00:00:30 <olsner> Arc_Koen: maybe the reason for the split was shutting down the server you were on?
00:00:33 <olsner> or that server realized it was no longer in the network and kicked everyone out?
00:01:07 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:01:11 <olsner> or you were just accidentally
00:01:17 <elliott> do you see the words I am saying.
00:01:25 -!- jix has joined.
00:01:30 <Bike> are you asleep
00:02:41 -!- dessos_ has quit (Write error: Broken pipe).
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00:03:16 <elliott> did all my messages just come in at once
00:03:24 <Bike> No. That would be dumb.
00:03:34 <Bike> No, lambdabot is dumb.
00:03:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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00:03:55 <Bike> So do I, but sometimes you have to acknowledge the dumb.
00:03:58 -!- Mariu has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:03:58 * Bike hugs lambdabot
00:04:39 * Lymia feeds lambdabot cake
00:04:47 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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00:07:38 <Sgeo> > fix $ \(a,b) -> (0,0)
00:07:45 <Sgeo> > fix $ \~(a,b) -> (0,0)
00:07:47 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `\~'
00:07:54 <Sgeo> > fix $ \(~(a,b)) -> (0,0)
00:08:40 <Bike> but what is the fixed point... of EXISTENCE
00:08:56 <Bike> i guess it is nothing. deep
00:09:00 <elliott> Bike: how is the lyah reading going!!!
00:09:20 <Bike> i went through the FFI part of the standard
00:09:45 <elliott> that sounds like a terrible idea for a newbie
00:09:59 <Bike> it seems pretty solid, at least
00:10:00 <kmc> though the coolest things in GHC's FFI aren't in the language standard
00:10:13 <kmc> or at least some useful tricks aren't
00:10:30 <Bike> nothing anybody does in haskell seems to be in the standard and not in ghc (note this is exaggeration get it huh)
00:10:32 <kmc> like the fact that you can pass a ByteString to a C function with zero copying
00:12:00 <Bike> just uh, the standard doesn't seem that important, so much as whatever GHC does
00:12:07 <kmc> i think the standard is important
00:12:17 <kmc> it tells you which parts of GHC are considered bedrock and which are subject to the whims of the GHC devs
00:12:29 <kmc> there is value in a language spec even if there's one dominant implementation
00:12:47 <Bike> yeah, i guess.
00:12:49 <elliott> well the bedrock isn't obeyed and the whims of the GHC devs are controlled by necessity
00:12:51 <kmc> it prevents them from doing what Perl and PHP do where core semantics change in point releases at the whims of the devs
00:13:00 <kmc> though probably not being idiots also prevents them from doing that
00:13:03 <shachaf> You can tell how much kmc dislikes statistics by how annoyed he is at every standard deviation.
00:13:19 <kmc> GHC does deviate from the spec in at least one major way though
00:13:19 <Bike> "X is defined by Y equations" > "here is the behavior of X" most of the time
00:13:29 <kmc> which is enabled by default and can't be disabled
00:13:38 <Bike> well what is it
00:13:41 <kmc> which is that (Num t) no longer implies (Eq t) and (Show t)
00:13:50 <kmc> which can break some standards-following code
00:13:50 <Bike> oh. is that major
00:13:58 <elliott> it's not really actually major
00:14:00 <kmc> f :: (Num t) => t -> String; f = show
00:14:08 <kmc> that types in H2010 but not in GHC
00:14:08 <Bike> like it's incompatible obviously
00:14:18 <kmc> you will find real world code that breaks
00:14:21 <kmc> not a ton of it but it does exist
00:14:34 <kmc> actually none because there is no real world code in haskell, lolololololololololol
00:14:47 <elliott> i would very much like for ghc to deviate from the standard more
00:15:00 <elliott> like there is no excuse for Monad not to have the Applicative superclass
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00:15:05 <kmc> i like extensions but deviations that can't be disabled is a bigger deal
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00:15:26 <Bike> question is it possible to mention haskell without complaining about people complaining about "real languages" etc in a sarcastic way
00:15:31 <FreeFull> kmc: I don't think Num has a Show restriction in GHC
00:15:38 <elliott> Bike: kmc just likes complaining
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00:15:45 <kmc> and you can't realistically do that with Num because then haskell2010:Prelue.Num and base:Prelude.Num are different classes in the compiler and libraries can't be intermixed
00:15:56 <kmc> FreeFull: yes that's what we were just talking about?
00:16:11 <shachaf> kmc: How should breaking changes like that be made?
00:16:12 <Bike> when i become a famous whatever i become i'm gong to write all my code in snobol and make people translate it into whatever they use
00:16:17 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know
00:16:22 <Bike> i will be a legendary ass
00:16:26 <elliott> kmc: the standard that is woefully inadequate to interpret the meaning of all haskell code (because even if you don't use extensions, your dependencies do) should not hold back haskell in practice
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00:16:49 <shachaf> I think it would be good if there was more than one Haskell compiler.
00:16:58 <elliott> it is a fairly niche language, keeping the Monad hierarchy in the stone age because it's not written down on a piece of paper for a standardisation process that moves glacially and uncertainly is a one-way ticket to stagnation
00:17:07 <kmc> i wish there was more clarity (especially for beginners) on which extensions are necessary and proper for everyone, and which ones are batshit stuff added last week
00:17:07 <shachaf> kmc's point would be much less pedantic if anything except GHC was actually viable.
00:17:21 <FreeFull> Or skip Haskell and write an Idris implementation
00:17:21 <kmc> I think my point doesn't have anything to do with the number of language implementations
00:17:25 <kmc> but whatever
00:17:28 <elliott> if there was actually an active haskell standardisation process that incorporated more than the most trivial of extensions and published fairly regularly then deviations would be worse
00:17:30 <kmc> Haskell 2010 isn't a formal spec anyway
00:17:35 <elliott> as it is they are necessary
00:17:36 <kmc> SML 4 lyfe
00:17:51 <Bike> when you say "formal" are you talking about denotational semantics or something because, seriously
00:18:05 <elliott> like haskell 2010 is frankly a joke in terms of the progress made in practical haskell vs. the progress the standard made over 12 years
00:18:07 <shachaf> "the only kind of semantics"
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00:18:21 <Bike> operational semantics are for lame-os not mathy at all shachaf!!
00:18:40 <Bike> i need to cut down on the exclamation points
00:18:41 <kmc> Bike: i'm talking about what mathematicians mean by "formalism"
00:18:47 <kmc> and rules for manipulating them
00:18:52 <kmc> you can do formal operational semantics too
00:19:19 <kmc> every certifying compiler for C has a formalized operational semantics of x86 code, mechanized in Coq or something
00:19:31 <kmc> mmmmm certifying compilers
00:19:48 <Bike> How well does formalizing x86 even work?
00:20:08 <kmc> you have to stick to some subset
00:20:10 <elliott> kmc: it's only ppc that's been done afaik
00:20:23 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor.
00:20:23 <elliott> also compcert like fails to do something dumb
00:20:29 <elliott> like idk goto into the middle of switch or something
00:20:31 <kmc> NaCl sticks to a subset such that proof carying code isn't necessary
00:20:35 <elliott> but it's something relevant enough that it can't compile anything real
00:20:41 <kmc> you can check the program directly rather than checking a proof output by the compiler
00:20:43 <Gregor> <kmc> every certifying compiler for C has a formalized operational semantics of x86 code, mechanized in Coq or something // all one of them.
00:21:07 <Fiora> what sort of x86 instructions are "problematic" for formalized x86?
00:21:18 <elliott> great hexcellent c (compiler)
00:21:32 <elliott> periodic reminder that ghc's full name is The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System
00:21:33 <Bike> Is it really the individual instructions? I would have guessed it was the shitload of weird state
00:21:41 <kmc> i like how there are approximately 0 static analysis tools for Haskell despite people constantly going on about how it's a perfect language to reason about mechanically
00:21:52 <kmc> setting aside the GHC type checker
00:21:56 <Bike> doesn't ghc const- right.
00:22:01 <elliott> i think kmc is on a quest to go on about haskell myths more than the myths themselves
00:22:20 <kmc> yes, weird state, non-aligned instructions
00:22:24 <Bike> well, you know that old saying, formal analysis whatever will only matter when you can do it without understanding shit
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00:22:38 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Take a stress pill and think things over.
00:22:43 <kmc> also there are just a lot of instructions and variations of the architecture
00:23:22 <shachaf> @remember SaulGorn A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
00:23:26 <Bike> Fiora: like as an x86 programmer you know better than anybody how complicated it is to understand, and as a programmer you know how hard mapping "thing i understand -> thing the computer does" is.
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00:23:50 <kmc> it's not hard to write x86 assembly though, it's just hard to reason about arbitrary weird x86 assembly
00:23:57 <kmc> and the same is true for static analysis
00:24:09 <kmc> it's easier for a compiler to produce a binary and understand what it does, even certify it
00:24:11 <Bike> Who's Saul Gorn
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00:24:28 <Bike> A pioneer of something something.
00:24:28 <kmc> than to analyze some obfuscated malware you found on russian rapidshare
00:24:33 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, that's why it confused me a little bit, since, like, if you're generating the assembly, you shouldn't have to avoid some instructions
00:24:34 <Bike> With a wikiquote.
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00:24:52 <Fiora> only for analyzing existing assembly it might be an issue I'd think?
00:24:54 <Bike> Fiora: well like, kmc mentioned misaligned instructions; the nacl subset doesn't have those at all
00:25:06 <Fiora> nacl isn't proof carrying like he said though, right?
00:25:13 <kmc> yeah, and this means that indirect jumps have to be preceded by a mask instruction iirc
00:25:19 <kmc> yeah with NaCl the proof is implicit
00:25:30 <Bike> "it's in nacl so it works"?
00:25:31 <kmc> "correct by inspection"
00:25:36 <Fiora> yeah, nacl does a thing where no instructions can cross 32 byte boundaries
00:25:41 <Fiora> and all calls and stuff are aligned to 32 bytes
00:25:46 <Bike> I wonder if that runs into godel problems.
00:25:47 <Fiora> which avoids the trick of being able to jump to the middle of an instruction
00:25:54 <kmc> mmm JIT spraying
00:26:07 <Bike> keep your fetishes out of here sir
00:26:11 <Fiora> and execute misaligned instructions, which lets you smuggle in instructions you weren't supposed to be able to
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00:26:34 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 5
00:26:55 <Bike> it looks gross
00:26:56 <kmc> PaX's implementation of amd64 KERNEXEC (preventing ring0 from jumping to user code) is also based on masking indirect jumps
00:27:22 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 0
00:27:23 <Bike> oh mutual recursion
00:27:36 <Bike> i'm so glad oleg wrote a mutfix combinator for me so i could avoid thinking about it
00:27:57 <Fiora> nacl is actually kinda cool, it's really impressive how little it has to require to prove things safe
00:27:59 <Sgeo|web> I think lambdabot's dead. I tried it on TryHaskell and it worked for 0 but not for anything else
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00:37:39 <Sgeo|web> fwiw there is no other side of the split
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00:42:02 <kmc> there is no dark side of the moon really
00:42:05 <kmc> matter of fact it's all dark
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00:43:50 <elliott> kmc: i too have consumed this cultural product
00:43:55 <Gregor> Yeah, especially the part that's reflecting sunlight and thus not dark by definition.
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00:47:41 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 5
00:47:55 <elliott> @tell ais523 2013/03/25 00:46:24 [error] 23940#0: *5967814 FastCGI sent in stderr: "PHP message: PHP Fatal error: Call to a member function getVar() on a non-object in /srv/esolangs.org/www/mediawiki/extensions/AbuseFilter/special/SpecialAbuseLog.php on line 281" while reading response header from upstream, client: 95.146.57.2, server: esolangs.org, request: "GET /wiki/Special:AbuseLog/33 HTTP/1.1", upstream: "fastcgi://unix:/var/run/php5-fpm.sock:
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00:47:57 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 0
00:48:10 <elliott> @tell ais523 this is the error I get when trying to view the broken abuse log page
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00:48:33 <elliott> @tell ais523 that line is just "if ( $vars->getVar( 'action' )->toString() == 'edit' ) {" -- I think I'll just try updating the wiki
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00:50:45 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd n)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even n))))) 1
00:51:00 <elliott> are you even reading the code you are asking it to evaluate.
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00:56:58 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else not (odd (n-1))),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else not (even (n-1)))))) 5
00:57:49 <elliott> another hint: even n = not (odd n).
00:57:51 <Bike> Sgeo|web: lose the nots
00:57:55 <elliott> then look at your selse branch.
00:58:14 <Bike> the weird thing is i went through this same thing myself yesterday. what's up with that
00:59:04 <Sgeo|web> > snd (fix (\(~(even, odd)) -> ((\n -> if n == 0 then True else odd (n-1)),(\n -> if n == 0 then False else even (n-1))))) 5
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01:07:19 <oerjan> FreeFull: because t is the default type variable used when there are no type annotations involved that it can borrow variable names from
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01:08:17 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: fnord in x
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01:08:55 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: fnord in (x, x)
01:09:27 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: a in (x, x)
01:10:12 <oerjan> seems it sometimes gets used even when there _is_ an annotation. vagaries of unification i guess.
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01:19:48 <oerjan> :t let x = x; x :: argle bargle in (x, x)
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01:27:31 <oerjan_> we should be the other kind of esoteric, then we could put a curse on the ddoser or something.
01:27:56 <Lymia> :t let x = x; x :: (lots of sugar, whole fat milk, whipped eggs) -> delicious baked goods in x
01:27:58 <Bike> verily i say unto you, ddoser: cut this shit out, it's boring
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01:28:04 <Bike> Sgeo|web: did you get the global notice
01:28:08 <oerjan_> Sgeo|web: said so in status message
01:28:25 <Bike> wonder who's doing it
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01:29:59 <Bike> kloeri(~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri)- [Global Notice] Hi again. The network issues is caused by a DDoS attack and we're working with our sponsors to have it filtered. Depending on how bored the attacker is it could be a while before everything is back to normal however. Sorry about the stability issues caused by this.
01:30:04 <oerjan_> lambdabot seems ddosed enough
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01:50:46 <Arc_Koen> Depending on how bored the attacker is it could be a while before everything is back to normal however.
01:51:13 <Arc_Koen> I was just watching that movie where there is a bomb on a plane
01:52:00 <kmc> isn't that most movies
01:52:25 <Arc_Koen> I could imagine the captain informing the passengers "ladies and gentlemen, we appear to have a device aboard the plane. it might be a bomb. we're working with the fbi to have it disarmed. depending on how bored the bomber is it could go off any second, or not at all."
01:52:46 <Arc_Koen> well maybe, but in that one there's nothing else to the movie
01:53:11 <Bike> so, most movies
01:54:44 <elliott> i can't tell whether it's my connection or lambdabot's that's broken
01:54:56 <Bike> imo lambdabot's
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01:57:23 <oerjan_> maybe it's lambdabot doing the ddosing
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02:00:16 <HackEgo> surma: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:01:09 <Arc_Koen> waiting such a long time FOR NO MESSAGES
02:01:23 <Arc_Koen> don't you just hate it when that happens
02:01:59 -!- Sanky has joined.
