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00:07:40 * pikhq translates to Japanese
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00:21:55 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/31/us/2012-sandy-POD-2.html#/?slide=11 Our Lady of the Extension Cord
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00:27:14 <ion> :-D http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/12kce9/apple_resizes_website_so_that_the_samsung_apology/
00:36:37 <elliott> "It is there specifically to get the bottom 310px of the website out of view. Independent of screen resolution."
00:41:12 <elliott> "This code appears in most of Apple's non-US sites, not just the UK site." aw
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01:44:13 <shachaf> It's not everything, but it's something!
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01:47:42 <shachaf> > toListOf (traverse._1) [(1,2),(3,4),(5,6),(7,8)]
01:50:14 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Enum.Enum (f0 b0), GHC.Num.Num (f0 b0))
01:50:25 <elliott> )-------------------------------------------:
01:50:32 <elliott> > both (pure . succ) (1,2)
01:50:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f0 (b0, b0)))
01:50:39 <elliott> > runIdentity $ both (pure . succ) (1,2)
01:50:51 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
01:51:49 <kmc> is that the king of all cosmos?
01:54:18 <ion> :───────────┐
01:54:20 <ion> ┌──────┼───────┬────D
01:54:22 <ion> └──────┘ └────D
01:57:59 <FireFly> ...what exactly is that meant to be?
01:58:47 <olsner> the two-faced smile of ion
02:00:01 <kmc> ion++ for using line drawing characters
02:00:06 <kmc> line drawing characters are the best
02:04:26 <kmc> my terminal font does a really, really bad job with the ♥ character
02:04:30 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/sW4qQ.png
02:04:49 <kmc> i don't think it was always thus
02:05:25 <ion> You should ask for your money back.
02:06:17 <shachaf> What's your terminal and font?
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02:12:44 <kmc> rxvt-unicode -bg black -fg white -fn "x:6x13"
02:13:15 <kmc> sometimes my computer does this thing where it uses up all the ram (?) and then there is weird graphics corruption that doesn't fully go away
02:13:28 <kmc> like not just the framebuffer gets corrupted but various offscreen buffers that programs keep using
02:13:31 <kmc> so maybe this is that
02:13:36 <kmc> or maybe it's the fault of a dist-upgrade
02:13:39 <kmc> or maybe i'm just cursed
02:13:41 <olsner> that's what happens when you fill the bitbucket
02:21:05 <olsner> halp, I'm thinking about watching SG-1 again
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02:24:00 <kmc> is that a good one or no
02:28:01 <shachaf> I like the font "Monospace".
02:28:23 <olsner> i also have a monospace font
02:28:31 <shachaf> I think you can get it in urxvt with -fn 'xft:Monospace'
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02:30:37 <olsner> or by putting "URxvt.font: xft:Terminus:size=8" in .Xdefaults
02:37:11 <kmc> yeah i'll have to look into that
02:37:20 <kmc> i can become one of these droid sans mono evangelists
02:37:36 <kmc> your choice of fonts really says a lot about you as a programmer
02:37:41 <kmc> it can define whether you're a rockstar or more of a ninja
02:37:48 <olsner> yeah, it has to be some obscure unreadable but supposedly-really-good-for-code font
02:38:24 <kmc> "The color camera on Apollo 12 provided a few brief moments of color telecasting before it was inadvertently pointed at the Sun, ending its usefulness."
02:38:56 <kmc> how much money was spent to send this fancy camera to the goddamn moon and then "whoops"
02:39:13 <Bike> hey be fair. the sun is pretty big!
02:39:29 <kmc> it's much bigger up there in space
02:39:55 <olsner> it gets bigger the closer to the sky you get
02:40:11 <kmc> until you hit the bounding box and then you just can't move even though your legs are moving
02:52:10 <FreeFull> shachaf: Monospace is actually an alias to a different font
02:52:26 <FreeFull> It gets you either Bitstream Vera Sans Mono or DejaVu Sans Mono, I don't know which
02:52:39 <Sgeo> There exists a Tcl-Java bridge
02:52:56 <monqy> whats this about??
02:52:59 <Bike> haha, why the fuck?
02:53:03 <Sgeo> Wonder if I can fix it up so that it can interact with Clojure in a more idiomatic way than dealing with the Java objects directly
02:53:10 <Sgeo> http://tcljava.sourceforge.net/docs/website/
02:54:00 <Sgeo> I actually potentially have a use for this thing, although probably writing my own parser for the data in question and just rewriting the code would make more sense
02:54:46 <elliott> Sgeo: by "use" do you mean "thing you will actually use"
02:55:51 <Sgeo> No. I have no real reason to rewrite this project from scratch, in a way that will possibly cause pain for actual user in that a JVM would be needed.
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02:56:10 <kmc> https://twitter.com/fivethirtynate
02:58:01 <Sgeo> Although actually, Tcl and Clojure are both awesome languages.
02:58:06 <Sgeo> (And I have actually used Tcl)
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03:09:38 <shachaf> FreeFull: No, the font is called "Monospace"
03:09:56 <shachaf> That's the name of the font.
03:10:57 <FreeFull> shachaf: Monospace is an alias
03:11:15 <shachaf> MAYBE AN ALIAS FOR "Monospace"
03:11:57 <ion> The “M” stands for “Monospace”.
03:14:28 <shachaf> What does the "onospace" stand for?
03:14:45 <Bike> it's actually a beatles reference
03:15:32 <shachaf> You're a Beatles reference!
03:16:46 <ion> In space, no-one can hear you marry John Lennon.
03:16:48 <Sgeo> Some people in New Jersey might be ... voting by email?
03:17:20 <Bike> i for one support giving our electoral process over to srizbi
03:17:42 <Sgeo> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/03/new-jersey-residents-can-_n_2070016.html
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03:32:53 <shachaf> ion: Man, I should learn Finnish.
03:33:05 <pikhq> shachaf: Learn Japanese and get drunk.
03:33:26 <shachaf> do they have drinking in japan
03:33:35 <ion> shachaf: Noooo, don’t do it
03:33:36 <kmc> great, so they are implementing electronic voting at absolutely the last minute with zero security measures
03:34:10 <kmc> to be fair there is no real security on mail-in ballots
03:34:36 <kmc> and voter fraud is mainly a bullshit issue used by republicans to make it harder for poor people and minorities to vote
03:34:52 <kmc> and NJ won't matter for the presidential election, anyway
03:35:56 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see that nytimes.com thing?
03:36:07 <shachaf> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/11/02/us/politics/paths-to-the-white-house.html
03:37:12 <kmc> yeah, that's cool
03:37:50 <ion> sgeo: Faxes still exist?
03:38:14 <shachaf> If someone claims they have one, you should tell them it's really a faux fax
03:38:19 <ion> shachaf: Why do you think you should learn Finnish?
03:38:44 <shachaf> ion: Because Finnish people should speak Finnish!
03:38:55 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how 70% of the country is completely irrelevant to presidential politics?
03:40:04 <shachaf> kmc: Today I learned about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
03:40:57 <kmc> yeah that is an amusing hack
03:40:59 * pikhq lives in a part that is relevant. Bleh.
03:41:38 <kmc> they're almost halfway there
03:43:43 <kmc> now, what if more states allocated electoral votes per congressional district
03:43:48 <kmc> as ME and NE do
03:43:52 <kmc> would that be good or bad?
03:44:01 <Gregor> That… is such a retarded way to fix the system, but oh well, better than nothing.
03:47:30 <kmc> another option is for states to allocate their EVs proportionally to the statewide popular vote, rather than all-or-nothing
03:47:41 <kmc> neither of those requires a compact or a federal constitutional amendment
03:48:45 <Jafet> Oh, it's November already.
