00:00:05 <elliott> Maybe's monoid instance sucks a bit
00:00:16 <FreeFull> > let fhead x = fromMaybe x . Data.Foldable.foldl (\x acc -> Just x) Nothing in fhead [] [1,2,3]
00:00:19 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
00:01:00 <zzo38> Does teletext have music? The documentation for Yamaha OPLL mentions tones applicable to teletext.
00:01:16 <FreeFull> zzo38: I don't recall it ever having music
00:01:56 <ais523> zzo38: teletext information placed in the vblank space of a TV broadcast has no music
00:02:19 <ais523> sometimes, though, the rendered version of teletext used to be sent over TV to fill in a gap where nothing was broadcasting
00:02:23 <ais523> and in that case, music was often sent with it
00:03:04 <FreeFull> ais523: But that would be just standard audio?
00:04:15 <zzo38> But then it isn't FM synthesis? Then why does OPLL documentation mention tones applicable to teletext?
00:07:51 <FreeFull> I don't think most TVs have FM synth chips
00:08:18 <zzo38> I would like if the channel 2 (On TVL) we have in my area would also include teletext (but as far as I know it doesn't).
00:08:24 <zzo38> FreeFull: I don't think so either
00:09:10 <zzo38> They should also put teletext on the weather channel too.
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02:17:14 <elliott> ais523: Wonko was the person who wrote -Like this.-, right?
02:17:21 <ais523> no, that was the Baron
02:17:28 <ais523> -Bike: it's very unnerving-
02:17:39 <ais523> -it's ridiculous how creepy it is-
02:19:05 <oerjan> I don't see what's so creepy
02:19:21 <ais523> -well that was only around the nick, it doesn't count-
02:19:28 <ais523> -ok commas ruin the effect-
02:19:32 <ais523> -as does monqy grammar-
02:19:52 <oerjan> -what is monqy grammar-
02:19:54 <ais523> kmc: never do that again
02:20:08 <ais523> elliott: somehow that's not as bad
02:20:17 -!- ais523 has left ("<fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api").
02:20:56 <oerjan> another chapter for our "1001 ways to make ais523 ragepat" book
02:21:36 <Bike> what is 30????
02:21:44 <elliott> oh i forgot ragepat is a thing
02:22:26 <HackEgo> 2012-01-20.txt:15:06:55: <oerjan> i haven't seen him since he ragepatted
02:23:00 <HackEgo> 2012-01-11.txt:19:25:53: <elliott> *Ragepat
02:23:30 <oerjan> -i still want to understand what monqy grammar is-
02:24:17 <oerjan> -is it using nouns as sentences-
02:24:18 <Bike> Eliding punctuation and capitalization, lots of "um" "ok" etc.?
02:24:47 <oerjan> -oh ok ic got it right down there-
02:25:15 <oerjan> >i think these as starting to fray at the ends<
02:26:01 <oerjan> |what is the creepiest way of doing this anyway|
02:26:50 <zzo38> oerjan: Use control characters, maybe?
02:27:07 <oerjan> ah ic youre eliding punctuation to save it all for big bursts?
02:28:00 <oerjan> that's just crazy talk
02:28:13 <Bike> is this, like, foreplay
02:28:57 <oerjan> no this is all good wholesome driving people crazy
02:29:14 <zzo38> No. It is, like, 4play, which is different.
02:29:17 <Bike> who are you driving crazy? yourselves?
02:29:30 <Bike> that seems inefficient
02:29:43 <zzo38> To you it is, perhaps.
02:29:50 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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02:30:32 <Bike> I haven't read Alice. I am immune to its power.
02:32:43 <oerjan> `run echo "Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu." | colorize | tee wisdom/colour >wisdom/color; sed -i 's/or/our/' wisdom/colour
02:32:57 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
02:33:39 <zzo38> Color is not limited to outer space and it is not only for driving humanity insane and it is also not only for Cthulhu. But I suppose that can be one possible use.
02:34:08 <oerjan> that's just what a shoggoth would say
02:34:09 <zzo38> The other use is for syntax highlighting.
02:34:16 <Jafet> This explains why americans are crazy and worship cthulhu
02:35:02 <Bike> oerjan: http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-8900-ex
02:36:05 <zzo38> What is the SCP number for Death Note? What I hate about SCP is keep deleting files and changing around the numbers when they replace a deleted one using a same number.
02:36:45 <Bike> zzo38: http://www.scp-wiki.net/archived-scps they keep 'em
02:37:46 <Sgeo> That's only for ones notable enough to keep
02:37:55 <Sgeo> Ruby of Ruination is deleted forever :(
02:38:19 <Bike> never heard of it.
02:38:29 <zzo38> Is the number reused?
02:38:48 <Sgeo> zzo38, yes. Whether or not an old one was ARCed or merely deleted
02:38:51 <Bike> http://scpclassic.wikidot.com/scp-031 Oh.
02:38:55 <Jafet> http://brake-down.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Invention-of-Color.jpg
02:39:56 <Bike> Calvin's dad is a jaded ex-O5.
02:40:25 <Sgeo> Was deleted a long time ago because the origins make no sense... how has it not destroyed the world already
02:41:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is problem to me! Other than that, there are other things I hate about it too such as, it is not open to everyone (including thought-experiments), and some other problems too. So we could make "Open SCP" which is open for everyone, even if the origins make no sense, and which nothing is ever deleted or numbers reused either.
02:41:30 <Bike> It's kind of boring... SCP already has a lot of "object destroys matter"
02:41:35 <zzo38> To distinguish number write a different prefix so you know it is not the same one.
02:42:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, but then you'd get a lot of poorly written ones, boring ones, etc.
02:42:36 <zzo38> If it is boring then instead let's community (open to everyone) to down-vote so that they can sorted by rating and by similarity, too, so if they have a lot of one you can still improve the quality subjectively without having to delete things and reuse numbers.
02:42:39 <Bike> Also it would be indistinguishable from "hey write something and number it"
02:43:25 <Bike> and scp has ratings.
02:43:46 <zzo38> In addition, to find the entries which are considered as best and put those into the book, so that you will have a improve quality as well as a normal one?
02:43:59 <Bike> but, i'm shallow, i'll be happy as long as they keep Red Sea Object
02:44:27 <zzo38> But maybe they won't? I think they change things too much.
02:45:01 <zzo38> (Anyways, even if such thing as Open SCP is made it is not meaning SCP will stop! It just means an alternative......)
02:45:12 <Bike> haven't they already forked once or twice?
02:46:10 <zzo38> Maybe, I don't know, but we need the one which is open, rather than closed to the selected group of writers, doctors, overseers, wikidot employees, and so on.
02:46:26 <zzo38> And which never reuses numbers.
02:46:45 <zzo38> If you really need to delete something, just put it in the attic and then promise not to reuse their numbers for other things.
02:46:46 <Bike> well, would be easy to make one, i guess
02:47:00 <Bike> are numbers that important
02:47:13 <zzo38> (Doesn't CVS put things in the attic or something like that?)
02:49:56 <zzo38> SCP also misses so many things I can think of, but they won't work like that, so that is why, to make the open one which can make anyone's "thought experiment" you can improved; if one is no good you can still use pure wiki deletion and individual user can still have archive of their best ones too, all while still keeping the numbering to be not confused.
02:50:10 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, the numbers is the most important.
02:52:55 <zzo38> It also helps if one document references another, to keep the references to work properly, instead of wrongly.
02:53:18 <tswett> Sgeo: Ruby of Ruination? The one that, when placed on top of a solid object, vibrates at that object's resonant frequency?
02:53:32 <zzo38> But there are other reasons too such as some people might like one even though other people hate it, it can be a hiding threshold (somewhat like Slashdot does, but different)
02:54:02 <Bike> do all objects even have resonant frequencies, that seems impossible
02:54:49 <zzo38> And one of the entries could be, referencing the nonexistent wiki which is similar and has a reference to this real one, though (similar to what Hofstadter did)
02:55:10 <tswett> I think most if not all solid objects have resonant frequencies, but vibrating at that frequency will not necessarily have any significant effect.
02:55:37 <tswett> Come to think of it, "resonant frequency" pretty much means "frequency that you hear when you bang on it".
02:55:58 <zzo38> tswett: I suppose it can be interesting to some circumstance nevertheless
02:56:24 <zzo38> For example, make up a situation which it is difficult but if you have such a thing see how to succeed at it?
03:00:45 <zzo38> "Object destroys matter" is not the interested much by itself, but some object which can sometimes do so, and has other effect, might have something to be interesting of in some cases, possibly.
03:02:31 <zzo38> Does a resonant frequency of a piano change if the keys is not pushed than if it is?
03:03:09 <tswett> Well, different parts of the piano have different resonant frequencies.
03:03:43 <tswett> If the damper is down on a string, that probably slightly raises the resonant frequency of that string.
03:04:07 <tswett> But the main effect of the damper is, of course, to keep that string from vibrating at all.
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03:30:34 <zzo38> I know the damper stops it from vibrating. I also know (because I tried it), that if you slowly push one key to make it silent, push another one it might resonate the string that is released but currently not vibrating.
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03:44:18 <madbr> man, trying to do a pipelined/superscalar 32bit version of the 65816 is not so cool
03:44:40 <madbr> the instruction set is just designed to stop up
03:45:53 <zzo38> Maybe you have to make up additional instructions or flags or whatever then, or require explicit pipelines and delays and so on in the program
03:46:25 <madbr> the instruction set is completely full
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03:46:59 <zzo38> Or to modify things, especially if making 32-bits and so on you may need to modify some things I would think
03:48:35 <madbr> Man, C++ pointer aliasing is awful... it's pretty much the one thing that prevents you from autovectorizing all sorts of code
03:48:58 <zzo38> Does the LLVM pointer aliasing work better?
