00:18:48 [[ 00:18:48 Absurd Ambition: Towards lifting differential/integral calculus into Haskell (self.haskell) 00:18:48 submitted 1 day ago by enolan 00:18:48 Okay, so first observe that FRP is a language embedded in Haskell for reasoning about systems evolving in time. Then make time first class. This enables time-bending programs, among other things. Remember that "regular" calculus is about rates of change and things depending on other things. Generalize FRP into differential/integral calculus on arbitrary data. (Remember we can find derivatives of data structures!) 00:18:49 Please poke all the holes possible in this idea. 00:18:51 Bitcoin donations graciously accepted here 1EDqgKBx3XuVnMughSzmTtFjqz5zey12Jv 00:18:53 ]] 00:18:55 i nominate this for worst /r/haskell post of any time 00:18:58 any objections 00:19:14 [[I'm aware of automatic differentiation, hence "Remember we can find derivatives of data structures!".]] 00:19:18 looks like their replies are golden too 00:19:28 "Automatic differentiation is not the same as differentiating data structures." "I don't know what that means yet, but thank you." 00:20:28 shachaf: does this enolan guy talk in #haskell at all 00:21:23 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 00:21:28 17:21 enolan was last seen on #haskell 1 day, 1 hour, 18 minutes and 3 seconds ago, saying: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/ 00:21:39 http://www.reddit.com/user/enolan 00:21:40 wow 00:21:59 a supercomputer that's also a nuclear reactor 00:22:06 guy thinks big, i'll give him that 00:22:15 "Architect of the Bitcoin singularity, man of super-Einsteinian ambition, nerd accelerator. ;)" 00:22:20 guys this is an emergency 00:22:23 http://paste.ubuntu.com/1276031/ 00:22:24 someone has actually described themselves with these words 00:22:30 this guy is grade-a awful 00:22:36 (the a is for awful) 00:22:45 Phantom__Hoover: what is that from 00:22:52 fuck 00:22:53 knows 00:23:02 he posted a link to it on reddit, there is no context 00:23:11 no comments, just downvotes 00:24:22 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/10bnuv/mirs_orbit_eventually_decayed_and_it_crashed_into/ 00:24:24 troll 00:24:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:24:28 for the love of god please 00:24:45 Phantom__Hoover: The question is: How can I donate bitcoins to this person? 00:24:50 http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/z8mnv/why_are_tall_women_generally_considered_more/ 00:25:39 if we capture and dissect this man we may finally understand the true essence of human stupidity 00:26:14 "Asking for money seems a bit gratuitous." "I think this is gratutiously awesome idea." 00:26:18 best reddit comment ever 00:27:41 "Anyone who posts like that, and hurts my brain, gets upvotes and possibly BTC." 00:27:57 "Does that mean we need dependent Haskell to express this? I am totally willing to go there!" 00:27:58 careful guys 00:28:04 he's totally willing to go there!! 00:28:11 he went there 00:28:15 "Why is Edward getting all the imaginary internet points in this thread? Where are my points?!?!!?" he actually posted this 00:28:16 no coming back from there 00:29:05 "hey guys upvote upvote!!! it's ok because i've evolved beyond meaningless ideas of karma" 00:29:42 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/yy344/askmath_what_is_a_good_mathematical_basis_for_a/ 00:29:47 oh sweet jesus 00:30:10 @tell cmccann I have no idea what this is -- http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/ -- but it looks sort of like trolling, esp. given http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/c6n0evb... the asking for money thing seems inappropriate but I don't know if you want to do anything about it 00:30:10 Consider it noted. 00:30:26 my work is done 00:30:51 that's a pretty depressive sentence. 00:30:58 @tell cmccann make sure you check his post history if you feel like working up a good healthy hatred 00:30:58 Consider it noted. 00:31:25 Why are you @telling cmccann? 00:31:47 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:31:48 shachaf: I was @telling cmccann because reddit's report feature is useless and he's the most active /r/haskell mod and I talk with him fairly. 00:31:58 Phantom__Hoover is @telling cmccann because he's trying to be annoying, which I'm sure is behaviour you're familiar with. 00:32:11 elliott: Fairly? 