00:00:05 <Bike> kmc: whaaaaat.
00:00:50 <Sgeo> Fun fact: I believe I found a cure for this disease. But I haven't tried it yet.
00:01:39 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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00:07:34 <elliott> The Obama administration announced in 2011 that it had determined that section 3 was unconstitutional and, though it would continue to enforce the law, it would no longer defend it in court.
00:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, i think there's a great tragedy in the making here
00:08:34 <oerjan> <elliott> hm, does ((a(b{cd}{e}f)%Ng)%M make sense
00:08:52 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ?
00:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> you're creating genetic disorders so you can cure them
00:09:38 <Bike> hey i saw that movie once
00:09:44 <oerjan> we _did_ discuss that way back, iirc that could be given meaning but it wouldn't be constant space to implement
00:10:13 <Bike> elliott: the next sentence says the republicans are going to defend it anyway, very nice
00:10:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't even realize it was curable until a few days ago
00:10:52 <Sgeo> Had to kill a bunch of norns to work out the exact CAOS involved
00:11:13 <Sgeo> (The documentation for brn: sett isn't very clear imo)
00:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> even i think this is horrifying, and i've watched children born in a prison get shot to death by my marksdwarves in df
00:12:26 <kmc> elliott: yeah I can't remember what "enforce but not defend" actually means
00:12:38 <kmc> should i play df
00:12:55 <Sgeo> The sacrifice norns all died painlessly. Probably.
00:12:57 <elliott> play a df succession fort with us
00:12:59 <kmc> somebody told me that all programmer should play DF at some point
00:13:06 <kmc> i was really stoned at the time so it sounded like a profound idea
00:13:09 <Sgeo> (I can't say for certain because I was randomly poking around in their brains)
00:13:09 <Bike> sgeo slowly becomes the most adorable Mengele since the anime
00:13:43 <shachaf> Somebody told me that I should under no circumstances play DF.
00:14:18 <elliott> kmc: IMO DF is one of the very best-designed games ever, but it also has a really awful interface, so it depends on your tolerance for that
00:14:23 <elliott> dwarf therapist eases that pain a little bit though
00:14:36 <Bike> elliott: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lntskdZrNh1qjgqsko1_500.jpg
00:14:52 <Sgeo> Basically, the commands involved let you adjust any floating-point value in the brain
00:15:02 <Sgeo> But the docs weren't totally clear on how to specify which value
00:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> actually applying any sane principle of design to it would probably ruin it
00:15:07 <oerjan> <Lymia> Qualify that with "given a known hill" <-- okay, although i believe my construction needs only a bounded number of programs to have at least one of them beat anything you put against them on a given tape/polarity. not as few as 50, but maybe no more than a few hundreds.
00:15:31 <Sgeo> So I made a brain that would do something very specific and obvious when a specific value was altered from 1 to 0 (or was it 0 to 1?)
00:15:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well the point is it's not so much designed as is
00:15:52 <Sgeo> So I could try guessing ideas on what exactly was meant, until I found the right spot)
00:16:16 <Bike> you're welcome
00:16:51 <Sgeo> Fun fact: The specific and obvious thing was slapping the hand (which represents the player) non-stop vs. not slapping the hand non-stop
00:19:13 <ion> instance Fun Fact
00:19:48 <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
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00:23:10 <Sgeo> Bloody hell I'm now not sure if Spring even makes sense
00:23:18 <Sgeo> Does it just make the classes it manages singletons?
00:23:31 <Sgeo> As in, great, now you get one instance of the bean that's described/
00:23:34 <elliott> shachaf: do you wait for someone else to talk before finishing it
00:23:49 <shachaf> that way it gets messed up
00:24:32 <kmc> beans beans the musical fruit
00:25:05 <Sgeo> Spring beans != Java beans
00:25:23 <Sgeo> I think I owned JavaBeans for Dummies once
00:25:32 <shachaf> String beans == Green beans
00:26:15 <oerjan> <elliott> (in fact Bike should have already read that chapter before asking about forever) <-- technically forever could be just Applicative too
00:26:22 <shachaf> kmc: If Cale gave (.) its Prelude type would you rejoin #haskell?
00:26:33 <shachaf> We need, like, leverage and stuff, man.
00:26:46 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
00:27:12 <elliott> oerjan: in fact I say that a few lines later!!
00:27:51 <Bike> IDE/Theory: elliott is just an extensing time-ghost of oerjan during logreading
00:30:50 <shachaf> what was that story where the person with the time machine was copying stories from a science fiction author in the future as the author was writing them
00:31:45 <Lymia> oerjan, I'll worry about that when those are actually hill competitive :p
00:32:15 <Bike> > (1+) . [4,5]
00:32:15 <Lymia> I'm reasonably certain that 512 is enough-- esp if they have no loop/flow control to abuse
00:33:30 <Lymia> for n in [0, 255], (>)*9(.)*n(-.)*-1 and (>)*9(.)*n(+.)*-1
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00:34:36 * Lymia kicks shachaf in the shin
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00:35:47 <shachaf> 17:35 <Cale> Shin-LaC: Really, it doesn't work differently. There are just some local bindings in scope and some Prelude definitions are hidden.
00:36:15 <Bike> > (1+) Prelude.. [4,5]
00:36:48 <Lymia> > (.) a b c = a (b c)
00:36:48 <Bike> > (Prelude..) (1+) [4,5]
00:36:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> c0' with actual type `[t0]'
00:36:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:11: parse error on input `='
00:36:53 <oerjan> Lymia: you need versions starting with + or - to beat maximally fast rushes
00:36:55 <Bike> oh it's P. sensible
00:37:17 <Bike> > (1+) v.. [4,5]
00:37:19 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: parse error on input `..'
00:37:27 <Bike> oh right module names have to be capitalized
00:37:29 <Bike> sorry shachaf :(
00:38:30 <oerjan> Lymia: also no waiting sheesh, then you might lose against slower rushes
00:38:56 <Lymia> That's just an outline of the idea. :p
00:39:02 <Lymia> Something like that might stop the system I'm thinking of
00:39:17 <oerjan> <Bike> IDE/Theory: elliott is just an extensing time-ghost of oerjan during logreading <-- plausible
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00:42:14 <shachaf> Hey, this person at the aæeroport is reading _Breakfast of Champions_.
00:42:20 <oerjan> Lymia: it would be _so_ easy to write this if bfjoust syntax weren't ridiculously overlapping with regex syntax.
00:42:22 <shachaf> Remember when I was reading that book? Good times.
00:42:31 <shachaf> I guess I "started a movement" "oops"
00:44:13 <elliott> oerjan should oppose (.)-as-fmap.
00:44:16 <elliott> he helped write the haskell 98 report.
00:44:35 <shachaf> Cale hates Haskell 98 so it won't help.
00:45:17 <Lymia> The goal is to target actual hills, not theoretical "all hills"
00:45:22 <Bike> strict typing is overrated though
00:45:27 <oerjan> Lymia: optional +, (>)*9, (+)*n or (-)*n (n between 0 and 128), and either . + or - at the end in case the opponent defends. 2*129*3 options.
