00:00:28 (IIRC, Fedora includes it in their copy of bluez by default, in fact.) 00:01:02 I was about to mention that the Sixaxis Controller app does disable the normal Bluetooth as another negative thing about it, though. 00:12:54 -!- friesk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:16:20 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:37:32 monqy: do you know what limits are 00:37:47 didn't you ask me that yesterday 00:37:56 maybe 00:38:01 im forgetful 00:38:03 like a functor 00:38:18 also you're basically elliott right? 00:38:38 that depends 00:38:38 and elliott knows what limits are, which he didn't know yesterday 00:39:29 monqy: i'm trying to figure out what pullbacks are in a poset category? 00:39:39 do you know 00:39:39 ok 00:39:50 i'm pretty sure they exist if it's a lattice 00:40:03 or maybe even just a semilattice.... 00:40:22 if i say ok enough will you figure it out? if i silently replace myself with eliza will you notice 00:41:26 probably 00:41:35 eventually 00:41:53 i don't think monqy knows his limits 00:41:56 perhaps he has none 00:42:31 oh no 00:49:09 -!- Taneb has joined. 00:49:28 Okay, in the end I did go to that UV rave 00:50:10 YUV rave 00:50:15 did you dream about LC 00:50:22 Nah 00:50:25 LC? 00:50:26 Was too awake 00:50:32 Lambda calculus 00:50:38 `quote dream about 00:50:44 No output. 00:50:47 `quote dreamt about 00:50:49 No output. 00:50:54 `quote dream 00:50:56 154) catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 239) back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. \ 249) Gregor, yeah, but P 00:51:04 Phantom_Hoover: its like brainfuck 00:51:51 Taneb, was ian bell at the uv rave (this is all i know about uv raves) 00:52:01 Andrew Bell was 00:52:05 Is that close enough 00:52:34 no 00:52:41 ultraviolent? 00:52:43 :( 00:52:44 that sounds dangerous 00:52:49 ULTRAVIOLENT RAVE 00:52:57 A sink was destroyed 00:53:29 wow ian bell breeds cats too 00:53:48 the man is full of surprises 00:54:35 Is there anything that man cannot do 00:54:55 Well, some things are impossible. 00:55:20 I've drank alcohol. Everything is possible. 00:55:57 Is it possible to have a universe where thirteen is not a prime number? 00:56:11 zzo38: Yes. 00:56:31 Yes. Simplest way is to redefine 13 to equal, for example, what we call six 00:57:39 but what if six is a prime number too 00:58:06 Then your universe sucks 00:59:16 i would posit that yours sucks more 00:59:32 indeed i would strengthen that claim and propose that it sucks a big bag of cocks 01:02:00 Can there be the universe that time goes only sideways? 01:02:13 o.O kmc had a hand in this.... http://blog.ezyang.com/2011/11/how-to-read-haskell/ 01:02:21 zzo38, have you read the Orthogonal series? 01:02:28 No 01:03:01 yeah i offered feedback 01:03:17 zzo38, time acts geometrically in the universe of that series, so instead of x^2+y^2+z^2-t^2 = umimnotsureithinkaconstnat, it's x^2+y^2+z^2+t^2 01:03:51 it's =s^2 01:04:17 also er that pretty much automatically implies causality violation 01:04:50 (s is proper time, i.e. time as observed by whatever's moving) 01:05:25 Well, there's no speed limit, some characters are trying to reach infinite velocity as determined by their home world 01:05:37 ^^some spoilers 01:05:52 I don't think causality is a fundamental rule of the universe, though. 01:05:58 i'm... pretty sure what you're describing is just s^2 = t^2 01:06:25 sounds like really dorky sci-fi, anyway. 01:06:28 Time in the Orthogonal series's universe is not fundamentally a distinct direction from space 01:06:43 Bike, the author has all these... charts. I am not joking 01:06:56 Stops the narrative to have characters either learn or explain the science they're discovering 01:07:06 well that sounds great 01:07:07 And you read this of your own volition. 01:07:22 I read the first book of the series, going to buy the second soon 01:07:31 (It's a trilogy, but third book isn't out yet) 01:07:47 I have to admit to skimming over the science stuff a bit 01:07:50 Bike: dont tell me you dont enjoy super dorky super hard scifi 01:07:54 everyone does whether they admit it or not 01:07:59 elliott, that's not super dorky super hard scifi 01:08:04 I wish I understood it at a glance 01:08:04 Phantom_Hoover: that was more a general statement 01:08:05 :( 01:08:06 that's lazy scifi 01:08:08 Well, I do, but it doesn't usually go as far as charts. 01:08:09 i in fact barely looked at what sgeo said 01:08:17 ...okay, so I did like Expedition. 01:08:26 Phantom_Hoover, uh. lazy? 01:08:40 http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/ORTHOGONAL/00/PM.html 01:08:51 "here are a bunch of cool concepts, i will make the most cursory attempt to attach them to the narrative" 01:08:58 oh it's greg egan? 01:09:04 going out on a limb and saying it's probably not lazy 01:09:06 Haha of course it's Egan 01:09:24 maybe i should actually read anything hes written beyond like the two short stories i have 01:09:28 gotta have me some charts 01:09:42 elliott, I read The Clockwork Rocket 01:09:44 I liked Schild's Ladder, though it probably warped my psyche some since I was like twelve. 01:10:31 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 01:10:53 "Interstellar voyages taking longer for the travellers than for everyone else might just sound annoying" 01:11:09 "dammit, I can't use this universe. it's just... annoying" 01:11:34 http://tallcomics.com/?id=17 anyway this is my favorite sci-fi 01:11:36 WONTFIX 01:11:41 Mind if I ROT13 some spoilers? 01:12:25 ROT26 it to be on the safe side. 01:12:48 dont rot13 stuff in #esoteric 01:12:51 unless you want me to read it 01:13:28 elliott, how much do you want to avoid spoilers for The Clockwork Rocket? 01:13:39 ROT(infinity) it if you know how. 01:13:47 idk is it a good book 01:13:49 ==zzo38 01:13:53 my caring is directly related to how good it is 01:13:57 `run quote zzo38 | shuf 01:14:00 263) Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent? \ 328) Finally I found the wand of electric lightning now we can destroy any large object if it needs to be destroyed and is required to use a such a wand for that purpose. \ 439) elliott_: 01:14:02 elliott, I kind of liked it, but I'm a bad judge 01:14:26 zzo38_ebooks 01:14:28 zzo38: Did you ever use the want of electric lightning? 01:14:41 * Sgeo_ decides not to paste the spoiler 01:14:44 kmc: I would follow that on Twitter! 01:14:47 `pastelogs zzo38 01:14:52 shachaf: No 01:15:00 zzo38: s/want/wand/ 01:15:12 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3415 01:15:16 Same answer 01:16:14 `pastelogs Sgeo 01:16:21 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21081 01:16:43 Oops. 01:16:46 I meant. 01:16:49 `pastequotes zzo38 01:16:54 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24833 01:17:12 `pastelogs Sgep 01:17:19 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2696 01:17:21 `pastelogs `pastelogs 01:17:22 Can you make another kind of pastelogs command which allow to specify start date/time? 01:17:33 zzo38: Are you on the moon? 01:17:43 No, I am still on the Earth. 01:17:52 No output. 01:18:29 `quote 467 01:18:31 467) well, you have bested me itidus20: Yes. 01:18:51 Oh god my first conversation in here was about stuff related to PSOX? 01:19:02 So? 01:19:13 elliott, go tell Bike about PSOX 01:19:26 Oh, I thought you said POSIX. 01:19:31 Also "beerkills" 01:19:32 `? qdbformat 01:19:34 qdbformat is: message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two 01:19:36 istr that the first time i came in here i left about half an hour later because elliott yelled at me for spamming up the channel with HackEgo 01:19:43 ...oh god WHAT HAVE I BECOME 01:19:48 my first conversation was being asked what my business was in here. thanks elliott 01:19:58 monqy: i still don't know what your business here is 01:20:03 The first time I came in here was the first time that I came in here. 01:20:06 Bike, I was a very anti-alcohol person 01:20:09 wait monqy is here for business? 01:20:14 Sgeo_: lol. 01:20:18 677 is a CAD quote, I'm sure 01:20:19 i always thought it was pleasure........ 01:20:38 Taneb, I'm sure it's a quote from something 01:20:40 monqy: what is your business here 01:21:01 Anyway, I need sleep 01:21:33 `quote 860 01:21:34 860) i would subscribe to @zzo38_ebooks kmc: I have no ebooks which can subscribe to 01:21:35 `quote 677 01:21:36 677) When you die in Canada, you die in real life. 01:21:53 imo 677 should be deleted 01:21:55 thats an xkcd reference 01:21:59 it stays because zzo38 said it 01:22:08 zzo38 said a lot of things 01:22:14 2005-10-31.txt:23:58:29: And now, for an interpretive piece I like to call "Sgep" 01:22:14 2005-10-31.txt:23:58:33: Hi! 01:22:14 2005-10-31.txt:23:58:39: brb 01:22:14 2005-10-31.txt:23:58:47: Back. 01:22:14 2005-10-31.txt:23:58:57: Got to go, see you later. 01:22:16 we can't addquote every single thing zzo38 says 01:22:17 2005-10-31.txt:23:59:02: * Sgep has left freenode () 01:22:25 Are you sure it is xkcd? I read it elsewhere 01:22:38 at least xkcd did it once 01:22:43 maybe that was a reference but if it is i don't know what it was referencing 01:22:48 shachaf: Correct; that would make the quotation file too large; there are logs for that. 01:23:12 http://xkcd.com/180/ 01:23:21 well i guess its a matrix reference 01:23:27 However, I don't want deleting from the quotation file (whether it is mine or elsewise) (other than ones just written in error and should be deleted due to that); one thing it mess up the numbering but there are other problem too 01:23:27 but the matrix isn't canada (afaik) 01:23:31 In CAD, Ethan did go to Canada at one point 01:23:40 did he die in canada 01:23:46 taneb why do you know things about cad 01:23:47 I do not believe so 01:23:56 elliott, I have a dark and shady past 01:24:04 agreed 01:24:13 you can learn quite a lot about cad just from reading people mocking it 01:24:25 i know things about cad for the reason Phantom_Hoover notes 01:24:25 I read quite a bit of CAD 01:24:38 i've also watched the cad cartoons because they're awful 01:24:39 Up until the robot guy went on a quest to find something 01:24:41 Will I learn things from watching people talk about learning about it from reading mockeries? 01:24:45 tanebs knowledged seemed a bit `first hand' 01:24:46 A soul I think 01:24:48 don't worry Taneb we all did dumb things in our past 01:24:48 *knowledghdehek 01:24:55 for instance elliott started programming with php 01:24:57 Phantom_Hoover: did you ever make a bf derivative 01:25:07 im happy to have never read cad 01:25:08 thats not strictly true i started programming by copying basic programs from a book into a computer (badly) 01:25:10 no but i wrote a godawful interpreter once 01:25:18 then i forgot about programming until i was 8 01:25:21 and then came the php 01:25:29 You add quote if, that is what you like it particularly enough to add. It is no point adding everything which result in being the same as the full logs; read the full log instead if you want! 01:25:42 life tip: don't start programming in php at 8 yrs of age 01:26:02 Start in Visual Basic at 12 01:26:05 It worked for me 01:26:06 (tm) 01:26:20 I wonder if that's actually trademarked... 01:26:50 i found visual basic too complicated 01:26:50 i started with pascal 01:26:57 that counts as child abuse right 01:27:03 Actually I do not think such things really are such problem. Sure it may not be very good programming languages, but, you can write a good program, regardless what one, and then learn other programming languages maybe is you liked better 01:27:34 "It Worked For Me: Life Lessons from Colin Powell" 01:28:03 Can I continue to blame my inability to write GUIs on having learned Visual Basic when I was young? 01:28:08 monqy: when did you / what language did you start programming with 01:28:25 what's wrong with php 01:28:30 incidentally, apparently colin powell's name is pronounced 'cohlan' 01:28:34 this is stupid, why does he do that 01:28:40 shachaf, it's an acronym 01:28:58 does it stand for PHP: hi Phantom_Hoover 01:29:04 Phantom_Hoover: He doesn't want to be confused by other people having the same name, maybe 01:30:03 I wonder if my life would have taken a different path if I never shattered that ActiveX for Dummies CD when I was a kid... 01:30:18 (by accident) 01:30:19 elliott: the details are kind of muddy but sometime around 8 with some combination of logo, calculator basic, and flowcharts (which were used to program the microcontrollers) 01:30:48 Would I have grown up to be a Windows lover, relied on IDEs for those... ID things that ActiveX uses? 01:30:59 and also some other things like uhhhh 01:31:01 Would I be a better programmer because of more practice, even with horrible tools? 01:31:02 some other things 01:31:14 this is a really boring alternate history i must say 01:31:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Goodnight). 01:32:09 i don't like the IDEs = horrible tools implication 01:32:20 i'm sure whatever was included with ActiveX for Dummies was horrible though 01:32:29 since ActiveX is 01:32:43 By horrible tools I meant VBScript. And reliance on a language+environment where I needed the IDE in order to give me opaque blobs of information that need to go in the code 01:33:10 (The CLSID thing I think) 01:38:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:39:34 whoa, dude, this web page uses VRML 01:41:04 that's a blast from the past 01:41:44 http://www.j-paine.org/scratch/wc_2013_2_17_1_37_5_368.html 01:41:49 I guess it doesn't actually "use" it. 01:41:53 But it generates VRML files? 01:41:57 whoa 01:42:02 VRML is awesomesauce 01:42:39 i remember a site that had a VRML model of a wienerschnitzel 01:42:54 and when you clicked it would disappear and a voice would say "mmmm yummy schnitzel" 01:43:08 lol 01:43:13 kmc: what's the etymology of miuaf btw? 01:44:23 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:45:20 initials of the name of my blog 01:45:23 i'm bad at naming things 01:45:42 copumpkin retweeted me, now a bunch of iPhone jailbreaking enthusiasts can see my halfbaked remarks :) 01:45:47 lol 01:46:15 need to get one of the real jailbreakers to retweet you 01:46:17 so you can get way more 01:46:24 them iphone jailbreaking people must be baffled by their celebrities' quirks 01:46:28 "that haskell guy" "that nomic guy" 01:46:30 a couple of them have more than 400k followers 01:46:32 which is crazy 01:46:34 copumpkin retweeted me once 01:46:39 comex: ps hi 01:46:44 pfft 01:46:45 I didn't even tweet anything. :-( 01:46:51 comex is small fish compared to pod2g and MuscleNerd 01:46:52 Doesn't stop copumpkin. 01:46:57 * copumpkin shakes his head at comex 01:47:05 a measly 200k 01:47:21 shachaf: muahahha 01:47:57 what's saurik's quirk 01:50:10 unfortunately we have exhausted the space of iphone jailbreaky people i know 01:50:18 so you will just have to wonder 01:50:19 forever 01:50:22 i hope you can handle it 01:50:48 saurik's pretty big 01:50:53 still not as big as the other two 01:51:01 fucking celebrities 01:51:38 I haven't heard of either of them. 01:51:42 I've heard of copumpkin, though! 01:52:12 copumpkin is the celebrity of our hearts & that's all that matters 01:53:31 copumpkin: So Haskell doesn't have pullbacks? 01:53:37 Does Agda have them? 01:54:01 yep 01:54:25 Yep to both? 01:55:05 Someone mentioned VRML and I wasn't paying attention? 01:55:07 * Sgeo_ sads 01:55:08 yeah, haskell doesn't have pullbacks and agda does 01:55:10 Also, pullbacks? 01:55:32 OK, that makes sense. 