00:01:47 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:32:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:32:57 -!- augur has joined. 00:34:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:49:28 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:14:45 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:14:51 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:15:38 http://pastebin.com/GxsYVyED 01:15:39 :( 01:22:25 "If the queue is empty, any instruction that would normally use a value from the queue instead uses 0." 01:22:26 ghhhhhh 01:31:56 after a few corrections the hello world program finally outputs "he???????e>?" 01:32:02 not so bad 01:34:32 and after a few more corrections "hell?η?wE?" 01:34:39 note the incredible progress 01:34:54 also the number of characters is now wrong, which probably means I should go to sleep now 01:35:54 (for the record I have no idea what the heck this η thing is doing there - my shell has never supported anything else than ascii 0-127 before 01:39:32 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:39:37 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:50:05 that's more a matter of the terminal than the shell 01:51:04 have you actually tried non-ascii characters before? 01:51:53 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:55:54 not recently 01:56:10 it's not really surprising that it would work out of the box on a modern OS 01:56:26 amazingly, some people speak languages other than english, and want to use computers 01:56:32 WHAT 01:56:36 that's crazy 01:56:39 i know, right? 01:56:51 kmc: Some people just speak English. 01:57:05 kmc: it didn't suddenly lose accents and so on just because ASCII defined an arbitrary subset in the 60s 01:57:16 not to mention punctuation 01:57:43 i don't understand what point you are making 01:59:13 That you could be more confusing about your sarcasm! 01:59:20 (I wasn't disagreeing at all.) 01:59:34 (Just saying that you don't need to go to foreign languages to see ASCII's inadequacy.) 01:59:39 yeah 01:59:57 english does have some diacritic marks, yes 02:00:10 and confounding hyphen with minus with en dash with em dash is annoying 02:00:29 Quotes, too, though nobody cares about that any more. 02:00:33 Not even Wikipedia. 02:00:41 wikipedia doesn't use fancy quotes? 02:00:44 Nope. 02:00:46 i know someone who uses them in IM 02:00:49 Specifically recommended against in their MOS. 02:00:53 heh 02:00:59 yes, random nerds who do it to be pedantic don't count :p 02:00:59 on what grounds 02:01:18 kmc: far simpler to input, basically universal, work just fine 02:01:18 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:01:26 and I think causing fewer display issues with crappy fonts etc. 02:01:28 yeah 02:01:44 it's not a bad justification as far as input goes... random editors would hardly bother with that 02:01:45 i use fancy quotes in latex and pretty much nowhere else 02:01:49 yeah 02:01:56 anyway I am going to sleep now 02:02:13 high-class online publications still use them 02:02:28 newspapers etc 02:03:38 but then again The New Yorker still writes coöperate and such 02:03:43 The Sha Chafer 02:05:44 but hungarian is cooler: it has o, ó, ö, and ő 02:06:13 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:07:48 ő 02:07:57 ő_ő 02:08:02 in french we use « quotes » 02:08:41 and german uses some weird fancy-but-reversed quotes 02:09:04 like they confused the beginquote and endquote 02:12:28 gnight 02:12:32 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 02:19:31 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:19:45 -!- TodPunk has joined. 02:26:41 -!- Jafet has joined. 02:27:45 hey hey smoke weed everyday 02:27:57 is that what you do these days, kmc? 02:28:15 no 02:28:25 smoke weed a measure zero subset of days 02:28:34 i mostly do boring things like work and eat pasta 02:28:41 i am growing mushrooms in my house, but the non-psychoactive kind 02:28:58 though the spores came from a sketchy website that included a baggie of opium poppy seeds as a "free gift" 02:29:43 Do you like music "Funiculi Funicula"? 02:31:06 lol 02:31:11 kmc: SR? 02:31:18 zzo38: I know it 02:31:25 wouldn't say I particularly like it though 02:31:34 SR what? 02:31:43 silk road 02:32:05 where all techies get their drugs these days 02:32:07 (In case you forgot, I mean the music only; disregard the words) 02:32:10 and other assorted spores 02:32:35 heh 02:32:45 are you still mining bitcoins copumpkin? 02:33:24 nah, stopped mining pretty quickly 02:33:31 I still deal in them a fair amount though 02:34:56 -!- amca has joined. 02:43:02 I had idea of pieces in chess variant, such as the "opposer", which after moved, you can change any of adjacent pieces to opponent's pieces. 02:44:57 I use fancy quotes mostly with TeX only writing ``...'' it prints using starting/ending quotation mark 03:08:21 -!- ais523 has quit. 03:19:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:47:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:15:40 -!- FreeFull has quit. 05:25:02 -!- ais523 has quit. 05:31:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:33:23 oh wow, anagolf has malbolge now 05:33:26 nobody is safe 05:42:34 anagolf? 05:44:29 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:44:49 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 06:07:33 coppro: golf.shinh.org 06:07:59 the site's way more complex and better-run than it looks from the appearance 06:08:10 basically, shinh is a really good programmer but not so great at graphics design skills 06:10:15 -!