00:20:43 <FreeFull> Bike: You can use > for half an x
00:22:05 <Bike> nah, obviously it would be better to have rationals, as pairs of x's. or hell, throw in dedekind cuts
00:26:42 <FreeFull> Hell, we can do even better than that
00:27:23 <Bike> is that even a thing?
00:28:26 <Bike> ou can keep going to quasurnions and so on, then... probablly rather pointless
00:34:39 <kmc> so does news.bbc.co.uk serve a different page to American IPs, or is it actually the case that British news is mostly about America?
00:36:09 <Bike> none of the headlines below the petraeus thing seem american from here...
00:37:29 <kmc> some of the stuff down the page as well
00:37:35 <kmc> i guess i have this impression because the election just happened
00:37:52 <Bike> it even has a Sandy headline... relating to Haiti!
00:38:23 <kmc> the petraeus thing is getting pretty weird
00:38:24 <kmc> "The White House backs Gen John Allen after reports he "flirted" with a woman who was harassed by the lover of CIA Director David Petraeus."
00:39:11 <Bike> john allen revealed be estranged clone of petraeus's uncle
00:40:58 <elliott> <kmc> so does news.bbc.co.uk serve a different page to American IPs, or is it actually the case that British news is mostly about America?
00:41:06 <elliott> (it is almost certainly the latter)
00:41:14 <elliott> (news everywhere is mostly about america)
00:42:04 <kmc> yay we're #1
00:42:21 <kmc> #1 in sex scandals, dubious wars, and confusing elections
00:43:23 <Bike> apparently the petraeus thing has security breaches involved, which would be a nice change from sex scandals (so probably won't happen)
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01:01:37 <elliott> kmc: a | (b << 1) packs two bits together right
01:02:30 <elliott> i am so rusty with bitwise stuff
01:03:05 <elliott> kmc: okay I have a new question
01:03:24 <elliott> if I read a byte a, and then a byte b
01:03:35 <elliott> and I do (a << 8) | (b & 0x00FF)
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01:12:38 <hagb4rd> --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDlBVWja50
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01:58:07 <kmc> BUTTON, BUTTON; MAGIC MUSIC; THE KNIGHT OF THE WHISTLE; MY
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02:57:44 <zzo38> Is there any Csound plugin to play Impulse Tracker instruments?
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03:00:01 <Sgeo__> I hate the GIL I hate the GIL I hate the GIL
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03:33:24 <Sgeo__> It might not be the GIL's fault apparently
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03:49:30 <Sgeo__> My mind is going I can feel it
04:01:55 <kmc> look at you hacker
04:02:00 <kmc> a pathetic creature of meat and bone
04:02:07 <kmc> panting and sweating as you run through my corridors
04:02:23 <kmc> how can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?
04:02:55 <Bike> little does shodan realize that parts of her network interface were written in php
04:04:28 <Sgeo__> kmc, if you're referencing the game I think you're referencing, I've played it
04:06:14 <kmc> monqypatching
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05:04:53 <tswett> How do we know that there's only one standard model of the natural numbers, anyway...
05:06:01 <tswett> I guess it's been proven, in ZFC or something, that there is only one computable model, and that this model is also the only well-ordered model.
05:12:37 <tswett> I've seen it argued that there are, in fact, multiple standard models of the natural numbers. The two most prominent are the positional numeral system, and unary.
05:14:08 <tswett> The argument says that we have no particular reason to think that these two systems are isomorphic.
05:14:46 <zzo38> Should it depend on if you extend them to infinite?
05:14:46 <tswett> Since the number 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 can be written in the positional system, but not in unary.
05:14:47 <monqy> shachaf: are you trying to get me to do a thing? I won't do it
05:15:36 <shachaf> monqy: "do i" have "a reputation"
05:15:56 <tswett> Which... I guess is true for concrete, physical tally marks, but not for abstract theoretical ones.
