00:00:01 oh no 00:00:58 is there an equivalent to raw_input() that takes an entire file? 00:01:30 `run python -c 'print open("bin/welcome").readlines()' 00:01:32 ​['#!/usr/bin/perl -w\n', 'if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }\n'] 00:01:46 ...i meant entire stdin 00:01:52 oerjan: when I showed your colorize script to a python developer he screamed at me and rewrote it in horrror. Wanna see? 00:02:00 Bike: OKAY 00:02:13 Now that's enthusiasm I want to see! 00:02:13 it's not quite mine, fizzie wrote the original 00:02:28 (share the blame) 00:02:46 `run welcome | python -c 'print open("/dev/stdin").read()' 00:02:51 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 00:03:12 um and read takes all? 00:03:36 Sometimes 00:03:48 `run cat bin/welcome | python -c 'print open("/dev/stdin").read()' 00:03:52 ​#!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; } 00:04:00 -!- Sanky has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- hogeyui has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:02 i guess that works 00:04:06 oops 00:04:19 `run cat bin/welcome | whatever? 00:04:20 http://pastie.org/private/k564m0ahv1xxuqaumcafg 00:04:23 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:04:24 -!- hogeyui has joined. 00:04:27 uses sys.stdin 00:04:31 -!- Sanky has joined. 00:04:33 -!- Sanky has quit (Excess Flood). 00:04:41 I like how the new ircd goes to great lengths to not tell you which server went down. 00:05:19 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:05:30 Bike: that's not equivalent at all 00:06:01 -!- Sanky has joined. 00:06:02 > comparing length "open('/dev/stdin')" "import sys;sys.stdin" 00:06:03 LT 00:06:05 oh no! 00:06:19 linux wins!!! 00:06:46 `lsb_release -a 00:06:48 No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux \ Release:n/a \ Codename:n/a 00:07:33 -!- AgonyLang has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:08:22 `run (echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join(['(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT 00:08:24 bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `(echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join(['(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT' 00:08:55 `run (echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT 00:08:59 chmod: cannot access `CaT': No such file or directory 00:09:10 `chmod a+x bin/CaT 00:09:11 chmod: missing operand after `a+x bin/CaT' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information. 00:09:14 `run chmod a+x bin/CaT 00:09:19 No output. 00:09:28 `run welcome | CaT 00:09:29 -!- atehwa has joined. 00:09:30 WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 00:09:41 `cat bin/WeLcOmE 00:09:43 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())" 00:10:20 `run sed -i 's/pyt.*/CaT/' bin/WeLcOmE 00:10:23 No output. 00:10:34 `WeLcOmE atehwa 00:10:36 AtEhWa: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 00:11:14 `run echo "cantcode: ok what did you need help with?" | CaT 00:11:16 CaNtCoDe: Ok wHaT DiD YoU NeEd hElP WiTh? 00:11:26 great 00:11:50 can you make a version for zalgo? :) 00:12:18 oh hm 00:12:28 i can't even _see_ zalgo. 00:12:42 what was wrong with old WeLcOmE 00:12:52 it's ok 00:12:53 not modular enough 00:12:56 i was just trying if it would parse it 00:12:57 haven't you heard of unix philosophy? 00:13:08 `run sed -i 's/$@/"$@"/' bin/WeLcOmE 00:13:13 No output. 00:13:21 `run relcome | CaT 00:13:22 `cat bin/WeLcOmE 00:13:24 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | CaT 00:13:25 ​wElCoMe tO ThE iNtErNaTiONaL hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LANgUAgE dEsIgn AnD DePlOyMeNt! fOr moRe iNfOrMatIoN, ChEcK OuT OUR wIkI: hTtP://EsolaNGS.OrG/WIkI/MaIn_PaGe. (foR tHe oTHEr kInD OF eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRic oN iRC.DaL.nET.) 00:13:34 See? Beautiful. 00:14:20 it looks like a gas leak in a puddle 00:15:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:15:22 who's that? 00:15:46 cantcode: HackEgo only takes commands starting with ` . some of the other bots respond to their name (hi fungot!) 00:15:46 oerjan: he was now a city, and of the dots perhaps a half inch more. the augmented party now began to advance directly toward the invisible building, and had no idea what the curious image could be. 00:15:49 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:16:32 `run ls bin 00:16:36 ​? \ @ \ WELCOME \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ colorize \ define \ delquote \ elist \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ ka 00:16:39 .habla espanol? 00:17:00 not much spanish here, sorry 00:17:08 `oh 00:17:10 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oh: not found 00:17:34 `run botsnack | colorize | CaT 00:17:37 ​:-D 00:17:45 that's it 00:17:56 oonbotti: you are the only bot i remember who actually parses english, no? 00:17:56 oerjan: Why do you think I am the only bot you remember who actually parses english, no? 00:17:57 Indeed, it is that. 00:18:27 oonbotti: habla espanol? 00:18:27 oerjan: Perhaps the answer lies within yourself? 00:18:38 ¿shouldn't you use ¿ for spanish questions? 00:19:00 anyway, do spaniards really use ¿ on the internet? 00:19:01 oonbotti: ¿habla español? 00:19:01 oerjan: Why do you ask that? 00:19:06 nooga: MAYBE 00:19:08 ¿ 00:19:24 ¿, huh, add this to one of our bots 00:19:31 ¿ looks nice 00:19:40 not usually, in my experience (do they use it) 00:19:59 not that i know any actual spaniards, just spanish-speakers from the other half of the world 00:20:01 What's that? ELIZA? 00:20:04 ¿que es una gasoliniera cerca de aqui? 00:20:07 sure looks like eliza. 00:20:17 zzo38: oonbotti? i think so. 00:20:18 nooga: irc.dal.net 00:20:30 buen 00:21:02 HAR HAR HAR 00:23:37 ¿donde esta la zapateria? 00:24:01 We need a Parry in here. 00:24:25 redio reloj 00:29:00 oonbotti: fungot 00:29:00 Jafet: I see. 00:29:00 Jafet: when i fnord hinted to others about my find, and this was their tragic homecoming. they had, and between each pair of anklets stretched a golden chain that held its fnord to a significance beyond the emotion which it excites and is. for the man who 00:30:36 * hagb4rd nervously jingles his chains 00:31:15 wtf wat 00:31:18 "Yes, the ratio of a perfect circle to its radius should be rational. The fact that it is irrational proves that either a. the circle is not perfect, or that b. the space plane the circle occupies is not perfectly flat and consistent." 00:31:56 * Bike imagines riding a space plane, scratching a circle into the window 00:32:12 sounds like hagb4rd all right 00:32:42 Sgeo: I hear Khinchin's constant is rational. 00:33:07 100% cotton 00:33:17 * hagb4rd unleashed 00:34:17 i can't believe it's still not known whether the euler-mascheroni constant is rational 00:34:58 i can't believe it's not maccheroni 00:35:25 If you pick a random real number it's probably pretty hard to prove its irrationality. 00:38:09 Don't you need the axiom of choice to pick a random real number 00:39:29 psh sets 00:40:59 yes but let's face it, what can you prove about a random real number 00:41:20 "it exists, maybe" 00:41:29 depending on how constructivist you are?? 00:42:02 it's real 00:42:09 Maybe it would be better to restrict it to definable numbers... 00:42:47 the definable numbers are countable and so don't have a uniform probability distribution 00:43:08 well, neither do reals for that matter 00:43:26 conclusion: random real numbers don't exist! 00:43:39 oh nooooo 00:44:20 I meant like, in [0,1] though. 00:47:11 OKAY 00:47:29 then the definable numbers still don't have a uniform one, hth 00:47:37 in fact, one of gods biggest problems might have been designing some unpredictability. otherways it eternatity would be so boring. 00:47:53 :( 00:48:13 it's it possible to do a turing complete language with only one bignum variable 00:48:22 yes 00:48:27 obviously 00:48:33 psh who needs variables 00:48:52 also what bike said, cf. the lambda calculus 00:48:58 madbr, you can encode lists of integers as an integer if you think in terms of product of primes 00:49:04 lambda calculus has variables! 00:49:08 * Bike was actually thinking combinators 00:49:17 Schönfinkel in da house 00:49:17 madbr: fractran 00:49:17 Taneb, just treat it as a bitstream 00:49:19 taneb: yeah but that's ok if you have like 2 or 3 variables 00:49:41 [1, 2, 3] -> 2^1 * 3^2 * 5^3 = 2250 00:50:26 which essentially does what Taneb says 00:50:29 madbr, you can do that for infinite variables because there are infinite primes 00:50:33 madbr, we proved sumamoito tc essentially using only one variable 00:50:59 You could also use a more reasonable code but lol math. 00:51:52 (there were a few others because sumamoito has next to no facilities for actually manipulating that variable, but they wouldn't be needed if you had arithmetic builtins) 00:52:52 augh 00:53:14 the back of my chair went loose and now my neck hurts like hell 00:53:31 why didn't i listen when they warned me about good posture 00:58:11 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:05:41 -!- mekeor has joined. 01:06:04 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:06:58 -!- augur has joined. 01:12:52 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:18:41 -!- nooga has joined. 01:28:12 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:31:46 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:42:30 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:45:57 A random real number isn't even random 01:47:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit). 01:49:38 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:50:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:53:40 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:55:25 -!- cantcode has changed nick to banana_pee. 02:00:34 -!- nooodl has joined. 02:01:40 http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/155156/is-it-generally-accepted-that-if-you-throw-a-dart-at-a-number-line-you-will-neve 02:03:26 yeah it's like countably infinite (rationals) vs uncountably infinite (irrationals) 02:03:29 or something like that 02:04:04 if you throw a countably infinite number of darts, what's the probability at least one will hit a rational? 02:04:31 heh that's a hard question 02:05:11 Sounds like the kind of problem that's fun to complicate unnecessarily. 02:05:16 it does XD 02:05:22 I like complicating the birthday "paradox" by mentioning that birthdays are not evenly distributed. 02:05:33 I am going to arbitrarily say the probability is epsilon. 02:05:35 "How strong is your throwing arm?" 02:05:42 "How far is the number line from the thrower? 02:05:42 i like how, if you look at the wikipedia article on 'wedge', the actual article on real-life wedges is near the bottom 02:05:48 "How big are the darts?" 02:05:57 yeah it's like countably infinite (rationals) vs uncountably infinite (irrationals) 02:05:58 or something like that 02:06:05 I guess my intuition would say that on average one would hit? 02:06:07 i think it's mostly measure 02:06:07 s 02:06:13 but this seems like a case where intuition will be totally wrong 02:06:37 but idk if you can have a measure space with both uncountable and countable sets with nonzero measure 02:06:38 Intuition hates cardinality. 02:06:47 if you throw a countably infinite number of darts, what's the probability at least one will hit a rational? <-- 0 hth 02:06:50 i'd say 0 02:06:58 guys i'm not sure this is cardinality... 02:07:16 oerjan, help 02:07:17 ugh why am i reawake 02:07:18 essentially rationals and non-transcendental irrationals are countable so they have a surface area of 0 02:07:36 Fiora, something something something countable products 02:07:44 Phantom_Hoover: sure you can, you can sum a discrete and a continuous measure easily 02:07:55 right 02:09:03 Man, I just want to know how hard proving something rational is. 02:09:13 countably infinite number of darts, I don't think you'd hit anything 02:09:42 you've got countable infinity number of points that can be hit 02:09:56 Phantom_Hoover: you can also split it up into a continuous and a discrete one 02:09:58 and countably infinite number of darts that will be thrown 02:09:59 a few weeks ago i've heard another interesting analogy including darts, chances of hit, and all that improbable (but true) cicumstances leading straight to the possibility of existance. it's that there are two way of the perfect 'hit': one is aiming and hitting by chance.. the other is like throwing the dart somewhere and drowing the mark around the place it hits :> 02:10:08 countable infinity * countable infinity = still countable infinity 02:10:10 Bike, 7 hards 02:10:38 Bike: is it proving rational or transcendental that's hard? 02:10:42 *drawing 02:10:45 I thought rational wasjust proving it could be expressed as p/q 02:10:47 I know a guy on the street who sells perfect hits 02:11:04 waiting for my man26$ 02:11:08 in my hand 02:11:19 hagb4rd: That sounds like the kind of analogy that a painfully stupid person might use as proof of God or divine design. 02:11:33 not really 02:11:37 Fiora: well, we've proved less numbers transcendental, and all rationals are algebraic... 02:11:46 just some humoristic thoughts 02:11:51 Bike: yeah, that's what I thought 02:11:53 transcendental is the hard one 02:11:57 btw it's simply basic countable additivity of measures, an axiom. mu(A_1 \/ A_2 \/ ...) <= sum mu(A_i) = 0 02:12:14 But we still don't know if Euler-Mascheroni or Khinchin are rational, let alone algebraic. 02:12:24 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:12:25 (ok a little more work to show it's subadditive when the sets are not disjoint.) 02:12:36 Bike: wow @_@ 02:12:47 Yeah, it's weird. 02:12:49 Fiora, the difficulty is simply that proving /anything/ on an arbitrary real number is really hard 02:12:55 Khinchin is a really weird constant anyway. 02:13:07 And relevant! Since almost all real numbers conform to it. 02:13:33 Phantom_Hoover: well, it's not arbitrary, it's computable, right? 02:13:36 and computable reals are countable 02:13:58 uncomputably countable, but yes 02:14:17 otoh proving anything on an arbitrary computable number is harder in even messier ways 02:14:19 I meant like, countable as in countably infinite right 02:14:26 The hell does that mean? Obviously it's not recursive but what's that have to do with cardinality 02:14:35 nothing? 02:14:46 i just thought it was really weird when i first realised 02:14:55 well it's still r.e. 02:15:05 I... think 02:15:54 Bike: is it proving rational or transcendental that's hard? <-- basically if a number isn't obviously one of those by construction, then discerning them is usually hard. 02:16:08 yeah, you can just enumerate the set of programs in some languag 02:16:09 e 02:16:40 but discerning the ones that correspond to computable reals is isomorphic to the halting problem, of course 02:17:04 yeah, I guess it's like, proving things /not/ rational is hard <.< 02:17:46 and proving things rational is hard if you cannot find the particular rational they're equal to 02:17:59 That's why people like me are still roaming the streets. 02:18:12 searching. searching for the rational numbers hiding in the dark alleys 02:18:32 passing out illegal primes 02:18:32 Hmm, I was thinking along the lines of "no one can prove I'm not rational". 02:18:36 But that works too. 02:18:42 Does anyone really care whether khinchin's constant is irrational 02:19:06 think of the implications, Jafet 02:19:12 think of the implications 02:19:18 * Jafet thinks. 02:19:49 Not all is lost, though! At least the Euler-Macaroni constant is computable. 02:19:51 ( save the implications! ) 02:20:28 also the euler-macarena constant is real 02:20:37 Do you mean Euler-Mascheroni? 02:20:38 Does a program that computes the euler-macaroni constant consist of spaghetti code? 02:21:02 Wikipedia doesn't have Euler-Macaroni. 02:21:30 zzo38: If I want to call it Euler-Macaroni, then by FSM, I will! 02:21:32 No one can stop me! 02:22:05 shachaf: the euler-mascara constant isn't any random person's to name 02:22:25 shachaf: I am not trying to stop you. 02:22:25 istr my analysis notes saying we only know the euler-mechanic constant to 20 digits 02:22:38 which seems to be very, very wrong 02:22:40 Jafet: "it would be really weird" 02:22:56 that was true in... 1809 or so? 02:22:57 your analysis notes? 02:23:02 zzo38: I see right through your Euler-Masquerade! 02:23:04 Phantom_Hoover: the wikipedia introduction has 50... 02:23:10 hagb4rd: notes from a class on analysis 02:23:16 sieged by ignorant misanthropes spitting words 02:23:18 it says we know 28,844,489,545 as of 2009? XD 02:23:22 writing songs that voices never share 02:23:38 you have ruined that song for me forever 02:23:39 Fiora: eh, what's nine orders of magnitude between friends 02:23:44 Phantom_Hoover was probably thinking about bruno's constant 02:24:18 bruno's constant? 02:24:24 shachaf: Do you like to see things that aren't necessarily there? 02:25:05 zzo38: Like a hippopotamus? 02:25:14 zzo38: Oh, are you talking about modal logic here? 02:25:44 in that case, have you ever seen a thing that was necessarily there? 02:25:44 ¬□there, or something? 02:26:05 I.e. ◇¬there? 02:26:33 No, I mean you. 02:27:01 You mean me, and I mean modal logic. 02:27:07 And surely meaning is transitive? 