2013-03-01: 00:09:51 -!- azaq23 has joined. 00:10:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 00:11:20 -!- azaq23 has joined. 00:11:35 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:21:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:29:26 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has joined. 00:34:20 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has changed nick to hagb4rd. 00:39:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:39:55 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:46:07 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:53:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331]). 01:02:12 `olist 01:02:16 shachaf oerjan Sgeo 01:04:35 `cat bin/emptylist 01:04:37 tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit 01:05:33 Burlew's on a roll 01:07:04 As he mentions on the front page. 01:07:49 oerjan, does CReal not count as totally ordered? 01:08:25 Sgeo: well CReal by default cuts off after 40 digits or so 01:08:37 not decidably 01:08:57 but undecidable functions on "computable" reals is fun :( 01:09:28 so by default (==) does return a result. however this result does not respect leibnitzian equality. 01:09:47 *leibnizian 01:10:06 what do you even call equality otherwise 01:10:17 "just-kind-of-saying-so equality" 01:12:34 Bike: well equivalence relations... 01:12:48 it satisfies all the axioms I think 01:12:50 boring 01:12:59 yeah it probably does but it's boring so there 01:13:05 you are also boring tho 01:13:09 :( 01:14:26 hm, having 40 digits in common is probably just bijective with N 01:15:58 `run sed -i 's/^/basename "$0"; /' bin/emptylist 01:16:02 No output. 01:16:03 `emptylist 01:16:05 emptylist 01:16:08 Oops. 01:16:09 `revert 01:16:13 Done. 01:16:34 `run sed -i 's/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/emptylist 01:16:36 `emptylist 01:16:38 No output. 01:16:39 emptylist: 01:16:46 `run sed -i 's/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/olist 01:16:50 No output. 01:16:51 `olist (Sorry!) 01:16:53 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 01:16:56 That's better. 01:17:03 it is? 01:17:05 what just happened what is happening where am i 01:17:17 elliott: Yes, I'm always confused about which list is which. 01:17:23 It's nice to have it all in one line. 01:17:42 (In particular when I /last shachaf and see a list, I want to know which one it is.) 01:17:56 Wait, did I mess it up? 01:17:58 Ugh. 01:18:16 Wait, what happened to olist? 01:18:17 looks fine to me? 01:18:24 It was meant to be an emptylist clone! 01:18:35 `cat bin/olist 01:18:37 echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; echo shachaf oerjan Sgeo 01:18:38 `run cp bin/{empty,o}list 01:18:42 No output. 01:18:53 `cat bin/olist 01:18:55 echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit 01:19:02 `run for n in shchaf oerjan Sgeo; do echo $n >> bin/olist; done 01:19:06 No output. 01:19:07 `olist 01:19:09 olist: shchaf oerjan Sgeo 01:19:12 Better. 01:19:21 tip: one of the names is wrong 01:19:27 oopse 01:19:28 protip there 01:19:39 elliott: I never know how to spell that thing anyway. 01:19:49 `run s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/* 01:19:50 bash: s/shchaf/shachaf/g: No such file or directory 01:19:54 `run sed s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/* 01:19:56 ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; 01:20:00 * shachaf sighs. 01:20:01 it's because the original is hebrew so the vowels confuse him 01:20:09 `run sed s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/olist 01:20:11 echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ oerjan \ Sgeo 01:20:16 `run sed -i s/shchaf/shachaf/g bin/olist 01:20:18 One of these days... 01:20:19 No output. 01:20:31 `run cat bin/smlist | rot13 01:20:33 No output. 01:20:40 `run echo hello | rot13 01:20:42 No output. 01:20:44 :-( 01:20:48 `run cat bin/rot13 01:20:50 echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M 01:21:01 What sort of crazy person makes a rot13 command that doesn't work on stdin? 01:21:07 `rot13 this kind 01:21:09 guvf xvaq 01:21:23 `run echo tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M > bin/r13; chmod +x bin/r13 01:21:26 No output. 01:21:27 `run cat bin/smlist | r13 01:21:29 gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ zbadl \ ryyvbgg 01:21:40 OK, how do you sed just the first line? 01:21:51 Is it just 1s/... or something? 01:22:14 `run sed '1s/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/smlist | r13 01:22:16 rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0"): "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ zbadl \ ryyvbgg 01:22:35 `run sed -i '1s/^/echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; /' bin/smlist 01:22:40 No output. 01:23:41 By the way, rot13ing to be considerate of me while messing with lists doesn't actually work. 01:23:46 I have a hilight on funpuns. 01:23:47 * shachaf sighs. 01:23:58 I hope «you know who» doesn't have a hilight on zbadl. 01:24:29 `smlist 01:24:31 smlist: shachaf monqy elliott 01:24:57 ? 01:25:00 It's not updated. 01:25:17 `which rot13 01:25:19 ​/hackenv/bin/rot13 01:25:23 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:25:29 *cough* 01:25:40 `cat bin/rot13 01:25:42 echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M 01:25:47 oh 01:26:05 pesky argument variations 01:26:21 There should be a standard for bin/ commands. 01:26:31 Such that they look at both $@ and stdin 01:27:09 Someone write a one-liner that checks if $@ is nonempty and if it is reruns $0 with $@ as stdin 01:27:20 And then put it at the beginning of everything 01:27:53 no 01:28:51 elliott: is it bad that while in backscroll i had the exact same idea as shachaf here? 01:28:59 yes 01:29:35 O KAY 01:29:52 hoerjan 01:30:08 having both r13 and rot13 is pretty silly though 01:30:41 oerjan: maybe one of them rotates 13 LEFT and the other rotates 13 RIGHT. 01:32:34 oerjan: I think I've mentioned this idea before. 01:32:35 Maybe not. 01:32:40 Anyway it's how things Should Work. 01:34:03 it should just be something that checks /proc/blah/cmdline and if stdin is closed and that's non-empty then it echos it on stdin 01:34:08 so you can do foo | ... 01:34:22 perhaps it would have been better if HackEgo used EgoBot's convention of passing the command line in stdin 01:34:36 `quine elliott 01:34:39 ​`quine elliott 01:34:54 oerjan: then you couldn't use unix stuff without `run. although you barely can anyway. 01:34:54 hackego's design has led to the most surreal design conversations, i swear 01:35:03 `quine stuff 01:35:04 no 01:35:07 no 01:35:24 elliott: `run would work like EgoBot's !sh then 01:35:27 `quine oerjan 01:35:27 quoerjan 01:35:31 quoerjan 01:36:00 `quine 01:36:01 I'm built just the way I'm meant to be, so stop trying to change who I am! 01:36:22 race condtion!!! 01:36:52 :( 01:37:00 death by race condition 01:37:06 `quine stuff 01:37:08 I'm built just the way I'm meant to be, so stop trying to change who I am! 01:37:23 imo stop botspamming the channel 01:37:30 no 01:37:35 we can't 01:37:39 cuz hackego die 01:37:46 * elliott eyes his scrollback 01:37:57 No output. 01:37:58 No output. 01:38:04 oh welcome back HackEgo 01:39:57 * oerjan rolls his eyes back 01:41:19 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 01:43:06 `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo "cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat \$(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^\`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?") > bin/quine 01:43:10 No output. 01:43:39 you ruined it :( 01:43:47 `quine No output. 01:43:50 ​`quine No output. 01:44:11 `quine foobar 01:44:11 b 01:44:14 ​`quine foobar 01:44:53 every user in the channel has to test the race condition from now on 01:45:06 `quine 01:45:07 `ugh 01:45:08 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ugh: not found 01:45:09 ​`ugh 01:45:24 elliott passed 01:45:24 thank you for demonstrating elliott 01:45:38 Jafet: hah i didn't think of that, that even works for encrypted quine 01:45:44 Was going to do that, but wanted to copy/paste a newline 01:46:49 it's lost magic though! 01:47:20 * oerjan thinks he will stay neutral on this issue 01:47:41 a good issue 01:52:21 Wait, what was the old `quine command? 01:53:05 probably the same sans the grep? 01:53:48 Ah. 01:54:29 now it's "race condition free" 01:58:39 Hmm. How to fix the race condition: Make HackEgo look for the oldest thing it hasn't replied to? 01:59:29 that has a reverse race condition 01:59:36 like 70% of the point of `quine is to have the race 01:59:40 where the two threads may not see each others' answers 01:59:58 elliott: On the other hand, if we keep tacking on "solutions" to it we'll get an esolang. 02:01:42 an esolang based entirely on misbehaving cheating quines? 02:02:22 Sgeo: I bet you can solve what ais523 said by looking through ps. 02:02:30 Bike: you can't 02:02:36 where to do actual computation you have to make the safeguards fail 02:02:38 `echo $$ 02:02:38 ais523: Shhhhh. 02:02:39 ​$$ 02:02:40 `echo $$ 02:02:42 err 02:02:44 `run echo $$ 02:02:46 `run echo $$ 02:02:52 I'm trying to design an esolang here. 02:03:12 ​$$ 02:03:17 trying to get sgeo to design an esolang here 02:03:23 -!- cantcode has quit (Quit: ragequit). 02:03:27 Sgeo is part of the design. 02:03:31 You are all part of the design. 02:03:36 Welcome... to my museum. 02:03:46 284 02:03:48 285 02:04:24 Use a file as a lock? 02:04:32 I don't really understand HackEgo that well 02:04:33 You see! 02:04:49 Do the different threads each see different environments? 02:05:05 Sgeo: that will work _so_ well with all these timeouts 02:05:47 i don't think they do any longer, something transactions? 02:05:58 they never did afaik 02:10:28 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:13:40 -!- cantcode2 has joined. 02:20:26 hmm 02:20:40 I thought I'd got the same value from two simultaneous `run echo $$ before now 02:20:49 `run ps 02:20:51 ​ PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 285 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 286 ? 00:00:00 cat 02:20:58 `run ps 02:21:00 `run ps 02:21:00 ​ PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 285 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 286 ? 00:00:00 cat 02:21:01 ​ PID TTY TIME CMD \ 280 ? 00:00:00 init \ 282 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 283 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 284 ? 00:00:00 cat 02:21:15 perhaps not, those ps runs seem to be aware of each other 02:21:20 `run pgrep ps 02:21:22 No output. 02:21:22 `run pgrep ps 02:21:23 No output. 02:21:27 no pgrep? 02:21:31 `run ps aux | grep ps 02:21:32 `run ps aux | grep ps 02:21:33 5000 282 0.0 0.2 4008 564 ? S 02:21 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'ps aux | grep ps' | cat \ 5000 285 0.0 0.5 123840 1460 ? 02:21:34 5000 282 0.0 0.2 4008 564 ? S 02:21 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'ps aux | grep ps' | cat \ 5000 285 0.0 0.5 123840 1460 ? 02:21:51 err, hmm 02:21:54 `run ps u | grep ps 02:21:56 `run ps u | grep ps 02:21:56 No output. 02:21:57 No output. 02:22:08 en_NZ? 02:22:15 Gregor: Why en_NZ? 02:22:32 pikhq: that question gets asked all the time 02:22:39 Because it's the cool place to be 02:22:39 my guess is, so people will ask the question :) 02:23:16 pikhq: Because people complained when I set it to zh_TW 02:23:16 Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 02:24:21 Smartass. 02:25:16 I like hackego being from new zealand 02:25:24 adds some international character to the channel 02:25:59 wait what does NZ even change from like AU or UK 02:26:27 INTERNATIONAL CHARACTER 02:26:37 Technically, a program could have a New Zealand-specific localization. 02:26:54 I bet 100% of programs just use en_US though. 02:28:19 Unicode needs an INTERNATIONAL CHARACTER 02:28:48 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:29:16 petition to make multiocular o the designated international character of unicode 02:29:31 how many signatures do you need for the president to do it 02:29:50 -!- wareya has joined. 02:29:51 Does Unicode have a president? 02:31:06 `quine2 equine too 02:31:06 `run quine2 | rainwords 02:31:08 ​`quine2 equine too 02:31:08 ​`run quine2 | rainwords 02:31:50 Bike: i mean obama 02:32:03 Obama is the president of Unicode? 02:32:19 The president of things which have no presidents 02:32:33 obama is just the president. 02:32:35 I thought that was me. 02:32:41 I mean we already founded the university. 02:32:46 Of dumb professor titles. 02:32:56 I didn't say he was a professor! 02:33:12 Yes but we agreed that I was the founder, which makes me president as well by ancient law. 02:33:47 I am pretty sure hope and change invalidated ancient law in 2008 02:34:46 THANKS OBAMA >:| 02:35:16 Obatman 02:40:42 $ history | tail -n 1 | cut '-d ' -f 4- 02:40:43 history | tail -n 1 | cut '-d ' -f 4- 02:40:52 I made a `quine in bash :) 02:41:11 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:41:31 btw, that quoting of '-d ' looks really wrong to me 02:41:37 although I guess -'d ' would be worse 02:41:41 (-d' ' doesn't seem wrong to me) 02:43:02 '-'d\ 02:43:28 ais523: Where's the race condition? 02:43:46 At least look in .bash_history instead of running `history` 02:43:50 Give us a chance. 02:43:53 shachaf: that wouldn't make a difference 02:43:58 or, it would 02:44:03 or, hmm 02:44:11 I thought .bash_history only updated when the shell exited 02:44:26 $ tail -n 1 .bash_history 02:44:27 history | tail -n 1 | cut '-d ' -f 4- 02:44:29 yeah 02:45:22 what's the non-word-boundary rainbow command 02:45:30 rb? 02:46:10 ais523: There's an option for it. 02:46:16 You can make it write to .bash_history on every command. 02:47:01 shopt -s histappend 02:47:15 Maybe? 02:47:20 shopt -s histappend && tail -n 1 .bash_history 02:47:38 The point is to keep the race condition around. 02:48:59 but thiw way you can get new and exciting race conditions 03:03:36 -!- abumirqaan has changed nick to muqayil. 03:03:58 quintopia: colorize 03:07:18 thx 03:07:38 `run echo "thoerjan" | colorize 03:07:41 ​thoerjan 03:09:34 Why does it make that many color codes 03:09:56 `run echo "so that zzo38 will ask lots of questions" | colorize 03:09:58 ​so that zzo38 will ask lots of questions 03:10:29 zzo38: it just fills out the line until near HackEgo's limit, i suspect only your client even sees most of them so we haven't bothered to cut them down. 03:10:57 it's a bit of a waste when the line is short originally 03:11:52 i suppose a minimum somewhere could reduce it... 03:11:53 oh does it just randomly insert color codes monte carlo style 03:12:32 it seems you could at least make it not add a color code anywhere its already put one 03:12:34 quintopia: yeah it does a shuffle of a string containing x's and C's, the x'es for original content 03:12:44 quintopia: hm i guess... 03:12:52 `cat bin/colorize 03:12:53 ​#!/bin/sh \ python -c "import random; w=raw_input(); p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)); random.shuffle(p); i=(c for c in w); print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p)" 03:14:17 oerjan: so do a /C+/C/ 03:14:38 quintopia: i'm looking up python regexp functions 03:15:45 `url bin/colorize 03:15:48 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/colorize 03:16:39 `which python 03:16:40 ​/opt/python27/bin/python 03:17:02 `which env 03:17:04 ​/usr/bin/env 03:19:16 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:19:24 `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize 03:19:31 2013-03-01 03:19:30 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize [258/258] -> "colorize" [1] 03:19:42 `run chmod a+x colorize 03:19:46 No output. 03:20:02 `run echo Test | ./colorize 03:20:04 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "./colorize", line 7, in \ p=re.subst('C+','C',p) \ AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'subst' 03:20:12 oops 03:20:44 `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize 03:20:46 2013-03-01 03:20:45 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize [256/256] -> "colorize.1" [1] 03:21:14 `run cat colorize.1 >colorize 03:21:18 No output. 03:21:20 `run echo Test | ./colorize 03:21:23 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "./colorize", line 7, in \ p=re.sub('C+','C',p) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 151, in sub \ return _compile(pattern, flags).sub(repl, string, count) \ TypeError: expected string or buffer 03:21:42 now wtf 03:22:11 does python seriously do str->int by turning it into its length? 03:22:23 i guess that's cool? 03:22:37 wat? i have no idea. 03:23:08 where did you get that idea quintopia 03:23:30 Bike: "p=re.sub('C+','C',p)" 03:23:42 where p is a string 03:23:56 that's regex substitution what does it have to do with numbers 03:24:11 the third argument is a count 03:24:18 no it isn't 03:24:27 "re.sub(pattern, repl, string, count=0, flags=0)" 03:24:47 oh 03:24:58 so what is p then 03:25:08 a string, except oerjan actually made it a list 03:25:10 i still have no idea what the error is about 03:25:18 i don't think python lists are strings 03:25:22 i could be wrong, it's been a while 03:25:24 oh duh 03:25:26 aha 03:25:53 str(['a','b']) => "['a','b']" awesome 03:26:11 how the fuck do I do this then... 03:26:29 do a join on the whole list 03:26:34 and then apply the regex 03:26:47 and then split again? how convenient. 03:26:51 nah 03:26:53 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:27:00 you can change the last to loop over chars in the string 03:27:16 or 03:27:19 fuck the regex 03:27:24 quintopia: you do it who actually know python 03:27:39 What if you wrote a python->haskell compiler first? 03:27:42 just add a flag that records whether the last element was a 'C' 03:27:54 and refuses to print a color if so 03:27:59 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 03:28:02 how about write it in haskell instead 03:28:02 quintopia: we are _way_ beyond by patience quota here. 03:28:13 we can get Bike to do it 03:28:15 how about write in haskell instead 03:28:24 we can get elliott to do it 03:28:30 Bike knows haskell 03:28:31 Wait. 03:28:32 Agda. 03:28:34 what do I know about haskell? 03:28:37 `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize 03:28:42 2013-03-01 03:28:41 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/colorize [235/235] -> "colorize.2" [1] 03:28:56 i=(c for c in w) <-- it's beautiful 03:29:02 `run cat colorize.2 >bin/colorize 03:29:06 No output. 03:29:09 python strings are not lists, but they are both iterable in the same way 03:29:15 so many functions are happy to consume either 03:29:16 haha 03:29:24 kmc: BUT NOT RE.SUB 03:29:44 `run echo Test | colorize #This is just the old one reformatted 03:29:47 ​Test 03:29:57 i wonder if python has a strfry 03:30:00 so at least that won't be lost 03:30:10 `run rm colorize* 03:30:14 No output. 03:32:20 there's random.shuffle 03:32:24 but it wants to shuffle a list in place 03:32:38 that's what colorize uses 03:32:52 `cat bin/colorize 03:32:53 ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import random \ import re \ w=raw_input() \ p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)) \ random.shuffle(p) \ i=(c for c in w) \ print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p) 03:34:27 `run echo Colorize | colorize 03:34:29 ​Colorize 03:34:44 "um cool" 03:35:01 `run cat bin/colorize | colorize 03:35:02 ​#!/usr/bin/env python 03:35:08 purty 03:36:20 `run echo "$(cat bin/colorize)" | colorize 03:36:22 ​#!/usr/bin/env python 03:36:29 `run echo "$(cat bin/colorize)" 03:36:31 ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import random \ import re \ w=raw_input() \ p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)) \ random.shuffle(p) \ i=(c for c in w) \ print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p) 03:36:36 `run sed -i '6ap=list(re.sub('C+','C',''.join(p)))' bin/colorize 03:36:40 No output. 03:36:40 `run echo $(cat bin/colorize) | colorize 03:36:43 ​ File "/hackenv/bin/colorize", line 7 \ p=list(re.sub(C+,C,.join(p))) \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax 03:36:51 oops 03:36:53 `revert 03:36:56 Done. 03:37:02 Race coerjan 03:37:06 `run sed -i "6ap=list(re.sub('C+','C',''.join(p)))" bin/colorize 03:37:11 No output. 03:37:22 `run echo Test | colorize 03:37:24 ​Test 03:37:26 yay 03:37:39 zzo38: did that have fewer color codes? 03:37:43 `run echo Colorize | colorize 03:37:45 ​Colorize 03:37:48 shachaf: i'm gonna have to remember that one 03:38:22 seems from the logs like it worked. 03:38:31 (Type coerjan?) 03:40:02 i guess by what kmc said the final list(...) is redundant 03:40:08 but never mind 03:42:34 `run echo xaCtoKniFe | colorize 03:42:36 ​xaCtoKniFe 03:43:13 Bike: Remember whom? 03:49:27 oerjan: Yes how there is only one control code for each letter 03:49:48 darn wikipedia broke wikEdDiff 03:50:10 zzo38: good 03:50:27 Who is the pope now? 03:50:40 no one 03:50:58 the conclave has not started yet 03:51:37 we are in a popeless world 03:53:04 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 03:55:12 'Today there is no Pope, head of the CIA, or Sec. of Defense. We are so, so close to living John Lennon's dream.' 03:55:17 Bike: they deleted his tweets too 03:55:19 the pope 03:55:20 no! 03:55:35 There's an archive 03:55:44 thank god 03:55:52 kmc: LSD is still illegal though 03:56:13 kmc: are they like mad at him 03:56:15 for tweeting 03:56:38 elliott: dunno 03:56:42 They write his tweets 03:56:44 Jafet: yeah last i checked 03:58:13 * Sgeo is busy downloading all the stuff from sgeo.diagonalfish.net 03:58:41 oh shit have you read growth and form too?? 03:59:04 Forbidden 03:59:05 You don't have permission to access / on this server. 03:59:07 rip sgeo.diagonalfish.net 03:59:24 I can still FTP into it 03:59:29 -!- monqy has joined. 03:59:49 get out while you still can 04:00:54 hi 04:02:34 Let's see if I can log into paranoia-live 04:06:16 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/12_30_06_device_mania.html 04:08:00 Big computer. 04:13:06 what's this from 04:13:36 kmc: how often do you check 04:13:39 do we need `lsdlist 04:13:52 i'd like to subscribe to `lsdlist on principle 04:14:06 monqy, a Paranoia session I GMed 04:14:07 http://www.creaturescaves.com/downloads.php?section=COBs&view=801 04:14:11 ^^not Paranoia 04:14:45 and what's this 04:15:00 The COBs section 04:15:15 Something I made years ago that was hosted on sgeo.diagonalfish.net 04:15:24 It's been a "lost link" for some time 04:15:26 ah are you going through your old stuff archives 04:15:37 Just today gave malkin permission to post the copy that he had to this site 04:15:38 so 04:15:42 what's happening to the diagonal fish 04:16:38 by any chance would this diagonal fish archive happen to house the fabled “atheism directory„ 04:17:04 Erm, yes. 04:17:23 :0 04:17:24 Ooh that sounds fun. 04:17:34 What is the fabled “atheism directory„? 04:18:24 i've only heard fables 04:18:48 i've only heard people fabling about the fables 04:18:55 (just now, in fact) 04:19:33 Ok. What is my math homework doing in the atheism directory? 04:19:51 I don't know! Maybe it would help if you explained what the fabled “atheism directory„ is. 04:20:10 Just my thoughts/code relating to religion 04:20:22 Code you say. 04:22:04 What are your thoughts/code relating to religion? 04:22:22 Can I just, like, upload a directory to dropbox? 04:23:39 i think so but you might have to do something special to give directory listing permissions?? or you could zip it up and upload that 04:24:46 Or shell archive it in which case it can even work with sprunge 04:27:32 In GCC does including cases with __builtin_unreachable make it not going to be worse than it ordinarily is? 04:30:31 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/atheism.zip 04:31:27 man i am so pumped for this 04:31:33 are you ready to get your folk theology deconstructed??? 04:31:34 ye 04:32:16 This is all from years ago 04:32:54 One of those was something some religious person gave me to read I think 04:35:07 supregod.pdf 04:35:39 oh that's some kabbalah shit right there son 04:36:07 I hope that it's clear that I never actually believed that, and it was just musings on various possible theologies that would make more sense. 04:36:17 yeah 04:37:27 wow there is actually code. 04:57:47 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:59:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: c-ode). 05:03:18 -!- madbr has joined. 05:04:44 I think it's possible to do a CPU that can autovectorize any loop 05:06:02 Maybe, but sometimes vectorizing by compiler would be preferable. 05:06:28 yeah it's essentially applying a vectorizing compilation on the fly 05:06:34 the concepts are the same 05:07:04 you take your 32 register RISC 05:07:10 classic design etc 05:07:33 but you have 4 or 8 or howerver many sub-cores 05:07:48 run the same operations on the 4 or 8 cores 05:08:22 I prefer "worse-is-better" design 05:08:40 if a branch goes different ways on different cores then you invalidate the results on subsequent cores 05:09:01 zzo: what's that? 05:09:24 Simplicity-the design must be simple, both in implementation and interface. It is more important for the implementation to be simple than the interface. Simplicity is the most important consideration in a design. 05:09:31 Correctness-the design must be correct in all observable aspects. It is slightly better to be simple than correct. 05:09:40 Consistency-the design must not be overly inconsistent. Consistency can be sacrificed for simplicity in some cases, but it is better to drop those parts of the design that deal with less common circumstances than to introduce either implementational complexity or inconsistency. 05:09:44 Completeness-the design must cover as many important situations as is practical. All reasonably expected cases should be covered. Completeness can be sacrificed in favor of any other quality. In fact, completeness must sacrificed whenever implementation simplicity is jeopardized. Consistency can be sacrificed to achieve completeness if simplicity is retained; especially worthless is consistency of interface. 05:09:47 That is what it is. 05:11:23 hmmmm 05:12:14 does it have C++ compiled code more or less optimally? 05:12:48 yes -> superscalar 2 issue classic risc architecture we've seen a zillion times 05:12:48 the defining question of our times 05:13:58 no the user can use intrinsics or de-aliasing keywords -> SIMD of some kind 05:14:18 essentially that's what a GPU is, for instance 05:14:40 VLIW of some kind optimized for max throughput 05:14:51 see also: Cell, Larrabbee 05:15:59 no the user will write custom assembly -> DSP of some kind with SIMD 05:16:11 (even more throughput-oriented architecture) 05:22:35 kinda wonder how easily LLVM can 05:22:40 (1) unroll loops 05:22:56 (2) guess which pointers can't alias which others 05:23:37 GPUs aren't particularly VLIW, rather they have different sorts of memory which each have different aliasing behaviour 05:23:43 across threads 05:23:47 if (1) is easy then any loop can be unrolled N times (first step to the kind of auto-vectorization I'm thinking about) 05:24:08 ais: oh 05:25:29 once you have your loop unrolled, say, 4 times, you can try to reorder the instructions to put each set of 4 identical operations together 05:25:38 this is where (2) comes in 05:26:02 if LLVM's alias analysis fails (ie it finds two pointers can alias) 05:26:39 then it can't reorder the memory operations and you'll never be able to combine your sets of 4x identical operations together 05:27:10 (because you'd have to violate memory operation ordering constraints) 05:28:19 however if it passes then you can vectorize any operation 05:28:49 though you'll need special versions of the opcodes that can feedback operands from unit to unit 05:32:10 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:35:26 I guess for DSP and gfx processing loops 05:35:36 your looping condition is going to be N iterations 05:35:41 so that's easy to unroll 05:36:14 the problem with DSP is that while it usually writes in 1 place, it normally reads all over the place 05:36:28 (look up tables, sample data...) 05:38:45 I think LLVM doesn't always need to guess since you can specify explicitly some ways too. 05:38:59 Such as the restrict command and the !tbaa command. 05:43:24 "‘llvm.loop.parallel‘ Metadata" 05:46:45 O, yes, there is that, too! 05:52:43 But LLVM doesn't have a command to change the number of bits in one byte. 05:56:29 what's the interest of doing that? 05:56:49 making the KillComp 9007 a reality 05:58:08 There are computers and virtual machines with different number of bits in one byte. 06:00:19 I've heard of 9, 12 and 36 bit words yes 06:00:51 Yes I mean things such as that 06:01:20 But I also mean including 4-bits and 32-bits and whatever else there might be. 06:01:51 Doesn't CHAR_BIT have to be at least 8? 06:03:14 yeah, it's 8 as a minimum 06:03:15 Bike: In C it must be at least 8 bits. 06:03:16 but can be higher 06:03:19 I think it does in C, and probably should in LLVM too except in cases where the module contains a command explicitly saying otherwise. 06:03:21 In POSIX it must be exactly 8 bits. 06:03:40 weird 06:04:26 In many cases you wouldn't care about POSIX though. 06:04:57 LLVM also dosen't have attributes to indicate commutative and associative function parameters, but maybe it should have 06:05:07 Since it might be useful for some kind of optimizations. 06:07:55 I think it can flag some opcodes as commutative 06:08:16 so actually if it inlines your function it might do that to your additions 06:11:37 Yes I have looked at the source-codes it seems like it does that, but it doesn't mean you can specify that your own function has that property in other cases too (including external functions). 06:14:19 I don't think it's really much of an important avenue for optim 06:15:12 it is if you're doing mapreduce or something, but then why are you doing llvm? 06:17:23 I suppose it is because they don't have other ones. 06:18:00 LLVM also doesn't compile into many targets which GCC supports. 06:19:21 Such as MMIX and ARM2 and so on, so LLVM programs are not as portable as GCC, for now. 06:19:51 Neither LLVM nor GCC supports Z-machine or Glulx, though, as far as I can see. 06:19:58 Shame. 06:21:08 Do either of them compile to naval automatic differential analyzers, for use in aiming cannons? 06:25:17 llvm supports later ARMs no? 06:25:39 Yes LLVM does support later ARMs but not all the old ones too like GCC supports even ARM1 06:26:05 And there are computers other than ARM. 06:26:05 Do you have old ARM machines you need to support? 06:26:47 Yes (mainly due to patent issues). 06:27:47 so, how's the dsp unit design going 06:29:32 Well, I don't actually have the equipment yet but mostly I just think about it, I have various papers I have written ideas on 06:29:56 However mostly now I am working on VGMCK. 06:31:27 (At this time, I am adding support for OPLL, although I eventually intend to have all of them, as well as other additional features.) 06:33:09 anything seem particularly promising? 06:34:25 I don't know yet. 06:35:00 Therefore, I must learn. But I am not working on hardware right now since I have other things to do. 06:38:14 I think I may be evil 06:38:18 I'm back in norn torture mode 06:38:43 no sgeo! resist!!!!! 06:39:15 Actually, it's someone else's norn 06:39:26 I gave them the genetics, but he's observing what the norn is doing 06:39:41 So, kind of out of my hands, unless I scream "PUT THE POOR NORN OUT OF ITS MISERY" 06:40:03 wow so you're a second-degree sociopath 06:40:23 Although actually he's mind controlling the norn to get him to eat, so that's a thing. 06:40:39 monster 06:40:57 It's good. The condition the norn has makes the norn unwilling to eat food after he's eaten food a few times. 06:41:06 Or, well, unwilling to do anything after doing that thing a few times. 06:42:43 Hm, how'd you manage that? 06:42:52 There's a chemical called Punishment 06:43:04 I added a gene that makes sure the norn is always filled with Punishment 06:43:43 Oh. 06:45:54 "post mind-control + tickling, he seems to eat when prompted" 07:00:44 someone give me a backtick plox 07:01:14 ` 07:01:15 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 07:01:16 0060 ` GRAVE ACCENT 07:01:46 thanks bike 07:02:13 `run touch bin/$(echo) 07:02:14 No output. 07:02:18 ` 07:02:19 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 07:02:22 `frink 5.5 km/h to mi/h 07:02:23 Aww. 07:02:32 ​[] 07:02:35 `run touch bin/$(echo -n) 07:02:36 No output. 07:02:40 ` 07:02:41 `frink 5.5 km/h to mi/h 07:02:41 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 07:02:48 ​[] 07:02:59 `frink km/h to mi/h 07:03:07 Error in BasicExpressionFormatter.formatEnumerating in evaluation \ Error in BasicExpressionFormatter.formatEnumerating in evaluation Range operator endpoints are conformal, but require you to specify an conformal step. 07:03:14 awesome 07:03:16 `units 07:03:45 No? ok. 07:03:47 2527 units, 72 prefixes, 56 nonlinear units \ \ You have: 07:04:29 `units '5.5 km/h' 'mi/h' 07:04:30 Unknown unit ''5.' 07:04:46 `units km/h mi/h 07:04:48 ​Definition: 1.4152697e+66 s^2 / kg^2 m^4 07:05:06 Wow. 07:05:22 -!- keb has joined. 07:05:33 -!- keb has quit (Client Quit). 07:06:55 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:10:38 -!- keb has joined. 07:10:38 -!- keb has quit (Client Quit). 07:28:17 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:40:58 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:45:05 K 07:45:07 U 07:45:41 ku 07:47:59 Grah, the Internship website I found is just for students :( 07:53:26 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:56:22 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:57:46 Trying not to flip out over an important website in the Creatures Community storing passwords in plain text. 07:59:26 flipping out is sort of a reasonable response to that 08:00:10 otoh, someone storing passwords in plain text is likely to completely miss what the fuzz is about 08:00:11 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:00:30 Apparently, they originally thought I meant in cookies 08:00:44 Although the conversation was going through an intermediary 08:03:03 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:13:30 -!- aloril has joined. 08:58:14 -!- md_5 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 08:59:38 -!- md_5 has joined. 09:11:58 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:13:28 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:14:20 VGMCK is now up to version 0.6. 09:14:36 Eventually it will come up to version 1.0 and then more after that too. 09:55:48 -!- carado has joined. 09:58:44 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:00:10 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:01:10 -!- carado has joined. 10:07:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:11:14 Someone who uses a different password for each password field would also miss what the fuzz is about. 10:20:39 -!- nooga has joined. 10:26:23 fungot, do you use different passwords and/or even change them often ? 10:26:23 c00kiemon5ter: i can't make 10:39:11 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:51:17 -!- DH____ has joined. 10:52:13 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:56:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:01:13 -!- clog has quit (Quit: ^C). 11:01:27 -!- clog has joined. 11:14:23 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:16:03 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 11:18:53 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:35:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:56:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331]). 12:01:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:05:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:05:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 12:05:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:20:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:31:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:35:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:35:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 12:35:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:38:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:44:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:48:03 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:24:36 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 13:24:47 -!- carado_ has joined. 13:26:11 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:26:36 -!- augur has joined. 13:29:49 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:34:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:34:43 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:35:26 -!- nooodl has joined. 13:49:56 `resume 13:49:59 rsum 13:57:10 i love the tiny glimpse that command gives into Sgeo's life 14:04:36 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:06:44 -!- boily has joined. 14:06:51 -!- metasepia has joined. 14:07:00 -!- hagb4rd2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:13:04 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:33:19 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 14:35:57 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 14:42:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:42:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 14:42:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:46:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:47:28 -!- lambdabot has joined. 14:50:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:54:10 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:57:03 -!- nollapiste has joined. 15:03:52 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:04:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 15:04:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:04:36 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 15:06:49 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:08:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:08:39 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 15:08:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:09:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:12:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:12:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 15:12:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:13:24 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 15:13:28 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:13:39 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Changing host). 15:13:39 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 15:16:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:21:36 That's it. I am fucking DONE with trying to get people to fix their password security 15:21:46 The admin made changes. Those changes are HORRIBLE> 15:22:13 'everyone's password must be "password", so you don't forget it' 15:23:00 Ok, not that bad 15:23:11 But it's a not-well-thought-out password reset 15:23:17 Which obliterates the original password 15:24:44 I find two-columned text oddly hard to read 15:25:24 wehuiofpawuoehfaeruitr 15:25:31 I should stop helping people 15:25:45 People do worse things than they were doing originally when they try to take my advice 15:26:32 Or maybe you're just not helping people enough 15:31:51 The website in question has gone from "There's a theoretical weakness that would make your users' lives worse if the website was hacked into." to "Now there's an actual vulnerability." 15:32:46 Tell the admin this and give him specific recommendations 15:33:22 Told the admin, but I should probably actually recommend something, rather than describing the problem 15:33:29 Only good recommendation is to use a library 15:34:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:38:53 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:38:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:39:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 15:39:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:40:54 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:41:02 -!- quintopia has joined. 15:44:38 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (*.net *.split). 