00:07:55 How worried should I be that it's easy to crash Smalltalk VMs from within themselves? 00:09:06 Very Concerned 00:09:21 Write a strongly worded letter 00:09:33 Also, that sounds better than SCADA 00:09:49 I actually crashed Pharo by accident 00:10:00 woops!!! 00:10:05 The fact that it could be done by accident is far more alarming than being able to crash it on purpose 00:10:17 Although I guess what I did was dumb 00:10:33 I gave the debugger thing the go-ahead to add a new instance variable to Dictionary 00:12:28 kmc: what was that north korean link you gave yesterday? 00:12:46 copumpkin: https://sites.google.com/site/sophieinnorthkorea/ 00:12:47 i'm kmc btw 00:12:48 I can't find it in my history now for some reason 00:12:49 thanks! 00:12:52 (kmc) 00:12:53 (i'm not actually kmc btw) 00:13:14 Keegan McElliott 00:20:14 kmc gave that link? 00:20:17 I thought copumpkin did. 00:35:18 `list 00:35:18 http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scraps2/sbahj_pressrelease.jpg 00:35:19 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot 00:38:24 elliott, ^ I'm sure you consider this to be the best thing ever 00:39:01 i can confirm that elliott considers this. 00:40:09 :∗) 00:40:48 :o) 00:40:57 honk 00:41:28 :ⓞ) 00:41:51 :Ⓞ) 00:41:54 help 00:42:07 :O) 00:42:50 Is that the Opera symbol? 00:43:08 Opera 00:43:37 In the font my IRC client uses, it's like an O with the right and left thick, Opera-like 00:43:45 Sgeo: 00:43:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sunday_Afternoon_on_the_Island_of_La_Grande_Jatte http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/00000001/mspa-sbahj-hardcover-pic4.jpg 00:43:55 .... is this actulaly a parody of that? 00:43:57 yep 00:44:00 I wonder if there's some grand sweeping point that can be made about looking at pointilist artwork through a computer that uses pixels 00:44:46 Wait, why is the second one not pointilist. 00:45:51 I don't know, it's sbahj, come up with any one of 5000 excuses? 00:46:09 why five thousand 00:46:14 random big number 00:46:33 these things have significance. 00:46:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aE1JOPS1Uko#! 00:47:02 You may as well tell Origen that 666 is random and big!!! 00:48:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:48:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:48:58 -!- augur has joined. 01:14:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:20:37 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 01:28:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:14 "One of the great leaps in OO is to be able to answer the question "How does this work?" with "I don't care"" 01:37:18 :/ 01:37:32 I mean, maybe if you're leaping to OO from Assembly... 01:37:52 sounds more like abstraction than anything related to OO 01:37:59 Also, not ... caring is icky. Not needing to know in order to do some task is really the principle 01:38:02 are you seriously reading pro-OO things? that's, like, so 90s, man. 01:38:21 Bike: Shh, this is Sgeo's channel. 01:38:23 olsner, yes, 100% agree 01:38:48 Bike, I don't think it's meant as advocacy 01:38:54 It's in Pharo by Example 01:39:18 And says about how newcomers to Smalltalk seem to want to know how every little detail works before doing something like Transcript show: 'Hello world' 01:39:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:39:51 like in Haskell where people only want to know what monads are 01:41:36 i.e. maybe that's just the smalltalk burrito 01:42:05 and of course, something something something lenses 01:43:02 Sgeo: that's because in Smalltalk, something like I/O doesn't fit into the language's view of things very well at all 01:43:13 in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe 01:44:24 ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O 01:44:36 Sgeo: yeah exactly 01:44:42 where does the GUI come from? 01:44:57 it's written in Smalltalk, clearly 01:45:03 and how does the GUI do its I/O? 01:45:12 if you think about the issue for too long, you end up inventing Feather 01:45:20 Ultimately it comes down to VM primitives I guess 01:45:32 yeah 01:45:39 this is the sort of thing that confuses and upsets an ais523 01:45:43 it doesn't really fit with the rest of the language 01:45:46 couldn't you just have a "system" object that you can send messages to 01:46:05 since the point is you don't have to care about the actual implementation of any object, yeah? 01:46:29 Bike: but it has to come from somewhere, and if you have a decent debugger, you can find out 01:46:36 Classes in Smalltalk aren't actually black boxes. 01:46:39 and Smalltalk cares about its decent debuggers and everything 01:46:46 yeah proponents of OOP like to take credit for the idea of abstract data types or abstraction in general 01:46:49 Smalltalk's as least as monkeypatchable as Ruby 01:46:50 Well, I guess you could make a fake class that fakes out the browser 01:47:05 Sgeo: or just do "true become: false" or something silly like that 01:47:12 (at least Squeak freezes if you do that) 01:47:15 well i haven't used smalltalk, but i thought the big idea was basically encapsulation, from Kay's talks 01:47:27 Making a fake class shouldn't freeze anything, though? 01:47:37 Sgeo: that wasn't my point 01:47:43 oh 01:47:49 you can just preëmptively assume that the actual point was incoherent 01:48:02 because we're talking about me and Smalltalk 01:48:12 ais is this a dialetheism thing 01:48:20 are you a truther 01:48:21 Hm. A programming language called Default. 01:48:34 Bike, yes, but classes have messages that when you send them, reveal stuff like the instance variables they define and the methods they define 01:48:38 Bike: no, it's because annoyance at Smalltalk is what caused me to end up inventing Feather 01:48:39 Every language component has some default behavior, but you can cause interesting stuff to happen by overriding this default behavior. 01:48:52 Bike: wow this is like the second time in my life I've sen the word dialetheism 01:48:56 you can define Feather as "Smalltalk done right" if you want to confuse people into wondering why that would involve time travel stuff and all that 01:49:12 tswett: Java? 01:49:14 Sgeo: couldn't you have "system" say it has no instance variables and then tell the truth about methods... 01:49:18 elliott: it's a good word imo 01:49:24 ais523: hm. 01:49:30 Bike, what are you suggesting is the truth? 01:49:54 Sgeo: that it has methods for interacting with the underlying system (if there is one), like print to terminal or xlib or whatever 01:50:06 In Squeak/Pharo at least a method can say it's implemented by a VM primitive by containing 01:50:08 I guess to make it an esolang, the only sensible esolangisation is "the only way to accomplish anything is by redefining the default behaviour of everything" 01:50:18 but that still doesn't lead to an obvious language 01:50:29 Sgeo: the end of the metacircular braid, as it were 01:50:30 and is ill-defined and potentially far-reaching enough that probably only cpressey could create it 01:50:33 and he's probably busy 01:50:45 * Sgeo wants to hear more about Smalltalk and how Feather fixes it 01:50:55 Sgeo: that'd mean talking about Feather 01:51:03 what do smalltalk methods even respond to? 01:51:11 Bike, hm? 01:51:20 you said "a method can say" 01:51:29 Erm, bad phrasing on my part 01:51:30 so i'm wondering what information there is about methods, if any 01:51:34 Bike: their caller, I think 01:51:47 they have a call stack, just like functions in other languages 01:51:47 As in, the source of a method would cotain 01:51:49 really i thought objects just took arbitrary messages, there don't even have to be "methods"? 01:51:52 so you can Ruby all this shit 01:52:06 Sgeo: anyway, the problem with Smalltalk is that you have to have a heavyweight OS-like thing to get anywhere with it 01:52:24 because of all the everything defined in terms of everything else and needing a really expansive environment to do things 01:52:41 like having class objects for regular objects, and ability to method browse, and so on 01:52:51 and the result of /that/, is that Smalltalk programs aren't portable 01:52:53 following me so far? 01:53:09 Portable from heavyweight Smalltalk OS to heavyweight Smalltalk OS? 01:53:17 That's how they're not portable, I mean 01:53:19 ? 01:53:28 i can't say i understood why every class object had its own metaclass object 01:53:29 Sgeo: yeah 01:53:41 basically, the common way to distribute a Smalltalk program is just to bundle the entire VM image 01:53:48 because you can't do it any other way 01:55:33 now, to solve this problem, you need to do two things: a) allow the language to be entirely written in itself, going back forever (solves the portability problem), and b) allow the VM state to be recreated from scratch by running a sequence of instructions (basically, libraries, followed by the program) 01:56:01 oh this is a good time to ask that thing i asked before. are there any systems for code interoperability that work well (or at least tolerably) besides ELF with SOs and p.e. DLLs? 01:56:15 I don't think a) is solvable, while remaining computable, but you can fake it using retroactive changes 01:56:29 the main reason behind retroactive changes, though, was to get around the need to have separate classes and objects 01:56:40 in Smalltalk, you can alter a class in order to change all objects spawned from it 01:57:06 Self has no distinct classes, so...? 01:57:17 in Feather, you create objects by cloning+modification, and if you retroactively change the parent object, that changes all its decendants, so it comes to the same thing 01:57:27 Bike: Java and class files? 01:57:45 or I guess I should say, JVM and class files 01:57:46 oh, maybe. i don't know much about that 01:57:52 since you can compile almost anything to JVM bytecode 01:57:54 i'm sort of wondering if there's any theory or anything 01:58:14 you know, I should put this monologue on the wiki 01:58:24 it's a good way to explain that a) Feather is real, and b) give a glimpse of the consequences 01:58:41 since i usually code in CL and it's largely the same situation as ais was complaining about (besides distributing source) 01:58:58 I'm guessing .NET CLR is similar 01:59:08 ais523: why do you have a "thing" about talking about feather anyway, it seems a lot more interesting than "lol, time travel" 01:59:17 Bike: it is 01:59:21 Someone in another channel is talking about fixing Smalltalk with time travel. 