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00:03:38 <elliott> 22:50:00 <oerjan> you _could_ make all monad value types monoids, but then you wouldn't be able to have any other monoids of form t a without overlappinginstances
00:03:51 <elliott> oerjan: um but the idea is to express the monoids-in-the-category-of-endofunctors thing
00:03:57 <elliott> which you can do, with PolyKinds
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00:07:01 <Jafet> `echo I'm still broken!
00:07:41 <Gregor> `echo Your MOM is still broken.
00:24:56 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: what is smerdyakov? :) taken me all night if i actually ever remember to watch introducing python to make something like srfi-49 afaik
00:25:21 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: they gotta teach her how to conjugate verbs
00:25:58 <kmc> 'US senate special election to replace John Kerry will be June 35'
00:27:17 <kmc> becoming secretary of state
00:27:22 <Bike> offense to the gregorian calendar
00:27:41 <kmc> then the photo caption says "June 325" which is April 21, 2014
00:27:50 <Bike> Oh, what's happening to Clinton?
00:27:57 <kmc> stepping down
00:28:05 <kmc> nobody's dying
00:28:08 <Bike> Geez, I missed it
00:28:14 <kmc> except for all of those people you don't know
00:28:16 <elliott> it was my understanding that everyone is dying and hence will eventually die
00:28:29 <ion> Rip already has a nice color, please don’t dye it.
00:28:29 <kmc> "nobody's dying except the people on the other end of those drone strikes" <--- POLITICAL HUMOR
00:28:50 <ion> kmc: *HUMOURE
00:30:35 <kmc> clinton is taking time off to prepare to run for president, and/or to be old and really tired from being the hardest working SecState in forever
00:30:38 <kmc> nobody is quite sure which
00:31:09 <oerjan> she does look damn old
00:31:20 <kmc> she would be the oldest first term president except for reagan
00:31:31 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: often but it's not in the constitution or anything ;P
00:32:17 <oerjan> bush followed reagan, so no.
00:32:25 <kmc> i think she would be too old in 2021 so this is her shot
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00:33:17 <kmc> also http://jezebel.com/5959154/is-america-ready-for-a-white-male-secretary-of-state
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00:35:04 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States is conveniently color-coded if you want to see about alternation or not
00:35:41 <Bike> i thought washington was considered a whig, huh
00:35:56 <kmc> a lot of the non-alternation comes from VPs taking over after the previous guy dies or resigns
00:36:15 <kmc> sometimes they subsequently win a term on their own, sometimes not
00:36:19 <elliott> what i want to know is how do you be the potus without going insane
00:36:22 <elliott> well i guess you just go insane
00:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> did they eventually just die out because their name was so dumb
00:36:41 <Bike> That's what the election is for, they go insane while finding votes.
00:36:51 <Bike> To streamline things, I mean.
00:36:53 <kmc> elliott: yes
00:37:00 <kmc> elliott: it's a very efficient system
00:37:18 <elliott> clinton running for president would be like... I'm not sure how she is even still alive
00:37:25 <kmc> stem cells
00:37:31 <kmc> like that episode of south park
00:37:34 <elliott> like how has she not worked herself to death
00:37:37 <Bike> how old is she, hm...
00:37:59 <Bike> ...well, at least she wasn't alive during WWII
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00:38:04 <elliott> hmm I guess that might be ingrained sexism because I don't really think the same about obama or whatever who obviously does unreasonable fuckloads of stuff too
00:38:23 <Bike> well obama was a senator
00:38:30 <kmc> so was clinton
00:38:40 <Bike> yeah, but she's done lots of other stuff
00:38:50 <Bike> is what i meant
00:38:57 <elliott> s/obama/anyone who works a lot/ really
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00:39:11 <Bike> for example that whole "secretary" gig
00:39:18 <elliott> wasn't clinton kind of bad when she ran for president last time
00:39:28 <Bike> You mean in 2008?
00:39:47 <kmc> her advisors did not seem to have a full grasp of the primary / caucus system
00:39:59 <Bike> does anyone? (I sure don't)
00:40:22 <kmc> most of my friends were pretty pissed at her because we all wanted Obama to get the nomination, but then we pretty much didn't care once that was over
00:40:35 <kmc> Bike: hopefully paid political advisors at the highest level of national politics do
00:40:50 <kmc> anyway, they had a much worse understanding than obama's people
00:41:06 <Bike> personally i can barely grasp the electoral college...
00:41:19 <kmc> i made some decent money day-trading primary election contracts on InTrade
00:42:00 <elliott> kmc: right it is like the other candidate for the same party with the same general policies is satan because they are opposing your preferred candidate :P
00:42:20 <elliott> but then your candidate gets picked and they're a valuable ally in the fight against satan (the other party)
00:42:24 <kmc> their policies were pretty amusingly close really
00:42:40 <kmc> the main difference I guess is that Obama was opposed to the Iraq War early on
00:42:57 <Jafet> Something something Nader something
00:43:03 <kmc> important because 2008 was all about who could be the least like George W. Bush
00:43:13 <Bike> something something ron pauuuuul something
00:43:22 <kmc> i wanna be the very best, like no-one ever was
00:43:26 <kmc> RON PAUL gotta catch em all
00:43:33 <kmc> Ron Paul: apply directly to the forehead
00:43:42 <kmc> ok i'm done
00:43:55 <kmc> *mic drop*
00:44:03 <elliott> what would we do without you kmc
00:48:22 <Sgeo> I am going to eat dinner now rather than later because I did not eat breakfast
00:48:27 <Sgeo> I think I might have food issues
00:49:13 <Bike> wait didn't you already do college, shouldn't you be used to a shitty dietary schedule
00:53:21 <Sgeo> College helped me. There's a sandwich place where I would go buy a sandwich
00:53:33 <Sgeo> When I had school
00:54:01 <olsner> oh, there's an IIS workalike for mod_rewrite, I wonder if it's similar enough that my rewrite stuff works
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01:06:51 <kmc> http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/Barry_Obama_lg.jpg NB: "choom" is hawaiian slang for "smoking the marijuana dope"
01:15:13 <kmc> you should all be saving screenshots of embarassing stuff from your friends' facebook pages, in case one of them ever becomes president
01:15:30 <kmc> either that, or don't do that at all and never log into facebook because it's terrible
01:15:31 <ion> I fail to see the embarrassing in that image.
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01:20:01 <Lumpio-> oh no presidents that have been normal people once D:
01:20:05 <Bike> uh hello?? drugs??
01:23:48 <ion> bike: I’m sure plenty of presidents have used alcohol, too.
01:24:21 <kmc> but alcohol is a good american drug
01:24:28 <Bike> ion, you're not american, are you.
01:24:52 <Bike> we have all these exciting insane mores that you guys just don't GET, man
01:26:33 <elliott> imo we should circlejerk about this some more
01:26:47 <pikhq> I'd prefer an actual circlejerk.
