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00:34:31 <kmc> what's the /topic program? SUBLEQ interpreter or something?
00:34:47 <kmc> or is it actually a linux rootkit? *fucked*
00:39:12 <pikhq> Looks to be a SUBLEQ interpreter, yeah.
00:41:28 <ais523> can something be a linux rootkit for qnx?
00:41:37 <ais523> I guess it could be a program that roots qnx if you run it on Linux
00:42:08 <TeruFSX> or a rootkit that runs on a linux kernel modified to run at the same time as qnx
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00:42:39 <kmc> maybe you can build UML for QNX
00:42:50 <kmc> HackEgo's shameful secret
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00:43:24 <kmc> apparently blackberry OS is based on QNX?
00:43:28 <kmc> nobody told me
00:45:46 <TeruFSX> previous versions are not.
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01:39:33 <Bike> more inappropriate haskell questions: is "main" a standard thing or what because I can't find it
01:41:49 <pikhq> Bike: Yes: "main" is the Haskell entry point, just like main is the C entry point.
01:42:06 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch5.html#x11-980005
01:42:09 <Bike> "A Haskell program is a collection of modules, one of which, by convention, must be called Main and must export the value main" aha
01:42:50 <oerjan> (there's a flag to call it something else, naturally >:) )
01:43:02 <Bike> a standard flag?
01:43:05 <oerjan> (mostly intented for running test suites and the like)
01:48:22 <oerjan> hm has Taneb revealed his email...
01:48:59 <Bike> elliott i don't think taneb is even a real tld are you lying
01:51:42 <oerjan> oh there is an email on his webpage
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02:05:19 <oerjan> @tell Taneb I sent an email to your gmail account.
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02:22:06 <kmc> lecture went well
02:22:10 <kmc> the crabputer was a crowd pleaser
02:22:29 <kmc> thanks Bike
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02:23:22 <madbr> trying to design a "trace CPU"
02:23:23 <Bike> crabputers know what's hip
02:24:31 <madbr> like, instead of just executing the code
02:24:59 <madbr> it allocates a new execution unit (ALU, multiplier, etc...) for each instruction
02:25:27 <madbr> once it reaches a loop, it just lets data stream through the already allocated units
02:27:51 <kmc> are there any really good tracing JITs for VLIW architectures
02:27:57 <kmc> that could be kind of an approximation of that
02:28:06 <kmc> where's my V8 for itanium =( =( =(
02:32:57 <Sgeo> Is it reasonable to look at a language mostly because of its implications for how one would structure a program written in it
02:33:57 <Sgeo> Haskell tends to imply a certain structure (IO layer using non-IO layer)
02:34:09 <Sgeo> So, why not try to get a grasp of how Erlang programs are structured
02:34:13 <Sgeo> I still don't understand it :/
02:35:15 <madbr> kmc: it's kinda scary how VLIW architectures tend to bomb :o
02:35:53 <kmc> Sgeo have you seen Erlang: The Movie
02:36:50 <Sgeo> I think part of it, I don't remember if I've seen the whole thing. If I have, I don't remember it
02:36:54 <Sgeo> I know I've heard of it
02:37:12 <kmc> i think erlang programs involve lots of small concurrent agents which interact through semi ad-hoc algebraic-data-ish protocols
02:37:13 <Sgeo> It's kind of ... dry and old, isn't it?
02:37:45 <kmc> one point of it being dynamically typed is that you can restart small parts independently from each other
02:38:15 <Sgeo> Not sure that dynamic typing is a requirement for that
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02:38:18 <kmc> harder to migrate a distributed system piecemeal if your protocols are very rigid
02:38:30 <kmc> it's not a requirement but it makes things easier
02:38:34 * elliott doesn't think that argument makes much sense
02:38:43 <elliott> but I guess I would say that all protocols are rigid
02:38:45 <kmc> anyway i don't know erlang
02:38:51 <elliott> it is just a question of how much your code acknowledges that fact
02:39:34 <madbr> I'd like to see more languages structured like zzt-oop (or megazeux's "robotic")
02:39:38 <Bike> all protocols are rigid but their implementations are crazed nuttiness?
02:39:47 <Bike> zzt, isn't that something for games
02:40:10 <shachaf> zomg moreutils has /usr/bin/errno -l?
02:40:24 <madbr> bike : so it would probably work well for GUI
02:40:57 <Bike> «Note the use of an invisible "timer" object to send a periodical ShootDownward message to the Shooter.» man this reminds me of game maker
02:41:01 <Bike> i'm... not sure if that's a good thing
02:41:13 <Sgeo> "They are neither operating system processes nor operating system threads, but lightweight processes[citation needed]."
02:41:22 <Sgeo> 1+1=2[citation needed]
02:42:20 <Bike> Sgeo: principia mathematica, done
02:42:29 <lambdabot> "are threads like monoids? I love monoids"
02:42:45 <shachaf> monqy: i didn't write monoidize.......................................
02:42:51 <Sgeo> > monoidize "monoids"
02:42:54 <lambdabot> "are monoids like monoids? I love monoids"
02:43:02 <monqy> no..............................
02:43:12 <lambdabot> "is monqy like monoids? I love monoids"
02:43:17 <shachaf> "ok maybe thats enough....."
02:43:17 <madbr> mostly, they have very simple languages yet they're fairly usable actually
02:43:27 <Sgeo> > monoidize "people"
02:43:30 <lambdabot> "is people like monoids? I love monoids"
02:43:33 <madbr> megazeux didn't have any functions or even subroutines
02:43:43 <madbr> or objects/structs
02:44:03 <monqy> but i sure said @undefine
02:44:04 <Bike> madbr: if i'm reading the zzt-oop article right it has objects?
02:44:50 <shachaf> monqy: "thats what @undefining is"
02:44:55 <kmc> shachaf: nice re errno
02:45:01 <kmc> <3 moreutils
02:45:22 <shachaf> kmc: I've spent way too much time hunting down the lesser-known errno mappings in some cases.
02:45:39 <shachaf> I mean e.g. pretty-printed message to number.
02:46:21 <kmc> there's at least one errno that can only be produced by a single point in the Linux kernel
02:47:00 <oerjan> each and every ievement
02:48:29 <shachaf> kmc: I came to the conclusion that mkaing an MD5 collision under those constraints would be hard.
02:48:48 <Bike> kmc: what is it?
02:49:14 <oerjan> `olist #I don't think shachaf was here when I did this
02:50:22 <monqy> is this the super mega list
02:51:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: smlist: not found
02:51:46 <shachaf> Someone should just echo echo `/names` > bin/smlist
02:51:55 <shachaf> Because who wouldn't want to read super mega comics?
02:52:15 <Bike> hm does irssi have interpolation like that i wonder
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03:05:03 <madbr> bike: objects? yes and no
03:05:20 <madbr> it has objects but objects can't store any data
03:05:35 <madbr> each object has its own code
03:05:45 <madbr> and it runs once per frame
03:06:25 <madbr> and when it runs it essentially keeps running until it reaches a command that has a pause in it
03:06:47 <madbr> such as "wait 1" (megazeux, zzt-oop has an equivalent)
03:07:02 <madbr> and then next frame it continues from there
03:07:13 <madbr> so they're really kindof like cooperative threads
03:07:33 <madbr> also objects are part of the tile map and the player can't go through them
03:20:42 <kmc> Bike: http://livegrep.com/search?q=ETOOMANYREFS
03:20:49 <kmc> it's in the UNIX socket garbage collector >_<
03:21:47 <kmc> and yeah it was a bit ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED when i wrote code which hit this error
03:25:00 <Bike> "Too many references: cannot splice" informative
03:26:57 <kmc> shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l
03:28:28 <kmc> Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer
03:29:06 <kmc> Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler
03:29:29 <kmc> "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs" i think that was in the Ring Cycle
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03:39:12 <Bike> there was a bot in another channel such that we had it send arbitrary CTCPs with its echo command
03:39:33 <TwilightSpockle> Yeah, you could do that with HackEgo until somebody whinged about it.
03:40:08 <elliott> (you should put that back)
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05:27:17 -!- kmc has set topic: char*a,b[9999];main(){gets(a=b);while(*a){a+=(b[*a]-=b[a[1]])?3:a[2];}puts(b+1);} | fiat luxembourg http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:35:55 <quintopia> kmc: what does that program do mannnnnn
05:36:08 <quintopia> it cant be the shortest missing subscript
05:37:09 <elliott> nobody can avoid the aim hecking
05:44:27 <kmc> it's a SUBLEQ interpreter or similar
05:44:31 <kmc> so it was said
05:44:36 <kmc> i didnot invent it
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06:05:48 <elliott> shachaf: It's official now.
