00:00:33 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> Well, if they have a cryptography library that is standard, they should definitely have euler's totient <-- calculating euler's totient requires you to factorize, iirc
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00:03:57 <kmc> good goatkcd today
00:12:06 <kmc> "Somebody should make Goat-Alt-Del"
00:14:11 <elliott> wouldn't that be just ctrl-alt-del
00:20:00 <elliott> kmc: can you help me write a haskell function
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00:22:58 <Bike> https://twitter.com/PLT_Zizek so
00:23:13 <elliott> Bike: good yes i like plt_zizek
00:23:16 <elliott> I remember liking plt_zizek
00:24:31 <Bike> https://twitter.com/PLT_Zizek/status/174508222684737536 well you see
00:25:47 <elliott> Bike: those are precisely my interests too
00:26:12 <kmc> this is pretty god
00:26:44 <kmc> 'Large parts of PLT can be explained by simple Pavlovian conditioning. Java uses objects and is painful, so objects are associated with pain.'
00:26:47 <kmc> yes this all the time
00:26:58 <kmc> mysql / python threads / etc
00:27:10 <elliott> also https://twitter.com/PLT_Molyneux https://twitter.com/PLTAlaindeB
00:27:18 <Bike> i've heard people say that about lisp (and long ugly paren-full arithmetic expressions)
00:27:21 <elliott> I think PLT_Borat was the first
00:27:25 <Bike> am i a plt communist
00:27:33 <kmc> is there PLT_Marx
00:27:39 <elliott> https://twitter.com/PLT_Borat
00:28:04 <kmc> wowowowowow
00:28:08 <Bike> when i googled "plt marx" Duck Soup came up, so I think that's a victory
00:28:12 <kmc> i will make so many 'class consciousness' jokes
00:28:34 <shachaf> kmc would start PLT_ebooks
00:28:48 <Bike> truly, enterprise fetishism is killing the proletariats
00:29:53 <kmc> i fell in love with the first gimmick twitter account that i met who could appreciate georges bataille
00:30:18 <shachaf> i love gimmick twitter accounts
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00:30:39 <Bike> theory: all gimmick twitter accounts are actually run by continental philosophers
00:30:43 <kmc> shachaf: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090501163307/othertitles/images/a/ab/Let's_Run_This_Shit_Into_the_Ground.gif
00:31:14 <Bike> "The imagery of the novel is built upon a series of metaphors which in turn refer to philosophical constructs developed in his work: the eye, the egg, the sun, the earth, the testicle." cool
00:31:17 <shachaf> kmc: I thought I already had?
00:31:37 <kmc> also the actual Žižek was on Julian Assange's talk show
00:31:45 <kmc> they prank called David Horowitz at home
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00:33:56 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> i fell in love with the first gimmick twitter account that i met who could appreciate georges bataille
00:33:59 <HackEgo> 914) <kmc> i fell in love with the first gimmick twitter account that i met who could appreciate georges bataille
00:34:53 <kmc> Horowitz is one crazy motherfucker
00:35:13 <kmc> within a few minutes he had blamed "Democrats and the international Left" for the Iraq War
00:36:14 <Bike> Is his justification hilarious or just nonexistent
00:36:26 <kmc> i don't remember anything coherent
00:36:35 <kmc> no PLT_Jesus either!!
00:37:34 <Bike> «Horowitz also founded the organization Students for Academic Freedom, whose self-stated goal is combating "leftist indoctrination" in academia.» good, good
00:38:04 <elliott> kmc: is PLT_marx registered yet
00:38:18 <kmc> don't think so
00:38:31 <kmc> Bike: he was raised by communists iirc
00:38:35 <kmc> and helped the black panthers kill somebody
00:38:43 <kmc> and then kinda... made a 180° turn at speed
00:39:05 <kmc> elliott: surprise i don't actually want to run a gimmick Twitter account
00:39:32 <Bike> you need to run it? i thought you'd just set up a bot to search/replace on das kapital occasionally
00:40:29 <Bike> well, i guess that would be PLT_Marx_ebooks, which is one of the more specialized jokes I couuld think of
00:40:35 <kmc> 'the platitude that male sexism is keeping women from entering CS only reinforces the notion that the field belongs to men by default'
00:40:43 <kmc> kind of interesting to consider this one
00:40:45 <kmc> i don't think it's true though
00:40:59 <kmc> i mean it's not about who the field 'belongs to', just who dominates it right now
00:41:27 <Fiora> I think it's less "the platitude" and more that, whenever someone brings the topic up, a ton of guys come out of the woodwork and argue about it and don't actually let women talk
00:41:38 <elliott> Bike: plt_marx_ebooks sounds worth registering a twitter account to follow
00:41:59 <Bike> yeah, zizek is sometimes sort of... uh... bad, that way. apparently he said romani were the problem in europe or something. i'd rather just stick with listening to social scientists and activists on those subjects probably
00:42:12 <kmc> Fiora: yeah
00:42:23 <Bike> elliott: does the "wants to listen to incoherent marxist anecdotes, replaced with PLT jargon" demographic exist outside of this channel
00:42:37 <kmc> unfortunately there are often no women around, whether they want to talk about it or not
00:42:37 <elliott> Bike: um, like, everyone in the world?
00:42:48 <kmc> not so much on the internet but in these IRL communities with serious gender bias
00:43:18 <Fiora> kmc: basically it reminds me of this http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-finally-put-in-charge-of-struggling-feminist-m,2338/
00:44:43 <kmc> i can see that
00:44:44 <Fiora> I mean I guess I experience this a lot myself, I see discussions on the topic but they feel very uncomfortable to enter, and the few times I've tried I often get shut down
00:44:51 <Fiora> (mostly online but still)
00:45:33 <Fiora> there's also the single obligatory woman who insists that she speaks for all women and her experience is everyone else's and sexism doesn't happen in CS and hey boys do you like me yet do you like me
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00:45:39 <Fiora> and then all the guys latch onto that and use it as "proof"
00:45:53 <Fiora> self-sustaining cycle etc <_>
00:46:20 <Fiora> yeah, that article is. I don't know. just simultaneously completely hilarious and depressing
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00:49:09 <kmc> i don't know, when I read say http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/White_Knighting or http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Splaining i feel basically like i must be part of the problem no matter how hard I try and so I should keep my mouth shut
00:50:13 <Fiora> um... I guess a good start (just in general, not even sexism specifically) is to never talk over the people the discussion is about
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00:50:51 <kmc> but as you said, it can be really difficult and uncomfortable for those people to enter the conversation
00:50:54 <Fiora> like if a black person says something about racial issues it's not your job to say they're wrong or disagree
00:50:56 <Bike> well like you said it's not always obvious that you're doing that, like, if yeah well that.
00:51:24 <Bike> especially on the internet when it's not obvious who you're talking to, and in front of...
00:52:05 <Fiora> ... I think... I guess one thing is when people take up adversarial positions against <the existence of some form of oppression/discrimination/bigotry>"
00:52:18 <Fiora> that makes it uncomfortable for people of the oppressed group to enter the conversation
00:52:56 <Fiora> shachaf: basically, assuming you're not a PoC, you haven't experienced the racism a PoC has, so you can't really tell a PoC that his or her experiences are invalid.
00:53:25 <shachaf> Well, telling anyone their experiences are invalid is pretty silly.
00:53:32 <kmc> i'm more concerned about situations where i'm trying to come out against racism / sexism / whatever but still come off as a privileged douchebag due to some faux pas
00:54:13 <kmc> there seems to be a really fine line here and it scares me and makse me want to avoid getting involved at all
00:54:34 <Fiora> I think that the fact that you're worrying about that means you're probably reasonably okay
00:54:36 <Bike> same here, for what it's worth
00:55:22 <Bike> i usually avoid being involved unless it's a conversation like this. I'm too nervous to say "you shouldn't talk about Arabs that way" or whatever.
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00:57:28 <Fiora> it's kind of a viscious cycle equally though, since if none of the guys who are unsure of themselves say anything, the only guys who end up being in the conversation are the douchenozzles
00:57:38 <Fiora> who are the most frustrating to talk with
00:57:44 <kmc> oh well I will just try to read more and understand more
00:58:04 <kmc> i am kind of new to caring about this stuff at all
00:58:12 <kmc> maybe it's just because i'm friends with people who are cooler than me who care about it
00:58:27 <Bike> Fiora: well then I say things and get into arguments with people I like. oops :(
00:58:35 <kmc> not sure if that's an intrinsically dumb reason or if it's basically how most social progress happens
00:59:38 * Fiora hugs Bike. sorry for that :<
00:59:49 <Bike> kmc: well i don't recall any major social changes for minorities being lead by people not in those minorities, so maybe taking the sideline is appropriate
01:00:22 <Bike> i'd just rather be the quiet white guy in the march than the guys MLK wrote Birmingham too, i guess
01:01:19 <kmc> yeah i'm not expecting to lead anything
01:01:49 <Fiora> I feel like on a small-scale level, like with a particular community or the like, or an office, or so on
01:01:54 <Fiora> that making it a good environment is a responsibility of the majority
01:02:05 <Fiora> the minority can't really fix it in any meaningful way
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01:02:35 <Bike> well they sort of can, in yelling at the majority to shape up, but that's hard and the onus shouldn't be on them
01:02:44 <Fiora> and if nobody does anything you get things like tvtropes where a steady inflow of creeps scared off everyone else who used the site
01:02:58 <kmc> oh i didn't know about that :(
01:03:00 <Fiora> or reddit where it started as like this cool site about programming things years ago and eventually became horrible
01:03:15 <kmc> to be fair reddit isn't one community, it's thousands
01:03:21 <kmc> probably they are mostly terrible though
01:03:35 <Fiora> it's just like, in my experience the kind of people who cause problems for communities are had to get rid of, while the people they bother are quick to leave
01:04:43 <kmc> what i meant by "how most social progress happens" is that I think there's a distributed shift of opinion among the majority / privileged group, that occurs as a result of hard work and sacrifice by the oppressed
01:04:49 <elliott> kmc: I've had a reddit account for ~2007 and I can assure you the vast majority are terrible now.