03:49:34 <quintopia> some call it "election month" but i call it nanowrimo
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03:51:59 <kmc> some call it erection month
03:54:17 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that be opposed by whatever the majority of a state is, since they're now not as strongly represented?
03:54:31 <pikhq> Why call it "election month"? The majority of the month is taken up by not-election.
03:55:06 <Sgeo> Post-election month, since most of it is post-election, while the beginning is pre-election?
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04:03:40 <Gregor> Sgeo: Really, it should just be opposed by Republicans, since in each election where the popular vote hasn't matched the electoral vote, they've won ;)
04:04:26 <quintopia> Gregor: but like every electoral trend, that could change in any given year
04:08:43 <shachaf> "an electoral trend could change in any given year" sounds like an electoral trend.
04:08:54 <shachaf> Or is that a metaëlectoral trend, and therefore immune to itself?
04:09:52 <quintopia> you are mistaken in interpreting it as a trend
04:10:47 <quintopia> a trend is "this has always been" while that is just "this might or might not be"
04:11:04 <elliott> i dont think thats what trend means
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04:22:35 <quintopia> feel free to define it as you like
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04:24:19 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:25:19 <Gracenotes> When the server my irssi screen session is on resets, sometimes I forget to join channels
04:26:00 <FreeFull> Why don't you have the channels on autojoin
04:26:08 <Gracenotes> and so went my habit of coming here from I-forget-when.
04:27:02 <Gracenotes> I join so rarely, it doesn't seem worth it >_>
04:28:57 <Gracenotes> well, connect rarely, due to good uptime. in any case, I've made trawls through the wiki here and there when bored :p The only lang I've created was a stack-based lambda calculus interpreter
04:30:45 <kmc> Gregor: i'm not sure if 1824 is a counterexample to what you said or not, it's just that fucked up
04:31:28 <kmc> the candidate with the largest popular vote share and the most electoral votes lost
04:31:35 <kmc> to another candidate from the same party
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04:32:13 <Gregor> Well, yeah, 1824 was just weird.
04:32:54 <kmc> i had forgot about this until just now
04:32:59 <kmc> or maybe i never learned it in the first place
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05:41:41 <shachaf> elliott: jfischoff in #haskell wants to talk about mapping on HLists and things.
05:42:58 <elliott> i dont know much about oleg's definition of hlists
05:47:09 <shachaf> elliott: He spelled your name with one t.
05:47:17 <shachaf> You should give him a new version of the code with a backdoor in it.
05:47:36 <elliott> the backdoor is already in there
05:49:03 <shachaf> elliott: But it's commented out in the most recent version. :-(
05:50:07 <elliott> thats another persons paste
05:50:29 <copumpkin> people seriously need to start standardizing the elliott spellings
05:51:29 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm pretty sure T. S. Eliot already decided on the correct spelling.
05:52:00 <monqy> that's a funny way to spell "right" !
05:58:29 <ion> hi shackhaff
05:59:45 <shachaf> ion: The correct spelling is שחף
06:01:09 <ion> > (unwords . map concat . sequence) [["E"], ["l", "ll"], ["io"], ["t", "tt", "tte"]]
06:01:10 <lambdabot> "Eliot Eliott Eliotte Elliot Elliott Elliotte"
06:01:44 <ion> shachaf: shchf?
06:01:45 <monqy> elliott: how would you like to be "Eliotte"
06:02:11 <shachaf> monqy: if elliott doesn't want to be Eliotte can i be Eliotte
06:07:17 <ion> ‘libtcod, a.k.a. “The Doryen Library”, is a free, fast, portable and uncomplicated API for roguelike developpers providing an advanced true color console, input, and lots of other utilities frequently used in roguelikes.’
06:07:23 <ion> Who wants to developpe roguelikes?
06:07:49 <shachaf> "pushing the roguelike enveloppe"
06:09:12 <monqy> dear roguelike how does it feel to have your envolope pushed??
06:15:39 <ion> My clothes only have single-hole zippers.
07:09:46 <ais523> I think libtcod is mostly useful as a terminal substitute for windows
07:09:53 <ais523> the rest of it seems too disjointed, really
07:11:04 <ais523> also, I think it's hilarious what Apple did with their homepage (designing it to be slightly too tall for the screen no matter what size the screen is, it deliberately adjusts for it and makes itself too large to fit, in order to hide the link to the apology to Samsung)
07:21:02 <elliott> ais523: i like how the judge literally said "samsung's tablets are less cool, so they don't infringe"
07:21:16 <elliott> can't imagine samsung were terrible happy about winning on that account
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08:24:51 <fizzie> ais523: Reportedly it's not too tall "no matter what"; it doesn't actually stretch, just rearranges itself a bit.
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10:55:01 <Vorpal> hm where is elliott when you need him
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10:57:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, I supposed you don't know anything about what god ergonomical keyboards exist?
10:58:20 <Vorpal> that isn't silly ultraflat
10:58:41 <shachaf> I think kmc might know something.
10:58:51 <Vorpal> I was looking at microsoft's keyboard lineup (I really like their mice) but it seems to be all ultra-flat these days
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11:00:33 <Vorpal> shachaf, that maybe looks too ergonomical (Kinesis), seems kind of hard to get used to
11:01:00 <shachaf> I know a few people who use it and like it.
11:01:07 <Vorpal> wouldn't want to buy that without trying it first. And there aren't really any good physical shops around here that would have it.
11:01:23 <Vorpal> that is a bit of an issue
11:01:55 <Jafet> WHO NEEDS GOD WHEN YOU CAN HAVE A MALTRON
11:04:02 <Vorpal> Jafet, why not go for a Datahand while you are at it :P
11:04:34 <Vorpal> anyway, I want something that isn't completely different, I'm not only typing on it. Game keymappings still need to make sense for me. As do emacs keymappings.
11:05:17 <Vorpal> also if the layout is going to be different I would need a reasonable Swedish keymapping for it still
11:07:29 <fizzie> I had one of the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic" line keyboards once -- something like the http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/71/2_27314-358x228.jpeg except few (dozen?) product generations back.
11:07:53 <fizzie> Can't say I liked it terribly much, but keyboards are kind of personal things.
11:09:19 <fizzie> (The one in the image is Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 -- I think the one I had didn't have any numbers.)
11:10:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah the modern ones appear to be ultraflat
11:10:13 <Vorpal> well okay not that one
11:10:19 <Vorpal> I was looking at the curve one
11:10:29 <Vorpal> which is a bit between that and normal keyboards
11:10:35 <Vorpal> I liked the older curve ones
11:11:07 <fizzie> The Comfort Curve 3000 seems kinda flat, yes.
11:12:03 <Vorpal> I used a 2000 at one point, it was kind of slightly flatter than classical keyboards, but not as flat as the 3000 appears
11:12:14 <fizzie> (Some) gamer keyboards look kind of different.
11:12:16 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/97/2_137749-1000x1000.jpeg
11:12:21 <fizzie> That's a lot of buttons.
11:12:55 <Vorpal> don't really need that. All I really need is a comfortable standard keyboard + volume buttons. Anything else I don't really care about
11:13:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the thing in the middle of MS natural?
11:17:47 <Vorpal> uh uh, it has a "nordic" layout too?
11:17:50 <Vorpal> what does that even mean
11:19:51 <Vorpal> okay, from that photo it even appears to be an US layout, guess they used stock photo
11:20:04 <Vorpal> would have to call them to make sure it is actually correct before I buy it
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11:20:43 <Vorpal> not going to buy a keyboard without a large enter key
11:21:00 <FreeFull> Instead I have a tiny leftshift :D
11:21:56 <FreeFull> To make space for \| between left shift and z
11:22:05 <ion> Can one access I²C devices asynchronously using the Linux API?