06:05:59 <shachaf> It's actually not official.
06:06:16 <shachaf> I think the configuration file is the office.
06:07:07 <Bike> seven hundred and sixty one armless and legless corpses
06:07:24 <shachaf> Bike: do you love monoids yet
06:08:14 <Bike> there will be no love, except for love of monoids
06:10:01 <monqy> btw congratulations shachaf
06:10:31 <Bike> congratulations!!!
06:11:04 <monqy> what are you going to do with this new “power„
06:12:29 <shachaf> maybe rule with an "iron fist"
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06:13:15 <Bike> rule with a fencyclidine fist
06:13:27 <Bike> wow that was some shitty spelling
06:14:09 <HackEgo> clohg: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
06:24:02 <Sgeo> Of course it is mandatory for me to join #ehsohtehrihc on Freenode
06:24:28 <Sgeo> `cat wehlcohme
06:24:31 <HackEgo> cat: wehlcohme: No such file or directory
06:24:33 <Bike> `run echo "esoteric" | ?hh
06:24:36 <Sgeo> `cat bin/wehlcohme
06:24:47 <Bike> `run echo "esoteric" | h
06:24:57 <Sgeo> `run echo "char*a,b[9999];main(){gets(a=b);while(*a){a+=(b[*a]-=b[a[1]])?3:a[2];}puts(b+1);} | fiat luxembourg http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/" | h
06:25:00 <HackEgo> chahr*a,b[9999];maihn(){gehts(a=b);whihle(*a){a+=(b[*a]-=b[a[1]])?3:a[2];}puhts(b+1);} | fiaht luhxehmbouhrg http://cohdu.ohrg/lohgs/_ehsohtehrihc/
06:42:04 <kmc> the Y combinator has a similar structure to a typical quine
06:42:11 <kmc> they're based on the same trick of implicit self-reference
06:42:27 <kmc> as is the proof by contradiction of the undecidability of the halting problem
06:42:33 <kmc> so that's fun
06:43:08 <Bike> what about kleene recursion
06:56:47 <kmc> kind of mentioned that too but not really
06:57:09 <kmc> you need it to do the halting proof in full rigor
06:57:43 <Bike> diagonalization?
06:57:52 <kmc> what about it?
06:58:10 <Bike> is that what you mean by "full rigor"
06:58:34 <Bike> personally i just like the intuitive loop scooper thing but that's not as useful...
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07:01:59 <kmc> well in this lecture i just went with the good old (define (f x) (if (halts? x x) (loop-forever) 0))
07:02:27 <kmc> i think, if you want to do that proof in full rigor on turing machines specifically, you need kleene's recursion theorem
07:02:30 <kmc> not sure though, it's been a while
07:02:37 <Bike> @google scooping the loop snooper
07:02:40 <lambdabot> http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/loopsnoop.html
07:02:40 <lambdabot> Title: Scooping the Loop Snooper — Geoffrey K. Pullum
07:03:06 <Bike> hm, i don't think i've actually read turing's original paper.
07:03:07 <kmc> i did talk about diagonalization but not specifically about halting, just showing that the set of functions is uncountable while the set of programs is countable
07:03:26 <Bike> actually just about the only turing i've read is the test paper. that's probably not good
07:03:33 <kmc> yeah that article is great
07:03:42 <Bike> my favorite part is the ESP speculation
07:03:43 <kmc> Bike: did you like the part where he speculates about beating the turing test using ESP
07:04:00 <Bike> i just imagine singulatarians reading it dumbfounded
07:04:30 <kmc> i think nobody is quite sure if he was joking or not
07:05:06 <Bike> i read a nice article on turing's article from a lit perspective once
07:05:16 <Bike> guy thought turing was a pretty funny guy overall
07:05:56 <Bike> ...i can never find it again when i want it, though.
07:05:56 <kmc> heh, that sounds interesting
07:06:08 <kmc> did you see the article about how maybe turing didn't kill himself on purpose
07:06:22 <Bike> no, i've heard rumors about that however
07:06:33 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18561092
07:06:38 <Bike> http://www.furtherfield.org/features/articles/why-arent-we-reading-turing here we go
07:07:43 <kmc> huh, i didn't know he wrote about the chemical basis of morphogenesis
07:07:55 <kmc> that's cool
07:08:03 <Bike> oh yeah there was a bit of news stuff about that last year when they actually found some turing morphogens
07:10:06 <kmc> is it numberwang? we'll have to check with the boffins.
07:11:04 <Bike> "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next." one can only hope he meant "genius" and not "teh ghey"
07:11:21 <elliott> saying "what if it wasn't suicide??" seems to have an uncomfortable whiff of downplaying the awful treatment turing was going through at the time to me
07:11:49 <kmc> elliott: the article i linked doesn't downplay it really
07:12:22 <kmc> it's more like "what if he had the strength to endure awful treatment in relatively good spirits"
07:12:30 <kmc> i mean if the facts stated are true, we will never know if it was suicide or not
07:12:41 <Bike> elliott: the professor made a point of saying "no this was still horrible"
07:12:50 <kmc> it shouldn't affect whether the treatment was unjust or the legacy of his life before his death
07:13:52 <Bike> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/newsevents/news/newsrecords/2012/02Feb/Scientists-prove-Turings-tiger-stripe-theory-.aspx it is apparently impossible to find the actual goddamn paper
07:14:56 <kmc> speaking of the classics, it's funny that Gödel never got around to publishing part 2 of the paper on incompleteness
07:15:00 <kmc> because part 1 was such a bombshell
07:15:23 <Bike> you've seen his letter to von neumann, right?
07:15:25 <kmc> i also think it's kind of weird that all this theory developed in super abstract form just a decade or so before people started building actual computers
07:15:29 <kmc> don't think so
07:16:03 <Bike> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/the-gdel-letter/ "hey i heard your sick but whatever let me talk about proofs"
07:17:16 <Bike> haha he even mentions type theory as foundational
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07:18:38 <Bike> "ramified" is still the silliest goddamn word
07:18:51 <kmc> yeah type theory is an alternative to set theory, or something
07:19:00 <kmc> not sure if it's exactly the same thing programmers mean by 'type theory'
07:19:42 <Bike> well i mean the math. people do that as foundational nowadays.
07:19:50 <Bike> not that that has much to do with ramified types any more.
07:29:57 <kmc> going to bed tho
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07:52:02 <Taneb> @tell oerjan Thanks for your Fueue fix!
07:53:39 <Taneb> Anyway, the balloons have returned
07:53:39 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:53:52 <Bike> happy birthday!!
07:54:02 <Taneb> Turns out they didn't come for me
07:54:05 <Taneb> I am still only 18
07:54:29 <Bike> ugh, that's such a shitty age though.
07:54:44 <Taneb> It's my mum's birthday
07:55:03 <Bike> wait i thought you said that if you were fifty you'd be older than your parents
07:56:03 <Taneb> That was yesterday
07:56:53 <Taneb> Explain the meaning of your "hi"
07:57:46 <shachaf> (here in america there aren't any mums)
07:58:07 <Bike> There are mumps though.
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09:17:11 <shachaf> @ask zzo38 What about newtype Foo b s a r = Foo (Either b (s, a -> r)); CodensityAsk (Foo b s a) t?
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10:01:31 <Sgeo> http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/41195269567/theres-no-such-thing
10:01:54 <Sgeo> One particular xkcd comes to mind
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11:13:34 <shachaf> Hmm, #haskell-lens is bigger than #esoteric
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11:25:37 <Sgeo> "Let's imagine that utilities are radioactive; If we are careful with out containment procedures, we can safely combine and compare them, but if we interact with an unshielded utility, it's over, we've committed a type error."
11:25:45 <Sgeo> oh god utilities are monads
11:25:51 <Sgeo> (note: utilities probably not monads)
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12:14:50 <Jafet> unsafeNmap :: MonadIO m => m Utility -> m ()
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15:58:26 <nortti> can anyone ping nortti.dy.fi now?
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16:22:59 <boily> nortti: what kind of server are you running? the only response header I get by visiting http://nortti.dy.fi/ is "Content-Type: text/html"
16:24:38 <nortti> boily: my own http server written in python
16:24:51 <nortti> boily: what is your exact request?
16:25:39 <boily> nortti: I tried firefox first, just to see if you had anything running, then raw telnet to get a pretty list of all headers.