01:05:00 <elliott> I don't even read anything but /r/haskell now.
01:05:01 <Fiora> but the thing is, like
01:05:05 <elliott> Sometimes /r/programming but exclusively to laugh at idiots.
01:05:05 <Fiora> for society as a whole, you can't leave society
01:05:15 <Fiora> but in a community, people who are frustrated with things just leave
01:05:21 <kmc> so i can try to be a better filter for ideas, rejecting the ones that are less fair and passing on the better ones
01:05:23 <Bike> kmc: tvtropes is a long boring internet drama story, but probably sort of instructive in that what happened might be summed up as the premier rule being "be nice", and having that used largely to e.g. shut down angry responses to calm neocolonial dickwads
01:05:37 <Fiora> it also got filled with creepy pedophiles and stuff
01:05:45 <Fiora> and the admins wouldn't do anything about it
01:05:58 <Fiora> and since users couldn't do anything either, the sane people slowly left
01:06:00 <Bike> so, stupid internet version of police shutting down protests in alabama, if that makes sense
01:06:15 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `[b0] -> [a1]'
01:06:16 <kmc> yeah it is hard to run any group bigger than a dozen people on "be nice"
01:06:19 <elliott> Fiora: I heard something about them trying to clean stuff up recently.
01:06:24 <elliott> But I don't know what happened to it.
01:06:24 <lambdabot> [2,0,2,2,4,6,10,16,26,42,68,110,178,288,466,754,1220,1974,3194,5168,8362,13...
01:06:31 <Fiora> fast eddie just decided to randomly delete pages he didn't like
01:06:37 <Fiora> like he deleted Lolita (later reverted)
01:06:39 <FreeFull> Wait, what sort of sequence is this
01:06:44 <kmc> i'm not sure why nerd groups seem to favor rule by platitudes, "be nice" or "be excellent to each other" or whatever
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01:06:56 <FreeFull> Is it double the fibonacci numbers
01:07:00 <Bike> watching a lot of cartoons instead of reading Darkness at Noon?
01:07:01 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
01:07:01 <Fiora> but yeah it was kind f a mess and I probably don't want to go into all the details >_<
01:07:05 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
01:07:08 <kmc> clear, reasonably specific rules have a lot of advantages
01:07:13 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b0 = b0 -> b0
01:07:20 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
01:07:21 <elliott> kmc: because you can justify anything you want if the rules are that vague?
01:07:24 <lambdabot> [3,9,81,6561,43046721,1853020188851841,3433683820292512484657849089281,1179...
01:07:26 <Fiora> I guess it's just like. it's really hard to fix a community after you've already scared off most everyone
01:07:37 <Bike> FreeFull: make a scanl for the goodstein sequence. thanks
01:07:39 <kmc> elliott: sure but why do the majority, who don't aspire to dictatorial power, go along?
01:07:56 <kmc> i can understand why "be nice" is a great rule for sociopaths
01:08:03 <kmc> they can get whatever they want while appearing nice
01:08:07 <Bike> kmc: it seems pretty sensible if you haven't thought about rules much.
01:08:23 <kmc> a lot of communities seem to believe that rules are just THE MAN KEEPING US DOWN
01:08:40 <FreeFull> Bike: What is the goodstein sequence
01:08:51 <Bike> man-down-keeping is more complicated than "the man exists", but that's an easy scapegoat.
01:09:05 <Fiora> there seems to be a thing where the more set-in-stone the rules are the more people are able to weasel their way around them
01:09:12 <Bike> FreeFull: try wikipedia. (it grows fast)
01:09:16 <kmc> Fiora: hm, that's true
01:09:25 <Fiora> like I know some friends who used to hang around GITP and they said it had exactly that problem, that people would take advantage of the rules to get other people hit by mods
01:09:32 <elliott> kmc: well have you noticed that most nerds are terrible
01:09:33 <kmc> what's GITP?
01:09:42 <Fiora> giant int he playground, some webcomic/gaming forum thing
01:09:47 <kmc> elliott: i've noticed that most of everything is terrible, do you think we could derive it from that
01:09:50 <elliott> kmc: that said plenty of nerds do like involved detailed rules!
01:09:55 <Fiora> compare to like, somethingawful, where the rules are pretty vague and the mods will ban people for being dumb
01:10:04 <elliott> which is also unimaginably terrible
01:10:04 <Fiora> and people who try to weasel the rules will get banned more for weaseling the rules
01:10:10 <kmc> do you think SA's community is functional?
01:10:12 <Bike> Fiora: that's why it's important (i think) to keep the human element in, like how court cases are ruled by judges and juries who, ideally, hear enough about the case to make an informed decision - rather than robotic "enforcement"
01:10:14 <kmc> it seemed pretty good when I was hanging out there
01:10:19 <Fiora> I'm not sure, but it seems vaguely okay
01:10:23 <Fiora> I'm not part of it but I know people who are
01:10:24 <kmc> but it's essentially a dictatorial oligopoly
01:10:31 <Bike> kmc: it's pretty functional as internet communities go, so not that functional but reasonable
01:10:39 <kmc> maybe that's fine given that they are not responsible for anyone's livelihood (well...)
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01:10:47 <Fiora> it has a lot of terrible people but the mods seem to utterly revel in banning them
01:11:07 <Bike> they actually are sometimes. They've banned this guy three or four times who ended up in Libya and Syria getting shot at. (tangent)
01:11:15 <FreeFull> Bike: I'm not writing that function
01:11:24 <Bike> FreeFull: weeeeeak
01:11:37 <Fiora> it's really a pretty brilliant business model, they must have made thousands and thousands of dollars off like, horrible MRAs who keep re-registering and getting banned again
01:11:58 <kmc> though if you do something truly awful they will perma-ban you and try to prevent you from evading
01:12:05 <Bike> i think someone tallied it up once and Ironic War Criminal had dropped like four hundred dollars on the placew
01:12:37 <kmc> some people also put money in intentionally
01:12:41 <Bike> it's a semi-effective way of assigning consequences to actions, i think, and that sort of doesn't happen on a lot of the internet
01:12:41 <kmc> post BAN ME threads etc
01:12:56 <kmc> get banned due to Toxx clause
01:13:03 <Bike> toxxing makes no damn sense
01:13:10 <kmc> or is it... the best
01:13:17 <Fiora> yeah, I've never understood that, it's this weird egotistical thing
01:13:21 <Fiora> but it makes lowtax tons of money?
01:13:23 <myndzi> THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST
01:13:27 <Bike> well it's definitely the best. just to watch people accidentally toxx themselves for both Ron Paul and Obama.
01:14:12 <Bike> though i think my favorite thing there was the guy accidentally posting in the third party candidate thread, and weaseling out of it by picking a third party in NY that nominated Obama.
01:14:23 <Bike> possibly this is remotely more on topic to rule-following??
01:15:47 <elliott> Bike: you still have hang-ops about off-topic chat in #esoteric?
01:16:06 <Bike> elliott: haha, I mean, I'd rather talk about rules than about SA trivia
01:16:49 <Bike> possibly this leads into an esolang based on vehmic courts? i dunno
01:17:54 <kmc> bicycle day
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01:22:58 <kmc> 'Hatoful Boyfriend is an otome visual novel/dating sim created by Hato Moa that features pigeons as characters rather than the more common human anime characters.'
01:23:06 <kmc> that's right, a dating sim where you date pigeons
01:23:28 <kmc> in post-apocalyptic japan
01:23:30 <Bike> fiora, wasn't there a pun in "hato moa" somewhere?
01:23:40 <Fiora> "hato" means pigeon
01:23:43 <Fiora> so "hatoful boyfriend" is a pun
01:23:45 <Fiora> and a moa is a bird
01:23:48 <Fiora> so hato moa is another pun
01:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, isn't that the one with the horrifying murder ending
01:24:09 <Bike> only if you romance the good doctor.
