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00:57:20 <kmc> information-theoretically, how much do you lose by insisting on a self-synchronizing code
01:12:01 <oerjan> my guess is nothing in the limit of long enough strings
01:15:45 <kmc> i think so too
01:15:49 <kmc> or, sufficiently many code words
01:16:00 <kmc> the framing is a constant amount of mutual information between the sender and receiver
01:25:08 <kmc> the heating vents in my house are producing air that smells like naptha
01:36:39 <oerjan> just a portal to hell, nothing to worry about
01:42:25 <shachaf> kmc: have you had strawberries with balsamic vinegar yet!
01:44:30 -!- ais523 has quit.
01:46:52 <kmc> the JavaScriptMVC people got back to me
01:47:24 <kmc> kind of an odd response
01:47:34 <kmc> it starts with "Thanks for pointing this out. And we will likely change it."
01:47:45 <kmc> and then explains various reasons why they shouldn't have to change it and don't want to
01:49:19 <kmc> predictable ones
01:49:28 <elliott> (1) we didn't mean that so it doesn't count (2) even if we *did* mean that it'd be okay
01:49:53 <kmc> i will unfairly paraphrase them as "it's your fault for noticing that the word 'craftsman' is based on the word 'man'"
01:50:06 <kmc> also "thinking of non-gendered terms is simply beyond my ability as a writer"
01:51:56 <kmc> ends with 'Do you think we can ever live in a world where we can say "all woman created equal" or "craftsman" without everyone getting upset? Where people don't read into meanings that aren't there.'
01:52:04 <kmc> which is a pretty perfect opportunity to link http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
01:52:34 <elliott> do you think we can ever live in a world where people who make shitty javascript frameworks don't consider themselves authorities on everything
01:52:35 <kmc> also i guess this is one of those areas where calmly pointing out the unintended consequences of someone's actions is equivalent to "getting upset"
01:52:40 <kmc> elliott: no hth
01:53:30 <elliott> kmc: imo point out that "all woman created equal" isn't grammatically correct
02:02:01 <shachaf> You could just use Text. :-)
02:02:16 <Fiora> ugh, the "I didn't /intend/ to be sexist/racist/etc, so it wasn't"
02:02:28 <shachaf> kmc: That was the response you expected, right?
02:02:58 <kmc> also they cited south park to make some unclear point
02:03:01 <kmc> which is... not a great sign
02:03:05 <kmc> shachaf: i expected worse
02:03:08 <Bike> sounds like a bingo to me
02:03:33 <shachaf> "you think i'm sexist? well that just makes you sexistist!"
02:03:34 <kmc> like, they are saying incorrect things, but in a way which is potentially open to calm discussion, and they *did* say they're going to change it
02:03:44 <kmc> which is better than i hoped because i'm a misanthrope
02:03:48 <kmc> or.... humanist?!?!?
02:04:05 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:04:07 <elliott> welcome to the nick i haven't seen before treatment
02:04:11 <elliott> available exclusively from elliott
02:04:33 <kmc> i'm avoiding even saying that their word choice is "sexist" because at the end of the day this is a pretty small thing
02:04:38 <kmc> i would say "exclusionary" and perhaps "alienating"
02:04:41 <kmc> these are some good words
02:04:49 <Fiora> exclusionary is probably the best I think
02:05:21 <HackEgo> FIORA: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
02:05:29 <kmc> `WeLcOmE Fiora
02:05:35 <HackEgo> FiOrA: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
02:05:40 <kmc> i think fullwidth only exists in upper case
02:05:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
02:05:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found
02:05:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ: not found
02:06:00 <shachaf> fizzie: add `tervetuloa thx
02:06:04 <Bike> welcoming is hard
02:06:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found
02:06:05 <kmc> `w3lc0m3 Fiora
02:06:06 <Fiora> eep so many welcomes
02:06:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: w3lc0m3: not found
02:06:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22997
02:06:21 <elliott> Fiora: don't you dare feel welcome until this is over
02:06:29 <elliott> "ＷＥＬＣＯï¼ï¼¥" a victory for bad encoding
02:06:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `hello'': not found
02:06:32 <kmc> `welcome | rot13
02:06:33 <Bike> man there are only three welcomes
02:06:37 <HackEgo> |: rot13: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:06:39 <Bike> what is this garbage
02:06:44 <kmc> `run welcome Fiora | rot13
02:06:49 <HackEgo> ＦＩＯＲＡ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．
02:07:00 <kmc> perhaps we are... coming on too strong?
02:07:15 <Bike> stay strong, fiora, irc bots can't last forever
02:07:19 <elliott> thats not enough welcome imo
02:07:23 <monqy> Fiora: do you know who "sgeo" is
02:07:33 <shachaf> `run welcome Fiora | tr 'a-zA-Z' 'n-za-mN-ZA-M'
02:07:36 <Fiora> um... I don't think os
02:07:37 <HackEgo> Svben: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
02:07:42 <elliott> i was just typing that god dammit
02:07:44 <monqy> Sgeo: put Fiora on the list
02:07:46 <elliott> except i stole the tr off google
02:07:53 <monqy> Fiora: "you won't regret this"
02:07:59 <kmc> Sgeo is the emperor of hexham
02:08:04 <shachaf> Fiora: You don't want to be on the list.
02:08:11 <shachaf> The list is the most annoying thing to be on.
02:08:12 <Fiora> idon'tevenknowwhat'sgoingon
02:08:22 <Bike> how do you tell if you're on the list
02:08:23 <shachaf> Fiora: Remember: "stay off the list"
02:08:28 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | perl -e '$a=<>;print reverse $a'
02:08:32 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:08:38 <Fiora> what even is the list <_>
02:08:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: Don't you dare put Fiora on the list, you hear?
02:09:02 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | python -e '__import__("sys").stdout.write(__import__("sys").stdin.read().reverse())'
02:09:06 <HackEgo> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
02:09:12 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | python -c '__import__("sys").stdout.write(__import__("sys").stdin.read().reverse())'
02:09:16 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'reverse'
02:09:29 <Bike> welcoming is harder than I ever could have imagined.
02:09:31 <Fiora> the feeling is apparently mutual :p
02:09:34 <shachaf> `run welcome Fiora | perl -pe '$_ = reverse $_;'
02:09:34 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | python -c '__import__("sys").stdout.write(reversed(__import__("sys").stdin.read()))'
02:09:38 <HackEgo> \ ).ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF( .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :aroiF
02:09:46 <elliott> ^scramble Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:09:47 <fungot> Foa ecm oteitrainlhbfreoei rgamn agaedsg n elyet o oeifrain hc u u ii tp/eoag.r/iiMi_ae Frteohrkn feoeia r eoei nicdlnt).e.a.r ocrts#yt,crts odi et h o(.gPna/kwgosnls/:th:kwrotokec,otmon rmrF!nmopddanie gunl ...
02:09:56 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ TypeError: must be string or read-only character buffer, not reversed
02:09:57 <Fiora> what did I start here ._.
02:10:00 <elliott> you don't get any more welcomes
02:10:00 <lambdabot> import Random;main=mapM_((>>(י=<<randomRIO('̀','ͯ'))).י)=<<getContents;י=putChar
02:10:03 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
02:10:17 <Bike> welcoming is really hard.
02:10:18 * Fiora is completely confuzzled
02:10:20 <Bike> do you feel welcomed?
02:10:44 <monqy> i'll tell elliott he goofed
02:10:57 -!- elliott has joined.
02:10:59 <elliott> anyone else for me to welcome
02:11:09 <shachaf> Fͫi͘örͯa͜:͟ ͊W̗e̚l͖c̴oͣm̌ȅ ̃ṱo̔ ͂t̀h̥e͚ ̬i̸n͝t̍eͦrͅn͆a̱t̋i̮o̱n̓a̟l͡ ̭h̞u̪b̈́ ͤf͛o̎r̞ ̐eͭšo͞ţe̲r͎i͓cͫ ͇p̜r̠o̝g͡r͢ăm̚m̾i͗n̜gͨ ͧlͧa̠n͢g̽ûa͛ğe͎ ͊d͍e̋s̮ȋg͔nͤ ͎a̐n͜d͏ ̪d̘eͭpͪlͫo͠y̠m̻e̴n̽t̍!̉ ͍F͎ỏr̔ ̞ṁo̴ŕê ̓i͆n̻f͙o̥r͑mͦât̟i̭o̐n̄,͊ ̕c̉h̃e͊c͊ǩ ͠o̳u͇t̼ ͣo͜uͩr̳ ͑w̾i̟k͏iͬ:̉ ...
02:11:15 <shachaf> ... ̓h̎t͋tͥp̳:̮/̳/͉e͊ŝo̢l͕aͫn̝gͨs̴.̲o̶r̺g͞/̲w͎i̵k̂ĩ/ͅM̵aͩi̜n͝_̿Pͪäg͗eͩ.͊ ́(ͮF͜o͐r̵ ͥt͈h́e̴ ͢o̮tͩh̿eͅr̝ ͦk͓i͙n͖d̒ ̲oͥf͙ ͍e̟s̼o̙t̹e̴r̂i̠c̟a̸,̀ ̡t̄r̮y͡ ͛#̄eͥs͈ōt͆e̷r͌i̽c̝ ͋o̫nͩ ͮi̔r̢c̬.ͫdͩa͗ĺ.̑ǹe͍t͓.̜)͗
02:11:47 <shachaf> Fiora: "btw we don't like your kind"
02:11:47 <Bike> huh, the diacritic barf looks almost like music with all those overbars
02:12:25 <shachaf> Newcomers always demand so much attention!
02:12:27 <elliott> i just spent several minutes welcoming Fiora
02:12:29 <kmc> i wrote that zalgoizer
02:12:37 <elliott> rather upset at the implication that i don't like newbies
02:12:42 <shachaf> Back in the golden days of kmc+#haskell
02:12:58 <shachaf> Newcomers always need to be welcomed 12 different ways.
02:13:00 <kmc> mostly i like that it uses literal combining characters in the source
02:13:07 <kmc> i wonder if a strict reading of the haskell report would reject it
02:13:08 <elliott> Fiora: also where did you come from. this is part of your mandatory #esoteric survey
02:13:16 <kmc> a) hexham b) finland c) other
02:13:20 <Fiora> um, Bike invited me
02:13:21 <Bike> I linked her kmc's article on jit spraying.
02:13:31 <kmc> i believe in fact that Fiora was here yesterday
02:13:39 <elliott> you both have short names that start with an uppercase letter so that makes sense
02:13:51 <shachaf> 11:55 <oerjan> Fiora: well we all hate Lolcode here, that's similar
02:13:51 <Bike> drat, our camouflage foiled
02:13:54 <kmc> i noticed that we have both a FreeFull and FireFly, that's confusing
02:14:01 <elliott> kmc: can't bring out all the welcomes before you know someone's serious
02:14:22 * oerjan swats FireFly for confusing people -----###
02:14:23 <shachaf> Fiora: You know, I never got the welcome treatment.
