00:00:08 "Distributed as source code in a pre-extracted tar file" 00:00:10 KeithW is using it also for his awesome dynamic bitrate inferential flow control videoconferencing thingy 00:00:14 https://github.com/keithw/alfalfa 00:00:26 i think this may have started as a complete copy of the mosh repo... 00:00:32 but now it's a videoconferencing program 00:00:49 slash an academically relevant demonstration of something that could be turned into a videoconferencing program 00:00:51 The same SSP protocol! 00:01:29 yeah 00:01:34 I hope that's what SSP stands for. 00:01:38 er, with one modification 00:01:50 i forgot which though 00:02:22 supplemental super proteins 00:02:42 'The major modification we made to SSP to support Alfalfa is that in Mosh, “diff” and “patch” are round-trip operations, so the protocol is lossless. In Alfalfa, the “diffs” are lossy and the available length for a diff varies according to Sprout’s forecast window size.' 00:03:07 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:03:24 presumably you then re-apply the lossy diff locally, so that errors don't accumulate 00:03:52 here "diff" = MPEG-2 P-frames 00:04:20 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:04:27 Sanyo’s “SSP” is the most horrible protocol i’ve ever seen. 00:04:38 it uses MPEG-2 not because that's actually a good choice for videoconferencing but because keith had to implement a custom variable bitrate encoder in like three days 00:05:08 basically, it uses bayesian estimation to figure out the maximum bitrate it can send with only a 5% chance of a delay larger than 100ms (i think) 00:06:48 I wish all software did that. 00:07:56 kmc: How're your adventures in JavaScriptland, by the way? 00:07:59 Or wherever it is you are. 00:08:08 pretty good 00:08:13 i am enjoying my job 00:08:18 MakingAUsefulThingland 00:08:24 we have been working on the thing for a month and a half and have made a ton of progress 00:08:34 Is the thing still secret? 00:09:15 yeah 00:17:57 kmc is making a bomb 00:18:02 in javascript 00:18:14 ø̈h nø̈ 00:19:00 ø̈ḧ¨n̈ø̈ 00:19:15 some days I just tell myself "hey let's go to bed now before it gets late" and then before I have successfully gone to bed I tell myself "hey I should take a look at that Emmental language it seemed really interesting" or anything of the like and it overwrites the previous resolution and IT'S 2:30AM ALREADY and today is one of those days 00:19:38 gnight 00:19:42 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: that's dr. turing to you, punk). 00:19:51 I woke up before 08:00 today! 00:19:53 It was crazy. 00:22:14 how'd you manage that? 00:23:00 It just happened. 00:23:30 Normally when I need to wake up early I set several alarm clocks and still have a lowish probability of it doing any good. 00:23:31 cool 00:23:35 how do you feel about this event? 00:23:49 I like waking up early. 00:23:55 When it happens on its own and I'm not tired. 00:29:14 waking up early is awful 00:29:22 there is no good reason for hours less than 12 to exist 00:30:07 -!- monqy has joined. 00:30:11 elliott: 01:00 is a perfectly good time to be awake. 00:30:33 elliott probably believes in Random Standard Time. 00:30:51 monqy: what is shachaf talking about 00:30:59 i don't know 00:31:09 elliott: RST goes from 06:00 to 29:59 00:31:10 thread killed btw 00:31:20 kmc probably knows more about it than I do. 00:31:39 monqy: dammit 00:31:43 shachaf: shut up let me war with monqy in peace 00:32:02 What war are you having? 00:32:08 lambdabot war? 00:32:33 it's a personal war 00:32:49 thread killed btw 00:32:59 shachaf: 06:00 is wrong anyway 00:33:03 since i'm often still up at that time 00:33:11 08:00 would be a reasonable roll-over probably 00:33:26 how does this command even work again 00:33:31 oh like that 00:33:36 @admin - elliott 00:33:38 @ignore + elliott 00:33:45 i guess monqy wins :'( 00:36:15 Oh, Phantom__Hoover elliott monqy et all, recent update if you didn't see it 00:36:26 *et al 00:36:37 hi 00:36:39 hi elliott 00:37:28 sghello 00:37:36 creative liberties, artistic license 00:37:47 monqy: i didn't know you coded perl 00:38:13 i used to know some perl but then i forgot it 00:38:22 i think i';ve only written one perl thing in my entire life 00:38:34 iused to forgot all perl but thenr i learned it :"( 00:38:48 monqy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_License 00:39:27 hi Sgeo 00:39:56 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:39:58 never heard of it! 00:40:03 plenty about the other artistic license though 00:40:05 my favourite license 00:40:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:41:00 * Sgeo forgets whether there's a way for non-admins to privately message lambdabot to get it to say something in channel 00:41:22 There's obviously someone in here who can do it, shachaf I think? 00:41:29 no 00:41:58 lambdabot is lying. It's me. 00:42:27 shachaf vs shachaf, FIGHT! 00:43:09 "Whether or not the original Artistic License is a free software license is largely unsettled. It was criticized by the Free Software Foundation as being "too vague; some passages are too clever for their own good, and their meaning is not clear."" 00:43:10 shachaf is lying 00:43:28 elliott: stop @admin-ing me :'( 00:43:31 Too clever for their own good? Like some Perl code? 00:43:47 Like all Haskell code? 00:46:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:47:39 -!- sivoais has joined. 01:07:04 shachaf: Not all haskell code is clever =P 01:07:17 See: All Haskell code I've ever written 01:07:46 Not all things FreeFull says are clever. 01:08:07 shachaf: I say none of them are 01:15:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:26:41 -!- glogbackup has joined. 01:26:41 -!- slbkbs has joined. 01:26:41 -!- slbkbs has quit (Changing host). 01:26:41 -!- slbkbs has joined. 01:26:49 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:26:52 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:27:03 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:28:05 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:28:42 -!- HackEgo has joined. 01:30:22 -!- slbkbs has quit (Quit: adieu). 01:33:57 -!- TeruFSX_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:34:46 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:36:53 Common Lisp:Clojure::Tcl:??? 01:36:59 * Sgeo wants the ??? language 01:37:22 hi 01:38:36 Sgeo: ???=Clojure 01:39:10 Clojure has CL-style macros, when I think I really like Tcl-style I-don't-know-what-to-call-it 01:39:40 fexprs? Except, if Kernel is said to have fexprs, it's not quite it 01:40:27 Tcl: a Tcl-expr lisp. 01:40:27 :P 01:41:09 something about strings 01:42:42 I didn't say I like the string aspect 01:43:06 But the idea of being able to dynamically generate the code that a control structure will see 01:43:56 Although admittedly it hurts compilability and any code-walking ability 01:44:24 does it do anything good 01:44:40 it'd be pretty sad if something so crazy was entirely useless and just a huge mess for losers!!! 01:46:16 It comes to mind whenever I see someone complain about how some macro they want to use won't accept a variable containing a symbol or a vector in place of where the macro usually accepts a symbol or vector 01:51:41 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:53:04 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:57:33 Wait, why exactly am I chatting on the W:A chat as though anyone actually chats? 01:58:01 http://snooper.worms2d.info/ 01:59:29 why are you asking #esoteric, Sgeo 01:59:45 elliott: Twist: #esoteric is W:A caht. 02:08:55 `pastelogs omee 02:09:23 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17397 02:20:55 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:49:01 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:08:00 I wonder if I should attempt to implement ALPACA in Clojure 03:12:03 alpaca meat is fairly tasty 03:12:45 whatever it is, it's better than nothing, unless it isn't 03:26:38 Why does catseye keep 404ing on me? 03:26:43 http://catseye.tc/projects/alpaca/doc/alpaca.html 03:26:56 The Game of Life link and the WireWorld link both 404 on me 03:27:11 Almost complained that ALPACA cheats, but that's REDGREEN not ALPACA cheating 03:27:25 good catch 03:27:50 do you think you have a chance at winning the: catch of the year award???? I think you do 03:28:12 you'll have to compete with the fishers but all they catch are fish 03:30:37 monqy: sometimes they catch other things by accident 03:30:42 I should do it in ClojureScript, not Clojure 03:30:59 Although I kind of hate ClojureScript. A "lisp" with macros in a different language and no eval. 03:31:06 do it in "clozure" 03:31:15 monqy: is the joke clozure common lisp 03:31:18 yes 03:31:23 great joke 03:31:51 can i have a joke monqy 03:32:07 no i'm fresh out 03:32:13 that was my final joke 03:32:15 the last one 03:32:22 sinister 03:32:26 what's the point of living if you don't have jokes to tell. 03:32:27 how about just a pub 03:32:30 or a pun 03:32:37 i meant a pun but a pub would also do 03:33:34 Is APALCA's only full documentation the Perl implementation? 03:34:34 apalca 03:34:47 *ALPACA 03:35:59 Oh, REDGREEN's source probably serves as documentation 03:36:30 o.O cpressey writes useful code? 03:42:03 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:42:15 -!- TodPunk has joined. 03:42:23 Can REDGREEN fish interact with the rest of the REDGREEN world? 03:42:46 e.g. the GoL simulation interacting with WireWorld 03:44:19 kmc: newtype Rec a = InR { outR :: Rec a -> a } is just Curry's paradox. 03:44:30 elliott: Nifty, eh? 03:48:09 shachaf: curry's paradox doesn't work because you have to mix logic with common sense to get the best results 03:48:11 a wise man once told me this 03:50:26 Those are the ingredients of a delicious curry. 03:55:31 -!- mig22 has joined. 03:57:03 -!