01:24:12 <Fiora> kmc: it's sort of a silly gimmick game, it's not serious
01:24:23 <Fiora> like a "look I can make a dating sim with pigeons!" game
01:24:34 <Bike> the main character is a hunter gatherer anyway, presumably they are used to murder and being murdered
01:24:49 <Fiora> but it is pretty hilarious XD
01:25:19 <kmc> i figured as much
01:25:42 <kmc> maybe i like pigeons too much
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01:26:07 <Fiora> there are some pretty ridiculous professionally made ones though
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01:26:17 <Bike_> Fiora: you sure it's not serious? they came up with a whole backstory to justify sapient pigeons
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01:26:42 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> maybe i like pigeons too much
01:26:45 <HackEgo> 915) <kmc> maybe i like pigeons too much
01:27:00 <Fiora> like the one where world leaders are genderswapped and turned into bishoujo characters and you date them or something
01:27:18 <Fiora> including obama and putin
01:27:19 <Bike> I've heard the manga of Das Kapital is actually pretty good.
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01:27:42 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> I've heard the manga of Das Kapital is actually pretty good.
01:27:44 <elliott> it's add lots of quotes day
01:27:45 <HackEgo> 916) <Bike> I've heard the manga of Das Kapital is actually pretty good.
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01:28:28 <Fiora> http://danbooru.donmai.us/pool/show/1805 <-- this is a doujinshi that tells the story of the communist revolution in russia and china (and the cultural revolution)
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01:28:51 <Fiora> it has lin biao and mao and everything
01:29:00 <Bike> oh it's not the one by kago
01:29:06 <Fiora> http://sonohara.donmai.us/data/fb46e9e8cc39d20f88867d5f4909b29a.jpg
01:29:14 <Fiora> it's the one with the "criticize Ran campaign" ("criticize Lin campaign")
01:29:35 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Is it double the fibonacci numbers <-- yes, starting at index -1
01:31:22 <Fiora> "why did you wind up here, lady patchuli?" "for criticizing sakuya" "how about you?" "for supporting miss sakuya" "and you?" "I am sakuya"
01:31:49 <Fiora> that was... wait what happened in 1953 I am bad at history
01:31:55 <Fiora> Death of stalin, right!
01:32:10 <Bike> the sino-soviet split was before that right
01:32:22 <Bike> no, wait, that's way too early...
01:32:31 <Fiora> yeah, that was later I think?
01:32:45 <Bike> prc wasn't really off the ground in 1953 anyway
01:33:11 <Fiora> I suppose that makes sakuya laverentiy beria
01:33:37 <Bike> that would probably terrify me if i knew who sakuya was? or something.
01:33:40 <elliott> kmc: Can you figure out this class for me?
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01:36:41 <elliott> kmc: You should start a Haskell blog and call it mainisusuallyanioaction
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01:50:22 <oerjan> is that kmc's way of telling about smbc updates?
01:50:56 <oerjan> hm apparently that's a phrase
01:51:40 <kmc> it's like http://www.sadtrombone.com/
01:51:48 <kmc> what does it have to do with smbc?
01:52:04 <shachaf> oh boy a new twitter follower
01:52:40 <shachaf> Twitter sends me emails from n-punpuns=...twitter.com
01:55:17 <kmc> my sauerkraut tastes like iron
01:56:16 <elliott> https://twitter.com/funpuns # shachaf
01:56:30 <elliott> monqy: amazing twitter account must see ^
01:56:30 <shachaf> elliott: ................................................
01:56:50 <elliott> at least 17.5x better than any twitter account you could make
01:57:20 <monqy> shachaf this is brilliant how did you come up with this
01:59:53 <elliott> kmc: what's your preferred commenting method in irc lines
02:00:03 <elliott> sometimes I use -- I think
02:00:07 <kmc> how do you mean
02:00:16 <elliott> as in when you want to comment something out on an IRC line
02:00:27 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/search?q=%23funpuns
02:00:27 <elliott> for instance to annotate a URL or respond to a quoted message that might otherwise be confusing to simply follow with text
02:00:43 <shachaf> elliott: <nick> blah blah </nick>
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02:01:05 <elliott> monqy: what's that .........
02:01:34 <elliott> monqy: how did you get that C
02:01:47 <monqy> with reverse video
02:01:50 <shachaf> elliott: how did you get that I?
02:01:52 <elliott> whats the "key combo" again
02:02:57 <Bike> oh i have bind on escape_char
02:03:04 <Bike> er, i have ^V on that. why do i have ^V on that
02:03:21 <elliott> shachaf: no, I rebound ^V in irssi
02:03:42 <elliott> Escape was the worst Monkey Island game by a large margin.
02:03:47 <oerjan> <kmc> what does it have to do with smbc? <-- only place i've seen the phrase before
02:04:17 <Bike> yeah there we go.
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02:05:30 <Bike> elliott: what did you bind ^V to
02:06:02 <Bike> more important than escapes imo
02:06:19 <Bike> i have escape on ^Q because ~emacs~
02:06:21 <kmc> Fiora: thank you for putting up with my questions / rambling earlier, by the way
02:06:50 <Bike> elliott: but seriously if you delete the binding you'll be able to reverse video in one keystroke
02:07:19 <elliott> Bike: reverse video is a tool to be used lightly
02:07:37 <kmc> <BLINK></BLINK>
02:08:45 <Bike> the cool thing is you can pick any two numbers and it looks hideous, you don't even need to remember anything.
02:08:55 <shachaf> kmc: You should use _The Little Schemer_ in your class!
02:09:01 <shachaf> Or maybe _The Little Prince_
02:09:08 <Bike> or both. use both
02:09:08 <Fiora> kmc: jeez, I enjoy talking with you, don't worry about it
02:09:28 <elliott> the idea that anyone would enjoy talking with kmc
02:09:28 <shachaf> How come nobody has read _The Little Prince_ despite it being one of the most famous books ever. :-(
02:09:41 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:09:42 <kmc> i think up to several people have read it shachaf
02:09:44 <Bike> who hasn't? i have
02:09:46 <kmc> i've read The Reasoned Schemer
02:09:49 <kmc> it's p. good
02:09:55 <shachaf> Bike: Internet people don't count..........................
02:09:56 <Bike> i'm even barely aware that there's a latin version of it
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02:10:57 <Fiora> elliott: yes, how absurd
02:11:25 <Fiora> /enjoying/ talking to a smart and cool person like that, pfff. what a joker we are.
02:11:35 <Bike> you're multiple people???
02:12:19 <Fiora> .... grammar. i am bad at it
02:12:39 <elliott> Fiora: ha! now you're implying kmc is smart *and* cool
02:12:48 <Bike> PoppaVic is talking now, btw.
02:13:04 <Bike> I'll be sure to observe his interactions with beaky
02:13:08 <Fiora> (let's see if we can make him flustered here)
02:14:26 <kmc> is PoppaVic another pseudotroll?
02:14:36 <Bike> he's elliott's friend.
02:14:55 <kmc> write that down in your notebooks now.
02:15:57 <shachaf> elliott: do they really call them copybooks in .uk.........................
02:16:09 <shachaf> (because that doesn't make any sense)
02:16:17 <Fiora> elliott: bike literally convinced me to join this channel by linking me to the jit spraying post I think
02:16:21 <Fiora> if I remember right
02:16:36 <Bike> elliott: see, and you said main is usually an IO action. for shame.
02:17:17 <kmc> sir elliott of hexham
02:17:32 <elliott> Fiora: it's true, people come from all across the globe to #esoteric to gawk at crackpots like itidus20 and oerjan andkmc!
02:17:40 <kmc> Elliott Hagastaldunum
02:17:42 <elliott> apparentlykmc's name starts with a backspace
02:17:43 <Bike> you can do it!
02:17:46 * shachaf isn't sure what's with the thing where elliott constantly insults people.
02:17:54 <kmc> elliott: that would be great
02:18:01 <Bike> does kmc really count as a "people"??
02:18:18 <kmc> that's almost as good as naming your kid \x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90\x90
02:18:38 <shachaf> elliott: It would probably be better if you didn't.
02:18:39 <Bike> like...the string with backslashes, or... the characters that resolves to.. or...
02:18:54 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know that in intuitionistic logic a linear ordering is stronger than a total ordering?
02:18:58 <shachaf> Maybe I mentioned that in here the other day.
02:19:00 <kmc> i think you mentioned it
02:19:04 <kmc> but i don't totally understand
02:19:12 <elliott> shachaf: gotta keep up my reputation
02:19:13 <Bike> because intuitionists are sailors, and knots also.
02:19:25 <kmc> Bike: in the future, 15 people will be famous
02:19:26 <shachaf> Oh, right, I mentioned it and made that pun.
02:20:13 <elliott> also the more I insult kmc the more my own power grows
02:20:19 <Bike> and I said it was because of that whole equality computability thing thingie, probably because i'd been reading andrej posts and sobbing.
02:20:20 <kmc> soon your hair will be orange
02:20:21 <elliott> it won't be long before I can take over the universe
02:23:08 <kmc> can you use amazon's recommendation engine to answer questions of the form "I know this other person likes X and Y, what thing Z should I get for them"
02:23:12 <kmc> short of buying X and Y yourself?
