00:00:07 <Sgeo> olsner, good idea.
00:00:15 * Sgeo proceeds to talk about Stargate Infinity
00:01:17 <Sgeo> Built by ancients so long ago
00:01:27 <Sgeo> the stargate lay 'till we broke the code...
00:02:00 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67E-_SQLVRo
00:11:12 <coppro> also bsg is pretty sweet
00:11:46 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, I forgot where I left off and some of the episodes are a bit fillerish
00:12:57 <Sgeo> I don't remember
00:13:09 <Sgeo> But yeah, Vic counts as filler
00:14:49 <shachaf> kmc: So you're going to do a cryptography CTF?
00:17:29 <kmc> probably not
00:18:20 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: did sgeo really stop watching ds9
00:18:46 <Sgeo> I intend to resume eventually
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01:21:50 <zzo38> Finally I fixed FamicomHDL. writeCart works now, and Language.FamicomHDL.Logic works now.
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01:38:46 <Arc_Koen> this anubis guy has watched star wars too much
01:39:12 <Arc_Koen> first he has his jedi-sith duel against michael shanks
01:39:42 <Arc_Koen> then they found this darth vader-looking "super soldier"
01:39:54 <Arc_Koen> and then darth vader turns out to be a clone from an army of clones
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02:00:54 <Sgeo> I wish I remembered what episode I stopped at
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02:29:03 <Sgeo> I definitely saw It's Only a Paper Moon
02:29:22 <quintopia> paper moon was a pretty good movie
02:33:18 <Sgeo> Tempted to paste in a Clojure oddity, but I have a feeling it won't be appreciated
02:33:35 <Sgeo> Actually, hmm, it makes Clojure look like a Lisp-2, if it were shown without any other context
02:47:17 <zzo38> Now I added Language.FamicomHDL.Cartridge
02:48:09 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> ,(let [do 5] (do do))
02:48:09 <Sgeo> <clojurebot> 5
02:48:15 <Sgeo> I consider this behavior to be a Clojure wart
02:48:28 <zzo38> You can write something like (andSignal [ppuRead, ppuWrite] >>= connect irqTrig) makes it trigger an interrupt whenever the PPU attempts to read or write anything. Is that how you would use a hardware description language?
02:48:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you explain it better?
02:49:12 <Sgeo> No, because until just this second, I thought I understood it, but I don't
02:50:58 <Sgeo> Clojure is currently acting like a Lisp-2 where functions share a namespace with lexicals but macros and special forms are in their own little world
02:52:07 <Bike> there's a reason after a while they just call them lisp-n
02:52:29 <Sgeo> Clojure is supposedly a Lisp-1.
02:53:03 <Sgeo> Acting like a Lisp-2 a portion of the time is, as far as I'm concerned, broken behavior.
02:53:27 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe it's clojail breaking up, lemme see
02:53:40 <Bike> first-class special forms are a recipe for hilarity
02:54:01 <Sgeo> But this behavior is extending to macros too
02:56:16 <Sgeo> (The sandboxing that one of the bots uses. And the other bot is offline)
03:00:59 <Sgeo> Should I summarize?
03:01:21 <Sgeo> Or does no one care?
03:16:43 <zzo38> Maybe someone does care.
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03:47:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, unless you're one of them, it's unlikely
03:48:24 <zzo38> Maybe someone who read the log will care in future.
03:48:32 <zzo38> Maybe I care too; I don't know.
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05:14:33 <kmc> "This is my first SF riot. Do we have a VC-funded artisanal coffee shop sponsoring it yet? What’s the hashtag? Where do I park my bike?"
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05:28:57 <Sgeo> What's so hard about cache invalidation?
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05:44:40 <zzo38> I read about esolang "Muxcomp". Can something like this be made for a VLIW microcode, accessing the internal cache memory?
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07:21:48 <Deewiant> @tell elliott I didn't donate. :-P
07:24:38 <shachaf> To D is the D I am going to sleep.
07:24:38 <coppro> two very awesome things:
07:24:56 <coppro> 2) Sibelius' symphony no. 1, movement 3
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07:35:03 <fizzie> 4) People who can't count
07:48:23 <Sgeo> I think I have enough water for a few days
07:48:28 <Sgeo> 5 soda bottles filled with water
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11:38:09 <barts_> Sgeo: are you preparing for a nuclear holocaust?