01:59:22 in fact, VPRI is already working on that google: VPRI worlds 01:59:23 my problem's that it drives me mad 01:59:25 @wikipedia Common Language Infrastructure 01:59:25 Unknown command, try @list 01:59:30 oh, there isn't a wiki one :< 01:59:32 i know what CLI is 01:59:34 like, it feels like it /should/ work 01:59:40 just I can't make it do so 01:59:48 ais523: isn't that common for ideas 02:00:41 Bike: not really, I haven't come across anything quite this bad 02:00:48 sucks 02:00:49 my record for things like that is around 2-3 weeks, and that was part of my job 02:00:52 Feather, it was months at least 02:01:10 Fiora: i guess i was wondering about questions like, how do you distribute a module as an object when you have to worry about garbage collection? can you just link something libc-ish? stuff like that 02:01:30 isn't that the runtime's job? 02:01:45 well what is "the runtime" 02:01:55 libc? 02:02:18 C doesn't really have one? 02:02:19 but like, java does 02:02:37 -!- augur has joined. 02:02:45 that's the sort of question i'm wondering about i guess 02:02:52 and i'm not sure you can say "C has one" or "Java has one" even 02:02:59 the runtime system is more like the OS as a whole in C's case 02:03:04 Whether C "has a runtime" depends on what you compile it to. 02:03:15 yeah 02:03:51 and you could say the same for java-the-language, probably 02:03:58 Surely. 02:03:59 "'C' is a recursive acronym. It stands for 'C'." 02:04:02 Bike: yeah, gcj exists 02:04:10 admittedly, it mostly exists to be a counterexample 02:04:11 that's java to native? 02:04:21 That doesn't mean it doesn't have a runtime. 02:04:32 GHC certainly does. 02:04:37 It does? 02:04:38 Bike: yes 02:04:51 I don't know much about GHC, I know it compiles to .o's though? 02:04:51 err, yes gcj is java to native 02:05:13 normally I disambiguate with the nickping, but it doesn't work in this context 02:05:28 i understood anyway 02:05:49 Bike: GHC typically compiles Haskell to x86 machine code in .o files, yes. 02:05:58 So what's the runtime? 02:06:05 These are then linked to the GHC RTS, which is a 50,000 line C and C-- library. 02:06:06 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 02:06:13 It does garbage collection and such. 02:06:18 -!- Frooxius has joined. 02:06:18 (There's a lot of "such".) 02:06:27 mm, so like libc so then libhaskell, i suppose 02:06:38 * ais523 wonders about the existence of job posts requiring "C/C-- experience" 02:06:44 Sort of. 02:06:58 Please, elaborate on "sort of", don't let me continue in delusion 02:07:16 I think maybe these are meaningless discussions now. 02:07:29 No GHC-generated code will function without the runtime. 02:07:57 whereas C code can function without libc 02:08:02 it's more like libgcc, I guess 02:08:10 or crt0 02:08:22 (just a lot larger than either of those, which are intentionally small for obvious reasons) 02:08:56 I would probably say that GCC C has an RTS too, though it does less than GHC's RTS. 02:09:03 (libgcc is used to implement language features that the target doesn't have, such as multiplication on platforms where multiplication doesn't exist; crt0 is used to set up the runtime) 02:09:03 But I think it's a bit of a meaningless discussion. 02:09:20 normally, when you do printf or the like, you're calling out to libc 02:09:20 yes, a primitive-looking thing like + in GCC can compile to a function call into crt0.a 02:09:24 but in theory, you could write your own 02:09:29 oh yes ais523 just said that 02:09:42 kmc: libgcc's been split from crt0 at least since I worked on gcc-bf 02:09:53 "runtime library" is different from "virtual machine" although it might be hard to draw a perfectly sharp line as well 02:09:55 kmc: How did your libc-free network server go? 02:09:58 shachaf: it works 02:10:06 hah, osdev as a twenty-line crt0 implementation 02:10:10 I seem to remember it had some big secret associated with it or something. 02:10:16 no 02:10:21 No? 02:10:22 things I discovered doing that: libgcc does not like being called recursively in order to emulate a 64-bit multiply in terms of 32-bit multiplies in terms of 16-bit multiplies in terms of 8-bit multiplies 02:10:22 OK. 02:10:49 other things I discovered doing that: yes, you /can/ run a Perl script halfway through compiling gcc in order to alter its generated Makefiles 02:10:50 uh. 02:11:16 the state of a GHC-compiled program can be understood as a state of a virtual machine (STG machine) but the code running is ahead-of-time native-compiled code 02:11:35 some of the operations on that virtual machine are implemented as inline compiled code, others are calls into the runtime library 02:12:09 Do you know what "spineless" means, by the way? 02:12:11 Maybe I asked that before. 02:12:13 shachaf: not precisely 02:12:14 gcc-bf's build system is amazing, in the elliott sense of amazing 02:12:34 C++ is a better example of a typically native-compiled language with typically a big runtime library 02:12:48 Or Objective C, maybe. 02:12:54 http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2013/n3514.pdf hasthe best title 02:12:57 Objective C is kind of bizarre. 02:13:07 remember that 'new' is a keyword in C++; whatever allocator that invokes has a more special status than the ordinary library function malloc() 02:13:24 maybe that's a bad example because ::operator new is an ordinary function, albeit a strangly named one 02:13:59 -!- saijanai_ has joined. 02:14:02 btw, is it theoretically possible to implement malloc in terms of new? 02:14:18 my guess is that it'll come down to a technicality either way 02:14:36 hey all someone was talking about implementing time travel in smalltalk? 02:14:41 saijanai_, there are logs, that would probably be better than asking ais523 to repeat his monologue 02:14:50 oh. that's why. 02:14:53 And it's not an implementation in Smalltalk, it would be a different language. 02:14:55 err, oh dear 02:15:06 sorry ais. 02:15:26 saijanai_: it's probably for the best to avoid the subject 02:15:40 My fault 02:15:43 I was working on something that vaguely resembled that but not really a while ago 02:15:49 and have since mostly abandoned it 02:16:18 but I added an explanation to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather in order to have something to link people to 02:16:23 ah, ais523 have you ever heard of VPRI and worlds? 02:16:27 no 02:16:42 http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011001_final_worlds.pdf 02:17:09 it probably wouldn't be particularly appropriate to what I'm doing 02:17:35 it was first created to allow Ometa to do some really powerful lookahead parsing, and then reconcevied a universal kind of undo with extras 02:17:53 that doesn't seem quite as far-reaching as what I was doing 02:17:56 also, it seems a lot saner 02:18:20 A programming language that supports worlds must provide some way for program- mers to: 02:18:21 – refer to the current world, – sprout a new world from an existing world, – commit a world’s changes to its parent world, and – execute code in a particular world. 02:18:37 yeah, it actually seems like more or less the opposite of what I'm doing 02:18:47 the hard problem is to be able to make a change to the parent and cause that to change what happened in the children 02:19:09 which is a problem that's already been solved (continuations), so it wouldn't seem like this would be so difficult 02:19:10 turns out, it is 02:19:20 well, that's inherent in the committing changes to the parent 02:19:52 if you don't want children to change, you'd need to clone the parent and change that instead, if I understand things 02:20:38 I don't think you really understand the problem; but that's good, because not only does /nobody/ really understand the problem, it's also not a particularly fruitful one to work on 02:20:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:20:55 welcome to #esoteric? 02:21:03 `welcome saijanai_ 02:21:05 saijanai_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:21:33 the international hub for clojure and esoteric programming language design and deployment! 02:22:06 clojure/factor/racket/smalltalk(?????????????????????) 02:22:08 you know, we actually are talking about an esolang partly inspired by deployment issues 02:23:21 ais523 there's actually a multii-player virtual reality game that implements time travel. I can look up the name if youi want 02:23:42 i don't think time travel is really the core issue 02:24:01 My fault for saying the words time travel 02:24:46 * Sgeo is curious about that game... unless it's that RTS one that changes come in waves or something 02:24:49 http://www.achrongame.com/site/   02:25:13 you don't like achron, sgeo? 02:25:37 It costs money. And also it's not the model of time travel that _really_ holds my interest 02:26:03 (immutable single timeline) 02:26:23 sgeo are you familiar with croquet/openqwak or cobalt 02:26:25 ? 02:26:34 aren't those super dead? 02:26:45 saijanai_, I've had some interest, but haven't really played around 02:26:47 hopefully not 02:27:02 in suspension for a while 02:27:14 Does OpenQwak or OpenCobalt have some sort of entry world to hang out with others? 02:27:19 That would be nice 02:27:21 but there's stuff you can do with teatime you still can't do with any other system? 02:27:22 http://www.opencroquet.org/ yeeeeeaaaaaah 02:27:38 And a sandbox where multiple people can build stuff and script stuff together 02:27:42 teatime? 02:27:52 saijanai_: I'm aware of Achron 02:27:58 Bike, I think OpenCroquet is the foundation on which OpenCobalt is built 02:28:06 David Reed's first stab at distributed p2p serving 02:28:06 its time travel model is quite different from Feather's, and somewhat arbitrary in order to make the gameplay work 02:28:25 aren't there a few papers on achron? 02:28:44 i read at some point a bit about how the main guy wanted to use the time travel stuff for reversible computing and well anything more practical than an RTS 02:29:02 Bike, that is where worlds would come in 02:29:37 worlds + teatime would be very interesting 02:30:03 also the list on page 7 is awesome 02:30:17 -!- ais523 has left (""""). 02:30:34 :( 02:30:41 coppro list? page 7? 02:31:04 qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq 02:31:12 r? 02:31:14 q 02:31:18 oh 02:31:32 http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2013/n3514.pdf 02:35:16 qqqqqqq: qqqqq qq? 02:35:29 yes 02:35:56 :∩) 02:36:19 yes 02:37:27 yes 02:38:19 :≟) 02:38:26 no 02:38:28 no? 02:38:31 yes 02:38:37 :⊡) 02:39:19 yes 02:39:42 :⏎) 02:41:02 ?- exists(shachaf). 02:41:02 Maybe you meant: . ? @ v 02:43:15 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:55:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:55:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:59:04 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:00:20 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:00:26 -!- DH____ has joined. 03:12:37 Is Morphic supposed to be "easy"? 03:12:53 morphic? 