05:15:56 <monqy> wrt lens, trying to get people to do a thing
05:16:30 <elliott> tswett: so how are you applying this to a new esolang
05:16:34 <zzo38> tswett: Same I was thinking of too.
05:17:15 <zzo38> And I think since you have to use abstract theoretical ones in mathematics, even though you cannot actually write it, you can use a different representation for convenience.
05:17:30 <tswett> elliott: I call it Fuckfuck. It's just like Brainfuck, except you're limited to 28,000 cells.
05:17:45 <monqy> "fuckfuck" is already taken
05:17:59 <tswett> Okay, I'll call it Fuckball.
05:18:14 <shachaf> the new esolang from monqy
05:23:19 <tswett> So, an esolang based on the ultrafinitistic idea that there is no bijection between positional numerals and unary numerals.
05:24:46 <tswett> Presumably, the esolang should be incapable of taking a positional numeral and producing the corresponding unary numeral.
05:25:58 <monqy> does it do anything else ?
05:26:12 <tswett> It does something other than being incapable of that, yes.
05:27:14 <tswett> How is this usually done? The obvious way to do it is via recursion. To unarize a long numeral, start by unarizing all but the last digit, n times.
05:28:04 <tswett> So we should prohibit that kind of recursion.
05:29:01 <Bike> you could just add. int i,tot=0;for(i=0;i<n;++i)write('1');
05:29:17 <tswett> How do you do it using iteration instead? The obvious way to do that is to just repeatedly decrement the numeral and write out "1" each time.
05:30:05 <tswett> Okay, so we just have to make it impossible to repeatedly decrement numerals like that.
05:31:16 <tswett> And the obvious way to do *that* is to make it a stack-based automaton. Right?
05:32:33 <Bike> could you just not have inbuilt positional numerals, forcing church encoding or something more unary-y?
05:33:00 <tswett> Lambda calculus doesn't have to use Church encoding; it can use the positional system.
05:33:41 <tswett> So, we want to make it a stack-based automaton. And that makes me think, stack-based automata are those which can recognize context-free grammars.
05:33:54 <tswett> So, this esolang shall be a syntax for expressing context-free grammars.
05:35:42 <tswett> Which is easy, right? Just take regular expressions and add things that mean "push this" and "pop this".
05:36:13 <tswett> In the interest of inconsistency, the "push this" symbol should be "\p" and the "pop this" symbol should be "-".
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06:17:54 <kmc> i think if i ever finish that window manager it will have to be named windowlicker
06:18:12 <Sgeo__> This one person in #jesus who has ... issues is now having worse issues
06:18:20 <Sgeo__> "yEO nAAd tE sObmUt tE GEd SGEO__"
06:18:27 <Sgeo__> He's doing some sort of letter replacement thing
06:19:22 <Bike> Sgeo__: is this person giygas
06:19:24 * shachaf is sorely lacking a good window manager right now.
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06:19:56 <Sgeo__> Don't know who giygas is
06:22:10 <Bike> kmc: you could call the inevitable flamewarry forks Windowsill and Polygon Window, even
06:22:37 <elliott> kmc: would this wm be better than xmonad
06:23:14 <kmc> elliott: ofc
06:23:25 <kmc> it will be better because it will be written in haskell
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06:30:16 <kmc> #jesus: officially sponsored by the catholic church
06:30:20 <kmc> otherwise it would have to be ##jesus
06:31:03 <shachaf> Can't it be sponsored by some other church?
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06:35:16 <kmc> i think protestants would not generally have someone willing to speak on behalf of jesus to certify an IRC channel
06:37:02 <Sgeo__> Is #esoteric officially sponsored by the Official Committee of Esoteric Languages?
06:37:39 <shachaf> Well, I think the person who runs esolangs.org is in here sometimes.
06:37:45 <Sgeo__> Both #esoteric and #jesus were founded 2003.
06:37:51 <Bike> it's officially sponsored by Eso Teric, blind god of the tarpit, I thought
06:39:30 <elliott> <shachaf> Well, I think the person who runs esolangs.org is in here sometimes.