00:32:18 *fairly often, whatever 00:32:22 What about copumpkin? 00:32:37 More like coolpumpkin, AM I RIGHT? 00:32:41 ? 00:32:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:32:47 hey do you pronounce it often or often? 00:32:56 copumpkin: shachaf is talking about /r/haskell mods :p 00:32:59 re @tell cmccann I have no idea what this is -- http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/ -- but it looks sort of like trolling, esp. given http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/c6n0evb... the asking for money thing seems inappropriate but I don't know if you want to do anything about it 00:33:02 I pay attention to the modqueue whenever I can 00:33:08 and have done my fair share of moderating recently 00:33:23 You should make elliott a moderator. 00:33:24 * elliott would have reported it if reddit's report feature included anything even vaguely useful like a text box to say wtf you're reporting for 00:33:30 It would be the end of /r/haskell as we know it. 00:43:49 elliott, feel free to report then message mods? 00:46:02 Sgeo: I figured just messaging a mod would be less work. 00:46:06 Formal complaints are work 'n stuff. 00:46:18 "A" mod? 00:46:22 Why not the mods? 00:47:20 You do know that that's a thing, right? You don't have to choose one particular mod, you can message /r/haskell 00:47:39 00:47:46 /msg /r/haskell hi monqy 00:47:49 telling "a" mod, n. @tell cmccann I have no idea what this is -- http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/ -- but it looks sort of like trolling, esp. given http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/11ixcl/absurd_ambition_towards_lifting/c6n0evb... the asking for money thing seems inappropriate but I don't know if you want to do anything about it 00:48:22 elliott wants to tell his buddy cmccann 00:48:30 Because he knows cmccann will give him special treatment. 00:49:08 Yes, I control /r/haskell from behind closed doors. 00:49:17 Sgeo has found out my terrible secret. 00:49:22 -!- Jafet has joined. 00:49:34 I will have to assassinate him and shachaf for their sins. 00:50:05 ok well good night 00:50:15 copumpkin might assassinate you for your cosins! 00:50:16 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: and happy assassination). 00:50:31 Does the co in cosine have anything to do with the category co? 00:50:37 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 00:50:52 copumpkin: Please spare me, my cousins didn't do anything wrong. 00:51:10 elliott: your wish is granted, just this once 00:51:19 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Client Quit). 00:51:47 My croissants are to die for. 00:52:04 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 00:52:42 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Client Quit). 00:52:58 "The cosine of an angle is the ratio of the length of the adjacent side to the length of the hypotenuse: so called because it is the sine of the complementary or co-angle." 00:53:01 --Wikipedia 00:53:33 Don't stifle shachaf's new angle on category theory. 00:53:34 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 00:53:52 Sgeo: Yes, I know. 00:54:04 * Sgeo chokes with laughter. 00:55:25 ...so I type /quit followed with a funny reason, then I click the damn red button to close the application before it has time to reconnect me somehow, and you know what? instead of closing it pops a little window "are you sure you want to close the application? that would close all connections" 00:55:36 "what connection" 00:55:51 "Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! 00:56:03 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Client Quit). 00:57:06 shachaf: You killed Sgeo. 00:57:07 That's murder. 00:57:08 `quote murder 00:57:12 152) Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer. \ 304) elliott, it was an artful robbery! wait, murder \ 826) you've constructed a situation in which i have no choice but to die in 10 days well done that's murder 00:57:40 when did monqy say that :'( 00:57:51 Less than ten days ago? 00:58:01 Presumably. 00:58:05 monqy is a ghost. 00:58:10 `quote ghost 00:58:13 457) monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 504) I MIGHT BECOME GHOST 00:58:15 `qhuost 00:58:19 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qhuost: not found 01:16:38 -!- Jafet1 has joined. 01:17:29 -!