- ais523 has quit. 06:16:26 But I thought those skills *always* go hand-in-hand. 06:40:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:42:47 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:06:43 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:11:34 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:34:18 :D 07:34:31 It also has Burlesque 07:35:31 But currently it's broken I think. (It worked earlier) 07:36:07 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:38:36 oh. 07:38:39 It seems to work again. 07:40:06 Yep. 08:20:12 -!- atriq has joined. 08:21:42 Well, I've started using emacs 08:21:49 It's going better than I expected 08:23:26 atriq: brickbrain 08:27:31 What did you use before you started using emacs? 08:27:34 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:27:41 gedit and Eclipse 08:31:42 -!- nooga has joined. 08:39:48 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:46:20 -!- Zerker has joined. 09:28:20 -!- Zerker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:39:42 -!- mindlessDrone has joined. 09:43:58 hi 09:45:43 `welcome mindlessDrone 09:45:54 mindlessDrone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 09:46:36 mindlessDrone, two questions 09:46:42 First, are you in Finland? 09:47:20 atriq: I think we already did the welcome bit. 09:47:28 Oh, okay 09:47:32 fizzie, are you in Finland? 09:47:33 Maybe also the Hexland/Finham bit, I'm not sure. 09:47:38 Yes, I am. 09:47:44 Are you in Hexham? 09:47:51 No, I am not. 09:47:54 Okayu 09:47:57 *-u 09:48:21 ya you did the welcome thing ..im neither in finland nor in hexham 09:49:11 Okay 09:49:36 Are you in Metzingen? 09:50:03 where is that? 09:50:09 Germany 09:50:33 Baden-Wrttemberg, apparently 09:50:36 It's twinned with Hexham 09:51:59 oh i see ..well i live in this direction 09:52:06 Okay 09:52:16 I don't think anyone here lives in Metzingen 09:52:31 Even though it's statistically more likely than living in Hexham 09:53:32 Espoo is apparently twinned with Esztergom, Gatchina, Irving, Køge, Mumbai, Kongsberg, Kristianstad, Nõmme, Sauðárkrókur, Shanghai and Sochi. 09:53:39 I don't know if that actually means anything. 09:54:00 (But Sauðárkrókur is a fancy name.) 09:54:00 Basically, they get to put on their signs "Twinned with Espoo!" 09:54:06 Sounds Icelandic 09:54:11 It's Icelandic. 09:54:16 South Krakow? 09:54:32 "Sauðárkrókur is a town in Skagafjörður." 09:55:07 is krakow icelandic? 09:55:17 No, it's Polish 09:55:40 I was just reading it phonetically 09:56:15 Although if I was translating the name I would call it Sodamouth 09:56:43 i can't follow you 09:57:01 Sometimes I can't follow me 09:57:04 Don't worry 09:59:23 atriq: "Directly translated to English the name would be 'Sheep-river-hook'." 09:59:47 Yeah, but that's ridiculous 10:00:12 I don't know, krókur sounds very hooky to me. 10:00:25 True 10:00:35 Sheepcrook, maybe? 10:00:54 Sheepstream Crook 10:18:27 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 10:19:01 hello 10:20:22 Hey 10:21:15 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:21:24 this morning was weird 10:21:32 What happened? 10:22:06 well I had a driving lesson and for some reason I set my alarm clock but forgot to turn it on 10:22:19 so I was waken up by someone ringing at the door 10:22:30 and yesterday I went to bed at 4am 10:22:54 the driving lesson was... different from usual 10:24:34 at some point I stopped at a light 10:24:45 Cool. They have taken 11-word sequences from Wikipedia, taught an appropriate neural network using them and used the t-SNE algorithm to make a map of the most common words that tries to group words with similar feature vectors together. http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hinton/turian.png 10:25:02 after one minute he asked me why I was stopping... the light was GREEN 10:25:45 what's a feature vector? 10:26:45 The neural net’s output in this case. 10:26:55 is it like grouping chemical elements according to the molecules they can form? 10:27:38 If you can make a neural network figure that out by itself, then i guess so. 10:51:04 -!- mindlessDrone has left. 10:52:05 -!- mindlessDrone has joined. 10:55:59 Kinda reminds me of the good old WEBSOM. 10:57:34 Dimensionality reduction is a funny topic. 10:57:59 There were people fiddling with NeRV around here, I think. 10:58:21 http://research.ics.aalto.fi/mi/software/dredviz/ these guys. 10:58:43 I even wanted to NeRV something up, but by now I've completely forgotten what it was. 11:36:08 -!- mindlessDrone has left. 11:43:04 -!- nooga has quit (K-Lined). 11:54:17 -!- amca has quit (Quit: Farewell). 12:41:27 -!- ogrom has joined. 12:45:56 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:46:33 -!- Jafet has joined. 13:21:34 -!- elliott has joined. 13:22:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:30:13 Sgeo: why do you keep objecting to your deregistration and then not doing anything 13:30:13 elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 13:30:20 I guess that contract thing but you did it before then too 13:31:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:32:13 -!- atriq has quit (Disconnected by services). 13:32:16 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq. 13:41:18 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:42:10 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:42:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Client Quit). 13:43:37 -!- elliott has joined. 13:45:52 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:46:25 -!- pumpkin has joined. 13:47:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Disconnected by services). 13:47:17 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 14:24:41 -!- boily has joined. 