06:39:31 <fizzie> I thought it was the "ESOtropic TERriers International Conglomeration", often abbreviated ESOTERIC, from which the claim for a primary channel came from?
06:40:14 <fizzie> I can't kick him, he's not in here.
06:42:17 <fizzie> Double-precision rational.
06:42:39 <shachaf> double-double precision rational
06:42:56 <fizzie> struct drat { double num, den; }; /* best number format */
06:42:58 <Bike> a ratio of double floats could be innovative
06:45:04 <fizzie> (Some) C compilers on PPC have a double-double "long double".
06:45:42 <Bike> cmucl has double-double-floats. i have no idea why, because it has hardware support nowhere
06:47:30 <fizzie> Better than a double, yet not as slow as a generic arbitrary-precision soft-float, perhaps.
06:48:10 <kmc> double double animal style
06:48:27 <Bike> doesn't have arbitrary precision floats. the mystery deepens
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07:14:55 <zzo38> I made some document for the skill generator of FurryScript.
07:16:04 <Sgeo__> aowjiefuiawhefiauwhfuioawyehruoafwyevfgawyefvoawefbghawhjfbgaukweyfawkhjufbaukwjefbawukefgakuvfaukwevgfauwgevfawuievfuiawyefguiawygefuiawyefgauiywefgauiwyefguiaweyfgaiw8efygauiwefg
07:17:21 <Sgeo__> The bug that I've been fighting this whole time, and blamed on the GIL at one point? Turns out I miscopied the account's key.
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07:24:19 <Sgeo__> There's another bug somewhere
07:24:59 <shachaf> ?? ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
07:25:21 <shachaf> ?? (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw)
07:25:22 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\" "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" Just 'J' Just 'J' Exception: <<loop>>
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07:56:37 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:05:02 <Sgeo__> How big was the original TimeToken?
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> The original TimeToken was 13 (thirteen) digit places.
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> How big is the new TimeToken?
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> The new TimeToken is 17 (seventeen) digit places.
08:05:04 <Sgeo__> How big is the difference between new and old TimeToken?
08:05:06 <Sgeo__> The difference is 4 (four) digit places."
08:05:15 <Sgeo__> FAQs. For people who can't do math.
08:06:18 <olsner> i.e. for everyone, because no-one can do math
08:07:11 <olsner> though I wonder how they managed to math out all those numbers given that no-one can do math
08:08:16 <fizzie> Maybe they used a mathputer.
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08:42:53 <olsner> the mathputer spontaneously erupted from math itself
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09:32:28 <Jafet> I hope this isn't contagious.
09:32:49 <atriq> Now tell me what it is
09:34:18 <shachaf> atriq: Uh-oh, now Jafet got it too.
09:34:43 <elliott> IMO Jafet isn't as good as Java
09:34:53 <Jafet> I hope I don't lose sleep over this.
09:34:54 <shachaf> IMO Java isn't as good as Jafet
09:35:50 <Jafet> Proof by mahayana metaphysics
09:37:12 <shachaf> elliott: Do you think Lens.Zipper-style zippers for infinite strict data structures are possible?
09:37:19 <shachaf> Infinite traversals of strict data structures.
09:37:24 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/81
09:39:57 <atriq> shachaf, can you give an example of an infinite strict data structure?
09:40:35 <shachaf> > toListOf traverseBits (5::Integer)
09:40:37 <lambdabot> [True,False,True,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,Fals...
09:41:00 <Jafet> > toListOf traverseBits (-1 :: Integer)
09:41:02 <lambdabot> [True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True...
09:42:26 <shachaf> Unfortunately there's no way to turn a traversed Integer back into an Integer.
09:43:07 <shachaf> Maybe you could do it with a special kind of Traversal.
09:43:11 <shachaf> I don't think it'd really be worth it...
09:43:20 <Jafet> Clearly we need that lazy integer thingylingy
09:43:54 <Jafet> you will be granted a license to unamb
09:44:37 <shachaf> What lazy integer thingylingy?
