00:01:16 <HackEgo> cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol
00:02:03 * oerjan gives Sgeo a gentle poke
00:02:28 <Sgeo> Hopefully not of death
00:02:32 <oerjan> THIS IS NOT THE `LIST YOU ARE LOOKING FOR
00:03:11 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
00:03:15 <Sgeo> I wanted to be sure no unwanted names snuck on it
00:03:41 <Bike> just sgeo three times
00:04:00 <Sgeo> "i'm only on there twice?"
00:04:20 <Bike> not any more you aren't
00:04:30 <Bike> `run echo $(which list)
00:04:39 <Bike> wow that was dumb
00:04:42 <Bike> `run cat $(which list)
00:04:46 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ oldpwd=`pwd`; cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; name=$(cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | tail -1 | sed "s/[^<]*<//; s/>.*//; s/.*\* //; s/ .*//"); cd $oldpwd; fgrep -q "$name" bin/list || echo -n "$name " >> bin/list; echo cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol
00:05:05 <Bike> oh, it has a check
00:05:25 <Sgeo> doesthiswork, it's not perfect
00:06:07 <Bike> list? adds whoever's running it to itself
00:06:38 <olsner> ah, echo -n >> file doesn't add a newline so it ends up adding to the last line of the script?
00:07:18 <olsner> rather than adding a new line (which I think the script is lacking some code to handle)
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00:21:26 <olsner> hmm, what was it that went in the bit left over by UTF-63?
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00:24:25 <Sgeo> olsner, are you talking about http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2001-m05/0425.html ?
00:25:00 <Sgeo> Distinguishes between ASCII and Unicode
00:25:55 <olsner> although (2^64)/(1114111^3) is actually 13.34, so there's a lot more than a bit left over
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00:27:28 <olsner> Sgeo: that's very similar to what I was talking about but not it
00:28:10 <oerjan> > 2^64/1114111^3 :: Double
00:28:38 <olsner> I wonder if there are unicode squiggly numerals to indicate approximations
00:29:20 <oerjan> > 2^64/1114112^3 :: Double
00:29:26 <oerjan> > 2^64/1114112^3 :: Rational
00:31:12 <Bike> combining squiggle above
00:32:35 <kmc> olsner: hm let's reserve it for pointer tagging
00:33:10 <kmc> we can have a language with heap pointers and primitive triples-of-unicode-codepoints as the basic datatypes
00:33:32 <olsner> apparently 10fffe and 10ffff are noncharacters (and so are xxfffe/ff for all the other planes)
00:33:52 <olsner> > 2^64/1114110^3 :: Rational
00:33:54 <lambdabot> 2305843009213693952 % 172859889139941375
00:34:04 <olsner> > 2^64/1114110^3 :: Double
00:34:16 <kmc> also U+D800 through U+DFFF
00:37:17 <olsner> ah, of course, 4913 is 17^3
00:38:26 <kmc> the secret illuminati numerology in unicode
00:38:29 <olsner> you can use 16 bit per character plus a somewhat compact encoding of the plane for each, and then have 64k/17^3 values left to play with
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00:56:49 <zzo38> I dreamt about a very strange chess variant, with multiple boards, each piece having four stats (strength, defense, intelligence, and teleport token), if your high priest entered your opponent's church then you gained control over eclipses, and there were various other rules
00:57:23 <Bike> control over eclipses sounds kickass
00:59:20 <zzo38> Also, pawns promoted into royalty
01:08:08 <zzo38> A lot of these things I don't know.
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01:16:15 <zzo38> What I did know is that if any of the stats other than teleport token reach zero, the piece is removed from the game.
01:16:45 <zzo38> Otherwise, all of them (including teleport token) which are damaged will recover by one point at the end of each frame.
01:20:03 <Sgeo> I want to learn how to play continuous chess
01:20:30 <zzo38> I don't know exactly, but you can teleport from one board to another, if you have the correct terrains on the board (maybe eclipses affects it too, I don't know for sure)
01:21:37 <quintopia> make it the maximum number of spaces you can move
01:22:51 <zzo38> No, the movements have to do with what kind of pieces it is (like in chess); I think intelligence has something to do with what cards you can play, or something related to that
01:23:19 <zzo38> Actually I think strength and defense also have something to do with what cards you are allowed to play
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01:27:57 <Sgeo> Ok, where can I read them?
01:28:00 <Phantom__Hoover> although with a new revision, you can now move all your pawn as one
01:28:32 <Sgeo> I will love you forever if you write them up
01:28:57 <Sgeo> (note: some/all of prior statement may be hyperbole or falsE)
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01:39:45 <Phantom__Hoover> i give no guarantees that you will be able to make any sense of this
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05:25:50 <kmc> it's perverse that, when buying a SSL cert, you have no direct incentive to pick a CA with good security practices
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05:27:23 <kmc> if CA compromise implied customer compromise, would that actually be better for society?
05:27:30 <kmc> probably not because most cert buyers are clueless
05:27:35 <madbr> trace execution (when you have N extra RISC cores replicating what the first core did and you space memory IO so that only one core is really using it at the same time) needs instruction cache :(
05:27:46 <kmc> "wow gee 1024 bits"
05:27:55 <kmc> "twice as secure as 512"
05:29:12 <kmc> madbr is on a mission to eliminate caches
05:29:27 <madbr> or else once you do a memory op, that's like multiple memory ops
05:29:46 <madbr> and you can't keep your pipeline full unless you have the next instructions cached somewhere :(
05:31:22 <madbr> kmc : no cache = easier no? :D
05:34:26 <madbr> actually you could probably do a design without cache but if you have 8 units it stalls for 7 cycles every time you load something
05:38:18 <Bike> this is some impressively dated humor
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05:44:34 <Sgeo> The VP developer's response to "Any chance of documenting the protocol so I don't have to do C interop" is "Feel free to reverse-engineer the protocol"
05:45:01 <Sgeo> (not literal phrasing of response)
05:45:17 <Sgeo> Virtual Paradise
05:45:33 <Sgeo> It's a sort of AW clone
05:48:03 <Sgeo> I don't think he'd be willing to open-source even the SDK
05:48:16 <Sgeo> If he was, I wouldn't mind so much
05:48:25 <Sgeo> Well, he did give a bit of documentation
05:48:44 <Sgeo> " It's TCP, it sends a 16 bit unsigned int containing the length of a message followed by the message itself. The first byte in the message is the message type "
05:49:02 <Sgeo> Which I guess helps a little
05:50:56 <kmc> use KLEE to extract a protocol from the C library
05:51:00 <kmc> write PhD thesis
05:52:48 <shachaf> extract a PhD thesis from the C library directly
05:55:50 <shachaf> I get spam like that sometimes.
05:56:09 <kmc> a degree mill with a REST API
05:56:12 <kmc> that would be something
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05:56:57 <Bike> hm, the squamish language uses 7 as a glottal stop. and it's not a glyph that looks like a seven, it is in fact a seven
05:58:04 <madbr> typewriter orthography
05:58:48 <madbr> I think huron has "8" (actually a modern version of the greek "ou" ligature)
05:59:43 <Bike> american languages are the best, man
05:59:54 <Bike> have you seen inukitut orthography? that shit is choice.
06:00:08 <Bike> i remember cherokee using like, a backwards B
06:01:11 <pikhq> Literally by a guy who only *saw* writing before.
06:01:27 <madbr> but later on they replaced Zhuang 2,3,4,5,6 with z,j,x,q,h
06:01:57 <Bike> where is zhuang spoken?
06:02:16 <kmc> a lot of these languages were not written until fairly recently yeah?
06:02:29 <madbr> it's in the same family as thai
06:02:49 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, North American languages largely have *recent* writing systems.
06:03:07 <pikhq> There just weren't that many writing systems pre-Europeans.
06:03:16 <Bike> cherokee's alphabet was developed by a missionary i think?
06:03:19 <kmc> what determines whether a group of people develop writing or not
06:03:20 <Bike> or was it a newspaper
06:03:47 <Bike> invented by sequoyah, well now
06:03:47 <madbr> bike: no that's inuit
06:04:00 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Zhuang#Example
06:04:01 <kmc> "Latin script"
06:04:03 <kmc> yeah right
06:04:04 <Bike> "his was the only time in recorded history that a member of a non-literate people independently created an effective writing system." baller
06:04:10 <madbr> and the inuit one was originally developed for cree
06:04:10 <pikhq> Sequoyah was a Cherokee man who *saw* writing, thought it was a good idea, and made a writing system for Cherokee.
06:04:23 <Bike> that is awesome.
06:04:27 <Sgeo> "in recorded history"
06:04:42 <Sgeo> I suppose the earliest writing systems are on the edge of that
06:04:43 <Bike> what's wrong with that phrase?
06:05:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's generally believed most other writing systems evolved out of proto-writing, rather than being wholy invented.
06:05:08 <Bike> writing systems were developed rather a long time before history we still have is
06:05:33 <kmc> does written cherokee count as a conlang then
06:05:42 <pikhq> This is certainly what we see with e.g. Chinese script.
06:05:51 <pikhq> Which evolved basically out of a divination system.
06:05:58 <Bike> kmc: definitely a conscript.
06:05:58 <madbr> I can't remember what's the current status on phoenician vs egyptian vs cuneiform
06:06:08 <Bike> What do you mean the current status?
06:06:20 <Bike> kmc: and he hadn't even read zompist!
06:07:08 <madbr> well, what the currently accepted reseach says on how they were invented
06:07:10 <Slereah> You know who else wrote a script for savage people?
06:07:32 <madbr> oh yeah he came up with glagolithic no?
06:07:46 <Slereah> As far as I know the current theory is that cuneiform developed from a tally system?
06:07:48 <madbr> which then got turfed out by a souped version of greek
06:07:59 <Bike> my favorite proto-writing is definitely the incan knots
06:08:14 <Slereah> Egyptian I think is unknown
06:08:22 <madbr> I think the current theory says that phonician was inspired by egyptian
06:08:28 <Slereah> It's not even known if there's a primitive form of egyptian
06:08:34 <Slereah> Or if it was created like that, bam
06:08:43 <Bike> wasn't it given to them by thoth
06:09:10 * Bike learned Egyptian history from vague classicism
06:09:41 <madbr> zhuang had its own version of chinese characters before they switched to latin
06:09:45 <Slereah> Egyptian is still pretty spotty in places
06:09:55 <Bike> madbr: I thought everything in the general area did.
06:09:56 <Slereah> The phonological reconstruction is pretty hard
06:10:04 <Bike> Like Vietnamese.
06:10:06 <Slereah> Although it has progressed a lot by looking at loans
06:10:25 <Slereah> Like how egyptians wrote foreign words and vice versa
06:10:40 <Slereah> Also coptic is descended from egyptian, so it helps
06:10:52 <pikhq> Bike: The degrees to which they were "their own" varied though.
06:11:26 <Slereah> (Although coptic itself is mostly extinct, so that's another problem)
06:11:29 <Bike> pikhq: you mean the use of hanzi? yeah, i suppose a lot of it was by imperial edict
06:11:47 <Bike> oh, Zhuang is spoken in Guanxi, didn't they have that massive earthquake last year?
06:12:16 <pikhq> Varying from "whole-sale adoption of the script" to "using the radicals to invent brand new characters" to "taking the concept, clearly having no idea what the radicals are, and making shit up".
06:12:24 <Bike> oh, well yeah.
06:12:53 <Bike> None of Japanese or Korean or Vietnamese are even Sino-Tibetan, are they?
06:13:50 <pikhq> Of those, Japanese and Korean use/used hanzi straight, while Vietnamese used the radicals to invent new characters.
06:13:53 <Bike> and i seem to remember kanji having different readings, based on a vaguely Chinese meaning map and a vaguely Japanese one
06:14:04 <Bike> on/kun or something?
06:14:31 <Bike> yeah, on'yomi and kun'yomi i guess
06:14:45 <pikhq> What's *great* is Tangut script.
06:14:55 <Bike> But... that's pronunciation and not meaning, huh.
06:15:06 <Bike> The more I learn about Japanese the more amazed I am anyone can figure it out...
06:15:41 <pikhq> Tangut used the *concepts* of Chinese script, and made it all up from there.
06:16:14 <pikhq> It's like someone saw Chinese once.
06:16:34 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bushell's_1896_decipherment_of_Tangut_characters.jpg Fucking crazy.
06:16:39 <Bike> The [Tangut] language is remarkable for being written in one of the most inconvenient of all scripts, a collection of nearly 5,800 characters of the same kind as Chinese characters but rather more complicated; " i love it
06:17:20 <Bike> What, those are numbers?