14:53:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:53:21 Hello 14:53:28 Hey 15:09:03 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:23:22 hi. 15:23:27 hello 15:44:33 Is codeeval.com a good way to look for a job? 15:46:16 Browsing through Burlesque's Language Reference seems to take longer and longer :D 15:46:31 Which means I'm on the right path :P 15:47:19 or... 15:47:22 feature bloat 15:47:31 but let's assume that's not the case 15:51:17 Meh. I'm going to do it 15:51:22 And have a honking good time 15:51:29 ...that last line was weird 15:53:22 -!- mindlessDrone has joined. 15:55:17 Sgeo: the only proper way to honk is in by being zen doing python. 15:57:12 AnotherTest: It has more features than I can remember having implemented ;) 15:57:54 mroman: remember not to forget referring to microsoft, as this was their amazing idea 15:58:01 That's why it has a documentation. 15:58:33 I'm going to assume that in every not small software project you have implemented more stuff than you could possibly remember without the documentation. 15:59:04 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:59:28 Well 15:59:41 at least I don't know every sideeffect of any command in Burlesque 16:00:01 So when I golf in it on anagol I have to consult the documentation often :) 16:00:44 Of course, the documentation can't tell you which sideeffect you need 16:00:57 Do you already have support for complex numbers? 16:01:02 so you just randomly read something and judge if it is useful 16:01:04 AnotherTest: No. 16:01:11 :'( 16:01:21 but you are welcome to implement it ;) 16:01:42 I lack a solid Haskell experience 16:02:01 I'm no haskell pro either. 16:02:32 I know the things one needs to know to get most things done in it. 16:02:37 Well, I have never written anything big in haskell. And I didn't learn how to use important features of the language such as types yet. 16:03:10 s/(learn)/\1 well 16:03:44 It's surprisingly easy at the lower levels 16:03:56 and surprisingly freaking complicated at the higher levels ;) 16:04:34 Especially since haskell is nowhere near my field of study. 16:04:54 Which is? 16:05:01 imperative languages? 16:05:15 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:05:29 No. 16:05:48 My field of study is... well... 16:06:01 optimizations? 16:06:10 (for compilers) 16:06:26 just general compiler design? 16:06:41 interpreters? concurrency? 16:06:57 It's a mix of finance, physics, communication technology, mathematics, economy, law 16:07:14 a.k.a. ...? 16:07:41 it's called information technology ;) 16:07:41 The legal implications of communication technology in an ideal economic system 16:08:00 I'm not privileged enough to study at a university 16:08:23 I'm not even old enough to study at a university! 16:08:44 which means I don't have the right credentials to study at a university 16:08:49 because I learned a job ;) 16:08:58 Well, maybe I were if I was invited or something - which will most likely not happen :( 16:09:12 I wrote a paper... maybe if they see that? 16:09:19 Well probably not. 16:10:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:10:55 mroman: Can't everyone go to university if they want to? 16:11:12 I think you can still go... 16:12:38 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:21:42 -!- boily has joined. 16:30:46 Apparently Pythonistas hate reduce() 16:30:47 :( 16:32:02 C people do not like me either because sometimes I use goto 16:32:53 python 3 lacks reduce iirc 16:32:58 ps dont say pythonistas 16:34:46 Slereah_: Sometimes goto is the cleanest way to do something 16:34:55 That's why the linux kernel has goto in places 16:36:09 This codeeval challenge says this company prefers solutions in Python 16:36:22 But this makes me want to do it in Clojure 16:36:44 Do it in Haskell 16:36:50 Then they won't know what the hell 16:37:09 I don't think codeeval even accepts Haskell 16:37:09 Do it in unlambda 16:37:22 I think this was weighing on my mind a bit when I started liking Clojure over Haskell 16:37:40 good criteria to like a language by 16:46:56 AnotherTest: No, you can't. 16:47:06 Universities obviously don't accept everybody. 16:47:24 So there is a very complex bureaucratic system which describes who they accpet. 16:47:27 *accept 16:47:50 Obviously in the form of restrictions. 16:48:00 There restrictions are different from where you come. 16:48:05 *These 16:48:13 for example 16:48:30 If I were to take the entry exam they would require me to have knowledge in chemistry 16:48:41 even if I'm going to study something which has nothing to do with chemistry. 16:48:47 (obviously this is bullshit) 16:49:05 however, if I waste three years at some other school (which does not have chemistry) I get a free pass 16:49:23 so If I come from a different school they suddenly don't require me to have chemistry knowledge. 16:50:42 also the way we study is completely flawed too. 16:51:07 -!- augur has joined. 16:51:20 It's actually the university who tells you what you have to study 16:51:23 and not you. 16:51:43 Of course they hide that fact well behind bureaucracy. 16:52:07 also students have a different set of pre-knowledge 16:52:36 some study-courses require specific pre-knowledge while others don't. 16:53:01 To study computer science at a university of applied sciences (so not a real university) you are not required to know ANYTHING. 16:53:16 so obviously the first course in your studies is "how does a fucking browser work" 16:53:32 which is completely bullshit for people who already know much. 16:53:49 right now I'm in the third semester and we're being teached assembler. 16:54:03 Obviously I already know how to do that. 16:54:33 But I can't just say "I'm not going to learn anything for the exam" 16:54:44 because they don't test if you know how to do stuff in assembler 16:54:55 they test if you know how to do it in their specific setting 16:55:19 so they use a custom assembler with a different syntax 16:55:52 which means you have to learn the differences in the syntax from the assembler you know and the one they customly manipulated. 