02:02:04 <Arc_Koen> now I feel like when that girl was supposed to call me and then didn't
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02:03:42 <oerjan_> i vaguely recall that it's stereotypically never the girl's job to call
02:06:15 <Arc_Koen> well I'm working based on my experience
02:07:10 <Arc_Koen> the girl was attracted to me in 100% of the situations where she was the one who called
02:07:49 <Arc_Koen> the percentages in the situations where I was the one to call aren't nearly as high
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02:14:25 <Sgeo> ) 'are we recovered?'
02:15:45 <oerjan_> i'm afraid jconn made the final sacrifice, Sgeo
02:18:54 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust have_faith_she_will_call >>>>>++++++++++([]++++++++++>>>>>>>>>----<<<<<<<<<<)*-1
02:19:02 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_have_faith_she_will_call: 0.0
02:19:16 <Arc_Koen> ok that was supposed to be low but I had faith for not so low
02:19:21 <Fiora> that one kind of looks like it commits suicide
02:19:46 <Arc_Koen> well first it only works if the tape is 14 or something
02:19:52 <oerjan_> indeed a little too left-leaning
02:20:12 <elliott> note that fixed-tape-size BF Joust is trivial/uninteresting... so it's hard to do much with warriors that assume it
02:20:21 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust have_faith_she_will_call >>>>>++++++++++([]++++++++++>>>>>>>>>----<<<<<<<<<)*-1
02:20:25 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_have_faith_she_will_call: 0.0
02:21:04 <oerjan_> you may just as well join a convent at this rate
02:21:09 <Arc_Koen> elliott: I had some foolish hope that I could win on 14 and tie on enough other lengths
02:22:02 <elliott> btw you might want to try it in egojsout or such
02:22:22 <oerjan_> Arc_Koen: that [] will not let you out until the opponent clears it
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02:25:00 <Arc_Koen> ohhhh right you mean it's too late when I see it
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02:27:01 <oerjan_> !bfjoust maybe_without_a_power_of_2 >>>>>++++++++++([]++++++++++>>>>>>>>>-----<<<<<<<<<)*-1
02:27:05 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan__maybe_without_a_power_of_2: 0.0
02:27:50 <Arc_Koen> well if it doesn't divide 128 it's hopeless
02:28:16 <oerjan_> ...you're assuming the opponent doesn't tweak their flag?
02:28:54 <Arc_Koen> well otherwise there is no point in using ()*-1 as if it were an actual loop
02:30:27 <Arc_Koen> but [] doesn't work anyway. it can only see the flag is 0 on the second turn, when it's already over
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02:38:43 -!- kmc has set topic: The 17th vigintile welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | Safe when used as directed. | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for chips. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:39:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:39:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.4
02:39:47 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow +>>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:39:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.9
02:39:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow +>>->>->+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:39:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.7
02:40:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow ->>-->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.2
02:40:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow ---->>-->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 27.9
02:40:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow ---->>++>>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.3
02:40:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
02:40:25 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.4
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02:47:01 <Arc_Koen> Lymia: are you just spamming with the exact same program? oO
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02:48:28 <Bike> there are small differences, as you can see by just glancing at the lengths
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02:52:56 <Arc_Koen> oh, I thought the difference in score was due to the hill changing
02:53:13 <Arc_Koen> definitely time to go to bed :)
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03:06:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
03:08:31 <Bike> okay ignoring that incompetence for a second, Enum for floats seems quite weird.
03:09:09 <elliott> Bike: it is to make ranges work
03:09:14 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.1,0.2,0.30000000000000004,0.4000000000000001,0.5000000000000001,0.60...
03:09:23 <Bike> my kind of range
03:09:32 <elliott> it's very bad & a big wart in the design
03:09:52 <Bike> yeah lyam already said to, i'm just wondering what possessed them to come up with that
03:10:06 <Bike> i mean there is an actual enumeration for floats! it's just kind of useless for this
03:10:29 <Bike> learn yourself an ML
03:10:56 <elliott> well it's design by committee
03:10:59 <elliott> there are always goign to be flaws
03:11:34 <Bike> let me rephrase. I don't mean "why are there flaws" because indeed of course there are going to be flaws. I mean "what was the idea behind this particular flaw"
03:12:28 <elliott> ok the answer is that humans are stupid
03:12:44 <elliott> i mean there are 500 page long email threads about how ranges should be done and separated from Enum and shit
03:12:49 <elliott> it's just that you want to be able to do like
03:12:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input `]'
03:13:10 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
03:13:22 <elliott> and basically Enum works reasonably for everything execpt floats
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03:13:29 <elliott> so they just get a bad instance instead
03:13:39 <elliott> (well Enum fails for Integer because it gives conversion to Int but those just error out outside the range sooo)
03:13:44 <elliott> and splitting this stuff up is non-obvious
03:13:47 <elliott> like there are multiple ways you can do it
03:13:51 <elliott> and also redundancies with the Ix typeclass
03:14:20 <Bike> typeclasses seem like a weird way to organize all around, honestly
03:14:45 <elliott> typeclasses are a very good point in the design space really
03:14:55 <elliott> like they are basically generalised OOP interfaces
03:15:07 <elliott> for something like Functor or Monad or whatever they're perfect
03:15:29 <elliott> you provide a bunch of definitions the type should support and you're done -- whether they produce values of that type or consume them or whatever
03:15:53 <Bike> well, ok yeah, functor and monad seem pretty boss. but like the numeric ones?
03:15:59 <shachaf> Type classes aren't used for the same things OO interfaces are typically used for, though.
03:16:11 * shachaf hates having fallen asleep during the day.
03:16:13 <kmc> lyam? Learn You A MUMPS
03:16:20 <Bike> well ok i already asked about the numeric ones forget i mentioned that again
03:16:29 <elliott> Bike: you can do some "ok" numeric heirarchies with typeclasses
03:16:34 <elliott> Num itself is awful but it works
03:16:47 <Bike> good design criterion
03:16:52 <elliott> like they're not perfect but typeclasses are novel and a lot better than most of the alternatives
03:16:55 <shachaf> kmc: Now I feel awful and will continue feeling so for a few hours.
03:16:58 <kmc> Num is an awesome, elegant typeclass that celebrates craftsmanship
03:17:00 <shachaf> kmc: Then I won't be able to fall asleep at night.
03:17:03 <kmc> shachaf: why awful though?
03:17:08 <Bike> having never programmed long in like ML I have no idea what the alternatives are
03:17:09 <elliott> by novel I mean, Haskell is mostly an amalgamation of previously-implemented stuff in the (lazy) functional programming community
03:17:21 <elliott> but ML or wahtever doesn't have typeclasses
03:17:25 <elliott> and those languages suffer for the lack
03:17:27 <Bike> That's what I mean.
03:17:32 <kmc> i find that even falling asleep at 23:00 instead of 01:00 will make me wake up a few hrs later and not get back to sleep
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03:17:37 <Bike> I don't know in what specific fashion they suffer (though it's easy to believe they do)
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03:18:04 <elliott> Bike: like for instance, consider Map
03:18:16 <kmc> 2 + 3, 2.0 +. 3.0
03:18:16 <elliott> you have a type (Map k a) representing an associative mapping of ks to as, yr standard old dictionary type
03:18:32 <elliott> all the functions Just Work as long as you've defined an Ord instance for k (because it uses a tree based on the order)
03:18:42 <elliott> you don't have to explicitly pass in your comparison function when creating the Map
03:18:51 <elliott> unioning two Maps is safe because there can only be one Ord instance for k
03:19:01 <elliott> so it can use a more efficient union algorithm, because it knows the orderings of two (Map k a)s must coincide
03:19:25 <elliott> and yeah what kmc said -- you don't have to have separate arithmetic literals, operators etc. for every single data type
03:19:32 <Bike> let me find an example of why i'm wondering
03:19:43 <kmc> basically typeclasses were invented as a way to do 'operator overloading', but have since been used for a lot more
03:19:49 <kmc> that's the story I know anywya
03:19:53 <kmc> it might be revisionist history
03:20:23 <shachaf> Available in: dvi, ps, dvi.gz, ps.gz.
03:20:34 <kmc> laziness inspires purity, which is otherwise useful. purity inspires monadic IO, which is otherwise useful. monadic IO inspires monads, which are otherwise useful
03:20:39 <kmc> really quite a chain of luck there
03:20:48 <kmc> shachaf: what would zzo38 do
03:21:00 <Bike> like "The nub, delete, union, intersect and group functions all have their more general counterparts called nubBy, deleteBy, unionBy, intersectBy and groupBy." so obviously the type classes are used in the first group, like "defaults", but then you have a second one for when you want to do some non-global thing?
03:21:08 <shachaf> I should get a thing that says that.
03:21:21 <Bike> dvi.gz, that might be new to me
03:21:23 <kmc> Bike: yeah but if you did that for Map you would have the problem that elliott mentioned
03:21:23 <elliott> Bike: well in that case you can think of nub as simply a synonym for nubBy cmpare
03:21:26 <shachaf> Bike: Well, that is hardly unique to Haskell.
03:21:38 <shachaf> It just has a different mechanism for defining what < means on a type.
03:21:38 <elliott> they are conveniences for when you want to use the "normal" comparison function
03:21:46 <elliott> but the operations themselves are much more general
03:21:47 <kmc> python and perl sorts also let you specify your own comparison optionally
03:21:52 <elliott> with something like Map, the fact that instances are "global" is an *advantage*
03:21:54 <kmc> and, oh god, C++
03:22:10 <Bike> I thought like everything with a builtin sort let you specify your own comparison.
03:22:11 <kmc> and good old qsort(3)! but then you aren't really given a sensible default
03:22:24 <elliott> like it's more, the perspective should be that nub etc. are convenience definitions in terms of nubBy
03:22:27 <elliott> rather than nubBy being "generalised nub"
03:22:37 <Bike> elliott: i get that.
03:22:41 <kmc> there should be a language named rubby
03:22:53 <kmc> also <kmc> performing arbitrary computation by means of conditional vacation autoresponders
03:23:03 <Bike> Well, I guess it could go either way. generalization is hard to do
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03:23:36 <shachaf> q what is the obvious generalizsation of (.)?
03:23:38 <Bike> generaliszation, n. generalization by szilard
03:23:48 <shachaf> Bike: i was thinking of liszt
03:23:55 <Bike> was he a physicist? imo no
03:24:03 <kmc> anyway sometimes the 'one implementation per type' property of typeclasses is useful, which is why you can't consider them to be purely sugar for implicit arguments
03:24:12 <kmc> but that is a way to think of them and also an implementation strategy
03:24:15 <elliott> implicit arguments aren't fashionable
03:24:29 <kmc> elliott: scala and agda have them, checkmate
03:24:36 <kmc> Bike: the Map thing elliott mentioned above
03:24:53 <kmc> if you're unioning two Maps, implemented as binary search trees, you want to know that they were constructed with the same comparison function
03:24:56 <elliott> agda's implicit parameters are nothing like haskell's
03:25:14 <shachaf> elliott: you can't argue with checkmate..............................
03:25:20 <kmc> you can't do that if the compr. function is just an arg to the map ctor
03:25:26 <Bike> I don't think I get that example, you could like, have Maps store their comparison functions (or some more realistic mechanism for the same thing)
03:25:35 <kmc> Bike: yeah but then you need to check for equality
03:25:35 <shachaf> Bike: But you can't compare comparison functions.
03:25:38 <kmc> of functns
03:25:45 <kmc> and if they don't match it's a runtime err
03:25:47 <shachaf> Bike: If you know that the two functions are the same, you can just stick two trees together.
03:25:57 <kmc> \rainbow{extensional equality}
03:26:21 <Bike> Is that a problem? You can just use pointer comparison, the programmer can't reasonably expect extensional equivalence towork
03:26:24 <kmc> oh no i'm a meme pollinator
03:26:29 <shachaf> /bin/map-union one.btr two.btr
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03:27:59 <Bike> I mean with the global you're just making "there is one global [overloaded] comparison function" part of the system to solve that problem.
03:28:30 <shachaf> Right, which is enforced by the language.
03:29:34 <Bike> But then what happens when you want a map on something that already has an Ord instance you don't want for that specificity?
03:29:46 <Bike> I guess you could like, make a type alias or whatever
03:30:22 <kmc> 'now you have two problems'
03:30:37 <shachaf> But I don't know how else to get the desired properties, really.
03:30:49 <shachaf> Pointer equality is not a good answer.
03:31:40 <Bike> Why not? Well, I guess Haskell doesn't have Eq for functions so you can't do it.
03:31:57 <shachaf> Well, you don't really want to have Eq for functions.
03:31:58 <elliott> <Bike> Is that a problem? You can just use pointer comparison, the programmer can't reasonably expect extensional equivalence towork
03:32:01 <shachaf> elliott would like to explain why.
03:32:23 <elliott> Bike: so now the asymptotic performance of your map union algorithm depends on whether you use myComparisonFunction or (\x -> myComparisonFunction x)
03:32:30 <elliott> ando ther such operational details that the language guarantees nothing about
03:32:46 <elliott> not only that but you need an unsafe (impure) pointer comparison operation implement Map
03:32:54 <Bike> I just don't understand when the lambda would come up, reasonably speaking?
03:33:23 <elliott> that was just an example. it could also be myComparisonFunction and myComparisonFunction
03:33:34 <elliott> maybe the implementation copied it underneath. you don't know. Haskell doesn't speak about operational semantics at all
03:33:54 <elliott> and generally I think it's nice to be able to state union's big-O without saying "but if the pointer comparison fails..." :P
03:34:00 <shachaf> Bike: dude Bike what is the meaning of function pointer equality
03:34:16 <shachaf> denotational semantics plz
03:34:20 <elliott> the global instances property also gives us nice things like the open world assumption
03:34:25 <Bike> but it gives me hives :(
03:34:31 <elliott> which basically means your program can't break by adding instances
03:34:34 <elliott> it's a bit more subtle than that though
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03:35:06 <Bike> i do like open world assumptions.
03:35:45 <lambdabot> [1.5,2.5,3.5,4.5,5.5,6.5,7.5,8.5,9.5,10.5]
03:35:48 <shachaf> did someone mention that one to Bike............
03:36:01 <Bike> It's actually what started this?
03:36:20 <Bike> Assuming you mean Enum for floats being weirdass and not that specific enumeration.
03:36:28 <shachaf> i just saw a discussion of instance Num blah
03:36:41 <Bike> Oh. Um what do you mean?
03:37:41 <Bike> I think I mostly latched onto that 'cos i just read a thing that used the actual nextfloat function.
03:38:24 <shachaf> imo unsafeCoerce ((unsafeCoerce (10.5::Double)::Integer)+1)::Double
03:38:45 <Bike> I think I'm with monqy on unsafeCoerce.
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03:39:07 <shachaf> The great thing about unsafeCoerce is that it does what you mean.
03:39:07 <Bike> cast to bigint, watch the system go down in flames
03:39:38 <shachaf> Integer is implemented with Int# for small values.
03:39:47 <shachaf> If you overflow it'll crash, though.
