00:00:46 <Sgeo> volatile types?
00:00:53 <ais523> elliott: why are you trying so hard to get rid of kmc?
00:01:25 <elliott> ais523: Well, he's the worst person in the world and I hate him.
00:02:22 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/*-release: No such file or directory
00:02:55 <olsner> I think consensus is that we approve of kmc
00:03:44 <shachaf> the #esoteric seal of approval?
00:04:04 <Fiora> elliott is just jealous of his cool blog
00:04:26 <elliott> I bet kmc doesn't even get hate mail for his blog.
00:04:30 <elliott> PH's blog is the true one to be envious of.
00:04:45 <shachaf> Sgeo: You should notify me of updates to mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com
00:05:10 <shachaf> kmc: I guess you can notify me too, if you happen to notice them first.
00:05:14 <elliott> shachaf: It's mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.co.uk
00:05:25 <elliott> mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.hebrew
00:05:35 <olsner> it's trying to tell me its address is http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.se/
00:05:54 <oerjan> i'm sure y'all are just misspelling http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.no/
00:05:55 <shachaf> elliott: I think that's spelled ".co.il"
00:06:56 <kmc> you know someone is going to buy .jew
00:07:13 <Bike> definitely worth the thousands of dollars
00:07:38 <Bike> hm did mentifex mention .jew
00:08:27 <Fiora> kmc: on that note, I hadn't seen that hex-editing kernel module post
00:08:34 <Fiora> that is magnificently horrific
00:08:54 <kmc> i thought linux modules had checksums but... not this one anyway
00:09:38 <Bike> oh, he didn't :(
00:10:00 <elliott> Bike: do you have a degree in crackpots or something
00:10:13 <kmc> from crackpottery barn
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00:10:42 <shachaf> #esoteric is the best place to study crackpottery
00:10:54 <Bike> no, i just took a wrong turn in my life back in the day
00:11:13 <hagb4rd> greyknight would you help me with this debian installation of mono? i'm not sure why this doesn't work -> http://mono-project.com/DistroPackages/Debian
00:11:22 <Bike> one day you're just chucling at frakenstein surgery computer gangster boxes, and the next you're smoking kallisti cores off a schizo's back
00:11:30 * shachaf is tempted to quote #haskell now
00:11:43 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd: one problem with installing things on HackEgo is commands timing out :-)
00:11:51 <elliott> shachaf: You should do it. Hypocrisy is fashionable.
00:12:03 <shachaf> elliott: It's on-topic this time!
00:12:42 <kmc> yessssss the frakenstein surgery computer gangster boxes
00:12:49 <GreyKnight> #esoteric What would be here if what was here was shachaf's common sense?
00:12:59 <kmc> gangster computer god world-wide secret containment policy!!
00:13:16 <zzo38> Finally in Dungeons&Dragons game I got the spellbook.
00:13:28 <kmc> now you can spell
00:13:47 <elliott> kmc: I have no idea what is going on.
00:13:57 <Bike> another crackpot
00:14:15 <GreyKnight> Related: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html
00:14:16 <Bike> lawyer who went nuts and wrote all these barely legible rants about communist gangster frakenstein surgery
00:14:35 <FireFly> GreyKnight: exactly what I was thinking of
00:14:45 <kmc> elliott: http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/containmentpolicy.htm
00:15:04 <kmc> there's a nice audio recording linked from there
00:15:23 <Bike> i love that site's design
00:15:47 <kmc> Four billion wordwide population - all living - have a Computer God Containment Policy Brain Bank Brain, a real brain, in the Brain Bank Cities on the far side of the moon we never see.
00:15:49 <hagb4rd> actually i get some "Permission denied" errors :/
00:16:46 <kmc> Worldwide as a Frankenstein slave, usually at night, you go to the nearby hospital or camouflaged miniature-hospital van trucks. You strip naked, lay on the operating table, which slides into the sealed Computer God Robot Operating Cabinet.
00:16:47 <hagb4rd> are you sure i'd have the rights to install packages in the sandbox?
00:16:56 * impomatic wonders when mannerisky was last here...
00:17:43 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd: everyone can write to it, that's why it's in a sandbox in the first place :-P
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00:18:04 <Bike> GreyKnight: http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/containmentpolicy/brainbankcities.jpg uh, HELLO, there's a picture RIGHT THERE
00:18:13 <FireFly> I don't think `run has root access (inside the sandbox)
00:18:20 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
00:18:33 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `/this': Permission denied
00:18:55 <hagb4rd> there are some restrictions
00:19:41 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:21:47 <GreyKnight> Bike: I expected something more city-like, disappointed
00:22:11 <FireFly> You could just make it a wisdom entry..
00:22:11 <hagb4rd> @ask Gregor: would you please do me a favour and install the mono-packages? i don't seem to have sufficiant rights. only if you find some time to do so. Can you give me some feedback? I'd be gratful.
00:22:14 <kmc> i enjoy the way Francis E. Dec uses language
00:22:22 <Bike> GreyKnight: "slow"
00:22:40 <hagb4rd> @tell Gregor http://mono-project.com/DistroPackages/Debian
00:22:54 <GreyKnight> zzo38: perhaps the Brain Bank Cities on the moon would be a good spot for a D&D game. The illithids would love it there (perhaps they run the place)
00:22:57 <kmc> his run-on sentences are mostly grammatical, except that a lot of them are just huge noun clauses
00:23:51 <GreyKnight> hm I should have written it in Haskell for the practice
00:24:28 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
00:25:55 <FireFly> I can't remember how to compile it
00:26:07 <FireFly> http://plof.codu.org/wiki/ fwiw
00:26:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$(cat the_list | xargs -d'\n'): update"
00:26:59 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ gktemp \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ luabuild \ paste \ quotes \ quotese \ run \ share \ test \ the_list \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
00:27:16 <FireFly> and it clearly knows how to run haskell programs
00:27:29 <oerjan> FireFly: that was why it's not on the wiki, not why it's not in interps
00:27:33 <GreyKnight> Haskell is confusing enough to count as an honorary esolang :-)
00:27:40 <monqy> but can hackego's `update compete with sgeo's personality
00:27:43 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access usr/bin: No such file or directory
00:27:48 <HackEgo> [ \ 2to3 \ 2to3-2.6 \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ aot-compile \ appletviewer \ apropos \ apt \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64
00:28:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /usr/bin | paste: No such file or directory
00:28:04 <HackEgo> install: missing destination file operand after `sgeo' \ Try `install --help' for more information.
00:28:07 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....@.....@.......(z..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@.....u......u........ ............u......u`.....u`.....p.............. ...........u......u`.....u`............................
00:28:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14597
00:28:21 <Bike> `run mv sgeo $(which update)
00:28:23 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `sgeo': No such file or directory
00:28:24 <GreyKnight> hm maybe I should've file'd it first :-)
00:29:23 <GreyKnight> I like how HackEgo contains /usr/bin/aptitude-curses, how are we supposed to use that?!
00:30:32 * GreyKnight tries it in private, gets expected garbage
00:30:44 <Bike> `aptitude-curses
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00:31:48 <HackEgo> [1;24r[0;10m[4l[?7h[39;49m[?1000h[?25l[?1c[39;49m[0;10m[H[J[24d[0;10;1m[37m[41m[J[H[37m[44m Actions Undo Package Resolver Search Options Views Help[K
00:32:10 <FireFly> `cat /dev/urandom | hexdump -C | less
00:32:12 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/urandom | hexdump -C | less: No such file or directory
00:32:16 <FireFly> `run cat /dev/urandom | hexdump -C | less
00:32:18 <HackEgo> 00000000 57 e0 19 43 83 b8 be 92 4c 8a 68 87 c6 5f ae df |W..C....L.h.._..| \ 00000010 66 50 15 32 bb 8f 48 a2 fc 58 78 50 35 b3 7c 31 |fP.2..H..XxP5.|1| \ 00000020 31 a5 c2 7d 4f e5 1d 2b 02 5f 5e e6 63 f6 88 ab |1..}O..+._^.c...| \ 00000030 02 49 5f 89 48 b1 68 bc 09 be 4f 99 0a d6 20 a3 |.I_.H.h...O... .| \ 00000040 ca da 4f c6 ab 0
00:32:35 <kmc> `run base64 /dev/urandom
00:32:36 <HackEgo> mVJnSjwftK95Zyx8f8GkXRRlJ8chsnslHIlp1XzcR4mdgOzg26oUZoLIjXfrg6/G5MHnco1wSQdW \ F1VQnLnImapZhyLkqwVWb7QskNTJofO008uTsucre/cvYXZACci97uy8NU3egKs4aEtqQXaqe4/Q \ j3uhPl0xLBA5dqYBt8VaHVrwaiVEnCogIgRmr88yXZNR8D67BGwPeTwZkkTq5xEMTeT/8XOwb9LD \ wXL/eYryzlJZ9ZJzc9PVWtYOvXfynYERs8NfR8zg8RDtVxcC/33Fq/3GojBhJXSbcjoEg7F9mtIE \ Lj/WdVicmyLDKLzNXi+0Vix98JU6HGaIXd
00:32:40 <FireFly> `run cat /dev/urandom | hexdump -C | vi -
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00:33:15 <kmc> `run ls -la /proc/self/fd/
00:33:43 <HackEgo> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal
00:33:45 <HackEgo> total 0 \ dr-x------ 2 5000 5000 0 Jan 12 00:33 . \ dr-xr-xr-x 7 5000 5000 0 Jan 12 00:33 .. \ lr-x------ 1 5000 5000 64 Jan 12 00:33 0 -> /tty1 \ l-wx------ 1 5000 5000 64 Jan 12 00:33 1 -> pipe:[66] \ l-wx------ 1 5000 5000 64 Jan 12 00:33 2 -> /tty1 \ lr-x------ 1 5000 5000 64 Jan 12 00:33 3 -> /console \ l-wx------ 1 5000 5000 64 Jan 12 00:33
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00:34:01 <GreyKnight> "I think I heard that monads are about something involving overloading burrito operators in an endospacesuit category. I don't know, it sounds pretty complicated."