16:56:20 also you have to write programs for a specific processor which means you have to study that processor. 16:57:00 Not that it's hard to do that, but it costs time of course you could be spending learning completely new interesting things. 16:58:16 Next semester we are going to have "operating systems" 16:58:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:58:33 sounds interesting but it's at such a low level it's completely bullshit 16:58:54 Oh. You don't say? There's multitasking? NO WAY! <- like that 17:00:58 mroman: there is no entry exam for computer science where I live 17:01:23 and I'm pretty sure that if you know the required basis of maths, that it's feasible to succeed 17:01:42 In Switzerland you have to come from specific schools to be accepted or pass a standardised general entry exam 17:01:51 Not in Belgium 17:01:56 (which tests also knowledge you will never use during your study) 17:02:16 It's like saying 17:02:20 -!- augur has joined. 17:02:40 "So, you are good at math and wan't to study math? Let me just check how good you are in geographie, chemistry and french" 17:02:49 (yes, in switzerland they test french) 17:02:56 if you don't know french, you can't study anything. 17:03:09 even if you don't actually need french for your field of study 17:03:20 but that's how the system runs. 17:03:51 and nobody needs french for their field of study unless they are studying languages or french itself. 17:04:41 I spent 8 years of learning french just to be able to be at the point of study I currently am. 17:05:40 Of course, I never had to actually use it so I actually I don't know any french any more ;) 17:05:42 There's a mandatory Swedish exam in Finland that's required to get a master's degree out of the "technical university" schools. 17:05:56 And that just pisses me off. 17:06:12 It's a waste of thousands of hours for nothing. 17:06:32 fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Pois_pakkoruotsi.svg 17:07:00 I mean, yes you can argue that "having once learnd a foreign language is good if you want to learn some other language later in your life 17:07:10 but that's so far fetched 17:07:30 Well we learn french and english at school here as a second language 17:07:40 and I'm learning German after school 17:08:07 not sure how that is in Switzerland 17:08:10 The only important foreign language today is english. 17:08:19 And actually schools teach english at third grade 17:08:27 which is ~at an age of 9. 17:09:18 and you are literally going to have a hard time finding an adult who still knows french 17:09:23 even if he had to learn it for 8 years. 17:09:52 well, we have to learn French and Dutch (since these are the most used languages here). I though French is one of the languages in Swiss? 17:09:57 because there is just no use for french. 17:09:59 *thought 17:10:05 We learn Swedish in primary/secondary education schools (grades 1-12 counting numerically), and there's a lot of debate whether that's useful or not, but at least those are sort of more or less generic schooling; having to pass a Swedish exam as part of the tertiary education is IMO kinda stupef. 17:10:06 AnotherTest: So are two other languages ;) 17:10:21 mroman: 3? 17:10:31 I was under the impression the language areas are rather strictly geographically split in Switzerland. 17:10:38 There are 4 official languages in switzerland 17:10:40 Retro-roman, Italian and German 17:10:46 and French 17:10:48 and more non official languages of course. 17:11:13 AnotherTest: isn't the "call" in "stmnt := literal stmnt | call stmnt | ε" a little redundant? 17:11:28 since then you define "literal := int | real | string | char | call" 17:11:32 At least everything went from French to German when we took a train from Geneve to Bern. 17:11:45 fizzie: Yes. 17:11:55 On they way from Geneve to Bern you are crossing one of the language borders. 17:12:46 Arc_Koen: Yeah it is in that case 17:12:54 Which means there are 3 parts of switzerland where I can't understand my fellow countrymen :) 17:13:06 Incidentally, we'll be passing through Switzerland (Geneva-Visp-St. Moritz-Tirano-Lugano-Milan; okay, so there are some dips into Italy) next summer. 17:13:15 If I still knew french then it would only be two parts 17:13:16 but still. 17:13:22 mroman: isn't it mandatory when you leave in a multiple-languages country to learn all of those languages? 17:13:36 Arc_Koen: You can remove the call stmnt production indeed 17:13:44 Arc_Koen: No. 17:13:51 shouldn't it be? 17:13:55 No. 17:14:05 That would require you to know 4 languages 17:14:10 Depends on the country in question. 17:14:17 and that's a lot. 17:14:20 Swedish is mandatory here, but then again we only have two. 17:14:24 that's not practical. 17:14:34 mroman: note that by "mandatory" I'm not talking about law or anything 17:14:45 Oh. 17:14:47 Well... 17:14:54 again 17:15:00 Learning 4 languages is hard 17:15:34 So it's not really practically possible to understand everybody 17:15:36 Unless of course they happen to be programming languages :p 17:15:51 well, one of them is already your mothertongue 17:16:03 so that narrows it done to 3 17:16:11 I'm actually learning 3 languages 17:16:12 also you might want to include english as well 17:16:13 Arc_Koen: We don't actually speak german here ;) 17:16:42 but yeah 17:16:42 mroman: Swiss German ≃ German? 17:16:45 I think 4 is probably the most common number of languages "learned" (as in, at least a couple of years of it in school) in Finland; Finnish, Swedish and English to (practically) everyone, and then one other that's most commonly French or German. 