00:35:25 <shachaf> 17:34 <jmcarthur> kmc left #haskell?
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00:55:05 <Jafet1> The reports of kmc's departure are greatly understated.
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01:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> hey fizzie where's that colour averaging thing you made
01:10:55 <kmc> "Clark County is home to many tax-conscious conservatives, who came to income-tax-free Washington but settled close enough to the border to shop in sales-tax-free Oregon."
01:11:44 <zzo38> O, so do they only have to pay federal taxes then?
01:11:59 <zzo38> Or, do they have to pay property tax too?
01:12:10 <kmc> probably both
01:12:24 <kmc> and other income-related federal taxes like social security and medicare
01:12:29 <kmc> which aren't part of federal income tax proper
01:13:06 <shachaf> Maybe not, but the federal income tax tacks it on.
01:13:22 <kmc> also i don't know the law in WA specifically, but in general if you buy stuff tax-free in another state (or online) and bring it home, you might owe something to the state where you live
01:14:42 <kmc> in NY they make a guess about how much shit you bought online based on your income
01:14:59 <kmc> and charge you that by default
01:15:06 <kmc> but you can / might be required to itemize it under some circumstances
01:16:58 <kmc> this is also why Amazon has no engineering offices in Cambridge MA
01:17:20 <kmc> if they did, then all Amazon purchases from MA would be subject to sales tax, because the company has operations in the state
01:18:15 <kmc> however it sounds like the MA government is going to start requiring them to pay tax regardless
01:18:31 <kmc> so now they will open an engineering office
01:18:44 <kmc> and hire MIT grads to work in the code mines
01:21:39 <kmc> government gotta get paid
01:30:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rowan_Williams_-001.jpg
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01:40:43 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19746994 love the infographic
01:56:45 <zzo38> Maybe in Famicom Hangman I should have a time limit to push a letter, or a time limit to solve the puzzle, or both
01:59:35 <zzo38> If you have other ideas, then I might put that in too.
02:16:54 <kmc> it should be able to read mail
02:17:51 <zzo38> Read mail? Why? How do you expect it?
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04:01:14 <kmc> shachaf: Do you know how PaX KERNEXEC works on amd64?
04:02:29 <kmc> it's the feature which prevents executing userspace memory while in kernel mode
04:02:38 <kmc> on i386 this is easily accomplished with segmentation
04:02:58 <kmc> on amd64 they instrument each ret and indirect jump/call in the kernel
04:03:12 <kmc> specifically they 'or' the target with 0x8000000000000000
04:03:32 <kmc> if the target was a userspace address, the resulting address is non-canonical and there is a general protection fault
04:04:17 <kmc> this is more efficient than a test + conditional branch, but is still kinda slow
04:04:22 <shachaf> It'll stop working when we all get real 64-bit CPUs!
04:04:29 <kmc> to make matters worse, you need to keep 0x8000000000000000 around in some register
04:04:47 <kmc> it's true!
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04:05:38 <kmc> i wonder if ksplice could use gcc plugins usefully
04:06:01 <kmc> of course it would only work for distros using newish GCC
04:06:25 <kmc> also i wonder if there is a good channel for geeking out about systems and security things
04:06:44 <shachaf> There's ##systems which is pretty quiet.
04:07:45 <kmc> also i am easily annoyed by macho hacker personalities, which are common in security
04:07:58 <shachaf> I think it's mainly pkhuong and sbahra.
04:08:34 <shachaf> kmc: You should start your own channel!
04:08:56 <shachaf> I'd be in it so you could tell me all the "shachaf: Did you know" things.
04:12:42 <ion> Speaking of systems, i made a small stripboard circuit with a MAX232 equivalent and a GPS receiver and i’m running a stratum 1 NTP server now (for no particular reason).
04:17:28 <Sgeo_> What do you think of the parens scoping discussion?
04:17:58 <Sgeo_> Also, are you in there becasue of me.
04:19:58 <shachaf> I think that I'd rather avoid discussions with that particular individual.
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06:42:07 <fizzie> The part of the (AMD) manuals which speaks of canonical addresses specifically says that you shouldn't play tricks with them.
06:42:25 <fizzie> Well, I suppose to be exact it just says not to stuff things in the unused bits, but I suppose that sorta-counts too.
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07:20:19 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:20:22 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 40m 2s ago: hi are you
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07:59:52 <atriq> But I really mean ":("
08:08:30 <fizzie> "I say :), and you say :(", isn't that from a Beatles song.