11:42:34 <ion> http://asunnot.oikotie.fi/card/all-media?card_id=7524781
11:46:11 <ion> Linux beats Windows (other)! It’s truly the year of Linux on the desktop! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
11:50:06 <FreeFull> Linux won't be ready for the desktop for at least 10 more years, unless there is someone who will grab it, twist it into something that people want and put it on machines everywhere
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12:25:48 <ion> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/64582_10151277436123707_560425104_n.jpg
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15:19:25 <Arc_Koen> so there are all those languages which are supposedly "stack-based" but that include instructions like "move top element to bottom" or "move bottom element to top" or "reverse stack"
15:19:44 <Arc_Koen> shouldn't they be in the deque-based category?
15:20:11 <tswett> Well, the data structure they use is *based* on a stack...
15:25:59 <Arc_Koen> (also you could argue that if the reverse instruction has a linear complexity, it's definitely a stack, but if you're actually using a deque you can make it constant time)
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15:31:18 <Jafet> Complexity? You guys should work toward simplicity
15:32:36 <kmc> no you shuold work towards being awesome
15:32:41 <kmc> it's all anyone talks about these days
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15:35:21 <kmc> shachaf: this django-confirmation library generates an email confirmation key like so:
15:35:23 <kmc> confirmation_key = sha1(str(os.urandom(12)) + str(email_address)).hexdigest()
15:35:25 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, if you figure out a non-trivial way of having an algorithm that operates in O(awesome) time or space, I will be amazed
15:35:28 <kmc> i cannot figure out why
15:36:18 <atriq> Anything other than renaming "n" to "awesome"
15:37:12 <shachaf> kmc: It's probably not particularly terrible, as such.
15:37:17 <shachaf> I don't see the point of using the email there.
15:38:52 <kmc> i don't think it's worse than a 12 byte random confirmation key
15:39:04 <kmc> which should be enough
15:39:14 <kmc> but it's very cargo-culty :/
15:39:43 <Jafet> Hey, sha1 doesn't really decrease the entropy. Okay, it probably does a little.
15:41:57 <kmc> yeah, the email is like the one piece of information you're guaranteed the attacker knows
15:42:08 <kmc> in a typical "forging a signup from someone else" attack
15:42:28 <kmc> if anything, hashing in the email makes it harder to notice if the other bit breaks somehow
15:42:41 <kmc> like how Debian OpenSSL was throwing the PID into the entropy pot just for laffs
15:42:50 <kmc> and that ended up being the *only* entropy
15:43:19 <kmc> so Debian would only generate one of 2^16 certs, but that's enough that nobody noticed for a while :/
15:44:34 <Jafet> I thought it also used the time
15:49:20 <Jafet> Entropy should be tracked through the type system or something
16:07:29 <kmc> http://research.swtch.com/openssl is a good writeup of that fiasco
16:08:19 <shachaf> kmc: Is something like that included in your CTF?
16:10:12 <kmc> the one i'm not doing
16:10:33 <shachaf> kmc: Well, you wrote up a list of suggestions, right?
16:10:38 <shachaf> Are you just going to let it go to waste?
16:11:01 <kmc> i can send them to you
16:11:56 <kmc> hmm, but including the PID is a good idea if your process is going to fork() and you have no other way of getting separate entropy to each
16:12:03 <kmc> but you should probably that thing I said instead
16:12:43 <kmc> why doesn't OpenSSL on Linux read straight out of /dev/urandom
16:12:57 <shachaf> Ask you to supply randomness?
16:13:28 <kmc> "As a general rule, /dev/urandom should be used for everything except long-lived GPG/SSL/SSH keys"
16:13:35 <kmc> so okay, they would need some way to switch to /dev/random for those
16:13:40 <kmc> and their API might not be expressive enough
16:13:49 <kmc> shachaf: it has its own PRNG seeded from /dev/urandom
16:14:01 <kmc> er actually /dev/random
16:14:11 <kmc> perhaps once upon a time, the kernel PRNG for /dev/urandom was much worse
16:14:16 <kmc> today I think it is considered to be really good
16:14:42 <shachaf> Is it considered really good cross-platform?
16:15:44 <shachaf> I haven't used OpenSSL personally but I hear its API is pretty low-level and bad.