11:23:04 <Vorpal> ion, async in what way?
11:23:33 <ion> vorpal: Tell it to start doing something, block in poll()/select(), then read the result.
11:23:38 <Vorpal> if so couldn't you just create a thread to handle the request for you and have that notify you async
11:23:55 <Vorpal> but yeah I have no idea if it supports it
11:24:02 <Vorpal> and what happen if you try it
11:24:10 <ion> Yeah, using threads is an alternative.
11:25:06 <ion> It supports read() for a subset of the functionality: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/i2c/dev-interface
11:25:40 <ion> Namely, the equivalent of i2c_smbus_read_byte.
11:26:24 <ion> But i’d like to be able to use the full API asynchronously.
11:28:01 <Vorpal> ion, what sort of device are you interfacing with?
11:28:24 <fizzie> It's a scroll wheel, yes.
11:28:49 <ion> An accelerometer, a magnetometer, a gyroscope, a barometer and a temperature sensor.
11:29:05 <fizzie> (The version I had had no wheels.)
11:29:12 <ion> Oh, and another pressure sensor with a pitot tube.
11:29:17 <ion> An RC airplane.
11:29:48 <Vorpal> ion, yeah I could guess when you mentioned pitot tube :P
11:31:01 <Vorpal> upgrading ubuntu 10.04 to 12.04.1 on a laptop here, there is always something that goes wrong isn't it. This time lsb_release stopped working partway through the upgrade and the upgrade process is spewing warnings as a result, still seem to work
11:31:28 <Vorpal> mojabake error dialog showed up. With two mojabake buttons
11:31:33 <Vorpal> I have no idea what that is for
11:45:40 <Jafet> The change in version number represents how many things have been replaced for no reason
11:46:29 <Vorpal> Jafet, which is why I'm doing this upgrade on an old, otherwise unused, laptop first.
11:46:50 <Vorpal> to see how much time I will need to set aside to clean up the mess when I do it on this modern laptop
11:47:08 <Vorpal> well, reasonably modern laptop anyway
11:47:43 <Jafet> Upgrading ubuntu: echo deb ftp.debian.org/debian sid main > /etc/apt/sources.list
11:48:40 <Jafet> (You will need to use the Terminal for that. Open the Terminal from the Start Menu. I mean the App Launcher.)
11:50:20 <Vorpal> Jafet, I'm going to convert it into xubuntu after the upgrade anyway
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11:55:22 <Jafet> fizzie: a new animal every time!
11:56:35 <fizzie> There's the Ubuntu Satanic Edition.
11:59:43 <fizzie> The Suse Ubuntu Archmint Genfedoratoo Linux.
12:00:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, with the SlackDebGoboWare package manager?
12:01:35 <fizzie> It installs package.rpm.deb.tar.gz.xz.bz2 files.
12:02:51 <Jafet> > "apt portage" \\ " ott"
12:03:23 <fizzie> "apprage" sounds like the best package manager ever.
12:04:00 <fizzie> "Like the "Deb" part of the term Debian, it originates from the name of Debra, then girlfriend and now ex-wife of Debian's founder Ian Murdock." <- Heh, I did not know that.
12:04:45 <fizzie> Must be a nice reminder these days.
12:04:56 <Jafet> Think about that the next time you unpack a deb file.
12:06:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: anagram: not found
12:08:44 <Jafet> The next step in linux evolution
12:11:03 <FreeFull> `alias echo='echo $( echo )'; echo Test
12:11:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: alias: not found
12:11:28 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
12:12:08 <quintopia> FreeFull: abbreviated, it looks like a gene
12:12:38 <FreeFull> quintopia: Three letters for one aminoacid though
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12:34:48 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
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12:35:11 <lambdabot> "12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940414...
12:35:35 <FreeFull> > "0.0" ++ concat $ map show [1..]
12:35:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
12:35:44 <FreeFull> > "0.0" ++ (concat $ map show [1..])
12:35:46 <lambdabot> "0.012345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940...
12:36:14 <FreeFull> Look ma, an irrational number!
12:36:45 <Jafet> > [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
12:36:48 <lambdabot> "27182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303...
12:40:15 <quintopia> i dont take orders, but feel free to explain your sudden hostility
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16:30:06 <Vorpal> unity of gnome 3, which is the most screwed up GUI of the two? Hard to decide
16:30:25 <fizzie> "Unity of Gnome 3" sounds fancy.
16:30:33 <fizzie> Also like a royal title.
16:31:00 <fizzie> All kneel for His Highness Unity of Gnome 3.
16:32:14 <Vorpal> unity runs like shit on the laptop I'm upgrading to 12.04 anyway
16:32:24 <Vorpal> Pentium M with 512 MB RAM so not surprised
16:33:02 <fizzie> In 12.10 with LLVMPipe I'm sure it'd be BLAZING FAST.
16:33:25 <kmc> is lubuntu ubuntu for losers?
16:33:30 <FreeFull> I'm considering switching to dwm
16:33:59 <fizzie> Why are three leds of the switch blinking if I'm downloading a file? Two I'd get.
16:34:44 <nortti> kmc: it is ubuntu with lxde
16:35:17 <fizzie> Is there an Enlightenment-Ubuntu too? Enbuntu?
16:35:45 <kmc> fizzie: you forgot about the NSA intercept port
16:35:54 <FreeFull> It's just a bunch of different things put together
16:37:09 <FreeFull> Ok, half of it was written for it
16:37:24 <fizzie> I remember running Enlightenment... E14? Something like that. It was very impressive-looking.
16:37:31 <fizzie> Compared to fvwm95 anyway.
16:37:33 <olsner> I "like" how unity by default comes with 7 out of 10 icons being open office and the rest being pretty much indistinguishable other useless stuff
16:37:40 <olsner> except the magic button for accessing everything else
16:37:44 <Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: use lubuntu <-- uh... LXDE?
16:37:51 <fizzie> http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif SO HOT
16:37:56 <Vorpal> haven't tried that for years, but eh, didn't like it back then
16:37:57 <olsner> (i.e. useful, but still indistinguishable)
16:38:27 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway the only reason I upgrade that laptop is so I can figure out all the issues before I upgrade my modern laptop
16:38:52 <Vorpal> nortti, other than that it is just used when I need a serial port
16:39:52 <fizzie> Incidentally, couldn't manage to convince pulseaudio (via pavucontrol) to make the laptop to mute the internal speakers while at the same time keeping the optical s/pdif jack unmuted.
16:40:35 <fizzie> Fortunately the volume control doesn't (naturally) affect the s/pdif stream, so I could just turn the volume REAL LOW (but not quite to 0, that muted both) so that the internal speakers were inaudible.
16:40:42 <fizzie> Such an elegant solution.
16:41:41 <nortti> pulseaudio - makes even alsa look good
16:41:43 <ion> http://youtu.be/5Ro9yu6Jces?t=2m33s
16:42:13 <kmc> fuck pulseaudio
16:42:52 <ion> A lot of its functionality belongs in the kernel, but despite that my experiences with it have been positive.
16:43:27 <olsner> ah, http://toastytech.com/guis/ubuntu114dash.png
16:43:36 <kmc> of course you do nortti
16:44:08 <nortti> I have never had any problems with it
16:44:53 <olsner> only 3 OOo icons, but 5 mysterious ones, plus the "home" thing that you somehow have to figure out is the way to access anything else
16:44:54 <ion> You can *gasp* add and remove favorite programs to/from the sidebar.
16:45:53 <fizzie> My experiences with PA have been really bland. It's worked well enough, and I like the way I can easily route different streams to different outputs without trying to figure out each program's well-hidden audio device configuration method, but sometimes there's things like the aforementioned.