03:39:48 <Bike> psh nonstandard
03:40:01 <Sgeo> I just made a norn that should be practically braindead. It's fully capable of eating and playing with toys
03:41:53 <kmc> shachaf: have u ever, like, really compared two pointers
03:42:16 <shachaf> imo (==) :: Ptr Apple -> Ptr Orange -> Bool
03:42:21 <Bike> have you ever looked at your page table? like, really looked at your page table
03:42:47 <kmc> Bike: yeah Linux has /proc/$pid/pagemap
03:43:00 <kmc> which tells you inter alia the physical page frame number for every page in your address space
03:43:27 <Bike> someday i'll stop overusing stoner jokes. or at least actually get stoned and then continue using them
03:43:45 <shachaf> Bike: imo learn category theory then make more stoner jokes
03:43:52 <shachaf> bonus points if its higher category theory??
03:43:57 <elliott> i admit i really liked the left adjoint one
03:44:00 <kmc> what was that one
03:44:07 <Bike> god why do you have to be talking about real things
03:44:51 <kmc> I'm the Vice President of the United States, you stupid little fuckers!
03:45:16 <elliott> 18:50:27 <elliott> I have friends in high places
03:45:19 <Bike> is that from that mech game or is it something cheney actually said at some point
03:45:24 <elliott> <shachaf> Maybe they're in high places because elliott left adjoint somewhere.
03:45:32 <Bike> OK, that's pretty good.
03:45:39 <Bike> oh it's from TV ok
03:46:05 <kmc> it sounds like something Nixon would say except s/Vice //
03:46:08 <elliott> that was before shachaf learned about the three ways functors could be related
03:46:27 <shachaf> elliott: what are the ways again
03:47:35 <HackEgo> 957) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
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03:49:14 <shachaf> oops i said "TV" capitaliszed.......
03:49:31 <Bike> I thought it was from that one video game where you fight the vice president in a giant robot.
03:49:56 <Bike> No, you play as the president.
03:50:16 <shachaf> and you defeat the other president
03:50:24 <Bike> The vice president.
03:51:09 <shachaf> imo you're not talking about Sam & Max Episode 104: Abe Lincoln Must Die
03:51:39 <Bike> Indeed I'm not. Does that actually involve robots? I thought Sam & Max usually just beat people up.
03:51:49 <shachaf> It was sort of a robot, wasn't it?
03:51:58 <shachaf> Maybe the president you fight is also the robot.
03:52:11 <Bike> I was thinking of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/Metalwolfcover.jpg
03:53:34 <kmc> http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/Sandwich35/wootstrike-21f-fa.gif?t=1296026584
03:54:03 <Bike> wow, the prelude in the standard has a whole lexer in it for some reason
03:54:14 <kmc> for use by derived Read instances I think
03:54:31 <Bike> i mean, in the example prelude
03:54:33 <kmc> it's like a shitty parser combinator library
03:55:16 <Bike> why is this gif about nuking israel
03:55:46 <Sgeo> The norn I created basically does not have wires leading from "I'm hungry" to "eat food"
03:55:50 <Sgeo> Or any similar connections
03:56:03 <Sgeo> It has wires from seeing and hearing to wanting to do things with what it sees and hears
03:56:13 <Sgeo> But it doesn't make decisions based on its drives
03:56:29 <Sgeo> creatureswiki.net
03:56:30 <kmc> it's about being the Shadow President
03:56:48 <kmc> and the bad decisions you can make as Shadow President
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04:06:38 <zzo38> Now I want to implement the polls in Internet Quiz Engine. However, to do that, it should write the data to another file, and then use another program to make it into a SQL code, and then use SQL to make the statistics of the result.
04:07:56 <Bike> we only have one?
04:08:03 <zzo38> Saved from what? The power lines? Humanity? The sun? Or, perhaps, from the keys on your computer that the letters have been rubbed off?
04:08:43 <Bike> Do any of us hunt and peck
04:09:15 <zzo38> O, I forgot, maybe is save from the giant robot.
04:09:38 <Sgeo> Bike, I've hunted and pecked for so long that it's become know and peck
04:09:46 <Sgeo> It's been know and peck for a while
04:10:00 <Bike> You actually don't know how to touch type. is that what you're telling me.
04:10:19 <Sgeo> Touch typing is where you keep your hands in the same place and just move fingers?
04:10:23 <Sgeo> Yes, I don't know how to do that.
04:10:26 <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
04:10:31 <Sgeo> Although all my fingers get used when I type
04:10:43 <Bike> I need like video of this or something.
04:10:50 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
04:10:54 <HackEgo> 992) <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
04:10:57 <elliott> i touch-type except i don't keep my fingers on the home row
04:11:04 <zzo38> Are they going to get to one thousand?
04:11:14 <Bike> does anyone like actually keep their fingers on the board
04:11:25 <kmc> i use the kinesis contoured keyboard which means keeping your fingers on the home row feels incredibly good
04:11:32 <kmc> almost as good as sex to be quite honest
04:11:38 <zzo38> Bike: I do (except when I am not typing)
04:11:48 <elliott> combined keyboard/teledildonic that rewards keeping your fingers on the home ro
04:11:56 <elliott> i guess you don't really need the nic there
04:11:57 <Bike> anyway what paper should i read: lockery, buhrmann, fernando, harvey, di paolo, or some other one
04:12:12 <zzo38> Bike: What other one is it?
04:12:19 <elliott> do i have to pick just from the names
04:12:40 <Bike> i don't want to paste the paper titles they're long and as previously established my hands don't stay on the board long enough
04:12:52 <elliott> what are these papers about B. T. W.
04:12:54 <kmc> `pastequotes zzo38
04:12:58 <elliott> i need a bigger dot i think
04:13:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24070
04:13:18 <elliott> as previously established,[1] worms[2] are gross.[3]
04:13:18 <Bike> hey fuck you roundworms are my totem :( :(
04:13:39 <elliott> are you like a biologist or something
04:13:41 <Sgeo> Bike, you should play worms
04:13:58 <Bike> also roundworms aren't actually annelids
04:14:05 <Bike> because names of animals are really dumb?
04:14:08 <kmc> `quote 246
04:14:10 <HackEgo> 246) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want.
04:14:14 <zzo38> I don't mind if roundworms are your totem, but it doesn't help if the [1][2][3] you don't know the notes.
04:14:23 <Bike> Hey that was elliott. Blame him.
04:14:28 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
04:14:35 <Bike> This doesn't say anything about any worms.
04:14:39 <zzo38> Therefore you should fill it in if you want to know the answer of it.
04:15:04 <Bike> oh i forgot worms aren't actually a phylum anyway
04:15:13 <Bike> why the paraphyly elliott? something to hide??
04:15:39 <elliott> meanwhile my pertinent question has not been answered
04:15:58 <Bike> oh i'm too young to be an anything
04:16:06 <elliott> what are you a pretend thing of again
04:16:28 <Bike> computational neuroethology! it's totes a real field i didn't just make up to make you stop asking
04:16:47 <Bike> more importantly i think gross things are cute.
04:17:08 <zzo38> Once someone asked me to make a computer program to figure out the distance from here to the moon. This was many years ago. Now I have a program to calculate the distance from here to the moon.
04:17:19 <kmc> `quote 865
04:17:21 <HackEgo> 865) <zzo38> If you write in the text using Unicode then how are you supposed to know if you mean seraphim have seven eyes or do they have ten?
04:17:40 <elliott> Bike: oh are you one of those secretive people
04:17:42 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anguis this is dumb. this is so dumb. animals are dumb
04:17:45 <elliott> i assumed you'd already said
04:17:48 <kmc> ^----- you use SERAPHIM EYE COUNT SEQUENCE INITIATOR followed by any number of SERAPHIM EYE COUNT SEQUENCE DIGIT 0 through SERAPHIM EYE COUNT SEQUENCE DIGIT 9
04:18:04 <Bike> elliott: i hadn't already said because it's not much to do with this channel. that is actually my "dream field" though.
04:18:10 <elliott> Bike: is it philosophy. it's ok i know a guy studying philosophy. i only hate his guts 100%
04:18:18 <elliott> it would be 200% but he's also doing mathematics
04:18:41 <elliott> since when does anything have anything to do with this cahnenl
04:18:45 <zzo38> kmc: And then does the multiocular O code terminate it?
04:18:54 <kmc> i don't know
04:18:59 <Bike> http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Computational_neuroethology
04:19:03 <elliott> like you liking common lisp has nothing to do with this channel... but it's still the reason you're terrible
04:19:07 <kmc> perhaps they are combining chars on the multiocular O directly
04:19:23 <kmc> the above is how the (deprecated) language code indicators work
04:19:29 <elliott> Bike: i like how you can just stick "computational" onto the start of any field.
04:19:32 <kmc> with an entire copy of the latin alphabet as invisible combining chars
04:19:34 <Bike> i know, it's great
04:19:38 <kmc> but that's not modifying a specific character
04:19:51 <Bike> computational neuroethology leads to building machines with no other use but irritating small animals though
04:19:54 <Bike> so it's cool in my gook
04:20:04 <Bike> isn't computational english stylometry
04:20:14 <kmc> computational neurotheology
04:20:35 <Bike> neuro- is similar to computational in this respect, in that "neurotheology" is something that people actually say they do.
04:20:53 <Bike> I guess for making it computational you get Francis Dec to help out or something.
04:20:58 <elliott> i would definitely read about computational neurotheology
04:21:03 <Bike> computer gangster theology
04:21:09 <kmc> http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=oOYrCHi7yjM&start1=0&video2=FB18DV1SQmI&start2=0&authorName=crunkbourgeois&h=1
04:21:18 <Bike> crunkbourgeois eh
04:21:56 <Bike> okay this is great.
04:23:13 <Bike> what the hell is he even saying
04:23:26 <Bike> "maximum security insanity prison"
04:24:06 <Bike> i admire whoever read this. i could not keep this up
04:25:14 <Bike> he just said the sky isn't real
04:25:42 <elliott> i don't even hear the words. it's all one big thing
04:26:30 <Bike> deadly frankenstein communist gangster conspiracy worldwide systematic plastic surgery instantaneously
04:27:00 <kmc> http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=q2I5NvjhqwI&start1=219&video2=hKLpJtvzlEI&start2=240&authorName=Real
04:27:17 <elliott> oh is he saying the n word.
04:27:24 <elliott> i can't even tell what's going on.
04:28:16 <Bike> i guess crazy people are racist sometime?
04:28:27 <elliott> donate money, or even a manual typewriter, to me!
04:28:51 <zzo38> Which model of typewriters would be best for that purpose?
04:28:59 <Bike> hm i've never actually heard or read anything by alex jones before.
04:29:28 <kmc> http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=VgAXZHMi_ws&start1=0&video2=TMQLLqiKaas&start2=0&authorName=Ann+O%27Nymous
04:29:34 <Bike> holy shit jones.
04:29:42 <Bike> is he going to destroy the camera
04:29:59 <Sgeo> Is xkcd trying to make a fool of me or is there actually something
04:30:05 <kmc> can't it be both
04:30:19 <Bike> "i'm pissed off now" no really
04:30:19 <zzo38> According to my computer the distance from here to the moon is 0.0025718 AU
04:30:39 <Bike> thelliott for the "thmc" tidbit
04:30:46 <zzo38> (Just in case you need to know those distance)
04:32:40 <elliott> oh the rant thing kmc linked originally
04:32:44 <elliott> is something Bike already linked here??
04:32:47 <elliott> http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/containmentpolicy.htm
04:33:09 <Bike> iunno probably
04:34:38 <elliott> "iunno probably" -- Bike, Bike's tombstone
04:35:32 <Bike> what are you implying
04:36:02 <elliott> i'm implying you're going to die rip
04:36:51 <Sgeo> Your heart will explode.
04:37:48 <Sgeo> I should stop making what I think are BGO references because BGO is literally just references to other things
04:37:55 <Sgeo> I think Your heart will explode comes from WoW
04:38:37 <Bike> i remember it from kill bill so that means the original is some 1960s action film nobody's ever seen
04:40:03 <elliott> that reminds me of that one time i thought a princess bride reference was a kill bill reference (i haven't seen either) and everyone gave me shit about not having seen the princess bride for days :'|
04:41:04 <Bike> tch i'll bet you haven't seen The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies either you shrub
04:42:11 <Bike> In some screenings, employees in monster masks, sometimes including Steckler himself, would run into the theater to scare the audience (The gimmick was billed as "Hallucinogenic Hypnovision" on the film's posters).
04:42:33 <elliott> (sometimes "!!?" is appended to the title) --Wikipedia
04:42:41 <elliott> 2/10 on imdb, that's how you know it's good
04:43:05 <elliott> At the time of release, The Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies was the second longest titled film in the horror genre (Roger Corman's The Saga of the Viking Women and Their Voyage to the Waters of the Great Sea Serpent being the first).[1]
04:43:20 <elliott> This was not, however, the originally intended title of the film. As Steckler relates, the film was supposed to be titled The Incredibly Strange Creatures, or Why I Stopped Living and Became a Mixed-up Zombie, but was changed in response to Columbia Pictures' threat of a lawsuit over the name's similarity to Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb, which was under production at the time.[2]
04:43:22 <Bike> goddamn i haven't seen that one
04:43:31 <Bike> i bet they were totally serious
04:44:12 <elliott> The film currently holds a 2.5/10 user rating on IMDb.
04:44:18 <Sgeo> I still need to see Dr. Strangelove
04:44:18 <elliott> thats literally the entire criticism section of the wp article
04:44:28 <elliott> it doesn't even have a plot summary
04:47:00 <Bike> does it need one?
04:47:39 <Sgeo> At least I've seen The Princess Bride
04:48:03 <Bike> sgeo is clearly the superior elliott
04:48:25 <elliott> i think you'll find i am the optimal elliott
04:48:29 <coppro> elliott: you should add the metascore
04:48:34 <coppro> and the rotten tomatoes
04:49:10 <Sgeo> Add, not average, and don't put context of out of how many
04:49:59 <Bike> i give this film a 2+i
04:52:20 <elliott> hey Bike i'm bored. tell me to do something.
04:53:15 <coppro> elliott: go ride a bike
04:53:19 <coppro> (see what i did there)
04:54:08 <Bike> hm. what is a thing to do. an action one can take to be in the state of performing an action.
04:55:37 <Sgeo> You can breathe.
05:02:43 <Bike> it has to be something not boring. breathing sucks
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05:13:52 <Sgeo> http://totl.net/HonourSystem/ is broken :(
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05:20:25 <Sgeo> I think zzo38 might be interested in this http://data.totl.net/
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05:20:57 <Sgeo> Play Tic Tac Toe in RDF.
05:22:34 <kmc> oh good they have the Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge
05:23:01 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard_tax
05:23:33 <Bike> those that are included in this classification
05:25:20 <kmc> http://graphite.ecs.soton.ac.uk/browser/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2F01%2Frdf-schema%23Class#http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#Class
05:28:12 <kmc> shachaf: why
05:33:23 <zzo38> They have a list of things that cause and prevent cancer; some things are specified as both
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05:43:20 <zzo38> But these various datasets do show some examples of how these things works.