01:55:42 Because you need a type that expresses things like f(a)=g(b) 01:55:46 yeah 01:55:52 What's a pullback? 01:55:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:55:55 you can sort of do it at the type level 01:56:12 but that doesn't really count 01:56:18 Sgeo_: it's sort of like a fancier product 01:56:21 elliott: You're right, we should abandon Haskell for all the category things. 01:56:25 It doesn't even have pullbacks. :-( 01:56:37 Sgeo_: it's the limit of the diagram X -> Z <- Y 01:56:49 I guess it doesn't have equalizers either. 01:56:53 ..that means nothing to me :( 01:57:06 To me product means tuple 01:57:10 yeah, that's the one 01:57:15 shachaf: and no, it doesn't 01:57:25 Sgeo_: fail 01:57:29 Sgeo_: Don't worry, elliott is just trying to be intimidating. 01:57:33 Sgeo_: do you know SQL joins? 01:57:40 Sgeo_: 24 hours ago he didn't know what limits were either! 01:57:56 I think those are the most "down-to-earth" notion of pullbacks in common usage 01:58:02 shachaf, I know what a limit is, just not what a diagram is. 01:58:13 Sgeo_: It's a different sort of limit. 01:58:18 this is probably a different kind of limit to the kind you're thinking of 01:58:19 Figured 01:58:26 this is not the limit you are looking for 01:58:32 Hopefully http://flockdraw.com/upload/8kr07f6lb00s44k80c4.png will make things clearer! 01:58:46 shachaf: beautiful 01:58:46 (It doesn't.) 01:59:09 shachaf: imo show the other one that has my drawing talent too 01:59:14 shachaf: who drew that? 01:59:16 Which other one? 01:59:24 copumpkin: Me, except for the black part. 01:59:25 the other one 01:59:27 bore 01:59:48 shachaf: http://flockdraw.com/upload/11rq0ta2ee1c8cog8c.png that one 02:00:00 Oh, sure. 02:00:10 That's a product expressed as a limit. 02:00:37 shachaf: there, 24k iphone fanboys saw your artwork 02:00:43 well, maybe not 02:00:59 help 02:01:02 copumpkin: wow I feel discriminated against 02:01:07 why? 02:01:16 my work is being unfairly overlooked!! 02:01:26 you aren't on twitter! or are you? 02:01:29 that is true 02:01:35 but i do draw bad diagrams with shachaf 02:01:47 `slist 02:01:48 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 02:01:49 it's ok he gets all the credit 02:02:00 that is but the place I am in 02:02:02 uh, or not 02:02:15 shachaf: I like how you can't tell the V is a V 02:02:22 or the H is a H 02:02:29 elliott: As opposed to a U? 02:02:31 False alarm. Or maybe Hussie changed something 02:02:38 It's actually supposed to be U 02:03:20 Darin Morrison (@darinmorrison) is now following you on Twitter! 02:03:48 I hope you're paying copumpkin for these valuable followers 02:04:01 copumpkin should pay me for making my email notification thing beep. 02:06:18 Anyway the explanation worked. 02:09:47 `slist for real 02:09:48 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 02:12:38 lol 02:12:48 professional 02:12:53 why is it an s list? 02:13:37 Becaue the `list is mysterious and fickle. 02:14:47 s is for stupid 02:16:43 slist? 02:16:57 it looks like the homestuck list but... 02:16:57 the s is for stupid 02:17:01 Phantom_Hoover, it is 02:17:07 `list 02:17:14 cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo shachaf Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett 02:17:17 No you fool! 02:17:21 `list 02:17:22 `rm bin/list 02:17:27 cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo shachaf Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover 02:17:28 You know not what you oh there it goes then. 02:17:29 No output. 02:17:41 `revert 02:17:44 Done. 02:18:00 Maybe someone can do something that blocks shachaf from being added? 02:18:07 Sounds good to me. 02:18:16 maybe shachaf can stop doing rm bin/list all the time 02:18:20 why should shachaf get special treatment 02:18:21 Or shachaf could just not run it? 02:18:26 Bike: I've never run it. 02:18:39 It was rather rude for you to be put on the list then. 02:18:44 I agree. 02:18:45 what if i want to be special too 02:18:54 monqy: you're already maximally special 02:18:54 So just find that person and eat them. 02:18:57 Problem solved. 02:18:57 `run sed -i s/ shachaf// bin/list 02:18:59 sed: -e expression #1, char 2: unterminated `s' command 02:19:07 monqy: btw did that diagram clear things up 02:19:08 shachaf is on the list according to the bin/list program 02:19:10 I don't actually know how to sed 02:19:14 shachaf: clear what up 02:19:16 by his own deliberate act 02:19:24 Sgeo_: I think this is a matter of not knowing how to bash. 02:19:28 `run sed -ie "s/ shachaf//" bin/list 02:19:31 No output. 02:19:34 thanks, Phantom_Hoover 02:19:39 `list 02:19:42 cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover 02:19:52 um im upset shachaf isnt on the list 02:19:59 if i whine enough can shachaf get put back on it 02:20:05 no monqy 02:20:10 you're "too mature to whine" 02:20:13 `rm bin/list 02:20:14 ^echo `revert 02:20:14 `revert `revert 02:20:15 look at me go 02:20:16 You're hypothetically very rude, Monqy. 02:20:17 No output. 02:20:18 abort: unknown revision '`revert'! 02:20:27 `revert 02:20:29 `list 02:20:29 Done. 02:20:32 cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover 02:20:58 maybe presentation slides need to exist in two versions 02:21:06 the version with all the internet meme shit to keep the audience's attention 02:21:12 and the version you post online with just the content 02:21:23 how about presentation slides just dont contain the internet meme shit at all 02:21:24 Oh I thought you were going to say and the version with cuttlefish. 02:21:26 `revert 2154 02:21:27 Done. 02:21:30 i hate it when that stuff happens 02:21:38 i know i can't pay attention for more than 3 seconds without an advice animal of some kind 02:21:51 Is there an advice cuttlefish? 02:22:04 `run cat bin/list 02:22:05 ​#!/bin/sh \ oldpwd=`pwd`; cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; name=$(cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | tail -1 | sed "s/[^<]*.*//; s/.*\* //; s/ .*//"); cd $oldpwd; fgrep -q "$name" bin/list || echo -n "$name " >> bin/list; echo cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo shachaf Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover 02:22:10 elliott: Please stop being annoying. 02:22:14 `revert 02:22:16 Done. 02:22:18 imo you stop first 02:22:23 `revert 02:22:25 Done. 02:22:31 maybe if you start doing your edits with less than a sledgehammer 02:22:41 Is it possible that this channel exists for people to irritate each other over pointless things for no reason? 02:22:42 would you people either stop bickering or fill me in on the juicy details 02:22:54 kind of ridiculous that you just wipe out files because of a tantrum 02:23:02 wait 02:23:08 didn't elliott or monqy delete bin/list too 02:23:14 Phantom_Hoover: there's a running joke where shachaf whines about this 02:23:16 monqy did as a joke 02:23:22 http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pbhkr/ I suspect this is dumb. 02:23:27 * Sgeo_ sides with shachaf on this 02:23:46 There are no sides. We are he as she is he and we are all together. 02:23:48 and so the lines were drawn for the Shachaf War 02:24:02 And when I say "she" I mean noone. 02:24:53 None of the cuttlefish I'm seeing on this meme site (why is there such a thing?) are very funny, but they are cute. 02:26:20 cuttlefish? why? 02:26:39 Because they're cute. And at the head of the list. 02:27:37 i feel like humanity should set cuttlefish up as our inheritors somehow 02:27:56 with, idk, strategically-placed caches of cuttlefish-applicable technology 02:28:53 They'd probably have to have significantly evolved morphology to use technology... 02:29:00 Hey, are Haskell records ever going to be fixed? 02:29:13 no. you can only fix functions 02:30:44 :-) 02:30:54 Sgeo_: http://lens.github.com/ 02:31:20 * Sgeo_ goes to watch video 02:31:33 Ok, it's long 02:31:33 hmm 02:31:35 Bike, er that's why i said 'cuttlefish-applicable' 02:32:00 I mean, we'd have to guess at what morphology they'd have in order to operate anything we gave them. 02:32:05 its not that long 02:32:07 Bike: i lolled 02:32:19 These are important considerations kmc. 02:32:28 Maybe I'll read the tutorial instead 02:32:51 Building something that could continue being usable milllions of years from now is also probably near impossible. 02:33:14 i feel that designing technology for present cuttlefish is a task only the blinkeredly myopic would call 'impossible' 02:34:04 can't we just evolve into cuttlefish 02:34:10 That's a good word. 02:34:27 which 02:34:31 was it "we" 02:34:34 elliott, no! we'd have to displace the cuttlefish then 02:34:48 that wouldn't be fair unless we let them have something in return 02:35:19 Blinkeredly. 02:35:53 Phantom_Hoover: I wouldn't call it 'impossible' but it might be difficult. 02:39:12 All I'm saying is cuttlefish are notoriously handfree. 02:39:43 People sometimes use handsfree telephones too, though. 02:39:59 Why does everyone like cuttlefish so much? 02:40:29 Bike, yes, an important challenge is overcoming handocentric human design 02:40:29 They're cute, intelligent, and have interesting camouflage behavior, probably. 02:40:47 Another good word. 02:41:04 "manocentric" says my internal ignorant pedant, though. 02:41:26 "manocentric" just sounds like a really silly term for sexism 02:41:46 It does. 02:41:54 that would be virocentric 02:42:05 That, along with "centric" and "mano-" probably being from different languages, is why my internal pedant is such a dummy. 02:42:12 which sounds like a criticism of 02:42:18 something 02:42:25 viros 02:42:40 They can't perceive color, but do perceive polarization. That might have interesting implications. 02:43:08 3d movies are right out 02:43:33 lcds are much easier though 02:43:40 cuttlefish can't perceive color? 02:43:41 you can do a wire-crossing in the plane with three xors right? is there a small wire-crossing circuit that does not use xor? (by small i mean less than 10 gates) 02:43:59 but their camoflauge is color-sensitive isn't it 02:44:14 things that want to eat cuttlefish can, i guess 02:44:19 not sure i know how we're deciding what they perceive 02:44:32 ...but then how do they know what colour to become 02:44:40 It may be done using glasses which have a picture for each eye you can then make them not only separate colors but also separate polarization, and so on, just so you know 02:44:46 kmc, well you can pick apart the eye itself i guess 02:44:49 Phantom_Hoover: By instinct, I guess? 02:44:58 'The statement about color blindness is due to a study in 'Sepia officinalis' that found no difference in camouflage in response to differences in color (see this paper). I think there are a number of holes that could be poked in the conclusions of that study, and it was only conducted on one species, so I think the statement that they are colorblind is rather premature.' 02:45:00 zzo38: help 02:45:26 anyway they are smart enough to learn simple directional cues from their environment 02:45:30 http://hermes.mbl.edu/mrc/hanlon/pdfs/mathger_et_al_visres_2006.pdf 02:45:40 so you cuold test whether they can perceive color in a behavioral sense 02:46:04 quintopia: Help with what? 02:46:22 I forget, can they be clasically conditioned? The usual protocol for pigeons involves colored lights 02:46:24 zzo38: the question i asked above 02:46:28 so apparently they don't know what colour they're camoflaging themselves as 02:46:29 hm 02:46:31 they just sort of guess 02:46:43 that says they have only one type of light receptor 02:46:47 so i guess that's pretty definitive 02:46:52 "They reported that cuttlefish 02:46:52 produced a bold coarse mottled pattern when placed 02:46:52 on red and white gravel, presumably in an attempt to 02:46:52 match the coarse patterning of the gravel, whereas 02:46:52 the animals showed an overall uniform pattern on 02:46:53 blue and yellow gravel," 02:47:53 there are even pictures of it on page 1750 02:47:58 how carefully did they establish that the two patterns were lightness equivalent to a cuttlefish 02:48:10 Now you have "fi" ligatures 02:48:18 fuck i've been thinking about human colorspaces all day and i can't even begin to fit cuttlefish into that picture 02:48:21 quintopia: I don't know the answer 02:49:15 kmc, well they demonstrated that it used the same patterns for blue and yellow squares, uniform blue and uniform yellow 02:49:32 kmc: Do we even know much about nonhuman colorspaces? Like in something easier than cuttlefish, like vertebrates. 02:49:34 and a different one for contrasting squares 02:49:55 i don't know 02:50:47 well i'm assuming someone's calculated colour spaces for the colourblind at some point so you can probably work it out for some mammals 02:51:09 wikipedia says dogs have dichromatic color vision similar to deuteranopia in humans 02:52:27 "Dogs have a temporal resolution of between 60 and 70 Hz, which explains why many dogs struggle to watch television" 02:53:02 dogs struggling to watch television is an immensely entertaining concept for some reason 02:53:07 yes 02:53:08 yeah apparently a lot of animal experiments involve specially calibrated TVs 02:53:14 i think this is my new favorite sentence on wikipedia 02:53:48 What was the previous one? 02:54:04 "Hagfish are usually not eaten owing to their repugnant looks, as well as their viscosity and unpleasant habits." 02:54:36 pretty That's a sentence good. 02:54:37 what about "Fukutsuru died in 2005, but his frozen sperm lived on for peoples benefit;" 02:54:45 That's a clause. 02:54:50 that's pretty solid [pun intended] 02:57:33 "Due to the lack of required fare, the Staten Island Railway system is popular among destitute vagrants and heroin addicts." 02:57:42 this is only funny because it was the caption on a totally normal photo of a SIR train 02:58:03 That seems kind of weird, what was the article about, SIR? 02:58:19 it was the file description on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SIR_448_at_Great_Kills_Station.jpg 02:58:26 basically just vandalism though 02:58:37 it's a true enough statement but not descriptive of the photo 02:58:39 figures 02:58:56 hagfish are one of those weird not-quite-vertebrates 02:59:13 "They are the only known living animals that have a skull but not a vertebral column." 02:59:32 also they do incredible slimy tricks 02:59:49 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrPvMMkQkk0 03:00:14 Are there known undead animals with skulls but not vertebral columns 03:00:29 "The hagfish is kept alive and irritated by rattling its container with a stick, prompting it to produce slime in large quantities. This slime is used in a similar manner as egg whites in various forms of cookery in the region." 03:00:30 korea... 03:00:56 produces a huge volume of slime, suffocating its enemies, then ties its body into a knot and pulls itself through the knot to clean the slime off itself 03:04:04 Phantom_Hoover: Don't look up bile bears sometime. 03:05:11 but bears are cute! so eating their bodily fluids isn't as weird 03:08:21 Oh, I thought you were referring to the methods. 03:09:35 i'm not especially outraged at people irritating a hagfish, no 03:12:54 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:13:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:16:29 Why? 03:25:41 -!- dessos has left. 03:25:47 -!- dessos has joined. 03:47:16 i have a special gift for you to make.. and i guess it is finally ready for it's first flight! an inertia-driven assembly of heartbreaking-space-pilot-adventure music i have collected over the years..please tell me if you feel sth is still missin in this great list..and enjoy hab4rds zauberschatzliste(tm) 03:47:19 --> http://www.youtube.com/user/zauberschatzkiste 03:47:23 <3e 03:48:48 So what's with the notation for a pullback? 