09:45:12 <atriq> Testing my Fueue interpreter:
09:45:14 <atriq> *** Exception: Taneb's done something stupid!
09:46:49 <Jafet> The one that we decided wasn't actually possible apart from Nat
09:46:58 <fizzie> Is "(java)" like when you cast some other language into a Java?
09:47:18 <Jafet> How did you know that
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11:24:13 <elliott> It seems to me that .NET assemblies have the following advantages over Haskell packages:
11:24:13 <elliott> Being mostly compiled, .NET assemblies add very little overhead added to the build process.
11:26:48 <atriq> Ah, the advantages of not supporting more than 1 operating system
11:30:21 <shachaf> .NET assemblies work on more than one operating system.
11:31:07 <shachaf> elliott: So if you have data Foo a = Foo [a] a [a]; instance Comonad Foo, and you want to generalize it to data Foo x a = Foo [a] x [a], you can't really do that, can you?
11:31:24 <shachaf> You can do Foo f a = Foo [a] (f a) [a], but that's hardly the same. :-(
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13:34:35 <elliott> ais523: how's that super-safe transactional save mechanism working out for you
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14:46:47 <atriq> I just found myself wishing for a zero-width space key on my keyboard
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16:52:38 <kmc> TIL: python random.SystemRandom() is an object with the same API as random itself, which uses /dev/urandom directly
17:18:21 <oklofok> anyone here an expert on keyboards
17:19:24 <oklofok> i want an nkro ortho-linear keyboard with a separate numpad
17:19:46 <oklofok> separate as in not a numpad button that makes part of the keyboard into a numpad.
17:20:22 <oklofok> i'd prefer to pay less than 1000 euros
17:21:15 <oklofok> typematrix is ortho-linear, and i hear there are nkro keyboards. numpads are of course easier to find than not find.
17:21:32 <oklofok> but i haven't seen one with all
17:22:40 <oklofok> (i would also prefer blank skin because keyboards with text are kinda ugly, but i suppose that's easy to fix.)
17:27:15 <Arc_Koen> blank skin, you mean like a keyboard painted in white?
17:30:26 <oklofok> but that's optional, i can just paint over it or something
17:32:19 <oklofok> i don't really care what the keys feel like, it'd be enough to get a keyboard that's not a retarded piece of shit.
17:32:40 <oklofok> (the definition of not being a retarded piece of shit being nkro + ortho-linear)
17:33:55 <oklofok> before i bought the typematrix, the definition was being ortho-linear, but nkro is an almost equally pressing issue which i only noticed later.
17:45:00 <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know how http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rhotor works? there are no example programs and I don't really understand the syntax for functions
17:45:38 <Arc_Koen> apparently I'm supposed to use "the :symbol notation" but I don't really know what it does
17:46:28 <oklofok> that the keys are arranged in a grid
17:46:40 <Arc_Koen> and the link to the interpreter seems broken
17:47:04 <oklofok> http://www.blog.cyberkinetx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/DSC_1944.jpg
17:47:12 <quintopia> i suspect your requirements are too many
17:47:21 <oklofok> nkro + ortho-linear are the main ones
17:47:29 <quintopia> nkro already eliminates 9/10 of the market
17:47:35 <Arc_Koen> you should use that keyboard to shoot a science-fiction show
17:48:02 <oklofok> ortho-linear is way more important, i can't stand staggered (at least the standard way of staggering, diagonal lines would be okay probably, but i don't see the point)
17:48:36 <Arc_Koen> (we used to have touch screens for that, but they're so common now they don't look futuristic any longer)
17:49:06 <oklofok> so you can press any amount of keys at the same time
17:49:47 <quintopia> or if you want to use it for steno
17:50:12 <oklofok> for the same reason i want my keyboard not to have the feature that typing "escalladoddo" actually writes "dude you suck". nkro makes sense, non-nkro doesn't.