15:44:39 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 15:44:39 -!- ion has quit (*.net *.split). 15:44:39 -!- iamcal_ has quit (*.net *.split). 15:45:32 -!- iamcal_ has joined. 15:45:40 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 15:45:40 -!- jix has joined. 15:45:40 -!- ion has joined. 16:12:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:32:59 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:33:38 -!- devin_ has joined. 16:33:52 -!- devin_ has left. 17:08:32 -!- nooga has joined. 17:10:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:11:30 -!- ared_ has joined. 17:12:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:14:28 -!- nollapiste has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:26:25 Sgeo: Creatures as in the Steve Grand game? 17:31:23 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:35:36 impomatic, yes 17:36:35 * impomatic tinkers with that occasionally :-) I only have Creatures 2 PC and the Gameboy version though. 17:36:45 I'm still looking for a Norn doll! 17:37:35 impomatic, well, Docking Station is free! 17:37:38 :D 17:39:40 -!- Bike has joined. 17:39:56 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:53:08 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Quit: Bye). 17:55:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:58:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:00:42 -!- ared_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:01:29 -!- ared__ has joined. 18:04:03 -!- ared_ has joined. 18:06:36 -!- ared__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:07:48 -!- nollapiste has joined. 18:08:25 -!- ared_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:09:29 do i have lambdabot messages 18:09:30 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 18:09:45 @tell Phantom_Hoover yes 18:09:45 Consider it noted. 18:10:54 long live vietnamese cuisine. 18:11:49 -!- nollapiste has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 18:13:46 -!- nollapiste has joined. 18:14:43 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:20:21 -!- ared__ has joined. 18:22:16 -!- nollapiste has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:22:38 -!- ared__ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 18:24:01 -!- nollapiste has joined. 18:28:49 -!- nollapiste has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 18:33:37 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:34:05 -!- Bike has joined. 18:41:52 -!- Bike_ has joined. 18:43:33 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:52:50 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 18:55:56 * Sgeo nostalgias at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/Pool2.JPG 19:07:28 it's like shitty minecraft 19:07:28 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:07:34 @messages 19:07:34 elliott said 57m 49s ago: yes 19:11:08 -!- nooodl has joined. 19:12:04 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:12:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:13:13 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:15:01 -!- monqy has joined. 19:25:32 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:51:43 -!- ogrom has joined. 19:52:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:56:27 -!- carado has joined. 20:19:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331]). 20:25:57 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:27:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:27:24 :t asin 20:27:27 Floating a => a -> a 20:27:57 > [asin, acos] <*> [-1, 0, 1] 20:27:59 [-1.5707963267948966,0.0,1.5707963267948966,3.141592653589793,1.57079632679... 20:28:06 > [asin, acos] <*> [-1, 0, 1] :: [Float] 20:28:09 [-1.5707964,0.0,1.5707964,3.1415927,1.5707964,0.0] 20:34:04 http://cl.ly/image/170J1K1L280j I suck at DF, therefore I started hacking it 20:35:00 WITH LISP (DIALECT) ! 20:35:23 so that I can nerd while I nerd 20:36:06 -!- augur has joined. 20:37:30 -!- augur_ has joined. 20:37:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:40:14 ~duck dwarf fortress 20:40:15 Slaves to Armok: God of Blood Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress is a part roguelike, part city-building freeware video game set in a procedurally-generated high fantasy universe in which the player takes control of a group of dwarves and attempts to construct a successful and wealthy mountainhome. 20:40:49 I'm looking at OMeta 20:42:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:42:22 yeah 20:42:27 it's fucking hard 20:43:50 ~duck ometa 20:43:51 --- No relevant information 20:43:57 ~duck fucking hard 20:43:57 --- No relevant information 20:45:22 uh 20:45:40 FreeFull: i just tried the js version and I don't understand a thing 20:46:31 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:46:56 nooga: I'm reading the dissertation 20:47:39 -!- augur has joined. 20:51:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:51:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 20:51:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:53:21 `olist 20:53:25 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 20:55:52 > [x-asin(sin x) | x <- [0 :: Float , 0.1 ..]] 20:55:54 [0.0,-7.450581e-9,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,-5.9604645e-8,5.9604645e-8,5.9604645e... 20:56:11 > [x-asin(sin x) | x <- [0 :: Float , 0.5 ..]] 20:56:13 [0.0,0.0,0.0,-1.1920929e-7,0.8584074,1.8584074,2.8584073,3.8584073,4.858407... 20:57:31 Hmmm... Core War with time travelling processes http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/martin.bodin/timecorewar.html.en 20:57:40 Sgeo: thx 20:57:45 yw 20:58:46 > [x-asin(sin x) | x <- [0 :: Float , pi/4 ..]] 20:58:48 [0.0,-5.9604645e-8,0.0,1.5707964,3.1415923,4.7123885,6.283185,6.283185,6.28... 20:58:50 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 21:06:11 oh that won't be discontinuous, but more like a sawtooth kind of thing 21:08:04 Sgeo: Thanks! 21:08:14 yw 21:25:18 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:25:56 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:26:28 -!- nooodl has joined. 21:32:19 hm seems mezzacotta also has a lovecraft style 21:32:34 fungot: are you secretly mezzacotta's scriptwriter? 21:32:34 oerjan: that would make you... perhaps if you are using. the executables it created; it was written in pl/ 1, 1 21:32:54 ^style lovecraft 21:32:55 Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) 21:33:17 fungot: explain hyperbolic geometry please 21:33:19 * boily pokes fungot 21:33:19 oerjan: it got wuss araound civil war time, when my friend had attained a size and muscular power not usually found in infants under a full year of age. his motions and even his vocal sounds showed a restraint and deliberateness highly peculiar in an infant, and no previous grave had been disturbed not many months before. on the butcher's shop of the cannibal monster committed from arkham sixteen years before; and upon being re 21:34:23 hm. looks like fungot doesn't like being poked. 21:34:24 boily: the next january gossips were mildly interested in the antiquities he knew so well. he had a characteristic way of ringing the doorbell or sounding the knocker that grew to be a rudimentary eye; whilst in lieu of stairs. the tread was heavy, deliberate tramping in the cottage, and olney heard the windows opening, first on small animals and then on human bodies shockingly obtained. there was nothing anywhere but blackness 21:35:11 maybe it's connected to that heisenbug triggered when fungot produces very long lines 21:35:12 koi{s: " the other gods, who are prone to fnord the details, and far below him on his wedding night." upon that night the wanderers left ulthar, and were impressed by a curious group of half-castes whose frequent meetings and night trips to the woods in a vague fashion; and i felt deeply moved despite my rational beliefs. wilcox, i was on the evening of july fnord, when the intrusion of a single, loosely knit nation or fnord, n 21:36:43 * boily pokes fungot without knowing the poke's velocity 21:36:44 boily: as the men passed the site of his camp. our apprehensions were over what we might find, or fail to find, and proceeded to follow their usual course. with torch flashing intermittently to save the rejected specimen, and would admit no one. i went to fnord for there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal; that all things appear as they do. i paint in the cellar laboratory when i learned that i was calmer, 21:36:51 oerjan: indeed. 21:37:32 i _think_ it has the effect of garbling the next line from the channel 21:37:42 and yours was right after mine 21:38:11 garbling with fungot can be quite the problem to debug. 21:38:12 boily: ' and is this what asks so hotly for a reckoning? suppose a man does find it now and then in public assemblies, and who find their greatest consolation in the fawning and fnord attachments of a fnord laundry worker named fnord wolejko had completely vanished from sight. the weather kept fair, and for the searchlight. we often cast a beam of light down the stygian hold. for about ten feet, he saw the hills and converse wi 21:38:15 fungot 21:38:17 oerjan: " that is ultra-violet." he looked curiously at me for a sterner and more lingering end, i saw no living thing nor any light save that of the previous summer, while the slant-eyed merchant was an agent of the darker powers, eager to aid our memory by telling us how we came there, and will be fnord at as obvious impostures, notwithstanding a general resemblance to the vocal organs of man, and had been diligently instruct 21:38:20 fungot 21:38:20 oerjan: " el coyote el fnord el fnord to?" i spoke with the leaders in the soft glow of late afternoon that i first felt the terrible fatigue and short breath which our race through the thin plateau air had fnord but the paintings and rough inscriptions on the peeling walls of most of his tales, being apparently more interested in the ancient house for hundreds of years, but which he would have shewn what he did. 21:38:29 sadly not very fungot 21:38:30 oerjan: it was young danforth who drew our notice to the curious.' when i read in these books or saw in these fields and groves was exactly what we thought we had heard since coming on the camp horror it would have been inconceivable ages ago, when the wind was friendly or adverse, it would appear; though no doubt the meteor had poisoned the soil, but it will have no powers of earth's friendly cats. he knew but a few words of e 21:38:41 doesn't seem to trigger agin 21:38:43 *again 21:39:20 well we only notice it if it garbles either the "fungot" or the nick 21:39:20 oerjan: what had happened. he did not delay the operation. nothing was emitted, and all the loathsome fnord turned from their tasks to stare seaward and cluster round the waterfront. certainly, the emotional cataclysm or revelation which could produce so radical an fnord must be much more considerable than is generally imagined. cabbalism itself, so that the earths internal heat could fnord its habitability for an indefinite pe 21:39:23 I should try to avoid quantum pokes considering the present stellar alignment. 21:40:10 are you saying that the stars are right 21:41:03 fungot: tell me more about el coyote el fnord 21:41:03 olsner: gilman sat in a row six noble forms with the aspect of that city, and the very presence of one in the afternoon i spent much time tracing the walls and bygone streets, and can't tell you, it is the fnord of 21:43:09 -!- carado_ has joined. 21:43:16 -!- carado_ has quit (Client Quit). 21:44:44 oerjan: stars are never right. order is disorder. all hail eris! 21:45:43 i'm not sure whether you are arguing for or against the great old ones returning there 21:46:03 maybe that's part of the madness. 21:47:02 I have sushi planned tonight. the great old ones, I eat them. 21:47:32 i thought sushi was more like the deep ones 21:48:10 I think sushi are the ones in slices with rice under them 21:49:10 there's many types of sushi, the defining factor is the vinegar'd sushi rice 21:49:50 isn't vinegared a word to start with 21:50:31 the rice topped with sashimi (or egg/etc) and wrapped in nori are nigirizushi 21:50:36 let's ask beauregard 21:50:38 the rolls are makizushi 21:59:06 :t (3 :+ 3) 21:59:07 Num a => Complex a 21:59:09 :t (3 :+ 3) + 3 21:59:11 RealFloat a => Complex a 21:59:12 Yeah, "sushi" is literally any dish made with sushi rice. 21:59:32 Why does it become a RealFloat rather than Num if I add an integer? 21:59:50 Actually, adding anything seems to do that 21:59:56 :t (3 :+ 3) + (3 :+ 0) 21:59:58 RealFloat a => Complex a 22:00:30 because of the Complex instance for Num 22:00:35 that's not adding an integer, btw 22:00:40 I have a telephone interview with a company that 22:00:41 "We provide deal execution software, institutional investor data, and market analytics to almost every major investment bank in the world." 22:00:55 :+ is the constructor for Complex, isn't it? 22:01:04 :t (:+) 22:01:06 iirc yes 22:01:06 a -> a -> Complex a 22:01:08 Ah, the Num instance for Complex has a RealFloat constraint 22:01:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:01:44 And the type constructor doesn't really enforce anything 22:01:51 > 'a' :+ 'b' 22:01:52 'a' :+ 'b' 22:02:52 ... Huh. 22:03:06 > "This is a" :+ "strange Complex value." 22:03:08 "This is a" :+ "strange Complex value." 22:06:08 > 1 :+ 2 + 3 :+ 4 22:06:10 Precedence parsing error 22:06:10 cannot mix `Data.Complex.:+' [infix 6] and `G... 22:07:03 Anyone ever abuse Identity monad to do <$> <*> ? 22:07:15 ? 22:07:28 Should be possible, right? 22:07:49 not sure I understand what you mean 22:07:52 > runIdentity $ (,,) <$> 1 <*> 2 <*> 3 22:07:54 No instances for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Functor.Identity.Identity a2), 22:07:54 ... 22:08:09 > runIdentity $ (,,) <$> pure 1 <*> pure 2 <*> pure 3 22:08:10 (1,2,3) 22:08:18 Ok, that's hideous 22:08:22 not sure what that buys you over saying (1,2,3)? 22:08:22 anti-golfing. 22:08:28 obviously you can do anything with the Identity monad - the big question is why you'd want to 22:08:30 or in general f <$> pure x <*> pure y --> f x y 22:08:49 pure (f x y)? 22:08:51 elliott, save parens, like a $ with more than one argument 22:09:41 identity is useful as a foundation block for monad stacks. 22:09:44 Sgeo: but you need to say pure (a b c). 22:09:55 infixl ($) works for this purpose -- f $ x $ y -- unfortunately it is not in the Haskell standard 22:12:28 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 22:18:39 > f `id` x `id` "shocking" :: Expr 22:18:41 f x "shocking" 22:22:26 :t f 22:22:27 FromExpr a => a 22:26:36 oerjan: gross 22:27:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 22:27:13 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:30:41 elliott: btw do you speak from experience when telling not to give edwardk your github account name. 22:31:18 o, cruel, bitter experience 22:31:19 what happens when you do that? 22:31:45 oerjan: that joke doesn't quite make sense if you are not in -lens but yes :P 22:32:01 olsner: i _assume_ edwardk then forks all your projects to use supergeneral CT concepts 22:32:05 no 22:32:15 edwardk's response to bug reports and feature requests generally involves giving you commit access and telling you to go for it 22:32:29 it's amazing how effective it is 22:32:30 aha 22:32:49 no wonder lens is approaching singularity 22:33:24 although the list of modules loaded by ghci when i use import Control.Lens in a program is fearsome. 22:33:37 i assume i could reduce it by importing submodules 22:34:03 *-although 22:36:42 there should be a nice way to make it so that if you have lens and some other package installed at the same time you'll get the lens magic, but so that neither library has to depend on the other 22:37:28 olsner: you can already derive lenses for types you imported from elsewhere 22:37:53 olsner: yes, i think the cabal system needs a way to do optional dependencies 22:38:09 in general, not just for lens 22:38:14 I think optional dependencies normally lead to a different kind of hell though 22:38:49 e.g. where you have to reconfigure every installed package because you realize you want lens support 22:38:50 I think I view optional dependencies as an antipattern. 22:39:38 well, optional modules which can have additional dependencies, then 22:40:41 > f x "shocking" 22:40:43 Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints: 22:40:43 (GHC.Show.Show a0) 22:40:43 ... 22:40:55 FreeFull: you need the :: Expr 22:41:12 f is too overloaded to resolve unambiguously otherwise 22:42:13 :t f 22:42:14 FromExpr a => a 22:42:23 > f x "shocking" :: Expr 22:42:25 f x "shocking" 22:42:39 hmm, can you write a generic function that is whatever djinn would generate for the type you're trying to use it as? 22:43:06 basically if you have a package that gives a type class and a package which gives an unrelated data type which could be an instance of that type class, it _should_ be possible to include the instance in one of the packages without forcing them to depend on each other 22:44:04 and there needs to be a way to make that not have the overhead of an orphan instance, too :P 22:44:56 isn't the biggest overhead with orphan instances that you have to participate in the regularly occuring debate on what to do with them? 22:45:04 MAYBE 22:45:12 * oerjan doesn't usually participate in that 22:45:49 me neither, I barely even haskell in the first place 22:46:29 oerjan: well unfortunately open world assumption makes that fundamentally unsound 22:47:11 elliott: with current haskell, yes. i'm imagining an extension that allows you to do it anyhow. 22:47:19 _without_ violating open world. 22:49:09 basically, either a module defining either the class or one of the involved types would have to contain a declaration where to look for the rest 22:49:21 *-either 22:50:31 i see 22:51:00 maybe if you write "instance Monad in Data.Pony.MonadInstance", anything trying to find an instance of Monad for ponies will import the MonadInstance module 22:53:41 but let's say Monad is a weird type class from an obscure package that few people want to use, and that this line occurs in one of the pony modules 22:56:13 hm i can see a possible problem of this leaking instances _other_ than the one you are trying to provide 22:56:22 the other direction might need something like "instance Monad for Data.Pony in Data.Pony.MonadInstance"? then the compiler knows not to do anything unless you're using types from Data.Pony, even if the Monad library contains a thousand of those instance-can-be-found-in directives 22:57:59 though I suspect something like this may end up trying to import every module that exists, exploding the compiler 23:00:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 23:01:09 ...MUST ...RESIST ...TEMPTATION 23:01:15 oerjan: is leaking instances a problem though? 23:02:23 also, what is this temptation you must resist? 23:02:36 the temptation to import every pony at once 23:03:10 olsner: the problem is that if those instances don't have similar declarations, you destroy the efficiency gain of ghc not having to consider the first ones orphans. well maybe. 23:03:25 no, the temptation to say "no it doesn't". hth. 23:04:29 hm i guess you wouldn't, actually 23:05:07 as in, it might not be a bigger problem than without the declarations, anyway 23:05:29 oh hm 23:06:02 the problem is if combining this with the cross-package optional import stuff 23:07:02 because you don't want things to change in code that doesn't mention stuff in a package dependent on whether that package is installed or not 23:07:21 it would be like orphan instances magnified 23:09:43 that is, orphan instances would become _completely_ unmaintainable if they could leak across optional dependencies. 23:09:50 i think. 23:11:59 hmm, I think it should only affect any code that imports both pony and monad, and since everyone shares the same orphan instance it should be fine? 23:12:16 or something, I'm not entirely sure what the "problem" is in the first place 23:23:45 olsner: oh hm i guess your solution does not involve any extra module... 23:25:05 wait it does 23:25:49 olsner: the problem is if Data.Pony.MonadInstance happens to either directly or indirectly export any orphan instances _other_ than the Monad Pony one. 23:26:03 then those would leak 23:26:42 hm still not sure this is worse than the current situation 23:33:53 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:34:01 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 2013-03-02: 00:02:05 -!- TheColonial has joined. 00:04:22 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:05:37 kmc, when you asked me how many interviews I had, were you counting telephone interviews? 00:05:48 Because if you were, I did have one (before I got the upcoming one today) 00:13:39 -!- nooga has joined. 00:21:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:30:55 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:36:19 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:38:24 oerjan: hi 00:38:31 um i thought i had a question 00:38:32 but i guess i don't 00:39:17 Hey kmc are you there? 00:39:26 `WELCOME TheColonial 00:39:29 THECOLONIAL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 00:39:30 yay! 00:39:38 Hello elliott :) 00:40:31 `WeLcOmE TheColonial 00:40:33 ThEcOlOnIaL: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.) 00:40:35 from me also 00:40:41 Thank you quintopia 00:40:53 do you come in a set with ThePostcolonial 00:40:54 Did we have a 00:40:55 * oerjan pats his question dissolving raygun 00:40:57 `ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ TheColonial 00:40:59 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found 00:41:02 oh no 00:41:12 I was pretty sure there was an obnocious fullwidth one 00:41:16 Bike I've never been asked before, but I'll see if I can drum something up :) 00:41:22 Lumpio-: there is 00:41:38 or is it ThePostColonial 00:41:41 i just don't know 00:41:48 Thepostcolonial 00:41:51 `rwelcome TheColonial 00:41:53 sounds like a really shitty band 00:41:54 ​TheColonial: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 00:42:15 elliott: but they're so sensitive to modern issues!! 00:42:24 Can "colonial" refer to the colon? 00:42:25 I stumbled on this channel in a rather esoteric way, how fitting. 00:42:27 welcome to the welcome bubble 00:42:47 Lumpio-: sometimes I sign in to places which chop usernames to 8chars.. I end up as "TheColon". 00:44:07 I see someone has had a fair bit of fun with the welcome script. 00:44:25 So is this place packed with PLT geeks? :) 00:45:10 do you count as a PLT geek if you can say "homotopy type theory" without stuttering 00:45:43 I believe I can, but I reckon that doesn't make me a PLT geek! 00:48:37 i can say it without stuttering, but i don't actually know what it means! 00:48:50 i thought oerjan knew everything... 00:48:51 * oerjan knows some other type theory though 00:49:32 elliott: my intuition knows everything, but it is very bad at communicating with my rational mind... 00:49:38 I actually stumbled on this channel after a Google search coughed this up http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/13.01.03 00:50:49 esoteric, where even your segfaults are turing-complete 00:50:55 who would still join this place after getting logged evidence of how terrible it is?? 00:51:12 haha! 00:51:17 Well, that says a lot about me doesn't it. 00:51:37 I'm actually interested in the discussion between kmc and shachaf 00:51:57 talking about security 00:52:48 so do you guys all spend time working on crazy languages of your own? 00:53:03 we spend roughly 0% of our time working 00:53:24 if you're looking for sitting around and complaining about things though then this is your channel 00:53:50 Just added to autojoin :D 00:54:43 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:56:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:06:53 Need to shower. Back in a few. 01:07:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:07:32 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 01:11:33 `welcome TheColonial 01:11:35 TheColonial: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:19:18 Bike: I think you have to at least know what it is. 01:19:51 it's type theory that uses homotopy 01:20:02 it's HoTT 01:20:28 I went to dolio's talk about it once. 01:20:37 http://comonad.com/reader/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/slides.pdf 01:26:14 Thank you shachaf 01:43:14 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:49:01 shachaf: do you have a second for a question? 01:49:19 help 01:49:20 Why me? 01:49:25 Just ask the channel. :-) 01:49:30 Because you incriminated yourself :D 01:49:58 I'm actually interested in a discussion between you and kmc... found it here: http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/13.01.03 01:51:54 crap.. brb :) 01:53:35 I maintain that ask your question into the abyss of #esoteric and see what happens. 01:59:34 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 02:03:01 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:07:16 -!- fftw has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:07:52 -!- fftw has joined. 02:15:42 `olist 02:15:50 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 02:16:15 oerjan: I don't see an update since Sgeo's `olist? 02:16:39 um... 02:16:48 Which you thanked him for, so presumably you've seen it? 02:17:03 maybe i'm just permanently 1 behind y'all :P 02:17:05 (Or maybe that was another cache issue?) 02:17:18 imo fix your cache 02:17:21 after his `olist i found #874, which was new to me then 02:17:36 i thought it _was_ fixed, since new ones appeared... 02:17:37 When I saw his `olist I saw 875 02:17:45 sheesh :( 02:18:28 Do what I do: Disable your cache. 02:20:02 maybe there is something weird about how giantitp.com does things 02:20:34 if i disable cache, won't everything else frequently visited load slowly 02:26:09 -!- monqy has joined. 02:29:41 -!- madbr has joined. 02:29:43 sup 02:30:10 the guy in that ARM paper said that all architectures have warts... so true 02:30:49 oerjan: By "disable cache" I mean that I do everything in Incognito Mode in Chromium. 02:30:59 So all cache/cookies/etc. is lost between sessions. 02:31:43 oh hm maybe i could visit _just_ oots in privacy mode... 02:32:02 context : I just learned that MIPS has an add opcode that causes an exception if the result overflows :O 02:32:20 * oerjan has never used that mode before, afahr 02:32:35 What browser do you use? 02:32:37 madbr: what, integer add? 02:32:39 IE 8 02:32:44 Ah, right. 02:32:56 I don't remember how it goes. 02:33:05 i recall seeing such an option 02:33:06 bike : it's just as crazy in float but yeah integer add 02:33:49 haha, what the hell? why? 02:34:10 it has a non-exception causing add too tho 02:34:11 being able to trap overflows in a language without extra overhead ,I'm guessing? 02:34:22 in x86 you'd have to do a "jo" after every single add 02:34:28 fiora : yeah but in practice there's no point 02:34:46 there's no language where that's a sensible thing to do 02:35:01 ... I thought lisp had to check for overflow on its adds? 02:35:30 sounds kinda nice for debugging too, though now there's that IOC thing 02:35:35 what, overflowing ops are automatically promoted to bignums? 02:35:51 I think so 02:35:54 um. bike would know more 02:36:09 fiora : doing a "jo" after every add is probably faster actually 02:36:12 in CL, yeah 02:36:25 I'm guessing the jo is faster if it ever actually happens 02:36:33 and slower if it doesn't? 02:36:33 yeah totally 02:36:47 unless it's using leftover silicon 02:37:07 but yeah 02:37:53 but normally if you're actually in the kind of case where it would be useful, you're probably in some non-numerical code 02:38:12 that is full of branches and memory loads 02:38:33 yeah, dropping to bignums makes everything way slow 02:39:24 yeah, just like in floating point when you have INF or NAN 02:39:36 or denormals, those are the WORST 02:39:38 I doubt CL is the only system that would want dropping to bignums to be easier, though 02:39:43 does anyone actually like denormals? 02:40:30 the stupid handling of denormals on x86 is a bad problem in sound handling code 02:40:32 that one x87 guy 02:40:47 lol kahan 02:41:41 madbr: go on? 02:42:05 it's that thing where if you end up with denormals, it gets like 100x slower, right? 02:42:05 it's like HELLO YOUR PROCESSING IS SUDDENLY HUNDREADS OF TIMES SLOWER WHOOPS YOU MISSED THE SOUNDBUFFER DEADLINE OH WELL AT LEAST YOUR RESULT IS GONNA BE REALLY ACCURANTE NO? 02:42:12 so you can practically DDOS a system 02:42:15 by feeding it bad floats 02:42:15 rigt 02:42:27 DAZ~ 02:42:34 that sounds about as hilarious an attack as redos 02:42:34 and it's really easy to get denormals in sound 02:42:46 send a sound into a reverb then send silence 02:43:13 yay your values are now decaying towards the ones that will make your cpu blow up 02:43:40 same for filters (except faster) 02:43:47 does DAZ solve that problem? 02:43:47 "Broadwell will introduce some ISA extensions: * ADOX/ADCX for arbitrary precision integer operations" 02:44:10 Jafet: yeah that looked neat 02:44:19 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:44:43 Yeah umm let's speed up addition?? 02:44:53 Jafet: it's a flag problem 02:45:14 flags registers kinda suck tbh 02:45:16 Doesn't intel already have fused multiply-add 02:45:22 flag dependencies basically forced really latency-bottlenecked situations 02:45:30 madbr: what would you prefer? 02:45:34 because the instructino you want to do overwrites the flag you needed 02:45:45 bike: no flag registers 02:45:49 so I think the BMI2 instructions (the mulx, shlx, adcx, etc) are to avoid that 02:46:12 I think ARM lets you choose whether or not to set the flags register with certain instructions, which also avoids most of the problem? 02:46:17 Ok not on integers 02:46:22 like a cmp+branch instruction for instance 02:46:33 madbr: so like you just have je x,y,address instead? 02:46:41 yeah 02:46:50 the flags here are for carry and stuff though :< 02:47:15 I don't think there's a very pretty way to multiply/add big numbers without flaggy-like things 02:47:27 for the carry bits 02:47:44 well carry lookahead seems kind of insane anyway 02:47:59 fiora: you can compare the result of the addition with the previous value (unsigned) 02:48:12 if the result is smaller, there has been an overflow 02:48:28 you could dump into double the word size, like MIPS in HI and LO 02:48:29 that's probably going to be a lot of extra instructions though... 02:48:41 and then just compare HI with zero 02:48:46 fiora: well, it's one extra jump compared to adc 02:48:54 oh geez don't make it a jump 02:49:06 that jump would be completely unpredictable ^^; 02:49:16 fiora: true, true 02:49:20 since carry bits are probably pretty random 02:49:41 I think arm64 did it with a conditional increment/add of some kind 02:49:47 like 02:50:00 I don't think arm has the issue at all though, because it has flag-setting and non-flag-setting versions of instructions 02:50:05 so it doesn't run into the same problem x86 has? 02:50:06 imo we just need a processor without arithmetic 02:50:11 obviously it's impossible to do right 02:50:25 Bike: so i finally have an excuse to link you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_triggered_architecture 02:50:37 it's an OISC with nothing but moves 02:50:38 are those still used at all? 02:50:57 i've never really thought it counted as oisc 02:51:11 add rl, al, bl 02:51:11 add rh, ah, bh 02:51:11 inc_if_smaller rh, rl, al 02:51:40 Bike: an instruction can do anything 02:51:42 ok that's one instruction longer than with adc 02:52:39 probably on ARM it'd be something like, add, add, cmp, conditional inc? 02:52:41 Jafet: machine where the one instruction runs the accumulator register as a turing machine 02:52:42 also if you add a SIMD unit later on, that's usually a good place to do 64bit math 02:52:51 fiora: arm has adc 02:53:01 oh! so just, adds + adc? 02:53:06 yeah 02:53:22 or you can do it in SIMD/NEON 02:53:32 does neon have 64-bit math like that? 02:53:33 in which case you can do it on 2 ops at the same time 02:53:50 Bike: ok but you need to make the register width large enough to fit a UTM 02:53:54 fiora: yeah, I'm not sure what use it has but yeah it has that 02:54:08 Jafet: 64 bits are enough for anybody. 02:54:13 so far I think NEON only has 64-bit execution units though so it might not be faster :< 02:54:14 (This makes the proof of turing completeness easier) 02:54:18 That's like, at least a billion machines. 02:54:33 fiora: actually it depends on the instructions 02:54:52 A sagan machines 02:54:56 fiora: on some instructions 128-bit isn't faster (floating point in particular) 02:55:11 I remember hearing even a15 still had 64-bit units but I might be totally wrong since I don't really know much about this 02:55:22 fiora: but I'm pretty sure integer addition is 128bit so you can do it in "1 cycle" 02:55:33 it doesn't have a 64-bit multiply it looks like :/ 02:55:48 ha no multiply is faster if you use smaller ops 02:55:52 dunno for the a15 02:55:57 I meant, no 64-bit datatype 02:55:59 sorry 02:56:08 but on the a8 you want to do everything in 16 bits 02:56:09 Do you know if FPGA can be used with through-hole? 02:56:21 fiora: a multiplier that large would probably never be fast 02:57:01 I think the ivy bridge 64x64->128 multiplier takes 3 cycles? 02:57:18 even the timings for 32x32 multiplication would be kinda blah 02:57:25 fiora: latency? 02:57:27 * Bike imagines a processor with Knuth automata to make multiplication O(1) 02:57:32 yeah, 1 cycle throughput 02:57:43 fiora : that sounds way too low 02:58:03 fiora : actually on recent processors, wide multiplications tend to have long latencies 02:58:17 I have no idea how they got it so fast 02:58:34 due to the short pipelines and ultra short propagation delays 02:58:56 haven't seen 2 cycle latency addition yet but I bet they'll eventually do that 02:59:16 The bulldozer is 6 cycle latency, 4 cycle inverse throughput for the same, I think, if I'm reading this right 02:59:20 (ok maybe not) 02:59:32 64x64 multiply isn't very useful 02:59:52 I think it's useful for arbitrary precision multiplies? 03:00:00 Do you know if FPGA programming software will run on a VM image which has CentOS? 03:00:13 huh. the K10 was 4/2, but the high 64 bits had an extra cycle of latency 03:00:35 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:01:15 fiora : I don't think arbitrary precision code is very useful 03:01:23 I thought that was the topic though... :< 03:01:29 since that's what the adox/adcx were for or something 03:01:39 maybe in cryptography and mathematics applications 03:02:01 but other than that, 32bits solves like everything 03:02:11 except >4gb memory 03:02:32 Multiplication is asymptotically log(n) 03:02:48 schonhage-strassen in hardware let's do it 03:03:01 You just need to use about n^2 of circuit area or something 03:03:39 I'd rather have them use more circuit area for 32bit float :D 03:04:52 32bit float isn't very useful 03:04:57 what 03:05:33 audio processing these days is essentially a mountain of 32bit float dude 03:05:41 * Fiora wants more circuit area for 16-bit int? <.< 03:05:54 what do you use 16 bit int for 03:05:54 the rest of the pipeline is only there for feeding in 32bit floats 03:06:23 Bike: it's like, a really good size for stuff where you don't need much range or precision 03:06:34 same for 3d games, they're a mountain of floats 03:06:49 fiora: why not just use 32bit registers for the 16bit ints? 03:07:04 I meant simd... 03:07:33 Why not use 64bit floats for the 32bit floats 03:08:01 jafet : that's what the fpu does (except using 80 bits) 03:08:45 I think that's only x87... 03:08:49 true 03:09:18 16 bit packed int makes sense for SIMD units yeah 03:09:33 and video game audio in particular 03:10:03 wow i wonder what madbr's day job is 03:10:05 it's super useful for image stuff, like for resizing an image with 8-bit pixels, 16-bit intermediates are sorta good enough 03:10:25 fiora : right 03:10:29 bike : :D 03:11:44 probably something incredibly cool <.< 03:12:04 whenever i think of audio processing i just think of analog ones though, which is silly 03:12:41 you mean like analog opamp based amplifiers? 03:12:52 yeah 03:13:01 That's okay, everyone knows analog sounds better 03:13:12 probably because the only digital audio things i've fucked with consciously imitated synthesizer programming 03:13:33 jafet : ahahahahahah 03:13:51 you know madbr i think jafet might be interested in your goat 03:15:47 but yeah tbh the basic audio processing is essentially emulating a digital sampler 03:16:09 it's like the perfect thing for generating audio off a CPU 03:16:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:37:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:42:03 monqy: good evening 03:49:19 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:57:16 hi shachaf 03:59:31 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 04:13:44 How difficult is it to port SDL to other computers? 04:15:39 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 04:15:43 Furthermore, how do you deal with it if some of the keys have symbols that are not available in Unicode? 04:15:43 Or even control keys that are not available in SDL? 04:15:46 -!- Bike has joined. 04:17:34 -!- TheColonial has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:37:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:40:58 -!- muqayil has changed nick to upgrayedddd. 05:03:17 -!- azaq23 has joined. 05:03:25 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 05:03:50 -!- azaq23 has joined. 05:26:49 Dear Chrome. When I google LLAP, I do not expect you to autocomplete it to llapingachos 05:27:08 Worst part is it didn't offer a link for what I originally typed 05:27:20 ooh pancakes 05:27:27 Because the autocompletion was in the address bar, not Google's decision after seeing the original 05:39:55 -!- md_5 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 05:40:53 Is it possible to change the settings to fix all of those things? 05:41:25 -!- md_5 has joined. 05:49:50 -!- md_5 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 05:51:12 -!- md_5 has joined. 06:13:34 -!- upgrayedddd has changed nick to abumirqaan. 06:19:23 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 06:22:55 why can't i find goddamn mersenne twister test vectors 06:26:14 Why do you need a mersenne twister test vectors? 06:26:22 Maybe Wikipedia has some? 06:30:22 because i have implemented mersenne twister and want to make sure i've done so correctly 06:30:46 i have found some files on the website, now to verify that they implement the version of the algorithm that i implemented 06:56:47 what'd you implement it for 06:57:05 Because fuck that law of cryptography, man. 06:57:18 Which law? 06:57:32 The one that says you shouldn't implement crypto things yourself because you'll fuck it up. 06:57:35 I don't think the law applies when you're trying to break other people's bad cryptography. 06:57:51 Ooh is that what kmc's doing? 06:58:42 Probably. 06:59:05 I guess it would fit with his usual predelictions. 06:59:21 Either that or maybe he just wanted to Mersenne it up. Nuthin wrong with that. 06:59:44 Is there any situation wher eyou want to use a mersenne twister in cryptography, anyway? 07:04:04 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 07:04:17 kind of hate the mythology around crypto 07:04:30 though hate people who do their own crypto and refuse to admit they don't know enough to more 07:04:55 Don't enough to more? 07:09:05 of course the lisper can't figure out where the parens go 07:09:12 (imagine I spat after saying "lisper". possibly before as well) 07:09:16 :( 07:09:38 I seriously can't understand you though. 07:10:06 Oh, wait. "Though, hate people who do their own crypto (and refuse to admit they don't know enough to) more" 07:10:09 I'm a genius. 07:17:48 wait wait wait Bike is a lisper? 07:18:05 yeah, elliott already drowned me in his saliva, so now I'm a ghost. 07:18:13 how could you 07:18:39 It happens when your trachea is interrupted for long periods. Sorry? 07:23:40 -!- azaq23 has joined. 07:34:41 -!- ogrom has joined. 