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01:07:26 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: hey stop torturing yourself
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01:07:47 <Sgeo> Got an email from the recruiter
01:08:03 <Sgeo> 'I will check. I'm not sure. What time is your internship interview?'
01:10:04 <Arc_Koen> what in those three sentences make you think you've screwed yourself over?
01:11:42 <Sgeo> The part where I received the email after saying that I feel like I screwed myself over.
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01:43:54 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game today.
01:44:09 <zzo38> I didn't quite advance experience level just yet
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01:53:08 <Sgeo> I forget. zzo38, do you read OOTS?
01:56:30 <zzo38> I read books, mostly
01:57:58 <zzo38> I did manage to find the stuff that they took, along with various other things, so we took back our stuff and left everything else there, and then teleport away, twice, which helps. They had some magic alarm in there but I managed to turn it off
01:58:45 <zzo38> But first I want to see if it has a resonant frequency; maybe that can be used.
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02:36:22 <Sgeo> I can't wait to be able to eat!
02:38:11 <elliott> is your mouth currently glued together
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02:39:53 <Bike> iirc it's mostly tape
02:40:02 <Sgeo> I'm being slightly poetic >.>. Just waiting for food to cook.
02:40:10 <Sgeo> Well, for water to boil, after which food will be cooking.
02:49:46 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Strict thead :: Html -> Html
02:49:46 <lambdabot> Text.XHtml.Frameset thead :: Html -> Html
02:50:33 <Bike> > GHC.Exts.the [3,4,5]
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02:52:49 <elliott> it's the element of the list if they're all equal
02:55:07 <Sgeo> errors are ugly
02:55:13 <oerjan> doesn't seem like something that needs to be in GHC.Exts ...
02:55:27 <kmc> it's used by one of the sugars
02:55:34 <kmc> i think "SQL-like" extended list comprehensions
03:32:46 <kmc> shachaf: a friend of mine is thinking of buying a house in EPA!
03:33:01 <kmc> he says the crime rate is a lot lower than it used to be
03:33:09 <kmc> school districts are still bad but he isn't planning to have kids
03:36:05 <kmc> he also says the violence is mostly criminals killing each other
03:36:30 <kmc> which is the kind of statement that makes me uncomfortable in a social sense, but is probably ok as part of the personal calculation on where to buy a house
03:49:51 <zzo38> If criminals want to kill each other, well, that is why they are criminals. Just hope they don't kill the other people who are not the criminals that are killing each other all the time. If they are ciminal then hopefully the police catch them and take them to jail, and then kill each other while they are in there (as long as they don't kill the "small" criminals) it makes the police work less job! There is good and bad to good and bad things too.
03:51:25 <zzo38> That is why criminals should only kill each other while in jail. Outside of jail, they should be prevented to do so and should get caught by police instead.
03:52:20 <zzo38> But if you want to buy a house, that isn't the point.
03:52:26 <copumpkin> and in jail, it should be an arena
03:52:42 <zzo38> copumpkin: Yes; security cameras.
03:53:01 <copumpkin> yes, the cameras safeguard security and peace
03:53:12 <copumpkin> the populace will watch the games and will be peaceful
03:53:34 <zzo38> copumpkin: No, I mean an ordinary jail, not an island.
03:54:05 <zzo38> The point to buying a house is: how much it cost, how much you are nearby what you need to go to, how many rooms the house have, and so on.
03:54:38 <Bike> "In a very different universe where every point in space were independent from all others, white noise images would be common place."
03:54:41 <copumpkin> you wouldn't care if your house was right next to a slaughterhouse?
03:54:59 <zzo38> copumpkin: How much noise does a slaughterhouse make?
03:55:15 <copumpkin> zzo38: lots, constant squeals of pain and death and fear
03:55:17 <Bike> well, that would probably violate zoning restrictions. though i live next to a butcher and it's quite tolerable
03:55:23 <zzo38> Bike: O, do you mean the white noise universe?
03:55:34 <Bike> There's a white noise universe?
03:55:42 <zzo38> copumpkin: Then I suppose if there is a lot of noise I wouldn't want to live there too much.
03:56:38 <Bike> Kinda hard to pronounce.
03:57:24 <zzo38> Some people get around zoning restrictions that are put in place after the house is already built, by jacking the roof up several metres and then change the basement, change each part individually until you made an entirely new house, which still violates the zoning rule but is considered OK because you just changed the old house, rather than making the new one.
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04:14:10 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that leap seconds should be mentioned on Snopes.
04:14:39 <Sgeo> "There are some minutes with 61 seconds" totally sounds like a silly idea of the type that Snopes would debunk
04:18:09 <zzo38> At what time does the pope start?
04:18:52 <Bike> Oh, has the conclave finished?
04:21:43 <coppro> mass begins in 4 hours, and after that the conclave will begin with a single round of voting
04:21:49 <coppro> then 4 per day until there is a winner
04:23:43 <kmc> Sgeo: did you know they had February 30 in Sweden in 1712
04:24:53 <Bike> so, i guess that answers zzo38's question
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04:25:18 <Bike> related: did you know that between popes, the vatican insignia include a striped umbrella
04:25:24 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sede_vacante.svg
04:27:48 <kmc> america's next top pope
04:28:20 <Bike> eh, wasn't benny unpopular with the americans?
04:28:37 <kmc> don't know much about popes tbh
04:28:47 <kmc> he was unpopular with me and all my friends but...
04:29:33 <Bike> i'm mostly thinking of Beaton's comics about John Paul II, not that she's American
04:33:42 <kmc> i think it's more that JPII was unusually popular
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04:35:00 <Bike> "As part of his special emphasis on the universal call to holiness, he beatified 1,340 people and canonised 483 saints, more than the combined tally of his predecessors during the preceding five centuries" dang
04:36:00 <kmc> that's more than a full calendar's worth of saints
04:36:20 <Bike> i've never been clear on how saint days work anyway
04:36:49 <Bike> i wonder if during the eleventh century or so some guy was like "uh, guys? we have a thousand years worth of saints here, how can we have so many feast days if you keep canonizing people"
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05:00:09 <zzo38> They could make one day with many saints, I suppose, if they need to.