17:16:52 But yes. 17:17:04 it's 3 completely foreign languages one would have to learn here. 17:17:12 and one somewhat foreign language. 17:17:55 can't you deduce roman from french and italian? 17:18:03 and you have to learn different dialects 17:18:08 Arc_Koen: Well... 17:18:16 Probably the same way you can deduce english from other languages 17:18:36 -!- nvt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:18:55 hmm the opposite would feel more natural for me 17:18:55 it's helps you a little but it's still going to be hard. 17:19:00 *it 17:19:43 We deduce german from swiss german ;) 17:19:45 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 17:19:50 Which doesn't work all the time 17:20:05 because the grammar and vocabulary is not exactly the same. 17:20:08 Arc_Koen: I have corrected the redundant production 17:20:43 so basically stmnt is a string of literals 17:21:07 Yes 17:21:11 and call a list of ids? 17:21:15 Does anybode of you know somebody who works for youtube? 17:21:29 If so, kick his ass ;) 17:21:31 Technically "call" isn't an actual literal but OK 17:21:46 and call is indeed a list of ids, separated by dots 17:22:05 Everytime I jump back in time it reloads the whole video. 17:22:13 which means I have to download it yet again 17:22:21 YOU CAN JUMP BACK IN TIME 17:22:31 teach me 17:22:48 and with my poor bandwidth this really sucks like hell 17:23:05 Arc_Koen: Wait for it to buffer for 2 minutes 17:23:10 then watch the first two minutes 17:23:24 then in the timebar let's say you wan't to rewatch minute 01:00 - 02:00 17:23:38 assuming that's it's going to play that from what you already downloaded 17:23:39 BUT NO 17:23:44 it's going to restart the download 17:24:12 -'s 17:28:14 hm 17:28:24 now I don't have a linux ghc build environment anymore :( 17:33:18 You should just youtube-dl anything you're going to watch. 17:33:24 Then it's local. 17:34:23 my youtube-dl stopped working :/ 17:36:27 -!- nvt has joined. 17:36:52 :( 17:37:00 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: dinner). 17:40:14 One has to keep updating it every now and then. (Disclaimer: haven't youtube-dl'd anything in a while.) 17:48:28 AnotherTest: How are things going with HELP? 17:48:35 Does it have an include yet? 17:48:45 no :p 17:48:52 Well... 17:48:55 DO IT ;) 17:48:59 I seem to have lost interest in help a bit 17:49:00 well 17:49:04 maybe not exactly lost interest 17:49:15 That's one of the most interesting features about a pre-processor I think. 17:49:20 But I have not a lot of time to work on esoteric things 17:49:28 understandable. 17:50:02 If I have free time, I usually work on this networking applications I'm creating 17:50:28 I'm planning to write something bigger in Burlesque 17:50:39 and an include would have been nice :) 17:50:42 well 17:50:46 I just use my own preprocessor 17:53:40 It doesn't have really a lot of features, but it has include, ifdef, ifndef and define 17:53:52 and was written while I was learning haskell. 17:54:43 I'll add it now 17:55:12 :) 17:55:15 \o/ 17:55:19 use M4! 17:55:21 peer pressure has won. 17:55:27 kmc: I rather shoot myself. 17:55:34 i can't tell if m4 sucks or if it's just associated with things people hate (sendmail, autoconf) 17:55:37 I think the answer is "both" 17:55:48 mroman: I just finished a part of the other thing 17:56:00 kmc: I'd also guess "both" 17:56:08 I have to rewrite my paper on that though 17:56:12 but my opinion of autoconf actually improved as a result of using it in earnest 17:56:16 so i'm probably some kind of freak 17:56:25 You are writing a paper about it? 17:56:33 The IEEE guy said it was good but I needed to give more quantitative stuff 17:56:46 mroman: about the networking thing, not about HELP (of course) 17:57:04 kmc: You missed edwardk's lens talk in SF! 17:57:07 and he was probably right too 17:57:15 Good talk. 17:57:49 I wonder what m4 was supposed to be used for ... when do you want a macro language? 17:59:00 The paper might actually have been published directly if I had won a noble price I think 17:59:37 olsner: your hardware is just not powerful enough to do anything more demanding than macro substitution? 17:59:52 olsner: "Its primary use has been as a front end for Ratfor for those cases where parameterless macros are not adequately powerful." 18:00:22 fizzie: wow 18:00:26 kmc: I actually can literally shoot myself with M4. 18:00:38 since 1994. 18:01:12 olsner: (Second sentence of the abstract of Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie. The M4 macro processor. Technical report, Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, New Jersey, USA, 1977.) 18:01:36 "1972 - Dennis Ritchie invents a powerful gun that shoots both forward and backward simultaneously. Not satisfied with the number of deaths and permanent maimings from that invention he invents C and Unix." 18:01:48 "It has also been used for languages as disparate as C and Cobol -- is particularly suited for functional languages like Fortran, PL/I and C --" 18:02:14 Ah yes, the well-known functional languages Fortran, PL/I and C. 18:02:16 "functional languages like Fortran"? 18:02:29 fizzie: were does that come from 18:02:35 The same abstract. 18:02:42 What 18:02:47 It continues "-- since macros are specified in a functional notation." 18:02:48 they have functions! 18:02:56 Dennis Ritchie wrote that? 18:03:00 It's a kind of different "functional language" there. 18:03:16 Either Ritchie or Kernighan. It doesn't exactly say which one. 18:03:20 M4 looks like lisp 18:03:27 and lips looks functional. 18:03:30 *lisp 18:03:43 It didn't say anything about how "functional" M4 is, though. 18:04:53 Ratfor seems to have been the primary use case, though. 18:06:36 There was a point of time where C's preprocessor didn't have macros with arguments either. 