00:05:14 <Sgeo> It makes me feel funny that AngularJS is some sort of pseudo-HTML
00:06:23 <kmc> looks a lot like any of a bajillion other HTML template languages
00:06:28 <Sgeo> Also, it looks like it wouldn't play nice with server-side things that attempt to insert plaintext and do escaping for you... hmm.... looks like XSS possibilties if you attempt to output AngularJS code from serverside
00:06:30 <Bike> some kind of......... markup language
00:06:52 <Sgeo> kmc, it's clientside though
00:07:12 <kmc> a) there are plenty of
00:07:18 <kmc> client side template systems
00:07:19 * Sgeo tends to think of HTML templating as a server-side thing
00:07:33 <kmc> b) in 2013 you need to get comfortable with the idea that the client is a VM running a program
00:09:14 <kmc> the traditional client/server webapp architecture kinda sucks anyway
00:09:29 <kmc> much nicer to implement an API on the server, which can be used by many clients
00:09:41 <kmc> and one of those clients happens to be a totally static blob of HTML/JS/CSS that you can serve up
00:10:34 <Sgeo> Doesn't work too well with people using NoScript though
00:11:46 <kmc> it's hard to write programs for someone who has disabled the ability of their computer to run programs
00:11:57 <kmc> anyway you can provide both
00:12:13 <kmc> the server-side backend of the NoScript app can be an API client like everything else
00:13:37 <kmc> the NoScript client and the rich web client will necessarily be pretty different
00:13:44 <kmc> because the latter can do a lot of things client-side and instantaneously
00:13:49 <kmc> that the former requires a server round trip for
00:14:03 <kmc> you end up implementing the functionality twice anyway, so might as well separate it nicely
00:15:46 <elliott> the need to write code for both "backends" there is just an artefact of how low-level the web is imo
00:16:00 <kmc> and also an Android backend in Java and an iPhone backend in ObjC
00:16:35 <kmc> er frontend whatever
00:16:42 <elliott> like there is no reason you couldn't have one codebase that adapts to how fast replies are expected to be
00:16:51 <kmc> elliott: if your backend is JS-like then you can at least share some code
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00:16:56 <kmc> elliott: yeah, that's kinda like how Meteor works
00:17:22 <kmc> everything looks like the web client code is directly accessing a database
00:17:31 <kmc> the client transparently caches part of that database
00:17:44 <elliott> in particular you want JS code generation for this
00:17:49 <elliott> but that's good because it means you get to not write JS
00:17:53 <kmc> if you want to force something to run server side, it's still the same language and same APIs
00:18:01 <kmc> also authentication works somehow but I don't know how
00:18:16 <kmc> also if something changes in the database, it automatically gets pushed out to those client caches & updates the DOM
00:18:35 <kmc> the last part is also something Quora's LiveNode does
00:18:42 <kmc> they have server side templating I think
00:18:52 <kmc> but whenever they render some HTML, they remember which SQL queries went into determining it
00:18:58 <kmc> and if those things change they push new HTML out to you
00:19:01 <elliott> another thing is that since page history APIs exist now, if a browser supports JS then there is basically no reason to ever do a full page load when you can avoid downloading all the surrounding site design crap and just insert the new page in place
00:19:09 <elliott> I had these thoughts when considering rewriting the esowiki's software
00:19:14 <elliott> which of course I bikeshedded to oblivion
00:20:53 <pikhq> elliott: Friend of mine is actually working on doing this for his company's website.
00:21:38 <pikhq> Because, for various reasons, he's been working pretty hard on making the thing load as quickly and smoothly as possible.
00:21:43 <elliott> the nice thing is that it should be easy to just send down a diff of the DOM or such rather than actually coding this update logic by hand
00:21:56 <elliott> but again you need a higher-level thing than what all web programming is done in to do this automatically
00:22:01 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, he's actually already done this.
00:25:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it was actually going to try and be as much like mediawiki as possible
00:25:53 <elliott> just because i hate maintaining a mediawiki install that much
00:26:36 <elliott> it's literally like a major version behind
00:26:41 <elliott> because my "upgrade workflow" broke
00:27:02 <Bike> so we can't write a wiki cyclic tag interpreter in embedded lua is what you're saying
00:28:10 <elliott> wow guys do you remember beinga ble to type
00:28:56 <elliott> Bike: don't you remember being 12 and always using totally correct punctuation and shit
00:29:14 <Bike> i don't think i had a computer when i was twelve
00:29:47 <Bike> or if i did i was using it for Putt Putt or some shit
00:29:56 <monqy> putt putt at 12???
00:30:11 <Bike> also i don't remember the normal ages for games
00:30:12 <elliott> spy fox was the fucking greatest
00:30:57 <elliott> i'm glad we have consensus
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00:38:36 <hagb4rd> <elliott>the nice thing is that it should be easy to just send down a diff of the DOM or such rather than actually coding this update logic by hand <== well, i wouldn't send the DOM transformations but just update the ViewModel of a page.. as it's recommended by the MVVM design pattern. And for the transformations of the DOM you could _observe_ the client.side ViewModel! there are several JS libs providing observable
00:38:36 <hagb4rd> bindings sparing you a lot of eventhandling and backgroundworking.. like knockout.js
00:42:25 <hagb4rd> so you implement the domainn tier server side and provide a light webservice interface, which handles the communication between the ViewModel (client) and the BusinessModel (server).. i prefer JSON and REST rather than the haevier XML/SOAP stories
00:43:15 <oerjan> i'm sorry but this is _definitely_ too enterprisey to be on topic in this channel.
00:43:42 <Bike> enterprise lambda calculus
00:45:03 <kmc> i had to argue with someone who wanted to use "REST" to mean basically "not SOAP"
00:45:21 <kmc> for an API which, though lightweight and JSON-based, was not remotely RESTful
00:49:52 <hagb4rd> well, ok.. i guess you could argue on that (not splitting hairs on the definition of REST architecture) and reach consesus and understanding in single meeting
00:50:12 <hagb4rd> one must try hard to fail on that
00:52:48 <hagb4rd> i mean.. if you read the wiki article, and unterstand the few restrictions and ideas you're ready to go.. you probably will do, if you already have some experience on the SOA issue
00:52:54 <ion> kmc: Oh, wow.
00:53:02 <hagb4rd> and begin to love the less is more idea
00:53:23 * ion starts using “Haskell” to mean basically “not PHP”.
00:53:51 <Bike> haskell pipertext processor
00:55:06 <Bike> http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/piper/text.html good poem, i recited it once
00:58:00 <elliott> only works with british pronunciation
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00:59:58 <oerjan> hm random page gave me http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk_talk:Turing_tarpit is that supposed to happen?
01:00:21 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:00:49 <oerjan> perhaps it actually counts that as in Main:
01:01:12 <elliott> see also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Talk_talk:Turing_tarpit
01:06:48 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hagb4rd|brb.
01:08:25 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: yes this will definitely be a language someday
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01:14:15 <FreeFull> (((((()))(()()))((()())((()))))((((()))(()))((())((()))))((((())))(((()()))))(((()())((()())))(((()()))(())))((((())((()())))((()()))))(((((()())))((()()))))((((()))))(()())(())(())(()()))
01:15:51 <Sgeo> <insert inane joke about Lisp here>
01:15:54 <monqy> wow freefull you know ursala too??
01:16:20 <zzo38> Is there some library in C to run Verilog programs and can be used with other programs?
01:16:45 * Sgeo wants a simple Scheme-like language on which it's convenient to build esolangs off of
01:16:54 <Sgeo> "Scheme like except has this function" for instance
01:17:12 <monqy> have you tried banana scheme
01:17:19 <monqy> alt. analogy to awful brainfuck derivatives
01:17:26 <monqy> alt. is this about trustfuck(trustscheme?)
01:17:44 <Sgeo> yes it's about trustfuck
01:18:25 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Memfractal
01:18:28 <monqy> i forget, did you rename it to braintrust so you could put it on your resume? how did that go
01:18:53 <Bike> so just uh, write a scheme, i guess? it's pretty easy if you don't ccare about stupid things like numbers
01:18:56 <FreeFull> I think + is a bit underdefined
01:18:58 <Sgeo> I renamed it to Braintrust, it's not on resume, but during interview I mentioned that I had projects not listed on resume, he asked for one, and I mentioned Braintrust
01:19:34 <monqy> and how did that go
01:20:21 <Sgeo> I was hired, so I assume that went well
01:22:58 <Sgeo> I agree with FreeFull
01:23:07 <Sgeo> How do you access the copy? Entering the +?
01:23:12 <Sgeo> Where do you end up?
01:23:49 <Sgeo> I'm not even sure what the arrows mean/do
01:25:37 <Sgeo> I think a new Trust language should just have an easy way to make a quine
01:25:56 <oerjan> ah i recall memfractal. i believe it works in the obvious way hth.
01:26:32 <oerjan> as in, should be obvious if you know what a fractal is.
01:26:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe I didn't make it clear. The ^v<> are entry/exit points.
01:27:31 <Sgeo> ..Oh, I think I see
01:27:40 <Sgeo> When you enter a copy, you come out the side you just entered
01:27:50 <oerjan> also, i must stop assuming people share my idea of what things are obvious.
01:27:50 <Sgeo> So hit + from the right you enter the new copy from the <
01:28:02 <Sgeo> But where does the top level one come from/
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01:28:56 <oerjan> that does indeed seem unspecified
01:29:04 <zzo38> It is not indicated where the top level one come from; maybe it should be
01:29:06 <oerjan> by analogy with befunge, i'd assume >
01:31:53 <Sgeo> So, to use + as a memory cell, you make coming from (say) right the memory test, coming from top is 1 coming from bottom is 0
01:32:02 <Sgeo> And coming from left is regular program usage
01:32:13 <Sgeo> This allows for a bounded amount of memory
01:32:48 <Sgeo> I don't see a way to build any sort of addressing scheme, at least not immediately.... hm
01:32:59 <Sgeo> I see something, but not sure how many sides it requires
01:35:12 <Sgeo> Needs to be a prefix-free code.
01:35:19 <Sgeo> 0 means just use local memory
01:35:26 <Sgeo> erm, as in, return immediately.
01:36:27 <Sgeo> After that, a cell can get multiple bits by returning and storing the address so far, then the client asks for more
01:38:52 <Sgeo> We can send a + a 0, 1, or 2. (3 is assumed to be the start of the program)
01:40:18 <oerjan> oh hm i think maybe there _shouldn't_ be a particular direction of entering a program. instead the program input is a sequence of ^v<> 's that are used for entering, and the output is simultaneously the sequence of exits.
01:40:42 <oerjan> s/simultaneously/similarly/
01:41:25 <Sgeo> Wouldn't each piece of output be independent of each other
01:41:32 <Sgeo> Every thing in the input is a separate execution
01:41:40 <Sgeo> Although that does make it convenient to test things, I guess
01:41:43 <oerjan> no, because you remember the bits of the subprograms
01:42:47 <oerjan> alternatively you could encode input as the initial pattern of bits set somehow
01:44:29 <Sgeo> Ok, so address 0 is "What is your bit"
01:46:39 <oerjan> btw memfractal looks like it can be compiled, there are only a few possible control paths
01:47:11 <Sgeo> What's the difference between a compiler and an interpreter glued to some input?
01:47:49 <Sgeo> Because my implementation for my 'compiled' language is really an interpreter glued to some input
01:47:54 <oerjan> by "compiled" i mean that you don't have to work directly on the 2-dimensional program.
01:48:14 <oerjan> since it doesn't actually change
01:50:26 <Sgeo> I'm trying to think how you could compile a Boolfuck-like thing to Memfractal
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01:50:48 <Sgeo> Obvious is where the memory for the tape comes from. Not obvious is where each instruction gets encoded
01:51:01 <oerjan> it seems tricky to get room for the [] flow control
01:51:54 <oerjan> on the one hand you can have as many + as you want, on the other they all must work identically
01:52:16 <Sgeo> You can give input to a +
01:52:25 <Sgeo> So maybe the input encodes whether to... do... something
01:55:44 <oerjan> you can also hopefully have some of the +'s be used only for added local state for the surrounding one
01:56:46 <oerjan> oh, also memfractal is reversible, this tends to awkwardize things.
01:57:53 <oerjan> (i don't think we ever found out how to use backflip in a convenient way, ais523's derivatives notwithstanding)
01:58:59 <Sgeo> I should look at that
02:01:16 <oerjan> backflip is really elegant, yet incomprehensible
02:02:12 <Sgeo> I love ambiguous acronyms.
02:03:14 <oerjan> indeed not. but it still might have an intuitive way of doing computation which we haven't found yet, and which could be TC if you say allowed infinite setup
02:05:33 <Sgeo> I don't understand why it doesn't have infinite loops
02:06:03 <Sgeo> Oh, guess can't put an always-reflecting mirror at the entrance, and... it will always end up at the entrance if not halted elsewhere?
02:08:55 <oerjan> it's a general property of any reversible finite state system that it cannot go into an infinite loop unless it started in it
02:08:57 <Sgeo> Maybe we should look for a storage device in Memfractal
02:09:18 <Sgeo> Similar to ABCDXYZ
02:10:02 <oerjan> maybe. i felt that the control flow was the real problem in backflip.
02:10:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, no, any device would have to comprise most of the program
02:10:27 <Sgeo> Most you could do was say "Ok, here's the section of the program where you can do your own unique stuff"
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02:17:06 <oerjan> one property of memfractal that doesn't have an analogue in backflip is that if you leave a block by the same exit that you entered, you have to retrace your steps backwards until you hit that block again
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02:23:38 <oerjan> this means that for useful computation, you _never_ want to leave a block by the same exit the first time
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02:59:01 <Sgeo> Reversible computing both interests and confuses me
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03:07:57 * Sgeo wonders if Phantom_Hoover would like The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi
03:09:01 <Sgeo> Although "the one in the school" seems like it's probably ambiguous
03:09:05 <Sgeo> But it is in a school
03:09:09 <Sgeo> Except when it isn't, I guess
03:09:32 <pikhq> Being set in a school is so common for anime it's practically cliche.