05:00:35 <zzo38> Including fictitious saints, if they want to, but usually they have removed them from the calendar in those cases.
05:03:35 <zzo38> (such as Filumena)
05:10:24 <zzo38> However: The removal of an individual from the calendar does not necessarily indicate that he or she is not a saint.
05:21:08 <zzo38> (But it is not really known if Filumena existed or not; there is evidence both ways.)
05:22:43 <Bike> Wikipedia's just showing me a 1946 play...
05:23:42 <Sgeo> I think I just thought of a real-world use case for newLIsp :/
05:24:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: What such use?
05:24:41 <Sgeo> Or partly anyway -- I think Smalltalk could do it too, but then maybe macros are also useful
05:25:05 <Sgeo> Suppose you want a continuation-based web server that can serialize the continuations
05:25:21 <Bike> good supposition
05:25:22 <Sgeo> newLisp can easily serialize any part of its state, if I understand correctly.
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05:26:08 <Sgeo> (Maybe it needs to scale up a lot and storing the continuations so storing all the continuations in memory isn't feasible, or something)
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06:00:50 <zzo38> Yes, what is it, please?
06:01:00 <HackEgo> Cutay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:01:23 <zzo38> Cutay: The ceiling is up, and the light is up, and the sky is up.
06:01:40 <Cutay> Wow. That's not what I ment
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06:02:30 <ion> The z axis is up.
06:02:57 <Fiora> GPS satellites are up!
06:03:26 <Bike> Compared to me most of them are probably pretty far to the left or something.
06:03:49 <zzo38> What axis you want to be up, depends on your coordinate system
06:04:17 <zzo38> How can I plot the GPS satellites on the horoscope?
06:04:41 <Bike> aren't they geosynchronous?
06:04:46 <oerjan> i don't think they're orbits are close to ecliptic...
06:05:54 <zzo38> They don't have to be close to the ecliptic, to know their ecliptic longitude
06:06:09 <zzo38> I also want to plot the GPS satellites on the map of the world (giving their hour angle and declination)
06:07:14 <Bike> If they're not geosynchronyous they must have to keep track of where they are in their orbits, hm
06:08:53 <zzo38> The map of the world showing the hour angle and declination of the objects, together with their rising/setting/midheaven/nadir lines, are sometimes called "astro-graph" or "astro-map".
06:09:08 <oerjan> i think geosynchronous orbits would be _awful_ for triangulating - they're all in the same circle
06:09:23 <zzo38> Are GPS satellites geosynchronous?
06:09:30 <Bike> Wouldn't you just have them in different positions?
06:09:37 <oerjan> no, that's what i'm pointing out
06:09:41 <Bike> So you'd have one over New York and one over Mexico City or whatever
06:10:00 <oerjan> Bike: _all_ geosynchronous orbits are 20000 km over the equator
06:10:25 <Bike> that's... pretty obvious, isn't it
06:10:35 <zzo38> If you can't use geosynchronous orbits for triangulation, then it would be the idea that if you have satellites that need triangulation, remember to don't make them geosynchronous, please.
06:11:23 <zzo38> If they are over the equator, then I think their declination will be zero. What are their right ascension?
06:11:36 <zzo38> Furthermore, what is their hour angle?
06:11:39 <oerjan> another thing - if you were close to the equator and they were all over it, then even with perfect conditions you wouldn't be able to distinguish south of equator from north of equator
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06:12:05 <oerjan> by symmetry it would give the same signal times
06:12:21 <Bike> i get it, i get it >_<
06:12:51 <Bike> i won't launch a geolocation satellite network into orbits above the equator, i swear
06:13:05 <oerjan> so they cannot be. although i _do_ recall that the russian GLONASS satellites supposedly have better covering over the poles.
06:16:30 <zzo38> Still I would like to plot these artificial objects in horoscopes and astromaps, and for objects with cameras, including the camera too.
06:16:45 <zzo38> I don't know of any software that will do such things.
06:17:12 <Bike> There's no software to track the positions of artificial satellites?
06:17:35 <zzo38> Bike: There probably are, but not to create charts like I described.
06:17:40 <Bike> ...eh, I don't know much astrology, but don't they move relatively kinda fast for astrology anyway? Planets are bad enough.
06:17:42 <pikhq> How GPS does it is the satellites *themselves* send you the positions.
06:18:03 <pikhq> (IIRC the datastream contains the telemetry for all the satellites at the time)
06:18:14 <zzo38> Bike: The moon moves much faster, and houses move much faster than that. The speed at which they move isn't the point though.
06:18:40 <zzo38> (The houses move simply because the Earth rotates.)
06:19:32 <Bike> I mean, they'd change all the time.
06:19:45 <Bike> The GLONASS is rising in the house of the lion for two seconds, or whatever
06:20:08 <zzo38> Yes, they would change all the time, but that doesn't mean they don't have any coordinates!
06:25:06 <zzo38> I think there are some corrections and things, but I don't know how difficult that makes it to predict their positions in the future?
06:31:08 <zzo38> Some people wanted to remove Pluto from their horoscopes because it is not a planet. That is silly; just because it is not a planet, does not mean that it does not have any coordinates.
06:31:37 <zzo38> (A valid reason to remove Pluto would be if you wanted to avoid plotting too many objects at once.)
06:32:19 <zzo38> Do you agree with me about what reason is silly and what is valid?
06:32:43 <Bike> I agree that I want to know the sign of which pluton I was born under.
06:33:39 <zzo38> Well, you can calculate that easily with the correct software.
06:34:06 <zzo38> Do you mean the ecliptic longitude of Pluto at the time of your birth?
06:34:23 <zzo38> (The astrological signs are just an angular unit of measurement for ecliptic longitude.)