03:55:03 A x_C B 03:55:12 that one? 03:55:14 Yes. 03:55:19 Why doesn't it mention f and g? 03:55:20 it's what I was saying before 03:55:25 think of it as a fancier product 03:55:49 Right, but f and g matter. 03:55:53 Where are they? 03:56:01 elliott was complaining about this yesterday. 03:56:33 sure they matter 03:56:38 not everything needs to exist in the "type" though 03:57:01 Then where does it exist? 03:57:03 record Pullback (A B C : Set) : Set where field f : A -> C; g : B -> C 03:57:11 nice, the UHDTV green primary is very close to a 532 nm green laser 03:57:18 (ITU rec. 2020) 03:57:39 resolution up to 7680 × 4320, framerate up to 120 fps 04:20:40 Do they need limits? 04:25:12 well if you are designing equipment or software it's good to know what it will be expected to do 04:25:29 consumers won't want to buy a "UHDTV" only to find out that all the stations broadcast in incompatible modes 04:26:41 kmc is an expert in ultra-high things 04:28:18 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:28:26 Well, that is true, that the equipment and station should specify what limit to use, but the protocol should not be limited in that way, and only limited in the cases of the two devices in this way that they should be *explicitly labeled* by what resolution/framerate is supported! I think that is better than just saying "UHDTV is up to" this and that. 04:28:45 highchaf 04:29:52 trippingan 04:30:01 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 04:35:03 Actually this is first time which I use __attribute__((constructor)) and in this case it is useful 04:35:23 __attribute__((hi monqy)) 04:35:46 Destructor does not seem as useful, but maybe in some case it is but I didn't know what it is. 04:36:25 Do you know? 04:36:33 is hi monqy a running joke or something? 04:37:29 zzo38: What does it do? 04:38:04 shachaf: What does what do, the __attribute__((constructor)) command in C? 04:38:09 Is that what you meant? 04:38:15 I meant ((destructor)), but sure. 04:38:22 By C I guess you mean GCCC. 04:38:31 Yes I mean GCC 04:38:51 Constructor means the function is called when the program started, destructor is done in the opposite order when the program stopped. 04:39:16 i used it for a return-to-libdl attack once 04:39:16 coppro: I think most of this channel is running jokes. 04:39:56 I am using __attribute__((constructor)) to allow all of the modules that are compiled in to be identified to the main program. 04:41:31 The function can be declared static but it still requires a name. 04:43:08 do destructors of dlopen'd things get called when main returns? what about on exit()? 04:43:25 kmc: I don't know. 04:48:02 * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers a suggestion that main in Haskell should be required to have a type of IO a, I think 04:48:16 That either it infinitely loops or explicitly quits 04:48:23 main :: Fix IO 04:48:32 I don't remember if the type to enforce that is IO a, or something similar 04:48:53 Although I guess it's really unenforcable, main = undefined 04:49:27 That counts as "infinitely loops". 04:50:32 Haskell computes that it is uncomputable 04:50:54 GСССР 04:52:05 Sgeo_: what is the other option? 04:52:19 besides terminating and not terminating 04:52:29 terminating without being explicit about it 04:52:36 main = putStrLn "Hello world" 04:52:50 oh 04:52:53 fuck that noise 04:53:17 Hello world would become main = putStrLn "Hello world" >> exitSuccess 04:53:18 Sgeo_: Sounds like the sort of thing Ada would do. 04:53:20 Or something like that 04:54:13 main = return undefined 05:01:07 hm why have i not thought about Fix IO before 05:04:57 Sgeo_: twelve hours ago, I repealed a rule in Agora. 05:05:08 Loosely speaking. 05:05:26 Is Fix IO particularly interesting? 05:05:33 FreeT f IO is probably more useful, I think. 05:05:43 s/,.*/./ 05:06:28 -!- tswett has set topic: PACZKI (pronounced like "punshki") IS ENOUGH | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 05:07:00 E.g. newtype Stream m a b = Stream { runStream :: m (Either b (a, Stream m a b)) } 05:07:08 tswett, wait, as in, got people to vote to repeal a rule, or as in did it unilaterally? 05:07:10 Well, if you used IO there, anyway. 05:08:06 Murphy incorrectly resolved the proposal repealing it; he said that it had passed, but it had actually failed. 05:08:26 I was aware of this, but I kept quiet. As far as I know, nobody else noticed. 05:08:39 So the resolution self-ratified twelve hours ago. 05:08:58 shachaf: I don't like the tuple there 05:09:04 Was it your proposal? 05:09:10 No, I think Pavitra submitted it. 05:09:13 Was there a particular motive for you to keep quiet? 05:09:22 It repealed Rule 2386 "Belligerence". 05:09:29 What was that rule about? 05:09:34 It's been a while since I Agoraed 05:09:50 It described a little subgame that nobody but me (and woggle, a little bit) was playing. 05:10:01 Ah 05:10:13 * Sgeo_ is now curious as to what that subgame was like 05:10:13 There was no particular motive for me to keep quiet about it; I just changed my mind and decided I'd rather it be repealed. 05:11:08 but your argument appears correct 05:11:13 Funny thing. The proposal said 'Repeal the rule titled "Belligerence"'. If it had said 'Repeal Rule 2386' instead, then the self-ratification would have been ineffective. 05:11:21 which means that, indeed, the rule would never be repealed no matter what 05:12:00 oh wait, never mind 05:12:04 title, text, and/or power 05:12:04 Ratification can't cause a rule change, unless the text, title, and/or power of the rule is mentioned in the document ratified. 05:12:05 misread 05:13:57 Maybe what there should be in Haskell though would be to call a IO as if it is its own program so the program will continue after it exit and have its own exit code as the result 05:15:47 -!- SDr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:17:40 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 05:24:26 Maybe what we ought to do is have a comonad for I/O (called OI, of course), and a type representing entire programs. 05:24:57 The Prelude should then have a value universe :: OI Program, and then your program has to define a value main :: Program. 05:25:03 -!- ogrom has joined. 05:26:56 comonads still confuse me :( 05:27:04 comonads are easy 05:27:17 i love them so??????? 05:27:22 Yes, I get they have an extract and no return 05:27:26 Everything will work perfectly. getLine can have the type OI () -> String, and, uh... 05:27:49 monqy = cobeaky??????????????????????? 05:27:58 Sgeo_: you know how you can think of a monadic value as a computation running within a certain context? 05:28:06 Yes 05:28:11 oh boy it's bad comonad analogy time 05:28:16 a refreshing break from bad monad analogy time 05:28:17 please dont 05:28:17 A comonadic value is a computation *providing* a certain context. 05:28:58 So with a monadic value, you need to provide a context. With a comonadic value, there's a context built-in? 05:29:17 Yeah, that sounds accurate. 05:29:49 you know what's an easy comonad? env. you know reader? you know env. 05:30:09 I know reader. 05:30:22 monqy: you know Co? that's a good monad 05:30:27 shachaf: ye 05:30:31 Co w a = forall r. w (a -> r) -> r 05:30:32 Yeah, looks like Env e a is equivalent to (e, a). 05:30:34 Co Env = Reader 05:30:38 The environment comonad has the same Kleisli category as the reader monad. 05:30:40 Co Traced = Writer 05:30:42 Co Store = State 05:30:51 And those things with Co are working too. 05:30:55 So the context here is just a value of type e. 05:31:26 shachaf: don't tell me it's possible to write a constructor called Coco that works in the opposite direction. 05:31:30 (I'm reasonably sure it's not.) 05:31:33 And extract pulls out a 05:31:35 I think it's not. 05:31:49 Hmm, tswett's monad and comonad analogies both don't make sense. 05:31:53 cocoa-coated co-cones 05:32:04 Takes the value out of the context 05:32:09 kmc: There's such a thing as a cocone. :-( 05:32:13 Isn't it a bit ridiculous? 05:32:17 Hey, we should call taking quotes out of context extracting them! 05:32:25 you mean they should call it a ne instead? 05:33:04 duplicate for trace comonad then means take two parameters which are combined using mappend, and extract for trace comonad means called the function with mempty, for one thing. 05:33:11 So, what's the co of bind, or whatever? 05:33:24 extend 05:33:25 I know there's an operation analogous to bind, but don't know what it is, or its type 05:33:32 Unrelated stupid word game: take each important word and insert "amp" before the stressed vowel, and then stress the "amp". 05:33:52 • ⇄ • → • 05:33:54 Hampaskell. Esotamperic. Mamponad. 05:33:55 vampowel? 05:33:56 With a monad you have return,bind,join, while with a comonad you have extract,extend,duplicate. 05:34:02 & 05:34:08 (fmap is the same for both, since they are both being functors) 05:34:10 Ampampersand. 05:34:28 Sgeo_: 05:34:30 :t extend 05:34:31 extampend! 05:34:31 Not in scope: `extend' 05:34:34 what!!!!! 05:34:38 zzo38: What about a contravariant equivalent of Monad? 05:34:42 Lampambdabot. 05:34:48 does caleskell really not have comonad 05:34:52 zzo38: unjoin :: (p (p a) -> p a) -> p a 05:34:57 shachaf: That is difficult. 05:35:00 :t (=>>) 05:35:01 Not in scope: `=>>' 05:35:01 Perhaps you meant one of these: 05:35:01 `>>' (imported from Control.Monad.Writer), 05:35:03 Sgampeo. Hampomestuck. Dampifficult. 05:35:06 unbelievable 05:35:09 @ty Control.Comonad.extend 05:35:11 Control.Comonad.Comonad w => (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b 05:35:12 * quintopia tries it with "vire" 05:35:13 hi 05:35:18 shachaf: can you believe this 05:35:27 monqy: imo "unacceptable" 05:35:44 I think comonads also cannot have a universal-across-all-comonads operation that supplies a null context? 05:36:00 And that any such operation is specialized per comonad? 05:36:01 Unacçampeptable. 05:36:15 I think tswett's analogies have confused Sgeo_ beyond redemption. 05:36:23 Sgeo_: I think that sounds right. 05:36:27 redampemption 05:36:28 That's it. We'll have to throw you out and start with a new Sgeo. 05:36:29 Given a value-with-context, you can remove the context. 05:36:46 But given a plain old value, you can't generally create a context for it. 05:36:48 Ok, so can I get an explanation of extend? 05:37:06 extend f w = fmap f (duplicate w) 05:37:21 I said explanation not definition 05:37:35 That's honestly a pretty decent way of "explaining" it. 05:37:39 Then the question is just what duplicate does. 05:37:46 It does not "create a copy of the context". 05:37:49 It is like a functor from the coKleisli category to the base category. 05:38:12 (Like how bind can be like a functor from the Kleisli category) 05:38:53 duplicate x :: w (w a) is that value such that if you interact with the context, and then extract, and then interact with the context again, the result is the same as if you had just taken x and interacted with the context in both ways in sequence. 05:39:17 are you trying to be maximally confusing :'( 05:39:29 So, you know that way of treating (->) Integer as a comonad? 05:39:36 Am I trying to be confusing? 05:39:40 Where it's an infinite sequence that you're allowed to shift? 05:39:48 tswett: Maybe it should be ((->) (Sum Integer))? 05:40:05 Um, I'm somewhat aware of the view of a zipper as a comonad 05:40:27 (shiftLeft 3 . extract . shiftRight 5 . duplicate) is equivalent to just (shiftLeft 2 . shiftRight 5). I think. 05:40:52 (e ->) is a comonad when e is a monoid. 05:41:01 Yes. 05:41:05 Uhh. To (shiftLeft 3 . shiftRight 5). 05:41:25 monoids are equivalent to easy things in the category of love 05:41:30 So given a context you can wrap the whole thing in another context? 05:41:45 Mm... not really. 05:42:03 Here, you should take this as your example of a comonad: 05:42:05 I guess it's kinda like splitting the context into two pieces? 05:42:13 Store s a = (s, s -> a) 05:42:25 All right. 05:42:46 I guess extract for that just feeds the s into s->a? 05:42:52 Yup. 05:42:57 (The MonadPlus instance for Either should be define in that way too, using the monoid; either by (Free (Const x)) or by (CodensityAsk ((->) x)) gives you the MonadPlus instance for free, assuming the certain way which gives you MonadPlus of Free, and Plus of Const) 05:43:06 So, a Store s a is... well, yeah. It's a (s, s -> a). 05:43:08 Sgeo_: Yes 05:43:17 Store s (Store s a), then, is (s, s -> (s, s -> a)). 05:43:33 You could make a neutral context for that quite easily... but again, probably specific to Store 05:43:39 duplicate = fmap (return :: a -> State s a) 05:44:03 I'm pretty sure that duplicate (c, f) = (c, \c' -> (c', f)). 05:44:15 That's what I said. 05:44:21 Good. 05:44:29 * Sgeo_ finds tswett's easier to understand 05:44:39 tswett's has the problem that 05:44:46 duplicate (c, f) = (c, \c' -> (c, f)) 05:44:49 Also type-checks 05:45:21 also adjunctions are the future???? 05:45:57 So if you have a Store s a, it's like it has an s, and it's about to apply a function to it, but you're allowed to play with the s and the function before it does so. 05:46:01 (shachaf begins crying.) 05:46:27 If you "duplicate" that, then you have the same thing, except now you're allowed to do that twice. 05:48:16 (Store x) is also being like (Density (Const x)) 05:48:28 Yes. 05:52:50 Why wouldn't I be allowed to do it twice without duplicating it? 05:56:02 the comonad police Sgeo_ 05:57:50 * Sgeo_ vaguely imagines a Squeak-like environment for Haskell 05:57:57 Seems... weird to think about, but 05:58:43 late binding and static typing, what could possibly go wrong 06:00:09 Sgeo_: you would be allowed to do that. 06:00:20 But now if you have a function of the type (w a -> b), you can use it without losing access to the context. 06:00:53 Or... something like that. 06:06:27 Is there a comonad corresponding to the Cont monad? 06:06:43 There's a comonad in Hask^op :-) 06:06:49 If I remember correctly, the... yeah, that. 06:06:50 If the Cont monad is the mother of all monads, is the comonad for that the son of all comonads? 06:07:01 That would probably be Store 06:07:06 There is such a comonad, but it's in the wrong category. 06:07:11 Store is related to Density in the same way that Cont is related to Codensity 06:07:22 I don't have the faintest idea what Density is 06:07:28 (As zzo38 pointed out.) 06:07:38 Density is the mother of all comonads. Or something. 06:07:44 Hm. Is every monad in a category also a comonad in its opposite category? 06:07:53 AIEEEE 06:07:58 * Sgeo_ 's brain hurts\ 06:08:07 tswett: I think that's the definition of a comonad. :-) 06:09:40 Do the state comonads in Hask^op have anything in particular to do with the store monads in Hask? 06:11:36 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:18:13 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 06:38:49 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:46:24 !!!!! 06:46:28 `smlist 06:46:33 shachaf monqy elliott 06:46:40 “important„ 06:46:58 monqy: thx monqy++ 06:48:39 monqy: can we put spoilers in here 06:48:58 because in the end it turns out 06:55:21 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 07:12:34 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:15:29 I should try to sleep some get 07:27:46 ok 08:08:17 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:11:44 Cont monad is not really mother of all monads; there is Codensity monad, and (Codensity (Const x)) makes (Cont x). 