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08:14:04 <atriq> Minecraft froze and took my mouse with it, so I panickd
08:14:19 <atriq> Also, I need help with Ubuntu. Dare I join #ubuntu?
08:17:03 <fizzie> It doesn't sound necessarily productive.
08:17:17 <fizzie> They have 1514 people in there.
08:17:27 <fizzie> (Probably a different number by now.)
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11:05:22 <Sgeo_> You know what VRML feature I just noticed to be rare to nonexistent in other 3D chat things? A feature to make something always appear to be facing the camera
11:06:58 <Sgeo_> "The primary time to ask questions is when the teacher is in human form. At all other times please raise your hand. (this gesture is not yet implemented)
11:07:28 <fizzie> Without the virtual-world context, that would be a very interesting statement to encounter.
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13:08:54 <atriq> I think I prefer Toshiba tech support to Samsung
13:08:59 <fizzie> Did I show this image here? I think I showed this image here. Anyway, sunlight, it's fancy: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/sunshine.jpg
13:09:03 <fizzie> (Also on the topic: naming files "csb.jpg", "p1.jpg", "test.jpg", "random.jpg" and so on makes it pretty hard to find a particular file later on.)
13:09:09 <atriq> THEY SPELT MY NAME WRONG
13:09:21 <fizzie> (Though it turns out that random.jpg is a picture of a computer with hostname 'random'.)
13:09:50 <Arc_Koen> guys I think I beat you all on the topic
13:10:11 <Arc_Koen> last time my father had to write my name on an official paper, he asked me to show him my id
13:10:27 <atriq> I was once booked into a hotel under the name "Random"
13:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> everyone says my name wrong until they've been corrected for at least a month
13:11:17 <fizzie> There is (or at least was; maybe he/she changed it) a child in New Zealand named "Number 16 Bus Shelter".
13:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> this includes people who have only ever heard my name, never seen it spelt
13:11:31 <atriq> That's pronunciation, not spelling.
13:11:35 <atriq> COMPLETELY different.
13:11:53 <fizzie> (We speculated that that's where e was conceived.)
13:12:44 <fizzie> Source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10523288 -- includes other great child names, such as "Fish and Chips", "Sex Fruit" (rather descriptive), and the topic of the article, "Talula Does The Hula From Hawaii".
13:13:06 <atriq> Is this the e who writes poems?
13:13:14 <fizzie> "A lawyer for Talula Does The Hula From Hawaii had reported the nine-year-old was so embarrassed about her name that she had not revealed it to her friends and was other wise known as 'K'."
13:14:38 <fizzie> There are probably similar lists from every country; I know I've seen one from Finland. (Even though both countries have rules about not allowing "offensive" names.)
13:24:28 <Arc_Koen> On that occasion the mother had named her daughter O.crnia but was prepared to concede to a condition of a parenting order so it could be adjusted to Oceania.
13:25:04 <Arc_Koen> "the judge who made the girl's name official couldn't interpreted my handwriting wrong"
13:27:54 <atriq> I'm starting to see Black Holes and Revelations/The Resistance/The 2nd Law as a cycle of concept albums
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13:30:16 <atriq> Except Exogenesis Symphony happens either after the 2nd Law or millenia earlier
13:30:56 <atriq> Actually, it goes quite well with "Animals"
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17:13:44 <fizzie> Daily piece of useless information: according to OED, 'triage' is pronounced as /ˈtraɪɪdʒ/, and "in sense 2 [assignment of degrees of urgency to wounds or illnesses] also /trijaʒ/, /ˈtriːɑːʒ/". (I would've gone with the something like the latter options even in general.)
17:16:38 <fizzie> Also, Steam's Portal 2 update log mentions the item "Fixed performance issue with lasers", and I can't figure out whether that's "fixed (performance issue with lasers)" or "fixed (performance issue) with lasers".
17:20:42 <fizzie> I can imagine Valve fixing things with lasers, it sounds appropriate.
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18:05:23 -!- Gregor has set topic: OK people, we need a new featured language. NOW. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
18:11:26 <Gregor> Just go back and forth? That's a good idea X-D
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18:13:39 <zzo38> No, I think you should pick a different one every time.
18:13:46 <zzo38> Unless none are eligible.
18:14:17 <atriq> (I think that was the joke, zzo38)
18:16:55 <zzo38> There is arule not to nominate yourself, but I think it ought to be allowed if none others are eligible.