00:45:31 <elliott> shachaf: his name is in the report's acknowledgements
00:45:31 <kmc> lazy typing ftw
00:45:48 <oerjan> Lymia: oh i was writing up my construction
00:45:56 <Lymia> I suspect that's not entirely enough.
00:46:24 <shachaf> elliott: I see an Orjan Johansen.
00:47:09 <Lymia> (+)*5(>)*9(+.)*127+
00:47:30 <shachaf> Both Haskell 98 Reports were revised in August 2001, to incorporate dozens of typographical errors and presentational improvements. A complete list of all changes can be found at http://haskell.org.
00:49:34 <shachaf> haskell 98 report "more like haskell revised in 2001 report"
00:50:02 <Lymia> oerjan, I'm pretty sure that
00:50:17 <Lymia> A similar argument can be made that a program can be made to lose no more than half the rounds.
00:50:35 <Lymia> Or possibly one third.
00:50:57 <oerjan> Lymia: i don't know about that. but you go ahead.
00:51:37 <oerjan> once you don't know the tape length, the opponent's strategy becomes much more complicated to handle.
00:51:54 <kmc> shachaf: 'technical corrigendum'
00:52:08 <Lymia> The idea for targeting actual hills is a greedy search algorithm, effectively.
00:53:05 <Lymia> Instead of treating all strategies separately, work on a sort of "multi-state joust", where you have a long list representing all possible polarities and tape lengths.
00:54:32 <oerjan> Lymia: oh hm my . + - at the end might need a . in front in some cases.
00:54:39 <oerjan> so maybe another doubling.
00:55:23 <Lymia> I think there's a maximum bound of 3^128, at least.
00:55:35 <Lymia> (i.e. every possible string of actions on the flag)
00:57:13 <oerjan> for your construction or mine?
00:57:34 <Lymia> Or, well, any (>)*9suffix
00:57:39 <Lymia> oerjan, well, wait.
00:57:55 <oerjan> it's not necessary with that many.
00:58:10 <Lymia> Let me think for a moment
00:58:27 <oerjan> you just need to ensure that you hit 0 _sometime_, and counteract any action the opponent does in the next step.
00:58:48 <Lymia> There's something notable here.
00:58:58 <Lymia> +(>)*9(+)*1any suffix
00:59:04 <Lymia> That will win against no possible program
00:59:28 <Lymia> In fact, that applies up to 64
00:59:55 <Lymia> I think n only needs to be between 64 and 128
01:00:01 <Lymia> Or, at least, something higher than 0
01:00:15 <Lymia> Since, there's nothing both programs combined can do to bring down the flag to 0 in the shorter values of n
01:00:15 <oerjan> remember that the opponent might do something drastic to their own flag
01:00:44 <oerjan> didn't i just think about that too a while ago.
01:00:46 <kallisti> anyone know of an existing discordian calendar module for Haskell?
01:02:10 <oerjan> Lymia: that's about the limit. it's lower than 64 because the opponent might be changing the flag while i move.
01:03:47 <Lymia> "At least one tape length and at least one polarity"
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01:04:02 <Lymia> You can cut it in half again, by getting rid of polarity inverses-- the hill will have to do that already
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01:05:04 <oerjan> well by my construction _i_ get to choose which length and polarity i win on. in spirit.
01:05:33 <Lymia> (>)*9(+)*n+ == (>)*9(+)*(n+1)
01:05:56 <Lymia> (>)*9(+)*n. == (>)*9(+)*(n-1)+
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01:07:35 <oerjan> ok so no suffix, -, .+, or .-
01:08:23 <oerjan> removing initial + and final .
01:09:53 <Lymia> Initial + might be required, I think.
01:10:07 <Lymia> There's a more elegant way to do it, I think
01:10:12 <oerjan> this is for the (+)*n case. switch + and - for the (-)*n case.
01:10:41 <Lymia> But that doesn't choose a tape length :p
01:11:21 <oerjan> if you want to run of the tap < will do just fine hth
01:11:36 <oerjan> what happened to my keyboard there
01:11:49 <Lymia> If you allow for multiple tape lengths.
01:13:41 <oerjan> why is mezzacotta down
01:32:44 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
01:33:08 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust trip_draw +>+++[]<(+)*-1
01:33:12 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_trip_draw: 8.7
01:35:48 <Arc_Koen> !bfjoust trip_draw +>+++[]<(.+)*-1
01:35:53 <EgoBot> Score for Arc_Koen_trip_draw: 10.4
01:42:14 <Arc_Koen> hmm are you telling me that Fiora's time-stopping-mahou-shojo, which got 33, is actually an empty program?
01:50:28 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: well that's what http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/index.php tells me
01:52:01 <Sgeo> How do people stand having full-time jobs?
01:52:06 <Bike> Fiora wrote something that got 33 that fast, huh
01:53:41 <oerjan> Sgeo: they don't. they have their souls replaced with rutabagas after a couple months.
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01:56:15 <kmc> Sgeo: first day didn't go well?
01:56:41 <Sgeo> It's going ... adequately
01:56:45 <Sgeo> And this was my second day
01:57:00 <Sgeo> I just... don't entirely look forward to having no energy outside of work during the work week
01:57:28 <kmc> why no energy?
01:58:03 <kmc> gotta get your 100 W
01:58:27 <Sgeo> Because my sleep cycle is a bit off
01:58:41 <Bike> won't it get less off as you get into the rhythm
01:58:43 <Sgeo> Maybe when that adjusts, I will actually find time for sanity
01:58:49 <oerjan> Sgeo: maybe you are having jet lag due to the change in sleeping cycle? that _should_ fix itself, one hopes. (present company notwithstanding.)
02:05:58 * oerjan knows that's not technically jet lag btw
02:07:16 <oerjan> "The condition of jet lag may last several days until one is fully adjusted to the new time zone, and a recovery rate of one day per time zone crossed is a suggested guideline."
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02:07:38 <oerjan> thank you, Phantom_Hoover
02:08:05 <oerjan> i understand phantoms are very good at recognizing dimensionless quantities
02:09:58 <oerjan> it appears to be more in larger units
02:11:02 <oerjan> "Since 2003, Vietnam has replaced its cotton banknotes with plastic polymer banknotes, which it claims will reduce costs.[10] Many newspapers in the country criticized these changes, citing mistakes in printing and alleging that the son of the governor of the State Bank of Vietnam benefited from printing contracts.[10] The government clamped down on these criticisms by banning two newspapers from publishing for a month and considering other sanctions
02:11:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes i graduated from UNIT
02:11:38 <Bike> other sanctions...
02:12:05 * Phantom_Hoover decides to stop trying to work out how much a ningi is worth
02:14:38 <oerjan> "In present-day Vietnam, because the value of the currency is so small, one đồng could also be understood as one thousand đồng."