02:23:29 <kmc> amazon elastic birthday service
02:23:32 <shachaf> Open a fresh browser session, browse to X and Y?
02:23:44 <shachaf> I think they use what things you look at to recommend more things.
02:23:46 <Bike> i haven't checked but i'd imagine you can, try looking for "gift" in menus?
02:24:00 <shachaf> By fresh I mean no cookies, of course.
02:24:06 <kmc> Bike: sounds like effort
02:24:08 <kmc> but okay, if you insist
02:24:43 <kmc> it recommends i buy: hard drives, psychedelic rock, underwear
02:24:44 <kmc> for myself
02:24:51 <Bike> if the world is going to direct its efforts towards very efficiently convincing me to buy useless crap, i may as well play along a bit
02:24:53 <kmc> that's pretty good actually
02:25:16 <Bike> kmc: i get mostly knuth and kerouac. 2spooky
02:25:29 <kmc> also recommends the tv show i am already watching (pirated) in another window
02:25:30 <shachaf> oh, that's a kind of music
02:25:45 <kmc> yes, amazon doesn't sell the other kind of psychedelic rock
02:26:07 <kmc> a big crystal of pure DMT
02:26:07 <shachaf> How do I find out what it recommends for me?
02:26:14 <Bike> really? can you not buy radioactive materials any more
02:26:17 <kmc> you can click "your recommendations" in the menu
02:26:37 <Bike> i wonder if anyone ever bought the badonkadonk
02:27:05 <shachaf> And, uh, some stupid things.
02:27:21 <shachaf> I bought a big box of candy cigarettes once.
02:27:26 <shachaf> By candy I mean chewing gum.
02:29:10 <kmc> i love snowclone
02:29:12 <kmc> it's so easy
02:29:55 <Bike> word always just makes me think of how inuits don't actually have a billion words for snow (in the banal sense)
02:30:03 <kmc> shachaf: yeah well i bought this once: http://mcphee.com/shop/donkey-cigarette-dispenser.html
02:30:49 <oerjan> elliott: i am not a crackpot! you will regret saying that when i put you through my regretinator!
02:31:41 <oerjan> * shachaf isn't sure what's with the thing where elliott constantly insults people. <-- and gets away with it, too!
02:31:50 <kmc> elliott: i was in college man
02:31:57 <Bike> if it weren't for you meddlerjans
02:32:14 <kmc> meddlerjans would be a good name for an all-drunk hillbilly band
02:32:15 <shachaf> maybe i should be in college :'(
02:32:24 <kmc> how much college have u had shachaf
02:32:47 <kmc> you could work for google, that's like being in college except that they pay you a ton of money and they put a chip in your brain
02:33:04 <Bike> wait, you didn't get chipped in college?
02:33:16 <shachaf> Bike: I think they reuse the high school chip.
02:37:34 <oerjan> they thought they could chip me, but i just operated on myself to insert a small farafay cage around the chip. checkmate educationists!
02:38:30 <Bike> farafay should be a delicious pseudoitalian breakfast
02:38:59 <oerjan> -ay isn't much used in italian, i should think.
02:44:00 <elliott> kmc: good morning! welcome to america!
02:49:26 <shachaf> Bike: What brought *you* here, anyway?
02:52:35 <Bike> I... don't remember.
02:52:46 <Bike> I think we already talked about this and the answer wassomething about Sgeo?
02:54:01 <shachaf> elliott has squinting disease
02:54:20 <shachaf> soon he'll start to see jesus on toast??
02:57:19 <oerjan> i am totally immune to seeing jesus on toast.
02:57:28 <oerjan> mostly because i never eat toast.
02:57:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Is that because you don't want to eat Jesus?
02:57:48 <shachaf> I think you're *supposed* to do that.
02:58:51 <oerjan> no, it's more likely because i don't have a toaster.
02:59:31 <monqy> there's lots of toast without toaster
02:59:44 <elliott> oerjan: you don't have a toaster???
03:00:00 <shachaf> elliott: people in scandinavia don't have toasters.......
03:00:02 <monqy> broiler toast, french toast
03:00:49 <shachaf> monqy: have you been to scandinavia
03:07:38 <oerjan> oh hm "never" might be an exaggeration, there might be toast in some of those breakfast meals you can get in restaurants. never saw any jesus, though.
03:08:01 <oerjan> not that i eat those often.
03:08:12 <Bike> the plural is "jesii"
03:08:44 <oerjan> ...i somewhat doubt that.
03:09:10 <Bike> it's in the common translation of the infancy gospel of pseudo-matthew. lookitup
03:12:50 <oerjan> jesus is ridiculously irregular in latin, but it's sort of a -u stem, which means -ii would be a very unlikely suffix
03:14:15 <Bike> oerjan: this is totally aramaic though
03:15:44 <oerjan> so let me see if i get this: the "is so easy" meme is a reference to this beaky guy on #haskell, right?
03:16:05 <Bike> assuming by meme you mean whatever shachaf's doing, yes
03:17:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you see "the beaky logs".
03:17:34 <ion> That movie sucked.
03:17:37 <Bike> the saga of beaky
03:18:13 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/beaky.txt
03:18:23 <kmc> the beaky code
03:18:26 <oerjan> after your aramaic irrelevance i shouldn't have bothered to check, but http://www.gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm contains no "jesii".
03:18:28 <kmc> 2 beaky 2 furious
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03:19:58 <Bike_> is it true that Haskell makes you go through lots of hoops to accomplish practical things? <-- is this the "lisp is good for AI? also slow??" of haskell?
03:21:08 <Bike_> " what's haskell's equivalent of nil, or NULL, or None, or whatever the most empty object is?" ugh why do these things get linked to me, i can never stop.
03:21:34 <elliott> oerjan: you realise bike was joking btw
03:22:06 <shachaf> Bike: did you search for "love"
03:22:09 <elliott> Bike_: I hear you can't do side-effects in IO because of monads, etc.
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03:22:51 <Bike> shachaf: yes, and that's how i got to the design patterns bit. and i just got to it again. thankschaf (this is sarcastic. in reality, nothankschaf.)
03:23:11 * ion loves searching for "love"
03:24:05 <Bike> aren't those jokes super old yet.........
03:24:32 <oerjan> elliott: sure i suspected it but i couldn't resist seeing if pseudo-matthew was a genuine term
03:25:06 <Bike> i actually do like all those old wayside religious things, i just also like dicking around.
03:25:27 <Bike> "what's real analysis?" help me shachaf
03:26:03 <monqy> shachaf don't you think we've had enough of love&ease by now....
03:26:30 <Bike> oh i searched for "lisp". that was a bad plan
03:26:48 <shachaf> monqy: Don't you think ew've had enough of more than three dots in a row by now?
03:27:56 <shachaf> I thought it was kmc but it turned out to be Jafet.
03:29:04 <shachaf> Bike: haskell/12.12.18:04:52:19 <beaky> paul graham said that lisp is the most powerful language, and that all other languages are blub
03:29:41 <Bike> actually "most powerful language" sounds like it should be associated with zardoz
03:30:35 <Bike> the blub is evil,the lisp is good
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03:41:48 <kmc> wow The Atlantic is running sponsored Scientology articles now
03:42:33 <kmc> http://www.theatlantic.com/sponsored/scientology/archive/2013/01/david-miscavige-leads-scientology-to-milestone-year-/266958/
03:42:43 <Bike> when you say "sponsored", do you mean like a literal sponsorship or- oh, i guess that answers that.
03:43:31 <kmc> a full page ad that looks like an article
03:43:35 <kmc> and is about how great scientology is
03:44:15 <Bike> full page ad in a newspaper. that's old school.
03:45:22 <Bike> oh man are they doing the "fastest growing religion" thing too?
03:45:51 <Bike> What I'm getting out of this is mostly that they got their design sense from Stargate SG-1.
03:45:55 <monqy> if its growing fast that means i should believe in it right
03:46:58 <elliott> Bike: i was just thinking the first image looked so scifi
03:47:12 <elliott> this one time i knew someone for months (online) and it turns out they were a scientologist :/
03:47:16 <elliott> so i stopped talking to them
03:47:45 <Bike> an old guard guy on a site i used to use turned out to have been a scientologist and even worked on one of them ships once
03:47:52 <monqy> sometimes i forget scientology isn't an elaborate joke
03:48:05 <kmc> but most of them aren't in on it
03:48:09 <Bike> "Seems like David Miscavige and Scientology are on a roll. Also it appears the media have been missing the real story."
03:48:13 <elliott> Bike: in the present or the past
03:48:29 <Bike> thankfully i didn't really know him
03:48:39 <elliott> well it's not so bad if they left right
03:49:08 <Bike> well I mean, they were still a scientologist.
03:49:36 <Bike> kmc: so i looked at the comments and clicked on a profile of one of the obvious shills and that was a bad idea.
03:50:18 <elliott> Bike: so by in the past you meant in the present
03:50:20 <kmc> now your thetans are going crazy
03:51:22 <Bike> Basically he compares things to "Stalin's Russia" a lot.