- kinoSi0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:57:31 -!- kinoSi has joined. 04:06:27 DuctTape is flammable. 04:07:05 i'll keep that in mind 04:07:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:12:40 let's train a new generation of programmers capable only of thinking functionally, leaving us with the high-paying procedural maintenance 04:16:46 hi 04:19:56 -!- FireFly has joined. 04:26:02 Oh, so Himera needs a server. 04:26:16 (Himera is a web-based REPL for ClojureScript) 04:27:15 Yes, this bothers me. 04:27:31 thanks for letting us all know, Sgeo 04:38:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:38:54 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:45:22 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:07:21 Steam is Steamy. Good to know. 05:32:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:32:14 -!- evincar has joined. 05:32:44 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:36:03 Sgeo: ivan is alive? 05:36:34 shachaf, this is surprising to you? 05:37:38 Shouldn't it be? 05:45:41 -!- ogrom has joined. 05:49:11 -!- evincar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:53:41 -!- evincar has joined. 06:03:27 now running memtest86+ v4.20 06:03:34 test memory everyday 06:06:02 -!- evincar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:08:25 -!- evincar has joined. 06:47:44 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 06:52:50 achievement unlocked: mounted boot drive using only duct tape 06:54:24 * Sgeo keeps looking at redgreen.alp 06:54:48 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:55:58 shachaf: that is roughly all i know about random standard time 06:56:18 What is? 06:56:26 what you said 06:56:29 Ah. 06:56:45 it goes from 06h to 29h, with the numbers under 24 lining up with normal time 06:57:04 actually I think in some real world contexts both 00h and 24h are used 06:57:09 to denote beginning or end of day resp. 07:30:27 -!- carado has joined. 07:46:18 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:31 Why is my college so full of idiots 07:59:58 Apparently, a bunch of students ignored a fire drill, then ignored a seminar that they were required to attend because they didn't participate in the fire drill. 08:00:03 They are now expelled from the dorms. 08:00:56 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:20:44 Oh hey, I think I found a mistake in cpressey's REDGREEN implementation 08:21:44 Fish in water are supposed to follow GoL rules. But one fish surrounded by 8 fish will turn into air (not a GoL cell state) rather than water (GoL dead) 08:22:12 Unless the precedence of the state transitions is opposite of what I think it is 08:30:55 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 08:33:55 No, I think I'm right and cpressey is wrong. 08:36:57 I do think it's first-matching, too. 08:37:23 Though you could just try it out. 08:38:05 what are we talking about 08:38:21 Arc_Koen: REDGREEN's ALPACA spe 08:38:27 Curse my fingers. 08:38:41 I was going to make that "Arc_Koen: Fish.", to be more mysterious. 08:38:46 fizzie, looking at the generated Perl also suggests it's first-matching 08:38:46 Now I spoiled the whole thing. 08:39:38 I just looked at the Perl generating the Perl, but it did, too. 08:39:54 fizzie: according to the logs the discussion about alpaca and redgreen started four hours ago 08:40:33 wait that's actually what you were talking about ? 08:40:56 Yes. 08:41:26 The Perl generating the Perl gives me a headache of confusion 08:49:37 -!- fungot has joined. 08:57:46 Does fungot speak REDGREEN? 08:57:46 Sgeo: and the same buttons to page up and page down in aterm. oh, you are just making a bad optimization for fun 08:58:00 bad optimizations for fun! 09:04:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:11:32 -!- lambdabot has joined. 09:12:12 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:24:57 -!- Jafet has joined. 09:25:57 -!- nooga has joined. 09:31:43 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG 09:31:58 I think I accidentally erased the brainfuck interpreter I had written in thue 09:32:37 To the backups! 09:34:20 oh my god prison architect's in open alpha!!!!! 09:36:43 FreeFull: fortunately I pasted it to sprunge.us and copied the link here and it's in the logs 09:39:58 oh, it turns out § is not ascii 09:40:43 Why did you think it was? 09:41:12 I didn't think that was the problem 09:41:45 but it kinda screwed the file 09:41:59 replaced § with ¬ß (which is not ascii either, that's weird) 09:56:33 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 09:56:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:22:09 let's not screw files, shall we? 10:28:47 Seven bits is not enough for miracles. At least ASCII has both upper- and lowercase. 10:35:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:35:55 Hello 10:43:01 you need only 6 bits for A-Za-z0-9, who needs the rest 10:57:42 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 10:59:47 Sometimes a bit of punctuation is good too. 11:08:25 get access to GAME BREAKING BUGS 11:12:18 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 11:20:05 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:20:24 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:20:48 -!- sivoais has joined. 11:32:10 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:32:53 -!- sivoais has joined. 12:06:48 -!- itidus21 has joined. 12:10:24 this may seem odd but 12:10:51 * Topic for #esoteric is: BEWARE THE O/RJANIST MO/O/SE | 12:11:02 I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | 12:11:11 E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E156 12:11:19 5E03EBF2 | ZARDOZ created ZARDOZ; all else is the work of 12:11:30 ZARDOZ | New channel logs: http://5z8.info/hookers_j0l4yf_nak 12:11:42 edgrandmas.jpg | Old-style channel logs: http://codu.org/logs/_es 12:11:51 oteric/ 12:12:01 * Topic for #esoteric set by zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.c 12:12:06 itidus21: it is looking more odd the further you go 12:12:15 a at Sat Oct 13 04:37:01 2012 12:12:38 the arbitrary line breaks are new information 12:13:32 oh, zzo probably put weird ascii in there 12:13:44 hmm 12:13:58 uh.. thats just the linebreaks based on the width of my xchat window 12:14:03 I was implementing the . instruction in my brainfuck interpreter in thue 12:14:08 Look at Dave. He's like "Okay. You can do this. DON'T hit the cymbals as hard as you fucking can!" 12:14:12 itidus21: so what is the odd thing? 12:14:44 the odd thing was me re-posting the topic with the linebreaks based on the width of my xchat window 12:14:50 -!- itidus21 has left ("Leaving"). 12:15:00 so I though "I'd do characters 32-126 manually, and characters above 128 can be detected easily since they have a 1 as their most significant digit 12:15:12 so I do all characters 32-126 manually 12:15:14 and then 12:15:36 I realize I did all that with the . marker right to the number 12:15:46 and the most significant digit is left to the number 12:16:13 (so i can't detect it) 12:16:39 hmm, so the oddest part about that whole thing was that nothing was odd in the first place 12:16:40 does that mean I have to do it all over again? 12:16:41 ... except itidus, I guess he's a bit odd 12:17:57 @tell itidus21 about that null stack you were so impressed about: I thought maybe a copy stack that would do exactly the opposite: instead of destroying everything that's pushed onto it (and being always empty) it keeps copy of everything that's popped from it (and is never empty) 12:17:58 Consider it noted. 12:19:19 ok one cheap way to cover my mistake without redoing everything manually is to consider ascii characters mod 128 12:19:45 that is, characters 128-255 would be equivalent to characters 0-127 12:20:17 or I could just say I don't care and trying to output a character outside the range 0-127 causes the program to halt 12:20:25 yeah that should be good enough 12:20:51 -!- spamdribble has joined. 12:21:44 -!- spamdribble has left. 12:26:03 -!- Frooxius has joined. 12:32:36 wouuuuuuuuh works with the Hello World program from the esolangs.org brainfuck page! 12:34:14 Arc_Koen: congratulations 12:34:37 I think I'm gonna send an email to the guy who wrote the thue interpreter I'm using 12:35:27 it allows to run the thue program step by step or at any speed and to see the current state of the program and that's a very valuable debugging tool 12:45:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:45:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:01:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:03:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:08:24 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:28:33 Absolutely No Words http://youtu.be/pquYAEfbBFM 13:37:27 that's slightly disturbing 13:40:24 -!- iconmaster has joined. 13:46:01 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:21:06 -!- Jafet has joined. 14:24:54 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:32:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:42:02 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 14:42:14 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:46:31 -!- iconmaster has joined. 15:05:16 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 15:06:16 hi 15:06:34 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:07:57 -!- iconmaster has joined. 15:12:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 15:19:05 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:20:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 15:23:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:26:49 -!- mig22 has quit (Quit: mig22). 15:29:29 -!- nooga has joined. 15:42:45 -!- elliott has joined. 16:12:06 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:13:20 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:15:03 -!- iconmaster has joined. 