16:46:00 <olsner> I guess the gods have deliberated and decided that the only things ubuntu systems are really used for is spreadsheets, presentations, and whatever the big "U" thing is
16:46:17 <fizzie> olsner: It's Ubuntu One, I'm pretty sure.
16:46:25 <olsner> yes, whatever that is :)
16:46:26 <fizzie> olsner: See, it has a little "1" inside the U.
16:46:28 <ion> olsner: What would be the better set of defaults?
16:46:58 <olsner> ion: dunno, I think the big problem is that everything else is hidden
16:48:03 <ion> The home thing is an equally big button on the top of the sidebar nowadays. That’s an old screenshot.
16:48:37 <ion> Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png
16:49:05 <fizzie> Is it, these days? I thought they got rid of that in 8.
16:49:19 <ion> Is “everything” hidden in OSX because it’s available from one of the buttons in the bottom panel? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/empty/macosx102.png
16:49:48 <Vorpal> <ion> Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png <-- what happened there?
16:50:07 <ion> http://windows7themes.net/wp-content/gallery/windows-8-screenshots/Windows_8_screenshot.png
16:50:33 <Vorpal> ion, that isn't metro though
16:50:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's no such thing as Metro nowdays either.
16:51:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, whatever they changed the name to then
16:51:26 <fizzie> Or possibly "Windows 8".
16:51:57 <nortti> wasn't it "Windows 8 style user experience" ?
16:52:03 <fizzie> Or "Microsoft design language" in place of "Metro design language".
16:52:04 <olsner> I think a row of icons without text or a search box are both really bad ways to find stuff
16:52:10 <olsner> ... what both the start menu and mac's application thingy have (last time I checked) is that they give you a big list/grid of everything you can do
16:52:44 <fizzie> AIUI, it's "Start screen" now, and it's full of "tiles".
16:53:23 <fizzie> Some of the tiles are also "live".
16:53:29 <fizzie> (They're "made of people"?)
16:53:39 <ion> You get the big list and the search box by clicking on the big Ubuntu logo on the top. There are tooltips for everything in the vertical panel.
16:54:25 <fizzie> There's also a Charms bar in 8.
16:54:34 <fizzie> "Start. Get to your Start screen. Or if you're already on Start, you can use this charm to go back to the last app you were in."
16:54:55 <ion> I don’t see text in the OSX dock or the Windows quick launcher either.
16:55:39 <ion> Nor do they contain a search bar.
16:56:48 -!- elliott has joined.
16:56:59 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:57:40 <Vorpal> elliott, keyboard recommendations? I need a new one. Something ergonomic and not ultra flat. Nothing crazy like the data hand though :P
16:58:06 <elliott> Vorpal: depends what you mean by ergonomic & your budget
16:58:50 <elliott> Vorpal: however take a look at http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm
16:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, budget, up to approx 150 USD or so. Not a sharp line
16:59:01 <elliott> Vorpal: they use cherry brown switches
16:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, and ergonomic: my hands must stop hurting, they are hurting from the temp keyboard I'm using atm
16:59:24 <elliott> well at least the advantage ones do
16:59:36 <elliott> i hear good only things about them but haven't used them mind you
16:59:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so something that means your wrists can be straight lines. I really liked the old MS Comfort Curve keyboards, but the modern one appears to be ultra flat
16:59:59 <kmc> kinesis advantage is great
17:00:01 <olsner> ion: true, the quick launchers don't have text on any os ... but the menu/thing you get to display all applications is usually useful in !unity :)
17:00:12 <olsner> whereas unity apparently requires me to Search for whatever I want (and I won't know exactly what it's called until after I find it)
17:00:13 <Vorpal> kmc, issue: game keybindings appear to be weird on that
17:00:19 <Vorpal> kmc, also how long does it take to get used ot
17:00:23 <kmc> not very long
17:00:32 <elliott> Vorpal: that's the one i linked btw
17:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it is loading
17:00:51 <kmc> if your hands hurt and you use qwerty i also suggest switching to a better layout
17:00:52 <elliott> they sell an "advanced" "reprogrammable" version but i suspect it does nothing you cannot do more easily in software
17:00:54 <kmc> that will take longer
17:01:09 <elliott> nortti: btw model m is pretty much ergonomically terrible
17:01:21 <Vorpal> kmc, possible, but my hands never hurt with qwerty except on straight traditional keyboards.
17:01:53 <kmc> well i'd say it all matters
17:01:59 <kmc> maybe you only need one or the other change
17:02:02 <kmc> but both could be better long-term
17:02:21 <Vorpal> kmc, since I'm really wide at the shoulders, the small keyboard area of a traditional PC keyboard basically means I need to angle my wrists quite a bit
17:02:29 <Vorpal> which is why a curved keyboard is better
17:02:29 <kmc> i had this experience of changing one thing, and then my hands would eventually start to hurt again, and repeat
17:02:44 <ion> olsner: The per-category installed applications browser isn’t *that* bad, but i admit it could be better.
17:02:46 <kmc> also look out for awkwardly placed keys that you use often
17:02:51 <kmc> that's one great thing about the kinesis
17:03:01 <elliott> if kinesis sold an advantage keyboard with topre switches i'd buy it
17:03:05 <elliott> it'd cost like $9999999 though
17:03:12 <olsner> ion: maybe it is, but I haven't seen it... how do you find it?
17:03:21 <kmc> Vorpal: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg note the two thumb clusters
17:03:29 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway the advantage is $299 rather than $150 though maybe you can get a deal on it somewhere or buy a second-hand one
17:03:35 <kmc> those have ctrl, alt, backspace, delete, home, end, enter, space, etc
17:03:50 <elliott> Vorpal: i seriously doubt you will find a keyboard that (a) has good switches and (b) a non-traditional layout for cheap though
17:03:56 <kmc> though e.g. i had to bind a second escape key
17:03:59 <kmc> cause i use vim
17:04:10 <kmc> i recently learned about https://github.com/alols/xcape which lets you use capslock as ctrl and capslock as esc at the same time
17:04:20 <kmc> maybe i'll switch over to that
17:04:21 <Vorpal> kmc, two questions: have you used it with 1) emacs 2) various modern games?
17:04:22 <elliott> btw if anyone ever has lots of money
17:04:34 <kmc> not much of either
17:04:45 <elliott> kinesis seems pretty good for emacs
17:04:56 <elliott> ctrl and alt are on opposite sides
17:05:00 <ion> olsner: Click on the applications tab in the dash or hit Windows-A and select “Filter results” if it’s not open already.
17:05:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I can go higher than $150 sure
17:05:02 <kmc> another example, on my laptop keyboard there's this awkward 3-key combination i hit all the time
17:05:10 <kmc> and i'm trying to train myself to use the opposite hand for one of the keys (shift)
17:05:21 <kmc> you just have to pay attention to that stuff
17:05:21 <Vorpal> elliott, one issue is that how will I know without trying it
17:05:27 <kmc> learn hjkl for vim instead of using arrow keys
17:05:30 <Vorpal> not a lot of keyboard shops around here
17:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, could be costly thus
17:05:51 <ion> FWIW, this is what i see when i hit the Windows™ key or click on the top button in the launcher. It displays the recent applications and files and focuses in the search bar. http://i.imgur.com/VX74S.jpg
17:05:56 <elliott> Vorpal: you could sell it on ebay or something
17:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, if I knew I would like it I wouldn't hesitate to spend $700, but...
17:06:02 <FreeFull> Arrow keys work while in insert mode though
17:06:04 <kmc> what's $700?
