00:07:06 <Fiora> PH, you're not going to stab me!
00:07:32 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/PCfvIcv.jpg I have her to protect me
00:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> also, cushions are notoriously vulnerable to overpenetration
00:09:43 <zzo38> You might be able to make your IRC client to not display the colors, if you want
00:09:54 * Fiora will go back to normal now
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00:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html
00:29:59 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <Phantom_Hoover> finally, a solution to the problem of wales
00:30:03 <HackEgo> 987) <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <Phantom_Hoover> finally, a solution to the problem of wales
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01:29:44 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: fuck
01:30:11 <Phantom_Hoover> it's what we all feared, a spider that cannot be burned
01:31:18 <kmc> no recourse to "kill it with fire"
01:31:33 <oerjan> it's ok just use water instead
01:31:34 <Bike> ooh ooh what did i miss
01:32:07 <HackEgo> 987) <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html <Phantom_Hoover> finally, a solution to the problem of wales
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04:51:37 <Sgeo> If it weren't for lack of 3d gaming, I would use this http://qubes-os.org/trac/wiki/QubesScreenshots
05:01:03 <kmc> seems like good defense in depth, although not perfect
05:01:17 <kmc> VM breakout exploits are not super rare
05:01:24 <kmc> especially if you are letting random devices through
05:02:29 <Sgeo> Since it uses Xen, I wonder if it would be difficult to configure VGA passthru for this
05:04:06 <kmc> does Xen not support it? they mention VT-d on that page I thought
05:04:21 <kmc> anyway their isolation UI depends on not giving any VM unrestricted access to the video hw
05:04:40 <kmc> if you do that, breakouts become a lot easier
05:04:47 <Sgeo> Xen supports passthru, Qubes doesn't
05:04:48 <kmc> because video cards and drivers are enormously complicated
05:04:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point
05:04:59 <kmc> this is why I'm scared of WebGL
05:05:12 <zzo38> I like that kind of idea, having the different program in different VM
05:05:22 <Sgeo> I want to play my 3d games :(
05:05:29 <Sgeo> It's my entire reason for even caring about Windows
05:05:30 <kmc> i wish our operating systems just fucking worked and then we wouldn't need to slap another layer on
05:05:42 <kmc> Sgeo: you could dual boot
05:05:49 <kmc> and use an encrypted Linux disk so that Windows malware can't mess with it
05:05:52 <kmc> if you are really worried
05:05:57 <kmc> it could still do more devious things though
05:06:18 <zzo38> Use hardware security features which have switches to lock access to drives
05:06:29 <kmc> the other problem with passthrough is, your game could pretend to exit but actually display a full screen simulation of the trusted qubes interface
05:06:36 <Sgeo> I want to play my 3d Windows games while on IRC and doing Linuxy stuff
05:06:38 <kmc> zzo38: heh. or unplug the damn thing :)
05:06:43 <kmc> Sgeo: or you could buy an xbox
05:07:04 <Sgeo> I don't think XBoxes support Active Worlds and Second Life and Docking Station
05:07:09 <kmc> makes life a lot easier to have the magical game box which is always up to spec and doesn't need constant care and feeding
05:07:10 <Sgeo> Although Docking Station isn't 3d
05:07:15 <kmc> if the games you need aren't supported
05:07:17 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, you can unplug it, you can have separate drives
05:08:03 <kmc> Windows malware could still reflash your BIOS or your network card's PCI option ROM to take control
05:08:15 <zzo38> If the game pretends to exit and does that, well, that is another reason to use hardware security support; have LEDs and switches and that stuff to control the security features, which is much more security.
05:08:28 <kmc> or simulate a reboot but actually boot the entire trusted environment inside nested virtualization which it controls
05:08:34 <zzo38> Using this hardware stuff can even prevent Windows malware from reflashing the BIOS and that stuff!
05:08:38 <Sgeo> kmc, I could rely on security through obscurity to some extent, it's unlikely that there's any malware that would take a lucky guess that I'm running a modified Qubes OS
05:08:50 <Sgeo> And guess as to what domains I have, etc.
05:08:54 <kmc> it's fantastically unlikely that anyone will mount such an attack
05:09:05 <zzo38> That is why, security by hardware.
05:09:10 <kmc> another problem with the encrypted linux drive is that you typically have an unencrypted boot partition
05:09:16 <kmc> but you can put that on removable media easily enough
05:10:03 <kmc> i do that with my servers
05:10:13 <Sgeo> The big problem with modifying Qubes OS is... I don't know much about Xen, and trying to reconfigure preconfigured Xen will be even more difficult probably
05:10:56 <kmc> what do you want to modify?
05:11:24 <zzo38> The complicated and stupid design of computer really causes security problems as well as various other problems too. Even with USB, it can be a problem. (I have suggested a patch to Linux to fix this hole; only on this channel, though, not on Linux.)
05:12:32 <Sgeo> kmc, allowing and actually performing VGA passthru
05:14:09 <Sgeo> I could just run raw Xen I assume?
05:15:26 <zzo38> The patch I suggested was this: If there is PS/2 keyboard, do not accept USB keyboard by default (although it can still be configured to allow in specific cases, possibly one of the SysRq commands); if there is no PS/2 keyboard, use the USB keyboard available at boot time instead of others (again, can be reconfigured by the user).
05:15:31 <Sgeo> I should probably choose a card that Xen supports
05:16:00 <zzo38> But this is really a problem with USB, not with Linux; however, it is possible to fix it by software in these ways, nevertheless.
05:16:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, a guy showed me this USB stick he had that pretends to be a keyboard and does stuff. Your suggestions would presumably prevent that
05:16:39 <kmc> did you see http://www.demyo.com/products/demyo-power-strip/
05:16:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, I read that too; however, my thoughts about this were before those things existed.
05:17:06 <kmc> one thing I read about PS/2 keyboards is that they leak a lot of data onto the power supply line and the building power wiring
05:17:10 <kmc> for whatever reason
05:17:34 <zzo38> The new computer I make it will be: security by simplicity.
05:17:39 <zzo38> kmc: What if there is a UPS?
05:17:51 <kmc> probably not then?
05:18:55 <Sgeo> Do ATI graphics work better with Linux than they used to?
05:19:57 <kmc> dunno, i have been using nvidia and intel since forever
05:23:54 <Sgeo> http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/XenVGAPassthroughTestedAdapters
05:24:01 <Sgeo> This does seem to suggest that ATI works better
05:24:33 <kmc> i think if i really cared about security i would just buy a second computer
05:24:36 <kmc> and use it for secure shit
05:24:43 <kmc> or use my old laptop that already exists
05:25:22 <kmc> virtualization is cool and all but it's still this huge pile of complexity
05:25:24 <Sgeo> It's not just security though
05:25:51 <Sgeo> It's also using Windows for certain kinds of recreation while, say, using KDE's niceties for most things
05:26:07 <kmc> kernels are insecure because they're giant C programs, so let's give up on all the properties they were supposed to provide, while replacing them with other giant C programs
05:26:20 <kmc> but these are more secure because they haven't been around as long and fewer bugs are known!
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05:26:38 <kmc> Sgeo: sure, you can do that within a very standard Linux distro though
05:26:42 <Sgeo> It's also about having fun with different distros to their fullest complexity, without ever disconnecting from all the other things I was doing
05:26:43 <kmc> using qemu-kvm say
05:27:00 <Sgeo> kmc, ok. Still need VGA pass-thru for 3d games?
05:27:41 <kmc> don't know anything about that
05:27:48 <Bike> kmc: you know about stuff like that eros OS project right? does it not suck?
05:27:54 <kmc> i don't know about eros OS
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05:29:47 <Bike> http://www.eros-os.org/eros.html
05:30:02 <Sgeo> Hmm. I wonder if, if I use Windows as a base OS and just virtualize Linux, if some virtualization things allow some sort of keyboard passthru so I could type in Linux without much risk of interception
05:31:36 <Sgeo> EROS looks dead
05:32:33 <Bike> The front page, which I didn't bother linking, says basically "this is dead, see Coyotos" and links to that.
05:39:15 <Sgeo> Coyotos looks dead too
05:39:37 <Bike> Everybody's dead.
05:40:32 <Sgeo> Oh they're the people behind BitC?
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05:53:17 <Sgeo> I.. think XenClient might just support 3d gaming without any difficulties? I don't know
05:54:30 <Sgeo> Yeah, I see someone complaining about being able to do 3d stuff with only one VM at a time
05:54:34 <Sgeo> I don't really mind that
05:54:59 <Bike> I hope this means people are trying to play shooters twice at once.
05:57:26 <Sgeo> It occurs to me a major drawback of XenClient might be being unable to run VirtualBox inside the guest OSes
06:00:00 <pikhq_> kmc: Everyone knows it's adding security, it's more code!
06:00:10 <pikhq_> More code is more secure donchano
06:00:13 <zzo38> Well, you might still be able to run Bochs inside the guest OSes, though?
06:00:32 <pikhq_> I'd be impressed if you got Bochs to not run.
06:00:50 <pikhq_> Sgeo: VirtualBox should run, though probably not as fast.
06:01:09 <pikhq_> VirtualBox works just fine without hardware virtualization.
06:02:37 <zzo38> Do you not want security through simplicity?
06:02:45 <Sgeo> Blah, why can't a hypervisor being run under VT-x use VT-x itself? Does VT-x extensions not apply to VT-x extensions?
06:03:01 <pikhq_> zzo38: That is what I actually prefer.
06:03:10 <pikhq_> zzo38: Obviously no bugs, rather than no obvious bugs.
06:03:32 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes. I prefer too
06:03:33 <Sgeo> pritn "Hello, world!"
06:04:23 <pikhq_> Hmm, seems VT-x is set up such that a hypervisor using it *could* emulate VT-x.
06:05:19 <pikhq_> VirtualBox does not seem to implement it though.
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06:09:40 <Sgeo> Wait, VirtualBox does not implement sanely being under another VT-x hypervisor, or does not implement being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x?
06:15:31 <pikhq_> Does not implement being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x.
06:16:42 <Fiora> what about that thing where some virtual machines use ring 1 for the internal OS and ring0 for the real OS?
06:16:48 <Fiora> that'd prevent a VM inside a VM too, right?
06:17:08 <pikhq_> That's how Xen does its paravirtualization.
06:17:24 <pikhq_> Note that the ring 1 OS is written to run under the ring 0 OS.
06:17:46 <pikhq_> VT-x does not run that way.
06:18:11 <zzo38> I want to run a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM, for only the reason that I want the VM to be compatible with the host system or with a different kind of host system too.