03:49:36 <Fiora> I saw this cool optimization ICC did in some cases a bit ago where it actually makes a runtime branch to check for aliasing
03:49:51 <Fiora> so where it can prove there won't be aliasing, it can branch and do the simd optimizations on the non-aliasing side
03:50:11 <zzo38> OK, I suppose in some cases it might be useful.
03:51:48 <madbr> the crusoe pushed that even further
03:52:01 <madbr> it has protected memory load/store instructions
03:52:34 <madbr> it doesn't actually store information, it writes to a store buffer
03:52:53 <madbr> and once it can verify that no aliasing occured, it does the real write
03:53:10 <madbr> that way it can reorder read/writes
03:53:37 <madbr> llvm has an alias analysis class yes: http://llvm.org/docs/AliasAnalysis.html
03:53:44 <Fiora> don't a lot of modern machines do that internally?
03:53:59 <Fiora> I know at least intel chips actually do speculative loads where they try loading something assuming aliasing won't occur
03:54:04 <Fiora> and then redo the load if aliasing did occur
03:54:16 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I have seen that, what I mean, is it better than C++ if you enter the LLVM instructions to make aliasing?
03:55:11 <Bike> Can you not improve the optimization with whatever that declaration is?
03:55:13 <Fiora> they have a thing in the optimization manual if I remember right about the case where code with lots of conflicts results in lots of wasted speculative loads, and how to avoid it
03:56:28 <madbr> zzo: you can use some strange C++ keywords like noalias
03:57:03 <madbr> zzo: there's also strict aliasing that helps (the rule that says that different types of pointers except char * can't alias)
03:57:10 <Bike> Um... restrict, that one.
03:57:19 <Bike> Oh that's not in C++ is it.
03:57:30 <Fiora> I think C++ has different aliasing rules from C but I'm not sure
03:57:38 <Bike> «In C++, pointer arguments are assumed not to alias if they point to fundamentally different types ("strict aliasing" rules). This allows more optimizations to be done than in C.» uhhhhh ok then
03:57:40 <madbr> yeah I can't remember
03:57:50 <Fiora> strict-aliasing isn't really a rule I think, it's more like
03:58:00 <madbr> bike: yeah they have to do that
03:58:09 <Fiora> "set no-strict-aliasing to make things less likely to break if your code violates the rules"
03:58:18 <madbr> or else you can do horrible stuff like alias to pointers of other things
03:58:23 <zzo38> I think LLVM has a kind of metadata for aliasing, to specify which types alias which others more specifically
03:58:29 <madbr> so very fast everything aliases everything else
03:59:25 <zzo38> Fiora: Well, it would be better, having it you can set on each individual variable, what aliasing to use. I think GCC might have such a thing possibly?
03:59:59 <Fiora> um... the two keywords I know of are may_alias and restrict
04:00:14 <Fiora> __attribute__((may_alias)) lets you override the C aliasing rules
04:00:19 <Fiora> it's useful sometimes when you want to do horrible things
04:00:37 <Fiora> restrict is just, this pointer won't alias anything else basically I think
04:00:47 <shachaf> restrict is in C99 or something now, isn't it?
04:00:54 <Fiora> Yeah, it's standard now
04:01:01 <Bike> "it wasn't in C99 a while ago"
04:01:40 <shachaf> Bike: C99 only started existing in 2008 or so.
04:02:44 <myndzi> hey dudes, any security-minded types in here? wanna bounce something off ya re: nonces
04:02:48 <shachaf> ℂ99 is a category where the objects are types and the arrows are undefined behavior.
04:03:05 <Bike> Huh, c90 didn't have inline
04:03:45 <shachaf> myndzi: imo you should just say it into the abyss
04:03:58 <shachaf> ("thats a metaphor for this channel")
04:04:00 <zzo38> myndzi: What about it?
04:04:00 <Fiora> I think a lot of the c99 stuff got added to compilers as extensions first
04:04:08 <Fiora> and then they were like "oh well we should, like, standardize this"
04:04:22 <shachaf> Sounds like a reasonable way to add things.
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04:04:45 <zzo38> I don't like a lot of the things C99 does (but I like some).
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04:05:15 <myndzi> yeah, i was talking somewhere else too
04:05:19 <Bike> Fiora: wikipedia agrees so you're right
04:05:35 <myndzi> so in the context of web forms, nonces are useful to protect against blind submissions yeah?
04:05:53 <myndzi> but they don't add much other than that; if an attacker had access to the network traffic they could simply sniff the nonce and spoof the form submission directly
04:06:08 <myndzi> i suppose so, i don't know the exact technical definition there
04:06:25 <shachaf> The main goal is that you can't take someone's browser -- which is logged in -- and have it submit some evil request.
04:06:29 <myndzi> so, i'm moving a bunch of code from php pages to ajax stuff
04:06:31 <shachaf> Like /delete_my_account or something.
04:06:48 <myndzi> that's more about requiring reauthorization
04:06:57 <myndzi> if you were authenticated by cookie/session
04:07:12 <myndzi> to prevent someone from issuing arbitrary commands
04:07:16 <shachaf> Or maybe we're talking about different things anyway.
04:07:17 <myndzi> you make them re-supply the password
04:07:22 <zzo38> Using HTTP/HTML stuff at all (even HTTPS) can make it very insecure in general.
04:07:23 <shachaf> For every possible action?
04:07:24 <myndzi> if they were "remembered"
04:07:33 <myndzi> no, just for important ones
04:07:41 <myndzi> billing, authentication related
04:07:42 <shachaf> OK, then take the most important unimportant action.
04:07:50 <shachaf> You still don't want some random person to be able to submit that.
04:08:01 <myndzi> sure, but a nonce doesn't protect against that
04:08:06 <myndzi> anyway, this isn't even the question
04:08:26 <myndzi> the question is, is it worth using a nonce to protect against blind form submission if you reuse it?
04:08:30 <zzo38> You could make a SSH based system, to do secure stuff
04:08:35 <myndzi> i think so but it feels wrong to reuse anyway
04:08:49 <shachaf> What kind of blind form submission?
04:08:51 <myndzi> the only alternative would be to make ajax requests to get new nonces or something
04:09:05 <myndzi> by blind form submission i mean, submitting data to a form without having loaded the page that the form is on
04:09:13 <myndzi> directly entering a get or post url, for example
04:09:22 <myndzi> that's the only purpose i know of for including nonces with forms
04:09:37 <shachaf> Whom are you preventing from doing what here?
04:10:41 <doesthiswork> you should use "who" because it's the subject of the sentence
04:11:12 <shachaf> That looks like "whom" to me.
04:11:36 <zzo38> No! You should use "wham".
04:11:39 <doesthiswork> whom is the obsolete form used for the direct object
04:11:47 <Bike> questions are weird as shit though
04:12:05 <myndzi> haha, well i have a solution ;)
04:12:11 <myndzi> ajax form submission -> return new nonce
04:12:31 <shachaf> OK, I don't understand the situation or what you're trying to prevent or allow.
04:12:43 <zzo38> I have now typed the 2013Feb26 Dungeons&Dragons game session recordings.
04:13:50 <myndzi> i'm simply trying to implement good practices as i go :P
04:14:37 <shachaf> Good practice #1: Understand what's even, like, going on, man.
04:14:44 <shachaf> Probably you do, but I don't.
04:15:03 <myndzi> in this case, the single-use token (nonce) prevents two things
04:15:08 <myndzi> 1) multiple submission
04:15:36 <myndzi> it ensures that to submit data to a form, the user must 1) load the page, 2) enter the data on the form presented on that page and 3) submit that form
04:15:57 <myndzi> i'm uncertain of any other purposes
04:15:59 <zzo38> I think "worse-is-better" is better.
04:16:20 <myndzi> why would you want to prevent multiple submission, or why would you want to prevent blind submission?
04:16:26 <myndzi> i should think that's obvious
04:16:45 <shachaf> Is the user evil here, or is someone being evil to the user?
04:17:00 <myndzi> or the user could simply be being impatient
04:17:13 <myndzi> or typoing etc. (double enter)
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04:18:07 <shachaf> Impatience as in clicking Submit twice seems more like a UI thing than a security thing to me.
04:18:22 <myndzi> it's not a security thing
04:18:31 <myndzi> but it's prevented by the solution so *shrug*
04:18:36 <myndzi> or at least, accounted for
04:18:52 <shachaf> So someone is being evil to the user. What would they be able to do to the user without this thing?
04:19:03 <myndzi> submit arbitrary form data
04:19:19 <myndzi> in the event that they can get the user to visit a url
04:19:40 <shachaf> OK. So it *is* CSRF that you're worrying about.
04:19:56 <oerjan> <doesthiswork> you should use "who" because it's the subject of the sentence <-- no it is the direct object there, despite word order. "you are preventing _him_ from doing what here?"
04:19:56 <myndzi> i'm not worrying about anything
04:20:02 <shachaf> In that case a CSRF token should be fine.
04:20:16 <shachaf> And reusing it is not particularly awful.
04:20:18 <myndzi> i was simply wondering how to deal with this paradigm over ajax requests
04:20:42 <myndzi> i agree, but it feels dirty somehow
04:20:48 <myndzi> luckily i don't have to
04:30:06 <kmc> "'Marijuana cannon' used to fire drugs over US border seized in Mexico"
04:30:32 <Bike> out of a sub I hope
04:30:41 <kmc> nah just a pickup
04:30:45 <kmc> but soon i'm sure
04:31:06 <Bike> short-range submarine-launched marijuana missile
04:31:17 <Bike> delivery straight to your home
04:33:26 <kmc> the convenience
04:33:46 <kmc> i predict quadcopter deliveries of marijuana will begin in SF within the decade
04:33:51 <kmc> if they haven't already
04:37:23 <zzo38> Illegal drugs is an important part of the economy and makes people creative too. Legalizing it might cause problems for these reasons?
04:37:50 <shachaf> would drugs not make you creative if they were legal?