03:14:13 Sgeo: are you trying to knock shachaf off the wagon? 03:21:28 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:25:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:32:44 * Sgeo gets a little spooked out by the method finder thingy 03:33:15 is it spooky 03:34:21 am i spooky 03:34:33 Typing 'eureka' . 'EUREKA' into it finds methods that do that 03:34:43 It found asUppercase 03:35:52 What if you search for 1+0 records in 1+0 records out 512 bytes (512 B) copied, 3.1335e-05 s, 16.3 MB/s 03:36:22 Hmm, I don't know if it only works when the first argument is the receiver of the method or not 03:36:27 -!- sivoais has joined. 03:36:46 But even then, how could it know to avoid certain side-effecting methods? 03:37:37 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:37:57 Oh, there's a list of allowed methods 03:37:58 o.O 03:39:21 -!- Bike has joined. 03:41:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:43:12 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:43:45 wb 04:04:57 -!- infnikiller64 has joined. 04:04:59 hi 04:05:49 -!- infnikiller64 has quit (Client Quit). 04:07:47 hi 04:42:45 -!- hogeyui has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:46:03 -!- hogeyui has joined. 04:51:31 -!- ogrom has joined. 05:23:11 -!- odul has joined. 05:24:14 -!- odul has left ("wIRC"). 05:24:21 monqy: was that a hi of response, or a hi of disapproval? 05:24:23 either works in context 05:28:53 i forget 05:29:11 both??? who knows 05:30:28 monqy: was it all three 05:31:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:32:02 Possibly also none of the above. 05:45:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:59:09 -!- augur has joined. 06:10:16 `list 06:10:17 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot 06:20:22 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:32:43 -!- Deewiant has joined. 07:13:17 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:38:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:41:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:17:32 `addquote in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O Sgeo: yeah exactly where does the GUI come from? it's written in Smalltalk, clearly and how does the GUI do its I/O? if you think about the issue for too long, you end up inventing Feather 08:17:39 923) in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O Sgeo: yeah exactly where does the GUI come from? it's written in Smalltalk, clearly and how does the GUI do its I/O? if you think ab 08:17:48 oerjan: it got cut off 08:18:02 `run quote 923 | rev 08:18:03 rehtaeF gnitnevni pu dne uoy ,gnol oot rof eussi eht tuoba kniht uoy fi >325sia< ?O/I sti od IUG eht seod woh dna >325sia< ylraelc ,klatllamS ni nettirw s'ti >325sia< ?morf emoc IUG eht seod erehw >325sia< yltcaxe haey :oegS >325sia< O/I fo mrof a si IUG ...O/I fo elbapac etiuq smees ti ,325sia >oegS< esrevinu eht etaerc tsrif tsum uoy ,O/I o 08:18:24 only on output. didn't we already ask Gregor to fix that. 08:18:51 and even pinpoint the exact point in the code to change 08:19:20 (where it says "350") 08:19:56 -!- ais523 has quit. 08:22:33 `addquote you can define Feather as "Smalltalk done right" if you want to confuse people into wondering why that would involve time travel stuff and all that 08:22:36 924) you can define Feather as "Smalltalk done right" if you want to confuse people into wondering why that would involve time travel stuff and all that 08:25:25 Tuoba kniht uoy fi. 08:28:46 clearly that must be estonian. 08:29:53 The esoteric order of the knights of tuba. 08:30:00 helloerjan 08:30:19 enjoying "the logs??" 08:30:35 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:31:11 MAYBE 08:52:53 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:54:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:16:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:23:33 -!- monqy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:36:28 -!- sivoais_ has joined. 10:03:18 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:06:24 `pastelogs fueue.* 10:06:27 ff 10:06:39 `pastelogs fueue.*eof 10:06:53 Fueueof. 10:07:00 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29434 10:07:07 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.424 10:07:35 Hey, the "fueueof" made it to the output. Funky. 10:09:29 those numbers are widely varying 10:09:33 does it just pick a random number? 10:09:42 or is there some pattern that's just not obvious from two examples? 10:10:26 -!- monqy has joined. 10:10:39 -!- FreeFull has joined. 10:11:11 yes it's random 10:11:40 it seems http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-08-29.txt has the fueue eof discussion 10:12:14 What you can do is have the compiler forcibly terminate the program on EOF no matter what 10:14:45 FreeFull: that disallows many programs from being written 10:15:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:15:16 e.g. reversing the input is impossible 10:15:58 ais523: It's bash $RANDOM. 10:16:41 `run ls paste | wc -l 10:16:42 506 10:16:48 so the fueue eof situation is a mess. the C interpreter returns some negative number (usually -1 but not portably), the ocaml interpreter just throws an uncatched exception, and Taneb has not linked to his own interpreter so i don't know what it does. 10:18:43 `run echo 5k $(ls paste | wc -l) 32768/100*n | dc 10:18:44 1.54400 10:18:55 It's already 1.5% full. 10:18:55 ok http://hpaste.org/73921 is probably from Taneb's so it also throws an exception. 10:19:12 (Not that bin/paste tries to avoid existing pastes or anything.) 10:19:42 and in any case i have no way of distinguishing -1 from 0 while also distinguishing different positive characters. 10:20:07 oerjan: You can just rule out files that ever end, aren't those pretty rare anyway? 10:20:18 * oerjan swats fizzie -----### 10:23:09 fizzie: this seems like a good way to do paste expiry, really 10:23:14 they expire after a random length of time 10:23:55 -!- monqy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:26:28 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood). 10:32:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:50:21 oerjan: hmm, I want to put that in an esolang spec, now 10:50:37 "reading past end of file does something random and poorly-defined, possibly crashing the program" 10:50:46 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 10:50:50 you evil man 10:51:26 me? evil? 10:51:39 Well, "ais523" backwards *is* "evil". 10:51:45 indeed. 10:51:58 btw, reading past EOF in INTERCAL causes an unrecoverable fatal error, and there's no way to determine where it is unless you read past it 10:52:12 this strikes me as not entirely optimal in terms of I/O capabilities 10:57:05 (the obvious fix to this problem, of course, is the CLC-INTERCAL method, whereby you can simultaneously read and not read from the file, and then simultaneously check and not check whether an error was thrown 10:57:23 (you need to hedge in the second case, because checking to see if there's been an error throws an error if there wasn't one, obviously) 10:57:26 ) 11:00:45 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:03:07 I SENSE THIS FIX HAS PROBLEMS 11:17:36 ais523: How about have it crash only half the time 11:30:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:32:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood). 11:36:09 -!- asiekierka has joined. 11:47:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:16:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:23:48 -!- oonbotti has joined. 12:31:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:52:44 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 13:31:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:32:06 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 13:32:11 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:43:59 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 13:48:15 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Page closed). 14:03:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:15:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:19:35 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:19:46 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 14:32:11 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 14:39:18 -!- boily has joined. 14:46:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 14:48:57 -!- boily has joined. 15:36:20 -!- Rajni has joined. 15:37:08 -!- Rajni has left. 15:48:54 only on output. didn't we already ask Gregor to fix that. // "fix" doesn't mean anything. I have to have SOME cutoff, and I don't know which is best. 15:55:51 Gregor: well you could just limit it to 512 and let the server cut it off 15:55:53 does that work? 15:56:39 I seem to recall setting a limit for a reason X-D 15:56:48 Though perhaps it's just that the server gets mad if you go waaaaaaaay over. 15:57:40 Gregor: also because otherwise infinite output will hang you 15:58:31 Naw, my reader has a limit of 1024 or something thereabouts. 16:11:27 1024 doesnt say waaaaaaaay over 16:15:05 IRC messages are always lines of characters terminated with a CR-LF 16:15:05 (Carriage Return - Line Feed) pair, and these messages SHALL NOT 16:15:05 exceed 512 characters in length, counting all characters including 16:15:05 the trailing CR-LF. Thus, there are 510 characters maximum allowed 16:15:05 for the command and its parameters. There is no provision for 16:15:07 continuation of message lines. 16:18:22 so 510 - strlen("PRIVMSG :") = 501 chars for the actual message, as defined by the rfc 16:21:24 -!- sivoais has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:22:53 -!- sivoais_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:23:48 -!- sivoais has joined. 16:24:44 `welcome sivoais 16:24:46 sivoais: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:26:44 "October 27, 2009: A South Korean pig farmer, who was wanted for assault, cut a hole in the DMZ fence and defected to North Korea.[16]" 16:27:11 Hard to imagine someone defecting to North Korea 16:27:12 wut 16:27:20 * Sgeo is reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone 16:29:13 "The Axe Murder Incident in August 1976 involved the attempted trimming of a poplar tree which resulted in two deaths (CPT Arthur Bonifas and 1LT Mark Barrett) and Operation Paul Bunyan." 17:14:38 -!- ogrom has joined. 17:23:28 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:24:39 .... 17:24:47 String>>translate doesn't actually do anything, wtf 17:25:02 It uses NaturalLanguageTranslator class>>translate: 17:25:08 And that just returns its argument 17:25:24 maybe not implemented yet, just a stub 17:25:36 "A NaturalLanguageTranslator is a dummy translator. 17:25:36 The localization framework is found in the gettext package." 