06:17:23 <pikhq> 日本語はこんなに難しくないと思うんだって……
06:17:30 <Bike> eleven strokes for the number four?
06:17:56 <pikhq> Though I'm only counting 10.
06:18:01 <kmc> i guess chinese wasn't complicated enough?
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06:18:16 * Bike doesn't know how to count strokes
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06:18:58 <pikhq> It's a tiny bit hard to do with Tangut, because some of those strokes are fucking *strange*.
06:19:18 <pikhq> (how many strokes is that set that looks like ろ, anyways?)
06:19:24 <madbr> annihilated by genghis khan
06:20:17 <pikhq> I'm a bit amazed at the complete lack of pictographs.
06:20:48 <pikhq> Most of the really basic Chinese glyphs are pictographic in origin.
06:21:14 <Bike> I want to know how this Renrong guy came up with this. What was wrong with the Chinese numerals, for instance?
06:21:22 <pikhq> Though the pictographicness of stuff like 馬 or 虎 is hard to tell.
06:23:48 <Bike> oh nice, the vietnamese had a sort of dialect of Chinese script for writing Chinese, and then their own Chinese script for writing Vietnamese.
06:24:28 <doesthiswork> http://www.csd.uwo.ca/staff/magi/personal/humour/Computer_Audience/polyglot.%5Bcob|pas|f77|c|ps|sh|com%5D.html
06:24:52 <kmc> yeah that's a classic
06:24:53 <Bike> Are any of them Burman?
06:25:02 <Bike> nice comment delimiters
06:25:20 <kmc> someone here (Gregor?) wrote a crazy polyglot
06:26:27 <kmc> i did a shell/python/haskell/c/com/brainfuck one
06:26:35 <kmc> which is pretty short
06:26:53 <Bike> I liked that one where you ran it in Ruby and got a C program out, and then ran that and got a shell proram, or whatever, and so on.
06:27:06 <Sgeo> How about a polyglot in esolangs that have no comments?
06:28:09 <Bike> you could probably make a brainfuck/befunge polyglot pretty easily, insofar as befunge lacks comments
06:28:12 <madbr> kinda wonder what programming would look like if it was invented by ppl that speak tonal languages
06:28:28 <kmc> i should shove C++ in too
06:28:36 <Bike> why would pronunciation matter?
06:28:42 <madbr> would probably all be stack based if it were invented by people that speak verb final languages :D
06:28:51 <kmc> oh right, can't easily
06:28:59 <madbr> bike : the character set would definitely be different
06:29:14 <Bike> what if they spoke a tonal language that uses the latin alphabet, huh??
06:29:28 <kmc> probably the most unpleasant thing about my polyglot is that it needs to start with a blank line
06:29:31 <madbr> like vietnamese? hm
06:29:54 <pikhq> Knowing how programming goes, the character set regardless of whatever it was would be hacked together and *just enough* to represent language, to start with.
06:30:09 <Bike> i don't thing how your natural language is pronounced is going to influence the basic ideas of recursive grammars
06:30:13 <Bike> but i'm not a linguist.
06:30:17 <madbr> might have just come up with sometehing like C but where tone marks count as part of identifiers
06:30:18 <pikhq> I'm imagining a crazy thing like Chinese script with *one* character of each pronunciation.
06:30:27 <pikhq> So you just use it as a god-damned weird syllabary.
06:30:46 <pikhq> Of course, Japanese folk would just shove in katakana.
06:30:48 <madbr> chinese used to be closer to that I think
06:31:00 <pikhq> madbr: Chinese script is still syllabic in nature.
06:31:03 <madbr> but then with time some characters became homophones
06:31:16 <pikhq> Each glyph is still exactly one syllable.
06:31:18 <madbr> yeah but there are a lot more homophones now
06:31:37 <pikhq> Yeah, but not as many as in Japanese.
06:31:41 <Bike> It's also hard to draw conclusions about natural language -> formal language... I mean all European languages I know of are SVO but mathematical notation is pretty verb-initial, so to speak.
06:32:07 <madbr> supposedly classic chinese had about 5000 different syllables, down to about 3000 in cantonese, and down to 1200 in mandarin
06:32:16 <pikhq> madbr: Are you accounting for tones?
06:32:23 <Bike> is that even phonologically possible- oh, tones
06:32:25 <madbr> without tone mandarin is 400
06:32:41 <madbr> bike: english has like 5000+ syllables too
06:32:59 <pikhq> For comparison, Japanese has maybe 80 possible morae.
06:33:13 <pikhq> Yeah, English has a shit-ton of syllables.
06:33:17 <pikhq> Consonant clusters.
06:33:27 <pikhq> Remember, "strengths" is a single syllable.
06:33:38 * Bike bad at phonetics :(
06:34:49 <madbr> yeah english tends to be dense
06:35:02 <madbr> due to so many consonant + vowel + consonant syllables
06:35:25 <pikhq> And consonant clusters are entirely permissible, which adds to it.
06:35:47 <pikhq> And moderately unusual consonants.
06:35:51 <madbr> doesthiswork : yeah but so do other northwestern european languages
06:35:51 <doesthiswork> and since that is a tigher limit raising it has the bigger effet
06:36:00 <pikhq> (though I don't think it's got too many consonants *in and of itself*...)
06:36:07 <madbr> pikhq: nah, the consonant inventory is actually pretty standard
06:36:16 <madbr> except for th and the weird variety of r
06:36:32 <pikhq> madbr: th and th are both pretty weird.
06:36:45 <pikhq> Fuck it, þ and ð. There, that's better.
06:36:56 <madbr> yeah but they're like only 2 sounds
06:37:06 <kmc> icelandic 4 lyfe
06:37:20 <madbr> and the rest of the consonant inventory is like a list of all the most common consonants in the world
06:38:02 <pikhq> doesthiswork: þ and ð are how you write them in (hilariously old) Germanic languages. :P
06:38:28 <kmc> i had a math prof who wrote the days of the week as MTWΘF
06:38:48 <zzo38> kmc: Not bad, that way you know the difference each one
06:38:59 <kmc> i like it too :)
06:39:00 <madbr> what did he do for saturday/sunday
06:39:06 <kmc> i don't think it came up
06:39:38 <zzo38> (I have also seen "R" for Thursday sometimes; it can be used in case you are using only English alphabets, for whatever reason)
06:39:41 <kmc> i don't know how you would spell those english words using greek orthography
06:39:51 <kmc> yeah, R is okay
06:40:16 <kmc> sadly I don't think contemporary english has any words containing þ
06:40:26 <kmc> even though we still have umlauts and diacritics in a few places
06:40:40 <pikhq> Yeah, þ died with the printing press.
06:40:43 <kmc> the þs turned into ys or something
06:41:08 <doesthiswork> when you write trhorn really sloppy it looks like y
06:41:15 <pikhq> 日月火水木金土 Man, CJK has it easier.
06:42:02 <kmc> i wonder how to type ð with compose key
06:42:06 <kmc> i can do đ but it's not the same
06:42:23 <Bike> i just do altgr-d like a sensible person
06:42:34 <kmc> do i really need compose *and* altgr?
06:42:39 <kmc> i could add it to my compose file
06:43:01 <madbr> pikhq: that's japanese
06:43:10 <madbr> chinese has 1-7 :D
06:43:23 <pikhq> madbr: Chinese used to do that too.
06:43:36 <pikhq> 1-7 is a 20th century thing.
06:43:36 <madbr> or was it 1-6 with a special one of 7
06:43:57 <madbr> yeah but they gave up on names... that would never happen in europe :D
06:49:23 <doesthiswork> One user complained that their program executed, but didn't do anything. The scon looked at it for twenty minutes before realizing that they'd commented out EVERY LINE. The user said, "Well, that was the only way I could get it to compile."
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08:06:21 <mroman> doesthiswork: He obviously lied.
08:06:51 <mroman> echo > program.c && gcc -o program program.c && chmod +x program
08:08:54 <Bike> maybe it wasn't c?
08:09:14 <pikhq> mroman: That's actually not valid C.
08:09:44 <pikhq> I'm not 100% sure, it might be a valid *translation unit*.
08:10:38 <pikhq> But definitely not a valid program: does not have int main(int,char*) *or* int main().
08:11:00 <Bike> isn't that mroman's point
08:11:45 <kmc> didn't IOCCC accept an empty program as a quine
08:11:54 <kmc> on the basis that some compiler would translate it to a no-op binary
08:12:19 <kmc> presumably the C spec allows implementation-defined alternatives to main()
08:12:21 <kmc> i,i WinMain()
08:17:09 <pikhq> It does permit implementation-defined entry points, yeah.
08:17:21 <pikhq> Actually, given that, it is conformant C, but not strictly conformant.
08:24:40 <zzo38> What was the 8-bit character set used in Amiga computer?
08:29:43 <pikhq> Are you thinking of PETSCII?
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08:30:18 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure the Amiga used normal ASCII though.
08:30:42 <zzo38> Actually, I mean whatever character set is used in .MOD on Amiga. I mean 8-bits, I know the 7-bits is ASCII
08:32:54 <Sgeo> Is it weird that I like Harry Potter fanfics even though I've only read the first four books?
08:33:09 <monqy> what sort of harry potter fanfics are we talking here
08:33:18 <pikhq> By the way, those are the weaker of the series.
08:34:55 <Sgeo> HPMOR and The Strange Disappearance of Sally-Anne Perks
08:35:13 <Sgeo> Still reading the latter
08:35:22 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell GCC to compile the newest files at first?
08:35:30 <pikhq> HPMOR is kinda-insanely spoiler heavy.
08:35:37 <zzo38> Can it be done in the shell scripting?
08:36:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, I'm fine with HP spoilers, have read some
08:36:43 <monqy> joke about someone killing someone else, double joke whereby
08:37:43 <Sgeo> After the 7th book came out, I searched for spoilers since I wanted to know how it ended. I'm a bit hazy on the details though
08:39:38 <Bike> iirc everybody except the mainest characters die
08:40:09 <pikhq> Though it is definitely a "anyone can die" thing going on.
08:52:14 <Sgeo> I love how fanfic writers can take a little continuity error and just run with it
08:52:17 <Sgeo> This is awesome
08:53:20 <monqy> my favorite fanfic writer is hans von hozel
08:56:07 <monqy> apparently hans von hozel doesnt exist on fanfiction.net anymore??? rest in peace :'( i hope his stories were archived
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09:10:15 <doesthiswork> is that the one where sally ann perks is ariana dumbledore in disguise?
09:10:21 -!- impomatic has joined.
09:12:12 <mroman> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
09:12:17 <EgoBot> 128 +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.>++.+++++++..+++.>.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>-. [574]
09:20:48 <Sgeo> pikhq, I think there are things in HPMOR that I don't understand due to lack of canon knowledge
09:20:58 <Sgeo> e.g. Elder Wand references
09:21:04 <Sgeo> (Reading /r/hpmor)
09:30:02 <zzo38> GameBoy audio seems like difficult to program compared to Famicom audio, and has no software envelopes, apparently only hardware envelopes can be used
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10:04:44 <zzo38> Classical logic is not applicable for self reference statements. Do you agree?
10:06:01 <Lumpio-> You sure like to ask random questions out of the blue
10:06:26 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know what you mean.
10:07:23 <zzo38> In GEB, Hofstadter is defining the system as inconsistent by having two statements X and ~X both theorems, but I didn't (and still don't) like that; shouldn't it be, it is inconsistent if all well formed strings are theorems? At least it seems better to me.
10:08:16 <shachaf> That's not always true, though.
10:08:24 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistent_logic
10:08:27 <Sgeo> "all well-formed strings are theorems -> inconsist" implies "x ^ ~x -> inconsistent"
10:08:49 <Sgeo> But "x ^ ~x -> inconsistent" does not imply "all well-formed strings are theorems -> inconsistent"
10:09:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, I really need to word that better
10:09:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, I know all that. I understand you.
10:09:45 <Sgeo> zzo38, so, you want a theory in which x ^ ~x can be proved, but as long as there's a statement which cannot be proved, it is not inconsistent?
10:09:50 <zzo38> shachaf: Example of classical logic not applicable to self reference, may be: [1] <any statement, here it says "God exists"> [2] Both statements are false.
10:10:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I am not saying I do or do not want any of these things; I am simply saying that the definition of being inconsistent by having X and ~X seem not a good definition to me.
10:11:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:13:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Hello, which one do you want, today?
10:13:47 <Sgeo> Why are 1-20-13 stickers still being advertised?
10:13:49 -!- md_5 has joined.
10:13:52 <Sgeo> Surely the ads cost money...