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05:47:17 <zzo38> Their tarot deck is not really a standard/generic deck. The standard Latin suits are swords, rods, money, and cups. Furthermore, the trumps do not have consistent names in different decks, but they are always numbered I to XXI (and sometimes the Fool (also called Excuse) is a trump, too).
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05:48:19 <zzo38> The different decks have suits based on the Latin suits; commoly seen is that the rods are wands and the coins have pentagrams on them.
05:49:08 <zzo38> There are other variants, too.
05:51:16 <shachaf> I,I Three undertrumps after an opponent's discard of a Trebled Fromp
05:52:13 <HackEgo> FireFly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:52:33 <zzo38> shachaf: But that is in Double Fanucci, not in tarot.
05:52:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever played Double Fanucci?
05:57:30 <zzo38> In some tarot decks the cups are called chalices. It doesn't matter what they are called; if something says the suit of "money" or of "pentacles" or "disks" then they mean the same suit; whatever suit happens to correspond to "money" in the deck you are using. Sometimes the Excuse card is simply called "the highest trump" (in PySol, for example); when it is a trump, it usually is the highest one, but it is not always a trump.
05:58:30 <zzo38> shachaf: It is easier to explain if you find the picture
06:01:01 <zzo38> You can call the trumps and Excuse card together "majors" (or "Major Arcana", but "majors" is shorter), and the other cards "minors" (or "Minor Arcana"). This is useful when those cards are not being used as trumps, to avoid confusion. (The game Chicks Rule calls them "bettys" since any suit (including the majors) can be trumps; I don't quite know why they didn't choose "majors")
06:04:33 <zzo38> They have an entire chess game in RDF? Actually they have only one state at a time, so it is not the complete game
06:05:10 <Bike_> do your chess games usually have multiple states at once
06:05:58 <zzo38> Some variants may have, though.
06:06:33 <zzo38> But I don't see anything like a XSLT file which will generate the RDF for the current state, or anything else like that.
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06:35:52 <HackEgo> sp0oky: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:38:12 <sp0oky> Just playing with my phone to see how well IRC works.
06:38:38 <Sgeo> Better than it was a little while ago
06:39:59 <Sgeo> I'm supposed to be asleep
06:40:04 <Sgeo> I have work tomorrow.
06:40:09 <Sgeo> What a weird sentence.
06:41:00 <elliott> i ignored Bike's suggestion because i have no way of playing mario kart right now
06:41:37 <sp0oky> I could on my snes emulator
06:42:33 <Bike> http://meatfighter.com/java4k2013/rainbowroad/
06:42:42 <kmc> Sgeo: is it your first day?
06:44:04 <kmc> congrats and good luck :)
06:44:55 <zzo38> You would need the game too, not only the emulator (or hardware). Have you written any game on SNES?
06:45:22 <sp0oky> No but u can download Roma
06:45:49 <zzo38> Well, yes, you need the ROM image of the game
06:46:24 <sp0oky> I have final fantasy maybe I'll play that
06:47:21 <zzo38> Play whatever you have; I made many computer games too, but there are others, too.
06:47:50 <zzo38> I thought there is many of Final Fantasy game?
06:48:29 <sp0oky> Choices are limited. All I have is my LG smartphone.
06:48:57 <zzo38> You don't have another computer or game console system or whatever?
06:49:52 <zzo38> There are games specifically for the smartphone, although there may also be emulators for other systems, allowing the same games to be played on a different systems.
06:49:53 <sp0oky> zzo38, nope. I live on the streets of la
06:51:17 <sp0oky> I need to go to an internet cafe so I can root this thing
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06:53:04 <zzo38> If you have Android, you can find several games, emulators, and others from http://pdroms.de/files/android/ and if you have an emulator you can download files for those other systems too.
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07:04:23 <[mbm]> square actually sells a final fantasy game for both iphone and android .. no need to run an emulator
07:12:16 <Bike> http://www.pnas.org/content/110/7/2641.abstract.html "neurocomputation". the prophecy of elliott has come to pass
07:13:03 <elliott> computational neurocomputation
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07:19:44 <zzo38> [mbm]: I didn't know that. But I think there are many Final Fantasy games, isn't it?
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07:26:57 <fizzie> They sell Android ports of 1, 2 and 3 (according to the proper numbering); and the 3 is the "3D" remake, the one that was made for the DS.
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07:29:19 <fizzie> And a mobile-exclusive thing called Final Fantasy Dimensions, AIUI.
07:30:43 <Jafet> // WARNING: Enabling sounds may compromise security if Crawl is installed setuid or setgid.
07:30:43 <Jafet> // #define SOUND_PLAY_COMMAND "/usr/bin/play -v .5 %s 2>/dev/null &"
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07:31:08 <Jafet> (I can't think of any system where crawl isn't setgid)
07:31:47 <shachaf> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 7965160 Nov 15 07:50 /usr/games/crawl
07:33:09 <monqy> sound in crawl. cute.
07:33:31 <Jafet> -rwxr-sr-x 1 root games 6824968 2010-10-16 14:35 crawl
07:33:44 <shachaf> glad to see you back in here
07:34:30 <monqy> il be gone another awhile "fair warning"
07:35:06 <fizzie> Is the sound in Crawl just plain growling?
07:35:08 <monqy> um idk maybe thursdayish
07:35:37 <monqy> fizzie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jkorg2xnYI
07:36:09 <shachaf> um is that crawl with tiles.....................
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07:37:34 <monqy> lots of people play crawl with tiles. i don't. i don't play crawl.
07:37:58 <fizzie> That is indeed very cute and not annoying at all.
07:40:29 <shachaf> wow these are some "hi quality sound fx"
07:40:44 <Deewiant> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 7.7M 2013-02-06 17:34 /usr/bin/crawl
07:41:05 <elliott> i can't think of any reason you'd run crawl as setgid
07:41:15 <elliott> certainly not if you're compiling it manually as you have to to get sound support
07:41:15 <monqy> wh ywould you install crawl locally
07:41:32 <shachaf> because "not everyoen has an interner contnectoin"
07:42:29 <monqy> but then you compile the 'git master'
07:43:13 <fizzie> "'Pow!' said Zaphod. 'Freeeoooo! Pop pop pop!'", to quote a book, in re the sound effects.
07:44:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OWDM it's about Crawl (with tiles)?
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08:17:22 <Lymia> Stupid evolver, I don't want 100 vibrators D:
08:17:33 <Lymia> At least attempt to rush!
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08:20:01 <Lymia> .<(.<(.<(.<)*-1)*-1(.<)*-1)*-1(.<(.<)*-1)*-1
08:20:04 <Lymia> nice individual you have there
08:20:23 <Bike> would be a shame if anything were to.... happen to it
08:20:24 <fizzie> You can open an adult store to get rid of them.
08:21:31 <Lymia> Bike, I would prefer that something happen to it
08:21:35 <fizzie> Lymia: I put in that thing I was talking about, the thing which takes a set of programs A, and then talks to the outside world over stdin/stdout, by accepting a program and outputting its scores against set A.
08:22:24 <fizzie> I haven't benchmarked at all how much that saves time w.r.t. just individual executions.
08:23:39 <fizzie> Perhaps I should run a quick test on the thing.
08:24:49 <Lymia> fizzie, in case you have a use for it
08:25:17 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/download/esolang/bfjoust-collection.tar.xz https://files.lymiahugs.com/egojoust-stats
08:25:48 <Lymia> http://files.lymiahugs.com/downloads/esolang/bfjoust-collection.tar.xz
08:26:09 <Lymia> The .tar.xz is Windows in compatible due to file names. Don't try that :p
08:27:40 <fizzie> Lymia: http://sprunge.us/fZLC those should be vaguely comparable benchmarks.
08:27:42 <Deewiant> 1036:ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid
08:28:24 <fizzie> (hill_nonl is hill with all newline characters stripped, because genelance interprets a newline as end of program.)
08:29:12 <fizzie> (I think I'll a lunch.)
08:29:26 <Lymia> fizzie, seems nice.
08:30:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust screwyouevolver (-)*-1
08:30:18 <Lymia> It seems that it never figures out how to rush
08:30:28 <Lymia> Unless you run it against the hill itself only for a few hundred generations
08:30:31 <Lymia> With ties counted as losses
08:31:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust i-appreciate-the-effort (-++)*-1
08:31:13 <elliott> Deewiant: i think that was one of my tweaking a random programs thing
08:31:28 <elliott> presumably whoeveritwas_shade (I think that was #1 at one point????)
08:31:54 <Deewiant> Or something like that, whatever his nick was
08:32:18 <Deewiant> Anyway, just an aside on all the sex-related stuff lately
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08:34:06 <Lymia> fizzie, can you add an optimization, like.
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08:34:13 <Lymia> If both programs end the reach of their code, call it a tie
08:34:23 <Lymia> And other similar things for programs that don't really do much
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08:42:25 <Lymia> Current best individual: -[--><])*-1
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08:42:38 <Lymia> Current best individual: -([--><])*-1
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08:42:51 <Lymia> I'm at a loss for words
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08:45:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([--><])*-1
08:45:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 13.2
08:45:45 <Deewiant> Isn't that equivalent to not having the *-1?
08:46:28 <Lymia> It's going to have a slight effect.
08:46:37 <Lymia> It'll take two ticks when it's zero.
08:46:42 <Lymia> .. which is very counterproductive
08:46:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([--><]+)*-1
08:46:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 13.2
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08:47:17 <Deewiant> Well, it got slightly more points
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08:48:01 <Effilry> Is there a difference between >< and .. ?
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08:48:16 <elliott> FireFly: yes, the latter kills you if you are at the edge of the tape
08:48:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([--..]+)*-1
08:48:37 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 13.2
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08:49:50 <FireFly> Now, what's *-1 ? I know that *n for positive n is for abbreviating repetition
08:49:57 <Lymia> *-1 is infinite repeat
08:50:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -[--..]
08:50:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 12.9
08:50:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -[[--..]]
08:50:20 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 12.2
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08:52:24 <Lymia> !bfjoust ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense -([->-<]+)*-1
08:52:27 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_ihopethisturnsintosomethingthatsnotdefense: 5.1
08:53:03 <Deewiant> Lymia: The extra [] adds a timing difference, even though it's essentially the same
08:54:17 <elliott> since the timing means it can change between ] and ]
08:59:22 <fizzie> *-1 is technically *100000 there.
08:59:27 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_bluh: 7.5
09:01:47 <Lymia> Evolver! You're supposed to be local minima-proof >_<;
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09:02:13 <fizzie> !bfjoust fibo (+-++---(+)*5(-)*8(+)*13(-)*21)*-1
09:02:17 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_fibo: 9.1
09:03:16 <lambdabot> Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0) = 0 and F(1) = 1.
09:03:16 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
09:03:37 <Jafet> !bfjoust batteries_not_included (+-)*-1
09:03:41 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_batteries_not_included: 6.2
09:04:42 <Deewiant> !bfjoust primary ((+)*2(-)*3(+)*5(-)*7(+)*11(-)*13(+)*17(-)*19(+)*23(-)*29(+)*31(-)*37(+)*41(-)*43(+)*47(-)*51)*-1
09:04:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_primary: 10.5
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09:05:29 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
09:05:49 <Bike> the best sequence.
09:05:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
09:05:53 <Deewiant> oeis.org, no need to kill lambdabot
09:06:18 <Jafet> @oeis 0 1 2 3 5 8 13
09:06:22 <lambdabot> Number of binary Lyndon words of length n with trace 1 and subtrace 1 over Z...
09:06:22 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,1,2,3,5,8,13,24,45,85,160,297,550,1024,1920,3626,6885,13107,24989,477...
09:06:35 <itsy> @oeis 0 1 3 4 6 6
09:06:47 <lambdabot> Minimum number of steps to reach n! starting from 1 and using the operations...
09:06:47 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,4,6,6,7,8,8,9,9,10]
09:07:12 <Jafet> I like how only 12 of those are known
09:07:17 <itsy> http://oeis.org/A217032 :-)
09:07:39 <itsy> Well, I know a few more :-)
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09:09:15 <itsy> @oeis 0 1 3 4 6 6 7 8 8 9 9 10 11 11 12 12 12
09:09:30 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
09:11:39 <lambdabot> [0,9,99,999,9999,99999,999999,9999999,99999999,999999999,9999999999,99999999...
09:12:30 <Lymia> !bfjoust you-can-rush-now (->->[-])*-1>[--[-]]
09:12:33 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_you-can-rush-now: 0.0
09:13:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust you-can-rush-now (->->[-])*-1
09:13:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_you-can-rush-now: 0.0
09:13:10 <Lymia> What is this black magic
09:13:39 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (->->[-].)*-1
09:13:40 <Lymia> Fatally incompatible fitness functions
09:13:41 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 0.0
09:13:50 <Fiora> !bfjoust test (->[-])*-1
09:13:52 <EgoBot> Score for Fiora_test: 14.0
09:14:03 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
09:14:08 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 0.0
09:18:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust makeupyourmind! --(--(--(---+)*-1-+)*-1-+)*-1-+
09:18:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_makeupyourmind_: 12.1
09:24:06 <elliott> Bike: i just realised i subconsciously associate you with the pink floyd song of the same name and keep hearing it when you say things. thought you should know
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09:27:07 <Fiora> there's a pink floyd song called bike?
09:27:16 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmW17QvUhRM
09:27:42 <Bike> i should make a table of every song called "Bike", so far I know two
09:28:04 <Bike> this is on pink floyd's first album. how the fuck did they ever get popular
09:28:54 <shachaf> Bike: are you named after a song..........................................
09:29:08 <shachaf> imo the song is named after you
09:29:40 <Bike> i'm named after a stuffed animal but i don't know what the stuffed animal is named after? probably me
09:32:52 -!- experience has joined.
09:33:56 <experience> The purpose pertains to all who are present within this room.
09:34:36 <experience> You shall be rewarded with esoteric porn.
09:34:43 <experience> Do you see it? No? Open your minds eye.
09:34:52 <Bike> `welcome experience
09:34:57 <HackEgo> experience: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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09:36:21 <experience> Oh, this is a programming oriented channel.
09:36:40 <experience> Esoteric programming? Like the code that makes up the Matrix?
09:36:55 <Bike> consult your pineal gland and learn the answer
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09:38:39 <Bike> glad we got that cleared up. night
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09:41:44 <itsy> Oh, has experience gone :-( I didn't get chance to ask...
09:53:00 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to open-source Antiposeball 5
09:54:23 <Sgeo> I don't think I'm making much money off it, and if I am, I shouldn't be
09:54:27 <Sgeo> The code is old and buggy
09:54:45 <elliott> how do you not know whether you are making money off it or not
09:55:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-200 (->->[-])*-1>[--[-]]
09:55:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-200: 0.0
09:55:13 <Sgeo> The question is the meaning of 'much'
09:55:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-200 (->[-])*-1>[--[-]]
09:55:19 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-200: 14.0
09:55:23 <Sgeo> $300 or so over 6 years does not really seem like much
09:55:24 <itsy> I need some kind of printer server.
09:55:30 <Lymia> Why can't my evolver achieve a 2 opcode deletion
09:56:04 <Lymia> It's probs encoded weirdly
09:56:17 <Sgeo> I'm currently getting maybe a few cents a month
09:56:38 <Sgeo> Also, if I never sold it in the first place, if I just gave it away, Second Life might be a happier place
09:56:44 <Sgeo> So I kind of feel guilty about that
09:58:12 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti
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10:06:33 <Lymia> The disabling of the gene function seems to improve the evolver slightly.