- Jafet has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:17:35 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet. 01:18:28 http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/11kav3/the_consequences_of_not_using_paredit/ 01:20:40 -!- hogeyui has quit (*.net *.split). 01:20:43 -!- lahwran has quit (*.net *.split). 01:21:47 -!- hogeyui has joined. 01:21:47 -!- lahwran has joined. 01:36:33 pareddit 01:37:50 Their target market is the non-OCD customers. 01:40:31 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:40:36 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:46:33 -!- trout has changed nick to function. 01:57:35 What mathematical problems, besides Fermat's last theorem, could a solution to the halting problem be used to solve, and to which we do manage to know the answer? 01:58:27 All of them really 01:58:45 Most any. It's fairly trivial to produce a brute-force check of most theorems by looping over all *possible* combinations, that will only halt/not-halt if it's true. 01:58:48 Well, all problem that are recursively enumerable 01:59:00 Which ones were difficult? 01:59:19 And so a halting oracle can basically give you an answer to anything you can write an algorithm, no matter how shitty, to check. 01:59:22 It doesn't work if, say, you need to check over aleph_0 solutions 01:59:37 Preferably a famous one. I have a reason for asking 02:00:05 Poincaré conjecture? 02:00:05 Hmm. I wonder if P=NP could be expressed appropriately. 02:00:15 The thing about it is 02:00:17 Sgeo: anything of the form (exists (n:Z), p(n)) where p is a decidable proposition can be solved given a halting oracle 02:00:34 You can solve most math because you can do a syntactic proof using logical axioms 02:00:35 print $ doesHalt $ filter (isProofOf P) $ listAllProofs 02:00:49 proof: halts?({ for(Z i=0;;i++)if(p(i))break; }) 02:00:51 and what Jafet said yes 02:01:03 The syntactic proof has to exist, though, but that's a pretty wide category of things 02:01:03 You probably want to run that in parallel with (isProofOf (not P)) 02:01:15 And provableIn (modelOf P) 02:01:16 * Sgeo would have done Fermat's last theorem, but I don't see a simple way to loop over a b c and n such that it won't just increase one of them 02:01:37 Sgeo: do you really not see a bijection Z^4 <-> Z 02:01:52 i mean i can't think of a *good* one (fsvo good) off-hand 02:01:55 but Q <-> Z hence pack etc. 02:02:08 elliott, I know it exists, but I don't know how to do it easily 02:02:50 > [ (a, b, c, n-a) | n <- [0..], a <- [0..n], b <- [0..n-a], c <- [0..n-a-b] ] 02:02:51 [(0,0,0,0),(0,0,0,1),(0,0,1,1),(0,1,0,1),(1,0,0,0),(0,0,0,2),(0,0,1,2),(0,0... 02:03:10 hmm 02:03:24 Cool 02:04:23 Wait, why n-a? 02:04:31 > [ (a, b, c, n) | n <- [0..], a <- [0..n], b <- [0..n-a], c <- [0..n-a-b] ] 02:04:32 [(0,0,0,0),(0,0,0,1),(0,0,1,1),(0,1,0,1),(1,0,0,1),(0,0,0,2),(0,0,1,2),(0,0... 02:04:49 Sgeo: because n <- [0..] 02:04:57 need to reset it when you "roll over" 02:05:57 Actually I don't know. That could be wrong. 02:06:15 There are variuos ways to encode pairs into single numbers, such as bit interleave, or whatever 02:09:02 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:10:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:15:25 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:40:31 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:49:27 http://i.imgur.com/BJmIg.jpg 02:52:48 but that left parenthesis has a match 02:56:24 Is there programs for random text generator other than Dada Engine, rmutt, and FurryScript? 02:58:06 autogen 02:58:21 Oh, wait. That wasn’t the one i was thinking of. 03:00:54 what kind of random text? 03:01:10 i wrote http://hackage.haskell.org/package/detrospector 03:01:19 there are a billion programs like it 03:03:02 Ah, found it. polygen 03:03:30 What sort of fun can I have with reified lexical environments? 03:03:40 http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/ 03:03:51 I mean like the examples I have given, though. However these are OK too 03:14:08 kmc: It is good; I do not think any of the three programs I listed have any command for Markov chain, but maybe later I may add command in FurryScript for Markov (including high order). 03:14:25 Anyways, which programs have you used to write your own, which one don't, etc? 03:16:35 You said there are billion programs like it, how many in Haskell and what difference of feature? 03:19:40 kmc: Aww, you can’t use detrospector as a library? 