02:14:38 * oerjan then swats Fiora for confusing his tab completion -----###
02:14:58 <shachaf> kmc: Did you ever get `welcomed?
02:15:05 <elliott> Fiora: it's ok. you'll get used to it. after a while the swats don't even hurt
02:15:13 <FreeFull> I've been registered with nickserv for almost two years longer than FireFly
02:15:13 <elliott> sometimes i don't even notice i was swatted
02:15:23 * oerjan swats elliott for demonstration -----###
02:15:23 <Fiora> but shouldn't you swat, like, the fly
02:15:32 <FreeFull> FireFly probably was in the channel before me though
02:15:35 <Fiora> I don't want to be swatted
02:15:35 <Bike> Just what are you implying!
02:15:41 <HackEgo> 62) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
02:15:53 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 13) <Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom \ 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his
02:15:55 <lambdabot> simonpj says: My brain is too small to figure out the consequences of adding first-class existentials to Haskell
02:16:19 <shachaf> Clearly there's only one reasonable option.
02:16:30 <oerjan> Fiora: i already did hth
02:16:45 <shachaf> oerjan: You should swat me.
02:17:20 * oerjan swats the word "should" -----###
02:17:57 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEHwtD01MXc
02:18:32 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you feel like figuring out my lens problem.
02:18:37 <shachaf> edwardk and I haven't figured it out yet.
02:18:48 <elliott> i have a theremin, it's better than this one
02:20:08 <elliott> kmc: "Do you have a "code along" so I can get in on this ? Just wondering."
02:20:24 <monqy> is that like a sing along
02:20:35 <kmc> yeah i don't know man
02:20:38 <kmc> follow the bouncing ball
02:20:42 <kmc> maybe i shouldn't say "i don't know man"
02:20:49 <kmc> i don't know, ppl
02:20:51 <kmc> there we go
02:21:20 <shachaf> elliott: stands for "ppl for ppl liberation"
02:21:45 <kmc> parts per liter
02:22:44 <monqy> "python programming language", apparently
02:22:59 <monqy> i, too, don't know python programming language
02:23:04 <elliott> porcupines postulating latently
02:23:06 <shachaf> "ppl programming language"
02:23:14 <shachaf> "GET IT: recursive arconym"
02:23:16 <elliott> monqy: you don't know python?? knowing python is such a thrill
02:23:33 <monqy> elliott: i know python as much as anyone!!!!
02:23:34 <kmc> shachaf: woah
02:23:36 <kmc> that fucks my brain
02:23:50 <kmc> Python Is a pretty Cool language But I have Some Improvements
02:24:04 <oerjan> ppl stands for "language with no recursive acronym"
02:24:22 <elliott> monqy: the average person is pretty bad at python imo
02:24:31 <kmc> i was self-referentially complaining about hipsters before it was cool
02:24:32 <elliott> Fiora: are you still feeling welcome
02:24:38 -!- Jafet1 has joined.
02:25:03 <monqy> elliott: im probably "bad at python" just because of i try doing things and python does stupid things
02:25:09 <kmc> i'm going to keep saying that until someone acknowledges how fantastic it is
02:25:18 <shachaf> elliott: "i know python as much as anyone" --> the supremum of the set of everyone
02:25:18 <elliott> sorry kmc but nothing you say or do will ever be fantastic :(
02:25:30 <kmc> but could i be... fabulous?
02:25:38 <kmc> maybe faaaaabulous?
02:25:55 <shachaf> kmc: Isn't it great when you're reading a book from the 1950s and "fantastic" doesn't mean "very good"?
02:26:02 <HackEgo> 210) <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. <j-invariant> HAHA [...] <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something \ 366) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need
02:26:25 <kmc> perhaps the reason the adjective "awesome" dominates is that all others are perceived as "too gay"
02:26:40 <monqy> what a reason, that
02:27:17 <Jafet1> What's wrong with bright, happy adjectives?
02:27:17 <shachaf> monqy: "is this this channe p. bad right now"
02:27:23 <kmc> the morman doorman
02:27:26 <kmc> coming this fall to CBS
02:27:31 <oerjan> kmc: what a gaysome theory
02:28:22 <shachaf> FreeFull: have you considered changing your nick to "fremont"
02:29:16 <shachaf> elliott: should i use spivak pronouns like sorear
02:29:54 <elliott> kallisti: it was CakeProphet, not you
02:30:08 <shachaf> kmc: Every noun is instantly assigned a gender in my mind. :-(
02:30:13 <shachaf> "does that make me sexist"
02:30:14 <kmc> Jafet1: nothing wrong with them unless you are super paranoid about anyone thinking you might be gay, which apparently a lot of heterosexual men are
02:30:14 <KALLISTI> elliott: why would you lie to yourself like that
02:30:17 <kmc> don't totally understand
02:30:25 <HackEgo> 226) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spinners.png (tiled) <j-invariant> uhrghoaudp \ 279) 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric. \ 366) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more
02:30:36 <kmc> shachaf: is this because of hebrew or finnish or something
02:30:42 <KALLISTI> I think X is a pretty cool guy. E respects all genders and doesn't afraid of anything.
02:30:46 <shachaf> kmc: By the way, it's not always the same gender as in Hebrew.
02:30:51 <HackEgo> 366) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs.
02:31:01 <elliott> a world in which CakeProphet has ops. what a world
02:31:07 <shachaf> kmc: Finnish doesn't distinguish "he" from "she"!
02:31:14 <kmc> shachaf: woah
02:31:19 <kmc> let's all speak finnish
02:31:41 <shachaf> kmc: "yeah but then you have to speak finnish"
02:31:48 <elliott> isn't finnish's singular they also their "it"
02:31:53 <kmc> that's sensible
02:31:55 <elliott> s/"//g needs to be more confusing
02:32:21 <KALLISTI> it puts the lotion -- you know what, nevermind
02:32:33 <monqy> hi what's going on
02:32:40 <lambdabot> Local time for Fiora is Tue Nov 20 02:32:39 2012
02:32:46 <shachaf> Fiora: GET OUT OF HERE YOU'RE RUINING MY TAB COMPLETION
02:32:50 <kmc> i'm trying to figure out a way to point out that labeling your opponents as "upset" is a classic tool of the patriarchy, a way of pointing this out which has some chance of being productive
02:32:50 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Tue Nov 20 04:32:49 2012
02:32:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
02:33:01 <elliott> that's not going to make Fiora feel very welcome shachaf...............
02:33:14 <kmc> can't drop the p-bomb just yet
02:33:38 * shachaf is not a fan of the p-bomb
02:33:38 <elliott> kmc: feel like making a terrible u mad joke round about now
02:33:49 <elliott> no i have to maintain my dignity!!!
02:33:53 <kmc> you have to be willing to throw it all away for a u mad joke
02:33:54 <KALLISTI> elliott: I have ops in other channels. thank you very much. I only occasionally abuse it.
02:33:57 <monqy> i can't find what p bomb means
02:33:59 <Bike> kmc: maybe making parallels with "hysteria", though maybe i'm assuming too much about people's knowledge of victorian psychology
02:34:08 <elliott> monqy: it's when you pee into a balloon and then throw it at someone
02:34:17 <kmc> i saw that on TV
02:34:22 <kmc> spoiler alert: it did not go as planned
02:34:35 <monqy> https://deepclimate.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/contraian-publication-record.gif i'm searching but???????
02:34:44 <shachaf> Bike: hysteria: a sexist word??
02:34:48 <monqy> http://www.p-bomb.net/ hELP?????
02:34:50 <elliott> mcintyre........... what are you doing
02:35:06 <elliott> not as good as sour cereal though
02:35:19 * KALLISTI is starting a new trend of UPPERCASE nicks
02:35:27 <KALLISTI> just wait. 2 years from now. everyone will be doing it.
02:35:39 <KALLISTI> too long have the lowercase nicks reigned supreme.
02:35:43 <kmc> /nick ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ
02:35:53 <shachaf> can we start a new trend of kicking people with uppercase nicks
02:35:55 <monqy> You laugh at the right jokes, you fire back witty (but not to witty) remarks, your eyes take on a extra little sparkle and then, it happens. The 'P' Bomb.
02:36:04 <KALLISTI> I can't read that because putty sucks at UTF-8 apparently. or maybe it's Windows system fonts or something
02:36:19 <kmc> hacked by greek
02:36:36 <monqy> Short for "party bomb", P-Bombs are typically spoken in secret.
02:36:37 <monqy> Used by people in the party industry, P-bombers talk trash about other people inside and outside of the industry; other party professionals, vendors and clients..
02:36:39 <monqy> Whether they know it or not, dropping P-bombs works 100% against them.
02:37:20 <elliott> In my humble opinion, Charles Barkley is the greatest on-air talent we have in the United States; I can honestly say that with a straight face.
02:37:20 <elliott> He is completely honest and if you can't laugh while watching him on a broadcast then something may be wrong with you.
02:37:20 <elliott> Last night, the Orlando Magic advanced to the NBA Finals by knocking off LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers. However the highlight of the night for me came when Charles Barkley called his producer a p***y on air.
02:37:22 <monqy> i'm getting this all from multiple sources i want to be sure i have the right definition
02:37:27 <elliott> Yes, that's right: Charles Barkley really did say that. Talk about coming out of left field.
02:37:37 <elliott> The reason you're not finding anything is because there is no such thing as a phosphorus bomb today. The proper name is "incendiary bomb with white phosphorus", and it was outclassed by napalm since Korean War.
02:37:40 <elliott> it's the reporters with NO understanding of military terms, that invent names like "phosphorus bomb".
02:38:01 <elliott> Neopets "P-bomb" In-Depth Weapon Info | Neopets Battlepedia
02:38:08 <KALLISTI> that has some difficult phonation.
02:38:28 <shachaf> KALLISTI: "its just a terminal emulator that doesnt support greek"
02:38:54 <kmc> called him a p***y
02:38:57 <kmc> called him a PuTTY?
02:39:26 <kmc> i just realized PuTTY is way awesomer if you read it as "Pu TTY" instead of "putty"
02:39:50 <monqy> is a party on air anything like when you have a thing "on ice", like with the ice skating puppets and stuff
02:39:56 <elliott> this p-bomb result looks good but it won't load
02:40:04 <monqy> but maybe now the puppets are in the air
02:40:14 <elliott> Each time we venture outside of our beloved Orange Bubble, we are sure to meet and chat with the many non-Princetonians of the world. It is at this time that we are confronted with a perplexing dilemma that can have far-reaching implications for the rest of the interactions we will have with this person: Do we reveal the fact that we go to Princeton? And if we do, how do we go about it?
02:40:14 <elliott> There seems to be this sense of discomfort, this tendency toward hesitation, whenever a situation arises where we are prompted to disclose the name of our university. This is true not only for Princeton students, but for students of every school that has gained a prestigious reputation. However, to keep the focus on us, there is a Princeton-specific phrase that one of my classmates once used for this sort of university disclosure that I will use
02:40:15 <elliott> henceforth, and that phrase is “dropping the P-bomb.”