16:25:54 <boily> (and I admit running a fast nmap against your domain.)
16:26:00 <nortti> what is the request you used with telnet
16:26:29 <nortti> oh, that's ok. I used to have "run nmap here if you want to test it" on my homepage
16:26:30 <boily> telnet nortti.dy.fi 80, then GET / HTTP/1.1.
16:26:58 <nortti> what kind of line terminator?
16:27:19 <boily> eeeeh... I hope CR+LF, but probably only LF.
16:27:30 <boily> I can see your stub web page just fine, too.
16:28:04 <nortti> do you have your telent in char or in line mode?
16:28:23 <boily> no idea. bog standard vanilla telnet on my machine.
16:28:37 <nortti> what os your machine runs?
16:28:57 <boily> arch linux, Linux njorun 3.7.5-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Mon Jan 28 10:03:32 CET 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux.
16:29:06 <nortti> have you tried netcat?
16:30:43 <boily> same behaviour with netcat: echo -e "GET / HTTP/1.1\r\n\r\n" | nc nortti.dy.fi 80
16:31:07 <boily> by the way, telnet (GNU inetutils) 1.9.1 and GNU netcat 0.7.1.
16:31:34 <nortti> so you only see the headers?
16:31:49 <nortti> and not the page itself=
16:31:51 <boily> oh, no. I was just wondering what was the webserver and stuff and anything.
16:31:59 <boily> the pages renders correctly.
16:32:09 <boily> s/pages/page/, as I only saw a single page for now.
16:32:14 <nortti> oh. then it works just as it shoudl
16:33:09 <nortti> I tried to make it compatible with normaly used subset of HTTP 1.0
16:34:29 <nortti> boily: in case you are interested these files are available: foo.txt mcsnapshot strace_failed_config.log index.html os_cars.html
16:35:33 <boily> playing with slitaz?
16:35:42 <nortti> using it as my main os
16:36:50 <nortti> well slitaz 3.0 with all kind of crap put on top of it like toybox and my own coreutils replacing parts of busybox, pkgsrc and jpkg package managers and a lot of hand compiled stuff
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17:16:06 <kmc> programming is a combination of mentally challenging and tedious
17:16:27 <kmc> plus some people like things like being outside or interacting with humans in person
17:16:31 <kmc> and would rather spend free time on that
17:17:37 <TwilightSpockle> All I'm hearing is that people like to fritter their potential away on completely nonproductive uses of time.
17:17:37 <kmc> "hacker" communities have a huge amount of prejudice against people who don't spend every waking hour thinking about programming
17:17:52 <kmc> i think it's largely unfounded
17:17:59 <kmc> http://geekfeminism.org/2013/01/21/re-post-hiring-based-on-hobbies-effective-or-exclusive/
17:18:09 <kmc> "I’ve seen other people imply that there’s something even morally suspect about somebody working an engineering job just for the money, and that someone who doesn’t do the same stuff in their free time is obviously just in it for the money. Of course, that’s classist. It’s easier to feel like you’re motivated by the sheer love of your work if you don’t really need the money."
17:18:36 <kmc> TwilightSpockle: oh yeah because writing the 2,000th toy Lisp interpreter or Python webapp framework nobody will ever use is so productive
17:18:52 <kmc> anyway i think you're trolling
17:19:16 <kmc> glad that's settled then
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17:45:26 <tswett> I propose that we use the prefix "wyo-" to denote the fixed point of a word.
17:45:33 <tswett> So that, for example, a wyopicture is a picture of a wyopicture.
17:46:16 <tswett> Wyothinking is the act of thinking about wyothinking.
17:48:53 <tswett> A wyoprinter is something that prints a wyoprinter. So, a quine is a type of wyoprinter.
17:50:50 <shachaf> Some people just love monoids, Phantom_Hoover.
17:53:11 <shachaf> it's not easy being a monoid :(
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17:57:58 <Phantom_Hoover> someone explain this monoid thing shachaf has developed, for god's sake
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18:05:13 <tswett> shachaf developed a monoid thing?
18:05:27 -!- noam has joined.
18:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, yes, he developed a condition where he inexplicably brings monoids up all the time.
18:07:46 <boily> but I like monoids. they are ea... NOOOOOOOOOO! I think it's contagious!
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18:12:28 <cuttlefish> Look for it first where you'd most like to find it.
18:13:32 <boily> hm. hoping to get useful guidance from a fortune DB is like trying to find a needle in a wyohaystack.
18:18:03 <boily> Phantom_Hoover's method to find a needle in a wyohaystack: 1. Remove all empty space; 2. Whatever isn't empty in what's left is a needle
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18:21:34 <boily> `learn wyohaystack is that which hasn't been sifted for emptiness yet. Easily needled.
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18:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> if you allow the -irth form to be used as a gerundive you can express a contradiction pretty easily
18:23:45 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You should encourage Sgeo to learn Ada.
18:23:49 <shachaf> He's been giving up on it.
18:24:30 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: wyohaystackirth?
18:24:59 <Bike> whyohaystacksearchirth
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18:27:36 <boily> and its French cognate, ouaillohéstaqueseurtchirtant.
18:28:08 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know, maybe it is obviously a joke here
18:28:17 <kmc> on Hacker News such things are said in apparent seriousness
18:28:20 <kmc> but poe's law etc
18:28:47 <kmc> monoid's law
18:28:49 <kmc> also hichaf
18:29:06 <shachaf> hellogan international airport
18:29:14 <elliott> kmc: did shachaf tell you ~the news~
18:29:19 <elliott> (i'm saying he's pregnant)
18:29:21 <kmc> what is the news
18:29:29 <elliott> he's pregnant with #haskell ophood
18:29:29 <kmc> congratschaf
18:29:42 <kmc> http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=kmc
18:30:21 <kmc> 'The term "coleslaw" arose in the eighteenth century as an Anglicisation of the Dutch term "koolsla", a shortening of "koolsalade", which means "cabbage salad"'
18:30:31 <boily> in the space of about 2 minutes, I'm now completely confused. I love Fridays.
18:30:32 <kmc> 'koolsalade'
18:31:09 <kmc> sauerkraut is better
18:31:13 <boily> here you can buy bright neon nite-glo aggressive toxic green coleslaw in small plasting containers.
18:31:17 <Bike> dutch always sounds like that
18:31:28 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of LC_ALL=de_DE.UTF-8 errno -l
18:31:43 <shachaf> When I run it I just see English. :-(
18:31:49 <kmc> try having more locales
18:32:02 <shachaf> can i just get a globale and have it done with
18:32:34 <impomatic> Is there a better way to do this regex? ((mul|add|sub)(\.i|\.f|\.x)?) I just watch to match and return mul mul.i mul.f mul.x add add.i add.f .... etc
18:32:40 <kmc> shachaf_SHACHAF.UTF-8
18:33:00 <kmc> impomatic: you could factor the dot out
18:33:23 <kmc> oh but you want the .f .i etc to be optional?
18:33:53 <kmc> then it would be like ((mul_add_sub)(\.(i|f|x))?) which is kinda ugly
18:34:06 <kmc> pretend those underscores are bars
18:34:58 <impomatic> I'm writing a JavaScript syntax highlighter for Redcode :-)
18:34:58 <Bike> ((mul|add|sub)(\.i|\.f|\.x)?) seems perfect to me
18:35:08 <kmc> yeah it's fine
18:35:30 <kmc> oh I guess (i|f|x) could also be [ifx]
18:35:36 <impomatic> Thanks... never used regular expressions before.
18:35:42 <kmc> not a biggie though
18:35:52 <kmc> impomatic: congrats then :)
18:36:06 <Bike> ((mul|add|sub)(\.[ifx])?)
18:36:56 <shachaf> kmc: I'd install a funpuns locale.
18:37:30 <kmc> how about an anagrams locale for error messages
18:37:41 <Bike> just to make linux harder to understand
18:39:34 <elliott> kmc: I don't even have an errno(1).
18:39:39 <kmc> install moreutils
18:39:45 <kmc> moreutils is the greatest
18:39:49 <kmc> bow down before moreutils
18:40:00 <impomatic> Now I need to figure out to to not exclude any matches preceded by a semicolon
18:40:04 <kmc> but then you'll have 'parallel' and 'ts' and 'sponge'!
18:40:04 <shachaf> moreutils is "rly good" elliott
18:40:23 <shachaf> remember the time when you first found out about moreutils
18:40:29 <shachaf> it's just man page after man page of greatness
18:40:48 <coppro> sponge is the only really great one
18:40:57 <kmc> 'parallel' is very handy
18:41:06 <kmc> though xargs can almost do the same thing
18:41:06 <shachaf> xargs can do that, though.