04:38:15 <Bike> Yeah would be a shame if we lost all that economic innovation from having gangs literally at war in Mexico
04:38:35 <zzo38> I have no problem if you want to use these drugs and make yourself dead and whatever, but making them legal might ruin the economy.
04:38:53 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> I have no problem if you want to use these drugs and make yourself dead and whatever, but making them legal might ruin the economy.
04:38:57 <HackEgo> 976) <zzo38> I have no problem if you want to use these drugs and make yourself dead and whatever, but making them legal might ruin the economy.
04:39:44 <kmc> this is an... odd position to take
04:39:55 <Bike> But seriously, broken window fallacy, etc.
04:40:09 <Bike> I mean do you know how much the US spends on enforcement?
04:40:30 <kmc> zzo38: so why does the drug only make you creative if it's illegal?
04:40:45 <shachaf> imo we should illegalize placebos
04:40:52 <Bike> I think he means the creativity engendered by trying to get around the illegality.
04:40:55 <Bike> Like drug cannons.
04:41:05 <zzo38> Yes, like that is what I meant.
04:41:12 <kmc> well let's legalize marijuana and then they can make cocaine cannons instead
04:41:15 <kmc> it's better because of alliteration
04:41:21 <Bike> Man's got a point.
04:41:28 <Bike> kmc for ATF commissioner!
04:41:53 <kmc> if elected I will personally consume more alcohol, tobacco, and firearms than any previous ATF commissioner
04:41:56 <kmc> that is the promise i make
04:42:02 <elliott> are we talking like actually eating guns
04:42:13 <kmc> THE GUN IS GOOD
04:42:16 <kmc> THE PENIS IS EVIL
04:42:39 <Bike> you know how there's that presidential candidate whose platform is just the KJV
04:42:48 <Bike> kmc's like that but with the Zardoz screenplay
04:43:07 <kmc> Stay close to me - inside my aura!
04:44:19 <shachaf> If only I could be a presidential candidate. :-(
04:44:19 <kmc> the voice of the turtle is heard in the land
04:44:25 <kmc> (that's a Zardoz quote *and* a bible quote)
04:44:46 <Bike> shachaf: It's pretty easy! I mean, if you don't mind not being on the ballot.
04:44:58 <shachaf> Bike: Don't I have to be born in the US or something?
04:45:14 <shachaf> Well, depends on president of what, I guess.
04:45:19 <Bike> The CPUSA's VP candidate last year was Colombian, and the prez candidate was underage.
04:45:23 <Bike> I think it was the CPUSA anyway.
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04:46:15 <shachaf> Apparently I can't be president of .fi either.
04:46:21 <shachaf> Can I be president of #esoteric?
04:46:45 <zzo38> How do you write thirteen and a half in roman numbers?
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04:49:47 <Bike> Oh, it was the Party for Socialism and Liberation.
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05:25:22 * Sgeo wonders if Blaze's monad could be made to fit the monad laws
05:25:45 <monqy> what does that mean
05:25:53 <Sgeo> Add a Return constructor. Make m >>= f pass () to f if m is anything other than Return.
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05:26:07 <Sgeo> I _think_ that at least satisfies the first two laws
05:26:16 <monqy> it's not quite a monad if it doesn't satisfy the monad laws, now is it
05:26:16 <Sgeo> Haven't looked at the third yet.
05:26:25 <Sgeo> Fine. Blaze's "monad"
05:26:36 <Sgeo> Thinking about how it could be altered to fix it
05:26:37 <copumpkin> people can talk about satisfying them modulo some equivalence relation
05:26:51 <monqy> btw what's blaze's "monad"
05:27:17 <Sgeo> https://github.com/jaspervdj/blaze-markup/blob/master/src/Text/Blaze/Internal.hs
05:27:18 <monqy> is html a monad now
05:27:37 <tswett> Why would Html be a monad?
05:27:49 <monqy> shachaf: thank you
05:27:54 <Sgeo> The author of the library acted like it was for some conveniences
05:28:04 <tswett> Why would Html even be a type constructor?
05:28:13 <Sgeo> https://github.com/jaspervdj/blaze-markup/blob/master/src/Text/Blaze/Internal.hs#L156
05:28:16 <shachaf> Wasn't Blaze just like Writer Something except broken for some reason?
05:28:34 <shachaf> we should import it into lens
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05:29:06 <shachaf> I guess that one is safe...
05:29:35 <Bike> glad they marked all those inline
05:30:01 <monqy> it's about as safe as fromjust*LESS SAFE????
05:30:45 <shachaf> monqy: why,youcan't get bottom out of it canyou?
05:31:32 <monqy> upon rereading, yeah i guess so
05:31:50 <monqy> what if you bind and then you have a bottom just sitting around
05:32:04 <monqy> and then you try and force that bottom
05:32:13 <shachaf> oh i thought you meant the functor instance
05:32:19 <shachaf> "i didn't even see the monad instance"
05:32:45 <shachaf> why would you make an instance like that
05:33:01 <shachaf> why not just use writer..........................
05:33:11 <monqy> theres a nice monoid instance over there
05:33:21 <shachaf> what is even going on here
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05:33:51 <shachaf> (actually i was already mad to begin with)
05:34:17 <tswett> Because MAD is even more mad than mad.
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05:35:06 <HackEgo> keb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:35:10 <shachaf> so is the point of this instance just to abuse donotation
05:35:18 <tswett> But mad is more mad than MAD. In fact, MAD isn't mad at all; it's just sort of peacefully introspective.
05:35:44 <shachaf> this instance: seriously awful??
05:35:48 <Sgeo> shachaf, one of the examples of using Blaze uses forM_
05:35:50 <monqy> shachaf: well you can use functions that expect monads??? but you'll probably get a lot of bottoms sitting around
05:36:06 <shachaf> monqy: not if they assume the monad laws.........
05:36:09 <lambdabot> Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
05:36:13 <monqy> shachaf: well, that too
05:37:16 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
05:37:37 <Sgeo> shachaf, is it ethical to use a Writer monad primarily for the do notation?
05:38:04 <monqy> using writer is better than making your own broken instance at least
05:38:36 <Bike> Is "Is it ethical" the central question of Haskell?
05:38:49 <monqy> yes you've figured it out
05:39:03 <copumpkin> I think we should build the endokleislicategory monoid and use that with writer
05:39:05 <Bike> The key to Sgeo, also.
05:39:44 <shachaf> http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2006/12/06/divide_zero_feature.shtml
05:40:18 <Bike> Man that was funny when it was new.
05:40:25 <shachaf> I haven't even seen it before.
05:40:28 <monqy> remember that guys other stuff too
05:40:59 <Bike> Yeah. It's good stuff.
05:41:21 * tswett ponders Haskell type magickery for cryptography.
05:42:11 <tswett> We need to turn chosen-key-relations-in-the-middle into Haskell stuff.
05:42:21 <tswett> Oh right, I forgot. I came here to say a specific thing.
05:42:34 <Bike> well i've always heard homomorphic encryption explained in cat theory terms, that's pretty much haskell
05:42:56 <monqy> shachaf: http://www.bookofparagon.com/
05:42:57 <shachaf> Cat theory? That's pretty popular on the Internet.
05:43:15 <Bike> I have a cat on me right now.
05:43:20 <Bike> Her egory is missing.
05:43:23 <tswett> <reset bound="b">you should never tell anyone that <shift bound="b" cont="c">According to a friend of mine, <cont cont="c">you don't like pancakes.</cont></shift></reset>
05:43:31 <Bike> monqy: Oh, christ.
05:43:48 <monqy> Anderson has been trying to market his ideas for transreal arithmetic and "Perspex machines" to investors. He claims that his work can produce computers which run "orders of magnitude faster than today's computers".[7][12] He has also claimed that it can help solve such problems as quantum gravity,[7] the mind-body connection,[13] consciousness[13] and free will.[13]
05:44:23 <shachaf> monqy: how does it compare to vortex math
05:44:34 <monqy> it's in a similar vein
05:44:39 <Bike> Holy shit, I found the solution to the prime numbers. They are a slightly altered fibonacci like sequence on a translated number line! What do I have to be able to show for my discovery to be taken seriously and what issues are there in math regarding primes are there? I don't want people getting credit using my discovery when I can do it myself.
05:44:45 <tswett> Oh yeah,[15] I've heard of those.[2] Kind of a silly[6] idea, isn't it.[6]
05:45:27 <monqy> Bike: where is this
05:47:02 <monqy> is there any followup i want to know more
05:47:53 <Bike> http://boards.4chan.org/sci/res/5569709
05:47:58 <shachaf> The symbol for nullity (bottom)
05:50:26 <Sgeo> "literally no idea what everyone here is babbling on about, OP found a proof that a countably infinite set lies in bijection with a different countably infinite set."
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05:52:59 <monqy> gosh this all went down today?
05:53:22 <Bike> Only the latest bullshit news from your friendly village bicycle.
05:56:28 <doesthiswork> that striping pattern is the result of factors of 3
05:56:29 <tswett> "They are a well define sequence but lack a generating functions."
05:57:08 <tswett> One generating function for the prime numbers is the function f(x) = \sum_{n=1}^\infty p_n x^n, where p_n is the nth prime number.
05:58:02 <Bike> I have a simple algorithm that generates all primes which are multiples of 5. I'm proofreading the paper now, and will submit it this weekend.
05:58:06 <monqy> tswett: :-) have you noticed that 4chan is hell
06:01:23 <doesthiswork> so far I have found a way to generate the first 50 primes using this algorithm
06:01:52 <tswett> "Define the meaning of the limit of a function using only rational numbers."
06:06:10 <madbr> that thread is horrible
06:06:39 <monqy> what did you expect
06:10:32 <doesthiswork> why do they even have a science and math forum, what do they expect to get out of it?
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06:12:05 <zzo38> Why will some programs fail to follow the principle of extended ASCII?
06:12:17 <Sgeo> There's a principle of extended ASCII?
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06:12:24 <Bike> It's a zzoprinciple.