10:06:37 * Lymia is going to have to run a full experiment...
10:11:41 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
10:13:14 <Sgeo> I was going to say I was unaware it was updated, but it wasn't actually updated
10:16:56 <Lymia> !bfjoust the-evolver-likes-this (+++--)*-1
10:17:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_the-evolver-likes-this: 7.0
10:18:33 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to NotRichBurlew.
10:24:59 <Fiora> Lymia: hmm. maybe it would be useful to write a test for the evolver's code to make sure it "agrees" with what the hill thinks?
10:25:20 <Fiora> e.g. give the scorer various known-okay programs and see if it agrees with the hill on how good they are relative to each other
10:25:25 <Fiora> I guess sort of a sanity test
10:25:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust nyannyan (++-.+)*-1
10:25:43 <Fiora> ... I wonder if genetically evolving based on lots of existing hill programs as seeds would work
10:25:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_nyannyan: 16.1
10:25:57 <Lymia> Fiora, I know the algorithm is different
10:26:05 <Lymia> The differences are small enough that I don't /expect/ a huge problem.
10:27:15 -!- NotRichBurlew has changed nick to Sgeo.
10:28:32 <Lymia> With the scaling based on 'value'
10:28:32 <olsner> if you have a hill with 40 crappy evolved programs that are vulnerable to the same strategy, that'll favor specific programs from the existing hill
10:28:35 <Lymia> I might have problems here
10:29:00 <Lymia> olsner, I'm comparing using the best 100 programs from egobot.
10:29:06 <Lymia> With no inner-hill evaluations.
10:29:13 <Lymia> I set too high a population size for that to be practical.
10:29:19 <Lymia> (best 100 programs, historically)
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10:31:37 <Lymia> olsner, I have a speciation algorithm that should prevent fluctuations in a self-against-self hill too.
10:32:18 <Fiora> I was thinking maybe separate evolution groups, so you have like multiple groups that face against each other but don't interbreed?
10:32:26 <Fiora> if that makes any sense
10:33:43 <Sgeo> is there such thing as nair for faces? because i hate shaving
10:34:26 <Taneb> Sgeo: I think there is, but it's mostly advertised for menopausal women
10:34:33 <olsner> just stop shaving and grow a beard?
10:35:34 <Fiora> ... okay yeah, species <.<
10:36:06 <Fiora> Sgeo: I think I remember facial skin is too sensitive for that stuff
10:36:20 <Fiora> and guy-facial-hair probably needs really strong chemicals to burn through
10:36:55 <Fiora> there's laser, but I'm not sure how well that works for guys, since testosterone might make the hair regrow eventually (?)
10:40:06 <Taneb> fizzie: there is a substantial lack of fungot
10:41:33 <itsy> Just grow a beard...++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++666666++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
10:41:55 <Sgeo> I hate the ritual mutilation of shaving
10:42:19 <Sgeo> Not only do I have at least one bleeding cut right now, but I'm still stubbly
10:42:39 <Taneb> Sgeo: I am in a similar boat
10:42:39 <olsner> it's funny how "growing a beard" sounds like you're actively doing something, but it's just the absence of shaving
10:42:42 <elliott> don't you think "mutilation" is a tad overdramatic
10:43:01 <Taneb> olsner: do you not UNDERSTAND the EFFORT that goes into GROWING A BEARD!?
10:43:33 <Taneb> olsner: for a while there's the telling people that it looks crap because you're trying to grow it
10:44:19 <Deewiant> Or do people ask you why your beard looks crap?
10:44:36 <Taneb> They constantly /ask/
10:44:50 <elliott> pretty sure beards don't exist & everyone who has one is actually just cutting off their hair and supergluing it to their chin
10:44:59 <elliott> I have not seen any evidence to the contrary
10:45:10 <elliott> Deewiant: is this finnish socialisation
10:45:40 <Deewiant> In Finland you don't need to do that, people do that automatically
10:45:51 <Sgeo> I never shaved in high school. People talked about my moustache, which made me feel awkward because my self-image is clean-shaven
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10:46:49 <elliott> maybe i should upgrade the wiki
10:46:57 <elliott> that would probably be a good thing to do
10:47:00 <olsner> Sgeo: change your self image to match reality
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10:49:49 <elliott> oh I forgot mediawiki extensions are kind of awful. :(
10:51:02 <Taneb> elliott: rite ur own wiki softwarez
10:51:12 <elliott> Taneb: how about you do it for me
10:52:32 <Taneb> elliott: I need to learn latin and find a shirt with the flag of Finland on it
10:53:17 <olsner> how would that help your write a wiki softwarez?
10:53:54 <Deewiant> How would that help with anything
10:54:07 <Taneb> olsner: latin is the best programming language for writing a wiki softwarez (true fact tm)
10:54:16 <Taneb> But they only let people who look Finnish use it
10:54:21 <elliott> Deewiant: how is mushbefungething
10:54:40 <Deewiant> elliott: Haven't touched it in months
10:55:18 <Deewiant> Sure, you can even have it in any currency of your choice
10:55:36 <Taneb> Just give me your bank account details and I'll sort it out for you
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10:56:17 <Deewiant> Write me a library for representing arbitrary polytopes with axis-aligned sides
10:56:19 <fizzie> fungot: Where were you?
10:56:19 <fungot> fizzie: i tried fnord few days ago
10:56:32 <fizzie> Oh, well, that explains it, I suppose.
10:56:58 <Taneb> I've heard fnord's nasty
10:57:08 <Deewiant> As a bonus, improve upon the best known approximation for minimal tessellation of it in 3D
10:57:19 <Taneb> Can knock you out for weeks, if you're not careful
10:57:36 <Deewiant> I think the 2D algorithm is optimal... as a bonus prove that it is or improve on it
11:00:54 <Taneb> Deewiant: do you have a shirt with the Finnish flag on it
11:01:43 <fungot> Taneb: would writing code that depends on another scheme48 library y would create a slip connection. :p ( around 5 hours for the ibook.)
11:01:56 <Taneb> thx for dodging the question
11:02:15 <Deewiant> To get started I just need the representation, plus a way of subtracting (hyper)rectangles from it
11:03:04 <Deewiant> But I'm not sure of the best way to go about that so I kind of left the whole thing to chill for a while
11:03:38 <Sgeo> The website of the bus I use is broken :*(
11:04:52 <Deewiant> (I /think/ I'd need to use a proper edge data structure which kind of means that I'd have to take the existing structure I use and see about generalizing the code sufficiently that I can use it for this case as well)
11:08:00 * Sgeo decides to walk away from comp instead of blowing a gasket at unreadable train schedules
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11:37:25 <Sgeo> Can I still type with a band-aid on my thumb? The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
11:37:38 <Sgeo> Huh. I didn't try to use the thumb even once.
11:39:03 <Jafet> The quick brown fox hunts, but the lazy hen pecks.
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12:02:22 <elliott> http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2013/Mar/166 Port scanning /0 using insecure embedded devices
12:02:28 <elliott> kmc: ^ might find that interesting if you haven't seen?
12:07:46 <fizzie> 2013-03-19 23:22:44 <Bike> http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/paper.html so um <-- you seem to have gotten SCOOPED like an ICE CREAM there.
12:12:25 <elliott> fizzie: consider this: fuck you and fuck bicycles. :(
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12:43:09 <Jafet> elliott wants some sexy shimanos
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13:00:45 <Lymia> !bfjoust meow +.+(++-.+)*-1
13:00:50 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_meow: 13.8
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13:08:40 <Lymia> !bfjoust evo-14898-14988 (++++--+)*-1--
13:08:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evo-14898-14988: 14.9
13:08:58 <Lymia> !bfjoust evo-14897-15213 (+++--++)*-1
13:09:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evo-14897-15213: 15.6
13:11:42 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:14:53 * Lymia has an idea for being stupid now
13:18:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[-[([(+)*8[+]]>)*-1]++[([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:18:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 17.3
13:19:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[>([(+)*8[+]]>)*-1]++[>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]]>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:19:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 12.1
13:37:26 <ais523> Lymia: is that designed to beat something in particular?
13:37:26 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:37:29 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 49m 35s ago: 2013/03/25 00:46:24 [error] 23940#0: *5967814 FastCGI sent in stderr: "PHP message: PHP Fatal error: Call to a member function getVar() on a non-object in /srv/esolangs.
13:37:29 <lambdabot> org/www/mediawiki/extensions/AbuseFilter/special/SpecialAbuseLog.php on line 281" while reading response header from upstream, client: 95.146.57.2, server: esolangs.org, request: "GET /wiki/Special:
13:37:29 <lambdabot> AbuseLog/33 HTTP/1.1", upstream: "fastcgi://unix:/var/run/php5-fpm.sock:
13:37:29 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 49m 20s ago: this is the error I get when trying to view the broken abuse log page
13:37:29 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 48m 58s ago: that line is just "if ( $vars->getVar( 'action' )->toString() == 'edit' ) {" -- I think I'll just try updating the wiki
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13:47:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*-1]+>([-])*-1]])*-1
13:47:29 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 25.6
13:48:04 <ais523> ooh, it's getting better
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13:48:38 <Lymia> !bfjoust hana-no-sei <
13:48:41 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_hana-no-sei: 0.0
13:48:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_tiny: 0.0
13:49:02 <Lymia> ais523, it's just flow with special casing for omnipotence's size one decoy. :p
13:49:16 <Lymia> Flow assumes that there's at least one space between the first decoy and the opponent's flag
13:49:32 <boily> !bfjoust chicken (>)*9(----++++[-]>)*30[-]
13:49:35 <EgoBot> Score for boily_chicken: 4.7
13:49:46 <boily> hm. I think I fared better last time.
13:49:57 <boily> !bfjoust chicken (>)*9(----+++++[-]>)*30[-]
13:50:00 <EgoBot> Score for boily_chicken: 3.5
13:50:08 <boily> ais523: don't ask. :p
13:50:26 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*3([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*3([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:50:28 <ais523> Lymia: haha, that reminds me of how omnipotence beats space_hotel
13:50:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.1
13:50:41 <ais523> it recognises its size 5 decoy and switches to a strategy designed specifically to beat it
13:51:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:51:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.1
13:52:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:52:04 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
13:52:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:52:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 26.7
13:52:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:52:15 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
13:52:41 <Lymia> I should write a macro language for this
13:52:46 <Lymia> To make things easier to write >_<
13:53:28 <boily> Lymia: careful, you're treading into autoconfy territory. next step, you'll be designing a macro language for your macros for your macros.
13:53:55 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8([-])*-1]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8([-])*-1]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8([+])*-1]>)*-1]])*-1
13:53:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 8.2
13:55:12 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([((+)*8[-])*2[+.]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([((+)*8[-])*2[+.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([((-)*8[+])*2[-.]]>)*-1]])*-1
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13:55:15 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 18.3
13:55:21 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
13:55:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
13:55:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:55:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.7
13:56:05 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([((+)*8[-])*2[+]]>)*-1])*-1
13:56:09 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 19.9
13:56:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-][+]]>)*-1])*-1
13:56:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.3
13:56:44 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]][+]>)*-1])*-1
13:56:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.9
13:56:57 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]][(-)*8[+]]>)*-1])*-1
13:57:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.0
13:57:07 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(-)*8[+]][(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:57:10 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.7
13:57:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:57:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.7
13:57:24 <Lymia> No wonder why the evolver has trouble.
13:57:31 <Lymia> Things that seem like they won't affect the score much
13:57:34 <Lymia> Cause a 20 point drop
13:59:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->++>->.(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:14 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.2
13:59:18 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>->>->.+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 30.0
13:59:27 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:30 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.2
13:59:36 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >>--->>>++>>(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 29.8
13:59:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >++++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
13:59:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.1
14:00:02 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:05 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.6
14:00:09 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.2
14:00:14 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:17 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.6
14:00:22 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>->+>(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:25 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.4
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14:00:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:00:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.6
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14:00:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:00:45 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 27.2
14:00:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >+++>--->>>+>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:00:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.3
14:01:03 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:06 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 26.8
14:01:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*7[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:13 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.4
14:01:15 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:18 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.9
14:01:23 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*9[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:26 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.6
14:01:28 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*5[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:31 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 31.5
14:01:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*4[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 28.8
14:01:37 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->>>+>->(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:01:40 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 32.9
14:01:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >+++>--->>>+>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:01:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.4
14:01:59 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >+++>--->>>+>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:02:02 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.5
14:02:09 <Lymia> The nice thing about the programs being related is
14:02:12 <Lymia> Changes in one can be ported >:p
14:03:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:03:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.2
14:04:41 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*7[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*7[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:04:44 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.2
14:04:52 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*8[-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*8[+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:04:55 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 28.9
14:05:08 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[--]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[++]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:11 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.3
14:05:20 <Lymia> Heh. My assumption was right :p
14:05:24 <Lymia> Stuff that'd trigger that case tend to try and lock
14:05:33 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:36 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.8
14:05:44 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.0
14:05:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.-]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.+]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:05:50 <fizzie> Lymia: You might consider doing some of part of that iteration in a /query, and just showing the highlights; I mean, it is kind of noisy.
14:05:53 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 26.2
14:06:04 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller >>->>->++>->(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:06:07 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 29.8
14:08:22 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130325-colorslide.png this must be the most colorful slide I've done, at least discounting the ones with actual pictures on them. (I was thinking I'd illustrate which part goes where so that nobody has to stop and ask.)
14:10:34 <elliott> fizzie: I guess you have to do that kind of thing when your audience is speech recognition researchers
14:13:51 <fizzie> They're not the audience for that slide.
14:14:04 <fizzie> Well, maybe there could be some in the audience, I don't know.
14:14:29 <fizzie> But the class in general doesn't have anything specifically to do with speech recognition; it's T-61.5140 Machine Learning: Advanced Probabilistic Methods.
14:14:56 <fizzie> (I guess it's kind of in the same field, but more general, if you want to be picky about it.)
14:18:04 <fizzie> It has the \beta_i^k's in magenta because they're part of both the red and blue groups. (This is what passes for wit around here.)
14:19:44 <elliott> starting to understand the poverty of finnish minds
14:19:53 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>>--->>->+>(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:19:56 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 33.5
14:20:07 <elliott> feel like this may provide clues as to why they think speech recognition research is worthwhile
14:21:05 <fizzie> We had a Google guy here recently who seemed to think that, too.
14:21:16 <fizzie> Then again, Google, right?