07:36:35 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:37:44 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:43:32 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:05:48 -!- kallisti has joined. 08:05:48 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 08:05:48 -!- kallisti has joined. 08:09:09 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 08:09:15 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 08:31:29 -!- fftw has changed nick to Euphemism. 08:35:53 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:40:16 What is the resonant frequency of a magic spell to make anti-magic field in Dungeons&Dragons game? 08:40:53 11.975 MHz 08:41:02 Bike: i'm doing the puzzles where you're told to implement bad crypto and then break it 08:41:11 nice 08:41:24 if you want to do them, email sean@matasano.com 08:41:39 there's not, like, a web page about it or anything 08:41:51 you email him and he gives you some crypto puzzles 08:41:58 yeah, i saw earlier. 08:42:46 does everyone get the same ones 08:42:58 TIL that you can reconstruct the internal state of a mersenne twister from 634 consecutive outputs 08:43:06 That's the last puzzle, elliott. 08:43:10 and thus predict every output it's going to give after that 08:43:14 elliott: i think so, don't really know 08:43:40 kmc: Anything you can do with nonconsecutive (if you don't know how many times it fired between your samples)? 08:44:11 kmc: Oh, I'd heard that before. 08:44:14 well you can guess how many times 08:44:25 kmc: that's because it's not a secure PRNG, right? 08:44:25 there probably are fancy things you can do as well 08:44:27 but i don't know them 08:44:30 * shachaf should finish the last one of this set... 08:44:39 Fiora: yeah it doesn't have a great distribution either iirc 08:44:40 Fiora: i would put the causality the other direction but yes 08:44:57 Well, if the design goal had been to make it a secure PRNG, then it wouldn't have this property. 08:45:11 Causality is a lie anyway. 08:45:32 if then -> causality, nice 08:45:35 Do you know things about modal logic? 08:45:48 yeah, the authors are quite clear on the fact that it shouldn't be used for crypto as-is 08:45:51 but people do it 08:46:02 geez, really? 08:46:09 or rather, people use rand() for crypto and don't know or care what algo it is, and it's often MT 08:46:10 aren't there simpler secure PRNGs? 08:46:20 oh :< 08:46:25 rand() is the best RNG. 08:46:25 reminds me of one of knuth's exercises 08:46:25 that makes sense, just blindly using rand() 08:46:42 which was just "look up how your installation's supposed CSPRNG and be horrified" 08:46:45 wrks* 08:47:21 Also: I am aware that modal logic exists. 08:47:22 would that be /dev/urandom? 08:47:47 shachaf: i know a small bit about linear temporal logic 08:48:06 I went to a talk about model-checking once! 08:48:08 Well, twice. 08:48:36 I learned a little bit about LTL and that other one. 08:48:37 CTL? 08:48:50 But not CTL*. 08:51:50 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:56:47 what's CTL for 09:04:28 i'm not sure what security properties exactly would be meant by "secure PRNG" 09:04:46 but maybe it would be the same thing as a stream cipher 09:05:29 got to sleep though, ttyl all 09:05:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographically_secure_pseudorandom_number_generator ? 09:06:19 how about "can't use it as part of an attack" as a property :) 09:07:57 or you could just use an lcg. live fast die hard 09:08:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lcg_3d.gif ~ 09:12:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RANDU "It is widely considered to be one of the most ill-conceived random number generators designed. " 09:12:52 knuth's intro in taocp was funny 09:13:07 he started off with a generator that consisted of him throwing arbitrarily picked operations together, as an undergrad 09:13:10 "that's random right" 09:14:46 XD 09:15:18 I like that subtlety that "rand()%1000" is not actually an unbiased way to pick a number in [0,1000) 09:15:38 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:15:43 "We guarantee that each number is random individually, but we don't guarantee that more than one of them is random." 09:16:08 fiora, well, clearly you should rejigger your application to make that 1024! 09:16:31 XD 09:16:58 Bike's solution sounds good to me. 09:17:05 the other day I was using rand() to do a memory timing benchmark thing (like, relaly simple, just randomly accessing elements in a giant array and timing each one) 09:17:08 or just alter rand_max to be a power of 1000 09:17:12 so easy 09:17:20 Alternative: Generate a random number < 1000000, and then take that % 1000 09:17:23 the term is "monoidal" 09:17:36 I ran it on the hardware I was testing and it looked right, but then I ran it on my computer and it didn't seem to ever hit RAM 09:17:39 I then realized 09:17:51 on the thing I was testing, RAND_MAX was INT_MAX or so 09:17:55 and on my computer it was 65535 >.> 09:18:05 pff 09:18:08 Bike: How do you talk about unions categorically? 09:18:37 union is a morphism on Set, I suppose? 09:19:16 Morphism? 09:19:53 nanomachines? 09:19:56 When you talk about cartesian products, you say that for any two objects A and B there's an object AxB such that blah blah. 09:20:43 Is that categorical? 09:20:55 Which, the blah blah? 09:21:00 sounds pretty standard, in that i can fill in the "blah blah" 09:21:02 Most of CT sounds that way. 09:21:12 if it was category theory i wouldn't understand it, you see. 09:21:45 Well, they have certain properties such as associativity. 09:21:57 Well, the definition looks like this: 09:22:20 http://thefirstscience.org/images/Figure%20B4%20Arrow%20Theoreci%20Represnation%20of%20Product.png 09:22:30 Now we're talkin'. 09:22:44 In particular the diagram on the right. 09:23:22 Given two sets, A and B, you have a product (AxB,pi_1 : AxB -> A,pi_2 : AxB -> B) 09:23:34 I.e. the object, and an arrow from the object to each of A and B 09:23:37 So far so good? 09:23:40 (Arrow means function.) 09:23:42 sure. 09:24:15 There are lots of things that behave that way, though. 09:24:15 is this a pedagogy thing, is that why you're doing this 09:24:28 You don't want to be pedagogued? 09:24:39 Bike: shachaf just asks people questions and then fills in all the details until they know as much as him, at which point they are obligated to figure out the answer. 09:24:47 have fun learning about category theory 09:24:50 well, i do, i'd jst appreciate some warning, like elliott just gave. 09:25:03 elliott: Hey, you do it too! 09:25:05 Anyway, yes, coproduct, generalized abstract nonsense as they say. 09:25:07 I learned about all this nonsense because of you. 09:25:18 And you call the pies projections. 09:25:53 I think Bike is optimally qualified here. 09:25:57 elliott: Actually what you do is ask a question and then keep bugging me about it until I know all the details. 09:26:08 my approach is more effective I think 09:26:10 But I'm such a troglodyte I think of this in such horrible ways as tagged unions. 09:26:15 I am doomed. 09:26:27 Bike: Nothing wrong with that? 09:26:37 P. sure everything I think is wrong. 09:26:53 What do you think of monoids? 09:27:12 They're cool. 09:27:36 (psst the correct answer is easy.) 09:27:42 See? 09:28:05 Bike: What do you think of monoids? 09:28:21 You already asked that. 09:28:45 Sure, but now you know the answer. 09:29:03 I'll take it as "Bike doesn't want to learn about products". 09:29:10 Fiora wnats to learn about products? 09:30:43 It's just, it's time I should be sleeping, I'm supposed to be reading a paper about throwing things, and then suddenly question phrased in such a way that I can't tell if I'm supposed to actually explain it to someone who doesn't know. 09:30:59 Well, I actually have no idea. 09:31:19 About unions? I was guessing that they're not that useful to category theory really 09:32:26 I was thinking maybe not but surely there's a way to talk about them somehow? 09:32:30 Maybe as pullbacks? 09:33:33 that's why I guessed you wanted to talk about set unions in a category theory way, rather than try to generalize set unions appropriately as that didn't seem possible 09:35:30 Bike: Oh, is it just equalizers and coequalizers or something? 09:35:46 Hmm, no. 09:36:05 did somebody say category theory 09:36:56 no you can go back to sleep 09:37:06 :-( 09:37:16 monqy: So how do you talk about unions in a categorical way? 09:38:30 something about the colimit of some functor omega->Set????????? 09:38:59 omega? 09:38:59 i guess thats a union of infinite inclusions tho hm 09:39:08 yeah you know the ordinal number!!!! 09:39:22 we pretend it's a category by writing out all the smaller ordinals and connecting them with arrows 09:39:30 Oh. 09:42:58 Oh, it is just a coëqualizer. 09:44:01 pfff maybe 09:44:40 remember how i said i don't know ct yet!!!! 09:44:41 -!- xandgate has joined. 09:45:17 monqy: That was ages ago. 09:45:23 it's looking increasingly less likely that category theory is a thing that is knowable 09:45:35 You said you would read Mac Lane? 09:45:40 according to ncatlab you want a "coherent category", whatever that is 09:45:46 monqy: Also what's with all the question marks and exclamation marks and things? 09:45:55 an unreachable platonic ideal of unreachable platonic ideals 09:46:07 im slowly reading mac lane whenever im waiting for things to happen 09:46:16 which things 09:46:17 im hoping it seeps in before i forget it 09:46:35 Bike: A terminal object in the category of platonic ideals? 09:46:38 today i learned all about colimits and limits 09:46:41 "Unions of completely arbitrary sets make sense only in material set theory, where their existence is guaranteed by the axiom of union. In structural set theory, unions of arbitrary sets can generally be replaced by disjoint unions." yeah that would make sense 09:46:42 Or maybe in the category of cones or something. 09:46:57 monqy: Those are pretty great, right? 09:47:03 yeah, yeah, 09:47:23 too bad structuralist set theory has nothing to do with post-structuralism 09:47:39 if only we had a lacan for category theory 09:48:08 Hmm. 09:48:50 anyway unions are dumb and i'll concern myself no further with them 09:49:00 See. 09:49:07 The pullback of A -> AunionB <- B is AintersectB? 09:49:18 With the obvious functions. 09:49:33 And the pushout of A <- AintersectB -> B is AunionB? 09:52:33 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: ockeghem). 09:53:14 monqy: Categories are the dumb one. 09:53:16 Unions are good. 09:53:56 Q.when did you go off the deep end 09:54:07 “metaphorically speaking„ 09:54:49 monqy: Which end is the deep one? 09:55:03 monqy: Category theory is so pointless even mathematicians don't like it. 09:55:32 yikes!! 09:55:39 did you know the wiles proof of FLT involvted categories???? i learned this yeterday on wikipedaije 09:55:53 Involuted categories? That soudns scary. 09:56:53 Categories: Galois theoryFermat's last theorem 09:57:02 good categories 09:59:57 monqy: should i read _master and margarita_ 10:01:12 whats's that 10:01:34 a b∞k 10:01:53 alright 10:02:00 b∞ks are c∞l 10:02:05 i thought maybe you heard of it 10:03:20 i hear it's a fantastic farce mysticism romance satire 10:03:56 you're russian right 10:04:23 ¿ 10:04:52 well for the purpose of this channel 10:05:00 not "really" 10:05:16 ¿¿¿ 10:06:01 are you saying you aren't even russian……… 10:06:56 ????????????????‽ 10:07:24 p.s. what was that ctcp about 10:09:12 alt. what's this russian stuff about. why would i be russian. 10:09:21 because then you would know about this book 10:10:24 ok 10:11:28 -!- xandgate has left. 10:11:39 also lots of people are russian? 10:11:55 millions 10:12:18 so i hear 10:12:26 though i also hear lots of people aren't russian 10:12:31 can you believe it 10:12:50 not really… 10:13:13 hm 10:14:20 monqy: have you considered just becoming russian 10:16:27 i don't think it's so simple 10:22:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:26:30 https://code.google.com/p/zopfli/ 10:27:00 I don't like the types in C to have default signed/unsigned, and I think it would be better that if it is not specified, that each operation might be signed or unsigned depending on the computer and on the optimization. 10:27:08 How hard can it be to type umlauts. 10:28:00 It depends on your computer. 10:36:41 -!- ogrom has joined. 10:44:05 -!- nooga has joined. 10:45:45 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:45:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 10:45:45 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:56:37 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:57:18 -!- nooodl has joined. 10:57:21 -!- wareya has joined. 11:28:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:41:10 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:41:10 -!- carado has joined. 11:43:51 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:45:31 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:50:32 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 11:58:04 -!- aloril has joined. 12:18:06 -!- nooodl has joined. 12:23:12 eeeek 12:23:56 @hug nooga 12:23:57 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug 12:24:19 Error: Forbidden 12:24:31 :C 12:24:39 I guess you're not allowed to receive hugs. 12:24:42 Sorry. 12:24:42 `? nooga 12:24:48 nooga hate OS X. NOOGA SMASH. 12:24:54 `?hh nooga 12:24:57 noohga hahte OhS X. NOOhGA SMAhSH. 12:24:59 `run cat bin/\?* 12:25:01 ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; 12:25:06 Er 12:25:06 `run ls bin/\?* 12:25:09 bin/? \ bin/?h \ bin/?hh 12:25:14 Where's ?r ?! 12:25:56 `learn nooga hate OS X. NOOGA SMASH. Hug not allowed. 12:26:11 I knew that. 12:26:19 `?h shachaf 12:26:22 shachahf sprø sohm selleri and cosplayhs Nepeta Leijohn ohn weekends. 12:26:37 Just on weekends? 12:28:43 F 12:28:45 apparently sprø som selleri is a book about a psychologist making jokes (or whatever tuller means): http://www.pax.no/index.php?ID=Bok&counter=1103 12:29:17 @ask oerjan what is sprø som selleri 12:29:17 Consider it noted. 12:29:23 @ask oerjan (THX) 12:29:23 Consider it noted. 12:29:48 crunchy like celery 12:31:37 i hate celery 12:31:42 i hate OS X 12:32:07 oh, part of the book deals with archaic psychiatric treatments, like veal blood transfusions and scabies inplantation 12:32:11 -!- Euphemism has changed nick to fftw. 12:33:41 oh, and centrifugueing or however you say that (centrifusion?) 12:37:45 Anomaly: Uncaught exception Invalid_argument("List.combine"). Please report. 12:37:47 * elliott sigh 12:40:22 is that coq 12:41:19 yes 12:42:02 Error: Found a matching with no clauses on a term unknown to have an empty 12:42:03 inductive type. 12:42:07 coq's grammar is weird 12:45:08 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 13:35:34 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:36:41 -!- HackEgo has joined. 13:40:25 -!- mekeor has joined. 13:47:33 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 13:49:59 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:52:18 -!- carado has joined. 13:53:59 o.O 13:54:00 "In fact, when compared to Garamond, which wasnt originally designed for the screen, Comic Sans fares quite well in terms of readability." 13:54:06 (Without anti-aliasing) 13:54:10 http://kadavy.net/blog/posts/why-you-hate-comic-sans/ 13:55:00 -!- cantcode2 has quit (Quit: ragequit). 14:03:12 "Without ant-aliasing, fonts look jagged as if they were made of LEGOS." 14:03:15 i detest this man 14:15:41 That's just silly, you can do anti-aliasing with legos 14:22:18 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:30:44 -!- ogrom has joined. 14:37:17 I'm going to be AFK most of the day. 14:37:22 Heading to a friend's house. 14:47:41 Phantom_Hoover, have a Worlds mirror http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2478/67591116.png 14:48:01 is it surreally horrifying 14:48:11 No. 14:48:19 i'm inclined to disagree 14:48:36 Apparently Phantom_Hoover is scared of mirrors. 14:48:56 i'm scared of giant clinical body modification panels 14:49:46 This... reminds me of Second Life 14:49:59 Second Life doesn't have mirrors :( 14:49:59 So let me guess 14:50:06 "Club" at the bottom right is for wild deviant sex 14:50:15 And "Animal House" is also for that, except it's furries 14:50:29 my tutor is big into second life 14:50:31 it's weird 14:50:50 Actually, Worlds mirrors are portals that have horizonal flipped. 14:50:54 Those things are always weird 14:51:07 Worlds has portals. This is an awesome thing. 14:51:35 Speaking of which I was supposed to do portal rendering in webgl 14:51:57 But I got bored when I couldn't find any good scenes to try it on. You sort of need an interesting scene with enough details and texturing to make it look interesting. 14:52:01 And I suck at 3D modeling badly. 14:52:04 Also a thin transparent wall in front to prevent people from accidentally walking into the mirror and ending up upside-down. 14:52:13 Phantom_Hoover, you may now resume being terrified of Worlds mirrors. 14:53:02 something that irks me: i'm not sure all those impossible geometries you can build with portals are actually non-euclidean like everyone says 14:54:54 since their curvature is still everywhere zero 14:55:24 Here's a thing with a better body modification panel: http://25.media.tumblr.com/ea771a7c7328a138ded50bdca0fadd89/tumblr_miwphxRb4L1ruytnho1_1280.png 14:55:34 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 14:55:41 How do you define euclidean geometry again 14:55:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry#Axioms anything that satisfies these? 14:56:23 I would think so 14:56:35 The thing that's on the wall that you can partially see in the mirror reads 14:56:43 "The Gallery of Metamorphics" 14:58:26 http://virkkunen.net/b/portals.png well here's a thing that doesn't satisfy the "parallel postulate" 14:58:33 (in 2D) 14:58:49 Those two black lines should meet each other because they're not parallel, yet they never do due to those two portals. 14:58:55 Infinite lines, thatis 15:00:41 If you're in a 3d world and can see yourself because of portals, is the world still possibly Euclidean, or would it violate a postulate 15:01:08 There's a maze like that below Animal House 15:01:14 Lumpio-> How do you define euclidean geometry again 15:01:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry#Axioms anything that satisfies these? 15:01:28 yeah, but it gets more complicated once you start working with arbitrary spaces 15:01:39 Sgeo: Can you go into a portal from the back? And then emerge from the back of the other portal? 15:01:59 Phantom_Hoover: Well the first axiom is pretty solid in any dimension right? 15:02:07 The ability to draw a straight line from any point to any point 15:02:13 Lumpio-, the only thing you ever really care about is the parallel postulate 15:02:24 Lumpio-, no, although you can have back-to-back portals that work like that, I think 15:03:11 Anyways we'd have to define what happens when an infinite ray hits the back of a portal then 15:03:26 but there's also more complicated notions of 'locally euclidean' spaces and such 15:03:56 If it goes through and emerges from the back of the other portal, or magically "stops" there, in both cases you can violate the first axiom 15:04:02 i.e. the ability to draw a straight line between two points 15:04:22 and essentially in that diagram you drew, at almost all points you can take a set around them where geometry is euclidean 15:05:07 Well you didn't say locally euclidean 15:05:31 If we just take any subspace that doesn't include the portals then obviously it's euclidean because that's how we defined (assumed?) it to be when not dealing with portals 15:05:44 Lumpio-, lines that enter the back of a portal leave at the same portal, they ignore the portal 15:05:49 Portals in Worlds are one-sided 15:05:52 They go through it? 15:06:05 yes 15:06:09 As though it wasn't there 15:08:05 http://virkkunen.net/b/portals2.png here 15:08:12 The red arrow is you 15:08:23 You can see your back via the portals 15:08:29 Now try to draw a straight line from A to B 15:09:07 I can draw a line from B to A but not A to B.... how does that even make sense. 15:09:26 I think directionaless of portals confuses the lack of direction of lines 15:10:04 I'm pretty sure Euclid would be turning in his grave if we told him that a space where A to B is not the same as B to A is Euclidean 15:10:23 Sgeo, i think essentially what you have done is made it stop being a metric space 15:10:33 But of course you can construct something that's Euclidean enough even with portals 15:10:35 http://virkkunen.net/b/portals3.png 15:10:47 There. The most useless portal ever. 15:10:49 which hopelessly ruins the obvious topology 15:11:11 Disclaimer for all above: I don't know math terminology properly 15:12:26 a metric space is just one with a sufficiently sensible notion of distance between two points 15:12:26 I do think in most Worlds rooms that portals are set against walls 15:12:44 one of the conditions of sensibility is that d(a,b) = d(b,a) 15:13:44 In that maze, a one-way hallway wouldn't be made with the one-directionality of portals 15:14:03 You'd hook up portal A in room A to portal B in room B, but portal B in room B would not be hooked up to portal A 15:15:00 what do you see if you walk through a portal backwards 15:15:19 You go to where that portal is hooked up to 15:15:24 Just walking backwards into it 15:15:54 Phantom_Hoover, you should try one of the spy rooms in Worlds 15:16:12 They're worlds that are like the normal worlds, except a spy room where you can see people and they can't see you 15:16:25 Walk into the regular area and you won't be able to get back into the spy room 15:17:39 (without teleporting back in, I mean) 15:17:50 I should see if Worlds works on WINE 15:17:58 But not today. I have a friend to visit. 15:31:16 @oeis 1,23,467,9355 15:31:17 Sequence not found. 15:36:46 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:51:16 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:51:30 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:04:53 -!- Bike has joined. 17:16:21 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:18:29 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 17:19:46 -!- cantcode has joined. 17:55:34 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 18:03:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:11:49 -!- madbr has joined. 18:12:00 anyone here does verilog? 18:15:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:15:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:15:52 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:42:58 I've done some vhdl, not verilog though 18:43:20 and I think I dont remember much atm :D 18:45:05 very high drug lover 18:45:45 all i know about verilog / vhdl is the extreme level of copy-pasta 18:45:50 -!- cantcode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:46:12 yeah 18:46:20 playing around with a cpu design 18:47:18 I did a tiny bit of verilog but that was the class I dropped 18:47:38 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:48:17 trying to do something where a C compiler could vectorize more or less automatically 18:48:27 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:48:50 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:51:58 and the concept I have is what I'd call "staggered SIMD" 18:52:20 which is somewhere between standard SIMD, superscalar and out of order... 18:53:02 essentially instead of doing every SIMD slice operation on the same cycle, the first slice is done on cycle 1, second slice on cycle 2, etc... 18:53:15 so that you can do stuff like real SIMD memory loads 18:53:37 (since you do the load in unit 1 on first cycle, unit 2 on second cycle, etc...) 18:53:51 also there are special feedback registers 18:53:55 isn't that like, the same thing as a pipelined CPU? 18:54:16 yeah but it's pipelining different iterations of the same routine 18:54:37 unit 1 is running iteration 1, unit 2 is running iteration 2... 18:54:41 I thought CPUs already do that... 18:55:04 so actually it's like you're going though your loop 4 or 8 times at the same time 18:55:16 like the ARM instruction "load multiple" loads a bunch of registers (2 per cycle) from memory, and every cycle, another 2 are available for use 18:55:20 I think 18:55:22 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 18:55:38 fiora: yeah that's an example 18:56:46 you'd have to space your memory load instructions tho 18:56:47 like 18:57:02 I don't think that does anything except save code size though...? 18:57:06 suppose you're running 5 units at the same time 18:57:11 you'd have to do 18:57:19 [mem op] [alu] [alu] [alu] [alu] [mem op] [alu] [alu] [alu] [alu] [mem op] [alu] [alu] [alu] [alu] ... 18:58:16 I thought you already have to do that on in-order CPUs with multi-issue... 18:58:34 they do that yeah but it's not the same kind of multi-issue 18:58:59 * Fiora doesn't understand the idea then, sorry 18:59:06 OOO cpus fill the pipelines with different alu ops that are near by 18:59:16 hm 18:59:25 suppose you have a routine that's 18:59:36 load r1, r8 18:59:45 add r1, #14 18:59:58 I meant non-OOE things 18:59:59 shr r1, #2 19:00:09 add r1, #1 19:00:13 like the atom has dual-issue but no OOE, so you have to write instructions in a way that they can pair 19:00:17 store r1, r8 19:00:41 add r8, #4 19:01:09 jge r8, r9, loopend 19:01:12 j loop 19:01:24 and you're using 4 units 19:01:46 first cycle, units 2..4 are doing nops 19:01:57 first unit does load r1, r8 19:02:08 yeah, that looks just like a normal pipelined CPU... I'm confused 19:02:14 ok, second cycle 19:02:15 (without OOE) 19:02:24 rirst unit does add r1, #14 19:02:30 as expected 19:02:38 second unit does load r1, r8 19:02:52 but load r1, r8 has already been done... 19:03:07 yeah but they're different copies of r1, r8 19:03:28 so like, this is a special case in which you have a bunch of loop iterations which are completely independent? 19:03:29 essentially the second unit is already starting the second iteration of the loop 19:03:41 I think OOE already does that 19:03:56 like, modern CPUs with big reorder buffers can be running 15 iterations of a loop at a time 19:04:06 OOE doesn't do that, it reorders nearby instructions 19:04:15 um... that's... not quite what it does... 19:04:34 it keeps dispatching instructions until one of the queues fills, preventing it from doing so, I think 19:04:41 like, on a p2, eventually it's running multiple iterations at the same time yes 19:04:42 but 19:04:49 it does it locally really 19:04:51 so like in one bit of code I wrote I have a loop that does two loads, an average, and a store 19:05:02 this loop manages to fill the entire load queue, so that's where it stops issuing 19:05:04 like, if you had a 300 instruction routine 19:05:11 your iterations wouldn't overlap 19:05:56 but if it had 300 instructions it could probably do something else in those 300 instructions... 19:06:01 true 19:06:15 I mean, if the iterations are independent, you can just write the code a bit differently to let OOE do things better? :< 19:06:23 like, unrolling 19:06:36 unrolling isn't very beneficial in OOO 19:06:58 it helps if the loop is super gigantic and has a long dependency chain and the OOE buffer doesn't reach into the next iteration, I think? 19:06:59 SIMD (SSE, MMX, NEON, Altivec) kinda helps 19:07:05 like your 300 example... 19:07:21 but your routine has to be very paralellizable and most of the time the compiler can't guess I think 19:07:37 soooo write the simd yourself silly :P 19:07:50 on p2 unrolling only saves like the cmp and jmp 19:08:09 ... but unrolling is useful if it lets the execution unit get more parallelism... 19:08:19 yeah 19:08:31 but it's really only worth it if your loop is really small 19:08:37 like 8 instructions or less 19:08:56 but if it's like 8 instructions or less OOE can look ahead to the next iteration just fine o_O 19:09:01 so you don't need to unroll... 19:09:44 no it's like the other way around 19:09:59 in the 300 example you're less likely to get dependency chains 19:10:30 but.... you just said the iterations were independent... 19:10:33 * Fiora lost 19:11:05 like, you'll have result to result dependency chains within the routine but in fact both the compiler and the CPU can analyze that stuff and reorder everything if there aren't too many memory accesses 19:11:54 in a 8 instruction loop your writes and reads will be very close together and it will probably be hard to "prove" that the reads don't depend on the writes 19:12:21 like you didn't overlap the read and write buffer addresses on purpose 19:12:44 the cpu does speculative loads and stores though 19:12:51 and if it turns out that things did overlap it will re-issue them 19:13:13 I'd like to see how they do that :D 19:13:14 this is all far too practical 19:13:21 afaik it's freakishly complex 19:13:34 half an hour of relatively on-topic discussion and nobody's mentioned turing even once 19:13:35 What's the best way to bring a C program to a screaming halt 19:13:49 turn off the computer 19:13:51 they do it just by issuing them in advance and then going and redoing it if they were wrong XD 19:14:02 phantom : that's what you're trying to avoid 19:14:15 turing?? 19:14:20 turing is when your result influence each other tightly and you can do everything 19:14:25 not that I know, like, hardware details but 19:14:45 these machines are only pushdown automata, Phantom_Hoover `-` 19:14:47 but it breaks all optimizations since you can't reorder everything and everything has effects on everything else :D 19:15:26 jumps and memory accesses are hell 19:15:52 yay the benchmark worked 19:15:53 for( int i = 0; i < 128; i++ ) 19:15:53 sum += i * i * i * i * i * i; 19:16:11 this loop takes 770 cycles on my machine, so it's doing 1 multiply every cycle 19:16:15 they prevent the C++ optimizer from doing its job 19:16:17 but each iteration is completely latency bound 19:16:26 so it has to be looking ahead at least 6 iterations in order to get that. 19:16:38 erm, at least 3 iterations, since imul is latency 3 19:17:08 doesn't have memory loads inside the loop so the compiler can deal with it :D 19:17:18 okay, let's test that then :3 19:17:40 you can save a mul actually 19:17:59 for(int i=0; i<128; i++) 19:18:00 { 19:18:07 temp = i*i; 19:18:13 sum += i*i*i; 19:18:13 } 19:18:27 Yeah, I wasn't trying to optimize it XD 19:18:43 I think gcc can do that optim but not other compilers actually 19:18:49 madbr: er don't you need to multiply by temp 19:18:50 (automatically) 19:19:05 bike: errr, yeah, sorry there 19:19:08 my gcc does a chain of 5 imuls 19:19:08 oh, duh yeah, power decomposition 19:19:13 though it's an older one 19:19:27 my personal favorite possibly-NP-complete-but-who-knows problem 19:19:28 okies! so, second test: 19:19:30 for( int i = 0; i < 128; i++ ) 19:19:30 { 19:19:30 int in = input[i]; 19:19:30 output[i] = in*in*in*in*in*in; 19:19:32 } 19:19:37 this takes 754 cycles. 19:19:54 if it was totally latency bound it'd take at least 5*3*128 cycles. 19:20:16 { int i2 = i*i; int i4 = i2*i2; sum += i4*i2; } 19:20:21 hmm. lemme try it with random memory accesses >:3 19:21:02 madbr: quick what's the optimal chain for i^15 19:21:02 fiora : I think it's because the compiler can guess that input and output don't alias yes 19:21:42 the compiler doesn't unroll the loop though... 19:21:57 fiora: might not be worth it 19:21:59 I mean, the compiler can't like, tell the cpu that they don't alias 19:22:03 the cpu has to figure it out on its own... 19:22:22 ah, so speculative loads actually work? :D 19:22:42 afaik ARMs don't have speculative loads 19:22:48 even the OOO ones 19:23:00 okay, even better.... 19:23:05 for( int i = 0; i < 128; i++ ) 19:23:05 { 19:23:05 int off1 = randnums[i]; 19:23:05 int off2 = randnums[i+128]; 19:23:05 int in = input[off1]; 19:23:07 input[off2] = in*in*in*in*in*in; 19:23:10 } 19:23:12 this takes 782 cycles XD 19:23:21 (randums[] is an array of random numbers between 0 and 128) 19:23:55 they really missed an opportunity to name the 64-bit ARM architecture "LEG" 19:24:03 *pfffff* 19:24:11 a la Thumb 19:24:14 Best way to bring a C program to a screaming halt? volatile int x = 0; for(volatile unsigned int i = 0; i < UINT_MAX; i++) { x = time(0) + rand(); } 19:24:23 ... oh my gosh I I only just got that joke 19:24:27 I all this time 19:24:31 'thumb' 'ARM' 19:24:36 see also: ELF and DWARF 19:24:39 Remember, volatile is your friend. 19:24:54 wow . I didn't get that one either 19:25:10 acronym naming people are horrible/wonderful 19:25:14 yep 19:25:25 Microprocessor without Interlocking Pipeline Stages 19:25:29 you can't elide a "without"!! 19:25:53 I love that one, it's like, almost immediately after the original they put the interlocks back in 19:25:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:26:32 madbr: oh, so like, I made it so all the randnums were zero (so it always aliased) 19:26:35 now it takes 1981 cycles 19:26:41 ahahah right 19:26:51 if all the randnums are [0,2), it takes 1649 19:26:54 Fiora: oh, you mean to get rid of the load/store delay slots? 19:26:56 aliasing is evil 19:27:01 evil evil 19:27:04 [0,4) it's 1053 19:27:15 [0,8) it's 919 19:27:33 so basically the cpu is speculatively executing many iterations ahead, and it has to stop and wait if it turns out the loads and stores collided 19:27:34 but yeah that's impressive 19:27:34 are interlocks the same thing as bypasses 19:27:57 ummmm I was just reading about that the other day but didn't quite get it, let me see if I can find the wikipedia explantion 19:28:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_RISC_pipeline#Solution_B._Pipeline_Interlock 19:28:20 they are the same thing in... reverse............ right? 19:28:38 interlocks delay the pipeline when data isn't ready for an instruction, I think 19:28:45 mm 19:28:50 i guess not all hazards can be bypassed 19:29:53 generally if you have an ADD then a LOAD 19:30:00 that takes 2 cycles no matter what 19:30:16 ex : address calculation 19:30:22 -!- carado has joined. 19:30:31 I think like, the idea is to bypass everything you can, use delay slots where you can't (maybe), and then interlock things where you can't really or don't want to use delay slots 19:30:35 like a cache miss might be an interlock? 19:30:38 something like add rx, [ra + rd] will have 3 cycles latency on the result 19:33:12 -!- carado has quit (Client Quit). 19:35:02 -!- carado has joined. 19:35:35 I think intel actually has some performance counters for cases when speculative loads need to be cancelled because an earlier store aliased it 19:36:09 there's also a thing where a store's address is a multiple of 4K away from a load's address, they falsely alias 19:36:26 oh? 19:36:43 looks cache line based :D 19:36:48 because that's how the pseudohash for the cache table works, probably 19:37:02 I think so 19:39:35 that sucks 19:39:41 won't that happen a lot 19:39:49 if you are copying between aligned arrays 19:40:59 obviously you need to make sure that the arrays are aligned "but not too much" 19:41:04 I think it's generally good to avoid having things offset by *exactly* that multiple 19:41:17 like. don't make the stride of your array 2048 or 4096 XD 19:41:28 it will tend to produce cacheline colocations yes 19:41:37 a lot of chips really dislike that 19:41:48 there was actually an issue in the linux kernel with bulldozer, lemme see if I can find that one 19:42:07 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_bulldozer_aliasing&num=1 19:42:59 if I remember right, it has a 2-way instruction cache that's shared between two cores in a module 19:43:15 and if the kernel allocates instruction pages wrong, it can cause aliasing issues that bounce cachelines back and forth between the cores 19:43:26 since it's only 2-way 19:46:53 sucks 19:47:52 Maybe if the cache lines were aligned to some weird number like seven words this wouldn't happen! 19:47:58 there's something unsatisfying about using cache to provide the abstraction of fast large memory, and then having to think past that abstraction and understand the cache behavior in detail to get good performance 19:48:06 seems self-defeating 19:48:10 i mean it doesn't matter for most programs 19:49:21 but maybe for high performance stuff, we should just admit that our computers are distributed systems composed of lots of processors with small memories, talking to each other and to a big memory 19:49:53 I think that's sorta true of everything in computing? hardware tries to provide a system that's fast in general, but the more your code is aware of the hardware, the faster it can be? 19:50:23 true 19:50:48 but sometimes it seems that you have to be not just awer of the hardware, but actively subverting the clever things it tries to do, when they are not so clever for your use case 19:51:24 maybe if i'm writing some numerical inner loop, rather than thinking hard about automatic cache behavior, i should just tell the CPU what to cache and when 19:51:32 people already do this with prefetch instructions 19:51:44 guess that's what Checkout is for :p 19:51:50 yeah ;P 19:51:52 hardware prefetching is kinda iffy though, I think a lot of guides say not to use it except in rare cases 19:51:59 er, software prefetching 19:52:04 (because the hardware prefetching is really good) 19:52:07 well you're talking about rare cases here, aren't you 19:52:11 gcc emits it for fairly simple loops 19:52:13 I've found it really hard to make software prefetching useful 19:52:20 really o_O 19:52:33 depending on the -march setting yeah 19:53:00 so is making checkout work on a modern cpu actually possible 19:53:14 checkout? 19:53:39 @google esolang checkout 19:53:41 it's on the wiki 19:53:41 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout 19:53:41 Title: Checkout - Esolang 19:54:33 trying to remember the case i had 19:56:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:56:47 "make it fast and good generally but possible to use for specific applications" is a pretty general problem for design, i guess 19:58:05 i love how arcane the checkout spec is 19:59:16 yeah i don't even know how the hell it works 20:00:02 there are all these weird behaviours that come out of nowhere 20:00:05 should have an example bf interpreter 20:00:06 like abstain/1 20:00:41 "For each argument, create a new level 5 subunit, and execute the given code. How this command works is system-dependent." beautiful 20:01:53 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:05:47 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:05:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:06:30 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 20:12:17 @messages 20:12:17 shachaf asked 7h 43m 2s ago: what is sprø som selleri 20:12:17 shachaf asked 7h 42m 56s ago: (THX) 20:12:40 crunchy, like celery. 20:13:02 that's the literal meaning. 20:13:25 <3 ctypes 20:13:42 i wanted to test my Python Mersenne Twister against the reference C code 20:13:47 and ctypes made this very easy 20:14:37 it lets you import any .so as a Python module basically 20:18:19 just dumps the symbol table as the list of module properties? 20:18:53 basically 20:19:04 or does dlsym() dynamically on access 20:19:05 don't know which 20:20:15 Bike: How do you talk about unions categorically? 20:20:29 oh shachaf isn't here 20:20:31 hi 20:20:39 oh well 20:20:56 @tell shachaf crunchy, like celery. 20:20:56 Consider it noted. 20:21:07 _disjoint_ union is coproduct, afair. 20:21:24 yeah but he meant not-necessarily-disjoint union. 20:21:26 ordinary union might be a pullback or pushout? 20:21:41 yeah he went through all that too 20:21:41 pushout i guess 20:21:44 oh 20:21:44 you have to specify argument / return types yourself, naturally 20:21:54 -> 20:21:56 but for small things that's no great hardship 20:21:57 naturally. 20:22:10 and the alternative (parsing C header files?) would be cumbersome for small things 20:22:12 and it coerces tuples to arrays or whatever? 