08:15:35 Yes, Codensity is the true MOAM. 08:26:15 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:26:37 -!- augur has joined. 08:30:25 `slist 08:30:28 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 08:32:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:38:22 -!- Halite has joined. 08:39:23 > let doppleganger x = reverse x; 08:39:25 not an expression: `let doppleganger x = reverse x;' 08:39:39 > let doppleganger x = reverse x in doppleganger "Halite" 08:39:41 "etilaH" 08:40:21 despite what people lambdabot may have told you yesterday, lambdabot is not quite ghci. > only takes expressions, @let only takes a declaration 08:40:42 *-lambdabot 08:40:44 I know that now, oerjan. 08:41:10 I wish they added data, so I could make a Nickname type. 08:41:26 also :t and :k work like in ghci, but only in channel for some stupid reason (@type and @kind work in private to do the same) 08:41:34 yeah. 08:41:51 it's only recently that ghci itself got data working though 08:42:06 I once attempted to make a Quantum Super-position type constructor. 08:42:41 (before you had to put that in a file) 08:45:09 I'm still working on my Quantum type constructor. What I'd like is to be able to make SuperPosition x y and SuperPosition y x equivalent. 08:45:32 does that actually have anything to do with quantum 08:47:10 Bike, yes. A qubit (a Quantum Bit) can be 1 (true), 0 (false), or a super-position between 1 and 0 (SuperPosition x y). 08:47:32 hi Bike 08:47:34 i sense a disturbing lack of complex numbers hth 08:47:45 Hi shachaf. 08:47:46 oerjan: did you see my diagram 08:47:53 shachaf: probably not 08:48:05 Halite: qubits have more than three states. 08:48:16 oerjan: I guess you'll be logreading, though. 08:48:22 Bike, what are them states 08:48:38 the various possible superpositions of |0> and |1>. 08:48:45 i am, but slowly 08:48:53 how many 08:49:06 uncountably many 08:49:55 I'm a fan of (1/2)|0> + (sqrt(3)/2)|1>, myself. I think that's a pretty good state. 08:50:11 Did you consider the ones with complex numbers? 08:50:19 Bike: nah, not enough i's 08:50:39 oerjan: "i'm a fan of (1/2)|0> + (sqrt(3)/2)|1>, myself. i think that's a pretty good state." -- better? 08:50:53 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 08:52:06 Did you consider entanglement? 08:52:10 00:51 hackage-proxy 0.1.0.0 - Provide a proxy for Hackage which modifies responses in some way. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hackage-proxy-0.1.0.0 (MichaelSnoyman) 08:52:24 What's a good one with i's? 08:52:35 kmc: You should submit a patch to insert malicious code on the fly. 08:53:08 hm 08:54:04 Halite: also (1/2)|0> + (sqrt(3)/2)|1> isn't the same state as (sqrt(3)/2)|0> + (1/2)|1>, I'm not sure why you'd think that, and this has nothing to do with types. 08:54:14 Night! 08:54:15 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:54:39 (1/2)i|0> + (sqrt(2)i/2 - 1/2)|1> perhaps 08:55:34 @tell Bike (1/2)i|0> + (sqrt(2)i/2 - 1/2)|1> perhaps, also no fair leaving just after asking a question 08:55:34 Consider it noted. 08:56:36 Maybe if you have multiple bits like sqrt(2)|0>|0> + sqrt(2)|1>|1> is that OK? 08:56:41 everything computer-rendered (text, images, etc.) are all made of bits 08:57:14 Halite: I mean quantum bits 08:57:21 if we change these bits to qubits, then we could have atleast one of the uncountably many superpositions 08:57:58 They will have to collapse once measured, though 08:58:17 (Although, you do not have to always measure in the same direction) 08:59:47 of course, there are two superpositions in my type constructor relating to true-false booleans: true 0> and false 1>, then true 1> and false >0. 09:00:02 s >0 0> 09:00:19 -!- nooodl has joined. 09:03:01 Do you even understand it? It just doesn't work that way. 09:06:24 @tell Phantom_Hoover sed -ie doesn't do what you think it does, the e is an argument to the -i 09:06:24 Consider it noted. 09:06:41 `rm bin/liste 09:06:42 rm: cannot remove `bin/liste': No such file or directory 09:07:38 `run which undo 09:07:40 ​/hackenv/bin/undo 09:07:49 `cat bin/undo 09:07:50 ​#!/bin/sh \ hg diff -c "$@" | patch -R 09:17:04 -!- carado has joined. 09:20:51 If a FSM has access to another machine which produces completely random numbers 09:21:16 flying spaghetti monster? 09:21:29 That FSM is fed a program, that only terminates, if the random machine produces a certain sequence of numbers 09:21:35 Finite state machine 09:21:58 Is it a finite state machine if it has access to such a machine 09:21:59 ? 09:23:36 @tell Vorpal also my PS3 controller on my desk random came to life and blinked the 4 LEDS a couple of times <-- probably just the google cloud trying to print 09:23:36 Consider it noted. 09:25:30 mroman: it would be nondeterministic, and nondeterministic FSMs are equivalent in power to deterministic ones. although that's not really a proof. 09:26:29 since it might not be the right sense of nondeterministic. 09:27:38 But the FSM in combination with the random machine might as well have not finite state anymore? 09:28:02 but the random machine has _no_ state. 09:28:16 Right. 09:28:24 Not in the common sense. 09:28:26 what you get is a probabilistic FSM, i guess. 09:28:36 (unless it were a PRNG machine) 09:28:54 which are pretty much what markov models use, right fungot? 09:28:54 oerjan: that we told the power. 09:28:55 but I'm going to assume that the random machine has no state other than the world it is in. 09:33:49 That's a class of FSM where it is undecidable if it'll halt or not? 09:34:59 well given that it's probabilistic, you'd get a probability of it halting... but i would expect it's calculable 09:35:10 Yes. 09:35:21 Since it only has finite state it can't accept arbitarily large random numbers 09:35:26 so not really undecidable in a meaningful sense 09:35:32 so there will be a calculable probabilty of halting. 09:36:17 in fact i'm pretty sure this can be calculated using eigenvalue methods based on perron-frobenius theory. 09:36:37 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:37:37 as in that new scoring method for bfjoust which i still don't think has been implemented. 09:37:56 hm or wait 09:38:15 it's a different problem. but still given by the same matrix. 09:38:53 -!- carado has joined. 09:39:38 oh hm no, it's really the same, it's just that the problem gives a state ("has found the substring") which you never leave once you enter it. 09:40:12 the only way you could avoid getting to that state is if the FSM has another set of states which you can never leave. 09:40:42 except that would not be a program to search for a substring. in fact if you search for a substring the probabiliy is obviously 1, really :P 09:41:36 but the more complicated problem of determining the probability of the FSM entering a given state for an arbitrary program would be solvable by such matrix methods. 09:42:47 now i just thought of this thing - what if you don't have _entirely_ random numbers, but instead get the output of a markov model encoded in another FSM (hi fungot) 09:42:47 oerjan: the corporate and public. 10. from the " let the market will be best to wait. subject: power keeps on giving you a chance of the commission 09:42:59 Fun thing is, that the probability of such a program to terminate can increase the longer it runs. 09:43:24 in that case you would have two FSM's interacting, which i think you could just merge into one. 09:44:00 I think so. 09:44:35 mroman: hm... i was thinking this ran indefinitely. if it's a set number of steps, it gets a bit different. then you would calculate that power of the matrix, rather than looking for eigenvectors. 09:44:37 If they are generated by a PRNG which is deterministic 09:44:58 in that case the PRNG itself is probably an FSM, no 09:45:37 i was assuming the markov model still had "true" randomness inside 09:45:44 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:45:53 just with variable probabilities dependent on state 09:46:32 In the case of while(rnd() != 0); it's actually fairly easy to calculate the probability of it halting. 09:47:08 (given that rnd() returns entirely random numbers in the range 0..n) 09:47:25 (and all numbers are equally likely to occurr) 09:47:27 aka p=1 09:47:47 Yeah. 09:48:09 Obviously. 09:48:41 how does that apply to programs that calculate infinite sums? 09:48:47 like 09:49:01 1/3 + 1/9 + 1/27 + ... 09:49:17 and it halts if the sum reaches 1/2 09:49:32 i would expect you cannot do that in finite state 09:49:55 I think so too. 09:50:05 I wouldn't now how to encode that 09:50:11 the sum of that is 3/2 iicc 09:50:32 it converges to 1/2 09:50:33 (1/(1-1/3)) 09:50:51 ...are you sure 09:50:51 x+1 = x*3; 2x = 1; x = 1/2 09:51:11 :) 09:51:15 oerjan: The sart value is 1/3 09:51:16 not 1 09:51:27 oh hm 09:51:34 *start 09:51:38 so idncc then 09:52:11 that calculation is done by another machine coupled to my fsm 09:52:18 my fsm machine polls the sum machine 09:52:33 which returns 1 if it has reached 1/2 and 0 if it is not there yet. 09:53:11 actually you _could_ do that in finite state if you get it as a sequence of ternary digits 09:53:19 while(otherMachineDone()) { /* Nope, still waiting */ } 09:53:25 *while(! 09:53:56 Does my fsm terminate or does it not? 09:54:20 it doesn't terminate, naturally, since that sequence is precisely on the boundary 09:55:01 it never gets a 0 ternary digit, so it cannot say that the sum never reaches 1/2; it never gets a 2, so it cannot say that it does 09:55:53 and any rational number boundary can be tested with an FSM. which may not halt if it is precisely on the boundary. 09:56:24 Ok. 09:56:36 So an argument that it'll reach 1/2 in infinite steps is just plain wrong? 09:57:00 well "infinite steps" is pretty much the opposite of halting, no? :P 09:57:05 Yes. 09:57:13 it runs for ever 09:57:17 but it'll terminate if it runs for ever 09:57:31 (if one can say that it'll reach 1/2 in infinite steps) 09:58:13 you're going to need to redefine terminate for that. also get a supply of limits and transfinite ordinals. 09:58:56 also read up on Zeno. 09:59:44 "It doesn't terminate unless it runs forever" sounds very confusing to me. 10:00:17 Zeno of Elea? 10:00:34 ah 10:00:44 the guy who claimed there's no such thing as motion. 10:00:50 argh there's even more logs after midnight UTC :( 10:01:20 he would definitely have said you couldn't reach 1/2. 10:01:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Is saying there is just one God like saying that all the water in the ocean is just one water?). 10:01:26 ok, everybody shut up until oerjan catches up with the log reading 10:01:35 THANK YOU OLSNER 10:01:43 microftedienpakseiks 10:01:58 Halite: if you say so. 10:03:08 well 10:03:26 If my FSM is infinetly fast (like math is) 10:03:53 ah well. 10:03:55 nvm. 10:04:43 monqy: i'm trying to figure out what pullbacks are in a poset category? <-- surely they're just meets? 10:07:36 i think the fact that a poset category has only one morphism between objects at most means that it's the same as the product of the two initial objects and the thirs is ignored. 10:07:41 *third 10:07:48 In quantum data, does 1 ket 0 + 0 ket 1 equal 0.5*2 ket 0 + 0.5-0.5 ket 1 10:08:15 @ask shachaf monqy: i'm trying to figure out what pullbacks are in a poset category? <-- surely they're just meets? 10:08:15 Consider it noted. 10:08:23 @tell shachaf i think the fact that a poset category has only one morphism between objects at most means that it's the same as the product of the two initial objects and the thirs is ignored. 10:08:24 Consider it noted. 10:08:51 Halite: your syntax is hard to understand. 10:08:56 (In my code I am replacing SuperPosition with my new Ket function.) 10:09:34 if i understand it, the answer is yes, anyway 10:10:01 | and > are easy to type 10:10:04 oerjan, what do you understand it as 10:10:21 monqy, the pipe character doesn't work because my keyboard is horrible. 10:10:29 1 |0> + 0 |1> = 0.5*2 |0> + (0.5-0.5) |1> 10:10:45 keep it on your clipboard 10:10:47 oerjan, that's what I meant. thank you for helping. 10:11:04 monqy, it was already on my clipboard for some reason :o 10:11:28 that's what happens when a common character doesn't work, it just ends up there somehow?? 10:11:40 monqy, but other keys don't work either such as the solidus (slash) and arrow keys, that's why I can't use question mark 10:13:01 maybe you should get a new keyboard 10:13:41 monqy, I have a laptop 10:14:27 maybe you should get a new laptop 10:14:42 monqy, but meh data and meh Ubuntu 10:14:58 monqy, the laptops you get are Macintosh or Windows nowadays 10:14:59 a usb keyboard and type on it 10:15:15 how about a USB computer 10:15:27 (the screen coming apart too) 10:15:28 get a windows laptop and overwrite it; that's what i do 10:15:49 laptops cost too much monet 10:15:51 money* 10:18:02 if your laptop isn't from “nowadays„ you might be able to find a cheap laptop that's better than whatever you're using 10:18:28 my laptop is close to nowadays 10:18:37 close enough 10:18:44 too close 10:19:14 I need the slash to join #haskell 10:19:20 or not 10:19:21 :P 10:20:06 haskell without | is going to be awkward. 10:39:07 @messages 10:39:08 oerjan asked 30m 52s ago: monqy: i'm trying to figure out what pullbacks are in a poset category? <-- surely they're just meets? 10:39:08 oerjan said 30m 45s ago: i think the fact that a poset category has only one morphism between objects at most means that it's the same as the product of the two initial objects and the thirs is 10:39:08 ignored. 10:39:12 oerjan: Right. 10:39:25 mhm 10:39:26 Arrows in limit diagrams pretty much don't matter because commutativity is trivial. 10:39:36 (When you only have at most one arrow between objects.) 10:49:57 @tell Bike "manocentric" says my internal ignorant pedant, though. <-- "manu-" hth 10:49:58 Consider it noted. 10:53:41 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:57:48 hello to you too, dear monqy 10:58:25 Halite: Are you a troll? 10:58:29 You're acting a lot like a troll. 10:58:42 In #esoteric that's one thing, but #haskell and #agda are a different matter. 11:09:50 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:16:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:29:16 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:31:13 -!- nooga has joined. 11:38:38 Halite: Would you stop wasting everyone's time? 11:42:03 Welcome to the international hub of #haskell pundits 11:42:21 yay finished the logs! 11:42:36 were they good 11:42:54 they were cogood 11:43:10 oh no 11:43:12 is that bad 11:43:24 or is it like open and closed sets 11:43:31 goobad logs 11:44:11 i think open and closed sets might be dual, so... i guess? 11:59:42 -!- Halite has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:13:10 ^ord ;~:!*()a^S 12:13:10 59 126 58 33 42 40 41 97 94 83 12:13:38 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:14:59 > sort [(ord x, x) | x <- ";~:!*()a^S"] 12:15:01 [(33,'!'),(40,'('),(41,')'),(42,'*'),(58,':'),(59,';'),(83,'S'),(94,'^'),(9... 12:15:12 * oerjan swats lambdabot -----### 12:15:49 > sort ";~:!*()a^S" 12:15:51 "!()*:;S^a~" 12:17:22 > unwords [show (ord x) ++ [x] | x <- sort ";~:!*()a^S"] 12:17:24 "33! 40( 41) 42* 58: 59; 83S 94^ 97a 126~" 12:17:39 OKAY 12:18:20 > unzip $ sort [(ord x, x) | x <- ";~:!*()a^S"] 12:18:21 ([33,40,41,42,58,59,83,94,97,126],"!