16:34:44 hello 16:38:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:38:44 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:43:52 -!- iconmaster has joined. 16:47:31 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:56:23 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:02:02 What the hell? 17:02:15 Facebook just told me that somebody I don't know accepted /my/ friend request. 17:05:39 :-D Someone had made a friend request to me ages ago, but i didn’t recognize the name immediately and didn’t get around to looking up who he was until today. It turns out it was you and i accepted. 17:07:04 Dafaq, why would I friend you, I hate you. I MEAN, NOTHING. 17:07:26 More tot he point, I don't remember ever doing this, or for that matter, ever friending anyone from #esoteric other than pikhq >_> 17:07:39 ion = pikhq 17:07:50 Nope. 17:08:46 Hmm, now I know what ion looks like. Just like I imagined, really. 17:08:55 Gregor: Only me? Hah. 17:09:23 I don't have “friends”, I only have “acquaintances I tolerate”. 17:09:29 :P 17:09:42 Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 17:36:14 -0700 Subject: Gregor Richards haluaa olla kaverisi Facebookissa. 17:10:06 haluaa olla kaferisi Facebookissa 17:10:21 June? May as well be 1960. 17:10:47 haruā orra kaferishi fēsubūkkissa 17:11:29 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:11:35 -!- iconmaster has joined. 17:12:39 -!- ogrom has joined. 17:14:04 pikhq: Hey, if I break my system, fix it. 17:14:15 I have no idea what I'm doing, so I probabiy will break it. 17:14:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:14:38 Computers love coffee. 17:14:45 You should pour a whole pot on it. 17:15:29 pikhq: Weeeell, I'm removing my separate ext2 /boot partition and merging it into my JFS / at the same time as switching from MBR to GPT. 17:15:43 To make room for a 2 MiB partition GRUB2 apparently needs on GPT systems. 17:15:54 So I'm fairly certain my system is going to stop booting in a few minutes. 17:16:14 that does sound like something almost guaranteed to break your system 17:16:22 You *might* want to make a boot disk of some sort. 17:16:41 * FreeFull wonders what's up with people trying out GPT 17:16:46 pikhq: I think I have a USB drive with an Arch thing on it. 17:16:59 So probably I can just boot from that if it goes wrong. 17:17:03 No idea where it *is*, mind you. 17:18:05 FreeFull: I switched to GPT when my 3TB HD forced me to ;) 17:18:19 OK; writing new GUID partition table (GPT) to /dev/sda. 17:18:19 Warning: The kernel is still using the old partition table. 17:18:19 The new table will be used at the next reboot. 17:18:19 The operation has completed successfully. 17:18:25 Hey does anyone know how I can force the kernel to reload the partition table? 17:18:28 FreeFull: MBR is almost tolerable if you've got a small enough HD. 17:18:30 It's, uh, currently looking at my MBR table. 17:18:34 Gregor: How did it force you to? 17:18:35 FreeFull: And besides, this is new interestingness. 17:18:41 But the problem is I want GRUB to see the partition I just made or something. 17:18:45 FreeFull: mbr is limited to 2 tb 17:18:48 -!- micrypt has joined. 17:18:49 elliott: Erm. I dunno. 17:19:09 `WELCOME micrypt 17:19:09 -!- brownies has joined. 17:19:20 MICRYPT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 17:19:24 elliott: Can't you just have the boot partition setup 17:19:26 `WeLcOmE brownies 17:19:30 BrOwNiEs: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 17:19:44 hello 17:19:48 Heh. Hi there, folks. 17:20:15 FreeFull: That doesn't help you if you cannot *represent partitions for the whole drive*. 17:20:21 Like what was done in the olden days when the BIOSes didn't support booting partitions larger than 528MB 17:20:23 micrypt: They don't actually ever talk about esolangs in here. 17:20:31 Oh nice, apparently tar doesn't save symlinks. 17:20:33 pikhq: I see 17:20:35 Or something. 17:20:37 No wait, it does. 17:21:16 elliott: There's other file types tar doesn't preserve, though. 17:21:47 Okay, let's reboot. 17:21:53 Does tar preserve fifos? 17:21:54 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:22:27 Legacy tar only handles normal files, hard links, and soft links. Sane tar also preserves character specials, block specials, directories, and FIFOs.' 17:23:20 -!- elliott has joined. 17:23:26 It... booted perfectly. 17:23:28 I'm baffled. 17:23:33 You'll note it still doesn't handle named sockets. 17:23:36 elliott: Awesome. 17:23:45 elliott: Then BAM 17:23:55 It's not meant to be possible to fiddle about with that many things related to your boot process in one go and still have it work first try. 17:24:03 Maybe I messed up the conversion and it's still MBR??? 17:24:35 Okay, nope, gdisk says it's GPT. 17:24:58 I bet dmesg says what the kernel thinks it is. 17:25:02 you can have both GPT and MBR at the same time 17:25:11 olsner: Yeah, but gdisk says I just have the protective MBR thing. 17:25:29 pikhq: dmesg | grep -i gpt gives nothing. 17:25:36 olsner: Linux doesn't like that though 17:25:44 But the same applies to | grep -i mbr. 17:25:46 FreeBSD does but who uses FreeBSD? =P 17:25:47 I remember trying to set MBR back up after accidentally the GPT 17:26:28 FreeFull: Huh? Linux manages it fine, I thought. 17:26:58 FreeBSD does it a bit better than Linux, but Linux doesn't *utterly break* on hybrid MBR configs. 17:27:16 Linux only uses MBR or GPT, not both. 17:27:35 Sort of upset that I didn't get any fancy breakage. 17:28:05 Maybe I should enable [testing] for more fun. 17:28:06 Actually, from what I gather, the easiest way to check would be to see if /boot is a separate filesystem. 17:28:13 :) 17:28:28 yeah, partitioning and boot loader setup is so boring when it just works 17:28:43 pikhq: Yeah, there's no /boot mounted, it's definitely GPT... 17:28:53 how bad is it to use an SSD with the wrong sector size? 17:29:17 olsner: I think it's just slightly slower. 17:29:34 Oh hey, the ghc package got updated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 17:29:39 Time to blow away /opt/ghc and break everything. 17:29:41 elliott: It will show the GPT partitions, or the MBR partitions, but not both at the same time 17:29:47 elliott: 7.2 finally? 17:29:55 For the drive 17:30:12 And which ones it shows depends on if you booted it from GPT or MBR 17:31:44 shachaf: 7.6.1. 17:33:02 Eurgh, the package only provides Cabal 1.16.0. 17:33:07 So I guess upgrading probably won't work. 17:33:20 FreeFull: That seems OK though, since in hybrid configurations you keep the two tables synchronised. 17:33:56 At least, to the extent possible. 17:34:22 (presumably if you're using a gigantic HD in a dual boot config, you don't try to keep track of your partition that goes over the 2TB boundary) 17:35:42 * elliott is just going to not install Windows until using a UEFI system. 17:36:05 Probably the best option. 17:37:10 Not like the things I'd want a Windows partition for are viable on this machine, anyway... mostly games and this system is sort of crappy. 17:42:01 -!- brownies has left. 17:45:44 -!- micrypt has left. 18:06:51 * pikhq blinks 18:07:02 It is, uh. Technically possible to use EFI with MBR. 18:07:13 that sounds unwise 18:07:24 Your MBR partition scheme just needs to have an EFI system partition and it "just works". 18:08:09 About the only benefit I can see here is if you wanted to image a giant bunch of disks with the same OS install and have it work identically on BIOS and EFI. 18:08:33 And, hypothetically speaking, it's an OS that doesn't boot from GPT on BIOS. 18:15:34 hypothetically 18:17:03 *cough*fuckyouwindows*cough* 18:17:43 -!- micrypt has joined. 18:26:08 `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ micrypt 18:26:12 ​ＭＩＣＲＹＰＴ：　ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ　ＴＯ　ＴＨＥ　ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ　ＨＵＢ　ＦＯＲ　ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ　ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ　ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ　ＤＥＳＩＧＮ　ＡＮＤ　ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！　ＦＯＲ　ＭＯＲＥ　ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ，　ＣＨＥＣＫ　ＯＵＴ　ＯＵＲ　ＷＩＫＩ：　ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧ 18:27:42 God, zenkaku Roman. 18:28:32 Hmm, I wish I could get rid of all these 32-bit libraries. 18:28:45 I guess Dwarf Fortress is still 32-bit only, though. 18:28:49 Have you considering replacing all with musl? 18:29:07 Speaking of, I really need to help finish glibc ABI compat on musl one of these days. 18:29:14 ｅｎｊｏｙ！ｚｅｎｋａｋｕ 18:29:29 Bah 18:29:30 pikhq: I don't see how musl helps. 18:29:41 elliott: It doesn't directly. 18:29:47 But it makes me happier. 18:29:55 That's like helping. 18:30:15 I sort of doubt musl's binary compatibility is good enough to use all of Arch's glibc-based binary packages with it. 18:30:28 Hence why I need to finish it. 18:30:45 Fair enough. 18:30:47 As far as I'm aware, the single largest gaping hole is the lack of the _FORTIFY_SOURCE functions. 18:31:15 What about those warnings you get about needing dynamically-loaded stuff if you statically link with glibc? Does musl have to do anything to support that kind of stuff? 18:31:24 Not that the packages are statically-linked, but you know what I mean. 18:31:37 What those are is functions in glibc that call dlopen... 18:31:40 In musl, they don't. 18:33:27 Of course, static linked glibc stuff won't work without those... 18:33:36 Betcha they could be stubbed without much trouble though. 18:34:05 ais523: kick shachaf 18:34:09 (mind, nobody, and I mean nobody, *actually static links against glibc*. It makes GHC's runtime look minimal.) 18:35:12 675k for "int main(){}" is a bit much. 18:35:15 I statically link against glibc sometimes. 18:35:45 That's 675k needed for glibc's *startup routines*. 18:36:14 And that's just the text segment. 