06:13:43 <zzo38> The principle of extended ASCII is that the codes 0x00 to 0x7F are always ASCII, and that the non-ASCII codes are not used for commands and that kinds of stuff (and I didn't just make up this principle).
06:14:08 <shachaf> Is "(and I didn't just make up this principle)" part of the principle?
06:14:44 <zzo38> At least, I don't think so.
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06:16:55 <Bike> Does #erotic real?
06:16:58 <zzo38> Does the filename need a slash?
06:17:38 <Bike> Does #esoteric have an auxilary channel for erotic internet roleplay?
06:17:47 <doesthiswork> zzo38: no but I like it better with it, harry/draco all the way
06:17:49 <kmc> erotic esolangs?
06:18:11 <monqy> does fuckfuck count
06:19:07 <kmc> maybe if you wrote some erotic fiction that is also a fuckfuck program
06:19:56 <Bike> If I write erotic monqy/shachaf fanfiction is it actually nonfiction? Is it Turing complete? Does erotic fanfiction form a monad if it has shachaf in it?
06:20:20 <monqy> all excellent questions
06:21:02 <Bike> I'm pretty sure the slash operator forms a monoid.
06:22:06 <monqy> are you sure it's even associative
06:22:40 <Bike> Oh, maybe you're right...
06:22:45 <Bike> I think I can invert it too though.
06:22:55 <Bike> The identity can be Sgeo.
06:33:32 <zzo38> I found on Wikipedia, the roman numbers for one half is actually S.
06:33:59 <shachaf> what is the roman numbers for epsilon
06:34:29 <zzo38> (actually without the dot; because "S" is 1/2 and "S." is 7/12)
06:34:58 <zzo38> I don't know what is the roman numbers for epsilon.
06:38:32 <kmc> zzo38: is there notation for other numbers of twelfths besides six and seven?
06:38:48 <zzo38> Yes, a colon means 1/6
06:39:08 <zzo38> Look it up in Wikipedia for information
06:40:03 <zzo38> So now I know how to write the name of the "pope" of one of the lesser-known churches I have written about in the Dungeons&Dragons game, using roman numbers.
06:40:23 <Bike> He has fractions in his name?
06:41:39 <zzo38> Meaning fractions.
06:41:54 <Bike> I mean, what do they mean in the context of his name.
06:42:30 <Bike> Usually "Ted Dicksterson III" means "the Ted Dicksterson after Ted Dicksterson II", I don't get how that works with fractions.
06:43:35 <zzo38> Well, for some reason (not precisely known, but there might be theories), one of them taking that name is numbered by a half.
06:44:09 <Sgeo> Bike, you should play Frog Fractions to help you learn about fractions.
06:44:12 <Sgeo> (Sorry, I'm obsessed)
06:45:03 <zzo38> It is of the church of Gxxyuxihuvxi, but instead they will usually say "the deity whose name shall not be mentioned because is difficult to pronounce" instead of their proper name.
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06:45:35 <Bike> How is it pronounced?
06:46:45 <madbr> tell us using phonetic alphabet : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
06:47:01 <madbr> x-sampa is also acceptable if you're familiar with that
06:47:14 <zzo38> One problem is that I don't know how to pronounce, so using symbols won't help!
06:47:48 <zzo38> "Gxxyuxihuvxi" is just the written form of the name (and only when using the English alphabet); not the spoken form.
06:52:53 <Bike> Sgeo this hardly seems very fraction-related at all!
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06:55:35 <Sgeo> The points are fractions, the score is displayed as fraction. Therefore, you're learning about fractions!
06:55:46 <Bike> Actually they're floats now.
06:55:52 <Bike> This is pretty advanced.
06:57:10 <Sgeo> Have you looked through the possible upgrades?
06:59:27 <Bike> Yeah... it's gonna take forever to get that Warp Drive. Stupid economy :(
06:59:37 <zzo38> I read somewhere that the E0x command in .MOD affects the "LED filter" but OpenMPT doesn't have that command?
06:59:44 <Sgeo> (Hint: You need to get the Warp Drive)
06:59:49 <shachaf> Bike: are you playing frog fractions
07:00:19 <shachaf> Sgeo: don't give Bike hints................ just because you got hints doesn't mean you have to spread them on
07:00:32 <shachaf> which part of frog fractions are you on Bike
07:00:52 <zzo38> (I don't know if I have any music files using that command, but still some documents says it is valid commands)
07:01:07 <Bike> The part where I got bored because everything is slow on this machine, and went back to listening to Staircase Whip on infinite repeat.
07:01:45 <tswett> Obviously, "Gxxyuxihuvxi" is pronounced /gksksˈjʌksɪhʌvksi/.
07:02:25 <zzo38> tswett: To you it is. OK
07:02:59 <zzo38> But maybe it is still difficult anyways
07:03:36 <Bike> I'd say /ksks'jʌks/ is difficult yes
07:04:05 <Sgeo> shachaf, maybe Bike needs a hint?
07:04:21 <tswett> /ksksˈjʌks/ isn't a part of that I have difficulty pronouncing.
07:05:20 <zzo38> Also the name is in English letter because is what we have; the proper letters are difficult.
07:05:51 <monqy> save frog fractions for when you have a good computer?? frog fractions deserves it
07:06:14 <tswett> Can it be pronounced correctly using only the human body?
07:06:19 <tswett> (And the air surrounding it?)
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07:07:19 <zzo38> It isn't meant for human to pronounce, but it is difficult for others too anyways.
07:08:16 <tswett> Reminds me of that one Fry and Laurie skit about a guy named "Nippl-e", pronounced by dropping a pen held horizontally from a height of about a foot.
07:13:08 <Deewiant> If I drop it into water, can that be called an accent?
07:14:12 <tswett> Well, any way of pronouncing things is an accent.
07:14:46 <tswett> The only question is whether or not it would sound significantly different.
07:15:38 <tswett> (Do I pronounce "n" differently from most people? Why, yes I do. I pronounce it with my tongue, whereas other people pronounce it with *their* tongues.)
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07:16:28 <shachaf> I pronounce it with your tongue.
07:24:53 <Bike> At this rate my fanfiction will be outdone by the channel itself.
07:25:23 <madbr> I'd do it with a click
07:25:54 <shachaf> Bike: Aeronautic fanfiction, right?
07:27:10 <Bike> Well, you'll love being fucked by one then.
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08:10:34 <mroman> @ask nooodl Why didn't you put langtons ant on rosettacode?
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08:53:49 <Haz> suck it, nerds
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09:02:39 <shachaf> monqy: Haz sure showed you huh
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09:30:24 <Sgeo> Courtesy of #lua
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14:26:42 <elliott> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Undefined_behavior&diff=next&oldid=35561 is incorrect, no?
14:27:32 <coppro> but the comment beforehand is also wrong
14:27:39 <coppro> it is un*specified*, not un*defined*
14:28:20 <coppro> the original example was UB
14:28:38 <elliott> well i nominate you to fix the article
14:30:48 <elliott> thank you for your services to america
14:31:14 <elliott> coppro: shouldn't one of those comments be "unspecified" or such
14:31:21 <elliott> or do I know even less about C than I thought
14:31:25 <coppro> I'm not fixing discussion posts
14:31:43 <coppro> that's like trying to fix people who are wrong on the internet
14:31:53 <elliott> the comments in the article
14:32:04 <coppro> it is undefined in both cases
14:32:44 <coppro> I believe there is actually at least one compiler where b = b++ managed to add 2
14:36:58 <coppro> I don't want to go to class :(
14:37:36 <coppro> actually, there are a large number of things I need to do today, and I want to do none of them
14:51:45 <boily> you have to go by small steps, piece by piece. attack the problem from the beginning.
14:51:45 <lambdabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:52:27 <elliott> and cry and flail around wildly and then get nothing done
14:52:28 <boily> by which I mean: don't do the first task, then don't do the second after it.
14:52:41 <elliott> an innovative alternate approach
14:52:59 <elliott> what if you have to be doing the third task while not doing the second task
14:53:41 <boily> or worse: what if you're stuck in a livelock not doing multiple tasks at the same time?
14:54:00 <elliott> we need a non-scheduler to schedule not doing things.
14:54:30 <boily> I guess I'll begin to procrastinate on that starting tomorrow.
14:55:29 <boily> @tell oerjan I fail to see how infinite recursion breaks total ordering. but then, IANAM. (I am not a mathematician)
14:56:16 <elliott> neither is oerjan, he just plays one on IRC.
14:57:32 <boily> OTOH, I *should* be able to understand this. I remember having painful memories of math classes in university.
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16:02:33 <coppro> total ordering of what?
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16:45:48 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: my face is well-ordered!
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19:25:10 <HackEgo> AnotherTest: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:25:11 <AnotherTest> mroman_: I continuously seem to fail installing the packages required to build the burlesque interpreter.
19:25:31 <AnotherTest> Thanks for the welcome, now I have the right to
19:26:05 <HackEgo> DoEsThIsWoRk: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
19:26:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
19:28:41 <HackEgo> DOESTHISWORK: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
19:29:31 <AnotherTest> Hm. I'm not sure if you can do anything else
19:29:43 <doesthiswork> it's missing the one where random letters are repeated, it's the style of the times
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19:41:12 <AnotherTest> !blsq "5+2*5" "+";;{"-";;{"*";;{"/";;{rd}m[}m[}m[}m[}m[{{{ {.*} r[ } m[{.*} r[} m[{.-} r[} m[{.+} r[
19:41:13 <blsqbot> {{{{5.0}}} {{{2.0} {5.0}}}}
19:41:35 <AnotherTest> !blsq {{{{5.0}}} {{{2.0} {5.0}}}} {{{ {.*} r[ } m[{.*} r[} m[{.-} r[} m[{.+} r[
19:41:49 <AnotherTest> well that's weird, I really need a decent interpreter though
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20:34:06 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Add a Return constructor. Make m >>= f pass () to f if m is anything other than Return. <-- that's basically how you make a free monad. although you need to disassemble m when it contains >>= too.