01:28:28 <kmc> hard to do that over IRC
01:28:34 <Jafet> If your friends have any remote chance of becoming president of the united states, you should find better friends
01:29:00 <kmc> oh well, by the time obama leaves office, support for legalization could be close to 2/3
01:29:58 <pikhq> Marijuana legalization has been making rather profound progress in the court of public opinion.
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01:32:24 <kmc> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/10/19/us/politics/fivethirtyeight-1019-firstpot/fivethirtyeight-1019-firstpot-blog480.png
01:33:08 <kmc> 2/3 might be a stretch but maybe 60%+
01:34:45 <kmc> i think [UNINFORMED SPECULATION BY PROGRAMMER ABOUT SOCIAL SCIENCE AHEAD!] there may be a cascade effect with these kind of social norms
01:35:29 <kmc> you're more likely to support legalization if you have a few friends who openly support it and aren't degenerate dope-addled hippies
01:35:46 <elliott> i need more degenerate dope-addled hippie friends
01:35:58 <kmc> i'm a phony :(
01:36:06 <kmc> but yes i will be your friend elliott
01:36:26 <elliott> I've never had a friend before!!
01:37:09 <kmc> also i love the dip on that graph as the baby boomers get old and start deciding that all the stuff /they/ enjoyed as kids is now scary and wrong when their own kids do it
01:37:13 <kmc> truly, the worst generation
01:39:14 <elliott> kmc: almost as bad as every other generation
01:40:22 <kmc> well in the american popular conception of generations, the boomers didn't do anything worthwhile like fight nazis
01:40:27 <kmc> however this might be grossly unfair
01:41:41 <elliott> well ai gree baby boomers are shit
01:41:51 <elliott> but I'm not sure I can extend that to agreeing that not everything else is shit
01:42:20 <kmc> "generations" concept is pretty bullshit
01:42:33 <kmc> every time i see a NYT article about "millenials" i puke a little in my mouth
01:43:02 <Bike> is the cut off date for millenials 2000? or if you're a bit older do you still count as Today's Mixed-Up Teens
01:43:23 <kmc> i think millenials are 20something now
01:43:47 <kmc> stereotypically, unemployed overeducated 20somethings who live with their parents after college
01:44:16 <kmc> current generation is "Generation Z" and they are zombies
01:44:38 <elliott> do i count as generation z
01:45:27 <Bike> Did they seriously just count up from "Generation X"?
01:46:04 <Bike> god, if you're going to use some bizarre-ass model of human growth at least have cool names for it
01:46:21 <kmc> blame douglas coupland
01:46:25 <elliott> what comes after generation z
01:46:31 <kmc> nuclear annihilation
01:46:33 <elliott> also isn't douglas coupland an anarchocapitalist
01:46:41 <elliott> that is like the one thing i know about douglas coupland & i don't even know if it's true
01:46:44 <Bike> oh man i am so up for blaming ancaps for things
01:47:56 <Bike> "A specific feature of Coupland's novels is their synthesis of postmodern religion, Web 2.0 technology, human sexuality, and pop culture."
01:48:08 <Bike> "He published his twelfth novel Generation A in 2009." oh /shit/
01:48:25 <elliott> i don't eactually know if he is an anarchocapitalist or bad or whatever
01:48:29 <elliott> my memory is not terribly great
01:48:31 <elliott> except about useless things
01:48:40 <kmc> "It takes place in a near future, in a world in which bees have become extinct."
01:48:40 <Bike> yeah it doesn't look like he is
01:49:18 <Bike> so we're all dead or what
01:49:22 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Couplandart.jpg this is actually kinda neat
01:49:39 <Bike> though it's kind of weird to sculpt something about that war in 2008?
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02:24:33 <elliott> Bike: what about existential types. comments on a postcard because I am leaving NOW lambdabot messages is @tell
02:25:10 <Bike> @tell elliott i don't know, monqy said to ask you about them? i was wondering what they were for. also this may be some kind of plot
02:28:37 <kmc> @tell elliott. @telliott.
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03:36:54 <zzo38> SQLite cannot create triggers on virtual tables, and cannot use ALTER TABLE and so on to rename views and triggers.
03:39:03 <zzo38> But it might still be possible to do some of these things using the sqlite_master table.
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03:45:07 <quintopia> i didnt know azaq23 hung out here also
03:46:18 <zzo38> Such things, as well as ADD COLUMN triggers on views, may be useful if you are making a view to override a table, and want to allow it to be further overridden.
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03:58:59 <zzo38> I suppose a lot of these things aren't that important and may be a bit difficult to implement, but you really should be allowed to rename a view.
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04:19:59 <kmc> wow, apparently even if you have perfectly working internet, pidgin will refuse to connect to anything if network-manager thinks you don't have internet
04:21:03 <zzo38> That doesn't make sense, especially if you will want to connect to your own computer.
04:21:24 <pikhq> Why does Pidgin even know about network-manager?
04:22:17 <Sgeo> I remember having problems of some kind that were fixed by switching network managers
04:22:31 <Sgeo> I think it wasn't Pidgin related though. I was having connection trouble period
04:22:38 <Sgeo> Using a different network manager fixed it
04:23:26 <kmc> pikhq: beats me
04:23:36 <kmc> probably so that it can do clever things like reconnect when you switch wifi access points
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04:35:58 <kmc> also if the rfkill switch for the PCIe WiFi card is enabled, then network-manager refuses to touch the USB WiFi card even though the linux rfkill subsystem says it's fine
04:36:23 <kmc> which is bad news because on this system the PCIe rfkill switch is stuck on, which is why the USB WiFi in the first place ;P
04:37:16 <shachaf> Not using network-manager sounds like a good solution.
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04:40:41 <kmc> not to be all 90s Linux Guy but this shit is just broken, time and time again
04:41:01 <Bike> doesn't complaining about things in ubuntu make you 90s Linux Guy by default
04:41:28 <kmc> actually this is debian :/
04:41:40 <Bike> it's all the same shit
04:41:59 <shachaf> network-manager is always broken.
04:42:01 <kmc> of course the flip side is that now the user of this system (not me) has to learn about ifupdown and wpa_supplicant, which definitely are less friendly to casual users than nm-applet
04:42:20 <Bike> oh i remember giving up on learning wpa_supplicant once
04:42:20 <kmc> but it's not a big deal for someone who's comfortable with the command line
04:43:00 <kmc> i didn't try it
04:43:02 <Bike> i use wicd, it's ok
04:43:12 <Bike> takes forever for the curses interface to boot up for what i imagine are stupid reasons
04:43:34 <Bike> the dbus stuff is kinda nice though.
04:43:56 <shachaf> monoids are kinda nice imo
04:44:30 <kmc> my friend said monoids make you impotent
04:44:37 <kmc> i don't believe him but, please prepare a 3-page rebuttal
04:45:02 <Bike> shachaf do you remember that time i looked up monoids and found a groups-but-less-so-but-still-not-monoids formalism used in describing concurrency?
