708 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be very strategic < 1348025767 23654 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1348025782 456442 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know a game with hidden information, skill, and no chance. < 1348025782 877534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have once read about a variant of Magic: the Gathering (it works with Pokemon and other similar card games too) where both players are given equivalent decks but each can choose the initial order of the cards (the opponent won't see them) instead of shuffling. < 1348025793 495631 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes exactly! < 1348025823 95194 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/34887/revolution there is this game < 1348025825 943347 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a betting game < 1348025834 119981 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :no chance < 1348025850 142988 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's essentially a complex rock-paper-scissors < 1348025871 286760 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1348025875 423259 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :a complex minority game < 1348025885 46817 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mix of the two < 1348025895 233021 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348025896 717010 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1348026023 285021 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some anime convention (many years ago, not this year) I have played a game where the board consists of a few areas which are initially set up at random, each player is dealt a single card (from a shuffled deck) which is kept secret, and the rest of game involves no chance and no hidden information. < 1348026108 683149 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could win either by accumulating a number of points or by owning properties equal to what your card says (they always total the same ammount). < 1348027544 631027 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds a lot like the discworld game < 1348027561 215548 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that may have randomness? i dont remember < 1348028033 923101 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nsfslideshow.asm is written. Now I need to write nsfslideshow.c and then I think my job is finished. < 1348030625 31213 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know discworld game. < 1348030669 48230 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah I've invented the worst set of sounds for a constructed language < 1348030744 886709 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :pzeirrvzqmziqwmiqudhuodjaniewudbuiqnwiubewybeuibiwuniusbqwiusqysvwqtysvtwqysgiewhdoiwehiownxioqmmzxiohdknuhfdshkjehlirwmcilwhmcuilrwemcljcfhuwhclmefhumcghiwmr < 1348030827 585450 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's got like everything :o < 1348031451 196303 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't mean to interrupt < 1348031459 570759 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to spaek < 1348031545 343367 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an 8 tone system :D < 1348031610 877154 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a¯ a- ah a_ a´ a/ a` a\ (hi, med, med-low-breathy, low, high-rising, low-rising-creaky, high-falling, low-falling) < 1348031926 352161 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 16 vowels : (front) i é è ê a (front rounded) eu u (central) e ù (back rounded) ò o ou (back pharyngeal/wide) êu û (back pharyngeal/wide lax rounded) â ôu < 1348031933 838326 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus nasal vowels ofc < 1348032112 235818 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :29 consonants: p t ts tch k b d g mb nd ng hm hn hgn hrn m n gn rn f s ch h hr v z j gh r < 1348032127 806404 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not counting semi-vowels like y, w) < 1348032153 592897 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then, make a file describing what you have. < 1348032198 903333 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at the grammar step... I have all sorts of interesting ideas but it's hard to tie it all together < 1348032236 671795 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least your language will be nicer than esperanto and lojban, but not klingon < 1348032266 981269 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that the rich inventory of sounds makes it possible to keep the words short < 1348032352 322868 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :humm < 1348032376 291531 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it takes more time to go though a syllable but you have less syllables in words < 1348032458 381289 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the most complicated a syllable can get is consonant + diphthong < 1348032463 298574 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. thinking aloud: natural language io is based on the ear and the mouth. despite each ear and each mouth being unique, they are sufficiently alike to communicate with a common set of rules < 1348032526 926463 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to english where you can get consonant + consonant + consonant + diphthong + consonant + consonant + consonant :D < 1348032554 288021 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose that audio communication of natural language is limited to things common to all ears and mouths < 1348032585 140064 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah tends to use the sounds that are easy to pronounce and easy to recognise < 1348032591 403724 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if some mutant human was able to hear ultrasound, then too bad.. noone will be exploiting his ability to hear ultrasound < 1348032611 784575 :itidus21!~itidus21@CPE-120-148-51-163.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if some mutant human was able to speak in ultrasound then too bad < 1348032613 603673 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's surprising diversity in what is easy to pronuonce < 1348032637 38047 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, different languages have different strategies < 1348032697 255453 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some languages concentrate on a few easy, fast sounds, so that lots of syllables isn't a problem < 1348032700 788169 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like japanese < 1348032782 989147 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :others let syllables have a zillion elements so that the information content ramps up quickly < 1348032786 981217 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is like that < 1348032941 265960 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet others have like 6 different sources information per syllable, each of which can vary more or less independantly, for a huge number of combinations < 1348033056 648339 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :best example is chinanteco where each syllable has consonant, vowel, nasalisation, length, tone, accent, ending glottal stop < 1348033097 83209 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus: well, you're not going to play chords on a flute :D < 1348033112 537133 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: I suggest you mandate that all strings in it are gzip'd. < 1348033113 296699 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1348033134 181910 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1348033163 216779 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually natural language kinda does that a bit < 1348033193 282867 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeats of same information are compressed by being replaced by pronouns < 1348033232 160011 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or by nothing at all! < 1348033241 220821 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more common words are shortened down