03:21:02 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:21:34 Do you intend to change it so that it does? 03:26:16 yeah, people have asked for that 03:26:18 i probably won't though 03:26:21 because i am lazy 03:29:53 Sgeo: What is reified lexical environments? 03:31:12 zzo38, a macro in Clojure, and probably Common Lisp, can help capture the lexical environment, as in, symbols bound by let and their values 03:33:56 Design goals include speed and full Unicode support. I welcome suggestions and patches regarding any aspect of this program. 03:34:19 kmc welcomes your suggestions into the trash bin. 03:36:26 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:50:54 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:59:22 -!- mean has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:05:08 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:10:39 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined. 04:18:57 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:21:32 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:25:12 kmc: Man, I looked up some things on Google and found #haskell logs with you and ski and all that. 04:25:15 Those were the days. 04:25:19 heh 04:25:20 yeah 04:25:25 i do miss #haskell 04:25:28 Talking about ∃ and things. 04:25:40 i tried reasonably hard to get the good parts of it elsewhere 04:31:23 kmc: You know the way converting ∃ to ∀ is like currying? 04:32:36 i could probably come up with it, but what do you have in mind? 04:39:48 kmc: (exists a. Foo a) = forall r. ((exists a. Foo a) -> r) -> r 04:40:21 forall a. Foo a is like (a:*) -> Foo a, exists a. Foo a is like ((a:*),Foo a) 04:41:02 So ((exists a. Foo a) -> r) is like (((a:*),Foo a) -> r), and if you curry that you get ((a:*) -> Foo a -> r), so it's the same as (forall a. Foo a -> r) 04:41:43 Something along those lines, anyway. 04:42:38 ais523 also says "!" in linear logic is like comonad, too? So, it is not only me. Is it like intuitionistic logic can be a comonad on linear logic, as classical logic can be a monad on intuitionistic logic? They mention how encoding intuitionistic logic in linear logic. 04:43:27 So what happen in linear logic putting multiple "!" and/or "?" together? 04:45:00 Oh, zzo38 04:45:10 An example of what I meant by reified lexical environment 04:45:23 In Clojure, a hash-map is {key1 val1 key2 val2} etc 04:45:39 I wrote a macro, get-lexical-env, that does this: 04:46:04 (let [a 1 b 2] (get-lexical-env)) ; returns {'a 1 'b 2} 04:46:11 Although it would print as {a 1 b 2} 04:46:43 O, that is what it means. OK 04:50:20 I don't know if that's actually a correct description of the term "lexical environment", but it's what I meant. 04:52:25 OK 04:56:35 -!- Jafet has joined. 05:00:58 -!- evincar has joined. 05:27:16 PSY vs Ghostbusters - Gangnam Busters - Mashup by FAROFF http://youtu.be/82LCKBdjywQ 05:31:04 ++ 05:41:52 -!- monqy has joined. 05:47:29 -!- evincar has left. 06:40:33 I made up law of excluded middle continuations. 06:42:42 are they any useful 06:43:06 You can't prove that they aren't useless, so they are useful. 06:43:44 callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left)) :: ContT r m (Either a (a -> ContT r m b)) it is similar to law of excluded middle, I guess. 07:10:04 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: And so pie was invented.). 07:15:04 I have added some more commands in FurryScript now, including AGA IMC MC SHF 07:17:07 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:33:38 -!- nooga has joined. 07:48:49 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined. 08:12:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:42:39 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:18:42 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 09:20:13 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Client Quit). 09:20:35 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 09:20:58 hello 09:27:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:28:17 wb elliott 09:37:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:51:32 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:51:52 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:23:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:24:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:34:02 -!- ogrom has joined. 