14:24:58 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller (>)*7(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:25:01 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 30.5
14:25:02 <elliott> one day i'm going to meet fizzie irl and i will have ALL my best speech recognition zingers prepared
14:25:14 <elliott> he may never recover from the burns
14:26:32 <Lymia> Despite the similarity, flow needs its decoys and godkiller doesn't
14:26:49 <Lymia> !bfjoust godkiller <
14:26:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_godkiller: 0.0
14:26:54 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*7(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:26:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 30.5
14:32:33 <ais523> Lymia: using decoys slows down both programs
14:32:38 <ais523> so it's a case of who benefits from the delay more
14:34:32 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:34:35 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.9
14:34:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*7(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:34:49 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 30.9
14:35:05 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:35:08 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.9
14:36:07 <Lymia> Somehow the smaller initial jump earns a win against ais523_waterfall3
14:36:35 <ais523> Lymia: oh, waterfall3 is very sensitive to timing details
14:36:43 <ais523> even more so than omnipotence is
14:36:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(.)*3(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:36:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.0
14:36:57 <ais523> so it's possible that you just happen to be hitting a combination of timings it's bad at
14:37:00 <Lymia> !bfjoust aurora (>)*4(>[[-[++[->>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1]->([+])*2([(+)*6[-.]]>)*-1]+>([-])*2([(-)*6[+.]]>)*-1]])*-1
14:37:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_aurora: 33.9
14:37:09 <Lymia> It keeps the waterfall win even with the extra delays
14:37:20 <ais523> well, waterfall attempts to synchronize
14:37:27 <ais523> it's entirely about synchronization, really
14:39:34 <Lymia> And the only thing sacrified is win->tie for Deewiant_tolstoi.bfjoust
14:41:16 <Lymia> !bfjoust flow >+++>--->(>[>>([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1])*-1
14:41:21 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_flow: 37.0
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15:34:13 <Lymia> fizzie, something is seriously wrong with your match time plot
15:34:20 <Lymia> The two "<"s on the hill right now have red cells
15:34:23 <Lymia> Which is impossible
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15:44:43 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-358_evo-27660-27915 -..->--[-..->--[-..->--[-..->--[-..->--[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:44:46 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-358_evo-27660-27915: 10.1
15:48:32 <fizzie> Lymia: There are no "<"s in my plot.
15:48:47 <fizzie> The smallest program in it has 16 characters.
15:49:02 <Lymia> fizzie, I reran it on the current hill
15:49:04 <Lymia> Which has <s in it
15:49:31 <fizzie> Well, which plot is this about?
15:49:45 <Lymia> It's the really chaotic one
15:49:51 <Lymia> That's supposed to be how many cycles it takes
15:50:19 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-364_evo-27660-28619 --.->-[--.->-[--.->-[--.->-[--.->-[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:50:22 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-364_evo-27660-28619: 10.1
15:50:34 <Lymia> wee counting points vs counting csore
15:50:37 <fizzie> And you're using the fixed version of cranklance?
15:51:03 <Lymia> Fixed version of cranklance?
15:51:18 <fizzie> Something that's later than http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/commit/e50392f
15:52:07 <fizzie> 2013-03-24 19:47:25 <fizzie> Lymia: You'll want to update your cranklance to fix what was discussed above, if you're doing cranking.
15:52:28 <Lymia> I'll retry it with that in a bit
15:52:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-365_evo-28453-28710 >-.->.-[>-.->.-[>-.->.-[>-.->.-[>-.->.-[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:52:38 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-365_evo-28453-28710: 0.0
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15:53:51 <Lymia> I'm going to have to teach my evolver about
15:53:55 <Lymia> Convincing and not-convincing wins
15:54:21 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-368_evo-27660-28982 >.-->-[>.-->-[>.-->-[>.-->-[>.-->-[+]+]+]+]+]+
15:54:24 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-368_evo-27660-28982: 0.0
15:54:42 <Lymia> wins*wins*sign(wins) would be a decent indicator?
15:56:30 <fizzie> I don't know what "wins" is, and when it would be negative.
15:57:05 <Lymia> [Average fitness: -154911.90625, Max fitness: -52880.0]
15:57:07 <Lymia> this is distressing
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16:05:42 <Taneb> I also have a stiff neck
16:06:26 <Taneb> I have a stupid immune system and I slept on someone's living room floor right next to a Metro line night before last
16:06:29 <fizzie> Do you people know each other? (It certainly had the appearance of that.)
16:11:47 <kmc> what kind of metro
16:12:41 <Taneb> kmc, Tyne and Wear Metro
16:14:35 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-375_evo-28745-29431 >--->-[>--->-[>--->-[>--->-[>--->-[+]+]+]+]+]+
16:14:39 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-375_evo-28745-29431: 0.0
16:14:43 <Taneb> fizzie, I do not know Shambhala, as far as I am aware
16:17:22 <ais523> Taneb: probably best to check if he/she's from Hexham
16:17:29 <HackEgo> Shambhala: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:17:36 <Taneb> ais523, I do know people from outside of Hexham
16:17:50 <ais523> but three hexhamites being in the channel would be even more of a coincidence than two
16:17:58 <Taneb> Shambhala, are you from Hexham?
16:18:31 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed (>--->-[{+}]+)%5
16:18:34 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed: 0.0
16:18:38 <Lymia> !bfjoust generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed (--->-[{+}]+)%10
16:18:42 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_generation-375_evo-28745-29431_golfed: 12.0
16:18:50 <Lymia> What is the evolver thinking
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16:20:55 <ais523> Lymia: yeah, that just stops after a while
16:21:01 <ais523> or if it finds any decoy of size 1
16:21:09 <ais523> it's like a halfhearted rush that gives up after a bit
16:21:34 <Lymia> ais523, it thinks this is /better/ than previous generations.
16:21:38 <Lymia> Which makes me go WTF
16:21:45 <ais523> mistake somewhere, presumably
16:21:48 <Lymia> I'm going to guess that it rushes faster.
16:21:50 <ais523> there was a famous incident in the very early days of BF Joust
16:21:53 <Lymia> Causing it to win against more enemies.
16:21:56 <ais523> where the hill marked wins as losses, and losses as wins
16:21:59 <ais523> and nobody noticed for a while
16:22:30 <Lymia> ais523, as far as I can tell, this would rush faster in some cases.
16:22:37 <Lymia> Which could be enough for it to win half the time against more enemies.
16:22:50 <Lymia> Which would make a fitness increase overall.
16:22:52 <ais523> !bfjoust pure_rush (>)*8(>+[-])*21
16:22:55 <Lymia> But a decease by EgoBot's terms
16:22:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pure_rush: 8.4
16:23:08 <ais523> it does worse than your golfed evolver
16:23:16 <ais523> oh, I see, your evolver trails
16:23:30 <ais523> !bfjoust pure_rush_with_Trail (+++>)*8(>+[-])*21
16:23:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pure_rush_with_Trail: 15.0
16:23:42 <ais523> yeah, that's similar to a fixed version of what your program is doing
16:23:49 <ais523> !bfjoust pure_rush_with_Trail <
16:23:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pure_rush_with_Trail: 0.0
16:25:12 <Lymia> ais523, what's EgoBot's algorithm for stuff like that anyways?
16:25:45 <Lymia> It's clearly counting neutral (i.e. no overall losses or wins against programs) as worse than some losses and some wins.
16:26:04 <Lymia> It filters out negative points
16:26:51 <ais523> yeah, it only counts wins
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16:32:56 <Lymia> !bfjoust best ((++-+++-)*-1++-+++-)*-1++-+++-
16:33:00 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_best: 17.4
16:33:03 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_best: 0.0
16:34:55 <ais523> Lymia: you put some code after a *-1?
16:35:40 <ais523> it might work better (or might not!) to cut out dead code
16:36:22 <Lymia> (the evolver just declared an entire specis no good.)
16:36:36 <Lymia> Speciation is actually working quite nicely.
16:36:55 <Lymia> I checked each species-- rushes and vibrators are defiantly getting separated.
16:39:37 <ais523> I wonder if it'll ever evolve a lock-based program
16:39:43 <Lymia> And then the rushes died out.
16:39:46 <Lymia> ais523, lock-based being?
16:39:47 <ais523> my guess is no, there are no obvious intermediate steps
16:39:50 <Lymia> omnipotence and such?
16:40:08 <ais523> Lymia: a program that tries to trap the opponent in an infinite loop while slowly grinding away
16:40:14 <ais523> omnipotence uses it as a backup strategy
16:40:21 <Lymia> It'd need to account for polarities.
16:40:32 <Lymia> Then, the position of the head when it does something...
16:40:53 <Lymia> ais523, actually. a pesudo-lock might be evolvable.
16:41:27 <ais523> the problem is not writing the lock itself, (+.)*-1 can work against many programs
16:41:38 <ais523> it's writing a way to win without breaking the lock
16:41:45 <Lymia> (>)*9[[(+.)*100(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>]
16:41:50 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>)*9[[(+.)*100(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>]
16:41:54 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 7.3
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16:41:58 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 0.0
16:42:42 <ais523> this is why defence programs are so long
16:42:44 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>)*9[[(+.)*50(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>]
16:42:47 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 7.2
16:42:47 <ais523> there's no known short way to write a full-tape clear
16:42:52 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 0.0
16:43:02 <ais523> Lymia: that runs off the end of the program if there's nothing on cell 9
16:43:09 <ais523> and there probably is nothing on cell 9
16:43:25 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>)*9([(+.)*50(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>)*-1
16:43:28 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 10.3
16:43:38 <Lymia> !bfjoust test (>+)*9([(+.)*50(<)*9(+)*100(>)*9]>)*-1
16:43:41 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 2.5
16:43:48 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_test: 0.0
16:43:54 <Lymia> Right. We have a stupid hill where no decoys sometimes beats decoys
16:44:12 <ais523> Lymia: that's to be expected, really
16:44:21 <ais523> omnipotence can function just fine without the decoy
16:44:28 <ais523> it's actually there for constant-tweaking purposes
16:45:01 <ais523> but in general, any pattern is exploitable
16:45:01 <Lymia> ais523, my current direction of development is trying to make an encoding that can encode repetitive stuff like that, without spelling out every loop.
16:45:16 <ais523> programs like the anticipation series rely on opponents using the same clear loop on every cell, for instance
16:45:46 <ais523> and so are really easily defeated by an opponent designed to beat them
16:45:54 <ais523> or that just acts unusually
16:46:07 <ais523> e.g. omnipotence doesn't use a traditional clear loop, and against anticipation, anticipation zeroes its own flag as a result
16:46:45 <Taneb> Any program written by me is gonna be pretty nave
16:48:02 <Lymia> ais523, I'm thinking that
16:48:19 <Lymia> The only viable option is an evolver that can somehow evolve on a level of patterns, to where it can develop complex stuff like that
16:48:28 <Lymia> I havn't yet found a representation that works well.
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16:50:08 <Lymia> !bfjoust evolved-vibration (-.+++)*-1
16:50:12 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_evolved-vibration: 18.6
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17:02:23 <Lymia> ais523, rerunning with no external hill.
17:02:28 <Lymia> This time, with EgoBot-like score rules
17:02:32 <Lymia> Let's see how it works out~ :p
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17:17:33 <Lymia> ais523, as of generation 15
17:17:52 <Lymia> "max fitness" is a measure of approximately what percentage of the population immediately commits suicide.
17:20:00 <ais523> wouldn't species that immediately committed suicide die out pretty quickly, though?
17:20:41 <Lymia> It's only certain individuals who gain an < opcode
17:21:04 <Lymia> The occational 0.0 is those
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17:30:01 <Lymia> ais523, a lot of the instant suicides are because of code I added to not give empty organisms a chance. (i.e, they're replaced with <)
17:31:00 <Lymia> Because of the way the system works, an empty organism is a pretty good sign that none of its genes can be activated-- which is hard to undo
17:31:18 * Lymia still needs to write crossover
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18:01:14 <dbelange> Sry if this is a stupid question: It's said that there are infinitely many prime numbers and the higher you count the fewer primes you get. Shouldn't that mean the prime counting sequence converges to 0 and therefore primes are finite?
18:01:46 <dbelange> If Pi contains an infinite number of numbers, is it possible that within this infinity, there is an infinite series of 1's?
18:02:02 <ion> Pi? or pi?
18:02:28 <dbelange> How can zero be counted as a positive number? What is a definition of a positive number (that does not use zero in its definition)?
18:02:29 <Taneb> dbelange, it's happily asymptote to 0
18:02:47 <Taneb> dbelange, it can't, and I can't think of one
18:03:01 <kmc> dbelange: there are infinitely many powers of two, and the higher you count the further apart they are
18:03:03 <dbelange> Can any of you think of a real world culture in which the concept of negative or irrational numbers was established before the concept of 0? Furthermore, what was the context of the irrational or negative concept?
18:03:16 <kmc> yet there are clearly an infinite number of powers of two
18:04:03 <kmc> if there were an infinite run of 1's in pi, then it would have a repeating decimal expansion and thus be rational
18:04:28 <kmc> but pi is irrational and you can find many proofs of this online
18:04:47 <kmc> it is hypothesized that the expansion of pi contains every *finite* digit sequence
18:04:51 <kmc> but this is not proven
18:05:16 <Bike> Ancient Greece was a culture that had irrationals but not zero `-`
18:06:06 <tromp> pi is conjectured to be normal: in any base b, any sequence of k digits occurs with frequency b^-k
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18:07:42 <tromp> there's basically only one number that's been proven normal; even though almost all real numbers are normal
18:08:27 <kmc> kind of like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khinchin%27s_constant
18:08:36 <kmc> which is a really weird mathematical fact
18:09:12 <kmc> for almost all real numbers, the geometric mean of the continued fraction coefficients is 2.6854520010...
18:09:33 <kmc> also "It is not known if Khinchin's constant is a rational, algebraic irrational or transcendental number"
18:10:30 <Bike> the feigenbaum constants are about as weird for me.
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18:12:16 <kmc> dbelange: "What is a definition of a positive number (that does not use zero in its definition)" <-- this is a fairly meaningless question I think
18:12:27 <kmc> you can say "a positive number is either one, or the successor of a positive number"
18:13:13 <kmc> which defines the terms "positive number", "one", and "successor", ignoring whatever external definition they had
18:13:19 <kmc> that's a perfectly fine mathematical formalism
18:13:33 <kmc> it's isomorphic to the natural numbers except that you've renamed "zero" to "one"
18:14:19 <kmc> however if you want to define addition and multiplication and whatever on these "positive numbers" then you don't get very far
18:14:35 <kmc> because there's no additive identity so it doesn't have group or even monoid structure
18:14:59 <kmc> or else you take "one" to be the additive identity and then it really is zero just with a funny name
18:15:17 <boily> number is only three degrees to philosophy: number -> mathematical object -> abstract object (redirect to: abstract and concrete) -> philosophy.
18:15:36 <kmc> dbelange: is this homework or something
18:15:40 <zzo38> O, you play Wikipedia.
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18:16:37 -!- kmc has set topic: The 2^4+1th vigintile welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | Safe when used as directed. | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for Joe Chip. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:16:56 <Bike> do not taunt happy fun #esoteric
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18:30:00 <zzo38> I can view what individual player is most rebound, most scoring, most stealing, most block, most three points, etc, but isn't teamwork more important?
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18:40:26 <zzo38> My *team* is the most stealing, but not my player, for example.
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18:43:56 <Taneb> Should I trust my intuition or my quick calculation
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18:47:30 <zzo38> Whatever works for the circumstances.
18:47:55 <boily> I thought intuition and a quick calculation were the same thing?