by slurring, abbreviation, etc < 1348033301 182684 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: also you can get CCCC codas not just CCC < 1348033344 220661 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :texts and stuff like that yeah < 1348033418 184119 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the big one in english is that most short words are CVC instead of CV < 1348033426 931943 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a huge boost in number of combinations < 1348033615 12169 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yeah, but still, natural languages have quite low entropy; you should try and reduce that, to make it the worst language. < 1348033618 490757 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1348033740 223392 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it already exists < 1348033741 523528 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or existed < 1348033745 145073 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :called Ubykh < 1348033756 195848 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one's a huge cheat < 1348033761 795042 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies! < 1348033780 95249 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reanalyse dee as "dyuh" < 1348033789 411905 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doo as "dwuh" < 1348033797 899064 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and day as "dya" < 1348033805 949060 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doh as "dwa" < 1348033810 572193 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just thinking about their uvular shit < 1348033814 932016 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckin 16 different versions of q < 1348033839 808873 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeat for all consonants and you divide your vowels by 3 and multiply your consonants by 3 < 1348033845 892968 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahah < 1348033859 55474 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theres also georgian < 1348033859 990428 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-145-146.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: *wince* < 1348033865 979245 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can definitely get... at least 8 < 1348033867 741921 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gvrtskpvnis! < 1348033978 422563 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :q qh q' * q qw qj... < 1348034011 224097 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more if you allow pharyngeals < 1348034028 101380 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :q' is really hard for me tho < 1348034120 746457 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? huh. its quite easy for me < 1348034180 941796 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uvular fricatives are much easier to me than stops < 1348034268 541162 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :q' and G are really hard imho < 1348034585 641974 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :order of difficulty for me: R > X > N > q > qh > NG > G > q' < 1348034713 756064 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you know DMSO is a panacea that the FDA is keeping from the people because it's too good for healing injuries? < 1348034743 963745 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heard that kinda story before < 1348034745 446345 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that makes so much sense < 1348034782 506180 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A page on angelfire.com with a yellow backgroudn and animated GIFs taught me this. < 1348034865 855451 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur : might depend on the variety of q... seems to me that there's the "kinda like a velarized k" version and the "german ch turned into a stop" version < 1348034908 601926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether dhmo.org was modeled after dmso.org < 1348034987 631459 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1348035456 127739 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the "Grotesque" chess game where all the black pieces are on the board, but white only has a king and a pawn (still on its initial square)? < 1348035948 678152 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.114.103.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348036247 848364 :madbr!boulam@24.157.253.190 QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1348038279 500354 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348038885 417189 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Do you know that edwardk uses a type class to make error messages less scary? < 1348039060 542954 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett, anyone else who cares but I forget who that is: update < 1348039071 686516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask elliott UPDATE < 1348039071 995367 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1348039285 645680 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1348039339 617610 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1348040054 634936 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-078-043-031-070.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1348040594 172373 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly QUIT :*.net *.split < 1348040594 300292 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1348040594 350830 :Sanqui!~SankyZNC@unaffiliated/sanky QUIT :*.net *.split < 1348041262 47974 :Sanqui!~SankyZNC@unaffiliated/sanky JOIN :#esoteric < 1348041262 48105 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly JOIN :#esoteric < 1348041262 48182 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1348042162 127387 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1348042360 914160 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1348042415 967678 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1348046939 110654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348047338 64407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348047349 999968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348047615 928893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1348047625 173306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348049831 363200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348049843 699360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348050437 521506 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :I HAVE NOW, ARRR | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | PT6TRPA6PM6K | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki < 1348050612 569107 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :I HAVE NOW, ARRR | Happy birthday to :-) | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | PT6TRPA6PM6K | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki < 1348050733 900618 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348050734 617822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1348050748 352080 :Yonkie!~Yonkie@cookness-diamond.