17:25:50 So, is this gettext package supposed to modify String>>translate? 17:25:54 That's kind of creepy 17:38:10 -!- variable has joined. 18:00:17 -!- Bike has joined. 18:01:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:27:06 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:32:23 http://geekfeminism.org/2013/01/21/re-post-hiring-based-on-hobbies-effective-or-exclusive/ 18:33:32 amateur robotics impractical, heheh 18:34:19 "I’ve seen other people imply that there’s something even morally suspect about somebody working an engineering job just for the money... Of course, that’s classist. It’s easier to feel like you’re motivated by the sheer love of your work if you don’t really need the money." 18:36:21 -!- augur has joined. 18:40:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:40:38 -!- augur_ has joined. 18:45:28 kmc, i like how that's a re-run of an article from 2 months ago 18:48:06 it is 18:48:14 “Is requiring Open Source experience sexist?” 18:48:22 wut 18:48:24 i hadn't seen it 2 months ago because i was not subscribed yet 18:48:59 Do I count as having open-source experience for having pushed minor patches into stuff 18:49:05 (And one of those patches was broken) 18:49:08 c00kiemon5ter: you could read the article 18:49:56 Sgeo: for your resume? seriously just be as positive and reaching as you can 18:50:20 I'm done editing resume I think 18:50:21 Or well, at least for now 18:50:29 Maybe I'll try to tweak it more later on 18:51:19 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:52:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:54:37 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 18:55:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:59:32 c00kiemon5ter: let me guess, you're smart and educated, therefore the idea that your behavior might be unintentionally sexist is absurd 19:00:53 can we not do this please 19:01:02 probably 19:01:06 because i well end up annoyed with everyone involved, myself included 19:01:14 *will 19:01:59 I'm kind of bored so I'd actually like to keep going 19:02:07 will sit on kmc's side of the stadium and munch some popcorn 19:02:56 i feel like i should make some comparison like "[haskell thing that seems weird on the surface but isn't really]" nonhaskeller: "wut", but i can't think of anything. woe 19:03:09 Bike, Bike 19:03:11 you're trying too hard 19:03:19 :( 19:03:21 i'm a tryhard :( 19:03:25 aye 19:03:26 me too 19:03:46 * Bike sadly pedals off on his non-fixie 19:03:58 (can you picture a bike riding a bike) 19:04:07 thats hard 19:04:16 well i've seen lots of those double height hipster bikes 19:04:17 with some difficulty, yes 19:04:26 kmc: what 19:04:42 truly, hipster bike technology is lightyears ahead of ours 19:04:52 http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2602/3913184301_0346b553bd_z.jpg Uh. 19:05:01 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 19:05:04 Bike: except for gears or freewheeling :3 19:05:08 I don't... I don't really understand what this is 19:05:20 a super tall bike 19:05:26 probably made by welding together a few bike frames 19:05:28 http://bikehugger.com/images/blog/double_decker.jpg is this a joke 19:05:32 i see them around cambridge sometimes 19:05:45 Bike: that just makes me think of a penny farthing 19:05:46 it's exciting to see someone mount one, they have to hold onto a sign pole or something 19:05:48 what's it for? more cargo capacity? 19:05:49 elliott: same 19:06:06 they also come perilously close to the trolleybus wires 19:06:08 also who invented penny farthings 19:06:09 and why 19:06:21 at the food bank people with no cars sometimes have a lot of trouble loading their food on, maybe they could use double deckers 19:06:22 elliott: it was before gears 19:06:24 on bikes 19:06:29 Bike: i like how that latter one looks like a cube 19:06:31 the middle bit 19:06:40 whoa, it does 19:06:45 optical bike 19:06:48 elliott: so the driving wheel needed to be really huge 19:06:49 tesseract bike please 19:06:58 kmc: ok but they look so stupid 19:07:00 yes 19:07:05 an actual cube bike 19:07:08 you know what else looks stupid? everything from that era 19:07:13 apparently penny farthings were also called "man slicers" 19:07:13 wheels on two adjacent corners 19:07:24 i feel like this should be an obscure but amusing gay slang, nowadays 19:07:33 what about this guy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Harvey_Cable_Car.jpg 19:07:38 Bike: haha 19:08:02 i like the people on the ground 19:08:05 "is this dude serious" 19:08:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:08:24 yeah 19:08:27 they're probably his investors 19:08:34 might be making side bets on whether he dies, to hedge 19:08:58 this was the first rapid transit in manhattan 19:09:01 fsvo "rapid transit" 19:09:15 "above walking speed transit" 19:09:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Velocipede_Michaux-1.jpg apparently the bikes before penny farthings didn't look idiotic, elliott 19:09:40 other than having wooden wheels... 19:09:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michaux-Perreaux_steam_velocipede 19:09:58 yeah i don't even know what the fuck is with that 19:10:06 hmm, read that as a steam centipede 19:10:08 steampunk!!! 19:10:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Daimler_Reitwagen.JPG now this, this looks steampunk 19:10:34 the irony being it's an ICE not steam i guess 19:11:16 Bike: i like how it looks like it has a dead bird for a seat 19:11:21 kmc, no, I am very open to re-thinking and critisizing every thing I do and say, and every thing that presents itself as the "default" or "normal" or "right" or whatnot 19:11:31 oh christ, here we go 19:11:34 :D 19:11:44 hey, hey, don't be dissing a conversation before it starts 19:11:47 why are you both waiting 10 minutes between replies 19:11:53 (which btw is not a mechanical steam-driven centipede, but a deadly poisonous centipede that can also burn you with steam) 19:11:55 is what i should have said ten minutes ago but i was distracted by my brethern 19:11:58 bretheren 19:12:02 I was reading :P both those articles 19:12:04 Bike: the term is "bikes" 19:12:06 *poisonous steam 19:12:09 bikeren?? 19:12:11 Bike, well i suppose we have been having some vaguely intelligent debates these days 19:12:12 hm I could buy bretheren as an arcane plural for bik 19:12:13 e 19:12:21 pff 19:12:32 the idiot well has dried up, it seems 19:12:37 bicycleaux 19:12:45 the jerk store called, they're out of you 19:12:59 don't worry, i'm sure we can get people saying dumb things about something 19:13:03 what do you all think about engels 19:13:05 elliott, the plural of bike is bake 19:13:11 or is that the past tense 19:13:20 Bike: i liked communism before it was cool 19:13:24 no, a bake is a baby bike 19:13:42 the plural of "bike" is "bike", but you pronounce it "beekay" 19:13:43 i don't think they exist 19:13:56 the past The plural of surgeon general is surgeons general. The past tense of surgeons general is surgeonsed general. 19:14:01 whoopsie 19:14:05 "not drunk" 19:14:24 isn't it still america afternood 19:14:28 *n 19:14:33 "not in a freezing room" 19:14:39 man remember when quoting (the first) portal didn't drive all good people into an irritated rage 19:14:42 those were good times 19:14:44 haha 19:14:49 maybe it's back 19:15:17 i didn't really have the same thing happen with portal 2, other than watching the sphere compilation videos a few times. maybe... i've grown up........ 19:15:27 i hear the cake is a lie (i've never finished portal 1 :( ) 19:15:36 (my computer broke the day after I got like half-way through ti) 19:15:37 *it 19:16:00 what about the lesser-known portal references 19:16:03 are there any of those 19:16:14 you could quote the cake recipe 19:16:58 soo, I do not think that when you are hiring for engineering, giving extra credit/linking to someone that is interested and contributes to FOSS is a bad thing. I find it reasonable, as the way I see it, is sort of an extra in the candidate's experience. However, "removing points" because he has no such contribution or interest is silly. 19:17:26 back in high school a guy printed out the entire script of portal 1 and was reading it out during a field trip. it's possible i'm mentally scarred 19:17:37 c00kiemon5ter: i'm not sure that's logically consistent 19:17:48 what's the important difference between "adding points" and "not removing points" 19:17:54 I think adding points for X is equivalent to... right 19:18:12 no it's not 19:18:19 uh 19:18:21 wait right it is 19:18:22 hm, i should remember this the next time i'm foolish enough to get into an argument about affirmative action 19:18:27 Phantom_Hoover: good job 19:18:37 no it is not inconsistent 19:18:39 maybe im on the wrong degree course 19:18:55 Phantom_Hoover: should have gone with computer science : ) 19:19:01 you are hiring a software engineer and you ask him what his interests are 19:19:07 "him" 19:19:11 always "him" eh 19:19:15 .. 19:19:19 c00kiemon5ter, given the subject of discussion probably don't use gendered pronouns 19:19:30 I do not know what to use 19:19:34 "them" is fine 19:19:36 what is the right word in English 19:19:39 :) 19:19:40 singular they is what all the cool kids use, but anyway, not that important 19:19:57 "them", "him or her", or just "her" if you're really lazy and/or writing an RPG rules book :P 19:19:58 for the record I'm not saying we need to ignore OSS experience (nor am I saying I agree with everything in that article) 19:20:08 so, you are hiring a software engineer and you ask them what their interests are 19:20:17 just you need to be aware of the social context of who can and can't contribute to OSS. it's not a meritocracy. 19:20:39 so maybe we should rely on it a bit less 19:20:51 i think acting like you're not a good programmer unless you eat and breathe and shit programming 24/7 is stupid 19:20:54 use spivak so you can pretend you're playing agora nomic 19:20:59 not just stupid on social justice grounds, stupid in general 19:21:05 it makes our entire field look silly and immature 19:21:15 like we can't handle the idea of having a job, doing that job well, and then getting paid for that job 19:21:29 elliott: do they actually use spivak? I didn't think anyone actually did besides some MOOs... wait. 19:21:29 kmc, i think this is similar to the brogrammer thing 19:21:38 of course certain companies like Google want to perpetuate this state of affairs because it lets them maintain a tighter grip on their employees and their all-consuming infatuation with The Company 19:21:39 Bike: yes 19:21:53 Bike: in fact agora is a descendent of nomicworld which was played on a mud 19:21:55 programming just hasn't developed consistent standards of professionalism 19:21:58 elliott: fucking knew it 19:22:00 perhaps that is why it uses spivak though I hear it used singular they originally 19:22:26 kmc: I feel like it's one thing to contribute to open source, another to /get your patches accepted/, yet another to be someone major 19:22:30 don't use spivak 19:22:35 kmc: now i want to find something comparing google to 19th century company towns `-` 19:22:36 it makes you sound like you're a cockney 19:22:51 kmc, right, I agree on that 19:22:55 the former is easy enough, the middle might depend on things totally out of your control, the latter requires a huge dedication and destruction of free time 19:23:03 Phantom_Hoover: which kind 19:23:27 the... one which makes you sound like a cockney 19:23:31 so like "here's my github, here's 20 hours of open source work I did" isn't too unreasonable I guess? 