02:15:42 * Sgeo sees something like that in some online games
02:16:00 <Sgeo> EVE Online people use a million ISK as the basis for talking about currency, I think
02:16:09 <Bike> inflation, man
02:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if you can actually spend individual eve moneys
02:16:35 <oerjan> huh the iranian currency unit is now the least valued on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_valued_currency_unit
02:16:46 <oerjan> the sanctions really hurt
02:16:50 <elliott> now i want a space croissant
02:17:49 <oerjan> `? misspellings of space croissant
02:17:51 <HackEgo> misspellings of space croissant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:17:57 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, in the backstory, even 1 ISK makes you incredibly rich compared to the people who live on planets
02:18:13 <oerjan> in space, croissants cannot be misspelled
02:18:23 <Bike> that seems unlikely, economically speaking
02:18:32 <Bike> like that's a ridiculous wealth disparit
02:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what was that thing you said about EVE's choice of factions when you played the demo?
02:23:10 <elliott> iirc they were all terrible and i picked the anarchocapitalists (i forget why)
02:27:49 <Sgeo> This one quest gives you a quest item called "A Lot of Money"
02:28:43 <Sgeo> But I've read about it
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02:32:15 <kmc> one thousand dong
02:34:17 <Lymia> http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/1083748?tags=failure
02:37:00 <Bike> Wait, it's not Go?
02:37:13 <Bike> wait duh the black piece is already captured
02:38:22 <Sgeo> It's tagged reversi o.O
02:38:51 <Bike> yeah they're reversi pieces and the position is illegal in go (also who plays go on 8x8)
02:39:13 <Sgeo> Also go is on the lines. I hate how I only just noticed that
02:39:34 <Sgeo> I noticed the black piece with no liberties first
02:39:40 <Bike> the image is tagged "reversi".
02:39:40 <Sgeo> coppro, look at the list of tags
02:40:00 <Sgeo> tagged reversi does sound like an awesome game
02:40:03 <Bike> Danbooru is basically the most successful Semantic Web thing ever
02:40:35 <coppro> I thought you meant the game was called Tagged Reversi
02:43:31 <kmc> spineless tagless reversi
02:46:09 <Bike> what kind of reversi do you usually play, dude
02:55:15 <oerjan> the reverse of this, obviously
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03:08:30 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:08:33 <Sgeo> Veracity of slist not confirmed
03:08:41 <Sgeo> Veracity of slist confirmed
03:09:23 <Bike> you should switch to a graded system, to account for veracity confirmation difficulties
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03:36:37 <HackEgo> back: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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04:05:20 <Sgeo> My day is literally impossible. Wake up at 5am, get home at 7pm, 3 hours dinner, 8 hours sleep. There is not enough time for that, it's impossible.
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04:11:34 <kmc> 3 hours dinner?
04:11:42 <kmc> also why do you have to get up at 5am
04:12:49 <Sgeo> It took me ~2 hours to eat dinner tonight, and I ended up not eating much of it
04:13:06 <Sgeo> And I need to force myself to mentally wake up, and get ready
04:13:24 <kmc> good night
04:13:25 <kmc> don't die Sgeo
04:13:33 <kmc> if it takes you 2 hours to eat and you can barely eat then something is wrong
04:13:51 <kmc> lack of energy might have something to do with not eating
04:13:52 <Sgeo> I don't remember it not taking that long
04:13:59 <kmc> why does it take so long?
04:14:02 <elliott> you're blowing my mind here kmc
04:14:13 <Sgeo> Not especially interested in food, I guess.
04:14:25 <Sgeo> Although maybe 1 box of pasta is a bit large of a portion?
04:16:18 <Sgeo> ~800 calories iirc
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04:29:21 <kmc> 800 calories is a pretty standard meal for a lot of people
04:29:27 <kmc> i mean you need like 2000 a day
04:32:14 <Fiora> 800 calories is kind of a big meal
04:39:14 <kmc> i only eat two meals a day
04:40:52 <Fiora> I usually eat a lunchish thing before work and dinner when I get home
04:41:01 <Sgeo> I want to see a doctor over the weekend
04:41:11 <Sgeo> Have had a weird cough this week and face keeps going red
04:41:31 <Bike> "also my diet is used as a torture mechanism in some countries"
04:42:35 <kmc> a Chipotle opened one block from where I work, which resulted in a lot of 1600 calorie meals for a while
04:42:42 <kmc> but to prevent astonishing fatness, I am cutting back
04:42:45 <Fiora> 1600? O_O aren't the burritos like ~800ish at max?
04:42:50 <Fiora> or is that with like chips and a drink
04:42:56 <kmc> burrito + chips and guac
04:43:06 <kmc> + a drink but it's diet
04:43:07 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try Chipotle
04:43:16 <Bike> is that a real abbreviation? "guac", do people talk about "guac"
04:43:32 <Fiora> chipotle is really really good
04:43:38 <Fiora> I can't usually eat a whole burrito though, I prefer the salads
04:43:43 <Fiora> it's like the burrito without all the unhealthy parts
04:44:02 <kmc> Bike: that's how I order it
04:44:13 <kmc> Sgeo: you're in New York?
04:44:37 <kmc> yeah it's hard to get good mexican food in many parts of NY, you might as well eat Chipotle or Qdoba
04:44:46 <Bike> "Haskell provides indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers." exactly what an array is.
04:44:47 <kmc> eating Chipotle in San Francisco would be some kind of crime or weird statement
04:44:59 <kmc> Bike: mathematicians *eye roll*
04:45:06 <kmc> Sgeo: where abouts are you living?
04:45:25 <Bike> "Functions restricted in this way can be implemented efficiently"
04:45:57 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, I've been eating the burrito bowl recently, that's like 600 cal as configured, and pretty high protein
04:46:11 <kmc> chips and guac alone is more food than that o_O
04:46:11 <Fiora> I like the salad with guacamole as the dressing basically (plus salsa)
04:46:34 <Fiora> I think it's like ~500-600 calories, not much carbs-wise, and really tasty and filling
04:46:50 <Fiora> but it's a bit of a trek to get to the chipotle here so I usually get panera if I go out
04:46:53 <kmc> Sgeo: like the part that's in NYC, or the further out part?
04:47:00 <kmc> mm panera's decent
04:47:05 <kmc> Sgeo: do you commute on LIRR then
04:47:21 <kmc> maybe tomorrow for lunch I will have just chips and guac
04:47:59 <Sgeo> Yes, but workplace is also on LI
04:48:04 <Bike> did somebody tell me Data.Array was bad? i forget
04:48:05 <Fiora> the chips things at chipotle are huuge
04:48:12 <kmc> yep, I think they're meant to be shared
04:48:22 <Fiora> yeah, I got that feeling too when I saw them
04:48:30 <kmc> i used to get burrito and chips and guac and that was my one meal for the day
04:48:33 <kmc> that was... kind of weird
04:50:37 <kmc> damn it now i'm hungry
04:52:37 <elliott> Bike: haha where is that from
04:53:20 <Bike> elliott: spec for Data.Array
04:53:42 <Bike> also they say that to ensure this efficiency they're values instead of functions
04:57:10 <Bike> "Right and left shifts by amounts greater than or equal to the width of the type result in a zero result. This is contrary to the behaviour in C, which is undefined; a common interpretation is to truncate the shift count to the width of the type, for example 1 << 32 == 1 in some C implementations." i didn't know that.