16:16:41 <kmc> so i have heard as well
16:17:03 <atriq> I was going to write a Haskell interface for the Tumblr API at some point
16:17:10 <kmc> hm, maybe the problem is that you can't get entropy estimates out of urandom
16:17:14 <kmc> surely there must be an ioctl for that :)
16:18:14 <shachaf> root can feed entropy to /dev/random
16:20:36 <shachaf> kmc: I'd like to see the CTF thing if you're not going to be doing anything else with it.
16:25:18 <kmc> shachaf: how?
16:25:50 <shachaf> I think just by writing into it.
16:26:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i find it kind of cute when redditors try to justify video game review scores by saying "well it's like at school, 70 is average"
16:26:40 <kmc> but can you say how much entropy was in those bytes
16:26:45 <kmc> you can with the OpenSSL API
16:27:00 <shachaf> but can you say it in the type system
16:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> because you know, 70% being 'average' isn't just tests being too easy
16:28:39 <kmc> are you talking about raw 70% of questions answered correctly, or about a 70% grade after curving
16:28:50 <kmc> because i don't see why either should mean the tests are too easy
16:29:38 <kmc> why should writing a test where the average student can answer only 50% of the questions instead of 70% produce better educational outcomes?
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16:30:08 <kmc> and the curve is arbitrary, you can put the average wherever you want
16:30:20 <kmc> though i did have a few instructors who used deterministic curves made known to the class ahead of time
16:30:49 <kmc> there were tests in college where the average student got 20%
16:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> and it's not even a standard thing for most educational systems
16:32:10 <kmc> what i thought this internet thing was just for americans
16:32:13 <kmc> who let all these foreigners on
16:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> they had to introduce a new grade a while back because an A was worthless and the universities were just ignoring exam results
16:34:33 <kmc> on GCSE? or A-levels or what
16:35:07 <Phantom_Hoover> And GCSE but AFAIK the GCSEs are irrelevant as a qualification, they're that easy.
16:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the BBC 25% of A-level entries got an A by the end of the 2000's so...
16:36:49 <atriq> I'm pretty sure Oxford ignores them even now
16:37:30 <kmc> so what do you do to impress oxbridge then
16:38:43 <kmc> i took all the AP classes and everyone told me how great it was to get college credit for them
16:38:52 <kmc> and then i went to a college that didn't accept a single fucking one
16:39:23 <shachaf> I should probably apply to university.
16:39:33 <shachaf> I think now is the time to do it.
16:41:17 <kmc> school in the US is too damn expensive
16:41:29 <kmc> though the effect is overblown by foreign commentators
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16:42:10 <kmc> when they say "omg it costs $40,000 a year to go to school in the US" they mean "to go to the most elite private schools, if you get zero financial aid"
16:43:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: How much does it cost to go to Warwick?
16:43:47 <kmc> i'm not sure it's a bad thing to let the super rich spend a lot of money on education, as long as there's a system of taxation and public schools to ensure everyone gets a good education
16:44:23 <kmc> but it's probably a bad thing that private schools have such a monopoly on the top tier of higher education in the US
16:44:55 <kmc> there's only one public school that competes basically
16:45:21 <kmc> n.b. i have been advised that "private school" means something crazy in the UK, please to substituting for appropriate crazy word, thanks in advance
16:45:38 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I'm an EU citizen, by the way.
16:46:40 <coppro> that's about a thousand pounds more than my school
16:46:45 <coppro> assuming you're counting tuition only
16:47:20 <coppro> I pay about $10500 (canadian) per year
16:47:34 <coppro> maybe closer to $11000
16:47:44 <coppro> I don't like to think about it too much :P
16:49:14 <copumpkin> kmc: the one public school being berkeley?
16:49:42 <shachaf> I could probably go to Berkeley as an in-state student now.
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16:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> They don't affect your credit score, you repay like 2% of your income over 21k and if you manage not to pay it off before you retire it gets written off.
16:50:54 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: this is some silly accounting dodge on the part of the govt right
16:51:08 <kmc> so that they can hand out money for university but keep it on the books as something they are owed back
16:51:13 <elliott> 15:42:41: <kmc> like how Debian OpenSSL was throwing the PID into the entropy pot just for laffs
16:51:19 <elliott> Didn't upstream OpenSSL do this, though?
16:51:25 <elliott> It's just that Debian accidentally disabled all the other entropy sources.
16:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially funny when they raised tuition fees as part of 'austerity measures' when it just means they end up paying universities more.
16:51:46 <shachaf> elliott: See kmc's link above: http://research.swtch.com/openssl
16:51:52 <kmc> elliott: yeah
16:52:34 <elliott> 16:13:28: <kmc> "As a general rule, /dev/urandom should be used for everything except long-lived GPG/SSL/SSH keys"
16:52:34 <elliott> 16:13:35: <kmc> so okay, they would need some way to switch to /dev/random for those
16:52:44 <elliott> kmc: I thought /dev/urandom was actually recommended for cryptographic stuff over /dev/random?
16:52:53 <shachaf> elliott: *over* /dev/random?
16:52:54 <kmc> well i'm quoting man 4 random there
16:53:10 <elliott> 16:18:14: <shachaf> root can feed entropy to /dev/random
16:53:12 <shachaf> As far as I know when you're not concerned about blocking /dev/random is generally better.
16:53:19 <kmc> man 4 man, man 4 woman, man 4 random
16:53:20 <elliott> IIRC any user can write to /dev/random?
16:53:27 <elliott> It just magically discards the non-random bits or something.
16:53:30 <elliott> Maybe that's /dev/urandom.
16:53:37 <copumpkin> how do you detect which bits are non-random?
16:53:42 <elliott> shachaf: -- also that's what I thought but then I saw someone say that /dev/urandom was recommended or something.
16:53:46 <elliott> It was on LWN so it looked authoritative.
16:53:50 <coppro> copumpkin: compare them to the output of a PRNG
16:53:57 <elliott> copumpkin: Magic, I guess. I don't know how randomness or cryptography or anything works.
16:54:01 <shachaf> elliott: For most things urandom is good enough.
16:54:05 <elliott> But I remember hearing something like that.
16:54:12 <copumpkin> coppro: so you discard everything with overwhelming likelihood? :P
16:54:14 <shachaf> copumpkin: The 0 bits are non-random, the 1 bits are random.
16:54:29 <elliott> shachaf: Why are you repeating yourself? I know, and that's what I thought too, but then I heard someone say otherwise and it sounded like that was a common myth or something. I don't know.
16:54:36 <shachaf> The 2 bits you just discard.
16:54:37 <coppro> copumpkin: no, you compare each successive bit and only keep the random ones
16:54:51 <kmc> coming this summer: Myth or Manpage?
16:55:04 <shachaf> elliott: My imperssion was that /dev/urandom is usually recommended for most cryptographic because it's "good enough".
16:55:12 <shachaf> And you really don't want to block in most cases.
16:55:27 <coppro> so if /dev/urandom gives 0010101010110, and a PRNG gives 0101101011010, you know that the random bits are 01010110
16:55:46 <elliott> Anyway I can write to /dev/random here.
16:56:28 <kmc> so it probably takes your bits, but doesn't increment the entropy estimate
16:57:34 <shachaf> Is there some part of the randomness pool that's reserved for particular users?
16:57:40 <shachaf> So that no one can DoS /dev/random
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17:00:33 <shachaf> kmc: I didn't get to sleep all night. :-(
17:01:10 <barts__> shachaf: down five red bulls
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17:04:01 <barts__> shachaf: if you gaze for long into the abyss
17:04:57 <shachaf> barts__: either say yes or say no
17:05:15 -!- atriq has joined.
17:05:43 <barts__> if i don't, will you freeze forever, stuck on blocking input?
17:06:47 <atriq> elliott, is it too late to change my mind about accepting the responsibility of choosing the featured language?
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17:13:07 <ais523> barts__ is definitely cheater, btw
17:13:20 <ais523> no real reason in asking because he/she's just going to dodge the question indefinitely
17:13:53 <kmc> shachaf: why not
17:14:28 <kmc> hey let's all flip out and lose our shit completely because somebody who may or may not be cheater has said three inoffensive things
17:14:42 <kmc> am i winning at #esoteric yet
17:15:12 <elliott> instead we should just let blatant ban evasion be an insult to our intelligence by pretending it's not obvious
17:15:27 * shachaf is not insulted, only amused.
17:15:38 <shachaf> I don't care if cheater is here.