06:34:39 <Bike> Er, not pluton, what do you call those things...
06:35:09 <zzo38> O, you mean Plutino.
06:35:50 <zzo38> Your request does not make a lot of sense, as it is written. Please be more specific.
06:36:14 <Bike> People are usually born under the sign of some planet, right?
06:36:22 <zzo38> There are several plutinos.
06:36:55 <zzo38> Usually the sign you are born "under" actually refers to the ecliptic longitude of the sun at the time of your birth.
06:37:14 <zzo38> The sign you would actually be directly underneath would be the midheaven sign, not the sun sign.
06:37:39 <zzo38> Planets are said to rule certain signs (this is all arbitrary), but the signs are not planets.
06:37:46 <Bike> Midheaven has a cooler name.
06:38:10 <Bike> Is there some possible system of drawing a bijection between when you were born and a plutino?
06:39:03 <zzo38> I suppose it could be possible, but I don't know.
06:39:21 <zzo38> Not a bijection, though.
06:39:48 <zzo38> (since a bijection requires going both ways)
06:40:38 <zzo38> But you could calculate the coordinates of the plutinos at the time of your birth (or at a different time, if you want).
06:42:59 <zzo38> The ecliptic longitude of Pluto right now is 281 degrees, which is 11 Capricorn.
06:43:31 <oklopol> "<oerjan> <boily> →? <- "->" is an #esoteric interject which i use roughly equivalently to "afk". i think oklopol started it." i think it's a finnish / even more local thing which i thought was a general irc thing back then.
06:43:33 <zzo38> ("11 Capricorn" means 11 degrees past the beginning of the Capricorn sign.)
06:43:49 <zzo38> oklopol: Maybe; can you figure out?
06:44:04 <zzo38> oklopol: I didn't know that, so maybe it isn't necessarily?
06:44:26 <zzo38> See if other Finnish people say about it.
06:48:03 <oerjan> it cannot be finnish, it has no suffixes
06:53:47 <zzo38> Bike: Midheaven has a cooler name than what?
06:57:24 <Bike> Zenith is pretty good too.
07:01:02 <zzo38> Actually they aren't quite the same thing. Zenith is the point directly overhead; midheaven is the ecliptic longitude of the local meridian (that is, the meridian overhead). At noon, the sun is at midheaven; it is not necessarily at zenith. (If the sun is at zenith, this is called lahaina noon.)
07:02:02 <oerjan> well the sun cannot be at zenith at the latitudes most (all?) in this channel live at
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07:02:57 <zzo38> Well, yes, that is correct; the sun is only at zenith between the tropics. That doesn't make what I said incorrect, though.
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07:18:45 <zzo38> Does Windows not send the correct commands to the PC speaker?
07:30:06 <zzo38> Running a DOS program to send the commands on Windows seem to treat mode 2,3,4,5 as the same, even though Wikipedia says otherwise. If running on DOSBox, it makes single clicks for all modes other than 3 and 7 (which is equivalent to mode 3). However from the description it seems to be that mode 2 might also generate a continuous tone; DOSBox doesn't do that, though.
07:30:30 <zzo38> "OUT will then remain high until the counter reaches 1, and will go low for one clock pulse. OUT will then go high again, and the whole process repeats itself."
07:31:05 <zzo38> Does it not work directly because the hardware is faulty?
07:31:55 <zzo38> Or is it something Windows does?
07:34:17 <zzo38> Decimal mode does seem to work.
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07:36:59 <zzo38> Actually it is correct that mode 2 does not generate a continuous tone. "This mode creates a high output signal that drops low for one input signal cycle (0.8381 uS), which is too fast to make a difference to the PC speaker (see mode 3)." (from osdev)
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07:52:40 <shachaf> Did I miss multiple messages?
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08:01:15 <kmc> why buy a house in EPA? uh, I guess because it's cheap and he wants to live somewhere around there
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08:05:04 <ion> Eicosapentaenoic acid
08:07:15 <olsner> ah, buying a house in acid sounds like a bad deal
08:09:45 <kmc> it's East Palo Alto
08:09:48 <kmc> shachaf's hood
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08:13:12 <ion> gangstahood
08:13:30 <ion> shangstahood
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15:55:27 <metasepia> CYUL 121550Z 29002KT 10SM -RA FEW006 SCT012 OVC016 06/06 A2980 RMK SF2SC2SC4 SLP093
15:55:55 <boily> ah. everything is fine, except for the crappy weather.
15:56:33 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
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16:03:53 * Sgeo is utterly petrified of his interview tomorrow
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16:21:26 <Sgeo> Erm, don't know?
16:30:07 <Sgeo> I told the internship person that I wanted to reschedule, but didn't manage to set a date before she left for the day, but she did see that I wanted to reschedule, so if I don't show up to that hopefully it won't be bad
16:30:19 <Sgeo> The Cablevision interview is still going on :D
16:31:52 <ion> http://www.coinheist.com/rubik/a_regular_crossword/ https://github.com/ekmett/ersatz/commit/9e16d70986ad4169160d3e5647dc1c1ca05b49f0
16:32:02 <Arc_Koen> so she heard you telling her you wanted to rescheduled, but then said "oh wait it's 4pm I gotta go" and hung up on you?
16:32:44 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, email conversation
16:33:38 <Sgeo> Considering my delays in replying to her, not really
16:35:40 <Arc_Koen> ok, well, just relax and you'll have a great interview tomorrow
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16:48:47 <boily> elliott: of course my bot won't answer. it was lunchtime.
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17:07:33 <Sgeo> It be tea time!
17:08:31 <boily> some day in my life, I'll have to celebrate tea time.
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17:18:04 <Taneb> "prove that the integral from 0 to N of ln (1 + x) with respect to x is equal to (N + 1) ln (N + 1) - N, where N is a positive constant"
17:18:15 <Taneb> I have no idea where to start with that
17:24:17 <kmc> i take it you're not allowed to just use the rules for integrating ln that are found in every calculus text?