20:22:23 something like 20:22:32 it gives you helper functions to construct mutable arrays and such 20:22:38 http://docs.python.org/2/library/ctypes.html 20:22:46 it's definitely easy to screw up using it because... it's C 20:23:09 but that seems more or less unavoidable 20:24:09 like it's probably not the right answer for binding to a huge library with hundreds of functions and structs and whatever 20:24:32 «Sometimes, dlls export functions with names which aren’t valid Python identifiers, like "??2@YAPAXI@Z".» dig at c++? dig at c++ 20:24:45 hehe 20:24:49 yeah i don't even know 20:29:20 "ctypes tries to protect you from calling functions with the wrong number of arguments or the wrong calling convention. Unfortunately this only works on Windows. It does this by examining the stack after the function returns, so although an error is raised the function has been called" uh 20:29:38 "There are, however, enough ways to crash Python with ctypes, so you should be careful anyway." 20:42:00 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has joined. 20:42:16 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has changed nick to hagb4rd. 20:45:53 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:48:26 @messages 20:48:26 oerjan said 27m 31s ago: crunchy, like celery. 20:48:31 oerjan: I understood that much. 20:53:12 06:53:14 something that irks me: i'm not sure all those impossible geometries you can build with portals are actually non-euclidean like everyone says 20:53:15 06:55:06 since their curvature is still everywhere zero 20:53:28 i do not think "euclidean geometry" applies to everything with zero curvature. 20:54:12 euclidean geometry basically means your space is a vector space 20:57:08 euclidean geometry also has the property that (1) it looks the same everywhere (2) has trivial fundamental group. 20:58:07 I think the difference is thas in a portal based one the non-euclidianity is concentrated in the portal junctions, where in other ones the non-euclidianity is spread over evenly (giving curvature) 20:58:43 so your crazy portal space isn't non-euclidian locally, but globally it is 20:58:46 or something like that 20:58:52 without (2) you can get things like befunge-like wrapping. without (1) you can probably get even more complicated things. 20:59:06 madbr: the befunge-like wrapping has no junctions. 20:59:17 (it's a flat torus) 21:00:15 hm it might be that (2) implies (1). 21:00:53 or put differently, any space with zero curvature has euclidean space as its universal covering space. 21:01:13 -!- mekeor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:01:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:01:24 _maybe_. i don't actually know this. 21:01:31 dunno 21:01:38 tbh I'm totally out of my depth here 21:01:51 ok 21:02:47 wonder if hyperbolic befunge is possible 21:04:57 you'd probably base it on one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_tilings_in_hyperbolic_plane 21:06:19 isn't there already a space-ish language that works on R^2 that would probably be pretty easy to generalize to arbitrary manifolds 21:09:31 although it's not clear to me from those kind of pictures whether the graph of connections for these tilings are really different from what you can get on a euclidean plane, without which there wouldn't be a substantial difference 21:09:42 *graphs 21:10:50 heh, hyperbolic geometry allows infinite-sided regular polygons :P 21:11:11 hyperbolic mapping would look something like 21:11:25 but is it turing complete 21:11:26 that would probably just give an infinite binary tree as the graph, though. 21:12:52 would look something like 21:12:52 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 21:12:52 | || || || || || || || || | 21:12:52 ||| |||||| |||||| ||| 21:12:52 | | | || | | || | | | 21:12:52 ||||||||| ||||||||| 21:12:53 | || || | | || || | 21:12:53 ||| ||| ||| ||| 21:12:53 | | | | | | | | 21:12:59 thanks 21:13:06 where | = somwhere where it's valid to put an opcode 21:13:36 using a tiling of squares where vertexes are surrounded by 5 squares instead of 4 21:13:37 why i am logged out of wikipedia again, maybe i forgot to tick that box yesterday. 21:14:26 madbr: i'd assume you'd put opcodes on the vertices, since the tilings are transitive in those 21:14:51 although the regular ones are also transitive on faces and edges 21:15:44 "Befunge/index.php" oh i forgot about that 21:17:08 ugh why isn't there a Category:Shit That Works On Weird Spaces 21:17:48 also Category:Articles With No Mention Of Brainfuck 21:18:15 Wouldn't having that category mention brainfuck? 21:18:59 Obviously the category wouldn't include itself. 21:19:14 (it's a small category after all) 21:19:19 (;_;) 21:19:48 well it says "With No Mention Of Brainfuck", not "With No Mention Of Themselves" 21:20:26 is Bike groaning so hard he cries? 21:20:36 hmm 21:20:48 4:6 would be easier to map to ascii 21:20:52 actually my saline tubes are just leaky 21:21:02 map everything to [3,2] ascii groups 21:21:04 recursively 21:21:35 madbr: what's that notation from 21:21:51 obviously the language should be composed of analytic functions. any closed path halts because the result is zero!! 21:21:54 just making it up on the fly 21:21:57 alternatively, what the heck does that mean 21:22:05 like 21:22:13 ok normal space is 4:4 21:22:20 why. how. 21:22:41 4 sided, 4 corners per vertex 21:22:48 that's a square grid 21:22:50 -!- monqy has joined. 21:22:53 4:3 is a cube 21:23:23 Bike: well the {4,4} tiling on the page i linked is euclidean, maybe that's what he means. 21:23:31 4:5 is a hyperbolic surface 21:24:00 oh yeah let's use {} instead 21:24:06 {4,3} is a cube 21:24:09 madbr: if you call those {4,3} and {4,5} you will be using the same notation as the article... right 21:24:14 {4,4} is a square grid 21:24:31 {4,5} is a huperbolic space corresponding to the pattern I pasted above 21:24:46 where you have groups of 5 squares around a corner 21:24:57 which you could notate as 21:24:58 those are all in the row number 4 (but actually second) of the regular example pictures 21:24:59 I'm kind of lost as to how cutes aren't {4,8}. 21:24:59 *** 21:25:01 * * 21:25:06 cubes* 21:25:18 cubes have square faces 21:25:20 so 4 21:25:21 also they have six sides? 21:25:29 Bike: because each vertex has 3 edges connected 21:25:33 yeah but they have 8 corners 21:25:43 each corner connects 3 edges 21:25:44 but a square has two edges on each vertex. 21:26:01 each corner is surrounded by 3 squares 21:26:20 like, there are 3 lines that join at each corner 21:26:41 equivalently, each vertex neighbors 3 faces 21:26:56 each corner is connected to 3 different other corners 21:27:14 hence {4,3} 21:27:30 Bike: each corner on the _cube_ has 3 neighboring edges and 3 neighboring faces 21:27:54 So how are squares {4,4}. 21:27:58 if you change that 3 for 4 (giving you {4,4}), then your cube turns into a flat grid 21:28:13 it's not just squares, it's a grid of squares 21:28:47 But if you have a grid of cubes shouldn't that be {4,6} since each vertex is at six edges or six faces. 21:29:10 no not a grid of cubes 21:29:14 a grid of squares 21:29:15 2d 21:29:56 like, we're looking at surfaces 21:30:04 the surface of a cube is 2d 21:30:12 the surface of a square grid is 2d 21:30:26 a grid of cubes is not a surface, it's a volume and it's 3d 21:30:31 doesn't count 21:31:21 Oh. 21:32:47 madbr: hm those {4,n} n>=5 tilings _should_ be good for a hyperbolic befunge 21:33:13 yeah 21:33:21 {4,6} is easier on ascii actually 21:33:29 and being quadrilateral, not too much change in how things work locally 21:33:35 {4,5} you represent a group of 5 tiles as 21:33:37 *** 21:33:38 * * 21:33:54 and if you apply that recursively then you fill your text file 21:34:55 there would still be 4 directions to go from each face. although those directions would no longer be globally consistent. 21:35:18 yeah I think if you just keep going in the same direction you spin 21:35:27 {4,6} would be easier 21:35:36 you'd represent a group of 6 squares as 21:35:37 *** 21:35:39 *** 21:35:41 so you would probably need to take care how things are placed in cells, you want to distinguish rotated characters 21:35:46 so your tiling fills the text file 21:35:52 and p and g needs some careful consideration :P 21:36:02 yeah 21:36:54 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:39:36 yeah I think if you just keep going in the same direction you spin <-- i don't think so, if you go between faces and always leave at the opposing edge you entered, it seems to me like all the {4,n} tilings give an infinite path 21:40:08 there's no opposing edge in {4,5} I think 21:40:19 tho there's one in {4,6} yes 21:40:21 otoh if you rotate right after each move, you will spin in _n_ steps, rather than 4 for the euclidean case 21:40:39 madbr: sure there is, they're still quadrilaterals 21:40:51 oh 21:40:52 hm 21:40:53 i am assuming cells are faces, not vertices 21:40:59 damn this is hard :3 21:41:49 the contents of a cell need to be an opcode and a direction that opcode is facing 21:41:57 I can't figure out an ascii mapping for surfaces that aren't {4,n} 21:42:39 well surfaces that aren't {4,n} would mean each cell has != 4 neighbors, which would make it locally much more different from ordinary befunge, i think 21:42:41 map to an ascii svg description of the surface 21:43:10 bike: how the hell do you edit that! 21:43:22 in your text editor obviously 21:43:24 xml is the future! 21:43:27 no 21:43:28 NO 21:43:32 madbr: well the euclidean {6,3} is not too hard so maybe other {6,n} can be done too? 21:43:36 THE FUTURE MADBR 21:44:01 the future is going to leave you behind, at 2 radians from zero 21:44:03 oerjan: ok how do you do {6,4} 21:44:09 also json > xml 21:44:19 granted 21:44:20 ...i didn't say _i_ could do it :( 21:44:36 totally unrelatedly "Adaptive Control of Ill-Defined Systems" and "Arrows, Structures, and Functors: The Categorical Imperative" were written by the same guy, cool 21:44:42 Use whatever data format is good for your use, whether it is JSON, XML, SQL, MIDI, etc 21:45:02 madbr: ...um you cheat and use the {4,6} one with dual markings, or something :P 21:45:30 (i assume they must be dual vertex-face-wise) 21:46:01 i feel like i should be angry about appropriating kant for a dumb pun though 21:47:16 (x,y) coordinates won't work with this i think... 21:47:38 ok how would this work recursively 21:48:11 you'd start with a group of 4 hexes 21:49:33 what you'd want to know i think, is the translation/rotation group of this, so you can calculate when you are returning to the same spot 21:50:19 as i noted, (rotate-right move-forward)^n = identity 21:50:40 while move-forward itself seems to be infinite order 21:51:20 ...you'd want the group elements to be your coordinate system, i guess 21:52:05 this being one of those torsors we have previously discussed here not too long ago 21:52:22 (or well, zzo38 asked about something for which they are the answer) 21:55:13 or hm you could use ^> hm could be that {4,n}, n odd allows you to do arbitrary rotation by moving, while n even only allows you to do 180 degrees 21:57:46 in {4,5}, >v<^> gets you back but rotated 90 degrees left 21:58:59 in {4,6}, >v<^>v gets you back upside down 21:59:33 these are commands interpreted according to your current facing direction. 21:59:48 ...which is _different_ from your befunge direction of moving :P 22:06:23 {4,5} and {4,6} have their own wp articles, which link on to _this_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coxeter-Dynkin_diagram#Hyperbolic_groups_in_H2 ARGH 22:08:12 `quote water memory 22:08:14 276) elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones. 22:08:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order-6_square_tiling has an escher picture :) 22:11:55 madbr: oh hm this should mean {4,8} will _not_ rotate your direction if you return, meaning it has globally consistent directions, i think 22:12:06 (similar for {4,4n} 22:12:08 ) 22:14:56 hm you could think of this moving around as an infinite ternary tree 22:15:03 | 22:15:06 --- 22:15:44 | 22:15:59 oops 22:18:17 -!- agony has joined. 22:18:28 -!- agony has changed nick to AgonyLang. 22:20:21 Hi all, I've just published my first esoteric language on esolangs: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony 22:21:06 It is another (there are so many) brainfuck related language, in this case actually backwards compatible mostly 22:21:23 yes, yes there are so many 22:21:58 This version supports self modifying code, so increase the agony making something 22:23:39 AgonyLang, Phantom_Hoover won't be happy. He's got a Tumblr which is pretty much him hating brainfuck derivatives 22:24:03 | 22:24:03 -+- 22:24:03 | | | 22:24:03 -+-+-+- 22:24:03 | | | | | 22:24:05 -+- | -+- 22:24:08 | | | | | 22:24:10 -+-+---+---+-+- 22:24:13 | | | | | 22:24:15 -+- | -+- 22:24:18 | | | 22:24:20 (sorry) 22:25:02 and the symmetry group would be about how to identify parts of that 22:25:19 People can hate all they want, their problem, not mine 22:26:19 `msg HackEgo `? Phantom_Hoover 22:26:21 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: msg: not found 22:26:27 Whoops 22:26:33 ` is not / 22:26:39 funny that 22:26:55 `? phantom_hoover 22:26:57 Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist. 22:27:23 AgoryLang: Well, you are currect, but still I also think there are already too many, but don't let that stop you 22:29:26 I may not agree with what you have to say, but will defend your right to say it. 22:29:30 AgonyLang, fuckyorbrane, brainjoust 22:29:48 voltaire had brainfuck derivatives in mind when he said that. 22:29:52 You have to start somewhere, I wanted to make something with very limited instructionset, able to run in a core so I can battle like CoreWar (joust is very limited), and self-modifying 22:30:02 Voltaire didn't say that, it was his friend. 22:30:13 Also, he didn't have brainfuck derivatives in mind. 22:30:34 Oh. 22:30:39 AgonyLang, check out http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fyb/doc/fyb_spec.txt 22:30:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:31:15 This new language reminds me of a song.. 22:31:20 -!- augur has joined. 22:31:44 AgonyLang, also, am i correct in assuming that there are only 16 addressable memory cells in this thing 22:31:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAPJTik5mSo 22:32:53 there is something wrong with you Taneb 22:33:30 Phantom_Hoover: The core can be much larger, but cells just have 4 bits -> 16 possible states 22:34:45 Phantom_Hoover, while that statement has been repeatedly established, what in particular did you have in mind? 22:35:01 Taneb: FukYorBran is closer to what I had in mind indeed, didn't see it on esolangs 22:35:24 AgonyLang, it's not as popular as BF Joust, because (perhaps) of its complexity 22:36:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:36:45 AgonyLang, but... there's all this stuff about addressing. 22:37:09 Taneb: Sure, especially with multiple processes. Agony was implemented in two hours max, the rules are a bit simpler I think, and leverages the self-modifying aspect a bit more. There is also Self-modifying brainfuck, but that is based on characters only 22:37:51 Phantom_Hoover, that is machine code mapping, the instructions have a binary counterpart 22:39:10 Phantom_Hoover, so for example <- (two instructions) are in binary 0100 1000, so if the memory pointer points to the "-" instruction and you call "." (character print) it prints "H" (01001000) 22:39:30 Oh, the code exists in memory. 22:39:37 Ah yes 22:40:01 The description can be improved I see (assumptions all over the place) 22:40:32 So the Hello World! looks like this: <[.<]$$$,{}~<~)+{~*@+{$~*~)~)~@<- 22:40:43 See the <- (H) at the end 22:40:48 It makes sense. 22:41:06 As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really. 22:42:02 The funny thing is it runs quite a lot of Brainfuck programs without problems, this is just a deeper level adding the machine code memory mapping 22:42:29 You'd need to filter out the comments 22:42:47 Haven't implemented (nor specified) comments indeed 22:43:07 And most brainfuck programs assume right-infinite tape 22:43:20 Because some implementations don't have left-infinite tape 22:43:54 Interestingly, P'' (an early computational model that was virtually the same as brainfuck) has left-infinite tape 22:43:56 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:44:06 Yeah, that is why I've specified putting the pointer to the right, after that having a big circular core helps 22:44:45 Anyway, what brought you to esolanging? 22:45:17 Pfft, I've been doing corewars for a long time, and Redcode basically it an esolang 22:45:24 Aah 22:45:39 And I've played with whitespace/bf for a while some time ago, and now I just had spare time 22:46:18 Check out Piet! http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html 22:46:20 Reading an article about somebody using generic algorithms in BF to create Hello World! re-spraked interest 22:47:16 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/helloworld-mondrian-big.png <-- hello world in Piet 22:49:26 Also, a friend is esoteric language fan as well, he implemented various esolangs in Redcode (for example Underload: http://corewar.co.uk/assembly/underload.htm) 22:56:26 -!- aloril has joined. 22:58:09 -!- augur has joined. 23:03:12 `addquote As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really. 23:03:17 977) As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really. 23:05:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:08:38 Hi AgonyLang :-) 23:09:45 Going to meet someone in 15 minutes who has two deaf parents, so I'm now learning a bit of sign language as a surprise, pretty esoteric as well ;) 23:10:15 imo learn nicaraguan sign language 23:10:47 Make sure you learn the right damn sign language 23:10:54 ASL and BSL are very very different 23:11:00 And NSL is even more different 23:11:09 15 minutes... 23:11:14 Other than ASL, I don't know if those acronyms are ever used 23:11:23 what's bsl, british? 23:11:52 I've picked up a bit of sign language from watching kid's TV! :-( 23:11:53 Yeah 23:13:19 If they are shows about sign language, then I suppose it can help a bit. 23:15:00 watching news supported by sign language..have you ever noticed, how accurate the gestures are? it's like a perfect reduction unrevealing the essence of the issue 23:15:20 esolang wiki, now with a genuine van rijn piece 23:15:51 busting all that rhetorical figures and euphemisms 23:18:19 ulong tea 23:21:36 kmc: is it boiled with charcoal? 23:21:41 probably not 23:27:23 Could I piet program be represented as a map from some key to an 8-tuple of Maybe PietEffect? 23:27:34 Maybe (PietEffect, Key) 23:31:16 So... StateT Key Maybe PietEffect 23:33:01 Not quite... 23:36:24 Key -> (Maybe (PietEffect, Key)) * 8 23:36:49 > 18 * 23:36:50 :1:6: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 23:36:51 > 18 * k 23:36:53 18 * k 23:37:00 > (18 * k) + 1 23:37:02 18 * k + 1 23:37:06 > ((18 * k) + 1) * 8 23:37:07 (18 * k + 1) * 8 23:37:14 > (((18 * k) + 1) * 8) ^ k 23:37:18 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 23:38:22 piet has keys? 23:38:46 `olist 23:38:47 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 23:39:03 has he reached 9 in a row yet? 23:39:04 (876) 23:39:39 damn it 23:39:55 {4,6} is so hard to turn into a uniform grid :O 23:39:57 This is the 6th 23:40:08 3 more before it's the 9-in-a-row 23:42:40 oerjan, key to a colour block 23:48:41 I think syntax sugar helps me learn things :/ 23:48:50 do notation gives me an intuition about monads 23:49:03 you monster. 23:49:24 leibniz notation gives people an intuition about calculus. 23:49:38 ẍ 23:51:47 -!- cantcode has joined. 23:55:51 `WeLcOmE cantcode 23:55:54 CaNtCoDe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 23:56:59 HackEgo, hElP! 23:58:32 hm sadly the WeLcOmE algorithm hasn't been properly refactored 23:59:17 `cat bin/WeLcOmE 23:59:18 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())" 23:59:54 @type zipWith id (cycle [toUpper, id]) 23:59:55 [Char] -> [Char] 2013-03-03: 00:00:01 oh no 00:00:58 is there an equivalent to raw_input() that takes an entire file? 00:01:30 `run python -c 'print open("bin/welcome").readlines()' 00:01:32 ​['#!/usr/bin/perl -w\n', 'if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }\n'] 00:01:46 ...i meant entire stdin 00:01:52 oerjan: when I showed your colorize script to a python developer he screamed at me and rewrote it in horrror. Wanna see? 00:02:00 Bike: OKAY 00:02:13 Now that's enthusiasm I want to see! 00:02:13 it's not quite mine, fizzie wrote the original 00:02:28 (share the blame) 00:02:46 `run welcome | python -c 'print open("/dev/stdin").read()' 00:02:51 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 00:03:12 um and read takes all? 00:03:36 Sometimes 00:03:48 `run cat bin/welcome | python -c 'print open("/dev/stdin").read()' 00:03:52 ​#!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; } 00:04:00 -!- Sanky has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:01 -!- hogeyui has quit (*.net *.split). 00:04:02 i guess that works 00:04:06 oops 00:04:19 `run cat bin/welcome | whatever? 00:04:20 http://pastie.org/private/k564m0ahv1xxuqaumcafg 00:04:23 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:04:24 -!- hogeyui has joined. 00:04:27 uses sys.stdin 00:04:31 -!- Sanky has joined. 00:04:33 -!- Sanky has quit (Excess Flood). 00:04:41 I like how the new ircd goes to great lengths to not tell you which server went down. 00:05:19 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:05:30 Bike: that's not equivalent at all 00:06:01 -!- Sanky has joined. 00:06:02 > comparing length "open('/dev/stdin')" "import sys;sys.stdin" 00:06:03 LT 00:06:05 oh no! 00:06:19 linux wins!!! 00:06:46 `lsb_release -a 00:06:48 No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux \ Release:n/a \ Codename:n/a 00:07:33 -!- AgonyLang has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:08:22 `run (echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join(['(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT 00:08:24 bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `(echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join(['(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT' 00:08:55 `run (echo '#!/usr/bin/env python'; echo 'print (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())') >bin/CaT; chmod a+x CaT 00:08:59 chmod: cannot access `CaT': No such file or directory 00:09:10 `chmod a+x bin/CaT 00:09:11 chmod: missing operand after `a+x bin/CaT' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information. 00:09:14 `run chmod a+x bin/CaT 00:09:19 No output. 00:09:28 `run welcome | CaT 00:09:29 -!- atehwa has joined. 00:09:30 WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 00:09:41 `cat bin/WeLcOmE 00:09:43 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())" 00:10:20 `run sed -i 's/pyt.*/CaT/' bin/WeLcOmE 00:10:23 No output. 00:10:34 `WeLcOmE atehwa 00:10:36 AtEhWa: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.) 00:11:14 `run echo "cantcode: ok what did you need help with?" | CaT 00:11:16 CaNtCoDe: Ok wHaT DiD YoU NeEd hElP WiTh? 00:11:26 great 00:11:50 can you make a version for zalgo? :) 00:12:18 oh hm 00:12:28 i can't even _see_ zalgo. 00:12:42 what was wrong with old WeLcOmE 00:12:52 it's ok 00:12:53 not modular enough 00:12:56 i was just trying if it would parse it 00:12:57 haven't you heard of unix philosophy? 00:13:08 `run sed -i 's/$@/"$@"/' bin/WeLcOmE 00:13:13 No output. 00:13:21 `run relcome | CaT 00:13:22 `cat bin/WeLcOmE 00:13:24 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | CaT 00:13:25 ​wElCoMe tO ThE iNtErNaTiONaL hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LANgUAgE dEsIgn AnD DePlOyMeNt! fOr moRe iNfOrMatIoN, ChEcK OuT OUR wIkI: hTtP://EsolaNGS.OrG/WIkI/MaIn_PaGe. (foR tHe oTHEr kInD OF eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRic oN iRC.DaL.nET.) 00:13:34 See? Beautiful. 00:14:20 it looks like a gas leak in a puddle 00:15:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:15:22 who's that? 00:15:46 cantcode: HackEgo only takes commands starting with ` . some of the other bots respond to their name (hi fungot!) 00:15:46 oerjan: he was now a city, and of the dots perhaps a half inch more. the augmented party now began to advance directly toward the invisible building, and had no idea what the curious image could be. 00:15:49 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:16:32 `run ls bin 00:16:36 ​? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ colorize \ define \ delquote \ elist \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ ka 00:16:39 .habla espanol? 00:17:00 not much spanish here, sorry 00:17:08 `oh 00:17:10 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oh: not found 00:17:34 `run botsnack | colorize | CaT 00:17:37 ​:-D 00:17:45 that's it 00:17:56 oonbotti: you are the only bot i remember who actually parses english, no? 00:17:56 oerjan: Why do you think I am the only bot you remember who actually parses english, no? 00:17:57 Indeed, it is that. 00:18:27 oonbotti: habla espanol? 00:18:27 oerjan: Perhaps the answer lies within yourself? 00:18:38 ¿shouldn't you use ¿ for spanish questions? 00:19:00 anyway, do spaniards really use ¿ on the internet? 00:19:01 oonbotti: ¿habla español? 00:19:01 oerjan: Why do you ask that? 00:19:06 nooga: MAYBE 00:19:08 ¿ 00:19:24 ¿, huh, add this to one of our bots 00:19:31 ¿ looks nice 00:19:40 not usually, in my experience (do they use it) 00:19:59 not that i know any actual spaniards, just spanish-speakers from the other half of the world 00:20:01 What's that? ELIZA? 00:20:04 ¿que es una gasoliniera cerca de aqui? 00:20:07 sure looks like eliza. 00:20:17 zzo38: oonbotti? i think so. 00:20:18 nooga: irc.dal.net 00:20:30 buen 00:21:02 HAR HAR HAR 00:23:37 ¿donde esta la zapateria? 00:24:01 We need a Parry in here. 00:24:25 redio reloj 00:29:00 oonbotti: fungot 00:29:00 Jafet: I see. 00:29:00 Jafet: when i fnord hinted to others about my find, and this was their tragic homecoming. they had, and between each pair of anklets stretched a golden chain that held its fnord to a significance beyond the emotion which it excites and is. for the man who 00:30:36 * hagb4rd nervously jingles his chains 00:31:15 wtf wat 00:31:18 "Yes, the ratio of a perfect circle to its radius should be rational. The fact that it is irrational proves that either a. the circle is not perfect, or that b. the space plane the circle occupies is not perfectly flat and consistent." 00:31:56 * Bike imagines riding a space plane, scratching a circle into the window 00:32:12 sounds like hagb4rd all right 00:32:42 Sgeo: I hear Khinchin's constant is rational. 00:33:07 100% cotton 00:33:17 * hagb4rd unleashed 00:34:17 i can't believe it's still not known whether the euler-mascheroni constant is rational 00:34:58 i can't believe it's not maccheroni 00:35:25 If you pick a random real number it's probably pretty hard to prove its irrationality. 00:38:09 Don't you need the axiom of choice to pick a random real number 00:39:29 psh sets 00:40:59 yes but let's face it, what can you prove about a random real number 00:41:20 "it exists, maybe" 00:41:29 depending on how constructivist you are?? 00:42:02 it's real 00:42:09 Maybe it would be better to restrict it to definable numbers... 00:42:47 the definable numbers are countable and so don't have a uniform probability distribution 00:43:08 well, neither do reals for that matter 00:43:26 conclusion: random real numbers don't exist! 00:43:39 oh nooooo 00:44:20 I meant like, in [0,1] though. 00:47:11 OKAY 00:47:29 then the definable numbers still don't have a uniform one, hth 00:47:37 in fact, one of gods biggest problems might have been designing some unpredictability. otherways it eternatity would be so boring. 00:47:53 :( 00:48:13 it's it possible to do a turing complete language with only one bignum variable 00:48:22 yes 00:48:27 obviously 00:48:33 psh who needs variables 00:48:52 also what bike said, cf. the lambda calculus 00:48:58 madbr, you can encode lists of integers as an integer if you think in terms of product of primes 00:49:04 lambda calculus has variables! 00:49:08 * Bike was actually thinking combinators 00:49:17 Schönfinkel in da house 00:49:17 madbr: fractran 00:49:17 Taneb, just treat it as a bitstream 00:49:19 taneb: yeah but that's ok if you have like 2 or 3 variables 00:49:41 [1, 2, 3] -> 2^1 * 3^2 * 5^3 = 2250 00:50:26 which essentially does what Taneb says 00:50:29 madbr, you can do that for infinite variables because there are infinite primes 00:50:33 madbr, we proved sumamoito tc essentially using only one variable 00:50:59 You could also use a more reasonable code but lol math. 00:51:52 (there were a few others because sumamoito has next to no facilities for actually manipulating that variable, but they wouldn't be needed if you had arithmetic builtins) 00:52:52 augh 00:53:14 the back of my chair went loose and now my neck hurts like hell 00:53:31 why didn't i listen when they warned me about good posture 00:58:11 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:05:41 -!- mekeor has joined. 01:06:04 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:06:58 -!- augur has joined. 01:12:52 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:18:41 -!- nooga has joined. 01:28:12 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:31:46 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:42:30 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:45:57 A random real number isn't even random 01:47:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit). 01:49:38 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:50:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:53:40 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:55:25 -!- cantcode has changed nick to banana_pee. 02:00:34 -!- nooodl has joined. 02:01:40 http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/155156/is-it-generally-accepted-that-if-you-throw-a-dart-at-a-number-line-you-will-neve 02:03:26 yeah it's like countably infinite (rationals) vs uncountably infinite (irrationals) 02:03:29 or something like that 02:04:04 if you throw a countably infinite number of darts, what's the probability at least one will hit a rational? 02:04:31 heh that's a hard question 02:05:11 Sounds like the kind of problem that's fun to complicate unnecessarily. 02:05:16 it does XD 02:05:22 I like complicating the birthday "paradox" by mentioning that birthdays are not evenly distributed. 02:05:33 I am going to arbitrarily say the probability is epsilon. 02:05:35 "How strong is your throwing arm?" 02:05:42 "How far is the number line from the thrower? 02:05:42 i like how, if you look at the wikipedia article on 'wedge', the actual article on real-life wedges is near the bottom 02:05:48 "How big are the darts?" 02:05:57 yeah it's like countably infinite (rationals) vs uncountably infinite (irrationals) 02:05:58 or something like that 02:06:05 I guess my intuition would say that on average one would hit? 02:06:07 i think it's mostly measure 02:06:07 s 02:06:13 but this seems like a case where intuition will be totally wrong 02:06:37 but idk if you can have a measure space with both uncountable and countable sets with nonzero measure 02:06:38 Intuition hates cardinality. 02:06:47 if you throw a countably infinite number of darts, what's the probability at least one will hit a rational? <-- 0 hth 02:06:50 i'd say 0 02:06:58 guys i'm not sure this is cardinality... 02:07:16 oerjan, help 02:07:17 ugh why am i reawake 02:07:18 essentially rationals and non-transcendental irrationals are countable so they have a surface area of 0 02:07:36 Fiora, something something something countable products 02:07:44 Phantom_Hoover: sure you can, you can sum a discrete and a continuous measure easily 02:07:55 right 02:09:03 Man, I just want to know how hard proving something rational is. 02:09:13 countably infinite number of darts, I don't think you'd hit anything 02:09:42 you've got countable infinity number of points that can be hit 02:09:56 Phantom_Hoover: you can also split it up into a continuous and a discrete one 02:09:58 and countably infinite number of darts that will be thrown 02:09:59 a few weeks ago i've heard another interesting analogy including darts, chances of hit, and all that improbable (but true) cicumstances leading straight to the possibility of existance. it's that there are two way of the perfect 'hit': one is aiming and hitting by chance.. the other is like throwing the dart somewhere and drowing the mark around the place it hits :> 02:10:08 countable infinity * countable infinity = still countable infinity 02:10:10 Bike, 7 hards 02:10:38 Bike: is it proving rational or transcendental that's hard? 02:10:42 *drawing 02:10:45 I thought rational wasjust proving it could be expressed as p/q 02:10:47 I know a guy on the street who sells perfect hits 02:11:04 waiting for my man26$ 02:11:08 in my hand 02:11:19 hagb4rd: That sounds like the kind of analogy that a painfully stupid person might use as proof of God or divine design. 02:11:33 not really 02:11:37 Fiora: well, we've proved less numbers transcendental, and all rationals are algebraic... 02:11:46 just some humoristic thoughts 02:11:51 Bike: yeah, that's what I thought 02:11:53 transcendental is the hard one 02:11:57 btw it's simply basic countable additivity of measures, an axiom. mu(A_1 \/ A_2 \/ ...) <= sum mu(A_i) = 0 02:12:14 But we still don't know if Euler-Mascheroni or Khinchin are rational, let alone algebraic. 02:12:24 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:12:25 (ok a little more work to show it's subadditive when the sets are not disjoint.) 02:12:36 Bike: wow @_@ 02:12:47 Yeah, it's weird. 02:12:49 Fiora, the difficulty is simply that proving /anything/ on an arbitrary real number is really hard 02:12:55 Khinchin is a really weird constant anyway. 02:13:07 And relevant! Since almost all real numbers conform to it. 02:13:33 Phantom_Hoover: well, it's not arbitrary, it's computable, right? 02:13:36 and computable reals are countable 02:13:58 uncomputably countable, but yes 02:14:17 otoh proving anything on an arbitrary computable number is harder in even messier ways 02:14:19 I meant like, countable as in countably infinite right 02:14:26 The hell does that mean? Obviously it's not recursive but what's that have to do with cardinality 02:14:35 nothing? 02:14:46 i just thought it was really weird when i first realised 02:14:55 well it's still r.e. 02:15:05 I... think 02:15:54 Bike: is it proving rational or transcendental that's hard? <-- basically if a number isn't obviously one of those by construction, then discerning them is usually hard. 02:16:08 yeah, you can just enumerate the set of programs in some languag 02:16:09 e 02:16:40 but discerning the ones that correspond to computable reals is isomorphic to the halting problem, of course 02:17:04 yeah, I guess it's like, proving things /not/ rational is hard <.< 02:17:46 and proving things rational is hard if you cannot find the particular rational they're equal to 02:17:59 That's why people like me are still roaming the streets. 02:18:12 searching. searching for the rational numbers hiding in the dark alleys 02:18:32 passing out illegal primes 02:18:32 Hmm, I was thinking along the lines of "no one can prove I'm not rational". 02:18:36 But that works too. 02:18:42 Does anyone really care whether khinchin's constant is irrational 02:19:06 think of the implications, Jafet 02:19:12 think of the implications 02:19:18 * Jafet thinks. 02:19:49 Not all is lost, though! At least the Euler-Macaroni constant is computable. 02:19:51 ( save the implications! ) 02:20:28 also the euler-macarena constant is real 02:20:37 Do you mean Euler-Mascheroni? 02:20:38 Does a program that computes the euler-macaroni constant consist of spaghetti code? 02:21:02 Wikipedia doesn't have Euler-Macaroni. 02:21:30 zzo38: If I want to call it Euler-Macaroni, then by FSM, I will! 02:21:32 No one can stop me! 02:22:05 shachaf: the euler-mascara constant isn't any random person's to name 02:22:25 shachaf: I am not trying to stop you. 02:22:25 istr my analysis notes saying we only know the euler-mechanic constant to 20 digits 02:22:38 which seems to be very, very wrong 02:22:40 Jafet: "it would be really weird" 02:22:56 that was true in... 1809 or so? 02:22:57 your analysis notes? 02:23:02 zzo38: I see right through your Euler-Masquerade! 02:23:04 Phantom_Hoover: the wikipedia introduction has 50... 02:23:10 hagb4rd: notes from a class on analysis 02:23:16 sieged by ignorant misanthropes spitting words 02:23:18 it says we know 28,844,489,545 as of 2009? XD 02:23:22 writing songs that voices never share 02:23:38 you have ruined that song for me forever 02:23:39 Fiora: eh, what's nine orders of magnitude between friends 02:23:44 Phantom_Hoover was probably thinking about bruno's constant 02:24:18 bruno's constant? 02:24:24 shachaf: Do you like to see things that aren't necessarily there? 02:25:05 zzo38: Like a hippopotamus? 02:25:14 zzo38: Oh, are you talking about modal logic here? 02:25:44 in that case, have you ever seen a thing that was necessarily there? 02:25:44 ¬□there, or something? 02:26:05 I.e. ◇¬there? 02:26:33 No, I mean you. 02:27:01 You mean me, and I mean modal logic. 02:27:07 And surely meaning is transitive? 02:27:46 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 02:28:22 hello to you too, monqy 02:28:24 itym transcendental 02:29:29 zzo38: You should invent a crazy new kind of modal logic that uses crazy new symbols. 02:29:38 Maybe things like 25C9 FISHEYE [◉] 02:29:38 25CA LOZENGE [◊] 02:31:17 Fisheye logic? 02:31:24 Maybe logic for optics. 02:31:48 ◯ ○ 02:31:53 See the difference between those two? 02:32:03 One of them is LARGE 02:32:06 size matters 02:32:26 -!- Jon1 has joined. 02:32:49 hagb4rd: Have you ever said anything useful? 02:33:24 it's yet to be observed 02:33:27 `welcome Jon1 02:33:36 Jon1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:34:50 shachaf: have ever made someone happy? 02:34:50 `relcome Phantom_Hoover 02:34:55 ​Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:35:23 hagb4rd, on this channel, at leasy, he has a considerable lead on you. 02:35:27 *at least 02:35:38 -!- Jon1 has left. 02:35:51 yes. i follow. 02:35:58 you lead 02:36:11 hope you have an idea of the next goal to achieve 02:36:28 tell me, hagb4rd, do you actually think all the shit that comes out of your mouth is deep, or are you just posturing 02:36:37 cmon phanti 02:37:00 have a cake! 02:37:32 shit that comes out of my mouth 02:37:37 my dear 02:37:38 how good are compilers at optimizing loop test conditions? 02:38:10 438 points good. 02:38:58 um, like, what specifically about them? 02:40:16 like, trying to count down to avoid cmp at the end and stuff? 02:41:10 whoa,dude, look at all these TLDs: http://www.iana.org/domains/special 02:41:35 no more like guessing that your routine is going to loop like 8 times in one go 02:42:01 you mean, unrolling? 02:42:28 The easy way to figure out how good a compiler is at optimizing a specific piece of code is to compile that piece of code and see what it does. 02:43:40 mhm 02:44:02 http://דוגמה.טעסט/ 02:44:19 wondering about this because I'm working on a, uh, fairly interesting CPU arch 02:44:28 which one :o 02:44:58 Do you have any better documentation of Yamaha OPM? 02:45:09 ooh, devanagari? 02:45:28 the one where iteration 1 of a loop is done on core 1, iteration 2 is on core 2, iteration 3 is on core 3, iteration 4 is on core 4, iteration 5 is on core 5, iteration 6 is on core 6, iteration 7 is on core 7, iteration 8 is on core 8, iteration 9 is on core 1, iteration 10 is on core 2... 02:45:34 wait, this is a real cpu arch? 02:45:52 not yet 02:45:53 "Powered by MEDIAWIKI" 02:45:55 .... oh 02:46:00 but it's definitely doable 02:46:02 um. I don't think you can meaningfully ask 02:46:09 what a compiler does on an arch that doesn't exist <.< 02:46:12 >.> 02:46:27 Well, you can, unless the compiler also does not exist 02:46:35 Then it is less meaningful 02:47:14 I suppose it was a more general "what sorts of loopy behaviors are compilers good at recognizing?" sort of question. 