10:15:33 <zzo38> oerjan: What is *your* opinion of all of this "logic" stuff? (see logs)
10:16:19 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't think i'm in shape today to form an opinion on that kind of stuff
10:16:21 <Jafet> fungot defies logic. Checkmate.
10:16:22 <fungot> Jafet: but then your upload rate will always suck. :p i think that should work
10:16:36 <doesthiswork> my favorite self referential paradox is curry's paradox
10:16:39 <doesthiswork> 2.The second sentence on The List is circular.
10:16:39 <doesthiswork> 3.If the third sentence on The List is true, then every sentence is true.
10:16:45 <zzo38> No, not checkmate. It is just check.
10:17:41 <zzo38> doesthiswork: I didn't see that. Now I did.
10:18:14 <fungot> shachaf: the fastest i can get one from sörnäs too, if you write code in a library listening to music
10:18:19 <Sgeo> I don't see how that's a paradox
10:18:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:18:28 <Sgeo> There are several consistent resolutions to it
10:18:32 <shachaf> Sgeo: It's just the third sentence.
10:18:39 <Jafet> 5.The butler isn't the thief.
10:18:48 <Sgeo> Oh, I think I forgot the meaning of if
10:19:17 <oerjan> 2 and 4 are obviously true, 1 is plausible
10:19:28 <Sgeo> 3 being true seems to be consistent as long as the others are true.
10:20:12 * Sgeo is trying to figure out whether 3 can be false
10:21:48 <Sgeo> hmm, I see, I think.
10:22:39 <doesthiswork> if you duplicate it on the list then it is able to be false
10:24:06 <doesthiswork> and the direction of causality seems to be backwards
10:27:57 <Sgeo> http://dailysciencefiction.com/fantasy/fairy-tales/dani-atkinson/said-the-princess
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10:46:28 <mroman> !blsq 2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222^^2\/?dr@.%{0==}ayn!
10:46:29 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
10:46:36 <mroman> sometimes lazyness breaks :(
10:47:51 <mroman> !blsq 2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222^^2\/?dr@.%-]
10:48:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
10:48:41 <mroman> Burlesques any behaves different :(
10:49:37 <mroman> it uses a foldl with or
10:49:53 <mroman> > foldl1 (||) $ map (==0)[0..]
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11:23:28 <oerjan> it needs to be a foldr to be lazy
11:24:01 <shachaf> it needs to be a foldMap to be easy
11:24:24 * oerjan mappends shachaf with the swatter -----###
11:25:23 <shachaf> I just wrote a response to a subcomment on the post that ended up being longer than the original post.
11:25:26 <shachaf> And it's about monads. :-(
11:25:40 <monqy> oooooooooooooooooooooops
11:25:55 <monqy> should have made it about monoids maybe it'd be easier???????
11:26:11 <shachaf> monqy: dont you think the monoids/easy thing is a bit overdone
11:26:12 <oerjan> monads _are_ monoids. sheesh.
11:26:36 * Sgeo reddit-stalks shachaf and doesn't see a comment newer than 2 months old
11:26:47 <monqy> shachaf, oerjan, sgeo: :-)
11:26:53 <shachaf> Sgeo: did you know part of the internet exists that isn't reddit
11:28:05 * Sgeo vaguely wants to find a pdf -> epub converter that isn't Calibre
11:29:18 <shachaf> Sgeo: anyway it's on "that other website"
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11:30:44 <monqy> other website??? sounds sketchy
11:31:13 <Sgeo> Nothing recent and relevant on either SO or Hacker News
11:31:34 <monqy> shachaf: idea: what if monoids being easy being overdone is overdone: what now/checkmate???
11:33:22 <shachaf> monqy: are you some kind of overdoneintuitionistperson
11:34:07 <monqy> today my ideas is that
11:36:07 <shachaf> i was waiting for you to finish that sentence
11:36:36 <shachaf> btw today is already tomorrow so what's yesterdays/tomorrows ideas¿
11:37:00 <monqy> i dont think time works like that shachaf -an idea
11:37:40 <shachaf> hang on one minute was that another idea
11:37:48 <shachaf> how many ideas do we get a day
11:38:10 <monqy> what if everything i say is an idea -an idea
11:38:25 <monqy> maybe thats why im an ideas man -an idea
11:38:36 <shachaf> if i give you my email address will you spam me with ideas
11:38:42 <monqy> no im not a spam man
11:38:52 <shachaf> will you email me with ideas
11:38:59 <monqy> im not an email man either
11:39:37 <shachaf> if i give you my irc address will you irc me some ideas
11:41:36 <monqy> is that a plant bulb
11:43:57 <ion> The faces in U+2639–U+263B were designed to irritate my OCD.
11:44:42 <shachaf> ion: What about 261A-261F?
11:45:03 <ion> shachaf: heh
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11:49:08 <mroman> !blsq 2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222^^2\/?dr@.%0Fi
11:49:17 <mroman> !blsq 13^^2\/?dr@.%0Fi
11:49:58 <mroman> !blsq 13^^2\/?dr@.%0Fi0<.{"Prime""Not so prime"}ch
11:50:19 <mroman> !blsq 222^^2\/?dr@.%0Fi0<.{"Prime""Not so prime"}ch
11:50:35 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (hi)!
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11:51:17 <mroman> shachaf: http://mroman.ch/burlesque
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11:56:18 <monqy> i'm getting some ursala-but-taking-itself-less-seriously vibes from some of this "about" stuff
11:57:05 <monqy> remember when i learned some ursala and never bothered to learn the rest? i forgot it all. probably easy to relearn. not going to bother
11:58:08 <shachaf> you've talked about it before....
11:59:33 <Sgeo> Some sort of language that people in here disliked
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12:00:01 <monqy> i dont think its possible to dislike ursala
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12:00:59 <monqy> https://github.com/gueststar/Ursala/ / https://gitorious.org/ursala-manual
12:01:26 <monqy> looks like the manual's in the first repo too..
12:01:30 <monqy> probably more up to date thee
12:02:06 <monqy> https://github.com/gueststar/Ursala/tree/master/contrib code examples!!
12:03:10 <Sgeo> I almost want to call it an esolang, but J isn't an esolang
12:05:24 <monqy> i suggest learning ursala as your next language
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12:21:11 <mroman> Yeah. I've stumbled upon it years ago :)
12:23:01 <mroman> The manual is 500 pages long o_O
12:24:12 <mroman> is there a image library to render images without using I/O?
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12:27:47 <shachaf> monqy: can i have one more idea
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12:44:58 <mroman> !blsq {0 1}{^^++[+[-^^-]\/}1500.*\[e!vv
12:44:58 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
12:45:02 <mroman> !blsq {0 1}{^^++[+[-^^-]\/}500.*\[e!vv
12:45:03 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
12:45:07 <mroman> !blsq {0 1}{^^++[+[-^^-]\/}100.*\[e!vv
12:45:07 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
12:45:13 <mroman> !blsq {0 1}{^^++[+[-^^-]\/}50.*\[e!vv
12:46:02 <mroman> !blsq {0 1}{^^++[+[-^^-]\/750.*\[e!vv
12:46:03 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 32):
12:46:14 <mroman> !blsq {0 1}{^^++[+[-^^-]\/}70.*\[e!vv
12:46:14 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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12:50:14 <Sgeo> Help I'm scared to go to sleep
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12:56:33 <Sgeo> I'm still feeling the same weird way I did when I woke up
12:56:42 <Sgeo> Scared what if I can't breathe when I wake up
12:56:48 <Sgeo> I felt horrible yesterday
13:04:01 <mroman> He told you the time you have left to live
13:04:13 <mroman> afte that he's gonna kill you while you're sleeping.
13:05:04 <mroman> You woke up unable to breathe?
13:08:49 <mroman> ^- also, the time is increasing. So no worry ;)
13:11:25 <Sgeo> mroman, I woke up feeling almost but not quite like I was trying to vomit, and having a bit of trouble breathing through that
13:13:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: while in general you seem to have a need to break off from your dad, i _do_ vaguely recall that he is a doctor. maybe you should call him, or otherwise get to another doctor.
13:13:56 <Sgeo> I did mention it to him, although I don't know if I really described what I went through last morning
13:14:24 <oerjan> i mean i'm not a doctor, but my hunch says it could be either anxiety or an actual heart problem
13:14:58 <Sgeo> It... felt more like a stomach problem
13:15:06 <oerjan> (of course it could be completely different)
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13:20:01 <Vorpal> Lots of flu around this time of year too
13:20:01 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:20:06 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6d 3h 56m 53s ago: <Vorpal> also my PS3 controller on my desk random came to life and blinked the 4 LEDS a couple of times <-- probably just the google cloud trying to print
13:23:44 <oerjan> IT'S THE OBVIOUS EXPLANATION
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13:28:14 <Sgeo> Per my dad's suggestion, going to walk outside a bit before going to sleep
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13:39:29 <oerjan> @hoogle a -> [b] -> (a -> b -> (c, a)) -> [c]
13:39:51 <oerjan> @hoogle a -> [b] -> (a -> b -> (c, a)) -> ([c], a)
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13:40:08 <lambdabot> (acc -> x -> (acc, y)) -> acc -> [x] -> (acc, [y])
13:40:51 <oerjan> i thought hoogle did better argument rearrangement than that
13:42:53 <Sgeo> Also would need tuple rearrangement?
13:42:57 <elliott> oerjan: have I mentioned that State is the wrong way around
13:43:22 <lambdabot> MonadState s m => (s -> (a, s)) -> m a
13:43:37 <Sgeo> Wrong way around? As in, the tuple?
13:44:02 <Sgeo> Hmm, why does it matter? Because of possibility or lack thereof of using (,)?
13:44:21 <elliott> inconsistent with mapAccumL, the Functor instance, etc.
13:44:32 <elliott> leading to many uses of "swap'
13:46:55 <ion> OTOH, “state . randomR” works.
13:47:35 <elliott> that's because Random is backwards too
13:51:38 <lambdabot> (RandomGen g, Random a) => (a, a) -> g -> (a, g)
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13:51:45 <Sgeo> Or maybe everything else is backwards
13:51:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
13:52:10 <Sgeo> (Or is there an asymmetry?
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13:53:51 <elliott> Sgeo: yes, the Functor instance.
13:53:58 <elliott> you cannot give a Functor instance for (_,e) but you can for (e,_)
13:54:06 <ion> Ah, good point.
13:54:40 <elliott> and e.g. the fmap for the State monad matches the fmap for (e,_), which is opposite to (fmap.fmap) on its representation
13:54:51 <elliott> similarly mapping over the random value you generated is more useful than mapping over the resulting generator
13:56:00 <elliott> more uselessly you can express State as the adjunction between ((->) e) and ((,) e) in Haskell (directly, since they're both functors Hask -> Hask) whereas (_, e) of course doesn't work because of the Functor thing
14:01:25 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll set an alarm to wake me up in 4 hours, then go back to sleep
14:05:13 <oerjan> > "aaaabbc" \\ "abbcc"
14:05:19 <oerjan> > "aaaabbc" \\ "abbcc"
14:07:34 <olsner> "<Sgeo> Not recommended to microwave (I forget the exact phrasing of the microwave bit)" <-- as a general rule nothing can be cooked in the microwave unless explicitly made for it
14:08:20 <Sgeo> fresh but refrigerated pizza isn't explicitly made for microwave cooking, is it?
14:09:26 <olsner> well, that was cooked before being refrigerated, right?
14:12:31 <olsner> if not I would say it's a clear example of something that requires non-microwave cooking
14:28:40 <mroman> !blsq "aaaabbc" "abbcc" \\
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14:37:02 <FreeFull> mroman: Is it supposed to return "abbc" ?
14:41:44 <mroman> > "aaaabbc" \\ "abbcc"
14:42:32 <oerjan> it's what i needed, anyway
14:42:52 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
14:43:38 <mroman> !blsq "aaaabbc"NB"abbcc" \\
14:48:51 * FreeFull looks up the definition of \\ again
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14:59:07 <FreeFull> Oh, difference, not intersection like I thought
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15:39:21 <GOMADWarrior> in brainfuck , accepts a number from 0 to 255?
15:39:57 <oerjan> that's common yes. although some implementations use -1 for EOF.
15:46:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, -1 would be 255, how could you tell the difference?
15:46:22 <Vorpal> assuming 2-complement at least
15:46:37 <nortti> Vorpal: there is no way
15:47:14 <oerjan> Vorpal: you are assuming 8-bit
15:47:35 <oerjan> -1 makes more sense if you'e >8 bit
15:47:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, well yes, given the range 0 - 255 or -128 - 127
15:48:17 <oerjan> although i guess it may more often be just an artifact of using C getchar
15:48:50 <olsner> ah, you already went past the whole 255 is -1 thing earlier, never mind
16:11:03 <GOMADWarrior> just made a brainfuck interpreter in lua http://bpaste.net/show/YJWGQ0DQRwuAs4EPjxP4/
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16:46:25 <kmc> what language is that?