02:27:46 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 02:28:22 hello to you too, monqy 02:28:24 itym transcendental 02:29:29 zzo38: You should invent a crazy new kind of modal logic that uses crazy new symbols. 02:29:38 Maybe things like 25C9 FISHEYE [◉] 02:29:38 25CA LOZENGE [◊] 02:31:17 Fisheye logic? 02:31:24 Maybe logic for optics. 02:31:48 ◯ ○ 02:31:53 See the difference between those two? 02:32:03 One of them is LARGE 02:32:06 size matters 02:32:26 -!- Jon1 has joined. 02:32:49 hagb4rd: Have you ever said anything useful? 02:33:24 it's yet to be observed 02:33:27 `welcome Jon1 02:33:36 Jon1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:34:50 shachaf: have ever made someone happy? 02:34:50 `relcome Phantom_Hoover 02:34:55 ​Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:35:23 hagb4rd, on this channel, at leasy, he has a considerable lead on you. 02:35:27 *at least 02:35:38 -!- Jon1 has left. 02:35:51 yes. i follow. 02:35:58 you lead 02:36:11 hope you have an idea of the next goal to achieve 02:36:28 tell me, hagb4rd, do you actually think all the shit that comes out of your mouth is deep, or are you just posturing 02:36:37 cmon phanti 02:37:00 have a cake! 02:37:32 shit that comes out of my mouth 02:37:37 my dear 02:37:38 how good are compilers at optimizing loop test conditions? 02:38:10 438 points good. 02:38:58 um, like, what specifically about them? 02:40:16 like, trying to count down to avoid cmp at the end and stuff? 02:41:10 whoa,dude, look at all these TLDs: http://www.iana.org/domains/special 02:41:35 no more like guessing that your routine is going to loop like 8 times in one go 02:42:01 you mean, unrolling? 02:42:28 The easy way to figure out how good a compiler is at optimizing a specific piece of code is to compile that piece of code and see what it does. 02:43:40 mhm 02:44:02 http://דוגמה.טעסט/ 02:44:19 wondering about this because I'm working on a, uh, fairly interesting CPU arch 02:44:28 which one :o 02:44:58 Do you have any better documentation of Yamaha OPM? 02:45:09 ooh, devanagari? 02:45:28 the one where iteration 1 of a loop is done on core 1, iteration 2 is on core 2, iteration 3 is on core 3, iteration 4 is on core 4, iteration 5 is on core 5, iteration 6 is on core 6, iteration 7 is on core 7, iteration 8 is on core 8, iteration 9 is on core 1, iteration 10 is on core 2... 02:45:34 wait, this is a real cpu arch? 02:45:52 not yet 02:45:53 "Powered by MEDIAWIKI" 02:45:55 .... oh 02:46:00 but it's definitely doable 02:46:02 um. I don't think you can meaningfully ask 02:46:09 what a compiler does on an arch that doesn't exist <.< 02:46:12 >.> 02:46:27 Well, you can, unless the compiler also does not exist 02:46:35 Then it is less meaningful 02:47:14 I suppose it was a more general "what sorts of loopy behaviors are compilers good at recognizing?" sort of question. 02:47:17 zzo : hmm... I remember being told that if you try to change synth params on the fly, OPM (or was it OPN2?) can crash 02:47:18 well guessing at loop invariants is an optimization thing dating from the 60s 02:47:21 If your CPU has eight cores and fully coherent shared cache, you are doomed to fail in any case. 02:47:27 or 50s 02:48:15 50s = 60s 02:48:16 jafet : it's more like 8-way SSE / 8-issue superscalar 02:48:26 might cut it down to 4-way 02:48:30 8-issue superscalar already exists, I think 02:48:33 there's some TI DSPs that do that 02:48:58 the nice thing is that the design will be a lot less complicated than some of those 02:49:19 um, are you sure? some ofthose DSPs use less than a watt and are miniscule 02:49:33 I mean, like, they're not complicated 02:49:56 yeah and you have to write for them in ASM? 02:50:06 I don't think so... 02:50:22 http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/dsp/c6000_dsp/c64x/products.page 02:50:53 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sprs371f/sprs371f.pdf 02:52:16 madbr: Yes, I think I read something about such things doing so too, but still, I have not found any good documentation for OPM. 02:52:41 fiora: hmm, that looks fairly close to what the crusoe did 02:53:11 same kind of 8 unit pre-issued super-superscalar vliw design 02:54:00 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 02:54:55 fiora : that's a DSP 02:55:04 essentially 2 cores bundled together 02:55:19 can you really write efficient code for that in C++? :D 02:55:51 I don't think it's two cores? 02:56:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMS320C64x doesn't say anything about multicore at least 02:56:18 oh, I see. the two sets of functional units. 02:56:50 yeah so it's not multicore but it's two units 02:57:52 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1453718/ti-dsp-programming-is-c-fast-enough-or-do-i-need-an-assembler I found this I guess 02:59:17 yeah so you probably have to use intrinsics 02:59:33 I think the intrinsics are just for the built-in SIMD stuff 02:59:38 like the 2x16-bit and 4x8-bit? 02:59:48 oh 02:59:54 since, like, you can't really write that in C 03:00:04 well anyways 03:00:17 the design I have beats that 03:00:22 it can vectorize any loop 03:00:48 as long as you delay the write operations to the next cycle 03:01:50 which is why it has to have special registers for data feedback from iteration to iteration 03:02:08 and some opcodes to "lock" memory addresses until the real writeback 03:02:23 but other than that it's just a normal RISC 03:05:45 like, you only even just need a decoder for the first core 03:06:09 and just use delayed versions of the same instructions next cycle on the next core 03:07:52 the point is to get performance similar to crazy superscalar RISCs 03:08:06 but for much less complexity 03:08:23 and without the severe restrictions on datapaths etc you see in DSPs 03:15:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:16:45 this sounds interesting. would you mind to share a look on your solution/code/paper? (as long as it's not finished and sold/open source) 03:18:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:18:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:23:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:23:55 -!- tswett_ has joined. 03:29:00 -!- GeoffreyVanSchau has joined. 03:30:41 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split). 03:30:41 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 03:38:03 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett. 03:43:36 -!- GeoffreyVanSchau has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:55:17 -!- myndzi has joined. 04:07:46 -!- mekeor has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)). 04:24:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:38:44 back from supper 04:40:33 hagb4rd : I have a little bit of what code would look like on it 04:41:26 http://pastebin.com/eCMNNxiF 04:42:22 doesn't use feedback registers or anti-alias memory operations tho (so it would probably have to be written as ASM or with intrinsics) 05:04:10 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:05:34 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:06:22 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 05:11:15 -!- monqy has joined. 05:16:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 05:19:19 -!- dessos_ has joined. 05:20:16 -!- ais523_ has joined. 05:20:54 -!- monqy_ has joined. 05:21:34 -!- monqy has quit (Disconnected by services). 05:21:39 -!- monqy_ has changed nick to monqy. 05:24:17 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 05:24:54 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 05:26:33 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 05:27:03 -!- dessos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:27:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:27:32 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:27:32 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:27:32 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:28:02 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 05:43:16 -!- Sanky has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:43:34 -!- Sanky has joined. 05:43:36 -!- Sanky has quit (Excess Flood). 05:44:05 -!- Sanky has joined. 05:48:28 -!- ssue_ has joined. 05:52:08 -!- SirCmpwn_ has joined. 05:52:34 -!- ssue has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:52:34 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:52:36 -!- monqy has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- surma has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- oonbotti has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- kmc has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:52:39 -!- ssue_ has quit (Changing host). 05:52:39 -!- ssue_ has joined. 05:52:40 -!- SirCmpwn_ has quit (Changing host). 05:52:40 -!- SirCmpwn_ has joined. 05:52:42 -!- ssue_ has changed nick to ssue. 05:52:55 -!- SirCmpwn_ has changed nick to SirCmpwn. 05:56:53 -!- monqy has joined. 05:56:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 05:56:53 -!- surma has joined. 05:56:53 -!- oonbotti has joined. 05:56:53 -!- kmc has joined. 05:57:51 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 06:07:41 -!- ogrom has joined. 06:16:29 `ralist 06:16:30 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ralist: not found 06:17:09 nooooo 06:18:35 SirCmpwn: Hmm. Where in CO are ye? 06:19:26 -!- monqy has joined. 06:21:07 -!- dessos has joined. 06:21:19 Sgeo: Red Alert 4 is coming out? 06:21:49 Sam Hughes posted a new story in Ra 06:21:54 http://qntm.org/ra 06:23:30 `qlnitsmt 06:23:32 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qlnitsmt: not found 06:23:49 -!- dessos_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:26:10 -!- dessos_ has joined. 06:26:15 -!- dessos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:26:32 theory: it is substantially easier for something to be awesome if it has no purpose other than awesomeness 06:26:33 Oh, the Other Sam Hughes. 06:26:42 agree/disagree? 06:27:20 Other Sam Hughes? 06:27:27 -!- md_5 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 06:27:50 ais523: I would imagine the opposite. 06:27:56 -!- md_5 has joined. 06:27:59 ais523, that makes sense. Although I don't know if that's true in all cases. Certainly in a game like Worms, Armageddon is awesome but near useless 06:28:16 hmm 06:28:37 (Armageddon sends asteroids that destroys most of the land and kills most things, friendly or not) 06:28:44 the example I'm thinking of, is adding a background character to a gameshow, who does nothing but watch, and make a map of the activity, and can /teleport/ 06:28:55 I find this to be very awesome, despite being completely pointless 06:29:11 like, all the things he could do with teleportation ability, and he chooses to do that 06:29:22 oh good i thought you were going to make them be the character representing the viewer 06:29:22 also he never does anything with the map, AFAICT 06:29:37 Bike: hmm, well it's not my character 06:29:44 Searching for Armageddon about a game called Worms Armageddon is kind of difficult 06:29:45 perhaps he represents the viewer? it seems unlikely though 06:29:57 Sgeo: this is actually the reason Ubuntu versions have such weird names 06:30:05 I'm imagining a teleporting nepeta 06:30:19 what's a nepeta? 06:30:23 Fiora: I had nothing to do with it! 06:30:27 pikhq: haven't been highlighted in here in a while 06:30:34 pikhq: I'm in Colorado Springs, near Garden of the Gods 06:30:38 …what's a Cmpwn? 06:30:45 ais523, a character in Homestuck. 06:30:47 ah 06:30:50 ais523: sex toy 06:30:53 Sgeo: really? 06:30:57 SirCmpwn: Huh. 06:30:58 ais523: Apparently related to me. 06:31:01 SirCmpwn: I'm in Falcon. 06:31:01 `? shachaf 06:31:04 shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. 06:31:05 pikhq: well done 06:31:22 `? ais523 06:31:24 Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. 06:31:30 Now to wonder if I know you in meatspace. 06:31:43 she makes charts of all the relationships of the other characters and updates it as the story goes on 06:31:52 Fiora: oh, that makes sense 06:32:00 that's also kind-of awesome 06:32:01 (but isn't that involved in the main plot) 06:32:02 Hmm, I don't do that. 06:32:10 Not for #esoteric, anyway. 06:32:14 Maybe I should. 06:32:27 pikhq: aka Drew DeVault 06:32:32 SirCmpwn: Would you happen to know a "Josiah Worcester"? 06:32:38 nope 06:32:38 Mmm, not really. 06:32:47 pikhq: isn't that pikhq's real name? 06:32:53 the only time I've been in Falcon was for a marching band competetion in high school 06:32:56 that was a while ago 06:33:00 I'm kind-of amused I recognised it 06:33:06 haven't seen it for years 06:33:10 http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727230124/mspaintadventures/images/1/13/02295.gif <-- the 'shipping wall' 06:33:38 hmm… other things that are unexpectedly awesome: in An Untitled Story, very few of the characters have names 06:34:02 At this point I am confused. 06:34:04 @wn awesome 06:34:04 *** "awesome" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 06:34:05 awesome 06:34:05 adj 1: inspiring awe or admiration or wonder; "New York is an 06:34:05 amazing city"; "the Grand Canyon is an awe-inspiring 06:34:05 sight"; "the awesome complexity of the universe"; "this 06:34:07 [4 @more lines] 06:34:11 there's one character (a shuriken-throwing ninja) who appears exactly twice, makes a grand appearance that's hard to exist, and although his name is never said in-game, it's apparently "Shakespeare" 06:34:12 awe-full 06:34:16 ais523: Yes, that's my real name. 06:34:21 ais523: I am Josiah "pikhq" Worcester. 06:34:22 and that makes him rather more awesome than he would be otherwise 06:34:39 pikhq: SDA grammar? (SDA always presents nicknames like that, it looks weird) 06:34:48 SirCmpwn: Anyways. I'm a student at UCCS. 06:34:52 ais523: SDA? 06:34:57 pikhq: there's a UCCS in falcon? 06:34:58 speedrunning site 06:35:03 Oh. That one. 06:35:08 "University of Colorado Colorado Springs"? 06:35:10 SirCmpwn: No, I drive the 15 miles. 06:35:13 Do they actually call it that? 06:35:16 pikhq: fancy 06:35:17 shachaf: Yes. 06:35:19 Incidentally, the girl with the blue helmet in the red circle in that chart is Nepeta 06:35:32 SirCmpwn: Though there *is* a PPCC campus out here now. 06:35:35 Sgeo: It's like looking into a cosmirror. 06:35:41 (She's in that relationship, and also wants to be in the relationship that has her and the guy with the Cancer symbol) 06:35:42 It's kinda pathetic, but nevertheless. 06:35:44 pikhq: feel free to give me a ring sometime and I'll buy you a beer, or your age bracket's equivalent of beer 06:35:57 My age bracket's equivalent of beer is beer, so. 06:36:14 so the sentence can be optimized 06:36:15 A ring? Isn't it a bit early for that? 06:36:18 Sadly just started on some meds that scream "don't use alcohol" though. 06:36:29 :( what ails you? 06:36:31 Fiora, look at the probably not relationship 06:36:43 Depression. ... So, twice bad idea actually. 06:37:10 I'll buy you a whore, then 06:37:15 pikhq: I recommend not trying to implement Feather as a depression cure 06:37:20 I tried once, I thought it might help 06:37:21 ais523: No plans to. 06:37:24 instead I ended up depressed /and/ confused 06:37:37 Sgeo: ironically yeah <.< took 3 years though 06:37:39 SirCmpwn: Meh. 06:37:41 oh i thought he meant, "not trying to implement feather" as a depression cure 06:37:51 I hear sex is good for sadness 06:37:55 hmm 06:38:00 though not suitable as a long term cure 06:38:00 Yeah, but not really for depression. 06:38:14 "trying not to implement Feather" is a combination that hasn't been tried, perhaps? 06:38:22 the usual state of affairs is "trying to not implement Feather" 06:38:33 and occasionally, "trying to implement not-Feather" 06:38:48 Alas, sex with girlfriend does not exactly do anything about feelings of self-loathing. 06:38:52 How do I tell the difference between sadness because of my situation and depression? 06:39:04 pikhq: have you tried auto-fellatio? 06:39:18 SirCmpwn: I am insufficiently flexible. 06:39:24 pikhq: :( 06:39:38 pikhq: fwiw, as far as I can tell the best cure for depression is having something to achieve 06:39:54 apparently it's medical advice hour in #esoteric 06:40:02 Sgeo: doc tells you you're crazy 06:40:11 is "seeing a psychologist" on that list? 06:40:33 which list 06:40:33 ais523: Yeah, um, getting out of bed is quite an accomplishment. 06:40:37 do we have an `mlist too 06:40:40 Is "seeing a philosopher" on the other list? 06:40:45 `mlist 06:40:47 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mlist: not found 06:40:56 Seeing a psychologist sounds like a bad idea to me. 06:41:01 pikhq: that sounds more like flu than depression 06:41:08 Then again, what if I have an anti-psychologist neurosis? 06:41:10 yeah, psychiatrist would be better 06:41:13 And anyways, I've just *started* medical treatment for it. 06:41:21 Psychiatrist sounds like an even worse idea to me. 06:41:23 ais523: it's pretty common with depression too. lack of energy and stuff 06:41:24 hmm, medical treatment sounds like it might help 06:41:54 No! Philosopher would be better, unless you are really religious in which case you should go to church instead. 06:41:55 People who have it really really really bad can like, stay up for days straight starting at walls. 06:42:05 fun times 06:42:13 ais523: Depression is rather different from merely being sad. Utter lack of energy and motivation, inability to enjoy things... 