18:17:15 <atriq> I don't think there's an immediate need for that
18:17:38 <atriq> I'm gonna double-suggest Malbonge, Underload, and Deadfish
18:19:03 <atriq> And it is possible to ask someone really nicely to nominate your language
18:20:45 <Gregor> I like everything about Funciton except for the interpreter being in C#.
18:21:54 <atriq> Re-implement it in ORK
18:24:36 <quintopia> what qualifies a language to be featured?
18:24:44 <atriq> People suggesting it
18:24:50 <Gregor> And it being good enough.
18:24:57 <atriq> And elliott making it featured
18:25:10 <atriq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates
18:26:00 <quintopia> i will nominate Aubergine, even though I don't even know if it will pass The Test™
18:26:33 <Gregor> Do not try to understand The Test™. Just know that The Test™ is watching you. Waiting. Testing®.
18:27:53 <Gregor> Do not fear The Test™.
18:27:59 <Gregor> Give yourself to The Test™.
18:28:33 <quintopia> ohhhh, Test™! I do so love you! Take me now! Or let me take you! *swoon*
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18:30:17 <Gregor> Misspelling the name of The Test™ only affects how many Post-Test Morale Beatings™ you will receive.
18:31:57 <atriq> quintopia, feel free to nominate Aubergine.
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19:05:59 <atriq> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19760977
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19:13:22 <Arc_Koen> hmm, Kipple is in the list, but I think its wiki page needs clarifications
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19:20:58 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: your request about 3-cell reversible brainfuck looks complicated :)
19:21:24 <oerjan> i _think_ one can define reversible collatz functions, and do reversible minsky machines with them.
19:22:04 <oerjan> then one needs to do ordinary reversible brainfuck and/or turing machines with the minsky machines
19:22:18 <oerjan> and reversible collatz functions with the 3-cell brainfuck
19:22:50 <oerjan> basically the usual path of reductions needs to be redone reversibly
19:23:15 <oerjan> ordinary=unbounded number of cells, but possibly with bounded values
19:26:45 <oerjan> oh hm http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.159.2776 is prior work from the minsky machine part onwards
19:26:59 <atriq> AnotherTest, why do you say that?
19:27:30 <AnotherTest> atriq: because you're probably the most active user
19:28:14 <atriq> I wondered if I ought to make a page
19:28:24 <atriq> And decided against it?
19:28:25 <oerjan> nothing on the first page at least for collatz functions
19:29:17 <AnotherTest> atriq: okay. I do find you deserve it though
19:31:10 <atriq> I'm not sure what to think
19:33:17 <AnotherTest> and I'm not a member of this community for a very long time
19:33:52 <atriq> I've been hear just over a year
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19:40:53 <atriq> Anyone else's thoughts?
19:45:41 <Arc_Koen> if you had such a page, what would be in it?
19:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> you would of course have to mention the Hexham Anomaly
19:46:57 <atriq> And my lost programming language
19:47:08 <atriq> (not actually lost, merely kind of embarrassing)
20:00:02 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: ok, new version of my kipple interpreter, going eve further away from the specs - now "i", "o", and "io" all refer to the same stack, which is actually not a stack
20:00:23 <Arc_Koen> and there is a special stack called "i@" which is actually not a stack either, and can be used to input numbers
20:00:48 <fizzie> To boldly go where no Kipple interpreter has gone before.
20:01:16 <Arc_Koen> if you have any other ideas they are very welcome
20:01:54 <Arc_Koen> though at some point I might need to rewrite it all over, rather than adding stuff here and there in the code and hoping it will still work
20:02:18 <Arc_Koen> note than now, (i+0) is a cat program
20:02:56 <AnotherTest> How do you "vote" for a featured language that is already a candidate?
20:03:29 <Arc_Koen> (because it takes a value from the input stack, duplicates it, and push the result to the input stack, which happens to be the output stack, and continue doing so until the input stack is empty, which happens when end of file has been reached)
20:06:33 <AnotherTest> I was thinking of voting for that, but the one problem that I have is that there is no implementation available
20:06:47 * Arc_Koen tries... OK, it turns out it is not a cat program, because the input stack is actually kind of a stack, which means i+0 only "peeks" at the top of the input stack (effectively reading a char from input and pushing it on the stack), and pushes a copy to output... so next iteration the same char will be read again... so it's actually a program that reads one char from input and prints it in an infinite loop
20:07:04 <AnotherTest> I think that the featured language should have an implementation that can be downloaded
20:07:23 <fizzie> I haven't really written any substantial Kipple ever, so I don't have any ideas. I have just a vague feeling that the major impracticality in writing a larger Kipple program is the lack of any sensible way to do subroutines. (Then again, that's not very practical in many other languages either.)