02:47:17 zzo : hmm... I remember being told that if you try to change synth params on the fly, OPM (or was it OPN2?) can crash 02:47:18 well guessing at loop invariants is an optimization thing dating from the 60s 02:47:21 If your CPU has eight cores and fully coherent shared cache, you are doomed to fail in any case. 02:47:27 or 50s 02:48:15 50s = 60s 02:48:16 jafet : it's more like 8-way SSE / 8-issue superscalar 02:48:26 might cut it down to 4-way 02:48:30 8-issue superscalar already exists, I think 02:48:33 there's some TI DSPs that do that 02:48:58 the nice thing is that the design will be a lot less complicated than some of those 02:49:19 um, are you sure? some ofthose DSPs use less than a watt and are miniscule 02:49:33 I mean, like, they're not complicated 02:49:56 yeah and you have to write for them in ASM? 02:50:06 I don't think so... 02:50:22 http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/dsp/c6000_dsp/c64x/products.page 02:50:53 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sprs371f/sprs371f.pdf 02:52:16 madbr: Yes, I think I read something about such things doing so too, but still, I have not found any good documentation for OPM. 02:52:41 fiora: hmm, that looks fairly close to what the crusoe did 02:53:11 same kind of 8 unit pre-issued super-superscalar vliw design 02:54:00 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 02:54:55 fiora : that's a DSP 02:55:04 essentially 2 cores bundled together 02:55:19 can you really write efficient code for that in C++? :D 02:55:51 I don't think it's two cores? 02:56:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMS320C64x doesn't say anything about multicore at least 02:56:18 oh, I see. the two sets of functional units. 02:56:50 yeah so it's not multicore but it's two units 02:57:52 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1453718/ti-dsp-programming-is-c-fast-enough-or-do-i-need-an-assembler I found this I guess 02:59:17 yeah so you probably have to use intrinsics 02:59:33 I think the intrinsics are just for the built-in SIMD stuff 02:59:38 like the 2x16-bit and 4x8-bit? 02:59:48 oh 02:59:54 since, like, you can't really write that in C 03:00:04 well anyways 03:00:17 the design I have beats that 03:00:22 it can vectorize any loop 03:00:48 as long as you delay the write operations to the next cycle 03:01:50 which is why it has to have special registers for data feedback from iteration to iteration 03:02:08 and some opcodes to "lock" memory addresses until the real writeback 03:02:23 but other than that it's just a normal RISC 03:05:45 like, you only even just need a decoder for the first core 03:06:09 and just use delayed versions of the same instructions next cycle on the next core 03:07:52 the point is to get performance similar to crazy superscalar RISCs 03:08:06 but for much less complexity 03:08:23 and without the severe restrictions on datapaths etc you see in DSPs 03:15:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:16:45 this sounds interesting. would you mind to share a look on your solution/code/paper? (as long as it's not finished and sold/open source) 03:18:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:18:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:23:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:23:55 -!- tswett_ has joined. 03:29:00 -!- GeoffreyVanSchau has joined. 03:30:41 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split). 03:30:41 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 03:38:03 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett. 03:43:36 -!- GeoffreyVanSchau has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:55:17 -!- myndzi has joined. 04:07:46 -!- mekeor has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)). 04:24:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:38:44 back from supper 04:40:33 hagb4rd : I have a little bit of what code would look like on it 04:41:26 http://pastebin.com/eCMNNxiF 04:42:22 doesn't use feedback registers or anti-alias memory operations tho (so it would probably have to be written as ASM or with intrinsics) 05:04:10 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:05:34 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:06:22 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 05:11:15 -!- monqy has joined. 05:16:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 05:19:19 -!- dessos_ has joined. 05:20:16 -!- ais523_ has joined. 05:20:54 -!- monqy_ has joined. 05:21:34 -!- monqy has quit (Disconnected by services). 05:21:39 -!- monqy_ has changed nick to monqy. 05:24:17 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 05:24:54 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 05:26:33 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 05:27:03 -!- dessos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:27:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:27:32 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:27:32 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:27:32 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:28:02 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 05:43:16 -!- Sanky has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:43:34 -!- Sanky has joined. 05:43:36 -!- Sanky has quit (Excess Flood). 05:44:05 -!- Sanky has joined. 05:48:28 -!- ssue_ has joined. 05:52:08 -!- SirCmpwn_ has joined. 05:52:34 -!- ssue has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:52:34 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:52:36 -!- monqy has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- surma has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- oonbotti has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- kmc has quit (*.net *.split). 05:52:36 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:52:39 -!- ssue_ has quit (Changing host). 05:52:39 -!- ssue_ has joined. 05:52:40 -!- SirCmpwn_ has quit (Changing host). 05:52:40 -!- SirCmpwn_ has joined. 05:52:42 -!- ssue_ has changed nick to ssue. 05:52:55 -!- SirCmpwn_ has changed nick to SirCmpwn. 05:56:53 -!- monqy has joined. 05:56:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 05:56:53 -!- surma has joined. 05:56:53 -!- oonbotti has joined. 05:56:53 -!- kmc has joined. 05:57:51 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 06:07:41 -!- ogrom has joined. 06:16:29 `ralist 06:16:30 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ralist: not found 06:17:09 nooooo 06:18:35 SirCmpwn: Hmm. Where in CO are ye? 06:19:26 -!- monqy has joined. 06:21:07 -!- dessos has joined. 06:21:19 Sgeo: Red Alert 4 is coming out? 06:21:49 Sam Hughes posted a new story in Ra 06:21:54 http://qntm.org/ra 06:23:30 `qlnitsmt 06:23:32 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qlnitsmt: not found 06:23:49 -!- dessos_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:26:10 -!- dessos_ has joined. 06:26:15 -!- dessos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:26:32 theory: it is substantially easier for something to be awesome if it has no purpose other than awesomeness 06:26:33 Oh, the Other Sam Hughes. 06:26:42 agree/disagree? 06:27:20 Other Sam Hughes? 06:27:27 -!- md_5 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 06:27:50 ais523: I would imagine the opposite. 06:27:56 -!- md_5 has joined. 06:27:59 ais523, that makes sense. Although I don't know if that's true in all cases. Certainly in a game like Worms, Armageddon is awesome but near useless 06:28:16 hmm 06:28:37 (Armageddon sends asteroids that destroys most of the land and kills most things, friendly or not) 06:28:44 the example I'm thinking of, is adding a background character to a gameshow, who does nothing but watch, and make a map of the activity, and can /teleport/ 06:28:55 I find this to be very awesome, despite being completely pointless 06:29:11 like, all the things he could do with teleportation ability, and he chooses to do that 06:29:22 oh good i thought you were going to make them be the character representing the viewer 06:29:22 also he never does anything with the map, AFAICT 06:29:37 Bike: hmm, well it's not my character 06:29:44 Searching for Armageddon about a game called Worms Armageddon is kind of difficult 06:29:45 perhaps he represents the viewer? it seems unlikely though 06:29:57 Sgeo: this is actually the reason Ubuntu versions have such weird names 06:30:05 I'm imagining a teleporting nepeta 06:30:19 what's a nepeta? 06:30:23 Fiora: I had nothing to do with it! 06:30:27 pikhq: haven't been highlighted in here in a while 06:30:34 pikhq: I'm in Colorado Springs, near Garden of the Gods 06:30:38 …what's a Cmpwn? 06:30:45 ais523, a character in Homestuck. 06:30:47 ah 06:30:50 ais523: sex toy 06:30:53 Sgeo: really? 06:30:57 SirCmpwn: Huh. 06:30:58 ais523: Apparently related to me. 06:31:01 SirCmpwn: I'm in Falcon. 06:31:01 `? shachaf 06:31:04 shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. 06:31:05 pikhq: well done 06:31:22 `? ais523 06:31:24 Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. 06:31:30 Now to wonder if I know you in meatspace. 06:31:43 she makes charts of all the relationships of the other characters and updates it as the story goes on 06:31:52 Fiora: oh, that makes sense 06:32:00 that's also kind-of awesome 06:32:01 (but isn't that involved in the main plot) 06:32:02 Hmm, I don't do that. 06:32:10 Not for #esoteric, anyway. 06:32:14 Maybe I should. 06:32:27 pikhq: aka Drew DeVault 06:32:32 SirCmpwn: Would you happen to know a "Josiah Worcester"? 06:32:38 nope 06:32:38 Mmm, not really. 06:32:47 pikhq: isn't that pikhq's real name? 06:32:53 the only time I've been in Falcon was for a marching band competetion in high school 06:32:56 that was a while ago 06:33:00 I'm kind-of amused I recognised it 06:33:06 haven't seen it for years 06:33:10 http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727230124/mspaintadventures/images/1/13/02295.gif <-- the 'shipping wall' 06:33:38 hmm… other things that are unexpectedly awesome: in An Untitled Story, very few of the characters have names 06:34:02 At this point I am confused. 06:34:04 @wn awesome 06:34:04 *** "awesome" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 06:34:05 awesome 06:34:05 adj 1: inspiring awe or admiration or wonder; "New York is an 06:34:05 amazing city"; "the Grand Canyon is an awe-inspiring 06:34:05 sight"; "the awesome complexity of the universe"; "this 06:34:07 [4 @more lines] 06:34:11 there's one character (a shuriken-throwing ninja) who appears exactly twice, makes a grand appearance that's hard to exist, and although his name is never said in-game, it's apparently "Shakespeare" 06:34:12 awe-full 06:34:16 ais523: Yes, that's my real name. 06:34:21 ais523: I am Josiah "pikhq" Worcester. 06:34:22 and that makes him rather more awesome than he would be otherwise 06:34:39 pikhq: SDA grammar? (SDA always presents nicknames like that, it looks weird) 06:34:48 SirCmpwn: Anyways. I'm a student at UCCS. 06:34:52 ais523: SDA? 06:34:57 pikhq: there's a UCCS in falcon? 06:34:58 speedrunning site 06:35:03 Oh. That one. 06:35:08 "University of Colorado Colorado Springs"? 06:35:10 SirCmpwn: No, I drive the 15 miles. 06:35:13 Do they actually call it that? 06:35:16 pikhq: fancy 06:35:17 shachaf: Yes. 06:35:19 Incidentally, the girl with the blue helmet in the red circle in that chart is Nepeta 06:35:32 SirCmpwn: Though there *is* a PPCC campus out here now. 06:35:35 Sgeo: It's like looking into a cosmirror. 06:35:41 (She's in that relationship, and also wants to be in the relationship that has her and the guy with the Cancer symbol) 06:35:42 It's kinda pathetic, but nevertheless. 06:35:44 pikhq: feel free to give me a ring sometime and I'll buy you a beer, or your age bracket's equivalent of beer 06:35:57 My age bracket's equivalent of beer is beer, so. 06:36:14 so the sentence can be optimized 06:36:15 A ring? Isn't it a bit early for that? 06:36:18 Sadly just started on some meds that scream "don't use alcohol" though. 06:36:29 :( what ails you? 06:36:31 Fiora, look at the probably not relationship 06:36:43 Depression. ... So, twice bad idea actually. 06:37:10 I'll buy you a whore, then 06:37:15 pikhq: I recommend not trying to implement Feather as a depression cure 06:37:20 I tried once, I thought it might help 06:37:21 ais523: No plans to. 06:37:24 instead I ended up depressed /and/ confused 06:37:37 Sgeo: ironically yeah <.< took 3 years though 06:37:39 SirCmpwn: Meh. 06:37:41 oh i thought he meant, "not trying to implement feather" as a depression cure 06:37:51 I hear sex is good for sadness 06:37:55 hmm 06:38:00 though not suitable as a long term cure 06:38:00 Yeah, but not really for depression. 06:38:14 "trying not to implement Feather" is a combination that hasn't been tried, perhaps? 06:38:22 the usual state of affairs is "trying to not implement Feather" 06:38:33 and occasionally, "trying to implement not-Feather" 06:38:48 Alas, sex with girlfriend does not exactly do anything about feelings of self-loathing. 06:38:52 How do I tell the difference between sadness because of my situation and depression? 06:39:04 pikhq: have you tried auto-fellatio? 06:39:18 SirCmpwn: I am insufficiently flexible. 06:39:24 pikhq: :( 06:39:38 pikhq: fwiw, as far as I can tell the best cure for depression is having something to achieve 06:39:54 apparently it's medical advice hour in #esoteric 06:40:02 Sgeo: doc tells you you're crazy 06:40:11 is "seeing a psychologist" on that list? 06:40:33 which list 06:40:33 ais523: Yeah, um, getting out of bed is quite an accomplishment. 06:40:37 do we have an `mlist too 06:40:40 Is "seeing a philosopher" on the other list? 06:40:45 `mlist 06:40:47 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mlist: not found 06:40:56 Seeing a psychologist sounds like a bad idea to me. 06:41:01 pikhq: that sounds more like flu than depression 06:41:08 Then again, what if I have an anti-psychologist neurosis? 06:41:10 yeah, psychiatrist would be better 06:41:13 And anyways, I've just *started* medical treatment for it. 06:41:21 Psychiatrist sounds like an even worse idea to me. 06:41:23 ais523: it's pretty common with depression too. lack of energy and stuff 06:41:24 hmm, medical treatment sounds like it might help 06:41:54 No! Philosopher would be better, unless you are really religious in which case you should go to church instead. 06:41:55 People who have it really really really bad can like, stay up for days straight starting at walls. 06:42:05 fun times 06:42:13 ais523: Depression is rather different from merely being sad. Utter lack of energy and motivation, inability to enjoy things... 06:42:32 you missed an opportunity to call it anhedonia 06:42:37 I did. 06:42:39 good enough word that you should use it as much as possible imo 06:42:42 'Tis. 06:42:50 Particularly if it's applicable. 06:42:57 pikhq: indeed 06:43:05 Anhedonia may be the worst thing. 06:43:07 and yeah, Bike's word is indeed good 06:43:11 zzo38, um, I don't think philosophy can fix brain chemical balance issues 06:43:36 Sgeo: it could change the way you react to them 06:43:41 Sgeo: I also don't think so, but it is worth a try 06:43:41 you know i'm not sure how to feel about the "chemical imbalance" thing 06:44:04 on the one hand, it helps dissociate it from the common "just stop being sad" reaction. on the other, it's not very accurate and biopsychiatry by itself isn't so great 06:44:30 I also had not seen the word "biopsychiatry" before 06:44:30 does it vary from case to case? 06:44:36 It's a *lot* closer than many misconceptions of how depression works, though. 06:44:37 * ais523 invents molecular philosophy 06:44:47 Bike: how about "depression is a brain state with negative consequences that is often difficult to escape through normal means"? 06:44:55 What is a more accurate description? 06:44:58 Fiora: Sounds complicated. 06:45:04 In that clearly depression is an unusual and tricky brain state. 06:45:09 Sgeo: Probably what Fiora said, I guess. 06:45:28 I'm imagining, like. a gradient descent search getting caught in a valley 06:45:29 but 06:45:30 I'm a dork 06:45:31 biopsychiatry is just psychiatry from a biological view; you're insane because your neurotransmitters don't bond dopamine the right way, or w/e 06:45:53 unfortunately chemical treatment alone isn't always effective. 06:46:11 If you don't have anything to do, then do something else. 06:46:27 molecular philosophy is, like, do atoms have rights? 06:46:34 and if not, why not? 06:46:43 Oh, I was thinking mereology. 06:46:51 I think anything capable of asking for civil rights should be granted them 06:46:55 if you replace every atom of someone with another atom, when do they lose their rights? 06:46:56 so, tell me, have atoms asked? 06:47:03 hmm 06:47:04 large groups of atoms have asked! 06:47:05 main = putStrLn "May I have civil rights?" 06:47:05 bike : for some mental illnesses that's the best treatment we have I think 06:47:22 SirCmpwn: Well, yes, I think so too. But still, you must think of it more thoroughly. 06:47:28 madbr: usually some kind of therapy along with drugs helps. but as you said (or, asked) it varies from case to case. 06:47:41 Yes, atom will have a rights to be atomic, for example. 06:47:49 zzo38: >civil rights 06:47:52 Bike: Be nice if it were... Simple, easy cure for being in a state where "pleasure" is nontrivial would be nice. 06:48:00 zzo38: was that a pun? 06:48:01 They don't do other things, so the other rights simply is not applicable; therefore you don't answer yes or no. 06:48:03 Fiora: but can you really say atoms are "groups" in any meaningful sense ehhhhh?? 06:48:15 ais523: I don't know. 06:48:56 pikhq: and on the other side, http://depressioncomix.tumblr.com/image/41893397817 06:49:01 Bike: Everything is "groups" of stuff simply defined as being stuff by the division we are using into physical objects; that is not the only way to do it! All the universe is one thing all together. 06:49:09 zzo38: well, you can offer civil rights, even if they are incapable of using them 06:49:34 SirCmpwn: It wouldn't be useful or even meaningful though. 06:49:38 Bike: Mmm. I recently was linked to that tumblr. It is... rather too applicable. 06:49:39 wait I just noticed the topic 06:49:41 whose fault is that? 06:49:53 Bike, :( 06:50:00 zzo38: doesn't matter. If they ask, they'll be offered them. They needn't take advantage of it 06:50:01 pikhq: i know, right :( 06:50:02 I'm not even angry, I don't think it technically breaks any rules 06:50:03 Should they have the rights? Yes, but since it isn't even meaningful to say does have such rights, it is not yes. 06:50:04 it just isn't useful 06:50:15 zzo38: also: collectively, atoms are capable of taking advantage of civil rights 06:50:24 I think zzo38's viewpoint makes a lot of sense here 06:50:29 Sgeo: the funny thing is, the comic's by the same guy as did Sexy Losers. 06:50:44 SirCmpwn: O, yes, of course you can do that, I suppose. But *if they ask* it means. Really you consider the large object consisting of many atoms, which is ask. 06:50:50 Bike, was he depressed? I remember he stopped doing them 06:50:55 If they ask individually, is they aren't. 06:50:56 zzo38: but, more to the point, anyone capable of asking for civil rights is also capable of, say, casting a vote 06:51:05 If it was, it would be meaningful! 06:51:18 If it cannot civil rights then it cannot ask, either. 06:51:24 Sgeo: He is, but I don't think that's why he stopped. I think he does Sexy Losers ish comics occasionally on another tumblr actually. 06:51:27 SirCmpwn: casting votes can be automated very easily 06:51:50 does that mean computers need rights? 06:51:55 SirCmpwn: Yes, that is true. 06:52:01 ais523: just one example. The point here is that someone capable of communicating their desire for civil rights is capable of communicating their opinions as offered by those rights 06:52:07 But not really relevant, until you figure out the first thing, really? 06:52:09 (arguably, all evolutions in voting methods have been attempts to avoid the automation of voting) 06:52:18 But, yeah, SirCmpwn. Appreciate the offer of beer, but ATM I've got a stock of such that I intend not to drink because I do not want to see how fluoxetine and ethanol interact. 06:52:27 ais523: before you say "I'll write a script to ask for civil rights", know that I'll find you and slap the shit out of you 06:52:29 ais523: Computers are what they are programmed to be. 06:52:49 SirCmpwn: you can write a script to print words to the screen, but I don't know if it would understand what it was saying 06:52:52 Does mathematical formulas have the right to vote *by themself*? You cannot easily count all the possible ones... 06:52:59 I think you can write a script to request civil rights for the author of the script 06:52:59 voting is pointless anyway haven't you all heard of arrow's theorem !!! 06:53:09 also, if sentient computing is achieved, those computers should be granted civil rights 06:53:24 Bike: I have, it doesn't really prove that voting is pointless though 06:53:36 SirCmpwn, didn't I do that just above? 06:53:38 basically, it just proves that except in ideal circumstances, all voting methods have defects 06:53:43 The thing that you said you'd slap ais523 for? 06:53:54 Sgeo: I didn't notice, but I'd slap you over it, too 06:53:56 Sgeo: you've been slapped down by the channel often enough already 06:54:20 btw, I /still/ don't recommend attempting to give your girlfriend cancer 06:54:30 I'm forced to agree. 06:54:33 But, yeah, SirCmpwn. Appreciate the offer of beer, but ATM I've got a stock of such that I intend not to drink because I do not want to see how fluoxetine and ethanol interact. 06:54:39 (backstory: some of the other members of the channel recommended that as a joke, AFAICT; I disagreed with them) 06:54:44 -!- azaq23 has joined. 06:54:45 * pikhq has not been paying attention to this room enough. 06:54:46 If you have room with people who don't know Chinese but will follow all the instructions given to them to make an answer to a question in Chinese (like ELIZA and some computer programs, but completely by hand), are they Chinese? 06:54:47 pikhq: alright, no problem. Swap beer out for "social gathering" if you wish 06:54:51 (further backstory: it's not entirely clear whether Sgeo actually has a girlfriend) 06:55:03 SirCmpwn: Very well then, sounds reasonable. 06:55:19 But really you must consider mathematics. Can a mathematics think? 06:55:36 I have a girlfriend as of more recently than that occurred. 06:55:38 fuck, i can't even joke off of what zzo38 said, because I just KNOW some psephologist has considered how elections would work in the presence of countably infinite voters. 06:55:40 I don't want to ask if a computer can think; I want to ask if a mathematics can think! 06:56:00 ('psephologist' is a good word too btw) 06:56:02 Bike: what's a psephologist? 06:56:09 zzo38: I suppose a sufficiently complex algorithm could think, but only with the assistance of a human interpreter, whose skills would be far too lacking to manage it 06:56:12 and yeah, you've come up with three words I didn't know in less than an hour 06:56:19 ais523: someone who studies voting systems 06:56:38 * pikhq wonders what his talking-here stats have looked like in the past couple years, but can't be bothered to write the script for that. 06:56:38 or similar things 06:56:51 fizzie may have those stats to hand already 06:56:54 pikhq: I think fizzie made some fancy-looking graphs. 06:56:56 he likes doing those sorts of stats 06:57:03 Something like fetching the logs and grepping the logs to generate a histogram, but *eh* 06:57:22 SirCmpwn: Are you sure? Well, the same algorithm could be put into a computer, although possibly it would be too complicated to put into the computer, too. Even so, some things may be too large for the universe, and/or can have mathematical formulas that nobody has figured out yet. 06:57:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem#Infinitely_many_individuals 06:57:48 Dammit. Dammit! 06:57:54 zzo38: I think that the human mind is just a really, really, REALLY complicated program 06:58:05 Furthermore, if you want to ask if a computer can think, also ask, can a submarine swim? 06:58:26 a submarine can swim as a proxy for a sentient being or an AI 06:58:35 it's a vehicle, it doens't calculate 06:58:40 (or think) 06:58:46 zzo38: from my point of view, I'm basically 100% certain that it's possible for a computer to be sentient 06:58:54 I'm not sure either way whether any currently existing computers are sentient 06:58:54 I'm more and more convinced that zzo38 is Gary P. Rastov. 06:59:06 kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences 06:59:06 I expect that there will be a human brain emulator within the century, zzo38 06:59:12 ais523: From my point of view, I don't know. 06:59:15 yes 06:59:22 I hope Norns aren't sentient 06:59:28 so… kmc's link basically says that there are voting systems that don't allow tactical voting when infinitely many voters are involved, but they're noncomputable? 06:59:29 If they are, I'm ... rather horrible 06:59:32 So! Terminology bit here. 06:59:51 But I expect, everything is mathematics. So, even the universe is mathematics. But, not necessarily mathematics that has exactly one solution all the time; it can be no solution, multiple solutions, and can even be uncomputable. 06:59:57 "sentient" means roughly "can feel sensations". Things like dolphins are dogs are sapient. You are probably talking about sapience. 07:00:05 ais523: and they contain 'invisible dictators' which are? 07:00:15 Sgeo: Just to clarify, you know I'm not serious about thinking you're a sociopath, right? 07:00:22 er, *are sentient 07:00:31 Bike: thanks for the correction 07:00:49 Bike: wait, did you correct a veiled insult into an actual insult? 07:00:49 Bike, somewhat, yes 07:00:54 Also, the author of a book can make any of the characters dead and/or illogical however they want, isn't it? 07:00:57 ais523: no? 07:01:18 I wouldn't have mentioned it except that the question for Sgeo is actually whether Norns are sentient, rather than sapient, since he's just worried about inflicting pain on them, not selling them insurance. 07:01:22 zzo38: if you prove to someone that they don't exist, do they stop existing? 07:01:23 Bike, although I know someone who is somewhat concerned about what I (and others) would do if sapient computer programs are created 07:01:34 so if you ask "are infinitely large societies governed without tactical voting all dictatorships?" the answer depends on whether you're using classical or constructive logic? 07:01:38 (or sentient?) 07:01:43 He uses the word conscious. 07:01:54 kmc: I hope the answer depends on the axiom of choice 07:01:56 ais523: If the proof is correct, they didn't exist at the time either, so they won't stop either. 07:01:56 "conscious" is good for that yeah, since it's more common :P 07:01:58 it might even be relevant! 07:02:06 zzo38: hmm, indeed 07:02:26 I'm pretty convinced that people have made robots that can feel hunger. It's an odd thing to think about. 07:02:33 Norns do have brains that detect pain, and react to such 07:02:39 So either way they won't stop existing. 07:02:42 Lemme upload a picture of the norn brain 07:02:44 Sgeo: what's this meaning of "norn"? 07:02:56 ais523: it's a thing in an alife game called Creatures. 07:03:15 the only meaning I know offhand is a specific mythological figure who's in charge of valkyries 07:03:18 Sgeo: I don't know much about Creatures but it doesn't seem like they're any more complicated than, like, nematodes. 07:03:49 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/Creatures/chichi_brain.PNG 07:04:11 ais523: Basically they're virtual animals with such things as distinguishable "personalities", and C&C of their bodies through an artificial neural network. And they have some genetics. 07:04:17 drive is things like hunger, pain, boredom 07:04:21 Bike: hmm 07:04:31 Sgeo: How many neurons is this, out of curiosity? 07:04:37 Nematodes have I think... 293? 07:04:38 I should change my pants 07:04:40 attention and decision are the outputs: What they're focusing on, and what the action is 07:04:44 I went to the store and bought more 07:04:52 btw, I think my own personal barrier for "when should something be considered sentient" is "the thing can communicate and add meaningfully to a discussion" 07:04:54 because the fly is busted on this one 07:04:55 Of course nematodal neurons are more complicated, but hey. 07:05:07 ais523: define meaningfully 07:05:11 this can in some cases include unborn children, and many animals 07:05:22 unborn children wat 07:05:25 SirCmpwn: you end up knowing more/different than if it hadn't contributed to the discussion 07:05:27 comb is 40*13 = 520 I think (if I counted the verbs right) 07:05:45 SirCmpwn: it's possible for unborn children to communicate, once they're negative-young enough, isn't it? 07:05:45 Bike, also, the lobes and dendrites all have pieces of code in a weird language 07:05:49 ah, nematodes have 302. 07:05:51 That's not visible on there 07:05:53 or rather c. elegans do. 07:05:57 the mother can feel the inside of her womb 07:06:00 ais523: it's barely possible for them to communicate *after* birth 07:06:11 I would say the most important thing is the drive->comb dendrites 07:06:16 Wow, you know. C. elegans have 1031 cells, and of those 302 are neurons. That's like, almost a third! 07:06:26 babies come out bumbling, stupid, and crippled, and become intelligent over the course of several months 07:06:30 SirCmpwn: they can communicate needing attemption versus not needing attention 07:06:33 even from birth 07:06:37 ais523: so can a dog 07:06:41 yeah 07:06:42 dogs are sentient 07:06:47 aren't yhey? 07:06:49 *they? 07:06:54 as in Bike's definition of "capable of sensation"? 07:06:57 Since each comb neuron corresponds to a particular course of action to take 07:07:01 SirCmpwn: as in my definition 07:07:04 Like "eat seed" 07:07:07 but I think pretty much everyone's 07:07:08 state your defintion 07:07:09 SirCmpwn: That's the generally-accepted notion of sentient actually. 07:07:15 And drive corresponds to things like pain and hunger 07:07:19 pikhq: indeed, but there was confusion earlier 07:07:24 SirCmpwn: Star Trek "sentient" is a weird mutation of the term. 07:07:32 Do you think, everything is mathematics, or do you think, everything is physics, or something else different? 07:07:33 Meaning basically "sapient". 07:07:42 * Bike is pretty jaded to "can computers think" sorts of arguments, if it's not obvious. 07:08:01 I don't know what the response lobe does 07:08:04 Of course, in a lot of contexts they're practically interchangeable. A sentient computer and a sapient computer would both be rather shocking. 07:08:05 I forgot about it :/ 07:08:14 (though the sapient computer more so) 07:08:16 zzo38: isn't it possible that mathematics is physics, and so everything is both mathematics and physics? 07:08:30 Sgeo: Yeah, it definitely sounds like norns have a lot of their behavioral repetoire pre-baked, but that's to be expected. 07:08:35 ais523: I don't think so! I think physics is mathematics. 07:08:52 sorry, the point I was making earlier is that babies are not special and I wouldn't even call them capable of intelligence until many months after birth 07:09:08 "intelligence" here meaning coherent thought like you and I are capable of 07:09:20 SirCmpwn: So, "sapient". 07:09:27 Bike, well, yes, but not as you'd might think. The drive->comb connections are random at first, and the dendrites wander based on reward/punishment 07:09:29 yes 07:09:31 Like you and I... that is your self-centerism 07:09:41 zzo38: wat 07:09:42 Yes, babies take several months to become sapient. 07:09:44 But they have "instincts" in their genomes that make them dream of, say, eating a seed and being rewarded for it 07:09:45 zzo38: is it possible for physics to be mathematics, but mathematics to not be physics? 07:09:54 Sgeo: I still haven't played Creatures despite how cool it seems. Weird, huh? 07:10:07 ais523: Well, not entirely. Mathematics is beyond physics. 07:10:12 ok 07:10:16 Bike, http://creaturesdockingstation.com/ 07:10:17 Or, at least, that is what I mean. 07:10:33 Bike: Hey, I last played a videogame for very long in 2010 or so, so... 07:10:47 Uh, the first screenshot on there isn't DS 07:10:49 videogames can be good 07:10:54 I last played a videogame a few hours ago 07:11:05 Sgeo: yeah, i still have it open, i just haven't gotten around to it. 07:11:09 in fact, one recent enough to have a copyright date of 2012 07:11:19 But have you played Super ASCII MZX Town a few minutes ago? 07:11:23 zzo38: no 07:11:24 My queue just keeps growing and growing. 07:11:30 you could probably have guessed that 07:11:30 Don't bother with the registration thing though, I think the Warp is down anyway 07:11:37 Just get the offline option 07:11:47 pikhq: hmm… I don't keep a queue 07:11:49 Have you played any Famicom game with the copyright date 2013? 07:11:52 rather I play what I feel like playing 07:11:53 zzo38: no 07:12:01 ais523: It's metaphorical in this case. 07:12:02 I'm not sure if I've played any game with the copyright date 2013 07:12:13 I mean, I jump around between games a lot, and replay them often 07:12:14 Or else public domain; even if it is not copyright. 07:12:17 (Some are public domain) 07:12:32 I would like to have a word with whoever designed scissor packaging that requires scissors to open 07:12:34 I've also got a giant queue of... every other form of media, really. 07:12:40 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 07:12:49 SirCmpwn: Yes, I also want to complain to them too 07:12:56 I have a big pile of books 07:12:57 (if there were a god, I'd call him a dick for even having "anhedonia" in the same universe as me) 07:12:58 literally 07:12:59 :( 07:13:16 i also have a phone with an increasingly more irritating ebook reader 07:13:18 Bike: so do I, but most of them I'm not intending to read again in the near future, or possibly at all 07:13:28 that's just it i haven't read them 07:13:30 they call for me... 07:13:46 and I don't have an ebook reader that isn't also a general purpose computer 07:14:04 They still make machines that aren't also general purpose computers? 07:14:08 (all general purpose computers are ebook readers) 07:14:16 Bike: sure, in fact they're becoming more common, not less 07:14:24 Whoa. 07:14:29 basically because they would be general purpose computers but have artificial restrictions so that they aren't 07:15:10 That is why I make the computers which are very general purpose computers with no restrictions other than the security stuff that the user can always override anyways. 07:15:30 or to put it another way, specific purpose computers made using general purpose computers 07:15:33 (And to include instructions in the book, tell you how to override, how to program it, how everything is working.) 07:16:02 zzo38: yes, I'd be very surprised if a computer you made was locked down 07:17:00 To really ensure general purposes, to ensure it is made so that it can be made anyone can clone even not needing patents to do so (even if patented technology must be used, such that it can be made the same easily without it too), however, having a trademark license so that if someone makes the wrong clone, that they cannot use the same name. 07:17:10 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:18:09 ais523: Well, there are some restrictions on it but you can easily remove them without causing problems with existing software, so it is not a problem. 07:18:47 (Such as a reprogrammable ROM chip is normally not reprogrammable unless you move the corresponding jumper, which is clearly labeled in the instruction book.) 07:21:12 And I mean really general purpose computer that you can even just turn on, and then type in the program codes and it will run (although you can also load the already existing programs too, even if they are already compiled). 07:21:34 Mostly PC BIOS computers don't have that anymore but they should make them such. 07:21:46 The Aristocrats! 07:22:23 What about aristocrats? 07:23:39 What is the point of the Continue bit in the envelopes in AY8910? It seems to be the same shape as the ones that do continue than the ones tat don't (since you can also use the Hold bit). 07:23:52 zzo38: Bike's referencing a famous joke pattern which ends up saying "the aristocrats" as a non sequitur 07:24:17 the joke pattern's sufficiently famous that you can reference the joke pattern just by using the punchline, the rest of the joke is irrelevant 07:24:26 OK 07:24:27 although if you do it that way, it isn't actually funy 07:24:29 *funny 07:24:34 zzo's version has way less rape, admittedly. 07:25:01 Version of what? 07:25:11 The joke. 07:25:32 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:26:51 having fewer rapes sounds like a good thing, generally speaking 07:27:05 unless something else bad increases to compensate, then it might or might not be a good thing 07:27:12 zzo: I'm not sure hardware envelopes make sense on chips with that few gates :o 07:27:14 It's true. 07:27:41 What if it's "rape" by the older definition of "seize" or "capture", ais523? 07:27:46 madbr: But they do have hardware envelopes. I don't know how many gates AY8910 has. 07:27:57 In context it is not, taneb. 07:28:02 Okay7 07:28:14 Taneb: then it depends on what's being seized and captured, and using the more modern words would be helpful in order to reduce confusion and avoid bad connotations 07:28:16 Okay7 is like "Gr8" but not as good 07:28:39 Okay with a salute 07:28:44 Yeah, fewer rapes seems like a generally good policy. 07:28:57 hmm… today seems to be the ais523 "have I mentioned I'm lawful good yet" day 07:29:05 3 march, I must remember that 07:29:12 `? ais523 07:29:14 Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. 07:29:16 "btw, rape? bad" 07:30:26 `run echo "Agent \"I\" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good." > wisdom/ais523 07:30:29 No output. 07:30:32 `? ais523 07:30:34 Agent "I" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 07:30:51 actually, I think I'm almost always lawful good, just more likely to point it out on the 3rd of March 07:30:53 What character encoding do you want to use? 07:31:01 UTF-EBCDIC 07:31:05 zzo38: utf-8 is a generally useful character encoding 07:31:08 In here is not 3rd of march, yet. 07:31:12 UCS-2.625 07:31:17 Bike: ouch for reminding me that exists 07:31:17 UTF-EBCDIC is not ASCII so don't use that. 07:31:21 :D 07:31:29 Use UTF-8 if you want to, though, or CP437, or whatever else. 07:31:34 zzo38: there are a lot of encodings that aren't ASCII 07:31:37 most of them, in fact 07:31:37 CP437 is also not ASCII 07:31:46 ISO/IEC 8859-14 07:31:48 zzo38 likes supersets of ascii. 07:31:48 UTF-8 is, at least, compatible with ASCII 07:31:49 what's cp435 again 07:31:58 So you are wrong CP437 is ASCII, and so is UTF-8. 07:32:03 How about SHIFT-JIS? 07:32:09 "good encoding" 07:32:12 madbr: CP437 is DOS. 07:32:26 SHIFT probably isn't supposed to be in allcaps, but I feel loud. 07:32:27 zzo38: Oh, apparently there are multiple CP437s? 07:32:33 Namely, the character set used by DOS in the US. 07:32:38 I was thinking of the one that has 0x01 representing ☺ and all that. 07:32:43 Bike: what about SHIFT-JIS, except you replace the shift codes with gambling games and add network transparency 07:32:46 shachaf: No, just one CP437 the others are other codepages. 07:32:48 the common ones are utf8 win32 (\r\n), utf8 linux, latin1 win32, latin1 linux, and then shift jis and a couple of other popular asian encodings 07:32:55 TIS-620 07:32:55 ais523: Yeah, that's CP437. 07:32:56 ais523: good encoding. w/o sacrequotes 07:32:57 Yes 0x01 is the happy face in CP437 07:33:00 scare* 07:33:20 and by latin1 I mean codepage whatever (the one used in win32, not the one with the dumb extended control characters) 07:33:32 madbr: windows-1252? 07:33:42 yeah 07:33:56 it also has some freakish iso name 07:34:06 I use whatever encoding I need depending on the program being used, but is usually ASCII. Sometimes some parts of programs might use other encodings even though it is mostly ASCII, such as VGMCK which is ASCII except for GD3 tags which are UTF-8 and are converted into UTF-16. 07:34:07 madbr, Code page 437 07:34:15 but everybody calls it latin-1 because, well, it's a zillion times more mnemotechnic 07:34:20 Shift-JIS is perhaps the worst encoding devised. 07:34:30 Don't call Windows-1252 Latin-1! 07:34:31 pikhq: worse than the one I suggested just above? 