04:58:40 <Fiora> huh, I've never heard of that particular behavior :o
04:58:51 <Fiora> the two I can remember are "large shift is zero" and "shift is mod 32"
04:59:36 <Fiora> "shl eax, cl" in x86 does "eax <<= cl&31" I think
04:59:59 <Fiora> but "pslld xmm0, xmm1" does xmm0 <<= xmm1 (so it zeroes if it's big)
05:00:31 <Fiora> I discovered this the hard way the other day when I was wondering why my shifts were coming out wrong, and my register had like, {X,X,X,X} in it (where each X was my shift value, 32-bit) instead of {X,0,0,0}
05:00:44 <Fiora> and it actually looked at the entire register O_O
05:00:48 <Fiora> instead of just the low bit
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05:04:35 <Bike> "unsafeLocalState :: IO a -> a" oh baby
05:05:12 <kmc> it's like unsafePerformIO but with stronger (unchecked) preconditions
05:05:24 <kmc> there are some mailing list arguments about whether GHC's implementation should be unsafeDupablePerformIO
05:06:15 <kmc> my neighbors like to practice piano and singing at 1 in the morning
05:06:19 <kmc> not a complaint just an observation
05:06:20 <Bike> good ol mailing list arguments and piano
05:07:12 <kmc> also "It is expected that this operation will be replaced in a future revision of Haskell."
05:07:36 <Bike> standard stable pointers. that's kinda nice.
05:07:58 <elliott> i don't think anyone has ever used unsafeLocalState
05:08:00 <kmc> yup. and ForeignPtr
05:08:10 <elliott> it's kind of weird that all kinds of ptrs are standard but not, like, IORef
05:08:26 <kmc> that is weird
05:08:37 <Bike> the standard contains the phrase "Haskell land", very nice
05:08:51 <elliott> it also refers to getLine as a "function" :(
05:09:18 <Bike> if arrays can be functions so can IO actions, elliott
05:09:32 <elliott> also GHC error messages do this "everything is a function" thing it's awful
05:10:17 <kmc> a lot of the text in the Report and in the base library docs is just poorly written
05:10:57 <kmc> an IO action is a function from a RealWorld where you are confused about IO actions to a RealWorld where you are even more confused about IO actions
05:11:10 <kmc> also it's a monoid
05:11:16 <Bike> is that "RealWorld" like an actual thing because it sounds dumb kind of?
05:11:35 <kmc> RealWorld is invoked in two very very different contexts
05:11:38 <kmc> which people tend to mix up
05:11:43 <Bike> oh christ it is isn't it
05:11:48 <elliott> Bike: GHC implements IO a as State# RealWorld -> (# State# RealWorld, a #)
05:11:53 <elliott> note that this is 99% misleading
05:12:01 <kmc> also it's lies
05:12:07 <Bike> yeah i'm fine with IO just being a thing
05:12:24 <kmc> the other kind of RealWorld is an analogy for IO, type IO a = RealWorld -> (RealWorld, a)
05:12:24 <Bike> it's okay. it's okay, IO. I believe in you, you don't have to prove yourself to me or anyone else.
05:12:28 <elliott> (basically it's like () -> ((), a) except the () and the tuple are erased at runtime)
05:12:34 <elliott> (and it's used so that the compiler doesn't reoder the operations)
05:12:41 <elliott> (under the hood everything is just impure)
05:12:51 <kmc> the analogy looks a lot like the GHC definition but they're totally different
05:13:01 <elliott> let's not tell Bike the stupid state monad analogy for IO
05:13:08 <elliott> he does not deserve the pain
05:13:26 <kmc> the -> in the GHC definition is not the Haskell function type because it's an impure function
05:13:29 <Bike> is this a monad tutorial thing
05:13:37 <kmc> and State# RealWorld is erased at runtime
05:13:43 <kmc> and RealWorld itself has no values, it's only a type tag
05:14:08 <elliott> i just said that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:14:12 <elliott> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:14:13 <kmc> you said some of it
05:14:18 <elliott> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:14:41 <kmc> the RealWorld analogy is bad for a few reasons, one is "the outside world", one is concurrency, but mostly it's just a confusing distraction
05:15:05 <Bike> so why'd you bring it up i don't understand these jokes i'm too noobish help
05:15:17 <kmc> well you asked if RealWorld was a real thing..............
05:15:31 <kmc> these aren't jokes I am just telling you about things that are bad
05:15:34 <Bike> after you mentioned it!
05:15:41 <kmc> that was a joke
05:15:46 <Bike> also "Computation getProgName returns the name of the program as it was invoked. However, this is hard-to-impossible to implement on some non-Unix OSes, so instead, for maximum portability, we just return the leafname of the program as invoked." good standard
05:15:57 <kmc> see it worked!!!!!!!!!!!! a RealWorld where you are confused about IO actions
05:16:06 <Bike> also also are things in IO called "computations" for some reason
05:16:13 <kmc> or in monads generally
05:16:28 <kmc> also I'm super pedantic so I wouldn't say "returns"
05:16:34 <Bike> that seems pointless. i think monads should just be monads. i like monads
05:16:35 <kmc> but like "produces" or "yields"
05:16:47 <elliott> getProgName "ends in" (return progName)
05:16:49 <kmc> Bike: you need a name for the values whose types are made from monads
05:16:55 <elliott> it's more correct than like "succ 3 returns 4"
05:16:59 <kmc> the monad itself is a type constructor
05:17:10 <Bike> "monadic values"?
05:17:11 <kmc> so they get called computations or actions or mobits
05:17:18 <kmc> a little clunky
05:17:21 <elliott> monadic value is sort of a misnomer, though it's high pedantry to say so
05:17:25 <elliott> because the value itself isn't "monadic"
05:17:25 <Bike> i am all about the clunk
05:17:35 <kmc> plus it suggests that monadic values are magically different from the other kind
05:17:37 <Bike> that's pretty high pedandtry, yeah
05:17:37 <elliott> it just happens to have a type of the form (m a) where m is a monad
05:17:40 <kmc> suggests the bad "pure vs impure" analogy
05:18:20 <Bike> do haskell people just either really hate or really love analogies is that it
05:19:28 <kmc> surely you've read the 'monad tutorial fallacy' article
05:19:35 <kmc> if not then do that thing I said
05:20:03 <kmc> an analogy is like a self-referential joke about analogies
05:20:09 <Bike> I probably did at one point. I think for like the past year I knew more about monad tutorials than I did about monads? Maybe?
05:20:42 <kmc> or did i just blow your mind
05:21:06 <Bike> a self-reference self self reference refeselfreferselfreferreferself---refer-self----referererererer
05:21:20 <kmc> that's actually the last page of GEB
05:21:50 <kmc> my friend made shirts that just say "RECURSION" in big letters
05:22:06 <kmc> tends to confuse programmers
05:22:10 <kmc> also other people
05:22:16 <kmc> but for different reasons
05:22:25 <Bike> you know you can get shirts that say "fuck you"
05:22:29 <Bike> i'm just sayin there's an easier way
05:22:51 <kmc> you know you can get http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Controlled-Flying-F-ck/dp/B002P4J2P8
05:23:11 <elliott> i should buy some stupid shirts to then not wear
05:23:22 <Bike> they censored it. that's great
05:23:40 <elliott> i like to imagine it's an actual blur irl
05:23:57 <elliott> the problem is how do you utilise it
05:23:58 <Bike> this fuck is outside your mortal knowledge
05:24:00 <elliott> you can't fly it up to someone
05:24:05 <elliott> because you're trying to say you DON'T give a flying fuck
05:24:08 <elliott> you can't just give it like that
05:24:17 <elliott> hover it where they can see it but not plausibly obtain it
05:24:21 <elliott> hover it outside their window maybe
05:24:30 <Fiora> I am pretty sure I still don't actually understand monads (please don't explain monads to me)
05:24:50 <Bike> a monad is like a box of chocolates
05:24:52 <elliott> we are post-monad tutorial, Fiora
05:25:12 <Bike> I only write tutorials about post-rock lyricless songs mocking the concept of monad tutorials.