17:24:57 <Taneb> That... may be a good idea
17:25:10 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_integrals_of_logarithmic_functions
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17:25:48 <boily> what's the rules for integrating a function composition? in this case int from 0 to N of g(f(x)) dx, where g(x) = ln x and f(x) = x + 1.
17:26:00 <Taneb> Sorry for stupid'ing
17:26:11 <kmc> Taneb: if you aren't allowed to assume these rules, maybe you can integrate by parts
17:26:14 <kmc> as in http://www.math.com/tables/integrals/more/ln.htm
17:26:49 <Taneb> Thanks, I'll go with that
17:26:57 <kmc> boily: I don't think there is a general one
17:27:30 <boily> integration by parts is evil, but not as evil as coordinate substitution.
17:27:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_rule
17:29:30 <boily> something like that. like, you have shapes defined with spherical coordinates, and you need to convert that to cartesian.
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17:49:42 <boily> Taneb has disconnected. that vicious integral got the better of him, it seems.
17:56:28 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, going to try to re-watch that Farscape episode
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18:07:48 <Sgeo> I'd like to watch some hard sci-fi at some point
18:11:27 <Bike> there are hard sci-fi tv shows?
18:12:22 <Bike> you could watch Solaris, I guess, but it's like three hours long and Russian
18:12:35 <elliott> working without functional extensionality is the definition of pain
18:13:10 <boily> a book doesn't count as being watchable?
18:13:27 <Fiora> ghost in the shell: stand alone complex is fun hard(?) scifi
18:13:31 <kmc> i watched a book for hours but it didn't do shit :(
18:13:46 <Fiora> I've heard good things about planetes as far as hard scifi goes but I need to see that
18:14:06 <Bike> oh planetes is cool
18:14:13 <boily> planetes is cool indeed.
18:14:26 <Bike> when i thik of hard sci fi i mostly think of weird shit like anything Egan writes, though
18:14:40 <Fiora> actually wow I really do need to see it
18:14:42 <Fiora> maybe after gundam00
18:14:58 <boily> `learn bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object.
18:15:40 <Fiora> patlabor is also a realistic scifi series but it's much more 20 minutes into the future and not quite so serious (no cool spaceships or stuff)
18:19:15 <fizzie> I don't know if I'd have called GitS:SAC "hard", really.
18:19:34 <fizzie> I suppose those things are relative, though.
18:21:12 <fizzie> Except for the Mohs scale of sci-fi hardness, that's pretty absolute.
18:21:30 <fizzie> I think it's based on scratching a book with another book.
18:21:58 <Bike> GITS is a manga, that's usually softcover, it can't be very hard.
18:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, meanwhile farscape was a tv series from the early 2000s so logically it'd be a video cassette
18:23:13 <elliott> PH DVDs are pretty old.....
18:24:02 <Phantom_Hoover> pretty sure all the films i watched as a child were on cassette
18:24:55 <elliott> BUT farscape is 1993-2003 sez wp
18:24:58 <elliott> 2003 is kinda mid 2000s!!!
18:25:04 <Bike> DVDs are pretty hard but I think you could break them easily?
18:25:18 <Bike> Or scratch them.
18:25:24 <fizzie> "DVD-Video became the dominant form of home video distribution in Japan when it first went on sale in 1996, but did not become the dominant form of home video distribution in the United States until June 15, 2003, when weekly DVD-Video in the United States rentals began outnumbering weekly VHS cassette rentals, reflecting the rapid adoption rate of the technology in the U.S. marketplace."
18:26:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, but you could definitely scratch paper with a dvd
18:26:48 <Bike> But what about the covers?
18:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i think we're missing the real issue which is that elliott has somehow managed to confuse 1999 and 1993
18:27:45 <elliott> it's basically the same though
18:28:45 <FreeFull> elliott: in 1993, I didn't exist
18:28:47 <boily> the nineties never existed. it is a conspiracy deployed by the government. you can go straight from 1989 to 2000 without a single significant second having ever occured.
18:29:33 <Bike> Get off my lawn.
18:32:14 <elliott> probably 4 or 5 or something
18:32:28 <elliott> it's kind of tricky to work out how old you are i think
18:32:34 <elliott> it would be easy if months didn't exist
18:33:43 <elliott> well that's hard to remember because you're so much more terrible
18:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm pretty sure if you get more terrible than you you wrap back around to good
18:35:10 <boily> I feel old seeing y'all being young'uns in 1999. I was ten at that time.
18:36:09 * Bike aims shotgun at elliott
18:36:49 <elliott> boily: wait I mentally assumed you were like fizzie's age
18:36:57 <elliott> I guess that is my instinctive reaction to weird foreign people!!!
18:37:20 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I wouldn't call myself a big one. I was kinda scrawny, and still vaguely am.
18:37:36 <boily> elliott: I'm not weird, I'm not foreign, and how old is fizzie really&
18:39:01 <fizzie> I'm not the oldest thing around here.
18:39:24 <fizzie> (And won't be for over a month!)
18:40:26 <fizzie> I am seriously still 29, as far as I know.
18:40:39 <elliott> i kinda parse fizzie as almost-but-not-quite-30
18:40:46 <elliott> not sure he makes sense to be 30
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18:44:58 <elliott> it's true fizzie would be a fantastic dad
18:47:47 <Fiora> fizzie: yeah, people can probably debate for ages what 'hard' means :P
18:48:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: come on cpressey is an old man
18:48:09 <elliott> he definitely fits the bill
18:48:44 <elliott> he's like at least 25 billion years old
18:48:46 * c00kiemon5ter oO(hard is the hearts of people not sharing their cookies with me)
18:49:29 <Bike> So roughly 25 fizzies.
18:50:56 <Sgeo> I don't know whether to feel old or young
18:51:20 <Fiora> Sgeo: toy story came out over 15 years ago
18:52:03 <Bike> stop lying fiora
18:52:13 <Bike> i'm still pretty much ten!!