04:45:13 <Bike> you should use those for a network manager gizmo.
04:45:54 <Bike> Wait, what am I thinking, they're monoids but less so, rather than groups but less so.
04:45:59 <Bike> So probably easier, right?
04:46:15 <shachaf> imo let's just stick with monoids
04:46:31 <Bike> It's commutative "sometimes"!!
04:46:51 <Bike> Always, shachaf. Always.
04:47:21 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid#Partially_commutative_monoid good description imo
04:47:39 <shachaf> That's more than a monoid, then.
04:48:10 <shachaf> imo nothing is easier than monoids
04:48:33 <Bike> but i like commutativity :(
04:49:56 <kmc> i propose we give shachaf the old Ludovico treatment, where the film is just beaky quotes over and over
04:51:35 <shachaf> kmc: beaky gave me that treatment long enough
04:51:40 <shachaf> I used to be very annoyed by beaky
04:52:14 <Bike> Is he some kind of criminal mastermind?
04:52:21 <Bike> He's corrupted you...
04:53:34 <shachaf> i have joined the cult of beaky
04:54:00 * Bike backs away slowly, forming the sign of the cross
04:54:43 <kmc> shachaf is cured all right
04:55:34 <Sgeo> I'm addicted to reading about EVE
04:55:44 <kmc> EVE is the new Sgeolang
04:56:25 <Bike> Does EVE have a scripting language? It should have a scripting language based on the stock market.
04:57:07 <shachaf> <kmc> ah, i do love cargo cult technical analysis
04:57:38 <Bike> When's that quoted from?
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04:58:28 <shachaf> I was looking for a thing kmc said once but I guess it must've been in -blah
04:59:16 <shachaf> Wow, this is like reading beaky logs.
04:59:43 <shachaf> i love lightweight threads
05:00:05 <shachaf> I guess we've uncovered beaky's secret identity.
05:00:19 <shachaf> Or maybe that's beaky's non-secret identity.
05:00:35 <Bike> I'm going to have to burn down this whole channel to remove the taint.
05:06:12 <Sgeo> i love burning irc channels
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05:20:38 <HackEgo> RohdgehrThehGreaht: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
05:24:20 <Sgeo> Hi RodgerTheGreat
05:24:55 <Sgeo> Good. I have been paying attention in another channel where you happen to be
05:25:03 <Sgeo> There is no non-weird way to phrase that, is there
05:25:41 <RodgerTheGreat> well I mean what's not to like about concatenative languages amirite
05:26:17 <Sgeo> stack shuffling
05:26:56 <Sgeo> This kills the space=composition
05:27:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I used to hang out in this channel a few years ago and it just occurred to me that the only reason I stopped was because I was too lazy to log into freenode in addition to the other server I frequent. Except now I'm on freenode all the time too.
05:30:34 <Bike> Maybe random Forth programs have a better chance of working than random Clojure programs.
05:31:07 <RodgerTheGreat> at the very least I can say that random strings have a better chance of being valid forth programs than valid clojure programs
05:31:54 <Sgeo> Creatures SVRules was designed with that in mind I think
05:32:15 <Sgeo> A programming language where random mutations shouldn't cause syntax errors
05:33:04 <Sgeo> http://creatureswiki.net/wiki/Brain#A_note_from_the_programmer
05:33:34 <Bike> Are there any esolangs on the wiki based off of DNA transcription?
05:34:26 <Bike> I guess you need all the proteins and general systemic systemitude to get "the full unbrittle experience"
05:34:39 <RodgerTheGreat> well there are quite a few fungeoids which might be suitable
05:34:55 <Bike> Suitable for what?
05:35:11 <RodgerTheGreat> for being evolved via random mutation without utterly exploding
05:36:09 <Bike> Sgeo: An assemblyish language doesn't seem like the best way to do that, but it's way better I guess. And apparently worked.
05:36:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it would be nice to have a graphical hill-climbing demo generating piet programs
05:36:44 <Sgeo> Later Creatures engines don't seem to allow for brain mutations :(
05:37:17 <Sgeo> Once made a genome where I set the brain genes to be allowed to mutate... the brain never mutated... wait, those are the genes, not the SVRules on the genes that I was looking at mutationwise
05:38:21 <RodgerTheGreat> so if you had brain mutations what are the odds that you end up with a norn who just spins around in a circle until he dies or something like that
05:38:57 <Bike> Well they're still based on neurons aren't they? Shitloads of redundancy.
05:39:08 <Sgeo> I don't think vocab stuff is stored in the brain as such
05:39:41 <Bike> So you'd get a norn that just spun around in a circle on alternate tuesdays.
05:39:42 <Sgeo> It's easy to modify the brain to, say, make them blind, or make them killing machines enslaved by a dendrite in their brain that, no matter what they want to do, forces them to "hit norn"
05:40:01 <Sgeo> Don't know the chance of a random mutation doing that though
05:40:14 <RodgerTheGreat> Sgeo: I'm torn between thinking that's terrible and thinking that's fucking great
05:41:02 <Sgeo> I've done it. Watched two of them fight. Often one would be terrified but they couldn't run away.
05:41:14 <Bike> Fun game, huh.
05:42:07 <RodgerTheGreat> arguably much darker than the way people generally play The Sims, because at least in that case you aren't prying open their skulls and rewiring their brains
05:42:14 <Sgeo> Also fun: Trying to make them produce ATP exponentially and seeing how much ATP Decoupler it now takes to kill them
05:42:32 <Bike> What the hell, man.
05:42:44 <Sgeo> Lemme see if I still have a pic
05:43:30 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, you're a Creatures fan?
05:44:10 * Sgeo is C3/DS focused
05:44:17 <Sgeo> Never tried the other games
05:45:50 <RodgerTheGreat> have you tried using these surgically-altered supersoldier norns to kill grendels?
05:46:09 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/CcRPqzy.png
05:47:11 <Sgeo> I don't know if the latest versions I have lying around are set to hit all creatures or just norns
05:47:14 <Sgeo> I think all creatures
05:47:36 <Sgeo> I also made them stronger (in terms of being less vulnerable), not sure if they're perfect though
05:47:44 <Sgeo> So they should be able to defeat grendels
05:48:42 <Sgeo> Yes, although I'm not sure whether trying to keep the chemical at 0 is sufficient, or if I'd need to clear the relevant neuron before the brain processes, or what
05:49:08 <Sgeo> But why would I want to do that? It's not like the brain is going to process pain significantly differently from, say, severe boredom
05:49:28 <Sgeo> Arguably pain feels better than boredom, because pain and fear cause the other drives to go down
05:50:23 <RodgerTheGreat> do they just curl up in a ball if you wire them to always be in pain, then?
05:50:36 <Sgeo> They make the "ow" sound repeatedly
05:50:40 <Sgeo> And have a sad look on their face
05:51:13 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Antinorn.