05:25:17 <elliott> ps you should read learn you a haskell. except skip the parts about functors because Bike discovered they're terrible?
05:25:20 <kmc> "This is a pretty fun little aircraft. It's not very controllable though... I felt I got my moneys worth before 1 of propellors broke"
05:25:41 <kmc> $25 well spent
05:26:24 <Bike> also i'm actually on the part about monoids right now. so that's happening
05:26:32 <elliott> People generally take this the wrong way when you give it to them, but now that it exists there is a more serious issue: every time I don't show up with one of these to a birthday party I hear about how I didn't give one when I selected my gift.
05:26:41 <kmc> "Useful, but not easy to clean"
05:26:44 <elliott> Bike: you should have no trouble, they are so easy
05:26:44 <Bike> "The first function is mempty. It's not really a function, since it doesn't take parameters,"
05:26:52 <kmc> Bike: owwwww my head
05:26:56 <elliott> i remember lyah being good???? when i read it
05:27:01 <Bike> i'm just going to quote things at you until you die hth
05:27:03 <elliott> i guess i was like 12, but...
05:27:16 <Bike> elliott are you some kind of savant? like, at dying i guess
05:27:28 <Bike> i think when i was twelve i was learning like, qbasic
05:27:42 <Bike> or maybe trying to make my calculator play video games
05:27:49 <Bike> or maybe just dicking around in starcraft WHO KNOWS
05:27:57 <Bike> (that game is hard)
05:28:05 <elliott> i "only" really started learning to program properly when i was ~8
05:28:14 <kmc> i hope Sgeo doesn't die
05:28:31 <elliott> well if the past billion years haven't killed him
05:28:45 <Bike> it'd be nice if he didn't die. that'd e good let's do that
05:30:48 <kmc> i'm so hungry and tired
05:30:59 <kmc> maybe if I sleep now I can get to work at 'not lazy bum' hour
05:31:06 <kmc> 'night all
05:31:14 <Bike> http://s3.amazonaws.com/lyah/smug.png
05:33:33 <elliott> Bike: hey can you pester me to update the wiki tomorrow
05:34:12 <Bike> to edit decipher the voynich manuscript
05:34:37 <elliott> voynich mansucript creeps me the fuck out
05:35:00 <Bike> Have you seen that artificial one based on it? with the alligator fucking?
05:35:38 <elliott> i never forget an alligator-fucking
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06:00:35 <shachaf> 22:35 <KeithW> SHA-256: e74d0d323226046e402dd469a176075fc2013b69b0e67cea49762c957175df46
06:00:48 <shachaf> kmc: Is your hash-changing thing also going to work for IRC?
06:24:32 <elliott> i ahve to do things before sleping
06:24:36 <elliott> but i dont want to do them
06:25:48 <shachaf> elliott: imo if you never sleep youll never have to do them???????
06:34:12 <shachaf> elliott: it's almost midnight hth
06:35:08 <Bike> you've clearly been trapped in A Bad Timezome. imo move to the aleutians.
06:35:51 <shachaf> Mother Night is a strange book.
06:35:54 <elliott> i wonder if my sleep schedule would be improved by moving to a timezone closer to america, so i wouldn't talk on irc so goddamn late.
06:36:22 <shachaf> elliott: imo move to america then make friends in australia hth
06:36:53 <Bike> I live in america and still end up distracted by people online at 3 AM. it's possible americans just suck.
06:37:13 <Bike> also http://s3.amazonaws.com/lyah/smugpig.png
06:44:29 <shachaf> Bike: You should get _Programming in Haskell_ by Hutton and read that instead.
06:44:31 <Fiora> but staying up late is a good thing, it means it's easier to avoid the rays of the fusion death ball that rises during the day
06:44:59 <shachaf> Fiora: You're the only vampire in here, you know.
06:45:08 <shachaf> Even oerjan isn't a vampire.
06:45:51 <Bike> Honestly I'm thinking I should go back to Darwin. His 300 page book about worm shit. He literally wrote 300 pages about worm shit and it's probably better than whatever you just said.
06:45:52 <Fiora> I'm not a vampire :<
06:46:03 <Fiora> just because I am pale skinned doesn't make me a vampire
06:46:05 <Fiora> I don't have fangs
06:46:07 <Fiora> I don't like blood
06:46:11 <elliott> Fiora: i think you'll find the fusion death ball has already risen.
06:46:20 <Bike> Maybe you're some kind of covampire.
06:46:21 * Fiora looks outside. no fusion death ball
06:46:28 <elliott> i am sorry that you live in the wrong place.
06:46:38 <shachaf> elliott: if you don't like blood how come you're made of it? checkmate
06:46:39 <Bike> Well she's not, because she'd be burned alive.
06:46:42 <Bike> You insensitive jerk.
06:46:43 <elliott> there is also snow but it's really shitty snow.
06:47:16 <Fiora> I don't like the taste of it okay :<
06:47:20 <Bike> screaming ten year olds
06:47:26 <Bike> Fiora: why not, it's sweet.
06:47:41 <Bike> It's full of sugars!
06:48:20 <elliott> i like how i was planning to be asleep, like, an hour ago.
06:48:34 <Fiora> it's not full of sugar :<
06:48:53 <Fiora> I mean it's like, what, 80mg/dl?
06:49:08 <Bike> details, details
06:49:09 <Fiora> that means an entire liter has less than a gram of sugar, that's hardly sweet!
06:52:42 <shachaf> I,I garlic is good / vampires are FUD / sugar is sweet / and so is blood
06:54:00 <elliott> that sthe worst poem i've ever heard
06:54:24 <elliott> btw is it just me or is the topic too big
06:54:32 -!- elliott has set topic: new topic | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
06:55:03 <Fiora> I don't think I make a very good vampire really
06:55:06 <shachaf> elliott: imo "ur the worst poem ive ever heard"
06:55:33 <shachaf> Fiora: Do I make a very good Nepeta Leijon?
06:55:40 <HackEgo> Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist.
06:55:53 <Bike> haha i totally forgot about that
06:56:22 <Fiora> like, I'm not a tall, sexy vampire who fights werewolves, and I'm also not a tiny frill-wearing vampire with a silly hat and colorful wings
06:57:04 <Bike> Maybe we could set up wisdom/Fiora to just quote everything she says she's not.
06:57:04 <elliott> she makes a good point, shachaf.