18:52:22 <boily> lunchtime is doubly perceptive.
18:53:06 <c00kiemon5ter> anyway, nowadays we have been having the time cube
18:54:04 <boily> there really is a wikipédia article on any subject. even the time cube.
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18:55:13 <monqy> that's a lot of years
18:55:15 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: no no no. how would i get a wrong answer
18:55:47 <Bike> elliott: p. sure 17 is above 15
18:55:53 <c00kiemon5ter> fungot, one is a demonic religious lie, one - does not exist, except in death state.
18:55:54 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: like unlambda. the square is circled, the fnord
18:56:19 <Bike> fungot, why are your hapaxes fnorded again?
18:56:20 <fungot> Bike: i find that rather silly, actually apparently i've totalled more than 20k typed in the manifest there is no simple, portable module system? ( as suggested by alan bawden in 1996. others can move their own creations ahead, but keep in mind
18:56:57 <Bike> http://tunes.org/wiki/alan_20bawden.html k
18:57:38 <c00kiemon5ter> ending with "but keep in mind" sounds like Yoda-speech :D
19:10:53 <nooodl> nah, toy story 1 is only 81 minutes long
19:12:16 <boily> nooodl: cf. c00kiemon5ter and time perception.
19:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (i once knew someone who seemed to measure time by the yardstick of pregnancy)
19:16:20 <boily> which means that a year is ~1.35 babies.
19:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i believe the rough quote was "3 months? If I got pregnant now I'd be 3 months pregnant by the time it arrived!"
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19:37:15 <Sgeo> I guess http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters doesn't have room for compilers?
19:37:28 <monqy> is this about trustfuck
19:39:12 <AnotherTest> Sgeo: I guess that's why it's called EsoInterpreters rather than EsoCompilers
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19:47:35 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amelia that's new
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20:12:49 <boily> AnotherTest: that's short, too.
20:14:53 <Snowyowl> Is there any decent software for drawing 2D "ascii art", that could be used to write Befunge source code?
20:18:39 <boily> jave is good. I wonder if it is still in active development...
20:19:21 <boily> nothing new since 2010, but still: http://www.jave.de/
20:20:01 <oerjan> <ion> http://www.coinheist.com/rubik/a_regular_crossword/ [...] <-- looks fun
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20:20:24 * oerjan wioll haven imported into paint program
20:20:41 <nooodl> i solved a regular crossword in february
20:20:50 <boily> what's a wioll haven?
20:21:03 <nooodl> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~param/quotes/guide.html
20:21:10 <oerjan> see dr streetmentioner's famous grammar
20:23:10 <boily> thanks. maintenant j'aurai avoir eu compris.
20:23:27 <boily> (got to love those French verbs. they're like lego blocks, but with more exceptions!)
20:24:34 <nooodl> i'll have had understood. english verbs are lego blocky too!
20:24:52 <nooodl> maybe in a more boring way, though
20:25:00 <Bike> less pretty to pronounce
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20:25:35 <nooodl> "been" sounds so awful. c'mon, english
20:25:45 <boily> your exceptions are less interesting and of a lower quality :p
20:27:19 <Bike> imo the best part of english verbs is that a good amount of them are conjugated in a completely different way from the rest
20:27:41 <Bike> i ran back to france but they didn't want me
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20:37:12 <nooodl> well the french ones are kinda mine technically
20:37:25 <nooodl> the english language definitely isn't
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20:38:58 <nooodl> boily mentioned "[my] exceptions" when i talked about english verb conjugations, but actually closer to french than to english (i'm belgiumian)
20:39:12 <nooodl> *but i'm actually closer to
20:39:24 <Bike> oh. i don't know anything about belgian
20:39:58 <Bike> ...such as that it no longer exists, ok
20:41:14 <nooodl> oh yeah the Belgian Language isn't a thing
20:41:32 <nooodl> what i'm actually saying is: half of belgium speaks dutch and the other half speaks french
20:41:44 <nooodl> while i'm from the dutch-speaking part, pretty much everyone is expected to know french
20:42:07 <Bike> are the francophones expected to know dutch?
20:43:07 <nooodl> not really. their secondary schools usually teach either english or dutch, students get to choose
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20:43:21 <nooodl> and pretty much nobody picks dutch because english is Super Cool
20:43:41 <nooodl> us dutch-speaking belgians really like complaining about all the effort we put into learning our neighbours' language while we don't get anything in return!
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20:44:39 <nooodl> historically, french was the language of the elite in belgium, too. only the plebeians spoke dutch
20:45:10 <nooodl> there were political parties called "taalpartijen" (language parties) that just rebelled against the oppression of dutch speakers!
20:45:26 <nooodl> eventually dutch became a Real Official Language
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20:48:18 <nooodl> speaking of: dutch is a really horrible language when it comes to verbs. (it's a lot like german)
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20:48:32 <boily> the infamous V2 alignment.
20:48:42 <nooodl> ask elliott about Ziet!!!
20:49:09 <nooodl> oh yes the V2 alignment is pretty great too
20:49:21 <nooodl> (is dutch the only language that does anything like it?)
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20:51:02 <nooodl> wow turns out V2 word order is crazy
20:52:30 <oerjan> what is V2 alignment? that thing of putting subordinate verbs usually last?
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20:53:15 <nooodl> V2 alignment is where the verb of the main clause is always in the second place
20:53:29 <myname> what's the problem with that?
20:53:33 <nooodl> "the kids / PLAYED / in the garden / today"
20:53:39 <nooodl> "in the garden / PLAYED / the kids / today"
20:53:42 <oerjan> oh right. norwegian has that too, but not the subordinate last placement
20:53:48 <boily> “Dit boek las ik gesteren”.
20:53:54 * boily shudders in abject terror
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20:54:33 <nooodl> it's common to hear native dutch speakers say stuff like "this book read i yesterday" when speaking "dunglish"
20:54:40 <oerjan> so it doesn't sound weird to me. well a _bit_, we don't switch objects first that often.