16:46:28 <kmc> oh you said lua
16:52:19 <mroman> sym = C(S"+-*/") * V"ws",
16:52:26 <mroman> ^- and that looks Creepy
16:53:05 <mroman> I'm not saying it's bad.
16:53:47 <mroman> I don't know Lua well enough.
16:56:01 <nooodl> i made a brainfuck interpreter in TI-BASIC at school yesterday
16:56:12 <nooodl> i should type the code into a thingy
17:13:59 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/3PIANdqlzqCqcVs69upO/
17:14:23 <nooodl> the sample code asks for two numbers and multiplies them
17:14:42 <nooodl> i'm not sure how efficient it is (the bf code) but it takes like 20 seconds
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17:16:09 <nooodl> oh it's pretty "optimal"
17:16:47 <Lumpio-> What's with all the unclosed parenthesis
17:16:54 <Lumpio-> I don't speak expensive calculators
17:25:40 <olsner> I guess all parens get closed automatically at the end of a line
17:26:22 <mroman> http://codepad.org/3sHWeRWi
17:26:57 <mroman> (Q pushes the remaning code to the stack
17:27:11 <mroman> q pops code from the stack and replaces the left to execute code with it)
17:27:29 <mroman> Now I just need to find a use for it.
17:28:50 <FreeFull> mroman: Seems useful for code modification
17:29:06 <FreeFull> Maybe something like lisp macros but stacky
17:29:10 <mroman> You can already manipulate code on the fly by using eval
17:29:28 <mroman> but this is another way of doing it, yes
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18:28:53 <nooodl> and TI-BASIC code is faster when it's shorter! so that kind of thing is pretty common
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18:30:21 <quintopia> i wrote a bf interpreter in ti-basic when i was in high school
18:30:41 <quintopia> amazing what boredom with your classes can do
18:31:19 <nooodl> mine supports "visualization" too if you just add like "Output(1,1,L1" to the main loop
18:31:38 <nooodl> because it's so slow you can just see your code execute step by step
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18:31:58 <nooodl> it's like 5 instructions per second
18:33:21 <quintopia> yeah no i meant real visualization, where it displays the part of the code being executed and points to the current command, and it displays the part of the tape being modified and points to the current cell
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18:34:10 <quintopia> also i dealt with the slow speed by adding an extra command: "a" which was equivalent to "++++++++++"
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18:57:19 <kmc> this cheese has a Data Matrix code printed on the rind
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19:01:39 <kmc> in retrospect, TI-83 was a great platform for beginning to learn programming
19:02:03 <kmc> i spent a lot of time riding school buses and waiting for school buses
19:02:06 <kmc> it allowed me to use that time
19:02:18 <kmc> and it was unambiguously mine, unlike my parents' computer which i or they would worry about me breaking
19:02:53 <impomatic> My parents thought I might break the computer by programming and typing in the wrong stuff...
19:03:10 <kmc> and it could do enough things (drawing, graphing, easy text-based menus) to be interesting
19:03:17 <kmc> while still being very easy to dive in
19:03:21 <Taneb> I'm second generation. It's handy
19:03:43 <kmc> and you could share your stuff with your friends via link cable, which added a social component
19:03:57 <kmc> i think the last part is the biggest difference between now and when i was in middle / high school
19:04:06 <kmc> now kids will want to upload their TI programs to facebook
19:04:09 <Taneb> On the other hand, I have a Casio graphical calculator
19:05:05 <kmc> i did a 4-shade mandelbrot set renderer in TI-83 BASIC
19:05:09 <kmc> it took like an hour
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19:06:27 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:07:03 <Taneb> AnotherTest, are you becoming the new me?
19:07:10 <Taneb> `pastelogs <Taneb> Hello
19:07:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30174
19:08:43 <Taneb> AnotherTest, look at that
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19:30:22 <kmc> BASIC was just barely fast enough to do 4-color greyscale by quickly loading saved monochrome images in order
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19:34:33 <nooodl> i've considered making
19:34:59 <nooodl> but it'd be really hard to make (though technically possible with lots of string bullshit)
19:35:23 <nooodl> but it'd be... so slow...
19:36:04 <mroman> The new TI are probably much faster.
19:36:17 <mroman> mine even has color display and touchscreen.
19:36:31 <mroman> not that a color display is something you'd want for a calculator.
19:36:48 <mroman> except for plotting multiple functions it is utterly useless.
19:38:40 <nooodl> wow i'm looking at a review for "axe parser" on ticalc.org
19:38:44 <nooodl> and this guy's scoresheet is
19:39:03 <nooodl> Syntax: 9/10 Speed: 10/10 Usability: 9/10 Practicality: 10/10 Learning curve: Y=2X
19:41:57 <AnotherTest1> mroman: can it plot functions with 2 input parameters?
19:42:33 <Taneb> ...can you add a constant to an equation like that? I don't think you can
19:43:58 <mroman> http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/ss/804/80422.gif <- what's that?
19:45:29 <AnotherTest1> I actually wrote a multiplayer TI game once. It was pretty bad but some kids actually played it
19:46:21 <AnotherTest1> I sort of had a singleplayer option, but it was pretty boring as you had to defeat the same monster over and over again
19:47:08 <AnotherTest1> which became impossible after a few level ups, because the monster strength calculation was done using a really bad formula
19:49:56 <nooodl> man, two years ago i wrote something kinda like an idle rpg
19:50:16 <nooodl> you had to mine for resources to sell them to buy upgrades to mine for better resources.
19:50:51 <nooodl> with much more "tiers"
19:50:53 <nooga> http://datamuseum.dk/site_dk/rc/gierdoc/naur8.pdf
19:51:15 <nooodl> it literally had iron/gold/diamond in it but it went on to all kind of ridiculous things
19:51:15 <nooga> mildly interesting
19:51:22 <AnotherTest1> someone should make a game were you attack guys using functions
19:51:36 <nooodl> AnotherTest1: http://www.graphwar.com/
19:52:13 <nooodl> Graphwar is an artillery game in which you must hit your enemies using mathematical functions. The trajectory of your shot is determined by the function you wrote, and your goal is to avoid the obstacles and your teammates and hit your enemies. The game takes place in a Cartesian Plane.
19:52:20 <AnotherTest1> * someone should make a game not written in java
19:53:38 <mroman> someone should implement langton's ant in Burlesque
19:53:39 <nooodl> was this pretty much your idea, though
19:53:52 -!- augur has joined.
19:54:05 <nooodl> mroman: that sounds fun
19:55:10 <nooga> i attack you with omega combinator
19:55:11 <AnotherTest1> nooodle: well, it would have been nicer if it were not in a plane, but in three dimensions
19:55:49 <Taneb> nooga, sounds dangerous
19:56:15 <nooodl> elliptic is elliott's alias
19:57:20 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
19:57:46 -!- ogrom has joined.
19:58:11 <AnotherTest1> like a function which is different depending on a number of conditions
19:58:50 <AnotherTest1> It would be nice if you could have a list of functions
19:59:47 <nooodl> fyi i'm from dutch-speaking belgium
20:00:03 -!- AnotherTest1 has changed nick to AnotherTest.
20:00:17 <nooga> once I went to Maastricht
20:00:30 <nooga> it's near belguim i think
20:00:48 <nooga> and they didn't speak english there, only french and dutch
20:00:59 <Taneb> One of my friends is descended from dutch-speaking belgians, I think
20:01:10 <nooodl> it's right next to belgium
20:01:51 <AnotherTest> What I want to say is probably a function with a, in dutch, "meervoudig voorschrift"
20:02:07 <nooga> yeah, we had girls riding bikes from belgium to a party in maas
20:02:35 <nooodl> it doesn't have that because it'd be really easy to cheat
20:02:46 <nooodl> because you could finetune your function to avoid all obstacles easily
20:03:09 <AnotherTest> well, I guess if you predicted their movement
20:03:10 <kmc> google translates that as "piecewise"
20:03:32 <AnotherTest> and the random number should be really random
20:03:40 <kmc> no you should have to buy entropy
20:03:46 <nooodl> man. i live like 20 minutes away from antwerp; where are you from AnotherTest
20:05:24 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
20:06:48 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:08:18 <mroman> !blsq "....\n..#.\n...."
20:08:38 <mroman> !blsq "....\n..#.\n...."ln{1 2}d!
20:09:14 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 2):
20:09:16 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 2):
20:09:17 <blsqbot> ERROR: Unknown command: (Qq)!
20:09:19 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 2):
20:09:32 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 6):
20:09:38 <mroman> I haven't updated the blsqbot yet.
20:10:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:11:49 <nooodl> mroman: suggestion: have blsqbot respond to queries differently
20:12:01 <blsqbot> "#esoteric: anonymous mode"
20:12:12 <blsqbot> "I'm a little teapot, short and stout."
20:12:17 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
20:12:31 <blsqbot> "o/` i'm an irc bot short and stout o/`"
20:12:36 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (w!) Invalid arguments!
20:12:41 <blsqbot> "blsqbot should do HTCPCP"
20:12:54 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
20:13:19 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (w!) Invalid!
20:13:20 <kmc> "how to cook PCP"?
20:13:31 <FreeFull> Hypertext coffee pot control protocol
20:13:50 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (w!) Invalid!
20:14:00 <FreeFull> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2324.txt
20:14:48 -!- blsqbot has quit (Quit: Exiting).
20:15:03 <AnotherTest> !blsq { "Why does this feel bad." 1 } {50 .<} w!
20:16:43 -!- blsqbot has joined.
20:16:56 <nooodl> mroman: is there a "negate" command? short for -1.*
20:17:05 <AnotherTest> !blsq { "Why does this feel bad. Yay!" 1 } {50 .<} w!
20:17:06 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (w!) Invalid!
20:17:24 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (w!) Invalid!
20:17:45 <nooga> what is this burlesque toy?
20:17:53 <ais523> well, burlesque is an esolang
20:17:57 <ais523> so I guess blsqbot evaluates it
20:18:42 <nooodl> could be "ng" or something, "Negate"
20:18:46 <blsqbot> nooga: I evaluate all your burlesque expressions
20:18:59 <mroman> nooodl: Oh. that negate
20:19:01 <blsqbot> ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
20:19:56 <blsqbot> {0.8775825618903728 0.8775825618903728 0.9210609940028851}
20:21:00 <mroman> AnotherTest: There is nothing on the stack @ {1}{50.<}w!
20:21:18 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
20:21:25 <mroman> but it's an endless loop.
20:23:35 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
20:24:23 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:24:47 <mroman> FreeFull: #Q pushes remaining code to the stack, #q pops code and replaces remaining code with it
20:24:57 <mroman> #j pops code from stack and prepends it to remaining code
20:25:02 <mroman> #J dose the same but appends
20:25:24 <mroman> (#s pushes the stack to the stack)
20:26:28 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:26:42 <mroman> !blsq #Q"Hello, World"sh
20:26:47 <mroman> !blsq #Q"Hello, World"sh#s
20:26:48 <blsqbot> {Hello, World {"Hello, World" sh #s}}
20:27:15 <Vorpal> @tell fizzie fizzie whatever happened to jitfunge?
20:27:24 <Vorpal> err why did I write the nick twice?
20:28:04 <mroman> FreeFull: I'm not sure what one can achieve with this.
20:29:07 <FreeFull> mroman: There should be a way to stop #Q, so it doesn't change any code afterwards
20:29:40 <FreeFull> So everything from #Q to #E gets pushed onto the stack
20:29:49 <FreeFull> And then the rest of the code gets executed normally
20:30:13 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined.
20:30:29 <nooodl_> burlesque is written in haskell, right?
20:30:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:30:57 <mroman> ^- you can remove elements from the pushed code
20:31:39 <nooodl_> hmm. i was interested to see how you handled the lazy lists
20:31:42 <nooodl_> but in haskell it's trivial
20:31:55 <mroman> I get lazyness for free ;)
20:32:06 <mroman> !blsq #Q5 5 .+\/3.+e!#s
20:32:25 <mroman> !blsq #Q5 5 .+\/3.+e!.+#s
20:32:34 <mroman> !blsq #Q5 5 .+\/3.+e!.+
20:34:00 <mroman> #Q does not stop code from being executed.
20:34:44 <mroman> nooodl_: It wouldn't be just infinite lists.
20:35:11 <mroman> I'd have to implement general lazyness.