18:41:37 <coppro> sl is the best unix utility
18:41:53 <shachaf> Copyright 2006 by Joey Hess <joey@kitenet.net>
18:42:05 <kmc> mm ls typos
18:42:19 <kmc> i admin'd a server once where if you typed 'lsd' it would open the TiHKAL page about LSD inside links
18:42:38 <shachaf> The best thing about Ubuntu is that it has the "command-not-found" handler such that when you type ls, it waits a couple of seconds anyway.
18:42:47 <shachaf> Even if it's not installed.
18:42:52 <Phantom_Hoover> counterpoint: moreutils' favicon is esr's stupid glider emblem thing
18:42:57 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :(
18:44:48 <elliott> well I am pretty sure esr was just a loudmouth rather than a self-admitted awful racist loudmouth when that emblem was popularised
18:44:54 <elliott> less bad than it could be???
18:45:04 <kmc> it's also just a dumb idea though
18:45:16 <kmc> hackers aren't already enough of an elitist cult, we need a logo to be smug about too
18:46:26 <shachaf> Which phase would you prefer?
18:48:20 <shachaf> I was afraid you'd say that.
18:48:32 <shachaf> It sounds like you're just wrong here.
18:49:15 <shachaf> Don't be wrong, Phantom_Hoover.
18:49:23 <shachaf> I'm trying to save your soul here.
18:49:52 <kmc> http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~rcarrete/teaching/M-596_patt/images/glider.gif so which one is better here
18:50:30 <shachaf> 1/3 are just is that even a glider??
18:50:56 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think about HighLife
18:51:05 <kmc> "i don't like life, it's too mainstream"
18:51:21 <shachaf> kmc: that's just normal life for me, man
18:51:29 <Bike> hackers are pentacellular protists that can't do anything but plod along in one direction, and die when they hit the slightest resistance
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18:51:48 <kmc> mm protists
18:52:06 <kmc> shachaf: the LED sign that i programmed uses HighLife on a projective plane
18:52:33 <boily> exploding protists high on life?
18:52:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (fun fact, you can turn the highlife replicator into an n-length spaceship by tacking a traffic light to one end)
18:52:44 <kmc> the rule is similar enough to Life that it looks the same, except the probability of getting various still-lifes is different
18:53:11 <elliott> Day & Night is the coolest CA imo
18:53:28 <kmc> also I programmed it to spawn gliders occasionally, to keep the world from settling into a boring state
18:53:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are you with me
18:54:13 <shachaf> kmc: did you also use the monster all the time in simcity
18:54:28 <kmc> i was kind of wondering how the poisson rate of glider generation affects the entropy over time of the system
18:54:31 <elliott> kmc: instead of gliders it sohuld have spawned replicators
18:54:42 <Bike> shachaf: who didn't?
18:54:42 <kmc> whether there's a specific best rate for interesting patterns, or whether lots of different rates are roughly equivalent
18:55:03 <shachaf> Bike: Causing various disasters is the only thing I remember about SimCity.
18:55:24 <kmc> since it wraps around, if you spawn gliders on an empty plane they will live forever until they hit something
18:55:25 <boily> the most bestest CA is wireworld.
18:55:51 <kmc> so i hypothesize that there's some natural feedback between the complexity of existing patterns and the ability of created gliders to add complexity
18:55:54 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: that's a fun fact
18:56:00 <Bike> i like von neumann's because it's so ridiculous
18:58:26 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pixel_golly.gif efficient
19:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if anyone's gotten around to building a true replicator in Life
19:02:40 <shachaf> imo the most bestest CA is the one everyone should live in
19:02:51 <shachaf> and monqy already lives in??
19:05:01 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.argentum.freeserve.co.uk/lex_u.htm#universalconstructor yeah
19:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> since then someone gave an explicit pattern for something that's almost, but not quite, a true replicator
19:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> http://b3s23life.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/replicator-redux.html
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19:08:13 <shachaf> welcome to our little channel
19:08:31 <shachaf> #haskell-lens was bigger than #esoteric earlier
19:09:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:09:26 <shachaf> I think Phantom_Hoover might be right.
19:09:53 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:10:41 <oerjan> now to go see what i was answering ->
19:18:11 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l <kmc> Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer <kmc> Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler <kmc> "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs" i think that was in the Ring Cycle
19:18:15 <HackEgo> 946) <kmc> shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l <kmc> Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer <kmc> Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler <kmc> "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs" i think that was in the Ring Cycle
19:19:54 <oerjan> <Bike> there was a bot in another channel such that we had it send arbitrary CTCPs with its echo command
19:20:09 <oerjan> ^ctcp ACTION can do that too
19:20:24 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list
19:21:46 <oerjan> i guess ^ctcp wasn't saved.
19:22:57 <fungot> I think you mean @tell instead?
19:23:11 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
19:23:21 <fungot> +2[[<+7[-<+7>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<-2.[-]<]+4[->+8<]>.[-]>>[-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>-8>+>[->+>+<2]+>>[<2->>[-]]<2[>+<-]>[-<+>]<4-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<3]
19:24:13 <oerjan> ^reverb verily brevity
19:24:13 <fungot> vveerriillyy bbrreevviittyy
19:25:13 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
19:25:17 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
19:46:17 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list
19:46:42 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
19:46:49 <fizzie> That's probably what ^ul used to be.
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19:54:38 <fizzie> I don't quite see the point of that.
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20:03:27 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Have you considered /nick Fandom_Hoover
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20:05:33 <oerjan> <elliott> Day & Night is the coolest CA imo <-- yes!
20:05:50 <elliott> I'm glad someone understands me.
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20:29:41 <ais523> hardest part about Windows development: getting used to the difference between ls and dir
20:29:53 <ais523> and then getting back to ls again when you're going back to Linux again
20:30:02 <ais523> perhaps I should just install a ls for Windows
20:32:43 <oerjan> elliott: ais523: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=1mpr0mp2&curid=3430&diff=35321&oldid=20650
20:33:27 <ais523> do you want me to delete it from recent changes?
20:33:32 <ais523> or just revert it and block the user?
20:33:43 <oerjan> yeah otherwise i'd undone it myself
20:34:10 <ais523> OK, I deleted it from recent changes too
20:34:53 <ais523> I wonder if it's a bot who beat the CAPTCHA, or a human CAPTCHA solver
20:35:23 <kmc> just install cygwin
20:35:43 <ais523> avoiding cygwin is part of the point of the exercise
20:35:47 <kmc> my favorite way to solve CAPTCHAs is to run your own free porn site which is protected by other people's CAPTCHAs
20:36:09 <ais523> also, it's hard to install cygwin without an internet connection
20:38:08 <zzo38> Do you know of some C program to use with SDL, to play .NSF (including all expansions) and other formats, with the function to play audio, pause audio, and poke data into the VM?
20:38:08 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:38:12 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 11h 21m 3s ago: What about newtype Foo b s a r = Foo (Either b (s, a -> r)); CodensityAsk (Foo b s a) t?
20:46:46 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/\\`?': No such file or directory
20:51:38 <HackEgo> find: `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/wisdom': Permission denied \ Done.
20:51:58 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
20:53:15 <oerjan> ais523: that was a nasty effect, do you think i should put the a-r back?
20:53:40 <ais523> if it breaks hg, it's gregor's fault
20:54:42 <boily> HackEgo is smarter than I. it won't answer to its own output.
20:55:01 <zzo38> IRC clients don't receive their own output if not sent directly to themself.
20:55:12 <zzo38> (Some servers have an option to make it do anyways, but this is non-standard.)
20:55:27 <oerjan> @tell Gregor We did chmod a-r wisdom to prevent the rampant nickpinging when people ls'ed it... that apparently made `revert break for things inside it.
20:55:27 <zzo38> Also, HackEgo prefixes any message starting with a punctuation mark with a zero-width space.
20:56:08 <zzo38> If you have rampant nickpinging then it is rather the client which needs to be reconfigured.
20:56:29 <boily> sigh. my feeble plans have been foiled again.
20:57:20 <zzo38> If you send a message to a channel in IRC, you will not receive a copy of the message. If you send directly to yourself, though, then you will receive a copy of the message.
20:58:05 <c00kiemon5ter> irc clients are responsible for writing out their user's message
20:58:07 <oerjan> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/"As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead. "
20:58:09 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:58:31 <c00kiemon5ter> it is the same reason why bots don't know what they've written
20:58:32 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
20:58:53 <oerjan> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
20:58:54 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:59:05 <Taneb> --You need to close the quote
20:59:11 <Taneb> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead."