02:40:27 <elliott> wow this might be the most pretentious thing ever written
02:40:38 <shachaf> i have a check which is cached
02:40:44 <elliott> When entering into a conversation with a stranger of the non-Princetonian variety, the accepted protocol is not to first ask what res college the person is from, what they’re planning on majoring in and the other banal college questions we like to ask each other, but to start off more broadly. Introductions do usually include information about what people do with their lives, however, and it is a normal convention to ask college-age-looking peo
02:40:44 <elliott> ple if and where they go to school.
02:40:44 <elliott> When this question arises, we have two viable options: the straight P-bomb route or the New Jersey route. Many of us, I’ve learned, like to first choose the New Jersey route, where we simply answer the question of what college we go to with “ I go to school in New Jersey.”
02:41:09 <kmc> 'did they teach you that word at Talk Like a Dick School'
02:41:12 <elliott> The first possibility is this: We are not uncomfortable with dropping the P-bomb at all. In fact, maybe it’s our favorite thing to do. Maybe we love that moment when people ask us where we go to school so much that we draw it out, make it last longer, make a production out of it. They ask what school we go to, we name a state instead. Answering in this vague way effectively doubles the number of questions we get to answer about where we go to s
02:41:12 <elliott> chool, and we love that. And the suspense! We create this awesome level of suspense so that when they ask question number two — “Where in New Jersey?” — we can really drive it home with a nice, resounding “Princeton!”
02:41:33 <elliott> oh no it has 18 comments but the cache doesn't have them
02:41:48 <kmc> cache for your warhol
02:43:00 <shachaf> elliott: is plutonium still dangerous now that it's not named after a planet
02:44:26 <kmc> are amazon mp3 songs watermarked
02:44:32 <kmc> 5 year article in wirde says they are not
02:44:36 <kmc> weird magazine
02:44:39 <KALLISTI> I think shachaf has lost his mind
02:44:54 <KALLISTI> too much referential transparency.
02:45:27 <Bike> kmc: how would you tell if they're watermarked?
02:45:34 <kmc> i probably can't
02:45:39 <kmc> that is why i am asking other people
02:45:45 <Bike> 'cos i have a few songs from amazon and I haven't noticed anything
02:45:53 <kmc> for example someone in this channel might be jeff bezos's secret confidant
02:46:01 <Bike> other than the weird program you have to use to download albums for some damn reason
02:46:03 <kmc> if it's at all competent it would not be hear-able
02:46:05 <kmc> yeah what's with that program
02:46:08 <kmc> i have some open source workalike
02:46:18 <shachaf> kmc: The id3 tag says Amazon!
02:46:37 <kmc> [connection reset by peer]
02:46:42 <kmc> [kmc died on the way to his home planet]
02:46:51 <Bike> «All tracks were originally sold in 256 kilobits-per-second variable bitrate MP3 format without per-customer watermarking or DRM; however some tracks are now watermarked.» ok
02:47:06 <elliott> without watermarking with watermarking
02:47:12 <kmc> 256 kilobits-per-second variable bitrate motion picture experts' group layer III format
02:47:45 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=dm_adp_uits?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200422000
02:47:55 <kmc> successor of successor of successor of zero
02:48:10 <kmc> long live one
02:48:47 <shachaf> elliott: "lazy nats in lambdabot?????"
02:49:50 <zzo38> If you have multiple copies purchased could you use that to eliminate watermarks?
02:50:00 <kmc> Bike: i use clamz
02:50:03 <kmc> it's in debian
02:50:05 <kmc> works all rite
02:50:28 <shachaf> zzo38: Sounds like a fun watermarking scheme.
02:50:28 <KALLISTI> zzo38: yes. mv nowatermark.mp3 watermark.mp3
02:51:00 <shachaf> Such that given a file with two different watermarks you can't get an unwatermarked version.
02:52:54 <zzo38> KALLISTI: Not what I mean. I mean that multiple customer purchase it, combine it, to make it such that you now have a new watermark which is difficult to trace to the individuals unless you know the key you used.
02:55:36 <tswett> I see I've been quoted.
02:55:53 <tswett> I wonder if I was quoted saying that there is no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely defines the natural numbers.
02:56:06 <tswett> ...Gee, there's no computable set of aximos in first-order logic that uniquely defines the natural numbers.
02:58:00 <tswett> Good job, you've successfully broken mathematics.
02:58:20 <tswett> This will cause the world to explode in 1,000 days.
02:58:46 <kmc> so how bout them natural numbers, eh? ain't no computable set of axioms what can uniquely define them
02:59:58 <tswett> It makes me want to, like, postulate two hypothetical non-isomorphic standard models of the natural numbers.
03:01:00 <tswett> Let's do that now. Let Na be a model of the natural numbers in which Goldbach's conjecture is false, and Nb be a model of the natural numbers in which Goldbach's conjecture is true.
03:01:06 <shachaf> kmc: not in first order logic
03:01:41 <tswett> So in Na, there exists a natural number (call it g) that cannot be written as the sum of two primes. But in Nb, there is no such natural numbers.
03:01:58 <tswett> Does g also exist in Nb? If so, then Nb must have some prime numbers that are absent from Na, right?
03:02:09 <zzo38> Is Goldbach's conjecture undecidable? Does it depend on models of natural numbers?
03:02:24 <tswett> zzo38: yes if and only if yes.
03:02:51 <tswett> I think it doesn't make much sense to say that Na and Nb both contain g, but Nb contains numbers smaller than g that Na does not contain.
03:02:55 <zzo38> O, but other than that it mean you don't know?
03:03:03 <kmc> what's really crazy is that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadwiger%E2%80%93Nelson_problem might depend on set theoretic axioms
03:03:17 <tswett> zzo38: ...I think that's right.
03:03:51 <tswett> So what does make sense to me is to say that Na contains all the numbers that Nb contains, and then some.
03:03:57 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen).
03:04:13 <zzo38> Are there really different models of natural numbers which are not equivalent?
03:04:37 <tswett> zzo38: well, it depends on what you mean by "models of natural numbers", exactly. If you mean "models of the first-order Peano axioms", then yes, certainly.
03:04:37 <zzo38> I would think: data Natural = Zero | Succ !Natural;
03:05:00 <tswett> That's not a set of first-order axioms, though; that's a Haskell statement.
03:05:40 <zzo38> I know. But I thought it is equivalent?
03:06:10 <shachaf> COLON HYPHEN-MINUS LEFT PARENTHESIS?????
03:06:47 <zzo38> Well, if you ignore bottom, I mean.
03:06:53 <tswett> kmc: I dunno, that's not so crazy to me. In the past, the real numbers used to seem ill-defined to me. Then I learned how they were defined, but they still seemed all iffy and abstract.
03:07:12 <tswett> zzo38: well, yeah, that's kind of what the problem is. How do you say "ignore bottom" in first-order logic?
03:09:08 <kmc> real numbers is hax
03:09:21 <tswett> Okay, so Nb is a model of the natural numbers containing a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. Na is a model containing no such thing. We're also postulating that Nb is a supermodel of Na.
03:09:32 <tswett> Say that a "nubber" is a number that's in Nb, but not in Na.
03:10:13 <tswett> And a "namber" is one that's in Na. Aye?
03:10:25 <kmc> is it a hyphen? or is it a minus? only your wallet knows for sure.
03:10:50 <shachaf> "don't believe the hype hen"
03:11:02 <tswett> So the nambers are closed under addition, right? And multiplication, I think... exponentiation I'm not sure about.
03:11:11 <kmc> tswett: by "standard models" did you mean "non-standard models" above?
03:11:33 <kmc> how can they both be standard?
03:11:36 <tswett> I was kind of going for multiple standard models.
03:11:48 <tswett> Well, how do you define "standard" here?
03:11:52 <kmc> oh because we're talking about two different universes, with different results for t he goldbach conjecture
03:11:58 <kmc> and the "standard" model in each one
03:12:12 <kmc> but it's not thought that goldbach is actually independent of axioms, ja?
03:12:37 <tswett> It seems perfectly plausible that it is.
03:13:04 <kmc> i have no idea how to even think about the plausibility of that statement
03:13:09 <kmc> anyway please do proceed with your original train of thought
03:13:27 <tswett> Well, does Goldbach's conjecture seem like it's probably decidable to you?
03:13:31 <zzo38> But I thought, natural numbers is just zero and successor? Therefore how can there be different models following this specification which are different Goldbach's? Since you can define addition, multiplication, etc, using finite numbers. Using something like Typographical Number Theory that might not be the case though, but if you define like zero and successor instead it seem.
03:13:32 <kmc> sea dot sea
03:13:33 <tswett> It's independent of the axioms if and only if it's undecidable.
03:14:09 <tswett> zzo38: "just zero and successor" isn't a set of first-order axioms, either.
03:14:52 <shachaf> kmc: You should come back to #cslounge!
03:15:29 <zzo38> tswett: Well, yes, "just zero and successor" is like the Haskell statement I mentioned above, instead. Therefore, do you need a set of first-order axioms which means this specifically?
03:15:30 <tswett> The first-order Peano axioms are a set of first-order axioms. They're infinite, but they're also a computable set.
03:15:53 <kmc> shachaf: like a thief in the night
03:16:16 <tswett> zzo38: well, I'm *talking about* sets of first-order axioms.
03:16:30 <tswett> So if you want to talk about the same thing that I'm talking about, then yes, you need a set of first-order axioms.
03:17:35 <Sgeo> I hate politeness.
03:17:51 <Sgeo> It makes it impossible to ask someone "Hey, does this site work well for you" and actually get useful info
03:18:37 -!- tswett has set topic: E_TOPTOOOLD | the good news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises works. the bad news is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:19:06 <kmc> what does it do
03:19:44 <Sgeo> kmc, what, you want to test?
03:20:59 <zzo38> In Wikipedia "Peano axioms", if you just use 2,3,4,5 for eqality, and then you should define it. Is the zero and successor can be made the axioms from that? Due to such things as induction and so on, possibly not... and, is it infinite? They list nine axioms.
03:21:28 <kmc> /usr/bin/make-loud-noises
03:21:41 <Bike> they're axiom schema, aren't they
03:22:01 <tswett> zzo38: axiom 9 is stated twice. First, it's stated as a second-order axiom, not a first-order axiom; second, it's stated as an infinite axiom schema.
03:22:59 <zzo38> O, it is an axiom schema. Now I can understand.
03:23:26 <zzo38> TNT has induction as a rule rather than axiom.
03:24:49 <zzo38> They also say "if there is a proof that starts from just these axioms and derives a contradiction such as 0 = 1, then the axioms are inconsistent, and don't define anything" but, if there would be such thing even if you omit axiom 7 or axiom 3, does it define anything?
03:25:07 <kmc> "In particular, he gained international notoriety for his claims that blowing up the Moon would solve virtually every problem of human existence"
03:25:54 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Abian
03:26:12 <tswett> zzo38: uhh, let me rephrase your question, and you can tell me if I rephrased it correctly.