()*:;S^a~") 12:18:42 shachaf: thanx 12:21:28 is thanx the dual of swatting 12:21:35 you need some ascii art for it 12:21:51 eek 12:22:18 oerjan: what category thing should i figure out next 12:22:25 topoi 12:22:43 * oerjan doesn't understand them, but is sure they are cool 12:22:46 sounds complicated 12:23:16 mr.hird thinks (∞,n)-categories are the answer to all of life's problems 12:23:16 cartesian closed categories, then? 12:23:45 maybe they are, but i don't know what they are 12:24:01 He doesn't either. 12:24:23 i suppose you could ask at the n-category café 12:24:29 I guess I should work out ends. 12:24:31 Are ends good? 12:24:51 all is good that ends well 12:25:29 also, i think you may have passed my CT knowledge level already 12:26:10 Unlikely. 12:26:14 unless you weer off into homology stuff, which requires algebra on top 12:26:36 I don't even know what homology is. :-( 12:26:40 What's it? 12:27:26 *veer 12:28:01 I bet those are pronounced the same way in Norwegian. 12:28:04 So it doesn't matter. 12:28:14 Norwegian is the best language. 12:28:25 I mean, it has the empty set in its alphabet. 12:28:30 How can you outdo that? 12:30:30 * shachaf vanishes in a puff of smoke 12:30:31 homology is basically a sequence of functors defined from topological spaces into groups. and then you generalize it to modules over rings, and stuff. 12:30:51 Oops, you had an answer. 12:31:06 Sounds complicated. 12:31:14 Is cohomology just mplicated? 12:31:18 and this tells you things about the topological space, or the rings. 12:31:38 so why do you actually care about homology 12:31:39 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 12:31:55 well cohomology means you take the dual modules at one step of the construction 12:32:20 * shachaf needs to go to sleep. :-( 12:32:21 Phantom_Hoover: well for example it gives you proofs of things like the jordan-brouwer theorem 12:33:20 which includes the jordan curve theorem as a special case (which has other known proofs) 12:34:37 basically, if you deform a sphere arbitrarily but still continuously, it will still always separate a surrounding euclidean space (of one more dimension) into two pieces. 12:36:35 anyway -> 12:43:40 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:58:37 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 13:23:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:37:29 hey, i found another terrible swede http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/18mh1p/my_favorite_song_about_doing_calculus/c8gm0ii 13:41:32 -!- azaq23 has joined. 13:41:46 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 13:42:08 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:11:16 How is it that books containing "An introduction" are usually completely useless 14:11:38 -!- esomimic has joined. 14:11:39 esomimic: help 14:11:39 fizzie: say 'mimic X' to mimic X; 'who' for list; anything else for a reply 14:11:41 There you go. 14:11:52 ok 14:11:57 mimic fizzie 14:12:09 esomimic: mimic fizzie 14:12:09 mroman: okay, mimicking fizzie 14:12:10 I forgot to mention you need to say it to im. 14:12:25 esomimic: do your work 14:12:26 mroman: i've used a lot in gnu canything only included in the possibility. 14:12:49 Hm, I wonder if the "canything" is a bug. 14:13:06 esomimic: mimic esomimic 14:13:06 mroman: sorry, don't know 'esomimic' well enough 14:13:16 esomimic: mimic mroman 14:13:16 mroman: sorry, don't know 'mroman' well enough 14:13:22 ic. 14:13:23 esomimic: who 14:13:23 fizzie: ais523 asiekierka augur bsmntbombdood CakeProphet coppro cpressey Deewiant elliott *fizzie fungot Gregor ihope itidus21 kallisti kmc lament monqy nooga oerjan oklopol olsner Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo shachaf Taneb Vorpal zzo38 14:13:23 esomimic: that will assume the first is the pulmonary injury by deal count by trader and product for the existing state plans of a message on the its board of directors on dec. 21. 14:13:24 fungot: it's following screens, sdsm for. 14:13:25 esomimic: his and your management have been a few that could make the decision on the number of our best to keep the current state of the street. tullman, ( 888) 593-4771 or ( 212) 686-6808, email the new bond language has an offer. 14:13:26 fungot: box's in six. 14:13:26 esomimic: 1. i in room eb1938 to formalize an already executed more than that of the market that would please be soooo busy lately. terminated 12.1 e prime, inc. on a thursday that the last two and a state of my and john 14:13:27 fungot: last year's details. 14:13:27 esomimic: an internet exchange for chemicals that cause of the it central website. rick causey, buy and deal entry. 14:13:28 fungot: oh. 14:13:29 Oh no. 14:13:33 I forgot about that. 14:13:46 :D 14:14:02 At least fungot has the loop protection. 14:14:02 fizzie: he recalled the critics want. settlement. 14:14:12 esomimic, mimic itidus21 14:14:12 Phantom_Hoover: okay, mimicking itidus21 14:14:22 esomimic, share some of your thoughts 14:14:23 Phantom_Hoover: 14:14:34 I think that's an "ICE BURN". 14:14:41 esomimic: Really, now. 14:14:41 fizzie: areas of an encoding of an efficient potatoes it, and concentrate, and link 14:14:56 esomimic, potatoes? 14:14:57 Phantom_Hoover: im not asking pretty cool 14:15:19 esomimic: Gimme your lunch money or else...! 14:15:19 mroman: i think thats where 14:15:36 esomimic: thats where you call the police? We'll see about that! 14:15:36 mroman: oops 14:16:04 I don't really know why it's so much more incoherent; it's done with SRILM, though. 14:17:11 esomimic, mimic zzo38 14:17:11 Phantom_Hoover: okay, mimicking zzo38 14:17:23 esomimic, what's your opinion of HTTP? 14:17:24 Phantom_Hoover: +one of a subroutine greater and you can refer that, also 14:17:25 just give him an omegle backend 14:17:34 it'll do shit. 14:20:59 esomimic: mimic ehird 14:20:59 fizzie: okay, mimicking elliott 14:21:05 esomimic: What would elliott do? 14:21:09 fizzie: enjoy 14:21:16 esomimic: Sounds vaguely dirty. 14:21:21 fizzie: i am not sure which wiki/functions how can i become a "game comes from the +or sth?" 14:21:28 (That model is a giant, it takes a while to load.) 14:21:41 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:21:48 esomimic: mimic Taneb 14:21:48 fizzie: okay, mimicking Taneb 14:21:56 esomimic: Greet your guy. 14:21:56 fizzie: yes 14:21:58 hey Taneb, fizzie whipped us up a replacement elliott 14:22:02 Oh, sweet 14:22:05 esomimic, sup 14:22:05 Taneb: it's doing 14:22:15 esomimic, what's doing? 14:22:16 Taneb: i was on, let me, one 14:22:35 esomimic, seen anything cool lately? 14:22:35 Taneb: i am aware the don't have interesting 14:23:04 He might need some tweaks. 14:23:12 esomimic: you're right! The don't do have interesting 14:23:13 Taneb: oh dear god 14:23:23 mroman, it's perfect 14:23:37 esomimic: mimic ais523 14:23:37 fizzie: okay, mimicking ais523 14:23:42 esomimic: Try to sound sensible for a while 14:23:43 fizzie: next time you are using clc-intercal 14:23:56 esomimic: ...then what? 14:23:57 fizzie: unfortunately i haven't submitted (i haven't modified well context is ridiculously slow for that sort of thing, they keep) 14:24:36 esomimic: source 14:24:38 Taneb: +it could be fun to shrink too, as i remember who it was? i guess it's a really bad puns is translated into but suboptimal but not the accumulator, it becomes whole shape drawing with a it with a stupid sure or +it isn't wikimedia-connected behaviour same as the form 14:24:55 esomimic: mimic itidus20 14:24:55 Taneb: okay, mimicking itidus21 14:25:01 esomimic, how's it going 14:25:02 Taneb: billion spend i have a mass c is fun to make. and ((s x i am already mentioned great deal be more of i saying "an image, and i thought human then it is better shot bastards")) 14:25:16 Hang on 14:25:20 All the +s are probably from the old freenode capab identify-msg thing. 14:25:21 Hang on hang on 14:25:25 esomimic: mimic itidus20 14:25:25 Taneb: okay, mimicking itidus21 14:25:29 What 14:25:36 It has a bit of nick-merging. 14:25:58 esomimic, mimic atriq 14:25:58 Taneb: okay, mimicking Taneb 14:26:02 esomimic, mimic AnMaster 14:26:03 Taneb: okay, mimicking Vorpal 14:26:07 esomimic, mimic kallisti 14:26:07 Taneb: okay, mimicking kallisti 14:26:11 esomimic, mimic CakeProphet 14:26:11 Taneb: okay, mimicking CakeProphet 14:26:17 esomimic, mimic RocketJSquirrel 14:26:17 Taneb: sorry, don't know 'RocketJSquirrel' well enough 14:26:24 It's somewhat limited. 14:26:26 esomimic, mimic cpressey 14:26:26 Taneb: okay, mimicking cpressey 14:26:30 esomimic, what 14:26:30 Taneb: posix! 14:26:34 POSIX! 14:26:40 esomimic, have any new language ideas 14:26:40 Phantom_Hoover: an what i was thinking ah ha i'm out constructing extremely but see, hurd interesting at (which may be a word as a technical them probably seems very and english make the asylum.) 14:28:44 It might be less grammatik than fungot due to srilm actually using the backoffs when generating. Maybe. 14:28:44 fizzie: at the time, on the same in the file that the modifications. light http://www.brookings.edu/ press/ review/ rev_des.htm book event: politics prose, 5015 connecticut ave., suite of energy 14:29:05 Well, that's not such a great showing either. 14:30:08 ^echo esomimic: 14:30:08 esomimic: esomimic: 14:30:08 fungot: i complicated s i want i if your mediocre brainfuck many of the out 14:30:09 esomimic: they do not have any authority on an urgency of the money.) bombay. 14:30:09 fungot: a kind of behaviour, it to entries. something. i got the normal mechanism something specify probably be friend i apologize that 14:30:09 esomimic: see the attached. 99-14563 doing that." wagner rates enron " keep you in the loop on the below: index: gas daily, find. 14:30:09 fungot: no 14:30:10 esomimic: to complete the form of the meeting.?? 14:30:10 fungot: there's got a a dir, but we'll see languages was a significant "planets" 14:30:10 esomimic: go to: http://www20.cera.com/ client/ company/ account what locations on 21 will not let 14:30:10 fungot: if i did, for example, if you ask... that's copying is (full!) 14:30:11 Sorry 14:30:14 esomimic: who 14:30:14 mroman: ais523 asiekierka augur bsmntbombdood CakeProphet coppro *cpressey Deewiant elliott fizzie fungot Gregor ihope itidus21 kallisti kmc lament monqy nooga oerjan oklopol olsner Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo shachaf Taneb Vorpal zzo38 14:30:22 esomimic: mimic fungot 14:30:22 mroman: okay, mimicking fungot 14:30:22 mroman: is the spot only the state alabama alaska arizona arkansas and lsu. 14:30:22 esomimic: in that case you will put the issue of the talk" face="verdana, helvetica, arial, helvetica, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"bfont color="cc0000" size="3"br all sales employees. 14:30:22 fungot: begrudging pat 14:30:23 esomimic: they pay the esp. to weather i've seen in a spread. commercial power representative and any representative of the price. +44 ( 20) the worst of california's/ utilities -2: not the first and will assume the first to the main source of the davis plan, giving the state 14:30:23 fungot: miizzzzaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx way to the ocean palace of irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 14:30:23 esomimic: that is not on any of the questions on the espeak site urging the company's) plan." 14:30:24 fungot: ...out of stack! 14:30:24 esomimic: what do we know the number of questions." granted the right of the as gets exercised and processed. 14:30:24 fungot: to, uhhh.......... colours i time! 14:30:43 fizzie, you may want to fix that 14:30:49 Probably. 14:31:02 esomimic: What are you doing? 14:31:03 mroman: hey fhjlkdshfkjasdasd hjlkdshfkjasdasd 0 14:31:15 i assume we were saved there by fungot's rate limiting 14:31:16 Phantom_Hoover: that we fail the credit and the fun of our earnings this quarter we have attached the new with every time we utilized our partnership with the major power plants. 14:32:22 esomimic, mimic shachaf 14:32:23 Taneb: okay, mimicking shachaf 14:32:27 what 14:32:27 esomimic, what's a lens 14:32:28 Taneb: you mean that good. 14:32:35 esomimic, I do mean that good 14:32:36 Taneb: i think it haskell get a so you're. 14:32:46 (it's not wrong, per se) 14:32:58 (its grammar is a tad dodgy) 14:33:15 `addquote fungot: begrudging pat 14:33:15 elliott: the risk of an approved site 14:33:19 964) fungot: begrudging pat 14:35:44 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:37:20 "there's also a duck are you actually want to get around it." Yeah, "tad dodgy". 14:37:53 Does it work on similar lines to Fungot? 14:38:16 It's very similar, except it uses an existing toolkit (SRILM) to do all the work. 14:38:39 And speaker-dependent models, of course. 14:39:26 Taneb: Do you think that person in #haskell is telling the truth? 14:39:48 I doubt anyone has that many hyphens in their name 14:40:17 But you should be prepared to help anyone at any time! 14:41:14 Halite reminds me of Kankri an a weird way 14:43:11 i 14:44:08 -!- esomimic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:44:20 -!- esomimic has joined. 14:44:20 Possibly it no longer the fungot. 14:44:20 fizzie: our meeting. 14:44:38 esomimic, mimic fungot 14:44:39 Taneb: okay, mimicking fungot 14:44:39 Taneb: of the deal will be at the airport. they 14:44:39 esomimic: all of the mail the original. " i lost my balance of the 20 years." 14:44:39 fungot: selected style: lovecraft (h. p. lovecraft's writings) 14:44:39 esomimic: yet the lights on.???????? 14:44:40 fungot: ( printer is eta.. 14:44:40 esomimic: all we have had the option of going on.?????? 14:44:40 fungot: (((cathedral to the west?... yes!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!!! help!))) 14:44:40 esomimic: we should know that the summer of 2000. 14:44:41 fungot: helps oerjan: oerjan: oerjan: ct (chrono trigger game script) 14:44:49 ... 14:45:03 Sorry 14:45:06 Or maybe not. 14:45:34 -!- esomimic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:45:47 -!- esomimic has joined. 14:45:49 esomimic: mimic fungot 14:45:49 fizzie: okay, mimicking fun​got 14:45:49 fizzie: that is not to... .a bunch of construction within an iso market? interface. come support the houston cougars as they held stock to the authority that is important that we 14:45:57 esomimic, can that sword alone stop 14:45:57 Phantom_Hoover: you be in cloud ventral been a time see a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... 14:46:00 That seems better. 14:46:29 esomimic: How did you know it was about Chrono Trigger? 14:46:29 fizzie: in my friends! 14:46:33 > map fromEnum "fun​got" 14:46:34 mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character) 14:46:37 > map fromEnum "fun​got" 14:46:38 mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character) 14:46:51 It's just a zero-width space. 14:46:58 fun got 14:47:38 esomimic: mimic lambdabot 14:47:39 elliott: sorry, don't know 'lambdabot' well enough 14:47:41 wow fuck you 14:47:54 I didn't teach the other bots. :/ 14:48:27 esomimic: WWFD? 14:48:28 fizzie: optbot optbot 14:48:47 esomimic: mimic optbot 14:48:47 elliott: sorry, don't know 'optbot' well enough 14:49:03 esomimic, who? 14:49:04 Taneb: i grow so tired and stiff 14:49:06 esomimic, who 14:49:06 Taneb: ais523 asiekierka augur bsmntbombdood CakeProphet coppro cpressey Deewiant elliott fizzie *fun​got Gregor ihope itidus21 kallisti kmc lament monqy nooga oerjan oklopol olsner Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo shachaf Taneb Vorpal zzo38 14:49:12 esomimic, mimic Phantom_Hoover 14:49:12 Taneb: sorry, don't know 'Phantom_Hoover ' well enough 14:49:22 ... 14:49:23 ....... 14:49:25 . 14:49:28 esomimic, mimic Phantom_Hoover 14:49:28 Phantom_Hoover: okay, mimicking Phantom_Hoover 14:49:32 Maybe it should strip some spaces. 