18:36:43 The equivalent in musl is 1.5k for my current checkout. 18:36:46 11:35 Zeno knew how to halve his cake and eat it too. 18:38:10 Went down a couple bytes when I did a git pull... 18:38:25 I got 883kB for an empty main with whatever libc ubuntu has 18:38:42 854 with -Wl,--gc-sections 18:39:03 650 B for a dynamic linked program. 18:40:14 olsner: I'm arbitrarily just measuring the text segment. 18:40:22 oh, ok 18:40:58 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:41:16 If you only look at the binary size proper, static linked musl is the smallest. 18:41:41 there's no real reason that program should have anything more than an exit syscall in its text segment 18:41:58 olsner: Well, you still need the startup code. 18:42:22 How it works is _start runs, it sets things up for main, and only *then* does an exit syscall. 18:42:31 It's slightly more work than just _exit. 18:42:39 Still shouldn't be *that* much. 18:42:52 yes, but even that is not necessary for this program 18:43:04 The linker can't magically know that main is a no-op. 18:43:56 All it knows is it needs the startup code and the program's objects to be glued together into a single binary. 18:44:10 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:44:13 sure it can, but it's somewhat reasonable that the linker doesn't have that magic built in 18:45:03 s/somewhat/perfectly/ 18:46:04 The linker is getting handed headered machine code. You need a disassembler and some sort of assembly logic analyzer to determine what main is doing, and if any bit of the startup code is necessary. 18:46:20 That is to say, you'd basically be shoving compiler infrastructure into the linker. 18:47:25 link-time optimisation 18:47:34 Does not quite work like this, actually. 18:48:11 Here's the linker's knowledge of LTO: it's passed a .so that should be loaded, and should have objects filtered through it. 18:48:23 And, also, that .so isn't even looking at the machine code blob in the objects. 18:48:39 It's looking at compiler IR that was shoved in the object files. 18:49:20 i was joking mostly 18:49:21 It's more-or-less just deferring optimization passes and code generation until all the translation units are available at once. 18:49:28 i don't see much wrong with putting compiler logic in the linker, though 18:49:34 if anything i'd rather there be less compiler logic in the compiler 18:56:55 I wonder if Rust binaries are standalone enough to work as PID 1. 19:02:36 `W test 19:02:39 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: W: not found 19:05:08 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:07:53 pikhq: Is poppler or mupdf better these days? 19:10:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: New tmux). 19:10:28 mupdf: The muppet defragmenter. 19:15:31 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:19:17 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f648/index.htm 19:19:23 Uh. The image they give seems to be wrong 19:21:41 it's almost like the font they use doesn't have perfect unicode 6 coverage 19:24:45 preflex: seen kmc 19:25:06 Aww, according to Wikipedia, Mayan symbols are not yet in Unicod 19:25:09 Unicode 19:25:26 Unicod. Universal fishing. 19:26:40 Gregor, I don't count as being from #esoteric ? Or did I friend you? 19:26:56 Also, I should figure out how to contact cpressey 19:27:23 It's literally impossible to contact Chris. 19:27:27 He does not exist. 19:28:06 Sgeo: There is, however, a tentative allocation for Maya hieroglyphs in the SMP roadmap: http://www.unicode.org/roadmaps/smp/ 19:28:09 I don't see an email address on his about page 19:29:08 Sgeo: I think it went something like so that you write "cpressey" in blood on a mirror at midnight, and then... something. Some chanting was involved. 19:29:49 Oh right, write it three times. Don't remember the other details. 19:32:05 "And, because OpenZz thinks you are the input to a compiler, accumulating 10 of these errors will actually cause OpenZz to quit!" 19:32:19 So you can have 9 syntax errors and OpenZz will not quit? 19:32:25 That seems bizarre 19:33:19 I seem to recall some other compiler having a "more than K errors, giving up" rule too. 19:33:52 Though I don't know what "quit" means in that context. 19:34:31 I would've assumed "stops trying to make sense out of the file", as opposed to trying to report all errors. 19:34:38 http://catseye.tc/projects/zzrk/README.markdown.html 19:36:03 Well, it sounds a bit like that, then. 19:37:04 Like doing -fmax-error=10 to gcc. 19:37:17 -fmax-errors=10, I mean. 19:37:57 But surely an error is something that should make the compiler quit immediately? 19:38:49 I don't know how often he comes in here, so don't know how long a @tell would take 19:42:59 -!- nooga has joined. 19:43:22 Sgeo: I think most compilers actually would instead read the whole file and try to report all errors at once, instead of quitting at the first, and that's what people actually want. 19:43:32 Yes, gcc doesn't give up at the first error or anything. 19:43:33 Ah, good point 19:43:42 There's the whole field of error recovery in parsing to make that possible. 19:45:20 But there was some tool with a finite default to '-fmax-errors'-like behaviour, I just can't remember which it was. The error message was mostly neutral, but there was a slight hint of disparaging the programmer. 19:45:39 The limit was something like 500 or 1000 errors, after all. 19:47:23 GCC just says "compilation terminated due to -fmax-errors=2." which is kind of boring. 19:47:26 disparaging the programmer made me think INTERCAL, but I'm sure it would have a lower limit 19:49:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:49:17 No, this was some "serious" tool. 19:49:51 Oh, I'm probably just thinking of Valgrind's "go fix your program" message. 19:50:17 ==21573== More than 10000000 total errors detected. I'm not reporting any more. 19:50:20 ==21573== Final error counts will be inaccurate. Go fix your program! 19:50:30 That thing. It doesn't even quit. 19:50:37 ais523: kick shachaf 19:50:59 Or at least mingling that message and the as-yet unidentified compiler. 19:51:45 Valgrind's "go fix your program" is quite confusing 19:51:56 given that 10 million errors can happen very quickly, and often stem from the same cause 19:52:05 btw, I just received spam saying I'd been successfully unsubscribed 19:52:08 not sure from what 19:52:13 "This seems difficult at least, and not really necessary if we're willing to forego writing "Hunt the Wumpus" in Burro" 19:52:15 my guess is it's angling for replies asking wtf is going on 19:52:23 which would confirm the address as genuine 19:52:31 Aww, I wanted to write Hunt the Wumpus in Burro 19:52:36 (note: not really) 19:52:37 also, which one's Burro? 19:52:45 I'm sort-of losing track of all the esolangs we have nowadays 19:52:58 Brainfuck-like where every program has an antiprogram that when concatenated to the program results in a no-op 19:53:12 http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/burro-1.0.html 19:53:29 right, that one 19:53:35 thought it might be 19:53:47 I remember talking to cpressey about it, because there was a mistake in it 19:54:31 JScript .NET has a syntax error "JS1197: Too many errors", but I'm sure I haven't used that. 19:55:28 ais523, how do I contact cpressey, there's a mistake in his REDGREEN implementation, I think 19:56:02 Oh, and Apple MPW C has "Too many errors on one line (make fewer)". 19:57:40 ≡ ≡ <> 19:57:52 That line should NOT have confused me as much as it did, even if it was only for seconds 19:58:17 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:58:44 -!- kinoSi has joined. 20:01:19 ais523, Burro question: Is it mandatory to have a / inside (), or can you have (e) and no / in there 20:02:01 I think you'd need a / or a \ because otherwise it wouldn't make sense 20:02:02 but I'm not sure 20:02:24 fizzie: I'm pretty sure I've used compilers that stop at a configurable number of errors, with "error: too many errors" 20:02:42 I think it's because they have bad error recovery and errors after the first few don't actually make sense anyway 20:02:47 or else that they fear a lot of duplicates 20:03:17 ais523: So am I, but I can't remember which ones they were. (GCC has an option for it too, but it is off by default.) 20:04:08 hmm, Borland C++ 4, perhaps 20:04:13 the compiler I grew up with 20:04:23 ais523, is there a way to contact cpressey? 20:05:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:07:14 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:08:28 Sgeo: I think he has an email address 20:08:48 * Sgeo is having trouble finding it 20:09:05 does the email link on his userpage work? 20:09:12 actually, probably not, given how often catseye moves 20:10:01 Oh hey REDGREEN is on Github 20:10:06 I could just do something there 20:10:15 Also on bitbucket. 20:10:27 They seemed to have identical commits. 20:10:47 It smells like some kind of an automatic thing to have both. 20:11:29 it's a VCS, right? 20:11:32 you can commit to multiple repos 20:11:39 *DVCS 20:11:45 the fact that they're different DVCSes shouldn't matter 20:12:32 Do I just gratuitously add myself to the comment at the top of the file in my fork, or just make the change? 20:13:18 ais523: Oh, Bitbucket also supports Git? I thought they only did Mercurial. 20:14:20 In which case there would have needed to be some kind of a thing, or a person doing all commits twice with the same messages and so on. 20:15:37 By "thing" I mean something like that hg-git that people use. 20:16:53 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 20:17:09 "Sgeo opened this pull request in a few seconds 20:17:09 " 20:17:15 You know, I should probably test it... 20:17:57 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:18:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:18:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:19:45 "Madison, a Term-Rewriting Proof-Checker" 20:19:56 Misread that as time-travelling proof-checker 20:20:27 "let's travel back in time to check if fermat really had a proof" 20:20:49 (that's probably gonna be very disappointing) 20:21:46 -!