03:26:50 <tswett> "Suppose that, if you remove axioms from the Peano axioms, you can get an inconsistent system. Then are the Peano axioms inconsistent?"
03:27:01 <Bike> «Abian said that "Those critics who say 'Dismiss Abian's ideas' are very close to those who dismissed Galileo."» usenet has the best cranks.
03:28:13 <zzo38> tswett: No. That is not what I meant. I meant that if you have 0=1 it seem would be to contradict the axioms I specified. So, if it is inconsistent, and then does that make it not inconsistent?
03:28:59 <tswett> I don't know what you mean by "the axioms [you specified]", nor by the "it" in "if it is inconsistent", nor the "it" in "does that make it not inconsistent".
03:29:15 <tswett> s/ specified]/] specified/
03:29:50 <zzo38> kmc: Why would he say such things? Perhaps if they destroy humans it would solve that problem, if destroying the moon would have such effect, but still it won't help since it would mess up everything else too. Best way is allow planets to move how they do, to keep the solar system in order.
03:30:17 <zzo38> tswett: I mean axiom 3 and 7, I mean if you have 0=1 even if removing one of those two axioms.
03:30:48 <Bike> tswett: so, looking at tennenbaum's theorem... could you have an uncountable model of peano with computable arithmetic?
03:31:01 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, sorry, I don't understand what you said, and I don't understand your attempts to get me to understand what you said.
03:31:23 <zzo38> tswett: Oops, sorry!!!!
03:32:05 <tswett> I thought Tennenbaum's theorem said that no nonstandard model of Peano arithmetic can be recursive; it actually says that no *countable* nonstandard model of Peano arithmetic can be recursive.
03:32:43 <Bike> that's what I was referring to, yeah.
03:32:59 <tswett> Bike: well, the thing is, I don't think "computable" makes sense as a property of uncountable sets. We only speak of the computability of a set of it contains only finite strings, I think. And no uncountable set contains only finite strings.
03:33:49 <Bike> yeah, that's why I said computable arithmetic instead of computable set.
03:34:52 <tswett> "Computable function" can be defined as "function that, when considered as a set, is a computable set".
03:35:16 <tswett> And "computable arithmetic" presumably means "collection of arithmetic functions, each of which is a computable function".
03:36:18 <Bike> so no models with computably dealt with nonstandard numbers, then
03:40:47 <tswett> Yeah, that sounds true.
03:52:06 <elliott> did you know there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely identifies when tswett will shut up about there being no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that can uniquely define the natural numbers
03:52:53 <tswett> I will shut up about it after a non-standard amount of time.
03:53:16 <monqy> how about right now
03:53:22 <monqy> alt. in the past????
03:53:49 <tswett> Nope, it's only been 23 seconds. 23 is a standard number.
03:53:59 <kmc> how about eleventeen
03:54:31 <tswett> Can you give me a first-order formula defining eleventeen?
04:00:35 <pikhq_> 11 = succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ 0
04:00:53 <monqy> > succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ 0
04:01:06 <elliott> did you know there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely identifies what will make tswett shut up about there being no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that can uniquely define the natural numbers
04:01:27 <Fiora> shachaf: sorry, I was away for a bit... also my local time should really be PDT but I kind of forgot how to set it on this linux box
04:02:55 <elliott> Fiora: ln -s /usr/share/zoneinfo/[something] /etc/localtime usually
04:03:20 <elliott> might also be able to do "timedatectl list-timezones" then "timedatectl set-timezone <name>"
04:03:49 <elliott> though daylight savings time should be handled automatically if you have stuff set up properly
04:04:11 <Fiora> ln: creating symbolic link `/etc/localtime': File exists
04:04:15 <Fiora> should I remove it?
04:04:24 <elliott> depends, what does ls -l /etc/localtime give
04:04:38 <Fiora> $ ls -l /etc/localtime
04:04:38 <Fiora> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 118 Jul 27 16:39 /etc/localtime
04:04:55 <elliott> since that should be a symlink :P
04:05:09 <Fiora> I must have botched it at some point <_>
04:05:24 <pikhq_> ln -sf /usr/share/America/Los_Angeles /etc/localtime ;# no?
04:05:45 <Fiora> 20:05 < Fiora> yay it worked
04:06:06 <elliott> pikhq_: i doubt it is /usr/share/America
04:06:17 <elliott> but yes [something] = America/Los_Angeles in my line I think
04:06:27 <elliott> also you might have to reboot for this to work or at least restart programs you care about
04:06:36 <Fiora> IRSSI seems to have taken instantly!
04:07:24 <elliott> this calls for celebration. should welcome some pepole
04:08:08 <kmc> on debian: dpkg-reconfigure tzdata
04:08:27 <Fiora> I'm using an amazon micro instance so I'm stuck with yum
04:08:42 <Fiora> but it worked so I'm not going to fuss with it anymore
04:08:52 <kmc> i am irssi'ing from an ubuntu server ec2 micro instance right now
04:09:00 <kmc> i wonder why you got stuck with fedora
04:09:27 <Fiora> the free tier on amazon only let you use their install I think?
04:09:32 <Fiora> at least it was when I set this thing up
04:09:37 <Fiora> but I might be wrong
04:09:41 <elliott> do EC2 instances cost reasonable amounts of money yet
04:09:46 <kmc> i think that has changed
04:09:51 <kmc> elliott: my micro instance is free for a year :D
04:09:54 <kmc> but in general 'no'
04:10:03 <kmc> i mean it is reasonable if you actually need fancy dynamic scaling
04:10:05 <Fiora> I just use my free micro as an IRC bouncer thing for my irssi
04:10:07 <kmc> i think it's a reasonable fee for that
04:10:24 <kmc> most of their users are not that, they're just startups with too much money who don't think of traditional dedicated hosting
04:10:48 <kmc> i run irssi on ec2 and connect to it with mosh
04:10:50 <kmc> it's pretty sweet
04:11:19 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/
04:11:35 <Fiora> is there a windows client? I use putty right now
04:11:35 <elliott> kmc: how much are the mosh people paying you
04:11:40 <kmc> elliott: nothing
04:11:47 <kmc> i have done some development for mosh though
04:11:48 <elliott> kmc: you should get a raise!!
04:11:52 <kmc> it's just an open source project at mit
04:11:53 <kmc> i know rite
04:11:59 <kmc> Fiora: there is an experimental cygwin port
04:12:33 <Fiora> oh wow, they actually have it inside the cygwin packagemanager
04:12:56 <kmc> cygwin is not the most elegant solution here but nobody has really come forward to do the work for a native windows port
04:13:01 <Fiora> oh, now it's deciding it has to upgrade my entire cygwin installation
04:13:08 <Fiora> probably good to do that anyways.
04:13:29 <Fiora> um, I'm guessing I'd have to install a server on my amazon ec2 instance?
04:13:54 <kmc> yeah it's in fedora
04:13:58 <kmc> you just install the mosh package on the server
04:14:03 <Fiora> >No package mosh available.
04:14:07 <kmc> oh, might be too old
04:14:25 <elliott> at least it's fairly easy to compile mosh yourself
04:14:29 <elliott> since you don't need to set up a daemon or anything
04:14:34 <kmc> yeah the dependencies should be in fedora
04:15:09 <kmc> hey cool netbsd is on there now
04:16:18 -!- ogrom has joined.
04:16:40 <Fiora> oh no it doesn't have protobuf either :<
04:17:03 <Fiora> agh wildly following dependency chains manually
04:17:11 <kmc> that's odd
04:17:38 <Fiora> configure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check
04:18:12 <elliott> do you not have a compiler toolchain installed or something
04:18:19 <Fiora> .... oh. I had gcc but not g++
04:18:24 <Fiora> and nothing had needed g++ yet so I didn't notice
04:18:36 <Fiora> and the configure script somehow got past that check without noticing it was missing I think <_<
04:19:02 <elliott> kmc: nice rant on the mosh issue tracker "I tried using Mosh for the connection persistence, and nothing I read prior to using it gave me a clear indication that it was anything but an ordinary shell with an improved transport. When Mosh discarded some important output I had no idea what was going on, and I wasted a few days (calendar time, several hours actual troubleshooting time) looking at everything else because it didn't occur to me that a
04:19:02 <elliott> tool for persistent connections and better latency would also throw away my data. After that, I can't trust you, not because the way Mosh works is unreasonable, but because the way it is described fails to convey that you can't count on receiving the complete output of any command."
04:19:06 <Fiora> yuuuup that was it
04:19:09 <elliott> (they are complaining because mosh doesn't have scrollback)
04:19:30 <Fiora> okay now to compile on a 1-core 1ghz virtual server thing -_-
04:19:57 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet.
04:20:10 <elliott> Fiora: hey i'm using a 1.33 ghz laptop thing
04:20:36 <elliott> i think it would honestly be faster to compile some things by scping them over to my server
04:20:37 <Fiora> I'm spoiled with my laptop okay >_>
04:20:40 <elliott> and then downloading the binaries
04:20:46 <Jafet> There is memory that's faster than that CPU
04:20:56 <Fiora> Yeah, I had that experience once when I had to play with an, um... I think it was a 600mhz arm
04:21:02 <kmc> yeah i saw that
04:21:18 <pikhq_> Jafet: The memory bus speed might be 1.33GHz, but the RAM's internal clock is at 200MHz.
04:21:25 <pikhq_> As has been the norm for a decade now.
04:22:32 <Fiora> it just feels weird to like, compile on something 20 times slower than my computer
04:23:21 <pikhq_> Try using qemu sometime.
04:24:13 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
04:24:58 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
04:25:07 <shachaf> I didn't think they used that anywhere, this time of year.
04:25:15 <pikhq_> shachaf: America/Los_Angeles . :)
04:25:30 <pikhq_> zoneinfo time zone naming is so much better.
04:25:30 <Fiora> okay PST I guess ^^;;
04:25:32 <Fiora> I always forget which is which
04:25:36 <shachaf> That's the time zone to be in!
04:25:42 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Nov 19 20:25:39 2012
04:25:51 <lambdabot> Local time for Fiora is Mon Nov 19 20:25:46 2012
04:26:00 <Bike> does it just use dcc, or what
04:26:02 <shachaf> Fiora: Hmm, looks like you're 7 seconds ahead of me.
04:26:08 <Fiora> the message came later
04:26:09 * pikhq_ lives basically on the MST meridian!
04:26:16 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Mon Nov 19 21:26:12 2012
04:26:27 <Fiora> I think the 7 seconds is just the gap between them...?
04:26:30 <elliott> i don't really like zoneinfo naming
04:26:34 <elliott> singles out single areas weirdly
04:26:35 <Bike> i believe that is The Joke, fiora.
04:26:52 <pikhq_> elliott: It's saner than any other timezone naming scheme I've seen though.
04:26:54 <elliott> have you noticed your eyes are pointing away from each other
04:27:06 <elliott> pikhq_: well UTC+n and UTC-n are pretty good
04:27:08 <pikhq_> Other than, of course, constant offsets from UTC, but that requires saner *time zones* in the first place.