05:51:33 <Bike> Are there sim games that don't bring out the Milgram in all of us
05:51:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that when brain-uploading becomes feasible at some point in the distant future there are going to be some absolutely monstrous games made as a result
05:52:13 <Antinorn> People have made death threats to norn torturers
05:52:32 <RodgerTheGreat> they are cute and good at eliciting empathetic responses in humans
05:52:54 <RodgerTheGreat> presumably on some level to discourage players from torturing them to death
05:53:27 <Antinorn> Which do you feel would cause more of a response: Commands to cause norns to make sounds like they're miserable and in pain but don't actually feel it, or commands to cause pain in the norns that doesn't get expressed outwardly?
05:54:21 <Antinorn> Breed I made once: The badniks. (Took name suggestion from someone). Basically a norn in a toy robot body
05:54:39 <Antinorn> They can't eat or play with toys, for all the world they are a toy, but their brain is still active, suffering
05:55:58 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Scream
05:57:44 <Bike> Seriously though, what the hell.
05:57:54 <Bike> Did you pick the wings off of flies?
05:59:51 <Antinorn> Their brains are very simple, I find it unlikely that there's actually a conscious experience
06:00:29 <Antinorn> Although admittedly I am uncertain as to what sort of programming it would take before there's a real moral question
06:00:35 <Bike> I still don't pick the wings off of flies.
06:00:48 <Antinorn> I'm talking about norn brains, not fly brains
06:01:04 <Bike> You think flies are conscious?
06:01:06 <RodgerTheGreat> fly brains are admittedly many orders of magnitude more complex than norn brains
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06:03:39 <Antinorn> Hi monqy. The entire channel seems to think I'm a sociopath.
06:04:01 <Bike> Do you torture ancient Chinese friendship monqys?
06:04:15 <monqy> not to my knowledge
06:04:16 <Bike> I think a Han emperor shot for immortality that way.
06:05:51 <Antinorn> I've done good things to norns
06:06:16 <Antinorn> Wrote an agent that stops them from using the Holistic Learning Machine more than once, which is good because they tend to get addicted
06:06:50 <Antinorn> http://exploringtheark.livejournal.com/2840.html
06:07:46 <Bike> I think the Xia dynasty is more interesting than the Han though.
06:08:06 <Antinorn> I've made norns incapable of hitting norns, and norns incapable of hitting any creature
06:08:11 <Bike> I should probably know more about Creatures. My friends played it when I was a kid and it's all very noncognitivistish AI.
06:08:35 <Antinorn> It's not too late to start playing (it is too late to get an account)
06:08:40 <Bike> Doesn't one of the guys behind it have a reasonably high-traffic blog? I think I remember reading one of his entries about today's mixed-up teens.
06:08:44 <Bike> What systems is it for?
06:08:48 <Bike> And why would I need an account.
06:08:53 <RodgerTheGreat> Antinorn: does the process to make them abhor violence involve classical music and eyedrops?
06:09:10 <Antinorn> http://creaturesdockingstation.com/
06:09:13 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: ^5
06:09:15 <Bike> Two independent clockwork references in one night! Whoa, man.
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06:09:54 <Antinorn> You'd need an account to let norns travel the warp: That is, sending norns to others, receiving them, or making portals that let norns choose to leave for other worlds on their own
06:10:08 <Bike> Antinorn: Oh, cool link, thanks.
06:10:15 -!- Antinorn has changed nick to Sgeo.
06:10:46 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Also, welcome back to the magical land of #esoteric. Some people no doubt missed you. :P
06:11:09 <Sgeo> Bike, you'll need the DS Offline Option (which is linked on the page)
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06:12:04 <Bike> Oh boy, I love applying patches.
06:12:34 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Don't know if I've kept you updated on the sheer madness that Egobot has become.
06:12:41 <pikhq> Well, more to the point, HackEgo.
06:12:52 <Sgeo> It's really simple, it's just putting the files in the correct directories
06:13:07 <Sgeo> Although the readme seems to assume you're on Windows
06:13:18 <pikhq> `run echo `which welcome`
06:13:28 <pikhq> `run cat `which welcome`
06:13:30 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
06:13:31 <Bike> Well, I'm also used to software not working on Linux.
06:13:39 <Sgeo> Bike, this should work on Linux
06:13:45 <pikhq> I think that says it all.
06:13:48 <Bike> I mean in relation to your readme comment.
06:14:03 <Bike> So, I'll try it later.
06:14:13 <Bike> I wonder if 90s vintage software will actually function on this thing.
06:14:35 <Bike> shachaf, norns aren't associative in that way!
06:14:36 <Sgeo> On Windows, it insists on being High Color (16-bit)
06:14:44 <shachaf> monqy: that one was dispproval wasn't it
06:15:01 <RodgerTheGreat> Gregor: still writing horrifying and amazing things in javascript?
06:15:20 <Sgeo> This is more 2001 vintage software I think
06:17:59 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Since he seems to not be around right now: short story "yes, but not all Javascript".
06:18:07 <pikhq> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR His bitbucket is fun.
06:19:03 <Bike> "The necessary components, adapted from OpenSolaris, to build working binaries for AT&T UNIX System V/386 Release 4.0 with no original C compiler system (i.e., no headers, no .a files, no crt files)." what
06:19:47 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: You may also like his IOCCC winner: http://www.ioccc.org/2011/richards/richards.c
06:20:19 <Bike> Oh, christ, that was him?
06:20:20 <Sgeo> I'm wondering if/when someone looking for Haskell monad tutorials will accidentally stumble on the APL/J description of monads
06:20:34 <Bike> Sgeo: god, i hope so
06:21:57 <monqy> 'monad' is so horribly overloaded im confident someone has heard about 'monads in haskell' and thought it's some philosophy junk
06:22:21 <monqy> horribly confused but probably at a less harmful level than the result of a bad monad tutorial?
06:22:52 <Bike> hey, nuthin wrong with some random nerd learning about Leibniz, right?
06:24:00 <monqy> a term for Divinity or the first being, or the totality of all beings,[citation needed] Monad being the source or the One meaning without division.
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06:25:24 <monqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Leibniz_Monadology_2.jpg manuscript on "monadology", by leibniz
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06:25:52 <shachaf> is that leibniz's handwriting
06:26:44 <shachaf> for example: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1094.PDF
06:26:45 <RodgerTheGreat> dijkstra's was great from a fairly objective standpoint
06:26:46 <monqy> Monads are manifest, since they are everywhere, and there is no extension without monads
06:27:06 <shachaf> monqy: no that's comonads.............
06:27:07 <pikhq> That is a ridiculously neat hand.
06:27:54 <shachaf> Sometimes I wish I had handwriting as good as EWD's.