06:18:14 <pikhq_> Instead it's basically hacking the Popek and Golberg requirements onto x86.
06:18:16 <Bike> we need aleph-0 rings for all my minecraft-in-minecraft, imo
06:19:49 <zzo38> Bike: I have thought of something like that too (but not with Minecraft), and where each program calls its own ring, zero.
06:20:19 <zzo38> But it is difficult.
06:23:34 <Sgeo> pikhq_, does Xen full virtualizatio support being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x?
06:23:49 <Sgeo> And which does XenClient use? >.>
06:25:13 <fizzie> Isn't it a contradiction that there's seven days a week, but only five or six weekdays?
06:25:15 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I don't know if Xen supports it or not.
06:25:41 <zzo38> fizzie: No, it is a stupid language.
06:25:55 <Sgeo> fizzie, is that like driving in a parkway and parking in a driveway?
06:26:03 <Sgeo> (That joke is how I learned what a parkway is)
06:27:42 <Sgeo> Err, this page seems to imply that the 3d thing is a XenClient XT thing
06:35:37 <Sgeo> ooh https://github.com/GaloisInc/HaLVM
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06:42:35 <zzo38> How many people think the rule that a aura that is also a creature is discarded, is a bad rule?
06:43:24 <Sgeo> Hmm http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/336186-33-full-gaming-virtual-machine
06:43:50 <zzo38> shachaf: A subtype of an enchantment, in Magic: the Gathering cards. (Also called a "local enchantment")
06:47:13 <zzo38> There are some other rules I don't like, too, some others of which are also state-based effects. I think losing due to being unable to draw a card should be immediate rather than a state-based effect, and that a token ceasing to exist when not in play should be inherent in its "initial state" rather than being a state-based effect.
06:47:48 <zzo38> I also think that copies of spells should count as tokens.
06:48:26 <zzo38> I think there are too many klugy rules; I would rather it be mathematically elegant.
06:48:44 <zzo38> What do you think of this?
06:50:13 <Bike> I think it's funny that the guy who originally developed Magic was a student of that one combinatorialist.
06:50:20 <Bike> Also that MtG seems to work by common law which is kinda great.
06:51:08 <shachaf> I prefer games that work by C'mon Law.
06:51:42 <Bike> That's where you whine until the rules change, right?
06:52:10 <zzo38> I like some of the rule changes but many I don't like.
06:53:34 <zzo38> I also think that mana burn has a strategic purpose and would like to keep it. I also like that the remove from game zone has been changed now it is called exile zone; "removed from game" zone isn't a very good name for it.
06:54:23 <zzo38> However, they didn't change it enough. I would have called the "graveyard" instead the "discard zone" and the "library" instead the "draw pile zone" or "draw zone"
06:54:59 <zzo38> However, those names as not as bad as "removed from game", so it isn't as much of the problem.
06:56:06 <zzo38> What is your opinion about my suggestion about tokens and "initial state"?
06:56:19 <Bike> zzo38: http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74231
06:57:24 <zzo38> Bike: I have seen that before.
06:58:04 <zzo38> Basically, what I mean is that, if it were a Haskell function type to move an object from one zone to another, instead of moveToZone :: Object -> Zone -> Game Object will be moveToZone :: Object -> Zone -> Game (Maybe Object)
06:59:08 <zzo38> Does that explain it better, or worse?
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07:08:46 <zzo38> I suppose it might be a different game.
07:11:05 <zzo38> It would be the mathematical version of Magic: the Gathering cards, I suppose, in case you value mathematical elegance over sanity, or something like that.
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07:19:54 <zzo38> Do you know of any existing cards that would have a significant change of use if losing by unable to draw a card is made immediate?
07:20:06 <zzo38> Or a combination of cards?
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07:24:54 <Sgeo> I think a lot of the reason I haven't had 'fun' before 2011 was a result of utter sexual obliviousness
07:25:50 <Fiora> oh no it's sgeo tells us about his sexual adventures time
07:27:17 <Sgeo> My prior sentence was really the only thing I desired to say about the subject now.
07:27:36 <Sgeo> Although the topic in general is not one I feel particularly reluctant to discuss
07:27:50 <shachaf> does there exist a topic you feel reluctant to discuss
07:34:54 <fizzie> That's probably rutabagas.
07:39:09 <shachaf> I hear that's illegal under the DMCA now.
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07:41:54 <zzo38> What does "TMI" mean?
07:42:17 <zzo38> Are you reluctant to say what topics you feel reluctant to discuss?
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07:49:23 <Sgeo> zzo38, "TMI" means "Too Much Information". And yes.
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08:25:39 <Deewiant> Is this some kind of sex discussion channel nowadays? (Or was it always?)
08:27:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Not just any sex, esoteric sex.
08:27:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, if I understand Xen properly, I could effectively use it just like VirtualBox except I need the started OS to technically be Xen
08:27:52 <Sgeo> But it would feel like my base OS is a Linux distro, the dom0
08:29:17 <fizzie> The dom0 is still under the Xen hypervisor, technically.
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08:30:10 <Sgeo> Yes, but in terms of using it, the UI would feel like it isn't
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08:37:54 <zzo38> Famicom keyboard seem to be that the shifted codes are the XOR 16 of ASCII codes of each keys.
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08:39:49 <fizzie> fungot: You used to run in a Xen domU back before they dropped support for non-PAE systems, right? Did it feel any different?
08:39:49 <fungot> fizzie: and allows fun obfuscation you can do it with
08:39:55 <fizzie> (Or maybe that was before your time.)
08:44:21 <zzo38> Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only punctuation?
08:46:04 <Jafet> is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM punctuation
08:47:01 <zzo38> If you mean :: then yes it is OK. However, I mean specifically ASCII punctuation, so that is OK.
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08:54:32 <zzo38> O! I managed to score the exact same number of points in today's basketball game as in yesterday's game.
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09:08:15 <zzo38> Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only the ASCII punctuation codes (no letter, number, control, non-ASCII), please?
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09:24:32 <fizzie> zzo38: There's a trivial solution of (!-"")+(!-"")+...+(!-"") except with 42 of the (!-"") terms in it. It can probably be shortened a lot.
09:24:55 <fizzie> (Even by using that single building block, by doing it as 6*7.)
09:25:32 <fizzie> And in fact you don't need the - either, (!"") is okay as the number 1.
09:26:50 <zzo38> It can be done shorter, but yes that is one way, at least.
09:27:03 <fizzie> $ echo -e '<?php echo(((!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!""))*((!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!""))); ?>\n' > tmp.php; php5 tmp.php
09:27:53 <fizzie> Well, and of course there's also the plain
09:27:53 <fizzie> $ echo -e '<?php echo(((!"")+(!"")+(!"")+(!"")).((!"")+(!""))); ?>\n' > tmp.php; php5 tmp.php
09:28:16 <zzo38> Yes, but still, there is shorter way. Those are a few ways, though.
09:28:32 <Lymia> I seem to have found a gearlance crash
09:28:37 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure there's something very clever.
09:28:47 <zzo38> I wonder if there is any shorter than what I have?
09:29:30 <fizzie> Lymia: It works for me: http://sprunge.us/UALQ
09:32:13 <zzo38> It seems you have 39 characters to make 42, which is shorter from what you had before, at least !
09:32:38 <Lymia> fizzie, http://paste.strictfp.com/37078/ac1fa492561ed0da0a5da3066b4a5cb7
09:32:50 <Lymia> This seems to hang the evaluator
09:33:02 <fizzie> I was *just* about to comment on that.
09:33:10 <fizzie> I had written this: It is interpreted rather inefficiently, though, so maybe there's potential for a denial-of-service kind of thing there, with a suitably nested ((()*-1 ()*-1 ()*-1)*-1 ... )*-1 thing. (Please don't do that to the bot.)
09:33:48 <fizzie> Since the ()-loops don't take any cycles, but will still have to be counted down; it doesn't check whether there's any content inside that takes cycles.
09:34:17 <Lymia> Would forbidding ()*-1 fix it?
09:34:31 <fizzie> Though with all those ...s in there -- is that the literal program? -- it should just hit the cycle limit at least reasonably fast.
09:34:39 <Lymia> That is the literal program, yeah.
09:35:20 <fizzie> Maybe doing approximately 10k rounds of something that contains a countdown loop of 100k just does take long, then.
09:36:34 <Lymia> The cycle limit is 10000, right?
09:36:58 <Lymia> (..........()*-1.....)
09:37:12 <fizzie> Yes, 10000 was an approximation of 100000/15.
09:37:13 <Lymia> Giving (100000/15)*100000
09:37:16 <fizzie> Not a particularly good one.
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09:38:03 <fizzie> Pruning out ()s that have no content that takes ticks should fix that.
09:38:25 <Lymia> I was just going "wtf, why isn't this generation taking so long"
09:38:35 <fizzie> I'll try to remember to see if I should build in such a step, since Bad Things might happen if someone submits a program like that.
09:38:46 <zzo38> fizzie: Now see if you can do with less than 39 characters.
09:39:09 <zzo38> After that, see if if it possible to do with less than 12 characters.
09:40:22 <Lymia> evo-169-129.bfjoust:.....-...,:cut crash:,..><
09:40:22 <Lymia> evo-169-156.bfjoust:-<><->+....,:cut crash:,.>
09:40:22 <Lymia> evo-86-159.bfjoust:..........(..........(..........(..........(..........,:cut crash:,.....)*-1.....)*-1.....)*-1.....)*-1.....
09:40:30 <Lymia> This is apparently not uncommon either...
09:44:44 <fizzie> zzo38: (!""+!""+!""+!"").(!""+!"") is 27 characters, I guess. Those parentheses were a bit useless.
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09:46:26 <zzo38> fizzie: OK. That is still too long, though.
09:51:02 <fizzie> I don't think I know enough PHP to be good at this. (Plus I need to go listen to a dissertation now.)
09:51:24 <zzo38> What dissertation is that?
09:53:13 <fizzie> It's http://ics.aalto.fi/en/current/events/doctoral_defence_of_m-sc-janne_pylkkonen/ this one.
09:55:21 <fizzie> It's mostly about discriminative training, I believe.
10:15:32 <Sgeo> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/24/ubuntu_amazon_suggestions/
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10:40:36 <Jafet> Shuttleworth: "Don't be mad, you trust us with root anyway"
10:41:37 <Jafet> "These are not ads because they are not paid placement"
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11:15:56 <Lymia> Set the hill for the evolver to Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:11:28
11:16:03 <Lymia> Let's see what happens!