- atriq has joined. 20:23:24 fungot needs to be rewritten in Flobnar 20:23:25 Sgeo: you'll be doing summer homework. *then* i can come up with a good solution 20:23:55 That'd be fun 20:25:36 Hmm. So Flobnar is more functional than Befunge? 20:25:51 I'm trying to understand the distinction between a moving IP and "evaluate what's over there" 20:27:28 Yeah 20:28:07 "Evaluate what's over there" has a sort-of intrinsic "move back and do the next thing afterwards" 20:28:31 The arithmatic stuff helps me understand 20:28:58 What's Flobnar like? 20:29:06 Esoteric 20:29:20 Befunge but drunk 20:29:35 Sort-of Lisp-y 20:29:54 There is currently no text in this page. :/ 20:30:10 - This frequent relocation of our web address was done specifically to 20:30:11 47 20:30:11 - please [[Phantom Hoover]]. 20:30:21 "(And it's not implemented yet, but never mind that.)" 20:30:31 Phantom_Hoover: http://catseye.tc/node/Phantom%20Hoover.html 20:30:33 yr famous 20:31:29 whoa man 20:32:05 Blah, I think the introspection and self-modification should perhaps use relative coordinates 20:32:28 more famous than u 20:33:15 -!- jiella has joined. 20:33:22 And so mysterious! 20:33:37 never did i think i would rub shoulders with douglas hofstadter 20:33:50 i wonder if he'll lend me some of his harem of beautiful french women now 20:34:16 Maybe I should have opened an issue than just issue a pull request 20:34:21 Harems are overrated 20:34:22 *rather than 20:34:36 atriq, yeah, sure 20:34:40 not jealous at all 20:35:46 What is Befunge-93's : 20:36:12 Duplicate, I think 20:36:58 One of my friends hates me in her sleep 20:37:09 Dup, yes. 20:37:16 See, it has two dots. 20:37:17 kind of her to abstain from hating you when awake 20:37:23 more than most of us can manage 20:37:25 Yes, indeed 20:37:29 (At least that's always been my personal logic for it.) 20:38:46 I'm kind of bored right now 20:39:07 see, if you had a harem of beautiful french women you wouldn't be bored 20:39:12 !befunge "!olleh">:#,_@ 20:39:13 hello! 20:39:42 Phantom_Hoover, you're forgetting two things 20:39:49 I'm an asexual 20:39:54 And I don't speak French 20:40:13 uh you can be french and speak english 20:40:16 Beyond "Ou est le W/C? Je voudrais une baguette!" 20:40:18 also you can have asexual harems! 20:40:49 harem -haref / 20:41:17 harem haref? 20:42:10 :$@ 20:42:12 Is that 0? 20:42:19 hmm, I think I need new glasses 20:42:29 I think that would make sense, but not sur 20:42:31 e 20:42:43 Yes. Well,it has a 0 on stack at @. 20:43:44 But $ pops the stack 20:43:56 Yes, but only one of the 0s pushed by :. 20:44:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:44:09 Should the stack be considered to have an infinite number of 0s? 20:44:52 If you like. Poppig an empty stack yields 0. 20:45:38 The spec (at least 93) isn't explicit about ':' on empty, but pushing two 0s is I believe most common. 20:45:39 The example cat program 20:45:42 Phantom__Hoover, you've cloned yourself! 20:45:52 Wouldn't that .. n/m 20:46:48 98 seems to be explicit about :. 20:47:04 "pops a cell off the stack, then pushes it back onto the stack twice, duplicating it". 20:47:06 * Sgeo was talking Flobnar 20:47:10 Oh. 20:47:20 Well, I haven't seen Flobnar. 20:47:27 http://catseye.tc/projects/flobnar/doc/Flobnar.falderal.html 20:47:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:50:08 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:52:08 -!- atriq has joined. 20:52:37 atriq, it's so i can deal with all these french haremites 20:52:39 Ooh, that division by zero is funky. 20:52:58 "Enter Velo, a vaguely Ruby-inspired scripting language which unifies strings with code blocks, and scripts with object classes." 20:53:03 TCL??? 20:54:48 Well, partly like Tcl 20:55:17 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:56:46 -!- sivoais has joined. 21:21:47 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:44:17 I don't get it 21:50:16 Help I'm answering things on Stack Overflow badly 21:51:28 Hey, I've got the Tumbleweed badge on Ask Ubuntu 21:51:34 the worst of crimes 21:51:46 And I still have this problem 21:53:09 i've spent my evening eating beef and drinking portuguese wine 21:53:17 nooga, in Tcl, Everything Is A String 21:53:26 Sgeo: awful 21:54:07 nooga: This includes code. 21:54:25 In Windows Powershell Strings Are Not Actually Strings 21:54:36 what's windows powershell? 21:54:56 Thingy included with Windows 7 21:55:05 Supposed to replace CMD.EXE or whatever 21:55:09 oh 21:55:53 microsoft finally noticed that unixy OSes had a serious command line shell for, llike, 40 years? 21:56:08 and tried to copy the idea? 21:56:28 that and more and wrong, I think 21:56:34 Tried to copy the idea and wrote it thinking that attaching hidden information to EVERYTHING was a brilliant idea 21:56:43 but I've never used powershell so I don't really know 21:56:54 i uess nobody ever used it 21:56:57 -!- atriq has changed nick to awesome. 21:57:05 even the, gah, windows sever powerusers 21:57:10 sewer 21:57:10 -!- awesome has changed nick to atriq. 21:57:12 danm 21:57:13 server 21:57:28 I used to answer stuff on stack overflow but I got bored when I got all the privileges :I 21:57:36 There's still badges but they're meh hard 21:58:25 Powershell manages to be more verbose than you reasonably want in a shell. 21:59:06 Today I actually tried to climb a building 21:59:19 :) 21:59:22 It's C# with a funny syntax. 21:59:25 echo *.txt|grep foo 21:59:27 is like 21:59:30 BECAUSE ADVENTURE 22:00:13 new-object Searcher::$search(call-static-method File::OfType("txt")) 22:00:15 ¬u¬ 22:00:18 Or something like that I don't know 22:00:30 hehee 22:00:32 ehehe 22:00:40 what a spectacular fail 22:01:24 BTW, because both POSIX and common systems permit some massive brain damage, "echo *.txt|grep foo" does not quite do what you think it does. 22:01:48 http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=youre_not_a_nerd 22:02:26 ... I meant cat! 22:02:27 ¬u¬ 22:02:30 It's late. 22:02:40 Ok here's an actual example 22:03:04 Actually I don't know how to search .__. 22:03:10 But here's how to open a log: $AppLog = New-Object -TypeName System.Diagnostics.EventLog -ArgumentList Application 22:03:27 cool 22:03:31 they have $ 22:04:06 oh yes 22:04:07 pikhq: echo *.txt|grep foo seems to do what i thought it does. 22:04:29 ion: Consider the file -n.txt 22:04:49 Solution: don't name files like that 22:04:54 Or perhaps the file \n.txt (in C string notation "\\n.txt") 22:05:02 Sleepy time. 22:05:48 pikhq: That behavior is what i think it has. It’s not what i’d *hope* it had, but that’s another matter. :-P 22:05:51 Lumpio-: Solution, smack whoever thought echo should be anything but int main(int argc, char**argv){for(int i = 1; i < argc; i++)puts(argv[i]);} 22:06:19 atriq: was it a portable toilet? 22:06:23 or something bigger/ 22:06:29 pikhq_: that does not solve the bigger problem at all 22:06:30 (which, incidentally, remains a POSIX compliant echo.) 22:06:32 BIGGER 22:06:39 I didn't get very far, though 22:07:04 elliott: Nah, but it's *less* brain-damaged at least. 22:07:05 a gazebo? 22:07:26 'Course, second you add spaces to your filenames, it breaks like crazy. 22:07:29 * ion kills the gazebo 22:07:31 I got a couple meters off the ground before I realised that the column I was ascending led to a horizontal wall thing 22:07:33 well why fix echo when there is also every other command with options 22:07:36 pikhq_: btw that is not a compliant echo 22:07:38 nooga, a SHOPPING CENTRE 22:07:47 Oh, dur, puts does append newlines after everything. 22:08:11 ion? 22:08:30 No, I did not climb ion 22:08:36 int main(int argc, char**argv){for(int i = 1; i < argc; i++)printf("%s",argv[i]);puts("");} 22:08:48 Wait 22:08:49 pikhq_: try again 22:08:56 It was a leisure and retail complex 22:08:58 Whatever that is 22:08:59 i meant an arbour, not gazebo 22:09:07 i'm not even sure what gazebo is 22:09:10 Blah! 22:09:17 elliott: Let's not. 22:09:19 stupid word 22:09:28 A gazebo is like a tent on stilts 22:09:36 main = fmap unwords getArgs >>= putStrLn 22:09:37 elliott: Complaint echo does not have options, so what do you mean, "every other command with options"? 22:09:48 Except without walls 22:09:55 "Implementations shall not support any options." -- POSIX 22:10:00 ann arbor 22:10:08 well i mean "echo *.txt" not doing the right thing compared to globbing with any command that accepts options 22:10:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:10:11 like cat *.txt or whatever 22:10:18 and don't complain about cat's options or i'll just find a command with options you like :P 22:10:25 pikhq_: btw echo *.txt actually works perfectly 22:10:25 No, I did not climb an arbor 22:10:28 since -n.txt is not -n 22:10:30 Why would you even IMPLY that 22:10:31 at least here 22:10:34 cat -- *.txt 22:10:36 (of course spaces still mess it up) 22:10:55 once I climbed an arbor 22:10:58 nooga: http://www.comedycorner.org/90.html 22:11:10 The above actually works. Perfectly. 22:11:16 an I was slightly drunk and then i fell because i was afraid of falling 22:12:03 define the above 22:12:10 cat -- *.txt 22:12:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:12:16 if "cat -- *.txt" is an ok solution then surely "echo -- *.txt" is too 22:12:22 i.e. the problem isn't actually that echo has options there 22:12:34 Except echo does not support options. Not even -- 22:12:40 Isn’t echo officially deprecated in the POSIX spec? 22:12:43 ion: No. 22:12:53 I'm reading it. It is not deprecated. 22:13:32 The problem with the POSIX echo spec is that it doesn't match any existing implementation. 