20:59:12 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:59:22 <Taneb> That worked perfectly
20:59:37 <oerjan> Taneb: my point was to pad it with spaces
20:59:42 <Taneb> Don't listen to me
20:59:54 <zzo38> I think you shouldn't add that. I think if you have problem with nick pinging that is the client that the user should reconfigure if they don't want that.
21:00:39 <oerjan> zzo38: people don't seem to agree with that.
21:00:54 <oerjan> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
21:00:56 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
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21:01:38 -!- j201 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 19.0/20130130080006]).
21:02:15 <oerjan> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
21:02:17 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
21:02:25 <oerjan> `echo run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
21:02:27 <HackEgo> run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
21:02:55 <oerjan> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead. '
21:02:56 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
21:03:05 <HackEgo> `? \ ? \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ $1? \ ais523 \ america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bike \ boily \ bonvenon \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ c \ cakeprophet \ california \ category \ claustrophobia \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ cyberiad \ devious \ d-module \ egobot \ ehird \ elliot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ endomorphis
21:03:12 <zzo38> oerjan: That is no excuse. If you don't want to follow the protocol, then don't use it.
21:03:43 <oerjan> zzo38: what? there is nothing in the protocol that says people shouldn't be pinged when their nick is mentioned. it is common practice.
21:04:25 <zzo38> There is nothing in the protocol that say people *should* be pinged when their nick is mentioned. If you want to, that is your choice to set up your client configured that way.
21:04:27 <oerjan> and adjusting it for the behavior of a single bot is unreasonable
21:05:08 <oerjan> zzo38: nickpinging is considered an annoyance on irc. that is a social rule, which is as much a part of irc as the protocol is.
21:05:21 <oerjan> *excessive nickpinging
21:05:53 <ais523> oerjan: one of the bots on another channel changes characters for similar-looking ones in order to avoid pinging people
21:06:11 <c00kiemon5ter> nickpinging is irrelevant to the protocol, it is a setting in your client
21:06:11 <zzo38> ais523: I think that is a bad idea!!
21:06:43 <zzo38> Since it prevents copy/paste from working properly!
21:06:49 <zzo38> There may be other solutions, though.
21:07:55 <zzo38> Such as use NOTICE messages. That *is* part of the protocol that you should use NOTICE messages to avoid auto-reply.
21:09:52 <Vorpal> zzo38, well yes, but most clients don't implement it like that
21:10:27 <zzo38> Then they are not following the protocol correctly. My client does follow the protocol and if yours doesn't, that is not my fault that is your fault.
21:10:29 <Vorpal> xchat for instance treat a channel notice as something thats highlights you
21:10:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, IRC is pretty much based on de facto standards these days
21:11:05 <Vorpal> most modern IRC stuff is not in any RFC
21:11:32 <Vorpal> like the 005 ISUPPORT line that tells you what modes and so on the server supports
21:11:35 <oerjan> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead. '
21:11:37 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
21:11:45 <Vorpal> only a de facto standard
21:11:51 <oerjan> i wonder what's wrong.
21:11:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, annoying spaces
21:12:08 <oerjan> `run echo "What it says." >wisdom/'As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead. '
21:12:09 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/As this directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead. : File name too long
21:12:10 <Vorpal> oerjan, I got an entire line of spaces at the end of your line and the end of HackEgo's line
21:12:12 <coppro> RFCs are not standards
21:12:17 <coppro> they are exactly what they say on the tin
21:12:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, what the hell is going on
21:12:23 <coppro> there is no single defined IRC protocol
21:12:25 <zzo38> Adding additional stuff which is optional, I think is OK though.
21:12:27 <coppro> oerjan: can't you do this in PM?
21:12:36 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm trying to create a very long filename in wisdom/ to hide the nicks
21:13:06 <oerjan> fine, i'm giving up, if people are going to complain in addition...
21:13:21 <Vorpal> also wtf, nix* should support that length of filenames
21:13:24 <coppro> oerjan: it was more of a suggestion to avoid complaints
21:13:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, and just do it in a pm
21:13:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, it wouldn't be annoying for you
21:13:55 <zzo38> coppro: There is no IRC protocol? Why do you say that? I use the IRC protocol.
21:14:02 <Vorpal> and it would be less annoying for everyone else
21:16:42 <coppro> zzo38: There is no standard for the IRC protocol
21:17:44 <zzo38> coppro: No, it is just that your client doesn't follow the standard.
21:17:56 <coppro> zzo38: Please provide me a copy of the standard
21:18:04 <coppro> as agreed to by implementers of it
21:18:14 <coppro> that means that an RFC is insufficient
21:18:19 <coppro> because an RFC does not define a standard
21:18:50 <zzo38> I know it says it doesn't define a standard
21:19:12 <zzo38> But still, the RFC is what I used to implement the client and the server
21:19:32 <zzo38> And anyways if you really think there is no standard, then the RFC should be as good as otherwise.
21:20:20 <zzo38> Some others have follow the RFC, too.
21:21:32 <zzo38> The RFC has SUMMON command but most IRC servers doesn't have such things, is one thing.
21:21:46 <zzo38> But it can be OK if it is not applicable to your computer.
21:22:40 <coppro> most implementations of IRC do not follow the RFCs
21:22:43 <oerjan> ok i tried some more, and failed for an entirely different reason: `ls wisdom sorts case-insensitively and ignores non-alphanum characters if there are any alphanum ones. so there is no way to get the message _first_. i guess i could pad with AAAAAA to get it nearly first.
21:23:06 <zzo38> coppro: I know they don't. But probably they should!
21:23:21 <coppro> nobody follows them because there's a bunch of shit in them
21:23:28 <Bike> is [ still lowercase { in irc
21:23:31 <c00kiemon5ter> if they did, we'd only have up to 9 letter nicks (iirc)
21:23:59 <kmc> `run echo '[{' | iconv -f iso646-fi
21:24:05 <zzo38> It is not extensions to the protocol I am complaining about, it is following the standard parts of the protocol wrongly, that I complain about.
21:25:05 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
21:25:17 <oerjan> coppro: hm that could actually work :P
21:25:28 <zzo38> Even extensions should follow the protocol as much as it applies, but, it doesn't! Such as the CS and NS commands which don't follow the protocol, it doesn't parse the parameters separated as the IRC protocol says, so that is the kings of things I am saying is wrong.
21:27:00 <oerjan> coppro: um i _do_ want ls to work if you don't use it on wisdom you know. which is a bit of a problem; how do you get a shell script to pass its _exact_ arguments to another command?
21:27:30 <kmc> if Scotland becomes an independent country, what will their ccTLD be
21:29:12 <oerjan> aha it's specially magic to work that way
21:30:22 <Bike> kmc: .ab for alba of course
21:32:25 <zzo38> What I mean by following the protocol, is that if both the client and server will send/receive things only according to the protocol, that it should work according to the protocol, and that any extensions follow according to the similar format to avoid confusion, although neither has to accept the extensions, since then it is a extended protocol instead.
21:32:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_top-level_domain
21:32:50 <kmc> .vlaanderen is probably the worst of these
21:32:52 <kmc> either that or .gay
21:33:14 <boily> kmc: we had our provincial prime minister visit scotland to help them with their independentist movement.
21:33:57 <Bike> what the hell is .eng supposed to be for...
21:34:08 <Bike> is it some kind of BNP thing
21:34:12 <zzo38> I propose some pseudo-TLDs such as .ipv6, .ipv4, .opts, .proc
21:34:47 <Bike> http://www.doteng.org/ right
21:34:56 <Bike> poor oppressed english
21:35:16 <zzo38> I don't know what is your opinion of pseudo-TLDs anyways?
21:38:43 <kmc> i don't even know how the BNP feels about the scottish and the welsh
21:39:00 <kmc> it is the British National Party and not the English National Party
21:39:07 <kmc> but don't expect racists to be terribly consistent
21:39:10 <ais523> there's an english national party too
21:39:12 <ais523> it's not nearly as insane
21:39:13 <Bike> i just meant, you know, whining
21:39:30 <boily> is .web the TLD equivalent of stumbling upon an AbstractFactoryBuilderManagerWrapperDecorator? can you get *more* vague than .web?