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11:19:17 <Lymia> The old hill apparently does not parse under gearlance
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11:20:45 <oerjan> Lymia: this may have been before changing to an interpreter which bans unmatched [] inside (), i remember some programs were manually translated during the changeover
11:21:36 <Lymia> Found and removed the culprit
11:21:49 <oerjan> it was afair a simple matter of using ()% instead
11:22:10 <Lymia> impomatic's programs, both of them.
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11:24:29 <oerjan> <fizzie> zzo38: (!""+!""+!""+!"").(!""+!"") is 27 characters, I guess. Those parentheses were a bit useless.
11:24:47 <oerjan> presumably it would get shorter if you could find a shorter representation of 2?
11:25:32 <Lymia> What are you doing?
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11:25:38 <oerjan> hm, does php have << ? in which case (!""<<(!""+!"")).(!""+!"") might work?
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11:25:51 <Lymia> What are you doing?? o~o
11:26:18 <oerjan> Lymia: zzo38 gave a puzzle about how to get the number 42 in php using only ASCII punctuation characters
11:26:38 <oerjan> fizzie got it down to the quote above
11:26:48 <oerjan> but zzo38 said there's something shorter
11:27:56 <oerjan> also i don't know php either, but i'm guessing ! is logical not, "" is treated as false, . is concatenation and php is well-known to convert insanely
11:28:01 <Lymia> $_=!""+!"";($_+$_).$_
11:28:32 <oerjan> is that a single expression? i was assuming that was implied although maybe zzo38 didn't mean that
11:29:14 <oerjan> that might be an expression at least
11:30:04 <oerjan> it's ok HackEgo, i didn't really expect you to have it
11:30:55 <Lymia> (($_=!""+!"")+$_).$_
11:31:00 <oerjan> hm zzo38 _may_ be implying 12 characters is enough
11:31:37 <oerjan> <zzo38> After that, see if if it possible to do with less than 12 characters.
11:32:43 <Lymia> Tested in a PHP interpreter
11:32:48 <Lymia> (($_=!""+!"")+$_).$_ == "42"
11:33:14 <Lymia> So does ($_=!""+!"")+$_.$_
11:33:17 <oerjan> <zzo38> Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only the ASCII punctuation codes (no letter, number, control, non-ASCII), please?
11:33:33 <oerjan> i don't think that implies it has to be an expression
11:33:48 <Lymia> The expression is shorter anyways :p
11:36:57 <oerjan> yeah best i've seen so far
11:37:04 <oerjan> still not 12, though :P
11:39:05 <oerjan> the part other than the expression for 2 is already 11 chars
11:57:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust holycraparush? >+(-[-[-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9]>+(-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9)*9]>+(-[-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9]>+(-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9)*9)*9)*9
11:57:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_holycraparush_: 3.0
11:57:35 <Lymia> Apparently one change is enough to encourage the evolver to produce sensible things.
11:57:40 <Lymia> Make empty programs commit suicide via <
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12:30:52 <elliott> <kmc> i wish our operating systems just fucking worked and then we wouldn't need to slap another layer on
12:30:58 <elliott> kmc: donations to the Write @ Fund are welcome
12:40:00 <elliott> the fund that gives me enough money to stop caring about other things and devote my energies to writing @
12:41:53 <Sgeo> You know how I have a mythical Sgeolang? @ is elliottos
12:42:18 <Sgeo> Except @ presumably has some design thoughts at least
12:42:18 <elliott> i think @'s design may be considerably more concrete.
12:42:32 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm rather new, so I don't really know the names of everybody's mythlangs yet
12:42:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it sort of is.
12:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't remember if elliott wanted to go with ~computing environment~ or not
12:47:40 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: an English-language macro expanding to the name I'll give @ in the future
12:49:19 <elliott> when you say @, you're saying the name I'll give @.
12:49:23 <elliott> you just don't know it yet.
12:49:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no you fool, mitosis is the name of the prototypes that will be written to aid the development of @
12:50:01 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: it is a committed-vapourware operating environment for computers
12:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ThatOtherPerson, (what @ actually is is only a little more confusing than the name situation)
12:50:13 <ThatOtherPerson> And from what you just said, @ is not an English-language macro
12:50:36 <ThatOtherPerson> @ is obviously a committed-vapourware operating environment for computers
12:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> it doesn't enforce a separation between persistent and other memory!
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12:56:14 <fizzie> I was also assuming that _ is not punctuation.
12:56:35 <ThatOtherPerson> So does that mean variable values can be stored to hard drive?
12:59:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
13:00:41 <Jafet> Did you know that ruby uses qsort to sort arrays
13:01:04 <fizzie> PHP does have a comma expression, FWIW.
13:01:24 <Jafet> And that it doesn't even use libc qsort, but ruby_qsort
13:01:49 <fizzie> Re ($_=!""+!"")+$_.$_, I don't know if it has a defined evaluation order. Maybe it has. (Or maybe it's again defined by implementation.)
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13:51:52 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-1200 +.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.].++.
13:51:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-1200: 9.4
13:52:58 <Lymia> Population size 20, hill vs hill. :p
13:53:07 <Lymia> Guess it /can/ make stuff other than just vibrators
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14:23:57 * ais523 attempts to get a Slashdot first post that's good enough to get modded to +5
14:23:57 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:24:00 <lambdabot> elliott said 23h 58m 53s ago: second day in a row of french spam...
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14:26:31 <ais523> @tell elliott the filter caught all four spambots that edited today and yesterday (see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog), but even though it's configured to automatically block, it isn't automatically blocking; is there a configuration issue in the MediaWiki extension?
14:28:54 <elliott> @tell ais523 good question!
14:28:59 <lambdabot> elliott said 4s ago: good question!
14:29:17 <elliott> ais523: how come http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/19 doesn't work, I wonder?
14:29:18 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:29:30 <elliott> also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/examine/log/19
14:29:38 <ais523> elliott: every entry in the abuse log seems to be repeated
14:29:43 <ais523> and only one of the repeats work
14:30:10 <elliott> ais523: hmm... that's not good
14:30:35 <elliott> do you have any debugging suggestions? I could get around to updating MW sometime, maybe that'd help?
14:30:51 <ais523> I'm not very familiar with the server side of MediaWiki, just how to use it as a user
14:31:06 <elliott> btw, I wonder if we should add some more CAPTCHA questions
14:31:12 <ais523> that might or might not help
14:31:15 <elliott> maybe if they have to use a human enough they'll give up :)
14:32:10 <elliott> ais523: btw, why'd the filter not catch http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=35732&oldid=34660?
14:32:14 <elliott> because of the XHTML br tag?
14:32:30 <ais523> indeed, also there's whitespace before it
14:32:35 <ais523> that seemed too potentially prone to false positives
14:32:42 <elliott> we should just add "Are you French?" to the signup.
14:32:47 <ais523> I'm checking for just text<br><br>text because that's what the spambots are doing
14:32:47 <elliott> and disallow registration if you say yes.
14:32:53 <elliott> that also has the advantage of keeping French people out
14:32:57 <ais523> very consistently on their own user page
14:33:09 <ais523> well, the number of <br>s vary
14:33:14 <elliott> ais523: perhaps we should check for two brs in a row
14:33:20 <ais523> I think they have some sort of automated HTML generator
14:33:35 <elliott> and no newlines on the page, or something
14:33:36 <ais523> not really sure if I want to broaden a filter that's apparently already working
14:33:56 <Lymia> Send it to google translate
14:33:58 <Lymia> And ask it what language it is
14:34:08 <elliott> ais523: well, it didn't work to catch Main Page spam
14:34:15 <ais523> yeah it only checks userspace
14:34:22 <ais523> because the spambots are all consistently trying to edit that first
14:34:30 <ais523> and it blocked a userspace edit from each of the spambots
14:34:31 <elliott> oh I see, it caught the user first
14:34:34 <ais523> just didn't block the spambot too
14:34:39 <ais523> my idea was that it'd catch that edit, block the spambot
14:34:45 <ais523> then it wouldn't have a chance to make the other edits
14:35:08 <elliott> ais523: I am a bit worried that the spam will end up being in recent changes instead, with them registering and getting blocked :)
14:35:45 <ais523> elliott: registration would be in recent changes; I'm not sure if abuse filter-related blocks would be, though
14:36:01 <ais523> but at the point when they register, they aren't spambots :)
14:36:27 <ais523> in order to prevent main page spam, I can add a canary string that causes changes to fail if it isn't in the new text of thepage
14:36:41 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-1359 ++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+](++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+])*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+]]<+
14:36:42 <ais523> we can either use something that's already there, or an arbitrary string in a comment
14:36:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-1359: 7.5
14:36:55 <elliott> eh, if it would have been blocked I don't care
14:37:06 <elliott> ais523: and, well, I mean, we should be catching 100% of spambots at user regsitration time
14:37:20 <Lymia> Stupid EgoBot inconstant fitness function :p
14:37:34 <Lymia> elliott, I still vote for blocking any edits that appear to be in French.
14:37:53 <elliott> unfortunately technoology has not yet advanced to the point where we can distinguish French from line noise
14:38:00 <elliott> and programs that look like line noise are on topic
14:38:14 <ais523> as are programs that look like French!
14:39:05 <elliott> ais523: no, we /do/ have minimal standards
14:40:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-1366 ++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++(++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++].<+
14:40:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-1366: 7.6
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14:49:00 <Lymia> Can somebody, lke.
14:49:10 <Lymia> analyze how that actually works :p
14:49:31 <Lymia> What exactly it does
14:57:01 <ais523> looks like it's mostly but not quite a size 1 offset clear leaving a size 9 trail on the cell before the cell it clears
14:57:09 <ais523> err, order 1 offset clear
14:57:41 <ais523> !bfjoust generation-1366-golfed ((+)*9>>-[+]<)*-1
14:57:44 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_generation-1366-golfed: 9.7
14:57:50 <ais523> !bfjoust generation-1366-golfed <
14:57:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_generation-1366-golfed: 0.0
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15:06:45 <elliott> ais523: I'm just going to upgrade MW later
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15:14:16 <Taneb> Chinese graphics card problem is over!
15:25:36 <Taneb> Also, apparently Hexham wants to be the Barcelona of the north
15:25:54 <Taneb> I for one am against splitting from Spain
15:42:36 <ais523> yay, the phd thesis group committee people have decided that I'm doing well enough to not be thrown out of the university for another 8 months
15:43:21 <elliott> i'd throw ais523 out of a university
15:43:30 <ais523> also, I've acheived my goal
15:43:41 <ais523> of getting first post on a Slashdot story /and/ having it moderated up to +5
15:43:59 <ais523> (= it's an actually useful first post, rather than just a blatant "first post" post)
15:45:20 <elliott> ais523: um looks like +4 to me!!