03:09:42 <Bike> definitely not practically
03:09:58 <Bike> *use-mention distinction
03:14:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:33:37 * Sgeo wonders if PMMM is on crunchyroll
03:36:51 <Fiora> http://www.nyaa.eu/?page=torrentinfo&tid=386505
03:38:36 <elliott> #esoteric's secret quest to cram as much logged illegality into 24 hours as possible
03:39:16 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
03:48:35 <Bike> kinda want to take salvia while watching pirated medukas now
03:49:08 <elliott> wouldn't it help to pick an actually illegal drug
03:49:11 <elliott> or is salvia illegal where you are
03:52:03 <Bike> you know i'm not sure
03:52:06 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen).
03:52:20 <Bike> maybe i could just get some child porn and burn it and get high off the ashes mixed with salvia?
03:54:43 <elliott> you could try killing someone also
03:55:14 <pikhq> I couldn't even smoke marijuana illegally.
03:57:16 <kmc> why's that
03:57:22 -!- zzo38 has left.
03:57:51 <pikhq> Guess I'll have to settle for blackjack and hookers.
04:01:47 <kmc> why did i think you were in finland
04:01:52 <kmc> i know why
04:02:09 <kmc> is it legal to buy and sell as well?
04:02:57 <Bike> if it's like washington there's a whole licensed dispensary system
04:03:17 <Bike> not sure how that works since it's still federally illegal, but whatever
04:04:07 <elliott> guys i think we scared zzo away
04:04:13 <pikhq> kmc: It's not *yet* legal to buy and sell, but that's a matter of the regulations pending.
04:04:45 <kmc> CO has had medical marijuana for a while.... maybe those same dispensaries will start selling to the general public?
04:04:57 <pikhq> Basically, the state has a few months to decide precisely how to regulate recreational marijuana.
04:05:03 <kmc> and yeah it's federally illegal, and in CA as well, and the various other states with MMJ
04:05:25 <kmc> sometimes the feds get in a mood to go busting dispensaries and sometimes they stay away
04:05:32 <Bike> like what does that mean though, the DEA just.. oh, well, okay
04:05:35 <kmc> medical michael jackson
04:05:36 <Bike> good legal system we have
04:06:03 <kmc> Bike: the great thing about a country where everything is illegal is that the actual power of the law is vested not in legislatures or judges but in enforcement agencies and prosecutors
04:06:23 <kmc> so it's all about, did you piss someone off, do they want to make an example of you
04:06:48 <Bike> it's still weird to think about
04:07:06 <kmc> i can't remember the most recent official word from obama regarding medical marijuana as an enforcement priority
04:07:20 <kmc> i think they decided to lay off but not sure
04:07:40 <kmc> with legalization in WA and CO, they might crack down to prove a point there
04:07:42 <elliott> obama more like... maybebama
04:07:47 <kmc> power is sort of, use it or lose it
04:08:07 <Bike> what would even be the point? insofar as the drug war even has a point it's screaming about cartels, which is hardly relevant to growing your own
04:08:11 <Bike> am i just not cynical enough
04:09:05 <kmc> the drug war exists to perpetuate the organizations which prosecute it
04:09:12 <kmc> militarized police, the DEA, the prison system
04:09:19 <kmc> and the cartels
04:09:36 <Bike> well, that just makes me wonder why it started
04:09:40 <Bike> can i just blame reagan
04:09:53 <kmc> partially but marijuana was banned long before him
04:10:00 <kmc> it started as a moral panic against the mexicans and the negro jazz musicians
04:10:02 <Bike> those damn jazzists
04:10:06 <elliott> the drug war actually only exists to keep people distracted from chemtrails
04:10:14 <elliott> (im not being serious please dont use this against me in the future)
04:10:21 <kmc> that's why it's called "marijuana" in the USA and "cannabis" everywhere else
04:10:22 <Bike> 420 blaze the towers?
04:10:31 <Bike> kmc: oh damn, for real
04:10:52 <kmc> in fact I'm told that when the drug was banned, very few people understood that this devil weed "marijuana" was the same ordinary hemp crop that every farmer had growing in their fields
04:11:36 <Bike> you know what's weird about hemp? they make milk out of it. that's weird
04:11:58 <shachaf> do they call it hilk or helk
04:12:15 <Bike> helk, it's a new age thing
04:12:36 <shachaf> I ain't a hilk! / I'm a gnu.
04:12:54 <shachaf> I hain't a hilk! / I'm a gnu.
04:13:01 <shachaf> I hain't a helk! / I'm a gnu.
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04:16:33 <ion> I’d like to interject for just a moment.
04:25:10 <kmc> Bike: you can make anything out of hemp and sell it to hippies and wannabe hippie-yuppies
04:25:37 <Bike> yeah, but i wouldn't know about it if it didn't show up at the food bank of all places.
04:32:01 <kmc> that is odd
04:32:22 <kmc> unfortunately # wannabe hippie-yuppies >> # hippies these days :(
04:32:30 <Bike> people donate the weirdest shit, though.
04:33:00 <Bike> sure, i have a tub of frozen steak. no you can't ask me why or why it's in a tub. no i don't need a receipt you don't need my name. bye!
04:35:07 <kmc> did you process donations at a food bank?
04:35:20 <Bike> the foodbank is being clandestinely used by the salvia cartles, who freeze it into meat
04:35:24 <Bike> yeah, we get donations all the time.
04:35:58 <Bike> obviously people's donations are a pretty minor part of what we give out though. Plus it's usually bizarre or way out of date.
04:36:21 <Sgeo> Is it reasonable to reject a gaming computer CPU if it doesn't have VT-x because I want virtualization just as a toy?
04:36:31 <kmc> virtualization is fucking useful
04:36:44 <kmc> which processors don't have it? aren't they really low-end anyway?
04:36:47 <Sgeo> But I don't have a use for it other than messing around
04:36:51 <Fiora> The super high end unlocked ones don't have it either, I think
04:36:53 <Fiora> market segmentation thing
04:36:56 <pikhq> No, but it's reasonable to reject a gaming computer CPU for not having VT-x because *seriously what fucking chip are you buying, a Dorito?*
04:37:10 <Sgeo> Ok, so they mostly all have it, ok
04:37:15 <kmc> you could back up your whole hard drive on a floppy diskette / you're the biggest joke on the internet
04:37:22 <Fiora> http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/haswell_cpu_lineup.jpg like I saw this the other day
04:37:28 * pikhq nods sagely at kmc
04:37:30 <Sgeo> My computer from 2001 didn't have VT-x I think
04:37:31 <Fiora> the "K" CPUs are missing "VT-d"
04:37:40 <Sgeo> I used it until maybe 2007 or so
04:37:42 <pikhq> You have your own newsgroup / alt.total.luser
04:37:50 <kmc> VT-d is different though
04:38:08 <kmc> i think it's the IOMMU virtualization thing
04:38:10 <Sgeo> I am vaguely thinking of putting XenClient on the machine and putting OSes on top of that
04:38:15 <Fiora> they're different? @_@ oh geez
04:38:15 <kmc> lets you route a physical ethernet card to a VM, for example
04:38:46 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure you can do that without it, it's just more CPU-intensive.
04:38:50 <Sgeo> Windows for games and Linux for everything else, without rebooting to switch between them
04:38:51 <pikhq> Might also need Xen.
04:38:56 <kmc> yeah, and/or less secure
04:38:57 <Bike> is vt-x in cpuinfo somewhere, i want to see how hard i lack it
04:39:02 <kmc> it's called vmx i think
04:39:20 <pikhq> Bike: Is your computer 4 years old or newer?
04:39:31 <kmc> AMD's is called svm
04:39:35 <pikhq> If so, is your computer using an Atom CPU?
04:39:37 <Bike> probably not, but it's also an Atom
04:39:56 <Bike> i suspect one of the processors is in fact a dorito.
04:40:00 <Bike> one of the cores*
04:40:06 <Fiora> that must be the uncore
04:40:20 <pikhq> Yeah, the Atom doesn't have it I don't think.
04:40:21 <kmc> haunted 'ghost cores'
04:40:35 <kmc> brutally killed with a laser at the factory, they haunt your data forevermore
04:41:22 <Fiora> intel cpus are powered by the ghosts of murdered silicon -- buy amd!
04:42:12 <Bike> now i want a horror film called "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt"
04:42:14 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
04:42:26 <kmc> Fear Uncertainity and Doubt in Las Vegas
04:42:45 <Bike> subtitled The Microsoft Story
04:42:49 <Sgeo> Ooh there's such a thing as All-In-One computers
04:42:50 <Bike> about Ballmer's adventures while very high
04:42:56 <Sgeo> Maybe there's enough room here for one of those
04:43:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yeah, um, computers have gotten kinda crazy lately.
04:43:47 <kmc> Sgeo: that's with monitor built in?
04:43:52 <Sgeo> kmc, I think so
04:44:05 <Sgeo> Why does /r/buildapc seem to have a Microcenter fetish?
04:44:14 <kmc> i'm suspicious of those
04:44:29 <pikhq> You can actually get really tiny and cheap x86 systems these days.
04:44:35 <pikhq> Yay, $50 Atom boards.
04:44:45 <kmc> you can get a 'nettop' or 'booksize' computer and a separate monitor and it'll take up the same space, plus you can upgrade one or the other
04:44:48 <kmc> maybe the specs are worse though
04:45:02 <pikhq> Might not matter though.
04:45:17 <kmc> do the all-in-one machines actually have good monitors
04:45:35 <kmc> meh i'm spoiled monitor-wise though
04:45:38 <kmc> probably fine
04:46:05 * Sgeo wonders if 3d monitors are worth it
04:46:33 <kmc> jesus that's a thing now? i mean of course it is, but still
04:47:14 <pikhq> In more words, no no no no no.
04:47:37 <Sgeo> red-cyan glasses suck, cross-eyed sucks
04:47:56 <Sgeo> Also maybe the monitor will make 3d games that wouldn't particularly support that kind of thing support it?
04:48:22 <Sgeo> My normal glasses are like 3d glasses for reality...
04:49:44 <kmc> that's the most stonertastic thing that's been said here in a while
04:51:50 <Sgeo> They are! They're not necessary for me to see what's going on, they just make things look nicer and pop out
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05:03:18 <kmc> that's how it is for me sort of
05:03:25 <kmc> also needed for reading far away things
05:05:01 <Fiora> I need mine for not being blind
05:05:47 <pikhq> Stuff's kinda fuzzy but I can *see* without glasses.
05:05:57 <pikhq> But I can't read my monitor without them.
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05:07:29 <zzo38> Is it possible to design a computer with CF cards?
05:07:41 <zzo38> Somebody said it isn't.
05:08:03 <pikhq> Why wouldn't it be possible?
05:08:27 <kmc> it's quite easy -- CF and PATA are compatible electrically
05:08:30 <kmc> all you need is a pin adapter
05:08:40 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is what I thought.
05:08:47 <kmc> although some CF cards can't do DMA and are slow
05:08:58 <kmc> that was the ill fate of my attempt to have an SSD laptop in 2006 this way
05:09:17 <zzo38> What is SSD laptop?
05:09:25 <kmc> a laptop with an SSD instead of a hard drive
05:09:26 <pikhq> You can go crazier still.
05:09:48 <pikhq> PATA is also electrically compatible with ISA.
05:09:50 <zzo38> What is "SSD", though?
05:10:54 <zzo38> When I am designing the computer, I intend to have both CompactFlash and hard drives, as well as optical drive.
05:11:06 <pikhq> Solid state drive.
05:11:08 <kmc> "solid state drive"
05:11:39 <kmc> typically, a SATA storage device using flash memory, which has the same form factor as a laptop hard drive and is fast enough to be one's primary / boot disk
05:11:44 <kmc> indeed much much faster than spinny disks
05:12:42 <Sgeo> My right eye has good vision but my left eye gets fuzzy at distance even short distances
05:12:47 <kmc> so, say, an SD card would not get called an SSD, even though you could run your whole system off of it, and it might be fast
05:12:51 <pikhq> Mine are equally bad.
05:12:58 <kmc> pikhq: huh, I didn't know it's ISA compatible, weird / cool
05:13:38 <elliott> and i've been staring at computer screens since i was 3
05:13:38 <kmc> hm so how hard is it to talk to a PATA hard drive from an Arduino or whatever? probably actually fairly easy
05:13:44 <zzo38> I need glasses for far away
05:13:46 <pikhq> Yeah. The history of the bus is literally just that Western Digital moved the controller board to the bottom of the hard drive.
05:13:52 <Bike> indeed elliott, let us mock the inferior race
05:13:58 <kmc> yeah this has been done
05:14:01 <zzo38> Yes, we'all weird, including you
05:14:18 <kmc> you all saw http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bit right
05:14:47 <kmc> Linux running [*] on an ATmega1284
05:15:04 <Bike> what an exciting footnote that must be.
05:15:07 <zzo38> But I make the design much simpler so that it does not have to load so much from the hard disk to boot, using BIOS to boot, mostly, rather than hard disk.
05:15:08 <elliott> Bike: the race of bad eye people
05:15:25 <zzo38> And even then you don't need as many files as Windows or Linux, so it is faster due to that, too.
05:15:30 <Bike> i'm pretty sure eugenicists have wanted them all to die at some point and that's basically what makes you a "race" so!
05:15:36 <elliott> i guess my eyesight will probably go bad sometime
05:15:54 <Bike> better get our superiority in now
05:16:09 <zzo38> Bike: Is that why they call it the "human race"?
05:16:11 <elliott> Bike: do bicycles even have glasses
05:16:30 <Bike> elliott: uh yes how do you think we pick up hipsters
05:16:41 <Bike> zzo38: eugenicists tend to be somewhat misanthropic, yes.
05:16:57 <elliott> Bike: why would you want to!!
05:17:21 <Bike> where do you think bikes get our sustenance? just pedaling? i need meat.
05:18:40 <zzo38> Well, my opinion is that human dignity is not the most important things in the universe; how does that make me?
05:19:37 <Bike> That's not enough information to determine if you're misanthropic.
05:19:45 <zzo38> I didn't think so.
05:19:58 <Bike> Maybe you don't think human dignity is that important but you still think humans are pretty cool. Maybe you'd still have a beer with us sometime or shoot the shit.