14:49:36 :( 14:50:08 esomimic: mimic zzo38 14:50:08 elliott: okay, mimicking zzo38 14:50:11 esomimic: i'd like to see you try 14:50:12 elliott: i am using the command-line mean. 14:50:16 esomimic: good 14:50:17 elliott: i thought it has amber is for those, the server than.... 14:50:40 esomimic: You're not quite like the real deal. 14:50:41 fizzie: did you write it using the correct in category theory a disk and then assume there is a bad, so i have no. 14:50:52 fizzie: can you make it preserve caps/punct 14:51:07 huh 14:51:54 elliott: In theory I could just skip the preprocessing. Though then the models might be a bit more sparse. 14:52:09 Admittedly it's not very good mimicry when it normalizes that stuff. 14:52:29 esomimic: mimic fizzie 14:52:29 fizzie: okay, mimicking fizzie 14:52:30 esomimic: But why are you talking in all lowercase? I don't do that! 14:52:31 fizzie: you two 8-ball say "?" 14:52:49 fizzie: You did in 2002! 14:53:00 That's twue. 14:53:42 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 14:55:03 I miss 2002 fizzie. 14:58:46 esomimic: Try to be like the 2002 fizzie. 14:58:47 fizzie: obviously haven't the gnu think anyone was doing the whole lot more impressive in this dates the point in a bus. 14:59:02 Obviously. 15:00:28 how does this mimicking work? 15:00:44 badly 15:01:34 obviously 15:03:40 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 15:04:25 Who is this esomimic, and why does he mimic someone who spams X_X 15:04:46 I haven't seen any spammed "X_X"s. 15:05:44 I'm about to spam filet knives to your jugular vein. 15:06:47 esomimic: mimic Phantom_Hoover 15:06:47 elliott: okay, mimicking Phantom_Hoover 15:06:49 esomimic: hoov 15:06:49 elliott: something called try to won you don't think sense drama. 15:06:51 esomimic: hoov 15:06:52 elliott: i assume it call/cc interaction so is why would you mean the computable reals, his tower. 15:06:55 esomimic: hoov 15:06:55 elliott: it's not what? 15:06:57 esomimic: hoov 15:06:57 elliott: but i have been.. " 15:06:58 esomimic: hoov 15:06:58 elliott: he's arguing; internet talk about 5 'austerity come to think of it.' 15:07:04 Phantom_Hoover: this isnt very good 15:07:07 can you be more entertaining in future 15:07:18 austerity come to think of it! 15:07:24 c'mon i'm comedic gold 15:08:14 that was alright I admit 15:08:20 esomimic: mimic cpressey 15:08:20 elliott: okay, mimicking cpressey 15:08:26 fizzie: does this include his seminal work as ZOMGMODULES? 15:08:29 and catseye 15:08:59 It does not. 15:09:12 fizzie: can I have at least 20 refunds 15:09:17 he was catseye like half the time! 15:09:26 You can have twenty times zero monies. 15:09:39 esomimic: this better be good 15:09:39 elliott: yes. for indirection.... will vm i want for us and but and directory other formats on that languages have syntax channels stuff oh oh 15:09:41 esomimic: this better be good 15:09:42 elliott: or if it... mostly sending you expect 15:09:42 esomimic: this better be good 15:09:43 elliott: well. then i would? 15:09:44 esomimic: this better be good 15:09:44 elliott: hm can build better comparison. ok 15:09:45 esomimic: this better be good 15:09:45 elliott: you have you ever get it crash why do you mean by dismissing you know. i say you have to comic strip almost always 15:09:51 esomimic: mimic monqy 15:09:51 elliott: okay, mimicking monqy 15:09:52 esomimic: this better be good 15:09:52 elliott: i'll on them 15:09:53 esomimic: this better be good 15:09:53 elliott: sometimes people 15:09:57 aye 15:09:58 sometimes people 15:10:07 People are a sometimes food. 15:10:12 esomimic: 15:10:12 elliott: if you mean the side 15:10:14 esomimic: 15:10:14 elliott: oh right 15:10:16 esomimic: 15:10:16 elliott: surely that, i think its do that 15:10:17 esomimic: 15:10:18 elliott: those the make when fuck indentation because it's not doing what i want to find it 15:10:28 fizzie: these don't quite have fungot's charm 15:10:28 elliott: with that in mind the following ( in dth's) off of cng, cgas 15:10:35 It is true. 15:10:41 esomimic: mimic esomimic 15:10:41 Gregor: sorry, don't know 'esomimic' well enough 15:10:53 I probably should've simply used fungot's code to do the whole thing. 15:10:54 fizzie: option as ceo of this right? -----original message----- from: steve venturatos. 15:11:04 fizzie: IMO it should be able to take a nickname regexp and then generate a model for mimicking that on the fly 15:11:10 so I can make hideous chimerae of people 15:11:17 I would be CEO of Steve Venturatos. 15:11:32 `pastlog steve venturatos 15:11:47 fungot: I suppose you're still doing the Enron thing? 15:11:47 fizzie: will we. hollings will confer in connection with any decision i think we have two set on the language of the) lines not working on i 15:12:01 No output. 15:12:06 `pastelogs steve venturatos 15:12:19 oh wait 15:12:20 ^irc 15:12:21 er 15:12:23 ^style 15:12:23 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 15:12:23 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15070 15:12:33 fizzie: I hope you didn't update the irc style 15:12:36 or ruin the darwin style 15:12:49 I have not changed anything. 15:12:51 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:12:56 that's good 15:13:00 you need reliable things in this e'er-changing world 15:13:26 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 15:13:27 fizzie: so wait is that enron thing not new 15:13:39 ^style enron 15:13:40 Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset) 15:13:46 fungot, oh, didn't notice that 15:13:46 Phantom_Hoover: also on the price of 1 ( limit 2). i 15:13:49 i'm reading SICP again and playing with a scheme interpreter 15:14:16 23:41:27: fizzie, Enron? 15:14:18 23:41:57: fizzie, the electricity company? 15:14:20 Vorpal: really. 15:14:32 uh, what a nice way procrastinate 15:14:39 to* 15:14:53 any python guy in here? 15:15:10 if "python guy" means know python then yes. if it means like python then no 15:15:31 is there a nice way to convert a string to a list of char? 15:15:36 other than map(lambda a:a,str) 15:15:48 list(s) 15:15:52 elliott: Oh. Well, I mean, I have not changed any of the things that already existed. I did add that. 15:16:34 In most cases you can just enumerate over the string, though. 15:17:03 python is filthy 15:18:33 why 15:20:48 because i don't like it 15:20:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:20:59 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~enron/DELETIONS.txt 15:21:01 God I hate file modes. 15:21:06 this just makes me intensely curious as to what those emails were 15:21:15 Is there a shut up just give me a file handle open 15:21:45 open('foo') 15:21:49 (for reading) 15:22:06 @messages? 15:22:06 Sorry, no messages today. 15:22:13 lambdabot: what about yesterday? I wasn't here then either 15:22:20 r+ seems to do the trick. 15:22:37 elliott: http://sprunge.us/MIVE is one of them. 15:22:43 ais523: None then, either. Sorry! 15:22:52 :) 15:23:32 lol, the email 15:24:16 elliott: sent/205 seems reasonably similar, except to some other girl. 15:24:49 fizzie: I sense a pattern. 15:25:23 For some reason, gay-r/sent/74. is just an email about scheduling a conference call discussing someone's termination notice. 15:25:35 (Don't know why to remove that.) 15:26:35 fizzie: I guess the gay-r ones are still available for download, since it says removed 2011 but the latest archive is from 2009. 15:26:41 So the skilling-j one is the real mystery. 15:26:57 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 15:26:58 and is there a better way than reduce(str.__add__,foo) 15:27:02 to undo list(str)? 15:27:23 ''.join(l) is common. 15:28:20 elliott: The copy at work is missing skilling-j/1584 too, so can't help there. 15:28:59 elliott: And the "Agust 21, 2009" download link is actually to enron_mail_20110402.tgz so I think it actually doesn't have the gay-r ones. 15:29:26 Neat. Thx. 15:29:34 My python is so rusty. 15:29:54 fizzie: So that's what Agust means. 15:29:56 But I'm doin' Array Manipulation Stuff and I'm even poorer at that with haskell than python 15:29:59 Agust of Wind. 15:31:14 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:31:28 "Triforce is identical to [[brainfuck]] while purely using triangles, and with the addition of an operator that resets a memory cell to 0. It is not yet possible to input and store a character." 15:31:42 this… somehow manages to do worse than the average pointless BF derivative 15:31:49 But it uses triangles! 15:31:52 ais523: that langauge was made as a threat, AIUI 15:32:01 elliott: who was it threatening? 15:32:19 17:15:49: SaltScript 15:32:19 ais523, when Phantom_Hoover tried to write a Tumblr post about it, my computer crashed 15:32:19 17:16:34: what should I add to SaltScript 15:32:19 17:18:59: ok, I'll make another BF-like language if you don't listen to those developing better languages 15:32:34 (Phantom_Hoover or someone told him not to make a BF derivative) 15:32:43 Taneb, so are my thoughts on it never going to come to light 15:33:12 Taneb: you own PH's Tumblr, right? 15:33:35 Phantom_Hoover, we shall see 15:33:38 is 'irthening bad' never going to be given the rightful place in a sentence that it deserves 15:33:56 I was thinking of using disappointirth 15:34:10 that works also! 15:34:26 ais523: btw, you should bug me to update the esowiki soon 15:34:33 it's several updates behind and some of them are even security-related 15:34:56 how soon is soon? 15:35:15 ais523: well, I don't feel like doing it now :) 15:35:25 which is the problem! 15:35:31 so next time I remember and you seem like you're in a mood to do something major? 15:35:42 no, I won't feel like doing it later, either 15:35:51 which is why I'm telling you to bug me, see 15:36:02 but I don't want you to bug me /now/, because I don't want to do it 15:36:15 elliott, doo eeeeeeet 15:36:58 Taneb: you do it! 15:37:12 ∆ 15:37:12 Alas, I can not 15:37:21 ♥ 15:37:31 Taneb, update my blog then! 15:37:46 I will when elliott updates the wiki! 15:39:56 elliott, update the wiki! 15:47:16 I've gone mad. 15:48:51 http://codepad.org/nyIPsxbn 15:49:45 -!- SDr has joined. 15:52:03 Threads must manipulate each other to do stuff 15:53:02 -!- ais523_ has joined. 15:53:28 it's nice to have an OS such that your computer can overheat, crash, and restart before you ping out from IRC 15:53:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 15:53:32 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 15:57:35 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds). 16:07:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:23:16 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 16:29:43 -!- efm has quit. 16:29:52 -!- efm has joined. 16:33:34 elliott: update the wiki O KAY 16:33:46 oerjan: imo you do it 16:34:05 O KAY if you don't mind it breaking all over the place 16:35:45 also, why are there 83 people here 16:36:06 Because I have been ADVERTISING 16:36:14 oh dear 16:36:26 Taneb: have you really. 16:36:31 Taneb what have you done 16:36:43 (I have not been advertising) 16:36:54 hello guys, I'm here thanks to Taneb! 16:36:56 (well, I have, but I've caused no-one to stick) 16:37:03 Arc_Koen, you are!? 16:37:07 and I have a great idea for a new language! it has 8 symbols! 16:37:24 Is it a MIBBLLII derivative? 16:37:38 Arc_Koen: i shall assume it's an underload derivative without ) hth 16:37:58 Taneb: do you really think I understand BCKW?? 16:38:09 Is there a BF alternative for which the symbols are a, A, á, à, Á, À, ą and Ą? 16:38:17 I find BCKW easier than SKI 16:38:25 :t join const 16:38:27 a -> a 16:38:46 Or maybe a, á, à, ä, ą, ā, ã and å. 16:39:14 Gregor: I believe you should make one 16:40:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:40:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:41:21 I believe I should not. 16:41:39 some would argue you already did :( 16:43:03 Gregor: please do, I have a use for BF derivatives 16:43:27 Arc_Koen: I haven't specified the mapping. 16:43:47 Gregor: so you specified as many BF derivatives as there are possible mappings 16:43:57 elliott: do you wedge unstable furnitures with bf derivatives?? 16:44:25 Oh wow, I specified 8 factorial BF derivatives without even realizing it! 16:44:34 Gregor: you specified 40320 mappings! 16:45:03 that's gotta set a record - I don't believe anyone else has accidentally specified so many bf derivatives 16:45:21 (I wish I hadn't been so slow) 16:45:42 Actually, every sequence of unique characters in existence specifies mappings! 16:46:02 The alphabet specifies 26*25*24*23*22*21*20*19 mappings 16:46:25 Arc_Koen: ye 16:46:25 s 16:46:28 please tell us it's no longer accidental 16:46:43 > product [109990..110000] 16:46:45 28516904589671371494881311400913125079881049855168000000 16:46:51 That's a lot of bf derivatives 16:46:58 (approx number of characters in Unicode) 16:47:08 -!- mekeor has joined. 16:47:16 As well as a featured language, the site should have a Brainfuck derivative of the day X-D 16:47:19 and that's assuming we only use one character 16:47:58 It could even be automatic. Just choose at random from the BF derivatives category and barf it onto the main page. 16:48:03 We could call it the box of shame! 16:48:06 If you also have some encryption scheme such that each character is encoded by a different cipher... 16:49:23 Any sufficiently long block of text could be a programming encoding any algorithm 16:51:23 hey, this has already been done better 16:51:37 something like TMMDLPTEALPAITAFNFAL 16:51:47 (that was from memory, I probably don't have it exactly right) 16:51:53 also it's automatically better due to not being a BF derivative 16:52:05 TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL 16:52:08 and I looked it up, it's TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL 16:52:20 I was only one letter off :) 16:52:23 added an extra D 16:52:31 I just defined |V| programming languages. 16:54:43 I defined so many programming languages that ZFC suddenly became inconsistent with reality. 16:55:04 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 16:56:41 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:00:49 -!- carado has joined. 17:03:20 Well, that'll explain why my graphics card hasn't arrived yet 17:03:24 It just got dispatched 17:07:45 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:15:41 (a -> b) -> (a -> c) -> (a -> b & c) 17:15:57 (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> (a | b -> c) 17:20:59 Taneb: you might want to look up sequent calculus... 17:21:17 At the moment I'm looking up accents of the english language 17:21:24 I'll add sequent calculus to the queue 17:21:32 Time for me to check pipes out 17:21:53 Unix pipes, Haskell pipes, or plumbing pipes? 17:22:57 Taneb: hm you weren't brought to accents from wikipedia's picture of the day by any chance? 17:23:06 No 17:23:11 ok then 17:23:14 I was talking to someone in the American South about it 17:23:31 because i just had "Transatlantic accent" open 17:25:23 Haskell pipes 17:25:44 I've been pretty familiar with unix pipes for a while now =P 17:33:14 hash pipes 17:36:55 I don't smoke 17:37:17 Cigars are much nicer 17:37:27 Actually, I've never smoken hash or a pipe 17:37:40 Tobacco is nasty 17:37:53 Cigarettes are nasty 17:40:45 tobacco in general just seems like a bum deal 17:41:30 a boatload of crappy side effects for... getting relaxed? 17:43:00 -!- Bike has joined. 17:47:03 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 17:47:08 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 17:51:06 -!