17:15:40 <barts__> i thought this was the channel for whichever subset of ##electronics, #esoteric, and #haskell-blah would put up with me
17:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, ban barts__ if you know he's cheater, he was banned for a reason
17:17:10 <barts__> or did i get that wrong, kmc
17:17:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well he's clearly a past-regular
17:18:04 <atriq> He could be cpressey for all we know
17:18:18 <atriq> (he probably isn't cpressey)
17:18:30 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, where am I connecting from?
17:18:52 <ais523> if we banned cpressey by mistake, thinking he was someone else, it'd be easy to prove his identity and get him unbanned again
17:20:54 <barts__> the max planck instutute *is* in germany
17:20:55 <ais523> bleh, you answered before I figured it out
17:20:57 <ais523> that was so close, too
17:21:06 <atriq> Specifically, Ibiza
17:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought he was connecting from spai and was answering in short form to an earlier query
17:21:40 <ais523> specifically, valencia
17:22:07 <ais523> at least, that's where the ISP reports, it can be inaccurate
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17:22:55 <atriq> La Presidente Hotel, Portinatx, Ibiza
17:23:05 <atriq> If any of you want to stalk me
17:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> we were previously talking about cheater and his blatant ban evasion
17:23:27 <barts__> atriq: spagnolo? parli italiano?
17:23:38 <ais523> atriq: if it's a hotel IP, then the other guests in the hotel have been surprisingly well behaved
17:24:07 <atriq> barts__, tu stinko es
17:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe one of the ops could actually give a damn about channel administration for once
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17:26:10 <atriq> barts__, eres infiel_?
17:27:35 <atriq> Usted no va a responder en Ingls, no se contestar en espaol ...
17:27:47 <atriq> Es casi como si tuviera algo que ocultar.
17:35:39 <barts__> scusa atriq, c'e un problem'?
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17:38:16 <barts__> kmc: oh, excuse-me, kmc, have I misquoted you above ?.
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17:57:31 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
18:01:27 <Jafet> Is that turing complete?
18:03:09 <ais523> barts__: you are indeed still being useless
18:03:13 <ais523> why /shouldn't/ I ban you again
18:03:28 <Arc_Koen> one of the pixels on my screen is MOVING
18:04:57 <ais523> Arc_Koen: are you sure it's a pixel
18:05:01 <ais523> rather than, say, an insect?
18:05:10 <barts__> i made contributions to the esolang wiki.
18:06:03 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
18:06:06 <Arc_Koen> up until I noticed it was moving it was a well-behaved pixel
18:06:30 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Did it change color depending on the contents of your display?
18:06:37 <ais523> barts__: were they useful?
18:06:50 <ais523> also, under what name?
18:06:53 <Arc_Koen> I wasn't paying much attention to it
18:07:10 <barts__> he named his latest language under my suggestion
18:07:26 <Arc_Koen> is that you http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Arc_Koen
18:07:51 <barts__> i just said under what name the latest contribution was
18:07:56 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:08:12 <Arc_Koen> (though http://esolangs.org/wiki/Circlefuck indeed had its name suggested by barts)
18:11:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:13:24 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking about adding an emmental-like instruction-rewriting feature to my circlefuck implementation
18:13:33 <Arc_Koen> then I realized I hadn't implemented it
18:15:21 <barts__> you could then call it "La ronde des fromages"
18:15:31 <barts__> which is "the roundness of the cheese"
18:16:42 <barts__> which plays on your language's topology and where it's derived from.
18:17:16 <barts__> alternatively, "larondedesfromagesfuck".
18:27:12 <Arc_Koen> hey do you guys see any difference between http://esolangs.org/wiki/Braincrash and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbrain ?
18:27:53 <Arc_Koen> appart from the fact that one uses +-><.,[] and the other ><+-.,[]
18:33:31 <ais523> Arc_Koen: this reminds me of BrainFuck
18:33:40 <ais523> or was it just Brainfuck, with a capital B?
18:33:50 <ais523> it's a BF derivative that doesn't change any instructions at all
18:33:55 <ais523> the sort of extreme of pointless BF derivatives
18:41:19 <kmc> there's no i in branfuck
18:45:48 <Jafet> I believe, in fact, that there isn't already an 11-dimensional esolang. Or other sort of language for that matter.
18:47:53 <Jafet> With our patented Planck units, creating programs will be as simple as nailing two-by-fours together. Which is to say it's incredibly error-prone and involves manual work.