05:20:37 <zzo38> Actually I don't drink alcohol, and I don't know what "shoot the shit" is.
05:20:53 <zzo38> But I kind of understand you, a little bit.
05:21:02 <Bike> Shoot the shit, you know. Chill. Hang.
05:21:13 <Bike> Do you like moseying?
05:21:40 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/05/24
05:21:49 <Bike> We cool, zzo38. We cool.
05:23:39 <lambdabot> *** "mosey" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:23:39 <lambdabot> v 1: walk leisurely [syn: {amble}, {mosey}]
05:23:51 <shachaf> is leisurely an adj. or an adv.
05:23:56 <zzo38> Well, I found it in Wiktionary, the same things
05:24:07 <lambdabot> *** "leisurely" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:24:07 <lambdabot> adv 1: in an unhurried way or at one's convenience; "read the
05:24:07 <lambdabot> manual at your leisure"; "he traveled leisurely" [syn:
05:24:11 <lambdabot> adj 1: not hurried or forced; "an easy walk around the block";
05:24:13 <lambdabot> "at a leisurely (or easygoing) pace" [syn: {easy},
05:24:27 <Bike> related: http://media.tumblr.com/ca94f121e29dfdf9d2a4ea79ee369ffd/tumblr_inline_mjxbylJCb91qz4rgp.png
05:24:42 <shachaf> Bike: are you in vancouver or something
05:24:50 <lambdabot> *** "literally" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:24:50 <lambdabot> adv 1: in a literal sense; "literally translated"; "he said so
05:24:50 <lambdabot> 2: (intensifier before a figurative expression) without
05:24:52 <lambdabot> exaggeration; "our eyes were literally pinned to TV during
05:24:56 <Bike> I live in the woods north of Vancouver.
05:25:09 <Bike> There are bears.
05:25:17 <kmc> yay autoantonyms
05:25:21 <shachaf> i thought you were a student at uw
05:25:45 <shachaf> Does "autoantonym" also mean "a word which isn't an antonym of itself"?
05:25:59 <Bike> ...oh, well done
05:26:27 <shachaf> Bike: did you read "breakfast of champions""
05:26:42 <shachaf> @ask monqy for forgiveness
05:28:04 <kmc> shachaf: ur quotes mismatched
05:28:25 <shachaf> kmc: its "alrigt"" i already asked monqy for forgiveness
05:28:42 <kmc> is that how this game is played
05:28:42 <Bike> oh god i talked while his quote was open
05:28:48 <Bike> now i'm going to be quoted forever :(
05:31:18 <kmc> double secret probation
05:32:08 <shachaf> today i bought a bunch of vonnebukks
05:33:17 <shachaf> in fac t i bought too many??
05:33:24 <shachaf> maybe ill never read them all
05:37:00 <Bike> did you buy timequake i bet you did
05:37:33 <shachaf> i bought the books that the used bookstore in town had
05:40:17 <elliott> i don't get it Bike. explain.
05:40:23 <Sgeo> Suppose you're severely ill. There's a medical procedure that has a very small chance of saving your life. You are a registered organ donor. If you attempt the procedure and die anyway, your organs will not be usable for organ donation. What do you do?
05:43:11 <Sgeo> But there is an actual situation this could be considered analogous to
05:43:25 <Bike> do you have good reason to believe that someone's response would be indicative of their behavior
05:43:29 <Sgeo> Scratch that. Yes, I am dying, just like everyone else who currently exists.
05:43:45 <kmc> i have a meta-question: how many third world children are going to die of preventable disease while we discuss this moral hypothetical
05:44:23 <Bike> kmc you colonialist! gosh.
05:44:41 <kmc> yeah it's just my cultural imperialist viewpoint that children shouldn't die by shitting themselves inside out
05:47:26 <kmc> fuck, I have 98.4% of Time Trumpet downloaded and it's been stuck there for 2 days
05:48:04 <elliott> the last 1.6% of the time trumpet is inaccessible to mere mortals.
05:48:06 <elliott> you have to find it for yourself
05:48:25 <Sgeo> It was intended to be analogous to cryonics
05:48:34 <Bike> oh for god's sake dude.
05:48:56 <shachaf> "oopse did i just inform Sgeo of that channel"
05:49:12 <Bike> that actually exists doesn't it oh no
05:52:30 <zzo38> I think people should die if they want to do so (but think of it first; there is no going back)
05:52:53 <Bike> He probably thought about it a lot.
05:52:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Irrelevant.
05:54:29 <Sgeo> zzo38, what of a person who currently wants to die but if they take a pill every day they stop wanting to die?
05:54:29 <zzo38> That question is irrelevant.
05:54:49 <shachaf> zzo38: WHAT IF YOU'RE IRRELEVANT............>>>>>!!!!!!!!!
05:55:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: It depends on that person, I guess.
05:55:54 <Sgeo> Uh. Is there a source that is NOT Wikipedia or Wikipedia derived for finding out when a song was released
05:56:10 <Bike> good luck finding anything at all not wikipedia derived, nowadays
05:56:24 <shachaf> before 2001 people literally had no idea when songs were released
05:56:26 <Bike> also you know what also involves taking a pill and death? That short story by Smullyan about epiphenomenalism. Way better.
05:56:51 <Sgeo> Because this Wikipedia page about this song that I thought I heard in 1998 claims it was released in 2000
05:56:51 <shachaf> Bike: An Unfortunate Dualist?
05:57:01 <shachaf> @google an unfortunate dualist
05:57:03 <lambdabot> http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-23-unfortunate-dualist.html
05:57:06 <Bike> yes, that one.
05:57:16 <elliott> what is it with everyone in here and fucking smullyan
05:57:21 <Bike> Sgeo: Might be another version or a cover or something.
05:57:23 <zzo38> I do think "Suppose you're severely ill. There's a medical procedure that..." is up to their individual choice, but I would want to know an estimate of the choice, what things I was intending to do otherwise, my age, its effect on non-human lifeforms and on the environment in general, etc.
05:57:45 <Bike> elliott: have you seen his youtube videos they're so dumb how could anybody not like him
05:57:55 <zzo38> I don't have the book written by Smullyan but I was wanting to have them.
05:58:06 <shachaf> elliott: i never! it's entirely platonic
05:58:26 <Bike> elliott: somehow, no.
05:58:38 <Bike> I think he's like 997 though.
05:59:22 <shachaf> lexande went to a Smullyan talk this year or something.
06:00:51 <Sgeo> Bike, that only works with a belief that the soul does not have write access to the brain
06:01:14 <Sgeo> If the soul had write access to the brain, the dualist could know that he no longer has a soul
06:01:43 <Bike> if the soul has write access to the brain then epiphenomenalism is false
06:01:59 <Bike> so, yes, it does assume that, that is the point.
06:02:27 <elliott> um Bike. i think you'll find nothing has a point.
06:03:10 <zzo38> elliott: Even a circle with one point missing?
06:03:52 <zzo38> Well, I don't believe in Cartesian dualism; I don't think it makes sense.
06:04:06 <Sgeo> Funny, that story doesn't mention epiphenominalism, just dualism
06:04:29 <Bike> oh, maybe i remember it from smullyan's commentary or something.
06:04:45 <Sgeo> I didn't read past the bolded Reflections
06:05:39 <zzo38> I believe in neutral monism, mostly.
06:05:48 <shachaf> I like how you can make a two-dimensional bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
06:06:32 <shachaf> Maybe I should say "proper subset".
06:06:36 <Bike> "What distinguishes neutral monism from its better known monistic rivals is the claim that the intrinsic nature of ultimate reality is neither mental nor physical." wow i suck at metaphysics though
06:07:09 <zzo38> I don't agree with all kinds of neutral monism, though; just in general.
06:08:41 <zzo38> Neutral monism in general is, mental and physical are two ways of organizing some "higher things" (I am kind of paraphrasing Wikipedia).
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06:11:25 <zzo38> I don't think so??
06:11:54 <shachaf> if i only said things which i think so would i even say anything
06:12:00 <Bike> i wonder if someday i will care about metaphysics agagin.
06:13:05 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, yes, you can think of things other than only some things, too; it is good to consider and to discuss it and to figure it out.
06:13:42 <elliott> Bike more like take a hike
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06:14:35 <shachaf> Bike more like ignore elliott he's mean to everyone we all think you're like cool and stuffike
06:15:25 <Bike> i see what you're doing you're playing good cop bad cop
06:15:55 <shachaf> you should come to #haskell where we play good op bad op
06:16:00 <shachaf> except we're both pretty bad at it
06:16:27 <elliott> i've banned two more people than shachaf
06:16:41 <shachaf> elliott is the macbeth of #haskell and i am the hamlet
06:16:42 <Fiora> what mean things are you sayig about elliott :<
06:16:55 <Bike> so who's your uncle
06:16:57 <shachaf> Fiora: elliott is the mean one
06:17:04 <Bike> and... well i don't know macbeth really
06:17:14 <Bike> i think he kills everyone though. that seems elliotty.
06:17:20 <zzo38> Even, this book and that book, are two ways to organize the state of physical matter, which it makes up, even if the books are otherwise identical.
06:17:57 <shachaf> wait am i thinking of macbeth or some other shakespeare person
06:18:54 <elliott> if i am macbeth who is Bike
06:19:09 <Bike> Probably my favorite shakespeare character, Osric.
06:19:30 <Bike> No I want to be played by Robin Williams.
06:19:39 <shachaf> you have to be played by shachaf
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06:20:20 <elliott> pretty sure Bike has to be played by a bicycle.
06:20:20 <Bike> if you're a shakespeare character who's an actor you must be one of the actors in the play Hamlet watches.
06:20:30 <shachaf> Bike can be rosencrantz and guildenstern
06:20:44 <Bike> elliott: In shakespeare's time all the chicks were played by men. This extends to the bicycles. The bicycles are also played by men.
06:20:59 <Bike> All the props are men too.
06:21:08 <Bike> The play is a circus of writhing male flesh.
06:21:28 <shachaf> you got a problem with that...............................
06:23:10 <Fiora> I don't think I'd be a very good actor
06:23:25 <Bike> I don't believe Shakespearian scholarship is advanced enough to ask that question, shachaf.
06:23:25 <Bike> But yes elliott. The original globe theater was made of peasants.
06:23:25 <tswett> : FREE 0 OVER BLOCKFREE! DUP RIGHTBLOCK@ DUP IF DUP BLOCKFREE@ IF DUP RIGHTBLOCK@ ROT 2DUP RIGHTBLOCK! SWAP 2DUP LEFTBLOCK! DROP DUP BLOCKSIZE@ ROT DUP BLOCKSIZE ROT 4 CELLS + + ROT SWAP OVER BLOCKSIZE! DROP THEN THEN (...)
06:23:25 <shachaf> is that like the woman who cooks carrots and peas in the same pot
06:23:25 <tswett> I can read every single one of those words.
06:23:26 <Bike> Forth looks very exciting.
06:23:38 <shachaf> Fiora: That's OK, you're not playing an actor.
06:24:57 * Fiora pokes shachaf's nose
06:24:57 <zzo38> If I make the computer, it will be including Forth. Also including BASIC, since many programs in books are written in BASIC.
06:25:08 <elliott> Bike: don't you mean pheasanrs
06:31:36 <shachaf> Fiora: I'm not a very good actor either, I just play one on stage.
06:32:06 <kmc> fungot should have a mode to generate forth programs
06:32:07 <fungot> kmc: i don't disagree that professors tend to guard their time. i just found.
06:32:54 <shachaf> fungot is a ""serial entrepreneur"
06:32:55 <fungot> shachaf: killer annotated 8676 with " rambaby " lamer" sucks!" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord what do you have
06:33:11 <tswett> http://pastie.org/6635890 - comments removed because comments are lame.
06:33:40 <shachaf> tswett: uhh fungot just told you to use http://paste.lisp.org/
06:33:40 <fungot> shachaf: at least it's very expensive) workaround to that, but as those fields are used a lot of this stuff
06:34:11 <tswett> Yeah, well, I don't listen to anything fungot says, because fungot is made of one really long spaghetti noodle.
06:34:12 <fungot> tswett: in that it doesn't correspond in some 1:1 way to some known enumeration type correct? its like: if: a b
06:34:32 <Bike> wow i don't think i've ever seen forth long enough to indent before
06:34:35 <tswett> At first I didn't realize that was fungot speaking, and so I tried to understand what he was saying.
06:34:36 <fungot> tswett: sure, understood to mean unzip and look at these... barbarians?? oh, yeh!! first you need to
06:35:46 <Bike> http://paste.lisp.org/display/136107
06:35:49 <fungot> shachaf: s/ udded/ fnord something like this with good printing formatting will work. he just pointed out
06:38:35 <tswett> Whoops, I forgot. FREE isn't supposed to leave anything behind.
06:40:13 <tswett> Except freedom, of course.
06:46:08 <shachaf> `learn ngevd is not random
06:46:36 <HackEgo> wisdom/gaszpacho \ wisdom/szoup
06:46:43 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
06:46:47 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
06:47:16 <HackEgo> N8+F)(_5lt&*Lyle<nU٫rdq(OxRSufnv#\!(mQCǒnZݶSILpZ?9rhd¸g&x<׳KWiB!D|dKԍv#4-*r(bvjB:^^49*YCpYQ3ef~<mdPO{EQn&T␆@أ9qlF̚]Czƕ̍&pEN: \ |ZF,ˑ$[z۠#}nhLOC \ 1e].b,
06:48:08 <shachaf> `learn ngevd more like ein gedi
06:56:02 <zzo38> Modern computer designs are too stupid. Do you think so?
06:58:24 <Bike> they work pretty well
06:59:07 <zzo38> They work, but that is not good enough.
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07:06:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found
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07:24:47 <Sgeo> I need to eat :(:(
07:25:16 * Fiora gives Sgeo chocolate
07:25:44 <Sgeo> Long story short, there was a fly in the pasta I prepared so I threw it out. Turns out that was the last bag of pasta afaict
07:31:52 <oklopol> why throw away a good fly?
07:32:12 <oklopol> why not just, you know, eat it?