15:45:57 <ais523> elliott: it's listed as 4 on my userpage because that doesn't include karma bonuses
15:46:06 <ais523> but 5 on the story page because that does
15:46:28 <ais523> people won't mod something up that appears to be at 5, even though it's not technically a no-op (because it's visible on the userpage)
15:47:32 <ais523> I actually complained to the slashdot admins about that, in that slashdot allows a post to be at 6 and merely displays it as 5
15:47:42 <ais523> but they either didn't understand or didn't care
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16:16:25 <fizzie> Or they didn't understand and didn't care.
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16:31:55 <elliott> Taneb: that person is a troll.
16:32:15 <elliott> 15:46:55 -!- zedchelon [zedchelon@ip24-251-168-64.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #haskell
16:32:18 <elliott> 15:47:14 <zedchelon> Before I get started in here, I would like to point something out..
16:32:21 <elliott> 15:47:15 <zedchelon> http://www.krioma.net/articles/Bridge%20Theory/Einstein%20Rosen%20Bridge.htm <- this is just as much math as geometric polyhedra are.
16:32:24 <elliott> 15:48:16 <zedchelon> I'm sorry if you are too stubbon to know the difference.
16:32:27 <elliott> 15:48:50 <zedchelon> And won't admit that 50% of the axioms mathematics has been based on were proven wrong, then corrected.
16:32:30 <elliott> 15:49:55 <zedchelon> And I am really sorry you tried so hard to learn mathematics, that you no longer comprhend simple English or any other language.
16:32:32 <elliott> 15:50:10 <glguy> zedchelon: this might be the wrong channel fo ryou
16:32:35 <elliott> 15:50:15 <zedchelon> I am really sorry that you get emotional and can't control it either for that matter.
16:32:38 <elliott> (from /lastlog zedchelon; some lines may be omitted)
16:34:04 <ais523> you can't prove an axiom wrong
16:34:08 <ais523> only inconsistent with other axioms
16:35:27 <shachaf> AXIOM X: An axiom which mentions other axioms is wrong.
16:36:27 <Taneb> shachaf, I think that would be better if it said references rather than mentions
16:36:29 <fizzie> AXIOM X: The body spray for real men.
16:41:43 <elliott> ais523: also, e.g. false is a wrong axiom
16:41:50 <elliott> it's inconsistent even without any other axioms
16:42:18 <ais523> technically speaking that's more of an argument than a proof
16:42:29 * ais523 vaguely wonders if you can have a logic where false is an axiom, and true is unprovable
16:42:49 <elliott> well, I guess I mean p & ~p is inconsistent
16:42:57 <elliott> since you don't necessarily have principle of explosion
16:43:05 <elliott> paraconsistent logics have p & ~p
16:45:17 <shachaf> ais523: Sure, by calling true "false" and false "true".
16:45:42 <ais523> shachaf: well it'd depend on the other axioms
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17:00:15 <Gregor> http://www.doxdesk.com/img/updates/20091116-so-large.gif StackOverflow in a nutshell.
17:01:03 <elliott> some tags are better than others
17:01:08 <elliott> though not as better as they should be :(
17:02:18 <Gregor> I love the "related" section on this X-D
17:02:54 <Taneb> "where are my legs?"
17:03:49 <Gregor> I love "Is there a jQuery plugin for making an HTML page appear in the browser?"
17:06:07 <Jafet> No, you have to do that manually.
17:07:22 <ais523> Gregor: I'm having trouble working out what they meant by that question
17:08:13 <ais523> like, opening a browser window containing an HTML page? changing the currently displayed page to match some HTML? writing a page that will display given HTML when it loads? (that last one is pretty easy even without jQuery)
17:08:52 <Gregor> Not sure if calling bluff or not getting joke X-D
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17:12:16 <ais523> Gregor: I know you were trying to make a joke, but I'm not sure it's warranted given the situation
17:12:36 <ais523> the question's worded badly enough that they may not be asking for something trivial after all
17:12:58 <Gregor> Right, not getting the joke, got it X-D
17:13:49 <elliott> Gregor: did you forget ais523 doesn't click on links
17:14:01 <ais523> oh right, does it require the link to be clicked?
17:14:04 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhh, that would be an explanation if that's the case X-D
17:14:07 <ais523> because if it does, I wouldn't get it
17:14:23 <Gregor> It's a joke mockup of a SO question X-D
17:15:21 <Gregor> Hey, don't ask me why this person thought .gif was a good idea X-D
17:15:32 <Gregor> Ugh, I need to stop using ex-hyphen-dee.
17:15:43 <Gregor> It's becoming my new colon-p.
17:16:07 <Gregor> It is declared, from this day forth, I shall not use that smiley et cetera et cetera.
17:16:15 <elliott> ais523: hmm, interesting new language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Abcdefq
17:16:48 <ais523> elliott: that link redirects to Gregor's link
17:16:59 <ais523> is this a mode of Konversation brokenness I haven't yet discovered?
17:17:13 <elliott> ais523: hmm, works for me now
17:17:14 <ais523> retyping the link I get a blank page
17:17:20 <elliott> a momentary glitch, perhaps?
17:17:23 <ais523> or, rather, a nonexistent page
17:17:42 <ais523> oklopol: I suspect it's elliott redirecting on the esolangs server :)
17:17:54 <elliott> how dare you!!! that would be *highly* irresponsible of me
17:18:01 <ais523> should have captured the headers while it was still up
17:18:32 <ais523> I guess I'll have to reconfigure Firefox to disallow esolangs.org to redirect to third-party websites
17:19:24 <elliott> ais523: that would break at least one thing
17:19:41 <elliott> (http://esolangs.org/files/* links, of which there are several still on the web, IIRC)
17:19:53 <ais523> I guess I could add a prompt
17:19:58 <ais523> I already have it prompt on every cookie
17:20:18 <elliott> shouldn't you just add a prompt for every redirect, if you can handle that kind of torture already?
17:20:45 <ais523> not sure if Firefox has an option to prompt on redirects, or if I'd have to write an extension
17:20:50 <elliott> I have a feeling I know why you don't like using the web
17:20:53 <ais523> the cookies thing isn't so bad because it has an always allow/always deny
17:21:10 <ais523> elliott: it's not because of that; I do get annoyed by pages that try to set cookies on every keypress
17:21:14 <ais523> but I'd likely get annoyed by them anyway
17:22:38 <ais523> I guess alternatively I could set the browser to not load images
17:22:50 <ais523> that actually seems like a reasonable idea, although it'd need a whitelist/blacklist too
17:23:11 <ais523> elliott: how do you tolerate the web without whitelists/blacklists for everything?
17:23:21 <elliott> note to self: I can get ais523 to do increasingly unreasonable things by messing with esolangs.org's nginx configuration
17:23:35 <ais523> elliott: not if you want me to continue administering esolangs.org
17:23:49 <elliott> are you threatening to quit because I set up a stupid redirect for five seconds :P
17:24:16 <ais523> no, I'm threatening to quit if you do it consistently :)
17:24:30 <ais523> btw, you probably /could/ have convinced me it was a Konversation bug if only there was an actual page there
17:25:02 <elliott> well I didn't want to disturb a link with an actual esolang
17:25:06 <elliott> or write a new esolang for the purpose
17:25:15 <ais523> and I didn't actually look at the resulting redirected page for more than a couple of seconds
17:25:16 <elliott> and also I suspected you'd report it
17:25:26 <ais523> only if I could figure out wtf caused it
17:25:31 <elliott> which would admittedly be funny, but you'd probably get mad if I later revealed the truth
17:25:44 <ais523> as would the Konversation devs
17:26:00 <ais523> fwiw, the colors-in-links bug was fixed the day I reported it
17:26:19 <ais523> so `relcome actually lead to a concrete reduction in Konversation's bugginess
17:27:08 <oklopol> ais523: what's wrong with the web?
17:27:15 <oklopol> (apart from the lack of porn)
17:27:49 <ais523> oklopol: basically the huge amount of extra stuff that's there when you're just trying to get some information
17:28:16 <ais523> for one thing, unless you know the other end, you can't know whether the page you're aiming for is even going to have the information you want
17:28:25 <oklopol> significantly less than if you go to the library
17:28:57 <ais523> I watched someone trying to search for something on Google recently; they clicked the first result (a stackoverflow link), and didn't notice the question was a different question than the one they wanted to know the answer to (and the answer to their question was in one of the non-accepted answers as an aside)
17:29:15 <ais523> and there's all the HTML and images and so on that's around what you're looking for
17:29:21 <ais523> and the pages aren't necessarily consistent from one view to the next
17:29:57 <ais523> so when I'm using the web, either I go directly to a page which I already know is likely to have what I'm looking for
17:30:18 <ais523> or I ask around beforehand to try to establish what the appropriate page is
17:30:33 <oklopol> what i do is i write stuff on google and in 5 seconds i have everything i need
17:30:35 <ais523> this is kind-of why I'm so upset at an esolangs.org/wiki/ link not going to MediaWiki
17:30:51 <ais523> because it betrays my trust that what I'll find at the other end of the link is what I'm accepting
17:30:56 <ais523> it makes me consider the site unreliable
17:31:03 <ais523> oklopol: google doesn't work like that
17:31:13 <ais523> it gives you a page that approximately matches some of your search terms
17:31:20 <ais523> which may or may not have anything to do with what you're looking for
17:31:43 <oklopol> how does that differ from asking a person
17:32:03 <oklopol> except for being much faster
17:32:13 <ais523> oklopol: here's one for you: locate the most recent c-intercal release online
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17:32:25 <ais523> there is a fast way to solve this problem, and a slow way
17:32:45 <oklopol> yeah if i need something that 5 people know about and i know one of them, then yeah, google isn't the way.
17:33:06 <ais523> especially because AFAIK you can't find the answer via Google unless you think of searching alt.lang.intercal
17:33:14 <oklopol> but if i need something that 5 people know about and i don't happen to know one of them (which happens about daily), google is the *only* solution.
17:33:42 <oklopol> yeah google won't tell you how thick my fingers are either.
17:33:46 <ais523> for most of those "I need something" requests, I'd automatically go to Wikipedia first
17:34:29 <ais523> although that's generally more than "5 people know about", but that's reasonable given that if only 5 people know about something and it's not related to esolangs or nomic or NetHack variant development or some similarly narrow field, I'm probably not interested in it either
17:34:50 <oklopol> so a guy asks a prof, "is there an unambiguous tree-adjoining grammar whose language is inherently ambiguous context-free" and i suggest one. the prof says he wants to cite me in his upcoming textbook. asks me my year of birth and military rank.