18:51:34 <kmc> http://hint.fm/wind/ wow this is pretty
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18:52:30 <coppro> I'm happy I'm not in NY
18:54:41 <Phantom__Hoover> what's the deal with that big turbulent patch north of charlott
18:58:59 <FireFly> Poorly-timed week-long holiday, this
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19:01:06 <FireFly> Rainy and somewhat windy at the moment, though as I've understood it'll get worse during the evening/night
19:01:39 <kmc> are you in NYC?
19:04:04 <kmc> it must suck that there's no subway
19:05:08 <kmc> they shut it down here too (boston)
19:10:26 <Arc_Koen> kmc: your link is incredibly slow to load :(
19:14:04 <zzo38> "The entire execution unit for muxcomp64 would be extremely small, very close to 16K transistors (not gates, transistors)." I want to buy it please.
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19:17:10 <Arc_Koen> hey shouldn't we try something similar to corewar but with esolangs?
19:18:25 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
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19:20:30 <Arc_Koen> hrm http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt
19:38:44 <ais523> Arc_Koen: BF Joust is awesome, you should play it
19:39:31 <Arc_Koen> EgoBot: Score for Arc_Koen_koen_very_unsubtle_1_bfjoust: 0.0
19:40:01 <Arc_Koen> is there something I did not understand? my program was >>>>>>>>>(++>)*21
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20:53:56 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how programmers use the term "Unicode" to mean alternately "non-ASCII", "non-ISO-8859-1", "UTF-8", "UTF-8 but not if any of the bytes are less that 0x80", or (very occasionally) "Unicode"?
20:54:08 <kmc> not if all of the bytes are less than*
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21:00:39 <olsner> it also often refers to one of UCS-2 or UTF-16
21:02:20 <kmc> ah yes, in Windows-land and Java-land
21:02:26 <kmc> places to avoid for sure
21:03:54 <olsner> I guess the worst part is that it usually really means "either UCS-2 or UTF-16", without actually knowing which one
21:05:38 <kmc> I may enjoy being pedantic a little too much but I'm also pretty sure that character encoding is one of those areas where you can either be pedantic or get confused all the time.
21:06:07 <kmc> or not be confused but make software which just doesn't work for people who don't speak English
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21:08:23 <boily> my litmus test when developing is that if japanese goes through without getting garbled, then I shouldn't worry at all about encoding.
21:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> thus efficiently testing only the japanese section of your encoding
21:09:40 <kmc> eh a lot of existing japanese texts are in weird encodings though
21:09:59 <kmc> your software shouldn't be obliged to support EUC-JP or Shift-JIS
21:10:13 <kmc> Japan moreso than other places has not switched over to the glorious Unicode new world order
21:10:23 <kmc> probably because their shit actually kinda worked before
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21:10:30 <barts__> Jafet: Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck × Circlefuck is 11-dimensional.
21:10:33 <kmc> except if you wanted to send files between Windows and UNIX of course
21:10:36 <boily> that's kinda the point.
21:11:16 <olsner> japanese script should be fairly trivial once you decode it though, and character encoding is just the very first little step
21:11:35 <barts__> japan has single houses with 50 and 60 hz installations in 230 and 120V each, all using the same kind of outlet.
21:12:03 <barts__> they're no fans of standards.
21:12:12 <kmc> yeah that's true olsner
21:12:19 <kmc> no joining, no combining characters, no case (!)
21:12:30 <kmc> probably some normalization though
21:12:57 <olsner> there is that han unification thingy
21:12:58 <kmc> barts__: more like the US is no fans of existing standards when we burn down your country and rebuild it
21:13:11 <barts__> unless you define a kanji to be S.
21:13:45 <kmc> for a while there was talk of making Iraq use CDMA
21:13:54 <kmc> i don't think they actually went through with it
21:13:58 <boily> aren't they on thurayya?
21:13:59 <olsner> i.e. sabotage their communications network?
21:14:47 <kmc> it was considered highly scandalous in the USA that some US govt money might go to systems built by COMMUNIST TERRORIST-APPEASING FRANCE AND GERMANY
21:15:08 <kmc> you know back when were were really upset that they tried to talk us out of shooting ourselves in the foot in the most enormous way possible
21:19:13 <barts__> i am 次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次0% sure this can be done in japanese
21:20:18 <barts__> even 次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次次0%
21:20:42 <boily> next-next-next-next-next-0% ?????