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07:37:16 <zzo38> Do you like to eat it? (Maybe you can, if you want to.)
07:38:31 <Sgeo> I meant that I threw the pasta away
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07:45:46 <tswett> All right, so, here's my malloc function:
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07:48:08 <tswett> : MALLOC >R 0 0 HEAP @ BEGIN DUP BLOCKSIZE@ DUP R@ >= IF ROT 2DUP > IF DROP DUP THEN -ROT THEN DROP DUP INVERT UNTIL DROP DROP SWAP DUP INVERT IF DROP DROP RDROP 0 EXIT THEN 0 OVER BLOCKFREE! SWAP DUP R@ 4 CELLS + > IF OVER R@ 4 CELLS + + ROT 2DUP SWAP LEFTBLOCK! DUP RIGHTBLOCK@ ROT 2DUP RIGHTBLOCK! >R ROT R> SWAP R@ - 4 CELLS - OVER BLOCKSIZE! 0 OVER BLOCKFREE! 2DUP SWAP LEFTBLOCK! NIP SWAP R@ OVER BLOCKSIZE! 2DUP RIGHTBLOCK! NIP ELSE DROP THEN 4
07:48:41 <zzo38> You should probably write it in separate lines, and possibly factor into multiple blocks, though
07:48:58 <tswett> http://pastie.org/6636240
07:54:09 <Sgeo> My current computer does not supprt VT-x
07:56:49 <fizzie> They keep doing "market segmentation" with that thing.
07:57:00 <zzo38> Most of it is good; but I still think the definition of MALLOC is too long, and it might help to have comments in the definition of MALLOC as well. That definition of MALLOC would not fit on a single page in BBL Forth.
07:58:31 <fizzie> In related news, the cpuinfo "flags" field is getting kind of ridiculous. This computer, for example, supports fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 ...
07:58:37 <fizzie> ... xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 x2apic popcnt tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm ida arat epb xsaveopt pln pts dtherm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid fsgsbase smep erms.
07:58:59 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, modern computers designs are too stupid.
08:01:35 <Jafet> fizzie: you should move to a less confusing market segment.
08:04:08 <Sgeo> errr.... what happened to NxTop
08:04:21 <Sgeo> XenClient ate it apparently
08:05:42 <tswett> zzo38: yeah. The original version has comments, but I removed them for #esoteric's benefit.
08:06:44 <tswett> Aw man. My definition turned out to be too long to fit in one command.
08:07:18 <zzo38> MALLOC is probably the only one there that needs to have comments, as far as I can see, but it is OK to put comments on the other ones too.
08:08:12 <tswett> I find the definition of FREE to be really hard to read *with* a comment every other line.
08:09:11 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, I said, only MALLOC in that code needs comments; FREE doesn't need comments.
08:11:57 <tswett> Here's the version with all the comments: http://pastie.org/6636212
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08:55:41 <Sgeo> I found some pasta
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09:43:37 <Sgeo> Oh god there's another subreddit for computer hardware. And apparently its opinions are distinctly different from buildapc's opinions. I don't know which to trust now
09:44:30 <Taneb> Trust Adam Hart-Davis
09:46:21 <Sgeo> "Tldr bapc is for cutting costs and gapc is for being extravagant "
09:47:01 <Taneb> So, it depends on your budget
09:47:15 <Taneb> Based on what I know about your economic position, I'd go for bapc
09:57:11 <ThatOtherPerson> One of my classmates turned a programming assignment in AS A WORD DOCUMENT
09:57:28 <Jafet> Was it a word macro assignment
09:58:22 <Jafet> Was it crafted to run code when opened by openoffice
09:58:30 <olsner> if you were free to choose the language, doing it as a word macro in a word document might be not entirely unfun
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10:01:58 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: submit it as a Flash file
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11:28:27 <oklopol> http://xkcd.com/1188/ ah, the classic game of throw the ball to yourself and teleport it to your friend who then throws it to himself and teleports it back to you and repeat.
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11:57:02 <[mbm]> >-[<-->+++++]<++.---.+++++++..+++.
11:57:16 <oerjan> ^bf >-[<-->+++++]<++.---.+++++++..+++.
11:57:45 <HackEgo> [mbm]: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:00:10 <[mbm]> >+++++[<++++++>-]<+.>>----[<----->--]<+.>++++++++.>.>>----[<->----]<---.>>-[<->---]<-------.>>-[<->+++++++]<.++++++++.>++.+.>>-[<->+++++++]<++.>>-[<->-----]<+.+..++.++++++++++++++++++.>++.>.>>----[<------>+]<.>+++++++++.>>-[<-->-----]<.>>---[<------>+]<-.>++++++.>...
12:00:22 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++[<++++++>-]<+.>>----[<----->--]<+.>++++++++.>.>>----[<->----]<---.>>-[<->---]<-------.>>-[<->+++++++]<.++++++++.>++.+.>>-[<->+++++++]<++.>>-[<->-----]<+.+..++.++++++++++++++++++.>++.>.>>----[<------>+]<.>+++++++++.>>-[<-->-----]<.>>---[<------>+]<-.>++++++.>...
12:00:24 <[mbm]> bot probably won't like that one.
12:02:02 <[mbm]> ^bf +.>>-[<->+++]<-----.-------.+++++.-------.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<->+++++]<--.+.+.>+.+++++++++.
12:02:56 <[mbm]> ^bf >-[<->+++++]<----.>>-[<-->-------]<+.+.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<->+++]<++++++.>>-[<-->-------]<-.-----------.+++++++++++.----------------.>++++++++++.
12:03:05 <[mbm]> *shrug* had to try
12:03:33 <oerjan> funny guy. none of our bots have ops anyway.
12:04:26 <Sgeo> Most people try bot loops
12:04:52 <oerjan> i think that's a wee bit exaggerating
12:04:53 <fizzie> monqy: Four or so billion, yes.
12:04:55 <Sgeo> Of the people who mess around with the bots trying to get them to behave weirdly
12:05:29 <monqy> it's cute when they try to crash hackego
12:05:35 <fizzie> Most people who mess around probably mess around with HackEgo?
12:05:35 <oerjan> nah most people try rm -rf / in HackEgo and never manage to achieve anything disruptive at all.
12:05:44 <fizzie> It's kind of more suitable for that than fungot.
12:06:03 <fungot> fizzie: i doubt it. the whole thing, there is a stty command i need
12:06:12 <[mbm]> ^bf >-[<-->-------]<-.++.++++.+.--------.+++++++++++++.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<++++.+++++++++++.--.+.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>----[<+++++>--]<--.---------------.++++++++++++++.+.-----------.+++++.-------.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<-----.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<----.++++.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>-[<-->+++++]<---.++++++++++++.-.++++++++.>>-[<-->+++++]<-.+++++++++++++.+.----------.++++++.-.>>++++[<++++++++>-]<.>>----[<+++++>--]
12:06:13 <fungot> mostly just testing a bf conversion
12:06:25 <oerjan> well, it doesn't require you finding a security hole in befunge. although that _would_ be cool.
12:06:47 <[mbm]> huh, bot dropped the last word
12:06:48 <oerjan> !bt_txtgen mostly just testing a bf conversion
12:06:56 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen mostly just testing a bf conversion
12:07:00 <EgoBot> 247 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>++++.++.>-----.+.<<+++.>++++++++++.>>++.<<<--.>----.--.>.>.<.---------------.<.+.-----------.<++++.>--.>>.<----.>.<+.<-.>>.<+.<<+.-.++++++++.>>++.<<----.+.>>++++.++++++.-.>----------------------. [641]
12:07:14 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>++++.++.>-----.+.<<+++.>++++++++++.>>++.<<<--.>----.--.>.>.<.---------------.<.+.-----------.<++++.>--.>>.<----.>.<+.<-.>>.<+.<<+.-.++++++++.>>++.<<----.+.>>++++.++++++.-.>----------------------.
12:07:16 <fungot> mostly just testing a bf conversion.
12:07:27 <fizzie> bf_txtgen adds that silly newline.
12:08:20 <fizzie> And I suppose fungot didn't drop anything, the program was just truncated due to IRC line length limits. It ends kind of abruptly.
12:08:29 <fungot> fizzie: oh come on. you had to remove a temporary directory when i'm done
12:08:45 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, I'm always cleaning up after you, it's ridiculous.
12:08:46 <fungot> fizzie: practice safe eating always use fnord wms. no desktop. sawfish, pekwm and ion are my favourites. you've been really helpful. thanks :) the more references, the literal 2
12:09:09 <[mbm]> huh, didn't even know there was an existing txtgen
12:10:27 <fizzie> The existing one is this one: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
12:11:22 <[mbm]> seems to do better than my admittedly braindead tool
12:12:09 <oerjan> yours seems to have a lot of loops
12:12:43 <fizzie> textgen.java has a rather strict format for the generated code, it's always of the form +N[>+A>+B>+C...<<<-] and then a loopless series of ><+-. to output; and the number of "terms" inside the initial setup is fixed and given as a command line attribute.
12:12:57 <[mbm]> mine is character driven with a minor optimization to do deltas between characters
12:13:24 <[mbm]> so it's basically the shortest sequence for any particular character
12:14:33 <[mbm]> alternate version builds up a string in the bf cells
12:14:39 <[mbm]> ^bf >----[<+++++>--]<-->>-[<-->+++++]<->>-[<-->---------]<+>>----[<+++++>--]<-->++++++++++>[-]<<<<<[.>]
12:14:44 <oerjan> i noticed you used loops that require wrapping cells
12:15:19 <[mbm]> yeah, the alternate version uses a max of two cells
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12:23:57 <oerjan> <Fiora> intel cpus are powered by the ghosts of murdered silicon -- buy amd!
12:24:58 <oerjan> wait, it all makes sense now. our VLSI chips aren't just alien technology... they're made from _actual_ aliens!
12:25:56 <oerjan> this explains why the aliens don't want to make official contact, too
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12:32:09 <Taneb> It is about lunchtime, oerjan
12:32:18 <Taneb> You're not THAT far north
12:33:51 <oerjan> it's just about solstice (i saw something about nowruz on wp today, i think that's at solstice) so i doubt it'll be dark even at the north pole
12:34:35 <Taneb> It's solstice today or tomorrow
12:35:11 <oerjan> i guess it would be tomorrow, given wp _didn't_ say it was today
12:36:37 <fizzie> The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox table says March 20th, 11:02 UT, which should make it today.
12:36:45 <oerjan> anyway the sun shines through the window right behind my laptop, and it was getting overly hard to read even with the drapes shut
12:37:28 <oerjan> this happens just as i come to the discussion about glasses in the logs
12:37:45 <oerjan> i'm afraid the universe might be giving a hint there.
12:38:04 <Taneb> What are those thingies with the boxes that describe algorithms
12:38:04 <Taneb> Anyone know any good flowchart-drawing software?
12:39:14 <Taneb> [mbm], I don't recognize you
12:39:40 <fizzie> I've drawn a couple of flowcharts with that JGraph-driven thing; also with the online draw.io thing, which is built on mxGraph, which is related.
12:40:06 <oerjan> [mbm]: that reminds me, we need to ask some essential newbie questions. (1) do you happen to live in Hexham?
12:40:30 <fizzie> Or is it called Diagramly. I forget exactly.
12:40:50 <fizzie> The application version at least had all kinds of fancy autolayout/routing stuffs in it.
12:41:29 <c00kiemon5ter> or Graphviz, http://www.ffnn.nl/pages/articles/media/uml-diagrams-using-graphviz-dot.php
12:41:46 <[mbm]> oerjan: no, not unless there's a joke in there that I'm missing
12:41:47 <fizzie> Apparently at least www.diagram.ly == draw.io now. It's all so confusing.
12:41:51 <Taneb> draw.io looks pretty cool
12:42:06 <fizzie> And of course for the special case of UML, there's bazillion solutions of various degrees of enterpriseness.
12:42:35 <oerjan> [mbm]: the joke is that hexham is a very small place in England which nevertheless has two regulars in our channel - who don't know each other in real life
12:43:19 <Taneb> Despite having pretty much the same tastes and are roughly the same age
12:43:40 <[mbm]> have they since met irl?
12:43:40 <oerjan> ok (2) do you happen to live in Finland?
12:44:01 <Taneb> [mbm], they refuse to, for the safety of the universe
12:44:10 <fizzie> It's been a while since anyone answered in the affirmative to those two questions.
12:44:33 <oerjan> ok (3) (i think this is the last one) do you want to be on the homestuck list?
12:45:37 <monqy> if you don't know of "the list" already, i think it's best left without explanation…
12:45:42 <oerjan> every time there is a homestuck comic update, Sgeo runs the ^list command to tell people
12:45:53 <oerjan> monqy: no, that's the _other_ list.
12:45:59 <[mbm]> figures as much; get enough spam as is
12:46:54 <oerjan> and there used to be even more, but they were wiped out (how will i now know when oots updates?)
12:53:55 <[mbm]> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/03/you-bought-it-you-own-it-supreme-court-victory-common-sense-and-owners-rights
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13:00:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> I like how you can make a two-dimensional bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
13:01:50 <oerjan> "congruent" implies same size, afair
13:02:04 <oerjan> so that sounds _really_ weird.
13:03:09 <Taneb> Maybe he's abusing the fact that subset isn't necessarily strict subset
13:03:31 <oerjan> no, he explicitly clarified that he didn't
13:04:21 <oerjan> oh hm maybe some vitali construction on the circle...
13:05:26 -!- carado has joined.
13:05:43 <oerjan> i expect whatever this construction is, it shall need the axiom of choice somewhere
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13:11:49 <oerjan> oh http://mathoverflow.net/questions/82416/a-set-of-points-congruent-to-its-proper-subset gives an obvious example: { e^(i n) | n natural }
13:13:54 <[mbm]> hmm, somehow I was thinking more http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/packing.html
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13:16:24 <oerjan> never seen that term before
13:16:58 <oerjan> that squares in squares case rings a bell
13:17:11 <Taneb> tan as in sin/cos?