06:57:05 <shachaf> those don't sound like vampires at all
06:58:52 <Fiora> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/f4b268396810b642158d07848da004ae.jpg is it wrong that when I think of vampires I think of flandre and remilia first -_-
06:59:22 <Bike> toho return of flander
07:01:10 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sample/sample-13eb7b5973e4502658981f23bbcb494e.jpg I guess that's vampiric.
07:01:42 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/475bae4fdc58fb9ee34ce4a1e4d1104a.jpg Basically what Fiora looks like.
07:02:10 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/762600df4f6d018cb13f43c66da1f995/tumblr_mk99cx9d7L1qg2oejo1_500.jpg I'm more a patchy than a vampire
07:02:25 <Fiora> with liking to stay in the basement and read books and write assem^W^Wuse magic
07:04:35 <Fiora> ..... oh my gosh that pun
07:04:44 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/sample/sample-f31832024306cb103319146d31e72d77.jpg
07:04:48 <Fiora> that was wonderful
07:05:24 <shachaf> You shouldn't call people's puns "wonderful". It makes them uncomfortable.
07:05:35 <shachaf> Try groaning or saying that the pun and/or the person is terrible.
07:05:37 <Bike> perhaps "fun"puns
07:05:51 <Fiora> but I like puns ._.
07:05:53 <Bike> i have horse porn and i'm not afraid to use it
07:06:03 <shachaf> Bike: let's try ygolohcysp
07:06:11 <elliott> Bike: i was actually just about to leave
07:06:17 <elliott> but now it's going to look like i'm leaving because of horse porn
07:06:21 <shachaf> elliott hates me so much that he'll do the opposite of what i say even if he doesn't want to
07:06:30 <Fiora> and bike I don't give people that face :<
07:06:42 <shachaf> 17:51 <shachaf> I thought lambdabot didn't import Numeric.Lens. I guess it was a baseless assumption.
07:06:54 <shachaf> Fiora is missing out on that pun by not being a lens user.
07:06:59 <elliott> goodnight, I hate everything and everyone
07:07:01 <Bike> Fiora: I bet you have the moon pendant though.
07:07:39 <shachaf> Fiora: Anyway, you know what they say: The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
07:08:16 <Fiora> Bike: as much as I am a patchy I don't (I'm really more of an alice though)
07:08:19 <Fiora> I'm not grumpy enough to be patchy
07:09:15 <shachaf> I,I "An alice?" "From the palace." "The alice from the palace --" "-- holds the pellet with the poison."
07:09:44 <shachaf> (I don't know what any of these things are.)
07:09:49 <Bike> http://danbooru.donmai.us/data/b17cf8215d85857686a430451fa9697d.png I can dig it.
07:09:59 <Fiora> why do you always post gory things
07:11:15 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m46cn5hH2B1qbp2zbo1_1280.jpg http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxwmm07xSo1qevpjfo1_1280.jpg how about more like this alice
07:11:21 <Bike> I thought you liked Danbooru.
07:11:27 <Fiora> not really, it's mostly porn
07:11:42 <Bike> I"m not linking porn!
07:11:53 <Fiora> gore is your idea of porn right? <.<
07:12:04 <Bike> Is Alice known for slander
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07:13:14 <Fiora> and there he goes...
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13:12:47 <fizzie> boily: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
13:15:49 <boily> fizzie: there, just for you, an unbalanced parenthesis: （
13:17:50 <fizzie> boily: syntax error near unexpected token `('
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13:18:36 <fizzie> (That was some kind of a freaky giant parenthesis.)
13:19:27 <boily> behold the power of fullwidth characters!
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13:41:17 <fizzie> I have trouble thinking up sensible questions on the topic of mixture models that don't involve estimating their parameters with EM.
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14:43:38 <boily> weird. metasepia suddenly died by itself.
14:47:57 <kmc> cuttlefish don't live very long
14:48:08 <kmc> the babies are born as orphans :/
14:48:29 <kmc> so they don't get a chance to use their intelligence for much in the way of learning or culture
14:48:39 <kmc> and indeed it's somewhat puzzling why they're so smart to begin with
14:50:21 <boily> they taste good, too.
14:50:47 <boily> (deep fried baby cuttlefishes, with a plate of bok choi and a large tsingtao...)
14:52:25 <Fiora> kmc: I think it's to prevent them from taking over the world
14:52:36 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/d708ec2f87f32813e561608b47a65469/tumblr_mjbqkaCeed1rw5m2lo1_400.gif wub wub wub wub wub NOM
14:53:07 <Fiora> geez, that cuttlefish needs to check its refresh rate
14:53:40 <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank
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14:54:37 <Fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue
14:54:43 <Fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it's using american water
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14:56:46 <boily> `addquote <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank <fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue <fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it's using american water
14:56:52 <HackEgo> 993) <kmc> error: cuttlefish not synced to vblank <fiora> maybe it's a power phase issue <fiora> it's like, a european cuttlefish but it's using american water
14:57:36 <HackEgo> 992) <zzo38> If you cannot type, then you should learn to type if you want to operate your computer
14:57:42 <HackEgo> 991) <zzo38> I don't think there are any pope with fractional numbers (except something I made up for the Dungeons&Dragons game)
14:57:49 <HackEgo> 990) <zzo38> Papal infallibility means that the pope is allowed to be infallible by himself if he wants to, without requiring a council.
14:57:58 <HackEgo> 989) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
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15:07:44 <kmc> Fiora: haha
15:08:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
15:09:10 <boily> what's the command again to have a nice paste for all quotes?
15:09:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25045
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15:18:54 <Taneb> What was that thingy which wasn't a semigroup but you could subtract two to get a semigroup and add that semigroup onto it
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15:23:46 <Taneb> I think it began with v
15:25:17 <boily> the only potentially relevant entry on wikipedia is "Vertex operator algebra".
15:25:30 <boily> and/or "Von Neumann algebra".
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16:10:35 <coppro> damn, algebraic graph theory is weird
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17:12:07 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
17:12:24 <boily> `translatefromto fr en ça marche tu encore ou bien python a flanché entretemps?
17:12:27 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
17:12:44 <HackEgo> 2013-03-27 17:12:41: <Taneb> `seen Taneb ever
17:13:04 <HackEgo> 2012-02-15 17:21:48: <Taneb_> Not tonight, got a party
17:13:44 <Taneb> It wasn't the UV rave where I fell asleep
17:16:40 <Gregor> Something about grepping the logs to implement `seen is brilliantly retarded.
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18:22:32 <Taneb> I need to stop procastinating
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18:25:48 <boily> Taneb: use the ten-minute-rule. without any clock, timer, chronograph or time display, just start doing the task at hand while thinking "only for ten minutes, then I'll stop".
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18:40:29 <mroman> You don't get anything done?
18:40:44 <mroman> I'd stop after two minutes :)
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18:42:39 <boily> mroman: the intent here is that floating time perception is very bad, and you just do what you have to do.
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19:21:10 <fizzie> :hi is a purely symbolic greeting.
19:22:41 <boily> as the old klingon proverb goes, "olen nukahtaa tuolissani."
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19:41:00 <oerjan> <shachaf> Even oerjan isn't a vampire. <-- shockingly, despite the skin color.
19:43:39 <fizzie> Do you SPARKLE? (Actually, I shouldn't probably try making any Twilight references, all I know about it is other people's stupid jokes.)