03:51:57 <Bike> I don't know how to link to the user. "sorry"
03:52:41 <kmc> apparently MIT's student newspaper signed a similar deal with the devil after their staff embezzled their whole bank account
03:52:47 <kmc> maybe that's what happened to the atlantic
03:53:06 <elliott> The Church of Scientology Orange County, standing just miles from Anaheim's famed "Magic Kingdom,"
03:56:05 <Bike> paid articles... from yale
04:06:10 <kmc> the top picture on that article is...
04:06:19 <kmc> it looks like bad CGI from a bad sci fi film
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04:06:37 <HackEgo> neologic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:09:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcoerjan: not found
04:09:38 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome oerjan' > bin/welcoerjan; chmod +x bin/welcoerjan
04:09:41 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
04:09:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcørjan: not found
04:10:14 <neologic> why esoteric programming language?
04:10:24 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:10:24 <Bike> because it's not there.
04:12:51 <monqy> neologic: good question
04:14:02 <oerjan> ^ul (( )*S):((because)~^(it's)~^(there)~^)^
04:14:02 <fungot> because it's ...out of stack!
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04:14:13 <oerjan> ^ul (( )*S:):((because)~^(it's)~^(there)~^)^
04:14:42 <oerjan> why esoteric programming language: because it's ...out of stack!
04:14:47 <fungot> oerjan: you are correct. there's no freedom for free.
04:14:55 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ botsnack \ calc \ define \ delquote \ emoclew \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma+ \ learn \ list \ lists \ log \ logurl \ lua \ luac \ luarocks \ luarocks-admin \ macro \ makelist \ maketext \
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04:16:43 <oerjan> fungot: I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW THAT
04:16:43 <fungot> oerjan: not sure if you want to *stop* looping. there is a function call and been faster. :p yesterday i had a problem
04:17:02 <oerjan> fungot: so you are saying i am going in circles?
04:17:03 <fungot> oerjan: you mean it is a concrete example of what would be your customer?
04:17:10 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> fungot knows all. <fungot> oerjan: you are correct. there's no freedom for free.
04:17:12 <fungot> elliott: other than not being done by plt folks?) fnord combination to denmark, iirc. not sure it's simply a matter of orthography, not syntax
04:17:15 <HackEgo> 917) <oerjan> fungot knows all. <fungot> oerjan: you are correct. there's no freedom for free.
04:19:07 <neologic> [hackego] there are elements of this lang im suppose...
04:21:47 <monqy> hackego is a strong believer in balance and karma
04:22:04 <kmc> is hackego the karma police
04:22:22 <monqy> might be a stretch, but you could say that
04:24:35 <shachaf> karma police police police karma police??
04:25:55 <oerjan> neologic: this channel isn't about just one esoteric programming language. HackEgo is a bot which anyone can make commands for.
04:26:08 <Bike> as aptly demonstrated by helloerjan
04:26:30 <oerjan> although it's EgoBot which has a lot of esoteric languages, originally, although there are plans to merge the two bots
04:26:56 <Bike> typed befunge?
04:26:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 now has $(($(lib/karma "$1")+1)) karma." | tee karma
04:27:09 <zzo38> My basketball team is the most stealing in total, so they should be called Thief! But, they aren't called that, because I didn't know that at first.
04:27:25 <shachaf> zzo38: You should rename them.
04:27:50 <oerjan> Bike: i ... don't think anyone has tried making that?
04:28:20 <oerjan> at least not succeeded.
04:28:34 <Bike> neologic, you have your mission.
04:28:54 <zzo38> I don't want to rename it. That will cost a lot of money and fame.
04:30:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '<[^]]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
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04:34:55 <oerjan> was that thing actually grepping the entire logs each time to calculate karma?
04:35:33 <Bike> `cat bin/karma
04:35:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1 has $(lib/karma "$1") karma."
04:35:45 <Bike> `cat lib/karma
04:35:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ count () { \ hg log --template '{desc}\n' | \ egrep '<[^]]*> karma\'$1 | \ fgrep -vix "<$2> karma$1 $2" | \ cut -d' ' -f3 | \ fgrep -cix "$2" \ } \ plus=$(count + "$1") \ minus=$(count - "$1") \ echo $(($plus-$minus))
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04:36:18 <Bike> chameeeeeleoooooon
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04:39:53 <oerjan> ^ul ((shachaf-- )S)(::::****):*^^
04:39:53 <fungot> shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf--
04:40:27 <oerjan> you looked like you needed some help there
04:41:00 <monqy> i want in on this karma action
04:41:25 <oerjan> ^ul (monqy-- )(::::****):*^S
04:41:25 <fungot> monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy-- monqy--
04:41:38 <shachaf> oerjan..............................no..
04:41:39 <monqy> best karma?? imo yes
05:03:54 <Sgeo> Do I `list if I'm hours late?
05:05:19 <coppro> would it count as me beating you if you didn't :P
05:07:53 <kmc> http://boingboing.net/2013/01/14/dread-cthulhu-leads-his-cult-t.html
05:08:19 <Bike> they should have just kept the original symbols in the picture
05:09:10 <shachaf> Sgeo: I don't see an update...
05:09:29 <coppro> there is indeed an update
05:09:44 <Bike> like that they kept "ideal orgs" though
05:10:23 <Bike> also casually dropped in Marsh.
05:12:25 <oerjan> i think org stands for orgies, right?
05:26:38 <kmc> "We have temporarily suspended this advertising campaign pending a review of our policies that govern sponsor content and subsequent comment threads."
05:28:55 <Bike> haha, they noticed the shills?
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05:50:17 <lambdabot> The operator `L.out' [infixl 9] of a section
05:50:50 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.-' [infixl 6] of a section
05:51:17 <oerjan> why is it L. rather than the actual module name
05:51:24 <shachaf> That's the actual module name.
05:51:47 <shachaf> elliott: lambdabot has a lens implementation?????
05:51:58 <shachaf> L.hs must be the final form of lenses.
05:52:21 <lambdabot> The operator `L.In' [infixl 9] of a section
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06:26:55 <fizzien> Finally managed to bother getting this eduroam thing working, just checking what kind of an address I got.
06:27:23 <coppro> eduroam is pretty awesome
06:27:27 <fizzien> Also outdated, there are no huts left.
06:27:53 <Bike> That's the thing where you get free wifi at any school, yeah?
06:28:42 <Bike> we all do, shachaf. wadchaf.
06:29:12 <coppro> fizzien: it's beyond that
06:29:27 <coppro> also, mark your calendars
06:29:30 <kmc> McDonald's has pan-European free WiFi
06:29:33 <coppro> friday is the 10th anniversary of logs
06:29:44 <kmc> "logs: not just trees anymore"
06:29:49 <lambdabot> This is the END for you, you gutter-crawling cur!
06:29:58 <kmc> anyway that is pretty cool
06:32:14 <fizzien> It says pan-European on the local eduroam instructions page. But that might well be outdated too.
06:33:45 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/fGBV3.jpg
06:35:51 <shachaf> kmc: Are those two different ℳs?
06:37:23 <Bike> man, that does not display right here
06:37:37 <kmc> same mcdonald's
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07:03:26 <kmc> Wikipedia claims that Iran had a McDonald's for two days in 1994
07:03:40 <kmc> also http://www.datapointed.net/2010/10/the-farthest-place-from-mcdonalds-lower-48-states/
07:03:56 <kmc> i realized i was having two separate conversations with two groups of people, both about McDonald's
07:04:01 <kmc> and that fact disturbed me
07:04:06 <Bike> that sounds pretty sad yeah
07:04:13 <oerjan> were they 5 meters apart?
07:05:51 <kmc> neither the two conversations nor the two days in 1994 were 25 meters apart
07:06:36 <kmc> it would be very unusual if two days were only 25 meters apart, they should be more than 10^13 meters apart
07:07:46 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/the-6-best-dresses-at-the-golden-globes,30897/
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07:59:47 <Bike> the bot got eaten or whatever.
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08:09:30 <zzo38> I thought about sokoban compression. Run-length encoding with Huffman could be used, but there are many other things. All the edges should be used. All non-wall tiles should be joined to the start tile. The number of targets should equal the number of boxes. Targets cannot be placed in walls, or in squares that it is impossible for a box to reach due to too narrow corners and whatever.
08:10:15 <zzo38> Boxes cannot be placed in wall tiles or start tile, and should not be placed where they are impossible to ever move. Possibly spiral encoding might help, skipping the invalid positions.
08:11:14 <zzo38> There are also such things as, there must be at least one box which is not initially on a target.
08:26:42 <monqy> not with hackego down!! / have you made that exact same phrasing before / shachaf.........
08:27:15 <monqy> youve driven it so far into the ground!!!it's 6ft under(that's a metaphor for dead)
08:27:16 <shachaf> monqy: is that a monqyhaiku
08:32:54 <oerjan> How To Make An Undead Horse Trope In A Single Day: Shachaf Version
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08:44:41 <olsner> what's an undead horse trope?
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08:45:21 <oerjan> why i am glad you asked http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UndeadHorseTrope
09:15:49 <coppro> someone posted in chinese; reply was 谷歌翻譯是好
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09:48:01 <zzo38> Another use of zero-length arrays in GNU C can be to allow structures to contain constant data accessed by sizeof, and to make associated types accessed by typeof, both of which can be usable in macros.