06:42:32 you missed an opportunity to call it anhedonia 06:42:37 I did. 06:42:39 good enough word that you should use it as much as possible imo 06:42:42 'Tis. 06:42:50 Particularly if it's applicable. 06:42:57 pikhq: indeed 06:43:05 Anhedonia may be the worst thing. 06:43:07 and yeah, Bike's word is indeed good 06:43:11 zzo38, um, I don't think philosophy can fix brain chemical balance issues 06:43:36 Sgeo: it could change the way you react to them 06:43:41 Sgeo: I also don't think so, but it is worth a try 06:43:41 you know i'm not sure how to feel about the "chemical imbalance" thing 06:44:04 on the one hand, it helps dissociate it from the common "just stop being sad" reaction. on the other, it's not very accurate and biopsychiatry by itself isn't so great 06:44:30 I also had not seen the word "biopsychiatry" before 06:44:30 does it vary from case to case? 06:44:36 It's a *lot* closer than many misconceptions of how depression works, though. 06:44:37 * ais523 invents molecular philosophy 06:44:47 Bike: how about "depression is a brain state with negative consequences that is often difficult to escape through normal means"? 06:44:55 What is a more accurate description? 06:44:58 Fiora: Sounds complicated. 06:45:04 In that clearly depression is an unusual and tricky brain state. 06:45:09 Sgeo: Probably what Fiora said, I guess. 06:45:28 I'm imagining, like. a gradient descent search getting caught in a valley 06:45:29 but 06:45:30 I'm a dork 06:45:31 biopsychiatry is just psychiatry from a biological view; you're insane because your neurotransmitters don't bond dopamine the right way, or w/e 06:45:53 unfortunately chemical treatment alone isn't always effective. 06:46:11 If you don't have anything to do, then do something else. 06:46:27 molecular philosophy is, like, do atoms have rights? 06:46:34 and if not, why not? 06:46:43 Oh, I was thinking mereology. 06:46:51 I think anything capable of asking for civil rights should be granted them 06:46:55 if you replace every atom of someone with another atom, when do they lose their rights? 06:46:56 so, tell me, have atoms asked? 06:47:03 hmm 06:47:04 large groups of atoms have asked! 06:47:05 main = putStrLn "May I have civil rights?" 06:47:05 bike : for some mental illnesses that's the best treatment we have I think 06:47:22 SirCmpwn: Well, yes, I think so too. But still, you must think of it more thoroughly. 06:47:28 madbr: usually some kind of therapy along with drugs helps. but as you said (or, asked) it varies from case to case. 06:47:41 Yes, atom will have a rights to be atomic, for example. 06:47:49 zzo38: >civil rights 06:47:52 Bike: Be nice if it were... Simple, easy cure for being in a state where "pleasure" is nontrivial would be nice. 06:48:00 zzo38: was that a pun? 06:48:01 They don't do other things, so the other rights simply is not applicable; therefore you don't answer yes or no. 06:48:03 Fiora: but can you really say atoms are "groups" in any meaningful sense ehhhhh?? 06:48:15 ais523: I don't know. 06:48:56 pikhq: and on the other side, http://depressioncomix.tumblr.com/image/41893397817 06:49:01 Bike: Everything is "groups" of stuff simply defined as being stuff by the division we are using into physical objects; that is not the only way to do it! All the universe is one thing all together. 06:49:09 zzo38: well, you can offer civil rights, even if they are incapable of using them 06:49:34 SirCmpwn: It wouldn't be useful or even meaningful though. 06:49:38 Bike: Mmm. I recently was linked to that tumblr. It is... rather too applicable. 06:49:39 wait I just noticed the topic 06:49:41 whose fault is that? 06:49:53 Bike, :( 06:50:00 zzo38: doesn't matter. If they ask, they'll be offered them. They needn't take advantage of it 06:50:01 pikhq: i know, right :( 06:50:02 I'm not even angry, I don't think it technically breaks any rules 06:50:03 Should they have the rights? Yes, but since it isn't even meaningful to say does have such rights, it is not yes. 06:50:04 it just isn't useful 06:50:15 zzo38: also: collectively, atoms are capable of taking advantage of civil rights 06:50:24 I think zzo38's viewpoint makes a lot of sense here 06:50:29 Sgeo: the funny thing is, the comic's by the same guy as did Sexy Losers. 06:50:44 SirCmpwn: O, yes, of course you can do that, I suppose. But *if they ask* it means. Really you consider the large object consisting of many atoms, which is ask. 06:50:50 Bike, was he depressed? I remember he stopped doing them 06:50:55 If they ask individually, is they aren't. 06:50:56 zzo38: but, more to the point, anyone capable of asking for civil rights is also capable of, say, casting a vote 06:51:05 If it was, it would be meaningful! 06:51:18 If it cannot civil rights then it cannot ask, either. 06:51:24 Sgeo: He is, but I don't think that's why he stopped. I think he does Sexy Losers ish comics occasionally on another tumblr actually. 06:51:27 SirCmpwn: casting votes can be automated very easily 06:51:50 does that mean computers need rights? 06:51:55 SirCmpwn: Yes, that is true. 06:52:01 ais523: just one example. The point here is that someone capable of communicating their desire for civil rights is capable of communicating their opinions as offered by those rights 06:52:07 But not really relevant, until you figure out the first thing, really? 06:52:09 (arguably, all evolutions in voting methods have been attempts to avoid the automation of voting) 06:52:18 But, yeah, SirCmpwn. Appreciate the offer of beer, but ATM I've got a stock of such that I intend not to drink because I do not want to see how fluoxetine and ethanol interact. 06:52:27 ais523: before you say "I'll write a script to ask for civil rights", know that I'll find you and slap the shit out of you 06:52:29 ais523: Computers are what they are programmed to be. 06:52:49 SirCmpwn: you can write a script to print words to the screen, but I don't know if it would understand what it was saying 06:52:52 Does mathematical formulas have the right to vote *by themself*? You cannot easily count all the possible ones... 06:52:59 I think you can write a script to request civil rights for the author of the script 06:52:59 voting is pointless anyway haven't you all heard of arrow's theorem !!! 06:53:09 also, if sentient computing is achieved, those computers should be granted civil rights 06:53:24 Bike: I have, it doesn't really prove that voting is pointless though 06:53:36 SirCmpwn, didn't I do that just above? 06:53:38 basically, it just proves that except in ideal circumstances, all voting methods have defects 06:53:43 The thing that you said you'd slap ais523 for? 06:53:54 Sgeo: I didn't notice, but I'd slap you over it, too 06:53:56 Sgeo: you've been slapped down by the channel often enough already 06:54:20 btw, I /still/ don't recommend attempting to give your girlfriend cancer 06:54:30 I'm forced to agree. 06:54:33 But, yeah, SirCmpwn. Appreciate the offer of beer, but ATM I've got a stock of such that I intend not to drink because I do not want to see how fluoxetine and ethanol interact. 06:54:39 (backstory: some of the other members of the channel recommended that as a joke, AFAICT; I disagreed with them) 06:54:44 -!- azaq23 has joined. 06:54:45 * pikhq has not been paying attention to this room enough. 06:54:46 If you have room with people who don't know Chinese but will follow all the instructions given to them to make an answer to a question in Chinese (like ELIZA and some computer programs, but completely by hand), are they Chinese? 06:54:47 pikhq: alright, no problem. Swap beer out for "social gathering" if you wish 06:54:51 (further backstory: it's not entirely clear whether Sgeo actually has a girlfriend) 06:55:03 SirCmpwn: Very well then, sounds reasonable. 06:55:19 But really you must consider mathematics. Can a mathematics think? 06:55:36 I have a girlfriend as of more recently than that occurred. 06:55:38 fuck, i can't even joke off of what zzo38 said, because I just KNOW some psephologist has considered how elections would work in the presence of countably infinite voters. 06:55:40 I don't want to ask if a computer can think; I want to ask if a mathematics can think! 06:56:00 ('psephologist' is a good word too btw) 06:56:02 Bike: what's a psephologist? 06:56:09 zzo38: I suppose a sufficiently complex algorithm could think, but only with the assistance of a human interpreter, whose skills would be far too lacking to manage it 06:56:12 and yeah, you've come up with three words I didn't know in less than an hour 06:56:19 ais523: someone who studies voting systems 06:56:38 * pikhq wonders what his talking-here stats have looked like in the past couple years, but can't be bothered to write the script for that. 06:56:38 or similar things 06:56:51 fizzie may have those stats to hand already 06:56:54 pikhq: I think fizzie made some fancy-looking graphs. 06:56:56 he likes doing those sorts of stats 06:57:03 Something like fetching the logs and grepping the logs to generate a histogram, but *eh* 06:57:22 SirCmpwn: Are you sure? Well, the same algorithm could be put into a computer, although possibly it would be too complicated to put into the computer, too. Even so, some things may be too large for the universe, and/or can have mathematical formulas that nobody has figured out yet. 06:57:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem#Infinitely_many_individuals 06:57:48 Dammit. Dammit! 06:57:54 zzo38: I think that the human mind is just a really, really, REALLY complicated program 06:58:05 Furthermore, if you want to ask if a computer can think, also ask, can a submarine swim? 06:58:26 a submarine can swim as a proxy for a sentient being or an AI 06:58:35 it's a vehicle, it doens't calculate 06:58:40 (or think) 06:58:46 zzo38: from my point of view, I'm basically 100% certain that it's possible for a computer to be sentient 06:58:54 I'm not sure either way whether any currently existing computers are sentient 06:58:54 I'm more and more convinced that zzo38 is Gary P. Rastov. 06:59:06 kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences 06:59:06 I expect that there will be a human brain emulator within the century, zzo38 06:59:12 ais523: From my point of view, I don't know. 06:59:15 yes 06:59:22 I hope Norns aren't sentient 06:59:28 so… kmc's link basically says that there are voting systems that don't allow tactical voting when infinitely many voters are involved, but they're noncomputable? 06:59:29 If they are, I'm ... rather horrible 06:59:32 So! Terminology bit here. 06:59:51 But I expect, everything is mathematics. So, even the universe is mathematics. But, not necessarily mathematics that has exactly one solution all the time; it can be no solution, multiple solutions, and can even be uncomputable. 06:59:57 "sentient" means roughly "can feel sensations". Things like dolphins are dogs are sapient. You are probably talking about sapience. 07:00:05 ais523: and they contain 'invisible dictators' which are? 07:00:15 Sgeo: Just to clarify, you know I'm not serious about thinking you're a sociopath, right? 07:00:22 er, *are sentient 07:00:31 Bike: thanks for the correction 07:00:49 Bike: wait, did you correct a veiled insult into an actual insult? 07:00:49 Bike, somewhat, yes 07:00:54 Also, the author of a book can make any of the characters dead and/or illogical however they want, isn't it? 07:00:57 ais523: no? 07:01:18 I wouldn't have mentioned it except that the question for Sgeo is actually whether Norns are sentient, rather than sapient, since he's just worried about inflicting pain on them, not selling them insurance. 07:01:22 zzo38: if you prove to someone that they don't exist, do they stop existing? 07:01:23 Bike, although I know someone who is somewhat concerned about what I (and others) would do if sapient computer programs are created 07:01:34 so if you ask "are infinitely large societies governed without tactical voting all dictatorships?" the answer depends on whether you're using classical or constructive logic? 07:01:38 (or sentient?) 07:01:43 He uses the word conscious. 07:01:54 kmc: I hope the answer depends on the axiom of choice 07:01:56 ais523: If the proof is correct, they didn't exist at the time either, so they won't stop either. 07:01:56 "conscious" is good for that yeah, since it's more common :P 07:01:58 it might even be relevant! 07:02:06 zzo38: hmm, indeed 07:02:26 I'm pretty convinced that people have made robots that can feel hunger. It's an odd thing to think about. 07:02:33 Norns do have brains that detect pain, and react to such 07:02:39 So either way they won't stop existing. 07:02:42 Lemme upload a picture of the norn brain 07:02:44 Sgeo: what's this meaning of "norn"? 07:02:56 ais523: it's a thing in an alife game called Creatures. 07:03:15 the only meaning I know offhand is a specific mythological figure who's in charge of valkyries 07:03:18 Sgeo: I don't know much about Creatures but it doesn't seem like they're any more complicated than, like, nematodes. 07:03:49 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/Creatures/chichi_brain.PNG 07:04:11 ais523: Basically they're virtual animals with such things as distinguishable "personalities", and C&C of their bodies through an artificial neural network. And they have some genetics. 07:04:17 drive is things like hunger, pain, boredom 07:04:21 Bike: hmm 07:04:31 Sgeo: How many neurons is this, out of curiosity? 07:04:37 Nematodes have I think... 293? 07:04:38 I should change my pants 07:04:40 attention and decision are the outputs: What they're focusing on, and what the action is 07:04:44 I went to the store and bought more 07:04:52 btw, I think my own personal barrier for "when should something be considered sentient" is "the thing can communicate and add meaningfully to a discussion" 07:04:54 because the fly is busted on this one 07:04:55 Of course nematodal neurons are more complicated, but hey. 07:05:07 ais523: define meaningfully 07:05:11 this can in some cases include unborn children, and many animals 07:05:22 unborn children wat 07:05:25 SirCmpwn: you end up knowing more/different than if it hadn't contributed to the discussion 07:05:27 comb is 40*13 = 520 I think (if I counted the verbs right) 07:05:45 SirCmpwn: it's possible for unborn children to communicate, once they're negative-young enough, isn't it? 07:05:45 Bike, also, the lobes and dendrites all have pieces of code in a weird language 07:05:49 ah, nematodes have 302. 07:05:51 That's not visible on there 07:05:53 or rather c. elegans do. 07:05:57 the mother can feel the inside of her womb 07:06:00 ais523: it's barely possible for them to communicate *after* birth 07:06:11 I would say the most important thing is the drive->comb dendrites 07:06:16 Wow, you know. C. elegans have 1031 cells, and of those 302 are neurons. That's like, almost a third! 07:06:26 babies come out bumbling, stupid, and crippled, and become intelligent over the course of several months 07:06:30 SirCmpwn: they can communicate needing attemption versus not needing attention 07:06:33 even from birth 07:06:37 ais523: so can a dog 07:06:41 yeah 07:06:42 dogs are sentient 07:06:47 aren't yhey? 07:06:49 *they? 07:06:54 as in Bike's definition of "capable of sensation"? 07:06:57 Since each comb neuron corresponds to a particular course of action to take 07:07:01 SirCmpwn: as in my definition 07:07:04 Like "eat seed" 07:07:07 but I think pretty much everyone's 07:07:08 state your defintion 07:07:09 SirCmpwn: That's the generally-accepted notion of sentient actually. 07:07:15 And drive corresponds to things like pain and hunger 07:07:19 pikhq: indeed, but there was confusion earlier 07:07:24 SirCmpwn: Star Trek "sentient" is a weird mutation of the term. 07:07:32 Do you think, everything is mathematics, or do you think, everything is physics, or something else different? 07:07:33 Meaning basically "sapient". 07:07:42 * Bike is pretty jaded to "can computers think" sorts of arguments, if it's not obvious. 07:08:01 I don't know what the response lobe does 07:08:04 Of course, in a lot of contexts they're practically interchangeable. A sentient computer and a sapient computer would both be rather shocking. 07:08:05 I forgot about it :/ 07:08:14 (though the sapient computer more so) 07:08:16 zzo38: isn't it possible that mathematics is physics, and so everything is both mathematics and physics? 07:08:30 Sgeo: Yeah, it definitely sounds like norns have a lot of their behavioral repetoire pre-baked, but that's to be expected. 07:08:35 ais523: I don't think so! I think physics is mathematics. 07:08:52 sorry, the point I was making earlier is that babies are not special and I wouldn't even call them capable of intelligence until many months after birth 07:09:08 "intelligence" here meaning coherent thought like you and I are capable of 07:09:20 SirCmpwn: So, "sapient". 07:09:27 Bike, well, yes, but not as you'd might think. The drive->comb connections are random at first, and the dendrites wander based on reward/punishment 07:09:29 yes 07:09:31 Like you and I... that is your self-centerism 07:09:41 zzo38: wat 07:09:42 Yes, babies take several months to become sapient. 07:09:44 But they have "instincts" in their genomes that make them dream of, say, eating a seed and being rewarded for it 07:09:45 zzo38: is it possible for physics to be mathematics, but mathematics to not be physics? 