18:07:14 -!- atriq has joined. 18:07:28 ("Many other changes occurred around 1972-3, but the most important was the introduction of the preprocessor -- Its original version was exceedingly simple, and provided only included files and simple string replacements: #include and #define of parameterless macros. Soon thereafter, it was extended, mostly by Mike Lesk and then by John Reiser, to incorporate macros with arguments and ... 18:07:35 ... conditional compilation." (Dennis M. Ritchie. 1993. The development of the C language. SIGPLAN Not. 28, 3 (March 1993), 201-208. DOI=10.1145/155360.155580 http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/155360.155580) 18:07:47 mroman: just a warning, HELP is actually much worse :p 18:08:15 I don't have a cpp build environment anyway 18:46:30 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:47:09 -!- elliott has joined. 18:47:10 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 18:47:10 -!- elliott has joined. 18:54:37 fizzie: It's hard to do good macros with any language that actually has syntax =P 19:12:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:16:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:29:04 Some Finns received empty MMS messages timestamped at 1970 after a telecom operator did a software update. A newspaper interviewed the company’s Chief [roughly “mobile plan business”] Officer about it. He said “the testing of the messaging technology started already in the 1970s. Messages may have been left to the phone network back then.” 19:29:06 http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Aamulehti+Saunalahden+asiakkaat+saivat+viestej%C3%A4+70-luvulta+j%C3%A4rjestelm%C3%A4virheen+takia/a1305608399534 19:30:53 * kmc wonders whether to take FreeFull's bait 19:31:32 you know, C has no syntax, a program is just a sequence of characters 19:31:35 that is the only syntactic form 19:31:49 what those characters *mean* when juxtaposed is of course a semantic question 19:32:16 ion: good thing they upgraded their system to get rid of all those unsent messages then 19:32:32 kmc: Then nothing has any syntax? 19:32:58 apparently the reason the TTL field was added to IP is that in older internetworks, as time approached infinity, traffic consisted entirely of packets caught in routing loops 19:33:43 FreeFull: it's reducto ad absurdum from the ridiculous "Lisp has no syntax" claim 19:33:43 Some Finns received empty MMS messages timestamped at 1970 after a telecom operator did a software update. A newspaper interviewed the company’s Chief [roughly “mobile plan business”] Officer about it. He said “the testing of the messaging technology started already in the 1970s. Messages may have been left to the phone network back then.” 19:33:45 ion: amazing 19:33:59 Some Finns received empty MMS messages timestamped at 1970 after a telecom operator did a software update. A newspaper interviewed the company’s Chief [roughly “mobile plan business”] Officer about it. He said “the testing of the messaging technology started already in the 1970s. Messages may have been left to the phone network back then.” 19:34:03 Some Finns received empty MMS messages timestamped at 1970 after a telecom operator did a software update. A newspaper interviewed the company’s Chief [roughly “mobile plan business”] Officer about it. He said “the testing of the messaging technology started already in the 1970s. Messages may have been left to the phone network back then.” 19:34:25 TTL=255 Some Finns received empty MMS messages timestamped at 1970 after a telecom operator did a software update. A newspaper interviewed the company’s Chief [roughly “mobile plan business”] Officer about it. He said “the testing of the messaging technology started already in the 1970s. Messages may have been left to the phone network back then.” 19:34:52 hi 19:36:04 kmc: Lisp does have syntax though =P 19:36:19 TTL=254 etc 19:36:21 Not as much as many other languages, but it does 19:36:27 Otherwise it wouldn't work =P 19:37:01 -!- standa_ has joined. 19:37:07 -!- standa_ has quit (Client Quit). 19:37:11 yeah that's my point 19:37:48 and my other point is that things like (let (x 2 y 3) ...) vs (let ((x 2) (y 3)) ...) are basically syntactic questions 19:37:57 or at least, it is not unreasonable to call them syntactic questions 19:38:15 ultimately words are arbitrary and the participants in a discussion should just agree on what they mean 19:38:36 then i'm not sure if Kernel has syntax besides s-expressions :) 19:38:54 (or besides s-expressions plus a trivial rule for the syntactic form of a combination) 19:39:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:39:09 Kemel 19:40:17 shachaml 19:40:27 o'shachaml 19:41:33 !rot13 shachaml 19:41:34 funpunzy 19:42:29 !rot13 shachamry 19:42:29 funpunzel 19:46:15 !rot13 ocaml 19:46:16 bpnzy 20:01:17 In a dynamically-typed language, if I'm getting wrong but sensible looking results, is it at all plausible that it's a type error, or is logic error far more likely? 20:01:23 Such as, getting 4 instead of 5 20:01:47 Because the Python program I wrote is giving wrong answers, but I feel like if I screwed up at all, it's type-related 20:10:52 I think one problem with Emmental is that its instruction-rewriting system cannot be rewrited 20:12:09 well, you can overwrite it with something else to stop being able to rewrite, but you can't write a different system since the instructions you create can only be sequences of instructions that already exist 20:13:11 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 20:14:01 Then do you have to make up a new one which includes the instruction to rewrite the instruction-rewriting system? 