20:07:25 <Arc_Koen> so (i>o) or (o>i) or (io>io) or (i<o) or whatever is still the simplest cat program
20:08:28 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I'm pretty sure the featured language candidate list page contain a recommendation that the wiki page contain a link to an implementation
20:08:45 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but if someone [new] visits the wiki, they will perhaps see the featured language, click on it and then want to try it out
20:08:54 <AnotherTest> if there is no implementation however, that is not possible
20:09:06 <AnotherTest> also, I think the implementation often learns one a lot about the concept
20:09:35 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: well make use of it in any way
20:09:47 <Arc_Koen> a visual implementation of befunge (as in, a very very very very very very very very very very slow interpreter that actually shows the stack and the instruction pointer) is the best way to show the power of befunge to a newcomer!
20:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it's so completely different from the norm, you can't just say "oh well it's <language> but cut way down"
20:10:42 <AnotherTest> Yes, but that doesn't render an implementation unneeded, right?
20:11:27 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: how about a special execute stack that would execute chars pushed onto it as if they were kipple instructions
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20:14:14 <Arc_Koen> well, it would be more handy to have an execute command that would execute a stack as a kipple program, but I like the idea to have special stacks only, and no more commands
20:15:09 <quintopia> i had such a visual interpreter for spiral once
20:15:24 <quintopia> until those people at the computer repair place erased it
20:15:45 <Arc_Koen> so maybe it acts as a regular stack, until a special "trigger" character is pushed onto it, at which point it executes itself
20:16:22 <Arc_Koen> so you can push your subroutines to stacks, and when you want to execute a subroutine, you push a copy a the right stack to the execute stack, then push the trigger character to the execute stack
20:17:45 <Arc_Koen> but then you could say that if it requires a special character, you could have *any* stack be executable, when the trigger character is pushed on them
20:18:06 <zzo38> I think none of those are the best idea.
20:18:36 <Arc_Koen> but then to be able to use the trigger character on a stack, you'd have to escape it somehow
20:18:36 <zzo38> Perhaps, make one command which trigger the stack, what it does depend on which stack is selected (if it is not a special stack, it does nothing).
20:19:11 <Arc_Koen> though currently the input/output stack is already interactive, so they can't really be triggered
20:20:10 <Arc_Koen> (so that would mean using separate stacks for input and output again)
20:22:06 <zzo38> You could change it so that, it is input if you read the empty I/O stack, but otherwise you just read back the output, once triggered then its contents are send to output and it then becomes empty. Would this work?
20:24:36 <Arc_Koen> well my first version had separate input and output stacks
20:25:15 <Arc_Koen> the output stack was a regular stack, except with the side effect that when something had to be pushed onto it, it was printed out (but still pushed on the stack)
20:26:13 <Arc_Koen> and the input stack was also a regular stack, except that if it was empty and something tried to pop it it would return a char read from stdin instead of 0 (other stacks return 0 when empty)
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20:27:06 <Arc_Koen> in the new version I merged those two stacks, so trying to pop io would read a char from input, and trying to push x io would print x out (but not push it on any stack)
20:28:40 <Arc_Koen> so you're suggesting that it become a regular stack, except that if it's popped when empty it returns a char from stdin instead of 0, and if it's triggered its content is outputted and it is then cleared?
20:29:15 <Arc_Koen> I do have some problems though - it is sometimes possible to "peek" instead of pop
20:29:49 <atriq> A peek is just a dup followed by a pop on a stack
20:30:12 <Arc_Koen> yes but it's troublesome when the in and out stacks are merged
20:30:36 <Arc_Koen> it's like an anti-lazy evaluation
20:30:48 <Arc_Koen> for instance imagine the kipple program (i blabla)
20:31:04 <Arc_Koen> it's a loop that says "execute content of the loop until i is empty"
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20:31:58 <Arc_Koen> to know whether input is empty when using interactive io, my current solution is to read on char from io : if it's end of file then the stack is considered empty; else it is considered not empty, but that char must be kept for the next time someone tries to read i
20:32:59 <Arc_Koen> (otherwise the program "(i>o)", which is supposed to be a cat, would print only every other character)
20:33:12 <oerjan> pretty much how i feel too much of the time http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/?comic=489
20:34:18 <oerjan> DON'T FINISH THAT SENTENCE OR I'LL KILL YOU
20:34:34 <Arc_Koen> ha you don't know where I live
20:34:41 <Arc_Koen> (come to think of that, you probably do)
20:34:56 <atriq> Somethings telling me Belgium
20:35:06 <oerjan> somewhere on earth, close enough. you _did_ read the comic, i assume.