19:23:47 for 'e's a jolly good fellow, etc. 19:24:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun 19:24:17 i love how happy all those examples are 19:25:11 Phantom_Hoover: no standard of professionalism, and quite a few people who see the idea of professionalism or human decency as some kind of terrible oppression 19:26:15 Phantom_Hoover: the one I've heard a little bit at least is 'ze', 'hir', etc 19:26:29 which seems to be reasonably common among the genderqueer crowd 19:27:07 startup culture is a backlash against big company bureacracy, the way that nerd culture is a backlash against people who picked on us in middle school 19:27:36 and so much as nerds are compelled to dislike sports, startup hackers are compelled to dislike professionalism, 'policy' of any form, etc. 19:27:44 Fiora, essentially the same problem; 'hir' just scans as 'her' for me. 19:28:34 huh. I never noticed that but I guess it might make sense given the whole "Brains ignore the middle letters" thing 19:28:42 No, it's phonetic. 19:28:54 hqr 19:28:58 q pronounced as q 19:29:15 "hir" is pronounced as "heer" I think 19:29:27 we don't ignore the middle letters, they have to be the same but the order doesn't matter, if you're thinking of that old "cambridge" chain mail 19:29:34 oh 19:29:47 I guess it's supposed to be a cross between "his" and "her" 19:30:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:30:26 don't trust chain mail. it won't protect you from halberds 19:30:31 I guess that might make sense, but 'hihr' is pretty awkward to pronounce. 19:30:34 i mostly just use singular they because most people understand it without explanation, and dealing with prescriptivists will happen whenever 19:30:34 literally looked up what chain mail was bad against on wikipedia for that 19:30:38 you fuckers 19:30:41 i do so much for you 19:30:41 Fog Creek Software is unusually explicit about the fact that their corporate culture is "the opposite of Microsoft in 1994" 19:30:47 i admire your commitment to that dumb joke, elliott 19:30:59 Bike: just as i admire your commitment to being dumb all the time!! 19:31:00 elliott: get thee to a ren faire 19:31:01 kmc: hypothesis: all these people have read too much Dilbert 19:31:05 elliott: :( :( :( 19:31:06 Bike: haha yes 19:31:15 i loved Dilbert when I was like 10 years old 19:31:31 now it seems really dumb 19:31:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8AUPSfgk18 etc 19:31:59 of course nobody doubts that horrible big company jobs exist, much as nobody doubts that nerds get picked on in middle school 19:32:16 the question is, once you escape that, are you going to build a backlash or are you going to build something thoughtful and positive 19:34:19 i think i'd like to sit around complaining on irc like kmc OH BURNNN 19:34:21 j/k i like you 19:34:26 but i have this quota see.. 19:34:41 yup 19:34:52 kmc understands 19:35:03 well i'm not at work so suck it 19:36:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:47:43 Bike: wow that video is... what 19:48:00 what is it 19:48:01 oh 19:48:06 dilbert 2 19:48:30 kmc: have you then also not seen dilbert 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEgtYOJ_qeM 19:48:33 (nsfw in all kinds of ways) 19:48:58 i guess i had better see it 19:49:18 oh that's some reupload. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7bwbl6UHU8 19:49:24 high quality dilbert 3 direct download today 19:52:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:52:38 is it real and fast? 19:55:41 cboyardee is one of the guys behind https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/284/786/d315644299e4c76a2cf3d282b9aa444f_large.gif?1354207645, so 19:55:42 -!- copumpkin has quit. 19:56:43 kmc: no it's fake 19:56:45 100% authentic fake 19:56:59 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:57:26 also apparently the dilbert series was turned in as an actual art project at an actual school 19:57:45 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20130120.gif 20:00:04 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 20:01:43 When you link them like that the bonus image is missing. 20:02:25 bonus imgae? 20:02:27 *image 20:02:33 yeah but biology hates math jokes are dumb 20:02:36 Fiora: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20130120after.gif 20:02:43 .... wow. I only just -- wow I've totally missed those all this time 20:02:50 yeah i had the same reaction 20:03:14 i think you're supposed to be donating to get them or something 20:03:44 Err, that doesn’t have anything to do with donations. 20:03:48 ion, ads. 20:03:58 it doesn't appear on the rss feed for that reason 20:04:10 well i don't know how to get to the bonus images without manually changing the url, so 20:04:18 bike: Hover on the red button. 20:04:52 ion: whoa. 20:06:46 Fiora, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/669.html 20:06:50 did you know xkcd has title text (this one doesn't work because who reads xkcd any more :/) 20:07:05 does goatkcd have title text 20:07:24 also why can't i find any irregular webcomic strip funny? am i ill? 20:07:36 Phantom_Hoover: oh gosh 20:07:42 you do not read iwc for the funny 20:07:45 you read it for the dmm 20:07:52 iwc is funny but it's not in the you're actually laughing way 20:08:22 it's more like spending time with someone who is a funny person except instead of spending time with them you're reading their webcomic on the internet and are actually sad and alone 20:08:38 based on a true story 20:08:40 oh 20:09:02 have i mentioned that my initials are the same as dmm's 20:09:05 i kept it a secret 20:09:06 for so long 20:09:21 every time he was mentioned i yearned to reveal this interesting fact about myself 20:09:26 but i had to maintain the facade 20:09:30 Phantom_Hoover, dmm? Is that the same as reading it for the educational value? 20:09:32 Phantom_Hoover: what is your middle name 20:09:36 what the fuck is dmm 20:09:44 david morgan-mar...... 20:09:58 Sgeo, no 20:10:06 it's everything 20:10:12 (he made irregular webcomic (and a bunch of esolangs)) 20:10:20 also um 20:10:24 mezzacotta and stuff 20:11:07 o.O 20:11:10 What esolangs? 20:11:15 oh right he made ook 20:11:17 and piet I think? 20:11:25 "a good brainfuck derivative" 20:11:35 bit chef haifu 20:11:36 hq9++ 20:11:38 petrovich 20:11:40 whenever 20:11:41 zombie 20:11:47 this list quoted from that shitty wiki 20:11:53 + the ones Bike mentionde 20:12:57 Sgeo 20:12:59 did you 20:13:00 not know 20:13:01 that dmm 20:13:04 made esolangs 20:13:14 Indeed, I did not know that. 20:13:14 why are we talking like that 20:13:22 to express astonishment 20:13:49 Have you watched Puella Magi Madoka Magica? 20:13:52 If not. 20:13:53 why. 20:13:54 haven't 20:13:54 you 20:14:45 the point is not that you haven't read iwc 20:15:12 the point is that you knew of dmm but didn't realise he also did esolangs 20:15:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:15:28 Vaguely 20:15:36 Maybe "knew of" is a bit too extreme 20:15:45 Wait, is he the dangermouse person? 20:15:46 did you know puell magi madoka magica also did esolangs 20:16:08 why the fuck is there latin in that name 20:16:22 is it roman anime or something 20:16:23 Someone said the same people who made GHC to write the report? I thought GHC is made by the Glasgow university, and the report is made by the Microsoft research department. 20:16:30 "puella magi" is how they translated "mahou shoujo" 20:16:41 Phantom_Hoover: have yo useen the bathhouse anime 20:16:48 they were trying to keep the rather, erm. dark pun present in the original 20:16:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:16:53 good anime imo 20:17:04 Fiora, by... translating it into Latin. 20:17:16 it's not quite a translation 20:17:35 but hey, it's a retelling of faust, so close enough, right? 20:17:45 `quote welsh 20:17:46 What's the pun? 20:17:46 821) !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words 20:17:55 *PFFFF* 20:18:31 Syhggreful is my kind of name 20:18:32 ha ha, the welsh 20:18:36 (just wanted to check what some of the pony names were) 20:20:09 Phantom_Hoover: mega spoilers in Japanese, "mahou shoujo" kanji-puns to be similar to the word for "witch", which is what all magical girls are doomed to become. "puella magi" iirc has the same effect, while "magical girl" doesn't 20:20:15 They're all called magical-girls in-story in the translation though. 20:20:45 uh 20:20:51 OK 20:21:17 at least that's what I think it is. I don't really know much about the translation, I only watched the fansubs 20:21:30 well, and the blu-ray I suppose <.< 20:21:31 are you sure this translator was entirely aware of how puns work 20:22:02 I suppose it's less puns and more of urobochi's love for foreshadowing 20:22:33 i thought "mahou shoujo" was just the usual term for magical girls 20:22:40 since they're all a ripoff of Bewitched or something 20:22:55 Yeah, "mahou shoujo" is the standard term 20:23:03 dating back 30-40+ years 20:23:22 You know you've really broken your compiler when: hashTable.ts(151,12): public function return type has or is using private type 'bool' 20:24:09 Gregor: nice 20:24:23 oh, um, Bike, I saw this challenge thing someone posted on ##c and decided to do it 20:24:28 http://pastebin.com/jrS5ntrQ 20:25:08 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:25:18 does that include the sign bit 20:25:25 @tell ais523 you made [[Feather]] less funny, is there anything we can do about that? 20:25:25 Consider it noted. 20:26:00 I think it includes the sign bit 20:26:25 17-24 is my attempt at an implementation to test against 20:26:30 (the problem didn't have it) 20:26:57 doing it in less than half the required ops was satisfying though 20:27:49 -!- md_5 has joined. 20:27:58 your version is like three times as long 20:28:09 howManyBits isn't a valid solution though >.