04:27:12 <shachaf> Bike: Are you also in PST?
04:27:22 <shachaf> San Francisco is The Place To Be, as you know.
04:27:35 <pikhq_> elliott: Doesn't tell enough *at all*.
04:27:49 <Bike> shachaf: rather far from LA, but yes
04:27:55 <shachaf> elliott: hi should foo :: Fol.Foldable f => f a -> [a]; foo = ($ []) . appEndo . Fol.foldMap (\x -> Endo (x:)) be a function
04:28:26 <shachaf> Assuming you mean Los Angeles.
04:28:27 <Bike> what's appEndo? applicative endomorphism
04:28:28 <pikhq_> elliott: To give you an idea: the state of Indiana has *11* different zoneinfo entries.
04:28:33 <elliott> yeah but indiana doesn't exist
04:28:39 <monqy> shachaf i need some "lens help"
04:28:49 <elliott> Bike: newtype Endo a = Endo { appEndo :: a -> a }
04:28:52 <monqy> im sory i cant go through with this joke
04:28:55 <elliott> i.e. appEndo :: Endo a -> (a -> a)
04:28:59 <Bike> I wonder if laos has ever been called LA in the history of the universe
04:28:59 <monqy> elliott can you finish it
04:29:03 <monqy> deliver the punchline
04:29:22 <elliott> Bike: well laos is .la isn't it
04:29:25 <elliott> and that tld is used for los angeles!
04:29:39 <shachaf> Fiora: help what are you doing in laos
04:29:54 <Fiora> I'm south of LA, not in laos
04:29:55 <monqy> the delivery is wack
04:30:05 <Bike> I kind of instintively hate cctlds though, so I refuse to acknowledge their existence, sorry about that
04:30:28 <Bike> i think i've been in LA a couple times, roasting on the asphalt gridlock probably
04:30:31 <zzo38> I don't like daylight saving time. Also, the time zones is not designed best but I don't know what is best. One way is using precise time zones using same hours/minutes/second as the angle.
04:30:54 <shachaf> zzo38 has a plan to redesign time zones?
04:31:01 <shachaf> elliott: "took me by surprise"
04:31:14 <zzo38> (When the (sidereal) hour is angle, 1 hour = 15 degrees, which is used to measure right ascensions and hour angles.)
04:31:22 <monqy> elliott: but how!!!
04:31:26 <zzo38> However, solar time is not exactly like UTC it is only by average.
04:31:30 <shachaf> monqy: use "your creativity"
04:31:31 <monqy> shachaf: can you do it for me
04:31:54 <shachaf> there comes a time in every monqys life
04:32:01 <shachaf> when that monqy must finish their own jokes
04:32:21 <elliott> monqy: for once in my life i'm gonna have to agree with shachaf
04:32:31 <monqy> shachaf: im sorry its up to you now. search for "the joke" on the Lens documentation at http://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Lens/ using the Lens documention's Search It feature
04:32:49 <zzo38> Actually I don't have plan to redesign time zones. I just have some ideas having to do with time zones.
04:32:57 <shachaf> monqy: help whats a search.php
04:33:11 <monqy> shachaf: surprise you got joked
04:33:23 <monqy> imo look at search.php's contents
04:33:28 <elliott> monqy: that was a pretty bad delivery monqy
04:33:31 <monqy> "it includes the shell command executed to do the search"
04:33:33 <elliott> you screwed up your one chance to make that joke
04:33:44 <kmc> phphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphp
04:33:44 <monqy> elliott: i told you i couldnt do it!!!!
04:33:50 <elliott> monqy: you didn't even include the fact that you are personally using lens currently!!
04:33:57 <elliott> im sorry monqy its just not good enough
04:33:59 <monqy> shachaf: the joke is im using this thing
04:34:00 <Bike> it... downloads the php
04:34:09 <kmc> ρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρη
04:34:29 <elliott> monqy: its not optional. this is your penance
04:34:41 <monqy> may i asked to be kicked
04:34:44 <monqy> it's what shachaf would do
04:34:47 <monqy> and you agree with shachaf right
04:35:50 <shachaf> monqy: i dont want to get kicked!!
04:35:55 <monqy> elliott: you disagree with shachaf right
04:35:56 <shachaf> dont "spread rumours" monqy
04:36:44 <shachaf> elliott: "i really cant figure out this lens issue"
04:37:02 <monqy> elliott: ooh ooh can i make the joke now
04:37:04 <shachaf> elliott: "maybe its because i spend all my time complaining about it instead of thinking about it"
04:37:24 <monqy> search the lens document for "the issue". i am using this software.
04:37:29 <monqy> elliott: did i do it good
04:37:38 <elliott> leave before you embarrass yourself further
04:37:50 <shachaf> monqy: we all love you monqy
04:38:12 <monqy> make me not tolerate it!!!!
04:38:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: "should i read that book"
04:39:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
04:40:00 <shachaf> Hawaii did experiment with DST for three weeks between April 30, 1933 and May 21, 1933; there is no known official record as to why it was implemented or discontinued.[18][unreliable source?] Hawaii has never observed daylight saving time under the Uniform Time Act, having opted out of the Act's provisions in 1967.[19]
04:40:03 <elliott> @tell monqy you can come back now
04:41:37 <Fiora> um, kmc, I installed protobuf from source (just configure and sudo make install...?) but mosh says it can't find it
04:41:49 <Fiora> "package protobuf was not found in the pkg-config search path"
04:43:19 <shachaf> Fiora: What distribution-thing are you using?
04:43:33 <Fiora> it's the amazon ec2 fedora thing
04:43:53 * shachaf randomly wonders whether `ldconfig` will fix it.
04:44:02 <shachaf> Maybe it's an issue of paths and /usr/local/?
04:44:10 <shachaf> Why not install protobuf from a package?
04:44:19 <Fiora> because the system doesn't seem to have it as a package :<
04:44:19 <tswett> RHR Hypertext... Rearranger?
04:45:41 <Fiora> I guess I can try rebuilding it and stuffing it in /usr...
04:46:12 * shachaf doesn't know how pkg-config finds things.
04:46:21 <Fiora> I have no idea either >_<
04:46:27 <elliott> PKG_CONFIG_PATH or something
04:46:32 <lambdabot> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/protobuf
04:46:43 <elliott> apparently it is PKG_CONFIG_PATH
04:47:00 <Fiora> sudo yum install protobuf
04:47:00 <Fiora> Loaded plugins: fastestmirror, priorities, security, update-motd, upgrade-helper
04:47:03 <elliott> also did i actually just get monqy to leave
04:47:04 <Fiora> Loading mirror speeds from cached hostfile * amzn-main: packages.us-east-1.amazonaws.com
04:47:06 <elliott> i didn't want to do that!!
04:47:07 <Fiora> * amzn-updates: packages.us-east-1.amazonaws.com
04:47:10 <Fiora> Setting up Install Process
04:47:12 <Fiora> No package protobuf available.
04:47:12 <shachaf> elliott: "ok but what if that variable is unset"
04:47:24 <shachaf> Maybe it's protobuf-devel or something.
04:47:36 <Fiora> search finds no matches
04:47:57 <Fiora> sorry... bleh I will just keep using putty I guess, this is a hassle
04:48:07 <shachaf> Fiora: Maybe #mosh would know.
04:48:15 <elliott> well man pkg-config documents what it does when the path isn't empty
04:48:53 * Fiora goes back to playing civ and reading wikipedia articles on nuclear isomers
04:50:53 <shachaf> Fiora: You should learn about lenses instead!
04:51:07 <shachaf> "lenses: the nuclear isomers of the 21st century??"
04:51:08 <Sgeo> Oh, I forgot to list my list
04:51:25 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy isn't here, coppro except I think you're not on the list. List.
04:51:30 <Fiora> maybe metameterial lenses? those sound kind of cool I think
04:51:45 <elliott> Sgeo: monqy explicitly told you to add Fiora to the list!!
04:51:48 <Bike> they make lenses out of metamaterials now, huh
04:52:00 <Sgeo> Fiora, do you want to be on the list?
04:52:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: Fiora does not wish to be on the list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:52:06 <Fiora> what is "the list"? >_<
04:52:11 <Fiora> everyone keeps talking about it but I don't know what it is
04:52:20 <Sgeo> Someone should explain
04:52:36 <shachaf> Fiora: You wan't to be on the list.
04:52:39 <elliott> no i think it is better that way
04:52:43 <shachaf> (That's a contraction for "want not".)
04:52:51 <Fiora> this channel is confusing ;-;
04:53:15 <Sgeo> I'm going to break down in 2 minutes and explain it privately
04:53:23 <shachaf> Sgeo: Wait, what *is* the list?
04:53:37 <shachaf> Is it just Homestuck updates or what?
04:53:40 <Sgeo> Just noticed Fiora with the explanation
04:53:49 <shachaf> Sgeo: help i never got an explanation
04:53:50 <elliott> brimstone rains from the sky
04:53:57 <elliott> the truth of The List comes to torture us
04:54:09 <Fiora> Sgeo: ohhh!! put me on the list then
04:54:13 <Fiora> that sounds super useful
04:54:18 <elliott> all die in an endless fire of suffering
04:54:38 <Bike> perhaps you could make a list of ways the truth of The List will come to torture us, elliott.
04:54:58 <Sgeo> It's funnier to leave shachaf out of the loop. Although cruel. But funny.
04:55:07 <elliott> is my List not good enough
04:55:15 <Bike> wait is it a list or a List
04:55:25 <Fiora> does it implement the List interface?
04:55:38 <Bike> i dunno, but there is a difference, so it's probably important
04:55:44 <shachaf> Fiora: help are you java :'(
04:55:52 <Fiora> um, I know a little java but I don't use it much
04:56:03 <shachaf> you should use Real Languages
04:56:15 <Fiora> um..... do C and x86 assembly count?
04:56:23 <elliott> the only Real Language is TECO
04:56:31 <shachaf> Fiora: or you can use esolangs
04:56:31 <Bike> you're not nearly swaggerly enough to be a Real Programmer, fiora. sorry.
04:56:41 <Sgeo> The only real language is @
04:56:44 <Fiora> I ama fake programmer then
04:57:03 <Bike> complex numbers joke here
04:57:07 <Sgeo> elliott, it is if I rotate it 90 degrees!
04:57:13 * Fiora scribbles assembly opcodes on Bike's sleeve
04:57:21 <elliott> that's a bad place to put opcodes
04:57:33 <shachaf> Fiora: lets have a low level programming contest
04:57:38 <shachaf> Fiora: how many bytes do you know
04:57:49 <Bike> how big are these bytes
04:58:02 <Sgeo> What a boring answer.
04:58:16 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott> octets hth
04:58:35 <Sgeo> 0-bit bytes are the best bytes.