19:43:57 <metasepia> sparkle definition: to throw out sparks.
19:44:27 <metasepia> vampire definition: the reanimated body of a dead person believed to come from the grave at night and suck the blood of persons asleep.
19:44:45 <fizzie> I didn't know they specialized in persons asleep.
19:44:56 <metasepia> umpire definition: one having authority to decide finally a controversy or question between parties.
19:45:20 <fizzie> The Umpire State Building.
19:46:14 <fizzie> Vimperator is some kind of a Vim-alike thing in some other thing, right?
19:47:58 <boily> vimperator is a firefox extension that vims it. it was forked some time ago into pentadactyl.
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20:20:58 <oerjan> <Bike> "The first function is mempty. It's not really a function, since it doesn't take parameters,"
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20:21:29 <oerjan> is there something like the seven deadly sins of haskell, where calling a non- -> value a function is one of them?
20:21:52 <elliott> oerjan: the report does it :(
20:21:55 <Taneb> Is a value of type Endo Int a function?
20:21:59 <oerjan> i guess it would be hard to get it down to seven
20:22:03 <Taneb> How about Kleisli [] Int Char
20:22:07 <oerjan> elliott: i don't see how that is an argument.
20:23:07 <oerjan> Taneb: hey if you church encode everything...
20:23:32 <oerjan> hm i guess the church encoding of () is actually not a function.
20:23:41 <Taneb> Is it possible to church encode a finite enum
20:23:47 <elliott> oerjan: it's a -> a, isn't it
20:24:01 <Taneb> elliott, I think so
20:24:06 <augur> elliott: can i get an acceptability judgement on a sentence form you?
20:24:07 <oerjan> elliott: no, that would be data A = A A
20:24:26 <elliott> oerjan: wait, what is the encoding of () then.
20:24:30 <elliott> data A = A A is (a -> a) -> a i think
20:24:39 <augur> elliott: John wrote a story --- and Frank tried to find a documentary --- about the Romans yesterday
20:24:52 <oerjan> hm maybe you are right about that
20:25:26 <oerjan> ok i guess a -> a is logical
20:25:36 <elliott> augur: unacceptable because the use of "---" for em dashes is sin. it seems acceptable to me, a little awkward perhaps, probably better with commas in place of the em dashes?
20:26:11 <oerjan> Either x y is (x -> a) -> (y -> a) -> a
20:26:59 <oerjan> elliott: i guess Void is what's actually forall a. a
20:27:28 <elliott> oerjan: you can think of it like
20:27:37 <elliott> (Void -> a) -> a =~ forall a. a
20:27:43 <elliott> (() -> a) -> a =~ forall a. a -> a
20:27:53 <elliott> ((x,y) -> a) -> a =~ forall a. (x -> y -> a) -> a
20:28:56 <oerjan> elliott: well what i actually did think here was that () is the unit of the (x,y,...) construction, so it should still have the \f -> , while Void is the unit of Either x (Either y ...) so becomes just a when you remove all the (v -> a) terms
20:30:15 <elliott> but in general AFAIK, church encoding is just rewriting forall a. (thetype -> a) -> a until it doesn't mention anything but variables and (->) any more
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20:34:13 <augur> elliott: yeah, just say it out loud, i dont care about punctuation, just the sentence/timing
20:35:09 <elliott> yeah, it's fine enough to me
20:35:26 <elliott> probably wouldn't phrase it like that myself, though
20:35:40 <augur> church encoding is just fold!
20:37:18 <augur> and reynolds encoding is just case
20:37:24 <augur> i think its reynolds encoding, right?
20:38:02 <boily> ~duck reynolds encoding
20:38:13 <augur> whats the other one
20:38:33 <shachaf> elliott: are you thinking of boehm-berarducci encoding.............
20:38:41 <augur> i wrote a blog post about this at some point :P
20:38:57 <augur> or started to anyway
20:40:26 <boily> ~duck scott encoding
20:40:26 <metasepia> In computer science, Scott encoding is a way to embed inductive datatypes in the lambda calculus.
20:41:56 <augur> metasepia: indeed!
20:42:20 <augur> basically, scott encoding is just pre-applying case to everything
20:43:12 <elliott> http://okmij.org/ftp/tagless-final/course/Boehm-Berarducci.html
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20:44:06 <augur> scott encoding only works if you dont have universe levels, btw.
20:44:15 <augur> with levels it becomes a huge pain in the ass
20:44:55 <oerjan> <Taneb> What was that thingy which wasn't a semigroup but you could subtract two to get a semigroup and add that semigroup onto it
20:45:14 <oerjan> if you mispled "group" then that is, hm what was it again
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20:46:42 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/Programming/ScottEncodingsExplained.lhs
20:46:51 <augur> theres my pre-posted blog post on it
20:47:04 <oerjan> apparently torsor are also easy http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/torsors.html
20:47:23 <augur> i was actually going to rewrite part of it because some of my explanation can be replaced with something more straightforward
20:54:23 <oerjan> Taneb: C pointers are torsors, i think, except sometimes things are undefined.
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20:54:48 <Taneb> oerjan, my mind's archetypical torsor is times
20:55:22 <Taneb> Like, I can subtract Tuesday Lunchtime from Wednesday Suppertime
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20:55:34 <Taneb> And get a day and 6 hours or so
20:55:52 <oerjan> hm is time being torsor the same as saying physics is time invariant
20:56:30 <oerjan> and thus connected to energy conservation by noether's theorem
20:56:38 <Taneb> And you can add a day and 6 hours to Wednesday Suppertime and get... Friday "why am I awake" time
20:57:04 <oerjan> Taneb: it all gets messed up when you include months and years though
20:57:50 <Fiora> I thought physics is only cpt-invariant
20:57:51 <Taneb> They're just days multiplied by almost constants
21:00:01 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Taneb: C pointers are torsors, i think, except sometimes things are undefined. <-- err how?
21:00:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: you can subtract C pointers to get integers...
21:01:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, but fairly limited, I wouldn't call it just "sometimes" things are undefined.
21:01:06 <Vorpal> Most of the time they are
21:01:15 <augur> elliott: your feedback would be appreciated. :)
21:01:19 <oerjan> Fiora: that's switching _sign_ of time. i'm talking about adding a constant to it.
21:01:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, only if your pointers are already constructed from the same object
21:01:33 <Vorpal> then and only then can you substract them
21:01:40 <augur> Fiora: physics has lots of symmetries
21:02:09 <oerjan> Vorpal: your pedanticness is off the charts, hth
21:02:17 <kmc> there's some theorem about every conservation law is based on a symmetry
21:02:25 <augur> kmc: noethers theorem
21:02:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I never remember what hth means
21:02:31 <augur> which oerjan mentioned
21:02:35 <Taneb> Vorpal, hope this helps, hth
21:02:55 <olsner> I thought it meant "happy to help"
21:05:12 <oerjan> Taneb: 1 month and 5 days from now is 2 may. 5 days and 1 month from now is 1 may.
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21:06:09 <Taneb> They aren't the same kind of month
21:06:52 <HackEgo> Today is Sweetmorn, the 13th day of Discord in the YOLD 3179
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21:15:18 <oerjan> Taneb: well of course, but that means you cannot include number of months in your differences and expect things to work out.
21:15:32 <Taneb> Unless you standardize the length of a month
21:16:04 <Taneb> A month is 30.434375 days
21:16:20 <metasepia> A month is a unit of time, used with calendars, which was first used and invented in Mesopotamia, as a natural period related to the motion of the Moon; month and Moon are cognates.
21:16:30 <boily> a month is Mesopotamia.
21:17:28 <Taneb> Measure time in seconds, because that's the SI unit and whatnot
21:18:42 <Taneb> class Group (TG t) => Torsor t where type TG t; add :: t -> TG t -> t; sub :: t -> t -> TG t
21:20:19 <Taneb> With instances for Ptr and UTCTime
21:21:38 <Taneb> Would that be about right?
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21:26:57 <GOMADWarrior> here the interpreter in lua http://bpaste.net/show/kidIoH7vfJlDUvEXPzdd/
21:28:12 <Taneb> The language reminds me a little of ZOMBIE
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21:31:58 <oerjan> oh hm i think there may actually be a trick to the previous xkcd http://xkcd.com/1190/
21:32:07 <oerjan> i'm sure it looked differently before
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21:32:29 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, it was changing every half hour or so
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21:36:27 <tswett> Imo iirc it's "this" hth.
21:38:18 <tswett> GOMADWarrior: hm. The keywords sound entertaining.
21:39:08 <tswett> I'd say yeah, go ahead.
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22:55:36 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: where has the guy gone :(
22:55:46 <Arc_Koen> there was also a girl much earlier
22:56:07 <Arc_Koen> mouseover text is still "wait for it" though
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22:56:26 <oerjan> um the point is it changes, because it's about time. hth.
22:57:01 <kmc> http://xkcd.aubronwood.com/
22:57:24 <Arc_Koen> oh, I missed the very ebginning
22:57:52 <kmc> i still think the last frame will be goatse
22:58:02 <kmc> think / hope
22:59:53 <Arc_Koen> it's started zooming out, apparently
23:00:04 <Arc_Koen> I'm guessing we're gonna see the whole planet earth after a while
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23:05:00 <fizzie> Ooh, that link is much fancier than the explainxkcd list I've used.
23:05:55 <fizzie> (They just have a list of links.)
23:06:55 * Lymia sits on fizzie's lap
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23:12:28 <fizzie> Well, that was apropos nothing.
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23:13:16 <fizzie> (Or is there an "of" in that idiom?)
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23:13:43 <olsner> fizzie: if you're lucky, Lymia might be harmless
23:14:25 <fizzie> That sounds unlikely. Or am I thinking of Lamia?
23:14:48 <olsner> I have no idea what you're thinking of
23:15:35 <olsner> re apropos, I think it's used on its own like that
23:20:34 <olsner> apparently you can use it as an adjective too, as "that was not very apropos" or "that was malapropos"
23:20:40 <fizzie> Yes, I agree in the general case, but Wiktionary seems to suggest that "apropos of nothing" is a phrase: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apropos_of_nothing
23:21:36 <Lymia> Why would that be?
23:22:16 <olsner> The Apropos of Nothing
23:23:27 <fizzie> The +3 Apropos of Nothing.
23:24:57 <Arc_Koen> common guys there was a fancy accent on the a :(
23:25:16 <Fiora> Lymia: they must be jealous of your jousting skills :p
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23:25:29 <Lymia> Lymia's not that good~
23:25:33 <olsner> Arc_Koen: I doubt there is one in English
23:26:56 <olsner> looks like english is lacking the noun form of apropos
23:28:47 <Arc_Koen> in french "à propos" are two words
23:33:49 <Sgeo> Going to write a bit of Haskell code inspired by something I saw in Spring
23:34:06 <tswett> http://ducklingsinbowls.tumblr.com/
23:34:08 <Sgeo> It's probably useless but frustratingly close to something that already exists
23:34:26 <tswett> Much Apropos About Nothing.
23:35:19 <Sgeo> I get to do real work tomorrow! Probably!
23:35:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's probably a cofree comonad hth
23:36:03 <tswett> Cool. What sort of work?
23:36:24 <Sgeo> Probably looking at code, don't know if I'll be given any tasks that involve changing it
23:37:37 <Sgeo> I want to write foo :: String -> Int -> IO (), and then magic foo will see that I'm asking for a String and an Int, and do IO stuff to get a String and an Int
23:37:48 <Sgeo> I know the basic approach I'm going to take, I think
23:38:01 <tswett> Hey, can someone create an algorithm that implements this behavior? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fCzWBbXgNttQEcw07d5-fwMB0cv9SFRClsi_fhId4NU/edit?usp=sharing thx
23:39:13 <elliott> Sgeo: class Magic a where magic :: a -> IO (); class Obtain a where obtain :: IO a; instance Magic (IO a) where magic = void; instance (Obtain a, Magic r) => Magic (a -> r) where magic f = obtain >>= magic . f?
23:39:55 * Sgeo was kind of hoping to work it out himself. Although didn't quite look at what you did yet
23:40:08 <tswett> "If there exists a set of bricks such that for each brick in the set, the brick directly below it (if any) is either in the set, or slated to move forward; there does not exist a brick in the set that presses a brick that is neither in the set nor slated to move forward; and every brick in the set is pushable forward, then all bricks in all such sets are slated for movement forward."
23:40:12 <tswett> My, what an excellent sentence.
23:40:29 <Sgeo> The Magic (IO a) should have magic = id I think
23:40:40 <Sgeo> Oh, only if magic :: a -> IO a
23:41:00 <elliott> you need a type family / fundep if you want to preserve the result type
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23:42:05 <GOMADWarrior> is there a language where you can define all the reserved keywords?
23:42:28 <Sgeo> There are languages with no reserved keywords
23:43:34 <oerjan> GOMADWarrior: istr scheme has no reserved keywords
23:44:00 <Sgeo> I think special forms count as reserved keywords
23:44:01 <oerjan> although you may have trouble replacing all of them
23:44:13 <Sgeo> Tcl has no reserved keywords
23:44:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: you can redefine them
23:44:35 <oerjan> and defining new ones is just macros
23:45:56 <oerjan> iirc you cannot rely on being able to use the original meaning of a keyword if you redefine it, though
23:45:57 <tswett> Forth has no reserved keywords.
23:46:47 <elliott> GOMADWarrior: International Standardised Technology Report Scheme
23:46:59 <elliott> it's an old language from the 70s.
23:47:23 <elliott> you can read about it in the (International Standardised Technology) Reports on the Algorithmic Language Scheme.
23:53:46 <tswett> I thought it was International Standard Technical Report.
23:54:14 <elliott> the ISTR organisation renamed to that in the 80s to modernise
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23:59:48 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's slightly difficult to redefine define-syntax, because "it is an error for a definition or a syntax definition to shadow a syntactic keyword whose meaning is needed to determine whether some form in the group of forms that contains the shadowing definition is in fact a definition"; (define define 3) is mentioned as an illegal example because of that. (But possibly you could ...
23:59:54 <fizzie> ... be clever about it.)