> 20:28:14 you have to do it without loops, ifs, etc 20:28:22 no loop, though 20:28:23 yeah 20:28:29 I just wrote it to test against 20:28:47 but does it generalize to ints of any length?? 20:28:57 I don't think that's possible in C XD 20:28:57 Fiora: btw the logs don't show colours so you may want to stick to rot13 if you consider logreaders people (but who would) 20:29:14 um.... ? 20:29:21 for your spoilers 20:29:23 oh. 20:29:37 sorry. used to using the ctrl-c color thing 20:29:38 just think of pooerjan, he'll never be able to watch pool meduka 20:29:46 everyone has already seen madoka magica though 20:30:19 (actually they haven't and I was really shocked when a couple people I know not only hadn't seen it, but somehow had completely avoided spoilers even though all their friends were fans, I don't even know how that's actually possible) 20:30:36 heavy use of rot13 i bet 20:31:02 also, i'm thinking "poørjan" would be better. 20:31:10 pøørjan 20:35:08 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:37:49 -!- md_5 has joined. 20:38:35 huh,I googled the problem and the original disallows constants outside of the range of 0-0xff 20:38:42 that only took 5 ops to work aruond <.< 20:38:51 int neg1 = ~0; and everything magics 20:39:02 zzo38: the main GHC developers have been at MSR for a while 20:40:06 kmc: rip simon marlow :( 20:40:11 how closely are operators like ~ defined? is ~0 definitely going to be int_min 20:40:24 -!- augur has joined. 20:40:30 that would assume a 2s complement representation yeah? 20:40:35 C doesn't assume that 20:40:35 yeah 20:40:41 int32_t is required to be 2s complement accordnig to language lawyers in ##c 20:40:48 oh really 20:40:55 and the problem specifies that you can assume 2s complement 32-bit int 20:40:58 psh, what are the people on signed magnitude machines going to do! 20:40:58 kmc: OK, but why are they called Glasgow then, if they are really Microsoft Research? 20:41:05 does it still have undefined overflow 20:41:08 int32_t is basically like. if the define exists you can assume it acts like you expect 20:41:12 I'm not sure @_@ 20:41:15 because "microsoft research haskell compiler" would scare everyone off 20:41:16 zzo38: because the project originated there 20+ years ago 20:41:17 GMSHC doesn't have the same ring to it 20:41:32 kmc: OK. 20:41:39 and they did not want to rename it 20:41:44 scares me less than anything with glasgow in the name 20:42:09 glasgow hugs compiler 20:42:11 i'd buy it 20:42:27 I thought it was officially the "Glorious" Haskell Compiler now. 20:42:47 just make it a recursive acronym and be done with it 20:42:50 Gregor: it's the Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System 20:42:57 pff 20:43:05 $ ghc --version 20:43:05 The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.6.1 20:43:10 lul 20:43:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:43:40 everyone has already seen madoka magica though <-- i think the first time i became aware of that name was some time last week when the newspaper had a feature on cosplayers. 20:44:34 -!- monqy has joined. 20:44:39 Hideous Hexham Haskell 20:45:39 monqy: have you thought about how many times you have to say bye before you've matched all your "hi"s? 20:45:46 how closely are operators like ~ defined? is ~0 definitely going to be int_min <-- um it's usually -1 isn't it. 20:45:47 "newspaper feature on cosplayers" oh dears 20:46:02 olsner: no...... 20:46:52 monqy: consider it the next time you say hi 20:46:52 oerjan: ok turns out i'm bad at math 20:48:15 shocking 20:48:36 Gregor: are you in the brony documentary? 20:48:47 Why would I be? 20:48:57 `addquote Gregor: are you in the brony documentary 20:48:59 ooops 20:49:00 925) Gregor: are you in the brony documentary 20:49:01 `addquote Gregor: are you in the brony documentary? 20:49:04 926) Gregor: are you in the brony documentary? 20:49:05 `delquote 925 20:49:09 ​*poof* Gregor: are you in the brony documentary 20:49:17 Gregor: it has people with hats in it 20:49:31 what sort of hats are we talking here 20:49:32 OH OF COURSE X-D 20:49:37 olsner: I'm nopony. 20:50:01 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:50:32 nah, but I thought you were a brony for some reason 20:50:35 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:51:14 Gregor is brony. i have seen proof. 20:51:26 I'm not denying that. 20:51:42 But that doesn't make me worth being in the documentary, I'm nobody. 20:51:50 -!- md_5 has joined. 20:51:52 -!- Snowyowl has joined. 20:52:03 I don't think they meticulously combed the entire fanbase. 20:52:13 bronies are so weird that Gregor doesn't even stand out 20:52:14 how careless of them 20:52:23 there should be a documentary on brony bfjousters imo 20:52:28 lul 20:52:38 bfjousters? 20:52:45 brousters? 20:52:52 punky brouster? 20:52:58 i don't know how to link to wiki pages, just look up "bfjoust", Snowyowl 20:53:00 if this is some sort of My Little Pony / Brainfuck crossover, I want in 20:53:08 !bfjoust horrible [>+] 20:53:08 let's say... yes 20:53:16 yeah that's a definite yes 20:53:20 ​Score for oerjan_horrible: 0.0 20:53:23 oerjan: Even by horrible standards, that's pretty horrible. 20:53:34 !bfjoust horribler < 20:53:35 A brainfuck pony would be madness] 20:53:37 ​Score for myndzi_horribler: 0.0 20:53:52 myndzi: i was trying to be more creatively horrible than that 20:53:58 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt 20:54:01 hehe :PY 20:54:02 well that horrible one isn't so bad is it 20:54:05 well i guess it is 20:54:08 !bfjoust horriblest (-)*120[-] 20:54:09 dat hill 20:54:09 but it could theoretically win i think 20:54:11 ​Score for Gregor_horriblest: 8.4 20:54:11 50 of em? 20:54:13 lul 20:54:18 fair enough 20:54:59 muahahah slowrush still surviving, but that's probably only because the hill is too big 20:55:00 :P 20:55:11 doesn't do too well these days though 20:55:39 Poor FFSPG is all the way down at #12 :( 20:55:52 I remember when it was king of the hill. 20:56:16 i confess i never believed the game would get this far 20:56:41 though in part that was due to the interpreter limits 20:56:55 and i didn't think anyone would actually take the time to write huge like xbox programs 20:57:25 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:01:22 that looks like a hell of a game 21:01:54 -!- augur has joined. 21:02:58 Ohhey 21:03:00 `welcome Snowyowl 21:03:02 Snowyowl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:03:03 `welcome md_5 21:03:04 md_5: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:03:18 more like `goodbye md_5 21:03:18 :P 21:04:12 question to any bfjoust gurus in here: what happens if the bf program terminates? 21:04:23 it just sits there 21:04:28 does the bot just stop doing anything for the rest of the game? 21:04:38 !bfjoust lol . 21:04:41 ​Score for myndzi_lol: 4.6 21:04:43 i don't even remember if . is valid 21:04:49 haha. 21:04:59 4.6? Is that out of 10 or 100? 21:05:09 it's based on some algorithm i don't remember 21:05:12 it means it won a couple games 21:05:21 probably programs that skip the first decoy 21:05:29 so it did nothing and still beat someone 21:05:31 which means they skipped over the flag and ran off the end 21:05:34 The maximum is 100, though. 21:05:36 O_o 21:05:51 i actually am happy that i got to contribute to the development of this game :) 21:05:55 i always felt like i missed out on corewars 21:06:08 "Points" is just raw duel points from -84 to 84, but "score" is more complicated: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES 21:06:25 4.6 is really low anyway 21:06:30 look at the hill 21:06:48 top score tends to approach 60 21:07:15 the bottom one still on the hill is 16.95 21:07:19 not including the last one submitted 21:07:47 i don't even want to bother figuring out what the top programs are doing anymore 21:07:48 lol 21:08:04 Some of them have descriptions. 21:08:15 yeah, i just looked up the strategy page on the wiki 21:10:12 wtf internet why do i keep getting disconnected 21:10:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:10:46 it's the same bounce on the other networks 21:16:35 !bfjoust preconceived_notions (>)*10[-][-.] 21:16:38 ​Score for Snowyowl_preconceived_notions: 4.9 21:16:56 woo, 0.3 better than doing nothing 21:17:12 hehe 21:17:20 i miss the beginnings when the warriors were simple :( 21:17:28 `addquote back in high school a guy printed out the entire script of portal 1 and was reading it out during a field trip. it's possible i'm mentally scarred 21:17:31 926) back in high school a guy printed out the entire script of portal 1 and was reading it out during a field trip. it's possible i'm mentally scarred 21:17:40 Bike, oh christ 21:17:44 what sort of person was he 21:17:54 btw whoever designed the visualization for the javascript interpreter did an excellent job 21:17:56 kind of person who would do quote 926 21:17:59 gregor 21:18:08 oerjan are you that guy i know??? 21:18:10 there's a javascript interpreter? 21:18:29 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ 21:18:33 and debugger :o 21:18:54 Bike: doubtful, do you know many norwegians who haven't been outside the country for a decade? 21:19:07 hmmmmm no 21:19:14 What is the purpose of bfjoust? 21:19:18 game 21:19:49 How do you play it 21:19:59 it came out of agora nomic. your question is thus meaningless. 21:20:04 purpose is to capture the flag 21:20:04 :P 21:20:10 rather 21:20:18 it's basically like Team Fortress 2 21:20:19 you want the opponent's flag position to equal 0 for a full cycle 21:20:37 each cell is a byte value initialized to 0; flags initialize to 128 21:21:00 the tape length used to be random, but now results are calculated for every tape length 21:21:03 !bfjoust cheesegrater [+[-]+] 21:21:08 ​Score for FreeFull_cheesegrater: 9.1 21:21:09 10-30 or something? i forget 21:21:11 !bfjoust cheesegrater +[+[-]+] 21:21:15 ​Score for FreeFull_cheesegrater: 8.3 21:21:21 Dammit 21:21:28 Changing it decreased my score =P 21:21:39 it actually runs twice for every tape length 21:21:43 once as written for both programs 21:21:48 and one with + and - swapped for one program 21:21:49 Bike: BF Joust is a hat simulator? 21:21:59 !bfjoust prehistoric_notions (>)*10([-]>]*-1 21:22:02 ​Score for oerjan_prehistoric_notions: 0.0 21:22:03 this is to eliminate the necessity/possibility of biasing programs with + or - 21:22:12 failto) 21:22:24 i like my program that wins every single time as long as the tape length is exactly 11 21:22:32 !bfjoust cheesegrater +[-]-[+] 21:22:37 lol 21:22:37 ​Score for FreeFull_cheesegrater: 8.3 21:22:48 most programs assume that it's safe to move 11 21:22:54 since if they're wrong they only give up one loss 21:22:54 oops 21:22:59 !bfjoust prehistoric_notions (>)*10([-]>)*-1 21:23:02 ​Score for oerjan_prehistoric_notions: 17.0 21:23:06 and programs that don't modify the tape before their flag aren't that effective 21:23:19 !bfjoust hovercraft (>)*9[[-]>] 21:23:21 so it's a fair bet that you can skip the first modification you find up to 11 or so 21:23:22 ​Score for boily_hovercraft: 4.0 21:23:37 !bfjoust hovercraft (>)*9[[-.]