06:28:32 <shachaf> But even if I got a fountain pen, I wouldn't be able to do the other half for very long
06:29:09 <Bike> The monadology thing is pretty hilarious actually
06:29:30 <Bike> it's like atomic theory if atoms were sapient and couldn't talk and took up no space ("extension")
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06:33:52 * pikhq spends more time in awe at EWD's handwriting
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08:39:42 <FreeFull> Aw shit, I just saw how difference lists are implemented
08:39:49 <FreeFull> Or at least, one implementation
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08:58:48 <Sgeo> Maybe looking at the list of languages on RosettaCode may not be a good idea for me
08:59:55 <Sgeo> Feed my language addiction
09:00:39 <shachaf> Maybe you should quit, Sgeo.
09:11:01 <monqy> most of those languages are probably bad anyway
09:11:35 <shachaf> Sgeo: imo ada should be your next language
09:12:55 <fizzie> Tip of the day: languages that a Sgeo uses are commonly called "Sganguages".
09:13:34 <shachaf> What do we call the languages Sgeo talks about but never actually uses for anything?
09:19:24 <fizzie> I mean, I think I've seen a few papers on the evolution of the sganguage-sgunge ratio.
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09:43:22 <Sgeo> "As concurrency is part of the language specification, the compiler can in some cases detect potential deadlocks."
09:44:01 <Sgeo> "Ada also supports run-time checks to protect against ... off-by-one errors"?
09:44:22 <Sgeo> Presumably just those that result in out-of-bounds access, or ... what?
09:45:09 <shachaf> you can say "stuff like" type T is range 1 .. 100;
09:45:14 <shachaf> "lets see haskell do that??"
09:46:28 <Sgeo> "Ada is a structured programming language, meaning that the flow of control is structured into standard statements."
09:46:44 <Sgeo> Is this Wikipedia article written from the point of view of a person in the ancient past?
09:46:59 <Sgeo> Are you from the past?
09:47:06 <shachaf> guess what the latest version of ada is
09:47:10 <Sgeo> ^^apply British accent
09:47:32 <Sgeo> Also I should watch more IT Crowd
09:49:21 <Jafet> 2012 and it still doesn't have a turing-complete type system
09:49:35 <Jafet> Son I'm disappoint
09:50:48 <Sgeo> So GNAT Programming Studio is a well-known IDE for Ada but it can also be used for Python
09:52:06 <shachaf> Your next language should totally be Ada.
09:52:41 <Sgeo> shachaf, if it is, it is entirely your fault
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10:39:22 <shachaf> coppro: So can you tell me about things that are corepresentable by a costrong copprofunctor?
10:43:00 <lambdabot> lispy says: I think communicating with aliens will make unicode obsolete :(
10:43:12 <lambdabot> ddarius says: Alternatively, it could be arrived at from the continuity properties of exponentials.
10:43:22 <lambdabot> ndm says: i once had a boss who complained because some code someone had written crashed, and yet "it clearly says in the company coding guidelines not to write code that crashes"
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10:43:33 <shachaf> @quote \bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco
10:43:33 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: < quicksilver> C++ templates can embed arbitrary computation at compile time < quicksilver> that alone tells you something about the complexity of the compiler < edwardk> yeah.
10:43:33 <lambdabot> they were accidentally turing complete. (whoops!) ;) < quicksilver> edwardk: OOPS I ACCIDENTALLY THE WHOLE TARPIT
10:43:52 <shachaf> @quote \bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco
10:43:52 <lambdabot> <Berengal> says: From "Inventing computer games with Python": "Copying and pasting text is a very useful computer skill, especially for computer programming. There is a video tutorial on copying and
10:43:52 <lambdabot> pasting at this book's website at http://inventwithpython.com/videos/."
10:44:07 <shachaf> @quote \bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco
10:44:07 <lambdabot> <Berengal> says: From "Inventing computer games with Python": "Copying and pasting text is a very useful computer skill, especially for computer programming. There is a video tutorial on copying and
10:44:07 <lambdabot> pasting at this book's website at http://inventwithpython.com/videos/."
10:44:11 <shachaf> @quote \bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco.*\bco
10:44:11 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
10:44:17 <shachaf> That's too many cos. That's just ridiculous.
10:44:49 <oerjan> @quote \bco[^m].*\bco[^m].*\bco[^m]
10:44:49 <lambdabot> luite says: *amacleod started excising GOTOs from his BASIC code when he was 10. *roconnor started excising GOTOs from his Pascal code when he was 11. *luite used goto's in his C code last year.
10:47:23 <Jafet> @quote shift.reset
10:47:24 <lambdabot> therp says: good morning. I think I have been dreaming of shift/reset continuations...
10:47:33 <Jafet> @quote shift.*reset
10:47:33 <lambdabot> therp says: good morning. I think I have been dreaming of shift/reset continuations...
10:47:55 <shachaf> @quote \bco[^d].*\bco[^d].*\bco[^d]
10:47:55 <lambdabot> edwardk says: People are strange, when you're a shapr, faces look ugly when you're alone, women seem wicked when you're unwanted, streets are all uphill when you're a clown. when you're straaaange
10:47:55 <lambdabot> no one remembers your name... coz its changed...coz its changed.. coz its... chaaannnngeed.
10:48:36 <shachaf> @quote \bco[^d].*\bco[^d].*\bco[^d]
10:48:37 <lambdabot> CharlesBabbage says: On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind
10:48:37 <lambdabot> of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
10:48:45 <shachaf> @quote \bco[^du].*\bco[^du].*\bco[^du]
10:48:46 <lambdabot> Igloo says: Did hugs' ./configure always end with "config.status: executing ultra-evil commands"?
10:49:04 <Jafet> @quote \bco[a-z]+\s+co[a-z]+\s+co
10:49:04 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
10:49:16 <Jafet> @quote \bco[a-z]+\s+co
10:49:16 <lambdabot> elliott says: i'm here to prove theorems and compile code and I'm all out of code
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10:55:03 <ais523_> I remember reading through some C code recently and thinking "this would be much clearer with goto"
10:55:17 <ais523_> (it was a break out of a multilevel for loop by setting the control variables)
10:55:36 <ais523_> I think the more refined rule of "never use gotos to jump backwards or into blocks" is probably a better one to teach people
10:55:41 <ais523_> forwards and out of blocks is OK
10:56:23 <Jafet> goto is so good that you have to train people not to use it.
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11:53:21 <ais523_> wow, I just saw some of the most muddled Java code ever
11:53:49 <ais523_> it opened the same file for both read and (non-append) write, then attempted to do a cat from one to the other at the same time as attempting to do the actual exercise
11:54:27 <ais523_> and contained about three nested loops, two of which both looped over lines of the file, and one of which was a standard "i=0;i<n;i++" style for loop except it didn't have a termination condition
11:54:35 <ais523_> and nothing in the body but a single print statement
11:54:53 <ais523_> (ofc it was unreachable, because a file opened for write doesn't contain any lines)
12:03:23 <Lumpio-> Sounds like an enterprice data migration solution
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17:14:47 <oklopol> ais523: i don't think anyone disagrees with that use of goto
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17:31:27 <EgoBot> 60 +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>.>++.>-. [238]
17:32:36 <EgoBot> 82 +++++++++++[>+>++++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>>.+.++++++++.>--.+++.---.<++.------.<-. [247]
17:32:52 <mroman> does it even produce nested loops?