17:50:24 <Arc_Koen> doesn't steno care about some order among the typed letters?
17:50:35 <oklofok> and yeah if you had it, you could make programs that use it.
17:50:48 <oklofok> obviously most programs don't because keyboards don't have nkro.
17:50:57 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure I understand your escalladoddo comment though
17:51:12 <oklofok> if i press two keys, i want two keypresses to be sent.
17:51:22 <Arc_Koen> (but I can relate to the T9 system used by my phone's keyboard is very very lame)
17:51:29 <oklofok> i don't want a random subset to be sent.
17:51:33 <quintopia> Arc_Koen: plover just looks at which keys were all typed in the last 100ms, regardless of order, and considers that a stroke
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17:52:19 <oklofok> Arc_Koen: the comment was a very random example of a feature that doesn't have a point. yeah you might not bump into it. it still makes no sense.
17:52:40 <oklofok> the natural thing to happen when i press 7 keys is that 7 keys are sent.
17:53:02 <oklofok> also why do people always discuss WHY you'd wont nkro, and not instead tell why they want non-nkro?
17:53:09 <Arc_Koen> if I press two keys and let go, two letters appear on my screen
17:53:48 <Arc_Koen> though if I press two keys and don't let go, first two letters appear, then one of the two get printed indefinitely and the other just don't
17:53:52 <quintopia> oklofok: they want, say, 5kro rather than nkro because it is far cheaper
17:54:54 <oklofok> i payed something like 100 for typematrix
17:55:02 <oklofok> i'd pay 400 more for nkro.
17:55:28 <quintopia> most people cannot fathom paying that much for a keyboard
17:55:35 <oklofok> i wouldn't have to feel ashamed of myself everytime i touch my keyboard
17:57:30 <kmc> flat ortholinear seems pretty bad since fingers are not all the same length and resting position of hand is not perfectly flat
17:58:01 <kmc> it's hard for me to imagine any of these being more comfortable than the kinesis contoured
17:58:27 <oklofok> kinesis contoured is one i'm currently looking at
17:58:55 <oklofok> but where's the arrow keys?
17:59:26 <oklofok> flat ortholinear is way better than qwerty imo, never tried a contoured kb.
17:59:52 <kmc> arrow keys are just under qwerty's CV and M,
18:00:05 <kmc> small curl of the index and middle fingers
18:00:16 <kmc> pretty nice -- this is why i didn't learn vim hjkl until recently
18:01:03 <kmc> layout-wise the other big difference is putting bksp del home end pgup pgdn enter space and modifiers into thumb clusters
18:01:21 <kmc> it's pretty dumb that you have two thumbs, they're super strong, and yet on a normal keyboard they can only hit one key between them
18:01:32 <kmc> yes left/right are on the left and up/down are on the right
18:01:51 <kmc> also it has two \| keys
18:01:57 <kmc> which took me like a year to notice
18:02:00 <kmc> i have bound one to Esc
18:02:13 <kmc> but now i mostly use Ctrl-[ for escape
18:02:19 <oklofok> "<kmc> yes left/right are on the left and up/down are on the right" that seems a bit weird
18:02:27 <oklofok> but i guess you get used to it pretty fast
18:02:36 <oklofok> so umm, i suppose no nkro?
18:02:47 <kmc> i think not
18:03:09 <kmc> based on disassembling mine I think it would be fairly easy to replace the controller board
18:03:21 <kmc> but the switches might still be wired up in a matrixey way that precludes nkro
18:03:22 <oklofok> http://www.amazon.com/Crayola-USB-EZ-Type-Keyboard/dp/B00167ZYMK/ref=sr_1_199?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1352916035&sr=1-199&keywords=keyboard
18:03:42 <kmc> is it labeled in comic sans
18:03:52 <kmc> teaching children qwerty :(
18:05:04 <oklofok> i tried to learn dvorak at some point but ä and ö were just too annoying.
18:05:18 <quintopia> whats wrong with teaching children qwerty? are you a dvorak snob?