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11:19:44 <zzo38> Is something like #line (2*3*7) OK in a C code?
11:31:56 <fizzie> It's just # line digit-sequence new-line
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11:33:04 <fizzie> (With an optional string denoting the file name; and a third form that is # line pp-tokens new-line which must after macro expansion match the original.)
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11:33:32 <fizzie> So it's okay to #define LINENO 12345 #line LINENO but it won't evaluate expressions.
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12:07:16 <ion> #line sqrt(42)
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12:40:32 <Taneb> HackEgo is off on an adventure
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13:32:16 <quintopia> is there a way to tag things on wikipedia as "wtf this makes no sense"?
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14:06:44 <elliott> quintopia: {{featured article}}
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14:09:06 <quintopia> elliott: i dont want to tag a whole article. just one sentence. perhaps [citation needed] would be close enough, but i really want [this would be illogical, captain]
14:14:03 <hagb4rd> i guess he wanted to read the article you're refering to quintopia
14:15:22 <hagb4rd> you can at least make your notes at the discussion boards. don't know if you can tag only one statement
14:20:44 <elliott> quintopia: you could just remove the statement
14:21:03 * Sgeo is curious as to what the statement is
14:22:20 <Sgeo> Oh hey PSOX is at risk of vanishing off the face of the Internet if I don't take action
14:22:36 <Sgeo> (Got an email from Assembla about having been inactive for almost 2 years)
14:36:54 <sploknee> impomatic, this thing Sgeo made
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15:19:54 <Sgeo> It's distressing how empty Smalltalk-related channels are
15:21:00 <Taneb> There's very little talk
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15:42:34 <sploknee> Taneb, i hear you were doing something stupid like trying to use gentoo
15:42:59 <Taneb> sploknee, yeah, that kinda failed miserably
15:43:20 <Taneb> Gentoo isn't for me
15:45:47 * Sgeo wants to try to set up Linux From Scratch at some point
15:52:41 <Taneb> Except now I'm in the mood to completely wipe my laptop
15:53:59 <Taneb> And get an OS that's more .... than Ubuntu
15:54:50 <boily> Taneb: as an arch zealot, may I kindly point you to that fabulous, magical, incredible distribution of superior quality?
15:55:14 <Taneb> I'll give it a shot, why not
15:55:28 <Taneb> As someone who's probably insane, can I use Unity on it?
15:57:51 <boily> some just did, with proof in the screenshot forum thread.
15:58:25 <boily> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1217765#p1217765
16:00:13 <elliott> arch is like a good distro except secretly bad
16:00:35 <fizzie> Hello today I am a dentist's office. It is a nervous place.
16:02:30 <elliott> fizzie: is there a dentist inside
16:02:36 <Sgeo> I think it's what's-his-name who said stuff critical of Arch
16:02:42 * Sgeo is very specific and detailed
16:03:06 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/254
16:03:14 <Sgeo> "I've decided to stop using Arch Linux, because I believe in The Arch Way. I'm tempted to leave it at that, but more detail is below the cut."
16:04:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:05:31 <Sgeo> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/256
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16:09:02 <Sgeo> I just caused someone to download a Windows game
16:09:18 <Sgeo> (Because they liked the music soundtrack that I linked to and wanted to see if they could rip it from the game)
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16:23:17 <kmc> boily: what do you feel about the Arch package signing controversy
16:24:06 <kmc> http://lwn.net/Articles/434990/ http://www.toofishes.net/blog/real-story-behind-arch-linux-package-signing/
16:24:44 <boily> kmc: I didn't really care while the subject was still hot, and I still don't. checking package signatures is wholly optional on the users' ends.
16:25:00 <Bike> is the latter blaming lwn's journalism?
16:25:24 <kmc> i didn't read the latter but thought i should link it for balance
16:27:21 <Sgeo> boily, but it shouldn't be optional for the developers to provide the means for the users to check package signatures (I haven't actually read any of the stuff, so don't know if that's the issue)
16:28:54 <Bike> «First, shame on you Nathan Willis, Jonathan Corbet, and LWN for allowing this to be published. This is not journalism- this is propaganda fueled by a rogue blogger who you've decided to let create a story where there isn't one. I'm going to address points in the article that are just flat out wrong.» right
16:30:07 <boily> Sgeo: that I agree with. it's the flamewars and other bickerings that annoy me to no end.
16:31:44 <Bike> yeah, why did i look at that comments section
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16:40:01 <Taneb> Burning the Arch iso onto a disk now
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17:05:58 <Taneb> What file systems are "in" this season?
17:06:59 <elliott> kmc: arch has package signing now
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17:18:59 <Taneb> This would be so much easier if my laptop's wifi thingy actually worked
17:33:05 <Taneb> Well, this hasn't gone my way
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18:30:49 <Arc_Koen> Early in his jump, it was about minus 40 degrees, which is that magical point where you don’t have to clarify whether you mean Fahrenheit or Celsius—it’s the same in both.
18:31:05 <Arc_Koen> they did the same thing in stargate once that was slightly disturbing
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18:49:48 <sploknee> Arc_Koen, but what if it's in kelvin
18:50:00 <sploknee> or rankines (god have mercy upon you)
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18:52:04 <boily> sploknee: I have a friend in civil engineering who was sometimes stuck with this kind of nonsense when she was an undergrand.
18:52:35 <boily> (but then, I wasn't in a much brighter spot, with our measurements in thousands of inches...)
18:53:03 <sploknee> i guess because the guy who wrote it is Old and also a dickhead
18:53:37 <boily> "Never ascribe to malice that which is caused by greed and ignorance." -- Carl Keegan
18:54:51 <sploknee> i didn't ascribe anything to malice! just dickheadedness
18:58:25 <kmc> yeah, engineers in the US still sometimes use imperialish units :(
19:00:07 <Gregor> All the tang of imperial units with half the fat.
19:00:53 <boily> sploknee: malice and dickheadery aren't the same? :p
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19:20:31 <kmc> woah copumpkin has 24,295 twitter followers
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19:25:41 <Sgeo> kmc, who are you on twitter?
19:25:51 <kmc> @shutuplambdabot
19:26:46 <Sgeo> followed, although I doubt when I see my feed I'll remember unless I go to your feed
19:28:38 <Sgeo> Erm, as in, I might have trouble remembering miuaf = kmc unless I see the name
19:28:58 <Sgeo> Also, I am again drinking coffee
19:29:01 <Sgeo> (less this time)
19:29:05 <Sgeo> (and not on an empty stomach)
19:35:37 <Sgeo> Multiple languages in the Smalltalk environment maybe?
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19:35:56 <Sgeo> I think there have been things to do that before
19:38:29 <Sgeo> Hmm, writing functions for local use isn't really a typical thing to do in Smalltalk, is it?
19:38:39 <Sgeo> I mean, I see how one could
19:38:52 <Bike> does smalltalk even have "functions"? well, blocks i guess...
19:38:54 <Sgeo> helperFun := [:arg1 :arg2 | ... ]
19:38:56 <Bike> i have no idea how it scopes though.
19:39:26 <Sgeo> I think some recentish Squeak or Pharo changed the scoping?
19:39:46 <Bike> i have no idea
19:42:43 <Fiora> bike is dragging me around
19:43:24 <Sgeo> Weird, Bikes are usually not the ones making the decisions on where to go
19:45:05 <Fiora> nor do tzetze flies oddly enough
19:45:27 <Bike> Hey, yes we do! As part of a swarm. It's democratic!
19:49:00 <Sgeo> Hmm. I think, to just mix together some Factor and Smalltalk thoughts, maybe what I'd like is a language with Smalltalk-ish syntax except the methods are not attached to objects but themselves contain code, and this code could, say, dispatch on first argument a.la Smalltalk, or do something else
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19:50:54 <Fiora> bike has powers of persuasion basically
19:51:05 <Fiora> "but I tried ##c and it looked like a bunch of language lawyer arguments >_<"
19:51:17 <Fiora> "well I just had this really cool discussion here about X, here's the logs"
19:51:31 <Bike> plot twist: X turns out to be basically a language lawyer argument.
19:51:38 <Fiora> yes. that is the ultimate plot twist.
19:51:43 <Fiora> BUT IT WAS LIKE, INTERESTING, OKAYS
19:52:13 <Bike> Sgeo: have you read uh... http://piumarta.com/freeco11/
19:52:24 <Sgeo> No, but I will now
19:52:26 <Bike> (this dude's a smalltalker)
19:53:12 <Bike> The dude I just linked you.
19:53:35 <Sgeo> I meant, which paper are you suggesting I read?
19:53:56 <Bike> The first paper there is basically a really basic thing about how to make multimethods in user code, or single methods, or like whatever you want.
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21:14:01 <Sgeo> So, GNU Smalltalk's IDE is sometimes considered not as good, but is it really considered bad?
21:14:15 <Bike> it has an ide?
21:18:16 <Gregor> A Smalltalker would say that the way you're asking the question makes it impossible to answer.