04:58:43 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> octets hth
04:58:44 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott> `delquote 867
04:58:47 <HackEgo> 868) <elliott> `delquote 867
04:59:16 <Sgeo> `addquote <Sgeo> `delquote 869
04:59:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: deelquote: not found
04:59:34 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
04:59:39 <HackEgo> 866) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
04:59:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo> `delquote 869
04:59:59 <shachaf> Fiora: "wait one moment did i know you from another channel once"
05:00:05 <Bike> I had no idea a quotation system could be this confusing.
05:00:08 <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote 867
05:00:12 <HackEgo> 867) <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote 867
05:00:16 <Bike> good job, hackego engineering. good job
05:00:17 <HackEgo> *poof* <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote 867
05:00:20 <shachaf> Fiora: "are you from new zealand"
05:00:29 <Sgeo> `addquote <elliott> `delquote 867
05:00:32 <HackEgo> 867) <elliott> `delquote 867
05:00:40 <Fiora> um, no, I am from southern california
05:00:57 <shachaf> I once knew someone in another channel whose nick started with F who lived in southern California.
05:01:06 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> `delquote 867
05:01:06 <shachaf> But moved there from New Zealand or something?
05:01:20 <Fiora> I was born here...
05:01:38 <Sgeo> `addquote <elliott> Sgeo: can you stop
05:01:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addquote: not found
05:01:47 <shachaf> Sgeo: Stop it. It's annoying.
05:01:54 <shachaf> But now I live in southern northern California!
05:02:23 <elliott> Sgeo: is the point just to annoy me or whatever
05:02:27 <elliott> because shachaf already does that a lot better
05:02:31 <Sgeo> But that was a fake addquote
05:02:40 <Sgeo> I didn't think a fake addquote would be annoying
05:02:46 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:02:59 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, I thought I stopped the annoying thing!
05:03:08 -!- Jafet has joined.
05:03:44 <elliott> the real question: what is annoying
05:03:58 <elliott> @ is an anaconda that curled itself up
05:04:24 <Jafet> Is it related to python or ASP?
05:06:14 <shachaf> kmc: I don't have any backups.
05:06:19 <kmc> beyond 1984, beyond 2001, beyond love, beyond death: @
05:06:21 <shachaf> Should I get an external hard drive and back up to it?
05:06:46 <kmc> you should get an internal soft ride or front down from it
05:06:59 <kmc> that said, yes
05:07:21 <elliott> @ would make a pretty good novel IMO
05:07:27 <shachaf> Should I get an external hard drive or an internal hard drive + a box to put a hard drive in?
05:08:25 <kmc> don't have a strong opinion
05:08:26 <shachaf> Hmm, prices have gone down to pre-flood levels.
05:08:30 <kmc> i usually do the latter
05:08:40 <kmc> but that's more because i have one or the other part lying around already
05:09:39 <shachaf> Maybe I should use my $50 Tarsnap credit.
05:15:16 <Fiora> "Maybe that clown could have helped you understand what you're supposed to do in this empty wasteland, but no, you had better ideas. And all of them were bullets." caliborning
05:17:13 <Fiora> I think homestuck is going to collapse from the weight of its own meta
05:35:42 <kmc> http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/00112432/
05:38:13 <Gregor> kmc: http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/10193197/
05:40:27 <Sgeo> What's so interesting about the pasta?
05:40:57 <Bike> it is elk-shaped, to remind you of home.
05:41:17 * Sgeo is currently eating pasta
05:41:33 <kmc> Gregor: haha
05:41:37 <kmc> Sgeo: gross
05:41:56 <kmc> Gregor: it suggests i buy it with a "KOLON floor protector"
05:42:15 <Sgeo> There is no parmesan cheese. I require parmesan cheese. In the absense of parmesan cheese I use ketchup
05:42:26 <kmc> that is gross and terrible and bad and you should feel bad
05:43:04 <Sgeo> I actually tend to eat more when eating it with ketchup
05:43:13 <Gregor> “In the absense of parmesan cheese I use ketchup”
05:43:23 <Bike> yeah how does that even make sense
05:43:25 <Sgeo> But mixing ketchup and parmesan cheese is gross, I've tried it.
05:43:29 <Bike> is ketchup a cheese now
05:43:44 <Sgeo> Bike, it's a foodstuff that adds some calories and nutrients.
05:43:48 <pikhq_> Gregor: Trust me, that's not just your fnarf.
05:43:56 <Sgeo> And makes it taste better.
05:44:03 <Bike> I don't have any parmesan cheese, so in the absence of parmesan cheese I dump chocolate on it
05:44:25 <Sgeo> What's so bad about pasta+ketchup?
05:44:57 <Bike> as of vatican ii it's a valid basis for excommunication, for one
05:45:34 <kmc> as was set forth in the famous papal bull "De ketchup nongustabilis"
05:47:02 <Gregor> Sgeo: That seems like the kind of thing people would eat in the great depression.
05:47:10 <kmc> some heretic sects were using ketchup and pasta instead of wine and bread for the sacrament of the eucharist
05:48:08 <kmc> some friends of mine had a bet to see who could last the longest eating only free condiments from the uni dining hall
05:49:23 <ion> I hope Distance gets enough votes in Greenlight. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=103111305
05:49:41 <Sgeo> I think I like ketchup+pasta more than parmesan cheese+pasta, but parmesan cheese is probably healthier
05:54:14 <Sgeo> Normal people eat pasta + tomato sauce, right? What's the difference between tomato sauce and ketchup?
05:54:52 <pikhq_> Ketchup is spiced much differently, cooked to a different consistency, much more vinegary, and has lots of sugar.
05:55:52 <kmc> it's weird that i didn't notice how sweet ketchup is until someone pointed it out to me
05:56:12 <kmc> it's vinegar syrup with a slight tomato theme
05:56:29 <pikhq_> It's a sweet and sour sauce.
05:56:43 <kmc> hm, i hadn't thought of that, but yes
05:56:44 <Sgeo> So that's good. I don't particularly like tomatos, except as part of pizza.
05:57:07 <kmc> Sgeo: seriously though, if you like it, eat it, don't let us tell you that it's gross even though it is
05:57:18 <kmc> taste is so arbitrary
05:57:26 <Bike> (it is still really gross though)
05:57:47 <Sgeo> When I get more parmesan cheese I'll start using that again
05:58:01 <Sgeo> Although parmesan cheese is really only really really good with shell-shaped pasta
05:58:12 <kmc> why is that
05:58:18 <Sgeo> (There's a nostalgia factor at work here)
05:58:33 <shachaf> kmc: you know what else is sweet?!
05:58:53 <Sgeo> In.. pre-k? Kindergarten? We had a bunch of foods with some themes and one of them was "sand and shells"
05:58:53 <shachaf> (the point is, balsamic vinegar)
05:58:58 <lambdabot> edwardk says: <edwardk> is there a haskell client for the quantum random bit generator service? <edwardk> i was joking that i tend to flip coins as to which project i work on that way at least in
05:58:58 <lambdabot> some universe there is probably a me working on the more interesting one, but it strikes me that it would be nicer to actually have that coin flip hinge on a simpler quantum event
05:59:04 <Sgeo> Later on, I had my mom make some for me, and I liked it
05:59:14 <Bike> is that thing still up?
05:59:17 <Sgeo> So, that's kind of how pasta+parmesan cheese became a staple food for me
05:59:35 <elliott> http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ apparently
06:00:20 <Bike> i wonder how many angry emails about what "random" _really_ means they get.
06:03:48 <zzo38> I prefer pasta with both tomato sauce and parmesan cheese.
06:13:30 <Sgeo> I finish more of my pasta when I put ketchup on it
06:13:40 <Sgeo> Don't know if that really means I prefer ketchup+pasta or not
06:17:27 <elliott> hey kmc should i go to sleep
06:20:38 <Sgeo> Sleep is as optional as food.
06:20:51 <Sgeo> (For some reason, you saying "Food is not optional" is stuck in my mind)
06:21:07 <kmc> flip a coin
06:21:31 <shachaf> elliott: which one was 2 again
06:21:40 <shachaf> now we have to flip a coin for which one 2 meant
06:22:47 <Sgeo> I'm not drunk, I don't know why I've been acting weird
06:26:35 <zzo38> I have played Dungeons&Dragons game today. I am recording it at this time.
06:30:04 <zzo38> Are you weird in general?
06:43:46 <zzo38> Some audio chips interleave the channel output instead of mixed. There are also some with nonlinear mixing. Such thing may be use in musics made with Csound and so on for special effects?
07:04:04 <zzo38> Another special effect I may want to use is posterize, and perhaps, solarize. These thing could be done probably with UDO or with plugins.
07:05:13 <zzo38> Could be any musics with Proce esolang?
07:24:03 <FireFly> I'm wearing the same shirt ANdy is. I feel 300 times more awesome now.
07:24:19 <FireFly> (that was an accidental middle-click)
07:25:28 <HackEgo> 17) <FireFly> Meh <FireFly> ._. \ 62) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
07:25:52 <shachaf> FireFly: How long have you been around here?
07:26:20 <FireFly> I don't remember, but not *that* long, I don't think
07:27:24 <FireFly> My first edit on the wiki was 19 dec 2008
07:28:37 <fizzie> [2009-01-10 23:41:13] ... FireFly [n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se] has joined #esoteric
07:28:45 <fizzie> (Though my logs do have gaps.)
07:29:32 <FireFly> That's hardly long compared to the age of the channel though
07:29:48 <shachaf> hardly long compared to the age of the UNIVERSE!!!!!!
07:29:57 <shachaf> elliott: "oops i just got FireFly"
07:30:27 <fizzie> [2008-06-21 23:41:06] ... shachaf [n=shachaf@66.17.178.32] has joined #esoteric
07:31:36 <fizzie> Then you did not say anything and disappeared at some point during June 2008, since there are no more mentions pre-2011-01-04.
07:35:06 <fizzie> That's what my logs look like, at least.
07:35:14 <fizzie> Or, wait, I had a | head in there.
07:35:38 <fizzie> Well, that explains why it ended so abruptly.
07:36:10 <elliott> did shachaf say things in 2008
07:36:10 <fizzie> Even without the | head I don't see any actual comments.
07:36:16 <fizzie> [2008-06-27 20:03:07] < tusho> AAA_AAA ais523 AnMaster atsampson augur bsmntbombdood cctoide cherez clog Corun Deewiant Dewi fizzie ihope Ilari jamesstanley Judofyr lament lifthras1ir mtve oklopol Polar puzzlet RodgerTheGreat sebbu sekhmet Sgeo shachaf SimonRC Slereah_ timotiis tusho
07:36:22 <fizzie> [2008-09-04 09:19:48] ... shachaf [n=shachaf@66.17.178.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
07:36:30 <fizzie> There are several other joins and parts and netsplits.
07:36:34 <shachaf> those are secret ip addresses
07:36:54 <fizzie> Your computer is broadcasting an IP address!
07:41:10 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FKGWFoIjvw
07:42:08 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
08:07:49 -!- nooga has joined.
08:09:34 -!- Jafet has joined.
08:09:44 <zzo38> I managed to scry the king now I know his favorite color!