00:34:21 <Bike> `? endospacesuit
00:34:34 <kmc> `run stat /tty1
00:34:34 <GreyKnight> vim takes about a minute to start up apparently
00:34:36 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `/tty1': No such file or directory
00:34:46 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: That shouldn't happen
00:34:53 <FireFly> Or the timeout is after about a minute
00:35:01 <FireFly> (and that is when the output is collected)
00:35:08 <kmc> `run stat /console
00:35:09 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `/console': No such file or directory
00:35:35 <FreeFull> Let's try implementing an infinite list in bash
00:35:41 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `/tty1': No such file or directory
00:35:47 <HackEgo> :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:
00:36:22 <FireFly> `run (echo 8; yes =; echo D) | tr -d '\n'
00:36:24 <HackEgo> 8=============================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================
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00:37:42 <HackEgo> _,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,_,/`¯`\\,
00:37:43 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: good night).
00:38:06 <HackEgo> _,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\,_,/`¯`\
00:38:32 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd 'A-Za-z' | tr -d '\n'
00:38:34 <HackEgo> TLXJzjqIVvmotKMELfBLqdaOtHHwMkUotikPSoBjreENxPzqmMHeEzWSSlOOCrIXOXNVCjwXUGBDqyAKmDzUcYRHQOcXaGfuuNzOJfBGckRYARPutXorbAiUeHtNndjMWIiSUBbTftqzLatYZSccvCTCztlMSAhqBzTwroHUXEUWQYhqQktWFZIxaNbIvcNxOzjJxqTzxfdKDiTWKqyxsqLpKExeQIHkmZTGZahJomZlvBGhvhHIWoGhrUzNmqZVLJjFtnczPrmGjWmcqQwXGFWuTYSBhtskvEaCmolUrxGRjvKYdWIRbKBMNqINyClAhOtcHlVVWdIAfTEFVzdJPGrfCaEBMi
00:39:05 <shachaf> why are y'all spamming the channel
00:39:14 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd 'A-Za-z' | tr 'A-Z' \\ | tr 'a-z' /
00:39:15 <HackEgo> tr: warning: an unescaped backslash at end of string is not portable \ //\//\\\\//\///\\\\\\////\\\\//\\\/\\/\\\/\/\\/\/\/\\//\//\\\/\\//\/\///\///\\\//\\//////\///\/\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\/\///\\\/\///\\\\\/\/\\/\/\\\//\//\//\/\\\/\\\\\//\\////\//\\\/\/\\///\///\//\//////\/////\\//\\///\//\\\\\/\/\\/\//\\///\\/\\\////////\\\//\///\\//\/\\\/\////\///\\
00:40:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:41:16 <oerjan> !slashes //\//\\\\//\///\\\\\\////\\\\//\\\/\\/\\\/\/\\/\/\/\\//\//\\\/\\//\/\///\///\\\//\\//////\///\/\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\/\///\\\/\///\\\\\/\/\\/\/\\\//\//\//\/\\\/\\\\\//\\////\//\\\/\/\\///\///\//\//////\/////\\//\\///\//\\\\\/\/\\/\//\\///\\/\\\////////\\\//\///\\//\/\\\/\////\///\\
00:41:45 <ais523> huh, why is that the same as the /dev/urandom tr'ed output?
00:42:08 <ais523> it's you saying it not a bot
00:42:51 <oerjan> oh it starts with // no wonder it output nothing
00:43:14 <GreyKnight> do we know for sure oerjan isn't a bot?
00:43:27 <oerjan> all humans are bots, duh
00:44:01 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd 'A-Za-z' | tr 'A-Z' \\ | tr 'a-z' / | head -c 10
00:44:03 <oerjan> some of them are just programmed not to believe it
00:44:04 <HackEgo> tr: warning: an unescaped backslash at end of string is not portable \ //////\//\
00:44:12 <FreeFull> `run cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd 'A-Za-z' | tr 'A-Z' \\\\ | tr 'a-z' / | head -c 10
00:44:17 <kmc> `run tr -cd '/\' < /dev/urandom
00:44:19 <HackEgo> tr: warning: an unescaped backslash at end of string is not portable \ \/\//\\\\//\\////\\\//\////\/\\/\\\///////\/\/\\//////\/////\//\////\////\\////\////\\/\/////\////\///\//////\\\////\\//\\\\\\\///\////////\/\\///\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\///\//\/\///\\//\\\//\///\/\\\///\\\/\/////\////\\/\\//\/\/\\/\/\////\\/\//\\\\//\\//\/\\//\\\\\/\/\\\/\/\\//\\/\/\\/
00:44:21 <shachaf> `run cp -a bin/quoerjan bin/quørjan
00:44:32 <HackEgo> 585) <oerjan> <Patashu> But wait what if I'm using a quantum computer <-- there is "quantum entropy". it's the same except no one understands it. \ 16) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 59) * oe
00:44:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shachaf: not found
00:44:57 <kmc> `run declare -a x=('╱' '╲');while true;do echo -n ${x[$(($RANDOM%2))]};done
00:45:10 <HackEgo> ╱╱╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╱
00:45:12 <oerjan> i sometimes think shachaf seems a little obsessed with me, what do you think?
00:45:22 <shachaf> oerjan: Just with your name.
00:45:39 <shachaf> I could say ørjan all day.
00:45:42 <kmc> character encoding fails?
00:46:16 <FireFly> Are there any english words with /ø/?
00:46:25 <FreeFull> `run declare -a x=('╱' '╲');while true;do echo -n ${x[$(($RANDOM/4%2))]};done
00:46:27 <HackEgo> ╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱
00:46:33 <Bike> place names? i can't think of any loanwords
00:46:55 <Bike> oh or do you mean the phoneme
00:47:00 <oerjan> elliott subtly(*) hints that shachaf is obsessed with _everyone_. (*) that is, he didn't actually say it
00:47:20 * FreeFull kisses shachaf to break the obsession curse
00:48:15 <Bike> FireFly: wikipedia says it's present in south african english "bird".
00:49:21 <oerjan> is it a børd? is it a plejn?
00:49:45 <kmc> `run while true; do printf "\xe2\x95\xb$(($RANDOM%2+1))"; done
00:49:46 <HackEgo> ╱╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╲
00:50:24 <kmc> `run while true; do LC_ALL=en_US.utf-8 printf "\xe2\x95\xb$(($RANDOM%2+1))"; done
00:50:27 <HackEgo> ╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╲
00:51:31 <FireFly> I guess "bird" is pretty close
00:52:05 <FireFly> Well, okay, somewhat close
00:52:17 <oerjan> elliott is now subtly(*) angry at me for referring to things he said in private, especially when he never said them. (*) ARGH STOP HITTING ME WITH THAT
00:52:48 * FireFly subtly swats oerjan -----###
00:56:43 <oerjan> all these copycat swatters around these days
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00:59:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Monad'
01:00:00 * shachaf swats the copycats -----###
01:00:55 <shachaf> oerjan: What did he actually say to you?
01:09:14 <GreyKnight> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad_tutorials_timeline
01:09:46 <kmc> while true; do printf "\e[3$(($RANDOM%3+2));1m\xe2\x95\xb$(($RANDOM%2+1))"; done
01:10:39 <elliott> kmc: Is it just me or does that slow down the longer you leave it running?
01:12:25 <kmc> a lot of terminals suck at scrolling non-ascii chars
01:14:59 <oerjan> elliott: shachaf: sorry, i said too much stupid.
01:15:52 <oerjan> (much more stupid than whatever elliott said, anyway.)
01:20:11 <HackEgo> All space stations must put their astronauts into space suits before sending them out.
01:20:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ shuf -n 1 wisdom/monad-tutorials
01:20:50 <GreyKnight> oerjan: prints random monad analogies from a list :-)
01:20:57 <kmc> `monad-tutorial
01:20:58 <HackEgo> All space stations must put their astronauts into space suits before sending them out.
01:21:02 <GreyKnight> (all actual examples of the breed scoured from the internet)
01:21:16 <kmc> `monad-tutorial
01:21:31 <elliott> the burrito thing is not from an actual monad tutorial.
01:21:51 <shachaf> @quote copumpkin monads.are
01:21:52 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: monads are like monad tutorials
01:21:56 <shachaf> @quote copumpkin monads.are.just
01:22:01 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
01:22:03 <lambdabot> psykotic says: the reader monad is your friend. trust the reader monad. be happy!
01:22:18 <monqy> `cat wisdom/monad-tutorials
01:22:18 <elliott> monad tutorial jokes are the most overdone thing in the universe
01:22:20 <HackEgo> Monads are a bucket brigade with project managers. \ Monads are like burritos. \ Think of a monad as a spacesuite full of nuclear waste in the ocean next to a container of apples. now, you can't put oranges in the space suite or the nucelar waste falls in the ocean, but the apples are carried around anyway, and you just take what you need. \ All sp
01:22:24 <GreyKnight> `run echo "Monads are like monad tutorials." >> wisdom/monad-tutorials
01:22:27 <monqy> `rm wisdom/monad-tutorials
01:22:32 <lambdabot> jmcarthur says: web monads are unicorn burritos that have been laying around in the attic for a few years
01:22:33 <monqy> `rm bin/monad-tutorial
01:22:40 <lambdabot> kmc says: une monade est comme une crêpe. una mónada es como un burrito. eine Monade ist wie ein Strudel
01:22:52 <monqy> shut up about monad tutorials shut up shut up shut up
01:22:57 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list
01:23:22 <shachaf> monqy: what's a better topic to talk about
01:23:31 <FreeFull> > words "Yep, these are words."
01:23:31 <monqy> how about lens :-)
01:23:46 <lambdabot> roconnor says: a lens is a monoidal natural transformation between higher-order coalgebra functors, what's the problem?
01:24:03 <lambdabot> roconnor says: a lens is a monoidal natural transformation between higher-order coalgebra functors, what's the problem?
01:24:03 <oerjan> i think a monad may have hurt monqy once
01:24:13 <HackEgo> A lens is just a store comonad coalgebra.
01:24:21 <Bike> wow, i understand a positively weird amount of that question
01:24:31 <GreyKnight> I apologies for not having the same sense of humour as monqy I guess (!)