21:39:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:39:55 <kmc> i like .africa as well
21:39:59 <kmc> you know, the country of africa
21:40:02 <kmc> full of poor people and lions
21:40:13 <Bike> «.ln and .le - Currently being sold by Dennis Hope's "Lunar Embassy Commission" alongside .lunar, .moon, .venus, .mars, .jupiter, .saturn, .uranus, .neptune, .pluto, .space. People who purchase novelty deeds for outer space property from him are also given free domains.»
21:40:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:40:49 <boily> .le would make for nice French novelty domains. «www.mange-moi.le».
21:42:54 <zzo38> I don't really like protocol TLDs such as .mobi .web .gopher and so on.
21:43:07 <zzo38> I think they are not what TLDs are for.
21:43:27 <Bike> does anyone really use urls as intended, with schemas and all
21:43:28 <kmc> pest-control.gopher
21:44:01 <zzo38> Bike: I only use them with schemas and stuff like that
21:44:24 <zzo38> (That is, whatever parts are applicable.)
21:44:58 <Bike> England is again being treated as second class to Scotland and Wales - give England parity on the net
21:48:23 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:49:39 -!- trout has changed nick to constant.
21:50:14 <elliott> I am not a Nationalist by any means but this seems yet another case where the 53000000+ inhabitants of England are ignored. We should have the suffix.en. In other respects it's as if inhabitants of England should not have some pride in their Nation or not have the world to know they are an entity and have a voice hopefully for good.
21:51:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood).
21:52:08 -!- TwilightSpockle has changed nick to Gregor.
21:52:09 -!- Gregor has quit (Excess Flood).
21:52:22 -!- Gregor has joined.
21:52:46 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest56826.
21:58:33 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
21:58:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
21:58:54 <oerjan> (pretty easy to get around if you really want, of course)
21:59:07 <ais523> is .en currently used?
22:00:32 <Bike> Don't think so.
22:03:13 <kmc> `run ls wisdom | tr n-za-mN-ZA-M a-zA-Z
22:03:14 <HackEgo> Nf gur jvfqbz qverpgbel pbagnvaf znal svyrf anzrq nsgre avpxf, yvfgvat vg va choyvp naablf crbcyr. Gel `cnfgrjvfqbz vafgrnq.
22:03:29 <ais523> that's a rot-13 tr, right?
22:03:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:03:34 -!- cuttlefish has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:03:41 <ais523> IIRC there's some crazy golfed way to do rot13 which doesn't work on all punctuation marks
22:03:47 <kmc> `run /bin/ls wisdom | tr n-za-mN-ZA-M a-zA-Z
22:03:48 <HackEgo> `? \ ? \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ $1? \ nvf523 \ nzrevpn \ ngevd \ ngevk \ nhthe \ onanpu-gnefxv \ ovxr \ obvyl \ obairaba \ oenva \ oenvas**x \ oenvashpx \ oevpx \ ohezn \ p \ pnxrcebcurg \ pnyvsbeavn \ pngrtbel \ pynhfgebcubovn \ pbssrr \ pbzbanq \ pbcceb \ plorevnq \ qrivbhf \ q-zbqhyr \ rtbobg \ ruveq \ ryyvbg \ ryyvbgg \ raqbshapgbe \ raqbzbecuvf
22:03:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = wisdom -o "$1" = wisdom/ ]; \ then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; \ else exec /bin/ls "$@"; \ fi
22:04:03 <HackEgo> `? \ ? \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ $1? \ ais523 \ america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bike \ boily \ bonvenon \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ c \ cakeprophet \ california \ category \ claustrophobia \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ cyberiad \ devious \ d-module \ egobot \ ehird \ elliot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ endomorphis
22:04:17 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
22:04:21 <ais523> elliott: what does the second slash do?
22:04:28 <kmc> `addquote <augur> DIE <augur> oh hey elliott
22:04:31 <HackEgo> 947) <augur> DIE <augur> oh hey elliott
22:04:34 <elliott> coppro: what is the point of that
22:04:37 <ais523> it's ls that was changed
22:04:38 <coppro> elliott: express my rage
22:04:51 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `widsom/*': No such file or directory
22:04:57 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/*': No such file or directory
22:05:01 <kmc> `ls ./wisdom | tr -d a-z
22:05:02 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access ./wisdom | tr -d a-z: No such file or directory
22:05:07 <kmc> `run ls ./wisdom | tr -d a-z
22:05:08 <HackEgo> `? \ ? \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ $1? \ 523 \ \ \ \ \ - \ \ \ \ \ ** \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ - \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ 8 \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ 4 \ \ \ \ \ \ - \ \ \ \ \ \ \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ø \ Ø
22:05:25 <kmc> `echo ø | tr -d a-z
22:05:35 <kmc> `echo ø | LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 tr -d a-z
22:05:36 <HackEgo> ø | LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 tr -d a-z
22:05:38 <elliott> coppro: maybe if all you do in the channel is whine that you are being pinged and mess with bots because of it to show everyone how angry you are you should just... /part
22:05:40 <kmc> `run echo ø | LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 tr -d a-z
22:05:50 <elliott> and then you'd not be getting pinged by a channel you don't want to look at.
22:06:06 <monqy> um sometimes he says stuff about that webcomic
22:06:09 <monqy> you know, the one sgeo likes
22:06:14 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: fool oerjan <-- i _said_ it was simple. i don't want to do something which breaks an unrelated ls use.
22:06:31 <kmc> `run echo ø | LC_ALL=da_DK.UTF-8 tr -d a-z
22:06:38 <coppro> elliott: maybe I should. but you usually are the one to /part this channel in rage
22:06:41 <elliott> oerjan: right. I think you can normalise the path though.
22:06:47 <kmc> `run LC_ALL=da_DK.UTF-8 locale
22:06:48 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="da_DK.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="da_DK
22:06:54 <kmc> en_NZ? what a country
22:07:19 <ais523> yeah, people have commented on HackEgo being set to en_NZ before now
22:07:31 <elliott> it's because gregor is from new zealand
22:07:35 <monqy> coppro: what's that supposed to do with anything / do you not want to associate yourself with elliott / maybe you should leave you're associating with him just by being in here
22:08:27 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
22:08:30 <ais523> coppro: actually, I thought it was normally me who rageparted
22:08:33 <ais523> although elliott does it too
22:09:11 <monqy> it goes in and out of fashion
22:09:27 <coppro> monqy: oh my god your right
22:09:42 <coppro> also elliot is a human
22:09:48 <coppro> i should commit suicide to avoid shame by association
22:09:55 <monqy> the worst shame of all
22:10:13 <ais523> coppro: you misspelt his name deliberately?
22:10:53 <monqy> unfortunately i can't stick around to see this to its conclusion / prior engagements / bye bye
22:10:56 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
22:11:28 <HackEgo> No one was ever called Elliot.
22:11:40 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood).
22:12:02 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: right. I think you can normalise the path though. <-- i don't know how to do that without hunting through more manuals than i have patience for. also it mustn't break if it's actually a flag or something.
22:12:03 <ais523> coppro: oh no youre using monqy spelling
22:12:22 <ais523> oerjan: hmm… without knowing the context, I'll guess readlink -f
22:12:33 <ais523> coppro: no he just removes apostrophes
22:12:44 <elliott> he literally just used apostrophes the last line he said
22:13:50 <kmc> def method_missing(n, *a, &b); send(methods.min_by { |m| levenshtein(n.to_s, m.to_s) }, *a, &b); end
22:13:59 <oerjan> ais523: absolutely not.
22:14:13 <ais523> elliott: monqy doesn't always use monqy spelling
22:14:30 <oerjan> ais523: the argument isn't guaranteed to be an actual existing file
22:14:35 <ais523> it's reserved for specific circumstances
22:14:49 <ais523> oerjan: oh, readlink -m then
22:15:08 <ais523> or readlink -e if you want the directory it's in to exist
22:15:38 <oerjan> and it would _still_ break if someone just adds a flag in front of the file argument.
22:16:18 <ais523> yeah, you'd have to filter out things that started with -
22:16:32 <ais523> and then someone'd do something like mkdir -; ls -- -/../wisdom
22:16:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
22:19:14 <ais523> anyway, I think it's probably OK to have an `ls that will stop people listing wisdom by mistake
22:19:27 <ais523> it'll always be possible to do it intentionally if you really want to
22:21:09 <oerjan> ais523: so what's the best poison to get rid of housemates i'm sure you're an expert on this.
22:21:32 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think I'd ever attempt to get rid of housemates
22:21:36 <ais523> not via poison, at least
22:21:42 <ais523> I'd suggest something non-fatal, anyway
22:21:58 <ais523> they'd likely leave and/or press criminal charges upon discovering you attempted to poison them
22:22:01 <zzo38> I suggest using a poison which does not harm the environment or light your house on fire.