07:09:54 Sgeo: I still haven't played Creatures despite how cool it seems. Weird, huh? 07:10:07 ais523: Well, not entirely. Mathematics is beyond physics. 07:10:12 ok 07:10:16 Bike, http://creaturesdockingstation.com/ 07:10:17 Or, at least, that is what I mean. 07:10:33 Bike: Hey, I last played a videogame for very long in 2010 or so, so... 07:10:47 Uh, the first screenshot on there isn't DS 07:10:49 videogames can be good 07:10:54 I last played a videogame a few hours ago 07:11:05 Sgeo: yeah, i still have it open, i just haven't gotten around to it. 07:11:09 in fact, one recent enough to have a copyright date of 2012 07:11:19 But have you played Super ASCII MZX Town a few minutes ago? 07:11:23 zzo38: no 07:11:24 My queue just keeps growing and growing. 07:11:30 you could probably have guessed that 07:11:30 Don't bother with the registration thing though, I think the Warp is down anyway 07:11:37 Just get the offline option 07:11:47 pikhq: hmm… I don't keep a queue 07:11:49 Have you played any Famicom game with the copyright date 2013? 07:11:52 rather I play what I feel like playing 07:11:53 zzo38: no 07:12:01 ais523: It's metaphorical in this case. 07:12:02 I'm not sure if I've played any game with the copyright date 2013 07:12:13 I mean, I jump around between games a lot, and replay them often 07:12:14 Or else public domain; even if it is not copyright. 07:12:17 (Some are public domain) 07:12:32 I would like to have a word with whoever designed scissor packaging that requires scissors to open 07:12:34 I've also got a giant queue of... every other form of media, really. 07:12:40 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 07:12:49 SirCmpwn: Yes, I also want to complain to them too 07:12:56 I have a big pile of books 07:12:57 (if there were a god, I'd call him a dick for even having "anhedonia" in the same universe as me) 07:12:58 literally 07:12:59 :( 07:13:16 i also have a phone with an increasingly more irritating ebook reader 07:13:18 Bike: so do I, but most of them I'm not intending to read again in the near future, or possibly at all 07:13:28 that's just it i haven't read them 07:13:30 they call for me... 07:13:46 and I don't have an ebook reader that isn't also a general purpose computer 07:14:04 They still make machines that aren't also general purpose computers? 07:14:08 (all general purpose computers are ebook readers) 07:14:16 Bike: sure, in fact they're becoming more common, not less 07:14:24 Whoa. 07:14:29 basically because they would be general purpose computers but have artificial restrictions so that they aren't 07:15:10 That is why I make the computers which are very general purpose computers with no restrictions other than the security stuff that the user can always override anyways. 07:15:30 or to put it another way, specific purpose computers made using general purpose computers 07:15:33 (And to include instructions in the book, tell you how to override, how to program it, how everything is working.) 07:16:02 zzo38: yes, I'd be very surprised if a computer you made was locked down 07:17:00 To really ensure general purposes, to ensure it is made so that it can be made anyone can clone even not needing patents to do so (even if patented technology must be used, such that it can be made the same easily without it too), however, having a trademark license so that if someone makes the wrong clone, that they cannot use the same name. 07:17:10 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:18:09 ais523: Well, there are some restrictions on it but you can easily remove them without causing problems with existing software, so it is not a problem. 07:18:47 (Such as a reprogrammable ROM chip is normally not reprogrammable unless you move the corresponding jumper, which is clearly labeled in the instruction book.) 07:21:12 And I mean really general purpose computer that you can even just turn on, and then type in the program codes and it will run (although you can also load the already existing programs too, even if they are already compiled). 07:21:34 Mostly PC BIOS computers don't have that anymore but they should make them such. 07:21:46 The Aristocrats! 07:22:23 What about aristocrats? 07:23:39 What is the point of the Continue bit in the envelopes in AY8910? It seems to be the same shape as the ones that do continue than the ones tat don't (since you can also use the Hold bit). 07:23:52 zzo38: Bike's referencing a famous joke pattern which ends up saying "the aristocrats" as a non sequitur 07:24:17 the joke pattern's sufficiently famous that you can reference the joke pattern just by using the punchline, the rest of the joke is irrelevant 07:24:26 OK 07:24:27 although if you do it that way, it isn't actually funy 07:24:29 *funny 07:24:34 zzo's version has way less rape, admittedly. 07:25:01 Version of what? 07:25:11 The joke. 07:25:32 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:26:51 having fewer rapes sounds like a good thing, generally speaking 07:27:05 unless something else bad increases to compensate, then it might or might not be a good thing 07:27:12 zzo: I'm not sure hardware envelopes make sense on chips with that few gates :o 07:27:14 It's true. 07:27:41 What if it's "rape" by the older definition of "seize" or "capture", ais523? 07:27:46 madbr: But they do have hardware envelopes. I don't know how many gates AY8910 has. 07:27:57 In context it is not, taneb. 07:28:02 Okay7 07:28:14 Taneb: then it depends on what's being seized and captured, and using the more modern words would be helpful in order to reduce confusion and avoid bad connotations 07:28:16 Okay7 is like "Gr8" but not as good 07:28:39 Okay with a salute 07:28:44 Yeah, fewer rapes seems like a generally good policy. 07:28:57 hmm… today seems to be the ais523 "have I mentioned I'm lawful good yet" day 07:29:05 3 march, I must remember that 07:29:12 `? ais523 07:29:14 Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. 07:29:16 "btw, rape? bad" 07:30:26 `run echo "Agent \"I\" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good." > wisdom/ais523 07:30:29 No output. 07:30:32 `? ais523 07:30:34 Agent "I" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 07:30:51 actually, I think I'm almost always lawful good, just more likely to point it out on the 3rd of March 07:30:53 What character encoding do you want to use? 07:31:01 UTF-EBCDIC 07:31:05 zzo38: utf-8 is a generally useful character encoding 07:31:08 In here is not 3rd of march, yet. 07:31:12 UCS-2.625 07:31:17 Bike: ouch for reminding me that exists 07:31:17 UTF-EBCDIC is not ASCII so don't use that. 07:31:21 :D 07:31:29 Use UTF-8 if you want to, though, or CP437, or whatever else. 07:31:34 zzo38: there are a lot of encodings that aren't ASCII 07:31:37 most of them, in fact 07:31:37 CP437 is also not ASCII 07:31:46 ISO/IEC 8859-14 07:31:48 zzo38 likes supersets of ascii. 07:31:48 UTF-8 is, at least, compatible with ASCII 07:31:49 what's cp435 again 07:31:58 So you are wrong CP437 is ASCII, and so is UTF-8. 07:32:03 How about SHIFT-JIS? 07:32:09 "good encoding" 07:32:12 madbr: CP437 is DOS. 07:32:26 SHIFT probably isn't supposed to be in allcaps, but I feel loud. 07:32:27 zzo38: Oh, apparently there are multiple CP437s? 07:32:33 Namely, the character set used by DOS in the US. 07:32:38 I was thinking of the one that has 0x01 representing ☺ and all that. 07:32:43 Bike: what about SHIFT-JIS, except you replace the shift codes with gambling games and add network transparency 07:32:46 shachaf: No, just one CP437 the others are other codepages. 07:32:48 the common ones are utf8 win32 (\r\n), utf8 linux, latin1 win32, latin1 linux, and then shift jis and a couple of other popular asian encodings 07:32:55 TIS-620 07:32:55 ais523: Yeah, that's CP437. 07:32:56 ais523: good encoding. w/o sacrequotes 07:32:57 Yes 0x01 is the happy face in CP437 07:33:00 scare* 07:33:20 and by latin1 I mean codepage whatever (the one used in win32, not the one with the dumb extended control characters) 07:33:32 madbr: windows-1252? 07:33:42 yeah 07:33:56 it also has some freakish iso name 07:34:06 I use whatever encoding I need depending on the program being used, but is usually ASCII. Sometimes some parts of programs might use other encodings even though it is mostly ASCII, such as VGMCK which is ASCII except for GD3 tags which are UTF-8 and are converted into UTF-16. 07:34:07 madbr, Code page 437 07:34:15 but everybody calls it latin-1 because, well, it's a zillion times more mnemotechnic 07:34:20 Shift-JIS is perhaps the worst encoding devised. 07:34:30 Don't call Windows-1252 Latin-1! 07:34:31 pikhq: worse than the one I suggested just above? 07:34:35 Also, don't call it ANSI. 07:34:38 madbr: latin-1 is a different encoding 07:34:42 People who call things ANSI are evil. 07:34:44 Since UTF-16 is not ASCII, it uses UTF-8 so that you can still use ASCII, and UTF-8 is otherwise the closest thing to convert to UTF-16. 07:34:46 latin-1 = iso-8859-1 ≠ windows-1252 07:34:49 ais523: Not worse than that. 07:34:50 (Things other than ANSI, that is.) 07:34:53 (The institute.) 07:34:54 ISO-8859-1 is latin1 is not Windows-1252 is not CP437 07:34:55 ais: it's IBM's original version 07:34:56 pikhq, it's probably just the most known weird country-specific encoding thing... eastern europe had a lot, didn't it? 07:34:59 also windows calls windows-1252 ansi for no obvious reason 07:35:00 ais: which nobody used 07:35:01 shachaf: "ANSI" is weirdo Windows-speak for "legacy charset". 07:35:19 shachaf: Likewise "Unicode" is weirdo Windows-speak for "UTF-16". 07:35:20 Bike: they are helpfully numbered from latin-1 up to latin-15 or so 07:35:20 (Actually it also accepts CESU-8, as well as overlong encodings, but you don't have to use those if you don't want to.) 07:35:26 ais523: beautiful 07:35:27 pikhq: does it have a defined endianness? 07:35:31 Bike: It's also the worst. 07:35:37 That's pretty worst. 07:35:37 ais523: UTF-16LE. 07:35:41 pikhq: Well, sometimes Windows people mean "Unicode" by "Unicode". 07:35:42 oh god 07:35:45 not utf16 07:35:45 Because Windows is only little-endian. 07:35:46 die 07:35:58 everything's little endian 07:36:00 Actually, I have no idea how Cyrillic was typed up. Or is typed up for that matter. 07:36:09 four thr thr fivee 07:36:11 What were they using on pirate C64s in the 80s? 07:36:28 Bike: cyrillic has a comparable number of letters to latin, doesn't it? 07:36:33 Windows is little endian even on CPUs that are usually big endian. 07:36:34 yeah 07:36:37 so probably just using ordinary keyboards except relabeled 07:36:47 I meant the encoding, but yeah I see your point. 07:36:51 Maybe China then... 07:37:04 well, i already know how weird chinese input methods get 07:37:16 pikhq: you mean on Alpha? 07:37:22 Also MIPS. 07:37:27 All the commands in the program are ASCII, and the comments can be whatever encodings you want (except ASCII control codes), so the program correctly follows the principle of extended ASCII. 07:37:31 there's a mips version of windows?!? 07:37:36 NT 4! 07:37:40 :o 07:37:43 crazy 07:38:19 zzo38: what about identifiers? 07:38:35 that's the main place where you might want to accept outside-ASCII characters in source code 07:38:37 oh, and string constants 07:38:41 even more so 07:38:58 actually I think most code is still stored as latin1 07:39:03 (and character constants if you don't consider them a special case of string constants) 07:39:15 madbr: most code is in ASCII, and thus can't be distinguished between latin-1 and UTF-8 07:39:20 with windows cr-lf or just lf depending on the coder 07:39:20 except when I write … in a comment out of habit 07:39:30 and it depends more on the editor and OS than the coder 07:39:35 yeah 07:39:43 I think I usually use utf-8 because i dump «spinäl t©p» sorts of things everywhere 07:39:49 ais523: Those things are not applicable to this program. Identifiers for macros are just one character and only ASCII, and string constants are only used in GD3 tags, which are UTF-16, so it accepts UTF-8 there and will convert them to UTF-16. 07:40:00 On Linux systems, stuff is usually UTF-8. 07:40:23 (to the point where I generally think you should just say "a string is in UTF-8. Period.") 07:40:32 i missed a discussion of CP 437 :( 07:40:34 And on Windows, Microsoft is fucking crazy. 07:40:35 In other programs with string constants such as in C, you should allow any characters, and just encode the bytes as is. So, if it is UTF-8, then your program will work with UTF-8. 07:40:38 also for console programs, windows gives you filenames etc in latin-1 07:40:48 madbr: Not quite. It's crazier. 07:40:52 pikhq: bush hid the facts 07:40:52 (well, codepage whatever but still) 07:40:54 pikhq: actually isn't "take encoding from locale" the usual default? and aren't most locales latin-n by default but people tend to use the utf-8 versions nowadays? 07:40:55 pikhq: I use CP437 when working on Linux. 07:41:23 -!- Gracenotes_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:41:25 what's worse than cp437 is that there's a different version that windows sometimes uses 07:41:32 madbr: Windows has a very comprehensive scheme for working with arbitrary charsets. They *refuse* to extend it to handle UTF-8. 07:41:39 which has no point except it screws up your DOS programs 07:41:43 Since the Linux console is only 256 character codes anyways, then Unicode is too much and is too complicated. 07:41:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:41:59 UTF-8 data can still be worked with though, in programs that are using UTF-8 data, but not in other programs, please. 07:42:02 madbr: The only way of using Unicode on Windows is to use their non-conformant wchar_t interfaces. 07:42:08 hmm… the Linux console understands the code for "enter UTF-8 mode" 07:42:12 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:42:13 can it not render it once you've done that? 07:42:17 Along with their ultra-weird UTF-16 entry point. 07:42:27 pikhq: and wchar_t isn't designed for utf-8 07:42:31 true 07:42:32 ais523: Almost all distros default to UTF-8 thought. 07:42:34 it's designed for utf-32, really 07:42:41 ais523: Yes, but on Windows it's UTF-16. 07:42:48 wide character strings are meant to be fixed-width 07:42:50 ais523: Yes, turn on UTF-8 but there is also the code to turn off the UTF-8. 07:42:53 utf-8 is multibyte character strings, instead 07:43:05 zzo38: that's so you don't end up stuck in utf-8 mode forever 07:43:08 also case sensitivity is based on a large LUT 07:43:09 ais523: The trick is, char* strings on Windows cannot be UTF-8. 07:43:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:43:19 that gets updated depending on your windows version 07:43:26 ais523: Yes, so you can switch depending on what programs you are using, then. 07:43:27 The entire OS only does legacy charsets that way. 07:43:31 Ever. 07:43:47 so two files that are different can become the same if the unicode char gets added to the table 07:43:51 really there should be a "utf8char" type 07:43:57 or mbchar 07:43:57 pikhq: That is, using the Windows API calls; using your own programs they can be whatever encoding you want to. 07:43:59 So, you have to rewrite your code to handle Unicode. 07:44:03 that represents one byte of a multibyte encoding 07:44:10 and you have to rewrite your code to handle Unicode /anyway/ 07:44:17 and even then it won't handle Turkish correctly 07:44:40 tbh in the tool I'm working on I just disallow anything over >128 07:44:44 Usually I don't handle Unicode or anything since instead I will just use ASCII, and depending what it is, using UTF-8 might still work with it, and possibly other encodings too. 07:44:48 what's wrong with turkish 07:44:55 madbr: What took are you working on? 07:44:56 bike: dotless i 07:44:56 Even though their API is set so the meaning of char* is determined by whatever charset is in use, and they actually have it ultra-mega-crazy to work with stuff like Shift-JIS. 07:45:06 Bike: it has capitalization rules that are inconsistent with other languages 07:45:09 oh that's a fun character 07:45:14 ais523: Yeah, but a lot of code will "just work" with UTF-8. 07:45:16 bike : also dotted capital I 07:45:27 Especially on Windows, where people actually use Shift-JIS in char* strings. 07:45:42 bike : essentially it uses dotless i to represent the same sound as japanese 'u' 07:45:45 pikhq: Yes, depending what it is you might not have to do anything special, so you can use UTF-8 or whatever if you want to. 07:45:57 pikhq: so what's the problem? NIH syndrome? 07:46:02 madbr: and that character isn't in unicode? 07:46:04 it seems like a weird thing to not support along with other encodings 07:46:06 ais523: I have not the foggiest clue. 07:46:10 fair enough 07:46:10 bike: no it's in unicode 07:46:21 bike: but that totally screws up capitalization 07:46:30 since the caps version of i isn't I anymore 07:46:39 But now, Windows dev communities are the most confused about how character encoding works. 07:46:47 baking capitalization into unicode seems like a bad idea anyway 07:46:51 And especially Unicode. 07:46:53 'It is considered particularly ironic that Atatürk himself, in his lengthy speech to the new Parliament in 1927, used a style of Ottoman which sounded so alien to later listeners that it had to be "translated" three times into modern Turkish: first in 1963, again in 1986, and most recently in 1995' 07:47:11 kmc: once for each coup AM I RIGHT FOLKS 07:47:11 Unicode is full of problems and too much complexity. 