17:33:00 <EgoBot> 72 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.++.---.>.<++++++.>-.++.>. [760]
17:33:10 <mroman> !bf_txtgen The producer produced
17:33:12 <EgoBot> 177 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>.++++++++++++++++++++.---.>>>++++.<.++.<-.-----------.>+++.<-.<.>>---.>.<--.++.---.<+.>++++++.<-.++.-.>>----------------------. [447]
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17:49:09 <fizzie> It's always (+)*n [>(+)*a >(+)*b >(+)*c >(+)*d] and then a sequence of <>+-.
17:49:23 <fizzie> Er, with <<<<- in the (only) loop too.
17:49:40 <fizzie> Quite often that means there's a >><< in the loop.
17:49:55 <fizzie> (The Java program it's based on has the number of cells used as a configurable option.)
17:50:01 <fizzie> !bf_txtgen aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
17:50:03 <EgoBot> 68 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+>+<<<<-]>+......>+...<......>..>--. [458]
17:50:30 <fizzie> Well, that was unexpectedly bad.
17:50:35 <fizzie> !bf_txtgen aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
17:50:37 <EgoBot> 65 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>+....>+.............>--. [723]
17:50:44 <fizzie> And that's not much better.
17:50:54 <fizzie> The version in the bot has quite a low count of generations.
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18:21:11 <EgoBot> 71 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>.>--.>---. [789]
18:21:25 <boily> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>.>--.>---.
18:21:38 <boily> it works even with fake letters!
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18:34:02 <EgoBot> 86 ++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>-.>-.>----.>--. [899]
18:34:43 <boily> !bf_txtgen 私のホバークラフトは鰻で一杯です.
18:34:45 <EgoBot> 854 ++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>>-.<---.<----.>.>>------.<<<.>++.>------------.<<.>.>-----------.<<.>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--------------.>+.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+.<<----------------------------------------------------------.>>>.<.++++++++++++++++++.<.>------------------.+++++.<.>-------.++++++
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18:36:56 <mroman> Your hovercraft is full of eels?
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18:38:55 <pikhq> One would generally write that without the kanji for "unagi" FWIW.
18:39:29 <pikhq> So, 「私のホバークラフトはウナギで一杯です。」
18:39:52 <pikhq> Maybe also いっぱい instead of 一杯, but eh
18:40:22 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen 私のホバークラフトはウナギで一杯です。
18:40:25 <EgoBot> 744 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++++<<<<-]>+++++++.>-.>+++.<<----.>>.>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<++.<------------.<.>>.<-----------.>>.<.<<---------------------------------------.>>>.<<--------------.<-------------.>>>.<.<<------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.++++++++++++++++++.<<.>+.+++++.<.>-------.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<.>+.>---------.<<.>+.+++++++.<.
18:42:05 <EgoBot> 144 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>+++.>--.<<.>.+++.<.>---.>+++++++++++++.<<.>.>.<<.>.>++++++.<<.>.+++++.>>----. [965]
18:42:28 <pikhq> Two; that sucker's usually kanji: 美味しそう
18:43:58 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/esostats/people_stats.html PLORTS
18:44:18 <fizzie> Whoops, I forgot to update the <h1>.
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18:47:56 <mroman> somebody wanted to screw up your x statistics.
18:47:57 <fizzie> It Must Be A Coincidence[tm]: HackEgo has a giant peak at characters-per-message = 10; the string "No output." has ten characters.
18:48:05 <mroman> http://zem.fi/esostats/charfreq_x.html
18:48:45 <kmc> 'Whenever I see people say "lib/lab/con parties are the same, I'm voting UKIP" I read it as "coke and pepsi are the same, I'm drinking piss"'
18:49:19 <fizzie> mroman: The peaks there are things like http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-10-25#163851fungot for example.
18:49:19 <fungot> fizzie: i'm not such fan of stacks, probably because he was expelled and couldn't sit his exam that he was going to
18:50:09 <ais523> stacks proved that he was unable to form an orderly queue
18:53:40 <boily> pikhq: I like my eels kanjied, even if common usage disagrees.
18:54:24 <pikhq> I just like having an excuse to not remember the animal kanji. :P
18:55:41 <boily> when I handwrite it, I use katakanas cause my penmanship is abysmally bad.
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18:56:44 <pikhq> Oddly, my Japanese handwriting is halfway decent.
18:57:24 <boily> I have this handicap called "left handedness".
19:03:13 <boily> eeeh... I think, last time I checked, that I'm far from being on the 女 side of humanity.
19:03:38 <pikhq> Could be trans and not know it? :P
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19:11:49 * boily はpikhqを大きなニジマスでひっぱたく。
19:14:29 * boily whistles innocently... ♪
19:16:34 <pikhq> Google Translate I assume?
19:16:47 <Gregor> ARE YOU CHALLENGING MY JAPANESE PROWESS
19:17:13 <pikhq> Yes, but that ended up being a remarkably understandable translation.
19:17:35 <pikhq> Not quite *right*, but remarkably understandable.
19:18:03 <pikhq> "Stop the communist talk; we beat you in the war." or some such
19:19:09 <Gregor> pikhq: Considering that what I entered was grammatically incorrect, that's pretty good.
19:19:13 <mroman> it's actually pretty awesome that they write from right to left.
19:19:14 <Gregor> "Stop talking communist, we won the war."
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19:19:36 <mroman> the stroke order however is right handed.
19:19:45 <pikhq> Gregor: What it jacked up was it didn't use the imperative at all.
19:20:12 <pikhq> Gregor: "(someone) stops talking communist, we won the war" is more what the Japanese actually says.
19:20:25 <Gregor> If it didn't use the imperative, then didn't it really say something more like "You st—right.
19:27:10 <AnotherTest> find q and r in a = q*b + r ; now compute the same with b = a and a = r until r = 0
19:27:30 <AnotherTest> Is this a recursive or iterative way of writing the Euclidean algorithm?
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19:57:41 <mroman> you can implement it recursive
19:58:10 <mroman> until sounds iterative
19:59:03 <AnotherTest> actually I think it is somehow iterative in that way, but on the other hand it seems recursive
19:59:16 <mroman> the are the same as far as I'm concerned.
19:59:40 <mroman> for i = 0; i < 10; i ++ { i++;}
19:59:46 <mroman> is that recursive or iterative?