20:35:33 * oerjan slips off to steal the dea^Wpeace moon from darths & droids
20:36:02 <Arc_Koen> no that was a complete coincidence (sponsored by the Heart of Gold spaceship)
20:40:16 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: oh and I forgot to say, I added a super-useful-essential-and-revolutionary stack which is called "dump" and is always empty (everything that is pushed to it is destroyed instead)
20:41:07 <Arc_Koen> I guess it should be called "0" instead, seeing as popping it always gives a 0 but that would require too much modifications on the code for such a useless stack
20:41:51 <fizzie> It could be called "zero". Or "null".
20:42:11 <fizzie> It does sound a bit like /dev/zero.
20:42:54 <oerjan> `run echo hi >/dev/zero; echo success
20:43:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
20:43:42 <atriq> It's not in the topic I have no idea
20:43:49 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
20:43:55 <atriq> Okay, that narrows it down
20:44:01 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
20:44:21 <atriq> That doesn't help at all
20:44:58 <fizzie> "Data written to a null or zero special file is discarded. Reads from the null special file always return end of file (i.e., read(2) returns 0), whereas reads from zero always return bytes containing zero (\0 characters)." I suppose it's arguable which it resembles more.
20:45:00 <oerjan> `? misspellings of croissant
20:45:03 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:45:39 <itidus21> `? reasons to not buy chocolate filled crossaints
20:45:42 <HackEgo> reasons to not buy chocolate filled crossaints? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:46:10 <oerjan> clear proof that none exist
20:46:19 <FreeFull> It looks like a trident with a bit sticking out
20:46:22 <itidus21> im now not sure which is the correct spelling
20:46:47 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
20:46:54 <HackEgo> itidus20's entry has been censored.
20:47:10 <atriq> Are you ever itidus19?
20:47:19 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: what a fantasist interpretation. It's clearly an ear with a bit sticking out
20:47:49 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: What sort of ear looks like that?
20:47:50 <itidus21> in theory i can be itidus22... but i think i didnt actually register it
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20:47:53 <oerjan> `learn itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly
20:49:10 <itidus21> its a carry-over from chat networks where beginning or ending an id in _ is illegal
20:49:35 <itidus21> why that is has never been explained to me
20:50:09 -!- FreeFull has changed nick to _FreeFull.
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20:50:29 <itidus21> as a result, people valued such ids immensely and apparently some have indeed been traded for cash
20:52:04 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
20:52:14 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
20:52:45 <itidus21> random example found in google http://ilegal-id.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/long-undy.html
20:53:00 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
20:53:27 <atriq> `learn Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens.
20:53:34 <itidus21> atriq: sometimes reality is more ridiculous than fiction
20:53:37 <HackEgo> Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens.
20:54:00 <atriq> `learn Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus.
20:54:23 <atriq> Too close together, perhaps
20:55:01 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
20:55:13 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
20:55:27 <atriq> More information about this mysterious "Taneb"
20:55:40 <olsner> atriq: iirc, you are Taneb
20:55:48 <atriq> olsner, who knows?
20:55:58 <atriq> (me, and evidently you)
20:56:00 <itidus21> olsner: that doesn't really help
20:56:01 <oerjan> THIS INFORMATION IS CLASSIFIED
20:56:06 <olsner> atriq: I certainly don't
20:56:14 <atriq> All I know, is soon I must sleep
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20:57:13 <oerjan> In his house at Hexham, atriq waits dreaming.
20:57:19 <itidus21> actually i guess it helps a lot
20:58:01 <itidus21> what could be strange though is reading about someone and not realizing it is you
21:00:22 <olsner> I sometimes have the opposite problem with people with similar names to mine
21:00:49 <fizzie> oerjan: Isn't it "dead atriq waits dreaming"?
21:00:56 <olsner> "Did I write this? I have no memory of that!"