20:35:16 <zzo38> There are no available nodes on X-Bit BBS for many hours already.
20:35:36 <nooodl_> i don't even know how haskell does it
20:36:36 <Bike> heap values are thunks, it's not that hard
20:37:32 <kmc> it might be useful to play with laziness in a strict language
20:37:47 <kmc> you can defer computation by wrapping it in a zero-argument lambda
20:37:55 <kmc> and then force it later just by applying that function
20:38:00 <kmc> that's not actually lazy evaluation
20:38:06 <kmc> it has the same semantics (non-strict semantics)
20:38:09 <kmc> but much worse performance
20:38:36 <mroman> I actually was playing with the thought of creating a lazy assembler like machine
20:38:38 <kmc> under lazy evaluation you mutate that thunk so that the next time it's evaluated, the result is re-used
20:39:09 <mroman> just as an exercise to see how it could be done
20:39:32 <Bike> kmc: you can do that pretty easily with thunks too, though, it's just a few more lines to think about.
20:40:48 <Bike> mroman: how would that work?
20:41:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:42:06 <elliott> nooodl_: read ezyang's stuff
20:42:20 <elliott> http://blog.ezyang.com/2011/04/the-haskell-heap/
20:42:29 <elliott> + the follow-up posts it links
20:42:43 <Bike> elliott i have a confession
20:42:53 <Bike> a matrix isn't enough to define an analytic function uniquely
20:42:55 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:42:57 <Taneb> Bike, are you actually a bicycle?
20:43:05 <Bike> dude it says "bike" are you blind
20:43:29 <mroman> Bike: Read/Writes to register/memory is not done immediately
20:43:50 <elliott> Bike: isn't that a bit obvious
20:44:16 <Bike> yes but i was still thinking about it
20:44:24 <doesthiswork> is there an algorithm for compressing joust programs optimally?
20:45:06 <mroman> It's probably useless but ...
20:45:09 <elliott> if you mean to ()* ()% then yeah
20:45:17 <elliott> expanding those provably halts
20:45:24 <elliott> so you can just brute-force up to the length of the program
20:45:27 <nooodl_> elliott: this is very cute
20:46:41 <kmc> i wonder where Fiora went
20:46:52 <Bike> she got pissed after a talk about racism here
20:47:44 <kmc> now i feel bad
20:47:46 <elliott> was that the awful one that i logread
20:47:55 <kmc> i wasn't involved in the discussion but I mean i feel bad generally
20:48:14 <elliott> she was cool, I miss the occasional cpu architecture babble
20:48:57 <ais523> I missed that discussion too
20:49:44 <zzo38> Have you ever used the circle algorithm from HAKMEM?
20:49:51 <elliott> discussion is a bit of an overly charitable word for it
20:50:43 <ais523> elliott: is it the sort of thing that people should get banned over?
20:50:53 <ais523> driving useful people from the channel is bad :(
20:51:01 <elliott> ais523: depends what your threshold for banning is
20:51:24 <elliott> probably not something you would ban over from what i know of your op policy
20:51:35 <ais523> elliott: I guess one way to put it is, if the situation between two people has got bad enough that they refuse to be in the channel simultaneously
20:51:38 <ais523> then you ban whichever one is less useful
20:51:39 <elliott> probably something I would ban for but then I'd ban everyone who looks at me wrong
20:52:09 * nortti looks at elliott wrong
20:52:35 <elliott> are you trying to get banned
20:52:38 <ais523> elliott: the problem is you're a bit too impulsive to make a good op, you'd make good decisions most of the time but harm the channel every now and then
20:52:57 <elliott> ais523: hey I've wanted to ban like three idiots on the esolang wiki and restrained myself!!
20:53:10 <ais523> elliott: for what? making bad BF derivatives?
20:53:11 <elliott> except for NSQX. but it turns out banning him doesn't actually work anyway
20:53:15 <kmc> Bike: if you still talk to her, maybe you can tell her that people here wish she would come back
20:53:18 <kmc> i mean if you want to
20:53:54 <ais523> kmc: in my case, its more that I'm upset that she was driven away for no good reason
20:54:09 <ais523> she doesn't have to come back if she doesn't want to, but whatever drove her away needs fixing
20:54:24 <Taneb> What happened to tiffany and Madam_Konada or whatever her name was
20:55:13 <elliott> it wasn't really notorious
20:55:19 <ais523> yeah, and how come none of the channel regulars were there?
20:55:26 <kmc> ais523: sure
20:55:28 <kmc> makes sense
20:55:29 <elliott> i just have a really good logreading memory
20:55:42 <ais523> like, the most plausible reason for "none of the channel regulars were involved" is "it was in a different channel", regardless of which channel you're talking about
20:55:45 <ais523> unless it has no regulars
20:55:59 <elliott> well bike and fiora were involved :P
20:56:15 <elliott> anyway it's probably not worth doing anything about N weeks later
20:56:21 <ais523> bike isn't the first person I'd think of when asked to list #esoteric regulars
20:56:34 <Bike> esoteric irregulars
20:56:37 <elliott> bike has been here like months now!
20:56:43 <elliott> can you believe taneb's been here since...
20:56:52 <ais523> yeah, taneb's in my head as a regular
20:56:52 <Taneb> August 2011, I think
20:56:57 <nortti> actually, who are consisdered regulars and who are not?
20:56:57 <kmc> the discussion is here if anyone cares http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-01-27.txt
20:57:07 <Bike> all i do is sit around not knowing haskell
20:57:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12059
20:57:10 <Bike> p. irregular imo
20:57:14 <ais523> elliott: which of us became a #esoteric regular earlier? was it me?
20:57:17 <ais523> I know Vorpal came later
20:57:26 <elliott> 2010-09-06.txt:20:39:56: -!- Taneb has joined #esoteric.
20:57:43 <nooodl_> it was probably like 2 days ago
20:57:45 <Vorpal> ais523, I joined a few months before I really began to talk much though
20:57:57 <elliott> but then disappeared until 2007
20:58:03 <Taneb> I'm not sure if the first Taneb is actually me
20:58:07 <Bike> anyway the thing is that fiora is pretty much on high alert for various bad-isms, especially on freenode, land of the grognards
20:58:07 <elliott> iirc there were too many people on the user list and I got scared :(
20:58:09 <ais523> impomatic: later, definitely, I'm just not sure how much later
20:58:11 <nooodl_> how did you know about esoteric programming languages at age 10
20:58:23 <elliott> nooodl_: i spen[dt] a lot of time on the internet
20:58:25 <kmc> what's a grognards, well i guess i can tell from context
20:58:26 <ais523> Bike: yeah, a lot of people dislike bad-isms
20:58:35 <elliott> imo badness is actually good
20:58:49 <Vorpal> Bike, what is a bad-ism?
20:58:54 <Taneb> I don't remember ever asking cpressey about Hackiki
20:58:55 <Bike> kmc: i originally heard it as slang for somebody who gets into long involved arguments about which edition of D&D is best
20:59:00 <elliott> Vorpal: it's when your aim gets hecked
20:59:01 <Bike> Vorpal: in this case racism
20:59:04 <kmc> i don't totally understand what in that discussion made it worth leaving the channel forever but, i have done the same thing in similar contexts
20:59:07 <mroman> Where's the discussion?
20:59:15 <mroman> There's no discussion. She just left
20:59:19 <Taneb> I remember the second incident on that log
20:59:26 <elliott> are we going to restart the discussion by proxy of discussing it for an hour
20:59:29 <elliott> because that seems unproductive
20:59:50 <Vorpal> Bike, also who is fiora?
20:59:54 <Bike> a good discussion
21:00:02 <Bike> Vorpal: someone i know from elsewhere. does a lot of x86 hacking.
21:00:29 <elliott> Taneb: I like how you were mentioned before you even joined
21:00:39 <Bike> she was here for a few... days? weeks? after reading kmc's article about injecting code into a packet filter JIT
21:00:50 <elliott> she was here over a month I think?
21:00:53 <elliott> it felt like a while anyway
21:01:09 <kmc> it was a while
21:01:30 <elliott> ais523: imo Taneb needs kicking for that
21:01:40 <ais523> elliott: what, bad puns?
21:01:46 <elliott> ais523: oerjan has a patent
21:01:47 <ais523> then we'd have to get rid of oerjan too
21:01:56 <elliott> it's the best thing for the channel
21:02:14 <elliott> Bike: btw you should learn haskell
21:02:16 <elliott> it'd be like coming of age
21:02:30 <Taneb> Anyway, I seriously do not remember the first time I appeared in those logs
21:02:40 <Taneb> I seem to remember asking that much later?
21:03:00 <Bike> maybe i should just implement barebones haskell 98 in a language i'm used to like a sensible person
21:03:04 <Bike> or is there a standard past 98
21:03:08 <olsner> was Taneb the first name you used here? istr you changed name a million times before becoming taneb
21:03:11 <olsner> (but maybe it was actually after)
21:03:14 <Bike> haskell of the future
21:03:16 <kmc> not very different
21:03:26 <kmc> they said they were going to do one spec per year
21:03:26 <Bike> did they like kill that n+k pattern thing
21:03:28 <Taneb> It went Taneb -> Ngevd -> atriq -> Taneb
21:03:32 <Bike> or whatever it was people yelled about
21:03:34 <kmc> but so far 2010 is the latest
21:03:35 <Taneb> With some switching back and forth
21:03:38 <ais523> starting out in a new community by lurking is common
21:03:38 <elliott> Bike: standard haskell is still kind of "a pain" to implement
21:03:42 <ais523> and the safest method, really
21:03:49 <Bike> elliott: so i would assume
21:03:50 <kmc> Bike: there's a paper "Typing Haskell in Haskell"
21:03:57 <Taneb> ais523, I'm crap at lurking
21:04:02 <ais523> the only other method that even has a moderately good success rate is starting by contributing
21:04:13 <Bike> i read a paper once about how you couldn't embed system fi n itself, or something
21:04:16 <kmc> if you read that and the original STG machine paper and "How to make a fast curry"
21:04:22 <kmc> then i think you can implement haskell pretty well
21:04:35 <kmc> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2009-November/021750.html ← differences between H98 and H10
21:04:45 <elliott> Bike: n+k patterns are gone yes
21:04:52 <Bike> fuckin' knew it
21:04:59 <elliott> kmc: well you can interpret haskell much more easily
21:05:07 <kmc> > let n+1 = 3 in n
21:05:11 <Bike> yeah but interpreters are boring
21:05:13 <elliott> with just dead simple thunking
21:05:30 <elliott> thats a redefinition of (+)
21:05:39 <kmc> > let f (n+1) = n in f 3
21:05:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: n + 1
21:05:54 <elliott> imo implementing haskell is a really bad way to learn it because you'll get confused by operational details
21:06:03 <Bike> details like what
21:06:05 <elliott> since you need to think at a much lower level (and specify much more) than you need to effectively code in haskell
21:06:29 <nooodl_> "that's my taneb name generator"
21:06:33 <elliott> Bike: well the whole evaluation strategy is irrelevant when reasoning about haskell normally and thinking in low-level terms is a common impediment to people learning haskell
21:06:36 <elliott> esp. as it relates to non-strictness
21:06:48 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:06:49 <Bike> i'm already reasonably familiar with laziness, i think
21:07:16 <elliott> Bike: non-strictness and laziness are not the same thing :)
21:07:32 <mroman> !blsq 1'a'zr\0 25rn5.+sish
21:07:32 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (si) Invalid arguments!
21:07:37 <Bike> what's the difference then
21:07:43 <elliott> (indeed, equating the two -- though generally harmless -- is a common example of operational details getting mixed up in haskell)
21:07:55 <mroman> !blsq 1'a'zr\0 0 25rn5.+sish
21:07:59 <ais523> elliott: I still try to think about the order of program flow, if not evaluation order
21:08:04 <elliott> Bike: non-strictness simply means you have functions f for which f _|_ is not _|_, it is a property solely about the denotational semantics
21:08:09 <ais523> as in, a $ b c means "evaluate b c, then run a on the result"
21:08:11 <Taneb> Hang on hang on hang on
21:08:15 <elliott> Bike: laziness is the implementation of non-strictness with call-by-need
21:08:16 <ais523> as a result I end up having to try to read Haskell programs right to left
21:08:23 <Bike> elliott: oh, that's sensible.
21:08:25 <elliott> but e.g. call-by-name is also non-strict
21:08:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13540
21:08:37 <nooodl_> [2] [6] [five] [make-array] <short-map> [rand] <short-map-2> [lowercases] [index]
21:08:44 <Taneb> This isn't the first time I've been told that I've interacted with something before I can remember having interacted with them
21:09:06 <mroman> ais523: You can always use flip (.)