18:49:07 <Taneb> Intuition is "what it should be"
18:49:33 <Taneb> Quick calculation is "what's the inverse cos of 0.8"
18:53:42 <zzo38> The AI in Pokemon Card GB2 draws too many cards!!
18:57:03 <Taneb> zzo38, so many it breaks the rules?
18:57:16 <Taneb> Or just more than would form the optimum strategy
18:58:42 <ais523> zzo38: the AI in the original Pokémon Card for GB gets a luck advantage, as well
18:58:51 <ais523> the most powerful opponents never have a bad starting hand
18:59:16 <zzo38> Taneb: No, I mean more than the strategy. They lose due to having too many cards.
18:59:36 <Taneb> zzo38, that's roughly what I meant
18:59:47 <Taneb> (I don't know the Pokemon Card game at all)
19:00:06 <Taneb> (other than the fact that Team Rocket's Meowth doesn't evolve into Persian)
19:01:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: The 2^4+1st vigintile welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | Safe when used as directed. | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for Joe Chip. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:01:28 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, if you have the card "Team Rocket's Meowth" then you can only evolve into "Team Rocket's Persian".
19:01:45 <Taneb> zzo38, that is literally all I remember from the TCG
19:02:02 <zzo38> Evolving "Team Rocket's Meowth" into "Persian" is not allowed, though.
19:02:10 <zzo38> ais523: I didn't know that. Now I know.
19:02:19 <zzo38> Still, the AI is not very good.
19:02:41 <ais523> team rocket's meowth evolving would completely ruin the anime
19:03:05 <Taneb> It'd be like Ash's Pikachu evolving
19:03:21 <zzo38> ais523: I know, but this is the card game. The card "Team Rocket's Persian" may not exist, but it would be the card it could be evolved into if it did exist.
19:03:33 <zzo38> In Pokemon Card GB2 the AI is a bit better, but still not very good, such as they draw too many cards.
19:03:50 <zzo38> And are not very good at defense.
19:04:09 <boily> Team Rocket should evolve too, if there is a Persian to their Meowth.
19:04:21 <Taneb> Thinking about it, in the anime, there was a Team Rocket's Persian
19:04:26 <Taneb> It was owned by Giovanni
19:04:35 <Taneb> "Jessie evolved into Giovanni"
19:04:52 <Taneb> "James evolved into pile of money that only exists in Meowth's imagination!"
19:05:10 <ais523> Taneb: yeah, Giovanni had a Persian
19:05:23 <ais523> but it's clearly a different Pokémon from the Meowth that's featured in basically every episode
19:05:42 <Taneb> Hey, time travel does exist in the anime canon
19:06:15 <zzo38> O, so that is why it is inconsistent.
19:06:27 <Taneb> zzo38, I was referring to the fourth movie
19:08:05 <zzo38> How I usually play the card game though is when cards are picked at random to construct the deck, allow evolving into any card with the same energy type as long as all of the cards in the stack are capable of evolving that high. Evolving into the proper card is also OK, even if the type is wrong.
19:11:19 <zzo38> We put ten cards face-up on the floor, and then take turns selecting one. This is repeated, with the players alternating the first pick, until we have 45 cards each. If any basic energy cards come up while doing this, they are put aside and replacements are put in. When we each have 45 cards, we construct a deck using a subset of those cards and basic energy cards to make 60 cards in total.
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19:12:28 <ais523> Taneb: I'm not entirely sure if the movies are canon
19:12:51 <ais523> actually, I think the usual rule is that Celebi is capable of time travel, and Dialga is effectively omnipotent when it comes to time
19:12:56 <ais523> and nothing else can time travel naturally
19:13:11 <Taneb> Okay, if you treat the movies as canon, it's not completely inconceivable that Meowth is Persian
19:13:22 <Taneb> And Dialga could take Meowth back
19:13:36 <ais523> time travel's never been seen to be capable of duplicating people in Pokémon, as far as I know
19:13:48 <ais523> although, yeah, Dialga can do anything like that because that's its shtick
19:14:02 <Taneb> (cf. Explorers of Time and Darkness with Grovyle)
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19:15:12 <Taneb> But I don't think I care about this at all
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19:20:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, new Ubuntu release discussion
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19:22:28 <Taneb> http://xkcd.com/178/
19:23:27 <ais523> early xkcd is worse than recent xkcd on average
19:25:06 <Taneb> http://xkcd.com/3/ is the funniest
19:25:36 <ais523> I think xkcd's job is mostly being insightful, rather than funny
19:25:46 <ais523> it should entertain in the "I didn't know that" or "I didn't think of that" sense
19:25:53 <ais523> rather than the "that's a good joke" sense
19:26:19 <ais523> or it's not xkcd, but a different website altogether
19:28:07 <kmc> there are some painfully bad old strips yeah
19:28:26 <kmc> but the best strips from the early days are something it very very rarely hits now
19:28:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> q what is the obvious generalizsation of (.)?
19:28:43 <oerjan> :t ((Control.Category..),fmap)
19:28:44 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Control.Category.Category cat) => (cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c, (a1 -> b1) -> f a1 -> f b1)
19:28:55 <Taneb> ais523, it'd be like IWC without Lego or roleplaying or science
19:29:03 <Taneb> Or Homestuck without the I don't want to know
19:29:19 <oerjan> :t [(Control.Category..),fmap]
19:29:40 <kmc> ais523: I think you're right that it tries to teach and amaze, but it's usually a poor fit for the graphical medium
19:29:58 <kmc> i mean every month or two there's a cool visualization
19:30:16 <kmc> but mostly, it's like, two stick figures discuss wikipedia using dialogue that in no way resembles how people actually talk
19:30:18 <ais523> this is why what if is better than the main xckd
19:30:21 <kmc> then a pannel with an unfunny punchlinke
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19:30:32 <kmc> then a panel with completely pointless post-punchline dialogue
19:31:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's used in a comic so that makes slightly more appropriate
19:31:26 <Taneb> At least it isn't Papyrus
19:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> but comic sans looks nothing like actual comic lettering!
19:31:54 <kmc> probably xkcd started going downhill when it became a staple of the subculture it was trying to propagate and comment on
19:32:12 <kmc> either that or randall munroe just ran out of funny things his MIT friends told him about
19:33:21 <tswett> Hm. I think I just came up with an esoteric programming language.
19:33:25 <oerjan> (.) :: cat b c -> f b -> f c
19:34:13 <oerjan> class Dottable cat f where (.) :: cat b c -> f b -> f c
19:34:15 <boily> (how would one translate «combientième» in English?)
19:34:17 <shachaf> oerjan: imo (.) = rmap or (.) = flip lmap
19:34:25 <lambdabot> Profunctor p => (b -> c) -> p a b -> p a c
19:34:27 <lambdabot> Profunctor p => (a -> b) -> p b c -> p a c
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19:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the wp article in star trek into darkness still has two different kinds of page protection on it
19:34:56 <oerjan> shachaf: um my type generalizes at least rmap
19:35:03 <boily> ~duck star trek into darkness
19:35:04 <metasepia> Star Trek Into Darkness is an upcoming American science fiction action film directed by J. J. Abrams, written by Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, and Damon Lindelof, and produced by Abrams, Bryan Burk, Lindelof, Kurtzman, and Orci.
19:35:19 <shachaf> oerjan: fmap also generaliszes rmap
19:35:22 <tswett> boily: looking at monolingual definitions of "combentième", I think that English just doesn't have a word for that.
19:35:38 <shachaf> oerjan: want to wrestle on the floor about it
19:35:49 <boily> tswett: I wanted to ask «c'est ton combientième?», but stumbled midway in English.
19:35:56 <tswett> You could say "whichth", but only if you're trying to confuse your readers.
19:35:59 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i guess it does
19:36:41 <boily> tswett: my translator brain-module is due for an oil change. it gets stuck much too often.
19:37:05 <tswett> Yeah, I think you just can't do that in English. You'd have to say something like "How many have you done before?"
19:37:16 * oerjan throws Phantom_Hoover into an spj lecture
19:38:14 <tswett> Or I guess you could say "How many does this make?" (the answer being "this makes five" if this is my fifth).
19:38:50 <tswett> You know what, I think I'm going to name this language Combientième.
19:39:14 <tswett> Since it's going to be kind of like Forth, and I wanted to make a pun on that name.
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19:42:07 <oerjan> tswett: you need to leave out one of the vowels in the diphtong hth
19:42:47 <oerjan> hm i guess there are two diphthongs, maybe?
19:42:58 <boily> there are no diphtongs in French.
19:43:28 <tswett> Maybe I need to respell it in some other way that leaves the pronunciation the same.
19:43:39 <tswett> How would "combientièm" be pronounced? Would the "m" be silent?
19:43:43 <oerjan> hm maybe leave out the final e, it's essentially silent like the u in fourth
19:43:47 <boily> and in that case, those are only glides: /kɔ̃bjɛ̃tjɛm/
19:44:39 <oerjan> i'm not enough of a linguist to know the difference between a glide and a diphtong.
19:45:16 <boily> tswett: chopping off the silent e wouldn't change the pronounciation.
19:45:17 <oerjan> i mean, there's something written as a vowel and pronounced almost like a consonant, next to something written as a vowel and pronounced as one.
19:45:43 <boily> a diphtong is a smooth transition between to vowels.
19:45:58 <tswett> It wouldn't change the pronunciation from /kɔ̃.bjɛ̃.tjɛm/ to /kɔ̃.bjɛ̃.tjɑ̃/?
19:46:37 <boily> no, because it'd need to be an «n» instead of an «m» to get /ɑ̃/.
19:47:05 <boily> oerjan: French orthography is mainly a cheaty obfuscatory encoding.
19:47:50 <boily> dbelange: ne vois-tu pas dans mes yeux sensuels que je t'adore :p
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19:48:35 <oerjan> boily: well it's not as cheaty as english.
19:48:58 <oerjan> i recall you can mostly do one direction by simple rules
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19:50:31 <boily> oerjan: e.g. "they loved" -> «ils aimaient». you need 5 letters (aient) for a simple /ɛ/.
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19:51:20 <oerjan> <boily> a diphtong is a smooth transition between to vowels. <-- this definition _might_ imply that what i have learned are called diphthongs in norwegian aren't... or perhaps it's that some other combinations that are _not_ written with vowel letters _are_...
19:51:27 <Taneb> "thorough" in English has a one-letter schwa... then a 4-letter schwa
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19:52:07 <metasepia> A diphthong, also known as a gliding vowel, refers to two adjacent vowel sounds occurring within the same syllable.
19:52:07 <oerjan> boily: well -ent is a bit special.
19:52:20 <boily> damn you, duck! way to confuse me.
19:52:25 <olsner> Taneb: you should start spelling it þoro
19:52:44 <Taneb> olsner, that just makes me think of frozen yoghurt
19:52:45 <boily> Taneb: true. good counter-example.
19:53:00 <olsner> þoroly frozen yoghurt?
20:00:43 <boily> I think I found an interesting explanation about glides and diphtongs: http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/1147
20:02:41 <nooodl> the <ough> in "thorough" isn't a schwa, is it
20:03:06 <nooodl> oh apparently it is for some speakers
20:03:28 <olsner> I say it something like "owe"
20:03:43 <Taneb> nooodl, some accents it's like oh, some it's like uh
20:04:16 <nooodl> when i was a kid i pronounced it as "through"
20:04:47 <nooodl> i just read "thoroughly" as "throughly" for the longest time. then i realized, wow, hey, there's an o in there
20:05:06 <Taneb> I pronounce through throoo
20:09:07 <ais523> @tell elliott btw, I came up with an interim method for dealing with the spambots while the abuse filter is broken; if I see that it would have blocked a spambot but didn't due to being broken, I block the spambot by hand before it can post elsewhere
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20:26:58 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
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20:28:28 <boily> ah! as informative as ever :D
20:29:05 <tswett> I opened up GHCi. It evaluates id 3 as 3.
20:30:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a0))
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20:34:19 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
20:34:34 <olsner> is metasepia a species of cuttlefish?
20:35:24 <olsner> oh, it's a whole genus
20:35:38 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
20:35:45 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: data constructor `З'
20:36:15 <tswett> It only works if your nick starts with t.
20:36:24 -!- boily has changed nick to toily.
20:36:50 -!- toily has changed nick to boily.
20:36:51 <oerjan> `run echo 'id 3' | toutf8
20:37:20 <oerjan> this is not the program you are looking for, oerjan
20:38:02 <tswett> So what does toutf8 do?
20:38:15 <oerjan> i don't know, i think i was looking for something else
20:38:25 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import sys \ import chardet \ x = sys.stdin.read() \ enc = chardet.detect(x)['encoding'] \ sys.stdout.write(x.decode(enc).encode('UTF-8'))
20:38:47 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping
20:38:56 <HackEgo> 0000000: 6964 e19a 8033 0a id...3.
20:39:09 <boily> `run echo あ | od -Ax -tx1z -v
20:39:11 <HackEgo> 000000 e3 81 82 0a >....< \ 000004
20:40:17 <oerjan> i am pretty sure fizzie or someone showed me there was a program to write out the codepoints on a line, and i thought it was on HackEgo
20:40:39 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanetemp sf
20:41:21 <fungot> 105 100 225 154 128 51
20:41:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: chr: not found
20:41:48 <HackEgo> 49 32 50 32 51 32 52 32 53
20:42:39 <tswett> `ord 53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 52 57
20:42:41 <HackEgo> 53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 52 57 32 51 50 32 53 49 32 53 48 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 50 32 53 55
20:43:30 <EgoBot> perl for (<>) {lc; s/l(?!e\W)/w/g; s/\Ber|(?<!f)or\b/uh/g; s/ire\b/iyuh/g; s/wr\B/w/g; s/(?<![iou])r\B/w/gx; print}
20:44:10 <olsner> hmm, that gibberish has a certain beauty
20:44:29 <olsner> not quite as much as ursala programs though
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20:47:35 <oerjan> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ('5':) . tail)
20:48:00 <oerjan> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ('5':) . tail)
20:48:06 <olsner> @type unwords . map (show . ord) . ('5':) . tail
20:48:42 <oerjan> that shouldn't matter there
20:48:43 <tswett> No, that shouldn't matter.
20:49:25 <oerjan> maybe unwords is too strict
20:49:26 <tswett> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ("53 51 ") . drop 6)
20:49:27 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> [GHC.Types.Char]'
20:49:32 <tswett> > fix (unwords . map (show . ord) . ("53 51 "++) . drop 6)
20:49:34 <lambdabot> "53 51 32 53 49 32 51 50 32 53 51 32 52 57 32 51 50 32 53 49 32 53 48 32 51...
20:50:20 <oerjan> > unwords . map (show . ord) $ '5':undefined
20:50:59 <oerjan> > unwords $ "53" : undefined
20:51:48 <lambdabot> unwords ws = foldr1 (\w s -> w ++ ' ':s) ws
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20:52:27 <oerjan> > let unwords [] = ""; unwords ws = foldr1 (\w s -> w ++ ' ':s) ws in unwords $ "53" : undefined
20:53:23 <oerjan> ok foldr1 does need to know whether there is a following element
20:54:02 <lambdabot> foldr1 f (x:xs) = f x (foldr1 f xs)
20:55:53 <oerjan> > fix (map ord . show)
20:57:07 <oerjan> so much slightly inferior laziness
20:58:21 <oerjan> > fix (map ord . ('[':) . tail . show)
20:58:23 <lambdabot> [91,57,49,44,53,55,44,52,57,44,52,52,44,53,51,44,53,53,44,52,52,44,53,50,44...