13:18:29 <oerjan> by the pictures, tan as in equilateral triangle, possibly with equal catheters
13:19:29 <oerjan> right, pretty sure i've seen the squares in squares subpage before
13:21:48 <metasepia> CYUL 201300Z 27006KT 10SM -SN OVC012 M05/M07 A2970 RMK SC8 SLP060
13:21:59 <boily> hm. still -SNing. yeeeeah...
13:22:18 <oerjan> neither wikipedia nor wiktionary mentions it
13:22:49 <fizzie> oerjan: Perhaps it's related to "Tan (goat pattern)".
13:22:57 <oerjan> boily: a supernova in your weather report is _not_ good, i'll just say
13:24:17 <boily> fizzie: goats are mathematical objects.
13:24:32 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_packing_in_a_square
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13:26:47 <fizzie> Circle packing in a square is, apparently, not serious business.
13:27:02 <fizzie> "Circle packing in a square is a packing problem in recreational mathematics -- Recreational mathematics is an umbrella term for mathematics carried out for recreation, self-education and self-entertainment, rather than as a fully serious professional activity."
13:27:19 <Jafet> Square packing is totally notable
13:27:53 <Jafet> Apparently even Erwhat wrote a paper on it!
13:28:27 <oerjan> more like Er-douche, right
13:28:39 <coppro> oh dear ive started a meme
13:28:43 <boily> the 13 circle pattern is beautiful.
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13:29:07 <coppro> oerjan: it's ok. it's not your fault
13:31:04 <Taneb> Anyone recommend me a unit-testing thing for C?
13:31:16 <oerjan> boily: huh http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirinsqu/ has a much uglier pattern than wikipedia, but the same number
13:31:25 <coppro> Taneb: here's a nickel, get a real language
13:31:54 <Taneb> coppro, I have a real language, just I'm challenging myself not to use it
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13:33:15 <oerjan> coppro: (also my joke is that er-douche is probably about as close as a native english speaker can get to the real pronunciation)
13:34:15 <oerjan> (disclaimer: this may wildly misrepresent how native english speakers pronounce anything)
13:34:37 <Jafet> Have you heard native english speakers speak english
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13:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't erdos like erdoosh but with the oo kind of closed at the back, like an ee
13:35:51 <boily> oerjan: all I'm thinking about when perusing those packing patterns, is how ikea could benefit (or is alreding doing so) from that.
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13:36:30 <oerjan> boily: just write them and offer your consultancy
13:36:52 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: the o from erdős is a front rounded vowel, [ø].
13:37:36 <boily> oerjan: I'll as my friend who's working there.
13:37:48 <boily> (btw, we're going to have the largest ikea in north america. MWAH AH AH AH AH!)
13:37:49 <Taneb> Isn't IKEA the one that nobody actually owns
13:39:02 <boily> oerjan: is the «oe» in «oerjan» also pronounced [ø]?
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13:40:10 <fizzie> Makes one wonder how close the Er-douche ő is to the Finnish ö. Wikipedia seems to suggest that it's pretty close; the difference between IPA /ø/ and /ø̞/ is supposedly rather small.
13:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> merriam-webster's audio sample makes it sound like erdursh
13:41:58 <fizzie> /ø/'s page says it's the vowel that a South African English speaker puts in "bird".
13:43:10 <coppro> oerjan: I actually *can* pronounce it because I know French phonetics
13:43:35 <Jafet> We need to go around telling south africans they should pronounce "bird" like the second vowel in "Erdős"
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13:59:43 <oerjan> boily: it's short, and wikipedia seems to think that's [œ], at least in "standard eastern norwegian" (which isn't my dialect, but i don't know that my own pronunciation of that sound is that different). the long version is [ø].
14:01:25 <boily> we have both phonemes, so I can mispronounce it either way.
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14:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> okay so it turns out that the life and career of stephen wolfram actually makes for a p. good tragedy if framed the right way
14:16:58 <Taneb> Remember that weird SK calculus interpreter I wrote
14:17:05 <Taneb> The C version is going well
14:18:48 <Taneb> Weird in that it stores the Ss and the Ks in an integer
14:18:54 <Taneb> Using Cantor's pairing function
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14:38:39 <oerjan> i think ais523's spam measures _might_ be failing.
14:39:07 <Taneb> It is a possibility
14:44:07 <metasepia> doit definition: an old Dutch coin equal to about ^^^1^^^D^^8^^ stiver.
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14:48:53 <Taneb> Nah, just someone trying to make 8^D smiley while high
14:53:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
14:54:01 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
14:54:04 <metasepia> The word stiver is derived from the Dutch Stuiver.
14:54:42 <metasepia> The stuiver was a pre-decimal coin used in the Netherlands.
14:55:05 <metasepia> Often called Holland A country of northwest Europe on the North Sea.
14:55:10 <metasepia> The sixth-largest continent, extending west from the Dardanelles, Black Sea, and Ural Mountains.
14:55:14 <metasepia> continent definition: exercising continence.
14:55:47 <Arc_Koen> we may stop using the adjective "largest"
14:56:03 <AnotherTest> Europe isn't a continent at all? Eurasia is
14:56:03 <boily> how many continents are there now?
14:56:17 <Arc_Koen> that depends on your definition of a continent AnotherTest
14:56:47 <oerjan> there may or may not be more definitions of "continent" than there are continents according to any of them.
14:57:19 <Taneb> Eurasia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Oceania
14:57:19 <Arc_Koen> welll I'm guessing most people's definition of "continent" are enumerations of continents
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14:57:41 <Arc_Koen> why would you put Europe and Asia together, but split america?
14:57:53 <Taneb> AnotherTest, it's animated and switches back and forth
14:58:21 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, the border between the Americas is tiny compared to the Eurasian border
14:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, do /you/ know where the line between europe and asia is?
14:58:33 <Taneb> AnotherTest, it's an animation
14:58:37 <oerjan> AnotherTest: um you realize that map is an animation
14:58:56 <AnotherTest> I'm talking about the frame with 5 continetns
14:59:12 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: at least that's what they used to say before that eurasia shit hit us
14:59:29 <AnotherTest> "The narrowest meaning of continent is that of a continuous[6] area of land or mainland, with the coastline and any land boundaries forming the edge of the continent."
14:59:47 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest: in that case Africa-Eurasia is only one continent
14:59:56 <Taneb> AnotherTest, so... the Isle of Wight is a continent?
14:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, oh, a fairly low mountain range that doesn't even correspond to a geopolitical border?
15:00:25 <Arc_Koen> and both Russia and Turkey would be split between two continents
15:02:43 <AnotherTest> actually in dutch we have the difference between "continent" and "werelddeel" (what you seem to be callling a continent)
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15:03:21 <Taneb> AnotherTest, is one of those what I would call "landmass"?
15:03:54 <AnotherTest> "continent" (Dutch word, not the English word) would be landmass
15:04:06 <Taneb> And there is the problem
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15:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1al5n5/really_overwhelmed_and_frustrated_my_concerns_are/c8ysc20
15:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> honestly cannot tell if this is a parody account from this comment
15:11:12 <coppro> that looks pretty serious
15:11:18 <coppro> the last parenthetical is too true
15:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> it's suspiciously similar to the 'oh i can't do maths, it makes no sense' thing
15:13:16 <Jafet> A line heard only from students and mathematicians.
15:14:09 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:14:18 <metasepia> duck definition: any of various swimming birds (family Anatidae, the duck family) in which the neck and legs are short, the feet typically webbed, the bill often broad and flat, and the sexes usually different from each other in plumage.
15:15:31 <AnotherTest> I don't see how understanding Python code makes you a good programmer though
15:16:18 <AnotherTest> that's like saying "if you can prepare an egg, you're a great cook"
15:16:56 <Sgeo> AnotherTest, he's saying that it means you have the possibility of being a great cook, and if you can't prepare an egg, you'll never be able to be a good cook
15:17:30 <Sgeo> EliezerYudkowsky is the real one as far as anyone knows
15:17:46 <AnotherTest> Sgeo: I'm not sure about that either. People might be confused at first, but later sort it all out
15:18:19 <Jafet> Away with this frequentist rhetoric.
15:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ability is a function of innate genius only, don't you know
15:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> if you can't understand something within 5 minutes you're a useless impostor
15:20:22 <AnotherTest> I feel like a useless impostor now for not understanding every decision made in the Tor design right now
15:25:54 <Arc_Koen> so even someone who has never seen an egg in his life might be considered to have the ability to prepare an egg?
15:26:10 <Arc_Koen> what if it takes him more than five minutes to figure out the shell is not edible
15:26:44 <AnotherTest> Yes, if for example, this person has never seen an egg before it was to be prepared by this person himself
15:27:03 <Taneb> Can I request we remove a few layers of sarcasm and talk about something else
15:27:10 <Arc_Koen> well I guess he can still make hard-boiled eggs
15:27:26 <AnotherTest> or just not boil them an make raw eggs of course
15:27:53 <Arc_Koen> so you're saying anybody can be a cook
15:28:37 <Arc_Koen> anybody who can hold an egg for five minutes without letting it break on the floor or being eaten by a kitten
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15:29:26 <AnotherTest> forget not, that one cannot boil an egg that is not present!
15:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i don't want to think about what would happen if we ablated off more than a couple of layers of sarcasm
15:32:39 <metasepia> In grammar, ablative case is a case in various languages that is used generally to express motion away from something, although the precise meaning may vary by language.
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16:38:11 <FreeFull> The Effects EDSL is a very cool thing
16:42:44 <ion> What’s that
16:46:31 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, you can get pretty far in that sort of thing without the axiom of choice.
16:46:31 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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16:52:10 <Arc_Koen> the new soprano spam page on the wiki is definitely *not* proper french
16:52:40 <Arc_Koen> (in fact it's hardly readable at all)
16:52:42 <shachaf> oerjan: Next up, you can make an uncountable bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
17:17:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Loughborough studying Computer Science and Maths, or Newcastle studying Maths
17:17:24 <Taneb> What advice would you give
17:27:05 <fizzie> I'm not terribly sure I like the interaction paradigm frameworks of this "Feedly" thing.
17:27:41 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
17:29:31 * boily SEGFAULT: Too many buzzwords: `interaaction paradigm frameworks'
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17:34:19 <ion> Sweet. “Beetle Juice - A Minecraft Roller Coaster” http://youtu.be/afcudstM9zA
17:40:34 <Taneb> Some of my friends made a big coaster back in beta 1.8, but it wasn't anywhere near as arty
17:41:52 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpMRGzdSM5s
17:45:25 <Taneb> It's longer now, but parts of the extensions don't work
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17:48:36 <ion> taneb: Cool
17:57:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
17:58:03 <Taneb> It's got good sports and engineering
17:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Loughborough_University%27s_Coat_of_Arms.svg
17:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how hard that coat of arms is trying to look Olde
18:03:18 <metasepia> advice definition: recommendation regarding a decision or course of conduct.
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18:27:39 <elliott> @ask ais523 can you look at the newest wave of spam pages? looks filterable
18:29:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, if I go to Loughborough, it will increase the esoteric migration to the midlands
18:29:39 <Taneb> Not really, the midlands are scary
18:29:46 <Taneb> The horizon is too low
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18:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> just stay close to the buildings and don't look up much
18:30:34 <Taneb> (either way, my first choice is York, I'm just deciding my insurance work)
18:31:45 <Taneb> Yeah, I didn't like it
18:33:33 <Taneb> Newcastle is a much nicer offer, but it's barely away from Hexham
18:33:44 <Taneb> And also, no computer science
18:34:09 <boily> what is the center of mass of this channel? I weigh ~150 lbs, and I'm at FN35EM (maidenhead locator).
18:34:27 <Taneb> I'd say somewhere in the north-east atlantic
18:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, what're the conditions for york vs. loughborough?
18:35:36 <Taneb> York is AAA, Loughborough is AAB
18:36:23 <fizzie> You can get an approximation from /who * + geoip of all locations + averaging. (Just remember to average actual points and not some globular coordinates.)
18:36:38 <kmc> fuck, how do you average spherical coordinates
18:37:56 <Phantom_Hoover> you find the centroid in R^3 then project it onto the sphere, i guess
18:39:19 <fizzie> kmc: One way is to take a unimodal parametric distribution supported on the surface of the sphere (like the von Mises-Fisher), maximum-likelihood estimate the parameters, and then get what that gives.
18:39:34 <kmc> i was afraid of that
18:39:41 <fizzie> That's what I do (except for two dimensions) for the hue in gcolor/fcolor.
18:40:09 <kmc> Bessel functions of the first kind
18:40:16 <boily> much way too complex.
18:40:27 <boily> it's too complex, I said!
18:40:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:41:16 <fizzie> You can do what PH suggests, too. (Perhaps they're equal for some family of distributions?)
18:42:27 <boily> ok. lessee what happens with /who *
18:43:15 <fizzie> (fcolor uses the Wikipedia-listed approximation of kappa, I think.)
18:43:19 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: what if the centroid in R^3 is... THE CENTER OF THE EARTH
18:43:26 <boily> hm. it just returns a bunch of «[#esoteric] Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) H 0 (Phantom Hoover)».
18:43:39 <Taneb> kmc, in this case, unlikely
18:43:48 -!- azaq23 has joined.
18:43:50 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot about freenode and cloaks.
18:44:17 <fizzie> Well, in a real IRC network you could do that.
18:44:22 <boily> everyone is «H 0», except some like nortti who a «G 0».
18:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think in that case the average isn't well-defined
18:44:40 <Sgeo> If I ue XenClient, I won't be able to run VirtualBox, will I?
18:45:00 <boily> Sgeo: you can, you just have to tweak a parameter in your VM config file.
18:45:27 <kmc> i'm at approx 42.364537,-71.102614 if that helps
18:46:04 <boily> Sgeo: I may be confusing VirtualBox and VMware Player together, but to run a virtualised system inside a virtualised system, you have to explicitly enable that.
18:46:52 <kmc> perhaps 8m above MSL
18:46:53 <Sgeo> boily, huh, but there is an option that can be enabled. Cool
18:47:42 <boily> kmc: I don't need elevation yet, not launching any ICMBs at anyone, but thanks anyway. it may come handy sometime...
18:48:21 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, now that I look at it, the mean direction parameter of the von Mises-Fisher is the mean in R^3, normalized. I just do the concentration parameter estimation because I use the "directivity" of the distribution in the weight function.