21:18:18 * ais523 calculates how to offend as many people as possible with an opinion about Smalltalk
21:18:27 <ais523> GNU Smalltalk misses the point of Smalltalk. IMO, this is a good thing.
21:18:33 <Gregor> Smalltalk doesn't have an IDE. Smalltalk IS the whole environment, not a suite of tools.
21:18:37 <Gregor> I agree with ais523 :)
21:22:42 <Sgeo> Is Smalltalk the only dynamically typed language that does not try to give a meaning to doing an if on non-booleans?
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21:26:17 <hagb4rd> maybe it's better for hackego not to disregard his private life
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21:26:50 <Bike> Gregor: well, i thought gnu smalltalk wasn't an ide, then.
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21:27:36 <Gregor> GNU Smalltalk isn't Smalltalk. It's some weird bastard child that results of ripping just the language component from the environment. To a Smalltalker, that's simply not Smalltalk.
21:27:42 <Gregor> To a Unixer, that's the only way Smalltalk can be useful :)
21:27:45 <Bike> that's what i thought.
21:27:53 <Bike> which is why i asked "it has an IDE?"
21:28:04 <Taneb> What do Smalltalkers and Unixers think of, eg, Squeak
21:28:50 <ais523> my issue with something like Squeak is that it's a very closed environment
21:29:06 <ais523> you can't extract a running Smalltalk program out of Squeak and run it elsewhere at all easily
21:29:20 <Bike> the main issue with image-based programming, probably
21:29:23 <ais523> this makes deployment awkward because you have to ship an entire GUI with, say, your server daemon
21:29:28 <Gregor> And to a Smalltalker, that's just some silly Unixer trying to drag their notion of programming into Smalltalk.
21:31:08 <Bike> would be nice if you could do both. have an interactive lovely ide and then extract the boring program to run on a thirty year old netbsd installation
21:31:15 <kmc> instead of deploying our server daemons inside a Smalltalk GUI, we deploy them as virtual machines along with an entire vestigial installation of GNU/Linux
21:31:45 <Bike> Or yeah we could just wait for everything to become shitty Smalltalk anyway.
21:31:55 <Sgeo> I think there's a headless.. something
21:31:59 <Gregor> lol @ kmc. Soooo painfully true :)
21:32:02 <Bike> Speaking of which: Whatever happened to the "Unix philosophy" of tiny cogs? Did that ever actually exist?
21:33:04 <Sgeo> I think there's a headless option to the VM, and Pharo has a "Core" image that doesn't include a lot of the IDE stuff
21:33:09 <Sgeo> So there's that
21:33:38 <kmc> i can't wait until we give up on this layer as well and start, like, shipping around images that represent entire fleets of EC2 VMs, all to be virtualized on top of some other crap thing
21:33:39 <Gregor> Sgeo: But once you've built something in the normal environment, extracting it and putting it into another image is somewhere between magic and time travel in terms of possibility.
21:33:55 <Bike> kmc: I'm pretty sure I read that Greg Bear novel once!
21:34:38 <hagb4rd> you mean there's no need to deploy them hard-wired?
21:35:10 <Sgeo> What is the big problem with just using the same image in -headless? The file size bloat?
21:35:27 <Bike> complaints about file size are always amusing.
21:35:43 <Gregor> Sgeo: Let's say you wrote a useful library in one image, and a useful app in another, and now you'd like to use that library in that app.
21:35:54 <Gregor> Sgeo: Now you have to meticulously extract all the relevant objects and inject them into the other image.
21:36:10 <Sgeo> Isn't that what tools like Monticello are for?
21:37:04 <Gregor> Yes, tools exist to ease the process. But the point is, that whole notion that that IS a process is unique to Smalltalk.
21:37:42 <kmc> well shared library linking isn't exactly ponies & rainbows in other languages either
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21:44:26 <Bike> is it really that different? if I write two programs in [non-Smalltalk language], and decide that the second needs some stuff from the first, I'll be copying out the stuff I need from the first's source into new source that I can compile seperately and then link
21:44:30 <hagb4rd> well ponies & rainbows would be a good theme for a new esoteric language.. have to keep that idea in mind
21:44:43 <Sgeo> I feel like Smalltalk's environment slightly encourages me to do version control, Racket's stuff encourages me to do unit testing
21:45:01 <Sgeo> Both practices I really don't do but should get in the habit of
21:47:49 <hagb4rd> you need version control in every language. that's for sure
21:49:12 <hagb4rd> but in best case you need not more than a reference to a version of your lib to make things happen
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21:57:20 <nortti> "In case you were wondering what Unix herpes looked like." http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/2/8/2/161282_v1.jpg
21:59:44 <Sgeo> "If your application has a military, weapon-technical or genetic-engineering background, or if your company produces landmines or is involved in the management of patents on food, animals or humans or is owning any of these, please contact info@exept.de. In such a case, we may have to insist on a non-free licence agreement."
22:00:06 <Sgeo> No genetic-engineering on Smalltalk/X :(
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22:03:32 <kmc> yeah genetic engineering is only useful for killing people
22:03:39 <kmc> either that or feeding huge numbers of people who would otherwise starve
22:03:41 <kmc> i can't remember which
22:04:24 <Bike> can they even enforce a license like that? BSD unless you're The Man?
22:04:35 <Fiora> there seem to be a lot of things like that
22:04:52 <Fiora> like, nitrogen compounds prevent billions of people from starving by fertilizing crops across the globe
22:06:03 <Bike> genetic engineering is a bit weird because I don't think it's even been particularly used for violent applications. like, monsanto are assholes, but that's because of how patent law works (so, the later clause), not because they're messing with liiiiife
22:06:43 <Fiora> has it been used for biological weapons?
22:06:50 <Fiora> though I imagine if it *has* they wouldn't be talking much about it
22:07:37 <Bike> I don't think any major power has tried to engineer diseases since like the 80s. Sarin's cheaper anyhow.
22:08:14 <fizzie> It's for supersoldiers, right?
22:08:42 <Fiora> resident evil is totes a documentary
22:09:11 <Bike> Of course there's also the "are you seriously not even going to distinguish retrovirus mods from regular old controlled breeding" aspect, butgah
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22:09:55 <Bike> not even going to try, rather
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22:12:20 <Bike> oh, biopreparat existed through the 90s.
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22:17:17 <fizzie> http://web.archive.org/web/19980626195924/http://www.dtic.mil/stinet/ndia/NLD3/camp.pdf "genetic engineering" for "military use" from the 1998.
22:17:28 <fizzie> Though it's not exactly for killing anyone.
22:22:31 <Bike> oh, i suppose i wasn't thinking of things notdirectly targeted atpeople
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22:53:28 <kmc> 2 fast 2 elliott
22:54:35 <Sgeo> There's a person named Eliot who does CogVM stuff
22:57:29 <ion> Inform him he mistyped “elliott”.
23:01:04 <Sgeo> Hmm, I don't think it's TCO, but the Smalltalk equivalent did seem to run a while
23:01:26 <Sgeo> Erm, Smalltalk equiv. of ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
23:01:29 <Sgeo> Which I wrote as
23:01:35 <Sgeo> [:x | x value: x] value: [:x | x value: x]
23:03:19 <ais523> approved abbreviation in #esoteric is e(l)*2io(t)*2
23:03:26 <ais523> note that this is longer than the original :)
23:03:56 <Jafet> !bfjoust elliott elliott
23:04:07 <ais523> Jafet: that's just a no-op program
23:04:08 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_elliott: 4.6
23:04:27 <ais523> perhaps we should have a no-op permanently on the hill
23:05:02 <Jafet> !bfjoust elliott (ellio++)*-1
23:05:07 <copumpkin> kmc: yay, welcome to twitter! my followers aren't very legit
23:05:08 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_elliott: 8.6
23:05:16 <fizzie> ^ul ((S)(:SS))(( e)S~^:(l)~^(io)S:(t)~^a~a*~:^):^
23:05:17 <fungot> elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot elliott eliot e ...too much output!
23:05:43 <fizzie> (The mixed variants left as an exercise.)
23:06:52 <copumpkin> well, I have some "real" ones who follow me for the right reasons
23:06:57 <copumpkin> most follow me for the wrong reasons
23:07:08 <shachaf> I just logged in to Twitter and they sent me a "welcome back to Twitter" email.
23:07:15 <shachaf> What are the wrong reasons to follow copumpkin?
23:07:28 <Bike> looking for cohalloween ideas?
23:07:42 <ais523> when is cohalloween, anyway?
23:07:52 <copumpkin> shachaf: expecting to get information about iphone jailbreaks
23:07:57 <ion> `run echo el{,l}iot{,t}
23:08:18 <ais523> copumpkin: do you actually work in iphone jailbreaks, or are they just hoping?
23:09:00 <Sgeo> I want to write a Smalltalk quine, but not entirely sure what counts as a quine
23:09:01 <shachaf> ais523: I like the idea of tens of thousands of people following copumpkin for jailbreaks despite him having no known connection to them.
23:09:09 <Sgeo> PrintIt on [] prints []
23:09:14 <Sgeo> Does that mean it counts?