01:24:51 <monqy> monad tutorial jokes are old as heck
01:25:05 <GreyKnight> Oh okay, I'll go turn myself in to the Fun Police immediately
01:25:48 <oerjan> `learn Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh.
01:25:58 <FreeFull> monad tutorial jokes are older than programming
01:26:00 <Bike> I still want to know what an endospacesuit is for, though
01:26:26 <Bike> possibly related to endoscopy?
01:27:22 <oerjan> there have been movies about that.
01:27:50 <Bike> about luabuild
01:28:32 <zzo38> Do new versions of C allow duplicate definitions?
01:29:23 <elliott> GreyKnight: are you removing everything you added to the bot because monqy removed one thing you added to the bot
01:30:08 <GreyKnight> I removed two temp directories and a bit of humour which nobody cared about?
01:30:19 <Bike> `run echo "shachaf, elliot" > the_list
01:30:31 <monqy> Bike: it's gotta be newline separated
01:30:46 <monqy> i applaud the sentiment though
01:31:00 <FreeFull> `run echo -e "shachaf\nelliot" > the_list
01:32:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:33:00 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:34:48 <GreyKnight> Interestingly I only found a handful of monad tutorial things which were halfway amusing. Most of the hits for "monad tutorial" are people complaining about how many monad tutorials there are
01:35:20 <GreyKnight> I suppose the next level is people complaining about how many complaints there are about how many monad tutorials there are?
01:35:35 <Bike> that's when it's time to just lay down and smoke a bit
01:36:11 <GreyKnight> setting fire to yourself is not the answer Bike
01:36:34 <Bike> hey it worked pretty well in africa right
01:38:51 <Bike> that guy was tunisian, right?
01:38:59 <Bike> yep he was. go me.
01:39:27 <Bike> he got a postage stamp!
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01:45:58 <zzo38> Is there a way in a C program to tell to open a file with read-only and not allow other programs to write to that file while this program keeps it open for reading?
01:46:32 <kmc> no I don't think that's something you can do in portable C
01:46:45 <kmc> different operating systems have different forms of (advisory or mandatory) file locking
01:46:48 <Bike> that sounds like something you need os-dependent locks for
02:02:34 <zzo38> Is there any such section (in ELF and so on) as a section which cannot read/write/execute but is guaranteed to be unique pointers, which is not valid and is not the same as any valid pointers?
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02:11:06 <kmc> well in ELF you can have custom sections of any name with whatever permissions you like
02:20:22 <zzo38> But can the system and the programming language support such things which I specified?
02:31:23 <kmc> i don't understand totally what you mean
02:31:25 <kmc> but probably
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02:35:26 <shachaf> System and Method to Support Such Things Which I Specified
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02:58:24 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
02:58:41 <shachaf> Gregor: How many of them are chromatic button accordions?
02:58:56 <Gregor> shachaf: Zero! This is three because #1 is in Oregon and I sold #2.
02:59:05 <Gregor> They were all roughly equivalent accordions.
02:59:10 <shachaf> You should acquire a chromatic button accordion.
02:59:14 <shachaf> You would be a happier person.
02:59:17 <Gregor> shachaf: I would love to. Ain't gonna happen.
02:59:34 <Gregor> shachaf: I don't think you understand. My initial goal was a chromatic button accordion. Piano accordions are meh. But it just isn't going to happen.
02:59:51 <shachaf> Better no accordion than a piano accordion!
03:00:06 <Gregor> Well now you're just being silly.
03:00:18 <shachaf> Gregor: How about a concertina?
03:00:20 <fizzie> "Better no news than good news," goes the old saying.
03:00:28 <Gregor> shachaf: Concertinas aren't even chromatic!
03:00:43 <shachaf> That one layout, what's-it-called.
03:01:03 <Gregor> Oh, apparently some of them are, quoth Wikipedia.
03:01:11 <shachaf> What are the popular layouts?
03:02:37 <shachaf> http://www.concertina.com/fingering/images/hayden-W1350H480.gif
03:02:46 <shachaf> That looks chromatic to me.
03:03:06 <shachaf> And it's also not that kind where it makes a different note when you push and pull.
03:03:09 <Gregor> Wikipedia suggests English, German, and various variations on them. English is unisonoric (thank Jebus) and chromatic.
03:03:43 <shachaf> Unisonoric, that's the word.
03:03:48 <kmc> shachaf: did you read about that asterisk exploit
03:04:10 <shachaf> kmc: No! I should read that.
03:05:05 <zzo38> Why are there five uppercase letters in the diagram, and others are lowercase? They don't even have all of the notes with uppercase.
03:05:34 <shachaf> zzo38: I think it's the opposite of '
03:05:42 <shachaf> (Like people sometimes do with integrals!)
03:07:42 <shachaf> You know how "bit" and "octave" mean the same thing?
03:08:48 <shachaf> Gregor: How do I tell a good concertina from a bad one?
03:09:12 <Gregor> shachaf: Personally, I wouldn't buy one without playing it first.
03:09:23 <Gregor> Unless it's brand new from, e.g., Hohner (if they make concertinas)
03:10:15 <shachaf> Gregor: But I don't know anything about playing concertinas.
03:10:23 <shachaf> In fact I've never played any musical instrument.
03:11:49 <Gregor> I had never played a piano accordion when I bought my first one. I just read up enough and tested what I could figure out. All that's important is that all the reeds make sound (both on push and pull), and that it sounds nice.
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03:24:39 <Sgeo> monqy, Fiora if you didn't see it there was a recent update
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03:26:26 <monqy> sgeo can you move me from this list to the supermega list. shachaf can replace me on this list.
03:26:41 <shachaf> monqy: im already on another list...........
03:26:43 <Sgeo> What's the supermega list
03:26:49 <monqy> the list for super mega
03:26:55 <monqy> i need my super mega updates
03:28:27 <elliott> i'd like to be on the super mega list too yes
03:29:14 <monqy> elliott did you see it's been updating recently!! it's a christmas miracle
03:29:37 <elliott> monqy: i did not. i often find it hard to tell whether i've seen a super mega comic before or not though
03:30:16 <oerjan> after looking at the first and last super mega comics - are you actually following this?
03:30:38 <elliott> oerjan: um super mega is fantastic
03:32:20 <elliott> q: how can you see http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=385 and not laugh. a: maybe you're a zombie?? a skeleton, other misc. forms of dead and undeadness
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03:34:39 <oerjan> well i guess if i'm dead i could be imagining my pulse.
03:35:12 <zzo38> If you are dead you should not do anything.
03:35:35 <oerjan> zzo38: I DON'T ASCRIBE TO YOUR SENSELESS LIMITATIONS
03:36:01 <zzo38> I thought you did.
03:36:17 <oerjan> ok maybe i did chuckle from the sheer absurdity of that comic. a little.
03:36:37 <oerjan> zzo38: WELL YOU WERE WRONG
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03:37:34 <oerjan> anyway i find the evidence that elliott isn't being sarcastic inconclusive.
03:37:54 <monqy> i can assure you super mega is 100% verygood
03:38:17 <Bike> oh it has spurious quotation marks
03:38:49 <oerjan> my inconclusion stands.
03:39:26 <elliott> oerjan: sorry I actually do find super mega genuinely hilarious
03:43:05 * Sgeo will not maintain a super mega list
03:44:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: update: not found
03:45:08 <oerjan> @@ @id (@tell elliott testing) (@tell fizzie testing)
03:45:08 <lambdabot> Consider it noted. Consider it noted.
03:45:08 <Bike> the lack of sgeoinality was the primary issue with update v. 1. maybe we can avoid that problem if sgeo is the architect of v. 3.
03:45:10 <fizzie> `run (cat the_list; echo update) | xargs # is that the syntax?
03:45:10 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:45:22 <fizzie> What an unexpected message!
03:46:02 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:46:34 <fizzie> (Okay I have to go catch a train.)
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03:48:26 <zzo38> I have recorded the most recent Dungeons&Dragons session (from four days ago), except the experience points.
03:49:31 <zzo38> What is the command in C to shorten a file?
03:52:02 <oerjan> @@ @@ @read @run concat ["(\64tell " ++ s ++ " testing)" | s <- ["elliott", "oerjan"]]
03:52:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.You can tell yourself!
03:52:21 <shachaf> 19:45 <monochrom> I offer: sequence_ (intersperse (threadDelay 100000) (map (putStrLn . show) the_list)
03:52:35 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:53:01 <elliott> oerjan: I think I wanted this kind of sequencing before, but I forget what for.
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04:21:34 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use -XTemplateHaskell
04:32:18 <oerjan> > sequence [['a'..'z'],['d'..'z']]
04:32:20 <lambdabot> ["ad","ae","af","ag","ah","ai","aj","ak","al","am","an","ao","ap","aq","ar"...
04:33:09 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [GHC.Types.Char])
04:34:42 <monqy> > flip replicateM ['a'..'z'] =<< [2..]
04:34:43 <lambdabot> ["aa","ab","ac","ad","ae","af","ag","ah","ai","aj","ak","al","am","an","ao"...
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05:38:50 <kmc> http://depts.washington.edu/sibl/Publications/Cheryan,%20Plaut,%20Davies,%20&%20Steele%20(2009).pdf
05:38:53 <kmc> 'People can make decisions to join a group based solely on exposure to that group's physical environment... In Study 1, simply changing the objects in a computer science classroom from those considered stereotypical of computer science (e.g., Star Trek poster, video games) to objects not considered stereotypical of computer science (e.g., nature poster, phone books) was sufficient to boost female undergraduates' interest in computer s
05:40:03 <Bike> "how can we make it more pink?"
05:41:17 <coppro> Bike: I suggest a sucker
05:42:22 <Bike> i think the freshman cs lab had some poster of a BSD joke up, how stereotypical is that on the scale
05:45:00 <coppro> Bike: doly surround sound typical
05:47:00 <fizzie> The more edgy version of shachaf.
05:47:25 <fizzie> (Also good morning from a train.
05:49:44 <elliott> kmc: that cut off at "in computer s" fwiw
05:49:59 <elliott> fizzie: Are you a train again?
05:50:55 <oerjan> i though shpx chaf was good morning from a train. they're not known for having the best PA systems.