10:48:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:48:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:59:45 this is fucking scary: http://superchief.tv/leaked-north-korean-documentary-exposes-western-propaganda-and-its-scary-how-true-it-is/ 11:00:10 Someone forgot to tell Gnesa that 0) autotune exists; 1) clown makeup looks even more atrocious in close-up. http://youtu.be/CF2o5RDkq9A 11:01:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:05:18 -!- nortti has changed nick to protip. 11:05:28 -!- protip has changed nick to nortti. 11:17:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:19:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:30:40 nortti: It’s funny when it’s true. 11:43:55 -!- ais523_ has joined. 11:46:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:59:47 -!- boily has joined. 12:01:43 -!- Frooxius has joined. 12:13:16 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 12:23:42 I know The Rock's real name! 12:32:52 mroman: But can you find Britain on a map?! 12:35:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:36:24 Does he have a GPS phone? 12:38:57 Does a GPS phone transmit voice through GPS satellites? 12:39:51 No, silly, it uses the GPS satellites to calculate your location and transmits it to spy satellites. 12:41:56 [image of Keanu Reeves] What if GPS satellites are spy satellites? 12:44:15 Jafet: I hear all phones are espionage devices that listen to you even when turned off, and transmit detailed location data too. 12:44:23 I heard this from that Stallman guy. 12:44:25 ok hopefully my emmental interpreter should be working buuuuuuut I have nothing to test it on 12:44:32 (Disclaimer: slightly exaggerated, maybe.) 12:45:16 Actual quote, for the record: "I refuse to have a cell phone because they are tracking and surveillance devices. They all enable the phone system to record where the user goes, and many (perhaps all) can be remotely converted into listening devices." http://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html 12:45:20 Yay, another cheesy language 12:45:36 what language? 12:45:37 fizzie: actually, that's probably true 12:45:41 Arc_Koen: You need to eat, I mean, write some emmental. 12:45:55 yes I do need to eat 12:47:10 (for the record if I ever have to take part in a conspiracy, I promise I won't take my phone with me) 12:47:11 fizzie: his statement is, of course, technically correct 12:47:30 I refuse to have a cellphone for reasons which are only very vaguely related (specifically, I don't like people being able to contact me at arbitrary times) 12:48:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 12:49:34 fizzie: http://www.ted.com/talks/malte_spitz_your_phone_company_is_watching.html 12:49:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:51:06 Most people probably want their phone to be able to remember where they went and what they did, anyway. 12:51:27 How about their phone company? 12:51:30 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:51:33 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:51:40 Most people are pretty short-sighted. 12:54:42 you mean metaphorically, right? 12:54:44 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 12:54:52 literally, I think more than half of people can focus to infinity 12:55:10 and focusing beyond infinity is not a massively useful operation (despite being technically possible, it just leaves /everything/ out of focus) 12:55:12 But you can only focus to infinity if the universe is infinite :o 12:55:34 The location-tracking is kind of obvious; I'm a bit more sceptical on any claims that phone companies / law enforcement / the gummint would generally turn phones into listening devices. (Admittedly RMS only says "can".) 12:55:40 The universe can be finite and have unbounded light lines 12:55:55 Slereah_: focusing to infinity means assuming that incoming light rays are parallel to each other 12:56:08 Yes, but how are you going to get that! 12:56:12 focusing beyond infinity is only useful if you have a lens that's making light rays more convergent and want to cancel out its effects 12:56:21 Light tends to be emitted isotropically 12:57:47 in practice, focusing to infinity is visually indistinguishable from focusing to, say, 100m 12:58:53 Mostly because your eye can't make the difference if the light rays land a nanometer apart~ 12:59:55 I don't quite see how the actual incoming light would matter when discussing how your optics can or cannot focus. 