20:34:06 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:34:11 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 38m 42s ago: I fail to see how infinite recursion breaks total ordering. but then, IANAM. (I am not a mathematician)
20:35:30 <oerjan> @tell boily a total ordering requires always returning a comparison result (LT, EQ or GT.) you cannot do that if you infinitely recurse, can you.
20:36:33 <FreeFull> bottom is a perfectly valid comparison result
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20:36:44 <oerjan> FreeFull: not in a total order.
20:37:27 <boily> bottom is kinda nasty.
20:37:27 <lambdabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:37:42 <oerjan> @tell boily note i don't mean that the _values_ are infinite structures, but that _comparing_ them is an non-halting operation because of infinite recursion. although if your EQ is perfect structural identity you cannot really avoid the latter with the former.
20:38:05 <Taneb> Trivia: I never actually fixed the Bootleg Chinese Graphics Card problem
20:38:37 <kmc> is that some kind of complexity theoretic problem or philosophical thought-experiment
20:38:54 <oerjan> kmc: if it isn't, it needs to be
20:39:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
20:39:35 <oerjan> Taneb: if we can make spam messages into esolang names, then we can make the Bootleg Chinese Graphics Card problem
20:39:53 <Taneb> It sounds graph theory ish
20:39:53 <oerjan> into a theoretical thought experiment
20:39:55 <FreeFull> I like how Ordering has an Ord instance
20:40:29 <oerjan> FreeFull: istr there's some nice application of that
20:40:53 <Taneb> It's also a monoid
20:41:28 <oerjan> hm maybe the monoid was involved
20:41:40 <Taneb> It's not a group, though
20:41:57 <oerjan> > mconcat $ zipWith compare [0..] [0, 2..]
20:42:29 <oerjan> pretty sure that's the same as compare on lists
20:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> whoah whoah whoah, zzo apparently spent time on something awful
20:45:09 <oerjan> hm i think you can zipWith Traverse instances, although you need to choose one of the elements to give the final structure
20:45:26 <oerjan> *one of the zipped values
20:45:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: horrible, what did he do
20:46:03 <oerjan> or is that something awful the webcomic
20:46:48 <oerjan> oh it's not a webcomic
20:46:57 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, sounds awful
20:46:58 <oerjan> oh that's something positive
20:47:27 <FreeFull> > Data.Foldable.foldl (\x acc -> pure x) :: (Foldable f, Applicative f) => f a -> f a
20:47:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `a' with `t0 b0 -> a'
20:47:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i've heard of both, i just somehow confused the names
20:47:49 <FreeFull> > Data.Foldable.foldl (\x acc -> pure x) :: (Foldable f, Applicative f) => f a -> f a -> f a
20:47:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `a' with `f a'
20:47:52 <lambdabot> `a' is a rigid type variable bound by...
20:48:31 <oerjan> hm i think you might even be able to zip a Traversable with a Foldable.
20:48:58 <oerjan> well, Foldable has toList, so that's pretty obvious
20:50:56 <HackEgo> 2013-02-24 20:51:27: <Ngevd> `list
20:51:05 <FreeFull> Does Foldable have fromList too?
20:51:13 <HackEgo> 2013-02-28 20:51:05: <boily> `seen boily
20:51:15 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen atriq ever
20:51:33 <Taneb> `seen edwardk ever
20:51:47 <HackEgo> 2012-07-24 16:03:20: <edwardk> and we also don't have coexponentials
20:52:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:52:54 <FreeFull> Is there any typeclass for datatypes that have empty elements?
20:53:43 <oerjan> :t let zippy g ts fs = flip evalState (toList fs) . flip traverse ts $ \x -> do (y:ys) <- get; put ys; return $ g x y in zippy
20:53:45 <lambdabot> `Data.Foldable.toList' (imported from Data.Foldable),
20:53:49 <kmc> FreeFull: what's an "empty element"?
20:53:55 <oerjan> :t let zippy g ts fs = flip evalState (Data.Foldable.toList fs) . flip traverse ts $ \x -> do (y:ys) <- get; put ys; return $ g x y in zippy
20:53:57 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Traversable t1) => (a1 -> a -> b) -> t1 a1 -> t a -> t1 b
20:54:40 <Taneb> `seen Phantom____Hoover
20:54:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:54:48 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen Phantom____Hoover ever
20:54:51 <Taneb> `seen Phantom____Hoover ever
20:55:10 <FreeFull> :t Data.Foldable.foldl (\x acc -> x) mempty :: (Foldable f, Applicative f, Monoid f) => f a -> f a
20:55:12 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to `f'
20:55:13 <lambdabot> (Foldable f, Applicative f, Monoid f) => f a -> f a
20:56:39 <FreeFull> :t Data.Foldable.foldl (\x acc -> pure x) mempty
20:56:41 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = f0 a0
20:56:41 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `pure', namely `x'
20:57:05 <Taneb> :t Data.Foldable.foldr mappend mempty
20:57:06 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid b) => t b -> b
20:57:27 <FreeFull> :t pure . Data.Foldable.foldl mappend mempty
20:57:29 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Foldable t, Monoid b) => t b -> f b
20:57:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:57:48 <oerjan> :t Data.Foldable.mconcat
20:57:50 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.Foldable.mconcat'
20:57:51 <lambdabot> `Data.Foldable.concat' (imported from Data.Foldable),
20:57:55 <oerjan> :t Data.Foldable.concat
20:57:56 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:59:54 <FreeFull> I thought "Ooh, lists are monoids" but then it turned out to be a stupid idea
21:00:02 -!- heroux has joined.
21:00:43 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
21:00:50 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
21:03:16 <Taneb> :t \f -> flip $ appEndo . foldMap (Endo . f)
21:03:17 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> c -> c) -> c -> t a -> c
21:03:45 <Taneb> :t Data.Foldable.foldr
21:03:46 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
21:05:02 <lambdabot> Ord k => k -> a -> M.Map k a -> M.Map k a
21:05:12 <lambdabot> Ord k => k -> a -> M.Map k a -> M.Map k a
21:05:42 <Taneb> :t (\f -> flip $ appEndo . foldMap (Endo . f), \f -> Data.Foldable.foldr (mappend . f) mempty)
21:05:43 <lambdabot> (Foldable t1, Foldable t, Monoid b) => ((a -> c -> c) -> c -> t a -> c, (a1 -> b) -> t1 a1 -> b)
21:05:59 <Taneb> foldr in terms of foldMap, foldMap in terms of foldr
21:06:00 <oerjan> i recall when only M worked. i suppose having the fully qualified is an improvement, although it should have both really
21:06:41 <Taneb> :t forever (return ())
21:06:55 <oerjan> Taneb: yep, those are default methods, no?
21:07:20 <Taneb> Those are the default methods as written by me who's just had a beer
21:07:20 <elliott> oerjan: erm I think Foo.Bar.baz should *always* work if you have it imported
21:08:07 <oerjan> elliott: oh even if you import it otherwise? anyway my thought is that there should be a more principled choice of abbreviations, like have the initialism always working
21:08:31 <oerjan> admittedly this _can_ cause conflicts
21:08:47 <oerjan> (do Data.Monoid and Data.Map have any conflicting names?)
21:09:20 <Taneb> (I don't think so)
21:09:31 <Snowyowl> (sorry, just checking whether I'd timed out or not)
21:10:07 <fungot> Taneb: where was i truncated?
21:10:21 <Taneb> (that's... actually appropriate)
21:10:52 <Taneb> metasepia is very enthusiastic
21:10:56 <ais523> elliott: in OCaml, Foo.Bar.baz works even if you don't have it imported
21:11:02 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for interpreters!
21:11:03 <ais523> the import is only neded to be able to use it unqualified
21:11:06 <Snowyowl> you're all just happy I've found a legitimate use for !ping
21:11:12 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
21:11:15 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
21:11:22 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
21:11:32 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanetemp sf
21:11:47 <oerjan> !addinterp ping unlambda ````.p.o.n.gi
21:11:48 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for ping!
21:12:29 <EgoBot> haskell import Data.Char; main = interact (map toLower)
21:12:31 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=bastille
21:12:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: kernel update, restarting).
21:12:54 <Taneb> !monqy THis is pretty cool I guess
21:13:08 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX26454.hs: epollWait: invalid argument (Bad file descriptor) \ runghcXXXX26454.hs: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (Invalid argument) \ runghcXXXX26454.hs: ioManagerDie: write: Bad file descriptor
21:15:05 <oerjan> !haskell main = print "Hi!"
21:15:23 <oerjan> !monqy What is happening here
21:15:31 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX27859.hs: epollWait: invalid argument (Bad file descriptor) \ runghcXXXX27859.hs: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (Invalid argument) \ runghcXXXX27859.hs: ioManagerDie: write: Bad file descriptor
21:15:33 <Taneb> !haskell print "Hi!"; main = print "Hi!"
21:15:36 <monqy> probaly has to do with the 'input' interact wants
21:15:40 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX27964.hs:1:1: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level
21:16:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `just: not found
21:16:28 <oerjan> !addinterp test haskell print "Hi!"
21:16:28 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for test!
21:16:35 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
21:17:13 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
21:17:22 <EgoBot> test is not a user interpreter.
21:17:27 <oerjan> !addinterp test haskell print "Hi!"
21:17:28 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for test!
21:17:32 <monqy> !addinterp qqq haskell getLine >>= putStrLn
21:17:33 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq installed.
21:17:50 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq deleted.
21:17:57 <monqy> !addinterp qqq haskell interact id
21:17:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq installed.
21:18:19 <EgoBot> haskell import Data.Char; main = interact (map toLower)
21:18:39 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX31619.hs: epollWait: invalid argument (Bad file descriptor) \ runghcXXXX31619.hs: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (Invalid argument) \ runghcXXXX31619.hs: ioManagerDie: write: Bad file descriptor
21:18:45 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy deleted.