05:51:29 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, I am a train again.
05:51:35 <oerjan> wait does fizzie take a train every morning?
05:51:55 <elliott> does fizzie is a train every morning
05:52:10 <monqy> is fizzie ever not a train
05:52:16 <oerjan> does he is or does he ain't?
05:52:38 <kmc> i should get that line split whatever
05:52:52 <kmc> '...was sufficient to boost female undergraduates' interest in computer science to the level of their male peers.'
05:53:16 <kmc> fizzie: happy train
05:53:43 <fizzie> Why does this thing keep reconnecting all the time.
05:54:22 <fizzie> kmc: The number of this train is "1".
05:55:11 <fizzie> It's not Train Force One, no.
05:55:35 <shachaf> how come there's no train force
05:56:00 <ion> which reminds me, i haven’t played OpenTTD for quite a while.
05:56:10 <oerjan> some armies had great success with trains in the 19th century
05:56:28 <oerjan> admittedly they probably did not fight from them
05:56:47 <fizzie> I think maybe trains are not terribly useful for an invasion. At least to a place with no railways.
05:57:09 <kmc> this is why russia uses a different rail gauge from germany
05:57:11 <quintopia> trains are indispensable for supply lines
05:57:17 <oerjan> (the prussians won a major war with austria due to it.)
05:57:18 <Bike> armored trains are the shit though.
05:57:33 <shachaf> fizzie: what about for defense against invasions
05:57:52 <quintopia> kmc: doesnt sound too difficult to deal with. just build a multigauge train carriage
05:58:14 <kmc> it is an obstacle though
05:58:17 <Bike> i think they actually did that a few times
05:58:25 <kmc> germany already had a bunch of equipment on one gauge and would have to modify it to invade
05:58:31 <Bike> but, the problem is that you have your shitload of trains already and retrofitting them would take a lot of time and money
05:58:41 <quintopia> germany was probably modifying it anyway
05:58:46 <kmc> variable gauge systems are used in spain today
05:58:57 <Bike> and i guess it's kind of hard to justify "WE NEED TO REBUILD OUR TRAIN CARRIAGES" to an oblivious military planner
05:58:57 <quintopia> they output some high quality qar shit
05:59:31 <kmc> i think trains were indispensible in the first half of 20th century for moving tanks and artillery to the general battle area
05:59:43 <kmc> you don't want to drive a tank hundreds of miles, they break down and consume enormous amounts of fuel
05:59:57 <kmc> these days you would use airplanes or huge fuckoff trucks instead
06:00:14 <quintopia> on the downside, they did klystron instead of vacuum magnetron for radar which was probably their biggest mistake
06:00:30 <kmc> in WWI they had some small railways in the trenches, using temporary equipment based on mining railways
06:00:53 <Bike> i hear the whole pakistan truck block and related resortion of the US military to planes cost a shitload of money though
06:00:55 <fizzie> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_gun also there's this.
06:01:08 <kmc> hm, finland and sweden use different gauges
06:01:31 <shachaf> They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care; / They pursued it with forks and hope; / They threatened its life with a railway-share; / They charmed it with smiles and soap.
06:01:33 <Bike> hm... did different american rail companies use different gauges in order to be shitlords to one another?
06:01:40 <kmc> yes sometimes
06:01:51 <kmc> the streetcars in philadelphia are nonstandard gauge for this reason i believe
06:02:23 <kmc> they wanted to not get taken over by the commuter rail company (i'm not sure why)
06:02:44 <kmc> mainline railroads had lots of through-running on other people's infrastructure via trackage rights
06:02:53 <kmc> as well as frequent mergers, splits, etc
06:03:04 <kmc> so there there was more call for standardization
06:03:06 <coppro> and governments I guess weren't smart enough to go 'fuck you standard guage'
06:03:20 <Bike> what, in the 19th century?
06:03:26 <fizzie> The http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav is I think what I was thinking about when I mentioned railway guns.
06:03:38 <Bike> that was the one they only fired like once, wasn't it?
06:03:47 <Bike> and had shells larger than some small tanks
06:04:02 <kmc> they changed the gauge in the south of the US in one weekend
06:04:34 <kmc> 'Over a period of 36 hours, tens of thousands of workers pulled the spikes from the west rail of all the broad gauge lines in the South, moved them 3 in (76 mm) east and spiked them back in place.'
06:04:52 <fizzie> " The twin guns weighed nearly 1,350 tonnes, and could fire shells weighing seven tonnes to a range of 47 kilometers (29 mi)."
06:05:23 <kmc> finland uses Russian Close Enough Gauge
06:05:33 <Bike> kmc: man that sounds tedious
06:05:35 <kmc> 1524 mm instead of the standard Russian gauge of 1520 mm
06:05:42 <tswett> Hm. I'm trying to write a set theory into Coq. I wrote that anything can have an element, but only a set can be an element.
06:06:14 <tswett> Good ol' reverse set theory...
06:06:33 <oerjan> tswett: sounds perfectly right for gödel-von neumann-bernays theory
06:06:36 <Bike> shouldn't you call them "cosets" for maximum hipsterability?
06:06:42 <kmc> the USSR had rail-launched ICBMs too
06:07:00 <Bike> i thought the US did too for a bit?
06:07:16 <kmc> i think it was planned but not implemented
06:07:34 <kmc> here you can see one launch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BCoBGdvyiQ&t=0m42s
06:08:19 <kmc> and then from a truck
06:08:29 <kmc> it must be exciting to be inside the truck when this happens
06:08:31 <Bike> it doesn't fire while moving. shame
06:09:01 <shachaf> Another odd Windows-people thing is that they associate the idea of a language-level exception with some sort of OS-provided facility.
06:09:42 <monqy> what does that mean
06:09:49 <Bike> jesus christ, that launch
06:09:59 <Bike> just sorta pops up and them WHAM rocket
06:10:44 <Bike> and according to the description the train one is called a Satan.
06:11:13 <Bike> oh, that's just the nato name.
06:11:25 <kmc> yeah that's the NATO code for it
06:12:03 <kmc> your pizza in 30 minutes or the next one is free
06:12:23 <Bike> i wonder if i can find a video of one of them fancy chinese carrierfucker missiles yet. probably not quite as explosive as an icbm, but still neat
06:13:22 <kmc> http://hybriddiplomacy.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/pizza.jpeg
06:13:43 <Bike> they got pretty bored in those silos, didn't they.
06:14:00 <kmc> i imagine there was a tremendous amount of masturbation
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06:22:08 <tswett> Hm, what would a reverse set theory look like, anyway?
06:22:27 <Bike> all i can think of is reverse mathematics, which is kind of not the same
06:22:41 <fizzie> It is the weirdest. The SSH connection has not completely disconnected even once, but the port-forwarded IRC one has done it five times.
06:23:04 <fizzie> Maybe the client has some kind of too eager timeout.
06:23:35 <tswett> ZFC is essentially a set of first-order axioms for V. V is constructed by starting with the empty set, and taking the powerset On times.
06:24:40 <shachaf> tswett: Got anything to say about Peano axioms?
06:24:55 <tswett> Well, that depends on whether you mean the first-order ones or the second-order ones.
06:25:13 <tswett> If you're talking about the first-order ones, rumor has it they actually have multiple models.
06:25:58 <tswett> V_0 is the empty set; for all a, a is not an element of V_0. For any ordinal number n, V_(n+1) is the power set of V_n; for all a, a is an element of V_(n+1) if and only if a is a subset of V_n.
06:26:07 <tswett> So what if you just reverse all those "element of" relations?
06:26:23 <tswett> Call the result M, for obvious reasons.
06:27:07 <tswett> For all a, a is not an element of M_0.
06:27:39 <tswett> Er, no, that's not reversed.
06:27:44 <tswett> For all a, M_0 is not an element of a.
06:28:09 <tswett> M_0 cannot be contained by any set. It's the yo mama set.
06:28:26 <Bike> isn't it the set of all sets (except itself)?
06:30:10 <tswett> M_1, then, is the... co-power-set of M_0, I guess? For all a, M_1 is an element of a if and only if a is a subset of M_0. Does that make sense?
06:30:50 <tswett> It doesn't seem to. M_0, being yo mama, must be really huge, so this would mean that M_1 is an element of everything.
06:30:59 <tswett> How about: M_1 is an element of a if and only if M_0 is a subset of a.
06:31:51 <tswett> Now M_1 is an element of M_0 and nothing else.
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06:34:14 <tswett> Gee. V is what you get if you allow "all conceivable sets", under the restriction that there can't be an infinite chain of sets where each set contains the next.
06:36:05 <tswett> Well, if you just flip the element relation, and talk about reverse sets, then... sets behave quite like they did before, except it's like the element relation has been flipped.
06:39:52 <oerjan> tswett: aka axiom of foundation
06:40:52 <oerjan> or are you reversing that too
06:41:18 <Bike> set theory where well-founded sets aren't allowed
06:42:23 <Bike> ugh non-well-founded set theories just remind me of this shitty paper about how they supposedly are needed in biology, though
06:42:54 <monqy> is this about lens
06:42:54 <shachaf> do you know anything about Codensity?
06:43:05 <monqy> i've "heard things"
06:43:20 <monqy> i haven't heard much about it
06:43:32 <shachaf> so you know how Codensity is just the result of >>= right
06:44:17 <shachaf> is it "the input to <<="????
06:44:32 <monqy> is this a question to which you know the answer
06:44:46 <shachaf> just trying to figure this out
06:44:51 <shachaf> data Density k a where Density :: (k b -> a) -> k b -> Density k a
06:45:04 <shachaf> so it's existential over the b
06:45:25 <shachaf> (<<=) :: Comonad w => (w b -> a) -> w b -> w a
06:45:56 <Bike> oh, aczel's theory is what i joked about, and was the thing in the paper. go me
06:46:22 <Bike> er no it doesn't mandate cycles in the graphs i guess. eh
06:47:36 <shachaf> monqy: so like can you tell me what it means
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06:49:47 <oerjan> y'all are just being dense
06:50:59 <monqy> shachaf: it sure LOOKS like the input to <<=.......
06:51:20 <shachaf> monqy: but what's that existntial doing there.............