17:06:08 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah
17:06:11 <kmc> so i still use them sometimes
17:06:15 <elliott> datahand is over $700 i think
17:06:18 <elliott> but Vorpal was just using a hyperbolic figure
17:06:21 <kmc> oh, i thought you meant the kinesis advantage
17:06:24 <kmc> which is like $250
17:06:26 <elliott> kmc: do you know about the datahand
17:06:26 <kmc> which is still crazy
17:06:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I would like datahand though
17:06:38 <kmc> oh yeah this thing
17:06:41 <elliott> kmc: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8559/dhhandinunitof2.jpg
17:06:44 <olsner> ion: oh, but that's the search thingy, is that the same as the applications tab?
17:06:48 <elliott> you flick really light magnetic switches to type
17:07:25 <ion> olsner: It’s the button next to the activated home button in the bottom of the windowish thingy. Windows™-A opens it directly.
17:07:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it is very good for playing an FPS with though. Which I sometimes do.
17:07:47 <ion> olsner: Hold down the Windows™ key to see the list of keyboard shortcuts.
17:08:00 <Vorpal> elliott, what about MS natural keyboards?
17:08:09 <Vorpal> I don't know anything about the modern ones
17:08:10 <kmc> Vorpal: how you sit and where your keyboard is are also super important
17:08:20 <kmc> but i don't know much about that
17:08:21 <elliott> Vorpal: here are videos of crazy people using a kinesis advantage https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kinesis+advantage
17:09:22 <ion> I want DataHand <http://youtu.be/_rzFqEqzhmA>, but it’s insanely expensive.
17:09:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure it can be good if you get used to it, but it is a expensive investment and I'm not purely a typist, so it still need to work for other stuff, such as playing games.
17:09:52 <olsner> ion: hmm, so unity could've avoided most of my rage just by making a different tab of the search thingy open by default?
17:10:09 <kmc> i work at a 7 person company and we have 2 people with the kinesis advantage keyboard
17:10:18 <kmc> and the other guy (not me) has the foot pedals as well
17:10:27 <ion> olsner: Perhaps. I’ve been happy with the default.
17:10:29 <Vorpal> kmc, what do the foot pedals do?
17:10:38 <kmc> you can map them to any keypress or macro
17:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: well kinesis advantage is just a regular keyboard with a gap... I guess it is bad if you have a game whose shortcuts spill over to the right hand side but you could just rebind those?
17:10:53 <Vorpal> kmc, hey I already have some Saitek rudder pedals
17:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't seen any ergonomic-as-in-curved-a-bit keyboards with good switches
17:11:08 <kmc> maybe i should build a crazy foot keyboard to one-up him
17:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't rebind everything usually. Look at minecraft for example, can't rebind 1-0 for quick slots
17:11:41 <elliott> Vorpal: kinesis sell other keyboards: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/max-spec.htm http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle2.htm but idk what switches they use
17:11:55 <elliott> well you can rebind things at the OS level if nothing else
17:12:16 <elliott> or buy the reprogrammable ~kinesis advantage pro~ for only $359! but wait, there's more!!
17:12:22 <Vorpal> "The award winning Kinesis Maxim adjustable ergonomic computer keyboard is the only ergonomic keyboard licensed to use the Microsoft "combo" USB/PS2 technology" <-- lol what
17:13:05 <kmc> shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now
17:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hrrm, no numpads? oh well
17:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: numpads are awful anyway :p
17:13:23 <kmc> i have the advantage pro but it wasn't $359
17:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, except for nethack ;)
17:13:45 <kmc> my #1 complaint with the kinesis is no nipple pointer
17:13:58 <Vorpal> kmc, a track point would have been nice yes
17:14:32 <nortti> 19:13 < kmc> shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now // I am building one
17:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway since I would need to learn to touch type again with something like the advantage... can you get them with Swedish layouts?
17:15:11 <kmc> yeah i started building one too
17:15:25 <kmc> ideally i would mold clay or something to match the resting shape of my hands
17:15:43 <Vorpal> kmc, so a home built datahand?
17:16:00 <FreeFull> Keyboard layouts are fully OS-dependent, as long as the keys have all the right shape
17:16:14 <kmc> for starters the resting shape would be gripping a vertical rod, not flat horizontally
17:16:28 <kmc> but it would be a chording keyboard, not a datahand type
17:16:40 <kmc> just a single switch for each finger
17:16:49 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt you can get them with other layouts but you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard if you are learning to touch type anyway :P
17:17:09 <Vorpal> elliott, useful to learn where the key is at all I guess
17:17:10 <FreeFull> I want one of those keyboards with blank keycaps
17:17:24 <elliott> Vorpal: i really doubt the adjustment period is that bad, though... if not for the space between the two sides it would just be a regular keyboard with a slope
17:17:37 <elliott> FreeFull: don't buy a das keyboard
17:17:53 <kmc> but it makes you a real ninja rockstar
17:18:02 <nortti> kmc: you won't have enought combos for alphabet+numbers
17:18:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the stuff under the thumbs is different but eh
17:18:24 <elliott> you can buy label-less replacement keycaps from places
17:18:38 <Vorpal> kmc, where is alt on the advantage?
17:18:39 <nortti> kmc: ah. you are making 2 hand one?
17:18:43 <FreeFull> Switching keycaps around would be a pain
17:18:43 <kmc> nortti: it would be, yeah
17:18:51 <elliott> Vorpal: clear solution is to switch to colemak simultaneously
17:19:02 <kmc> well maybe one hand, plus another hand that is basically a mouse or trackball but has a few other keyboard modifiers
17:19:04 <elliott> FreeFull: less of a pain than typing on a keyboard as low-quality as das keyboard
17:19:13 <FreeFull> My only requirement is that the keyboard is the standard big-enter layout
17:19:17 <elliott> well it's better-quality than your average rubber dome probably but it's really bad
17:19:30 <kmc> Vorpal: it's on the thumb cluster
17:19:31 <kmc> one of them
17:19:37 <kmc> mine are all remapped
17:19:50 <kmc> actually i think alt isn't but i don't use it very much
17:19:51 <elliott> i think i would be unable to use an advantage because my hands are too small and i wouldn't be able to use the thumb bits
17:19:52 <FreeFull> I used to have a model m but it broke
17:20:10 <kmc> my housemate has a pckeyboard model m successor
17:20:13 <kmc> it's really really loud
17:20:20 <nortti> kmc: I am building 1 handed one with state 2 state switch keys that thumb can access
17:20:24 <kmc> he is one floor above me right now and it sounds like machine gun fire
17:20:31 <elliott> i think model m is overrated
17:20:36 <elliott> the switches are way too heavy
17:20:36 <kmc> i had one for a while
17:20:46 <kmc> first an original m and then a pckeyboard one
17:20:51 <nortti> model m is nice but not as nice as some say
17:21:04 <kmc> they feel satisfying to use but they aren't really ergonomic in any sense
17:21:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so if I would go for something that wasn't such a huge investment, what about a MS natural keyboard, they are certainly cheaper. And the older models at least were quite comfortable
17:21:38 <Vorpal> what sort of key caps do they have
17:21:58 <kmc> DIM a From 1 To 10
17:22:23 <kmc> anyway yeah i think having a good chair and desk is at least as important as having a good keyboard
17:22:42 <kmc> but i fail at these things
17:22:43 <elliott> Vorpal: aren't those rubber dome
17:22:51 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what I'm wondering
17:22:55 <elliott> i can't really in good conscience recommend a rubber dome keyboard even though i'm typing on one right now
17:23:07 <Vorpal> I still think microsoft make the best mice, well traditional mice at least. Never liked trackballs and such
17:23:27 <kmc> i'm typing on a thinkpad keyboard right now, which is a scissor mechanism above a rubber dome
17:23:34 <kmc> they're pretty good as far as laptop keyboards go
17:23:39 <FreeFull> Vorpal: microsoft mice are just rebranded logitech mice
17:24:00 <kmc> i hear the new one (island layout) is also very good, but i am fearful that they've screwed it all up massively
17:24:04 <Vorpal> FreeFull, hm, pretty sure they use a different outer shell too?