21:18:47 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq deleted.
21:18:55 <olsner> oh noes, you deleted monqy
21:18:58 <Taneb> !addinterp tanebdk haskell module Main where import Data.Char; main = interact (map toLower)
21:18:58 <EgoBot> Interpreter tanebdk installed.
21:19:09 <oerjan> !addinterp monqy haskell import Data.Char; main = interact (map toLower)
21:19:09 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy installed.
21:19:10 <monqy> !addinterp qqq haskell import Data.Char; main = putStrLn "hi"
21:19:11 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq installed.
21:19:12 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX32222.hs: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (Invalid argument) \ runghcXXXX32222.hs: epollWait: invalid argument (Bad file descriptor) \ runghcXXXX32222.hs: ioManagerDie: write: Bad file descriptor
21:19:21 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX32409.hs: epollWait: invalid argument (Bad file descriptor) \ runghcXXXX32409.hs: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (Invalid argument) \ runghcXXXX32409.hs: ioManagerDie: write: Bad file descriptor
21:19:35 <Taneb> !delinterp tanebdk
21:19:35 <EgoBot> Interpreter tanebdk deleted.
21:19:44 <monqy> maybe i have to add monqy and then it will work......................
21:19:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq deleted.
21:20:05 <oerjan> hm i wonder if it has something to do with how !haskell tries both ghci and module form
21:20:11 <oerjan> maybe it breaks on the first one
21:20:26 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy deleted.
21:21:05 <oerjan> !addinterp monqy haskell import Data.Char; interact (map toLower)
21:21:06 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy installed.
21:21:16 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX888.hs:1:19: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level
21:21:30 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy deleted.
21:21:34 <Taneb> Maybe it has an old GHCi
21:21:46 <monqy> !addinterp qqq haskell import Data.Char; main = interact id
21:21:46 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq installed.
21:21:56 <Taneb> !addinterp tanebdk haskell :m + Data.Char; interact id
21:21:56 <EgoBot> Interpreter tanebdk installed.
21:21:56 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX1286.hs: epollWait: invalid argument (Bad file descriptor) \ runghcXXXX1286.hs: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (Invalid argument) \ runghcXXXX1286.hs: ioManagerDie: write: Bad file descriptor
21:22:09 <EgoBot> syntax: :module [+/-] [*]M1 ... [*]Mn \ \ /tmp/runghcXXXX1594.hs:1:1: parse error on input `:'
21:22:29 <oerjan> ; not accepted in ghci
21:22:34 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
21:22:34 <Taneb> !delinterp tanebdk
21:22:34 <EgoBot> Interpreter tanebdk deleted.
21:22:38 <Taneb> !addinterp tanebdk haskell :m + Data.Char\n interact id
21:22:38 <EgoBot> Interpreter tanebdk installed.
21:22:44 <Taneb> !tanebdk long shot
21:22:51 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq deleted.
21:22:52 <EgoBot> syntax: :module [+/-] [*]M1 ... [*]Mn \ \ /tmp/runghcXXXX2496.hs:1:1: parse error on input `:'
21:23:00 <Taneb> !delinterp tanebdk
21:23:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter tanebdk deleted.
21:23:21 <monqy> !addinterp qqq haskell import Data.Char; main = print (toLower 'B')
21:23:22 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq installed.
21:23:59 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq deleted.
21:24:29 <oerjan> !addinterp monqy haskell import Data.Char; main = putStr . map toLower =<< getContents
21:24:30 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy installed.
21:24:41 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX5034.hs: epollWait: invalid argument (Bad file descriptor) \ runghcXXXX5034.hs: <stdin>: hGetContents: invalid argument (Invalid argument) \ runghcXXXX5034.hs: ioManagerDie: write: Bad file descriptor
21:24:56 <oerjan> it's getContents that breaks
21:25:08 <Bike> this is some deep stuff
21:26:03 <oerjan> presumably stdin is something weird?
21:26:24 <monqy> it worked nicely in 'ghci mode'
21:27:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:27:12 <monqy> !addinterp qqq haskell getContents >>= putStr
21:27:13 <EgoBot> Interpreter qqq installed.
21:28:39 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
21:28:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy deleted.
21:30:37 <lambdabot> System.IO getContents :: IO String
21:30:41 <oerjan> !addinterp monqy haskell import Data.Char; main = putStr . map toLower =<< getLine
21:30:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy installed.
21:30:54 <EgoBot> runghcXXXX7396.hs: <stdin>: hGetLine: invalid argument (Invalid argument)
21:31:06 <oerjan> ok it's _not_ just getContents
21:31:41 <oerjan> it may seem that !haskell with module format simply doesn't have a working stdin
21:31:46 <elliott> monqy is hard..... not like monoids!!!!!!!!
21:31:50 <oerjan> @tell Gregor it may seem that !haskell with module format simply doesn't have a working stdin
21:31:59 <elliott> (reference for the viewers at home: monoids are well-established to be so easy)
21:32:07 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
21:32:18 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
21:32:21 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy deleted.
21:32:42 <boily> @tell itidus21 ancient chinese mystery?
21:32:57 <elliott> you have to use @ask not @tell
21:33:40 <oerjan> !addinterp monqy haskell http://oerjan.nvg.org/monqy
21:33:43 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy installed.
21:33:55 <EgoBot> syntax: :module [+/-] [*]M1 ... [*]Mn \ \ /tmp/runghcXXXX8717.hs:1:1: parse error on input `:'
21:34:11 <Bike> are you spending all this time making a thing that lowercases what you give it
21:34:39 <Bike> i refuse to believe this is as difficult as you're making it look
21:34:44 <monqy> it's easy actually
21:34:49 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy deleted.
21:34:49 <monqy> ive been hiding the secret this whole time
21:34:52 <oerjan> !addinterp monqy haskell http://oerjan.nvg.org/monqy
21:34:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy installed.
21:35:07 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX9861.hs:1:3: parse error on input `:'
21:35:20 <monqy> at least, i think i have the secret??????
21:35:27 <Bike> what's the secret monqy
21:35:30 <Bike> deliver us from this peril
21:35:46 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy deleted.
21:36:41 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
21:37:03 <oerjan> hm that's inconclusive
21:37:19 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
21:37:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 qqq redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanetemp sfed
21:37:43 <EgoBot> bf >,[>,]<++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
21:37:54 <oerjan> that _definitely_ takes stdin
21:38:38 <monqy> well you can get haskell to take stdin too
21:38:42 <oerjan> Bike: it would be easy if !haskell wasn't broken.
21:38:51 <oerjan> monqy: um what do you think we were doing
21:38:57 <monqy> oerjan: the wrong thing!!
21:38:58 <oerjan> there's an actual bug in !haskell
21:39:06 <monqy> but there's a workaround
21:39:26 <oerjan> note that not only getContents, but even getLine broke
21:40:09 <monqy> yeah my workaround works
21:40:38 <oerjan> are you working around needing import Data.Char
21:40:56 <monqy> hint: the workaround is VERY STUPID
21:41:10 <oerjan> writing toLower yourself?
21:41:20 <oerjan> ok that was my idea :P
21:41:44 <oerjan> oh i just checked something in winghci
21:41:46 <monqy> it has to do with a ghci peculiarity
21:41:53 <Bike> !chaos control
21:42:00 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX16290.hs:1:26: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
21:42:32 <oerjan> !addinterp monqy haskell interact (map Data.Char.toLower)
21:42:33 <EgoBot> Interpreter monqy installed.
21:42:42 <oerjan> !monqy DID YOU MEAN THIS?
21:43:24 <olsner> what does that have to do with monqy?
21:43:36 <oerjan> have you ever seen monqy use capitals
21:44:05 <olsner> I haven't seen monqy at all
21:45:21 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
21:47:26 <HackEgo> 2012-04-18.txt:01:21:39: <monqy> hi Sgeo
21:47:57 <oerjan> `log ^..:..:..: <monqy>
21:48:13 <HackEgo> 2012-04-22.txt:04:56:20: <monqy> maybe just not care about plants
21:48:49 <Bike> programming is hard.
21:49:10 <elliott> monqy expresses his anti-environmentalist believfs
21:49:16 <oerjan> but it's obviously tab completed so it may not count
21:49:18 <oerjan> `log ^..:..:..: <monqy> .*(?-i[A-Z])
21:49:21 <HackEgo> grep: unrecognized character after (? or (?-
21:49:38 <Bike> or maybe.... maybe sed is the hard one...........
21:49:42 <oerjan> no idea if that should even work.
21:50:09 <oerjan> `log ^..:..:..: <monqy> .*[A-Z]
21:50:20 <HackEgo> 2012-06-08.txt:19:13:05: <monqy> hell is a stairdance party and ive been there multiple times in light
21:50:20 <Bike> `pastlog monqy
21:50:30 <HackEgo> 2011-09-24.txt:03:07:29: <monqy> hi
21:50:49 <oerjan> i think monqy doesn't like us stalking him from the future
21:50:50 <monqy> is log case-insensitive? Beautiful.
21:51:03 <monqy> maybe don't use it
21:51:35 <oerjan> and i have no idea if there's a way to work around it (without rewriting the script)
21:52:01 <monqy> `run cat `which log`
21:52:03 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi
21:52:09 <oerjan> the (?-i modifier in perlre looked promising, but obviously grep -P doesn't support it
21:52:49 <monqy> `run grep -P -- "^..:..:..: <monqy> .*[A-Z]" /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1
21:52:57 <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2011-08-01.txt:20:50:24: <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: 05:37:27: <itidus20> elliott_: i did an edit of it: http://oi51.tinypic.com/34h0z.jpg
21:53:13 <elliott> time for The Most Complicated Regular Expression Ever
21:53:14 <oerjan> that one doesn't count either
21:53:31 <Bike> elliott: i don't think the email regex would even fit in irc :(
21:53:33 <monqy> `run cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; grep -P -- "^..:..:..: <monqy> .*[A-Z]" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1
21:53:41 <HackEgo> 2011-08-27.txt:08:03:39: <monqy> I've had all the parser-handwriting experience I feel I need
21:54:07 <elliott> I doesn't really count does it
21:54:07 <monqy> elliott: yes it's Good
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21:54:20 <Bike> imo, monqy should run a command looking for A-Z that then returns itself from th elogs.