06:51:25 <shachaf> oh i guess it makes sense?
06:51:29 <shachaf> because you don't know what b is
06:51:35 <shachaf> you can still apply it to <==
06:52:11 <shachaf> monqy: do you "get" comonads
06:52:16 <shachaf> like what they're good for and stuff
06:53:06 <monqy> uhh istr knowing "how they work" and "how to use them" but i forget what theyre good for
06:54:36 <shachaf> monqy: btw Codensity m is bigger than m right
06:54:47 <shachaf> like Codensity (e ->) = State e??
06:55:57 <shachaf> monqy: btw super mega is "pretty good"
06:56:07 <shachaf> i have the feeling it might get old though??
06:56:39 <monqy> super mega gets un-old, and it also never updates
06:57:03 <monqy> if you read it backwards it might get old though, but that's just how things go
06:57:15 <shachaf> what if i read it forwards
06:57:46 <monqy> the newer stuff is generally better than the older stuff
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07:07:18 <monqy> http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/332.gif
07:08:26 <monqy> did you see http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/385.gif linked earlier it is good
07:09:17 <monqy> you should find them for yourself
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07:11:38 <monqy> http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/353.gif
07:12:55 <shachaf> btw 62 has a grammar mistake
07:12:59 <shachaf> it says it's instead of its
07:13:07 <shachaf> do i really want to read a comic with mistakes
07:13:49 <shachaf> head is a dinosaur is great
07:15:08 <shachaf> monqy: do you remember the girl scouts in psychonauts
07:15:39 <monqy> girl scouts......maybe??? vaguely
07:16:18 <monqy> oh the rainbow squirts???
07:16:38 <shachaf> what's the difference anyway
07:16:43 <shachaf> i don't know "american culture"
07:16:54 <Sgeo> Is there a list?
07:16:58 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ quotese \ run \ share \ test \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
07:17:24 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ botsnack \ calc \ define \ delquote \ emoclew \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma+ \ learn \ log \ logurl \ lua \ luac \ luarocks \ luarocks-admin \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ No \ pastaquote \
07:17:24 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of dinosaurs?
07:17:26 <fungot> fizzie: but i've got great names for everyone else's hypothetical sons! love! hate to break up with utahraptor." then, hey presto, you're a muslim! give me a challenge to me!!
07:17:42 <Sgeo> Who's on the list, I forget
07:17:47 <Sgeo> Is elliott on the list
07:19:02 <Sgeo> `run echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora" > bin/list
07:19:11 <Sgeo> I want to test it
07:19:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/list: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/list: cannot execute: Permission denied
07:19:25 <shachaf> Sgeo: you can put me on the super mega list.
07:19:27 <Sgeo> `run chmod a+x bin/list
07:19:35 <Sgeo> I am not maintaining the super mega list
07:20:00 <Sgeo> monqy are you on the list
07:20:06 <monqy> i'm on the super mega list
07:20:21 <Sgeo> Ok, so you're not on the existent list
07:20:28 <Bike> Sgeo: elliott is not on the list, but elliot is.
07:21:29 <shachaf> monqy: did you link 78 here before
07:21:39 <shachaf> or was that someone else/somewhere else????
07:21:53 <fizzie> Well-founded people are not on the list.
07:22:06 <monqy> probably somewhere else?
07:23:47 <shachaf> monqy: So any idea what these operations should be?
07:24:06 <shachaf> p a -> p (a,b); p a -> p (Either a b); p (a,b) -> p a; p (Either a b) -> p a
07:24:12 <monqy> oh those operations
07:24:20 <monqy> i think they should just be themselves
07:24:39 <shachaf> Well, they're weaker than co/contravariance.
07:24:50 <shachaf> Because you can apply them to Endo (Endo a = a -> a)
07:25:05 <shachaf> (a -> a) -> (a,b) -> (a,b)
07:25:21 <shachaf> But it seems like there ought to be a better version of them?
07:29:12 <monqy> you said something earlier about generalising to an arbitrary (co)monad??
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07:31:46 <tswett> forall a : NS, forall r : N -> N -> Prop, a realizes r <-> forall x : N, x in a <-> exists y z, x = pair y z /\ r y z
07:32:10 <shachaf> monqy: well instead of ((b,a) -> a) you can have extract
07:32:25 <shachaf> monqy: and instead of (a -> Either b a) you can have return
07:32:36 <shachaf> but does that truly help you
07:34:05 <shachaf> monqy: can you somehow reduce this down to only 2 operations
07:35:43 <shachaf> monqy: it's "kind of tricky" because Endo is Lensy and Prismy
07:35:49 <shachaf> but not Unlensy or Unprismy
07:36:04 <shachaf> prismy :: p a -> p (Either s a)
07:36:33 <Bike> isn't there some general thing that (a,b) and Either a b are, like a functor or whatever? Tuple a b and Either a b
07:37:11 <zzo38> They are functors, they are also swappable but I don't know what else they would be
07:37:14 <shachaf> (b,) is a Functor, and (Either b) is a Functor
07:37:22 <shachaf> They're also bifunctors but I think that's less relevant?
07:37:37 <zzo38> (By swappable I mean to make (a,b) to (b,a) and (Either a b) to (Either b a))
07:38:35 <Bike> so uh, can't you have one operation p a -> p q a b to subsume p a -> p (a,b) and p a -> p (Either a b)
07:39:46 <monqy> "not really" is a good answer imo
07:40:34 <shachaf> Bike: The issue is that one of these behaves like mapping and the other behaves like contramapping.
07:40:58 <Bike> should i even ask what the difference between contramapping and comapping is
07:41:16 <shachaf> map :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
07:41:23 <shachaf> contramap :: (a -> b) -> f b -> f a
07:41:58 <monqy> whats ... about it
07:42:14 <Bike> what does that actually do
07:42:25 <monqy> "depends on the instance"
07:43:24 <Bike> no, i did not mean that.
07:43:44 <Bike> monqy: how about List since that's the easydumb one for me.
07:43:52 <monqy> list isn't contravariant :-)
07:44:12 <Bike> right forget me go back to your whatevers
07:44:29 <shachaf> if you have questions ask them.....
07:44:39 <shachaf> that's a pretty good question??
07:44:57 <Bike> ok sure, what's a good example?
07:45:20 <Bike> a contravariant functor.
07:45:41 <shachaf> newtype Op a b = Op (b -> a)
07:46:10 <shachaf> contramap :: (a -> b) -> Predicate b -> Predicate a
07:47:02 <shachaf> for example if we have a machine that can classify cats (thats the predicate)
07:47:08 <shachaf> and we can turn a dog into a cat
07:47:15 <shachaf> then we can build a machine that can classify dogs
07:48:55 <Bike> not that crazy, which is why it's nice
07:49:20 <shachaf> in a vague general sense, a covariant functor "produces" things
07:49:25 <shachaf> a contravariant functor "consumes" things
07:49:34 <Bike> that is a pretty vague sense
07:49:55 <shachaf> for example [a] "produces" as
07:50:27 <shachaf> (Bool -> a) also produces 'a's
07:51:25 <shachaf> well ok it's "kind of vague?"
07:51:28 <Bike> so is map Predicate remotely useful
07:51:34 <monqy> Proxy a is my favourite 'a' producer
07:51:47 <monqy> Const b a comes in close 2nd
07:52:01 <shachaf> monqy: i kinda prefer "data Help a"
07:52:50 <monqy> Bike: well if you have the cat classifier and a cat->dog transmogrifier...........
07:52:52 <shachaf> btw remember my logarithm class
07:53:16 <shachaf> Bike: i think monqy is implying "theres not much you can do"
07:53:35 <Bike> "no" is like, one word
07:53:57 <shachaf> (well you can in this case)
07:54:02 <shachaf> (but it wouldn't obey the laws)
07:54:20 <shachaf> actually that's all you need in haskell i think??
07:54:56 <Bike> law number 2: "the rest of haskell"
07:55:17 <shachaf> monqy: it's because of "parateremicity"
07:55:26 <shachaf> at least it works for functors
07:55:35 <shachaf> i guess why wouldn't it work for contravariant functors
07:55:47 <monqy> i hvaent thought about it
07:55:48 <shachaf> but actually i'm not quite sure what the proof is
08:13:07 <Sgeo> I keep thinking of covariant as being on the result side of a function and contravariant as being on the input side
08:13:46 <Sgeo> What's a non-function example of a contravariant functor?
08:14:17 <Sgeo> Well, input side isn't contravariant as much as it is negate variance, I think
08:16:34 <monqy> you can ``check out'' an instance list at http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/contravariant/0.2.0.2/doc/html/Data-Functor-Contravariant.html
08:16:41 <monqy> of course there are more instances they just aren't on that list
08:16:47 <monqy> but maybe you'll get an idea???
08:17:53 <Sgeo> Predicates are functions
08:18:02 <Sgeo> Comparisons are functions
08:18:19 <monqy> well arent you mr. picky
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08:19:58 <monqy> idk what you mean by id but bye bye
08:55:12 <zzo38> I don't have four energy!
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08:58:05 <zzo38> I want to add some command or parameter or something to Internet Quiz Engine to allow four boolean questions to take up one byte of the selector string, but am not quite sure.
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09:44:19 <Sgeo> Numberwang is the best thing ever
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10:40:08 <FreeFull> Sgeo: It's time for wangernumb
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11:00:07 <Sgeo> FreeFull, is the German one in actual German, or nonsense?
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12:03:34 <HackEgo> cat: list: No such file or directory \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3232
12:03:41 <nortti> `run cat bin/list | paste
12:03:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21316
12:04:54 <FreeFull> @pl \x y z -> cos x + cos y + cos z
12:04:54 <lambdabot> flip flip cos . (((.) . (+)) .) . (. cos) . (+) . cos
12:05:14 <nortti> why is there a command named list that is "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora"
12:21:18 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/16ffph/reddit_cofounder_aaron_swartz_commits_suicide/
12:21:30 <Fiora> nortti: it pings people when there's a homestuck update
12:21:49 <Fiora> I think sgeo set it up
12:22:16 <Sgeo> No. It pings people when I use it. I might be AFK or sleeping when there's an update
12:22:26 <Sgeo> And thus skip that list ping
12:22:39 <Fiora> clearly you need to like. hook it up to an rss thing
12:23:17 <olsner> aren't taneb, atriq and ngevd the same person?