21:02:18 <itidus21> sighs.. and prepares to say something weird
21:03:01 <itidus21> if.. some species, presumably humans, had an organ which was a tictactoe board
21:03:19 <itidus21> due to humans all being different, it would have to differ somehow between individuals
21:03:44 <itidus21> or not so much a tictactoe board but an embodiment of the game of tictactoe
21:04:05 <olsner> some kind of evolution of the toe?
21:04:48 <olsner> maybe tic-tac toes would have mint glands
21:05:57 <itidus21> i guess that its like how almost everyone has 8 fingers, and almost everyone has dna
21:06:45 <itidus21> so .. theres nothing profound to be found in this
21:06:59 <olsner> 8 fingers? I counted 10 at last count
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21:09:20 <itidus21> using analysis.. i think it is impossible to take any physical sample of 2 humans and find them to be identical
21:10:53 <Arc_Koen> are youa llowed to take them from the same human?
21:12:04 <itidus21> this may well generalize to all matter
21:12:53 <Arc_Koen> well, if there are two distincts samples, then Ocaml's == operator would always return false
21:13:12 <Arc_Koen> anyway, I'll follow atriq's neat example
21:15:51 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: about you comment on *brainfuck, I did not mean to say I put it in the brainfuck-equivalent category because it was TC; I meant that 1) it was trivial to translate a brainfuck program into *brainfuck, and 2) the other way around was probably irrelevant seeing as how *brainfuck's additions were not really useful at all
21:16:50 <oerjan> also allowing pointers probably gives it a more than linear speedup to brainfuck in some cases.
21:16:57 <Arc_Koen> well then it probably doesn't belong to that category
21:17:06 <oerjan> similar to having extra tapes in a turing machine
21:18:46 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: i really like your idea about a null stack
21:19:08 <Arc_Koen> itidus: I almost not implemented it because I thought it was not useful at all
21:19:15 <oerjan> <fizzie> oerjan: Isn't it "dead atriq waits dreaming"? <-- i considered it, but the dead atriq is a racehorse.
21:19:38 <Arc_Koen> I mean, you could use any stack as a null stack and just "pretend" it's empty
21:20:06 <itidus21> i suspect theres more to this idea
21:20:19 <Arc_Koen> (though if you actually want to free memory because you're inside a very long (or infinite) loop and don't want leaks...)
21:20:44 <itidus21> but i just cant get my head around it
21:21:35 <Arc_Koen> well I'm gonna read some pages of my book and go to sleep - if you have any idea you want to share, feel free to @tell me or to leave a message on User_talk:Koen
21:21:43 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: In that case you could manually dump it every now and then; 0>z? is pretty elegant-looking.
21:22:14 <Arc_Koen> for some reasons I always forget about the ? command
21:22:46 <Arc_Koen> like, every ten minutes I tell myself "hmm, kipple seriously like a way to destroy information..."
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21:44:46 <zzo38> If you can peek instead of pop, what you can have is, if you peek an empty I/O stack, you get input which is then pushed onto the stack, so if you peek and then trigger then it copies input to output.
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21:59:20 <zzo38> Once I have the dream where I recognized something as myself even though it is not; it is myself in real life but different from the myself in the dream. Actually, involving some memories from one myself remembered by the other myself even though they are actually two distinct people.
21:59:40 <zzo38> And I could tell it is different, too; just that I knew some of their memories.
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22:22:12 <kmc> shachaf: I have been advised to play http://haxathon.com/
22:24:27 <itidus21> if you have some special value 5 whereby, a * 5 = 5, a + 5 = 5, a - 5 = 5, a / 5 = 5, for all values of a, and you had another similar special value 4, then it would seem 4 * 5 = 4 ? 5
22:25:40 <itidus21> or maybe what i am doing is really just writing fallacies
22:26:16 <oerjan> itidus21: well that's more or less how you prove a group has just one identity, a ring just one zero, and similar things
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22:31:50 <kmc> i haven't started yet
22:31:58 <kmc> i have a blog post i should finish up before i fall down any more rabbit holes
22:38:30 <lambdabot> Squarism says: wo utilizing any tricks, i want 20 miljon rabbits to mate with each other once.. how many mate event will there be
22:38:54 <lambdabot> Squarism says: wo utilizing any tricks, i want 20 miljon rabbits to mate with each other once.. how many mate event will there be
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22:41:48 <kmc> today the zero width non-breaking space character came in handy
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23:28:51 <ion> kmc: Interesting.
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