22:13:34 :) 22:13:49 it matches the one pikhq_ will write in one IRC line in three seconds 22:14:00 “New applications are encouraged to use printf instead of echo.” – echo(1posix) 22:14:14 Gregor: POSIX-but-not-XSI echo does map very well to sufficiently old UNIX. 22:14:20 ion: yeah, i was the Eric before a looked up the goddamn gazebo in my dictionary 22:14:29 ion: That is informative text, not a statement of deprecation. 22:14:49 ion: That's not the same thing as deprecation. 22:14:55 i wonder how's echo in Plan9 22:15:10 Also, the 1posix man pages are not the spec, but a derivative thereof. :P 22:15:27 elliott: Fun fact: It's impossible to write echo for GHC. 22:15:32 A compliant echo, that is. 22:15:33 hey ion 22:15:38 i hear you linked to maddox 22:15:41 eat shit and die? 22:15:54 As an answer to your question: feel free to. 22:16:21 hey man i'm just a soldier in someone else's war 22:16:26 Gregor: It appears to be POSIXly correct. 22:16:30 the war of the hoovers 22:16:35 shachaf: Because +RTS? 22:16:35 you can listen to repulsive idiots all you want 22:16:43 Though it does handle "-n" as the first operand. 22:16:59 How about with -rtsopts=none? 22:17:22 ion: z: RTS options are disabled. Link with -rtsopts to enable them. 22:17:22 No translations, though, so it's not XSI at all. 22:17:30 shachaf: duh 22:18:44 Also: int main(int argc, char**argv){for(int i = 1; i < argc; i++)printf("%s%c",argv[i],i==argc-1?'\n':' ');} 22:20:15 pikhq_: That doesn't print a newline for an empty command line. 22:20:17 pikhq_: fails to handle printf failing 22:20:20 also what shachaf said 22:22:44 I wonder what would happen if Kipple was working with queues instead of stacks 22:23:48 elliott: You forgot to mention the undefined behavior bit where it doesn't return 0. 22:24:05 main doesn't have to return 22:24:15 shachaf: that's ok 22:24:16 shachaf: C99 22:24:20 Isn't that a C++-only thing? 22:24:22 shachaf: In C99, if you reach the end of main you return 0. 22:24:23 no, C99 22:24:25 elliott: Fine. int main(int argc, char**argv){for(int i = 1; i < argc; i++)if(printf("%s%s",argv[i],i!=argc-1?" ":"")<0)return 1;return putchar('\n') != EOF;} 22:24:26 Oh. 22:24:27 it's dumb though 22:24:29 i dislike it 22:24:32 * shachaf is still in C89 land. 22:24:38 Or maybe "things that make any sense" land. 22:24:50 pikhq_: makes assumptions as to what a return value of 1 means 22:24:58 also known as "ancient C" land? 22:24:59 perhaps you want EXIT_FAILURE? 22:25:17 elliott: No. POSIX echo returns some value greater than 0 on an error. 22:25:29 hm 22:25:31 accepted 22:25:32 elliott: It does not have to have semantics other than being greater than 0. 22:25:52 hmm 22:26:29 pikhq_: what if argv[i] is NULL? can that ever happen? 22:27:22 No, for 0 < i < argc. 22:27:40 It even handles the argc == 0 case. 22:27:57 hrm 22:28:03 shachaf: No, it's not. It's initialized to 1 even if argc <= 1. 22:28:22 fizzie: huh? 22:28:26 "and even if Chris doesn't respond to your pull request for three or four years, at least your fork will be out there and available to anyone else who might be interested." 22:28:30 Oh, it was inside the loop. 22:28:31 Hmm, is that particularly likely? 22:28:35 I did not SEE. 22:28:46 Sgeo: yes. chris hates pull requests. and the web. 22:28:59 he quit IRC because he refuses to use any other protocol but ssh and gopher. 22:29:04 this is also why he cannot be contacted 22:29:40 pikhq_: anyway I guess that might be valid 22:29:48 I bet it's still not compliant. 22:30:01 maybe not 22:30:03 it seems fairly airtight though 22:30:10 i was tryign to think of overflow behaviours with argc but that seems ok too 22:30:13 *trying 22:30:23 Wait, which echo specification are we talking about here? 22:30:28 POSIX. 22:30:34 Not XSI, just POSIX. 22:30:38 All of them. Simultaneously. 22:30:42 (not really) 22:30:45 Where's the spec? 22:30:53 POSIX echo is boring though, judging by the echo(1posix) man page 22:30:55 http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/echo.html 22:31:17 Oh, part of that spec is XSI. 22:31:18 -n as the first operand is implementation-defined, as are instances of backslash in the operands. 22:31:32 And I define them to be "they are treated as ordinary strings". 22:31:40 pikhq_: looks like you have to deal with locales 22:31:45 given ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES 22:32:25 Not if you have no diagnostic messages. 22:32:34 elliott: I do so correctly, by having no diagnostic messages. 22:32:45 "Determine the locale for the interpretation of sequences of bytes of text data as characters (for example, single-byte as opposed to multi-byte characters in arguments)." 22:32:50 XSI-only. 22:32:54 shachaf: yes but that's XSI :( 22:32:56 Oh, right. 22:33:13 seems like this is more likely to be an invalid C program than non-compliant with the POSIX spec 22:33:29 Well, you need #include 22:33:33 But I guess that was implied. 22:33:37 I was taking that as read. 22:39:57 pikhq_: Now golf it. 22:42:27 int main(int a,char**b){int i=1;for(;i is continuing to printf after an error ok 22:44:38 are you allowed to execvp("/bin/echo", argv)? 22:44:51 olsner: No, because /bin does not need to exist. 22:44:59 I'm pretty sure that won't compile because argv isn't in scope. 22:45:02 I think I meant execv 22:45:39 /bin/echo is not guaranteed to exist, nor is /bin. 22:46:12 int main(int a,char**b){while(*b)printf("%s%c",*b,*b++?' ':'\n')>0||exit(1);} 22:46:18 is that correct 22:46:24 oh that should be *(b++) 22:46:46 I'm pretty sure the argv vector is not NULL terminated. 22:46:54 pikhq_: It is. 22:46:58 It is. 22:47:02 argv[argc] == NULL is in the C spec. 22:47:02 Okay then. 22:47:14 olsner: It is strictly conformant for all POSIX utilities to be shell builtins, and for the shell itself to not actually exist in the filesystem at all. 22:47:29 oh it should be *++b 22:47:31 not *(b++) 22:47:46 elliott: exit() isn't golf if you count the #include 22:47:54 pikhq_: ah, that kills any exec-based solution 22:48:00 shachaf: mm 22:48:05 olsner: just exec sh 22:48:14 I wonder if I should learn how to use yoob 22:48:24 elliott: that only works if the shell is in the filesystem? 22:48:37 or are you always able to exec sh? 22:49:00 elliott: Wait, what's your correct program? 22:49:10 int main(int a,char**b){while(*b)printf("%s%c",*b,*++b?' ':'\n')>0||exit(1);} 22:49:25 technically both mine and pikhq_'s programs are wrong 22:49:29 because printf can print only some output sometimes 22:49:50 So? 22:49:57 what do you mean so 22:50:19 elliott: Yours is wrong because it prints argv[0] 22:50:59 According to POSIX, all of the standard utilities must be executable via exec(), even if they are implemented as shell builtins. 22:51:01 good point 22:51:03 (what do you mean so) 22:51:06 Also doesn't handle the no argument case. 22:51:21 Except the "special" builtins, which needn't be. 22:51:30 elliott: Oh boy, when you run your code with argc==0, it prints the environment! 22:51:44 (On Linux/glibc/etc., that is. It's undefined behavior, of course.) 22:51:55 Also if you fix the thing that makes it not even compile. 22:52:08 So, it's valid to have the C compiler as a shell builtin, but a POSIX system must execute that shell builtin on exec("cc") 22:52:10 is '\n' guaranteed to equal 10 22:52:20 elliott: No. 22:52:37 There are no charset guarantees beyond what characters must exist. 22:52:44 shachaf: what makes it not compile 22:52:50 pikhq_: What about '\0' == 0? 22:52:54 pikhq_: that's not true. 'a' to 'z' are required to be adjacent IIRC 22:53:01 elliott: The || thing. 22:53:08 and i think '0'+n has to work? 22:53:09 shachaf: is that not valid? 22:53:16 Not according to clang. 22:53:22 Instead of figuring it out I replaced it with an if(). 22:53:24 NAME FOUR FICTIONAL JAKES 22:53:27 shachaf: You're handing a numeric literal there. 22:53:55 shachaf: Which of course works. '\0' is (char)0 22:54:16 OK, but are there guarantees like 'a' != 0? 22:54:27 elliott: *Very* certain '0'+n doesn't have to work. 22:54:36 shachaf: Don't think so. 22:54:43 pikhq_: i think you are wrong 22:54:45 elliott: Heck, that's not even true of EBCDIC systems. 22:54:50 well 22:54:53 I know there are some ordering guarantees 22:54:54 iirc 22:54:55 but that's it 22:55:12 Nor is 'a' through 'z' adjacency... 22:55:27 EBCDIC is cruelty. 22:55:31 To specify an integer character constant containing 22:55:31 the two characters whose values are 0x12 and '3', the construction 22:55:31 '\0223' may be used, since a hexadecimal escape sequence is terminated 22:55:31 only by a non-hexadecimal character. (The value of this two-character 22:55:32 integer character constant is implementation-defined also.) 22:55:36 I didn't know that was in C89. 22:55:45 Implementation-defined, but still. 22:55:49 Oh, 0 through 9 should be adjacent. 22:56:11 told you!! 22:56:12 There are no *other* ordering guarantees in POSIX. 22:56:34 And U+0 shall be '\0' 22:56:49 That is the only character with a fixed value. 22:58:35 pikhq_: What about the guarantee that if you order a copy of the POSIX spec, they'll send it to you? 22:58:39 I should hope that's a guarantee. 22:58:48 (POSIX volume 1, 6.1 "Portable Character Set") 22:58:57 shachaf: I don't think that's *in* POSIX. 22:59:04 True. 22:59:07 It's still a POSIX guarantee, though. 22:59:12 But you didn't say that. 22:59:18 I said "guarantees in POSIX". 22:59:25 ordering the spec should be undefined behavior 22:59:26 Oozlybub and Murphy is great so far 22:59:27 Not guarantees *about* POSIX. 23:02:28 wtf 23:02:29 TRIVIA PORTION OF SHOW 23:02:29 WHO WAS IT FAMOUS MAN THAT SAID THIS? 23:02:29 A) RONALD REAGAN 23:02:29 B) RONALD REAGAN 23:02:29 B) RONALD STEWART 23:02:31 C) RENALDO 23:02:41 ^^ in the Oozlybub and Murphy docs 23:02:55 Sgeo: What does that have to do with Clojure? 