12:24:43 <Sgeo> olsner, yes, but too lazy to try to figure out how to make it figure out which one he's using
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14:39:11 <Sgeo> If I can't find an open-source editor to change my file smoothly, how terrible an idea is it to just open the .docx as a .zip and change the text I need in there?
14:41:56 <fizzie> You should try it out anyway though.
14:42:20 <fizzie> (I'd like to know what happens.)
14:42:50 <fizzie> Plus it's just hell, right?
14:44:43 <Sgeo> LibreOffice refuses to open, Google Docs says "file:///home/sgeo/Downloads/resume-2013-01-12.docx"
14:44:51 <Sgeo> No, that's not what Google Docs says
14:45:03 <Sgeo> "Sorry, we are unable to generate a view of the document at this time. Please try again later."
14:47:30 <fizzie> That was a boring result. I was hoping for something more exciting.
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14:53:14 <Sgeo> Maybe if I just use Microsoft Office Live...
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14:54:12 <fizzie> I suppose Google Docs can edit too?
14:54:33 <Sgeo> fizzie, Google Docs does something with the spacing that makes it into 2 pages when it was originally one page
14:55:38 <fizzie> And LibreOffice does something silly too?
14:57:44 <Sgeo> LibreOffice does the same thing
15:05:22 <Sgeo> Microsoft Office Live, in edit mode, did some weird thing where it ignored some tabs, or at least didn't look like they showed up, but in view mode they were there
15:05:25 <Sgeo> So it was enoygh
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16:29:59 <shachaf> A whole new kind of monad tutorial! http://i.imgur.com/rxec4.png
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17:34:42 <Sgeo> Realm of the Mad God reminds me a very little of Mutation
17:35:07 <Sgeo> In that there's an end boss and everyone in the world is affected by the fight and by defeating the boss
17:36:37 <shachaf> Sgeo: Which lists am I on now?
17:36:56 <Sgeo> The "if I remember, and see OOTS update, I'll tell you" list
17:37:13 <shachaf> What about the super mega list?
17:37:25 <shachaf> And that one other list, I've forgotten what it's called.
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19:38:51 <Sgeo> shachaf, you're not on those lists, even if you think you're on those lists, because I'm not thinking about those lists
19:40:17 <Taneb> Sgeo, add shachaf to the lists
19:40:29 <Sgeo> I can add shachaf to the list list
19:40:41 <Sgeo> `run echo shachaf >> bin/list
19:40:54 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora \ shachaf
19:41:12 <Taneb> I like how I'm 60% of the lsit
19:41:30 <Taneb> Gregor, can you add a way for HackEgo to see the channel's userlist?
19:41:48 * Sgeo would be too lazy to use that functionality, probably
19:42:09 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/shachaf// the_list
19:42:11 <HackEgo> sed: can't read the_list: No such file or directory
19:42:22 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list
19:42:35 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/Fiora/Fiora shachaf/' bin/list # fixed
19:42:42 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora shachaf
19:44:17 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list
19:45:31 <Taneb> I'm 75% of the list, and I'm gonna see it at the same time as Sgeo now
19:48:11 <elliott> shachaf: You left a trailing space.
19:48:56 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list
19:49:05 <shachaf> If you don't like trailing spaces, you fix it.
19:49:07 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list
19:49:23 <zzo38> FireFly's Pokemon Card puzzle seems something wrong with it; it doesn't seem to work.
19:49:42 <elliott> shachaf: I'm not the one changing bin/list!
19:50:57 <olsner> `run echo echo \''tail -n +2 $0 | paste -s -d" "; exit 0'\' \>\$1\;chmod +x \$1 > bin/makelist
19:54:50 <olsner> hmm, paste is not the normal paste in hackego
19:58:24 <Sgeo> I think Realm of the Mad God would be more interesting if death was a total reset
19:58:58 <Sgeo> Rather than "Oh, you can keep items in vaults, more if you pay RL money, and you accumulate fame over time that doesn't reset on death that gives you stuff"
19:59:37 <olsner> perhaps Realm of the Mad God is not interesting under any circumstances
20:00:53 <Sgeo> I do generally like the idea of stats not being a permanent account thing though
20:01:02 <Sgeo> That's also a thing that interests me about LoL
20:01:17 <Sgeo> (Although in both LoL and RotMG, there are permanent stats)
20:02:43 <nortti> `sed -i bin/list 1s/$/shachaf nortti/
20:02:44 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
20:02:50 -!- monqy has joined.
20:03:07 <nortti> `run sed -i '1s/$/shachaf nortti/' bin/list
20:03:46 <shachaf> nortti..................................................
20:04:40 <HackEgo> cat: bin/list: No such file or directory
20:05:10 <HackEgo> cat: bin/list: No such file or directory
20:05:17 <Taneb> How tall is Michael Cera
20:05:34 <nortti> `run echo 'echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora shachaf nortti' > bin/list
20:05:57 <nortti> `run echo 'echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti' > bin/list
20:06:21 <monqy> hey guys whats up (is it dumb)
20:06:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:06:52 <Sgeo> Wait, nortti is capable of reading Homestuck?
20:07:14 <elliott> FreeFull: Please don't use `revert if you don't know how it works.
20:07:46 <elliott> (One commit before `revert 4.)
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20:25:41 <nortti> `run echo 'echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti' > bin/list
20:25:52 <HackEgo> 106) <fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
20:26:07 <Bike> `run echo " elliot" >> bin/list
20:26:12 <HackEgo> 53) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
20:26:29 <shachaf> i nominate quote 53 for deletion
20:26:33 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti \ elliot
20:27:17 <nortti> 22:06 < Sgeo> Wait, nortti is capable of reading Homestuck? <-- at least I think I am. it seems to work with seamonkey 1.1.19
20:27:30 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti \ elliot
20:27:55 <nortti> `sed -i '2d;1s/$/ elliott/' bin/list
20:27:56 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
20:28:09 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
20:28:21 <Sgeo> nortti, even the flash animations?
20:28:23 <nortti> `run sed -i '2d;1s/$/ elliott/' bin/list
20:28:29 <Sgeo> And HTML5 games?
20:29:06 <nortti> I'll have to check that out
20:29:10 <Sgeo> The HTML5 games are kind of important
20:29:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:29:21 <Sgeo> I guess you could watch YouTube videos of people playing them
20:29:51 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti \ elliot
20:30:04 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
20:30:11 <nortti> `run sed -i 2d bin/list
20:30:22 <fizzie> I always put an -e for the expression there.
20:30:34 <shachaf> monqy: i like FLOAT FAR REMOTE too
20:31:10 -!- ssue has joined.
20:31:46 <fizzie> Even if it's not strictly necessary.
20:32:55 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti
20:32:56 <oerjan> hm the ban list is the opposite order today of what it was yesterday
20:33:21 <oerjan> i cannot recall that i was on a different server...
20:34:51 <fizzie> Also I have to say I kind of like this Swype-style keyboard. It feels a bit like what I imagine the draw-runes-in-the-air magic in the Death Gate books to be.
20:34:56 <oerjan> perhaps there is some weird reversal when servers retell it to each other...
20:35:37 <oerjan> fizzie: do you see the ban list oldest first or newest first? :P
20:36:25 <oerjan> (i see newest first today, but it was oldest yesterday)
20:39:29 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:40:07 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:40:08 <oerjan> also i think the lines are longer, they are wrapping now and i suspect the "by gibson.freenode.net, " wasn't there yesterday (and that's my current server).
20:43:20 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=133
20:44:31 <fizzie> From /mode ... b or from ChanServ?
20:46:04 <oerjan> /mode #esoteric -b gives the same
20:51:45 <oerjan> <monqy> Proxy a is my favourite 'a' producer <-- that's _both_ covariant and contravariant, i'd think
20:52:02 <oerjan> since a isn't used at all
20:52:40 <oerjan> i'm not sure if there is any essential other way to get a type that is both
20:53:37 <elliott> data Friend a where Map :: (a -> b) -> Friend a -> Friend b; Contramap :: (b -> a) -> Friend a -> Friend b
20:53:43 <elliott> (OK, that violates the laws.)
20:54:06 <shachaf> oerjan: The thing with Void?
20:54:12 <shachaf> Well, it's all special cases of Const.
20:54:25 <shachaf> Const (), Const Void, Const HiMonqy
20:55:26 <fizzie> Mine was newest first.
20:57:03 <zzo38> When will they make Vatican III?
20:58:21 -!- atriq has joined.
20:59:11 <Bike> well let's see, vatican i was in '68
20:59:21 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:59:26 <Bike> so, by linear extrapolation, about 2059.
20:59:35 <oerjan> um wasn't the first one in the 19th century.
20:59:48 <Sgeo> I think I may have had a bit much coffee
21:00:19 <oerjan> zzo38: well the current pope isn't very big on having doctrine changed, i think.
21:00:40 <elliott> Hmm, I thought Vatican I just went back to thousands-of-whenever-the-fuck ago.
21:00:55 <elliott> Catholicism: what's up with that??
21:00:57 <Bike> nah they weren't in the basilica
21:00:59 <oerjan> elliott: they called them councils back then
21:01:14 <oerjan> nicea is rather from rome, i assume
21:01:15 <Bike> they're all named The Council Of Wherever The Fuck We're Meeting, so
21:01:49 <oerjan> hm indeed it's vatican council as well iirc
21:02:14 <elliott> so it will be Cybervatican3000.com III
21:02:32 <Bike> hm, apparently nicea is called İznik now. cool.
21:02:50 <oerjan> "Unlike the five earlier General Councils held in Rome, which met in the Lateran Basilica and are known as Lateran Councils, it met in the Vatican Basilica, hence its name. Its best-known decision is its definition of papal infallibility."
21:03:10 * Sgeo is attempting to upgrade from Kubuntu 10.10 to a non-obsolete version
21:03:28 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=164
21:03:35 * atriq is attempting to actually go through with a silly idea elliott had the other day
21:03:52 <oerjan> atriq: REPENT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE
21:03:55 <zzo38> Papal infallibility is rare, however I have read once that the way it was originally done was by popes doing bad things, however they corrected it since then.