13:01:32 Do you want me to make irrelevant complaints about something else, perhaps 13:02:20 hey guys I'm getting the weirdest errors 13:02:53 for instance if I try to pop an element from a queue and push it on a stack, when the queue is empty, ocaml raises exception Stack.Empty 13:07:26 http://sprunge.us/DYDR -- not for me. 13:08:06 yes I think it is reasonable to assume I'm the one doing something wrong, not ocaml 13:08:13 You just never know. 13:10:13 ok I just fixed a minor bug that was apparently completely unrelated and now it seems to be raising the proper exceptions 13:10:35 -!- ais523 has quit. 13:10:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:17:03 https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9232477/Pacemaker_hack_can_deliver_deadly_830_volt_jolt The following people were surprised by the security problem: 13:19:45 Like wardriving but more fun 13:21:45 -!- elliott has joined. 13:22:10 Hm, same person behind http://youtu.be/bidDXuM4-2E 13:22:41 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:27:49 libseccomp looks really nice. http://s3hh.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/playing-with-seccomp/ 13:31:13 This is like the path that goes over mountains and through five days of blinding hail to get capabilities 13:31:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:33:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:41:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:42:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:42:17 Hello 13:42:27 heroux, 13:43:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/WASD - oh god 13:43:28 "inspired by brainfuck" 13:46:06 Inspired by brainfuck is a code for brainfuck cypher 13:46:54 so for what is "and several other esolangs" code? 13:47:08 "with elements from" 13:47:28 also which ones? (except for all other brainfuck equivalents) 13:48:04 But then again, I once made an esolang based on unlambda because I didn't like lazy evaluation 13:48:13 In this regard, I would like to suggest that brainfuck equivalents will no longer be listed in the manually maintained language list 13:48:17 Although I tried mixing it up by adding lambda calculus 13:48:40 Hmm. 13:48:54 Slereah_: did you ever figure monads out 13:48:56 Having rewritten the argument I'm not sure that he specified the same loop semantics as Brainfuck. 13:49:03 s/argument/article/ 13:49:04 Brainfuck equivalents are EQUIVALENT to brainfuck, thus they shouldn't be considered separated pages 13:49:11 elliott : Hell, I didn't even look up esolangs in months 13:49:45 Phantom_Hoover:"If pointer is set to 0 loop starts" 13:50:13 Phantom_Hoover: he probably wanted to say "If the value at the pointer is set to 0" 13:52:32 Alright his input is different 13:53:04 He reads integers rather than characters 13:54:54 and you can't nest loops because his implementation sucks 13:57:09 " in order to create a language that would be quick to program" 13:57:18 Yeah, definitely 13:57:43 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:58:21 This is a shame for the wiki 13:59:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 13:59:32 there is not really limited space 13:59:41 are http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snack and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme better because they're not bf derivatives 13:59:58 AnotherTest: Did you check the WASD interpreter? It's... kinda curious, when it comes to loops. Can't say I've ever seen that particular approach yet. 14:00:17 elliott: At least they are not listed on the language list! 14:00:38 fizzie: yes, I have (unfortunately) seen it 14:01:42 AnotherTest: you are wrong 14:01:49 snack is listed on the languag elist 14:01:49 elliott: well snack is 14:01:51 *language list 14:01:56 esme is not 14:02:10 snack shouldn't be listed either 14:02:17 http://esolangs.org/wiki/FURscript another bad language unrelated to brainfuck 14:02:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:02:29 and that should be on the language list, not the joke language list; it clearly has semantics, just stupid ones 14:03:28 I must agree 14:03:53 but I must also say that I never said that only brainfuck equivalents were often bad 14:04:04 There are lots of other bad languages 14:04:53 well the language list should not be an arbiter for taste... the featured language thing was meant to highlight some of the better esolangs but it hasn't been updated in ages because apparently I and all the other admins are lazy as sin 14:05:05 arguably there should be a separate list for brainfuck derivatives just because there are so many of them, but idk 14:05:52 I just noticed the case of "WASD", the creator cannot even implement loops. You can as well ask a 5 year old to think of a nice way to write the brainfuck operators. 