20:00:23 <AnotherTest> you clearly wrote the interation step: i++
20:01:08 <AnotherTest> yes, but now you could formulate it different
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20:01:15 <AnotherTest> and it would do the same thing, only in a recursive way
20:01:35 <mroman> increment j and i as long as i is smaller than 10
20:01:40 <mroman> is that recursive or iterative?
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20:01:48 <AnotherTest> A simple base case (or cases), and A set of rules which reduce all other cases toward the base case.
20:02:13 <AnotherTest> although mathematical iteration is defined as applying a function to itself
20:02:36 <oerjan> AnotherTest: iterative == tail recursive, essentially
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20:03:02 <mroman> I'd go with an algorithm is an algorithm and you can implement it either recursive or iterative
20:03:19 <AnotherTest> oerjan: aha, and the example I gave was tail recursive
20:04:19 <mroman> although it should be noted that usual I don't know what I'm talking about
20:04:19 <AnotherTest> mroman: I agree, but I was just wondering about this particular formulation of the algorithm
20:05:33 <AnotherTest> compute b = a + 1 and then make the same calculation with b
20:06:11 <AnotherTest> I guess that would be f(x) = x+1, f(f(f(...(x)...)))
20:06:55 <AnotherTest> But you can also see it as f(x) = f(x -1) + 1
20:07:27 <AnotherTest> and the way I formulate didn't really tell whether or not I mean the former or the latter
20:07:54 <AnotherTest> although would it be a problem if the function took 2 parameters?
20:08:08 <AnotherTest> Well I guess you could still do function composition
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21:20:27 <kmc> #django is like 10:1 questions:answers :(
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21:22:58 <Gregor> ##questionsonly is 10:0 questions:answers.
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21:24:01 <ion> I see what you did there.
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21:45:44 <oerjan> > chr . read <$> words "72 101 108 108 111 44 32 119 111 114 108 100 33 10"
21:46:40 <boily> > chr <$> [0xC3, 0xA9]
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21:51:35 <HackEgo> ElisaL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:53:34 <oerjan> it's a bit quiet here at the moment
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21:55:50 <boily> plenty of voids, of unanswered mythical questions, of puzzlements, of weirdness (even if we aren't going to reach next Friday in a while), and kmces who shout.
21:56:00 * kmc shouts at fungot
21:56:01 <fungot> kmc: doesn't r5rs define core features and then library functions?
21:56:06 <kmc> fungot: does it?
21:56:07 <fungot> kmc: yep. i'm using drscheme)?
21:56:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:56:14 <kmc> ^style c64
21:56:15 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
21:56:16 * kmc shouts at fungot
21:56:17 <fungot> kmc: flag1 is a one's place, then you'll be able to understand. beginning and advanced programmers leave let out because it's the lowest location used. it concludes with the crsr keys.
21:56:39 <kmc> nice alliteration there
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22:15:10 <ion> echo $((-2**63/-1))
22:16:20 <kmc> > -2**63/-1
22:16:27 <kmc> > -2**63 / -1
22:16:40 <kmc> `run echo $((-2**63/-1))
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22:19:01 <fizzie> fungot: You're not paying by the character, you can say "cursor" and not have to abrv it as "crsr".
22:19:01 <fungot> fizzie: one of the easiest way to translate sheet music for your statements might not otherwise run in the
22:19:08 <boily> lambdabot's running on a 32bit machine?
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22:20:19 <kmc> > maxBound :: Int
22:20:52 <ais523> hmm… is that parsed as -(2**63) or (-2)**63?
22:20:55 <ais523> I guess it has to be the latter
22:21:24 <ais523> boily: well (-2)**63 == (-2)**31 on a 32-bit machine
22:22:16 <fizzie> (-2)**63 Haskellwise is a Floating, anyway?
22:22:27 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Real./' [infixl 7] and prefix...
22:22:43 <oerjan> Terminated just means lambdabot timed out for whatever reason
22:24:33 <fizzie> http://kqueue.org/blog/2012/12/31/idiv-dos/ -- oh ho, that's been even in PostgreSQL.
22:25:13 <kmc> it was a level in the io wargame too
22:26:12 <kmc> in this case it's Terminated because it got a SIGFPE signal
22:26:23 <kmc> possibly caught by GHC runtime, possibly not
22:26:35 <oerjan> kmc: um no it isn't, it doesn't parse hth
22:26:43 <kmc> so why that result
22:26:48 <kmc> > (-2**63) / (-1)
22:26:58 <kmc> > ((-2**63) / (-1)) :: Int
22:26:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
22:27:05 <oerjan> because sometimes lambdabot gives Terminated just when it's too busy
22:27:06 <kmc> > ((-2**63) `div` (-1)) :: Int
22:27:08 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
22:27:21 <kmc> > ((-2^63) `div` (-1)) :: Int
22:27:34 <kmc> there we are
22:27:54 <Bike> kmc: fiora mentioned that there are processors that give you 0x8fffffff and 0x80000000
22:27:59 <kmc> > ((-2^63) - 1) :: Int
22:29:12 <fizzie> What about processors that give you 0x100000000 except somehow stuffed in 32 bits, maybe by making the 0s a bit less wide than usual?
22:29:27 <Bike> are there such processors
22:29:27 <kmc> they might burst
22:29:38 <olsner> ooh, compressed integers?
22:29:45 <fizzie> Blorp, goes the processor, bit juice leaking all over the place.
22:29:49 <Bike> most processors can't handle more than 1:1 bitcompression
22:29:55 <kmc> that reminds me of the old microcomputer trick: format your tapes several times, not just one
22:30:03 <kmc> each time the tape stretches a bit and you get more storage
22:30:40 <kmc> right that was for the ZX Microdrive
22:31:26 <olsner> or maybe the tapes could become vulcanizing if you stretch them, so that if you do that one time too many you end up with a solid puck of tape
22:33:24 <fizzie> Regular 1440k floppies you could (FSVO "could") quite well format at 1600k or 1680k for a bit of extra space.
22:34:23 <fizzie> (Sadly, it probably wouldn't stretch anything.)
22:34:24 <olsner> I once had some 2.88MB floppies that I accidentally reformatted as 1.44MB and I had no tools that could add back the 2.88MB magic
22:34:33 <olsner> then I was slightly sad
22:35:08 <tswett> So does formatting a floppy drive actually redraw the lines between bits?
22:35:20 <tswett> Floppy disks have little lines painted in between the bits, right?
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22:35:55 <olsner> the humunculus with the chalk walks out and redraws the lines, yeah
22:35:56 <oerjan> you have to draw the line somewhere
22:36:24 <tswett> I guess I kinda expected the lines to be permanent somehow.
22:37:07 <tswett> I suppose this means that a formatted floppy disk necessarily has a finite lifespan, since every time you write to it, the bits move around a little bit, and eventually some of the bits will get too close together.
22:37:43 <olsner> I don't think the bits actually move around, they just change magnetization
22:38:13 <tswett> Well, I mean, if you draw new bits on top of old bits, you're not going to get them in exactly the same place that you did before.