07:47:24 bike: you have to, because the win32 file system is case sensitive 07:47:25 btw, anyone know how that Cyrillic letter that looks like a backwards R is pronounced? I'm guessing neutral vowel, but could do with confirmation 07:47:38 bike: so you have to process case 07:47:44 ais523 : 'ya' 07:47:46 How worth it would it be to write an Apache Wave server in Haskell 07:47:49 Nevertheless simply allowing UTF-8 in some parts of the program just in order to convert to UTF-16 if the output format uses it, is not complicated. 07:47:53 madbr: hmm, OK 07:47:54 not worth anything 07:48:05 ais523 : the one that's neutral vowel looks like bI 07:48:09 (I'd say Microsoft's failure to support UTF-8 is the single greatest reason for people thinking Unicode is a 16-bit encoding) 07:48:18 how strong is the 'a'? I'm guessing short 'a', is it strong or is it reasonably neutral? 07:48:20 I seem to remember a natural language that used capital letters in its orthography, but I can't remember... 07:48:21 That is why VGMCK accepts UTF-8 in GD3 tags. 07:48:32 pikhq: that might well play into Microsoft's hands 07:48:36 ais523 : russian doesn't have vowel length 07:48:41 if they're attempting to have the web misencoded for some reason 07:48:44 ais523 : or strong vs weak vowels 07:48:50 madbr: hmm 07:48:56 so long a and short a are heard the same by a russian speaker? 07:49:07 russian has only normal a 07:49:16 (Text macros in VGMCK are named by a single ASCII character; any bytes >= 128 are not acceptable.) 07:49:16 ais523: This is a stupid legacy decision that predates things like "broadband Internet". 07:49:20 madbr: yeah but how does it correspond to English letters? 07:49:28 pikhq: doens't predate dial-up 07:49:30 *doesn't 07:49:36 uuuugh i'm groaning in sympathy for phonologists i know, guys 07:49:38 At least to me is reasonable like that. 07:49:40 ais523: They made this mistake way back in NT 3.1 days. 07:49:50 This actually predates commercial ISPs. 07:50:08 I think BBSes were older, weren't they? 07:50:25 but I don't really see how it matters 07:50:26 Yes, but they weren't Internet service providers. 07:50:30 ais523 : there are two sets of vowels, they call them "hard" vs "soft"... essentially normal vs y+vowel 07:51:04 madbr: yeah, basically my problem is, if I tried to pronounce Russian, would I be accidentally saying letters that didn't exist, or would what I said be perceived as a Russian letter whether it was English short a or English long a? 07:51:24 phonemes. phonemes that don't exist. 07:51:36 err, yes 07:51:50 I'm tired, OK :) 07:52:00 me too :( 07:52:13 like, Japanese doesn't have a separate "l" and "r", but the letters are separate in English 07:52:22 hard: А Э Ы О У = a e o u (a eh japanese-u o oo) 07:52:31 And in fact Japanese "r" is not the same vowel as either. 07:52:37 isn't japanese "r" more like "d" 07:52:43 pikhq: indeed 07:52:46 american english "d" I guess 07:52:49 Bike: No, but it sounds similarish. 07:52:50 god this is hard to talk about 07:53:04 but Japanese people will hear the two english letters the same, and thus they can be used interchangeably by an English speaker attempting to speak Japanese 07:53:11 they'll be understood equally well either way 07:53:12 Bike: ɾ is the IPA. 07:53:20 back in high school I spent like an hour trying to pronounce "akira" japanesely once 07:53:24 or equally badly 07:53:32 soft: Я Е И Ю (ya ye/yo yi yu) = "ya yeh/yo yee yoo" 07:53:35 * pikhq actually pronounces that sucker right 07:53:39 damn you. 07:53:43 i just want to talk about my animes! 07:53:47 Though my pitch accent is awful. 07:53:52 in dictionaries they spell yo as Ё I think 07:53:57 yeah i have no even idea on pitch accent 07:53:58 My friend's mom (who is a lawyer) told me that I should just take the job (40k) without any negotiation or complaints, because I need a job on my resume 07:54:05 Bike: What animes? 07:54:09 (my /actual/ problem is "I have some Cyrillic which I suspect is English words transliterated into Cyrillic, how do I attempt to deduce what the original English was?") 07:54:11 i sort of understand how chinese pitch works, i think, but japanese aaaaagh what 07:54:15 zzo38: the film, Akira. 07:54:21 Sgeo: 40k is more than I'm making 07:54:35 ais523, erm, in USD? 07:54:37 Bike: The trick with Japanese pitch accent is, it's not as firm as Chinese pitch at *all*. 07:54:38 ais523 : read them and figure out how close they are to US? 07:54:41 even in USD 07:54:44 o.O 07:54:48 unless the dollar is really low right now 07:54:50 pikhq: yeah, that probably doesn't help. 07:54:59 I'm hardly paid anything, although hopefully that'll change soon 07:55:03 It's like English stress. Saying it wrong sounds wrong, *but* each accent has their own "right" way. 07:55:14 pikhq: and saying it wrong is also entirely intelligible 07:55:15 pikhq: it seems like with chinese pitch is just part of the phoneme but with japanese... yeah, like that. 07:55:20 ais523: Exactly. 07:55:33 I have a really odd accent, a lot of people can barely understand me when I start taking quickly 07:55:33 well, nothing wrong with sounding like a robot for a while i guess 07:55:56 Perhaps because I drop loads of consonants so that "cone" and "coat" become almost homophones 07:56:10 speaking foreign languages isn't the same thing as sounding indistinguishable from a native 07:56:18 yeah 07:56:25 ais523: That's the ideal state. 07:56:29 if you're close enough, there's no ambiguity 07:56:33 It's just also damn near impossible to get. :P 07:56:42 pikhq: it's past the point of return on investment 07:57:09 * pikhq nods 07:57:10 even though you're saying one of the sounds wrong, it can't be another sound because it's not closer to the wrong sounds than to the right one 07:57:20 like when you're using the wrong kind of "t" 07:57:34 sounds wrong but you can't change a word into another one 07:57:38 well there are several sounds in English that don't exist in specific other languages 07:57:44 e.g. French doesn't have a "th" 07:57:52 yeah "th" is the main one 07:57:53 but that doesn't prevent native French speakers pronouncing English intelligibly 07:57:55 which 'th'? 07:58:00 both 07:58:01 Both. 07:58:01 Bike: either of them 07:58:04 dang 07:58:12 actually there are three in English 07:58:14 but two of them are quite similar 07:58:15 'th' is actually a fairly rare sound 07:58:22 ais: 3????? 07:58:30 ais523: Maybe in your accent. 07:58:30 I can't remember the examples offhand 07:58:40 2 certaintly but not 34 07:58:42 uh 07:58:44 2 certaintly but not 3 07:58:50 pikhq: hmm… I have a surprisingly average accent, actually 07:58:54 probably depends on accent 07:59:03 one of my parents came from London, the other from Sheffield, and I live in Birmingham 07:59:11 ais523: I'm American. :P 07:59:16 oh right 07:59:23 We've actually had some phoneme mergers. 07:59:39 the "rare" sounds english has are "th" and the distinction of tense vs lax vowels 07:59:41 personally I have an accent pretty close to TV midwestern but apparently there are differences too subtle for me 07:59:44 well London is pretty far south, and Sheffield is considered to be northerly unless you live in Hexham 07:59:58 (aka long-tense-diphthongs vs short-lax-vowels 08:00:01 Yeah, mine is Midwestern-ish. 08:00:03 (Hexham is further north than any sane person would live) 08:00:17 But then, I'm physically Midwestern-ish. 08:00:20 (unless they were Scottish, or Finnish, and have even further north people to compare to) 08:00:36 Stupid southeners thinking Sheffield is north... 08:00:41 ee/ih, ay/eh, ah/a, o/oh, oo/ooh, uh, er 08:00:49 Taneb: yeah 08:00:54 well it's north compared to Birmingham 08:00:55 also "er" is rare 08:01:02 (the english version) 08:01:03 I personally think of sheffield as being towards the south end of tnorth 08:01:05 *north 08:01:13 whereas london is towards the east end of south 08:01:16 It's further south than York! 08:01:17 ha, ha, i'm using a non-rhotic accent!!! 08:01:19 and the english version of "r" is rare (but "r" sounds in general are common) 08:01:27 And York's like 100 miles to the south of me! 08:01:31 Taneb: apparently londoners think of /birmingham/ as north 08:01:45 ais523, that's why nobody likes London 08:01:50 * shachaf keeps misreading "York" as "New York". 08:01:52 and possibly even oxford and milton keynes, but that would need verification 08:02:14 Not that I can think of any reason anyone would care about the old one. 08:02:29 shViewth: the old one has existe dlonger 08:02:30 also, v/w split isn't that common (a lot of languages have only 1 of these) 08:03:05 w is arguably a form of u 08:03:09 and the "zh" sound in stuff like pleasure, garage... isn't too common either 08:03:22 "shViewth"? 08:03:24 ais523 : depends on the language 08:03:37 shachaf: while typing that, my client also jumped to the top of the scrollback buffer 08:03:42 ais523 : in some languages is pretty much a fast vowel yes 08:03:48 In Latin, u/v/w is one letter, as is i/j/y 08:03:54 somehow, I cannot avoid underestimating Konversation's scope for bizarre typos 08:04:01 ais523 : but in a LOT of languages, including english, w is a consonant really 08:04:07 Taneb: y is a different letter in Greek loanwords 08:04:12 isn't it? 08:04:12 ais523, touche 08:04:14 and patterns with consonants 08:04:24 madbr: w is the consonant form of u 08:04:35 Taneb : I'm pretty sure y is another variant of u actually 08:04:37 just like y is the consonant form of i 08:04:42 and also f 08:04:42 or, hmm 08:04:59 f isn't a form of u, surely 08:04:59 no y is greek upsilon 08:05:11 f is from greek digamma 08:05:39 oh, I see 08:05:40 which is phonecian waw 08:05:48 The symbol comes from digamma, but it's closer to phi nowadays. 08:05:58 upsilon is also from phonecian waw 08:06:26 well, phi became English ph 08:06:32 -!- Taneb has set topic: #esoteric welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Channel is publicly logged. You can find the URL in the log.. 08:06:33 Nothing here 08:06:35 but ph and f are pronounced very similarly 08:06:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph%C3%B6nizisch-5Sprachen.svg chart 08:06:45 oonbotti responds to topic changes? 08:06:46 Taneb: Please consider whether you can answer your own question. 08:06:47 so latin had f u (digamma which disappeared from greek, and upsilon basically) 08:06:59 and then latin imported y for greek loanwords 08:07:06 so it ended up with f u y 08:07:08 Taneb: because it starts with a #. dumb huh 08:07:10 #hey 08:07:15 nno? ok. 08:07:21 #esoteric al 08:07:21 Nothing here 08:07:28 #esoteric Fueue 08:07:29 Nothing here 08:07:36 good bot 08:07:42 that's a weird error response 08:08:22 then in middle age they started making u pointy when starting words 08:08:39 well in Roman times it was always pointy 08:08:51 at least in uppercase 08:08:59 possibly because it was easier to engrave that way? 08:09:16 vvvvvv 08:09:16 roman only really had one u sound 08:09:28 so it didn't make sense to have two letters 08:10:31 but yeah in the middle age languages like french, italian and english had developed a separate v and j sound 08:11:02 so people ran with the shape variation and turned them into distinct letters 08:12:17 germans came up with a different solution to that problem 08:12:22 which is why we now have w 08:12:59 although english w != german w 08:13:04 *≠ 08:14:18 in english, w apparently was a replacement for wynn 08:15:46 anyways, long story short, western european languages have lots of labial sounds 08:16:07 which is why waw has been split into 5 different variants :D 08:17:42 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: ie ie ie ie ie). 08:21:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:26:16 I would like to put my weight behind Underload as featured language 08:29:09 Taneb: the problem is that elliott's no good at writing featured language blurbs 08:29:13 and he won't let me write one for my own language 08:29:18 so someone else has to 08:29:29 It's time to OPEN A TEXT EDITOR 08:30:37 ais523, was Underload inspired by Muriel? 08:36:02 no, it was inspired by Overload 08:36:11 which wasn't really inspired by anything 08:36:14 Underload is a stack-based esoteric programming language invented by ais523. It is effectively a functional language, as the only available form of flow control moves data from the data stack into the program. Due to its simplicity, among other factors, it has been useful in proving other languages (such as Thutu and FALSE) Turing-complete. 08:36:29 how long is that compared to the existing blurbs? 08:36:48 57 words 08:36:57 pikhq: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_summary.html has per-day number-of-messages/characters for individual people. 08:37:02 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:37:11 Quite short, actually 08:37:17 oh yeah I did a stack based functional language too back in the day 08:37:18 (Hasn't been updated in the last week or two, must do that.) 08:37:26 Malbolge's is 99 words 08:38:05 Although Malbolge's is the longest 08:38:33 (There's also all other kind of graphs there.) 08:38:41 mine was called tabarnac 08:39:15 ais523, did you ever decide if Trustfuck is a metacircular compiler? 08:39:21 no 08:39:37 Taneb: I'm thinking in terms of visual width, rather than words 08:39:59 Yeah, it's quite short 08:40:18 (Updated.) 08:41:23 My head hurts from the mathematical stupidity 08:41:28 http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/19jqan/is_pi_proof_of_continuous_space/c8ou5gj?context=3 08:41:47 My throat hurts for reasons I know not 08:42:01 "A rational number is not necessarily an integer. 3.14 is rational, 3.14 recurring is not. A rational number is one that can be subjected to an expression and give a sane answer. Demonstration: 3.14/5.69 = 17.8666. Both sides of the equation have sane numbers, and are therefore rational." 08:42:19 The first sentence is okay 08:42:25 And the first clause of the second sentence 08:42:29 After that... 08:45:51 http://sprunge.us/NBXA wordnet concurs that rational $\approx$ sane. 08:46:24 I like to call them demythologized numbers, though. 08:46:28 It has more flair. 08:48:06 I replied 08:48:20 @tell Bike But that's not equivalent at ALL! 08:48:20 Consider it noted. 08:48:29 (I thought it needed more emphasis.) 08:49:37 I just realized that the phrase "3.14 recurring" is ambiguous 08:49:48 Is it 3.141414141414... or 3.1444444444444... 08:50:04 Or 3.14314314314314314314... 08:50:24 Or 3.14.14.14.14.14.14... 08:50:47 Taneb's option doesn't make any sense, though. 08:51:23 My option makes perfect sense when you remember that the person who said "3.14 recurring" is an idiot 08:51:57 3.143.143.143.143.14... makes a lot more sense 08:52:09 (who's the idiot now, huh?) 08:55:28 In other news, there is evidence suggesting Snoop whatever animal he is now reads Homestuck 08:55:47 3.141.3.141.3.141.3.14... maybe it goes back and forth. 08:56:29 Taneb : as long as it's not mlp :D 08:57:08 madbr, nothing wrong with mlp. At least one person in this channel watches mlp. 08:57:54 And it isn't me! 09:00:33 my brother watches mlp :D 09:00:50 Nothing wrong with Snoop Dogg either 09:00:51 was saying it jokingly, I can't really criticize tbh 09:01:22 there was this "smoke weed every day" meme not too long ago 09:01:30 I think it's dead now though 09:01:34 "At least one person in this channel does X" != "nothing wrong with X". (In general, not just about the Window System.) 09:02:56 fizzie, those statements were only loosely related 09:03:08 yeah I'd be the biggest hypocrite if I really tarred on mlp stuff 09:04:43 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:05:55 There is the music in Famicompo with "smoke weed every day", I don't really like that one much. 09:07:42 the one I made? :D 09:08:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:09:53 Yes. I do like your other musics though. 09:10:23 made a really nice song recentily -> http://madbrain.devzero.co.uk/Discohouse_Amargeddon.mp3 09:11:01 SMOKE WEED EVERYDAY 09:11:20 It will never die in kmc's heart. 09:11:40 isn't snoop dogg named snoop lion now 09:11:48 My flight leaves SFO at ~06:00 on Wednesday. 09:11:49 Maybe 09:11:50 yeah and I think he's doing reggae 09:11:51 kmc: Why? 09:11:55 His facebook page isn't 09:11:56 just a true fact 09:12:04 Caltrain doesn't go there that early. 09:12:13 Perhaps the best thing to do would be to go the evening before. 09:12:28 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:12:32 seems like 09:12:49 if you want to get to the airport at 04:30 or 05:00 09:12:55 where are you going from SFO? 09:13:33 LGA via MDW 09:13:50 madbr, that's some pretty good music 09:13:57 thanks :3 09:15:17 -!- HackEgo has joined. 09:15:45 taneb : do you compose too? :3 09:15:52 Nah 09:15:55 I know some people in here do 09:16:01 I've got no musical talent 09:16:04 Not that I don't try 09:16:42 I sometimes music. 09:16:52 Not a lot. 09:17:24 I did enter Famicompo Mini vol.9 09:18:19 one time i went to the bucharest airport in the middle of the night and then slept on top of my bags until i could check in 09:18:22 I do write computer programs for dealing with music, such as VGMCK which is what I am working on now. 09:18:31 kmc: Is it permitted? 09:18:37 not sure 09:18:47 kmc: Evidently the universe permitted it to happen. 