14:06:27 elliott: I'm talking about equivalents here, not deriatives, may that be clear (there are many very nice deriatives) 14:06:40 s/deriatives/derivatives 14:07:04 didn't you just find out its semantics are different :p 14:07:09 I guess the interpreter might be equivalent though 14:07:55 But where not intended to be different; I'm pretty sure the author just didn't understand brainfuck or couldn't make a proper implementation 14:10:23 If a new visitors clicks the language list and chooses a random language at this moment, chances are getting higher (because of such languages) it's going to be a worthless language 14:11:04 suspect people are more likely to click random page 14:11:28 anyawy a list of good esolangs would certainly have value, though it's of course completely subjective... the wiki has traditionally been open to every language no matter how crappy though 14:11:50 suggestion: have a bf substitutions page 14:11:54 and, unfortunately, there are an awful lot of crap esolangs... far outweighing the good ones 14:11:55 but that's just how it is 14:12:08 AnotherTest: Be fair, it implements *a* loop. 14:12:09 it's a giant table of the name of the language, the command substitutions, and author name etc 14:12:34 There's quite a few interpreters that don't get nested loops. (Although this was the first one that duplicated essentially the whole interpreter for the insides of the loop.) 14:13:05 delete all pages for substitutions except the one or two with historical interest (by which i mean ook) 14:13:08 First one I've seen, I mean. 14:13:22 Phantom__Hoover: you could have at least read the interpreter before making an incorrect edit 14:13:22 elliott: That people can create crappy pages: OK if you really want it like that; but that they are all in the same language list: definitely not OK. 14:13:55 there should be a QA process -- Quintopia Approval :p 14:14:00 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:14:10 (at least one of my langs is already certified) 14:14:17 AnotherTest: well feel free to come up with some objective criteria for whether an esolang should be on the list or not... the closest thing I can think of is some kind of vote, which would be terribly un-wiki and slow things down immensely and generally result in stagnation IMO 14:14:35 elliott: so I will make a brainfuck interpreter were you input real numbers, and it will be an entirely new concept? 14:14:40 besides, it would be dishonest to portray the esolangs community as mostly full of quality languages... it is a mixed bag and that's how it's always been 14:15:17 AnotherTest: I don't claim to make any judgement of whether it's entirely new or not... it would probably be uninteresting and I wouldn't like it, although real numbers are a vaguely interesting premise for a BF derivative (depending on what +-[] do) 14:15:52 elliott: I'm pretty sure the author of WASD didn't even realize q was different. 14:15:56 still, I don't see how you can just say "the language list shouldn't list unoriginal languages" without realising how impractical that is 14:15:58 Psh 14:16:03 Make it complex numbers 14:16:42 hmm, wasd doesn't actually allow for nested loops 14:17:11 elliott: I realize that, but it might still be possible to filter out a number of cases; such as were one language can be converted to another by simply replacing characters 14:17:36 AnotherTest, that only ever happens with brainfuck though. 14:18:07 well at least that would get rid of the dozens of brainfuck equivalents 14:18:45 i still prefer my idea 14:18:47 the closest thing I can see as being viable is to have a section on the joke language list for languages that are very very close (intentionally so) to existing esolangs 14:19:01 if you think that'll make the average language on the main list good though you're out of your mind :) 14:19:36 what do we need to form a language? syntax, sematics..and.. 14:19:55 What about something like a good language list? I know it's unpractical to realize, but it doesn't have to be a large list either. 