18:48:24 <Taneb> Intercontinental Magic Bananas, Phantom_Hoover
18:49:49 <fizzie> I'm somewhere around 60.2N 24.8E.
18:51:05 <Taneb> I'm to the east of the middle of Hexham
18:52:37 * Fiora is near ~34N/118W?
18:53:05 <elliott> the drones are on their way to your houses
18:53:21 <fizzie> (Though as the question was about the center of mass, I'm not sure how averaging spherical coordinates is relevant; the center of mass is not going to be on the sphere. Unless we're all in the same point.)
18:54:18 <fizzie> boily wanted to know the center of mass of #esoteric, presumably for some good and proper reason?
18:54:39 <Fiora> won't you need to know peoples' masses too for that?
18:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> if he wanted to know the centre of mass then projecting the centroid is obviously the right way to go
18:55:20 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Why would you project it anywhere?
18:56:00 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:56:07 <boily> Fiora: that's why I stated that I weigh around 150 lbs.
18:56:14 <shachaf> I am ~2500 miles from where I was last week and ~700 from where I'll be next week.
18:56:23 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: indeed, it is to find the average esolanger.
18:56:27 <fizzie> Fiora: I was thinking of an approximation, assuming identical weights.
18:56:37 <Taneb> I'm the average esolanger
18:56:41 <fizzie> boily: I thought it was canonically established that the average esolanger is in Hexham, Finland.
18:56:57 <Taneb> So boily's statement is 100% accurate if you're elliott
18:57:03 <fizzie> (Alternatively, the average esolanger is probably suffocating somewhere deep underground.)
18:57:23 * Fiora is about 45kg if you need that, I guess
18:57:26 <Taneb> fizzie, so THAT'S what cpressey's up to!
18:58:03 <elliott> fizzie: is this the kind in Taphophobia or in
18:58:12 <elliott> hey Phantom_Hoover what was that chapter called
18:58:20 <Arc_Koen> did you guys just get a girl to tell her weigh?
18:58:50 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
18:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, er, right, that's only for finding the average
18:58:57 <Fiora> I volunteered it, slly :p
18:59:15 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I guess you could project it if you want to know where to start digging.
18:59:36 <fizzie> I don't know what to type in Wolfram|Alpha in order for it to compute the maximum depth that a direct line between (the center of) Finland and Hexham attains, even though I'm sure that is a number it can compute.
18:59:58 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: you could also say that chris has been........ presseyd
19:00:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I guess that counts
19:00:10 <boily> (please, someone, give me a blunt object to hit me with)
19:00:29 <shachaf> @google distance from finland to hexham
19:00:31 <lambdabot> http://www.distance-calculator.co.uk/world-distances-oulu-to-hexham.htm
19:00:31 <lambdabot> Title: Travel Distance between Oulu, Finland & Hexham, Great Britain (UK) - Find out ho ...
19:00:48 <elliott> fizzie: I remember using a point averager thing to find the perfect place for a Hexham/Helsinki meetup
19:00:59 <shachaf> I didn't know crows fly between Finland and Hexham.
19:01:55 <fizzie> I like how W|A gives distances in terms of speed of light in optic fiber.
19:02:12 <Fiora> elliott: it's telling you the meeting should be on a ship?
19:02:18 <fizzie> (Well, it's the "direct travel times assuming constant-speed great-circle path" table, not the actual result.)
19:02:22 <elliott> i think it was maybe telling us not to bother
19:03:21 <shachaf> Not everything has to be about shipping, Fiora.
19:03:25 <fizzie> "midpoint between Hexham and Helsinki" computes [ line segment | endpoints (1,5) | (5,-4) | midpoint ], for some reason.
19:04:20 <Taneb> Yeah, after edwardk said something in #haskell-lens, I now ship tables/acid-state
19:04:32 <fizzie> Purely by eyeballing, the midpoint on the great-circle path it plots on the map would be quite close to Sweden's coast, but it could be in the sea.
19:05:22 <Taneb> your welcomelliott
19:11:01 -!- monqy has joined.
19:12:42 <boily> monqy: hi, could I please get your coordinates and body weigh?
19:16:21 <shachaf> monqy.. its for the greater good..
19:19:07 <Fiora> he's trying to calculate the center of mass of the channel apparently
19:20:20 <shachaf> TWIST: monqy is the center of mass of the channel
19:21:02 * FireFly contributes with (Stockholm, ~65kg)
19:21:08 <shachaf> there is no channel but #esoteric and monqy is its centroid
19:25:37 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
19:26:20 <boily> `learn #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
19:27:02 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
19:27:04 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
19:27:14 <Taneb> Is itidus21 still alive
19:27:31 <FireFly> Given that he just made some instant coffee.
19:27:40 <monqy> pretty sure hell has instant coffee too
19:27:52 <boily> instan coffee doesn't proove nothing. it's not even coffee.
19:30:58 -!- Bike has joined.
19:31:38 <boily> ah! another vict^H^H^H^Hhappy volunteer!
19:31:50 <boily> Bike: hi, could I please get your coordinates and body weigh?
19:32:28 <shachaf> boily is trying to make a voodoo doll of you
19:32:36 <monqy> hey didn't you tell me to do it
19:32:41 <monqy> what's with this turnaround!!!!!!!!
19:33:05 <boily> shachaf: shush! you're interfering with the experimental protocol!
19:33:10 <Bike> if he is, i must have already given him my coordinates and body weight.
19:33:39 <shachaf> even when i said its for the greater good.......................
19:33:39 <boily> btw, I don't have shachaf's coördiweights.
19:34:07 <shachaf> are you trying to sweet-talk me with diæreses
19:34:19 <boily> shachaf: subliminal messages. you shouldn't have noticed them.
19:34:23 <lambdabot> *** "sweet-talk" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:34:24 <lambdabot> v 1: influence or urge by gentle urging, caressing, or
19:34:24 <lambdabot> flattering; "He palavered her into going along" [syn:
19:34:24 <lambdabot> {wheedle}, {cajole}, {palaver}, {blarney}, {coax}, {sweet-
19:34:31 <metasepia> sweet-talk definition: cajole, coax.
19:35:16 <Bike> good job monqy. you're a credit to your race. the bicycle race.
19:35:17 <shachaf> 12:03 <aristid> shachaf: you do love your diaresis in english words :P
19:45:12 -!- nooodl has joined.
19:45:59 <boily> maybe third time. let me try another pitch...
19:46:48 <boily> nooodl: hi there, you fine gentleman. how's the weather today? would you mind to lend me your cöördïnäẗës and your body weigh, if you would mind, please?
19:47:02 <boily> (shachaf: watch the power of ultra diæreses.)
19:47:51 <nooodl> boily: Edegem, Belgium: Mostly cloudy, 2°C (36°F). Wind chill: 2°C (36°F). Winds: calm. Dewpoint: 1°C (34°F). Relative humidity: 96%. Pressure: 1012 mb (29.89 in) (⇑). Visibility: 10.0 km (6.2 mi). Station: IANTWERP1. Updated: March 20, 8:45 pm CET. Alerts: ◼ Snow/Ice.
19:48:06 <olsner> coördinate seems to be the right way to write it
19:48:15 <boily> wooooah. that is some nifty formatting.
19:48:29 <elliott> nooodl: um wheres teh body weight
19:49:04 <nooodl> i literally don't know my body weight tbh
19:49:14 <monqy> body weight is for losers with bodies
19:49:45 <boily> nooodl: I'll note edegem, and about 150 lbs.
19:50:10 <elliott> i wonder if i could estimate monqys body weight
19:50:22 <monqy> i dont even know it
19:50:24 <nooodl> if i had to guess: juuust under 60kg (130 lbs)
19:50:26 <fizzie> fungot: How's about your weight? Or is that a too personal question?
19:50:27 <fungot> fizzie: if you have tcp/ ip back when it used to listen on all interfaces not so long ago
19:50:35 <elliott> i wonder how much i weigh these days
19:50:53 <shachaf> i don't know my body weight
19:51:14 <nooodl> was that when you were 12 elliott
19:51:15 <shachaf> although i know what it was 3.5 years ago?? because i have a card that says it
19:51:27 <elliott> nooodl: that was when i was like 13, 14
19:51:52 <shachaf> that's the last kg body weight i remember
19:52:13 <boily> I have eight entries, and none of you supplied me with the same format for your coordinates. gj.
19:52:24 <kmc> TIL Unicode has Mathematical Operators: Invisible Operators
19:52:32 <nooodl> oh wow it's only... 52 kg wow
19:52:57 <shachaf> I think I've mentioned those once.
19:53:00 <monqy> i dont know what weights mean
19:53:08 * kmc used to weigh 3.8 kg
19:53:09 <shachaf> They're not just mathematical -- there's also 2060 WORD JOINER [<U+2060>]
19:53:18 <kmc> yeah i know of these
19:53:21 <Fiora> I guess I am still the smallest here
19:53:23 <kmc> but i did not know about INVISIBLE TIMES
19:53:28 <boily> ~eval 52 / 0.45359237
19:53:31 <Fiora> but wow esoteric is like all skinny people
19:53:35 <boily> ~eval 52 / 0.45359237
19:53:40 <kmc> Fiora: i'm not skinny!!
19:53:54 <olsner> hmm, iinm kg is a unit of mass, not weight
19:53:55 <shachaf> kmc is one with the planet
19:54:05 <nooodl> monqy: 1 kg is the mass of the International Prototype Kilogram hth
19:54:09 <elliott> i can never remember what iinm means
19:54:13 <Fiora> kmc is made out of degenerate matter
19:54:17 <olsner> elliott: if I'm not mistaken
19:54:21 <shachaf> so he weighs about 6e24 kg
19:54:33 <nooodl> sqrt(-1) * inch * meter
19:54:51 <shachaf> with a height of about 13k miles??
19:54:52 <monqy> i also don't know what masses mean
19:55:00 <kmc> but the prototype kilogram is not in an inertial reference frame!!
19:55:06 <fizzie> "May you live in invisible times." (An old Chinese proverb.)
19:55:32 <nooodl> monqy: force over acceleration :-)
19:55:40 <shachaf> what about 2061 FUNCTION APPLICATION [<U+2061>]
19:55:45 <shachaf> imo ghc should support that one
19:56:19 <fizzie> Should it be like a synonym for $?
19:56:42 <kmc> maybe you can already define it??
19:56:52 <shachaf> Wow, someone has english.pm and *isn't* using it as a perl documentation site?
19:57:07 <kmc> @let () = ($)
19:57:10 <kmc> ffffuuuuuu
19:57:35 <shachaf> I guess you meant $ in Haskell and not $? in Perl, though.
19:58:18 <Bike> uh what is the nature of this character, is it just a zero width space
19:58:38 <nooodl> it's to make stuff like "f(x+y)" properly parsable
19:58:52 <nooodl> i.e. "is it the function f applied to x+y, or a number f times a number x+y?"
19:59:11 <monqy> and it's invisible so it doesn't get in the way
19:59:25 <elliott> what happened to unicode not encoding shit like that
19:59:34 <Bike> the unicode committee happened?
20:00:15 <monqy> function application much less important than "pile of poo" or cat faces
20:00:27 <elliott> well thats just because of emoji import
20:00:34 <elliott> imo people complaining about the emoji import are dumb
20:00:52 <shachaf> in elliotts o people are dumb
20:03:24 <kmc> your password must contain: two numbers, two punctuation, two Yijing hexagrams, two invisible mathematical operators
20:03:32 <kmc> two ancient greek musical notes
20:03:58 <shachaf> kmc: Is this one of those games where the requirements uniquely specify one password?
20:04:15 <shachaf> I should make a website with a password requirement like that.
20:04:15 <kmc> is that a thing
20:04:19 <kmc> sounds like a Mystery Hunt puzzle
20:04:27 <olsner> shachaf: I think you should, if you can
20:04:41 <nooodl> "your password must match the following regexes:"
20:05:06 <olsner> "your password is abc123" "confirm your password:"
20:05:51 <kmc> you have 30 minutes to confirm your password or it will be towed at owner's expense
20:06:06 <Taneb> shachaf, bonus if you can make it look like there are many
20:06:11 <olsner> (oh, and the forgot your password? page would just list everyone's password (i.e. print abc123))
20:06:16 <Taneb> And all the requirements seem sensible
20:06:47 <kmc> password satisfies requirements when preceeded by its quotation
20:07:17 <Bike> your password must match the following regexes <-- oh, did you see the mystery hunt regex crossword? i still haven't finished it
20:07:23 <kmc> i did see it
20:07:27 <nooodl> i finished it a couple weeks ago
20:07:29 <kmc> did you see the solution in 30 lines of Haskell
20:07:31 <nooodl> i made my own little thingy too!
20:07:36 <kmc> "30 lines of Haskell and 300,000 lines of C++"
20:08:04 <shachaf> did you see ion's solution
20:08:05 <nooodl> it was smaller and had a much tinier alphabet ([abcd])
20:08:08 <kmc> shachaf: no
20:08:13 <nooodl> i solved it manually fuck all of you
20:08:17 <kmc> is Z3 named after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z3_(computer)
20:08:24 <kmc> it's kind of an awesome name for a theorem prover
20:08:55 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/ersatz/tree/master/examples/regexp-grid
20:09:24 <boily> 22 bit word length???
20:09:25 <Bike> i was thinking of writing something up to solve it but i figured it would be more fun to do it manually
20:09:38 <Bike> and then i got like 70% of the letters filled in only to realize i'd made a mistake
20:09:44 <kmc> i used Yices to win at pub trivia once
20:09:50 <nooodl> ok imma make my puzzle into a html thing
20:09:51 <ion> This? Cool, hadn’t seen it. https://gist.github.com/LeventErkok/4942496
20:09:58 <nooodl> but i don't know if it's actually solvable! it probably is
20:10:06 <kmc> that's the one i saw
20:10:17 <nooodl> there's probably even too many clues
20:11:18 <kmc> anyone know where i can buy 2,000 relays on the cheap
20:11:44 <boily> kmc: http://www.digikey.ca/
20:11:46 <elliott> dont talk about drugs in #esoteric kmc
20:12:14 <Taneb> kmc, if you're willing to PM I know a guy
20:12:20 <kmc> heh really Taneb?