21:09:10 <mroman> it's defined somewhere
21:09:17 <elliott> 21:08:09 <ais523> as in, a $ b c means "evaluate b c, then run a on the result"
21:09:25 <elliott> ais523: the fact that that's inaccurate is a good argument against your reasoning process :)
21:09:46 <ais523> elliott: what it means in terms of program flow order
21:09:49 <mroman> > let ($|) = flip (.) in "abc" $| reverse $| take 2
21:09:51 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
21:09:51 <ais523> Haskell doesn't evaluate in that sequence
21:09:56 <ais523> but that's what the result means
21:10:05 <ais523> evaluation order is irrelevant, program flow order sort-of isn't
21:10:15 <ais523> because it's hard to understand the program otherwise
21:10:15 <elliott> ais523: well, if (b c) is (error "foo"), then evaluating it throws an exception
21:10:23 <elliott> but evaluating (const () $ b c) doesn't
21:10:39 <ais523> elliott: I don't think of evaluating it as throwing an exception in Haskell
21:10:50 <ais523> just like ??? doesn't throw an exception in Perl 6
21:10:55 <nooodl_> > let (?) = flip ($) in "abc" ? reverse ? take 2
21:11:05 <elliott> if you define evaluation to do nothing, then I agree your reading is correct
21:11:14 <elliott> it's inaccurate even if (b c) isn't _|_
21:11:21 <olsner> did anything ever happen to haskell2011?
21:11:22 <mroman> It's flip ($) not flip (.)
21:11:25 <elliott> it is _not_ evaluated to WHNF until a cases on its result
21:11:37 <Bike> haskell 2002, electric boogaloo
21:11:42 <ais523> elliott: I think I mentally elide the laziness
21:11:45 <ais523> as in, apply it at a different level
21:12:04 <ais523> hmm… I work with call-by-name a lot
21:12:17 <Bike> elliott: if it's remotely relevant i already know the case-is-evaluation thing from a spjones paper
21:12:38 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:13:04 <Taneb> <oerjan> by some freak coincidence taneb is elliott's next door neighbor
21:13:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331]).
21:13:40 <Taneb> ais523, I'm between old Mr Snowdon and the Bradshaws
21:13:43 <nooodl_> hey has anyone here tried http://scratch.mit.edu/
21:13:44 <Taneb> No room for the Hirds
21:13:52 <ais523> nooodl_: I've heard of it
21:13:54 <Taneb> nooodl_, yes, and it really isn't
21:14:44 * Bike looks through extensions
21:14:48 <Bike> what's Language.Python do?
21:15:30 <Bike> Stuff added in 2010.
21:15:36 <Bike> (in this case, dots in module names)
21:16:12 <elliott> that was actually added in 2002
21:16:20 <Bike> yes, so I see.
21:16:30 <elliott> I don't know what you mean by Language.Python though, Haskell 2010 doesn't specify any such module :P
21:16:48 <Bike> It's in the wiki's article on hierarchical names as an example
21:17:10 <Bike> on hackage or whatever
21:17:31 <elliott> well http://hackage.haskell.org/package/language-python
21:18:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hth': not found
21:18:57 <mroman> nooodl_: Are you going to implement langtons ant now?
21:19:00 <mroman> or should I do it tomorrow.
21:19:37 <mroman> If you have questions just ask me :)
21:19:56 <mroman> You can put it on rosettacode now.
21:20:08 <mroman> I was so evil to add Burlesque there to troll everybody with it.
21:20:22 <Bike> my favorite part of rosetta code is the befunge examples
21:20:45 <mroman> my sometimes brain thing mixes up
21:21:37 <mroman> I'm probably going to have a look at conways game of life in burlesque tomorrow.
21:21:41 <mroman> If I have some time to waste.
21:22:07 <Taneb> iirc, the Haskell version of the Langton's ant was written by me, and really sucks
21:22:20 <Bike> don't be so mean to yoself :(
21:22:32 <mroman> We all write sucky code for rosettacode.
21:22:53 <mroman> I don't want to give away free codegolf solutions anyway :)
21:23:53 <nooodl_> i made a scratch program for rosetta code
21:24:04 <Bike> If I'm mean to you, will you become myself?
21:24:12 <nooodl_> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set#Scratch
21:24:23 <nooodl_> there's no output example :( rip
21:24:49 <Taneb> I once wrote a Mandelbrot set in Scratch
21:25:13 <Bike> other good parts of rosettacode include: not recognizing some of the languages
21:25:18 <Vorpal> is that a graphical programming language?
21:25:30 <Bike> "Based on the BASIC Version. Due to the TI-83's lack of power, it takes around 2 hours to complete at 16 iterations." also.
21:25:33 <Vorpal> how versatile is it though?
21:25:36 <Bike> Vorpal: it's for pedagogy iirc
21:25:44 <nooodl_> it's for kids. so not versatile at all
21:25:46 <Bike> "The fact that you can create an image of the Mandelbrot Set with XSLT is sometimes under-appreciated."
21:25:56 <Vorpal> nooodl_, Logo isn't that limited iirc
21:26:09 <Vorpal> nooodl_, so it doesn't need to be bad just because it is for kids
21:26:21 <Vorpal> nooodl_, but it probably needs to be bad since it is graphic :P
21:26:23 <Bike> could be worse, it could be alice
21:26:33 <Bike> hey, there are cool graphical programming languages
21:26:46 <nooodl_> oh man. alice is used at my school to teach "programming"
21:26:53 <kmc> TIL that Python comes with a turtle graphics module
21:26:58 <nooodl_> i didn't ever use it though; not all classes got those lessons
21:27:02 <kmc> http://docs.python.org/2/library/turtle.html
21:27:07 <Bike> kmc: i used turtle in my freshman classes!
21:27:07 <Vorpal> nooodl_, what is "alice"?
21:27:22 <nooodl_> this http://www.alice.org/index.php
21:27:32 <Bike> it's less than good
21:27:56 <olsner> heh, the CVS article on wikipedia argues that non-atomic commits are mitigated by doing all work on branches and "the final merge is atomic, and performed in the data center by QA."
21:28:02 <Vorpal> also it references Alice in Wonderland. While that is a good book, there are way too many references to that already
21:28:10 <Vorpal> I say, with a nick referencing it...
21:28:18 <olsner> and the next point claims slow branching is fine because "CVS assumes that the majority of work takes place on the trunk, and that branches should generally be short-lived or historical."
21:28:29 <Vorpal> actually referencing Alice Through the Looking Glass, but whatever
21:29:20 <Vorpal> is someone trying to defend CVS?
21:29:58 <nooodl_> mroman: i'm installing burlesque locally atm
21:30:09 <elliott> olsner: in the data centre????
21:30:34 <elliott> 21:25:46 <Bike> "The fact that you can create an image of the Mandelbrot Set with XSLT is sometimes under-appreciated."
21:30:41 <Vorpal> also why would QA do merging at all
21:30:47 <elliott> Bike: https://github.com/isomorphism/esoteric-fractals/blob/master/Make/Makefile
21:30:57 <olsner> Vorpal: to work aroudn a broken version control system?
21:31:08 <Bike> Vorpal: the vorpal sword shows up in Alice?
21:31:22 <Vorpal> Bike, in the Jabberwocky poem yes
21:31:27 <Vorpal> that is the source of it
21:31:30 <Bike> elliott: at first i was like "wait, what language is this for" and then i was like "oh"
21:31:40 <Bike> Vorpal: I thought Jabberwocky was a separate thing, I mean.
21:32:01 <Vorpal> Bike, you never read the books then I guess?
21:32:03 <elliott> I like how it defines shittons and then proceeds to not use it ever again
21:32:15 <kmc> the final merge should be performed by a licensed & bonded mergemonger with a team of strong oxen
21:32:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that is gnu make isn't it?
21:32:34 <Bike> Vorpal: i haven't read any carroll, no
21:32:49 <Vorpal> Bike, it is a classic, of course
21:32:54 <Vorpal> both of the Alice books
21:32:59 <Taneb> Bike, Jabberwocky is a poem-within-a-book of Alice Through the Looking Glass
21:33:11 <Taneb> Hunting of the Snark is separate
21:33:14 <elliott> i second the carroll recommendation (this second is 50x better than the first because Vorpal was the first)
21:33:17 <Vorpal> Bike, also they are references all over popular culture
21:33:21 <Bike> i've only read like four books explicitly based on Alice, yes
21:33:31 <elliott> also read "What the Tortoise Said to Achilles".
21:33:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh come on, stop hating already
21:33:38 <Bike> that one i may have read already.
21:33:42 <Taneb> Alice is like Flatland but backwards
21:34:01 <Vorpal> Taneb, how do you mean
21:34:16 <Taneb> Flatland is about mathematics, but with references to Victorian culture
21:34:27 <Taneb> Alice is about Victorian culture, but with references to mathematics
21:34:29 <elliott> well you should look it up and see if you have.
21:34:34 <elliott> and then if you haven't, you can read it
21:34:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, wasn't that also a satire over the state of the church at the time or something? (I have to admit I haven't read the book)
21:35:40 <Bike> yep i've read it.
21:35:44 <Bike> Didn't know it was originally in Mind.
21:35:59 <Bike> much less dry than On Denoting, that's for sure
21:36:20 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, the last example of "quoting Alice just cause'" I saw was some shoehorned in quotes on some loading screens after certain missions in Far Cry 3
21:36:26 <nooodl_> mroman: is there an easy way to make "matrices"? like "3 2 something" -> {{0 0 0} {0 0 0}}
21:36:29 <Vorpal> didn't even fit all that well
21:36:40 <elliott> Bike: that one is also to blame for Hofstadter, I think
21:36:50 <Bike> yeah hofstadter's definitely where i read it
21:37:49 <Vorpal> should I (try to) read GEB?
21:38:08 <Bike> don't "try to", it's not like it's super technical
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21:38:19 <elliott> I refer you to http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris%20Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21
21:38:25 <elliott> and then leave you to make your own decisions
21:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> is that when somebody told him about hyperbolic geometry his response was like "well that's just stupid"
21:38:42 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: continuing in a long line of mathematicians, eh
21:38:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he had no idea how right he was
21:38:56 <Bike> "The book is riddled with errors, but has a great attitude."
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21:39:20 <Bike> elliott: Oh conflating it with Wolfram is a bit harsh.
21:39:26 <Vorpal> I actually like hyperbolic geometry, it is cool and weird
21:39:39 <elliott> Bike: cprsesey never conflates
21:39:53 <elliott> anyway GEB is much better than wolfram of course
21:40:07 <elliott> it is an interesting book, I won't say it has no values, but Hofstadter is way too sure of himself
21:40:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "Don't worry if you don't know topology -- it's not the topology that makes this a worthwhile read, it's the counterexamples."
21:40:14 <Bike> I mean, I think hofstadter is pretty wrong about how minds work, but i still enjoyed reading it
21:40:22 <elliott> and borders on quackery when he starts talking about consciousness I think
21:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> my favourite thing about hofstadter is that he has a harem of beautiful french women
21:40:47 <Bike> i have "Fluid Analogies"
21:40:50 <elliott> also you have to live through a few hundred pages of him going through formal proofs step by step
21:40:52 <kmc> i don't know that he makes any claims falsifiable enough to be called "quackery"
21:40:59 <Bike> i gave up reading it because I was like, no, that's not gonna work bro
21:41:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, seriously?
21:41:14 <elliott> kmc: some would argue every unfalsifiable claim constitutes quackery
21:41:18 <elliott> (though I don't quite agree)
21:41:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well iirc the source wasn't very reliable but it's far too amusing to be false
21:41:41 <elliott> anyway maybe GEB is "one of those books everyone should read" and it influenced my thinking
21:41:45 <elliott> but I can't really endorse it
21:41:45 <kmc> mostly it's just a bunch of cute sideways punny analogies and then a kind of incoherent "what if brains are that?"
21:42:02 <nooodl_> i have to read that book...
21:42:15 <Bike> i think The Mind's I was probably better for consciousness
21:42:16 <kmc> i agree that people (myself included) tend to see it as a coherent worldview and only years later realize how handwavey it is
21:42:20 <elliott> possibly it is worth reading just for the wit
21:42:25 <Bike> helping: it has an actual philosopher editing
21:42:36 <kmc> GEB also has a great intro to metamathematics though
21:42:41 <kmc> which is not handwavy in the least
21:43:02 <kmc> it presents incompleteness and such in a way that's accessible and yet far more precise than any other 'popular' presentation
21:43:53 <Bike> i probably learned predicate logic from GEB
21:44:09 <elliott> Hofstadter's "A Person Paper on Purity in Language" (http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html) was the thing that first made me realise that ingrained sexism existed (or perhaps rather: is a thing that could even be conceived of existed), I think
21:44:23 <Bike> oh yeah that was good too
21:44:25 <elliott> well, ingrained prejudice in general
21:44:43 <Bike> it's like "oh"
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21:46:45 <doesthiswork> because it is immediately preceded by the idea of padding the end of a book so you don't know when it really ends
21:47:03 <nooodl_> mroman: is there a way to run a block n times?