20:55:13 <Bike> may i suggest a better name than "dunglish"
20:55:14 <oerjan> "Denne boka leste jeg i går." yep perfectly normal.
20:55:23 <myname> nooodl: that's strange
20:55:24 <Bike> like, anything
20:55:42 <myname> do dutch dub movies and tv shows?
20:55:53 <oerjan> nooodl: so basically it's probably all germanic languages _except_ english >:)
20:55:55 <nooodl> myname: luckily, no, not often
20:56:09 <nooodl> only stuff like nickolodeon cartoons
20:56:16 <nooodl> otherwise we prefer subtitles
20:56:21 <boily> «J'ai lu ce livre hier.» "He leído este libro ayer."
20:56:28 <myname> nooodl: i had a discussion about germany being a rare exception in dubbing everything
20:56:33 <myname> never realized it before
20:56:45 <boily> dubbing policy is completely different in France than here.
20:56:55 <boily> they even subtitle movies from Québec!
20:56:56 <myname> nontheless, i'd never say something like "the book read i yesterday"
20:57:25 <Bike> would you if you were trying to imitate Yoda
20:57:31 <myname> nooodl: shouldn't you be better in english in this case?
20:57:52 <oerjan> norwegian has this little subtlety in subordinate clauses that you can often detect good, but not perfect non-native speakers with: certain adverbs suddenly come before the verb instead of after. but the verb still comes before lot of stuff.
20:58:30 <nooodl> myname: young people are generally pretty good at english
20:58:41 <oerjan> "Jeg har ikke lest den boka" - i haven't read that book. "Jeg sa at jeg ikke har lest den boka." - i said that i haven't read that book.
20:59:18 <nooodl> back in the day there was a lot less influence from english media so old people still say adorable things like that
21:00:09 <olsner> oerjan: we have the same thing, but I didn't realize it was a subtlety
21:00:13 <myname> nooodl: i see, i can think of germans doing that, too
21:00:22 <nooodl> boily: haha, we've actually done something similar
21:00:35 <myname> but i think germans are more known for that become/get issue
21:00:51 <nooodl> until like 2005-ish, tv shows and movies in "dutch dutch" (dutch from the netherlands) got subtitled
21:01:10 <nooodl> and it was controversial. some dutch people felt we were poking fun at them for their "weird" accent
21:01:17 <nooodl> so these days they're gone :')
21:03:36 <nooodl> oerjan: that sounds awful
21:06:28 <boily> nooodl: on Monday nights, there's this thing called Douteux: http://douteux.org/
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21:07:04 <boily> we get to see weird and strange and wtfing extracts from various excerpts and random stuff.
21:07:33 <boily> when we stumble on something from België, we often have multiple subtiles in both Dutch and French, with a voiceover in english.
21:07:39 <boily> the end-effect is surprising.
21:07:47 <boily> Arc_Koen: bonsoir!
21:08:02 <nooodl> cinemas here tend to be bilingual too
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21:08:29 <nooodl> so you're watching an english movie with dutch subtitles and french subtitles...
21:08:34 <Arc_Koen> I'm just coming back from the cinema
21:08:58 <Arc_Koen> the director told us to cancel one of the two films because they had (AGAIN) heating problems
21:09:16 <Arc_Koen> well the spectators weren't happy about it
21:09:44 <Arc_Koen> we had that one guy explaining to us how he had just walked 20 minutes in the snow, despite his (very) old age, to see that movie
21:09:58 <nooodl> that sounds pretty cool
21:10:03 <Arc_Koen> sometimes they call me for weekends and I get paid
21:10:27 <Arc_Koen> so the director told him he could not have spectators watch a film in the cold
21:10:36 <Arc_Koen> and the guy "I SURVIVED THE WAR I DON'T CARE IF IT'S COLD"
21:11:03 <Arc_Koen> especially since the new projectionist is a very pretty girl
21:11:45 <nooodl> it's comforting to hear it's snowing over there too (what the HELL is that about)
21:12:08 <Sgeo> Clinical strength head&shoulders smells bad
21:12:15 <Arc_Koen> I usually go to the cinema with my bike
21:12:44 <Arc_Koen> and I usually don't mind biking in the snow
21:13:17 <Arc_Koen> this was my first time alone in a car AND THERE WAS THAT FREAKY SNOW EVERYWHERE
21:14:08 <boily> snow is not freaky, it loves you, hugs you, and wants you to be their forever.
21:14:21 <boily> hm. ok. well, snow can be a little bit freaky.
21:15:04 <Arc_Koen> one of the cars in front of me stopped in a rising road
21:15:15 <Arc_Koen> (is that how you call that? a route going up)
21:15:57 <Arc_Koen> I thought I was doing something wrong, but after a while it was clear it was the snow
21:16:25 <Arc_Koen> and because of me the car behind me got stuck too
21:16:39 <Arc_Koen> after a while I managed to drive again but they didn't :)
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21:19:21 <nooodl> i should fill some esointerpreters gap
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21:21:56 <nooodl> unefunge is just befunge without ^ v and |?
21:22:11 <nooodl> oh, and g and p commands having one less argument
21:22:44 <nooodl> it doesn't seem to be described anywhere on the internet, at the moment...
21:22:55 <Deewiant> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
21:23:20 <nooodl> ooh unefunge is based on Funge-98 not Funge-93
21:25:48 <nooodl> that makes it a lot tougher to implement...
21:26:14 <Arc_Koen> because funge-98 is a lot tougher than funge-93
21:26:20 <Taneb> nooodl, at the same time, it's just a tape
21:26:38 <nooodl> yes but you have to deal with a lot of funge-98's extra stuff
21:26:45 <Arc_Koen> Taneb: yeah, but a tape with a crazy Lahey space
21:26:52 <elliott> lahey space isn't really that crazy
21:27:29 <nooodl> and i was planning to write it in golfscript... the longer that gets the more unwritable it gets, too
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21:29:14 <myname> what's the problem with lahey space?