09:18:51 Er, s/kmc/zzo38/ 09:18:59 zzo38 : right... I think... gregg does music too right? 09:19:00 Well, yes, the laws of physics permit. 09:19:16 That is not quite how I meant 09:19:19 madbr: gregg? 09:19:24 gregor 09:19:32 Gregor? Yes, I think so. 09:20:00 I don't know if he has done it in Lilypond or whatever, I am not sure 09:20:19 does vgmck let you use samples for instruments 09:20:23 or is it just synthesis? 09:21:01 madbr: VGMCK lets you use the chips in the VGM format, so some chips let you use samples for instruments. Currently the only chip that does that that I have implemented in VGMCK is QSound, although there are others which I have just not implemented yet. 09:21:17 how many channels does qsound have again 09:21:21 Sixteen 09:21:43 you could probably do something close to the mp3 I linked to then 09:22:05 though it has a bit of reverb added on and it has more like 32 channels 09:23:34 OPL4 has both FM and samples, and it has more channels, so that can be used too. In addition, any chips can be combined other than SN76489 with T6W28. 09:23:37 goes up to 40 at times (counting "virtual channels") 09:24:05 yeah opl4 is cheating too :D 09:24:20 C# 4.0 has named parameters :) 09:24:25 In addition, most (but not all) chips can be doubled. 09:24:27 Although it still has ref arguments :/ 09:24:35 is the 4op mode supported on opl4? 09:24:43 Sgeo: What has it named them? 09:25:49 VGMCK does not currently support OPL4 at all, but I intend to support all the VGM chips, so when it does support OPL4, it will support 4-op mode too. 09:26:01 do you know any good tutorials for the so called lisp syntax assembly used in PARRY? 09:26:48 I know someone called Parry 09:27:11 madbr: Do you know the .VGM format? VGMCK compiles into VGM, so you will need a VGM player to play or convert it. 09:27:37 only ever used it for... genesis playback I think 09:27:55 since that's the platform that has games with interesting soundtracks anyways 09:28:04 that and snes but snes has spc 09:28:08 and nes has nsf 09:28:53 Well, VGM has a lot of chips (although it does omit some of the NSF chips, but they may be included in later versions): http://www.smspower.org/Music/VGMFileFormat 09:29:28 VGMCK currently supports the following chips: SN76489, T6W28, YM2413, YM2612, YM3812, NES APU, GameBoy, HuC6280, Pokey, QSound. 09:29:43 I am currently working on adding AY8910. 09:30:53 Here is a list of programs which can be used to create VGM: http://vgm.mdscene.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107 09:31:50 so it lets you write for strange mixes of weird chips 09:32:11 (As far as I can tell, DefleMask allows to use only one chip at a time (from the documentation on their webpage), and I don't think XPMCK allows using more than one chip at a time either but I am not sure.) 09:32:37 Aww, now I'm writing music 09:33:00 madbr: Yes; VGMCK is meant to eventually implement all the VGM and VGM does allow using various mixes of chips. 09:33:26 does it let you do stuff like vibratos or do you have to do those with macros like other mck things 09:33:57 madbr: You have to do those with macros, unless the chip supports hardware vibrato in which case you can use that. 09:34:44 oh hm 09:36:13 If you want a tracker format for VGM, DefleMask is probably best (not open source, but available for Windows/Mac OS X/Linux), although it is not as powerful as VGMCK, but depending on what you are doing it might work. If you prefer MIDI editors, you can use that too and convert, but those do even less. 09:37:41 * madbr looks up deflemask 09:37:47 looks strange 09:38:57 hopefully it's less broken than TFM music maker/tracker :D 09:39:26 -!- nooga has joined. 09:42:12 TFM music maker is broken? 09:42:16 yes 09:43:03 it does everything wrong 09:43:39 Well, now I know, so if anyone asks, I can tell them. 09:51:40 If one'd extend a PDA with registers 09:52:06 Is there an amount of registers < Infinity to make it tc 10:18:48 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:19:43 mroman_: you need an infinite amount of storage in the registers 10:19:53 although you can do that with a finite number of registers, if they're infinitely large registers 10:20:52 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 10:21:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:22:00 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:31:40 huh, Condorcet was a marquis 10:34:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:39:55 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:48:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:53:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:53:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 10:53:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:56:20 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:05:50 -!- banana_pee has changed nick to nick_exile. 11:06:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:14:07 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:16:51 Does lambdabot do rewrite rules? 11:20:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:21:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:24:50 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:27:16 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:40:46 -!- nooga has joined. 11:58:15 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 11:59:11 -!- carado has joined. 12:00:05 -!- nick_exile has quit (Quit: ragequit). 12:00:39 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 12:02:35 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:03:13 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 12:05:09 -!- sirdancealo3 has joined. 12:05:24 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:05:24 -!- sirdancealo3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:05:44 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 12:10:33 -!- nooodl has joined. 12:16:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:22:32 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 12:22:49 Does C even support const structs? 12:23:11 C89 that is. 12:24:51 const Foo bar = mkFoo(); is obviously not allowed. 12:25:55 Is {.x 12:26:02 C89? 12:27:53 .x ? as in, struct foo f = { .x = .., .y = .., }; ? 12:28:02 then no, that is C99 12:28:20 designated initializers 12:29:52 c00kiemon5ter: Yeah. 12:30:37 f = {1,2}; should be legale C89 though. 12:30:42 *legal 12:31:12 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:33:14 -!- carado_ has joined. 12:35:56 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:05:58 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 13:06:05 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:07:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:07:25 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 13:07:25 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:07:56 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:07:59 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:08:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:08:57 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 13:09:04 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:09:06 mroman_, you can't declare the value of y in C89 for union { int x; float y; } though in that manner, due to the lack of the dot-syntax 13:09:07 Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 13:09:14 @messages 13:09:15 oerjan said 14d 3h 46m 31s ago: also my PS3 controller on my desk random came to life and blinked the 4 LEDS a couple of times <-- probably just the google cloud trying to print 13:09:20 uh 13:09:24 I got that days ago already 13:09:29 why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? 13:09:34 Vorpal: My internet research tells me that I can use {foo,bar}; if used in the right order. 13:09:54 mroman_, for a struct, yes obviously 13:09:59 not for an union though 13:10:15 anyway, C89 is obsolete, C99 and C11 are the currently used ones pretty much 13:10:31 apart from MSVC there isn't much of importance that doesn't do C99 at least 13:11:40 C89 doesn't have function prototypes 13:11:41 what the 13:11:47 uh it does 13:11:51 K&R C does 13:12:05 mroman_, I suggest using a more reliable source than what you are currently using 13:12:14 Yeah. 13:12:23 The first time wikipedia is completely wrong. 13:12:46 there is your problem, using wikipedia as a source 13:13:24 Meh. It's gve or take. 13:13:29 *give 13:17:29 mroman_, are you trying to learn C? 13:18:46 No 13:18:49 I know C. 13:18:58 I just don't know which versions of C I know :) 13:19:00 ah 13:19:41 Which means that I know the C gcc compiles without any specific version options 13:19:54 I just don't know which features are available in what versions. 13:20:33 I always use -std=c99 -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L 13:20:48 should probably move to the next version of POSIX soon 13:20:54 after all it was released in 2008 13:22:43 but for my compiler I decided to target C89 13:23:12 you are writing a C compiler? 13:23:13 ouch 13:23:48 C89 is great, it has no features and everything is broken 13:24:21 Vorpal: No 13:24:29 oh? 13:24:37 I meant I compile my language to C89. 13:24:40 olsner, that is like all versions of C, more or less 13:25:20 C99 is pretty sane, I think 13:25:27 C11 support is not far I assumed. 13:25:43 and some microsoft products apparentely don't even support C99 fully compliant. 13:26:14 iirc, microsoft explicitly unsupports all of c99 13:26:20 so I figured C89'd be best so people can use any c89 compliant compiler for the backend 13:26:48 (except if c99 accidentally standardized some microsoft extensions, I guess) 13:26:50 C99 is pretty sane, I think <-- really? Files but no directories? No threads? gets still around? 13:27:02 I haven't really looked at C11 though 13:28:24 I count threading and i/o as mostly outside the language (but threading less so, since the behavior of variables with threads is sort of important) 13:40:56 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:43:56 olsner, hm 13:44:20 does anything support C11 yet? 13:45:19 wait wtf 13:45:29 since when was tom hanks directing an american gods tv series 13:45:46 never, apparently, since he's producing it 13:48:31 mroman_, C11 is at least partially supported (according to wikipedia.....): GCC starting with version 4.6,[5] Clang starting with version 3.1,[6] and IBM XL C starting with version 12.1[7] support some features from C11. 13:52:15 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:54:45 -!- aloril has joined. 13:57:04 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 13:59:20 -!- dessos has joined. 13:59:25 -!- epicmonkey_ has joined. 13:59:25 -!- dessos_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:01:27 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (*.net *.split). 14:01:27 -!- epicmonkey has quit (*.net *.split). 14:01:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 14:01:27 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split). 14:11:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:12:08 The vocab list that OCR publishes for A-level latin is inconsistent 14:12:32 Unless there's a big difference between "verb semi-dep" and "verb semi-dep." 14:12:50 And "verb 2 semi-dep" and "verb 2 semidep" 14:13:28 Sure there is. 14:13:39 semi-dep means it's half dep, semi-dep. means it's half deponent. 14:16:00 -!- mekeor has joined. 14:17:31 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:23:12 The function `") {"' is applied to three arguments, 14:23:14 o_O 14:28:28 "Demonstrating music tech is difficult, because it seems to be impossible to listen to demos without making aesthetic judgements. The below is not meant to be good music, but if you find yourself enjoying any of it, please think sad thoughts. If you find yourself reacting badly to the broken rhythms, try humming a favourite tune over the top." 14:38:51 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 14:45:27 -!- Sanky has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:46:21 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:47:30 -!- Sanky has joined. 14:50:30 can ghci tell me which pattern does not exist? 14:55:10 nvm. found the bug. 14:55:23 -Wall 14:56:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:05:14 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:09:03 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:09:36 -!- wareya has joined. 15:12:04 http://codepad.org/Gy729Qol 15:12:07 ^- well.. 15:12:19 The "bootstrap" compiler works :) 15:47:16 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 15:47:21 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 15:47:21 -!- quintopia has joined. 15:48:31 hi 15:53:44 somehow github only show the first 54 lines o_O 15:54:48 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 15:58:13 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 16:09:37 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 16:09:56 > lines "foo\r\n" 16:09:58 ["foo\r"] 16:10:04 That sucks. 16:10:11 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:16:42 Because most people who use Haskell do so on Linux 16:16:49 um... 16:17:01 for a start spj uses windows 16:17:13 for a second i'm pretty sure haskell does the C normalisation thing whereby you get "\n" on any platform, though don't quote me on that 16:17:19 Is spj most people? 16:17:24 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:17:25 Yes 16:25:01 -!- Bike has joined. 16:28:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:28:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 16:28:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:30:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:34:18 I use windows. 16:35:51 Get Linux 16:36:01 I mean, I'm sorry to hear that 16:36:19 -!- epicmonkey_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:36:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 16:37:07 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:37:07 os/2 is the future 16:37:07 Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 16:37:11 whoa 16:37:48 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 16:38:04 -!- Frooxius has joined. 17:06:44 \o/ 17:07:00 I can compile a hello world program. Not much. It's something :) 17:10:51 What language what system? 17:11:46 http://codepad.org/tmyU8LMO 17:12:46 I don't recognize that language 17:12:56 You can't. 17:13:05 It didn't exist two months ago :) 17:14:13 I'm creating a non-esoteric programming language for a change. 17:14:40 (which I compile to C) 17:16:44 https://raw.github.com/FMNSSun/mopl/master/mopl/hw.c <- that's the output file 17:18:13 ({{ ... }} is inline C) 17:20:21 It's very simple actually. 17:20:32 Just some hacked together ~200 lines of Haskellcode 17:20:49 ok.maybe 400 lines. 17:24:15 well 17:24:24 the ultimate goal is to write a mopl compiler in mopl 17:37:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:37:17 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 17:44:05 -!- daniela has joined. 17:56:05 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:03:19 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:03:20 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit). 18:03:40 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:57:48 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host). 18:57:48 -!- tswett has joined. 19:07:59 maybe Haskell should have a library like Python's ctypes 19:08:59 dynamically loaded, dynamically typed FFI bindings 19:13:16 How does that work? Loading a .so or .dll file? 19:13:54 yes 19:14:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:15:06 How would dynamically typed FFI bindings work though? 19:16:16 ctypes.CDLL('libc.so.6').printf("Hello, world!\n") 19:16:23 that's how it works in Python 19:16:58 well with the standard Haskell FFI, there's no check that the type you declared for a C function matches the type it was compiled with 19:17:05 so we just move the not checking to runtime instead of compile time :) 19:17:07 O, OK, I suppose in a programming language such as Python (or other dynamically typed programming languages, such as JavaScript) would make sense like that. 19:17:42 loadLibrary :: String -> IO Lib; invoke :: Lib -> String -> [CArgument] -> CResult 19:17:47 What I would like to have is dynamically loaded Haskell programs using a type such as: Typeable x => FilePath -> IO x 19:18:04 'plugins' is supposed to do that 19:18:07 kmc: Yes I suppose that could be the way. 19:18:19 or hint or mueval or all these others that i can't keep track fo 19:18:41 kmc: you could do an awful pritnf-style hack for nice syntax 19:18:44 i think CArgument and CResult are sort of dual there 19:18:54 however I don't see how this is really better than the existing FFI 19:18:59 after all you can already import dlopen/dlsym and it works fine afaik 19:19:08 I think something like that is done for objective-c bidnings 19:19:21 CArgument is just a sum of all the C types, but CResult is a thing which, you tell it what type the result should be and it converts 19:19:33 With my idea basically the .so or .dll contains a Haskell value of type x, so it could be a record type, or it could be a IO action in which case you will want to join the result if you want to execute it right away. 19:19:44 i find ctypes to be slightly more convenient than Haskell's FFI and i'm trying to figure out why 19:20:17 it's probably not a big difference though 19:20:49 well I think it is convenient in Python because C APIs are close to what you'd actually use day-to-day in Python :p 19:20:59 (this is basically a complaint about python) 19:21:03 heh 19:21:11 kmc: While the loadLibrary and invoke could possibly do it, it seems like example you gave is things that would work better in other programming languages such as Python, Perl, JavaScript, and so on. 19:21:33 hm my mersenne twister in Python is only 4 times slower than the reference implementation 19:22:36 elliott: i think it's just that you're probably doing some type-munging around the C call anyway, so doing that *and* declaring the type in a 'foreign import' declaration seems like boilerplate 19:22:53 right 19:23:04 you could do some typeclass hackery like I said. it'd be slow runtime though :( 19:23:05 At least I think in JavaScript you could have it work with the same code as the example with Python, even. 19:23:09 yeah 19:23:10 have you used hsc2hs/c2hs 19:23:13 you might find those more convenient 19:23:17 yeah i used hsc2hs 19:23:18 it's all right 19:23:25 hdis86 uses it 19:23:28 c2hs is more elaborate fwiw 19:23:32 yeah 19:23:36 i read ezyang's blog posts about it 19:23:55 i wrote that library on fung wah bus 19:24:54 -!