21:03:59 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
21:04:09 <Taneb> elliott, text-diagrams
21:04:14 <zzo38> What is your opinion on the Catholic doctrine and tradition and so on?
21:04:29 <Taneb> zzo38, traditioooooooon
21:04:30 <Bike> i give it 7/10.
21:04:34 <elliott> Taneb: That was more "a thing I'm working on" than a one-off idea.
21:04:40 <Taneb> elliott, how far have you got with it?
21:04:49 * Sgeo watches it fail
21:04:49 <Sgeo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1524824/
21:04:54 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> What is your opinion on the Catholic doctrine and tradition and so on? <Bike> i give it 7/10.
21:04:57 <HackEgo> 912) <zzo38> What is your opinion on the Catholic doctrine and tradition and so on? <Bike> i give it 7/10.
21:05:09 <elliott> Taneb: Well, I don't know of a resolution to the fundamental problem I discussed with kmc yet.
21:05:17 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=170
21:05:34 <zzo38> Bike: That isn't very specific.
21:05:41 <Bike> (honestly not sure how one is supposed to answer that question. "it's pretty cool"? "i think they need more hats"?)
21:06:46 <zzo38> I don't know either. Still is isn't very specific, though.
21:07:19 <Bike> it's not a very specific question!
21:07:51 <Taneb> elliott, I'm just diving in and seeing how far I get
21:07:57 <oerjan> elliott: should i have put a [...] between those? Taneb commented on the same thing but i don't think it adds to the joke.
21:08:21 <Taneb> I was making an injoke which nobody here could reasonably get
21:08:34 <oerjan> Taneb: fiddler on the roof? >:)
21:08:43 <Taneb> oerjan, it's deeper than that
21:09:02 <Taneb> My school's youth theatre made that bit ridiculous
21:09:15 <Taneb> Anything that vaguely sounded like "tradition" would get sung that way
21:09:23 <Bike> elisioooooooooon
21:09:36 <Taneb> auditiooooooooooon
21:09:51 <elliott> oerjan: the elision there is fine
21:10:06 <elliott> only when lots of time passes or there's a significant amount of noise that would change the interpretation of the quote do you need a [...]
21:10:28 <HackEgo> 412) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
21:11:22 <Taneb> An example of quotelision
21:11:24 * oerjan goes to youtube to find how it actually sounds
21:11:52 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:11:56 <Bike> kyrie, kyrie, kyrie elision
21:12:11 <zzo38> Such as, do you agree/disagree/neutral of things in the Catholic church, doctrine, and tradition; and if you think some things should be changed, their relation to things doing in other parts of the world, their relation with scientific things, and so on?
21:12:33 <Bike> uh, i think the pope should shut up about condoms? how about that?
21:12:39 <Taneb> I disagree with the catholic church on many points
21:12:54 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, that is the kind of things I meant.
21:13:09 <Taneb> Condoms and homosexuality mainly
21:13:17 <Taneb> As an asexual, these are big issues for me
21:13:33 <zzo38> Taneb: I, too, disagree with the Catholic church on many points.
21:13:40 <Bike> well, that's the main thing. other than that catholicism seems mostly easier to deal with than the protestants presently attempting to run the government
21:13:56 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, that is also the kind of things I meant to ask.
21:14:04 -!- AnotherTest has left.
21:14:21 <Taneb> UK, it seems every single religion out there is trying to run the government
21:14:22 <Bike> for example i think they've been cool with evolutionary theory for at least a century or so
21:16:48 <Bike> why are you asking this?
21:17:14 <elliott> Bike: "Do or do not, there is no why." -- tolkein
21:17:14 <zzo38> I have heard once that the local diocese said that they respect homosexuality but would not have them married and things like that, but other people thought they said the Catholic church hates homosexuality. I agree that the church needs not have them married; you can go elsewhere there is a lot of everything all around.
21:17:20 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:17:42 * Sgeo would love not to be his step-mother's 411 service
21:17:51 <zzo38> I read a book yesterday about Catholic catechism; I disagree with most of it but I agree with a few.
21:17:52 <ais523> Sgeo: what does 411 do?
21:18:17 <zzo38> I disagree with humanist doctrine, for one thing.
21:18:18 <Sgeo> Information, I think, find out a phone number given a business?
21:18:42 <Sgeo> At least, that is what I was just asked to do, so not certain whether "411" was an accurate description
21:18:42 <zzo38> I also disagree with Trinity; it is completely illogical.
21:18:55 <zzo38> If you say it is symbolic, though, then I am OK with it (but still don't need it).
21:18:57 <Bike> oh, that's some old-skool heresy right there
21:19:13 <Sgeo> Wait, what's wrong with humanism?
21:19:47 <zzo38> They say humanity is the most important thing in the universe. I disagree; it is just one of many everything in the universe.
21:20:20 <oklopol> what's equally or more important?
21:20:20 <Sgeo> Humanity is the most important thing to humans, and to me that's pretty important
21:20:49 <monqy> um if there were intelligent aliens and they were my friends they would be pretty important to me...........
21:20:53 <Sgeo> Even if we're insignificant on some "cosmic" scale, I don't really care about the cosmic scale. It's not conscious, as far as we know
21:21:01 <Bike> have you considered gnosticism, zzo? (imagine me dressed in a mormon missionary outfit, holding a ripped up bible soaked in my blood)
21:21:15 <Bike> it's Pretty Cool
21:21:37 <zzo38> I have certainly studied all of those things, on Wikipedia and in books.
21:21:52 <Bike> then you, too, may already be Pretty Cool.
21:22:12 <SirCmpwn> learning japanese is reminding me of learning an esoteric programming langauge
21:22:52 <Sgeo> I feel weird from caffeine
21:23:56 <Bike> oh, also about catholics, i think missionaries should retroactively not be full of shit. that'd be good for all these readings I do. Thanks in retrovance catholics
21:24:00 <zzo38> "God is eternal [not limited to time], immense [not limited to space], contains all things, beyond human understanding" this much I agree with. "God chooses the Hebrews and makes them a people, gives the Jews a land, establishes the kingdom of David, ..." but this I just call mythology.
21:25:44 <oerjan> trinity is insufficently illogical to be spiritually true, duh!
21:26:56 <Sgeo> Weird and absurd sounding does not inherently imply incorrect
21:27:09 <Sgeo> It does imply that pretty strong evidence is needed for it
21:27:34 <Bike> evidence? your inductive inference is no good here, son
21:27:50 <Bike> btw has anyone been to Kyuakse
21:28:23 <lambdabot> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kyuakse/114985111848082
21:28:23 <lambdabot> Title: Update Your Browser | Facebook
21:28:29 <elliott> "humanity is the most important thing to humans" s/humans/humans who believe humanity is the most important thing to them/ presumably
21:28:48 <Bike> It's a small town in Burma.
21:28:52 <elliott> Bike: "retrovance" is a good word
21:30:10 <oerjan> Bike: a more serious google search suggests it's spelled "kyaukse"
21:30:35 <elliott> It is famous for the Kyaukse Elephant Dance.
21:30:57 <Bike> so it is. i blame transliteration
21:30:58 <elliott> hmm, Wikipedia calls the country "Myanmar" in that article. but the link is to a redirect to "Burma".
21:31:15 <Bike> it was called myanmar in the past, o'course
21:31:31 * elliott knows about the whole naming thing
21:31:37 <elliott> but it's interesting that Wikipedia can't decide which to use
21:32:14 <Bike> i would guess it's because nobody gives half a damn about kyaukse or its wikipedia article. or maybe some people do, and they're the people who edit articles on forgettable townships.
21:32:45 <elliott> so why are you asking us whether we have been there exactly :P
21:33:09 <Bike> because burma is more interesting than idle inexpert theology
21:33:10 <olsner> according to tvtropes, myanmar and burma are spelled the same way in burmese (or whatever their script is called)
21:33:19 <elliott> that's a damn good point Bike
21:34:04 <zzo38> Well, you are correct that weird and absurd sounding does not inherently imply incorrect; nevertheless, to me, Trinity is only symbolic. It is my opinion.
21:34:42 <zzo38> Did you write on Wikipedia talk page about name of the countries, if it is necessary?
21:35:59 <Bike> hm, there are lots of norwegians here, right? how do i get to the point where i can recognize what country the name Fiskesjö is from without having to look it up? do i lick you or something?
21:36:10 <elliott> Bike: It's Finns we have a lot of.
21:36:13 <Sgeo> Does food help calm caffeinated nerves?
21:36:22 <Bike> darn and the name is swedish
21:36:22 <elliott> Feel free to lick oerjan tohugh
21:36:24 <olsner> Bike: shachaf is norwegian
21:36:27 <oerjan> zzo38: i doubt there is any point in us rehashing an old political issue on wikipedia
21:36:41 <elliott> oerjan: Well, it should be consistent with what the article on the country itself is called.
21:36:44 <elliott> Maybe I'll just change it.
21:37:21 <Bike> well norwegia is in eurasia.
21:37:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, if it is already there, there is no point, you are correct. But first you should see if it is already!
21:37:51 <oerjan> Bike: ö is the swedish letter, the danish and norweigan equivalent would be ø. otherwise, the _spelling_ seems norwegian to me, although it might be swedish as well; i think danish uses "sø" for the final subword.
21:37:59 <oerjan> (fish lake, basically)
21:38:21 <Bike> What about the first name, Magnus? Mostly that just makes me think of an Icelandic strongman.
21:39:10 <Bike> Maybe I should have just skipped to looking up his faculty page instead of guessing nationalities randomly.
21:39:21 <elliott> oerjan: do you really call your country "norwegia"
21:39:35 <oerjan> elliott: not in norwegian, no.
21:39:50 <elliott> is this about the nynorsk bokmal thing
21:40:02 <oerjan> the polish might call it that, they have w and words that look similar.
21:40:16 <oerjan> noreg is nynorsk, norge is bokmål.