17:24:14 <kmc> however it's true that the internal mechanism of the "classic" keyboard did change all the time
17:24:19 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php this uses cherry switches apparentlt
17:24:30 <kmc> btw fuck colemak
17:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, lol, that looks crazy
17:24:45 <kmc> what's the point of being 50% qwerty
17:24:49 <kmc> you still need to relearn how to type
17:24:51 <elliott> kmc: thats not the design goal of colemak
17:24:55 <kmc> and dvoark is more standard, it's in every OS
17:24:58 <kmc> oh, what is it then
17:25:01 <Vorpal> FreeFull, the logitech mice I used haven't been nearly as good as my "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000"
17:25:14 <Vorpal> FreeFull, which Logitech mouse is that based on then
17:25:17 <kmc> elliott: looking at that trulyergonomic keyboard makes me feel like i'm drunk
17:25:33 <nortti> does anyone know how to use one handed dvorak on linux?
17:25:47 <elliott> kmc: well "easy to learn for qwerty typers" is one of the goals I think but I hear it actually fares better than Dvorak
17:25:49 <elliott> e.g. "According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models."
17:26:02 <kmc> interesting
17:26:09 <elliott> kmc: also one of the reasons for the qwerty closeness is to make common computer shortcuts less awful to type compared to dvorak it seems
17:26:20 <elliott> (note that that quote is from the colemak site so it's obviously biased but i don't see any reason the study itself (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/) would be biased)
17:26:49 <elliott> http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layout.3F
17:27:00 <elliott> if i switched from qwerty it would probably be to colemak
17:27:04 <elliott> i doubt i can be bothered any time soon though
17:27:09 <kmc> is this carpalx thing based on actual science (e.g. human physiology)
17:27:42 <kmc> or is it one of those "i'm a programmer therefore i must be an expert in all fields" things
17:27:49 <Deewiant> kmc: RTFA http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_evaluation
17:28:01 <kmc> i was looking for that
17:28:19 <kmc> so where are the citations
17:28:24 <elliott> http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?worst_layout
17:28:57 <FreeFull> The only word that's awkward for me to type on a qwerty keyboard is qwerty itself
17:28:59 <kmc> elliott: so that FAQ does say "The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY."
17:29:33 <kmc> 'Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky.' what? i hit that key with the ring finger
17:29:33 <elliott> right but then it says other things
17:29:37 <kmc> using the pinky would be absurd
17:29:42 <kmc> maybe for people with much smaller hands
17:30:23 <elliott> advantages of colemak: you can type "arse" on the home row
17:30:42 <kmc> "'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards." so? f is an uncommon key
17:30:47 <kmc> something will be hard to hit
17:30:57 <kmc> elliott: i can type shithead
17:31:35 <kmc> anyway i don't doubt that colemak has some advantages (and dvorak some) but i've never seen anything to outweigh the fact that dvorak is already installed on most computers in the world and i can sit down and switch to it with 15 seconds of effort
17:32:25 <FreeFull> elliott: But on a qwerty you can type arse with your left hand
17:32:31 <nortti> why is it so hard to find info how to use one-handed dvorak on linux?
17:33:09 <FreeFull> nortti: Because not many people do that maybe
17:33:11 <pikhq> It's not like using my pinky for typing is excessive stress.
17:34:13 <kmc> so yeah this carpalx thing has a big complicated model, with zero citations to any existing literature or any empirical studies of the suitability of that model
17:34:17 <kmc> why are programmers so bad at science
17:34:48 <pikhq> Programmers have this idea that if you can measure it, you should optimize it.
17:34:57 <kmc> but they can't measure it!
17:35:00 <pikhq> And damn the notion that you need to optimize things you actually want to be optimal.
17:35:07 <FreeFull> kmc: How big is your sample of programmers?
17:35:09 <kmc> i mean, they are measuring some completely pulled-out-of-ass thing
17:35:11 <kmc> FreeFull: c.c
17:35:19 <pikhq> Whether or not the metric is relevant is not necessary. :)
17:35:32 <pikhq> We have a metric, now to optimize for it.
17:35:45 <Deewiant> Nobody wants the optimal solution, the most optimized solution is where it's at.
17:35:53 <Deewiant> I.e. the one which took longest to optimize.
17:36:08 <kmc> bonus points if you use something fancy like genetic algorithm even where a simple gradient descent would suffice
17:36:17 <elliott> apparently this guy invented port knocking
17:36:32 <kmc> it's a fine idea that i'm sure many people have thought of
17:38:35 <kmc> when i was young i coded a GA in Perl to figure out how to most efficiently burn all my pirated music and tv shows onto CD-Rs
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17:40:58 <olsner> hmm, this datahand thing - is it actually a good idea to minimize hand/finger movement?
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17:44:16 <Deewiant> CD-Rs didn't appear until the late 80s, and burners cost thousands of dollars until the mid-90s
17:47:06 <FreeFull> Right now people just buy a bunch of 3TB HDDs and put everything on them
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18:21:30 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:25:20 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah i just bought 6 of those
18:26:50 <kmc> it does seem extravagent but having random access to everything without thinking is pretty useful
18:27:53 <kmc> yeah i used CD-Rs because i was a kid and didn't have money for extravagences like DVD burning
18:27:58 <kmc> but i did get a DVD burner eventually
18:28:25 <kmc> also i had an MP3-CD player
18:29:33 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I only have two eSATA ports though
18:30:19 <kmc> you can get external enclosures that use multiple drives and plug into a single eSATA port
18:30:33 <kmc> MP3-CD players were the best
18:30:51 <kmc> at a time when a nice flash-based MP3 player had 64MB of storage
18:30:53 <pikhq> Funnily enough, I have never owned a DVD burner.
18:31:07 <pikhq> I own a late 90s CD burner still. I use it maybe once a year, if not less.
18:31:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have one in my current computer
18:31:18 <fizzie> We used to go over to Tallinn to buy DVD-R's; a lot cheaper there, partially due to them not having this extra tax-like "renumeration for private copying" price they add to all empty media, and I think hard drives and such too these days.
18:31:18 <kmc> you could fit 10x that on a CD-R that cost 50¢
18:31:21 <Vorpal> and a DVD-RAM device in my laptop
18:31:26 <pikhq> It still *works* is the amazing bit.
18:31:28 <Vorpal> FreeFull, hm that would work
18:31:46 <kmc> fizzie: did they sell them duty-free on the ferry
18:31:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, but what about DVD reader?
18:32:10 <pikhq> Yes, I have a DVD-ROM drive.
18:32:47 <pikhq> And I mostly use the DVD drive for CD ripping. (what, so I like FLAC)
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18:33:00 <fizzie> kmc: Sadly, not that I know; you had to go to a shop on land. (We went to some really obscure "abandoned warehouse"-style-atmosphere place someone had heard of.)
18:34:01 <kmc> we had this really sketchy traveling computer show in Iowa that would set up shop for a week in the livestock showing barn at the faregrounds
18:34:08 <fizzie> I have about 80% unused of the last stack of 50 "PRINCO" brand DVD-R's I got there.
18:35:26 <kmc> also Iowa LAN parties were great
18:35:45 <kmc> because people would come from all over the state, from rural places that had really crappy dial-up or satellite Internet
18:35:49 <kmc> so they would come to play games
18:36:01 <kmc> but they would *also* come to run KaZaA in the background at full speed
18:36:17 <kmc> downloading as much warez and porn as possible over 24 hours
18:36:28 <kmc> and share it locally as well
18:37:20 <fizzie> Downloading lots of stuff was quite a large part of the Assembly experience too, back before broadband days. Nowadays it's just not so exciting. :/
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18:40:23 <fizzie> The ones I've been to don't exactly have much qualifications for participation, except for having enough money for the ticket.