17:34:51 <ais523> elliott: there's a newer version
17:35:04 <elliott> ais523: apparently not new enough, since not even the AUR package has it
17:35:25 <ais523> elliott: I did a bad job of publicising it, really
17:35:36 <ais523> there was the announcement on alt.lang.intercal, and that's about it
17:35:49 <oklopol> in theoretical computer science, everything is known by about 5 people.
17:36:04 <elliott> ais523: oh, but result #1 was esr's intercal site
17:36:14 <elliott> (I googled "latest c-intercal")
17:36:25 <ais523> elliott: ooh, I checked the top few Google results to make sure there wasn't anything useful
17:36:26 <elliott> and also, that would be the first link I'd click if I didn't already know about C-INTERCAL's history
17:36:30 <ais523> but missed that the NEWS.html auto-updated
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17:36:49 <elliott> ais523: it seems that what you have managed to deduce is only that *you* are bad at using Google to find information
17:37:15 <ais523> well that's not surprising, given that it's blocked in the browser and I don't have much practice with it
17:37:24 <ais523> I do very occasionally use duckduckgo
17:37:43 <oklopol> well, it's the greatest thing in the universe
17:37:53 <ais523> but visiting a site when I have no idea about what it's like in advance is ridiculous
17:38:27 <oklopol> you have some sort of principle of not finding out about new things?
17:39:01 * ais523 wonders what percentage of web pages contain malware (including in adverts)
17:39:14 * ais523 looks it up on Wikipedia
17:39:20 <elliott> mythical Linux-targetting malware?
17:39:34 <oklopol> as a windows user, i've never experienced this
17:40:05 <ais523> elliott: well even flashing images are malware to some extent
17:40:51 <ais523> elliott: even a site with a black background can be painful if I'm not warned in advance
17:41:03 <ais523> for a while I genuinely seriously disabled colors on webpages
17:41:09 <ais523> but it ended up more trouble than it was worth
17:41:17 <oklopol> forced everything white on black
17:41:29 <oklopol> it was more worth than trouble
17:42:48 <ais523> perhaps I should try again
17:42:57 <ais523> the main problem was that it had a tendency to break websites
17:43:00 <oklopol> white background sucks ass
17:43:15 <ais523> oklopol: so basically, I go on the basis that most websites have light-colored backgrounds
17:43:25 <ais523> so I set the window manager to display the browser in inverse video
17:43:32 <ais523> and that works in most cases, while still letting me tell colors apart
17:43:40 <oklopol> so you prefer white on black?
17:43:46 <ais523> but if I find a page with a dark background, suddenly my eyes hurt
17:43:49 <ais523> oklopol: at night I do
17:43:56 <ais523> trying to keep the light volume from the screen down
17:44:40 <ais523> the nice thing about that is it also works on images
17:45:11 <ais523> which typically have the same color balance
17:45:24 <ais523> (I think that at this point, elliott has given up reading the conversation in disbelief)
17:45:50 <oklopol> elliott once made me a white on black theme for windows
17:45:52 <elliott> unfortunately I have yet to summon the willpower
17:47:23 <ais523> elliott: has it not crossed your mind that sometimes information on the Internet is wrong (mostly accidentally)?
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17:48:18 <oklopol> in math stuff, that doesn't really matter at least
17:48:27 <oklopol> and otherwise, so what, people can be wrong too
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17:48:47 <elliott> ais523: happily I *have* found the willpower to not get involved in it again
17:49:06 <shachaf> POLL: How do you pronounce the last four letters of "counterfeit"?
17:49:48 <shachaf> You both cheated off elliott.
17:49:57 <ais523> oklopol: no, it just took a little longer for me to type
17:52:18 <Gregor> After getting glasses, I decided to get a copy of my actual prescription. When all of the numbers on your optical prescription have magnitude less than 1, you probably don't REALLY need glasses.
17:53:15 <oklopol> i don't get why people get glasses, why not just, you know, *see well*?
17:53:15 <ais523> Gregor: apparently with some sort of eye imperfections, wearing glasses can help prevent them getting worse
17:53:25 <ais523> because the eye tries to correct over time but corrects in the wrong direction
17:53:35 <ais523> and they stay steady if you're using glasses to correct it
17:54:04 <shachaf> Can you wear superglasses that make your eye correct in the right direction?
17:54:11 <Gregor> ais523: That's more-or-less what the optometrist suggested. I get really bad eyestrain, and she said that if I get glasses to do a minor correction in situations that cause eyestrain, my eyes won't get worse as fast.
17:54:36 <ais523> shachaf: no, they tried that for years before realising it didn't work
17:55:15 <shachaf> Should I see _The Coast of Utopia_?
17:55:28 <shachaf> In particular _Shipwreck_ and _Voyage_.
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18:35:03 * impomatic wonders what the average life of an email address is...
18:35:23 -!- Bike has joined.
18:36:02 <ais523> impomatic: does the address have to be used by a human? that'd increase it quite a lot
18:36:14 <ais523> I imagine the vast proportion of email addresses are temporary creations by spambots
18:36:22 <impomatic> I emailed 28 people using an address from 10 years ago. 24 have bounced.
18:36:55 <impomatic> I'm trying to contact a few old Core War players for my history thing :-)
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18:41:55 <zzo38> Do you know better what thing would need to be done to make Verilog programs to work on a different FPGA?
18:42:04 <HackEgo> geekychair: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:42:06 <elliott> geekychair: important question: are you a chair irl
18:42:59 <elliott> some people are only chairs after 7 pm
18:43:14 <Fiora> are you like, a spinny chair or the kind that just sits boringly in place
18:43:42 <elliott> wow Fiora don't be mean to chairs just because they don't move
18:43:57 <Bike> indeed still chairs are an important part of the chair ecosystems.
18:44:04 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/f4f5780fa5d95698d24ee91c0998a58c/tumblr_mg8p8yNukO1r2yrc9o1_250.gif that said
18:44:06 <Fiora> but the ones that don't move are boring and you can't put them at the right height!
18:44:22 <elliott> um they're at the right height for very special people (people who are the same height as them)
18:44:22 <Fiora> I don't know where I'm going with this
18:44:25 <elliott> it's like finding a soulmate
18:44:33 <Bike> that sounds like heightism fiora
18:44:34 <elliott> you can't get that kind of connection from an adjustable chair!!
18:44:57 <Fiora> (I am actually in tears laughing)
18:45:29 <elliott> it's ok Fiora. somewhere out there is a chair who will comfort you.
18:45:34 <ais523> wow, you managed to go for that long making names based on someone's nick? for shame
18:46:16 <Fiora> ais523: elliott is talented
18:46:26 <Fiora> he should be the chair of the joke committee
18:46:32 <Bike> have you not been here while i've been a bicycle (i am always a bicycle)
18:46:34 <ais523> how's Lymia's evolver getting on?
18:46:35 <Fiora> though I worry that this particular one is on its last legs
18:46:41 <Bike> why, yes, i'm some kind of washingSTONian
18:46:52 <shachaf> Bike: sometimes you're a Bike........ or a Bicyclidine........................................................
18:47:04 <ais523> geekychair: mostly we talk about entire countries rather than individual states
18:47:05 <elliott> Fiora: unfortunately oerjan rules the joke committee with an iron fist.
18:47:06 <shachaf> geekychair: I am in WA but only until next week.
18:47:13 <elliott> (he lost his regular fist in a tragic pun accident)
18:47:19 <zzo38> How can you be a chair after 7 PM? Is that your job?
18:47:36 <Fiora> elliott: that's...
18:47:37 <Bike> Some people have to take the night shift, yes.
18:47:49 -!- elliott has left ("no").
18:47:52 * Bike chokes on breakfast
18:48:09 <Fiora> :< I scared him off
18:48:15 <ais523> Fiora: that's pretty impressive :)
18:48:26 <zzo38> What did you eat for breakfast? Tea of choking?
18:48:28 <ais523> I think people aren't used to /good/ puns, they happen so rarely
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18:49:14 <Bike> ?? people live in olympia?
18:49:14 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
18:49:14 <Fiora> I think that one was pretty awful though <.<
18:49:19 <Bike> thanks lambdabot.
18:49:22 <elliott> I need #esoteric on window 2
18:49:27 <elliott> or all my window numbering gets messed up
18:49:28 <Bike> zzo38: Tea's gross. Milk of choking.
18:49:35 <ais523> elliott: do you have a window reorder command?
18:49:39 <shachaf> I,I The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
18:49:43 <ais523> it's alt-shift-left/alt-shift-right in Konversatoin
18:49:55 <elliott> but moving another window to 2 is more work than just joining #esoteric
18:50:09 <Bike> you could also just part without closing the window
18:50:19 <ais523> I thought you were complaining that you didn't have it in the right place after rejoining
18:50:21 <elliott> Fiora: it's ok but I would watch out for the joke committee in future if I were you
18:50:27 <ais523> rather than you didn't want to be here
18:50:27 <elliott> I have friends in high places
18:50:39 <ais523> can we try to be ontopic with new people around, at least?
18:50:41 <Fiora> are they really in high places or are they just on high chairs
18:50:41 <ais523> or is that impossible?
18:50:53 <zzo38> ais523: You can try, but sometimes it is impossible.
18:51:00 <Bike> OK, geekychair. Present your brainfuck derivative.
18:51:06 <elliott> ais523: -!- Topic for #esoteric: The harmonic mean welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
18:51:07 <fungot> elliott: they should point out that my flatmate was 24 or so at source codes of programs
18:51:09 <ais523> shachaf: I mentioned this to you earlier
18:51:15 <elliott> ais523: looks like we're acting in accordance of the second clause of the topic right now
18:51:20 <ais523> although the /topic is more meaningful than normal
18:51:23 <zzo38> Even people with esolang don't always brainfuck derivatives, at least!
18:51:37 <ais523> actually, I'm going to agree with zzo38 on this
18:51:37 <zzo38> ais523: The meaningful part is the last part.
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18:51:48 <ais523> zzo38: about the logs? or about fungot?
18:51:48 <olsner> has fungot actually made money from spam?
18:51:48 <fungot> olsner: welcome back rotty, you have
18:51:49 <fungot> ais523: i would use something like s3, if you want
18:52:02 <olsner> fungot: I most certainly have not
18:52:03 <fungot> olsner: a strong typed language is because the syntax is defined in.
18:52:10 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I mean the last part, which is the URL of logs.
18:52:31 <Fiora> or maybe they're in high places because they're tall
18:52:37 <ais523> I guess the logs are a good way to check what the topic is, if you're willing to spend a lot of time reading them
18:52:39 <Fiora> so elliott has an army of tall people
18:53:04 <elliott> Fiora: now you're disclosing our trade secrets?