22:22:04 <ais523> regardless of whether or not it suceeded
22:22:22 <zzo38> But first tell them to go away; maybe you need not waste any poison.
22:23:20 <oerjan> but telling them to go away would be rude!
22:24:18 <kmc> `stat wisdom
22:24:19 <HackEgo> File: `wisdom' \ Size: 4096 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 directory \ Device: 10h/16dInode: 752131 Links: 2 \ Access: (0755/drwxr-xr-x) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2013-02-01 21:20:23.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2013-02-01 21:20:14.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2013-02-01 21:20:14.000000000 +0000
22:24:33 <ais523> oerjan: poisoning them would probably be ruder
22:24:42 <kmc> `stat -c %i wisdom
22:24:44 <HackEgo> stat: missing operand \ Try `stat --help' for more information.
22:24:45 <ais523> why do you want to get rid of your housemates anyway?
22:24:57 <kmc> `run stat -c %i wisdom
22:25:06 <oerjan> because they're occupying the kitchen with theire girlfriend hth
22:25:07 <kmc> `cat bin/ls
22:25:08 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" = wisdom -o "$1" = wisdom/ ]; \ then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; \ else exec /bin/ls "$@"; \ fi
22:25:10 <ais523> kmc: oh no, I know what you're doing
22:25:20 <ais523> I thought you were planning to `ls wisdom by inode
22:25:28 <ais523> rather than setting ls to reject the inode
22:26:23 <Bike> this all seems a bit... overengineered
22:26:43 <oerjan> i know, checking for the trailing / might be overkill
22:27:14 <Bike> maybe you could just tell people not to do `ls wisdom
22:27:34 <oerjan> Bike: every newbie in the channel does it.
22:27:50 <Bike> what's the log paste command again
22:27:51 <oerjan> that's not what i call a sustainable policy.
22:28:07 <kmc> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nif [ $(stat -c %i "$1") -eq 752131 ]; then echo "As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead."; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi' > bin/ls
22:28:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/ls: 3: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
22:28:23 <kmc> oh backquotes work inside "" don't they :/
22:28:42 <Bike> `pastelogs "`ls wisdom"
22:28:44 <oerjan> kmc: i did the same mistake
22:29:13 <kmc> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nif [ $(stat -c %i "$1") -eq 752131 ]; then echo '"'"'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'"'"'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi' > bin/ls
22:29:15 <zzo38> Is there the environment variable to check the sender and recipient of the message?
22:29:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28297
22:29:24 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `': No such file or directory \ [: 2: -eq: unexpected operator \ = 0 \ bin \ canary \ dbg.out \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ quotese \ run~ \ share \ test \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
22:29:38 <kmc> `cat bin/ls
22:29:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(stat -c %i "$1") -eq 752131 ]; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi
22:29:53 <Bike> `pastelogs `ls wisdom
22:29:55 <oerjan> kmc: you cannot assume the first argument is a file
22:30:00 <kmc> oh yeah :/
22:30:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18708
22:30:18 <oerjan> did that break mine as well...
22:30:29 <kmc> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nif [ "$(stat -c %i "$1" 2>/dev/null)" -eq 752131 ]; then echo '"'"'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'"'"'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi' > bin/ls
22:30:35 <HackEgo> [: 2: Illegal number: \ = 0 \ bin \ canary \ dbg.out \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ quotese \ run~ \ share \ test \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
22:30:58 <Bike> so what, maybe once in the entirety of december
22:31:01 <oerjan> oh mine works without argument, ok
22:31:15 <kmc> `run stat -c %i ""
22:31:16 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `': No such file or directory
22:31:20 <kmc> `run stat -c %i "" 2>/dev/null
22:31:23 <elliott> kmc: You can get ls to output inodes.
22:31:25 <kmc> ok i don't know what the problem is then
22:31:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: strace: not found
22:31:48 <HackEgo> [: 2: Illegal number: \ 752131 wisdom
22:31:53 <elliott> `run builtin ls -id -lmkr wisdom
22:31:54 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: builtin: ls: not a shell builtin
22:31:56 <elliott> `run command ls -id -lmkr wisdom
22:31:58 <HackEgo> [: 2: Illegal number: \ 752131 wisdom
22:31:58 <elliott> `run /bin/ls -id -lmkr wisdom
22:31:58 <kmc> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nif [ "$(stat -c %i "$1" 2>/dev/null)" = 752131 ]; then echo '"'"'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'"'"'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi' > bin/ls
22:32:05 <HackEgo> = 0 \ bin \ canary \ dbg.out \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ quotese \ run~ \ share \ test \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
22:32:10 <elliott> And then compare that against the inode.
22:32:11 <kmc> `ls wisdom
22:32:12 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
22:32:43 <kmc> `run ls -id "$@" wisdom
22:33:05 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:33:16 <oerjan> `run stat -c %i wisdom
22:33:18 <kmc> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nif ls -id "$@" | grep -q '^752131 '; then echo '"'"'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'"'"'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi' > bin/ls
22:33:38 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/ls: 2: Cannot fork \ = 0 \ bin \ canary \ dbg.out \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ quotese \ run~ \ share \ test \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
22:33:48 <kmc> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nif /bin/ls -id "$@" | grep -q '^752131 '; then echo '"'"'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'"'"'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi' > bin/ls
22:33:57 <HackEgo> = 0 \ bin \ canary \ dbg.out \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ quotese \ run~ \ share \ test \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
22:33:59 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ define \ delquote \ emoclew \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma+ \ learn \ list \ liste \ lists \ log \ logurl \ ls \ lua \ luac \
22:34:01 <kmc> `ls wisdom
22:34:02 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
22:34:07 <kmc> ok i declare this Good Enough
22:34:11 <kmc> thanks all for putting up with it
22:35:51 <HackEgo> total 36748 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Jan 31 20:36 = 0 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000 4096 Feb 1 22:33 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 4 Jan 31 20:36 canary \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 341112 Jan 31 20:36 dbg.out \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 2974360 Jan 31 20:36 egobot.tar.xz \ drwxr-xr-x 3 5000 5000 4096 Jan 31 20:36 etc \ drwxr-
22:36:12 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
22:37:18 <HackEgo> wisdom/`? \ wisdom/? \ wisdom/☃ \ wisdom/⌨ \ wisdom/🐐 \ wisdom/$1? \ wisdom/ais523 \ wisdom/america \ wisdom/atriq \ wisdom/atrix \ wisdom/augur \ wisdom/banach-tarski \ wisdom/bike \ wisdom/boily \ wisdom/bonvenon \ wisdom/brain \ wisdom/brainf**k \ wisdom/brainfuck \ wisdom/brick \ wisdom/burma \ wisdom/c \ wisdom/cakeprophet \ wisdom/cali
22:37:19 <fizzie> Next patch bash not to do that.
22:37:28 <Bike> if you're worried about noobs doing it why would you care about them finding a way around it
22:38:10 <oerjan> especially since /bin/ls is still there the same as always.
22:38:20 <Bike> just kickban people in a rage like a normal irc channel!!
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22:47:54 <olsner> DDR3: trinary memory, the bandwidth increases by 1.5x (compared to binary DDR2 memory) due to using trinary encoding instead of binary
22:48:05 <elliott> kmc: Can't you just do ls -id wisdom and compare that?
22:48:10 <elliott> Rather than hardcoding the inode, which might change.
22:51:29 <olsner> (the original unary DDR memory allowed only the canonical truth to be stored - while both thread-safe and fast, it was somewhat limited in application)
22:55:43 <Vorpal> olsner, trying to find the context to your line about DDR3, but I can't. Did it just start there?
22:55:47 <olsner> ECC - European (or Error) Control Central: memory with ECC support reports all errors to the central database in Brussels. Manufacturers of faulty memories are fined appropriately.
22:56:01 <Sgeo> http://goto.ucsd.edu/~rjhala/liquid/haskell/blog/blog/2013/01/31/safely-catching-a-list-by-its-tail.lhs/
22:56:09 <olsner> Vorpal: it started some months ago, dunno when
22:56:12 <Sgeo> Am I going to need to read the prior blog posts to understand this?
22:56:15 <HackEgo> 712) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
22:56:41 <Vorpal> olsner, and this has been a regular thing since then?
22:56:48 <olsner> no, this is the second installment
22:56:56 <Vorpal> olsner, what about QDRAM?