- daniela has left. 19:25:27 kmc: Now write it in befunge 19:31:18 mersenne twister? 19:33:15 mersenne twister shaped like a twister 19:34:00 rhymes that blister like mersenne twister 19:39:41 -!- mekeor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:42:04 Preach it, sister 19:49:01 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:12:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:14:03 theory: it is substantially easier for something to be awesome if it has no purpose other than awesomeness 20:14:09 ais523: I would imagine the opposite. 20:14:23 i submit this is one of those Great Truths 20:14:46 the former or the latter? 20:14:57 The two lines as a whole, of course 20:15:00 ...i see you don't know what a Great Truth is. 20:15:10 I clearly do not! 20:15:15 Please explain 20:15:25 it's a truth such that its opposite is also a Great Truth 20:16:01 i see oerjan is a dialetheist 20:16:26 ah Niels Bohr was the origin of that 20:16:35 * oerjan tried Piet Hein first 20:16:48 (also a dane with a penchant for great truths) 20:18:15 hm i don't trust that quote site to have the correct wording... 20:18:30 * oerjan tries wikiquote instead 20:18:35 oerjan: Your definition of "Great Truth" sounds like a recursive definition without an edge condition 20:19:04 "Two sorts of truth: profound truths 
recognized by the fact that the opposite is also a profound truth,
 in contrast to trivialities where opposites are obviously absurd." 20:19:09 it's an old quote 20:19:30 a nice one 20:19:42 (that's the wikiquote version which actually is cited) 20:20:53 Yes I have seen that before 20:21:00 so do we also have an actual list of Great Truth? 20:21:05 *Truths 20:21:16 i'm not sure you're quite on the wavelength of the idea here 20:22:03 AnotherTest: i guess you need to take the corecursive interpretation (i.e. maximal possible set) in that case. 20:22:15 since the minimal one, by what you say, would be empty. 20:23:36 Oh, like, the universal set? 20:23:38 If any Great Truth are logical then you need to use different kinds of logic. 20:23:46 youo're not supposed to have a list, it's just supposed to be an insult, what the hell 20:23:55 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:24:31 zzo38: p <=> not p is definitely not true indeed 20:24:34 -!- nooodl has joined. 20:25:17 can unknown be equivalent to not unknown even? 20:25:28 (ternary logic then) 20:25:56 i thought ¬u = u was a given of that logic 20:26:35 AnotherTest: no, not the universal set, it doesn't not include falsities or their opposite 20:26:40 oops 20:26:42 *-not 20:27:03 (maybe that was still correct on account on being a great truth) 20:29:12 i think to understand great truths, you first have to understand that logic has its limitations. 20:29:37 and not just to understand that they exist, but to understand a particular one. 20:29:59 also how can i say that when i still haven't thought of an example. 20:30:00 At least I know that logic has limitations. 20:30:16 Isn't it like a great truth that great truths are /really/ great truths? 20:30:30 But there is different kind of logic, in order to make some things that works in some cases. 20:30:42 maybe zen koans 20:30:45 hande hoch! 20:31:07 but since niels bohr was involved, probably also something quantum 20:31:08 But a kind of logic can be mathematically logical even if it doesn't apply to actual situations normally. 20:31:15 nooga: wie so? 20:31:34 oerjan: Yes, perhaps Zen koans would be called great truth by such definition, possibly. 20:31:43 oerjan: you just need to use a paraconsistent logic 20:32:07 what is the truth value of cutting off your disciple's arm 20:32:36 oerjan: Quantun? I guess so, although it still isn't applicable to measured (collapsed) states, I suppose, even though it is in general, possibly? 20:32:39 das ist ein internationale skandal! 20:32:46 Bike: Forty-two! 20:32:53 humorous 20:32:54 But only if you don't do it. 20:33:19 Bike: Mu. see: [Parachattavadhari 451, page 701] 20:33:52 Is that gobbledygook that's supposed to look like Sanskrit? 20:34:25 wtf i keep being logged out of wikipedia 20:34:26 I do know one word in Sanskrit, at least. 20:34:37 maybe this is related to that oots issue 20:34:55 Does the cookie expire? 20:35:32 i have ticked the usual "remember for 180 days" mark 20:36:04 Did you try editing the cookie? I have found that for some webpages it won't work properly unless the cookie is edited. 20:36:05 Bike: MAYBE 20:36:17 Do you even know how to write Sanskrit? 20:36:24 no. 20:37:15 i just have some vague idea about the phonology and maybe a handful of words. 20:37:27 Wouldn't Zen be in Japanese or Chinese anyway 20:37:32 ok maybe not _that_ vague 20:37:53 "Ayanamsha" is Sanskrit words for amount of precession of equinoxes. 20:37:54 Bike: japanese, i think the chinese is slightly different 20:38:21 zzo38: didn't you mention that before, or was that another astronomy word 20:38:26 like, gateless gate is in chinese isn't it 20:38:40 oerjan: I don't know. Probably I did. 20:38:46 There's one of them in Hexham 20:38:54 A gateless gate 20:38:58 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:39:03 But I don't know if any astronomers use such words unless they are Sanskrit or astrologers. 20:39:17 (or both) 20:39:39 How would an astronomer be Sanskrit? 20:40:29 I don't know; I am not Sanskrit. 20:40:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:40:37 the subjects weren't different back then 20:40:42 I mean, it's not an ethnicity 20:41:11 Bike: O, OK, then. 20:41:26 I mean, if they speak/write Sanskrit then they might use such words. 20:41:52 That would be like doing astronomy in latin. (Which sounds amusing) 20:41:55 ok at least closing and reopening the browser didn't lose the login. maybe it was connected to how my hibernation image was broken... 20:42:21 or that it's somehow kept different for http and https 20:42:48 Latin is the language of Vatican. 20:42:58 THERE IS NO POPE OMG 20:43:02 WTFBBQ 20:43:12 There is still Vatican, even if there is currently no pope. 20:43:20 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:43:24 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:46:17 so why did vatican delete all benedict's tweets 20:46:36 papal fallibility 20:47:04 but they're archived!! 20:47:53 archivandi in gloria aeternis 20:48:03 Maybe it is because it was the Vatican's account and not the pope's own account? 20:48:11 Is that why? 20:48:33 imagining the pope having a personal twitter account now 20:48:42 for all his non-catholic church related doings(???) 20:49:05 read 'church related dongs' 20:49:30 ratzinger's zingers, an account devoted entirely to cheesy insults 20:49:49 Even if he has a Twitter account which does have stuff about the Catholic Church, then, if it is his own account then they should not delete it. If it is belonging to the Vatican, then they have the right to delete it. Isn't it? 20:49:55 kmc: insert predictable joke re: catholic church 20:51:07 joke manipulator arm now online. please clear a 500m standard safety area around joke insertion slot. commencing insertion... 20:51:54 It is probably farther away than that from my computer. 20:52:09 you're probably going to get a concussion then 20:54:31 Well, I don't know where it even is (or even whether or not you made such a thing), so it won't help anyways. 20:55:21 tell that to your concussion 20:57:12 -!- Zerker has joined. 20:57:33 Does any Famicom emulator be able to read the host system's battery function to set the FDS battery low bits? 21:00:33 i should have followed up with "i guess that's more a tumblr thing" 21:00:44 but i was already in the shower by the time I thought of this witty remark :/ 21:02:50 `addquote kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences 21:03:00 978) kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences 21:03:15 -!- nooga has joined. 21:05:02 wait where does the remark go in context 21:06:07 evolveing a program to to give me the nth digit of the thule-morse sequence when given the binary representation of n is very hard if I only allow it to use nand gates 21:06:09 for all his non-catholic church related doings(???) <-- uh, what does that consist of? 21:06:14 Vorpal: (???) 21:06:22 elliott, ah, of course 21:07:17 elliott, but more seriously is he known for having some side interests at all? 21:07:29 Maybe, uh, catching butterflies or something+ 21:07:33 s/+/?/ 21:07:39 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:07:51 surely he must, as a person, have some hobbies 21:09:27 i don't think you quite understand how churches work 21:10:10 elliott, that is probably true 21:13:08 * oerjan swats Taneb for converting `? ais523 from utf-8 to latin-1 21:13:25 `? ais523 21:13:26 Agent "I" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 21:13:33 * + -----### 21:14:00 What would Chaotic Evil ais523 look like? 21:14:19 kind of person who knocks over unattended cups i'd wager 21:15:18 hm my browser's autocomplete database has reset too 21:15:49 `url 21:15:51 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 21:16:50 `run echo "Agent \"Iä\" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good." > wisdom/ais523 21:17:00 No output. 21:18:01 * oerjan swats Taneb for converting `? ais523 from utf-8 to latin-1 <-- why would he do such a crime 21:18:30 Vorpal: presumably by cutting and pasting in his irc client with a bad charset setting 21:18:36 ah 21:18:48 what a heinous crime indeed 21:19:00 `? ais523 21:19:02 Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 21:19:44 surely he must, as a person, have some hobbies <-- istr he plays the piano? 21:20:32 oerjan, Ah 21:20:42 could microblog on twitter about the piano 21:20:59 What would Chaotic Evil ais523 look like? <-- he would actually _succeed_ in retroactively unevolving avian body covering, although at terrible cost. 21:21:39 why specifically on the 3rd of March? 21:21:49 hasn't ais been basically lawful good forever 21:22:05 23:29:10 hmm… today seems to be the ais523 "have I mentioned I'm lawful good yet" day 21:22:08 23:29:17 3 march, I must remember that 21:22:26 Taneb _may_ have slightly misinterpreted. 21:22:53 ah 21:23:03 How would ais523 react if stuck in a Lawful Evil area? 21:23:09 oerjan, yeah I remember we established his alignment long ago 21:23:11 Where Lawful contradicts Good 21:23:37 Sgeo, he would obviously not be ais any longer 21:23:41 he sputters out and then starts shouting about diathelism 21:25:50 http://chaospet.com/2007/11/29/62-dialetheism/ 21:26:05 yes i can't spell WHAT OF IT 21:26:20 imo i'm a dialatheist 21:26:26 I believe god exists AND doesn't exist 21:26:30 Bike, didn't even notice 21:26:51 that comic is pretty sophistic but what else is new 21:27:03 Although.... I guess that's why Google only turned up the comic 21:27:12 Weird though, since the comic spelled it correctly 21:27:17 i think graham priest is the usual go-to guy 21:27:27 he's the high priest of dialatheism 21:27:28 No it didn't 21:27:49 http://chaospet.com/2009/06/15/128-more-dialetheism/ (the link I originally saw) contains BIke's misspelling 21:27:50 "In addition to his work in philosophy and logic, Priest practices Karate-do. He is 3rd Dan, International Karate-do Shobukai; 4th Dan, Shi’to Ryu, and an Australian National Kumite Referee and Kata Judge." 21:28:25 I seriously thought that the whole diathelism thing was a reference to that comic. 21:28:37 i've never seen that comic before and it looks bad 21:28:56 Blame Google. 21:29:02 f u google 21:29:02 And yourself for misspelling. 21:29:07 f u bike 21:29:12 fugle 21:32:15 Bluh. What's that really famous song, I think it's a Kraftwerk song, that's ohwoahohwoahoh 21:32:28 um 21:32:40 oh yeah, and it goes like, doooOOOooooOOOOOoo? 21:32:57 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101093149AAhTBGF 21:32:59 duh, duh duh duh duh, duh duh, duh duh duh duh duh duh DUH, duh DUH 21:33:05 i googled: oh woah kraftwerk 21:33:27 elliott: i refuse to believe that works 21:33:33 sgeo listen to that song so you can say it's not it 21:33:40 it links to several tracks in fact 21:33:43 one of them is even by kraftwerk 21:34:31 The beginning is unfamiliar, but I think it's the song 21:34:38 Where TF did I get "kraftwerk" from? 21:34:38 Fuck. 21:34:41 `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'tr A-Z U | tr a-z u') > bin/uuu; chmod a+x bin/uuu 21:34:46 No output. 21:34:51 `run welcome | uuu 21:34:53 Uuuuuuu uu uuu uuuuuuuuuuuuu uuu uuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuu uuu uuuuuuuuuu! Uuu uuuu uuuuuuuuuuu, uuuuu uuu uuu uuuu: uuuu://uuuuuuuu.uuu/uuuu/Uuuu_Uuuu. (Uuu uuu uuuuu uuuu uu uuuuuuuuu, uuu #uuuuuuuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.) 21:34:58 didnt you know every piece of electronic music is by kraftwerk 21:35:03 that's a science fact™ 21:35:10 also they invented robots 21:35:30 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:35:37 Trivia: there are actually robots in the Illiad 21:35:45 I think I only thought I knew Kraftwerk in relation to that song, which isn't actually a Kraftwerk song 21:35:51 The ones on the island with the labyrinth? 21:35:55 Except, hmm 21:36:05 I don't actually hear the vocals in this version 21:36:08 wir fahren fahren fahren auf der autobahn 21:36:12 did i spell that right 21:36:21 faßren 21:36:24 fuck you 21:36:25 hth 21:36:31 :( 21:36:48 Bike, if it helps, this might be the wrong version of the basic concept of the song 21:36:57 the wrong version of the basic concept of the song... 21:36:59 no, it's too late 21:37:17 anyway if it is "Kernkraft 400" i have a guess why you related it to kraftwerk 21:37:18 the guess is "kraft" 21:37:29 Ohohohoh ohoh.song 21:37:29 that is what is is called on limewire 21:37:29 Source(s): 21:37:29 Hockey songs --- limewire 21:37:50 why don't you listen to some REAL german electronica http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6zb8YpL5-w 21:38:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsorGbKwNlA#t=22s 21:38:34 I don't hear any actual oh woah ing in here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSJQLCImV18 21:38:54 Electronic sounds are doing the same melody that oh'ing should be 21:39:04 maybe you listened to a choir singing it 21:39:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=?v=XPoiPZYbtnA#t=75s Sgeo 21:39:48 elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fwjZFLmrpE i have no idea why it's real but it is 21:39:53 bjornsuper 6 dagen geleden 21:39:53 0 to 1.15 complet shit rest of the song annihilates 21:40:01 thanks for the review, bjornsuper 21:40:22 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:40:28 nooodl, yes 21:40:53 oops i messed up that link 21:40:56 did you find it anyway 21:40:58 Bike: is this from that album 21:41:01 ohhh 21:41:02 it's that thing 21:41:05 yes, I deleted feature=? 21:41:06 heheh 21:41:11 yeah it's from that one album of that one thing you got it 21:41:19 i think that is actually from an ep actually 21:41:29 but what i meant was uh 21:41:42 god dammit go faster browser 21:41:48 im going to die 21:42:45 also good: vocal guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Asi870JpI 21:42:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustica:_Alarm_Will_Sound_Performs_Aphex_Twin 21:43:13 always laughing and laughing loud 21:43:18 except i think i also meant something else 21:43:35 whatever fuck this i'm going away for quarter of an hour, back when i don't hate everybody 21:43:38 this sounds complicated elliott 21:43:57 http://miburl.com/3tYFIf darn.. i need a premium account at all costs 21:44:10 fuck you <-- Bike was lying hth 21:45:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:46:38 so h 21:52:47 (I thought it needed more emphasis.) <-- O KAY 21:55:12 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:57:31 > let stupid = 3 {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid 21:57:32 Terminated 21:57:35 > let stupid = 3 {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid 21:57:37 :1:16: parse error on input `{-# RULES' 21:57:55 FreeFull: NOPE 21:59:06 Bike: what sounds complicated. 