21:54:22 <monqy> well i use 'i' a lot don't i
21:54:42 <monqy> `run cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; grep -P -- "^..:..:..: <monqy> .*[A-Z]" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1
21:54:52 <monqy> just give it enough tries and maybe it'll work???
21:54:55 <HackEgo> 2011-06-21.txt:06:20:12: <monqy> who would do thAT
21:55:05 <monqy> good question monqy
21:55:17 <monqy> i often wonder that myself
21:56:35 <monqy> `run cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; grep -P -- "^..:..:..: <monqy> .*[A-Z]" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1
21:56:44 <HackEgo> 2011-08-16.txt:00:22:02: <monqy> evincar: I also noticed that in your example, there's a bit of weirdness
21:56:51 <Bike> "Mail::RFC822::Address is a Perl module to validate email addresses according to the RFC 822 grammar. It provides the same functionality as RFC::RFC822::Address, but uses Perl regular expressions rather that the Parse::RecDescent parser. This means that the module is much faster to load as it does not need to compile the grammar on startup." wow i forgot that was the justification
21:58:51 <elliott> it only handles like 8-deep nested comments iirc
22:00:06 <Snowyowl> oh god, parsing strict emails with a regex
22:00:46 <Snowyowl> I'm so glad that's not my problem.
22:01:15 <oerjan> > foldr id "Shocking!" . repeat $ \s -> '(':s++")"
22:01:24 <lambdabot> "((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
22:02:00 <boily> ~eval foldr id "Shocking!" . repeat $ \s -> '(':s++")"
22:02:00 <Bike> Snowyowl: For Speed
22:02:01 <metasepia> Error (1): Ambiguous occurrence `foldr'
22:02:01 <metasepia> It could refer to either `GHC.Base.foldr',
22:02:01 <metasepia> imported from `Data.List' at Imports.hs:16:1-16
22:02:01 <metasepia> (and originally defined in `base:GHC.Base')
22:02:01 <metasepia> imported from `Data.Foldable' at Imports.hs:13:1-20
22:02:07 <oerjan> elliott: clearly it use that perl feature to do recursion, whatever that was
22:02:11 <kmc> hm another acme module idea: something which can strip an infinite number of spaces from the beginning of a string
22:02:16 <kmc> using vacuum magic of course
22:02:32 <kmc> vacuum is a library for GHC heap introspection
22:03:30 <oerjan> infinite space is vacuum magic, check
22:03:49 <boily> ~eval foldr id "Shocking!" . repeat $ \s -> '(':s++")"
22:03:49 <metasepia> Error (1): Ambiguous occurrence `foldr'
22:03:49 <metasepia> It could refer to either `Data.Foldable.foldr',
22:03:49 <metasepia> imported from `Data.Foldable' at Imports.hs:13:1-20
22:03:49 <metasepia> imported from `Data.List' at Imports.hs:16:1-16
22:03:50 <metasepia> (and originally defined in `base:GHC.Base')
22:04:02 <boily> aaaaah come on. I hid it!
22:04:23 <kmc> oerjan: haha
22:04:28 <kmc> with any luck i will collapse the false vacuum
22:05:10 <kmc> false vacuum collapse?
22:05:37 <Snowyowl> ais523: I ran into Formula after clicking the Random Page button. It's now driving me insane. I've almost cracked Hello, World.
22:05:45 <Bike> Collapse the False Vacuum
22:06:00 <ais523> I'm really curious as to whether that's TC or not
22:06:41 <Bike> oh that's a nasty language
22:06:44 <Snowyowl> Can't help you there. All I've figured out so far is that you can write a finite state machine in it.
22:07:03 <Snowyowl> which is enough for cat and hello, so it'll do for now
22:07:08 <olsner> "With three variables Formula can reasonably simply simulate a Minsky machine, and so is Turing complete."?
22:09:15 <elliott> olsner: that's presumably 3D
22:09:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:10:14 <ais523> yeah, it's obviously TC in 3D
22:10:19 <ais523> and obviously TI in 1D
22:10:29 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:11:20 <Bike> turing incomplete
22:11:36 <Bike> (woe be to the turing incomplete machine)
22:16:20 <ais523> yeah, turing incomplete
22:17:07 <Bike> maybe "subrecursive" would sound cooler
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22:27:01 <oerjan> ais523: "If the output is in the range [-½,½], " shouldn't that be (-½,½) since the end values are already taken by the first rule?
22:27:20 <ais523> I wasn't completely up on notation when I wrote that
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22:28:54 <Bike> so, does this have anything to do with exponential diophantines or should i read the article again while more awake
22:30:36 <oerjan> Bike: i doubt you need anything that heavy to settle this
22:31:17 <oerjan> it's more of a question of how to move around with only two variables that can be incremented/decremented
22:31:53 <oerjan> i am assuming that the formulas are powerful enough that you can express any reasonably simple function of the variables
22:33:17 <oerjan> hm right two variables is precisely when you have the wire-crossing problem
22:33:48 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, do you know of any graph colouring-related turing equivalent thingies
22:34:43 <oerjan> but basically, if there are any NP-complete-problem related ones, you can probably translate
22:35:12 <oerjan> since 3-coloring is NP-complete
22:35:25 <oerjan> (even with planar graphs)
22:39:07 <Snowyowl> okay, bottom of the page: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Snowyowl/Hello,_world!_in_Formula
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22:39:44 <oerjan> hm is it decidable whether an elementary function is equal to a given rational number? if so Formula should be possible to implement in principle
22:40:49 <oerjan> (it's not known whether e+pi is rational, say, but it might still be decidable whether it's equal to a particular one)
22:41:12 <Snowyowl> Dunno. With only addition, multiplication, and division, you can use fraction arithmetic.
22:41:29 <ais523> oerjan: well if it /isn't/ rational, then it's definitely decidable that for each rational, it's not equal to that rational
22:41:31 <Snowyowl> trigonometric functions muddy the waters a bit.
22:41:31 <oerjan> yes, it's the exponential stuff that complicates things :P
22:41:45 <oerjan> ais523: well yeah but that doesn't help
22:42:04 <Snowyowl> yeah, it doesn't terminate if it turns out they are equal
22:42:15 <oerjan> we need to be able to confirm the n + 1/2 cases
22:42:17 <ais523> oerjan: it allows you to write an implementation that may work correctly, you just can't prove it works correctly
22:42:21 <Bike> i thought you only need arithmetic and abs to make it uncomputable
22:42:36 <Bike> to make equalling a constant uncomputable, i mean
22:43:03 <ais523> like, the question would be "with Formula's operations, is there any way to produce a rational that isn't provably rational?"
22:43:16 <oerjan> Bike: not without quantification...
22:43:40 <oerjan> Bike: with only arithmetic and abs you can only get rational numbers
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22:44:37 <Bike> oh it's rationals, pi, log(2), a variable, arithmetic, composition, abs, and trigonometry.
22:44:40 <oerjan> ais523: hm i guess that's equivalent
22:45:09 <ais523> oerjan: if there isn't, an implementation that worked via comparing decimal expansions would work
22:45:17 <oerjan> Bike: "a variable"? what's that used for?
22:45:26 <ais523> just without a proof of that statement, we wouldn't know it worked
22:45:29 <Bike> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson's_theorem
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22:45:47 <oerjan> Bike: "a variable" is the only thing that isn't included in Formula here, so...
22:47:52 <oerjan> elliott: i dunno, have you started drinking yet?
22:48:04 <elliott> oerjan: no but I am sure this channel will drive me to it sooner or later
22:48:35 <oerjan> elliott: we'll just get you to skip straight to heroin for convenience
22:48:38 <Bike> oh zeilberger's an ultrafinitist
22:49:15 <Bike> "Guess what? Programming is even more fun than proving, and, more importantly it gives as much, if not more, insight and understanding" what a nerd
22:49:22 -!- yours_truly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:49:40 <ais523> Bike: proving and programming feel quite similar to me
22:49:48 <Bike> whatever could have given you that idea ais
22:49:58 <Bike> elliott: what kind of phantasm we talkin' here?
22:50:30 <Bike> i mean does he write psychotic blog posts or something
22:51:01 <elliott> http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/OPINIONS.html
22:52:01 <Bike> why is he capitalizing everything
22:52:05 <elliott> i especially like http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarim/mamarimPDF/real.pdf
22:52:12 <elliott> and i'm not being as sarcastic as i once would be saying such a thing
22:52:36 <Bike> « In particular, Turing thesis's (recently edited and republished by Andrew Appel in this attractive book (with an insightful introduction by him)), is utter nonsense, talking about "oracles", that lead to lots of beautiful, but fictional and irrelevant work by logicians and theoretical computer scientists.»
22:52:53 <Bike> Also the "halting problem" is meaningless, as stated (so it is not surprising that it is "undecidable"). The question "does the program halt" is the same as "does there exist an integer N such that the program halts in less than N steps?", and it is tacitly assumed that N can be anything, i.e. taken over the "infinite" set of positive integers.
22:53:37 <Bike> alright elliott am i going to regret reading this pdf
22:53:44 <Bike> holy shit yes i am
22:54:24 <Bike> yes but this is too close
22:54:47 <elliott> anyone who has seen http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=103 and doesn't like ultrafinitism at least a little is lame
22:55:01 <Bike> yeah ok that guy is a pretty good argument.