18:40:38 <fizzie> So it doesn't sound like it should be a problem.
18:41:44 <FreeFull> Getting there in the first place would be the problem for me
18:43:30 <fizzie> Where did you live again? Sweden?
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18:54:05 <fizzie> For the record, the "copying-renumeration-tax" for a single DVD is 0.60 EUR; that's kind of much when the actual price is something like 0.20 EUR/disc. (Price calculated from the first 100-disc spindle from newegg; is perhaps representative.)
19:02:07 <kmc> wow, that is outrageous
19:02:13 <kmc> i didn't know they had that in not-US
19:02:20 <kmc> but it makes sense because the US writes copyright law for the rest of the world
19:03:38 <fizzie> We started it in 1984; the US apparently in 1992.
19:03:44 <fizzie> (And Germany in 1960s.)
19:03:48 <kmc> with tape??
19:04:09 <fizzie> Yes, it used to be called "kasettimaksu".
19:04:21 <kmc> home taping is killing music!
19:04:27 <fizzie> Applied to C cassettes and VHS tapes, I believe.
19:05:21 <fizzie> Currently in Finland it also applies to just regular external USB HDs, no matter what you're going to be storing there; 9 EUR for 50-250 GB; 12 EUR for 250-1000 GB; 18 EUR for > 1 TB.
19:05:24 <kmc> you're gonna go far
19:05:42 <kmc> you're gonna fly high, you're never gonna die you're gonna make it if you try they're gonna *love* you
19:05:45 <fizzie> (But it does not apply if you buy a external USB HD chassis and a regular SATA drive separately.)
19:05:47 <Deewiant> fizzie: Re. the DVDs: fi.wikipedia says the tax is 74% of the price
19:06:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think they've changed the numbers; those are from 2007.
19:06:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: The 0.60 EUR/disc came from http://www.tulli.fi/fi/suomen_tulli/julkaisut_ja_esitteet/kasikirjat/rajoituskasikirja/liitetiedostot/hyvitysmaksu.pdf that's dated December 2011.
19:07:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's correct, the 2007 bit is just for the price of the disc without the tax
19:08:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: The latest is http://www.hyvitysmaksu.fi/teosto/hymysivut.nsf/0/0f085260b8604de9c22573b1003c22ec/$FILE/Asetus2012_FI.pdf and it too says 0.60 EUR per disc.
19:08:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Unlike fi.wikipedia, which claims 0.73.
19:08:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: It says "arvonlisäveroineen", and 0.6 * 1.22 is ~0.73
19:08:41 <pikhq> atriq: I'm with kmc on this.
19:08:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh; right, then.
19:09:04 <elliott> atriq: why do you have a cigar
19:09:07 <Deewiant> fizzie: Although shouldn't it be 1.23 these days? In which case it's off by a cent
19:09:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think it should, yes.
19:09:20 <Deewiant> Unless they're rounding down; whatever
19:09:33 <fizzie> Maybe it's not all that important.
19:09:42 <Deewiant> In any case, the non-tax price of a disc is probably lower so it's probablby more than 74% these days.
19:10:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: As mentioned, my first hit for a 100-disc spindle from abroad was 0.20 EUR/disc. I'm sure you could find cheaper too.
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19:11:25 <fizzie> (Or 24.99 USD / 100 discs, to be exact; it maps to something pretty close.)
19:11:33 <atriq> elliott, ironic birthday present
19:11:42 <fizzie> atriq: Sometimes it's just a cigar.
19:12:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: They cite (a broken link to) mbnet's hintaseuranta, which would probably have a bit higher price due to the cost of importing. (I don't know how they found a tax-free price there, though.)
19:12:45 <pikhq> Is atriq a tee-totaller?
19:12:49 <olsner> does the box say it's actually a pipe?
19:12:49 <elliott> fizzie: do they have computers in Finland
19:13:07 <atriq> pikhq, nah, I just don't like the smell of tobacco
19:13:10 <fizzie> elliott: I've heard there's, like, five.
19:13:18 <pikhq> elliott: No, they have konnpyuuta.
19:13:22 <kmc> 'irony' means "bad ideas done on purpose" these days
19:13:41 <atriq> I'm effectively teetotal, but it's personal preference, not ideological
19:13:52 <atriq> Except I like wine on occassion
19:14:11 <pikhq> atriq: Yeah, there's a rather big difference between "don't like it" and "I am morally opposed". :)
19:14:13 <Phantom_Hoover> he looks quite dashing but i always gag when he walks past
19:14:37 <atriq> Someone I know got ironically given a pipe for his birthday
19:15:15 <olsner> I had a fried who claimed to be a teetotaller because he was only drinking a little
19:15:17 <kmc> sometimes i wonder if i should take up smoking e-cigarettes
19:16:20 <fizzie> There was a couple with some... things, that I think were e-cigarettes; they looked really scifi, and suspicious, and I'm still not quite sure what was up there.
19:16:54 <kmc> yeah "electronic cigarettes" sounds like something a lazy sci-fi writer would invent to sound more future-y
19:16:59 <fizzie> They didn't look like regular cigarettes, which I understand some (many?) attempt to look like.
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19:17:12 <kmc> digital bath
19:17:31 <fizzie> I think they kind of looked like light saber handles from Star Wars. Except they kept smoking them.
19:17:34 <kmc> i like the effects of nicotine on occasion, but i don't want to smoke tobacco
19:18:19 <kmc> when i owned a vape i should have tried vaping tobacco in it
19:18:34 <kmc> that's what an e-cig is basically
19:18:46 <kmc> also i wonder if you can make e-joints by analogy
19:18:56 <kmc> temperature needs to be adjusted
19:18:56 <fizzie> A combination lightsaber/e-cigarette: good idea, or best idea? (Just remember which end is which.)
19:19:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how would they work, these e-cigs?
19:19:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think electricity is involved.
19:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, is tobacco still involved?
19:20:17 <fizzie> But really, you're asking a guy who's still not sure whether the only ones I've seen were e-cigs or lightsabers.
19:20:41 <fizzie> It just vaporises something, I know that much.
19:20:48 <Vorpal> well both do that yeah
19:21:08 <fizzie> Yes, perhaps the combined model can share some parts.
19:21:17 <olsner> given that lightsabers are lightsaber-handle-sized and e-cigs are cigarette-sized, it should be fairly easy to tell them apart
19:21:37 <kmc> it vaporizes 'a propylene glycol- or glycerin- or polyethylene glycol-based liquid solution '
19:21:53 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe they've made thinner handles these days. Anyway, they weren't made up like fake cigarettes.
19:22:16 <elliott> technically everything fizzie says is made up
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK fizzie but you're going to look like a right tit if you're trying to smoke a lightsabre handle
19:22:44 <Vorpal> kmc, and that gives the same result as nicotine?
19:23:05 <olsner> presumably, the solution contains nicotine
19:23:11 <Sgeo_> Oh, there's a flaw in Clojure that I thought of, but I may have mentioned it before
19:23:30 <kmc> Sgeo_: i don't think you've ever mentioned Clojure here, actually
19:23:48 <fizzie> I like that wikipedia article, it's so encyclopædic: "Newer e cigarettes are using the two piece design now. You now have a battery and a disposable cartomizer. The old three piece method was bad because the cartridge did not hold much "e-juice" and the atomizers were burning up after one or two refills. With the new two piece you get a better "throat hit" and plenty of vapor."