22:57:34 <olsner> ah, Quantum DRAM? in layman's terms it's everywhere at once but seldom in your particular computer
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22:58:07 <Vorpal> olsner, that is a bit of a bummer then
22:59:06 <olsner> there's a common myth that QDRAM stands for quad double ram, but that's just silly since that'd be some sort of octaram and ram is already measured in octets
23:01:30 <Vorpal> olsner, actually rambus is not related to memory at all. It is basically sheep herding using large vehicles.
23:01:48 <olsner> yes, the so-called trick question
23:02:39 <olsner> a rambus can either be a bus used for ramming or a bus dressed out as a ram ... both are implements extensively used in sheep herding
23:02:54 <oerjan> and if you believe all this, you're what the germans call RAMMSTEIN
23:03:09 <olsner> that or a sheep herder
23:03:18 <olsner> unless that's what rammstein means
23:03:35 <Vorpal> olsner, google translate fails that :/
23:03:43 <Vorpal> olsner, but it *does* detect it as german
23:04:07 <olsner> Vorpal: btw, rammstein is also the name of a well-known german band
23:04:28 <Vorpal> olsner, I wouldn't know, I don't listen much to modern music
23:04:39 <olsner> most sheep herders don't
23:05:26 <Vorpal> olsner, are you saying I'm a sheep herder!? Come on, don't insult me. I'm a honest goat owner. I'm not some shady sheep farmer.
23:05:27 <oerjan> "They took their name (adding an "m") from the location of a German tragedy where 80 people were hurt and killed as the result of a crash during an American Air Force flight show. The literal translation of "ram stein" is a battering ram made of stone."
23:05:39 <olsner> Vorpal: goat are sheep
23:05:48 <Vorpal> olsner, now you are getting worse
23:06:12 <oerjan> but if you fuck _one_ goat...
23:06:25 <Vorpal> olsner, I prefer using pax to tar
23:07:00 <ais523> oerjan: but I use pax as a joke :)
23:07:10 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway I thought DDR memory was a dancing game, right?
23:07:27 <ais523> and it stands for "double data rate" as well as "dance dance revolution"
23:07:38 <ais523> I think it's clocked on both the rising and the falling clock edge
23:07:49 <Vorpal> ais523, you are wrong. Or so says olsner
23:07:56 <ais523> and that makes your circuitry so much more complex you only do it if you're trying to squeeze out the last few points of performance
23:07:57 <oerjan> i think DDR memory is called "Ostalgie" these days.
23:08:17 <Vorpal> olsner, did you say what DDR itself meant? You didn't did you
23:08:48 <olsner> I didn't, but the memory standard is named from the Deutsche Demokratische Republik ... it took until DDR2 to figure out how to store binary data in the thingies though
23:08:50 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway this whole discussion was a big joke, so thus don't treat it seriously :P
23:09:05 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't think I was :)
23:11:21 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway if you are interested, look QDR up, that stuff actually exists.
23:11:36 <ais523> Vorpal: I know it exists
23:11:48 <Vorpal> ais523, I think ODR exists too. Which is insane
23:11:50 <ais523> from an electronic engineering point of view, I think it's crazy, but see why it might be necessary
23:12:08 <ais523> it involves breaking simplifying assumptions that are used pretty much everywhere
23:12:13 <ais523> so it's much harder to reason about such circuits
23:12:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I believe RAMBUS was ODR btw
23:12:55 <ais523> "things happen at leading edges only" and "the clock rate is the only thing that determines timing, because timing differences are eaten up by latches"
23:13:05 <ais523> you can't use the standard combinatorial+latches model of the circuit any more
23:13:06 <olsner> oh, apparently the Quadrennial Defence Review was requested as a consequence of the dissolution of the soviets, presumably including the DDR
23:13:41 <oerjan> ddr wasn't part of the soviet union. sheesh don't you know _anything_.
23:13:58 <oerjan> (only oppressed by them.)
23:14:54 <Vorpal> I presume you have already seen this, but it seems pretty crazy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21193634
23:14:55 <olsner> oerjan: I don't know anything about Gwleidyddiaeth or any such business
23:15:30 <ais523> basically, Antigua were given permission to violate a certain amount of US copyrights as compensation for the US violating a trade agreement, or something like that
23:15:41 <Vorpal> ais523, by this logic you could semi-legally move GPL code from US into that country and re-release it as BSD?
23:16:21 <ais523> Vorpal: not quite, as far as I can tell there's no way to get a workable downstream license
23:16:30 <ais523> so Americans wouldn't be able to use the resulting code
23:16:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well okay, what about the rest of the world?
23:16:50 <olsner> not at all, or just not under another license?
23:17:06 <Vorpal> olsner, presumably they could under the original license
23:17:43 <olsner> presumably... otherwise you could just Antiguate all code and make it unusable in the US
23:20:35 <Vorpal> ais523, what the fuck, BBC breaks middle-click-to-open-in-new-tab
23:27:14 <Vorpal> can anyone explain the theory behind darcs
23:27:29 <Vorpal> I would guess either ais523 or elliott knows where to find out more about it.
23:28:00 <ais523> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_Darcs/Patch_theory
23:28:19 <oerjan> my knowledge on the subject is a little patchy
23:33:46 <elliott> it's what ais523 would say :)
23:34:14 <ais523> elliott: except I replied with a link
23:34:18 <shachaf> what are some good concurrency primitives
23:34:27 <ais523> shachaf: how primitive do you want?
23:34:36 <ais523> mathematically, the mutex is the one we use most often, and we build other things out of that
23:34:47 <ais523> if you want something practical, compare-and-swap can be more efficient
23:34:57 <ais523> although it requires some sort of scheduler support if you don't want to busywait
23:35:07 <ais523> so basically, high-level or low-level?
23:35:10 <shachaf> how about for coöperative threading
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23:36:00 <ais523> oh, with coöperative threading, you don't need any primitives but yield
23:36:06 <ais523> if you're not yielding, you're automatically in a critical section
23:36:54 <shachaf> Well, some things could be nice as primitives.
23:37:03 <shachaf> If you want to communicate with other threads, for example.
23:37:25 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> what are some good concurrency primitives <ais523> shachaf: how primitive do you want?
23:37:29 <ais523> oh, I was assuming shared memory
23:37:29 <HackEgo> 948) <shachaf> what are some good concurrency primitives <ais523> shachaf: how primitive do you want?
23:37:50 <ais523> without that, you need some sort of send/receive that can figure out what each other are talking about
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23:38:49 <Bike> hey ais, do you use pi calculus in your academic whatevers?
23:39:17 <shachaf> Shared memory is fine but what sort of variables do you take as primitives?
23:39:38 <ais523> Bike: no, but enough other people do that I know it's relevant here
23:39:46 <ais523> I recognise it, but don't really reason with it
23:41:38 <ais523> it's mostly used in security in my department
23:42:41 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> ...but not on article links. <-- yeah that is what I tried
23:43:04 <Vorpal> elliott, ais523: thanks
23:43:35 <Vorpal> <ais523> if you want something practical, compare-and-swap can be more efficient <-- what about double compare and swap
23:44:00 <Vorpal> ais523, as in compare a and swap with b, and also compare c and swap with d. IIRC some old Motorola had that
23:44:22 <Vorpal> err, compare a with b and swap with c, and compare c with d and swap with e
23:44:35 <ais523> Vorpal: that sounds like an optimization
23:45:07 <Vorpal> ais523, iirc it allow you to do some stuff normal CAS can't do reasonably. Like a wait-free queue. Read about that somewhere
23:45:43 <elliott> ais523: atomicity isn't an optimisation
23:45:50 <Vorpal> ais523, I think both needs to match for any of the swap to happen?
23:46:14 <ais523> elliott: well CAS is enough to implement anything
23:46:18 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_compare-and-swap
23:46:23 <ais523> but it often takes a bunch of commands to do so
23:46:45 <Vorpal> ais523, "One of the advantages of DCAS is the ability to implement atomic deques (i.e. doubly linked lists).[2]"
23:47:05 <ais523> sort-of like you can see C as an optimization of brainfuck
23:48:14 <Vorpal> elliott, remember that paper I linked at one point, of that interesting OS that used DCAS amongst other things?
23:48:19 <Vorpal> elliott, do you remember the name of it?
23:48:30 <Vorpal> some old master thesis iirc?
23:49:00 <Bike> it's on whatshername's site
23:49:09 <Bike> valerie... something?
23:50:01 <elliott> http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/
23:50:17 <elliott> That HTML version is a bit 90s.
23:50:45 <Bike> yeah, i have it as pdf, but it's nice to have html sometimes
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