18:53:15 <shachaf> Maybe they're in high places because elliott left adjoint somewhere.
18:53:16 <elliott> you'd better watch out!!!!
18:53:44 * Fiora looks around the room
18:53:50 <Fiora> looks like an army of tall people ot me
18:53:51 <zzo38> geekychair: Well, do you like esoteric programming, or any of the other stuff we do in here such as mathematics and other strange things?
18:53:52 <elliott> no everybody stop. I need a second to cope with shachaf.
18:54:03 <ais523> elliott: second as in time, or a second person?
18:54:03 <Fiora> geekychair: sorry. this place kind of gets really silly sometimes
18:54:17 <zzo38> At least you should learn esoteric programming if you are in this channel, even if you have other stuff to discuss instead. It can help, to understand, in order to help this channel.
18:54:20 <shachaf> Fiora: Only when you're around.
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18:54:21 <ais523> geekychair: the channel's basically about esoteric programming languages, brainfuck and underload and the like
18:54:26 <ais523> most of the time it talks about other things though
18:54:26 <Fiora> that's not true >_<
18:54:44 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, that seems a pretty baseless accusation out of nowhere
18:54:45 <shachaf> Fiora: We're boringly on-topic when you leave.
18:55:01 <ais523> I wonder if fractals are TC, and what that would mean
18:55:05 <elliott> actually, #esoteric only exists while Fiora is in it. we are a figment of her imagination.
18:55:23 <Bike> ais523: pretty sure compositions of analytic functions could be TC easily, at least
18:55:24 <Fiora> shachaf: but my client idles in here... so I can see your silliness when I'm gone!
18:55:29 <elliott> did you really believe ais523 is a real person?
18:55:35 <zzo38> geekychair: What fractals? Do you have anything to say about them more specifically, or question/comment, etc?
18:56:10 <shachaf> ais523: No, it's obviously a lie, hinting toward elliott's interpretation of the world.
18:56:33 <ais523> shachaf: it's just not really helping discussion
18:56:45 <ais523> randomly insisting on doing things with the bot, then insulting people, isn't really productive
18:56:50 <ais523> (those are at separate times)
18:57:15 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, you basically accused Fiora of singlehandedly ruining the channel
18:57:31 <zzo38> geekychair: Is there a specific fractal you have things to write about it?
18:57:32 <shachaf> "really silly" is not a negative attribute of the channel!
18:57:51 <ais523> geekychair: basically the idea is that fractals are generated from reasonably simple rules, which give self-similarity
18:57:52 <shachaf> I didn't think Fiora meant it as such and I certainly didn't.
18:58:09 <ais523> i.e. a subset of the fractal is similar (or identical) to a scaled-down version of the entire fractal
18:58:56 <ais523> actually, one of my favourite things to do with fractals is to do the equations with mere double-precision floating point numbers
18:59:04 <ais523> then zoom in on the rounding errors
18:59:12 <ais523> they often look like distorted versions of the originals
18:59:21 <oklopol> fractal usually means non-integral hausdorff dimension, self-similar is what the layman's fractals are called.
18:59:50 <ais523> oklopol: you can get fractals which have an integer dimension, just the wrong integer
18:59:52 <Fiora> the Julia set has a hausdorff dimension of 2 though right?
18:59:58 <geekychair> I'm awaiting hate mail on my pro-animal testing tumblr post.
19:00:39 <elliott> thanks for letting us know
19:00:44 <ais523> Fiora: I didn't know that but I can believe it
19:01:07 <ais523> geekychair: I think part of the problem in the whole animal testing debate is a failure to define the problem
19:01:07 <zzo38> geekychair: Well, I am not going to send you any mail, but if you say, animal testing, you must say, what are you testing? This is an important question too.
19:01:54 <Fiora> I think animal testing is cruel
19:01:58 <elliott> did you just join an esolangs channel to promote your blog
19:02:01 <Fiora> we already subject humans to so many tests throughout school
19:02:09 <Fiora> do we need to make animals take standardized tests too?
19:02:12 <zzo38> Fiora: Yes, I think so too. However it isn't that simple!
19:02:22 <zzo38> (as in, animal testing is cruel)
19:02:28 <Fiora> like, gosh. should mice have to sit through an SAT? that's mean!
19:02:40 <Fiora> at least give them cheese!
19:02:43 <oklopol> aren't there julia sets for pretty much all complex functions and dimensions vary
19:03:19 <ais523> oklopol: I think the normal definition of "julia set" is the one constructed from a point in the mandelbrot set
19:03:19 <zzo38> I do not believe products intended for humans should be tested on animals, nor should products intended for men be tested on women.
19:03:55 <zzo38> (i.e. cruelty is not my main objection)
19:03:57 <oklopol> well wikipedia lists 1.0812
19:04:09 <oklopol> i guess that rounds up to 2
19:04:11 <Bike> Fiora: now that you put it that way i'm realizing the standard classical conditioning procedure is weirdly like a standardized test...
19:04:59 <zzo38> Bike: I suppose some kinds of tests are.
19:06:16 <zzo38> Still, regardless of whether or not you agree with me, I do believe in freedom of speech and think you should write what you want to write even if everyone hates it, but other people should be allowed to reply, too. I do not intend to stop you from writing such things.
19:06:26 <Fiora> Bike: sorry I was just being incredibly silly <.<
19:16:17 <zzo38> I have asked here before, about the product of the exponents of a polynomial. This is because I was trying to figure out the cardinality of types having forall, such as (forall x. f x -> x)
19:16:36 <elliott> zzo38: forall corresponds to product
19:17:08 <elliott> in a dependently typed language, |forall (x:A), B x| = product (x in A) |B x|
19:17:25 <elliott> (similarly |exists (x:A), B x| = sum (x in A) |B x|)
19:17:42 <elliott> (and (A -> B) is just (forall (_:A), B))
19:18:07 <zzo38> elliott: But what in Haskell?
19:19:14 <geekychair> Ok, I'm trying to work out what would it be like inside a warp bubble; I'm working on a novel and want a more realistic feel.
19:19:49 <zzo38> geekychair: Good question; I don't know either. What novel is that?
19:20:50 <Bike> geekychair turns out to be a time-displaced anderson
19:21:13 <zzo38> I don't know if anyone would really know the answer to your question.
19:21:21 <HackEgo> geekychair: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:21:32 <ais523> geekychair: the problem with warp bubbles is that they can't stop (at least without destroying large swatches of the universe in front of them, and probably not even then either)
19:22:06 <Fiora> they also need exotic matter, right?
19:22:46 <ais523> I'm not sure on the details
19:23:06 <ais523> but if you're moving faster than light, you have no way of controlling the front of your spaceship without sending information faster than light
19:23:06 <olsner> geekychair: something like this, I imagine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPoqNeR3_UA
19:24:50 <olsner> what was it, from jupiters-mass of exotic matter down to merely a tonne or so?
19:25:09 <zzo38> I don't like this word "tonne"
19:26:55 <Bike> i assume ftl is basically like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imbxqv_5TJU
19:27:09 <Bike> or at LEAST scored by ligeti.
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19:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> my hunch is the view from inside an alcubierre bubble just looks black...
19:35:13 <Fiora> you'd probably see the stuff in front of you at least?
19:35:28 <Fiora> with loads of relativistic beaming maybe
19:35:30 <zzo38> Fiora: I don't know if it would be visible clearly though
19:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> there's that bubble of highly distorted space around you
19:36:09 <zzo38> It seems to me it might look like differently somewhat, since the space is different, it moves different, the geometry is different, so I don't think it would resemble ordinary spacetime.
19:36:20 <zzo38> But I don't really know.
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19:40:04 <zzo38> I cannot find the information of the Verilog simulation formats.
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20:24:29 <oerjan> admiral oklopol: good luck on getting cited
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20:34:39 <oerjan> i see from the logs there has been some confusion about the joke committee, but i cannot be bothered to iron it out.
20:36:42 <oerjan> <geekychair> I live in weird Olympia. <-- wait, i thought US state capitals were generally too obscure to have people living in them.
20:37:32 <Taneb> I know someone who lives i Olympia
20:37:51 <Bike> oerjan: i know! it's weird.
20:38:41 <oerjan> Bike: if this continues, soon people will be saying canadian state capitals exist too!
20:39:14 <Bike> that would be really weird considering canada doesn't even have states
20:39:29 <elliott> also because canada doesn't exist?
20:39:44 <oerjan> oh they're called provinces
20:39:46 <shachaf> elliott: ummmmm it exists more than england........
20:39:48 <Bike> yes. we must work triple hard to prevent this eventuality
20:39:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/olist: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/olist: cannot execute: Permission denied
20:40:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/olist: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/olist: cannot execute: Permission denied
20:40:14 <Bike> and what a list it is
20:40:18 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
20:40:18 <olsner> if canada doesn't have states, does that make it functional?
20:40:41 <olsner> (assuming it exists at all)
20:41:22 <oerjan> i think canada is logical. more than the us, anyway.
20:41:28 <olsner> It's imperative that Canada.
20:43:20 <Taneb> I'm beginning to get nervous/excited/something
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20:50:19 <Sgeo> I still need to get all my data off the busted HD at some point
20:50:27 <Sgeo> How many years ago did it break, I forget
20:51:10 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:01:30 -!- AnotherTest has left.
21:04:54 <impomatic> I managed to get data off a HDD from a computer that died in 2001. I still need to get data off the one which died in 1998 though :-(
21:06:00 <Sgeo> Well, that gives me hope
21:06:20 <Sgeo> `pastelogs dd if
21:07:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17360
21:09:52 <Sgeo> wtf is lupu511
21:10:22 <Sgeo> Oh, Puppy Linux
21:10:31 <Taneb> Can someone teach me some handy Finnish phrases
21:10:33 <Bike> wow those are some hella seds
21:10:47 <Taneb> Such as "Kill the imposter"
21:10:52 <Taneb> Sgeo, I think I remember it breaking
21:11:27 <impomatic> Taneb: "ei se ollut minun vikani" <- it wasn't my fault (always handy)
21:13:26 <impomatic> Taneb: Taneb: "kukkulalla on liian monta vampyyrit" <- there are too many vampires on the hill (also useful?)
21:15:14 <Sgeo> I don't see it on there
21:15:22 <Sgeo> The dd command that I was given to run
21:15:33 <Sgeo> I was relying on the logs to store it for me
21:19:08 <oerjan> presumably the logs crashed
21:20:11 <oerjan> does anyone else see that paste cut off at 2011-12-26.txt:16:02:07: <fizzie> E.g. here's one add if you want to b
21:21:45 * oerjan has no idea which one would be the one Sgeo wants
21:21:48 <Sgeo> Maybe fizzie stopped talking after the b
21:22:09 <oerjan> _and_ no one ever mentioned dd if again?