21:59:26 that one album of that one thing 22:00:00 hm 22:00:05 > let stupid = 3; {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid 22:00:07 :1:17: parse error on input `{-# RULES' 22:00:21 > let stupid = 3 in {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} stupid 22:00:22 :1:19: parse error on input `{-# RULES' 22:00:37 stupid 22:01:22 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds). 22:01:30 oerjan: Oh well 22:02:32 FreeFull: although i don't know if RULES work outside top level anywhere 22:02:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:02:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 22:02:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:02:58 Bike: some of their stuff is pretty impressive 22:03:16 whose stuff 22:03:24 @let stupid = 3; {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} 22:03:24 Invalid declaration 22:03:32 STUPID 22:03:53 I've heard of a song called "Guile's theme", but why does a dialect of Scheme have a theme? 22:04:07 bad joke, retire it 22:04:12 was that meant to be a joke.. 22:04:36 I did gather that there's a game or something called Guile, but I can't help but think of the Scheme dialect 22:04:48 it's a character in a video game 22:05:02 also it's a word? you know, "guile", like ability to trick people 22:05:30 why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? <-- i think this may be "things reset for no sensible reason day". as well as ais523 lawful good day, of course. 22:05:34 Yes, but words don't typically get theme songs either 22:06:02 but sometimes... sometimes, more than one thing may be named after... /the same word/ 22:06:19 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 22:07:16 Did I say anything along the lines of "The character must be named after the Scheme dialect!" or "The Scheme dialect must be named after the character!"/ 22:07:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:07:37 definitely 22:07:43 you know generally you don't have to have an argument for your joke to work :P 22:08:09 in fact it doesn't help. 22:08:17 at all. 22:08:21 hth. 22:08:50 oerjan: in fact it didn't help. 22:08:52 at all. 22:08:54 hth. 22:09:01 thx. 22:09:01 recursion 22:09:34 we've obtained rapid fire device 22:09:42 hth, thx, hth. 22:10:06 -!- nooga has joined. 22:10:40 How efficient would be a Verilog implementation of the INTERCAL select ~ operator and its (almost) inverse (setting the unused bits to zero)? 22:11:11 zzo38: you could do it in one cycle, I don't know what the maximum clock speed would be 22:11:30 probably you could get a very high clock speed if it was completely forwarded, but that might use a prohibitive amount of silicon 22:11:48 (forwarding is sort-of the hardware equivalent of unrolling) 22:11:56 OK 22:12:11 I think you could probably do it in four to six stages and still fit into one clock cycle 22:14:57 (If you use both operations together, it acts like a bitwise AND; you can also do various other things with these operations together in different ways.) 22:16:51 You could also use them to encode and decode Morton numbers if you put -2/3 and -1/3 on the right operand. 22:20:55 I really think they would be useful for various things. How would it affect existing processor cores if such an instruction was added in the Verilog code? 22:21:35 zzo38: the major change would be in the decoding logic, I think 22:21:46 it's not significantly slower, or different, to an addition, from the point of view of implementation 22:22:29 hmmmmmmmmmm 22:22:39 * ais523 wonders if modern processors use single-cycle multipliers 22:22:57 they exist but are really expensive in silicon 22:23:16 however, I don't think the silicon use would be significant compared to, say, the L1 cache 22:24:20 Due to features like these, as well as other features such as BCD arithmetic, I would want a !asm metadata in LLVM which tells it that the result can be calculated using the specified assembly language instructions, even though there is a code or function or something calculating the same thing in the circumstances; this can be used for optimization. 22:27:44 ais523: I don't know if x86 does, but Amber uses Booth's multiplication and I don't know how many cycles it requires. 22:27:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:27:45 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)). 22:29:05 O, I found it; it is 34 clock cycles to multiply. 22:29:06 isn't the number of cycles for a multiplier dependent on the depth of the circuit (versus, like, the transistor depth for a cycle?) 22:29:11 34? o_O 22:29:28 Fiora: it depends on the number of registered stages in the circuit 22:29:28 better recode that shit as shiftadds 22:29:48 but that has a pretty strong correlation to the depth, because if your depth is too large compared to the number of stages, you have to slow down your clock speed to compensate 22:29:50 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 22:29:55 ais523: yeah, that's what I meant, sorry 22:30:00 he's going to keep that for a while isn't he 22:30:00 and modern processors try to run at the highest clock speed they physically can 22:30:14 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 22:30:15 just like, I figure a 64x64->128 1-cycle multiplier is probably not possible with the cycle depth required by like, an ivy bridge? 22:31:10 Fiora: it is, there's a famous construction that shows that you can do any combinatorial circuit in one stage with just two levels of nand gates 22:31:39 but you get a combinatorial explosion so it's not a useful one in practice, unless you can really spare the silicon and really need speed 22:31:52 it's done for additions sometimes 22:32:33 at which point does the size of the silicon start to limit what you can do? e.g. because of the speed of light being too low 22:32:49 that seems impossible...? like. two levels of nand gates means at most 4 bits of input 22:32:51 olsner: we've hit that point already 22:33:00 and you can't figure out one bit of output in a 128-bit multiply from just 4 bits of input 22:33:04 Fiora: very wide nand gates 22:33:07 oh. 22:33:16 what about actual 2-input gates <.< 22:33:25 hmm 22:33:28 I don't know offhand 22:33:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:33:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 22:33:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:33:49 but 3-input nand gates aren't particularly harder to build than 2-input nand gates, apart from having to try to connect three inputs to them 22:33:57 routing overhead is one of the major problems with modern hardware design 22:33:58 that seems like the thing that actually matters? since like, more and more inputs means more delay doesn't it? 22:34:14 a 128-input nand gate seems pretty crazy XD 22:34:16 not noticeably, apart from the routing problem 22:34:27 fwiw, six inputs seems to be the current standard in FPGAs 22:34:40 it used to be four at one point, and manufacturers are probably moving to higher numbers at the moment 22:35:51 The fastest multiplier I know is I think the ivy bridge multiplier 22:36:01 In order to save energy and to be compatible with programs requiring slower clock speeds, there could be I/O ports to adjust the clock speed to slow it down if it is wanted; does this work? 22:36:03 at least, like, in an actual hcip 22:36:06 *chip 22:36:15 Fiora: what I know is that if I accidentally ask for a single-cycle 32-bit multiply when writing a Verilog or VHDL program, the synthesizer knows how to handle it 22:36:27 -!- Zerker has joined. 22:36:31 though I still kinda wonder why they chose to allocate their gates like that but others didn't 22:36:43 How does the floating point coprocessors work in ARM? 22:37:53 ais523: does the synthesizer have, like, options that let you pick the sort of multiplier you want? 22:38:00 I guess in theory you could write your own... 22:38:07 Fiora: the synthesizer implements what you write 22:38:15 I meant for like, how it implements a "*" 22:38:29 yeah, * is single cycle, it has to be because there's no delay around it or the like 22:38:39 for longer multiplies, you instantiate modules from elsewhere 22:38:56 Does Verilog even allow * in compiled codes? 22:39:01 like, you get a 32-cycle multiply from your standard library 22:39:04 zzo38: yes, but it doesn't allow / 22:39:12 I think so... we used * and stuff in our MIPS chip in class... 22:39:29 if you want division, you need to get it from a library or implement it yourself 22:39:45 why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? <-- i think this may be "things reset for no sensible reason day". as well as ais523 lawful good day, of course. <-- it reset for no sensible reason? 22:39:49 sounds buggy 22:39:50 Does it allow / in stuff other than compiled codes though? (such as in macros and constant expressions) 22:40:12 zzo38: I don't know, I've never tried 22:40:19 I think it allows exponentiation in macros and constant expressions 22:40:29 and division is rather easier than exponentiation, so probably 22:41:31 `? ais523 22:41:33 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 22:41:36 ais523, I like that one ^ 22:42:22 If it was up to me, no arithmetic operations would be allowed in compiled codes; they would be allowed only in constant expressions, macros, selectors, and ROM data; and otherwise you have to specify your own algorithms in terms of bitwise. 22:45:05 I also would think their ought to be commands which means, that it would optionally use precompiled block in place of the specified block, which can be automatically selected based on the optimization and conditional compiler options, to ensure vendor-independent codes and still allow vendor-specific optimizations. 22:46:01 Does it have that? 22:46:02 night → 22:46:30 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)). 22:48:40 elliott, where's your link about files? 22:48:50 um 22:48:51 which one 22:48:55 which thing..... which link 22:49:04 which files 22:49:05 I think the one that's anti-file 22:50:34 If the coprocessors are omitted from Amber core, instead making the cache and privilege areas to be hard-coded, will it make the clock speed faster? 22:50:45 [...] with just two levels of nand gates <-- that's just disjunctive normal form, i think. (unless i got confused and it's conjunctive instead.) 22:51:01 oerjan: yes, pretty much that 22:51:12 right down to the not being able to remember which is which 22:55:26 sounds buggy <-- it's happened before that lambdabot messages get reset like that. but even worse, i hear they recently got their entire quote database reset several years back. 22:55:37 (that wasn't today though.) 22:55:44 `quote 22:55:46 252) elliott: there go my minutes of research!! 22:55:51 wait wrong one 22:55:52 @quote 22:55:53 hgolden says: pioneers are the ones with arrows in their backs. at least ours will be categorical arrows. 22:55:54 Sgeo: perhaps http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html, which I should maybe get cpressey to edit with a note that I wrote it because I was annoyed at Unix and hence it's a lot more whiny than it needs to be, and doesn't fully reflect my current views 22:57:03 files suck? lol 22:57:34 at least that's pretty straight 22:57:37 tag systems fo lyfe 22:57:44 also my historical account of them is a bit wrong -- e.g. I was unaware of how Multics did things at the time I wrote it 22:57:55 but I still dislike filesystems 22:58:23 filesystems? more like thebestsystems 22:58:37 wow I was annoying in 2010 22:58:47 shachaf: more like vilesystems!!! 22:59:08 more like badstupids 22:59:17 im bested 22:59:53 θs? more like badstupids 23:00:12 (THE JOKE IS GHC CODE IS FULL OF bad_stupid_theta) 23:00:49 what the hell is theta 23:00:59 greek letter 23:01:10 thx 23:01:13 Bike: bad & stupid 23:02:05 Bike: It's a class context, I think. 23:02:11 Or maybe just a context in general? 23:02:15 As in the thing to the left of => 23:02:54 btw, I had a really good esolang idea last sleep period 23:02:59 but haven't worked out the details 23:03:05 the basic idea is, the esolang is defined by an interpreter 23:03:14 whenever you run the interpreter, it mutates the language it interprets slightly 23:03:32 and always in such a way that every program you had ever successfully run through it would fail 23:03:44 you have to try to infer what the current state of the language is from the error messages 23:05:12 true masochists leave out the error messages 23:08:39 how would be the mutation realized? kind of randomly? 23:08:54 +be 23:09:05 no there was a be 23:10:15 hagb4rd: What do you get out of being in this channel? 23:11:44 sometimes someone says something interesting. or funny. or inspiring. but yea good question 23:13:52 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:16:45 but it's sad i can't remember how it's been since it was you who make me laugh 23:16:47 a pity 23:18:31 again, i have to ask 23:18:43 do you actually think you're saying something clever here 23:19:31 because you radiate this kind of cargo cult profundity 23:20:13 i don't understand what you're saying 23:20:56 "cargo cult profundity" probably is supposed to denote that you parrot profound things in a disjointed fashion divorced of their meaning 23:20:59 you sort of know the words and general comportment of someone saying insightful things about the world around them 23:21:17 you just don't actually have any actual insightful things to say about the world around you 23:21:28 aber sich ständig profilieren zu wollen, auch wenn man über leichen geht wäre nicht mein ding 23:21:53 I am here because I love fungot 23:21:53 c00kiemon5ter: this rampart, shaped like a hen's egg, yet containing enough power to keep people away from those wild, haunted hills behind hoary and fnord arkham that all his forebears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of the action of water through more than seventeen years ago, when mans 23:21:56 insofern ist es mir nicht so wichtig dass ich hier clever scheine 23:21:58 fungot, do you love me ? 23:21:58 c00kiemon5ter: this sound, as complex and unplaceable as any of the fnord poor harley warren once had. it came from india while carter and i were not connected, wherefore our first knowledge of extraordinary conditions came from others. the farther he went, and when he resumed his voice was fnord music of deep viols and of crystalline spheres. we talked often in the night as he stood on that high marble terrace with the curious 23:22:12 seguing into german for no good reason is not really proving otherwise, hagb4rd 23:22:19 aber vielleicht kann ich auch etwas lernen 23:22:28 *segueing, apparently 23:22:38 that word was much cooler back when i only vaguely knew about it 23:23:39 are segways still cool though 23:23:51 inasmuch as they ever were 23:23:56 shachaf: i hear their coolness rolled off a cliff 23:24:12 hello oerjan 23:24:16 `welcome oerjan 23:24:18 oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 23:25:29 hagb4rd: you certainly don't have to be profound to be here. but i think what they're complaining about is that you make a lot of barely-in-context sentences that sound like you are _trying_ to be profound. 23:25:59 and failing. 23:26:13 I never got any "trying to be profound" sense. 23:26:24 well.. i hope that's not my entire motivation 23:26:25 It's just that I see a lot of words with no point to them. 23:26:34 Then I look to the left and it says . 23:27:57 ok then mainly it's that barely-in-context part. 23:28:53 also i'm sure he's not the only one to go through a period of making such comments. 23:29:08 Ich sind klugbar 23:29:14 sorry. sometimes my brain makes weird associations. and i wonder about it myself 23:29:30 i'll try to compense 23:31:10 Jafet: Du machst Deutsch gutes, ja? 23:32:39 am bestenlich 23:33:41 you're both dutch? 23:33:47 you should talk to taneb 23:34:08 I thought taneb was Hexhamish. 23:35:20 Hexham am Main 23:35:27 and to answer Phantom_Hoovers question. no! i don't think i'm THAT clever. unfortunatly i'm not a good mathematician and not the best programmer. yes, i like philosphy and i like to wonder. also you guys impressed me very much, and that's mostly the reason i came here and ..am still here 23:36:15 no not impressed me 23:36:41 impressed is correct :) 23:37:32 had to check this in my dictionary 23:38:09 impressario 23:38:13 si 23:38:16 (see i too make random comments) 23:38:24 \o/ 23:39:48 !logs 23:47:40 (and yes, the workaround involves exhausting your pid space by forking until it wraps around and hits the value you're expecting) 23:47:48 this reminds me of anarchy golf 23:48:18 doesn't mitsuhiko play anagolf or something 23:48:22 maybe I'm misremembering a name 23:49:19 hmm, perhaps 23:49:22 although that was a different context 23:50:38 hmm, what was the context? 23:56:42 elliott: working around a bug in Upstart 23:56:49 also: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/19kjr5/fizzbuzz_revisited_using_rust/c8p452k 23:56:59 someone's unfinished attempt to write FizzBuzz in Homespring 23:57:09 I applaud them for trying (and in fact, for having heard of the language) 23:57:14 beautiful 23:57:48 at least, they didn't say it was Homespring, but it's obvious 23:58:38 I would find these select encode and decode operations to both be very useful in various C programs I write. 23:59:12 Would you find it useful?