22:39:34 <oerjan> magnets, how do they work
22:40:06 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_format
22:42:59 <fizzie> In Linux you could just access/fdformat the /dev/fd0H{1600,1680,1722,1743,1760,1840,1920} device -- going as high up as you dare.
22:55:36 <boily> 1743? why an ugly odd number between all those beautiful evens?
22:56:33 <kmc> that's parityist
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22:59:50 <Bike> what's the rule for determining divisibility by seven? i forget.
22:59:54 <oerjan> `run echo "1600,1680,1722,1743,1760,1840,1920" | xargs -d, -1 factor
22:59:55 <HackEgo> xargs: invalid option -- '1' \ Usage: xargs [-0prtx] [--interactive] [--null] [-d|--delimiter=delim] \ [-E eof-str] [-e[eof-str]] [--eof[=eof-str]] \ [-L max-lines] [-l[max-lines]] [--max-lines[=max-lines]] \ [-I replace-str] [-i[replace-str]] [--replace[=replace-str]] \ [-n max-args] [--max-args=max-args] \ [-s
23:00:26 <oerjan> `run echo "1600,1680,1722,1743,1760,1840,1920" | xargs -d, -n 1 factor
23:00:28 <HackEgo> 1600: 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 \ 1680: 2 2 2 2 3 5 7 \ 1722: 2 3 7 41 \ 1743: 3 7 83 \ 1760: 2 2 2 2 2 5 11 \ 1840: 2 2 2 2 5 23 \ factor: `1920\n' is not a valid positive integer
23:00:40 <oerjan> `run echo -n "1600,1680,1722,1743,1760,1840,1920" | xargs -d, -n 1 factor
23:00:42 <HackEgo> 1600: 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 \ 1680: 2 2 2 2 3 5 7 \ 1722: 2 3 7 41 \ 1743: 3 7 83 \ 1760: 2 2 2 2 2 5 11 \ 1840: 2 2 2 2 5 23 \ 1920: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 5
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23:02:31 <oerjan> looks like several of them are multiples of 21
23:02:33 <fizzie> I'm going to go ahead and suspect it had 83 tracks and 21 sectors/track.
23:03:54 <fizzie> (Because the standard 1440 comes from 80*18.)
23:05:36 -!- atehwa has joined.
23:06:41 <oerjan> > [1660 == 80*20, 1680 == 80*21, 1722 == 82*21, 1743 == 83*21, 1760 == 80*22, 1840 == 80*23, 1920 == 80*24]
23:06:43 <lambdabot> [False,True,True,True,True,True,True]
23:06:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:06:55 <oerjan> > [1600 == 80*20, 1680 == 80*21, 1722 == 82*21, 1743 == 83*21, 1760 == 80*22, 1840 == 80*23, 1920 == 80*24]
23:06:56 <lambdabot> [True,True,True,True,True,True,True]
23:07:50 <Bike> huh, the seven rule is weird.
23:08:28 <oerjan> divisibility by seven?
23:08:30 <fizzie> > and [1600 == 80*20, 1680 == 80*21, 1722 == 82*21, 1743 == 83*21, 1760 == 80*22, 1840 == 80*23, 1920 == 80*24] -- OPTOMIZED FOR HUNAM PROCESSING OF OUTPUT
23:08:52 <Bike> oerjan: yeah, like the "add up the digits, if the sum is divisible by three it is" rule for three
23:09:12 <oerjan> the thing is, that works because 3 divides 10-1
23:09:29 <oerjan> and the rule for 11 works because 11 divides 10+1 (duh)
23:09:45 -!- atehwa has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:09:46 <oerjan> the rules for 2 and 5 work because they divide 10
23:09:49 <Bike> so what you're saying is we need more octal
23:10:00 <oerjan> but 7 doesn't divide anything before 1001 afair
23:12:42 <Bike> imo should be 141, just to make sevens more unique
23:13:08 <olsner> and n/7 for non-multiples of 7 are all rotations of 285714
23:13:38 <Sgeo> Last digit multiply by 2 subtract from rest test that for div by 7
23:15:13 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:15:50 <Bike> ugh can't you at least yell at me or something
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23:16:21 <elliott> Bike: FUCK FUCK SHIT SHIT FUCK
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23:42:16 * Sgeo has a feeling Gregor would agree with it
23:42:17 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/17hz0y/git_ui_is_a_nightmare_of_mixed_metaphors/
23:42:36 <kmc> yeah the git UI is awful
23:42:46 <kmc> but the data model is elegant and the tools compose
23:42:47 <kmc> it's like UNIX
23:42:57 <kmc> except the UNIX data model is not actually elegant
23:43:34 <ais523> the data model is broken in git
23:43:50 <ais523> see: any #esoteric discussion about scapegoat
23:44:00 <ais523> I like breaking broken data models down to "the simplest thing you can't do"
23:44:14 <kmc> what's scapegoat?
23:44:16 <ais523> in git, that's pulling some but not all patches from an upstream branch
23:44:35 <ais523> and scapegoat is a VCS (which #acehack have branded "the #esoteric VCS"), which nobody has made a serious attempt at writing
23:44:55 <kmc> you can do that easily, but you lose the link between the upstream patches and your patches
23:44:59 <ais523> but the basic concepts, we've got down
23:45:23 <ais523> kmc: no, you can diff and apply patches (and there's a command to do that automatically)
23:45:28 <ais523> this isn't the same as tracking upstream if it's not linear
23:45:44 <kmc> you can rebase preserving merges, although it is pretty nasty
23:45:58 <ais523> yeah, and I don't want to do all this manual work
23:46:12 <ais523> darcs gets this particular problem right, incidentally, although it fails on others
23:46:13 <kmc> anyway i wouldn't say that the Git data model is 'broken'; of course there are some things it doesn't support well, but it provides a pretty good ratio of power to complexity
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23:47:16 <ais523> basically the problem is that it has no concept of anything but snapshots
23:47:23 <ais523> it doesn't understand the notion of a change
23:47:28 <ais523> and so has to run crazy merging algorithms each time
23:47:47 <kmc> opinions differ on whether this is a good or a bad thing
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23:48:00 <kmc> it makes it much easier to understand what you actually have in your repository and how it relates to other stuff
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23:48:50 <kmc> which helps when your UI is broken
23:48:57 <kmc> perhaps if Git's UI were better, it could support a more complex data model
23:53:11 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
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23:54:19 <Bike> Why did they pick that name, anyway?
23:56:22 <Bike> No, I mean the category theorists.
23:57:57 <RodgerTheGreat> because category theory is a ruse to overload normal words and combinations of everyday prefixes and suffixes with complex and arcane meanings
23:58:11 <Bike> I thought that was math generally.
23:58:52 <RodgerTheGreat> not generally to the extent that category theory and other forms of abstract algebra do
23:59:12 <Bike> no i'm sure we'll never run into issues with "group"