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21:36:14 <Arc_Koen> myname: it's not quite a torus that's what
21:36:54 <Arc_Koen> so, I just wanted to make a joke, because in one dimension, it's exactly the same as a torus
21:36:58 <myname> if direction = right and cell = last: newcell = first
21:37:01 <oerjan> <boily> what's the rules for integrating a function composition? in this case int from 0 to N of g(f(x)) dx, where g(x) = ln x and f(x) = x + 1.
21:37:14 <oerjan> messy. but when f is linear it's easy.
21:37:57 <oerjan> (basically you try substituting what's inside, but in the general case it's just luck whether that makes it easier or not.)
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21:38:53 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: ok ok but what formula do I type in my calculator??
21:40:12 <oerjan> presumably there's some syntax for integrating a function
21:42:54 <nooodl> i'm glad wolfram alpha forces me to log into it with facebook these days.
21:44:23 <oerjan> afaiu the kind of integration you can do without massive theory is essentially just running differentiation backwards and hoping the pieces fit together, which they'll do if it's a school test. hth.
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21:45:18 <Arc_Koen> so it's exactly the same method as the one we used to solve a polynom in prepschool
21:45:35 <oerjan> and the massive theory gives you the added option of "we can prove this integral has no expression in the functions you know."
21:46:23 <nooodl> "massive theory" sounds like a great band name... but it probably just reminds me of "massive attack"
21:46:37 <nooodl> which also makes it a worse band name
21:47:07 <Bike> imagine massive attack doing a cover of the big bang theory soundtrack
21:47:36 <elliott> oerjan: why is integration terrible
21:47:40 <elliott> derivatives are pretty nice
21:47:48 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risch_algorithm
21:47:50 <elliott> but then there's integration and it's all whoah i cant let this be easy 4 u lol
21:47:56 <elliott> gonna shit all in your symmetry
21:48:08 <oerjan> well i've read the saying "differentiation is a handcraft, integration is an art"
21:48:47 <Bike> i like half-integration
21:48:53 <Bike> i forget how impossible it is, probably p. impossible
21:49:30 <oerjan> istr reading even mathematica doesn't implement the full risch algorithm.
21:49:40 <oerjan> although maybe they've done that later
21:49:42 <Bike> well do you ever need it
21:50:08 <Bike> how often do you want to integrate inverse sine of a polynomial over double exponentiation of inversion
21:50:36 <Arc_Koen> (oerjan: I don't know what you did to my brain, but everyday you use new four~five letter acronyms, and everyday I understand them)
21:50:36 <oerjan> of course mathematica doesn't restrict the answer to elementary functions, which means it cannot use just the Risch algorithm anyhow.
21:50:37 <nooodl> i just looked up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_integrals_of_rational_functions and i feel like vomiting now
21:51:01 <Bike> let me tell you about secant cubed
21:51:21 <nooodl> i can't imagine people using these formulae
21:51:33 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_of_secant_cubed i love that there's a fucking article for this though
21:52:14 <boily> you brought back repressed memories of CÉGEP. I do not thank you.
21:52:43 <Arc_Koen> "classes élémentaires aux grandes écoles préparatoires"?
21:52:54 <Arc_Koen> it sounds like you got the right words but in the wrong order
21:53:10 <oerjan> elliott: on the plus side, _numerical_ integration is easier than numerical differentiation
21:53:59 <oerjan> oh god the housemate and his visitor came _back_ again
21:54:36 <boily> Arc_Koen: Collège d'Enseignement Général Et Professionnel. it goes after high school and before university.
21:55:07 <oerjan> nope. i fear they'll be doing gaming
21:55:22 <oerjan> or maybe movie watching
21:55:23 <boily> a very clever decoy to lead exchange students astray.
21:55:24 <elliott> oerjan: but automatic differentiation is easier still. :(
21:55:52 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i'm pretty sure i've used "istr" many times.
21:56:13 <boily> shachaf: you need to mash the «o» and «e» key really fast together to produce œrjan.
21:56:18 <Arc_Koen> now that you mention it istr so, yes
21:56:21 <nooodl> today i used istr and i think i picked it up here...
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22:00:51 <kmc> hi shachaf
22:00:54 <kmc> where does it rain
22:36:27 <Sgeo> I should go do something interview related
22:36:57 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, I do need to eat dinner
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22:47:50 <nooodl> wow i made a turing machine that implements H9+
22:47:57 <nooodl> and it's a little over 9000 states
22:48:29 <oerjan> <boily> `learn bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object.
22:48:37 <oerjan> i think you conflagrated another word there
22:49:02 <Bike> ooh is that where you make a portmanteau and then light it on fire
22:49:32 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/show/J1D5SWaK8h4avDKJr3Mq/ -- works for http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html
22:49:47 <nooodl> oerjan: at first i thought "ugh Q is going to be hard" but now that i think about it it should be fun
22:50:28 <oerjan> nooodl: wait, 9000 states?
22:50:31 <nooodl> anyway, the only reason i wrote this is: prove that a UTM can execute a H9+ program (read: copy one of two strings based on some input symbols)
22:51:03 <oerjan> > length "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. take one down, pass it around, 99 bottles of beer on the wall!" * 100
22:51:22 <oerjan> i guess that _is_ shorter than just writing it directly :P
22:51:53 <oerjan> wait, you _did_ just insert the whole text? :P
22:52:11 <nooodl> how else did you expect it to become 9000 states big :o
22:52:24 <oerjan> i was wondering if it was plausible without it
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22:53:04 <nooodl> anyway, removing the spaces is just an annoying thing i had to do because this javascript turing machine simulator doesn't differentiate between an "ascii space" symbol and blank symbol
22:53:41 <nooodl> i kinda want to add this to the http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters chain, behind "UTM"
22:54:34 <oerjan> wait you mean i started this.