20:12:21 <kmc> maybe later
20:12:28 <Taneb> I'm making the same joke as elliott
20:12:46 <monqy> i was going to make a joke about radio shack but your jokes are better
20:12:58 <monqy> pretty sure the punchline was just going to be "radio shack" anyway
20:13:07 <fizzie> I think there was something called Silk Road where you can buy relays with bitcoins?
20:13:23 <elliott> monqy: is radio shack a real place
20:13:33 <monqy> elliott: do you not have radio shack in uk
20:13:33 <Taneb> elliott, I think there's one in Gateshead
20:13:35 <boily> elliott: radio shack doesn't exist anymore.
20:13:43 <Bike> elliott: http://www.theonion.com/articles/even-ceo-cant-figure-out-how-radioshack-still-in-b,2190/
20:13:49 <ion> I thought my solution was slow, but the one in the gist says it takes 7 minutes. :-)
20:13:58 <Bike> also i think i remember reading about the illicit relay trade in soviet academia once
20:14:06 <ion> s/solution/solver/
20:14:13 <fizzie> ion: Does your solution also prove uniqueness?
20:14:17 <ion> fizzie: nope
20:14:29 <ion> fizzie: The one in the gist says it takes 7 additional minutes to do that as well.
20:16:11 <fizzie> We don't have any Radio Shaqs in Finland, but there's some national electronics chains that I think are kind of bit of similar? (Like Yleiselektroniikka.)
20:16:33 <fizzie> It means vaguely something like "general electronics".
20:16:48 <Bike> yes but i has yl in it which is not a digraph i think i've seen initially before
20:17:03 <kmc> radio shack still has a not entirely terrible selection of hobbyist / DIY electronic stuff
20:17:15 <fizzie> Yleinen, ylin, yllättävä, ylpeä, ... it's kind of common.
20:17:17 <kmc> if you can make it to the back without someone trying to sell you a mobile phone
20:17:37 <fizzie> I don't think YE sells any mobile phones.
20:17:53 <ion> yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö
20:18:02 <kmc> `hyfinate yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö
20:18:07 <kmc> isn't that a thing
20:18:16 <kmc> ~hyfinate yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö
20:18:16 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:18:21 <ion> echo … | hyfinate
20:18:23 <fizzie> There was also a shop called RadioDuo around when I was young, they were perhaps even more hobbyist/DIY-oriented. YE's kind of professional place.
20:18:30 <kmc> `run echo yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö | hyfinate
20:18:32 <shachaf> If it wasn't a thing then HackEgo would still print something.
20:18:35 <HackEgo> y-lie-sie-ri-koi-sa-pu-lais-va-ra-vau-ri-o-rai-vaus-vuo-ro-va-raus-rat-kai-su-pääl-lik-kö
20:18:40 <ion> hyfinate will utterly fail with that one, though, since it’s a compound word.
20:18:55 <kmc> what's it mean
20:19:11 <fizzie> `run echo yli-esi-erikois-apulais-vara-vaurio-raivaus-vuoro-varaus-ratkaisu-päällikkö | hyfinate
20:19:13 <HackEgo> y-li-e-si-e-ri-kois-a-pu-lais-va-ra-vau-ri-o-rai-vaus-vuo-ro-va-raus-rat-kai-su-pääl-lik-kö
20:19:42 <fizzie> Apparently you can do the word separations manually.
20:19:50 <Bike> pääls stick together
20:20:16 <ion> Someone has translated it. http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?p=243480&sid=136cdf7b3a8634e1fc95ef9a27d8d256#243480
20:21:08 <fizzie> I've heard the lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas one before.
20:21:30 <fizzie> Also kolmivaihekilowattituntimittari is allegedly a word with real-world use.
20:21:45 * boily loves his French, short, simple words
20:21:47 <fizzie> (Three-phase kilowatt-hour meter.)
20:22:09 <kmc> donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän
20:23:19 <olsner> you should write that kolmivaihe-kWhm instead
20:23:20 <fizzie> One of my favourite German words is "entgegengegangen", especially when written in script by hand.
20:23:40 <kmc> whatsit mean
20:24:14 <fizzie> It's one of their two-part verbs, entgegen/gehen, except inflected.
20:24:17 <olsner> hmm, not far from ngengengengeng
20:24:21 <shachaf> fizzie: "minimum" is pretty good to write in script by hand.
20:24:42 <nooodl> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/regex.html
20:24:47 <shachaf> But English can hardly hope to compete here.
20:26:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:26:15 <fizzie> I've forgotten most of my German, but the base verb is something like "to go to meet [someone]", or "to go towards".
20:26:27 <fizzie> And then it's some past tense of that.
20:26:36 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:26:46 <olsner> I think it means something like "gone against"
20:26:53 <fizzie> They have a "ge-" prefix for some of those, that's where the "ge" in "gegangen" comes from.
20:27:04 <FreeFull> Funny how the show instance for () is strict
20:27:14 <FreeFull> Rather than just ignoring its argument
20:27:20 <fizzie> "to go toward(s), to approach , (um jdn zu treffen) to go to meet (fig) [einer Gefahr, dem Tode, der Zukunft] to face" says a random dictionary for entgegengehen.
20:27:41 <fizzie> Entgegen itself is kind of like against, toward.
20:28:02 <boily> I'm confused. do you go against, or towards?
20:28:48 <fizzie> Well, you know, you go against ("in contrary direction") someone, if you go towards someone who is coming to meet you.
20:28:57 <fizzie> They're not opposites.
20:29:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:29:12 <ion> nooodl: You’ll need to add some content to the <td>s for all browsers to render the boxes. perhaps. I think there’s also a CSS property you can use alternatively.
20:29:16 <olsner> hmm, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/entgegen has different meanings for the preposition and the adverb
20:29:30 <boily> fizzie: aaaah, it's more clearer that way.
20:29:58 <ion> Every empty td.
20:30:08 <nooodl> no i mean, which browser(s)
20:30:14 <ion> At least my Firefox.
20:30:44 <ion> and my sword
20:30:59 <ion> Works now.
20:31:01 <oerjan> (well empty td's in general)
20:31:12 <ion> No s needed with the ones with numbers in them, though.
20:31:28 <nooodl> 'course not. i'm just lazy
20:31:48 <nooodl> replaced <td> by <td>
20:36:10 <boily> nooodl: btw, how did you make that weather report? I'm thinking about adding something similar to metasepia.
20:36:24 <nooodl> it's a weather bot in another channel
20:37:02 <fizzie> German compound verbs are kind of silly. Like that entgegen/gehen, it's split as "Ich gehe [...] entgegen.", but in the pluperfect tense it goes back together, with the auxiliary verb taking the place of the main verb bit, becoming something like "Ich war [...] entgengengegangen." (Disclaimer: only studied Germany for like a couple years in high school, forgotten most of it.)
20:37:25 <fizzie> (Where the [...] says where you're actually going.)
20:38:17 <nooodl> you'd want to use something like http://www.worldweatheronline.com/free-weather-feed.aspx
20:39:33 <fizzie> No, you should buy a commercial weather data feed.
20:39:53 <fizzie> E.g. http://corporate.foreca.com/en/products/forecaweatherapi/ for FINNISH PRECISION-GRADE WEATHER.
20:40:02 <boily> much better to just grab what's available from NOAA's NWS FTP.
20:40:02 <fizzie> Various product packages are available!
20:40:08 <fizzie> (I have a friend who works there.)
20:40:27 <fizzie> (I don't get a commission.)
20:41:24 <fizzie> olsner: Doesn't it sound impressive?
20:42:08 <fizzie> It's like AIRCRAFT GRADE TITANIUM except MORE PRECISE.
20:43:24 <fizzie> Also, I've updated my Chromium, and I have a keyword search thing for google (so that "g foo" google-searches for foo) except now the SoSmartItHurtsBar has decided that the first alternative is to do a Google search for "g foo", and then there's a pile of history, and only at the bottom is the keyword bookmark thing.
20:43:35 <fizzie> For "wp foo" it goes to Wikipedia search immediately.
20:44:10 <fizzie> Is there some kind of priority setting to make what I want more preferrable?
20:45:07 <fizzie> (Also why is the history bit full of things that don't have either "g" or "foo" in them?)
20:45:35 <olsner> it searches on history contents and stuff too
20:46:23 <fizzie> Well, I suppose the *page* does have "foo" as a substring, there's that.
20:46:49 <fizzie> Oh, it's called Omnibox, not SoSmartItHurtsBar.
20:47:00 <fizzie> I think I'd like a bit more stupider address bar.
20:47:39 <fizzie> There's also ten gazillion search engines in the "manage search engines" list, I suppose it auto-populates that as I come across sites that can search for things?
20:49:12 <fizzie> Mhm, well, I made my "g" search the default selection, and now it seems to behave better. (Something had also made it "g_" instead. And there's a pile of other duplicates where there's www.example.com and www.example.com_ with slightly different URLs.)
20:49:29 <shachaf> nooodl: Does that crossword have a unique solution?
20:49:46 <shachaf> Is "that crossword has a unique solution" one of the clues?
20:51:55 <nooodl> i don't know if it'll help though
20:52:24 <nooodl> but i'm loving the idea of that "clue" being necessary to solve one of these
20:52:44 <shachaf> The only clues that refer to square 4 are 1A and 4D, right?
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20:55:47 <nooodl> ooh i see what you're doing
20:55:54 <shachaf> And all 1A tells you is that row 1 starts with A, and all 4D tells you is that column 4 has two As.
20:56:17 <nooodl> that's clever. it's valid imo!
20:56:22 <shachaf> If neither of these tells you anything about square 4, then you don't know anything about it. Therefore square 4 should be A, unless I'm wrong somewhere.
20:56:29 <shachaf> Is it solvable without that sort of thing?
20:57:29 <shachaf> Right, I'm just saying nonsense.
20:57:35 <nooodl> but feel free to use this kind of logic, i approve of it
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20:58:55 <shachaf> Moreover the fact that it's solvable uniquely must mean there's only one other A in the column.
21:03:44 <shachaf> If you didn't write the puzzle with that fact in mind.
21:04:39 <shachaf> Hmm, I can't figure out whether square 6 is A or D.
21:04:43 <shachaf> Which probably means I made some mistake.
21:05:22 <oerjan> i'd imagine that "this puzzle has a unique solution" cannot possibly be necessary information, because if the puzzle is _really_ unsolvable without it that means it is false...
21:06:01 <oerjan> hm maybe if it's one of those self-referential meta-logical things
21:07:15 <nooodl> shachaf: probably my bad
21:07:16 <olsner> maybe it could be uniquely solvable with help from that statement, but has multiple solutions otherwise
21:07:42 <oerjan> olsner: but how can that possibly be true?
21:07:59 <shachaf> nooodl: I have: ADDAABBC.CBBBCBA
21:08:21 <olsner> oerjan: I don't know, by using some kind of logic on it perhaps
21:08:28 <Bike> damn that logic
21:08:28 <nooodl> both are valid, yeah. i need to remove one of the diagonal 6 options
21:08:39 <nooodl> (also, everything else is correct)
21:09:37 <oerjan> olsner: it could not be ordinary logic afaict
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21:10:14 <elliott> oerjan: maybe the puzzle has a square that has to be filled in with how many solutions it has
21:10:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Can you figure out a metapuzzle way to make it work?
21:10:29 <oerjan> when i become world dictator i'll make it illegal to talk in a phone within earshot of other people that aren't participating. hth.
21:11:08 <shachaf> oerjan: what if you're talking in russian though
21:11:19 <oerjan> shachaf: perhaps i could if the housemate wasn't frying my brain with his phone talk.
21:11:24 <olsner> oerjan: it might be more interesting to make it illegal not to participate
21:11:38 <Bike> how many correct answers does this question have? hint: at most one
21:12:05 <elliott> because that answer is only half true (there is actually 1 answer)
21:12:17 <oerjan> olsner: i'm not interested in making it interesting, i'm interested in giving people some peace and quiet. Also: snooze buttons will be illegal.
21:12:26 <Bike> yeah zero isn't a fixpoint
21:12:45 <elliott> oerjan: you want to give me some peace and quiet and also deprive me of snooze?
21:13:04 <Bike> oerjan that's terrible. oerjan for antipope
21:13:07 <olsner> why would you want to give people peace and quiet?
21:13:30 <oerjan> elliott: if you don't need to get up when the alarm rings you shouldn't have set it to that time hth
21:13:32 <Taneb> I know someone who declared himself antipope a few years back
21:13:33 <shachaf> but not the protesting kind, because that's too loud
21:13:43 <elliott> oerjan: what if I do have to get up at that time but don't want to.
21:13:54 <shachaf> oerjan: imo elliott makes a good point
21:14:07 <Taneb> He later experienced something very similar to a layman's idea of quantum immortality after being hit by a car
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21:14:30 <elliott> is that another way of saying he died
21:14:35 <oerjan> elliott: then do what i do, turn off the alarm. it's not like you'll want to get up when the next alarm goes off either.
21:15:22 <elliott> oerjan: you don't understand. i have to pretend to myself that i am a functioning person who can get up.
21:16:06 <olsner> my alarm clock has some maximum number of snoozes, after which it just turns off the alarm entirely
21:17:05 <oerjan> olsner: ok that's clever. maybe i'll allow _1_ snooze.
21:17:20 <nooodl> shachaf: i fixed the issue in a pretty interesting way
21:17:48 <olsner> it's easier to only have an off button
21:18:14 <nooodl> which forces it to be D
21:18:25 <shachaf> nooodl: I already closed my file...
21:18:27 <olsner> if you're serious about not getting up you might as well not interrupt your sleep every 9 minutes
21:18:50 <shachaf> Now I have to remember how lookahead works.
21:18:55 <Bike> how many correct answers does this question have, hint at most zero
21:19:08 <oerjan> wait is this another regexp crossword? i solved the other one that was linked the other day, that was fun.
21:19:16 <nooodl> it's a small cute easy one
21:19:20 <fizzie> I just schedule three or so alarms with longer-than-9-minute intervals, and in the morning turn off as many as I need.