- const has changed nick to constant. 17:52:04 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:52:23 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:53:28 Finnish LotR. I hadn’t even heard about it existing. :-D http://youtu.be/Koj0V7G46fs?t=5m52s 17:57:31 I read that as "Finished [reading] LotR" 17:57:43 Which changes the meaning entirely 18:00:54 aah, finland 18:01:21 ion: What, you didn't know about that show? 18:01:24 That's weird. 18:01:54 It has an impressive opening. 18:07:15 -!- nooodl has joined. 18:07:27 awesome 18:10:31 i love the guy's reaction to being garotted 18:11:09 he's like "huh why is my head moving backward" 18:11:20 "oh right there's a string around my neck" 18:14:03 -!- mp98 has joined. 18:15:02 -!- mp98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:31:42 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:45:42 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 18:46:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:46:51 ion: I would watch that if the subtitles weren't in Comic Sans. 18:47:34 idea: comic sans for spoiler tags 18:47:51 Gregor, it's all part of the style 18:57:17 -!- dessos has left. 19:06:12 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:22:34 -!- Gregor has set topic: Y'ALL DON'T NEED NO PRIVATE KEYS TO PUSH TO THIS REPO | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:40:30 :t foldr' 19:40:31 Not in scope: foldr' 19:40:32 Perhaps you meant one of these: 19:40:32 BS.foldr' (imported from Data.ByteString), 19:42:38 -!- monqy has joined. 19:47:22 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:47:22 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:02:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:03:14 um 20:03:14 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:03:29 is it bad that I don't understand a thing from this: http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html#categorical ? 20:03:51 yes 20:03:54 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:04:04 why? 20:04:13 yes 20:04:25 because elliott said so 20:05:11 actually I don't understand a thing from it either 20:05:37 what's not to understand about it 20:05:42 haskell is weird 20:06:03 Well, as a junior haskell programmer (probably not even) it's pretty hard 20:06:17 I think the idea actually is that you don't understand it, until you are at the said level 20:07:06 > _head ?~ "" 20:07:08 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (t0 -> t0)) 20:07:08 arising from a use of `M26650... 20:07:14 :t (?~) 20:07:15 ASetter s t a (Maybe b) -> b -> s -> t 20:07:32 AnotherTest: nah, look at the last one 20:07:34 oerjan> :t (?~) 20:07:49 arising from a use of `M26650 20:07:52 kmc: ok, I get thatone 20:07:57 yeah, that's so meaningful 20:08:01 but I think someone not knowing haskell also does 20:08:40 oerjan: (?~) is a setter 20:08:48 > "" ^? _head 20:08:50 Nothing 20:09:04 > M.empty & ix "abc" ?~ Just 123 20:09:06 fromList [] 20:09:07 haskell is weird and its algebraic type system is even weirder 20:09:14 hm, what. 20:09:18 oh 20:09:20 > M. & at "abc" ?~ Nothing 20:09:22 :1:4: parse error on input `&' 20:09:22 > M.empty & at "abc" ?~ Nothing 20:09:24 fromList [("abc",Nothing)] 20:09:25 > "hello" & _head ?~ 'Y' & id <>~ "w" 20:09:26 Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' 20:09:27 with `Data.Maybe.Maybe... 20:09:37 > M.singleton "abc" 123 & at "abc" ?~ 123 20:09:38 nooga: I guess some stuff is weirder than Haskell though 20:09:39 fromList [("abc",123)] 20:09:43 sometimes i forget i'm an idiot 20:10:17 elliott: good that you remember now ;> 20:10:26 on this "evolution" thing, i'm disappointed by the "teaching Haskell to freshmen" comment on the tenured professor. without it, it would be a better joke of "no longer has to be pretentious", i think. 20:11:06 nooga: um i think you'll find that it's things that aren't haskell that are weird 20:11:37 i didn't say that haskell is the weirdest thing i saw 20:12:03 oerjan: that sounds like wishful thinking :P 20:12:38 like in C++, you can write function() try { } catch { } 20:12:43 I just found that out recently 20:12:53 (note you'd have to write catch(something)) 20:13:08 C++ does not exist for me :D 20:13:27 god dammit i just start looking at something slightly brain-requiring (lenses), and like clockwork the housemate makes a phone call. 20:13:36 nooga: That's like denying the holocaust. 20:13:44 what 20:13:50 yeah, because C++ is almost that bad, AnotherTest 20:13:56 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:14:01 nooga: ha you got it 20:14:11 ;) 20:14:15 oerjan, you are the only man alive who can program in Fueue, you should be able to understand lenses 20:16:24 oerjan: just play edwardk's lens video really loud 20:16:25 i can. but the house has to be quiet. 20:16:47 AnotherTest: huh? can you elaborate on that syntax? 20:17:20 oerjan: that sounds like wishful thinking :P <-- i thought that was sort of the point of tenure, at least the american version... 20:17:41 kmc: It's a shorthand for function { try { } catch(something) { } } 20:17:43 BUT 20:17:54 oerjan: I think I was trying to make some joke about you wanting to believe you could stop being pretentious with tenure or something 20:17:57 but I am bad at joke 20:18:09 when it falls off }, it rethrows 20:18:10 BUT 20:18:10 O( )KAY 20:18:15 that only happens when it's in a constructor 20:18:34 oerjan: the house has to be quiet? 20:18:36 so for a normal function, it will return when going out of scope, and for a constructor it will rethrow 20:18:58 olsner: if i am to think properly, yes. 20:19:19 try that when living with fiance 20:19:35 no more thinking 20:22:32 oerjan: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/lens/3.8.5/doc/html/Control-Lens-Internal-Bazaar.html 20:23:28 I'm sure that's the bestest starting point for learning about lenses 20:23:50 OKAY 20:24:05 i'm sure you are joking, as the alternative would require me to kill you now. 20:24:19 I'm glad to see that Bazaar has a Bizarre instance nowadays 20:24:27 that one is edwardk's fault 20:24:47 what does that class | thing mean 20:24:58 i tried finding out the other day and failed miserably 20:25:08 Phantom_Hoover: functional dependencies 20:25:12 elliott: the type/typeclass or the lens library? 20:25:15 a b c -> d e f mean that the choice of a,b,c determine d,e,f 20:25:19 olsner: both 20:25:44 i don't even try to visualize what are you talking about 20:25:50 what lens 20:26:03 yes 20:27:17 no 20:32:47 functional equivalent of reference 20:32:49 huh 20:34:23 * oerjan suddenly realizes the pun in "Bazaar". i guess because it was written out explicitly in that link. 20:34:44 -!- mekeor has quit (Quit: goo nigh). 20:35:06 :t (^?) 20:35:08 s -> Getting (First a) s t a b -> Maybe a 20:35:29 The Karkat function. 20:35:39 Seriously, what is that. What are Getting and First? 20:36:12 First is from Data.Monoid 20:37:35 All right, it's the "Maybe monoid returning the leftmost non-Nothing value". 20:38:06 (Look, a functor from Set to Mon!) 20:38:21 And Getting, then? 20:38:23 @index Getting 20:38:23 bzzt 20:38:27 aka "why the heck isn't that the Monoid instance for Maybe itself, anyway?" 20:38:52 Presumably because there's also Last. Not that that's a great reason. 20:39:05 Hey, I bet there's a natrual transformation from First to Last. 20:39:13 :t fold 20:39:14 (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m 20:39:34 tswett: Because the correct Monoid instance is Semigroup a => Monoid (Maybe a) 20:39:38 Not that that one exists. 20:39:59 Anyway: type Getting r s t a b -> (a -> Const r b) -> s -> Const r t 20:40:19 And what's Const? 20:40:45 Const r b is r, wrapped. 20:40:58 @arrrr 20:40:59 Avast! 20:41:13 So it's equivalent to r. 20:41:24 Isomorphic, even, isn't it... 20:41:29 it's used here because it makes Getting a special case of the type of Lens 20:41:33 > mconcat [Just "hello ", Nothing, Just "monoids!"] 20:41:34 Just "hello monoids!" 20:41:58 I'm starting to think something silly may be going on. 20:42:07 (also, because it's how you use a Lens as a Getter, which is sort of equivalent) 20:43:00 20:34:23 * oerjan suddenly realizes the pun in "Bazaar". i guess because it was written out explicitly in that link. 20:43:11 oerjan: lens' puns aren't quite... puns 20:43:17 they're more like excuses 20:44:03 OKAY 20:44:16 oerjan: well there is also Market and Exchange 20:44:26 ouch 20:45:27 There's a market in Hexham and there used to be an exchange but now it's a cafe thing 20:45:47 Is there also a type called Cafe? 20:46:17 the cafe s t a b 20:46:17 Bike: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 20:48:21 :t _head 20:48:23 Cons (->) f s s a a => LensLike' f s a 20:48:46 That's a pretty good one, oerjan. 20:49:32 * oerjan isn't sure whether Bike is referring to _head or his message 20:52:01 :t [1,2,3] ^. _head 20:52:03 (Num t, Monoid t) => t 20:53:48 _head is just a traversal 20:54:12 Which means (^.) needs a monoid 20:54:17 :t [] ^. _head :: String 20:54:19 String 20:54:21 > [] ^. _head :: String 20:54:23 "" 20:54:26 > [] ^. _head :: Int 20:54:27 No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Int) 20:54:28 arising from a use of... 20:56:33 :t _head %%~ pure 20:56:34 (Applicative f, Cons (->) f t t b b) => t -> f t 20:56:54 > _head %%~ pure $ [1,2,3] 20:56:56 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f0 [t0])) 20:56:56 arising from a use of `M699807... 20:57:07 > _head %%~ (:[]) $ [1,2,3] 20:57:09 [[1,2,3]] 20:57:20 ...what 20:58:04 oh right, that "always returns the same number of elements" thing 20:58:44 :t (%%~) 20:58:46 Overloading p q f s t a b -> p a (f b) -> q s (f t) 20:59:09 -!- madbr has joined. 20:59:12 I'm pretty sure that's just id 20:59:13 oerjan: ? 20:59:18 oerjan: (%%~) = traverseOf = id 20:59:18 hey 20:59:28 > _head (:[]) [1,2,3] 20:59:30 [[1,2,3]] 20:59:32 :t _head (:[]) 20:59:34 Cons (->) [] s s a a => s -> [s] 20:59:41 > _head (:[]) "hello" 20:59:42 > traverse %%~ (:[]) $ [1,2,3] 20:59:43 can't find file: L.hs 20:59:44 ["hello"] 20:59:47 > traverse %%~ (:[]) $ [1,2,3] 20:59:50 [[1,2,3]] 21:00:01 Hmm 21:00:03 "This paper also shows how Scalas type system conspires with implicits to enable, and even surpass, many common extensions of the Haskell type class system, making Scala ideally suited for generic programming in the large. 21:00:03 " 21:00:08 I should probably read this 21:00:14 elliott: thank you for answering a question i'm not caring about 21:00:24 Sgeo_: ask monqy about scala's many benefits over haskell 21:00:34 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4039 21:00:35 oerjan: well I don't see how this is related to "always returns the same number of elements"?? i'm confused 21:00:35 fuck scala fuck scala fuck scala 21:00:45 monqy, um, hm? Why? 21:00:55 does anyone know if it's easy in a C copiler to reorder the operations to group as much memory read/writes together as possible?? like, group all the math operations and conditionals together, and then once in a while do a whole group of just memory accesses 21:00:55 its just too powerful for monqy 21:00:59 he needs good old typeclasses 21:01:37 oh hum 21:02:48 Sgeo_: have you ever used scala 21:02:52 I'm working on a RISC cpu design with no cache(!) 21:03:03 I've read some Scala documentation, never really used Scala though 21:03:06 im sure you havent, because if you had, you'd know the True Heck that is scala 21:03:22 What, the piles and piles of syntax? 21:03:30 um 21:03:34 no 21:03:36 sorta like how esolangs are all about adding weird syntax 21:03:52 :t (^?) 21:03:54 s -> Getting (First a) s t a b -> Maybe a 21:04:05 I like that there's special syntax for delimited continuations. 21:04:12 haskell has that too its called do notation 21:04:38 and the problem is that when you have to do memory accesses, they have to do them on another mem page than where the instructions are, which has a penalty (3 cycles RAS/CAS access instead of 1 cycle CAS only), and then once the read/write is done, you have to load up the next opcode, which is also on another memory page and also gets the 3 cycle instead of 1 penalty 21:04:41 do notation is ugly compared to shift/reset imo 21:04:46 > foldMapOf [1,2,3] (:[]) _head 21:04:48 Couldn't match expected type `p0 a0 (Control.Lens.Internal.Getter.Accessor 21:04:49 ... 21:04:59 https://github.com/urso/embeddedmonads 21:05:01 :t foldMapOf 21:05:02 Shift/reset? 21:05:03 Profunctor p => Accessing p r s t a b -> p a r -> s -> r 21:05:06 :t foldMapOf 21:05:08 Profunctor p => Accessing p r s t a b -> p a r -> s -> r 21:05:27 I don't get those types with profunctors 21:05:29 > foldMapOf _head (:[]) [1,2,3] 21:05:32 [1] 21:05:35 finally 21:05:38 so if I did just a standard load/store RISC cpu, the alu/jmp ops would take 1 cycle but the memory IO would take a massive 6 cycles 21:05:55 > foldMapOf _tail (:[]) [3,4,5] 21:05:57 [[4,5]] 21:06:18 > foldMapOf _1 (:[]) [3,4,5] 21:06:20 Could not deduce (Control.Lens.Tuple.Field1 [t1] t0 a b0) 21:06:20 arising from t... 21:07:38 :t elementOf 21:07:40 (Applicative f, Indexable Int p) => LensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Indexed.Indexing f) s t a a -> Int -> p a (f a) -> s -> f t 21:08:26 What hapenned to simple types like [a] -> Int -> a 21:08:57 it's ghc's fault that the types look complex because it likes to reduce away type synonyms for no reason 21:09:14 > foldMapOf (elementOf id 2) (:[]) [1,2,3] 21:09:16 [] 21:09:18 oops 21:09:55 oh wait it doesn't do anything to the type... 21:09:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:10:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:11:04 monqy, what's wrong with Scala? 21:11:38 oh god so many things 21:11:40 i suggest you try it for yourself 21:11:40 > foldMapOf (elementOf traverse 2) (:[]) [1,2,3] 21:11:42 [3] 21:11:54 monqy: that doesnt really fit into the sgeo language workflow 21:11:54 scala's type system is the illegitimate child of haskell's and java's 21:13:12 > foldMapOf (element 2) (:[]) [1,2,3] -- had an abbreviation 21:13:14 [3] 21:13:28 elliott, oh come on. I've written real Haskell and Tcl programs. 21:13:51 And Ruby, once 21:14:01 Should have used Python or Haskell for that one though 21:14:34 > foldMapOf (elements even) (:[]) ['a'..'z'] 21:14:36 "acegikmoqsuwy" 21:14:40 well 3 is a smaller number than a really big number 21:14:45 soooooooooooooooo 21:14:53 Also smaller than four. 21:15:06 Bike: I'm not sure about that. 21:15:17 ) 3<_ 21:15:17 > comparing length "three" "four" 21:15:18 Sgeo_: 1 21:15:19 GT 21:15:33 I'm talking about four, not "four". 21:15:38 Obviously. 21:15:49 > comparing length "three" four 21:15:51 Not in scope: `four' 21:15:52 Perhaps you meant `Data.Traversable.for' (imported fr... 21:15:53 > comparing length "three" four 21:15:56 Not in scope: `four' 21:15:57 Perhaps you meant `Data.Traversable.for' (imported fr... 21:15:58 True. 21:16:01 And it was 3, not "three" 21:16:02 oh 21:16:03 21:15:46 @let "four" = four 21:16:04 21:15:48 :5:10: 21:16:04 21:15:48 Not in scope: `four' 21:16:04 21:15:48 Perhaps you meant `Data.Traversable.for' (imported from Data.Traversable) 21:16:06 > compare 3 four 21:16:07 I am a genius 21:16:10 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 21:16:16 So they're incomparable. 21:16:16 Hmph. 21:16:18 That's cool. 21:16:18 > compare 3 four 21:16:22 GT 21:16:27 lambdabot is inconsistent. 21:16:38 Inconsistent *and* incomplete. 21:16:44 What kind of deal did we get here, anyway? 