14:20:07 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages 14:20:21 you need to define rules for it or people will just put their own languages on and you'll have dumb revert wars over matters of opinion of whether a language is good or not 14:20:34 elliott: I think there are more than 2 good languages 14:20:41 main problem is almost all ideas are either too much overhead/work (and hence they stagnate), or open to that kind of nonsense 14:20:47 featured language process has the former 14:21:03 feel free to put a better proposal for a collection of recommended languages on the community portal, it would be welcomed 14:21:38 speaking of bad languages, seems like good old !!!Batch got an update 14:21:48 what would we do without shubshub 14:24:00 Personally I think that the languages on the "good language list" should be implemented. I realize that some very good languages have not yet been implemented, although visitors should be able to try out these "good languages". 14:25:01 syntactics, semantics and pragmatics.. finally got it 14:25:13 shut up hagb4rd 14:25:56 and it should have a decent specification (either external or on the wiki); this means, for example, that you can't capitalize every word(Like With !!!Batch Really) 14:28:04 The language may also not be a semantic equivalent of another language 14:29:49 How much of a problem are these unoriginal languages right now? 14:30:22 As long as there is a way to filter the good languages from the bad languages they are not a problem 14:30:35 but there is currently not a good way to do it 14:30:57 so I think they're a pretty big problem when you want to find nice languages 14:32:13 wow Phantom__Hoover 14:32:21 did you edit WASD wiki page? 14:32:24 Oh, another requirement should be that the language is not a vague idea, but rather is actually well defined etc. 14:32:34 did you actually CONTRIBUTE to that brainfuck-derivative?? 14:33:01 i don't quite understand why everyone is reacting so strongly here, you guys realise trivial brainfuck ciphers are nothing new right :P 14:33:21 Brainfuck is the most trivial cipher of brainfuck 14:34:07 elliott: something about a straw and a camel, I reckon 14:35:40 your backs should have broken years ago 14:36:11 btw I think Ook! was an awesome idea 14:36:18 it wasn't 14:36:36 it was a funny joke at the time for about 20 minutes 14:36:48 it's just the 36 zillion that came after that were bad ideas 14:38:13 and it should have a decent specification (either external or on the wiki); this means, for example, that you can't capitalize every word(Like With !!!Batch Really) 14:38:20 these sound basically like the rough featured language criteria i wrote ages ago 14:39:13 elliott: I should probably read those, it might be a good source of inspiration 14:39:22 and only two languages were good enough?? 14:39:54 Arc_Koen: how about read the process before making assumptions 14:40:03 that was a joke 14:40:12 it relied on admins do sift through them every now and then and that didn't happen because it means main page blurbs have to be written for the language 14:40:21 and that's difficult and annoying and nobody ever wants to do it :p 14:40:24 so it's laid dormant for months 14:42:58 "If pointer is set to 0 loop starts" uh, does that mean "if the pointer points to the first cell"? 14:43:30 Zeroth cell 14:43:37 Assuming there is one 14:46:50 uh, his interpreter seems to do awful stuff 14:50:22 doesn't seem to 14:50:24 it does 14:50:28 in particular I think the instruction pointer will never wander beyond the first end loop 14:50:47 elliott: I have a list of 7 requirement 14:50:51 +s 14:51:28 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#List_of_.22good.22_languages 14:51:49 your mission, if you accept it, is to find those 7 requirements, and destroy them using enchanted swords and other basilisk fangs. 14:52:09 "This message will self destruct in 60 seconds." 14:52:18 "semantically equivalent" rules out TC languages 14:52:37 let me modify that 14:52:46 I wasn't clear 14:53:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:53:57 hey seriously if your secret agents require a whole minute to read their assignment I doubt they will be a match against the great evil we're all fighting 14:54:02 "The language may not be convertible to another language by a series of simple substitutions." 14:54:31