23:02:59 I reckon C 23:03:02 the correct answer is D) CAPTAIN PICARD 23:03:29 Sgeo: do you not "get" cpressey 23:03:55 elliott: WHAT IF!!! i do not "get" cpressey :'( 23:04:03 I don't even know who that is. 23:04:11 shachaf: you don't get anything 23:04:13 BURN THE BLASPHEMER 23:04:15 cpressey is the only esolanger worth a damn 23:04:21 well ais523 and oerjan too 23:04:23 elliott: I get abused! 23:04:24 By you! 23:04:27 shachaf: http://www.catseye.tc/projects/oozlybub-and-murphy/doc/oozlybub-and-murphy.html 23:05:12 hmm, that reminds me, I should start working on yonguilexiphonaugh some day 23:05:48 elliott: cpressey is more prolific than me, and oerjan is more profound 23:06:17 and AmBF/AmbiF (it has two official names) has really got me annoyed, because I'm still not sure if it's TC 23:06:23 the only thing it's missing is arbitrary effect at arbitrary point 23:06:28 I guess fizzie is good too for fungot 23:06:28 elliott: did they make it easier to use than a keyboard. 23:06:29 and you know how annoying /those/ things are to prove TC 23:06:43 but every esolanger beyond that is unnecessary 23:06:55 contemporary, that is 23:07:00 elliott: It's a good thing I'm not an esolanger, isn't it? 23:07:01 oh I forgot Keymaker, pah 23:07:08 shachaf: yes, not even 23:07:14 * shachaf is necessary. 23:07:28 ais523: Is arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point even well-defined? 23:07:31 I've always been suspicious of it. 23:07:31 no 23:07:34 arbitrary effect at arbitrary point is what's needed for quineness, right? Or, well, providing arbitrary effect at arbitrary point is necessary for a proof of the existence of a quine to hold, in addition to TC 23:07:45 Am I understanding correctly? 23:07:57 but it's a good explanation to use for "I've been able to create two bignum counters in this with increment, decrement, and zero test and I'm /still/ not sure it's TC" 23:08:00 Sgeo: ? 23:08:16 elliott: I basically consider the TCness rules as not a mathematical definition but a heuristic 23:09:22 elliott: anyway, this nondeterministic BF variant is definitely TC if you add conditional goto 23:09:26 I'd explain to oerjan but he isn't here 23:09:36 what is ambif btw 23:09:51 also the word I was thinking when I said "unnecessary" was actually "inessential" 23:10:06 elliott: it's like BF, with a tape infinite both ways and bignum elements; and + does - instead half the time, and < does > instead half the time (and vice versa) 23:10:13 (i.e. + and - are the same, and < and > are the same) 23:10:24 ais523: is this on the wiki? 23:10:26 no 23:10:31 I should probably add it some time but I'm lazy 23:10:42 anyway, the name is /pronounced/ like "am BF" or "ambi-F" 23:10:48 and it is spelled in such a way that you can't tell which it is, which is impossible 23:10:52 so I'm having issues titling the page 23:11:07 ais523: What's the point of the "vice versa"? 23:11:12 at least it's not spelled /// 23:11:14 Just get rid of - and > 23:11:21 shachaf: well, yes 23:11:43 Also get rid of , and . 23:11:45 ais523: make it so that [ does ] half the time too 23:11:55 elliott++ makes a good point. 23:12:05 shachaf: oh, I did get rid of , and . 23:12:07 just forgot to tell anyone 23:12:14 and that would make the thing even harder to deal with 23:12:20 i'd keep . 23:12:23 it doesn't harm semantics, right? 23:12:51 You can keep . as long as it does , half the time. 23:13:02 elliott: it doesn't 23:13:09 but you can't distinguish between n and -n 23:13:26 and above 2, can't distinguish between two numbers if they have the same parity 23:13:33 so you couldn't actually construct anything coherent to output 23:13:43 at least, can't non-destructively distinguish 23:13:49 and any distinction would be probabilistic as-is 23:13:52 ais523: make it normalise the output to what's observable, then 23:13:58 take abs as first step, obviously 23:14:06 yes 23:14:13 you should probably make it output bits, actually 23:14:17 just caring about 0 and non-0 23:14:18 -!- jiella has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:14:25 you can construct 0 and ±1 trivially 23:14:34 ais523: Just base it on boof 23:14:35 amboof 23:14:36 IMO use * and @ for +- and <>, I think some other derivative does that 23:14:37 there's some doubt as to whether you can reliably construct ±2, and if it's useful to do that 23:14:52 I guess we should work out the IPA for it 23:14:54 and use that in the title 23:14:57 elliott: Why would you use @ for <>? 23:15:09 @ doesn't exist yet. 23:16:18 /ˈæmbiːɛf/ 23:16:24 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:16:35 Does æ mean the thing which is pronounced as "ea"? 23:16:41 As in "and". 23:17:08 shachaf: it's basically what English people do when trying to pronounce short "a" 23:17:25 As in "and"? 23:17:34 yes, or "ambiguous" 23:17:37 so i'm trying to run the example brainfuck program used on the Dbfi page to test the self-interpreter's speeds 23:17:47 Wait, "ambiguous" isn't pronounced like "and". 23:17:53 /æmˈbɪɡjuəs/ /ænd/ 23:17:53 The 'a', I mean. 23:17:59 are according to Wiktionary 23:18:03 and I'm trying to run it in a brainfuck interpreter written in thue, itself ran in a thue interpreter in java 23:18:04 and I pronounce them the same way 23:18:09 how do they differ in your language? 23:18:16 and well it's been running for almost two minutes now 23:18:21 Arc_Koen: you can expect that to take a while 23:18:22 You = wiktionary = wrong :-( 23:18:35 thue has an inherent O(n) slowdown 23:18:38 I have no idea what that brainfuck program was supposed to do 23:18:41 shachaf: so how do they differ in your accent? 23:18:48 ais523: I thought this slowdown could easily be reduce 23:18:50 ais523: I'd pronounce the 'a' in "ambiguous" like the 'u' in "up". 23:18:56 wow 23:18:59 that's a weird accent 23:19:07 Or maybe I wouldn't. 23:19:11 by making a thue interpreter that, instead of selectng rules randomly, would "sort" them 23:19:18 umbiguous 23:19:19 It might not quite be like that, but it's certainly not like "and". 23:19:23 although pretty much any vowel can be pronounced as anything if you go looking around for weird accents 23:19:24 That's way drawn out. 23:19:32 Arc_Koen: you still have to see where the rules match 23:19:35 that is, always trying to apply rules from the top of the rule list, and always placing the last rule used on top of the list 23:19:38 I might pronounce it that was for a long word like "ambiguity". 23:19:38 true 23:19:45 I've said ambiguous in so many ways now that I've forgotten the right way to say it (if I ever knew any) 23:19:56 olsner: So have I. :-( 23:20:04 ais523: I might just be wrong. 23:20:08 writing a system to try first where the last change has been made might be slightly more complicated 23:20:11 (About how I say it.) 23:20:14 (took about three tries to get there) 23:20:17 Arc_Koen: so basically each interpreter step is proportional to the size of the internal state 23:20:21 that's what causes the O(n) slowdown 23:20:26 Thutu has the same problem for the same reason 23:20:27 but still, the sorting rules thing would make it much faster I think 23:20:32 despite running rules in deterministic order 23:20:53 is that the best that can be done, or is that just because the thue interpreters are not very good? 23:20:58 wait, uh 23:21:02 it's stopped (finally) 23:21:07 olsner: it's possible to optimise it in many practically useful special cases 23:21:08 and it DOESN'T DO ANYTHING 23:21:10 but not in general, IIRC 23:21:17 Arc_Koen: sure, benchmarks rarely do 23:21:22 unless you're running Crysis or something 23:21:25 well technically it tried to print the number 11001010 23:21:48 (note: I don't have a BF version of Crysis to check; Lost Kingdoms is normally considered the closest substitute) 23:21:51 but I only implemented the result of the . operator for ascii values 10 and 32-126 23:21:56 ais523: Do you pronounce "ambiguous" like "America"? 23:22:03 has anyone here actually completed Lost Kingdoms, btw? 23:22:06 shachaf: yes 23:22:23 ais523: So do I, I think. 23:22:24 the thue interpreter in java seems to be pretty slow too 23:22:34 So you pronounce "america" with "æ"? 23:22:40 And you pronounce "and" with "æ"? 23:22:40 (it allows me to see the internal state) 23:22:51 shachaf: yes 23:23:00 I only really have one sort of short "a" for the starts of words 23:23:07 but it does allow escaped characters in replacement rules, which is nice 23:23:46 ais523: You pronounce "and" like "america"? 23:23:49 And they call *me* crazy! 23:23:59 and an america start with the same vowerl 23:24:15 shachaf: only the first vowel 23:24:17 not the entire wordes 23:24:18 "vowerl" is the British spelling of "vowel", right? 23:24:20 *words 23:24:21 ais523: Well, yes. 23:24:37 shachaf: "er" for "e" in "vowel" is quite a common accent in the UK 23:24:43 although I'd typically pronounce it as "vowl" 23:24:53 it was a typo btw 23:25:23 elliott: Just like "colour", right? 23:26:55 huh, New York just banned soda 23:27:04 I thought it only banned large ones 23:27:08 yes 23:27:09 hi copumpkin 23:27:13 hi shachaf 23:27:24 what do you mean "banned soda"? 23:27:46 basically shops aren't allowed to sell more than 16oz at a time 23:27:51 copumpkin: Rec is pretty nifty. 23:27:55 sadly, I'm British, and as such am not entirely sure how much 16oz is 23:27:57 Rec? 23:28:00 how much is that in metric? 23:28:01 @src Rec 23:28:01 newtype Rec a = InR { outR :: Rec a -> a } 23:28:04 wasn't that "unless the customer asks"? 23:28:05 ais523: it's a lot 23:28:10 shachaf: oh, the non-termination type 23:28:10 ah, OK 23:28:19 elliott: Can you use newtype P = InP { outP :: forall a. P -> a } to write Y? 23:28:21 I thought 1 oz was about 30 grams 23:28:27 copumpkin: Yes. It's Curry's paradox. 23:28:28 shachaf: I think yes 23:28:29 let me try 23:28:32 Conversion result: 473.2 mL (milliliters), assuming oz is US fluid ounces. 