22:55:33 <Bike> digital messiah
22:56:00 <FreeFull> Turing was one of the most important people in the history of computer science
22:56:14 <Phantom__Hoover> HAHAHAHA FINALLY MY HERALDRY-BASED ESOLANG CAN BE A REALITY
22:56:39 * Phantom__Hoover realises ~10 seconds too late that NP-complete is not the same as turing-equivalent
22:56:40 <Bike> oh god we're doomed
22:56:45 <Bike> FreeFull: who are you talking to
22:57:31 <kmc> elliott: yes
22:57:32 <Bike> elliott this has more italics than words i think
22:57:55 <elliott> kmc: i have no idea what you are responding to but i agree
22:58:00 <Bike> Instead the real REAL 'line' is neither real, nor a line.
22:58:01 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: i say you make that heraldry-based esolang anyhow
22:58:03 <kmc> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=103
22:58:11 <kmc> what about the long line
22:58:43 <Bike> oh christ dude you could at least use delta-epsilon formulation of derivatives couldn't you
22:58:56 <elliott> does that paper use non-standard analysis
22:59:04 <elliott> because it is a basic universal fact that non-standard analysis is great
22:59:11 <Bike> Unfortunately no.
22:59:57 <Bike> Instead he says that the h in the just-learning-derivatives formula is "the Fundamental mesh size, a Mathematical Universal constant, that unlike Planck's constant we will never know, but it is very tiny."
23:00:21 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: i am so sorry
23:00:24 <Bike> integration is a riemann sum
23:00:32 <Bike> elliott i'm really regretting this help
23:00:44 <Bike> REAL (i.e. discrete) analysis is conceptually simpler than traditional ‘real’ (continuous) analysis,
23:00:47 <Bike> and of course is much truer. But it is, on the whole, technically more difficult. Hence ‘Naked Brain’
23:00:50 <Bike> humans had no choice but to pursue the latter kind.
23:01:56 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: PKD is pretty funny yes
23:02:09 <elliott> pretty sure stanis£aw £em unambiguously exists
23:02:14 <elliott> i got £ because i did compose l -
23:02:17 <Bike> nah, PKD thought he was a soviet committee.
23:02:19 <elliott> i assumed it would help me it didnt
23:02:37 <Bike> "[...]I am sure that the full arsenal of continuous complex analysis can be discretized, but the details might be too complicated for humans.
23:02:45 <Bike> like, ultrafinitism is one thing, this is just embarassing
23:02:59 <Bike> people do that :(
23:04:15 <Bike> elliott: does this guy even know about rational geometry or is he going to keep ranting about nonsense for the whole paper
23:05:23 <Bike> Ugh, I actually /am/ kind of jealous, because I know this guy could Maple circles around me.
23:05:56 <Bike> elliott has infected me. Again.
23:06:37 <Bike> «Andrew Wiles alleged 'proof' of FLT»
23:08:47 <elliott> he's a bit confusing & also the best
23:09:32 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:09:54 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: menu as compose then?
23:10:26 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
23:11:51 <Bike> This is almost as bad as reading Kahan rant about playstations...
23:12:59 <Phantom__Hoover> when i am old and respected and elliott is a fringe hyperfinitist nutcase i guess i can joke about him at parties
23:13:08 <Fiora> Bike: https://www.securelist.com/en/blog/208194129/ this is an interesting thig
23:13:29 <Fiora> it's a targeted backdoor pdf-exploit-based malware that uses twitter as a dead drop for communication
23:13:46 <Fiora> with google search as a backup
23:14:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: excuse me i will be professor of fuck Phantom__Hoover constructive type theory is the best thing in the universe at the university of stupid professorship names
23:14:06 <Bike> what, what happened to using hashname irc channels like the good old days ;_;
23:14:10 <Fiora> so the malware never directly connects with the control server
23:14:22 <Bike> elliott: i want to found this university
23:14:32 <elliott> Bike: you can be professor of founding this university
23:14:47 <Bike> «ancient Italian comments in the shellcode copied from Dante Aligheri’s “Divine Comedy”»
23:14:48 <elliott> do you have a phd in founding universities
23:15:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: yes but only on thursdays
23:15:12 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=103 is important!!
23:15:35 <Bike> elliott: No but I have a lack of Ph.D. in not having necessary prerequisites to founding universities.
23:15:39 <elliott> ps i am actually moderately confident that the natural numbers exist
23:15:42 -!- nooga has joined.
23:15:51 <elliott> but only the kind that starts from 0
23:16:09 <Bike> Zeilberger says that 0 shouldn't be taught though.
23:16:18 <Bike> Are you disagreeing with a guy with a name as great as "Zeilberger"?
23:17:17 <Bike> right he's a platonist too
23:17:58 <Bike> Fiora: Wow, the bait looks really good.
23:18:59 <Fiora> Yeah, the really targeted attacks like this, stuxnet, etc are interesting, just like
23:19:01 <Bike> Fiora: Also, I'm getting an https failure here :|
23:19:05 <Fiora> how well they know their targets, well-crafted bait and stuff
23:19:06 * oerjan gives up on reading the logs on accounting of starting to get a headache
23:19:48 <Bike> "These URLs provide access to the C2s, which then provide potential commands and encrypted transfers of additional backdoors onto the system via GIF files." this sounds like CSI
23:20:05 <elliott> oerjan: can you teach me something
23:20:36 <Fiora> Bike: I know right? XD it sounds like pure technobabble except it's real
23:21:32 <Bike> well, done with pdf, that was totally nuts
23:22:14 <oerjan> elliott: never move to a place where you have housemates. hth.
23:24:27 <oerjan> not that i recall. there was a german one this autumn.
23:24:51 * Bike goes back to a paper that uses "Human Action System" and abbreviates it as "HAS", which is totally not crazy
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23:26:30 <elliott> oerjan: what was your phd about again
23:27:07 <oerjan> Cantor dynamical systems and K-theory and C*-algebras
23:28:35 <Bike> what's a cantor dynamical system
23:28:49 <oerjan> the K-theory got extracted from the last into the first
23:29:04 <oerjan> Bike: it's a dynamical system on a Cantor set, hth
23:29:23 <Bike> that actually does kind of h
23:29:32 <oerjan> there should probably be a "minimal" before dynamical
23:29:58 <elliott> oerjan: wow, I understand four of those words, and only two of them are the same. six if you relax the definition of word.
23:30:11 <Bike> oh it's complete and compact, not as weird as i thought
23:30:35 <elliott> here are the words: dynamical (ok this one might be cheating), system, and
23:30:40 <elliott> and perhaps: theory, algebras
23:30:47 <Bike> don't you know what the cantor set is?
23:31:02 <Bike> it's george "fuck you" cantor's second most famous thing
23:31:05 <oerjan> Bike: it's a compact metrizable zero-dimensional space without isolated points
23:31:16 <Bike> psh, easy then
23:31:54 <Bike> k-theory meanwhile is what, something grothendieck invented probably, must be hard
23:31:56 <oerjan> also the common way of displaying it is that "remove middle thirds of intervals from [0,1], recursively" thing.
23:32:32 <Bike> "A C*-algebra is a complex algebra A of continuous linear operators on a complex Hilbert space with two additional properties: A is a topologically closed set in the norm topology of operators. A is closed under the operation of taking adjoints of operators."
23:32:52 <elliott> i know what cantor set is btw
23:33:00 <Bike> well you should have listed it then
23:33:07 <elliott> 23:27:06 <oerjan> Cantor dynamical systems and K-theory and C*-algebras
23:33:10 <oerjan> Bike: there is no hilbert space, they're just all isomorphic to one which is one a hilbert space
23:33:10 <elliott> the word set is not in this title
23:33:28 <Bike> oerjan: i was quoting wikipedia, i'm nowhere near understanding what a C* algebra is.
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23:34:10 <elliott> looks like oerjan gets to correct the wp article
23:34:40 <Bike> if you're lucky you could get into a flamewar with Zeilberger about how illegitimate topology is!
23:35:20 <Bike> elliott: you should have listed Cantor anyway since you know who he is, and possibly made a humorous joke based on his name.
23:35:21 <elliott> he likes finite categories i think
23:35:32 <oerjan> topologies on finite sets are just partial preorders
23:35:32 <elliott> Bike: I never Cantor algebra I didn't like
23:35:39 <elliott> Bike: I never Cantor dynamical system I didn't like
23:37:09 <oerjan> Bike: K-theory is somewhat similar to homology theory
23:37:51 <Bike> i don't know what that is either oerjan, but it's okay, you don't have to try to explain.
23:38:03 * Bike getting distracted again by reading scholarpedia on minimal dynamic systems
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23:38:19 <oerjan> Bike: well homology is considerably less obscure than K-theory, is all :P
23:38:40 <Phantom__Hoover> homology is like homotopy because most of the letters are the same
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23:39:08 <elliott> oerjan: how many years of effort will it take to understand your thesis
23:39:17 <oerjan> homology is homotopy invariant, so they're not unrelated terms
23:39:36 <elliott> oerjan: does that mean you don't understand it
23:39:38 <Bike> other problems: i think of "homologous" which is a comparative anatomy thing and, hopefully, not related to this at all
23:39:47 <oerjan> elliott: i may have understood it once
23:40:53 <oerjan> Bike: hm i vaguely recall noticing both definitions when looking up "homologi" in a norwegian encyclopedia once long ago
23:41:01 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, are homologous structures of the same homology class thing
23:41:11 <Bike> That's not even a sentence.
23:41:16 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: ...maybe. i don't remember.
23:41:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Channel is publicly logged. You can find the URL in the log..
23:41:54 <Phantom__Hoover> i think probably they're homotopy-equivalent at least so...
23:42:02 <Bike> wow, that's some good message handling, oonbotti.
23:42:15 <oerjan> Bike: once, long ago, when i looked up "homologi" in a norwegian encyclopedia, it had both mathematical and anatomical definitions, afair.
23:42:27 <Bike> oerjan: I meant at phantom hoover.
23:42:36 <Bike> your sentence as adequately sentencistic.