07:34:35 Also, don't call it ANSI. 07:34:38 madbr: latin-1 is a different encoding 07:34:42 People who call things ANSI are evil. 07:34:44 Since UTF-16 is not ASCII, it uses UTF-8 so that you can still use ASCII, and UTF-8 is otherwise the closest thing to convert to UTF-16. 07:34:46 latin-1 = iso-8859-1 ≠ windows-1252 07:34:49 ais523: Not worse than that. 07:34:50 (Things other than ANSI, that is.) 07:34:53 (The institute.) 07:34:54 ISO-8859-1 is latin1 is not Windows-1252 is not CP437 07:34:55 ais: it's IBM's original version 07:34:56 pikhq, it's probably just the most known weird country-specific encoding thing... eastern europe had a lot, didn't it? 07:34:59 also windows calls windows-1252 ansi for no obvious reason 07:35:00 ais: which nobody used 07:35:01 shachaf: "ANSI" is weirdo Windows-speak for "legacy charset". 07:35:19 shachaf: Likewise "Unicode" is weirdo Windows-speak for "UTF-16". 07:35:20 Bike: they are helpfully numbered from latin-1 up to latin-15 or so 07:35:20 (Actually it also accepts CESU-8, as well as overlong encodings, but you don't have to use those if you don't want to.) 07:35:26 ais523: beautiful 07:35:27 pikhq: does it have a defined endianness? 07:35:31 Bike: It's also the worst. 07:35:37 That's pretty worst. 07:35:37 ais523: UTF-16LE. 07:35:41 pikhq: Well, sometimes Windows people mean "Unicode" by "Unicode". 07:35:42 oh god 07:35:45 not utf16 07:35:45 Because Windows is only little-endian. 07:35:46 die 07:35:58 everything's little endian 07:36:00 Actually, I have no idea how Cyrillic was typed up. Or is typed up for that matter. 07:36:09 four thr thr fivee 07:36:11 What were they using on pirate C64s in the 80s? 07:36:28 Bike: cyrillic has a comparable number of letters to latin, doesn't it? 07:36:33 Windows is little endian even on CPUs that are usually big endian. 07:36:34 yeah 07:36:37 so probably just using ordinary keyboards except relabeled 07:36:47 I meant the encoding, but yeah I see your point. 07:36:51 Maybe China then... 07:37:04 well, i already know how weird chinese input methods get 07:37:16 pikhq: you mean on Alpha? 07:37:22 Also MIPS. 07:37:27 All the commands in the program are ASCII, and the comments can be whatever encodings you want (except ASCII control codes), so the program correctly follows the principle of extended ASCII. 07:37:31 there's a mips version of windows?!? 07:37:36 NT 4! 07:37:40 :o 07:37:43 crazy 07:38:19 zzo38: what about identifiers? 07:38:35 that's the main place where you might want to accept outside-ASCII characters in source code 07:38:37 oh, and string constants 07:38:41 even more so 07:38:58 actually I think most code is still stored as latin1 07:39:03 (and character constants if you don't consider them a special case of string constants) 07:39:15 madbr: most code is in ASCII, and thus can't be distinguished between latin-1 and UTF-8 07:39:20 with windows cr-lf or just lf depending on the coder 07:39:20 except when I write … in a comment out of habit 07:39:30 and it depends more on the editor and OS than the coder 07:39:35 yeah 07:39:43 I think I usually use utf-8 because i dump «spinäl t©p» sorts of things everywhere 07:39:49 ais523: Those things are not applicable to this program. Identifiers for macros are just one character and only ASCII, and string constants are only used in GD3 tags, which are UTF-16, so it accepts UTF-8 there and will convert them to UTF-16. 07:40:00 On Linux systems, stuff is usually UTF-8. 07:40:23 (to the point where I generally think you should just say "a string is in UTF-8. Period.") 07:40:32 i missed a discussion of CP 437 :( 07:40:34 And on Windows, Microsoft is fucking crazy. 07:40:35 In other programs with string constants such as in C, you should allow any characters, and just encode the bytes as is. So, if it is UTF-8, then your program will work with UTF-8. 07:40:38 also for console programs, windows gives you filenames etc in latin-1 07:40:48 madbr: Not quite. It's crazier. 07:40:52 pikhq: bush hid the facts 07:40:52 (well, codepage whatever but still) 07:40:54 pikhq: actually isn't "take encoding from locale" the usual default? and aren't most locales latin-n by default but people tend to use the utf-8 versions nowadays? 07:40:55 pikhq: I use CP437 when working on Linux. 07:41:23 -!- Gracenotes_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:41:25 what's worse than cp437 is that there's a different version that windows sometimes uses 07:41:32 madbr: Windows has a very comprehensive scheme for working with arbitrary charsets. They *refuse* to extend it to handle UTF-8. 07:41:39 which has no point except it screws up your DOS programs 07:41:43 Since the Linux console is only 256 character codes anyways, then Unicode is too much and is too complicated. 07:41:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:41:59 UTF-8 data can still be worked with though, in programs that are using UTF-8 data, but not in other programs, please. 07:42:02 madbr: The only way of using Unicode on Windows is to use their non-conformant wchar_t interfaces. 07:42:08 hmm… the Linux console understands the code for "enter UTF-8 mode" 07:42:12 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:42:13 can it not render it once you've done that? 07:42:17 Along with their ultra-weird UTF-16 entry point. 07:42:27 pikhq: and wchar_t isn't designed for utf-8 07:42:31 true 07:42:32 ais523: Almost all distros default to UTF-8 thought. 07:42:34 it's designed for utf-32, really 07:42:41 ais523: Yes, but on Windows it's UTF-16. 07:42:48 wide character strings are meant to be fixed-width 07:42:50 ais523: Yes, turn on UTF-8 but there is also the code to turn off the UTF-8. 07:42:53 utf-8 is multibyte character strings, instead 07:43:05 zzo38: that's so you don't end up stuck in utf-8 mode forever 07:43:08 also case sensitivity is based on a large LUT 07:43:09 ais523: The trick is, char* strings on Windows cannot be UTF-8. 07:43:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:43:19 that gets updated depending on your windows version 07:43:26 ais523: Yes, so you can switch depending on what programs you are using, then. 07:43:27 The entire OS only does legacy charsets that way. 07:43:31 Ever. 07:43:47 so two files that are different can become the same if the unicode char gets added to the table 07:43:51 really there should be a "utf8char" type 07:43:57 or mbchar 07:43:57 pikhq: That is, using the Windows API calls; using your own programs they can be whatever encoding you want to. 07:43:59 So, you have to rewrite your code to handle Unicode. 07:44:03 that represents one byte of a multibyte encoding 07:44:10 and you have to rewrite your code to handle Unicode /anyway/ 07:44:17 and even then it won't handle Turkish correctly 07:44:40 tbh in the tool I'm working on I just disallow anything over >128 07:44:44 Usually I don't handle Unicode or anything since instead I will just use ASCII, and depending what it is, using UTF-8 might still work with it, and possibly other encodings too. 07:44:48 what's wrong with turkish 07:44:55 madbr: What took are you working on? 07:44:56 bike: dotless i 07:44:56 Even though their API is set so the meaning of char* is determined by whatever charset is in use, and they actually have it ultra-mega-crazy to work with stuff like Shift-JIS. 07:45:06 Bike: it has capitalization rules that are inconsistent with other languages 07:45:09 oh that's a fun character 07:45:14 ais523: Yeah, but a lot of code will "just work" with UTF-8. 07:45:16 bike : also dotted capital I 07:45:27 Especially on Windows, where people actually use Shift-JIS in char* strings. 07:45:42 bike : essentially it uses dotless i to represent the same sound as japanese 'u' 07:45:45 pikhq: Yes, depending what it is you might not have to do anything special, so you can use UTF-8 or whatever if you want to. 07:45:57 pikhq: so what's the problem? NIH syndrome? 07:46:02 madbr: and that character isn't in unicode? 07:46:04 it seems like a weird thing to not support along with other encodings 07:46:06 ais523: I have not the foggiest clue. 07:46:10 fair enough 07:46:10 bike: no it's in unicode 07:46:21 bike: but that totally screws up capitalization 07:46:30 since the caps version of i isn't I anymore 07:46:39 But now, Windows dev communities are the most confused about how character encoding works. 07:46:47 baking capitalization into unicode seems like a bad idea anyway 07:46:51 And especially Unicode. 07:46:53 'It is considered particularly ironic that Atatürk himself, in his lengthy speech to the new Parliament in 1927, used a style of Ottoman which sounded so alien to later listeners that it had to be "translated" three times into modern Turkish: first in 1963, again in 1986, and most recently in 1995' 07:47:11 kmc: once for each coup AM I RIGHT FOLKS 07:47:11 Unicode is full of problems and too much complexity. 07:47:24 bike: you have to, because the win32 file system is case sensitive 07:47:25 btw, anyone know how that Cyrillic letter that looks like a backwards R is pronounced? I'm guessing neutral vowel, but could do with confirmation 07:47:38 bike: so you have to process case 07:47:44 ais523 : 'ya' 07:47:46 How worth it would it be to write an Apache Wave server in Haskell 07:47:49 Nevertheless simply allowing UTF-8 in some parts of the program just in order to convert to UTF-16 if the output format uses it, is not complicated. 07:47:53 madbr: hmm, OK 07:47:54 not worth anything 07:48:05 ais523 : the one that's neutral vowel looks like bI 07:48:09 (I'd say Microsoft's failure to support UTF-8 is the single greatest reason for people thinking Unicode is a 16-bit encoding) 07:48:18 how strong is the 'a'? I'm guessing short 'a', is it strong or is it reasonably neutral? 07:48:20 I seem to remember a natural language that used capital letters in its orthography, but I can't remember... 07:48:21 That is why VGMCK accepts UTF-8 in GD3 tags. 07:48:32 pikhq: that might well play into Microsoft's hands 07:48:36 ais523 : russian doesn't have vowel length 07:48:41 if they're attempting to have the web misencoded for some reason 07:48:44 ais523 : or strong vs weak vowels 07:48:50 madbr: hmm 07:48:56 so long a and short a are heard the same by a russian speaker? 07:49:07 russian has only normal a 07:49:16 (Text macros in VGMCK are named by a single ASCII character; any bytes >= 128 are not acceptable.) 07:49:16 ais523: This is a stupid legacy decision that predates things like "broadband Internet". 07:49:20 madbr: yeah but how does it correspond to English letters? 07:49:28 pikhq: doens't predate dial-up 07:49:30 *doesn't 07:49:36 uuuugh i'm groaning in sympathy for phonologists i know, guys 07:49:38 At least to me is reasonable like that. 07:49:40 ais523: They made this mistake way back in NT 3.1 days. 07:49:50 This actually predates commercial ISPs. 07:50:08 I think BBSes were older, weren't they? 07:50:25 but I don't really see how it matters 07:50:26 Yes, but they weren't Internet service providers. 07:50:30 ais523 : there are two sets of vowels, they call them "hard" vs "soft"... essentially normal vs y+vowel 07:51:04 madbr: yeah, basically my problem is, if I tried to pronounce Russian, would I be accidentally saying letters that didn't exist, or would what I said be perceived as a Russian letter whether it was English short a or English long a? 07:51:24 phonemes. phonemes that don't exist. 07:51:36 err, yes 07:51:50 I'm tired, OK :) 07:52:00 me too :( 07:52:13 like, Japanese doesn't have a separate "l" and "r", but the letters are separate in English 07:52:22 hard: А Э Ы О У = a e o u (a eh japanese-u o oo) 07:52:31 And in fact Japanese "r" is not the same vowel as either. 07:52:37 isn't japanese "r" more like "d" 07:52:43 pikhq: indeed 07:52:46 american english "d" I guess 07:52:49 Bike: No, but it sounds similarish. 07:52:50 god this is hard to talk about 07:53:04 but Japanese people will hear the two english letters the same, and thus they can be used interchangeably by an English speaker attempting to speak Japanese 07:53:11 they'll be understood equally well either way 07:53:12 Bike: ɾ is the IPA. 07:53:20 back in high school I spent like an hour trying to pronounce "akira" japanesely once 07:53:24 or equally badly 07:53:32 soft: Я Е И Ю (ya ye/yo yi yu) = "ya yeh/yo yee yoo" 07:53:35 * pikhq actually pronounces that sucker right 07:53:39 damn you. 07:53:43 i just want to talk about my animes! 07:53:47 Though my pitch accent is awful. 07:53:52 in dictionaries they spell yo as Ё I think 07:53:57 yeah i have no even idea on pitch accent 07:53:58 My friend's mom (who is a lawyer) told me that I should just take the job (40k) without any negotiation or complaints, because I need a job on my resume 07:54:05 Bike: What animes? 07:54:09 (my /actual/ problem is "I have some Cyrillic which I suspect is English words transliterated into Cyrillic, how do I attempt to deduce what the original English was?") 07:54:11 i sort of understand how chinese pitch works, i think, but japanese aaaaagh what 07:54:15 zzo38: the film, Akira. 07:54:21 Sgeo: 40k is more than I'm making 07:54:35 ais523, erm, in USD? 07:54:37 Bike: The trick with Japanese pitch accent is, it's not as firm as Chinese pitch at *all*. 07:54:38 ais523 : read them and figure out how close they are to US? 07:54:41 even in USD 07:54:44 o.O 07:54:48 unless the dollar is really low right now 07:54:50 pikhq: yeah, that probably doesn't help. 07:54:59 I'm hardly paid anything, although hopefully that'll change soon 07:55:03 It's like English stress. Saying it wrong sounds wrong, *but* each accent has their own "right" way. 07:55:14 pikhq: and saying it wrong is also entirely intelligible 07:55:15 pikhq: it seems like with chinese pitch is just part of the phoneme but with japanese... yeah, like that. 07:55:20 ais523: Exactly. 07:55:33 I have a really odd accent, a lot of people can barely understand me when I start taking quickly 07:55:33 well, nothing wrong with sounding like a robot for a while i guess 07:55:56 Perhaps because I drop loads of consonants so that "cone" and "coat" become almost homophones 07:56:10 speaking foreign languages isn't the same thing as sounding indistinguishable from a native 07:56:18 yeah 07:56:25 ais523: That's the ideal state. 07:56:29 if you're close enough, there's no ambiguity 07:56:33 It's just also damn near impossible to get. :P 07:56:42 pikhq: it's past the point of return on investment 07:57:09 * pikhq nods 07:57:10 even though you're saying one of the sounds wrong, it can't be another sound because it's not closer to the wrong sounds than to the right one 07:57:20 like when you're using the wrong kind of "t" 07:57:34 sounds wrong but you can't change a word into another one 07:57:38 well there are several sounds in English that don't exist in specific other languages 07:57:44 e.g. French doesn't have a "th" 07:57:52 yeah "th" is the main one 07:57:53 but that doesn't prevent native French speakers pronouncing English intelligibly 07:57:55 which 'th'? 07:58:00 both 07:58:01 Both. 07:58:01 Bike: either of them 07:58:04 dang 07:58:12 actually there are three in English 07:58:14 but two of them are quite similar 07:58:15 'th' is actually a fairly rare sound 07:58:22 ais: 3????? 07:58:30 ais523: Maybe in your accent. 07:58:30 I can't remember the examples offhand 07:58:40 2 certaintly but not 34 07:58:42 uh 07:58:44 2 certaintly but not 3 07:58:50 pikhq: hmm… I have a surprisingly average accent, actually 07:58:54 probably depends on accent 07:59:03 one of my parents came from London, the other from Sheffield, and I live in Birmingham 07:59:11 ais523: I'm American. :P 07:59:16 oh right 07:59:23 We've actually had some phoneme mergers. 07:59:39 the "rare" sounds english has are "th" and the distinction of tense vs lax vowels 07:59:41 personally I have an accent pretty close to TV midwestern but apparently there are differences too subtle for me 07:59:44 well London is pretty far south, and Sheffield is considered to be northerly unless you live in Hexham 07:59:58 (aka long-tense-diphthongs vs short-lax-vowels 08:00:01 Yeah, mine is Midwestern-ish. 08:00:03 (Hexham is further north than any sane person would live) 08:00:17 But then, I'm physically Midwestern-ish. 08:00:20 (unless they were Scottish, or Finnish, and have even further north people to compare to) 08:00:36 Stupid southeners thinking Sheffield is north... 08:00:41 ee/ih, ay/eh, ah/a, o/oh, oo/ooh, uh, er 08:00:49 Taneb: yeah 08:00:54 well it's north compared to Birmingham 08:00:55 also "er" is rare 08:01:02 (the english version) 08:01:03 I personally think of sheffield as being towards the south end of tnorth 08:01:05 *north 08:01:13 whereas london is towards the east end of south 08:01:16 It's further south than York! 08:01:17 ha, ha, i'm using a non-rhotic accent!!! 08:01:19 and the english version of "r" is rare (but "r" sounds in general are common) 08:01:27 And York's like 100 miles to the south of me! 08:01:31 Taneb: apparently londoners think of /birmingham/ as north 08:01:45 ais523, that's why nobody likes London 08:01:50 * shachaf keeps misreading "York" as "New York". 08:01:52 and possibly even oxford and milton keynes, but that would need verification 08:02:14 Not that I can think of any reason anyone would care about the old one. 08:02:29 shViewth: the old one has existe dlonger 08:02:30 also, v/w split isn't that common (a lot of languages have only 1 of these) 08:03:05 w is arguably a form of u 08:03:09 and the "zh" sound in stuff like pleasure, garage... isn't too common either 08:03:22 "shViewth"? 08:03:24 ais523 : depends on the language 08:03:37 shachaf: while typing that, my client also jumped to the top of the scrollback buffer 08:03:42 ais523 : in some languages is pretty much a fast vowel yes 08:03:48 In Latin, u/v/w is one letter, as is i/j/y 08:03:54 somehow, I cannot avoid underestimating Konversation's scope for bizarre typos 08:04:01 ais523 : but in a LOT of languages, including english, w is a consonant really 08:04:07 Taneb: y is a different letter in Greek loanwords 08:04:12 isn't it? 08:04:12 ais523, touche 08:04:14 and patterns with consonants 08:04:24 madbr: w is the consonant form of u 08:04:35 Taneb : I'm pretty sure y is another variant of u actually 08:04:37 just like y is the consonant form of i 08:04:42 and also f 08:04:42 or, hmm 08:04:59 f isn't a form of u, surely 08:04:59 no y is greek upsilon 08:05:11 f is from greek digamma 08:05:39 oh, I see 08:05:40 which is phonecian waw 08:05:48 The symbol comes from digamma, but it's closer to phi nowadays. 08:05:58 upsilon is also from phonecian waw 08:06:26 well, phi became English ph 08:06:32 -!- Taneb has set topic: #esoteric welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Channel is publicly logged. You can find the URL in the log.. 08:06:33 Nothing here 08:06:35 but ph and f are pronounced very similarly 08:06:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ph%C3%B6nizisch-5Sprachen.svg chart 08:06:45 oonbotti responds to topic changes? 08:06:46 Taneb: Please consider whether you can answer your own question. 08:06:47 so latin had f u (digamma which disappeared from greek, and upsilon basically) 08:06:59 and then latin imported y for greek loanwords 08:07:06 so it ended up with f u y 08:07:08 Taneb: because it starts with a #. dumb huh 08:07:10 #hey 08:07:15 nno? ok. 08:07:21 #esoteric al 08:07:21 Nothing here 08:07:28 #esoteric Fueue 08:07:29 Nothing here 08:07:36 good bot 08:07:42 that's a weird error response 08:08:22 then in middle age they started making u pointy when starting words 08:08:39 well in Roman times it was always pointy 08:08:51 at least in uppercase 08:08:59 possibly because it was easier to engrave that way? 08:09:16 vvvvvv 08:09:16 roman only really had one u sound 08:09:28 so it didn't make sense to have two letters 08:10:31 but yeah in the middle age languages like french, italian and english had developed a separate v and j sound 08:11:02 so people ran with the shape variation and turned them into distinct letters 08:12:17 germans came up with a different solution to that problem 08:12:22 which is why we now have w 08:12:59 although english w != german w 08:13:04 *≠ 08:14:18 in english, w apparently was a replacement for wynn 08:15:46 anyways, long story short, western european languages have lots of labial sounds 08:16:07 which is why waw has been split into 5 different variants :D 08:17:42 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: ie ie ie ie ie). 08:21:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:26:16 I would like to put my weight behind Underload as featured language 08:29:09 Taneb: the problem is that elliott's no good at writing featured language blurbs 08:29:13 and he won't let me write one for my own language 08:29:18 so someone else has to 08:29:29 It's time to OPEN A TEXT EDITOR 08:30:37 ais523, was Underload inspired by Muriel? 08:36:02 no, it was inspired by Overload 08:36:11 which wasn't really inspired by anything 08:36:14 Underload is a stack-based esoteric programming language invented by ais523. It is effectively a functional language, as the only available form of flow control moves data from the data stack into the program. Due to its simplicity, among other factors, it has been useful in proving other languages (such as Thutu and FALSE) Turing-complete. 08:36:29 how long is that compared to the existing blurbs? 08:36:48 57 words 08:36:57 pikhq: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_summary.html has per-day number-of-messages/characters for individual people. 08:37:02 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:37:11 Quite short, actually 08:37:17 oh yeah I did a stack based functional language too back in the day 08:37:18 (Hasn't been updated in the last week or two, must do that.) 08:37:26 Malbolge's is 99 words 08:38:05 Although Malbolge's is the longest 08:38:33 (There's also all other kind of graphs there.) 08:38:41 mine was called tabarnac 08:39:15 ais523, did you ever decide if Trustfuck is a metacircular compiler? 08:39:21 no 08:39:37 Taneb: I'm thinking in terms of visual width, rather than words 08:39:59 Yeah, it's quite short 08:40:18 (Updated.) 08:41:23 My head hurts from the mathematical stupidity 08:41:28 http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/19jqan/is_pi_proof_of_continuous_space/c8ou5gj?context=3 08:41:47 My throat hurts for reasons I know not 08:42:01 "A rational number is not necessarily an integer. 3.14 is rational, 3.14 recurring is not. A rational number is one that can be subjected to an expression and give a sane answer. Demonstration: 3.14/5.69 = 17.8666. Both sides of the equation have sane numbers, and are therefore rational." 08:42:19 The first sentence is okay 08:42:25 And the first clause of the second sentence 08:42:29 After that... 08:45:51 http://sprunge.us/NBXA wordnet concurs that rational $\approx$ sane. 08:46:24 I like to call them demythologized numbers, though. 08:46:28 It has more flair. 08:48:06 I replied 08:48:20 @tell Bike But that's not equivalent at ALL! 08:48:20 Consider it noted. 08:48:29 (I thought it needed more emphasis.) 08:49:37 I just realized that the phrase "3.14 recurring" is ambiguous 08:49:48 Is it 3.141414141414... or 3.1444444444444... 08:50:04 Or 3.14314314314314314314... 08:50:24 Or 3.14.14.14.14.14.14... 08:50:47 Taneb's option doesn't make any sense, though. 08:51:23 My option makes perfect sense when you remember that the person who said "3.14 recurring" is an idiot 08:51:57 3.143.143.143.143.14... makes a lot more sense 08:52:09 (who's the idiot now, huh?) 08:55:28 In other news, there is evidence suggesting Snoop whatever animal he is now reads Homestuck 08:55:47 3.141.3.141.3.141.3.14... maybe it goes back and forth. 08:56:29 Taneb : as long as it's not mlp :D 08:57:08 madbr, nothing wrong with mlp. At least one person in this channel watches mlp. 08:57:54 And it isn't me! 09:00:33 my brother watches mlp :D 09:00:50 Nothing wrong with Snoop Dogg either 09:00:51 was saying it jokingly, I can't really criticize tbh 09:01:22 there was this "smoke weed every day" meme not too long ago 09:01:30 I think it's dead now though 09:01:34 "At least one person in this channel does X" != "nothing wrong with X". (In general, not just about the Window System.) 09:02:56 fizzie, those statements were only loosely related 09:03:08 yeah I'd be the biggest hypocrite if I really tarred on mlp stuff 09:04:43 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:05:55 There is the music in Famicompo with "smoke weed every day", I don't really like that one much. 09:07:42 the one I made? :D 09:08:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:09:53 Yes. I do like your other musics though. 09:10:23 made a really nice song recentily -> http://madbrain.devzero.co.uk/Discohouse_Amargeddon.mp3 09:11:01 SMOKE WEED EVERYDAY 09:11:20 It will never die in kmc's heart. 09:11:40 isn't snoop dogg named snoop lion now 09:11:48 My flight leaves SFO at ~06:00 on Wednesday. 09:11:49 Maybe 09:11:50 yeah and I think he's doing reggae 09:11:51 kmc: Why? 09:11:55 His facebook page isn't 09:11:56 just a true fact 09:12:04 Caltrain doesn't go there that early. 09:12:13 Perhaps the best thing to do would be to go the evening before. 09:12:28 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:12:32 seems like 09:12:49 if you want to get to the airport at 04:30 or 05:00 09:12:55 where are you going from SFO? 09:13:33 LGA via MDW 09:13:50 madbr, that's some pretty good music 09:13:57 thanks :3 09:15:17 -!- HackEgo has joined. 09:15:45 taneb : do you compose too? :3 09:15:52 Nah 09:15:55 I know some people in here do 09:16:01 I've got no musical talent 09:16:04 Not that I don't try 09:16:42 I sometimes music. 09:16:52 Not a lot. 09:17:24 I did enter Famicompo Mini vol.9 09:18:19 one time i went to the bucharest airport in the middle of the night and then slept on top of my bags until i could check in 09:18:22 I do write computer programs for dealing with music, such as VGMCK which is what I am working on now. 09:18:31 kmc: Is it permitted? 09:18:37 not sure 09:18:47 kmc: Evidently the universe permitted it to happen. 09:18:51 Er, s/kmc/zzo38/ 09:18:59 zzo38 : right... I think... gregg does music too right? 09:19:00 Well, yes, the laws of physics permit. 09:19:16 That is not quite how I meant 09:19:19 madbr: gregg? 09:19:24 gregor 09:19:32 Gregor? Yes, I think so. 09:20:00 I don't know if he has done it in Lilypond or whatever, I am not sure 09:20:19 does vgmck let you use samples for instruments 09:20:23 or is it just synthesis? 09:21:01 madbr: VGMCK lets you use the chips in the VGM format, so some chips let you use samples for instruments. Currently the only chip that does that that I have implemented in VGMCK is QSound, although there are others which I have just not implemented yet. 09:21:17 how many channels does qsound have again 09:21:21 Sixteen 09:21:43 you could probably do something close to the mp3 I linked to then 09:22:05 though it has a bit of reverb added on and it has more like 32 channels 09:23:34 OPL4 has both FM and samples, and it has more channels, so that can be used too. In addition, any chips can be combined other than SN76489 with T6W28. 09:23:37 goes up to 40 at times (counting "virtual channels") 09:24:05 yeah opl4 is cheating too :D 09:24:20 C# 4.0 has named parameters :) 09:24:25 In addition, most (but not all) chips can be doubled. 09:24:27 Although it still has ref arguments :/ 09:24:35 is the 4op mode supported on opl4? 09:24:43 Sgeo: What has it named them? 09:25:49 VGMCK does not currently support OPL4 at all, but I intend to support all the VGM chips, so when it does support OPL4, it will support 4-op mode too. 09:26:01 do you know any good tutorials for the so called lisp syntax assembly used in PARRY? 09:26:48 I know someone called Parry 09:27:11 madbr: Do you know the .VGM format? VGMCK compiles into VGM, so you will need a VGM player to play or convert it. 09:27:37 only ever used it for... genesis playback I think 09:27:55 since that's the platform that has games with interesting soundtracks anyways 09:28:04 that and snes but snes has spc 09:28:08 and nes has nsf 09:28:53 Well, VGM has a lot of chips (although it does omit some of the NSF chips, but they may be included in later versions): http://www.smspower.org/Music/VGMFileFormat 09:29:28 VGMCK currently supports the following chips: SN76489, T6W28, YM2413, YM2612, YM3812, NES APU, GameBoy, HuC6280, Pokey, QSound. 09:29:43 I am currently working on adding AY8910. 09:30:53 Here is a list of programs which can be used to create VGM: http://vgm.mdscene.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107 09:31:50 so it lets you write for strange mixes of weird chips 09:32:11 (As far as I can tell, DefleMask allows to use only one chip at a time (from the documentation on their webpage), and I don't think XPMCK allows using more than one chip at a time either but I am not sure.) 09:32:37 Aww, now I'm writing music 09:33:00 madbr: Yes; VGMCK is meant to eventually implement all the VGM and VGM does allow using various mixes of chips. 09:33:26 does it let you do stuff like vibratos or do you have to do those with macros like other mck things 09:33:57 madbr: You have to do those with macros, unless the chip supports hardware vibrato in which case you can use that. 09:34:44 oh hm 09:36:13 If you want a tracker format for VGM, DefleMask is probably best (not open source, but available for Windows/Mac OS X/Linux), although it is not as powerful as VGMCK, but depending on what you are doing it might work. If you prefer MIDI editors, you can use that too and convert, but those do even less. 09:37:41 * madbr looks up deflemask 09:37:47 looks strange 09:38:57 hopefully it's less broken than TFM music maker/tracker :D 09:39:26 -!- nooga has joined. 09:42:12 TFM music maker is broken? 09:42:16 yes 09:43:03 it does everything wrong 09:43:39 Well, now I know, so if anyone asks, I can tell them. 09:51:40 If one'd extend a PDA with registers 09:52:06 Is there an amount of registers < Infinity to make it tc 10:18:48 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:19:43 mroman_: you need an infinite amount of storage in the registers 10:19:53 although you can do that with a finite number of registers, if they're infinitely large registers 10:20:52 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 10:21:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:22:00 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:31:40 huh, Condorcet was a marquis 10:34:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:39:55 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:48:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:53:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:53:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 10:53:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:56:20 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:05:50 -!- banana_pee has changed nick to nick_exile. 11:06:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:14:07 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:16:51 Does lambdabot do rewrite rules? 11:20:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:21:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:24:50 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:27:16 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:40:46 -!- nooga has joined. 11:58:15 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 11:59:11 -!- carado has joined. 12:00:05 -!- nick_exile has quit (Quit: ragequit). 12:00:39 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 12:02:35 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:03:13 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 12:05:09 -!- sirdancealo3 has joined. 12:05:24 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:05:24 -!- sirdancealo3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:05:44 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 12:10:33 -!- nooodl has joined. 12:16:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:22:32 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 12:22:49 Does C even support const structs? 12:23:11 C89 that is. 12:24:51 const Foo bar = mkFoo(); is obviously not allowed. 12:25:55 Is {.x 12:26:02 C89? 12:27:53 .x ? as in, struct foo f = { .x = .., .y = .., }; ? 12:28:02 then no, that is C99 12:28:20 designated initializers 12:29:52 c00kiemon5ter: Yeah. 12:30:37 f = {1,2}; should be legale C89 though. 12:30:42 *legal 12:31:12 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:33:14 -!- carado_ has joined. 12:35:56 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:05:58 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 13:06:05 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:07:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:07:25 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 13:07:25 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:07:56 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:07:59 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:08:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:08:57 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 13:09:04 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:09:06 mroman_, you can't declare the value of y in C89 for union { int x; float y; } though in that manner, due to the lack of the dot-syntax 13:09:07 Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 13:09:14 @messages 13:09:15 oerjan said 14d 3h 46m 31s ago: also my PS3 controller on my desk random came to life and blinked the 4 LEDS a couple of times <-- probably just the google cloud trying to print 13:09:20 uh 13:09:24 I got that days ago already 13:09:29 why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? 13:09:34 Vorpal: My internet research tells me that I can use {foo,bar}; if used in the right order. 13:09:54 mroman_, for a struct, yes obviously 13:09:59 not for an union though 13:10:15 anyway, C89 is obsolete, C99 and C11 are the currently used ones pretty much 13:10:31 apart from MSVC there isn't much of importance that doesn't do C99 at least 13:11:40 C89 doesn't have function prototypes 13:11:41 what the 13:11:47 uh it does 13:11:51 K&R C does 13:12:05 mroman_, I suggest using a more reliable source than what you are currently using 13:12:14 Yeah. 13:12:23 The first time wikipedia is completely wrong. 13:12:46 there is your problem, using wikipedia as a source 13:13:24 Meh. It's gve or take. 13:13:29 *give 13:17:29 mroman_, are you trying to learn C? 13:18:46 No 13:18:49 I know C. 13:18:58 I just don't know which versions of C I know :) 13:19:00 ah 13:19:41 Which means that I know the C gcc compiles without any specific version options 13:19:54 I just don't know which features are available in what versions. 13:20:33 I always use -std=c99 -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L 13:20:48 should probably move to the next version of POSIX soon 13:20:54 after all it was released in 2008 13:22:43 but for my compiler I decided to target C89 13:23:12 you are writing a C compiler? 13:23:13 ouch 13:23:48 C89 is great, it has no features and everything is broken 13:24:21 Vorpal: No 13:24:29 oh? 13:24:37 I meant I compile my language to C89. 13:24:40 olsner, that is like all versions of C, more or less 13:25:20 C99 is pretty sane, I think 13:25:27 C11 support is not far I assumed. 13:25:43 and some microsoft products apparentely don't even support C99 fully compliant. 13:26:14 iirc, microsoft explicitly unsupports all of c99 13:26:20 so I figured C89'd be best so people can use any c89 compliant compiler for the backend 13:26:48 (except if c99 accidentally standardized some microsoft extensions, I guess) 13:26:50 C99 is pretty sane, I think <-- really? Files but no directories? No threads? gets still around? 13:27:02 I haven't really looked at C11 though 13:28:24 I count threading and i/o as mostly outside the language (but threading less so, since the behavior of variables with threads is sort of important) 13:40:56 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:43:56 olsner, hm 13:44:20 does anything support C11 yet? 13:45:19 wait wtf 13:45:29 since when was tom hanks directing an american gods tv series 13:45:46 never, apparently, since he's producing it 13:48:31 mroman_, C11 is at least partially supported (according to wikipedia.....): GCC starting with version 4.6,[5] Clang starting with version 3.1,[6] and IBM XL C starting with version 12.1[7] support some features from C11. 13:52:15 -!- Frooxius has joined. 13:54:45 -!- aloril has joined. 13:57:04 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 13:59:20 -!- dessos has joined. 13:59:25 -!- epicmonkey_ has joined. 13:59:25 -!- dessos_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:01:27 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (*.net *.split). 14:01:27 -!- epicmonkey has quit (*.net *.split). 14:01:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 14:01:27 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split). 14:11:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:12:08 The vocab list that OCR publishes for A-level latin is inconsistent 14:12:32 Unless there's a big difference between "verb semi-dep" and "verb semi-dep." 14:12:50 And "verb 2 semi-dep" and "verb 2 semidep" 14:13:28 Sure there is. 14:13:39 semi-dep means it's half dep, semi-dep. means it's half deponent. 14:16:00 -!- mekeor has joined. 14:17:31 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:23:12 The function `") {"' is applied to three arguments, 14:23:14 o_O 14:28:28 "Demonstrating music tech is difficult, because it seems to be impossible to listen to demos without making aesthetic judgements. The below is not meant to be good music, but if you find yourself enjoying any of it, please think sad thoughts. If you find yourself reacting badly to the broken rhythms, try humming a favourite tune over the top." 14:38:51 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 14:45:27 -!- Sanky has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:46:21 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:47:30 -!- Sanky has joined. 14:50:30 can ghci tell me which pattern does not exist? 14:55:10 nvm. found the bug. 14:55:23 -Wall 14:56:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:05:14 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:09:03 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:09:36 -!- wareya has joined. 15:12:04 http://codepad.org/Gy729Qol 15:12:07 ^- well.. 15:12:19 The "bootstrap" compiler works :) 15:47:16 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 15:47:21 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 15:47:21 -!- quintopia has joined. 15:48:31 hi 15:53:44 somehow github only show the first 54 lines o_O 15:54:48 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 15:58:13 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 16:09:37 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 16:09:56 > lines "foo\r\n" 16:09:58 ["foo\r"] 16:10:04 That sucks. 16:10:11 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:16:42 Because most people who use Haskell do so on Linux 16:16:49 um... 16:17:01 for a start spj uses windows 16:17:13 for a second i'm pretty sure haskell does the C normalisation thing whereby you get "\n" on any platform, though don't quote me on that 16:17:19 Is spj most people? 16:17:24 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:17:25 Yes 16:25:01 -!- Bike has joined. 16:28:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:28:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 16:28:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:30:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:34:18 I use windows. 16:35:51 Get Linux 16:36:01 I mean, I'm sorry to hear that 16:36:19 -!- epicmonkey_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:36:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 16:37:07 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:37:07 os/2 is the future 16:37:07 Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 16:37:11 whoa 16:37:48 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 16:38:04 -!- Frooxius has joined. 17:06:44 \o/ 17:07:00 I can compile a hello world program. Not much. It's something :) 17:10:51 What language what system? 17:11:46 http://codepad.org/tmyU8LMO 17:12:46 I don't recognize that language 17:12:56 You can't. 17:13:05 It didn't exist two months ago :) 17:14:13 I'm creating a non-esoteric programming language for a change. 17:14:40 (which I compile to C) 17:16:44 https://raw.github.com/FMNSSun/mopl/master/mopl/hw.c <- that's the output file 17:18:13 ({{ ... }} is inline C) 17:20:21 It's very simple actually. 17:20:32 Just some hacked together ~200 lines of Haskellcode 17:20:49 ok.maybe 400 lines. 17:24:15 well 17:24:24 the ultimate goal is to write a mopl compiler in mopl 17:37:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:37:17 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 17:44:05 -!- daniela has joined. 17:56:05 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:03:19 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:03:20 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit). 18:03:40 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:57:48 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host). 18:57:48 -!- tswett has joined. 19:07:59 maybe Haskell should have a library like Python's ctypes 19:08:59 dynamically loaded, dynamically typed FFI bindings 19:13:16 How does that work? Loading a .so or .dll file? 19:13:54 yes 19:14:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:15:06 How would dynamically typed FFI bindings work though? 19:16:16 ctypes.CDLL('libc.so.6').printf("Hello, world!\n") 19:16:23 that's how it works in Python 19:16:58 well with the standard Haskell FFI, there's no check that the type you declared for a C function matches the type it was compiled with 19:17:05 so we just move the not checking to runtime instead of compile time :) 19:17:07 O, OK, I suppose in a programming language such as Python (or other dynamically typed programming languages, such as JavaScript) would make sense like that. 19:17:42 loadLibrary :: String -> IO Lib; invoke :: Lib -> String -> [CArgument] -> CResult 19:17:47 What I would like to have is dynamically loaded Haskell programs using a type such as: Typeable x => FilePath -> IO x 19:18:04 'plugins' is supposed to do that 19:18:07 kmc: Yes I suppose that could be the way. 19:18:19 or hint or mueval or all these others that i can't keep track fo 19:18:41 kmc: you could do an awful pritnf-style hack for nice syntax 19:18:44 i think CArgument and CResult are sort of dual there 19:18:54 however I don't see how this is really better than the existing FFI 19:18:59 after all you can already import dlopen/dlsym and it works fine afaik 19:19:08 I think something like that is done for objective-c bidnings 19:19:21 CArgument is just a sum of all the C types, but CResult is a thing which, you tell it what type the result should be and it converts 19:19:33 With my idea basically the .so or .dll contains a Haskell value of type x, so it could be a record type, or it could be a IO action in which case you will want to join the result if you want to execute it right away. 19:19:44 i find ctypes to be slightly more convenient than Haskell's FFI and i'm trying to figure out why 19:20:17 it's probably not a big difference though 19:20:49 well I think it is convenient in Python because C APIs are close to what you'd actually use day-to-day in Python :p 19:20:59 (this is basically a complaint about python) 19:21:03 heh 19:21:11 kmc: While the loadLibrary and invoke could possibly do it, it seems like example you gave is things that would work better in other programming languages such as Python, Perl, JavaScript, and so on. 19:21:33 hm my mersenne twister in Python is only 4 times slower than the reference implementation 19:22:36 elliott: i think it's just that you're probably doing some type-munging around the C call anyway, so doing that *and* declaring the type in a 'foreign import' declaration seems like boilerplate 19:22:53 right 19:23:04 you could do some typeclass hackery like I said. it'd be slow runtime though :( 19:23:05 At least I think in JavaScript you could have it work with the same code as the example with Python, even. 19:23:09 yeah 19:23:10 have you used hsc2hs/c2hs 19:23:13 you might find those more convenient 19:23:17 yeah i used hsc2hs 19:23:18 it's all right 19:23:25 hdis86 uses it 19:23:28 c2hs is more elaborate fwiw 19:23:32 yeah 19:23:36 i read ezyang's blog posts about it 19:23:55 i wrote that library on fung wah bus 19:24:54 -!- daniela has left. 19:25:27 kmc: Now write it in befunge 19:31:18 mersenne twister? 19:33:15 mersenne twister shaped like a twister 19:34:00 rhymes that blister like mersenne twister 19:39:41 -!- mekeor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:42:04 Preach it, sister 19:49:01 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:12:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:14:03 theory: it is substantially easier for something to be awesome if it has no purpose other than awesomeness 20:14:09 ais523: I would imagine the opposite. 20:14:23 i submit this is one of those Great Truths 20:14:46 the former or the latter? 20:14:57 The two lines as a whole, of course 20:15:00 ...i see you don't know what a Great Truth is. 20:15:10 I clearly do not! 20:15:15 Please explain 20:15:25 it's a truth such that its opposite is also a Great Truth 20:16:01 i see oerjan is a dialetheist 20:16:26 ah Niels Bohr was the origin of that 20:16:35 * oerjan tried Piet Hein first 20:16:48 (also a dane with a penchant for great truths) 20:18:15 hm i don't trust that quote site to have the correct wording... 20:18:30 * oerjan tries wikiquote instead 20:18:35 oerjan: Your definition of "Great Truth" sounds like a recursive definition without an edge condition 20:19:04 "Two sorts of truth: profound truths 