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22:56:45 <oerjan> i just added that chain yesterday :P
22:56:53 <nooodl> someone linked it in here today
22:57:17 <nooodl> i was gonna extend it by implenting unefunge in something, but it felt like a lot of work
22:57:21 <nooodl> so i did this instead!
22:57:58 <oerjan> yeah as a general rule the chains stop because the things on the left are too hard to implement, and the things on the right are too hard to implement anything with :)
22:58:12 <nooodl> i don't know if i should append this to the chain
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22:59:10 <nooodl> also an idea: there's been basic -> brainfuck converters or something, haven't there? that might be a way to insert something between brainfuck and bub
22:59:22 <oerjan> hm that Bub -> UTM link is broken, it's one of Nthern's ones.
22:59:39 <oerjan> nooodl: well we only count esolangs in that table
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23:00:36 <nooodl> so, implementing anything as a turing machine isn't an option
23:00:45 <nooodl> because there isn't an "UTM" row?
23:00:58 <oerjan> we consider UTM's close enough.
23:01:10 <oerjan> however i assume it's just using his Bub converter on the BF -> UTM conversion
23:01:30 <oerjan> which means it's the same as the whirl ones, which have strikethroughs
23:02:01 <oerjan> nooodl: a more serious problem is that what's implemented is _a_ universal turing machine, not all turing machines directly.
23:02:43 <oerjan> which should, admittedly be just a matter of inserting an extra step, by the definition of universal turing machine.
23:03:45 <nooodl> maybe "UTM" shouldn't be on this page at all
23:03:53 <nooodl> because it's not really a language
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23:05:06 <nooodl> a flogscript implementation of unefunge is "really easy" but it'd just take some time. writing flogscript is annoying as hell
23:05:22 <nooodl> solution: get zzo38 to do it
23:07:25 <oerjan> so far the only cycle is the Bub -> Brainfuck one, which basically exists because the languages are nearly trivially equivalent and brainfuck has a self-interpreter.
23:09:24 <oerjan> another idea i just had was if there were a fueue interpretation in unlambda, then that would give a longer path from intercal.
23:09:56 <ais523> unlambda isn't hard to write
23:09:59 <ais523> it's just a pain to read or eit
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23:10:32 <ais523> most write-only language I know
23:11:41 <oerjan> oh hm unlambda isn't good at handling bytes.
23:13:06 <oerjan> oh i forgot to add the Emmental -> Underload one...
23:13:12 <ais523> indeed, although you can get around it using ASCII tables
23:13:40 <oerjan> you need those for I/O anyway.
23:13:41 <ais523> does fueue deal with ascii codes?
23:14:07 <ais523> something like underload in unlambda wouldn't need an ASCII table, because you can treat characters as opaque values in unlambda
23:14:27 <oerjan> indeed. i've been considering underload in unlambda before.
23:14:51 <ais523> I'm not sure that unlambda programs are so interesting
23:14:54 <ais523> programming /techniques/ are
23:15:08 <ais523> but given that you can't read them, there's not a lot of benefit to them existing
23:15:11 <ais523> except to prove a point
23:15:40 * Sgeo renames Trustfuck to Braintrust
23:15:42 <nooodl> i hear unlambda is a lot like lazy k
23:16:00 <oerjan> Sgeo: REFLECTIONS ON FUCKING FUCK, I SAID
23:16:22 <nooodl> and there's kind of a scheme -> lazy k converter, apparently
23:16:37 <oerjan> there's a scheme -> unlambda too
23:17:37 <nooodl> (is that what ais523 meant by unlambda being "easy to write")
23:17:53 <ais523> nooodl: yeah, it's easy to compile into
23:18:01 <ais523> even by hand, as long as you don't make typos
23:18:09 <ais523> (because it's unreadable, if you do make a typo, you're unlikely to ever find it)
23:18:16 <shachaf> It's also easy to compile from!
23:18:21 <shachaf> Therefore readable. Right?
23:20:45 <nooodl> The combinatory representation, (S (K (S I)) (S (K K) I)) is much longer than the representation as a lambda term, λx.λy.(y x). This is typical. In general, the T[ ] construction may expand a lambda term of length n to a combinatorial term of length Θ(3n)[citation needed].
23:21:03 <nooodl> (whoops, that's Theta(3^n))
23:21:12 <nooodl> anyway who wrote this, ugh
23:21:48 <nooodl> do lambda terms even have a "length"
23:23:03 <Bike> you could define a half-reasonable one, i guess, or just use textual length
23:23:45 <oerjan> nooodl: if you're going _really_ deep, there's a way to do it linearly instead
23:25:28 <oerjan> (pass the arguments as a list, and refer them by indexing the list with the deBruijn index)
23:26:59 <oerjan> nooodl: any half-reasonable one will be the same when you ignore constant factors, as theta does.
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23:28:25 <oerjan> of course much of the design of my unlambda self-interpreter was how to factor functions into bits that _didn't_ combinatorially blow up.
23:29:05 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:30:47 <Sgeo> ^list is for MSPA
23:32:11 <shachaf> Well, please arrange for an olist update.
23:33:09 <Sgeo> `echo bin/slist
23:33:17 <Sgeo> `cat bin/slist
23:33:25 <Sgeo> I should fix that
23:33:47 <shachaf> Who vandaliszed the liszt?
23:33:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, a while ago, iir`
23:34:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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23:36:04 <Sgeo> yes I can http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/16641639a4cf
23:36:39 <Sgeo> I don't know how to revert :(
23:36:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rv: not found
23:37:08 <elliott> that reverts the entire hackego state.
23:37:38 <elliott> undo undoes a single commit.
23:41:33 <HackEgo> patching file slist \ Hunk #1 FAILED at 1. \ 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file slist.rej
23:42:18 <Sgeo> `echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist
23:42:20 <HackEgo> "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist
23:42:33 <Sgeo> `run echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist
23:43:38 <shachaf> Sgeo: We don't do lists that way anymore...
23:44:18 <shachaf> `run for n in Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot; do echo $n >> bin/slist; done
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