20:14:27 well yes, you can do that, but it won't introduce anything new 20:18:31 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:19:08 That is what I thought 20:19:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:20:18 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 20:22:46 A bit of printing helps me find my error 20:22:51 \n was getting into some of the strings 20:24:12 Ok, so I'm still getting wrong results 20:30:11 I'm actually getting _more_ wrong results 20:32:18 hmm, I guess you've made the code more wrong then? 20:33:19 Not necessarily. 20:38:43 yeah it's alright 20:38:51 you probably corrected a mistake that was cancelling out another 20:40:40 if two bugs are cancelling each other out that's less wrong than having either of those on its own uncancelled by the other 20:41:04 olsner, not if they only happen to be cancelling each other out in one test case 20:51:29 If two bugs are cancelling each other out is that even a bug? 20:53:45 Hm. 20:54:06 Maybe one can consider it a skill introducing two bugs which are cancelling each other out on purpose. 20:54:13 no, it's not a bug - it's two! 20:54:18 Well... 20:54:25 If there is no problem, is there a bug? 20:55:26 Technically such a bug is not observable until you actually introduce a bug by removing the cancellation? 20:56:50 there may be other ways to trigger either bug - let's say in 90% of cases both trigger and you're fine 20:57:13 but some cases might only trigger one of the bugs, requiring it to be fixed 20:59:42 If there are two bugs that cancel eachother out all the time, you've discovered a new algorithm 21:00:55 olsner: Yeah I know. 21:01:12 I just wanted to troll about the definition of it being a bug if there is no observable problem ;) 21:01:37 yeha, how can the code be wrong if it works? 21:02:02 :) 21:02:04 Again 21:02:11 (was supposed to be "yeah", but I guess you can read it yeeehaw if you like) 21:02:15 Technically if it works it can't be wrong :) 21:02:17 I 21:02:23 I'm beginning to hate Python 21:02:29 (If it really works in 100% of the time) 21:02:44 If anything it's bad ugly messy code. 21:02:57 Sgeo: good for you 21:04:42 !c int a, b; a, b = 4, 5; /* look, ma, Python-style unpacking assignment */ printf("a = %d, b = %d", a, b); /* whoops */ 21:04:44 a = 0, b = 4 21:05:00 I'd like to know how many Python programmers have tried that. 21:05:15 I wish haskell had forward declarations 21:05:21 mroman, why? 21:05:24 It doesn't need it 21:05:48 i,i .hs-boot 21:06:22 It's one of these cases where A needs B and B needs A 21:06:36 which in C(++) you can resolve with forward declaration 21:06:47 the guys in #haskell told me 21:06:54 "just merge the shit into a single file" 21:06:57 well 21:07:11 Oh 21:07:20 !c int a, b; a, b = (4, 5); /* maybe it works if I make it more like a tuple */ printf("a = %d, b = %d", a, b); /* whoops again */ 21:07:20 now it's a huge file with a lot of stuff in it :) 21:07:22 a = 0, b = 5 21:07:39 https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/master/Burlesque/Eval.hs 21:07:46 ^- see. I would like to categorize builtins 21:07:55 so I can put them into files by category 21:08:05 but some builtins require functions from other categories 21:08:18 which yields to this circular dependency (or whatever you guys call that) 21:08:49 and apparently according to #haskell there is no way to do it without merging all into a single file :( 21:09:21 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:09:23 also the case matching is kinda messy 21:09:30 but I guess there is no better way to do it. 21:09:46 and haskell tidy removes comments 21:09:54 (which totally sucks btw.) 21:10:02 Oh, I didn't notice that this thing counts y as a vowel 21:10:13 it cleans up your indentation and stuff, but it throws away all the comments. 21:10:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:10:40 (Not that there actually are lots of comments in the code :) ) 21:10:43 (but still) 21:15:53 -!- mindlessDrone has left. 21:16:05 It's funny how little the actual eval function is :) 21:16:54 And I should probably switch to a Map of some sort instead of the linear tupel lookup 21:17:52 I wonder what the smallest lisp written in haskell is 21:19:17 Two test-cases working 21:19:21 http://sources.defmacro.org/blaise/src/ 21:19:25 ^- probably not the smallest 21:19:27 but very simple 21:19:38 Found that already =P 21:20:21 :) 21:21:45 Well 21:21:55 Let's write the smallest lisp interpreter in haskell then shall we 21:22:15 hm. 21:22:30 (+ (- 3 2) (* 2 2)) 21:22:46 One could actually do some regex hacks 21:22:49 to transform that to 21:22:54 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:22:57 (:+ (:- 3 2) (:- 2 2)) 21:23:15 then one declares a data with a Data Constructor :+ and :- 21:23:33 and just let deriving Read do the work 21:23:48 *let me try that* 21:24:26 (writing parsers is for fools if you can just let ghc generate one for you :D) 21:26:03 hm 21:28:40 damn 21:28:46 that only works for infix 21:32:24 You could use a regex hack to replace * - + with (*) (-) (+) 21:32:36 Except you'll have to special-case negative numbers = 21:32:38 =P 21:33:10 Maybe turn "(* " into "((*) " 21:38:44 http://codepad.org/EhQMqj7Z 21:38:50 not quite how I imagined 21:39:06 but it works so it can't be wrong :P 21:39:43 also since this is PythonLisp whitespaces matters :D 21:39:56 if you don't put enough whitespaces in there it's gonna crash. 21:40:33 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: that's dr. turing to you, punk). 21:45:12 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:49:01 http://codepad.org/F3WR4M98 21:49:53 well 21:49:57 not really lisp of course 21:50:12 You'd have to treat defun and stuff. 