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348050879 500603 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348051541 714816 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348052766 88667 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine mr. munroe, i give up. < 1348052909 865507 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot get to the end of that thing without exhausting my creaky old laptop's swap. _and_ getting my rsi recharged for days. < 1348052989 688386 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You quitter. It's just 165888x79872 pixels. < 1348053068 309956 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and i was only following the landscape, too; who might know what's deep in the isolated sky or earth? < 1348053086 642364 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie does, doubtless. < 1348053092 130537 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1348053099 218095 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's floating whales all the way up there, for example. < 1348053113 947355 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as things you'd more normally expect to find in air. < 1348053117 603716 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found a jellyfish, although that was close to the ground < 1348053135 350063 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's that too. < 1348053150 928744 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a couple of "minimaps" around the interwebs. < 1348053157 817128 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally. < 1348053168 221360 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a very large percentage of the whole space is used. < 1348053176 141754 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking! < 1348053186 343190 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://iclub.site40.net/xkcd.html < 1348053216 787726 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348053231 780862 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That one seems to be one of the rather memory-unfriendly ones, seeing that it loads all of the images. < 1348053249 765732 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mrphlip.com/xkcd1110/ has clickable separate thumbnails. < 1348053290 113716 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, sometimes I think Munroe only writes the crap xkcds as a front for making the cool ones. < 1348053342 702340 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's curious that 11n11w, 11n11e, 11s11w and 11s11e all exist, but seem to be just all-black/all-white squares. < 1348053426 361099 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wait, is this a crap or a cool one? < 1348053460 500700 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a cool one with crap elements. < 1348053611 350988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds the small part he actually managed to explore < 1348053614 316343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be a terribly bad idea to use Notepad++ to edit a Lisp < 1348053626 402848 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumes probably < 1348053651 851140 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1348053670 12638 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'd be missing out on tight access to a REPL < 1348053693 92149 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modifying code while it runs is one of the things that draws me to Lisps < 1348053702 79940 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although in Clojure's case it's kind of iffy, really < 1348054094 122874 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of the comic, I like how it's all more or less in scale. The big building is clearly Burj Khalifa of Dubai, and comparing to that, the radio mast (KVLY-TV mast of Blanchard, North Dakota) looks to be approximately the right size. (The cave-pyramid doesn't seem to be the Great Pyramid of Giza, though it could be one of the smaller ones.) < 1348054978 270030 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1348056752 244438 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have a question about thue < 1348056770 463306 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are multiple ways to apply a rule, what happens? < 1348056794 147595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348056816 130957 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance with the program "aa::=x \n ::= \n aaaa" < 1348056846 77822 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first time the rule is applied, will we get xaa, aax, axa, or xx? < 1348057176 157053 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My *guess* would be "any one of the three first options", since the rule selection itself is explicitly nondeterministic, but the documentation doesn't exactly seem to say it out loud. < 1348057253 14553 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it was specified that behaviour in that case is nondeterministic. < 1348057286 959580 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reference Python interpreter seems to first make a list of all matches of all rules, and then pick a single match to replace; either the leftmost, rightmost or random, depending on mode. < 1348057312 340691 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1348057336 181635 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was gonna go with "pick a rule at random, try to apply it; if you can't, pick another rule instead" < 1348058486 766632 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that works < 1348058555 789442 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348058770 528305 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :*.net *.split < 1348059066 71127 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1348059692 658644 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348059899 606087 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1348060124 858158 :ztirf!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-078-043-031-070.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de QUIT :Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de < 1348060319 831256 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348060345 213273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1348060474 683628 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1348060499 969224 :cuttlefish!~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:0:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348060924 125510 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348060951 960799 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1348061708 575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348061721 955341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348061770 948760 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1348062345 710810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348062359 296457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348062991 360866 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1348063786 346854 :kallisti!~eris@spirity.org QUIT :Quit: Changing server < 1348063805 893726 :kallisti!~eris@spirity.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1348063807 365815 :kallisti!~eris@spirity.org QUIT :Changing host < 1348063807 422623 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1348065122 292756 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1348065244 289132 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice, i found some code that looks like: switch (x) { case FOO: ... lbl: ... break; case BAR: ... goto lbl; } < 1348065257 134267 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1348065263 708416 :nortti!nortti@dsl-hkibrasgw3-ff25c000-52.dhcp.inet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1348065313 924441 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they have four or five case branches with a common suffix of code < 1348065322 819642 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's... not necessarily how i would write that < 1348065651 326540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348065676 973387 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1348065758 450182 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1348065765 798283 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1348065823 497594 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning. < 1348065990 97019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348066689 263440 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.114.103.170 QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1348066796 348544 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi boily < 1348067053 423819 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-109.