21:22:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4404
21:22:37 <olsner> someone said "don't mention dd if!" and we didn't
21:24:25 <oerjan> well that was apparently just temporary
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21:25:34 <Sgeo> I don't see it
21:28:48 <oerjan> maybe search for something related to narrow down the time period?
21:30:14 <Sgeo> Schneier is putting Facebook like buttons on his blog? Is this an April Fools joke?
21:30:36 <oerjan> <Fiora> the Julia set has a hausdorff dimension of 2 though right? <-- hm independently of the starting parameter? i recall that it's connected if the starting parameter is in the mandelbrot set and totally disconnected if not, but neither might be connected to hausdorff dimension...
21:30:41 <olsner> maybe he's phishing to prove a point?
21:32:21 <Sgeo> He's using a thing that makes you click once to get the real Facebook Like button
21:34:12 <oerjan> @tell Fiora http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fractals_by_Hausdorff_dimension has at least four different values listed for various Julia sets. 2 is one of them though.
21:35:05 <Fiora> that's actually where I read it from <.<
21:35:06 <lambdabot> Fiora: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:37:52 <olsner> non-integer dimensionality is weird ... I would like to understand it some day
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21:41:31 <oerjan> olsner: hausdorff dimension is basically noting that you can calculate the dimension of _nice_ sets such as smooth curves (1) and solid disks or squares (2) by counting how the number of balls/disks needed to cover the set grows as you let the radius of the balls/disks go to 0 - and then noticing that for weirder sets the formula can give a non-integer number.
21:42:15 <oerjan> e.g. to cover a line segment you need a number of balls inversely proportional to the radius
21:42:38 <olsner> that sounds the same as the lebesque covering dimension
21:42:48 <oerjan> or wait am i confusing the dimensions
21:43:15 <olsner> (not that I know about that, I'm just reading about that on wikipedia)
21:44:29 <oerjan> no i was remembering correctly. hm what was the lebesgue again...
21:45:48 <oerjan> ah right, that's the one we used for the research on topological measures
21:46:22 <oerjan> olsner: lebesgue covering dimension is purely topological, hausdorff dimension is very much tied to a metric space
21:47:15 <oerjan> the former only takes integer values (or infinity)
21:47:50 <oerjan> i was going to correct that to natural numbers, but then i remembered that the empty set may be the unique exception naturally considered to have l.c. dimension -1
21:47:57 <olsner> I guess the wikipedia article is trying to explain hausdorff dimension in terms of how it's different from topological dimension
21:50:37 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hausdorff_dimension&diff=546400926&oldid=543562084
21:52:26 <oerjan> oh i hardly noticed your q
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22:01:03 <oerjan> <Fiora> like, gosh. should mice have to sit through an SAT? that's mean! <-- yeah how the heck should mice be expected to solve NP-complete problems when humans cannot!
22:02:00 <Fiora> but not all SATs are NP-complete!
22:02:04 <shachaf> humans can solve NP-complete problems.......................................
22:02:27 <oerjan> shachaf: [citation needed]
22:02:48 <shachaf> oerjan: They're not very fast at it, if that's what you mean.
22:02:57 <shachaf> But they can certainly solve them.
22:02:59 <oerjan> ok, technically _no_ single SAT is NP-complete.
22:03:17 <tromp> not in their lifetime
22:03:30 <oerjan> tromp: that only gets worse for mice, though
22:03:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight).
22:03:55 <oerjan> maybe we should do the tests on giant turtles instead
22:04:30 <oerjan> those grey parrots are fearfully smart
22:05:00 <nooodl> aren't sudokus np-complete!
22:05:16 <Fiora> in general, but any particular instance might be solvable in polynomial time, I think?
22:05:27 <Fiora> it reminds me of one hypothesis about np-completeness
22:05:29 <oerjan> nooodl: not when limited to 9*9, no
22:05:35 <Fiora> yeah, that too <.<
22:05:53 <oerjan> Fiora: any particular instance is solvable in _constant_ time.
22:05:58 <Fiora> which is that "np-complete problems exist, but Almost All instances of them are solvable in polynomial time, and generating a Hard instance is actually in and of itself NP-complete"
22:06:04 <shachaf> oerjan: http://hpaste.org/84523
22:06:13 <Fiora> I think that was called "heuristic world" (of the 5 possible worlds the guy was proposing)
22:07:11 <oerjan> Fiora: istr one of the main ways of creating problems that are _frequently_ hard is to convert integer factorization to them - although that's not even known to be NP-complete
22:07:36 <shachaf> oerjan: Is that actually a bug?
22:07:51 <Fiora> yeah, that's one of those Weird problems, right?
22:07:57 <Fiora> the ones that are in NP but not np-complete
22:07:57 <oerjan> basically, RSA works only because you _can_ apparently make always hard problems that way
22:08:01 <Fiora> like um... graph whatever
22:08:26 <oerjan> Fiora: well it's not _known_ to be NP-complete.
22:08:31 <shachaf> graph whatever, the hardest known problem in computer science
22:08:42 <oerjan> Fiora: graph isomorphism
22:09:03 <Fiora> http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html ah, here it was
22:09:14 <shachaf> i love isomorphisms of directed graphs with a single node
22:09:22 <Fiora> Algorithmica is where P=NP
22:09:45 <Fiora> ah, the one I described was "pessiland"
22:10:00 <Fiora> where NP problems aren't just hard on average, but it's hard to construct a hard NP problem, so you can't even make one-way functions
22:10:27 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:10:50 -!- Bike has joined.
22:10:58 <oerjan> shachaf: except usually graphs don't allow loops...
22:11:08 <shachaf> oerjan: what did i do this time.??
22:11:24 <oerjan> shachaf: you made a somewhat hidden monoid pun
22:11:49 <olsner> oerjan: aren't graps that don't have loops just trees?
22:12:28 <shachaf> oerjan: If graphs don't usually allow loops, then why do people always specify directed *acyclicalic* graphs???????
22:12:45 <oerjan> olsner: by "loop" i mean edges from a vertex to itself, you are thinking of cycles
22:12:46 <shachaf> Bike: what's your opinion on acyclic graphs
22:12:58 <Bike> they're "pretty cool, imo"
22:13:02 <olsner> oerjan: you assume that I think at all
22:13:03 <shachaf> Cycles are allowed but loops aren't?
22:13:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> which is that "np-complete problems exist, but Almost All instances of them are solvable in polynomial time, and generating a Hard instance is actually in and of itself NP-complete"
22:13:27 <oerjan> yes, you cannot have an edge from a vertex to itself, or more than one between vertices
22:13:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiver_(mathematics)
22:14:29 <shachaf> i love isomorphisms of quivers with a single node and a distinguished loop
22:14:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's presumably a different meaning of Almost All
22:15:27 <Fiora> I thought almost all meant 0% of them?
22:16:16 <Fiora> so like, as the problem size increases, there's exponentially fewer hard ones relative to the total number of problems, I guess?
22:16:28 <Fiora> I don't know if that makes sense >_<
22:16:37 <Fiora> I probably didn't interpret the paper very well
22:16:55 <oerjan> Fiora: ok, the problem is that cannot be a probability in the measure theoretic sense, because the set is countable. you need to use a different notion of 0%.
22:17:25 <oerjan> presumably based on limits of frequency
22:18:49 <oerjan> (this isn't unheard of, it's the same kind of thing in the result "two random integers have pi^2/6 chance of being relatively prime." not sure i remembered that formula right.
22:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> can you even have two uniformly distributed random integers
22:19:45 <tromp> you can have a factor p with prob 1/p
22:19:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: then technically there wouldn't be any hard problems by the simple definitions, since a finite number can always be baked into constants
22:20:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you cannot have a uniform measure-theoretic probability on the integers, period. although i recall some stuff about ultrafilters...
22:22:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> Better? <-- more in some comparative direction, anyway.
22:23:48 <zzo38> Nobody else will help me to make a Verilog program to run on Csound.
22:23:48 <oerjan> they're like points outside time and space
22:24:25 <Sgeo> "There is limited support for other devices.
22:24:25 <Sgeo> In particular, isochronous devices such as USB webcams are know not to work."
22:24:26 <fizzie> Er, I mean, disregard that, folks.
22:25:08 <oerjan> we cannot disregard the dreaded 7lastlog, fizzie
22:25:51 <Sgeo> Then again, this is for an older thing, and I don't know if XenClient Express is just XenClient 2.1 rebranded
22:25:59 <fizzie> Also I said <fizzie> E.g. here's one add if you want to buy 15 tons of hard discs. and did not cut off at b.
22:27:08 <fizzie> (I was at a dissertation afterparty, I'm not entirely sober, thus the 7lastlog.)
22:28:13 <olsner> "isochronous" sounds like a circuit or algorithm type from star trek, probably somehow related to time travel given the "chronous" part
22:28:42 <olsner> try isolating the temporal phase variance using an isochronous algorithm
22:28:49 <oerjan> isochronous programming languages such as feather and twoducks
22:29:50 <kmc> what about plesiosynchronous
22:33:02 <olsner> the name is probably half the reason it's not more popular
22:37:02 <oerjan> wait plesiosaur means "almost lizard"?
22:37:14 <olsner> I guess it comes from an attempt at rebranding a broken synchronous widget as a working plesiochronous one
22:38:26 <olsner> or "near-" ... could mean "not too long ago lizard", I guess
22:42:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-2184 (((((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+>-+[+]])*7+>-+[((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+]])*7+>-+[(((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+])*7+])*7>-+[((((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+])*7+)*7+]+
22:43:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-2184: 11.1
22:43:11 -!- zzo38 has left.
22:45:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:46:48 <oerjan> olsner: i don't think the jurassic is usually described as "not too long ago".
22:48:04 <olsner> let's assume the name was given by some plesiocontemporary cavemen
22:48:55 * oerjan plesioswats olsner -----###
23:06:47 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:07:27 <Sgeo> oerjan, don't even joke about that
23:07:58 <oerjan> this is serious business
23:08:26 <Sgeo> It's up for me. But I only checked after I said not to joke about that
23:08:30 <oerjan> also, are you saying it's back up
23:08:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-don't-know-how-this-does-against-hill (+>(.>[]+((+)*2+)*2+)*2+[.>[(+)*2+]+((+)*2+)*2+])*2+
23:08:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_i-don_t-know-how-this-does-against-hill: 6.9
23:09:02 <oerjan> well i had got a page about scheduled maintenance
23:09:50 <olsner> it works now! press F5 until it goes down again
23:10:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:10:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:10:35 * oerjan has however put reddit back in the queue
23:11:15 <olsner> oh no, do we have to teach Sgeo how to eat again?