21:51:01 At least writing a simple lisp interpreter is actually very easy. 22:00:56 where by "lisp" we mean "a vaguely lisp-like language intended to be easy to implement" 22:01:07 actually implementing Common Lisp, Scheme, or Clojure is not easy :) 22:01:49 Common Lisp is weird 22:02:23 (R5RS Scheme is not horrifically hard, either, but I wouldn't call it easy) 22:02:47 Scheme and Clojure are closer to the "Lisp-spirit" 22:03:17 i wonder what's the hardest part of R5RS to implement 22:03:20 maybe dynamic-wind 22:04:02 though maybe that's secretly easy in a CPS transform or something 22:04:04 i haven't thought about it 22:06:56 uh oh, the first hit for r5rs dynamic-wind is an oleg article :/ 22:07:30 kmc: call-with-current-continuation + dynamic-wind are A Fun Pair 22:07:43 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:07:51 dynamic-wind, as in like hurricanes? 22:07:57 olsner: danger danger high voltage 22:08:06 inherit the dynamic-wind 22:10:19 "Fortunately, delimited control operators let application programmers write dynamic-wind themselves; that function is no longer a primitive, is no longer hard-to-explain, and no longer has to be provided by the implementation." 22:13:36 Dead CodeEval 22:13:42 Fuck yourself with a rusty rake 22:13:51 *Dear 22:14:18 One of the challenges is "Email Validation " 22:14:20 (followup question: what are these delimited control thingies?) 22:14:31 "You are given several strings that may/may not be valid emails. You should write a regular expression that determines if the email id is a valid email id or not. You may assume all characters are from the english language." 22:14:43 lol "no longer hard-to-explain" 22:15:39 if it wasn't hard, what's it doing on oleg's site in the first place? 22:15:42 http://www.ultrapico.com/Expresso.htm 22:18:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:22:30 Sgeo: i.e. this? http://ex-parrot.com/~pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html 22:23:38 a correct answer might be that the language of valid email addresses is not regular and cannot be matched by a regexp 22:25:06 that kind of fancy book-learnin' will get you nowhere 22:35:10 !rot13 foo barvaz baz 22:35:10 sbb oneinm onm 22:35:51 (followup question: what are these delimited control thingies?) 22:35:52 shift/reset 22:38:55 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 22:41:53 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:42:25 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:42:34 -!- heroux has joined. 22:44:02 -!- sivoais has joined. 22:51:37 http://soundcloud.com/g3ksan/troll 23:09:19 This recording is hilarious. :-D 23:09:49 ion: Are you using Control.Lens yet? 23:10:33 shachaf: I haven’t written any real code that uses it but i have it in my .ghci 23:10:56 Is "over both" the right way to do it? 23:11:34 I'll probably need to painstakingly learn the operators one by one. 23:11:53 toListOf (both.both) ((1,2),(3,4)) 23:12:35 Well, its type is right and it does the right thing. :-P 23:12:50 shachaf: Btw, i added a bunch of ….Lens imports. https://gist.github.com/3909552 23:12:52 Sure, but maybe there's another way of doing it? 23:13:03 ion: I should probably do that... 23:13:11 ion: Gah. 23:13:24 Wasn't your .ghci about 10 lines before? 23:14:09 This is what i posted first. https://gist.github.com/3909552/fb2dd963e317571249d29f5c4d305dc3c233b707 23:14:30 Hmm. 23:15:06 diff -u0 <(curl -s https://raw.github.com/gist/3909552/a92d0b0506154300baaf2be86b011213bfc458cf/.ghci) <(curl -s https://raw.github.com/gist/3909552/170990e52c4499158f45d1738cdf10796f32513f/.ghci) 23:20:04 http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/12/evaluating-cellular-automata-is.html is this likely to be a good explanation of comonads? 23:20:37 ion: So have you figured out the zipper business? 23:20:48 Nope, haven’t even looked at it yet. 23:21:01 Sgeo: everything sigfpe writes is good 23:21:10 Well, you saw the slide? 23:21:47 zipper ("hello","world") % down _1 % fromWithin traverse % focus .~ 'J' % rightmost % focus .~ 'y' % rezip 23:21:53 Yeah 23:21:54 ("Jelly","world") 23:22:08 But that’s the only thing i’ve looked at wrt. them. 23:24:45 kmc: Are you going to accept typos for the mosh bug bounty? 23:28:13 heh 23:28:16 maybe $0.01 23:28:23 didn't you get some money mining typos in tarsnap? 23:28:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:28:53 kmc: $20 for running a spellchecker on the codebase. 23:28:54 I’m in tears laughing at this recording. :-D 23:29:05 I got $30 more for "minor bugs"! 23:29:27 kmc: Man, you guys are cheap. Tarsnap gives you a whole $1 per typo! 23:29:38 $1-9, actually. 23:33:46 * ion switched from tarsnap to s3ql + S3 23:36:53 kmc: That's because C is as "close to the hardware" as it gets, right? 23:37:41 y u troll 23:37:57 u started it :'( 23:42:32 o 23:42:42 øis523 23:44:17 Thanks, Hanks. Thanks. http://youtu.be/-C2h6JSnM-E 23:49:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:51:16 shachaf: I learned how to type ő with Compose! 23:51:18 Compose = o 23:51:29 kmc++ 23:51:33 I was just wondering the other day. 23:51:54 I settled for copying it from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erdős 23:52:04 it works for u as well 23:52:24 kmc: Presumably it works for anyone who's using the default Compose layout. 23:52:28 i wonder if other vowels with that mark exist in unicode (without combining characters i mean) 23:52:35 womp womp 23:53:28 04F3 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER U WITH DOUBLE ACUTE [ӳ] 23:53:49 That's it, though, I think. 23:54:20 kmc: You should get a Unicode search thing! That way you can look things up easily. 23:54:31 I have a file with all of Unicode that I search with less +R 23:54:40 Er, -R 23:58:42 mm 23:59:16 ӳ is used in... Chuvash, a language I have never heard of