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1348067117 952338 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-109.elisa.ee QUIT :Client Quit < 1348067329 253531 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348067686 313815 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: hi. < 1348067813 989956 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Betelgeuse is 1000 times larger than our sun, but it's only 15-20 solar masses < 1348067820 889020 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's density must be much lower? < 1348067832 30769 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it should produce heavier elements? < 1348068838 505331 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: The density of a star isn't uniform < 1348068876 955637 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: oh yes of cousre < 1348068878 949210 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :*course < 1348068900 553474 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :The heat is making the outer layer expand a lot more < 1348069148 964082 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348069270 34512 :Phantom___Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348069271 697089 :Phantom___Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Client Quit < 1348069289 11362 :Phantom___Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348069315 668894 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1348069479 965623 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348069593 925207 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348069758 971822 :Phantom___Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348069851 957774 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348069873 157964 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348069945 103850 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even outer to the outer layer, the density is 0!! < 1348070430 283843 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-212-114.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1348070603 369167 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 6.67 * 26 < 1348070604 391994 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 173.42 < 1348070664 226013 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-212-114.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1348070721 997922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1348072197 159897 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1348072557 279616 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1348073530 199196 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@esi206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1348073693 592281 :sivoais!~zaki@199.19.225.239 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1348073698 52505 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@esi206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348073745 751613 :sivoais!~zaki@199.19.225.239 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348073813 626482 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1348073930 642457 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1348073989 582365 :JaBoJa!~kvirc@esi206.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1348074163 745687 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1348075144 860278 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1348076102 624709 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348076616 776261 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1348076683 777028 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348077384 217593 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348077427 721568 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348077845 311639 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348077885 194537 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1348077885 380299 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1348077905 302276 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348077912 926885 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348077956 996652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348077989 252071 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1348078084 548025 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages? < 1348078085 138575 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, no messages today. < 1348078236 956543 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1348078390 949231 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348078851 153903 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1348078851 698556 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1348078872 917393 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348079205 266597 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so quiet. < 1348079218 193834 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1348079218 604299 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1348079218 921320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1348079219 223755 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1348079219 448417 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1348079222 762134 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, me and lambdabot are livin' it up < 1348079222 823137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@brain < 1348079223 169422 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wuh, I think so, Brain, but isn't Regis Philbin already married? < 1348079225 499967 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`shachaf < 1348079226 714912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@protontorpedo < 1348079227 87664 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it become a mishmash of code? < 1348079245 338226 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :845) elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity < 1348079289 796693 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :92) I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ... < 1348079294 225813 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :338) Yeah, I went through a whole series of existential crises when I was 8 or so. < 1348079294 541696 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shachaf: not found < 1348079296 52609 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :297) [After a long monologue] i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar < 1348079296 554134 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :451) rest in peace lambdabot???? monqy: it'll probably be back later nap in peace < 1348079369 2758 :atrapado!~za@2001:470:699e:1::11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348079417 76944 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: Are you the ion in http://bash.org/?152037 ? < 1348079498 89243 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don’t think so. < 1348079508 192564 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t remember a “dm” from anywhere. < 1348079689 962260 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:2e3d:3ef0:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1348079973 121616 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-23-251.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1348080278 960235 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1348080326 726563 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348080586 91856 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1348082819 357751 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1348082822 25963 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348082977 293032 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1348083001 970747 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348083329 103135 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trials of an obfuscated Haskell author... < 1348083330 390741 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: < 1348083330 484940 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : t10 < 1348083330 503561 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : = < 1348083330 503823 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : (((t10 -> t0) -> (t0 -> t0) -> t0) < 1348083330 503930 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> (t10 -> t0) -> (t0 -> t0) -> t0) < 1348083816 995873 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1348083970 846537 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348083983 210657 