08:11:44 <zzo38> No. I wrote it in "level20.tex" file recording this Dungeons&Dragons game, and I found out, it is purple.
08:12:00 <zzo38> Not because the king said so, but because the royal wizard said so.
08:12:14 <fizzie> "256 shades of gray", a book about the encoding of grayscale JPEG images.
08:12:36 <shachaf> zzo38: are you the royal wizard
08:12:38 <zzo38> In order to confirm, if it is who it says it is, when I used a psychic communication link, but he doesn't know me so we have to ask wizard in that way.
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08:16:32 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:17:05 <zzo38> shachaf: You see in the recording story file, who it is! Even I don't know their name, though.
08:17:52 <shachaf> FireFly: I bet you feel like figuring out taking for me.
08:18:26 <fizzie> What does the #esoteric "welcome bag" contain?
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08:21:20 <monqy> my welcome bag was being asked what my purpose here was......................................this was when i first(second?(third?)) joined
08:21:34 <lambdabot> Applicative f => Int -> SimpleLensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f) s a -> SimpleLensLike f s a
08:21:49 <FireFly> I should read up on these fancy lens things some day
08:22:05 <shachaf> Fiora: Do you use Haskell?
08:22:17 * FireFly pays attention to the lecture instead
08:22:22 <lambdabot> Local time for FireFly is Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:22:22 +0100
08:23:15 <Fiora> shachaf: one of my programming classes in college used it and I wrote some things in it (like a simple compiler and some stuff?) but I'm really not that good at it
08:23:26 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:23:27 <elliott> monqy: just in case you didn't feel welcome after ~2 yeras.
08:23:40 <shachaf> elliott: btw i've never been `welcomed
08:23:45 <shachaf> imo elliott should `welcome me
08:23:57 <elliott> no i think the current state of shachaf never having been `welcomed is perfect
08:24:42 <shachaf> monqy: should elliott welcome me
08:25:05 <monqy> do you really need welcoming
08:25:24 <monqy> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:25:30 <monqy> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:25:44 <shachaf> monqy: yes to the first and third one
08:26:06 <monqy> there are 2 more but "i'm sure you can figure them out"
08:26:41 <shachaf> alt. do you really need welcoming
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08:27:01 <shachaf> monqy: you forgot some more
08:27:10 <shachaf> like do you really need welcoming
08:27:10 <Fiora> shachaf: I did think it was really interesting though, I loved the typing and type inference and stuff
08:27:18 <shachaf> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:27:23 <shachaf> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:27:54 <shachaf> Want a Haskell puzzle that I can't figure out?
08:27:55 <monqy> it is too many and overwhelming :'(
08:27:59 <shachaf> Note: No one else is figuring it out either.
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08:28:15 <elliott> shachaf is just trying to get you to do work for free
08:28:23 <Fiora> really I don't think I'd have any hope here, I haven't used the language in like 2 years ^^;;
08:28:26 <shachaf> Fiora: ill pay you in eternal gratitude
08:28:27 <monqy> btw is Fiora on Sgeo's list yet
08:28:40 <shachaf> Fiora: You want eternal gratitude, right?
08:28:56 <shachaf> (Eternal gratitude expires in 12 months unless you earn more gratitude.)
08:29:29 <shachaf> (earning my gratitude is easy!)
08:30:08 <shachaf> Fiora: did you know this channel evaluates haskell
08:30:19 <elliott> monqy: sgeo explained the list to fiora.
08:30:19 <shachaf> > let fibs = 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
08:30:21 <shachaf> > let fibs = 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
08:30:21 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let fibs = 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)'
08:30:23 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1...
08:32:09 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:33:49 <Fiora> shachaf: um, I think I saw people using it like that earlier
08:34:50 <Fiora> I don't think I can solve haskell puzzles though especially if nobody else can
08:36:40 <monqy> it's not a puzzle it's just a stupid thing shachaf asks people to do and we ignore him
08:36:55 <monqy> im sure it's interesting if you're into that sort of stuff but
08:37:06 <monqy> i dont really feel like lenses right now. i feel like Lens
08:37:28 <Sgeo> shachaf, does it have to be in Haskell?
08:37:31 <Sgeo> :innocentface:
08:37:47 <shachaf> Sgeo: If you can manage to solve it not in Haskell, I'll be surprised.
08:37:51 <shachaf> It has to do with types and things.
08:39:15 <elliott> but clojure is the perfect language of the month now
08:39:42 <elliott> truly a perfect langauge is like a computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers
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09:45:58 <oklofok> i have a math puzzle i can't solve
09:46:05 <oklofok> note: no one else is figuring it out either.
09:47:03 <oklofok> i'd be pretty surprised if you were able to solve it not with math
09:47:10 <oklofok> it has to do with numbers and stuff.
09:47:45 <oklofok> or topology and zorn's lemma and cantor-bendixon derivatives and stuff, but i hear everything is numb3rs.
09:48:49 <oklofok> 01010110101010100100101010101010100
09:48:52 <oklofok> 010101101010101000101010101111
09:48:56 <oklofok> 010100010100101010101010101000101011
09:49:06 <oklofok> 101010100101010101010010101010111001110001010111
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10:49:05 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:49:37 <shachaf> "welcome to bfderivativecentral"
10:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i invented a language, does anyone want to help me imrpove it
10:50:05 <shachaf> does it involve bricks or brains
10:52:22 <HackEgo> 766) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird
10:52:29 <HackEgo> 767) <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
10:52:33 <HackEgo> 866) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
10:53:06 <oklofok> one of them is an impostor and you have to figure out which
10:53:21 <shachaf> oklofok: I remember that movie!
10:53:36 <oklofok> there should be a molydeux-type twitter feed with esolang ideas.
10:54:29 <oklofok> is the question you want help with whether it should be called mathfuck or brainmath or brainmathics or fuckmathics?
10:54:34 <elliott> <oklofok> there should be a molydeux-type twitter feed with esolang ideas.
10:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> now i'm struggling to work out what to call the loop instructions
10:55:41 <monqy> math has an unsolved problem whereby it is not brainfuck please make math brainfuck
10:55:49 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: are you trying to trick me
10:56:23 <oklofok> fuck you shachaf it was my time to shine
10:57:41 <monqy> shachaf: theres no going bakc
10:57:55 <shachaf> monqy: did you "play psychonauts"
10:58:04 <monqy> i played psychonauts ages ago
10:58:12 <monqy> like a year!!!! but a bit less than that
10:58:26 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: are programs pdfs
10:58:42 <oklofok> but preferably compiled latex yeah
10:59:05 <monqy> shachaf: one of those
10:59:33 <shachaf> monqy: remember the part with the turtle
10:59:45 <oklofok> now, the question is can be publish a math paper that's actually a fuck your mathbrain -fuck program that prints counterexamples to all the theorems.
11:00:53 <elliott> chris pressey but different
11:01:27 <elliott> oklofok: answer to that question: no. since your theorems have counterexamples, peer review would be sure to find the errors in your proofs
11:01:42 <elliott> getting good at this joke thing
11:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh is that because of goedels incompleteness theorems
11:02:46 <oklofok> no it's because of the corollary that humans are superturing because they can do metamath so they can check every proof.
11:05:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i was thinking, it would be cool if someone used it to prove fermats' last theorem?
11:05:52 <Phantom_Hoover> omg is your favourite gedoels incompleteness theorem??
11:06:13 <oklofok> my favorite theorem is perhaps that a countable 2d sft contains a strictly singly periodic point
11:06:19 <shachaf> my favorite theorem is that
11:06:53 <shachaf> there is no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely defines the natural numbers
11:07:08 <oklofok> (and it's not even my theorem)
11:07:25 <monqy> my favorite theorem is the one where There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between that of the integers and that of the real numbers.
11:08:17 <oklofok> ah, the continuum theorem.
11:08:17 <shachaf> monqy: thats not a theorem monqy!!!
11:09:15 <shachaf> if you have the right axioms
11:09:15 <fizzie> There are theories, theorems and hypotheses; are there also hypothems?
11:09:52 <oklofok> http://drops.dagstuhl.de/opus/volltexte/2008/1334/pdf/22011.BallierAlexis.Paper.1334.pdf here read it
11:10:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: yes i can??
11:10:26 <shachaf> axiom 7: these are the right axioms
11:10:52 <oklofok> plus axiom 8 that says 7 is correct, sealing the deal.
11:10:54 <shachaf> let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1
11:11:28 <monqy> what theorem are you proving ?
11:11:29 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: "oopse i just proved fermats last conjecture"
11:11:47 <shachaf> monqy: p. cool "dont you think"
11:12:00 <elliott> <monqy> my favorite theorem is the one where There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between that of the integers and that of the real numbers.
11:12:06 <elliott> thats a ba dtheorem monqy !
11:12:23 <monqy> elliott: how can it be bad if it's my favorite
11:14:32 <shachaf> 03:14 <quicksilver> luite: the GHC programmers are very bad people :-(
11:14:43 <shachaf> elliott: "remember that time you called JaffaCake stupid to his face"
11:15:08 <oklofok> yeah i saw no ellipses in the figures. have a figure now and then asshole, it's common courtesy.
11:17:49 <shachaf> elliott: Grr, this is like doing fusion by hand.
11:18:00 <shachaf> Any ideas for how it should work?
11:18:16 <monqy> is this about Lens
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12:54:16 <FireFly> I don't get "shachaf's quotes"
12:55:44 <FireFly> I also notice that I'm reading lines from approx. 1½ hours ago
12:58:15 <shachaf> FireFly: Fiora is taking your tab completion prefix.
12:58:18 <shachaf> fizzie: Fiora is taking your tab completion prefix.
12:58:31 <shachaf> "are y'all gonna stand for it"
12:58:45 <shachaf> "are y'all gonna take it sitting down?"
12:58:56 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: "yes but no"
12:59:17 <monqy> whoa!!! settle down with those quotes!!!! calm and cool it
12:59:46 <monqy> "you might hurt somebody"
13:06:34 <monqy> sorry all i can see is you being careless w/ quotes and maybe hurting somebody
13:06:55 <monqy> it is a problem only fixable by taking good care and also a chill pill
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13:11:16 <shachaf> monqy: can i buy a chill pill
13:25:10 <shachaf> kmc: Don't you like it when someone comes into #haskell to ask a question about using ghci with their editor and the answers they get are (a) switch to unix (b) hey guys what's the true meaning of unix (c) switch to vim or emacs if you even want to matter as a person?
13:26:28 <monqy> does this happen often
13:27:35 <shachaf> "the cruel world beyond the safe sheltered walls of #esoteric"
13:28:08 <shachaf> now they're talking about The True Meaning of Vim
13:28:16 <shachaf> if you use hjkl are you a good person?
13:28:57 <shachaf> It's sad when the answers the regulars give annoy me more than the annoying newcomers.
13:30:05 <monqy> if I use hjkl am I a bad person ?