21:48:06 <Vorpal> doesthiswork, couldn't that just be a trick to make you believe it wasn't canon?
21:48:29 <Vorpal> doesthiswork, also non-cannon with two n would be something that is not a piece of artillery
21:49:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I invoke rule 34 on it
21:49:17 <Bike> it would be pretty great to see someone failing to write a crab canon
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21:49:22 <Vorpal> oh no, what have I done?
21:49:32 <Bike> I googled "GEB fanfiction" and got HPMOR, fuck yes
21:50:03 <elliott> Gods Eater Burst FanFiction Archive | FanFiction
21:50:30 <Bike> http://ffcdn2012.fictionpressllc.netdna-cdn.com/imageu/1413586/150/ holy shit
21:50:38 <nooodl_> i heard about that thing but i just don't understand what it is
21:50:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm reminded of TV Tropes' guide on how to tell which side of a harry potter fanfic is the protagonist
21:50:54 <Bike> "Occupation: International Baccalaureate student (Majors: Higher Mathematics, Design Technology, Music; Minors: Economics, English, Japanese)
21:50:58 <elliott> Bike: it has a tv tropes article
21:50:58 <Bike> I hit the jackpot here
21:51:04 <Vorpal> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm reminded of TV Tropes' guide on how to tell which side of a harry potter fanfic is the protagonist <-- oh?
21:51:09 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: orwell, of course
21:51:15 <nooodl_> 502 Bad Gateway on bike's link :(
21:51:21 <Vorpal> <Bike> http://ffcdn2012.fictionpressllc.netdna-cdn.com/imageu/1413586/150/ holy shit <-- 502 Bad Gateway?
21:51:22 <ais523> let me look it up so other people don't have to visit TV Tropes
21:51:24 <Bike> "Author has written 9 stories for Transformers/Beast Wars."
21:51:33 <elliott> Bike: i didn't realise orwell's real name was The E. Language
21:51:42 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:51:44 <elliott> i support a guy with a name that terrible too
21:51:47 <elliott> imagine how much he must get teased about it
21:51:48 <Bike> little known fact
21:51:54 <Vorpal> Bike, can you post a working version of that link?
21:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember looking up 'scorpius' and being royally pissed off that like a quarter of the results were harry potter fanfics
21:52:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did you really think that was tolkien
21:52:05 <Bike> apparently i cannot, vorpal
21:52:11 <Bike> http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1413586/Seien24 here you go though
21:52:14 <Vorpal> Bike, neither me nor nooodl_ got it to work
21:52:19 <elliott> also how do you pronounce tolkien
21:52:21 <Bike> "I'm a Libertarian and an atheist. I detest needing to eat or sleep."
21:52:30 <elliott> i say tolky-en to remind myself it's not "tolkein"
21:52:32 <Bike> elliott: tokin'
21:52:33 <ais523> bleh, I'm not sure offhand what page it's on
21:52:53 <olsner> ais523: you'll have to read all of them anyway, so it doesn't really matter where you start
21:52:58 <elliott> i remember when i would have written a statement like that
21:53:01 <Bike> that reminds me of one of my favorite internet games
21:53:02 <nooodl_> Favourite Shakespeare play:
21:53:12 <Bike> going to fanfiction.net and looking at the crossover section for thousands-year-old literature
21:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I pronounce Tolkien in Sindarin of course
21:53:24 <elliott> "Dislikes: [...] incompetence"
21:53:33 <elliott> man I just love incompetence though
21:53:38 <Bike> somebody in this world has thought that Powerpuff Girls/Aenid slash fanfiction was a good idea
21:53:39 <elliott> gimme some of that incompetence and I'll have my saturday night
21:53:51 <elliott> Bike: you know I can't quite disagree
21:53:58 <nooodl_> elliott: what about some illiteracy
21:54:07 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: lol, latin
21:54:19 <nooodl_> relatedly: "Dido and Anaeas"
21:54:29 <elliott> The Odyssey: Pokemon Ranger style! by XxDragonstarxX reviews
21:54:29 <elliott> Will Spenser ever reach Ithica in time to stop Billy and his army of suitors from marrying his wife Natumi?What has he gone through?At which losses?
21:54:35 <nooodl_> it's "aeneis" if you're Good
21:54:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, gilgamesh fanfic? Stop hurting my brain :/
21:54:37 -!- monqy has joined.
21:54:43 <Bike> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6365901/1/The-Scibe-Of-Gilgamesh
21:54:48 <elliott> Odysseus and the Battle of Hogwarts by asymmetricalpasta03
21:54:48 <elliott> This was an assignment for our Odessey unit in 9th grade. It is horrible. I expect this to get very little in the way of views and taken down. I wasn't impressed with it then, and am not now. But hey, it might be great literature for somebody. Enjoy. Or don't. Oh, one more thing. It's set in Book 6: Consider this your spoiler warning.
21:55:03 <Bike> "the Priestess of Ereshkigal, Gwenevere Eveili"
21:55:09 <Bike> elliott: i hope you understand how this works
21:55:12 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: isn't that the original
21:55:15 <elliott> hey monqy we're looking at bad fanfiction
21:55:26 <nooodl_> look for crossover fanfics
21:55:26 <monqy> is this because of sgeo
21:55:27 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:55:32 <nooodl_> between literary famous things and other things
21:55:42 <nooodl_> like aeneid + harry potter or something?
21:56:16 <oerjan> <Taneb> oerjan, a prophet <- AUM
21:56:34 <Bike> "Slender Man and Hetalia crossover ONESHOT! Warnings: a little FrUk, America x France, swearing, etc..."
21:56:37 <Bike> it's a good game
21:57:01 <Taneb> Wow, two things I used to be in to then I got bored then they got really popular
21:57:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was just about to ask the same
21:57:10 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's like Scandinavia and the World but different
21:57:28 <Bike> http://www.fanfiction.net/crossovers/Minecraft/7691/ Yeah, I'm done after this.
21:57:28 <doesthiswork> ..oh! now I get it the "this will blow you mind" comments are sarcasm
21:57:29 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is "Scandinavia and the World"?
21:57:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, depends on the definition of "cloyingly"
21:57:46 <olsner> iirc it's an anime where a bunch of countries are represented as characters and have fun times together
21:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.fanfiction.net/Bible-and-Minecraft-Crossovers/700/7691/
21:57:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's anthropomorphised world war ii
21:57:53 <Taneb> Vorpal, something a bit like Hetalia
21:57:58 <elliott> no word yet on why anyone thought this was a good idea
21:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, do they actually touch on, like, the whole holocaust thing
21:58:15 <nooodl_> http://www.fanfiction.net/Back-to-the-Future-and-Great-Expectations-Crossovers/176/4075/
21:58:28 <Vorpal> that could possibly work
21:58:30 <elliott> Bike: how are there *25* Minecraft+My Little Pony fanfictions
21:58:37 <monqy> i should get in on this fanfictions thing
21:58:40 <Bike> elliott: you understand now
21:58:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how is there any fan fiction for minecraft...
21:59:03 <elliott> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8762946/1/Cave-Minecraft
21:59:06 <elliott> cave story + minecraft crossover poem
21:59:12 <nooodl_> monqy: go to http://www.fanfiction.net/ and click a "crossover" link
21:59:21 <Vorpal> what is there to base minecraft fan fiction on?
21:59:22 <elliott> the twist ending is that it's actually terraria + minecraft crossover poem
21:59:33 <Vorpal> minecraft has literally no lore or story
21:59:42 <monqy> elliott: already done
21:59:56 <nooodl_> there's so much ridiculously bad things on this site
22:00:02 <nooodl_> i don't know which part of it is true
22:00:03 <elliott> `http://www.fanfiction.net/r/8762946/ reviews
22:00:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/http://www.fanfiction.net/r/8762946/: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/http://www.fanfiction.net/r/8762946/: cannot execute: No such file or directory
22:00:35 <nooodl_> nicholas says it like it is
22:00:45 <monqy> Anime/Manga Crossovers Naruto (15,429)
22:00:57 <doesthiswork> there is a harry potter fan fiction that is literally just the books typed in with a couple mentions of harry haveing a sister.
22:01:02 <nooodl_> Hetalia - Axis Powers (2,308)
22:01:06 <nooodl_> this is more important because
22:01:11 <monqy> Naruto Crossovers Harry Potter (1,461)
22:01:16 <nooodl_> hetalia axis powers fans are :|
22:01:29 <elliott> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6139756/1/James-Bond-and-the-Black-Man
22:01:29 <monqy> sgeo likes naruto and harry potter fanfiction right
22:01:33 <elliott> james bond + odyssey crossover fanfiction
22:01:51 <monqy> Harry Potter and the cloaked death » by Dinner
22:01:54 <Bike> Other fun but more depressing things to do include looking up fanfiction by word count.
22:02:02 <Bike> There's this one of some anime that's like, longer than Proust.
22:02:04 <monqy> Meeting Death is the end for most, if not all living creatures. But what happens when it is not Death that sends you to your next great adventure? Rated T for death and gore later in the story. No ships, no yaoi, no bashing and no, this story does not feature a pink pony or flubberworms, seriously; why do you keep asking that?
22:02:06 <elliott> i think this one is nonserious :(
22:02:20 <Vorpal> lets write a fan fiction which is a cross over of everything, and also X-rated
22:02:38 <Vorpal> or if not everything, at least about a 100 things
22:02:38 <monqy> Valentine's Day For the Messenger by Kyuubi16 Hermione Granger was never fond of Valentine's Day. Though things might change when a certain spiky blonde hair friend of hers conveys to her why she's his perfect Valentine.
22:02:41 <Bike> And Then They All Fucked: An Epic in Terza Rima
22:03:11 <Vorpal> does actual good fanfic even exist?
22:03:24 <monqy> have you ever read anything by hans von hozel
22:03:27 <nooodl_> i can't remember reading good fanfic
22:03:46 <Vorpal> monqy, no clue who that even is
22:03:57 <elliott> i recall reading fanfiction and liking it but i've forgotten what it was
22:04:00 <monqy> Things we hide » by Ezra Scarlet -- Naruot hides many things behind that mask of his.So many things that he has no intention of ever telling anyone.Suddenly,Naruto and the rest of team 7 are sent on a mission to protect Harry Potter.Will Naruto be able to keep his many secrets,protect Harry from evil snake-temes and ward of questions from his teamates,all at the same time?takes place during
22:04:22 <Bike> Hans is basically Homer and Shakespeare and Eliot combined in one sexy, sexy package
22:04:39 <kmc> i only read the first 200 pages of HPMOR but it has some good moments
22:04:58 <Bike> You are not sexy enough to be in this package.
22:05:08 <elliott> how do you know i'm not sexy!!!!
22:05:19 <Bike> Aren't you like underage
22:05:31 <Bike> are you trying to entrap me in a snare of illegal child pornography of yourself
22:05:33 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:05:58 <Sgeo> I'm not a libertarian. Also, not sure if I might be a dickhead despite implications in this channel that unlike that person, I'm not a dickhead.
22:06:01 <Taneb> Harry Potter and the...
22:06:05 <Taneb> Methods of Rationality
22:06:11 <Bike> you're not a dickhead, sgeo.
22:06:16 <kmc> http://cache.futurelooks.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/GIGABYTE-G1-Killer-Assassin-2-Sandy-Bridge-E-Motherboard-2.jpg
22:06:23 <Taneb> Thank god for my memory and wasted time on TVTropes
22:06:28 <kmc> this is the problem with PC hardware
22:06:41 <olsner> Sgeo: are you eating properly?
22:06:44 <Vorpal> kmc, that is the problem with overpriced PC *gaming* hardware
22:06:58 <zzo38> If .VGM ever add the support of Amiga Paula chip, then I might make the .MOD to .VGM but in order to do so, also I want to know what character set the Amiga ProTracker use for 0x80-0xFF character codes, and the conversion table into UTF-16.
22:07:03 <elliott> Bike: man I remember when I was 10 and knew more than everyone else around me
22:07:03 <Sgeo> Was talking via email to a very religious friend recently. After I emailed her something, she said some stuff and then said "she's kind of tired of this conversation, unless ...", and then I replied to that stuff before saying that I'll be quiet now.