21:17:18 > elements even %~ toUpper $ ['a'..'z'] 21:17:21 "AbCdEfGhIjKlMnOpQrStUvWxYz" 21:17:57 that reminds me of `WeLcOmE 21:18:25 `WeLcOmE test 21:18:34 TeSt: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 21:18:44 seems identical 21:19:05 > elements even %~ toUpper $ "irc.dahl.net" 21:19:07 "IrC.DaHl.nEt" 21:19:25 wait, WeLcOmE also downcases the others, i think 21:19:51 > elements odd %~ toUpper $ ['a'..'z'] 21:19:53 "aBcDeFgHiJkLmNoPqRsTuVwXyZ" 21:20:13 > traversed %@~ if' even toUpper toLower "ABCdef" 21:20:15 Not in scope: if' 21:20:15 Perhaps you meant f' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect) 21:20:23 > traversed %@~ (\i -> if even i then toUpper else toLower) "ABCdef" 21:20:25 Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> b0' 21:20:25 with actual type `GHC.... 21:20:26 er 21:20:28 > traversed %@~ (\i -> if even i then toUpper else toLower) $ "ABCdef" 21:20:30 "AbCdEf" 21:22:02 > traversed %@~ (cycle [toUpper,toLower] !!) $ "ABCdef" 21:22:04 "AbCdEf" 21:22:35 i have a hunch zipWith ($) is more efficient in that case 21:22:50 Sadly list indexing is really expensive. 21:23:00 It allocates a bunch of tuples and annoying things like that. 21:23:11 should make it use unboxed tuples 21:23:18 Can't. 21:23:22 I suspect a simple use of traversed + (%@~) gets inlined 21:23:35 Yes, but traversed is expensive even if you don't use the index. 21:23:37 ~10x 21:24:15 I mean I suspect the allocation gets inlined away. 21:24:45 How? 21:24:54 It allocates a tuple for every element of the list. 21:25:07 Remember, indexing is implemented by traversing it with something like State Int. 21:26:07 I mean when you're monomorphic on the container type. 21:27:14 ? 21:27:21 ? 21:27:38 What does it change when you're monomorphic over the container type? 21:27:57 Why does (traversed %@~ (\i -> if even i then toUpper else toLower)) have to allocate any tuples? 21:28:00 If it all gets inlined. 21:28:14 If you use it as String -> String. 21:28:18 As in fixing the Traversable instance. 21:29:11 It's still going to traverse it with State Int to figure out the indices. 21:29:20 But traverse can be inlined. 21:30:05 Right, and then what? 21:30:18 Note that you have to traverse it with *lazy* State. 21:30:32 You can't use an unboxed tuple there because then it fails with infinite lists and such. 21:35:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:35:43 Hmm. 21:36:20 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:43:50 http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/18pik4/i_am_astronaut_chris_hadfield_currently_orbiting/ 21:53:30 how funny would it be if that turned out to be fake 21:54:27 not especially, i guess 21:55:32 how funny would it be if it turned out we have people in space 21:57:58 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:00:15 :t reuse _Cons 22:00:17 (MonadState (b, t) m, Cons Control.Lens.Internal.Review.Reviewed Identity s t a b) => m t 22:16:14 :t (??) 22:16:19 Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 22:16:54 > [\x -> x*x] ?? 3 22:16:58 [9 22:17:07 That got printed out weirdly o.o 22:17:08 WAT 22:17:14 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:17:31 Phantom_Hoover: it would be funny if he made it sound like the space station was under attack by alien monsters 22:17:36 > [\x -> x*x] ?? 3 22:17:38 [9] 22:17:43 -!- EgoBot has joined. 22:18:11 maybe i should watch that terrible movie where (spoiler alert) it turns out that moon rocks are alien monsters 22:18:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:18:38 I like how the type basically tells you what the function does 22:19:12 I wonder 22:19:16 i think in this case it actually does tell you 22:19:25 > [*] ?? 3 ?? 4 22:19:27 :1:3: parse error on input `]' 22:19:33 > [(*)] ?? 3 ?? 4 22:19:35 that is, there's only one function of that type obeying the laws 22:19:35 [12] 22:19:38 Hah 22:19:39 It works 22:19:41 that happens sometimes with functors 22:21:06 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 22:21:07 > ((++) ?? "foo") "bar" 22:21:10 "barfoo" 22:21:21 (??) is a generalization of flip :) 22:21:40 @type (??) 22:21:41 Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 22:22:57 hm i shouldn't have said "obeying the laws" because that's the job of the Functor instance and not the function using Functor 22:23:26 perhaps I'm thinking of free theorems and the fact that they only work on law-abiding instances 22:25:14 (??) feels to me like something from applicative 22:28:20 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:28:24 kmc, so wait how is that a generalisation of flip... 22:29:38 It happens to be flip for functions 22:29:56 what value of f makes it into flip 22:30:09 (->) r 22:30:20 ohhh, right 22:30:34 i was trying it with (->) and getting immensely confused 22:31:42 I wonder how it works with ((,) a) 22:32:43 (c, a -> b) -> a -> (c, b) 22:32:45 only one way it can work 22:32:58 Ah, right 22:33:11 > (3, (*)) ?? 4 ?? 5 22:33:18 mueval: ExitFailure 1 22:33:18 mueval: Prelude.undefined 22:33:27 I think lambdabot is flaky 22:33:53 kmc: Well, you are assuming the laws when you say that. 22:34:05 E.g. without the laws, you could fmap id a few times and get a different result. 22:34:06 -!- aloril has joined. 22:34:25 > (3, (3*)) ?? 4 ?? 5 22:34:29 > (3, (3*)) ?? 4 22:34:32 mueval: Prelude.undefined 22:34:33 mueval: ExitFailure 1 22:34:35 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 22:35:25 shachaf: You mean "law" singular. 22:35:51 I mean laws. Though you do get the other one for free here. 22:36:08 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 22:36:21 -!- Slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah. 22:36:25 I think there are many laws you get for free that we just take for granted. 22:36:30 (So we should probably just take them all for granted.) 22:36:45 @info (??) 22:36:45 (??) 22:36:55 > (3, (3*)) ?? 4 22:37:02 mueval: Prelude.undefined 22:37:09 Why is it undefined :/ 22:37:20 lambdabot doesn't like you. 22:37:58 > ifoldMap replicate "testing" 22:38:05 mueval: Prelude.undefined 22:38:07 > ifoldMap replicate "testing" 22:38:13 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 22:38:23 > 2 + 2 22:38:25 I think lambdabot is exploding 22:38:28 * oerjan hits lambdabot with the saucepan ===\__/ 22:38:29 mueval: ExitFailure 1 22:38:29 mueval: Prelude.undefined 22:38:33 did halite do something 22:39:21 > "x" 22:39:27 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 22:42:31 > "a" 22:42:38 mueval: Prelude.undefined 22:42:50 apparently it is lispy's fault 22:42:55 all the cpu is used up by ld 22:43:02 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:43:02 linkspy 22:43:26 BAN HIM OK 22:46:36 > 3 22:46:40 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 22:46:42 > 3 22:46:44 can't find file: L.hs 22:46:47 > 3 22:46:49 3 22:46:51 oerjan: HTH HAND 22:47:13 yo 22:47:16 > ifoldMap replicate "testing" 22:47:19 "esstttiiiinnnnngggggg" 22:47:42 :t ifoldMap 22:47:45 (Monoid m, FoldableWithIndex i f) => (i -> a -> m) -> f a -> m 22:52:13 > imapM replicate "abcd" 22:52:15 [] 22:52:19 oops 22:52:27 > imapM (replicate.succ) "abcd" 22:52:30 ["abcd","abcd","abcd","abcd","abcd","abcd","abcd","abcd","abcd","abcd","abc... 22:53:38 > (3, (3*)) ?? 4 22:53:40 (3,12) 22:53:42 Yay 22:53:52 > (3, (*)) ?? 4 ?? 5 22:53:54 (3,20) 22:54:41 :t flip (,) 22:54:42 b -> a -> (a, b) 22:55:47 :t flip (,) $ 3 22:55:48 Num b => a -> (a, b) 23:01:02 I wonder how difficult sustained terrestrial microgravity would be. 23:01:28 I.e. build an evacuated magnetic levitation tube going all the way around the earth, and accelerate a vehicle within it to the appropriate speed. 23:07:51 Presumably, you'd want the tube to go over as little water as possible. 23:11:20 build it underground? 23:11:25 probably have to be too deep 23:23:47 It wouldn't be worth it 23:23:59 define "worth it" 23:27:26 > replicate "a" 23:27:28 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int' 23:27:28 with actual type ... 23:27:45 > replicate 2 23:27:46 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> [a0])) 23:27:47 arising from a use of `M388... 23:29:11 > replicate 2 2 23:29:13 [2,2] 23:29:14 > replicate 2 2 23:29:15 [2,2] 23:29:29 lol 23:30:01 > replicate -1 2 23:30:03 Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> GHC.Types.Int -> a -> [a])) 23:30:03 arising... 23:30:18 awww 23:31:37 > replicate 200 $ replicate 200 "wee" 23:31:38 [["wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","wee","... 23:31:43 meh 23:31:53 wee 23:32:03 Phantom_Hoover: ps its (-1) 23:32:05 go on 23:32:33 only 384 wees to go 23:32:39 > replicate (-1) 2 23:32:41 [] 23:33:09 sorry, 387 23:33:27 elliott, that seems kind of weird 23:33:54 replicate -1 2 is (replicate - 1) 2 23:34:17 yeah 23:34:37 i'm just surprised i hadn't heard of it before, it seems Kind of a Big Deal 23:35:02 > negate 2 23:35:04 -2 23:35:36 This is why J > Haskell 23:36:05 haskell has almost no syntax 23:36:18 No, haskell has plenty of syntax 23:36:31 lisp has almost no syntax 23:36:35 and it makes weird things with operators and infix context 23:37:25 FreeFull: haskell looks the same but with indentation instead of parens 23:37:42 to me 23:37:45 * Sgeo_ thinks that macros count as syntax 23:37:58 lisp has plenty of syntax 23:38:00 Syntax that can be added, but still syntax 23:38:00 haskell does have stuff like case and guards 23:38:02 Haskell has little syntax 23:38:07 compared to most language 23:38:08 *s 23:38:09 is it (let (x 3) (y 4) ...) or is it (let ((x 3) (y 4)) ...) ? 23:38:18 kmc: latter 23:38:20 the latter 23:38:22 hint: CL does one and Scheme does the other 23:38:28 oh 23:38:30 oh right 23:38:32 i thought that was a sincere question 23:38:32 that's syntax 23:38:33 i was confused 23:38:35 elliott, that was just to point out that that's a syntax question 23:38:35 (i didnt read context) 23:38:39 lol 23:38:44 abstract syntax is still syntax 23:38:45 who uses common lisp anyway 23:38:51 that concludes your canned rant 23:38:57 the more i read about common lisp the more i hate it 23:39:11 scheme looks more pleasant 23:39:12 * Sgeo_ wonders if there's anything that kmc could say that I would disagree with. 23:39:22 nooga: obviously you're just an idiot drone because CL programmers are 50x more productive and sexy and the proof of this is hiding... right over here 23:39:26 * kmc runs off 23:39:27 "second life sucks" 23:39:37 scheme is more pleasant... but there's less stuff in it? "who uses lisp anyway" 23:39:40 i hear the second life programming language is the worst 23:39:48 kmc, can't disagree with that. 23:39:55 huh 23:40:02 "the only good thing to come from activeworlds was shamus young" 23:40:04 Sgeo doesn't like any programming languages 23:40:05 i knew a guy who did behavioral econ experiments in SL and that was his conclusion 23:40:11 nor does elliott, but possibly for different reasons? 23:40:34 i think elliott likes haskell!! 23:40:37 sometimes I like some programming languages 23:40:40 nooodl: not really 23:40:43 There is no programming language that has 0 syntax 23:40:44 well i mean it's okay 23:40:53 if lisp has almost no syntax then lisp is just a language for specifying trees, not a language for specifying programs 23:40:54 FreeFull, sure there is? Well, hmm. 23:41:06 The language where every program means do nothing. 23:41:28 All possible strings are legal programs in this language. 23:41:31 then the syntax is "every program does nothing" 23:41:31 Or does that count as syntax? 23:41:55 This sounds like philosophy 23:42:02 nooodl, how is that different from a language with 0 syntax 23:42:14 i'm not going to claim that there's a perfectly sharp line between syntax and semantics, but i think any definition of "semantics" which includes the number of parens in let is designed for winning arguments rather than understanding things 23:42:47 Esolang idea: Esolang where that sort of thing is... now I'm confused 23:42:56 i'd like a language with minimal syntax that could change itself freely in runtime 23:42:59 Something to push it into more distinctly semantic territory... somehow 23:43:08 nooga, I've seen something like that 23:43:08 i think i prefer scheme's way, because a) it seems more regular, and b) it allows an implicit begin/progn 23:43:11 nooga: TeX 23:43:20 tex is distorted lisp 23:43:22 I don't mean TeX 23:43:49 TeX is a language where a string can do everything 23:43:52 kmc: Which one of those is supposed to be Scheme? 23:43:54 Wait, no 23:43:58 not TeX 23:44:00 It looks to me like it's the latter for both of them. 23:44:01 shachaf: (let ((x 3) (y 4)) ...) 23:44:05 (I know that's beside the point.) 23:44:09 kmc: it's interesting that scheme has the implicit progn, for being the less imperative language 23:44:11 sorry, "both of them"? 23:44:18 oh hmm 23:44:23 Sgeo_: i think that Ian Piumarta showcased something like that 23:44:28 Both CL and Scheme use the latter 23:44:47 elliott: yeah although i'm not sure if scheme is "really" less imperative or if it's just that most people who have learned any Scheme learned it in intro CS while most people who have learned CL have written a "real" program in it 23:45:05 oh i may be mistaken 23:45:16 i think i'm thinking of clojure for the former 23:45:23 Ah. 23:45:29 Clojure is (let [a 1 b 2] ...) 23:45:30 oh clojure does (let [x 1 y 2] ...) 23:45:35 even differenter 23:45:58 I kind of like it, the [] is expected to be used in different places and with a different vague meaning than () 23:45:59 Phantom_Hoover: well, it's a rule that tells you something about which programs are valid 23:46:15 Sgeo_: is the difference observable past the reader stage? 23:46:23 Why do Scheme/CL do the double-parentheses thing, anyway? 23:46:27 kmc, yes 23:46:35 kmc: Yes, [] is a vector 23:46:45 so there's some predicate which tells you whether a given quoted s-expr was made with [] or ()? 23:47:05 it's gross to not have two parens 23:47:10 you're sacrificing structure 23:47:15 and making it implicit instead 23:47:22 a language with 0 syntax would be one where valid programs don't exist at all, maybe. but arguably "valid programs don't exist" is also a syntax rule 23:47:31 kmc, yes, there exists such a predicate, but the difference goes beyond that 23:47:32 which means e.g. it's harder to see the structure from the parens (the literal whole point), indentation/alignment/etc. become less simple 23:47:40 [+ 1 2] does not do (+ 1 2) 23:47:41 program trnasformation is harder 23:47:42 & so on & so forth 23:48:16 [] gets read as a vector, which is a different data structure, and there are predicates to find out exactly what data structure 23:48:49 &[+ 1 2] 23:48:49 ⇒ [# 1 2] 23:49:30 i read "literal white point" and was confused 23:49:50 vectors have fast random access yeah? 23:49:59 fandom access 23:50:09 it seems weird to say "function argument should be specified by a structure with fast random access" solely for syntactic reasons 23:50:12 but okay 23:54:50 Florida Man Too Fat For Jail 23:54:55 guess what he was arrested for 23:55:11 damage to property? 23:55:19 stealing food 23:56:38 is he literally too big to fit in the cells or sth 23:57:03 http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2010/04/florida_man_too_fat_for_jail.php 23:57:22 this is courtesy https://twitter.com/_FloridaMan of course 23:57:23 yikes 23:57:46 "Jolicur avoided jail because it would be too expensive to house him... The cost of bringing him to trial alone would be thousands of dollars." 23:58:21 Florida Man Accidentally Dials 911 While Trying To Call Tech Support, Gets Busted For Marijuana Grow Operation