13:31:28 <shachaf> <> using hjkl in vim is almost as bad as using the arrow keys
13:31:35 <shachaf> is using the arrow keys bad
13:42:19 <fizzie> I suppose I should change my name to "XYzzie", where XY is chosen as the least likely initial IRC nickname character bigram.
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14:17:16 <FireFly> You could also replace the z's with a letter with lower character code
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15:28:57 <kmc> shachaf: :(
15:29:14 <kmc> did anyone mention yet that IDEs are for JAVA DRONES?
15:30:53 <elliott> "Does the GHC RTS depend on posix? Also, can I somehow tell GHC to use a different RTS, or am I going to have to write my own compiler if I write my own RTS?"
15:31:48 <kmc> this sounds like one of those "world of pain" situations
15:31:59 <kmc> also the answer to the first is nearly obvious from the fact that ghc works on windows
15:32:05 <kmc> excuse me WINBLO$E
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15:50:29 <kmc> ooh https://github.com/toyvo/libpandoc
15:50:56 <kmc> spinning up a GHC RTS inside my CPython process to render some Markdown is totally reasonable right?
15:51:50 <ion> Perhaps you could still involve .NET somehow.
15:52:26 <elliott> kmc: C bindings to Haskell libraries
15:52:31 <elliott> i think this is the true sign haskell has made it
15:53:19 <kmc> 2013 will be the year of haskell on the desktop
15:55:45 <kmc> "The only C implementations of markdown that I know of are Discount and PEG-markdown. Discount seemed a little bit too integrated and focused on HTML output for my taste, and PEG-markdown seemed to have a lot of dependencies and stuff. So I wrote my own."
15:55:49 <kmc> yeah! fuck code reuse!
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16:06:08 <Deewiant> C programmers tend to be all "ew, dependencies, I'll write my own instead"
16:06:24 <kmc> it's a really disappointing situation
16:06:38 <kmc> of course writing your own is how you show off how big your hacker penis is, and that's the best reason to use c for anything
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16:48:25 <elliott> kmc: guys what does in exactly do here et add1 x = x + 1 in map add1 [1,5,7] ? and how can I create function add1 and use it right away?(would be easy if you use javascript as explation)
16:49:14 <kmc> real quote?
16:49:52 <elliott> <elliott> Trudko: you probably want to read a haskell tutorial like learn you a haskell to get to grips with the basics of things like functions and map <[redacted]> elliott: I know what is map and what are functions I dont understand 1. What in is exactly doing iin aboewe example
16:50:01 <elliott> well there goes my one line of effort
16:50:20 <elliott> i only redacted one of the names
16:52:22 <kmc> elliott: will you help me take over a japanese mobile phone operator so that eventually we can have goatse in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane
16:52:58 <elliott> kmc: i think there is literally nothing i have ever aspired to less
16:54:21 <oerjan> never have so few aspired so little to so much
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17:03:22 <kmc> also sigh https://github.com/waylan/Python-Markdown/issues/161
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17:22:50 <ion> kmc: heh, nice
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17:43:54 <ion> http://www.sadanduseless.com/2012/04/lavatory-self-portraits/
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18:02:32 <atriq> Trade Depots can be too close to an edge!?
18:05:04 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, PalaceCrushed now has a legendary miner and no defences
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18:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you always think "i should get around to having some defences already" and if you're lck
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19:24:50 <atriq> Hey, I missed the lesson, can anyone tell me the background to the k e^(i * theta) way of expressing a complex number?
19:25:48 <olsner> probably something about euler
19:26:58 <kmc> so you know about polar coordinates for the plane, right?
19:27:15 <FreeFull> So I wrote a C program that quits with a Bus Error when given the input of -1
19:27:41 <kmc> and complex numbers x + yi can be thought of as a point in the plane
19:28:34 <kmc> if you convert that (x,y) to (r,θ) you can represent the number as r(cos(θ) + i sin(θ))
19:28:59 <kmc> and it so happens that cos(θ) + i sin(θ) = e^(i θ)
19:29:21 <kmc> which you can demonstrate by working out the respective power series, i think
19:29:36 <atriq> kmc, you've skipped over the one part I didn't know
19:30:22 <olsner> "what are complex numbers"
19:30:26 <atriq> How to get from cos theta + i sin theta to e ^ (i theta)
19:31:06 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_formula
19:31:49 <kmc> yes you can prove it using power series
19:32:21 <kmc> you write the power series for e^(iθ) and then shuffle the terms around and pull out a power series for cos(θ) plus one for i sin(θ)
19:32:24 <kmc> i did mention that ;)
19:33:38 <FireFly> I recall I found it informative to plot z and sqrt(z), in the complex plane for some z on the edge of the unit circle
19:33:45 <FireFly> or z and z² for that matter
19:33:58 <kmc> i like this "using calculus" proof as well
19:34:41 <olsner> "using calculus", is that where you just use euler's formula?
19:34:57 <kmc> no that we call proof by induction
19:36:08 <olsner> oh, "Neither of these mathematicians saw the geometrical interpretation of the formula: the view of complex numbers as points in the complex plane arose only some 50 years later (see Caspar Wessel)."
19:40:52 <atriq> Thinking about it, I think I can get it from Maclaurin series
19:42:08 <atriq> Although is that overkill?
19:43:12 <olsner> I think that's one of the standard ways to do it
19:43:35 <olsner> or the taylor series, don't remember what the difference between those are
19:43:45 <atriq> Maclaurin is Taylor at 0
19:44:46 <atriq> Taylor at a is f(a) + f'(a)*(x-a)/1! + f''(a)*(x-a)^2/2! ...
19:44:54 <atriq> Letting a = 0 makes it simpler
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19:58:29 <quintopia> atriq: arent there taylor/maclaurin series that dont converge to their associated function as n->infty
19:58:47 <atriq> quintopia, yes, but not for e, sin, and cos?
19:59:00 <Bike> e sin and cos are holomorphic, so yeah they converge.
20:00:34 <Fiora> what sort of function wouldn't converge?
20:00:53 <Fiora> oh, something that isn't differentiable everywhere?
20:01:04 <atriq> ln (1 + x) for x > 1
20:01:24 <Fiora> "A function that is equal to its Taylor series in an open interval (or a disc in the complex plane) is known as an analytic function."
20:01:27 <Bike> well, you can also have functions that are differentiable everywhere that aren't holomorphic.
20:01:32 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/3/4/734173a08dcfe45fcff058190d4ec0a1.png Wikipedia has an example.
20:01:47 <Bike> er, it's infinitely differentiable at 0, anyhow.
20:02:23 <Fiora> wait, so why doesn't that one work?
20:02:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function oh, here we go.
20:02:53 <Bike> because the maclaurin series of it is 0
20:03:35 <Fiora> ohhhh. it's because at zero the taylor series converges to zero...
20:03:54 <Bike> yeah, they're usually kind of pathological.
20:07:32 <Bike> atriq: polar representation of complexes is also useful for using them as rotations and stuff.
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21:07:03 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, Palacecrushed is going very well
21:07:03 <atriq> Except for the fact that the merchants are here and I haven't anything to trade
21:07:03 <atriq> And the path to the trade depot is a bit odd
21:09:58 <atriq> The military is equiped with iron weapons
21:14:09 <atriq> Well, I've missed the merchants
21:18:24 <oklopol> i think pathological may be slightly too strong a word
21:19:37 <oerjan> pathologically logical paths
21:26:19 <Bike> my saying smooth but non-analytic functions are "kind of pathological"
21:29:34 <oklopol> isn't an analytic function from R completely determined by its values on any open set?
21:30:50 <Bike> I thought that only worked in C.
21:31:04 <Fiora> isn't R a subset of C, or...?
21:31:47 <oklopol> well if it's given by a converging series, it seems that you can determine the coefficients by taking derivatives at 0.
21:33:13 <Fiora> there's the issue of functions like the one Bike mentioned though, right? which are analytic but not homomorphic
21:33:40 <Bike> she means holomorphic.
21:33:54 <oklopol> i think i've heard of that
21:34:05 <Bike> it's a synonym for "analytic", usually.
21:34:25 <oklopol> i don't get how being holomorphic has anything to do with this
21:34:36 <Fiora> homomorphic was the condition for whether a taylor series works I think Bike said?
21:34:49 <Fiora> which I think is the same thing as "you can figure it all out from derivatives at one place"
21:35:08 <oklopol> anyhow the reason i think pathological is a bit of a strong word is that if an open set determines an analytic function, pretty much every smooth function you come up with will be non-analytic.
21:35:09 <Bike> well, complex analytic functions are holomorphic, but real analytic functions aren't necessarily, I think.
21:35:35 <oklopol> unless you just directly take some function with a name. they usually have a name because they have nice series representations.
21:35:49 <Bike> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_function#Pathological_functions poincaré is more what I mean
21:36:15 <oklopol> that is somewhat pathological
21:36:18 <Bike> so, yeah, that. most functions are non-analytic and smooth probably, but they're still subjectively weird
21:36:20 <Fiora> oh god that function
21:36:24 <oklopol> the example of an analytic non-smooth function was not.
21:36:47 <oklopol> well i guess that may be a bit subjective
21:36:57 <oklopol> i was thinking of exactly the weierstrass function for comparison btw
21:37:57 <oklopol> also saying "most" here is a bit dangerous since often "a measure one subset of" B will be non-A where A is a subset of B, but actually it's very hard to find an element in B \ A.
21:38:14 <Bike> i suppose I could come up with a more rigorous "pathological" based on only allowing compositions of standard functions or something, but that'd be pretty pointless and I'm not good enough at real analysis to know what I'm saying anyway
21:38:38 <Fiora> and I haven't done analysis stuff like this in... gosh too many years <_>
21:38:59 <oklopol> i took a few analysis courses like 4 years ago
21:40:00 <oklopol> "so we have these couple of functions that interested ancient mathematicians and are useful in all sortsa fields but we already know everything about them so you students can just fuck yourselves and listen."
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21:41:54 <Fiora> complex analysis was fun though I think it was like 90% cauchy
21:43:01 <Bike> i'm looking forward to understanding how the fuck analytic combinatorics works, since apparently you can work out combinatoric values through complex analysis
21:46:12 <Bike> unfortunately i'm pretty bad at both so combining them is hazardous for me
21:46:19 <oklopol> i hope to at least do some ordinary combinatorics at some point, like graphs or something
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21:47:24 <oklopol> but dunno, finite things are so complicated
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21:47:46 <oklopol> then again people are doing so much graph stuff it must be like ridiculously easy.
21:48:09 <oklopol> at least coming up with problems is easy
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22:04:56 <kmc> http://timetobleed.com/6-line-eventmachine-bugfix-2x-faster-gc-1300-requestssec/ conservative gc: still a bad idea
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22:07:59 <olsner> "... that Ruby thread gets an entire copy of the existing stack. Each time that thread is switched into and out of, that thread stack has to be memcpy’d into and out of place."
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23:40:42 <Sgeo> Fiora, monqy coppro tswett although not formally on list I think. LIST
23:44:15 <coppro> I do not take part in your list
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