23:28:33 hmm 23:28:34 nobody spoil 23:28:46 I thought they just banned the "if the customer doesn't say how much they want, then they want a huge one" policy 23:28:49 350ml is about standard for a small bottle of drink in the UK 23:28:50 or something 23:28:54 shachaf: hey how do I define P in lambdabot 23:29:03 which corresponds to 12oz 23:29:05 elliott: You don't. :-( 23:29:06 for the record our previous president made up a tax on soda 23:29:12 50cl is the normal soda bottle size here 23:29:26 @let newtype P 23:29:26 EmptyDataDecls is not enabled 23:29:34 @let newtype P = InP { outP :: forall a. P -> a } 23:29:34 TypeOperators is not enabled 23:29:36 olsner: I've seen 50cl bottles too, but they're rarely used for soda 23:29:37 waht 23:29:43 oh 23:29:44 is it the forall 23:29:45 elliott: @let doesn't work that way. 23:29:48 (although they'd be marked 500ml in the UK) 23:29:50 or, well 23:29:52 cans are 350ml 23:29:52 Orwell 23:29:53 @let newtype Test = Test Int 23:29:53 Invalid declaration 23:29:56 bottles are 500ml indeed 23:29:57 @let newtype Test = Test { test :: Int } 23:29:57 Invalid declaration 23:29:58 aw 23:30:00 but cans are more common 23:30:11 mostly I see fruit juice in the 500ml ones rather than soda, though 23:30:16 Cans are canon. 23:30:18 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Double_big_gulp.jpg 23:30:24 "Because using a built-in operation store in this way saturates it, it cannot be used again. Typically you want to make a copy of the store first, and use that, leaving the built-in store unmodified." 23:30:38 Sgeo: which language? 23:30:39 I can imagine how bad things would be if a mainstream language was like that 23:30:43 http://catseye.tc/projects/xoomonk/doc/Xoomonk.falderal.html 23:30:44 copumpkin: Pft. That cup is still smaller than the person holding it. 23:30:47 according to this article the ban is for restaurants, "concession stands" and "other eateries" 23:30:59 I'm sure badly written libraries and programs would saturate important stores 23:31:06 anyway: fun fact: at the University, I can buy a 500ml bottle of carbonated water for 95p 23:31:13 and I can buy a 2l = 2000ml bottle for 55p 23:31:24 even from the same shop, I think 23:31:33 I'm not 100% sure of the logic behind this 23:32:07 ais523: «'Only you MUST eat them both, if you buy two,' said the Sheep.» 23:32:13 for a second there I thought 'p' meant 'pound' 23:33:41 Arc_Koen: that'd be massively expensive 23:33:44 1p = £0.01 23:33:50 yeayeah 23:33:54 and a dollar is usually somewhere between 60p and 70p 23:34:05 although it's probably somewhere really different right now because the world economy is in a mess 23:34:26 @google 1 usd in gbp 23:34:27 huh, 62.21p 23:34:28 http://www.x-rates.com/ 23:34:28 Title: Exchange Rates - X-Rates 23:34:31 it's prety much where you'd expect it to be 23:34:33 Useless bot. 23:34:33 *pretty 23:35:04 I somehow read p as cent 23:35:13 $1 is at ₪3.8288 23:35:19 I guess I forgot how england and america are actually different countries that just happen to speak the same language 23:35:26 Weird. 23:35:30 shachaf: which country's currency is that? 23:35:45 olsner: and also there's a distinction between England and the UK 23:35:49 which many Americans don't seem to realise at all 23:36:00 (some of them catch on when you mention the existence of Scotland) 23:36:02 @google ₪ 23:36:02 No Result Found. 23:36:07 Useless bot. 23:36:21 ais523: .il 23:36:30 right 23:36:39 At one point $1 was ~₪5 23:36:40 ais523: yeah, I will never learn how that distinction works 23:36:57 well my internal money converter is still using the values from my childhood: 1$ ~= 10f (french francs), 1€ = 6.56f, 1 swiss franc = 4f, and 1$ is slightly less than 1€ 23:37:13 ais523: To be fair, even people who live in the UK are confused on the finer points. 23:37:19 ais523: Including elliott. 23:37:42 -!- monqy has joined. 23:37:54 elliott: Remember when I confused you by talking about the Isle of Man or something? 23:37:56 shachaf: you can start a mindboggling flamewar by asking whether England is a country or not 23:38:05 mindboggling because nobody's entirely sure of which side of the argument they're on 23:38:14 ais523: I'm with Rosencrantz. 23:38:24 (and when thinking about it you get "10 is slightly less than 7" but those rates might come from different times so it's ok) 23:38:46 where's guidenstern? 23:38:49 GUIL (leaping up): What a shambles! We're just not getting anywhere. 23:38:49 ROS (mournfully): Not even England. I don't believe in it anyway. 23:38:50 GUIL: What? 23:38:50 ROS: England. 23:38:50 GUIL: Just a conspiracy of cartographers, you mean? 23:39:06 copumpkin: Dead. 23:39:09 damn 23:39:29 I suppose Rosencrantz probably is too then 23:39:33 I think the latest terminology is that the UK is a nation, or a state, and that England, Scotland, Wales are countries, and screw all the smaller constituents of the UK because classifying Northern Ireland is a political minefield and the other places are too small to bother with 23:39:36 copumpkin: Did you see R&G Are Dead? 23:39:41 but I'm not convinced I agree with it 23:39:51 I read it at some point and then watched a video of a performance 23:39:51 copumpkin: Well, he's in a box. Take that as you will. 23:39:56 I don't remember much 23:40:13 It's good. 23:40:54 ais523: UK is a kingdom, obviously 23:41:04 ais523: and where do you place Great Britain in all that? 23:41:05 ROS: We might as well be dead. Do you think death could possibly be a boat? 23:41:05 GUIL: No, no, no... Death is... not. Death isn't. You take my meaning. Death is the ultimate negative. Not-being. You can't not-be on a boat. 23:41:08 ROS: I've frequently not been on boats. 23:41:11 GUIL: No, no, no - what you've been is not on boats. 23:41:17 elliott, explain the kingdom of fife?? 23:41:20 Arc_Koen: Great Britain has already been placed. 23:41:23 Phantom_Hoover: imposter. 23:41:25 It's pretty solid where it is. 23:41:35 elliott: Impost*o*r. 23:41:53 shachaf: I was referring to ais523: I think the latest terminology is that the UK is a nation, or a state, and that England, Scotland, Wales are countries, and screw all the smaller constituents of the UK because classifying Northern Ireland is a political minefield and the other places are too small to bother with 23:41:54 Arc_Koen: Great Britain is reasonably simple, it's a geographical term referring to an island 23:41:57 it's a reasonably large island 23:42:05 and it contains England, and most of Scotland and Wales 23:42:10 "The 14 British Overseas Territories are under the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom, though they do not form part of it." 23:42:58 what's the english name for that dash in ń character? 23:43:01 What about the Underseas Territories? 23:43:10 so the UK is a state that contains countries... and the US are a country that contains states 23:43:13 nooga: acute 23:43:17 shachaf: they are secret and don't officially exist 23:43:29 we don't have acutes in our own language, but we have a word for them so we can talk about them in other languages 23:43:34 ais523: thx 23:43:40 They're at Lantis. 23:43:56 nooga: we're not really used to seeing them on n, though 23:44:06 mostly we use them to talk about French because the French are closest 23:44:07 ćóńś 23:44:09 I'm beginning to learn dutch and they have acutes, though they seem to be saving them for onomatopoeias 23:44:13 and we used to repeatedly have wars with them 23:44:16 these are Polish 23:44:45 how is ń pronounced? 23:45:01 It's ńot. 23:45:01 like... give me a second 23:45:10 There should be a modifier for silent letters. 23:45:23 I'm pretty sure we have that in french 23:45:32 shachaf: silent letters should simply be removed 23:45:36 That's so cliché, ais 23:45:46 like ni in night 23:46:15 so ń alone is a whole syllable? 23:46:24 Silent letters are what they read in silent films 23:47:00 it's platal nasal consonant 23:47:04 not a syllable 23:47:11 it just sounds like ni in night 23:47:20 no 23:47:21 sorry 23:47:26 ghhh 23:47:29 nile 23:47:33 noooo 23:47:40 oh 23:47:42 i know 23:47:55 maybe the sound isn't used in english at all 23:47:58 "ghhh"? that's a weird way to pronounce an n 23:48:39 Pater ghoster 23:48:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%83 23:48:53 no idea 23:49:24 Ń (minuscule: ń) is a letter formed by putting an acute accent over the letter N. 23:49:45 I'm so glad wikipedia can teach me those things every day 23:50:05 seems it's the same sound as ñ in spanish 23:50:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pl-kwiecie%C5%84.ogg 23:50:18 olsner: yep, pretty much 23:50:37 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 23:50:48 ó is pronounced like Polish u, which is like english oo 23:51:31 i think ś and ć do not exist in english 23:53:25 we've also got ł,ż,ź,ą,ę and ł 23:53:44 lol 23:53:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:53:48 ł and ł 23:54:01 don't forget rz, sz and cz 23:54:12 mind me if I go off-topic for just one second? - do you know of a brainfuck program I could feed my interpreter with to check for potential bugs? (instructions +-><[] are supposed to be working properly, instruction . works if the current cell is either 10 or 32-126, and instruction , is considered a no-op) 23:54:15 brzeszczot 23:55:00 szcz is a nice combo 23:55:10 brzeszczot -> knife edge 23:55:18 a sharp word 23:56:16 chrząszcz brzmi w trzczcinie w strzebrzeszynie, to remind the most known tongue breaker 23:56:36 let me guess, that's polish for "hi"? 23:56:50 no, hi is cześć ;) 23:56:50 hrm aren't we supposed to throw some vowels into that before even considering trying to pronounce it? 23:57:20 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/quine.b.txt 23:57:36 Jafet: thank you! 23:58:32 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:59:01 -!- kinoSi has joined.