recognized by the fact that the opposite is also a profound truth,
 in contrast to trivialities where opposites are obviously absurd." 20:19:09 it's an old quote 20:19:30 a nice one 20:19:42 (that's the wikiquote version which actually is cited) 20:20:53 Yes I have seen that before 20:21:00 so do we also have an actual list of Great Truth? 20:21:05 *Truths 20:21:16 i'm not sure you're quite on the wavelength of the idea here 20:22:03 AnotherTest: i guess you need to take the corecursive interpretation (i.e. maximal possible set) in that case. 20:22:15 since the minimal one, by what you say, would be empty. 20:23:36 Oh, like, the universal set? 20:23:38 If any Great Truth are logical then you need to use different kinds of logic. 20:23:46 youo're not supposed to have a list, it's just supposed to be an insult, what the hell 20:23:55 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:24:31 zzo38: p <=> not p is definitely not true indeed 20:24:34 -!- nooodl has joined. 20:25:17 can unknown be equivalent to not unknown even? 20:25:28 (ternary logic then) 20:25:56 i thought ¬u = u was a given of that logic 20:26:35 AnotherTest: no, not the universal set, it doesn't not include falsities or their opposite 20:26:40 oops 20:26:42 *-not 20:27:03 (maybe that was still correct on account on being a great truth) 20:29:12 i think to understand great truths, you first have to understand that logic has its limitations. 20:29:37 and not just to understand that they exist, but to understand a particular one. 20:29:59 also how can i say that when i still haven't thought of an example. 20:30:00 At least I know that logic has limitations. 20:30:16 Isn't it like a great truth that great truths are /really/ great truths? 20:30:30 But there is different kind of logic, in order to make some things that works in some cases. 20:30:42 maybe zen koans 20:30:45 hande hoch! 20:31:07 but since niels bohr was involved, probably also something quantum 20:31:08 But a kind of logic can be mathematically logical even if it doesn't apply to actual situations normally. 20:31:15 nooga: wie so? 20:31:34 oerjan: Yes, perhaps Zen koans would be called great truth by such definition, possibly. 20:31:43 oerjan: you just need to use a paraconsistent logic 20:32:07 what is the truth value of cutting off your disciple's arm 20:32:36 oerjan: Quantun? I guess so, although it still isn't applicable to measured (collapsed) states, I suppose, even though it is in general, possibly? 20:32:39 das ist ein internationale skandal! 20:32:46 Bike: Forty-two! 20:32:53 humorous 20:32:54 But only if you don't do it. 20:33:19 Bike: Mu. see: [Parachattavadhari 451, page 701] 20:33:52 Is that gobbledygook that's supposed to look like Sanskrit? 20:34:25 wtf i keep being logged out of wikipedia 20:34:26 I do know one word in Sanskrit, at least. 20:34:37 maybe this is related to that oots issue 20:34:55 Does the cookie expire? 20:35:32 i have ticked the usual "remember for 180 days" mark 20:36:04 Did you try editing the cookie? I have found that for some webpages it won't work properly unless the cookie is edited. 20:36:05 Bike: MAYBE 20:36:17 Do you even know how to write Sanskrit? 20:36:24 no. 20:37:15 i just have some vague idea about the phonology and maybe a handful of words. 20:37:27 Wouldn't Zen be in Japanese or Chinese anyway 20:37:32 ok maybe not _that_ vague 20:37:53 "Ayanamsha" is Sanskrit words for amount of precession of equinoxes. 20:37:54 Bike: japanese, i think the chinese is slightly different 20:38:21 zzo38: didn't you mention that before, or was that another astronomy word 20:38:26 like, gateless gate is in chinese isn't it 20:38:40 oerjan: I don't know. Probably I did. 20:38:46 There's one of them in Hexham 20:38:54 A gateless gate 20:38:58 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:39:03 But I don't know if any astronomers use such words unless they are Sanskrit or astrologers. 20:39:17 (or both) 20:39:39 How would an astronomer be Sanskrit? 20:40:29 I don't know; I am not Sanskrit. 20:40:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:40:37 the subjects weren't different back then 20:40:42 I mean, it's not an ethnicity 20:41:11 Bike: O, OK, then. 20:41:26 I mean, if they speak/write Sanskrit then they might use such words. 20:41:52 That would be like doing astronomy in latin. (Which sounds amusing) 20:41:55 ok at least closing and reopening the browser didn't lose the login. maybe it was connected to how my hibernation image was broken... 20:42:21 or that it's somehow kept different for http and https 20:42:48 Latin is the language of Vatican. 20:42:58 THERE IS NO POPE OMG 20:43:02 WTFBBQ 20:43:12 There is still Vatican, even if there is currently no pope. 20:43:20 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:43:24 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:46:17 so why did vatican delete all benedict's tweets 20:46:36 papal fallibility 20:47:04 but they're archived!! 20:47:53 archivandi in gloria aeternis 20:48:03 Maybe it is because it was the Vatican's account and not the pope's own account? 20:48:11 Is that why? 20:48:33 imagining the pope having a personal twitter account now 20:48:42 for all his non-catholic church related doings(???) 20:49:05 read 'church related dongs' 20:49:30 ratzinger's zingers, an account devoted entirely to cheesy insults 20:49:49 Even if he has a Twitter account which does have stuff about the Catholic Church, then, if it is his own account then they should not delete it. If it is belonging to the Vatican, then they have the right to delete it. Isn't it? 20:49:55 kmc: insert predictable joke re: catholic church 20:51:07 joke manipulator arm now online. please clear a 500m standard safety area around joke insertion slot. commencing insertion... 20:51:54 It is probably farther away than that from my computer. 20:52:09 you're probably going to get a concussion then 20:54:31 Well, I don't know where it even is (or even whether or not you made such a thing), so it won't help anyways. 20:55:21 tell that to your concussion 20:57:12 -!- Zerker has joined. 20:57:33 Does any Famicom emulator be able to read the host system's battery function to set the FDS battery low bits? 21:00:33 i should have followed up with "i guess that's more a tumblr thing" 21:00:44 but i was already in the shower by the time I thought of this witty remark :/ 21:02:50 `addquote kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences 21:03:00 978) kmc: ok i gotta admit i fully support the use of ultrafilters in social sciences 21:03:15 -!- nooga has joined. 21:05:02 wait where does the remark go in context 21:06:07 evolveing a program to to give me the nth digit of the thule-morse sequence when given the binary representation of n is very hard if I only allow it to use nand gates 21:06:09 for all his non-catholic church related doings(???) <-- uh, what does that consist of? 21:06:14 Vorpal: (???) 21:06:22 elliott, ah, of course 21:07:17 elliott, but more seriously is he known for having some side interests at all? 21:07:29 Maybe, uh, catching butterflies or something+ 21:07:33 s/+/?/ 21:07:39 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:07:51 surely he must, as a person, have some hobbies 21:09:27 i don't think you quite understand how churches work 21:10:10 elliott, that is probably true 21:13:08 * oerjan swats Taneb for converting `? ais523 from utf-8 to latin-1 21:13:25 `? ais523 21:13:26 Agent "I" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 21:13:33 * + -----### 21:14:00 What would Chaotic Evil ais523 look like? 21:14:19 kind of person who knocks over unattended cups i'd wager 21:15:18 hm my browser's autocomplete database has reset too 21:15:49 `url 21:15:51 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 21:16:50 `run echo "Agent \"Iä\" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good." > wisdom/ais523 21:17:00 No output. 21:18:01 * oerjan swats Taneb for converting `? ais523 from utf-8 to latin-1 <-- why would he do such a crime 21:18:30 Vorpal: presumably by cutting and pasting in his irc client with a bad charset setting 21:18:36 ah 21:18:48 what a heinous crime indeed 21:19:00 `? ais523 21:19:02 Agent "Iä" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 21:19:44 surely he must, as a person, have some hobbies <-- istr he plays the piano? 21:20:32 oerjan, Ah 21:20:42 could microblog on twitter about the piano 21:20:59 What would Chaotic Evil ais523 look like? <-- he would actually _succeed_ in retroactively unevolving avian body covering, although at terrible cost. 21:21:39 why specifically on the 3rd of March? 21:21:49 hasn't ais been basically lawful good forever 21:22:05 23:29:10 hmm… today seems to be the ais523 "have I mentioned I'm lawful good yet" day 21:22:08 23:29:17 3 march, I must remember that 21:22:26 Taneb _may_ have slightly misinterpreted. 21:22:53 ah 21:23:03 How would ais523 react if stuck in a Lawful Evil area? 21:23:09 oerjan, yeah I remember we established his alignment long ago 21:23:11 Where Lawful contradicts Good 21:23:37 Sgeo, he would obviously not be ais any longer 21:23:41 he sputters out and then starts shouting about diathelism 21:25:50 http://chaospet.com/2007/11/29/62-dialetheism/ 21:26:05 yes i can't spell WHAT OF IT 21:26:20 imo i'm a dialatheist 21:26:26 I believe god exists AND doesn't exist 21:26:30 Bike, didn't even notice 21:26:51 that comic is pretty sophistic but what else is new 21:27:03 Although.... I guess that's why Google only turned up the comic 21:27:12 Weird though, since the comic spelled it correctly 21:27:17 i think graham priest is the usual go-to guy 21:27:27 he's the high priest of dialatheism 21:27:28 No it didn't 21:27:49 http://chaospet.com/2009/06/15/128-more-dialetheism/ (the link I originally saw) contains BIke's misspelling 21:27:50 "In addition to his work in philosophy and logic, Priest practices Karate-do. He is 3rd Dan, International Karate-do Shobukai; 4th Dan, Shi’to Ryu, and an Australian National Kumite Referee and Kata Judge." 21:28:25 I seriously thought that the whole diathelism thing was a reference to that comic. 21:28:37 i've never seen that comic before and it looks bad 21:28:56 Blame Google. 21:29:02 f u google 21:29:02 And yourself for misspelling. 21:29:07 f u bike 21:29:12 fugle 21:32:15 Bluh. What's that really famous song, I think it's a Kraftwerk song, that's ohwoahohwoahoh 21:32:28 um 21:32:40 oh yeah, and it goes like, doooOOOooooOOOOOoo? 21:32:57 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101093149AAhTBGF 21:32:59 duh, duh duh duh duh, duh duh, duh duh duh duh duh duh DUH, duh DUH 21:33:05 i googled: oh woah kraftwerk 21:33:27 elliott: i refuse to believe that works 21:33:33 sgeo listen to that song so you can say it's not it 21:33:40 it links to several tracks in fact 21:33:43 one of them is even by kraftwerk 21:34:31 The beginning is unfamiliar, but I think it's the song 21:34:38 Where TF did I get "kraftwerk" from? 21:34:38 Fuck. 21:34:41 `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'tr A-Z U | tr a-z u') > bin/uuu; chmod a+x bin/uuu 21:34:46 No output. 21:34:51 `run welcome | uuu 21:34:53 Uuuuuuu uu uuu uuuuuuuuuuuuu uuu uuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuu uuu uuuuuuuuuu! Uuu uuuu uuuuuuuuuuu, uuuuu uuu uuu uuuu: uuuu://uuuuuuuu.uuu/uuuu/Uuuu_Uuuu. (Uuu uuu uuuuu uuuu uu uuuuuuuuu, uuu #uuuuuuuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.) 21:34:58 didnt you know every piece of electronic music is by kraftwerk 21:35:03 that's a science fact™ 21:35:10 also they invented robots 21:35:30 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:35:37 Trivia: there are actually robots in the Illiad 21:35:45 I think I only thought I knew Kraftwerk in relation to that song, which isn't actually a Kraftwerk song 21:35:51 The ones on the island with the labyrinth? 21:35:55 Except, hmm 21:36:05 I don't actually hear the vocals in this version 21:36:08 wir fahren fahren fahren auf der autobahn 21:36:12 did i spell that right 21:36:21 faßren 21:36:24 fuck you 21:36:25 hth 21:36:31 :( 21:36:48 Bike, if it helps, this might be the wrong version of the basic concept of the song 21:36:57 the wrong version of the basic concept of the song... 21:36:59 no, it's too late 21:37:17 anyway if it is "Kernkraft 400" i have a guess why you related it to kraftwerk 21:37:18 the guess is "kraft" 21:37:29 Ohohohoh ohoh.song 21:37:29 that is what is is called on limewire 21:37:29 Source(s): 21:37:29 Hockey songs --- limewire 21:37:50 why don't you listen to some REAL german electronica http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6zb8YpL5-w 21:38:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsorGbKwNlA#t=22s 21:38:34 I don't hear any actual oh woah ing in here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSJQLCImV18 21:38:54 Electronic sounds are doing the same melody that oh'ing should be 21:39:04 maybe you listened to a choir singing it 21:39:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=?v=XPoiPZYbtnA#t=75s Sgeo 21:39:48 elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fwjZFLmrpE i have no idea why it's real but it is 21:39:53 bjornsuper 6 dagen geleden 21:39:53 0 to 1.15 complet shit rest of the song annihilates 21:40:01 thanks for the review, bjornsuper 21:40:22 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:40:28 nooodl, yes 21:40:53 oops i messed up that link 21:40:56 did you find it anyway 21:40:58 Bike: is this from that album 21:41:01 ohhh 21:41:02 it's that thing 21:41:05 yes, I deleted feature=? 21:41:06 heheh 21:41:11 yeah it's from that one album of that one thing you got it 21:41:19 i think that is actually from an ep actually 21:41:29 but what i meant was uh 21:41:42 god dammit go faster browser 21:41:48 im going to die 21:42:45 also good: vocal guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Asi870JpI 21:42:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustica:_Alarm_Will_Sound_Performs_Aphex_Twin 21:43:13 always laughing and laughing loud 21:43:18 except i think i also meant something else 21:43:35 whatever fuck this i'm going away for quarter of an hour, back when i don't hate everybody 21:43:38 this sounds complicated elliott 21:43:57 http://miburl.com/3tYFIf darn.. i need a premium account at all costs 21:44:10 fuck you <-- Bike was lying hth 21:45:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:46:38 so h 21:52:47 (I thought it needed more emphasis.) <-- O KAY 21:55:12 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:57:31 > let stupid = 3 {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid 21:57:32 Terminated 21:57:35 > let stupid = 3 {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid 21:57:37 :1:16: parse error on input `{-# RULES' 21:57:55 FreeFull: NOPE 21:59:06 Bike: what sounds complicated. 21:59:26 that one album of that one thing 22:00:00 hm 22:00:05 > let stupid = 3; {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} in stupid 22:00:07 :1:17: parse error on input `{-# RULES' 22:00:21 > let stupid = 3 in {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} stupid 22:00:22 :1:19: parse error on input `{-# RULES' 22:00:37 stupid 22:01:22 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds). 22:01:30 oerjan: Oh well 22:02:32 FreeFull: although i don't know if RULES work outside top level anywhere 22:02:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:02:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 22:02:53 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:02:58 Bike: some of their stuff is pretty impressive 22:03:16 whose stuff 22:03:24 @let stupid = 3; {-# RULES "stupid" stupid = 2 #-} 22:03:24 Invalid declaration 22:03:32 STUPID 22:03:53 I've heard of a song called "Guile's theme", but why does a dialect of Scheme have a theme? 22:04:07 bad joke, retire it 22:04:12 was that meant to be a joke.. 22:04:36 I did gather that there's a game or something called Guile, but I can't help but think of the Scheme dialect 22:04:48 it's a character in a video game 22:05:02 also it's a word? you know, "guile", like ability to trick people 22:05:30 why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? <-- i think this may be "things reset for no sensible reason day". as well as ais523 lawful good day, of course. 22:05:34 Yes, but words don't typically get theme songs either 22:06:02 but sometimes... sometimes, more than one thing may be named after... /the same word/ 22:06:19 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 22:07:16 Did I say anything along the lines of "The character must be named after the Scheme dialect!" or "The Scheme dialect must be named after the character!"/ 22:07:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:07:37 definitely 22:07:43 you know generally you don't have to have an argument for your joke to work :P 22:08:09 in fact it doesn't help. 22:08:17 at all. 22:08:21 hth. 22:08:50 oerjan: in fact it didn't help. 22:08:52 at all. 22:08:54 hth. 22:09:01 thx. 22:09:01 recursion 22:09:34 we've obtained rapid fire device 22:09:42 hth, thx, hth. 22:10:06 -!- nooga has joined. 22:10:40 How efficient would be a Verilog implementation of the INTERCAL select ~ operator and its (almost) inverse (setting the unused bits to zero)? 22:11:11 zzo38: you could do it in one cycle, I don't know what the maximum clock speed would be 22:11:30 probably you could get a very high clock speed if it was completely forwarded, but that might use a prohibitive amount of silicon 22:11:48 (forwarding is sort-of the hardware equivalent of unrolling) 22:11:56 OK 22:12:11 I think you could probably do it in four to six stages and still fit into one clock cycle 22:14:57 (If you use both operations together, it acts like a bitwise AND; you can also do various other things with these operations together in different ways.) 22:16:51 You could also use them to encode and decode Morton numbers if you put -2/3 and -1/3 on the right operand. 22:20:55 I really think they would be useful for various things. How would it affect existing processor cores if such an instruction was added in the Verilog code? 22:21:35 zzo38: the major change would be in the decoding logic, I think 22:21:46 it's not significantly slower, or different, to an addition, from the point of view of implementation 22:22:29 hmmmmmmmmmm 22:22:39 * ais523 wonders if modern processors use single-cycle multipliers 22:22:57 they exist but are really expensive in silicon 22:23:16 however, I don't think the silicon use would be significant compared to, say, the L1 cache 22:24:20 Due to features like these, as well as other features such as BCD arithmetic, I would want a !asm metadata in LLVM which tells it that the result can be calculated using the specified assembly language instructions, even though there is a code or function or something calculating the same thing in the circumstances; this can be used for optimization. 22:27:44 ais523: I don't know if x86 does, but Amber uses Booth's multiplication and I don't know how many cycles it requires. 22:27:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:27:45 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)). 22:29:05 O, I found it; it is 34 clock cycles to multiply. 22:29:06 isn't the number of cycles for a multiplier dependent on the depth of the circuit (versus, like, the transistor depth for a cycle?) 22:29:11 34? o_O 22:29:28 Fiora: it depends on the number of registered stages in the circuit 22:29:28 better recode that shit as shiftadds 22:29:48 but that has a pretty strong correlation to the depth, because if your depth is too large compared to the number of stages, you have to slow down your clock speed to compensate 22:29:50 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 22:29:55 ais523: yeah, that's what I meant, sorry 22:30:00 he's going to keep that for a while isn't he 22:30:00 and modern processors try to run at the highest clock speed they physically can 22:30:14 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 22:30:15 just like, I figure a 64x64->128 1-cycle multiplier is probably not possible with the cycle depth required by like, an ivy bridge? 22:31:10 Fiora: it is, there's a famous construction that shows that you can do any combinatorial circuit in one stage with just two levels of nand gates 22:31:39 but you get a combinatorial explosion so it's not a useful one in practice, unless you can really spare the silicon and really need speed 22:31:52 it's done for additions sometimes 22:32:33 at which point does the size of the silicon start to limit what you can do? e.g. because of the speed of light being too low 22:32:49 that seems impossible...? like. two levels of nand gates means at most 4 bits of input 22:32:51 olsner: we've hit that point already 22:33:00 and you can't figure out one bit of output in a 128-bit multiply from just 4 bits of input 22:33:04 Fiora: very wide nand gates 22:33:07 oh. 22:33:16 what about actual 2-input gates <.< 22:33:25 hmm 22:33:28 I don't know offhand 22:33:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:33:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 22:33:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:33:49 but 3-input nand gates aren't particularly harder to build than 2-input nand gates, apart from having to try to connect three inputs to them 22:33:57 routing overhead is one of the major problems with modern hardware design 22:33:58 that seems like the thing that actually matters? since like, more and more inputs means more delay doesn't it? 22:34:14 a 128-input nand gate seems pretty crazy XD 22:34:16 not noticeably, apart from the routing problem 22:34:27 fwiw, six inputs seems to be the current standard in FPGAs 22:34:40 it used to be four at one point, and manufacturers are probably moving to higher numbers at the moment 22:35:51 The fastest multiplier I know is I think the ivy bridge multiplier 22:36:01 In order to save energy and to be compatible with programs requiring slower clock speeds, there could be I/O ports to adjust the clock speed to slow it down if it is wanted; does this work? 22:36:03 at least, like, in an actual hcip 22:36:06 *chip 22:36:15 Fiora: what I know is that if I accidentally ask for a single-cycle 32-bit multiply when writing a Verilog or VHDL program, the synthesizer knows how to handle it 22:36:27 -!- Zerker has joined. 22:36:31 though I still kinda wonder why they chose to allocate their gates like that but others didn't 22:36:43 How does the floating point coprocessors work in ARM? 22:37:53 ais523: does the synthesizer have, like, options that let you pick the sort of multiplier you want? 22:38:00 I guess in theory you could write your own... 22:38:07 Fiora: the synthesizer implements what you write 22:38:15 I meant for like, how it implements a "*" 22:38:29 yeah, * is single cycle, it has to be because there's no delay around it or the like 22:38:39 for longer multiplies, you instantiate modules from elsewhere 22:38:56 Does Verilog even allow * in compiled codes? 22:39:01 like, you get a 32-cycle multiply from your standard library 22:39:04 zzo38: yes, but it doesn't allow / 22:39:12 I think so... we used * and stuff in our MIPS chip in class... 22:39:29 if you want division, you need to get it from a library or implement it yourself 22:39:45 why are you reminding me of this lambdabot? <-- i think this may be "things reset for no sensible reason day". as well as ais523 lawful good day, of course. <-- it reset for no sensible reason? 22:39:49 sounds buggy 22:39:50 Does it allow / in stuff other than compiled codes though? (such as in macros and constant expressions) 22:40:12 zzo38: I don't know, I've never tried 22:40:19 I think it allows exponentiation in macros and constant expressions 22:40:29 and division is rather easier than exponentiation, so probably 22:41:31 `? ais523 22:41:33 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 22:41:36 ais523, I like that one ^ 22:42:22 If it was up to me, no arithmetic operations would be allowed in compiled codes; they would be allowed only in constant expressions, macros, selectors, and ROM data; and otherwise you have to specify your own algorithms in terms of bitwise. 22:45:05 I also would think their ought to be commands which means, that it would optionally use precompiled block in place of the specified block, which can be automatically selected based on the optimization and conditional compiler options, to ensure vendor-independent codes and still allow vendor-specific optimizations. 22:46:01 Does it have that? 22:46:02 night → 22:46:30 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)). 22:48:40 elliott, where's your link about files? 22:48:50 um 22:48:51 which one 22:48:55 which thing..... which link 22:49:04 which files 22:49:05 I think the one that's anti-file 22:50:34 If the coprocessors are omitted from Amber core, instead making the cache and privilege areas to be hard-coded, will it make the clock speed faster? 22:50:45 [...] with just two levels of nand gates <-- that's just disjunctive normal form, i think. (unless i got confused and it's conjunctive instead.) 22:51:01 oerjan: yes, pretty much that 22:51:12 right down to the not being able to remember which is which 22:55:26 sounds buggy <-- it's happened before that lambdabot messages get reset like that. but even worse, i hear they recently got their entire quote database reset several years back. 22:55:37 (that wasn't today though.) 22:55:44 `quote 22:55:46 252) elliott: there go my minutes of research!! 22:55:51 wait wrong one 22:55:52 @quote 22:55:53 hgolden says: pioneers are the ones with arrows in their backs. at least ours will be categorical arrows. 22:55:54 Sgeo: perhaps http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html, which I should maybe get cpressey to edit with a note that I wrote it because I was annoyed at Unix and hence it's a lot more whiny than it needs to be, and doesn't fully reflect my current views 22:57:03 files suck? lol 22:57:34 at least that's pretty straight 22:57:37 tag systems fo lyfe 22:57:44 also my historical account of them is a bit wrong -- e.g. I was unaware of how Multics did things at the time I wrote it 22:57:55 but I still dislike filesystems 22:58:23 filesystems? more like thebestsystems 22:58:37 wow I was annoying in 2010 22:58:47 shachaf: more like vilesystems!!! 22:59:08 more like badstupids 22:59:17 im bested 22:59:53 θs? more like badstupids 23:00:12 (THE JOKE IS GHC CODE IS FULL OF bad_stupid_theta) 23:00:49 what the hell is theta 23:00:59 greek letter 23:01:10 thx 23:01:13 Bike: bad & stupid 23:02:05 Bike: It's a class context, I think. 23:02:11 Or maybe just a context in general? 23:02:15 As in the thing to the left of => 23:02:54 btw, I had a really good esolang idea last sleep period 23:02:59 but haven't worked out the details 23:03:05 the basic idea is, the esolang is defined by an interpreter 23:03:14 whenever you run the interpreter, it mutates the language it interprets slightly 23:03:32 and always in such a way that every program you had ever successfully run through it would fail 23:03:44 you have to try to infer what the current state of the language is from the error messages 23:05:12 true masochists leave out the error messages 23:08:39 how would be the mutation realized? kind of randomly? 23:08:54 +be 23:09:05 no there was a be 23:10:15 hagb4rd: What do you get out of being in this channel? 23:11:44 sometimes someone says something interesting. or funny. or inspiring. but yea good question 23:13:52 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:16:45 but it's sad i can't remember how it's been since it was you who make me laugh 23:16:47 a pity 23:18:31 again, i have to ask 23:18:43 do you actually think you're saying something clever here 23:19:31 because you radiate this kind of cargo cult profundity 23:20:13 i don't understand what you're saying 23:20:56 "cargo cult profundity" probably is supposed to denote that you parrot profound things in a disjointed fashion divorced of their meaning 23:20:59 you sort of know the words and general comportment of someone saying insightful things about the world around them 23:21:17 you just don't actually have any actual insightful things to say about the world around you 23:21:28 aber sich ständig profilieren zu wollen, auch wenn man über leichen geht wäre nicht mein ding 23:21:53 I am here because I love fungot 23:21:53 c00kiemon5ter: this rampart, shaped like a hen's egg, yet containing enough power to keep people away from those wild, haunted hills behind hoary and fnord arkham that all his forebears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of the action of water through more than seventeen years ago, when mans 23:21:56 insofern ist es mir nicht so wichtig dass ich hier clever scheine 23:21:58 fungot, do you love me ? 23:21:58 c00kiemon5ter: this sound, as complex and unplaceable as any of the fnord poor harley warren once had. it came from india while carter and i were not connected, wherefore our first knowledge of extraordinary conditions came from others. the farther he went, and when he resumed his voice was fnord music of deep viols and of crystalline spheres. we talked often in the night as he stood on that high marble terrace with the curious 23:22:12 seguing into german for no good reason is not really proving otherwise, hagb4rd 23:22:19 aber vielleicht kann ich auch etwas lernen 23:22:28 *segueing, apparently 23:22:38 that word was much cooler back when i only vaguely knew about it 23:23:39 are segways still cool though 23:23:51 inasmuch as they ever were 23:23:56 shachaf: i hear their coolness rolled off a cliff 23:24:12 hello oerjan 23:24:16 `welcome oerjan 23:24:18 oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 23:25:29 hagb4rd: you certainly don't have to be profound to be here. but i think what they're complaining about is that you make a lot of barely-in-context sentences that sound like you are _trying_ to be profound. 23:25:59 and failing. 23:26:13 I never got any "trying to be profound" sense. 23:26:24 well.. i hope that's not my entire motivation 23:26:25 It's just that I see a lot of words with no point to them. 23:26:34 Then I look to the left and it says . 23:27:57 ok then mainly it's that barely-in-context part. 23:28:53 also i'm sure he's not the only one to go through a period of making such comments. 23:29:08 Ich sind klugbar 23:29:14 sorry. sometimes my brain makes weird associations. and i wonder about it myself 23:29:30 i'll try to compense 23:31:10 Jafet: Du machst Deutsch gutes, ja? 23:32:39 am bestenlich 23:33:41 you're both dutch? 23:33:47 you should talk to taneb 23:34:08 I thought taneb was Hexhamish. 23:35:20 Hexham am Main 23:35:27 and to answer Phantom_Hoovers question. no! i don't think i'm THAT clever. unfortunatly i'm not a good mathematician and not the best programmer. yes, i like philosphy and i like to wonder. also you guys impressed me very much, and that's mostly the reason i came here and ..am still here 23:36:15 no not impressed me 23:36:41 impressed is correct :) 23:37:32 had to check this in my dictionary 23:38:09 impressario 23:38:13 si 23:38:16 (see i too make random comments) 23:38:24 \o/ 23:39:48 !logs 23:47:40 (and yes, the workaround involves exhausting your pid space by forking until it wraps around and hits the value you're expecting) 23:47:48 this reminds me of anarchy golf 23:48:18 doesn't mitsuhiko play anagolf or something 23:48:22 maybe I'm misremembering a name 23:49:19 hmm, perhaps 23:49:22 although that was a different context 23:50:38 hmm, what was the context? 23:56:42 elliott: working around a bug in Upstart 23:56:49 also: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/19kjr5/fizzbuzz_revisited_using_rust/c8p452k 23:56:59 someone's unfinished attempt to write FizzBuzz in Homespring 23:57:09 I applaud them for trying (and in fact, for having heard of the language) 23:57:14 beautiful 23:57:48 at least, they didn't say it was Homespring, but it's obvious 23:58:38 I would find these select encode and decode operations to both be very useful in various C programs I write. 23:59:12 Would you find it useful? 2013-03-04: 00:02:26 zzo38: it's rare that they come up 00:02:39 also C already has a well-known select function that does something entirely different 00:02:42 I find it come up a lot, actually 00:02:42 and it's not common enough to use ~ for it 00:02:48 so you'd have to use a different name, like iselect 00:02:52 or ¢ 00:02:59 I was thinking I wanted to use ~< and ~> for those two operations 00:04:52 I don't get all the fizzbuzzes 00:05:27 It's like Hello World, except takes about half a second more thought. 00:06:08 ais523: Did you ever have anything that you would use it, though? 00:06:22 zzo38: it would have been useful in writing C-INTERCAL 00:06:36 ais523: Yes, but that isn't what I meant. 00:06:48 :t (~<) 00:06:50 Not in scope: `~<' 00:06:50 Perhaps you meant one of these: 00:06:50 `<' (imported from Data.Ord), 00:06:52 apart from that, only when writing an FFT, and even then, the version of bit-reverse in terms of select isn't as clear as the implementation in terms of more usual bitwise operators 00:06:53 :t (~>) 00:06:54 Not in scope: `~>' 00:06:54 Perhaps you meant one of these: 00:06:54 `>' (imported from Data.Ord), 00:07:34 Why would you need anything more than putStrLn.unlines.map(\x->case(x)of(x`mod`15==0)->"FizzBuzz";(x`mod`3==0)->"Fizz";(x`mod`5==0)->"Buzz";otherwise->show(x))$[1..100] 00:07:43 Why indeed. 00:07:48 Hike 00:07:54 Hatchet. 00:08:00 haha 00:08:14 FreeFull: now can you translate that to Homespring? 00:08:15 Wait, that code doesn't work 00:08:15 @fresh 00:08:15 Hajl 00:08:24 ais523: Well, I have had things where I wanted to use, in various other programs too, such as in a Famicom pattern and nametable editor, and in a program to write music for the General Instrument AY-3-8910 00:08:25 FreeFull: I'm afraid you're not qualified for this position. 