21:19:28 <shachaf> nooodl: Did you change the other letters at all?
21:19:38 <nooodl> oerjan: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/regex.html
21:20:09 <shachaf> nooodl: Also you should specify that there's an implicit ^$ around every clue.
21:20:42 <nooodl> oh, i didn't bother mentioning that because it's how the mit puzzle hunt one works as well
21:21:09 <shachaf> nooodl: Does this solve the ambiguity?
21:21:21 <nooodl> irb(main):008:0> r.match('AADB')
21:21:21 <nooodl> => #<MatchData "AADB" 1:"A">
21:21:21 <nooodl> irb(main):009:0> r.match('AAAB')
21:21:39 <nooodl> where r is that down 1 clue.
21:21:46 <shachaf> I used perl -pe and forgot that it always prints.
21:22:10 <shachaf> imo you should get rid of the lookahead because who even remembers how that works
21:22:21 <shachaf> But I don't actually care since I've solved it.
21:22:26 <nooodl> no the lookahead is beautiful
21:22:38 <nooodl> imo i should make more clues silly things like it
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21:23:30 <shachaf> imo you should make more clues depend on "this has a unique solution"
21:23:43 <shachaf> and figure out the issue oerjan pointed out
21:23:46 <oerjan> nooodl: *sigh* i need to import that into a paint program to annotate it... which would be easier if it were actually a picture format...
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21:24:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Just do it in a text file like I did.
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21:24:57 <nooodl> http://i.imgur.com/b9U64y0.png use this?
21:25:19 <shachaf> I kind of cheated my way to figuring out that the 12th square is a B.
21:25:26 <shachaf> There was probably an honest way to do it.
21:25:39 <elliott> is the search space of nooodls crossword small enough to brute-force
21:26:16 <fizzie> Also called "32 bits".
21:26:52 <shachaf> elliott is so hardcore he won't even prune the tree
21:27:18 <fizzie> shachaf: "Tree"? I think you just uint32_t u = 0; it.
21:27:37 <fizzie> Then write some bitmask tests for the clues.
21:27:50 <shachaf> Writing those bitmask tests is more work than solving the puzzle.
21:28:01 <nooodl> it's also a fun way to spend time though
21:28:39 <shachaf> It gets more annoying when people introduce lookahead.
21:28:40 <nooodl> write a "4-length-ABCD-string" regex -> bitmask converter
21:30:10 <nooodl> actually, not just length 4. the diagonals are shorter
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21:30:53 <Bike> hm i wonder if there's a cool way to do it with automata
21:32:21 <shachaf> a new kind of crossword puzzle
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21:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> we know column 4 contains 2 As, and a C or a D in its second row
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21:42:43 <olsner> most of the boxes contain one A, B, C or D
21:47:38 <fizzie> I think there are some +s in those regular expressions that are meaningless, except perhaps psychologically implying that there ought to be more than one.
21:48:03 <fizzie> E.g. I think A+.* and A.* would describe the same languages.
21:48:09 <oerjan> fizzie: i thought so too
21:48:51 <oerjan> olsner: wait i was assuming there was exactly one letter in each box :P
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21:51:52 <olsner> oerjan: oh my, what a silly assumption!
21:58:13 <Sgeo> The guy in the video that I'm watching is saying that the anti-static bag is "non-conductive material"
22:00:16 <ais523> Sgeo: that's the opposite of reality, isn't it? IIRC anti-static bags are as conductive as possible
22:00:16 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:00:20 <lambdabot> elliott asked 3h 32m 40s ago: can you look at the newest wave of spam pages? looks filterable
22:00:42 <Sgeo> ais523, the guy is going on a rant about it
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22:01:54 <Sgeo> He has a video called anti-static mythbuster
22:01:57 <Sgeo> This should be interesting
22:03:31 <Sgeo> I think what's going on is he hears myths "It's bad to put electronics on top of an anti-static bag because the bag is conductive", sees and tests that no harm comes from it, then decides that it's "the bag is conductive" that is the problematic part
22:04:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTGar7aoLDs
22:07:27 <oerjan> wtf i've made an error
22:08:25 <Sgeo> oerjan's first ever error was thinking he made an error.
22:08:29 <ais523> elliott: I've installed a filter that catches and automatically blocks every spambot we've had recently
22:08:33 <ais523> and should have few false positives
22:09:10 <ais523> if the filter is hit, the user who hits it is taken to a page that looks like a submit edit form, with a warning not to submit; the submit button blocks them
22:09:23 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:09:24 <oerjan> ais523: i see lots of spam on the wiki
22:09:36 <ais523> oerjan: I know, did you see the message from elliott?
22:09:45 <Sgeo> ais523, you assume that people actually read.
22:09:46 <ais523> I've been configuring the spam filter to try to automatically deal with it
22:09:56 <ais523> Sgeo: well if there's a user acting like a spambot and not reading messages
22:10:10 <ais523> they're indistinguishable from a spambot anyway
22:10:11 * Sgeo wants to see this warning
22:10:22 <ais523> Sgeo: http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Abusefilter-spambotlike-warning
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22:11:09 <Bike> i don't get those instructions. go me
22:11:43 <ais523> Bike: what don't you get about them?
22:12:43 <Bike> "please make an edit elsewhere..." "There is a button on this page to submit the edit". "this page" implies it should be the abusefilter page, to me
22:13:05 <ais523> Bike: that message shows on the top of an edit page
22:13:13 <ais523> you're seeing it out of context because you aren't a spambot
22:13:53 <Bike> well then wait, it tells me to go edit another page, but then don't save "that edit"
22:14:00 <Bike> where what you mean to say is don't save /this/ edit
22:15:55 <Bike> yeah, i think so
22:16:02 <Sgeo> Instead of watching this video I''m going to go read
22:16:38 <Bike> still seems a bit overcomplicated, non-fuckedimage captchas i see are usually more like "what's the next number in this sequence", but i'm not an admin, so i dunno how well that works. anyway brb vampirism
22:16:53 <ais523> I'm attacking two regularities in the spambots' posting: a) they always try to edit their userpage first, b) they seem to be using some sort of wikitext generation library that uses <br> tags in a way that humans rarely use
22:16:57 <elliott> that warning only shows if you do suspicious things
22:17:57 <ais523> the current way to trigger it is to use a sequence of <br> tags with no surrounding whitespace, in your first edit ever, to a userpage, and have no newlines anywhere in the page
22:18:09 <ais523> most humans will use \n\n for paragraphing, not <br><br>
22:19:04 <ais523> and the sort of page with markup complicated enough to want <br> will almost certainly contain paragraphing or headings elsewhere on the page
22:19:15 <ais523> even without the "new user" restriction, I don't think we get false positives
22:19:41 <elliott> ais523: do you mind if i make the warning more red
22:19:49 <elliott> I am just wary about giving people a block themselves button like that
22:19:54 <elliott> since they might not notice the warning
22:19:59 <ais523> I tend to not make warnings too colorful because then they hit my mental ad blocker
22:20:03 <ais523> they can also appeal on their user talk page
22:20:14 <ais523> finally, we have a log of things that hit the filter
22:20:23 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:20:26 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog
22:20:30 <ais523> so we can check for false positives manually
22:22:35 <oerjan> nooodl: i keep reaching a contradiction D:
22:23:32 <oerjan> one possible thing: those regexes are meant to match the _whole_ line, aren't they?
22:24:53 <fizzie> I made a solve, and submitted it to the TEACHER a moment ago.
22:24:54 <ais523> oh, oerjan isn't talking about the spam filter
22:25:02 <ais523> the question was reasonable in that context too
22:25:03 <fizzie> But it's possible I misthinked something.
22:25:21 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Gothlaw_The_Witching_Hour_The_Bitchin_Hour&action=edit&redlink=1
22:25:25 <elliott> someone please make this spam title esolang
22:25:56 <elliott> "And yes, we will talk about about these Fleshlight. Nothing was heard about her Fleshlight from one of the most confusing things in our lives. I continue to worry that the new fleshlight Girls."
22:26:37 <Jafet> That looks hard to write an interpreter for.
22:28:23 <kmc> The Bitcoin Hour
22:28:47 <Fiora> is that like the Dark Hour is persona 3?
22:29:12 <Fiora> at midnight, time stops and everyone turns into bitcoins
22:29:26 <Fiora> and bitcoin scammers and hackers roam the streets and steal your wallets
22:29:31 <kmc> salvia trip idea: everyone turns into bitcoins
22:31:07 <fizzie> When you hit the P switch, all bitcoins turn into blocks, and then you can jump on them.
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22:38:22 <oerjan> fizzie: the one you solved, was it with 1 down being (.)(?!.+\1)[^B]+.* which i think was a final change?
22:41:36 <fizzie> oerjan: I think so. It was that .png version.
22:45:08 <oerjan> fizzie: to be precise, i interpret that clue as "there cannot be an A in the last two rows of the first column, nor a B in the second row of the first column
22:45:29 <oerjan> so if you have either of those, that might explain it
22:47:45 <fizzie> I don't have an A in the last two rows, nor a B in the second.
22:48:21 <fizzie> (And I interpret it the same way. Though you spoiled the top-left corner!)
22:48:47 <oerjan> it wasn't precisely a hard corner to find :P
22:48:50 <shachaf> I think I spoiled the whole puzzle already.
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22:58:45 <oerjan> fizzie: you don't have D,B,C down the second column do you? (that's what i get as a contradiction)
22:59:51 <oerjan> well, the B above the C
23:01:18 <shachaf> I liked the old 1↓ clue better.
23:03:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you use the clue that there's a unique solution?
23:03:11 <oerjan> what i just asked fizzie was a misreading
23:07:21 <fizzie> I did not use that clue either.
23:07:45 <fizzie> And no, I don't have DBC in the second column.
23:08:02 <shachaf> Use: /last  to see my solution.
23:09:01 <fizzie> Or maybe I do have DBC there and can't read my mousewriting.
23:09:35 <fizzie> (How's DBC in 2 down a contradiction?)
23:09:45 <oerjan> that's good, because i realized that wasn't an error anyway. i must have messed up 2 down and 2 diagonal at some point. repeatedly.
23:11:03 <fizzie> Come to think of it, dbc hasn't been around in a while.
23:11:22 <fizzie> Perhaps he's been stuck in 2 down all this time.
23:12:53 <shachaf> But you didn't use my nifty extra clue.
23:13:10 <oerjan> well i have a D instead of your period.
23:13:31 <shachaf> That's because you're using the new 1↓ clue.
23:13:39 <shachaf> I was using the old one, which left it ambiguous between A and D.
23:14:34 <oerjan> food -> oh, and laundry ->
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23:28:01 <fizzie> I agree with you folks there.
23:28:31 <fizzie> Except mine is done in https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130320-regexsol.png HIGH FIDELITY.
23:28:55 <nooodl> whoops, i was gone for a while
23:29:19 <nooodl> fizzie's solution is correct
23:37:22 <ion> …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
23:42:55 <oerjan> 16:52:42: <shachaf> oerjan: Next up, you can make an uncountable bounded shape which is congruent to a subset of itself.
23:42:58 <oerjan> 16:52:56: <shachaf> (It's the same idea.)
23:43:03 <oerjan> still without the axiom of choice?
23:43:14 <oerjan> hm i guess as long as it is zero measure
23:45:12 <oerjan> {r*e^(in) | 0 < r < 1, n natural}
23:45:41 <oerjan> but can you manage with just the unit circle?
23:45:56 <nooodl> haha my brother walked in on me staring at this regex puzzle a couple of minutes ago
23:46:03 <nooodl> he asked, "what's that, a sudoku?"
23:46:31 <nooodl> seriously. imagine if i made a 9x9 sudoku/regex crossword puzzle
23:46:34 <elliott> you weirdos and your siblings
23:46:55 <nooodl> siblings are pretty good imo
23:47:45 <oerjan> imo i don't think you have any, elliott?
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23:49:44 <nooodl> everyone who participated in solving my little puzzle thingy should try to make one theirselves! tons of fun guaranteed
23:50:47 <ion> 1 diagonally: B+
23:51:15 <Arc_Koen> HEY GUYS I JUST HAD THREE CUPS OF COFFEE AND THESE CAPS ARE NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO REFLECT HOW I REALLY FEEL
23:51:24 <nooodl> i'm going to bed now but i expect at least 15 of them in my lambdabot inbox when i get back!!
23:51:47 <Arc_Koen> send my apologies to the third o
23:51:57 <Arc_Koen> or maybe the missing o was one of the first two
23:52:20 <nooodl> i'm sometimes "nooodle" too which is fun
23:52:34 <nooodl> apparently reading is hard? apparently reading my name is hard at least
23:52:50 <Jafet> Help I mapped my tab key to capslock
23:52:56 <Arc_Koen> I get that a lot when I have to spell my name to someone
23:53:24 <Arc_Koen> and they answer "yeah yeah I know" and write stephane
23:53:46 <nooodl> (huh i was guessing your name would be "koen")
23:54:03 <Arc_Koen> also Koen isn't the right spelling
23:54:26 <Arc_Koen> it's the spelling I use when I'm being incognito on the internet
23:54:35 <Arc_Koen> do you say incognito in english?
23:54:42 <Arc_Koen> wow, that's even worse a spelling
23:54:56 <Arc_Koen> "when i'm being incognito" felt wrong
23:55:10 <Arc_Koen> you can try many spellings and maybe in a few hours we'll reach the good one
23:55:19 <Arc_Koen> Jafet: I reckon it's in mexico
23:55:35 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: also my real name figures somewhere on the wiki
23:58:11 <Arc_Koen> sooo nooodl you were talking about a puzzle
23:58:37 <oerjan> i conclude from the logs that the average esolanger has a heavy mantle to bear
23:58:51 <Fiora> is that because the average esolanger is like, inside the earth
23:59:25 <nooodl> Arc_Koen: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/regex.html
23:59:36 <oerjan> but she needs to work on not explaining jokes
23:59:56 <Arc_Koen> for some reason I knew it wasn't going to be an everybody puzzle
23:59:56 <Fiora> oh. that was. actually a joke
23:59:57 <shachaf> Fiora did you explain a joke again