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21:21:11 <elliott> but what does that have to do with anything
21:21:13 * boily is confused as usual, and we're definitely not Friday yet.
21:21:31 <olsner> barts__: japeano numbers?
21:22:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
21:22:46 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b barts*!*@*.
21:22:52 -!- ais523 has kicked barts__ User terminated!.
21:23:54 <ais523> I should really change the default kick message
21:24:36 <ais523> originally, a combination of no useful contribution and harassing a subset of channel regulars
21:24:42 <ais523> later on, for ban evasion
21:24:52 <ais523> but he hadn't been here for a while so I wanted to see if he reformed
21:25:25 <ais523> I don't really understand bad trolls
21:25:35 <ais523> good trolling can be entertaining
21:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> and he pretends to be a troll to act like he's totally in charge
21:26:26 <ais523> /I'm/ naturally annoying
21:26:29 <ais523> but I try to suppress it
21:26:34 <ais523> rather than revel in it
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21:26:42 <olsner> you should get "finnished" into the kick message somehow
21:26:55 -!- ais523 has kicked ais523 I don't have a better default kick reason, but if you're being kicked, you should know why.
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21:27:08 <ais523> it's a very ais523 kick reason
21:28:02 <ais523> that makes a good non-default kick reason
21:28:08 <ais523> but it'd only work on someone who knew what it meant
21:29:33 <ais523> (short summary for people who don't know: "hi" as a non sequitur is a threat)
21:29:49 <ais523> (or at least, an indication of disapproval)
21:29:59 <olsner> a threat of what? further conversation?
21:30:34 <ais523> it's not a particularly specific threat
21:30:45 <ais523> I think what it usually threatens is more his
21:31:05 <ais523> and possibly a breach of friendship if the offending behaviour happens too long
21:32:08 <ais523> OK, I think that response makes a decent threat, too
21:32:15 <ais523> specifically, the smiley
21:32:21 <ais523> (yes I know it does that for all unrecognised input)
21:33:44 <olsner> the smiley looks a bit like a lop-eyed zombie coming to embrace and devour you
21:34:24 <olsner> (while repeating hi over and over)
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22:33:00 <Arc_Koen> zombie little girls coming at you saying "Hi. Wanna play with me?" and what your really hear is BRAAAAAAINS
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22:50:55 <olsner> hmm, I wonder if they have or could release macgyver in HD
22:51:21 <olsner> ... not that it would be worth it or anything
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22:57:48 <olsner> imdb does say it was filmed on "Film"
23:03:30 <kmc> shachaf: Apparently Zephyr uses the same "UTF-8 or maybe ISO-8859-1" encoding that's popular on IRC :/
23:04:26 <kmc> I wonder what the prevalence is in ISO-8859 texts of byte sequences that are also valid UTF-8
23:04:29 <kmc> probably pretty low
23:05:08 <kmc> it helps that half (?) of the UTF-8 continuation bytes are unprintable control characters in ISO-8859 (though not in Windows-1252)
23:11:37 <shachaf> kmc: I've never used Zephyr.
23:12:02 <shachaf> Do you have to be at MIT to use it or something? I couldn't work it out once.
23:12:19 <olsner> it might've been better to use the ascii characters for continuation bytes, to make it more obvious when you're mixing encodings the wrong way
23:13:21 <kmc> that would be a bit less stateless though
23:13:49 <kmc> if you land at a random point in a UTF-8 byte stream, you can recover within one character
23:14:09 <kmc> not so if continuation bytes alias with ASCII characters
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23:16:30 <kmc> you're right that UTF-8 being a superset of ASCII makes some problems less obvious though
23:16:40 <kmc> especially for programmers of the "i speak English and it works for me" mindset
23:17:05 <kmc> the people who always feel put-upon when others want "crazy characters"
23:17:06 <shachaf> I don't think UTF-8 would be nearly as common if it didn't have that property.
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23:19:40 <shachaf> kmc: Why can't all those weird people just speak English?
23:19:45 <shachaf> It would solve so many problems.
23:19:57 <shachaf> (When I say "weird people" I mean mathematicians, of course.)
23:20:11 <elliott> shachaf: So did edwardk decide yet?
23:20:20 <shachaf> elliott: I didn't talk to him.
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23:29:41 <kmc> it's hurricaning