23:11:51 <Bike> as someone who just ate i can't recommend it
23:12:59 <zzo38> What do you want to eat though?
23:13:20 <olsner> Sgeo: some sources recommend against eating, maybe you should play it safe and starve
23:13:59 <Bike> seriously bachelor food is the worst jesus
23:14:35 <olsner> if you don't like it then why do you make it?
23:15:51 <olsner> also, it's up to you to choose a better jesus if you want one ... do you like the jesus in the bible, for example? I hear he's pretty popular
23:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i think sgeo's still feeling crushed after soylent turned out to be rubbish
23:17:48 <Bike> it was an experiment
23:17:52 <Bike> unfortunately it succeeded
23:18:25 <elliott> im going to say what i said the first time that came around
23:18:26 <Bike> mostly salt, i think
23:18:33 <elliott> it already exists and they made me drink it for a fucking year you morons
23:18:34 <Bike> i've been unconscious for a few hours and don't remember much
23:18:49 <olsner> elliott: sounds craptastic
23:19:10 <elliott> Bike: i had an interesting year or two with the mental health care system
23:19:22 <olsner> Bike: you ate something you think was salt and you passed out for a few hours?
23:19:36 <Bike> elliott: i have no idea what you are talking about
23:19:46 <elliott> Bike: the thing Phantom_Hoover is
23:20:01 <Bike> soylent? like the food?
23:20:11 <elliott> its like you dont even read hacker news!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:20:16 <Bike> "The Post-Food Man: Drink Soylent, and You May Never Have to Eat Again
23:20:37 <olsner> the thing I find worst about that whole thing is that he chose to call it soylent
23:22:53 <olsner> well, unless he made it out of [spoiler] like in the movie, then it would be an awesome name
23:23:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:23:26 <Bike> soylent green is made of rosebud
23:23:26 <olsner> yes I did, not so sure about the seriously though
23:23:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:26:17 <Sgeo> The pizza arrived, they gave the wrong thing
23:26:24 <FreeFull> soylent green is made out of soya and lentils
23:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> it already exists and they made me drink it for a fucking year you morons
23:27:03 <Bike> okay wait okay back up elliott was institutionalized?
23:27:04 <Sgeo> elliott, where can I buy some?
23:27:26 <Bike> sgeo are you seriously asking for food you'd eat in a sanitarium
23:28:23 <Sgeo> It would be convenient
23:28:59 <Sgeo> Surely stuff could be added for taste?
23:29:15 <Bike> is that like, how you think food works
23:29:19 <Phantom_Hoover> or in america do you get served 3-course haute cuisine if you can afford healthcare in the first place
23:29:24 <Bike> you get a blob of proteins and put condiments on it?
23:29:54 <Bike> uuuuugh that's what i just ate
23:30:10 <Bike> yes it had salt
23:30:16 <Bike> 33% of my daily intake of salt
23:30:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not really
23:30:30 <Sgeo> I used to like garlic salt, but haven't tried it in a while
23:30:33 <Bike> oh my god that's almost a gram of salt.
23:30:42 <Bike> why did i eat this
23:30:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remind me, were they feeding you that stuff exclusively
23:30:46 <Sgeo> So garlic salt + liquid food = profit?
23:30:49 <elliott> Sgeo: i'm sure they prescribe it in america
23:30:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no wtf i eat food jesus
23:31:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is meant to supplement or wahtever but the same company also makes a thing for sole feeding or whatever
23:31:17 <FreeFull> Or you could just put garlic itself in
23:31:20 <elliott> christ i don't remember that much any more
23:31:36 <Sgeo> Ok, I could live with a supplement
23:31:40 <Bike> seriously though, were you institutionalized or something?
23:31:44 <Sgeo> Bike, yes he was
23:31:50 <elliott> no i wasn't, shut the hell up
23:32:00 <elliott> however they did threaten to instutitionalise me if i didn't go voluntarily
23:32:07 <elliott> "yes but they didn't have to fill out any paperwork"
23:32:09 <olsner> oh, in this episode of voyager they create two holodeck characters and watch them argue
23:32:13 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but from what i gathered from the soylent comments the live-on-it-alone stuff is for when you are like incapable of eating normal food
23:32:29 <Bike> sounds like the sort of thing they'd force feed you in a sanitarium
23:32:34 <elliott> they let me go home on the weekends though!!!1111
23:32:41 <Sgeo> So maybe I eat like I normally do, and suppliment is in case that normal food nutrition is out of whack
23:32:57 <Sgeo> Which given that I'm me it probably is
23:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also they didn't catch you when you smuggled a phone in! remember their kindness
23:33:35 <Bike> it would be nice if there really was an all-nutrition food. it would come in a lot of handy at the food bank
23:33:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i like how that meant i slept from like
23:33:56 <Sgeo> Wasn't the Dilburrito supposed to be an all nutrition food?
23:34:19 <Bike> Scott Adams Foods, Inc.
23:34:35 <Sgeo> Oh, it's Dilberito
23:34:37 <olsner> allnutrition ~ malnutrition
23:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 'all-nutrition' food is not going to work until we have a comprehensive understanding of nutrition
23:35:20 <Bike> yes, which we don't, but it would still be nice to give a magic pill to the homeless guy that came in yesterday.
23:35:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well you can probably do better than the kind of awful diets a lot of people are on
23:35:48 <Bike> instead of like, well, here are some cans of simulated corn product
23:36:18 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to be upset that the Dilberito is no longer produced?
23:36:28 <Bike> and milk developed for nuclear apocalypse conditions
23:36:47 <Bike> be upset at anything you like, man.
23:37:02 <Sgeo> When I talked to a dietician some time ago, she suggested frozen dinners
23:37:13 <Sgeo> If those are actually better for me than what I've been eating...
23:38:37 <olsner> well, that's not entirely surprising :)
23:39:02 <Bike> what the hell do you eat dude, you're kind of worrying me here
23:39:24 <Sgeo> What Phantom_Hoover said.
23:39:37 <Sgeo> The pop-tarts thing is breakfast, breakfast does tend to vary based on what's available
23:39:41 <Bike> god no wonder you don't like eating
23:39:42 <Sgeo> I do eat cereal sometimes
23:40:00 <Sgeo> Bike, I have never liked eating
23:40:21 <Bike> eating solidified paste is not the solution
23:41:20 <Sgeo> solidified paste?
23:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> you're not going to find a magic bullet in your battle with evolution
23:41:47 <Sgeo> I do like those frozen dinner things
23:42:01 <olsner> Sgeo: you should, like, learn how to cook something
23:42:03 <Sgeo> I just need to get a better thermometer before I'm willing to touch one again though
23:42:09 <Sgeo> olsner, I know how to cook pasta!
23:42:46 <olsner> always a start! but you need more than cheese to go with it
23:43:08 <olsner> hmm, how do you use a thermometer with a frozen dinner?
23:43:11 <Sgeo> Ketchup with cheese is gross
23:43:43 <Sgeo> olsner, after microwaving the dinner, stick thermometer into meat to be sure that it was cooked properly
23:44:49 <olsner> I think frozen dinners are usually precooked, and merely need to be thawed and reheated (but it doesn't hurt to check the instructions)
23:45:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> my unilateral list action appears to have been reversed
23:48:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:48:33 <Sgeo> olsner, the ones my dad's been getting have been saying that you need to make sure it reaches a certain temperature for safety
23:49:31 <Bike> just get a cheap cookbook and try something out
23:49:35 <Sgeo> 10 days ago shachaf fixed it with a new architecture
23:49:46 <olsner> Sgeo: there's something wrong with that whole setup
23:50:01 <Bike> like meatloaf or something! you get to knead it with your hands, it's fun
23:50:08 <olsner> I've never seen microwavable food with instructions like that
23:50:14 <Bike> as an added bonus you won't be eating congealed duck feces
23:50:28 <olsner> microwave food is made for idiots, not people who can use a thermometer
23:50:53 <Bike> yeah it's just "put this in for two minutes"
23:51:34 <olsner> could it be made for professional preparers of frozen dinners of some kind?
23:52:29 <Bike> maybe sgeo's accidentally getting food for adults
23:53:33 <Jafet> Presumably, sterilizing frozen dinners is "hard"
23:53:43 <Jafet> so it has to be recooked
23:53:49 <olsner> but they should already be sterile
23:54:01 <Jafet> even in someone's 50W oven
23:54:28 <Sgeo> Someone's angry about brownies http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2010/06/dear-mr-swanson.html
23:54:49 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't sterilising things these days a matter of putting them in a box and firing gamma rays at them
23:55:13 <Sgeo> WHY DOES EVERYONE ON THE PHONE THINK I'M FEMALE
23:56:13 <Bike> just speak more mannily
23:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> if it helps i didn't think you sounded like a woman in your karaoke at all
23:56:23 <Bike> throw in a "dame" or a growl every few seconds
23:56:46 <kmc> GCC 4.8 came out, also it's written in C++ now for some reason
23:57:06 <olsner> chicken, potato, and corn, period? that's an impressively poor frozen dinner
23:57:08 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'm sure it's somewhere
23:57:14 <kmc> but I think that means "C++ as a better C" and not "we rewrote the entire thing to use smart pointers and RAII"
23:57:24 <olsner> (if it's supposed to be eaten like that?)
23:57:27 <Sgeo> I have it on my HD
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23:57:36 <Bike> i've heard that gcc's style isn't very C anyway
23:57:56 <Jafet> As you know, GCC is written in GCCC.
23:58:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
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23:58:36 <kmc> it has its own garbage collector for one
23:58:53 <kmc> but what doesn't
23:59:01 <Bike> "he C++ features which are not present in C -- features which are well documented in many books and many web sites -- are not an important issue." well, okay
23:59:02 <kmc> Linux kernel has a garbage collector for UNIX sockets
23:59:13 <Sgeo> Maybe garbage collection should be an OS provided service
23:59:27 <kmc> ooh GCC 4.8 has a new flag -Og which means "optimize but not in a way that fucks up debugging"
23:59:29 <Bike> I thought the firefox memory eater problem was due to continually raising the minimum buffer size and never lowering it.
23:59:33 <elliott> kmc: doesn't it just use boehm
23:59:34 <Bike> yeah i heard about -Og
23:59:51 <Bike> kind of curious how many non-numeric -Os there are going to be