>] 21:23:40 ​Score for boily_hovercraft: 4.0 21:23:51 Wait, I forgot to make mine move =P 21:23:57 What are the numbers 21:24:03 points(?) 21:24:08 Not points, score! 21:24:12 I mean in boily's code 21:24:13 [23:06:08] "Points" is just raw duel points from -84 to 84, but "score" is more complicated: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES 21:24:15 And oerjan's 21:24:17 scuse me 21:24:19 yeah, score :P 21:24:30 (xxx)*N is just "repeat N times". 21:24:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:25:00 somebody should set up a clean hill so these guys can have some fun 21:25:01 :P 21:25:12 freefull: I can't believe your program always commits suicide in 260 moves and it still beats mine sometimes 21:25:17 And (aa{bb}cc)%3 is aa aa aa bb cc cc cc. 21:25:18 Snowyowl: :D 21:25:38 !bfjoust >+[-] 21:25:39 ​Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 21:25:45 !bfjoust floppity >+[-] 21:25:49 ​Score for FreeFull_floppity: 3.6 21:25:59 There's also [shameless plug] more stats at http://zem.fi/egostats/ but it doesn't update live, so it's a few weeks old. 21:25:59 !bfjoust floppity >+[-]>-[+] 21:26:02 ​Score for FreeFull_floppity: 3.6 21:26:17 ooh, the plots are interesting! 21:26:20 with the proper marketing bfjoust could be the next Call of Duty 21:27:10 'sieve' and 'kettle'? 21:27:21 Those are the two polarities. 21:27:30 So you lose as soon as your cell is zero, or do you lose if you cell is zero and your program isn't running at that point? 21:27:37 which is which? 21:27:42 One is the straight one, other is where the other program has all its +s flipped to -ses and vice versa. 21:27:46 I always forget. 21:27:48 i mean, i figured that's what it would be 21:27:49 haha 21:28:00 they need better names then :P 21:28:07 really cool though 21:28:12 I even forget the terms, I had to look them up when writing those descriptions. 21:28:13 Sieve is obviously reality prime 21:28:21 And kettle is space 21:28:28 "The polarity where both programs run on their original polarity is sometimes known as "sieve", and the exchanged polarity as "kettle"." 21:28:43 whoever came up with that needs a beating 21:28:44 :P 21:29:01 I'd like to blame elliott, but I'm not certain it's his fault. 21:29:41 I strongly suspect that it is. 21:29:58 [2009-05-27 22:31:26] ais523: Polarities: sieve, kettle. 21:30:03 (First hit from grep.) 21:30:09 haha. 21:30:18 jesus that's a long time ago 21:30:24 `? ehird 21:30:25 FreeFull: you lose if your cell is zero two rounds in a row 21:30:26 ehird? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 21:30:45 ehird = elliott 21:31:14 !bfjoust booooooring (>)*9((+*128.)>)*21 21:31:17 ​Score for Snowyowl_booooooring: 0.0 21:31:33 that's not right 21:31:53 where did I screw up 21:32:12 Snowyowl: i'm not sure the parentheses before * are optional even with a single command 21:32:14 this is all quite addictive 21:32:16 `learn ehird is the person who Taneb definitely isn't. 21:32:33 oerjan: They're not optional, no. 21:32:36 I knew that. 21:32:51 oh, right - parenthesis in the wrong place 21:32:58 (>)*9((+)*128.>)*21 21:33:20 !bfjoust really_boring (>)*9((+*128.)>)*21 21:33:24 ​Score for Snowyowl_really_boring: 0.0 21:33:33 goddamnit 21:33:38 It keeps happening. 21:33:46 Snowyowl: You have a syntax error. 21:33:48 -!- copumpkin has quit. 21:33:57 *n can only come after a ) 21:34:00 !bfjoust warned_you_bro (>)*9((+)*128.>)*21 21:34:03 ​Score for Snowyowl_warned_you_bro: 3.8 21:34:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:34:22 3.8? I'll stick to my infinite chain of no-ops. 21:34:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:34:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 21:34:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:34:55 !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-]>.)*-1 21:34:57 ​Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 13.4 21:35:06 hm that became worse 21:35:10 by which I mean myndzi's infinite chain of no-ops 21:35:22 ? 21:35:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:35:25 wait, *-1 makes it repeat forever 21:35:28 ? 21:35:35 no 21:35:39 essentially yes 21:35:42 probably makes it repeat 4294967296 times 21:35:53 !bfjoust ventilateur (>)*9([-{([+{[-]}])%8}])%4 21:35:56 ​Score for boily_ventilateur: 4.4 21:35:56 IIRC, *-1 is just a number so large that it's infinite for all practical purposes. 21:36:02 i think it's something like 10000 21:36:03 good enough, the game only lasts 10,000 turns 21:36:51 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 21:37:27 !bfjoust preposterous_notions ((>)*4+>)*2([-]>)*-1 21:37:29 ​Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 15.9 21:38:15 hm it's actually pushing my other one down :( 21:38:34 !bfjoust preposterous_notions < 21:38:38 ​Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 0.0 21:38:45 It's exactly the number of turns, if I recall correctly. 21:38:50 Though I think that was 100k and not 10k. 21:39:06 oh, it's special-cased? 21:39:14 seemed like the kind of thing someone just tried and happened to work 21:39:23 that is, -1 interpreted as an unsigned int 21:39:25 That might have been the origin of it. 21:39:54 That was definitely not the origin, since the original interpreter canonicalized. 21:40:00 in the original, ()* was expanded during parsing. 21:40:10 Oh, right. 21:40:17 Well, it is special-cased currently. 21:40:26 (if (c < 0) c = MAXCYCLES;) 21:40:36 (Apparently any negative number is okay.) 21:41:31 does *0 just mean "lol I put code in for no reason" 21:43:04 Snowyowl: Or, alternately, comment. 21:43:59 !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-][+]>)*-1 21:44:02 ​Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 13.4 21:44:43 any of you guys ever messed around with editing apk files? 21:45:10 i evolved myself a keyboard layout that i want to try on my phone, but i can't seem to edit it into swiftkey quite properly 21:46:19 (swiftkey because it is awesome, and it'd be kind of pointless to hack a layout into a soft keyboard i didn't want to use) 21:46:20 !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-{.}]>)%-1 21:46:23 ​Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 3.9 21:46:33 it seems fairly easy, each layout is a separate xml file 21:46:50 but just changing the values caused it to force close every time i click a submenu 21:47:36 Checksum trouble? 21:47:50 !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-{.}]>+)%-1 21:47:52 ​Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 1.1 21:47:53 no 21:47:56 it installs and launches 21:47:58 XD 21:48:29 and if it was a built-in-to-the-program checksum kinda thing, which i doubt, it wouldn't force close i think 21:55:59 hm, looks like SK is actually active on twitter, maybe i'll ask them 21:56:13 except that twitter seems to be down and i can't log in 21:56:14 lol 21:56:25 well, twitter *login* seems to be down 22:00:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:00:59 Is 45k/year decent for someone with my experience? 22:01:05 I flat out have no idea 22:01:39 That's like 30,000? 22:01:55 I know that's roughly the average wage in the UK but living costs etc. 22:02:18 I'm still happy that I got a call from a potential employer 22:02:25 http://thecontributor.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/images/20131401143736.jpg here let's consult the wall street journal 22:02:28 and congrats. 22:02:37 They want me to add some stuff to my resume that I didn't mention on the resume 22:03:54 Bike, so is the joke here that they have a zero too many. 22:04:11 Wait, all those people are making six figures in a year 22:04:17 Isn't that a bit, excessive? 22:04:24 the joke here is that fuck the wsj 22:04:37 ¬u¬ 22:04:45 (but uh i have no idea how reasonable $45k is sorry) 22:05:35 !bfjoust simple + 22:05:38 ​Score for FreeFull_simple: 3.6 22:06:16 @ping 22:06:16 pong 22:13:30 -!- Taneb has quit. 22:15:46 Not sure where I'm going to fit the term "jQuery" on my resume 22:15:52 It isn't exactly a programming language 22:16:00 drop the categories 22:16:05 why would you want to have that on your resume? 22:16:22 because it's massively useful and widely used? 22:16:23 Sgeo: "proficient in the following technologies" 22:16:30 don't even put aheading on it 22:16:38 or that 22:16:50 == things what i done be good at == 22:16:52 olsner, because employer asked me to 22:16:54 for the 100th time: your resume is an advertisement, it's not a pedantically organized character sheet 22:17:20 its sole purpose is to make you look good enough to get a phone call 22:17:27 I got the phone call though. 22:17:30 oh 22:17:34 to get more phone calls, then 22:17:37 then why are you still adjusting your resume? 22:17:45 They told me to add things to it 22:17:47 what 22:17:48 why 22:18:00 "I know you stated you had experience working with JavaScript and jQuery so I would need you to add these two skill sets within your resume. I also need you to add your C# experience within your resume, along with sending me your github account and blog info as well." 22:18:14 that doesn't make any sense to me 22:18:22 is it a big company or small? 22:18:27 I guess they're about to sell you to someone else 22:18:29 I tgather small 22:18:31 *gather 22:18:35 this employer sounds a bit dubious 22:18:42 The person is a "Recruiting Manager" 22:18:48 it sounds like a third party recruiter may be involved and those people are basically the devil 22:18:50 of course i would know with my EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE IN PROGRAMMING-RELATED EMPLOYMENT 22:19:05 elliott: are you old enough to legally be employed yet? 22:19:11 um I guess so 22:19:33 sgeo, if you get eaten by an HR manager, can I have your stuff 22:19:34 kmc, well, I gather that it's for a specific position, of {possibly full-time or possibly contractor} 22:20:25 ...I think it is a third party thing 22:20:44 Company of the person: http://www.momentumrs.com/ Company of the potential place of employment: http://www.jefferies.com/ 22:21:10 Momentum Resource Solutions is a leading provider of Technology, Financial and Human Resource staffing and consulting services and solutions. Momentum's clients operate in many sectors including Financial Services, Pharmaceutical, Insurance, Legal, Telecommunications and Technology. 