19:24:18 <fizzie> The tone is *exactly* like, say, Encyclopædia Britannica.
19:24:41 <kmc> http://www.thedailychronic.net/2012/8422/thc-e-cig-goes-to-market/
19:24:50 <kmc> encyclopædophile
19:27:07 <ion> derpyclopædia
19:29:00 <kmc> i actually find it remarkable how consistent the tone is on wikipedia
19:29:13 <kmc> given the number of editors
19:29:20 <kmc> there are some aberrations like this article, of course
19:29:58 <kmc> but mostly people converge to a shared style in a way that's almost creepy
19:30:09 <fizzie> It's the mind control, I'd say.
19:30:18 <kmc> another explanation is that there are many authors but few editors; people add content and then the core editors massage the style
19:30:24 <fizzie> I think what they had were maybe something a tiny bit like http://unlimitedecigs.com/store/products/mega-ego-ce5-e-cigarette although I didn't really get a close look.
19:30:32 <kmc> which i think is supported by the data on edits
19:30:43 <fizzie> But that thing has some slight lightsabreish vibes in there.
19:30:49 <kmc> at one point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrichka was less of an encyclopedia article and more a guide on how to ride trains without paying
19:31:26 <kmc> i rode a suburban train in riga without paying so maybe i've been dog-riding
19:33:25 <kmc> also in warszawa the gap between train and platform was like 30 cm or more, wtf
19:34:27 <olsner> fizzie: including 2 MEGA EGO batteries, nice
19:34:41 <fizzie> olsner: Just in case you're having ego problems.
19:35:25 <fizzie> Apparently you can have one of 14 different colors for that middle translucent bit, too.
19:35:40 <olsner> how do you know if you're running low on ego?
19:36:03 <fizzie> There's a handy scale printed on top of the EGO-CE5 Cartomizer.
19:36:22 <fizzie> (Also available in 14 different colors!)
19:36:32 <kmc> wow, red bull flavored nicotine liquid
19:36:36 <kmc> just what i've always wanted
19:39:59 <Sgeo_> I kind of like the taste of Red Bull, I think
19:40:10 <Sgeo_> Although only had Red Bull twice
19:40:16 <atriq> I was on a train today
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19:47:45 <atriq> Any in particular?
19:49:38 <olsner> how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers
19:54:52 <elliott> olsner: better than your os
20:00:07 <kmc> "sports people"?
20:00:14 <kmc> atriq: what kind of train?
20:00:18 <kmc> what was the track gauge
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20:01:22 <fizzie> "How much does this building weigh?" is a standard question to ask on the company excursions organized by the CS student "guild"/organization.
20:01:42 <fizzie> I don't know how many times there's been a serious answer.
20:03:16 <kmc> 10 decibuildings
20:03:19 <pikhq> fizzie: It weighs 1 Biru
20:03:35 <olsner> you should organize your excursions to happen after the group of students who study the calculation of weights of buildings
20:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <olsner> how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers
20:07:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with sports people?
20:07:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like athletes? or sport nerds?
20:08:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also walking with ski poles or whatever they are called in English
20:08:15 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm wearing a jokey science shirt
20:08:24 <Taneb> It says "Science gives me a hadron"
20:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> one of my analysis teachers seems to make a point of coming in in novelty t-shirts
20:09:59 <Taneb> I often wear a Homestuck shirt
20:10:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what is your opinion about people using ski poles when walking?
20:10:21 <kmc> that's a good shirt
20:10:42 <Taneb> kmc, it has similar origins to my cigar
20:10:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, would if I coulsd
20:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a shirt from nasa with some terribly-typeset equations for escape velocity on it as a gift
20:12:34 <Taneb> Oh god I just said that
20:12:38 <Taneb> Almost unironically
20:13:22 <Taneb> But Tumblr is doing bad things to me
20:13:54 <kmc> haters gonna make some valid points
20:14:11 <Taneb> Now I'm gonna suscribe to the Haskell tag
20:14:18 <Phantom_Hoover> wow man maybe you should leave tumblr alone if it's going to change your sexuality
20:17:35 <pikhq> Taneb: You pervosexual!
20:25:16 <fizzie> olsner: Do you suppose those people that do architecture do that kind of thing?
20:25:34 <fizzie> We've got a department of that.
20:25:45 <fizzie> And maybe some other kind of building engineering thing.
20:28:02 -!- constant has changed nick to function.
20:28:20 <fizzie> "The Master’s Programme in Structural Engineering provides students with a solid knowledge of structural engineering and mechanics, building physics, ageing and life time management of structures, construction economics and management as well as building materials technology, foundation engineering or building services technology."
20:28:37 <fizzie> It doesn't sound too far off.
20:29:03 <fizzie> (Sadly, the companies selected for the excursions tend to differ.)
20:31:46 <elliott> Taneb: these fireworks are lam
20:31:47 <elliott> Taneb: these fireworks are lame
20:32:09 <elliott> actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much
20:32:10 <Taneb> Hence (lam -> lame)
20:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, possibly you are not the best person to evaluate firework quality then
20:34:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much <-- yeah, they are kind of cool the first time, but the novelty quickly fades
20:35:39 <olsner> the inhabitants of hexham have given up and are trying to blow the whole thing up
20:39:44 <pikhq> Yes, the city of Roppiki Buta.
20:41:02 <kmc> no some fireworks are fucking sweet
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20:58:28 <olsner> three times as much pig as twin pigs
21:00:21 <fizzie> Six Pigs is probably like the UK version of Six Flags. (Which I understand is a kinda thing.)
21:11:51 <pikhq> olsner: Yes, six pigs is hexham
21:12:06 <pikhq> Well, maybe it should be Roppiki Butaniku
21:12:25 <pikhq> 六匹豚 does look awesome though
21:13:32 <olsner> oh, that must be german hexham
21:13:32 <Taneb> Sounds black speech
21:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> how appropriate for a place that was formerly slang for hell
21:14:13 <fizzie> Urkunz sounds like a site of a nuclear accident.
21:16:12 <olsner> it might be something like chwechmochyn in welsh
21:28:54 <olsner> fungot: say something about hexham
21:28:54 <fungot> olsner: she needs to know. do you agree with me, i'd probably be good at that too
21:29:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:31:02 <fungot> quintopia: but i wouldn't
21:32:49 <fizzie> fungot: Wouldn't repeat, or wouldn't stop?
21:32:50 <fungot> fizzie: like that, although i have no idea what the problem might be
21:32:56 <elliott> pikhq: do you know anything about logrotate
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21:44:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: "豚肉" is the word for pig meat.
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21:48:20 <Sgeo_> There exists a thing called OK! Magazine.
21:48:48 <Taneb> There's also Hello!
21:49:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also, 匹 is not 四, they just look similar.
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22:12:30 <Taneb> When did this happen
22:13:33 <fizzie> You've been a Taneb for more than two hours now.
22:14:00 <Taneb> I'll get there eventually
22:14:01 <fizzie> There's a magazine called "Wired".
22:14:09 <Taneb> And an esolang called Wierd
22:14:34 <Taneb> I'm gonna get some sleep now
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22:17:20 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Nov 4 22:17:19
22:18:31 <kmc> my UTC offset changed today!
22:20:22 <kmc> @localtime kmc
22:20:25 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sun Nov 4 17:21:26 2012
22:21:01 <fizzie> Finland's UTC offset changed last weekend.
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23:26:58 <zzo38> Do you like this??????
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23:32:35 <Sgeo_> (Disclaimer: Previous statement should not necessarily be regarded as correct)
23:48:00 <zzo38> nooodl_: Which one did you not understand?
23:48:12 <nooodl_> <zzo38> Do you like this??????
23:56:44 <zzo38> Which esolangs can be implemented using hardware description language?