22:07:06 <Vorpal> kmc, is it photoshopped?
22:07:10 <kmc> Vorpal: don't think so
22:07:14 <elliott> Bike: possibly that even lasted until I was 12
22:07:17 <Bike> elliott: Those were bad times, man. Baaaaad times.
22:07:29 <kmc> Vorpal: there's very little between "shit computers for office workers" and "overpriced gaming hardware"
22:07:40 <kmc> in some product categories there is literally nothing
22:07:42 <kmc> for example wired mice
22:08:10 <shachaf> ...Oh, *that* kind of product category.
22:08:12 <elliott> kmc: i read "product categories" as in
22:08:15 <elliott> the product of two categories
22:08:22 <Vorpal> kmc, uh, there is or was, I have a MS Comfort Optical Mouse 3000 that I really like
22:08:31 <Vorpal> don't think that model is still being made
22:09:03 <kmc> i like http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104577
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22:09:04 <zzo38> I want the wired three buttons mouse without the scroll wheel, do they have those?
22:09:21 <Vorpal> kmc, that is right hand only right?
22:09:21 <kmc> which is advertised as a "gaming mouse" but it doesn't have like a glowing cutout of a skeleton fucking a robot elf
22:09:22 <Bike> don't know if they're still manufactured
22:09:33 <Vorpal> kmc, I shift often so I need a symmetric mouse
22:09:37 <kmc> Vorpal: hm, i guess so
22:09:42 <kmc> why do you shift?
22:09:50 <Vorpal> kmc, to reduce strain on either hand
22:09:56 <Vorpal> I had some issues with that in the past
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22:11:04 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway, you can go for work station rather than "gaming" or "cheap office"
22:11:15 <Vorpal> but usually it ends up even more expensive then
22:11:38 <Vorpal> say, thinkpad for example
22:11:42 <Bike> my computer is like a netbook i got for under $200, i see people talking about buying computers and get mildly frightened
22:12:16 <Vorpal> I think my desktop cost around 9000 SEK when I bought it
22:12:29 <Vorpal> and my laptop around that too
22:12:37 <kmc> i have this case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042
22:12:56 <kmc> which i like a lot, but there were very few other options in the same quality/price range that don't look entirely ridiculous
22:13:10 <Vorpal> my laptop is a thinkpad though, so the price/performance is not all that good, but it is well built and has a track point at least
22:13:46 <Vorpal> kmc, I have a Antec P183, it only has a tiny blue LED on front for the power
22:13:53 <Vorpal> no glowing silliness or such
22:14:23 <Vorpal> elliott, even tiny faint ones?
22:14:29 <kmc> Vorpal: looks pretty good, like 3x as expensive though
22:14:37 <olsner> pretty sure blue LEDs don't come in "faint" models
22:14:44 <kmc> i think i got the Three Hundred for $40
22:14:50 <Vorpal> kmc, isolates the noise quite well though
22:14:55 <Vorpal> kmc, which was the main thing for me
22:14:57 <kmc> olsner: i put a 10 kΩ resistor in series with my power LED on one of my computers
22:15:05 <kmc> that makes it pretty dim
22:15:23 <Vorpal> kmc, lets just say there is a hell of a difference when I open the front door
22:15:39 <Vorpal> kmc, and I'm quite sensitive to noise
22:16:17 <shachaf> i guess elliott is a fan of R"hi(ultraviolent leds)hi"
22:16:41 <Vorpal> olsner, well it is pretty weak and it is also recessed, so from where I sit it ends up faint
22:18:11 <shachaf> You can make up your own delimiter.
22:18:15 <olsner> really? c++11 has that?
22:18:21 <shachaf> C++11 has everything, man.
22:18:37 <Taneb> C++11 even has lenses
22:18:45 <olsner> it's really hard to tell if something is a joke or an actual c++11 feature
22:19:03 <shachaf> kmc should make one of those online quizzes.
22:19:17 <Taneb> Vorpal, I was joking. shachaf may not have been.
22:19:41 <kmc> shachaf: you should write a lens library for Boost
22:19:41 <olsner> Vorpal: lenses exist in all things
22:19:47 <Taneb> Although I don't know enough about C++11 to know if that's impossible or not
22:20:12 <Vorpal> olsner, oh? I haven't really more than glanced at them, so I couldn't possibly comment on that
22:21:05 <olsner> someone might want to take a list of koans and replace well-chosen words with lens-related terms
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22:22:24 <Taneb> A monk once asked edwardk, "What is a lens?". edwardk answered him with "The Six Ungraspables."
22:22:45 <Sgeo> Funny, I'm about to ask a Lens question
22:22:51 <monqy> i think i had a dream about lens
22:23:12 <monqy> because i have these funky lens memories but i dont think they ever happened in reality
22:23:57 <Vorpal> monqy, maybe you were high on lenses at the time?
22:24:19 <monqy> what sort of sin are we talking here
22:24:27 <Sgeo> I assume the paper from a paper plate won't kill me if some gets ingested
22:24:32 <Vorpal> should we notify the police?
22:24:40 <shachaf> um it involved monad explanations
22:25:16 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I mentioned it in here already.
22:25:59 <shachaf> do i need to say some hail monqys
22:26:21 <olsner> Sgeo: food is commonly served on poison
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22:27:51 <Taneb> shachaf, at the end of his annual summer meditation retreat, said to his monks "The whole summer I have lectured you. Look! Has shachaf any eyebrows?" aristid said: "A robber knows in his heart he is a thief." ocharles said: "Far from dropping off from too much talking, they have grown longer!" But then edwardk forcefully shouted: "Kan!"
22:28:39 <Bike> Does lens have full kōan support?
22:29:00 <shachaf> Is there such a thing as a full kōan?
22:29:11 <Taneb> Bike, forall f => Functor f
22:32:26 <Taneb> (ignore the incorrect Haskell)
22:35:05 <kmc> khaaaaaaaaaaan
22:35:21 <kmc> ^ the khan extension
22:35:22 <olsner> this CVS Best Practices guide has a chapter on how to "Institutionalize CVS in the Organization" (sadly they mean the wrong thing)
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22:36:02 <Sgeo> Taneb, seems though like everyone except me and Gregor left on an expidition
22:36:08 <Sgeo> It's kind of lonely :(
22:36:34 <monqy> maybe Taneb can keep Sgeo company
22:37:19 <Bike> "The notion of Kan extensions subsumes all the other fundamental concepts of category theory." cool
22:37:52 <Taneb> THis is a fun time to realise I have neither Minecraft nor Java on this computer
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23:12:35 <Taneb> A monk once asked edwardk: "What is this place where knowledge is useless?" edwardk answered him: "#esoteric"
23:13:03 <elliott> i remember when edwardk was in #esoteric
23:13:21 <Taneb> Apparently I met cpressey
23:14:48 <monqy> one time i was here and zomgmodules was here but i forget it. it's like i was a child in that i dont remember it
23:15:07 <Bike> is meeting cpressey like the end of 2001
23:15:14 <elliott> was cpresey really not around when monqy was ever?
23:16:22 <Taneb> edwardk once said to his disciples "However wonderful an operator is, may be that it is better not to have it at all"
23:17:04 <elliott> that doesn't sound like edwardk at all
23:17:13 <Bike> you should do the one where he kills his disciple for no reason
23:17:22 <Taneb> If you meat edwardk on the road, kill him
23:17:38 <Bike> not that one, the other one
23:17:43 <monqy> i hope never to meat edwardk on the road
23:17:45 <elliott> taneb i think you may have made a typo
23:17:50 <monqy> i hope never to meat anyone, really
23:17:52 <elliott> it changes the meaning of your sentence slightly
23:18:01 <Taneb> I meant exactly what I said
23:18:10 <Bike> the road is a pretty kinky place to meat people taneb
23:18:21 <monqy> meating's like roadkill right
23:18:26 <Taneb> Bike, less kinkier than, eg, the train station
23:18:28 <monqy> you run over a person and then they're meat
23:18:39 <Bike> They were meat before you ran them over too.
23:18:43 <Bike> But I was referring to fucking.
23:18:46 <Taneb> monqy, no, meating is when you throw hamsteaks at people
23:19:02 <Taneb> monqy, that is hideous
23:21:36 <Bike> what is lens? everyday programming is lens. can it be studied? if you try to study, you will be far away from it. if i do not study, how can i know it is for ruby ninjas with ten years of experience? lens does not belong to the typed world, nor does it belong to the untyped world. typing is a delusion and lack of typing is senseless. if you want to reach the true lens, place yourself in the same freedom as fortran. you name it either elegant o
23:22:00 <shachaf> Bike: /script load splitlong.pl
23:22:26 <Bike> i figured that would cut off but i don't care because it's dumb
23:23:01 <shachaf> elliott: my money is on an r
23:23:07 <Bike> if you want to reach the true lens, place yourself in the same freedom as fortran. you name it either elegant or not-elegant.
23:24:04 <Bike> Anyway I couldn't find it so you got that instead.
23:24:08 <Bike> Just imagine at some point a monk dies.
23:25:12 <olsner> silly talk, monks don't die
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23:28:15 <Taneb> copyright whoever owns Miranda
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23:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/193r5r/why_infinity_is_stupid/
23:36:54 <Bike> that's quite unlikely
23:37:20 <olsner> "Out side of human perception it is impossible. I had to do a paper on it ..."
23:37:20 <elliott> If a quantum is the smallest something can get and we have this law about not making new ones if you we're to measure the universe in quanta wouldn't the smallest number that can exist be set by Planck constant and the largest by the total of quanta and we would have a physical cap to all numbers.
23:38:05 <Bike> wow there are serious replies
23:38:17 <elliott> doesthiswork: somehow I doubt that
23:38:23 <Bike> or well, one serious reply
23:39:26 <Taneb> I get annoyed sometimes because nobody else rhymes finite and infinite
23:39:52 <Taneb> And then they make fun of me
23:40:41 <Taneb> Both rhyme with "in it"
23:40:59 <Sgeo> Bike, and another serious reply (mine)
23:41:16 <Bike> yours wasn't there when i looked
23:41:21 <Sgeo> I just posted it
23:41:24 <Bike> also i didn't mean that as a "hm there should be more serious replies"
23:41:53 <doesthiswork> I don't think they're a lost cause yet, their young and trying to understand
23:42:02 <Bike> "I posted here cause its math it has numbers but ill delete if its out of place." also i think this poster is like fourteen probably
23:42:25 <Bike> also also i have a horrible feeling that i should get into an argument with you about the True Nature of mathematical reality
23:42:57 <olsner> Taneb: that's fairly normal I think, think of e.g. excel and excellent
23:42:59 <Bike> "Do Roman numerals end or is there a point where they run out of new letters and just keep adding the largest numeral to its self?" good poster
23:44:19 <Slereah> There's the bar you can add to some numerals to turn them into thousands or something I think?
23:44:28 <Slereah> But overall I believe they run out at some point
23:44:54 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/17ya8x/but_seriously/c8a313e help i can't stop
23:45:10 <doesthiswork> thy actually do make sense when you see them as a landmark system
23:45:29 <Slereah> It's not like the romans really needed things like a billion
23:45:52 <elliott> Slereah: um what if they wanted a list of numbers that don't exist
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23:46:11 <Slereah> Well then they invented new numbers!
23:46:27 <Slereah> I think Archimedes did a special number system for very large numbers?
23:46:45 <Bike> yeah, for the sand reckoner.
23:47:03 <Slereah> Did any individual in particular need ONE BILLION
23:47:20 <elliott> the greeks had a billion moneys?
23:47:25 <elliott> i just kinda assumed they had like 100
23:47:33 <elliott> because it was a toy model civilisation like you'd buy in a box
23:47:37 <Bike> i shudder to consider how long division works with roman numerals
23:47:38 <Slereah> Nah, the greeks are only poor nowadays!
23:47:39 <elliott> simplified down so you can learn about it in history class
23:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, well they might well have wanted to know how much money everyone was making...
23:48:03 <Bike> The romans are also simplified down, they were just also on fire more often.
23:48:59 <Slereah> I guess maybe there was some bureaucrat who had to estimate the Empire's GDP at some point
23:49:03 <Slereah> Not sure if that was the case
23:52:19 <olsner> "The name sestertius (originally semis-tertius) means "2 ½", the coin's original value in asses"
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23:58:10 <DHeadshot> Bike: That's one hell of a quote right there!
23:58:24 <Slereah> So that means the GDP was about 50 billion asses!
23:58:44 <Bike> what's a quote
23:59:49 <olsner> the one with the romans and the fire?