22:21:11 hint: they don't have the same address 22:21:15 kill me now 22:21:17 wow that looks boring 22:21:22 We provide professional services in the following areas: 22:21:22 Staff Augmentation 22:21:22 Technology 22:21:22 Accounting 22:21:22 AuditingRecruiting 22:21:23 money is money, i guess 22:21:25 Compliance 22:21:27 Brokerage Operations 22:21:29 Human ResourcesProject Management 22:21:31 elliott no 22:21:32 Outsourcing 22:21:34 Antispam Exchange 22:21:37 Managed Services 22:21:40 nooooo we've lost him! 22:21:41 "Compliance" sounds ominous 22:21:55 I think the four alignments for creature kind entry in Icosahedral RPG shall be: U (unaligned), S (stereotype), A (always), and X (don't care). S is most common for intelligent beings, and U for normal animals. 22:21:55 * oerjan is about to do some antispam exchange if this continues 22:22:20 oerjan: i think you'll find that f u 22:22:37 anitspam exchange? 22:22:52 help maybe talking about this in a publically logged channel is a bad idea 22:22:53 exchanging spam with antispam, then harvesting the resulting annihilation energy 22:23:07 Sgeo: its ok 22:23:11 Sgeo: they won't google for "sgeo" 22:23:14 -!- md_5 has joined. 22:23:16 unless you put "sgeo" on your resume??? 22:23:30 elliott, I am planning on linking to my GitHub and Tumblr, both of which mention Sgeo 22:23:48 tumblrs as employment thing... that's pretty ominous 22:23:58 have you considered: starting accounts under your own name 22:24:01 It's a form of blog, they ask if I have a technical blog and I do 22:24:22 i have got to remember to never get employed in this business 22:24:35 I didn't tell them it was a tumblr yet 22:24:45 Is there something wrong with using tumblr as a blog? 22:24:50 heh, I read "form of blog" as farming blog 22:24:56 ha, no, i'm just thinking of my own tumblr 22:24:57 -!- Snowyowl has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:25:34 olsner: sgeos farmville days are behind him 22:25:48 Sgeo: recruiters are the devil, you're lucky that they even asked you to modify your resume rather than modifying it themselves 22:25:52 probably because you used latex 22:25:56 haha. 22:26:02 i'm not even joking :( 22:26:10 so how did you contact the company? 22:26:11 is kmc the devil 22:26:13 through dice.com or something 22:26:15 i know, i just find true things amusing 22:26:27 Bike: did you know... 4 + 9 = 13 22:26:28 kmc, honestly I don't even remember 22:26:28 it would be better to email jobs@wherever.com if this seems viable 22:26:41 they can just print/tippex/scribble/scan 22:27:01 elliott: psh only in one base 22:27:02 like I've heard of people getting rejected because they "lied on their resume" when these lies were added by recruiters 22:27:10 the recruiter's incentives are not aligned with anyone else's 22:27:17 Sgeo: how... did you forget in the space of not very long 22:27:29 ok, i want to hear about this, why the hell would a recruiter /modify/ your resume? 22:27:50 to increase the chance that you get the job and they get their bounty 22:27:56 kmc, I misspoke on the phone interview 22:27:57 :( 22:28:01 they have no incentive to find a good fit or an employee who won't get fired after 2 months 22:28:03 oh, bounties 22:28:21 capitalism's a hell of a drug 22:28:22 kmc, I said that everything except Evolution was on my own initiative, but forgot about Circe which also was someone else's project 22:28:22 if they think you have no chance getting in with a legit resume, there's no cost to them to add lies 22:28:46 also they are sometimes gaming the system set up by clueless buzzword-searching HR departments 22:29:06 they add some value in that they are better at gaming this system than naive, hand-wringing, pedantic correctness obsessed programmers ;) 22:29:09 Well, arguably, they are helping me improve my resyme 22:29:12 yeah maybe 22:29:19 or maybe they're trying to kill you and shit on your corpse 22:29:24 you can never tell 22:29:24 adding jquery seems pretty reasonable 22:29:26 yes it does 22:29:29 kmc: well the cost is that it might be illegal(?) right 22:29:32 but I doubt that's a very big cost 22:29:36 And listing my Senior Project too 22:29:42 since breaking laws is pretty safe! 22:29:50 elliott: is it illegaly? 22:29:56 What's not so reasonable is asking me to mention Javascript when I already mentioned Javascript 22:29:57 well that's what the (?) is for 22:30:00 it should be at least 22:30:01 yeah i don't know 22:30:15 seems like it would fall under the crime of LYING 22:30:19 !!!!!11 22:32:34 Sgeo: like, they said, "add javascript" and you already have javascript? 22:33:25 they must think it's good to have javascript listen twice 22:33:34 Well, in my industry related activities I didn't exactly list when I did Javascript stuff 22:33:36 I wonder if my resume lists javascript 22:34:00 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 22:34:10 I might have done almost as much vbscript as javascript, should I list that? 22:35:12 olsner: list mod_rewrite thue imo 22:37:46 vbscript probably belongs in the list of things I don't remember if I know/knew, but have vague recollections I might have known, along with REXX 22:39:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:39:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:40:44 elliott: good idea 22:40:46 * oerjan hopes this is not one of those disconnections that plagued much of last year 22:41:39 last year was plagued by time travelling disconnections from this year? 22:42:09 Secretely, oerjan is John Titor. 22:44:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 22:44:47 *+kind of 22:47:40 Can any computer game you can set the friendly AI mode to, try to make you to lose? 22:50:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:50:46 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:21:48 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:25:22 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 23:28:58 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:31:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:31:55 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:38:22 -!- md_5 has joined. 23:39:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:45 which here bot has 'seen' 23:44:56 afaik none 23:44:58 well 23:45:02 you can use HackEgo 23:45:05 by doing e.g. `pastelogs 23:45:12 could add a `seen directly I guess 23:45:38 hm i have total logs anyway 23:47:22 totalitarian logs 23:47:36 `cat bin/pastelogs 23:47:37 ​#!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ 23:48:04 `tail /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-01.txt 23:48:05 23:44:47: monqy: no!! it's about uh clojure \ 23:45:02: are you confusing me for sgeo. i don't know clojure........ \ 23:45:34: do you know lens......... \ 23:45:39: : ) \ 23:45:54: : ) \ 23:46:01: : ) \ 23:47:45: ion knows lens. \ 23:48:27: (If I start a line with a space it 23:48:23 k 23:48:46 `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen 23:48:48 No output. 23:48:52 `seen ion 23:48:56 ​/var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:23: k 23:49:07 `seen HackEgo 23:49:11 ​/var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:56: ​/var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:23: k 23:49:17 `seen HackEgo 23:49:20 ​/var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:49:11: ​/var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:56: ​/var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:23: k 23:49:41 `log hm 23:49:47 2012-07-29.txt:12:43:43: fizzie, hm there is /dev/binder opened as fd 3, and there were a lot of ioctls done on that 23:49:51 `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric' >>/bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" ????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen 23:49:54 bash: /bin/seen: Read-only file system 23:49:59 Gregor: help 23:51:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:51:26 read-only file system!? 23:51:34 elliott: (echo ...; echo ...) >bin/seen is shorter 23:51:49 printf '%s\n' ... ... >bin/seen is shorter 23:51:52 oerjan: you're shorter 23:51:57 `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric' >>/bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" ????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen 23:51:59 bash: /bin/seen: Read-only file system 23:52:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:52:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 23:52:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:52:22 `run pwd 23:52:23 ​/hackenv 23:52:28 oh 23:52:29 lol 23:52:30 "/bin/seen: 23:52:31 " 23:52:37 `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric' >>bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" ????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen 23:52:41 No output. 23:52:46 `seen elliott 23:52:52 2013-01-21.txt:23:52:46: `seen elliott 23:53:07 kmc: hth 23:53:10 `seen lament 23:53:13 2012-07-18.txt:18:17:18: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 23:53:21 lament indeed 23:53:29 `seen oerjan_ 23:53:32 2012-12-03.txt:21:43:21: boo 23:53:38 `seen elliott_ 23:53:38 `seen .* 23:53:42 2012-10-08.txt:11:31:58: pikhq_: Hey, is Nvidia or ATI better supported by Linux this month? 23:53:45 elliott: Dude, you can't write to /bin X_X 23:54:02 Gregor: yes yes 23:54:04 hm I should optimis ethis 23:54:09 No output. 23:54:11 it could use fgrep 23:54:14 and search in reverse order 23:54:22 o 23:54:23 `seen mtve 23:54:26 2011-05-05.txt:11:38:06: other examples needed badly 23:54:34 ...i like allowing regexps 23:54:37 `seen renslo 23:54:41 No output. 23:54:46 oerjan: ok you make it search in reverse order then 23:54:53 good, my evil twin has not been here 23:54:54 -!- sivoais has joined. 23:55:04 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 23:55:49 `run printf '%s\n' '#!/bin/sh' "find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name ' 23:55:50 bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file 23:55:52 whoops 23:57:55 `run printf '%s\n' what is this 23:57:56 what \ is \ this 23:58:03 `run printf '%s\n' '#!/bin/sh' "find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep '^..:..:..: <"'$1'">' -- | tail -n 1" >bin/seen; chmod 755 bin/seen; cat bin/seen 23:58:05 ​#!/bin/sh \ find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep '^..:..:..: <$1>' -- | tail -n 1 23:58:52 `run printf '%s\n' '#!/bin/sh' "find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep \"^..:..:..: <"'$1'">\" -- | tail -n 1" >bin/seen; chmod 755 bin/seen; cat bin/seen 23:58:55 ​#!/bin/sh \ find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" -- | tail -n 1 23:59:01 `seen elliott 23:59:09 ​/var/irclogs/_esoteric/2009-07-27.txt:00:11:06: 112 days since use, excellent 23:59:25 d’oh 23:59:45 `seen bike 23:59:49 No output. 23:59:57 :< i am the invisible man