21:40:47 <olsner> I suspect they just misspelled it while writing the nynorsk dictionary
21:40:50 <elliott> oh that top google result is the pl wikipedia article
21:41:05 <Sgeo> Hmm, some page I found seems to be reassuring, but on the other hand, it seems to be agenda-y
21:41:18 <oerjan> these are presumably both from an older form similar to "norveg", which basically means north way
21:41:43 <olsner> apparently it's noregsland in faroese
21:42:07 <elliott> Sgeo: ...reassuring about what
21:42:17 <Bike> the caffeine agenda
21:42:54 <oerjan> Bike: afaict fiskesjø is not used as any well-known norwegian place name
21:42:59 <Sgeo> elliott, whether I might be in danger from how much coffee I had
21:43:31 <oerjan> and latin called it "norvegia", from which many others may have borrowed it
21:43:51 <elliott> Sgeo: how much coffee have you drinken exactly...
21:44:00 <Sgeo> One extra-large cup
21:44:02 <oerjan> to a norwegian, "norvegia" is a rather bland brand of cheese.
21:44:11 <Bike> coffee isn't exactly a hard drug man
21:44:21 <Bike> unless you cut it with heroin or something you're fine
21:44:23 <oerjan> which for some reason gets marketed out the wazoo.
21:44:38 <Bike> and latin called it "norvegia" <-- vindication
21:44:51 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:45:05 <elliott> Sgeo: how are you going to die from one cup of coffee exactly
21:45:11 <elliott> people drink lots of coffee sgeo....
21:45:15 <monqy> elliott: um it was extra large
21:45:32 <monqy> he probably hasnt adjusted to the shock & terror
21:46:04 <Bike> sgeo, you really should have done some coke or hookers or telnet or something in college to loosen you up.
21:46:12 <oerjan> Bike: there are indeed many danish lakes called fiskesø, although seemingly not as the sole name
21:46:50 <elliott> Bike: telling kids to use telnet is just irresponsible
21:46:57 <elliott> what if someone steals their password
21:46:57 <olsner> Bike: maybe you could just ask magnus where he comes from
21:47:14 <Sgeo> I've telnetted before
21:47:15 <Bike> that sounds hard
21:47:42 <Bike> elliott: you gotta take risks when you're young man
21:47:56 <Sgeo> Mostly just to play on public NetHack servers though
21:48:05 <Bike> "I have written on Scandinavian outlaws, and a recent pamphlet addressed sovereign power more generally, through a discussion of the annual ritualized U.S. presidential pardon granted to one Thanksgiving turkey."
21:48:09 <olsner> the list of publications does include a bunch of entries with the note "(In Swedish)."
21:49:20 <Sgeo> I do think I'm above however much caffeine I should be consuming, I feel really weird
21:49:37 <monqy> have you ever had caffeine before, sgeo
21:50:04 <Bike> sgeo, it's a stim
21:50:07 <Bike> it stimulates you
21:50:59 <oerjan> Bike: Magnus is a common norwegian name, our crown prince is named Håkon Magnus and his son is Sverre Magnus. also five medieval kings. however it is clearly borrowed from latin "magnus", great, probably via Carolus Magnus, the latin name of Charlemagne.
21:51:12 <Bike> i didn't know you even had a prince.
21:51:34 <elliott> oerjan: um magnus isn't THAT great imo
21:52:13 <elliott> topical: super mega magnus
21:52:48 <oerjan> oh and we shouldn't forget Magnus Carlsen >:)
21:53:39 <oerjan> elliott: it _means_ "great" you doofus :)
21:54:10 <elliott> oerjan: I take it Ørjan means frog-killer
21:54:18 <Bike> there are levels of irony here i don't think i understand
21:54:19 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:54:33 <oerjan> no, it means farmer, originally.
21:54:44 <oerjan> Bike: yeah obviously elliott realized that
21:56:17 <oerjan> four swedish kings as well
21:57:03 <oerjan> only one of which could be considered scandinavian, though
21:57:55 <oerjan> but now i'm just summarizing the english wikipedia.
21:58:02 <olsner> the current swedish royalty was imported from france
21:58:14 -!- ion has joined.
21:58:39 <oerjan> olsner: i understand they're quite happy to borrow medieval names nevertheless.
21:59:48 <oerjan> otoh wasn't there some noise about victoria's daughter not having any good swedish name
22:00:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
22:00:30 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
22:00:30 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
22:01:05 <oerjan> "Estelle Silvia Ewa Mary" pretty much
22:01:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:08:17 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:08:55 <oerjan> <nortti> `run cat list | paste <-- `url hth
22:09:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/'"$1" \ else \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/' \ fi
22:10:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/list
22:10:31 <oerjan> mind you that file isn't there
22:10:45 <Bike> is this a ghost??
22:10:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
22:11:35 <HackEgo> tail -n +2 $0 | xargs echo; exit 0 \ shachaf
22:11:39 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti elliot
22:12:57 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/^echo .*tip\//url /' bin/paste
22:13:12 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/paste: line 13: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/paste: line 15: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:13:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ url paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
22:14:18 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:14:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
22:14:19 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:15:03 <oerjan> `run sed -i "s/paste.'/paste./" bin/paste
22:15:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25721
22:15:44 <oerjan> elliott: i like HackEgo's commands being modular
22:18:38 <oerjan> interestingly paste has no collision prevention.
22:20:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ url paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
22:20:44 <zzo38> Does any new C standard allow const members in a struct or union? I think functions (not function pointers) should also be allowed, but only if they are declared as const. I also thought typedefs should be allowed, but that might make the syntax difficult. (If a struct/union contains only const members, then the sizeof should be zero.)
22:20:50 <nortti> `cat bin/paste | paste
22:20:51 <HackEgo> cat: bin/paste | paste: No such file or directory
22:20:57 <nortti> `run cat bin/paste | paste
22:21:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12606
22:21:21 <elliott> oerjan: I suspect that might be intentional.
22:21:30 <oerjan> nortti: ERM I JUST TRIED TO TELL YOU YOU DON'T NEED `paste FOR EXISTING FILES
22:22:11 <oerjan> elliott: yeah otoh someone recently decided not to clean up paste/ and seemed to imply this was for making the logs easier to browse
22:22:24 <elliott> oerjan: someone is a hypocrite and also not Gregor
22:23:20 <zzo38> (This is different to C++, which allows functions in a struct but in an entirely different way; in a way which does not fit with C, in my opinion.)
22:23:59 <elliott> "If a struct/union contains only const members, then the sizeof should be zero." but why
22:25:14 <zzo38> The const members should not take up any space. Actually, const members in a struct/union should be required to be also declared static, I think.
22:26:17 <zzo38> So that struct s { const int x; } is not allowed, but struct s { static const int x = 5; } should be OK.
22:26:42 <lambdabot> `var' (imported from Data.Number.Symbolic),
22:26:47 <zzo38> Same with functions they should be static const.
22:27:30 <elliott> oerjan: what are you looking for?
22:27:38 <oerjan> FreeFull: a-z are basically defined in lambdabot as a = fun "a" :: Expr etc. except f,g,h don't have the :: Expr part
22:28:07 <oerjan> FreeFull: this makes them a primitive form of symbolic expression
22:28:30 <oerjan> and f,g,h can be used as functions since they are more overloaded.
22:29:35 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
22:30:26 <oerjan> (i think there's a var function which does fun + the :: Expr part automatically, but lambdabot chooses to import a different module's slightly similar but incompatible function of the same name instead.)
22:31:21 <oerjan> both var's have the nice property you can use them to show strings unescaped, though :)
22:31:34 <zzo38> What is your opinion of having static members of a struct/union?
22:31:46 <oerjan> text has the disadvantage it's strict in string length.
22:32:04 <lambdabot> bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb...
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22:58:58 <oerjan> FreeFull: `revert does _not_ take a number of revisions to revert, but the number of a revision to revert _to_. you need to look at the hg web browser to find the number.
22:59:02 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:59:55 <elliott> you can also revert N revisions past iirc though i forget how, I think I implemetned that
22:59:59 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision '--help'!
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23:02:01 <FreeFull> oerjan: Why did you think I thought it took the number of revisions to revert
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23:02:13 <FreeFull> Maybe I wanted to revert to revision 4 just to see what it was like
23:03:13 <oerjan> FreeFull: i tend not to assume people are pricks without evidence.
23:04:38 <oerjan> (some here would say even _with_ evidence. there would be more if i hadn't banned them.)
23:05:47 <elliott> oerjan: I don't think you're being cynical enough.
23:06:47 <FreeFull> oerjan: Well, you can always go back to a revision in the future
23:06:51 <elliott> I like how 4/7 of the ban list is the same person.
23:07:49 <oerjan> FreeFull: sure but if people don't notice soon enough there may be a mess of intervening information lost
23:07:56 <Bike> how does one get banned from #esoteric
23:08:27 <elliott> Bike: IME you have to try *really* hard.
23:08:37 <elliott> wait I got banned sometimes
23:08:40 <elliott> ok you have to try really hard
23:08:52 <Bike> how does one be elliott
23:09:00 <oerjan> now _that_ is really hard
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23:50:28 <zzo38> Someone banned themself from Wikipedia for Lent.
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23:52:27 <monqy> wikipedia is harmful and addictive
23:52:56 <oerjan> i think i recall someone doing the similar thing on reddit
23:53:06 <monqy> reddit is harmful and addictive
23:54:43 <shachaf> monqy: is #esoteric harmful and addictive
23:55:49 <monqy> i'm afraid of haskell lens, what if i get harmed and addicted
23:57:44 <shachaf> or worse, addicted and harmed??
23:58:22 <ais523> zzo38: banning yourself from Wikipedia is actually banned, in case it causes collateral damage
23:58:31 <ais523> strangely, banning your own bots from Wikipedia to stop them in an emergency isn't
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23:58:42 <ais523> despite apparently having the same problem
23:58:53 <ais523> presumably because the bans tend to be undone faster
23:59:21 <shachaf> ais523: Banning yourself from Wikipedia is banned?
23:59:32 <zzo38> ais523: O, OK, I didn't know those things before; now I do know.
23:59:55 <ais523> shachaf: yes, in case you have a shared IP address and you happen to catch someone else in the ban