23:09:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: If you run the Ruby program "", it prints "". Does that count?
23:10:08 * Sgeo decides to try to write a program in the workspace such that, when I DoIt, it shows up in the Transcript
23:10:12 <copumpkin> ais523: I used to, but lost interest around the same time I got sucked into haskellrama
23:10:19 <shachaf> It works with Perl and Python, too.
23:10:41 <Bike> an object-oriented quine would return something that constructs an object-oriented quine, i would think
23:10:43 <ais523> shachaf: so do I, that's why I suggested it
23:11:19 <fizzie> ^ul (((S)(S))((S)(:SS))((:SS)(S))((:SS)(:SS)))(( e)S~^:^(l)~^(io)S(t)~^a~a~*~a~*~a*~:^):^
23:11:19 <fungot> elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot elliot eliott elliott eliot e ...too much output!
23:11:46 <shachaf> !bfjoust hi (((S)(S))((S)(:SS))((:SS)(S))((:SS)(:SS)))(( e)S~^:^(l)~^(io)S(t)~^a~a~*~a~*~a*~:^):^
23:11:48 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 4.6
23:11:53 <shachaf> fizzie: That's a terrible BF program.
23:11:55 <ais523> now I'm wondering how much effort it'd be to make a decent-ish PRNG in Underload
23:12:08 <ais523> where "decent-ish" means "humans can't spot the pattern"
23:14:40 <Sgeo> [:q | Transcript show: q;
23:14:40 <Sgeo> show: ' value: ';
23:14:40 <Sgeo> show: q] value: [:q | Transcript show: q;
23:14:40 <Sgeo> show: ' value: ';
23:15:10 <Sgeo> The spacing is the way it is because that's how my original ended up showing up when printed
23:15:12 <Sgeo> So I just used that
23:15:18 <ais523> Sgeo: an attempt to make a Smalltalk quine?
23:15:24 <Bike> Have you considered implementing Smalltalk as a Racket language on the JVM
23:15:52 <Sgeo> ais523, did I fail somewhere?
23:15:59 <shachaf> Bike: The JVM is the thing that Clojure uses, right?
23:16:57 <shachaf> Sgeo: How should we know? You only pasted the source of the program. You should paste its output.
23:17:01 <shachaf> alt. You only pasted the output of the program. You should paste its source code.
23:18:11 <Sgeo> Doesn't work in GNU Smalltalk
23:19:39 <kmc> oh i forgot that copumpkin is an iphone bandit
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23:19:48 <kmc> it makes more sense now
23:20:40 <kmc> so far i'm finding twitter a lot more enjoyable than facebook and g+ and all these other newfangled social networks
23:20:48 <kmc> twitter is much more of a "Do one thing well" service
23:20:53 -!- sploknee has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:21:31 <kmc> maybe it's just because twitter is in a "making something people want" phase and facebook is in the later "extract as much money as possible from addicts" phase
23:23:07 -!- sploknee has joined.
23:23:31 <Fiora> twitter seems kind of like a neutered tumblr
23:23:39 <Fiora> with more techy social media people and less fandomy stuff
23:24:09 <copumpkin> Fiora: I don't see it as a neutered anything. I just use different services for different degrees of development of an idea
23:24:16 <copumpkin> I don't really get the cross-posting thing
23:24:30 <copumpkin> a lot of people auto-cross-post but it seems a bit silly
23:24:40 <copumpkin> who knows though, I might just be doing it wrong :)
23:24:46 <kmc> tumblr allows a lot more freedom to customize the look of your page, doesn't it?
23:24:57 <Fiora> I mean that like, it doesn't have a lot of stuff that tumblr does, it seems like largely a subset
23:25:09 <Fiora> not that it's a bad thing, since, subsets can improve stuff
23:25:22 <kmc> yeah, facebook is also basically a superset of twitter
23:25:41 <shachaf> I think Twitter is definitely a superset of a subset of Tumblr.
23:25:49 <kmc> facebook wants to be everything
23:25:52 <Fiora> tumblr's supersetness seems to be largely oriented on much better posts (larger posts, formatting, image sets, etc)
23:25:55 <kmc> they want to replace the Web as the platform you build stuff on
23:26:00 <Bike> facebook is a superset of facebook?
23:26:02 <Fiora> and better reblog/reply/etc stuff, and better customization
23:26:10 <kmc> but not a proper superset
23:26:29 <Bike> kmc: i demand nontraditional set theories from my social media
23:26:51 <Fiora> yeah, to be fair the customization can be annoyingly hard
23:26:57 <Fiora> I had to practically half-learn css to make my page look how I wanted
23:27:29 <shachaf> kmc: I hear there's going to be a Stripe Cambridge Drinkup.
23:27:42 <sploknee> and it can easily become a tool of war upon the eye
23:27:53 <shachaf> I'm not sure why I get all these emails.
23:28:47 <Fiora> tumblr doesn't force you to look at other peoples' pages though in that you can do all your interaction from the dashboard
23:29:00 <Fiora> so usually you can avoid dealing with that one person who has a yellow on pink page with autoplaying music
23:29:09 <Fiora> and replaces your mouse cursor with a sparkler
23:29:28 <shachaf> Fiora: Isn't that only if you follow them?
23:29:30 <Bike> Don't forget the ponies dancing around the screen.
23:29:35 * shachaf has a Tumblr account but doesn't use it.
23:30:05 * sploknee has a tumblr account and well you all know the rest
23:30:35 <kmc> then you took an arrow to the knee?
23:30:37 <Sgeo> I have a Tumblr account that is on Planet Clojure
23:30:51 <Bike> that's even more forced than being easy.
23:31:07 <kmc> no people have stopped sayin git
23:31:11 <kmc> it's retro now
23:31:41 <shachaf> As far as I know "people" have never said the easy.
23:32:24 <shachaf> copumpkin: Well, all the "cool people" are in Cambridge.
23:32:40 <Fiora> I wonder how many horrible design sins my tumblr commits
23:32:53 <sploknee> this is american ripoff cambridge yes
23:33:33 <kmc> sploknee: yeah
23:34:10 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
23:34:50 <Fiora> wow, the W3c validator hates my page
23:34:53 <Fiora> actually oh god what is tumblr doing
23:35:03 <Fiora> they put a <!DOCTYPE html> at the top
23:35:08 <Bike> Fiora: have you checked their js? it's ~obfuscated~
23:35:09 <Fiora> then they add in the tumblr javascript
23:35:15 <Fiora> then they put the actual webpage
23:35:20 <Fiora> so my page ends up with TWO doctype tags
23:35:52 <shachaf> I don't think you're supposed to have your own doctype, are you?
23:36:13 <Fiora> well, the top tag is literally <!DOCTYPE html>
23:36:18 <shachaf> You should be able to style script tags with CSS.
23:36:18 <Fiora> is that a legitimate doctype?
23:36:27 <Fiora> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ffioraaeterna.tumblr.com%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=XHTML+1.0+Transitional&group=0
23:36:35 * Fiora knows so little about web things
23:36:47 <Bike> Huh, I only got three errors.
23:36:49 <shachaf> E.g. have them all run at once, and give the ones with more opacity higher priority.
23:37:02 <Bike> " Line 14, Column 67: Cannot recover after last error. Any further errors will be ignored." oh.
23:37:14 -!- impomatic has left.
23:37:23 <shachaf> Bike: is this you: http://bike.tumblr.com/
23:37:26 <Fiora> I had to force the type to XHTML
23:37:32 <kmc> <!DOCTYPE html> is HTML5
23:37:41 <shachaf> Fiora: You should change your username to xn--fioraterna-h6a
23:37:41 <Bike> shachaf: http://bicyclidine.tumblr.com/
23:38:12 <Fiora> actually displayed on the page:
23:38:12 <Fiora> <head prefix="og: http://ogp.me/ns# fb: http://ogp.me/ns/fb# blog: http://ogp.me/ns/blog#">
23:38:25 <Fiora> the validator complains "prefix" doesn't exist o_O
23:38:29 <Fiora> "open graph protocol"?
23:38:38 <kmc> in HTML5 you are allowed to have custom attributes, I believe
23:38:40 <Bike> I'm guessing some social graph thing?
23:38:40 <Lumpio-> It probably doesn't. I don't think that's part of HTML
23:38:58 <shachaf> Fiora: It doesn't complain about it if you set it to HTML5.
23:39:12 <Lumpio-> I'm pretty sure the only custom attributes it allows it data-* attributes
23:39:16 <shachaf> Oh, that's because it comes across an unrecoverable error.
23:39:34 <Fiora> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en"> how is > a stray tag o_O
23:39:48 -!- sploknee has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:39:54 <Lumpio-> Wait are you doing HMTL or XHTML now
23:40:03 <Lumpio-> xmlns and friends is XHTML, <!DOCTYPE html> is HTML
23:40:13 <shachaf> HMTL is the best tarkup language.
23:40:16 <Fiora> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
23:40:59 -!- sploknee has joined.
23:43:47 <shachaf> copumpkin: So you're still doing Scala?