20:58:34 <lambdabot> In a flat choice between smoke and jobs, we're for jobs...But just keep me out of trouble on environmental issues.
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21:02:12 <oerjan> <kmc> also <kmc> performing arbitrary computation by means of conditional vacation autoresponders <-- i hope this is your actual vacation message?
21:03:59 <olsner> kmc: sounds like fun anyway
21:04:33 <olsner> did someone accidentally the vacation autoresponder turing complete?
21:05:06 <kmc> it's hypothetical but I think someone should do it
21:05:14 <olsner> (if you want a verb, feel free to add "make" after accidentally)
21:06:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:07:53 <olsner> (then again, "make" is a simple enough verb that it really should be optional)
21:09:51 <Taneb> How can I explain the difference in meaning between "my" and "of me"?
21:10:52 <kmc> is there one?
21:11:17 <kmc> well I guess I can't help then
21:11:37 <kmc> maybe give some examples where you think "of me" is actually incorrect, as opposed to just awkward in the sense of "nobody would actually say that"
21:11:48 <kmc> ofc. admitting a distinction between these is the thin end of the prescriptivist wedge!
21:12:10 <tswett> I can't immediately think of a case where "my" and "of me" can both be used and have different meanings.
21:12:11 <kmc> IS YOUR WASHROOM BREEDING PRESCRIPTIVISTS?
21:12:18 <Taneb> Especially in latin (mei vs. meus)
21:14:08 <Taneb> "my", masculine accusative
21:14:10 <olsner> there's a difference between "picture of me" and "my picture"
21:14:43 <tswett> "Picture of me" always means "picture depicting me", never "picture owned by me".
21:15:01 <tswett> Whereas "my picture" could mean either.
21:15:19 <tswett> ("Let me give you his picture.")
21:15:20 <kmc> i think "of" is a bit overloaded
21:15:29 <Taneb> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meus#Latin
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21:16:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, meus is an adjective, ego is a pronoun
21:16:52 <olsner> something like me vs myself?
21:17:16 <nooodl> the genitive of ego is mei
21:18:06 <nooodl> "pictura mei" is a picture of me, "pictura mea" is my picture
21:18:07 <oerjan> Taneb: now include "of mine" in this hth
21:18:53 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, but the genitive can also be written 'of me' and 'picture of me' is valid both ways in english
21:20:16 <nooodl> would you really say stuff like
21:20:21 <nooodl> "this is a pen of me."
21:20:29 <nooodl> instead of "this is my pen"
21:21:58 <Phantom_Hoover> note that 'this is taneb's picture' could also refer to a picture depicting taneb
21:22:46 <nooodl> what're we even being confused about
21:22:55 <Taneb> meus vs mei in Latin
21:23:13 <nooodl> meus is "belonging to me", always
21:23:29 <nooodl> if you want to use other genitives than the possessive one, use mei
21:23:48 <olsner> woah, are there several genitives?
21:23:55 <nooodl> "metus mei" "fear of me"
21:24:05 <nooodl> there's a good list near the top of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitive_case
21:24:25 <olsner> that's like 12 genitives o.O
21:24:30 <nooodl> the "composition" one is used really often too ("a bottle of wine") but that isn't really easy to use with "me"
21:24:45 <nooodl> maybe stuff like "you want a piece of me?!" but that doesn't translate well to latin obviously
21:24:49 <oerjan> olsner: just wait until you get to latin's versions of _infinitives_...
21:25:17 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_(Latin)
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21:35:27 <olsner> oh, how stupid... the tv series "24" uses a 12h clock, so half way through the series you're back at 01
21:36:51 <tswett> 24 doesn't take place entirely in a single day, does it?
21:37:02 <tswett> Here, have an esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Combienti%C3%A8m
21:37:03 <kmc> i thought that was the whole gimmick
21:37:19 <kmc> however time keeps going during commercial breaks
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21:37:35 <kmc> presumably that's when jack bauer goes to the bathroom
21:37:41 <olsner> everyone stops doing bad stuff during commercial breaks
21:39:16 <tswett> Ah. *Each season* takes place entirely in a single day.
21:39:23 <kmc> it's one day per season, which is what a british person would call a "series"
21:39:50 <tswett> So what do Brits call series?
21:39:55 <kmc> programmes
21:39:57 <tswett> Do they just call them programmes?
21:40:06 <olsner> they'll have trouble with the reruns though - with more commercials, time in the series will pass slower and slower
21:40:06 <tswett> I like asking questions right after someone tells me the answer.
21:42:58 <olsner> hmm, series was a typo, I meant half-way through the season
21:43:14 <olsner> I just forgot about seasons 2-8 for a while
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21:45:12 <olsner> I've also failed to find good information about what vacation auto responders can normally do... does everyone build their own script for that?
21:49:15 <olsner> a sane one would also be explicitly designed not to cause a loop, but that's what we want
21:50:04 <tswett> Okay, so I guess I'm trying to figure out how computation in Combientièm might work.
21:51:28 <olsner> I do like the word whichth
21:52:09 <tswett> I think storing Booleans is easy enough.
21:52:56 <tswett> Just store either "t" or "f" in a command. Then, to branch, store the true branch in "t" and the false branch in "f".
21:53:20 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quotus
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21:59:12 <tswett> Then for numbers, I guess you could store any number of "o"s in a command, and then use it kinda like a Church numeral.
21:59:54 <oerjan> tswett: hm this might not be that different from how i made that emmental program
22:01:59 <oerjan> hm this _doesn't_ have a stack, does it?
22:04:18 <oerjan> it has that compilation semantics for storing things in commands instead, which somehow corresponds to the emmental command ! which uses the stack. and i think this is the only thing that _needs_ a stack.
22:05:04 <tswett> It's not obvious to me that Combientièm's interpretation–compilation dichotomy is actually useful.
22:06:34 <tswett> It allows you to construct definitions without using L. Maybe there's no real problem with using L, though.
22:12:17 <oerjan> wait, i also use the stack to store the emulated underload stack. this might be harder to translate into combientièm...
22:13:26 <oerjan> it might seem simpler to do a queue with all this appending, maybe.
22:13:36 <oerjan> tswett: perhaps BCT would be easy?
22:13:56 <tswett> I'm thinking a Minsky machine.
22:18:58 <oerjan> tswett: hm should L really be compilation mode? it seems redundant then.
22:19:21 <oerjan> it's needed to append things that don't append themselves, i gues
22:22:12 <oerjan> my underload interpreter in emmental sort of also had interpreter and compilation modes. and a printing mode.
22:22:47 <oerjan> called them running and quoting.
22:23:23 <tswett> Without the I–C dichotomy, the only commands you'd need are N and L.
22:24:12 <tswett> You could set 3 to "ooo" by doing "N3LoLoLo".
22:24:52 <tswett> To set c to a AND b, then you'd do, uh...
22:27:09 <oerjan> no dichotomy would make it closer to emmental
22:27:12 <tswett> Nt[Nt[Nc[t]] Nf[Nc[f]] b] Nf[Nc[f]] a
22:27:22 <tswett> Where [...] means ... with an L inserted before every character.
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22:28:11 <tswett> So the whole program is...
22:28:30 <oerjan> just like the quote function used for constructing emmental programs
22:28:54 <oerjan> (not a part of emmental proper, but you need it not to go crazy writing the programs)
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22:29:27 <tswett> NtLNLtLLLNLLLcLLLLLLLtLNLfLLLNLLLcLLLLLLLfLbNfLNLcLLLfa
22:30:09 <tswett> Yeah, I think I should use the I–C dichotomy.
22:30:26 <tswett> So now, to set c to a AND b, you do this:
22:31:32 <Arc_Koen> cause I've always imagined you as an american on a boat over the mississipi
22:31:53 <tswett> Nt( Nt( Nc( t )LLLD )LD Nf( Nc( f)LLLD )LD b)D Nf( Nc( f )LD )D a
22:31:56 <tswett> Where ( and ) don't mean anything.
22:32:24 <tswett> So the program without the junk is NtNtNctLLLDLDNfNcfLLLDLDbDNfNcfLDDa.
22:32:39 <tswett> So which side of the Mississippi is "over the Mississippi"?
22:33:11 <tswett> Whelp, I'm on this side of the Mississippi.
22:34:16 <olsner> if you make another of yourself, you can be on the other side of the mississippi too
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22:36:21 <oerjan> a boat to the other side
22:36:32 <oerjan> watch out for the guy with a cowl
22:44:35 <oerjan> <Taneb> dbelange, it can't, and I can't think of one
22:45:07 <oerjan> a positive number is a real number not on the form -x^2 for any real number x. hth.
22:45:29 <oerjan> (that was to the second question in the logs.)
22:55:26 <tswett> Alternatively, one that is of the form 1/x^2 for some real number x.
22:56:24 <Arc_Koen> you guys don't count zero as negative
22:59:12 <oerjan> which btw was essentially the _first_ question in the logs.
22:59:56 <oerjan> well the first on that theme. dbelange made a whole bunch of rather basic math questions.
23:00:20 <tswett> There's actually an entire United States of America in Australia.
23:00:21 <oerjan> since when is t... oh right.
23:00:57 <kmc> there are those islands in dubai that form a (crude) map of the world
23:01:05 <oerjan> i hear there's a USA in japan too
23:01:08 <kmc> I wonder what they put at the fixed point
23:02:02 <kmc> if it isn't recursive at all then it's truly a waste of money
23:02:13 <oerjan> i'm imagining a map from centuries in the future, where the continent is named "Stray"
23:02:35 <oerjan> and there's a continent named Murrica
23:02:55 <Arc_Koen> Fiora can you please explain oerjan's joke to me
23:03:11 <kmc> i think future changes in language will be shaped more by written / typed forms than by verbal forms
23:03:21 <kmc> words that are hard to type on QWERTY will slowly disappear
23:03:28 <tswett> I wonder what the largest world map in the world is.
23:03:31 <kmc> meanwhile I'll be speaking English with a Dvorak accent
23:03:36 <tswett> That archipelago, I guess.
23:03:41 <tswett> But it's not a very good world map.
23:03:44 <kmc> i think it's too shitty -- yeah
23:03:57 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: just radical pronunciation becoming the official forms
23:03:58 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/09/26 figure 1
23:04:07 <Jafet> Typing? In the future?
23:04:16 <tswett> Let's see. The circumference of the earth is about 40,000 meters. So...
23:04:17 <olsner> oh, dvorak is a czech name, but august dvorak was just american
23:04:18 <nooodl> imo the earth itself is a good 1:1 spheral world map
23:04:26 <oerjan> see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strine
23:04:33 <Bike> no way, it makes greenland way too big
23:04:39 <tswett> If you made a world map 200 meters wide, then it would contain a depiction of itself about 1 meter wide.
23:04:49 <kmc> that's why it's dvorak and not dvořák
23:05:25 <tswett> So I guess we have to do that.
23:05:36 <kmc> Tři sta třicet tři stříbrných stříkaček stříkalo přes tři sta třicet tři stříbrných střech
23:05:44 <oerjan> when i become world dictator i'll make using dvorak legal only for those who can pronounce it properly in czech. just because.
23:06:26 <Fiora> Arc_Koen: I don't get it either :<
23:06:42 <Fiora> um, the "stray" joke (?)
23:06:45 <kmc> apparently the czech ř is unique
23:07:04 <Arc_Koen> Fiora: just radical pronunciation becoming the official forms
23:07:15 <shachaf> how do you catch a unique odepoint
23:07:30 <Fiora> wait why do you want me to explain it then @_@
23:07:52 <nooodl> that's one hell of a world map!
23:07:57 <oerjan> <tswett> Let's see. The circumference of the earth is about 40,000 meters. So... <-- UM...
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23:08:06 <shachaf> oerjan: i know some people whose last name is dvorak can they use it
23:08:07 <Bike> i dunno 40k sounds realistic
23:08:09 <tswett> All right, the circumference of the earth is about 40,000,000 meters. So if you made a world map about 6000 meters wide, then it would contain a depiction of itself about 1 meter wide.
23:08:24 <Bike> let me just jog over to where you live
23:08:26 <kmc> August Dvorak was from Washington........................
23:08:38 <Arc_Koen> Fiora: because I was lying when I said I was smart! oerjan explained it to me when you didn't
23:08:38 <oerjan> shachaf: ok if they can prove a proper genealogy.
23:09:14 <tswett> Trivia: the length of a marathon is also about 40,000 meters.
23:09:15 <shachaf> does "descended from john c. dvorak" count
23:09:23 <tswett> So the circumference of the earth is about 1,000 marathons.
23:10:01 <Bike> "Dvorak and Dealey, along with Nellie Merrick and Gertrude Ford, wrote the book Typewriting Behavior, published in 1936. The book, currently not in print, is an in-depth report on the psychology and physiology of typing." how boring can you get
23:10:21 <kmc> washington, washington, eight feet tall weighs a fucking ton
23:10:24 <Arc_Koen> tswett: let's organize a giant relay marathon thing
23:10:44 <oerjan> shachaf: only if the name has been used in an unbroken line
23:10:45 <tswett> What is the dryest circumference of the earth?
23:11:00 <kmc> Bike: kickstarter to re-issue it and then mail a free copy to everyone who has evolved their own keyboard layout against a fitness function pulled out of their ass
23:11:25 <oerjan> Bike: i want to read that as Gertrude Stein.
23:11:33 <kmc> starting that kick
23:11:36 <kmc> hm it's on g. books
23:11:51 <Arc_Koen> tswett: what about running on a north-south cycle
23:12:10 <Arc_Koen> antarctica -> america -> greenland -> europe -> something
23:12:17 <Bike> my guess would be somewhere around the greenich meridian but that's uncreative
23:12:32 <Bike> oh hey someone on usenet already asked
23:13:29 <Bike> oh here we go http://jidanni.org/geo/antipodes/hemispheres.html
23:14:00 <olsner> you can at least chose a route that you're somewhat likely to survive (as opposed to anything involving antarctica and greenland)
23:14:39 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, as if anything involving an ocean is going to be survivable.
23:15:17 <tswett> "Our crude program finds two wettest circles, skirting Africa, with 8% land, and one driest circle, through Antarctica, with 55% land."
23:15:34 <tswett> This is definitely ~ going to work.
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23:18:16 <tswett> All right, so, the world map 6,000 meters wide.
23:18:32 <olsner> skip it and just do the picture of the map in the map
23:18:37 <tswett> That'd be on the order of... 40,000 square kilometers. Wow, what a surprise.
23:20:32 <tswett> Which is about 10,000 acres.
23:21:20 <tswett> Which you might be able to buy for about $5,000,000.
23:21:26 <tswett> Anyone have $5,000,000 they feel like blowing?
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23:38:16 * Sgeo hits everyone with a Spring
23:43:39 <Sgeo> Spring spring MVC with XML configure-time configuration
23:44:02 <Sgeo> I do think run-time configuration should be separate from normal run-time
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