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1348084286 147573 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : and even outer to the outer layer, the density is 0!! < 1348084297 198143 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1348084336 487622 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would expect density 0 doesn't really exist anywhere < 1348084366 918224 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, approximately 0 < 1348084395 375482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely think i read that the outer parts of betelgeuse are less dense than the solar atmosphere around earth's distance < 1348084434 290374 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks wikipedia < 1348084437 745631 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that just solely depend on the definition of where the outer parts stop? < 1348084460 76953 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you'd say they stop when they stop radiating? < 1348084508 929168 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my knowledge of physics is far too thin to answer that question) < 1348084515 533720 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may remember wrong, though < 1348084569 42275 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1348084582 359921 :Lara!uid512@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qbvucjzrzttyolcx JOIN :#esoteric < 1348084603 630605 :Lara!uid512@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qbvucjzrzttyolcx PART :#esoteric < 1348084727 619134 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Consequently, the average density of this stellar mystery is less than twelve parts-per-billion (1.119 × 10−8) that of the Sun. Such star matter is so tenuous, in fact, that Betelgeuse has often been called a "red-hot vacuum".' < 1348084834 972626 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't give a comparison with the solar wind, though < 1348085311 480512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: insufficient unsafeCoerce? < 1348085340 173606 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, nah, I made a legitimate mistake < 1348085356 638789 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, as long as it wasn't illegitimate < 1348085940 952106 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1348086353 275001 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1348086379 877564 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> chr . read <$> words " 0 33 100 108 114 111 87 32 44 111 108 108 101 72" < 1348086381 792807 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "\NUL!dlroW ,olleH" < 1348086461 287182 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nuldlrow. < 1348087113 296244 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1348087175 712079 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a Ftack program? < 1348087391 733565 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :super stack! < 1348087404 976128 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well part of one < 1348087429 241199 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, goodnight! < 1348087440 718709 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-80-62.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1348087844 232915 :Tod-Autojoined!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1348087880 594879 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1348088792 167762 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches Oerjan as he goes on his daily tablifying spree < 1348088976 209341 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1348088998 448535 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tablifting? < 1348089026 213828 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lifts three tabs at once  < 1348089186 317416 :atrapado!~za@2001:470:699e:1::11 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1348089528 588776 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't sound like a very threatening illicit act, but maybe oerjan is a pro tablifter. < 1348090017 910870 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: Poulet! < 1348090030 610312 :cuttlefish!~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:0:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1348090193 104184 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1348090820 59158 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Seelp < 1348091296 805193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds that :.,$g/^/.,$s/^/ / in vim actually works to turn vertical lines diagonal :P < 1348091514 408232 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1348091911 534157 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-d9329b6e.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1348092210 932260 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to destress somehow < 1348092261 89818 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :why destress when you can distress? < 1348092277 249257 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1348092817 378620 :Yonkie!~Yonkie@cookness-diamond.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1348093452 772283 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudden terrifying insight: Javascript's 'this' is less like C++ or Java 'this' and more like Perl's $_ < 1348093487 158979 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a whole lot like $_, is it? < 1348093546 620977 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for example, jQuery.each(collection, function () { this.foo(); }) < 1348093559 815997 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also use an explicit argument if you like < 1348093622 178112 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jQuery does f.call(elem, elem) or something like that? < 1348093627 390910 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1348093634 269943 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is how you set 'this'? < 1348093653 54595 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normally when you call object.method() it's set automatically to object. < 1348093668 385867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can override it with fn.call(thisval, ...) or fn.apply(thisval, args) < 1348093676 848735 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1348093712 79164 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If jQuery does that, I'd call that a jQuery quirk more than a JavaScript thing. < 1348093747 825500 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :jQuery conventions are pretty different from JavaScript "conventions". < 1348093752 274692 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1348093758 458286 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had the impression this kind of thing was common in javascript < 1348093759 987908 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not < 1348094242 200070 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HATE INTEGRATED VIRTUAL NETWORKS < 1348094269 990043 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you really need to lead into it more than that < 1348094278 836963 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just sounds crazy < 1348094290 505800 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an integrated virtual network anyway? < 1348094295 468799 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a company < 1348094336 360046 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They bought Cybertown back in 2003 and put it on a subscription model. Late last year, they decided to make it free again. January of this year, it went down for a supposed server move, and never came back up. < 1348094338 877869 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the inverse of a derivative neural network < 1348094344 29954 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*virtual < 1348094348 472919 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're stull officially waiting for news, I think. < 1348097928 194088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1348099003 990323 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric