00:00:50 qoppa has no reserved words and no special forms 00:01:47 fizzie: i recall my impression of that was that it prevented you from redefining define-syntax as another macro, but not as an ordinary function... 00:02:46 oerjan: Right. In any case, it's a kind of a restriction. 00:02:56 and only one thing in the default environment that's special, the rest of the default env is just basic data types and IO and stuff 00:03:18 well 1-3 things depending on how you count 00:04:53 I'd guesstimate that PostScript also has no reserved words, though haven't checked. 00:07:22 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:25:54 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:31:14 hi elliott 00:31:23 did you enjoy "ur sleep" 00:31:26 no 00:31:41 did you wake up feeling horrible and also guilty 00:31:45 -!- variable has joined. 00:31:58 why would i 01:03:57 Hey, this theatre has a "Casting Coördinator" 01:06:52 Why does my workplace have a theater? 01:12:28 i think you're in a better position than us to answer that question 01:13:03 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:13:23 !c printf("%d", 2 * -2); 01:13:26 There's dry cleaning there, I don't know why 01:13:29 -4 01:13:31 It's kind of nice, that floor 01:13:40 And then where I work feels so... stuffy in comparison 01:13:43 Same building 01:13:46 It's kind of weird 01:14:21 Also knowing that everyone I see and meet works for the same company (kind of) 01:14:37 -!- heroux has joined. 01:15:53 in Archer the spy HQ has a secret entrance in a dry cleaner's 01:15:57 Sgeo, are you sure this isn't one of those companies you're expected to never leave 01:16:28 i think i did work experience in one of those places 01:16:47 Phantom_Hoover, I don't know what their views are on that sort of thing 01:17:11 I think most companies allow you to go home in the evenings. 01:17:46 Maybe a good rule of thumb would be that if the work day is over, you're allowed to leave. 01:17:57 Of course, but some of them give you all these nice facilities, I mean you can go home to your crummy apartment, if you feel like it. 01:18:16 Oh, I see what you meant 01:18:16 Or at least that's the gist of it I've seen,. 01:18:26 I thought you meant never leave as in, stay at the same job forever 01:18:28 Some workplaces, although I think not many, have dormitories. 01:18:36 hotel california etc. 01:18:37 I'd love a workplace with a dormitory 01:18:50 I'd love a college with a dormitory. :| 01:19:43 -!- surma has quit. 01:20:06 I'd love to have dormed in college :| 01:20:14 The college had a dorm, I just never dormed 01:20:15 :( 01:20:25 nessun' dorma 01:20:32 are dorms like halls 01:20:36 or are they weirder 01:27:23 Which is to say, I'd love to be in one of the dorms at this college. 01:28:06 Phantom_Hoover: I guess dormitories are bedrooms that do not have their own separate bathrooms and kitchens. 01:28:23 oh, so they are like halls 01:28:30 except halls are sometimes en-suite 01:29:22 how to make lazy evaluation? 01:29:34 I suppose the distinction between a dormitory and an apartment must be that renting an apartment involves renting the bathroom and kitchen in it as well. 01:30:17 GOMADWarrior: in what language? 01:30:44 i think in the US, "dorm" is a pretty general term for school-affilitaed housing 01:31:02 tswett, I think one of the dorms at my college had bedrooms that had separate bathrooms, and the other buildings didn't 01:31:08 I guess that's true. I briefly lived in a "dorm" that was actually an apartment. 01:31:11 shared bathrooms and kitchens are common but not universal 01:31:21 Or maybe it was actually an "apartment-style dormitory" or something. 01:32:01 dunno 01:33:22 we had houses, house-affiliated 'off-campus' housing, and unaffiliated 'off-campus' housing 01:33:38 and 'off-campus' doesn't necessarily mean anything geographically, one of them was right in the middle of campus 01:33:59 GOMADWarrior: well, "how to make lazy evaluation" is too vague a phrase to permit a meaningful answer. 01:34:04 does "houses" mean houses or does it mean something else 01:34:06 Why do you want to make lazy evaluation? 01:34:11 the rooms ranged from private bedroom with private bathroom, to three people in a bedroom with shared bathroom 01:34:28 shachaf: else 01:34:35 i'm reading the wiki, it says Lazy is unimplemented 01:34:44 I was wondering if it'd be hard to implement it 01:35:06 kmc: how many gentlemen on the billiard-table 01:35:13 i... do not kno 01:35:38 GOMADWarrior: well, the specification is unfinished. 01:35:49 kmc, it's pretty much the same here, there are a bunch of residencies on campus which you stay in for first year, then after that you have to find your own accomodation, usually in university-owned housing in the surrounding towns. 01:35:49 So it's kind of impossible to implement. 01:36:26 yeah 01:36:31 that is common in the US as well 01:36:46 but its possible to just make what is specified 01:36:50 i don't quite get this special-casing of first year 01:36:59 Caltech is unusual in that non-freshmen actually want to live in the dorms, and there isn't enough space 01:37:04 Yeah, I guess so. 01:37:04 so 2nd year is the most common year off campus 01:37:24 elliott: well a) it's hard to line up an apartment if you've just moved to the city, b) it helps you meet people 01:37:42 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Euro-comic-sans.png 01:37:45 kmc: i guess 01:37:50 (b) was a really big deal for us because of the byzantine procedure for sorting frosh into houses 01:37:58 hahachaf 01:38:07 Earlier versions of Comic Sans had an eye in the Euro sign. This was later removed because "The EU was going to sue us over that."[5] 01:38:23 it mainly just seems like a whole lot of infrastructure to only be used for a single year, but of course that's from the perspective of one person 01:38:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:38:44 they don't burn down the buildings after 1 year elliott 01:38:46 they reuse them 01:39:00 elliott, when you're getting a house you generally get together with a group of 4 or 5 other people you know you can avoid strangling for the next year. 01:39:07 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:39:15 kmc: wow are these things run by hippies or what 01:39:19 kmc: oh that explains everything 01:39:23 what hippies shachaf 01:39:39 Which obviously you can't do in first year (I also completely failed to sort it out). 01:39:41 kmc: i think it would be quite cool if a university burned down its first-year accommodation every year 01:39:46 like some kind of weird fucking tradition 01:39:57 elliott: With the students inside, I hope? 01:39:58 GOMADWarrior: well, try evaluating Lazy on paper and see if you can figure out all the patterns, or something. 01:39:59 the first years symbolically get to start the fire 01:40:11 Maybe with the last-years inside. 01:40:17 and it is tradition to leave at least one personal belonging in the building at the time 01:40:19 elliott: we kind of did that 01:40:28 The bonus is that if they're inside the building, any student can be a last-year! 01:40:42 they were going to start extensive renovations after my freshman year 01:40:47 so we kind of trashed the place on the way out 01:41:03 on the last day, four houses independently decided to have huge bonfires 01:41:34 also we spent about a month constructing reinforced concrete & steel plate fortifications in one of the rooms 01:41:48 in order to have another team of students break in using power tools and see how long it took them 01:41:53 but actually that was a yearly tradition 01:42:06 that sounds much more funs than my halls 01:42:38 http://www.gdbg.org/traditional_events.shtml#hellride 01:42:58 my corridor is a quarter chinese exchange students who keep to themselves, and the rest of us basically gave up on any meaningful social interactions in the first weekend 01:44:01 http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~blacker/history/ancient/hr-96.html 01:45:10 ancient indeed 01:45:20 Phantom_Hoover: :/ 01:46:56 kmc is old 01:47:57 kmc is that true 01:48:15 which 01:54:10 fucking vim, be sure not to hit any number keys immediately before entering insert mode 01:54:42 will that actually overwrite anything or just take forever to undo 01:55:05 neither 01:55:14 it _will_ make lots of copies, however 01:55:19 if you type 6i and then insert some stuff, it will insert it 6 times 01:55:37 you don't see the copies until you complete the i command with Esc 01:56:06 and you can only undo it as a unit 01:58:59 kmc: you can do u".p 02:02:42 what is that 02:02:57 undo, then put from the last insertion register 02:03:04 ok 02:03:10 i don't know fancy vim things such as these 02:03:14 what is an insertion register 02:03:16 i just looked it up 02:03:34 it's a "last insertion" register 02:03:46 oh 02:04:37 i recalled there were registers for (several last) deleted items, so i figured there might be one for inserted as well 02:04:43 -!- DH____ has joined. 02:05:03 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:05:27 ed/vim is an esolang, discuss 02:05:36 no contest, your honor 02:09:52 oh another method which frequently works is to yank text across undo/redo history 02:10:33 since undo and redo only logs actual text changes, or thereabouts 02:11:20 i sometimes use this when i regret having deleted something a while ago 02:11:21 hm I suppose i might make good use of p even if i is mostly a nuisance 02:11:54 i sometimes use o or O to open many blank lines at once 02:12:53 mostly in combination with the ^V rectangle editing stuff 02:13:19 (actually ^Q on windows) 02:14:39 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:18:26 protip: xp 02:20:31 delete and paste? 02:21:06 yes, but look at what it actually does 02:21:23 > 232.0/8 02:21:24 29.0 02:21:40 > 893.0/8 02:21:42 111.625 02:22:51 kmc: it's "insert command" not "insert mode" hth 02:23:09 c.c 02:23:13 ...is probably a vim command too 02:23:39 cc is change line 02:24:04 if the . makes sense between them, i don't know 02:24:43 looks like the . cancels the c 02:25:02 vim has some weird things 02:25:10 Like ci and ca 02:25:13 . alone is repeat last command 02:25:28 ok i don't know those yet 02:26:13 Can you implement 02:26:15 "Sort a file" 02:26:16 In vim? 02:26:21 is there a RPG where you learn vim... wait, yeah there is 02:26:21 :%sort 02:26:26 (or is that, heaven forbid, a primitive) 02:26:32 Without invoking sort primitives? 02:26:43 does %sort shell out to /usr/bin/sort 02:26:51 istr it's very easy to pipe the current selection through external command 02:26:56 no. not in windows at least. 02:26:57 :%!sort does 02:27:03 :%sort is built-in 02:27:05 * Sgeo decides to troll #spring a bit 02:27:06 right 02:27:09 :%!shuf 02:27:53 :%!sort -R # as a last resort 02:28:42 Lymia: you can probably write a vim script for it 02:31:49 oh right ci/ca are c + text object selections 02:31:54 never used those afair 02:32:38 I think a language based on Java modified to work better with Spring and the bean concept would be nice. 02:32:55 As it is, JavaBeans (not so much Spring beans) break encapsulation horribly IMO 02:35:15 ooh, those text object selections could be more precise than % in many cases 02:35:45 and support many more delimiters 02:36:37 oerjan: how do you delete a ( and its matching ) plz 02:36:52 oh that 02:40:25 i still haven't found a command for that. i needed it a lot when writing my fueue programs, and i ended up just going to the ), appending a space, going to the matching (, delete, going to end of Word, delete, which depended on not having any space inside. 02:40:56 someone said there was a script for it, though. 02:41:05 You can insert some other character instead. 02:41:39 well yes, but searching to end of Word is just a single character (E) 02:42:05 while another character requires /b 02:42:10 or thereabouts 02:42:19 f 02:42:36 oh i was just about to wonder if there is a shortcut 02:43:07 ooh, t is even better 02:43:24 f puts on you on the character, which is what you need for pressing x. 02:44:23 i was assuming ) but i guess ) also works 02:45:05 Oh, I see. 02:45:22 Hmm, I forgot about the deleting ) part. 02:45:52 There's a @NotNull annotation in Java 8 02:46:20 Oh, there isn't one except in 3rd party libraries 02:48:38 shachaf: oh i found something: the ]) command 02:49:29 it appears to work precisely for this 02:49:45 go to first (, x])x 02:50:00 oerjan++ 02:50:29 oerjan: what about deleting [ and matching ] ............. 02:51:05 good question, why are only () and {} supported 02:54:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Anyway, good night). 02:58:09 -!- spacew has joined. 03:01:07 oerjan: good night 03:08:07 kmc: have you considered changing your name to kmc 03:09:07 no 03:09:33 i think it may be a wise career move 03:18:41 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:45:31 JavaBeans destroy the good of Java, imo 03:46:04 (Well, not all of them. Ones that just serve as plain old data are fine by me) 03:49:44 i don't mean this as a snark but in your view, what is the good of Java? 03:49:52 also are you JavaBeaning at work? 03:55:36 I think the ability to have private implementation that can't be set willy nilly is not a bad thing 03:55:50 Also I like checked exceptions, or at least the concept, but that's not relevant 03:56:00 Spring MVC. Not as bad as JavaBeans I guess 03:56:13 Checked exceptions is only bad as part of an API... 03:56:19 wait... 03:58:36 Suppose you have a JavaBean that, in a DI style way, takes in an object that it relies on to do some service 03:58:51 * kmc supposes 03:58:57 That object would probably be passed in via a public method, setWhatever() 03:59:04 But now clients of that JavaBean can also use setWhatever() 04:02:00 . 04:02:13 i see 04:02:42 i would say solve this with Moar Abstraction 04:02:59 a FooBean is constructed from a FooBeanConfiguration object which you can setWhatever on 04:03:06 but the FooBean itself will only use that at construction time 04:03:17 i believe this is a common pattern in java although i forgot its Official Pattern Name 04:03:43 Factory pattern? 04:05:06 Or is that something else 04:06:02 related 04:06:31 -!- lahwran has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:06:59 Sgeo: What's the Ada solution to this problem? 04:07:55 Don't design major specs that ignore features and design of the language and replace those with complexity? 04:08:39 -!- lahwran- has joined. 04:11:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:11:13 fuck, if I say "AES-NI instructions" then nerds are going to make fun of me for 'redundant acronym' 04:11:37 * Fiora looks in, sees SSE 04:11:37 because when I read "AES-NI" i totally spell it out in my head as "Advanced Encryption Standard -- New Instructions" 04:11:45 hi Fiora 04:11:52 i'm going to put some AES-NI example programs on GitHub soon 04:11:54 very simple 04:12:04 AES AES-NI New Instructions 04:12:16 kmc: AES-NInstructions 04:12:20 maybe i'll lampshade it with a footnote 04:12:21 PNGraphics 04:12:29 ^^^ I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO YOUR PROBLEMS 04:13:53 RAID Array 04:14:40 RArrayID 04:15:00 is "ATM machine" an americanism 04:15:25 i think ATM is an americanism 04:15:43 good point 04:15:45 elsewhere they're cashpoints or bankomats or geldautomats or something 04:16:12 "kaspomat" in Hebrew. 04:16:15 i think of em as atms because internet 04:16:34 "-mat" is the best 04:16:46 Oh, apparently in Hebrew each bank calls them something else or something? 04:16:48 i guess it's from "automate"? who even cares it's awesome 04:16:48 käteisautomaatista? 04:17:10 Bike: yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat 04:17:16 these are the best 04:17:25 Bike: It's "omat", not "mat", isn't it? 04:17:34 Like "ometer". 04:17:50 kmc: I guess there's system libraries and stuff that already do the AES-NI stuff, or...? 04:17:53 I'm guess that's a similar situation to "-ology", which is actually from "logos". 04:18:12 Fiora: yeah Linux and OpenSSL already have implementations at minimum 04:18:20 "In its heyday, recipes were kept in a safe, and described how to place the food on the plate as well as how to make it." 04:18:22 System and Method to Do the AES-NI Stuff 04:18:27 -!- DH____ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:18:34 i wanted to learn how it works so I wrote simple self-contained programs and commented them better than any of the examples I could find 04:18:43 intel has a zip file with a boatload of examples but they're all big and ugly 04:19:23 Did you find any timing issues in the CPU? 04:19:55 no but did you see http://inertiawar.com/microcode/ 04:19:59 incredibly badass 04:20:11 oh, cool :o 04:20:35 apparently Intel CPUs have a hidden implementation of RSA for verifying signatures on microcode updates?? 04:20:41 "erratums", what 04:20:53 Bike: i know right, gb2latinschool 04:21:02 0x20110831 04:21:11 erratupodes 04:21:29 kmc: I remember a week or couple ago I was futzing with those other weird instructions from roughly the same time period 04:21:32 the string instructions 04:21:37 30 days have september, april, june, and november, and one time february in sweden 04:21:38 "the Intel-supplied undocumented binary blob" sweet 04:21:40 strinstructionsg 04:22:14 pcmp(e/i)str(i/m) (gosh I always have to look those names up) 04:22:34 they can do some really crazy things, internally it's basically a 256-way comparison of bytes 04:23:11 Why not scrap Java as a language and just make a language that compiles to Java with Java idioms 04:23:13 oh wow, 0x20110831, wow. 04:23:20 Have Java idioms be language-level features 04:23:28 Sgeo: The True Java 04:23:50 like, you could return a bitmask with 1s for bytes that are letters and 0s for bytes that aren't, or for the start of all instances of a word in a string or something 04:23:53 they're kind of nutty 04:24:03 Bike: man 2 reboot (on Linux), look at the MAGIC constants 04:24:14 but um, maybe if you can poke me once you get the AES-NI thing up, I haven't used those at all so it sounds really cool 04:24:48 Fiora: sure thing 04:25:25 goofy constants i'm used to, the coding of dates not so much 04:25:41 the reboot(2) constants are also dates 04:25:41 Admittedly these are quite goofy indeed. 04:27:53 also geez the cipher mode things are complicated 04:28:16 i hate computers 04:28:39 AES-NI has cipher mode things? 04:29:08 just like the different block cipher modes and implementing them I guess 04:29:28 kmc, if the data's apparently random. 04:29:29 computers are sooooo overrated 04:29:38 Can't the hash, er, be of the decryption of the main data 04:29:44 Bad language with community that has made numerous workarounds for the language's flaws, or decent language that still has some flaws but little community? 04:30:03 Lymia: what are you talking about? 04:30:06 no but did you see http://inertiawar.com/microcode/ 04:30:13 Fiora: CTR mode is pretty simple, at least 04:30:26 CBC is pretty simple too 04:30:50 ECB mode is pretty simple 04:30:50 do you think in a hundred years programming language arguments will be as quaint and obviously wrong as people arguing about sanskrit being magical or english being superior to french? that would be great 04:31:04 huh. counter mode does look really simple actually 04:31:07 is there some reason people use any of the others? 04:31:30 Fiora: The best part is that counter mode doesn't actually use a block cipher. 04:31:35 "he Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst online video game uses Blowfish in ECB mode. Before the key exchange system was cracked leading to even easier methods, cheaters repeated encrypted "monster killed" message packets, each an encrypted Blowfish block, to illegitimately gain experience points quickly." 04:31:37 It uses a hash function. 04:31:40 *the 04:33:37 ECB mode isn't a mode. 04:34:04 Fiora: some modes provide both encryption and authentication/integrity at once 04:34:15 ahh, and counter mode doesn't? 04:34:17 if you use bare CTR mode then you let an attacker flip any bit they choose in the plaintext 04:34:30 ohhhhh 04:34:32 CTR mode has advantages even if you don't care about integrity/authentication 04:34:35 so you would use CTR mode with a message authentication code, often the HMAC construction 04:34:39 Er, disadvantages. 04:35:05 but a mode like GCM or OCB gives you both encryption and integrity/authentication in a single step 04:35:16 OCB performs only slightly more block cipher operations than the unauthenticated moes 04:35:44 GCM is nastier, it has some weird polynomial math and people are arguing on Twitter today about whether it's dumb 04:35:51 But it performs them even if the authentication fails. 04:35:58 it had better! 04:36:30 Polynomial math, does it do some finite field thing? 04:36:32 do you think in a hundred years programming language arguments will be as quaint and obviously wrong as people arguing about sanskrit being magical or english being superior to french? that would be great 04:36:37 Bike: are you some kind of aim hecker 04:36:37 I remember carry-less multiplication for galois field arithmetic had something to do with GCM 04:36:38 kmc: Why? 04:36:51 well maybe it doesn't matter in this case 04:36:59 in general you want to do the same steps always to avoid timing side channels 04:37:06 Sure. 04:37:16 laziness sucks! 04:37:17 This was used as an explicit argument for doing them separately, though. 04:37:21 it'd be interesting to have a programming language where your branches have to have the same timing 04:37:25 to enforce this 04:37:33 cache attacks though too :< 04:37:39 elliott: enforce it in the type system! 04:37:45 if you want a bunch of cool crypto exercises, email sean@matasano.com 04:37:49 Fiora: no stop. you can't remind me of how security is awful 04:37:57 OK NEW PLAN: we all stop using computers for important things 04:37:58 kmc: you recruiting for them now? 04:38:01 I remember reading a wonderful paper where (before AES-NI) they avoided timing attacks in an AES implementatoin 04:38:06 by doing it entirely in registers 04:38:08 do everything in the cost-counting indexed monad! 04:38:10 because otherwise we are so fucked 04:38:15 and turning the 2^8 galois operations into 4-bit sliced operations using shuffles as lookup tables 04:38:18 um, let me find this 04:38:19 Fiora: was that the one where they stored the key in the debug registers? 04:38:26 oh that might be a different paper 04:38:32 http://shiftleft.org/papers/vector_aes/vector_aes.pdf 04:38:36 there was one that did that thing I said 04:38:44 It's an implementation of AES that uses no table lookups 04:38:49 elliott: the hell is an "aim hecker" 04:38:50 Fiora: cool! 04:38:50 and so should be immune to timing attacks of that kind? 04:39:03 Kinda less useful now I guess, but <.< 04:39:07 elliott: also you know things sucked before computers right, like the whole thing with missiles 04:39:11 `quote hecker 04:39:13 736) aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u (corruption of "aim heckler") 04:39:17 Bike: please observe ^ 04:39:54 uh what 04:39:59 oh, and the best part is it's still like 3-6 times faster than openssl 04:40:04 kmc: i don't think Bike gets it 04:40:10 there was Context 04:40:16 but I'm too lazy to find it 04:40:55 i mean obviously there are differences between languages but it seems weird to restrict that to "languages" instead of "programming systems" or something 04:40:58 maybe i'm slightly tired yes. 04:41:20 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:41:22 anyway the point is something about php 04:41:23 I maintain that I haven't peed so bad over the toilet. 04:41:47 anything you say that can be interpreted in some way as a defence of php makes you an aim hecker 04:41:50 sorry 04:41:54 kmc: the part of the paper I am wayyyy beyond understanding (and probably the interesting part) is how they turn 256-way table lookups into 16-way ones 04:42:03 your interpretation is dumb, so there. 04:42:04 but the 16-way table lookup trick is one of my favorite things 04:42:09 you don't understand 04:42:18 pshufb {16-byte table}, {data} does 16 16-way table lookups in one cycle, it's kind of amazing 04:42:19 we have to bring up aim heckers once every month or so 04:42:20 forever 04:42:36 to prove... something to the guy who started it 04:42:39 I'm part of a new, dynamic, unheckered #esoteric. I am the new generation. I am unstoppable 04:42:50 something about how we really care way too much about php sucking, etc. 04:43:26 PHP more like shitty crap doodoo that sucks 04:43:38 elliott: "the whole aim hecker thing is dumb hth" 04:43:42 no 04:43:47 the whole aim hecker thing is beautiful 04:44:08