18:05:24 <oklofok> (at least in the standard layout you get by pressing the dvorak button)
18:05:45 <ion> I use altgr-q for ä and altgr-p for ö.
18:05:46 <quintopia> or do you think we should just give them all touchscreens with swype?
18:06:06 <oklofok> ion: i'd prefer a single key
18:06:13 <kmc> quintopia: qwerty sucks
18:06:20 <kmc> dvorak is one of many non-shitty alternatives
18:06:35 <kmc> i don't claim that dvorak in particular is awesome, just that qwerty sucks
18:06:48 <kmc> that said my complaint is not very serious, because in the real world, being able to type in qwerty is very useful
18:06:50 <quintopia> you arent proposing an alternative
18:06:53 <kmc> and so it's probably a good skill for your children to have
18:06:58 <quintopia> or providing an argument for that matter
18:07:14 <kmc> what crawled up your butt and died
18:07:30 <kmc> om nom nom
18:07:47 <kmc> if i weren't at work i would send a very nsfw animated gif at this juncture
18:07:47 <Arc_Koen> kmc: is that why you never learned esperanto?
18:07:58 <kmc> i don't follow
18:08:22 <oklofok> quintopia: you like qwerty?
18:09:50 <quintopia> i dont see any problem with it really. i know they say dvorak is up to 10% faster with a year of practice, but keyboards are going to be slow. that's just how keyboarding is.
18:10:08 <Arc_Koen> kmc: well, because the ability to speak in actual languages is more important than speaking esperanto, in real life
18:11:12 <oklofok> keyboards are slow? compared to what?
18:11:21 <oklofok> they're pretty slow compared to speech at least
18:11:35 <oklofok> but do you mean like other methods of doing things on the computer
18:13:55 <kmc> Arc_Koen: also esperanto is just boring
18:14:02 <kmc> yet another romance language
18:14:08 <kmc> might as well learn a romance language people actually use
18:14:24 <kmc> whereas, I can see the interest of learning Lojban even though nobody uses it
18:14:32 <kmc> or hungarian
18:14:43 <Arc_Koen> kmc: I hope you're not one of those Lojban nerds!
18:15:32 <oklofok> quintopia: can you teach a computer to read steno? would be pretty cool
18:15:36 <kmc> i don't know any lojban
18:15:43 <kmc> learned a tiny bit a long time ago and then forgot
18:15:45 <Arc_Koen> Lojban seemed very interesting but I have decided not to try to learn it until I speak Chinese, Russian, Arabic, German, and at least five other languages
18:16:16 <Arc_Koen> and since this condition is probably never gonna be fulfilled in this lifetime... :)
18:16:31 <quintopia> oklofok: steno machines *are* computers, but again, plover can steno from a regular nkro keyboard
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18:17:23 <oklofok> ohh you mean that sorta steno
18:17:58 <oklofok> i thought you meant just writing shorthand with pen.
18:18:22 <zzo38> Do you know how to write shorthand?
18:18:31 <quintopia> i think steno is faster and more ergonomic than any penbased method
18:18:59 <oklofok> so about steno, do you actually write all the data?
18:20:14 <oklofok> or can you just write speech in some abbreviated... okay
18:20:29 <quintopia> but if you want to write gibberish you have to do one stroke per letter
18:20:41 <quintopia> whereas real words are 1-4 strokds per word
18:21:19 <oklofok> so you can actually use stenos as everyday kbs?
18:21:43 <quintopia> miranda knight uses it for everything
18:21:57 <Bike> i know a guy who uses half his keyboard, as chorded steno input
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22:41:16 <Sgeo__> monqy, update that I can't see because I can't seem to connect to MSPA for some bizarre reason :(
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23:01:59 <Sgeo__> Phantom__Hoover, there was an update
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23:13:23 <Arc_Koen> yeah, Phantom__Hoover, I think I saw someone update brainfuck recently
23:16:41 <Arc_Koen> an update to your tumblr would be great though
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