00:08:38 And in a few other things too. 00:08:42 zzo38: I've never tried writing any of those programs 00:08:45 I do like how Template Haskell separates the concept of producing code from the concept of custom syntax 00:08:51 > map(\x->case(x)of(x`mod`15==0)->"FizzBuzz";(x`mod`3==0)->"Fizz";(x`mod`5==0)->"Buzz";otherwise->show(x))$[1..100] 00:08:53 :1:19: Parse error in pattern: x `mod` 15 00:09:02 FreeFull: i thought that looked fishy 00:10:15 writing a correct fizzbuzz first time without something to warn you about syntax errors is probably quite difficult 00:10:16 ais523: But I have found it useful in other things too, I mean 00:10:24 oerjan: It'd be even more fishy in Homesprint 00:10:28 Homespring 00:10:31 ais523: hmm, now I kind of want to write a formally verified fizzbuzz 00:11:00 uh you can't prove anything about imperative programs sorry 00:11:10 Bike: um when did I say it would be imperative 00:11:19 > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of 15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show x|x<-[1..100]] 00:11:20 "1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Bu... 00:11:22 `run perl -lpe 'for my $x (1..100) { print ($x % 15 == 0 ? "FizzBuzz" : $x % 5 == 0 ? "Buzz" : $x % 3 == 0 ? "Fizz" : $x); }' 00:11:22 * elliott has been trying to prove some things about imperative programs, in Coq. 00:11:30 > map(\x->case()of_|(x`mod`15==0)->"FizzBuzz"|(x`mod`3==0)->"Fizz";|x`mod`5==0)->"Buzz"|otherwise->show(x))$[1..100] 00:11:31 :1:18: parse error on input `|' 00:11:32 let's see if I did it first time 00:11:41 I may need to do it again because of HackEgo startup time 00:11:49 oh bleh 00:11:53 No output. 00:11:55 `run perl -le 'for my $x (1..100) { print ($x % 15 == 0 ? "FizzBuzz" : $x % 5 == 0 ? "Buzz" : $x % 3 == 0 ? "Fizz" : $x); }' 00:11:56 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 00:12:06 does invoking the interpreter incorrectly count? 00:12:08 -!- monqy has joined. 00:12:10 the program itself was right 00:12:41 elliott: use game semantics! 00:13:04 ais523: for what? 00:13:13 for fizzbuzz! 00:13:37 elliott: proving things about imperative programs 00:13:56 oerjan: Clever 00:14:04 thanks 00:14:29 oerjan: Too many spaces though 00:14:31 ais523: unconvinced that would help :P 00:14:49 elliott: it's one of the main applications that was found for it 00:15:02 yes but what I'm doing is sort of weird 00:15:21 why are we fizzbuzzing 00:15:37 Phantom_Hoover: because someone tried and failed to write fizzbuzz in Homespring 00:15:44 and I mentioned it here because here was the appropriate channel 00:15:53 FreeFull: um there's just one space 00:16:10 which i left in because removing it would add characters 00:17:38 One space is too many 00:17:45 hm does lambdabot have bang patterns 00:17:47 It's totally reasonable to consider making a Haskell monad for producing code in another (crappy) language, right? 00:17:52 > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show x|x<-[1..100]] 00:17:54 "1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Bu... 00:17:55 sure!! 00:18:04 there you go then 00:18:08 :t (!) 00:18:09 Ix i => Array i e -> i -> e 00:18:24 FreeFull: it's not the operator, it's a strictness modifier on a pattern 00:18:33 Ah =P 00:18:38 And you can apply it to of 00:18:43 oerjan: is there any reason to strict the pattern? in order to leave no spaces in the program? 00:18:44 there's also a laziness modifier ~, but it wouldn't work there 00:18:49 FreeFull: to 15, actually 00:18:58 ais523: that was what FreeFull demanded :P 00:19:01 strict 15 00:19:01 right 00:19:21 FreeFull: entirely redundant semantically there, of course 00:19:25 also is there any difference in evaluation order between stricting and not stricting that pattern? 00:19:32 clearly it produces the same result 00:19:34 because gcd is total 00:19:35 ais523: not in that case, no 00:19:43 case of is strict by default 00:19:44 yeah, I meant in that case 00:19:49 let is lazy by default 00:20:00 itt fizzbuzz 00:20:20 well the original /original/ article was about demonstrating how pattern matching works by giving fizzbuzz as an example 00:20:25 ais523: adding a lazy ~ modifier _would_ break it. 00:20:25 so we've sort-of gone full circle 00:20:26 > let 5 = 6 in 5 00:20:28 5 00:20:33 the original what 00:20:33 oerjan: hmm, why? 00:20:36 > let !5 = 6 in 5 00:20:36 > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of~15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show x|x<-[1..100]] 00:20:37 *Exception: :3:5-10: Non-exhaustive patterns in pattern binding 00:20:37 can't find file: L.hs 00:20:38 elliott: original article 00:20:40 of what 00:20:53 elliott: I linked the channel to an unfinished attempt at FizzBuzz in Homespring 00:21:00 which was written in a comment to a Reddit post 00:21:01 ah 00:21:01 hm that's weird 00:21:27 and Homespring, which has nothing even remotely resembling arithmetic, is a pretty hard language to write FizzBuzzes in 00:21:29 i thought that should give a list of FizzBuzz only, but not actually err out 00:21:58 how do you get non-exhaustive patterns when one of them is _? 00:21:59 because ~15 means "don't actually check the pattern until a variable in it is evaluated" and there is no variable in it 00:22:02 > unwords [case x `gcd` 15 of ~15 -> "FizzBuzz" | x <- [1..100]] 00:22:04 "FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz FizzBuzz Fi... 00:22:13 maybe your extra cases are doing weird things. 00:22:13 deep 00:22:20 elliott: huh 00:22:21 i.e. the ~15 just becomes _irrefutable_ 00:22:26 rather than actually lazy 00:22:32 > unwords [case x `gcd` 15 of ~15 -> "FizzBuzz"; _ -> "hello" | x <- [1..100]] 00:22:34 mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs... 00:22:39 um, nice 00:22:57 i want to see the rest of the error! 00:23:04 elliott: i think we've found a bug in ghc :P 00:23:35 i don't get it locally (7.6.2) 00:24:10 http://sprunge.us/FbAX 00:24:50 No error here http://ideone.com/JRGZGo 00:24:51 ah ok then 00:25:13 > unwords [case 14 of ~15 -> "a", _ -> "b"] 00:25:14 Pattern syntax in expression context: _ -> "b" 00:25:16 err 00:25:31 > unwords [case 14 of ~15 -> "a"; _ -> "b"] 00:25:33 mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs... 00:25:34 ais523, you put , instead of ; 00:25:36 yeah 00:25:44 lambdabot/hint bug I assume? 00:25:48 > case 1 of ~2 -> 2; _ -> 1 00:25:49 sucks 00:25:50 mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs... 00:25:57 there we go, I guess that's a minimal test case 00:25:59 wait is that like four nested errors 00:26:01 cool 00:26:17 Bike: only three nested errors are visible there, but there might be more 00:26:41 i mean it's UnknownError, said, GhcError, errMs[g] 00:26:44 mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMsg = \":3:1:\\n Warning: Pattern match(es) are overlapped\\n In a case alternative: _ -> ...\"} 00:26:45 ]" 00:26:45 Prelude> case 1 of ~2 -> 2; _ -> 1 00:26:57 my ghci gave the same warning, and returned 2 00:27:13 sweet 00:27:27 someone who knows more Haskell than me will need to explain whether the fault is in my understanding of Haskell, or of ghc's 00:27:34 (I'm guessing it's mine) 00:27:40 that is the correct result 00:27:44 ~ makes the pattern irrefutable 00:27:51 ah right 00:27:55 thus it forces the 1 to match 2? 00:27:56 (and hence, lazier) 00:28:00 ais523: it blithely assumes it does 00:28:04 yeah 00:28:09 consider also case undefined of ~(x,y) -> "hello" ++ show x ++ show y 00:28:09 and then because the internals of the 2 aren't used anywhere 00:28:20 it doesn't notice anything is wrong 00:28:23 or fix (\ ~(x:xs) -> 1:x:xs) 00:28:25 yeah 00:28:28 (which would be too strict without the ~) 00:28:36 (since, what if it's []? it'd want to give an error) 00:28:55 right, this makes sense 00:29:21 oh wait that line still has a space in it 00:29:32 hey you all are nerds right? what's a reader for android that'll let me read public domain text files without pausing to redownload everything every two minutes 00:29:37 > unwords[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show$x|x<-[1..100]] 00:29:38 "1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Bu... 00:29:48 like how hard can it be to present text to me 00:29:48 Bike: that problem sounds suspiciously practical 00:29:54 FreeFull: MOAR FIXED 00:29:56 it's horribly practical ;_; 00:30:04 you could… write your own? 00:30:14 I don't know of one offhand, not owning an android phone 00:30:35 oerjan: Might as well use unlines 00:30:57 > unlines[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show$x|x<-[1..100]] 00:30:58 "1\n2\nFizz\n4\nBuzz\nFizz\n7\n8\nFizz\nBuzz\n11\nFizz\n13\n14\nFizzBuzz\n1... 00:31:08 it's not immensely pretty 00:31:13 > var$unlines[case(x`gcd`15)of!15->"FizzBuzz";3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";_->show$x|x<-[1..100]] 00:31:14 1 00:31:15 2 00:31:15 Fizz 00:31:15 4 00:31:15 Buzz 00:31:16 [11 @more lines] 00:31:52 :t var 00:31:53 String -> Sym a 00:32:04 Interesting 00:32:29 it's a nice trick for unquoting a string lambdabot prints 00:33:48 > var "I like pie" 00:33:49 I like pie 00:33:51 var is only used because of its show method, right? 00:33:59 yep 00:34:16 > var $ ulines["foo","`echo hi"] 00:34:18 Not in scope: `ulines' 00:34:18 Perhaps you meant one of these: 00:34:19 `lines' (importe... 00:34:21 > var $ unlines["foo","`echo hi"] 00:34:21 > var "\0332" 00:34:22 mueval-core: : hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character) 00:34:22 can't find file: L.hs 00:34:25 :t repeat 00:34:27 a -> [a] 00:34:35 FreeFull: lambdabot's Unicode support is buggy 00:34:43 ais523: i think you got a race condition 00:34:45 yeah 00:34:45 > var . take 100 $ repeat '\n' 00:34:47 > var $ unlines["foo","`echo hi"] 00:34:48 Terminated 00:34:49 foo 00:34:49 `echo hi 00:34:57 oh, it remembered the leading space that time 00:35:23 it always does, it just has two on the first one 00:35:33 oh right 00:36:08 > var "\xe2\x99\xa5" 00:36:09 mueval-core: : hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character) 00:36:15 Dammit 00:37:21 > var "\180" 00:37:23 mueval-core: : hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character) 00:37:36 it seems like it only allows ASCII... 00:37:50 or possibly things get double encoded 00:40:57 > var "\x40" 00:40:59 @ 00:46:15 Will it work in GCC for one module to specify that a type does not alias while in another module the same type does alias? 00:46:56 Furthermore, does it work in LLVM? 00:49:24 i think someone mentioned segways http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/kellermannen/ 00:52:06 Will structures alias each other if one has an anonymous member having the type of the other structure as its first element? 00:55:44 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:59:09 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:24:52 It's just that I see a lot of words with no point to them. Then I look to the left and it says . <-- i suggest reading from left to right would at least allow you break after 'hagb4rd' and not to waste your time :p 01:26:06 See, there's a useful suggestion. 01:26:23 cool ;) 01:31:02 not if you're using a client with decent justification 01:31:33 Phantom_Hoover: do you have a hihlight on hagb4rd? 01:32:30 no, hagb4rd, i just happened to check the channel 5 minutes after that exchange and half an hour after anything worthwhile was said 01:32:51 ok 01:34:53 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:34:58 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:47:10 So nervous about tomorrow 01:47:18 Still sad about that other place though 01:47:29 If I screwed up with them, how can I avoid screwing up with Ipreo? 01:47:49 maybe you could not screw up the thing you screwed up before 01:48:03 I don't know exactly what I screwed up, though. 01:50:07 Maybe agreeing to send one of my worst pieces of code? 01:51:06 Which we barely talked about on the phone -- after a lengthy discussion about a piece of code which they suddenly decided was too long ago to look at. 01:53:08 maybe they just chose someone else over you 01:54:39 Sgeo: you didn't send them a piece of esolang code, did you? 01:55:04 I did not, unless you consider Tcl to be an esolang. 01:55:23 anyway: good luck! 01:55:26 But sending Tcl to a company that likes functional programming -> bad idea? 01:55:28 hagb4rd, thanks 01:55:52 why didn't you just send some häskéll 01:56:36 That wasn't what they asked for. I don't think I have any Haskell stuff listed on my resume. And the one project that I _could_ reasonably send that I did in Haskell seems a bit ... awkward to mention to potential employers 01:56:44 (It was a thing to attempt to manage speed dating things) 01:56:59 are you, like, victorian 02:01:56 just make it about 'speed interviews' instead 02:02:22 I don't think that would quite work 02:04:06 try to ask many questions, with an atitude of "what do you have to offer, so i'd like to work for you" 02:05:26 Sgeo: close enough? 02:05:40 Not really 02:05:42 Brb 02:08:23 It took as input number of straight/bi/gay men and women, and tried to match them up for each round 02:09:07 i read that as (straight/bi/gay men) and women 02:09:25 that sounds pretty generalizable 02:10:14 My algorithm sucked 02:10:26 did you use the list monad 02:10:30 it seems like it'd be useful 02:10:47 Yes. But the algorithm emits non-ideal results 02:11:08 like matching bi on gay? or what? 02:11:28 Say 3 straight men and 3 straight women. First round: m1-f1 m2-f2 m3-f3. Second round: m1-f3 m3-f1 no-match... 02:11:45 It doesn't manage to minimize people sitting out or number of rounds 02:12:15 I made the algorithm much uglier in attempts to at least minimize the pain 02:12:21 btw that doesn't seem that embarassing 02:12:38 Yeah, what are you, Victorian? 02:12:51 strikes me as an obvious "well here's a vaguely real-world application" thing 02:21:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:22:52 for a "straight situation" you could have just "shift" men OR women to the next table 02:23:08 `olist 02:23:16 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 02:23:31 hagb4rd, correct. But it needs to generalize to mixed situations 02:23:44 There's probably a smarter way to handle it than brute-forcing 02:24:01 oerjan, this one is 877. 02:24:02 yea, thinking of that it's not THAT trivial 02:24:39 at least if we don't want to discriminate the dedrophiles 02:25:18 darn, my cache is _still_ stuck despite losing my visited links marking... 02:25:33 Any case where there are no bisexuals is trivial 02:25:49 yep, i thought so 02:26:11 oerjan, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html hth 02:26:17 you should rewrite this as a graph coloring problem. 02:27:31 I don't know graph theory. 02:28:05 or better: graph coloring solution :p 02:28:56 selling solutions is easier than selling problems 02:29:08 It's pretty easy. You have some dots and some lines and you can look up the answer becaue it was probably worked out decades ago. 02:31:23 so the question ist what have graphs in common with dots and lines 02:31:59 They're made out of dots and lines! Or in "the lingo", "nodes" or "vertices" and "edges". 02:32:02 Did I just blow your mind? 02:32:13 you don't say 02:53:56 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:54:02 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:01:11 Thgeo 03:06:23 Template Haskell Sgeo? 03:07:10 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 03:07:11 Bike: why are they called "edges" 03:07:16 awful name imo 03:07:32 It has an edge to it 03:07:51 shachaf: euler's "bridges" never really caught on 03:08:05 how about "lines" 03:08:28 They tried that for a while, but then the geometers came around with bats. 03:08:50 Lines aren't abstract enough. 03:09:47 oh they are: the shortest conjuction between two points. but they don't feel comfortable with language anyone could understand 03:10:08 it just wouldn't feel right 03:10:21 Well, in graph theory edges don't usually have geometric length in the same way as uh, lines, do. 03:10:35 Wouldn't each edge have length 1? 03:10:37 you don't need metrics or nuthin. 03:11:20 What about topological geometry guys 03:11:21 Each edge is 1 edge in length. 03:11:39 a-b-c 03:11:55 a and b are 1 edge from eachother. The distance between a and c is 2 edges. 03:12:09 a-b-c 03:12:09 each edge is one edge in length. that's pretty deep. 03:12:10 \ / 03:12:18 v 03:12:25 ...didn't think that one through! 03:12:28 let's try this again 03:12:30 a-b-c 03:12:31 \ / 03:12:43 -!- Fiora has left. 03:12:48 d 03:12:49 -!- Fiora has joined. 03:13:04 Graphs aren't easy. 03:13:16 just convert it to a monoid 03:15:06 Oh, graphs actually do form metric spaces. Oopsie. 03:15:08 a─b─c 03:15:09 └───┘ 03:15:14 THERE 03:15:34 Thanks, box drawing characters. 03:15:48 Oh 03:15:52 Anyway then you'd usually say all of a b and c are one away from one another. 03:15:54 ywachaf 03:15:56 is that comparable with algorithms like A* ..in which an edge still can have a different value than? 03:15:57 graph { a--b; b--c; a--c; } 03:16:02 hagb4rd: Weights. 03:16:10 weight..sorry yes 03:16:20 Why are they weights and not masses 03:16:24 So geocentric 03:16:38 Because 03:16:44 (not to mention cumbersome) 03:16:49 Jafet does not understand the gravity of the situation 03:17:14 and yes, A* is a pathfinding algorithm for graphs of course. 03:17:52 That's a heavy thought to ponder. 03:18:07 @brain are you pondering what Jafet is pondering? 03:18:08 Well, I think so, Brain, but do I really need two tongues? 03:18:15 yea.. a good practical example is the shortest way in lenth != the sortest time you need to go 03:18:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 03:18:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 03:18:33 so weight is more general than length 03:18:49 depending on context 03:19:46 every edge can have a different weight.. at least the relations stay the same..right? 03:19:53 what relations 03:20:02 the "lines" 03:20:26 like streets 03:20:38 or whatever 03:20:44 to keep things simple 03:21:54 still i don't see clear how exactly that would solving the speed dating problem (which doesn't mean it would not) 03:22:47 *would help 03:22:47 because you could reframe it easily as graphshit and then use some known algorithm. 03:23:14 sounds reasonable 03:26:16 Graphshit theory 03:34:34 grapeshot theory 03:35:27 A whiff of graphshit 03:36:04 can i help you 03:37:37 grapeshot is a shitstorm 03:39:01 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 03:44:52 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:53:27 http://intothecontinuum.tumblr.com/post/21482592732/mathematica-code-p-t-1-0-9-cos-8-t-1 03:54:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:54:38 kmc: whoa man. drugs. 03:55:16 no 420s in the code :/ 03:55:21 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:55:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:57:35 that reminds me of http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CannabisCurve.html thank you wolfram mathworld 03:58:06 I wonder if there are any pretty curves involved with analysis of the endocanniboid system. 03:58:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 03:58:14 "Botanical Terminology" 03:58:29 man i cannot spell that word 03:59:54 kmc: A lot more in that category than I'd ever have expected. 04:17:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:18:15 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:42:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:54:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:02:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:06:07 Wonder if Randall opened up a can of security worms with people taking latest xkcd too seriously... 05:07:16 ☺ 05:07:45 aw man, goatkcd hasn't updated yet. 05:07:56 :☹) 05:44:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:45:04 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:45:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:47:58 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:57:40 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:08:53 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:09:13 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 06:30:36 sgeo: hah 06:31:35 -!- augur has joined. 06:41:18 Sgeo: Those that don't understand sarcasm? 06:43:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:44:58 -!- augur has joined. 06:48:30 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:58:37 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:58:50 -!- surma has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:18:49 -!- surma has joined. 07:28:02 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:39:59 -!- azaq23 has joined. 07:47:29 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:51:57 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:20:08 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:40:20 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:05:33 -!- nooga has joined. 09:06:55 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 09:10:33 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:10:44 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:12:48 -!- nooga has joined. 09:22:22 -!- iamcal_ has joined. 09:27:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:27:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:17:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:17:48 Is there program viewing .ods file without needing editing feature and all that stuff? 10:18:19 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:27:52 % apt-cache search '\' 10:27:53 odt2txt - simple converter from OpenDocument Text to plain text 10:28:10 Good enough? 10:28:50 I,I simple converter from WordArt to plane text 10:34:42 shachaf++ 10:39:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:43:24 -!- phiscribe has joined. 10:45:34 Giraffes http://imgur.com/a/EiQ5t http://i.imgur.com/Kkhghkj.jpg 10:46:01 Giraffes are a bit like crystal meth 10:46:18 can i be a giraffe 10:46:23 thx 10:46:24 yes 10:46:27 yay 10:46:28 I love giraffes. 10:46:37 They are so long. 10:47:00 monqy: Do you know a good way to draw categories? 10:47:08 draw categories? 10:47:08 Something that expresses all the information in a category. 10:47:14 Rather than just the objects and arrows. 10:47:15 all the information? 10:47:25 The normal objects/arrows doesn't show you what composes to what. 10:47:35 ah 10:48:06 the solution is clearly a heckload of commutative diagrams??? 10:49:03 Something like http://phpsadness.com/static/pages/sad/52/order-full-eq.png 10:54:11 Is php a category 10:54:41 Someone should write a “PHP is a monad” tutorial. 10:56:07 bad idea bad idea bad idea 10:56:21 "PHP is PHP" 10:56:24 The group generated by bad ideas??? 10:56:28 i'd rather write "PHP is a mistake" tutorial 10:56:33 Do bad ideas have inverses 10:56:59 is there such a thing as an idea that is not bad 10:57:14 a good idea 10:57:42 An idea that is still bad but would completely cancel out another bad idea 10:57:46 Well, the inverse of a bad idea could be another bad idea 10:58:03 (which is mandatory in a group generated only by bad ideas) 11:05:35 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:07:13 How does PHP compare to ASP 11:08:06 `erflist 11:08:07 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found 11:08:50 nobody cares about error functions, Sgeo 11:09:05 taneb: You can implement an SQL injection vulnerability in both. 11:09:31 ion: does ASP at least have consistent function names? 11:10:20 ASP is not a language, is it? 11:11:33 Hmm, it's a framework 11:11:52 So, its function names are as good as VB.NET's 11:12:39 Oh, you mean ASP.NET? 11:12:47 That's a completely different thing from ASP, of course. 11:14:14 I'm sort of meaning everything at once 11:14:15 Ignore me 11:14:30 oerjan: oh thank you for the welcome 11:16:07 > div (4*10^10) (10^10) :: Int 11:16:09 4 11:16:37 AND THAT IS MY CUE TO LEAVE 11:16:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Page closed). 11:16:49 `relcome atehwa 11:16:52 ​atehwa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 11:17:20 Sgeo: Did you ever help the Dylan folks? 11:17:38 No 11:17:52 Unless a little discussion counts as helping 11:17:58 I should really go back to sleep 11:25:44 hello, how would you describe what a first class function and a higher order function are? 11:25:52 That's an... interesting way to phrase that question 11:26:16 If e didn't know what those are, wouldn't e ask "What is a first-class function and a higher order function?"? 11:27:06 very insightful 11:27:13 have you considered a creer in psychology 11:28:10 sgeo: What happened to your h key? 11:28:24 Spivak took it. 11:28:46 And my heart 11:28:55 Spivakuüm 11:30:13 shachaf: ((),()) > I,I 11:30:41 No 11:30:48 "I,I" is an owl face 11:30:57 "((),())" is some kind of bug or something. 11:34:07 Oh. Huh. When i was “((),())” i thought it looks like an owl. When i was “I,I” i thought it’s some weird anime emoticon. 11:34:23 saw 11:35:07 I seem to start making word substitution typos when i have been awake for too long. 11:36:31 ((),()) may also be part of a spider or something. 11:36:34 Who can say? 11:48:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:52:17 It is just some parentheses and comma; what it means depends on the context. 11:56:16 Why is there an ASP.NET but not a Python Web 11:56:29 use WSGI 12:11:10 probably using modwsgi 12:11:13 and then go Django 12:11:56 ((),()) is definitely an owl 14:03:28 specifically, a horned owl 14:04:04 |\ /| 14:04:04 ((),()) 14:04:30 insufficiently angry looking, but what can you do 14:06:31 -!- boily has joined. 14:06:56 i guess it could be a sawhet owl 14:08:08 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:16:50 I should learn to notice things like receiving an email that says "Monday, March 5th" 14:17:06 I remember we discussed Monday on the phone, so I do think it is today.' 14:17:51 what's today ? 14:18:44 Monday, March 4th. 14:25:57 Pungenday, Chaos 63rd. 14:28:20 -!- ogrom has joined. 14:33:56 -!- carado_ has joined. 14:34:35 -!- carado_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:38:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:50:16 Sgeo: When will you be back? 14:50:33 Be back later. Phone interview soon. 14:50:43 Yes, that was an amsg. 14:51:02 I was going to ask when your phone interview was! 14:51:05 What a coïncidence. 14:51:39 Freenode doesn't really like amsg 14:51:48 amsg ? 14:51:54 That message didn't get sent to a few channels because I was targetting channels too fast 14:51:56 all message 14:52:04 is there any bot that logs stats about diaeresis usage? 14:52:07 Hmm, maybe Freenode is trying to tell you something. 14:54:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:55:49 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:02:58 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 15:09:56 boily: Yes, glogbot. Or at least, it does if you're willing to dig thru the data and find the statistics you want. 15:10:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:33:42 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:34:27 -!- augur has joined. 15:37:27 -!- carado has joined. 15:40:54 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:47:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:47:26 They said they were a little concerned about my lack of database experience 15:47:36 Other than that, I think it went well 15:48:06 Also, the very first question he asked was one I had no idea about 15:50:04 What was the first question? 15:50:24 What gac is in .NET 15:50:40 No idea myself, never used .NET 15:58:15 what is .NET? :p 15:58:45 A sicromoft thing 16:04:43 I don't care if it's Microsoft. It has first-class functions and Java doesn't. 16:05:35 haha 16:07:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:08:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:27:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:28:09 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:28:37 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 16:39:30 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 16:44:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:46:41 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:50:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 16:52:17 -!- boily has joined. 17:03:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:04:23 Oh dear, I think this Windows partition may be broken beyond repair. 17:05:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:13:54 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:18:14 Um. Just got an email about a position for a "sr. web crawler" 17:19:15 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 17:20:38 Sgeo, what responsibilities are there for that role? 17:21:37 Oh, it's about creating/maintaining a web crawler 17:21:40 Not _being_ a web crawler 17:21:49 That sounds a lot better 17:22:40 I hope the "sr." is short for Seor 17:25:15 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:34:40 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 17:36:32 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:36:44 -!- carado has joined. 17:38:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:40:18 -!- jix has joined. 17:42:38 http://codepad.org/Svmi1KGx 17:42:50 ^- maybe doing garbage collection this way is not the best way to do it :) 17:43:40 but I don't know how I could else tell the gc that a variable has left it's scope. 17:43:46 *its 17:47:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:49:09 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:50:20 According to #haskell, I'm a man human. 17:51:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:52:18 Redundant. 17:52:20 :) 17:52:23 huwoman 17:53:43 hm. 17:53:54 also... reference counting is vulnerable to cyclic references 17:55:38 I think there's a koan about that 17:56:18 Is your Dungeons&Dragons character also a man human? 17:56:42 (including to be specific, the man, and the human) 17:56:49 mroman_: what the hell 17:57:25 Maybe you can use different things to keep track of reference just in case there is cyclic references, you need to do something about it. 17:57:26 coppro: I'm sorry....? 17:57:30 coppro: it's the man. it is human. it is also hu. 17:58:47 the taneb man human greets us 17:59:32 -!- Bike has joined. 18:00:58 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:01:00 mroman_: your garbage collector 18:01:23 zzo38, my D&D character is a dwarf 18:01:37 OK. 18:02:22 yeah 18:02:27 ref increases the reference count 18:02:31 deref decreases it 18:04:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:05:22 Oh god I'm seeing "garbage collection" and "reference count" in the same conversation. 18:05:31 JUST SAY NO TO REFERENCE COUNTING, BY ALL THAT IS HOLY 18:06:26 hehe 18:09:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:11:17 -!- Bike_ has joined. 18:13:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:16:25 http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/03/04/1238258/state-rep-says-biking-is-not-earth-friendly-because-breathing-produces-co2 I'm just gonna leave this here 18:16:38 1... reference... AH AH AH! 18:17:09 Whatever. 18:19:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:19:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:19:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:23:14 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 18:25:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:26:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:29:24 nortti: :-D 18:29:25 first rule of cabal: it always goes wrong 18:30:11 (iff you're running like a really outdated version and stuff) 18:34:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:42:58 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:43:03 But all (?) animals (including people!) will breathe 18:48:05 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:50:51 -!- carado_ has joined. 18:50:54 ouais 18:51:03 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:07 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado. 18:51:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:51:15 -!- carado has left. 19:09:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:11:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:13:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 19:13:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:14:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 19:17:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:17:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 19:17:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:18:14 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:20:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:20:49 http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/post/44462204757/simon-peyton-jones-adding-the-io-monad-to-haskell 19:22:54 :-D 19:23:24 what, you don't slap fishes on your meals? 19:24:48 (fish slapping being an altogether new type system) 19:25:04 Deewiant: that blog is very nice and relaxing :) 19:26:24 http://nekofont.upat.jp/ 19:27:21 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 19:27:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:30:08 I'm probably the only Homestuck/Haskell tumblr on tumblr 19:30:33 boily: Well spotted, so it is 19:30:48 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Client Quit). 19:31:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:31:34 :t fishSlap 19:31:35 Not in scope: `fishSlap' 19:31:39 Does anyone know why the documentation for Yamaha OPLL says it can be used with Teletext even though Teletext doesn't have music? 19:35:09 maybe there was a failed project to add music to teletext 19:38:19 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:38:23 kmc, like N64DD or that NES satellite system? 19:39:46 satellaview is the weirdest thing 19:40:11 Taneb: am I the only homestuck/SSE tumblr 19:40:16 yeah 19:43:16 How did oerjan's fizzbuzz go? 19:43:23 I have no idea how buildings in NYC work 19:43:38 Sgeo, there's generally a door and some windows 19:43:40 hth 19:43:54 zzo38: Does taking oxygen out of water count as breathing? 19:43:59 There's stores, and then there's the entrance for this compan 19:44:00 company 19:44:11 And then above it there's many many stories, all drab looking 19:44:14 Are those offices 19:44:20 Do the stores next to the company have offices there? 19:44:27 Who knows 19:44:53 Some of my friends stayed in a hotel in Edinburgh that was mostly above/behind some shops 19:44:56 Oh, maybe that thing is an entrance to the building, and Ipreo has a few offices in that building? 19:45:15 Especially since it's just marked with the address, not company name 19:45:42 Maybe they timeshare 19:46:41 Maybe it's a rich villain's lair and only looks drab from the outside 19:46:58 FreeFull: I don't think so, but I don't know? 19:47:11 Maybe it does. 19:47:18 NYC's a bit expensive for most villainy startups. 19:47:41 isn't villainy well-funded? 19:47:47 the truth about the world is that crime does pay 19:48:12 well, i'm assuming sgeo's going for indie evil. 19:48:22 we may be evil but we haven't sold out! 19:48:34 Ooh, looks like it's a short walk from the train station 19:48:35 :D 19:48:47 I'm liking this place more already 19:48:55 omg trains and new york and stuff 19:50:51 Crime *might* pay. 19:51:07 But it is risky and illegal. 19:51:12 Stealing live copper wires does not typically pay. 19:51:23 Stealing elevator cables less so 19:55:14 A villain doesn't have to break the law to be evil 19:55:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:56:01 -!- augur has joined. 20:00:51 FreeFull: Yes, but then, is it criminal? 20:02:31 No 20:02:39 Just evil 20:02:50 > Just (var "evil) 20:02:52 :1:17: 20:02:52 lexical error in string/character literal at end of input 20:02:54 > Just (var "evil") 20:02:56 Just evil 20:05:48 -!- metasepia has joined. 20:13:21 -!- nooodl has joined. 20:13:33 > Just (var "!") 20:13:35 Just ! 20:13:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:14:12 > fix show 20:14:14 "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\... 20:14:47 Almost like look-and-say with show 20:15:02 > show (fix show) 20:15:05 "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\... 20:15:11 Hm. Is there a fixed point of the look-and-say sequence... 20:16:01 1, 11, 21, 1211, 111221, 312211, 13112221, 1113213211, 31131211131221... 20:16:17 The first digit is going to keep going 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 3, ..., isn't it. 20:16:35 > fix ((<>) <$> id <*> map not) 20:16:39 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 20:16:44 > fix ((<>) <$> id <*> map not) :: [Bool] 20:16:48 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 20:19:24 tswett: there isn't one in the sequence 20:19:46 but for the function that you keep applying to get it, [2,2] is a fixed point 20:20:46 Does it have other fixed points? 20:21:07 i don't think so 20:21:24 I played the Pokemon game with rental, yesterday, and the day before, against my brother we switch sides afterward, this time I managed to win both times but first time I just got lucky. 20:26:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:27:26 He was first player and in that game you take turn to select the command starting with first player on each turn, so the second player can see how long it took for the first player to select his command. 20:28:58 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:29:48 Perhaps it would be better for it to alternate, like it is done in E-card? 20:38:34 In E-card, you have five minutes to select what card to play. In this game I was playing, the timer can be set up to 90 seconds. 20:38:51 Actually, I mean up to 99 seconds, or no limit. 20:38:56 I had it set to 90 seconds. 20:41:11 Is there any way I could use realWorld# or anything else with a # from GHC.Prim 20:42:45 It gets parsed as realWorld # 20:42:57 You have to enable the extension for MagicHash 20:43:31 Ah 20:46:26 University challenge: "Where's Turku? Where's Trondheim?" 20:46:45 "Where's Hexham? 20:46:46 " 20:46:48 (I wish) 20:51:22 sounds like #esoteric jeopardy... A: Turku Q: Where's Hexham? 20:53:21 -!- md_5 has joined. 20:56:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:56:15 -!- augur has joined. 20:59:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:03:38 I don't know what happen in this Pokemon game if the master clock expires. 21:03:50 02:57:58 Well, the inverse of a bad idea could be another bad idea 21:03:51 02:58:15 (which is mandatory in a group generated only by bad ideas) 21:04:31 Jafet: sorry, that does not obviously follow. at least if you take the analogy bad = negative, the statement is false for the integers. 21:04:45 hth 21:05:05 But what if, say, good=prime? There are no negative prime numbers. 21:05:26 `run echo "Newsflash: every single letter is 'U'" | uuu 21:05:28 Uuuuuuuuu: uuuuu uuuuuu uuuuuu uu 'U' 21:05:36 UUU 21:05:42 (aka QED) 21:06:07 But there are some ideas I have for what such things might want to do: [1] Commands are selected at random for both sides at maximum speed. [2] Whoever has more % of HP remaining wins. [3] Whoever has more happiness wins. [4] Whoever used up less time during their turns in total wins. [5] Whoever has the inferior team at the beginning of the battle wins. [6] It is always a draw. 21:06:10 That reminds me 21:06:18 Do you like any of this? 21:06:31 Gregor: no, but then obviously bad = composite, and the multiplicative group of rationals is still generated by those 21:06:40 zzo38, not keen on 6 21:08:20 Gregor: G gg gggggg; ggggg /g/ggggg. 21:08:38 Taneb: In all cases including [6] I only mean if the master clock expires, though. 21:08:47 Oh 21:09:00 In that case 6 is the best 21:09:16 As long as there's an "infinite time" option 21:09:24 5 would be hard to measure 21:09:47 4 and 2 are okay 21:09:56 Don't know enough about the game to comment on 3 21:10:07 1 I'm in two minds about 21:10:11 Well, yes. Actually, if there is an option, at least if I did it, you would be able to set the master clock to whatever or infinite, as well as to set what happen when it expires, and it would measure by computer so [5] is not being hard to measure. 21:11:06 I mean [4] is not being hard to measure. 21:11:20 [5] would be difficult unless the computer has levels or tiers perhaps! 21:11:28 With levels and tiers and stuff, it can be measured. 21:12:07 But there is another possibility: [7] The time-wasting threshold is set. If the difference of time used up is less than the threshold, it is a draw, otherwise whoever used up less time in total wins. 21:12:54 Of course probably you will use a shot clock and/or a chess clock as welll, regardless what option you set, if you hare a master clock at all. 21:13:10 Option [6] is like the rule in cricket. 21:13:41 Anyway, I need to bulk out the description of Underload 21:13:44 That I am writing 21:13:51 oerjan, interesting thing about Underload 21:14:27 Official Scrabble tournaments are played with shot clocks, and outside of Britain also with a master clock. Chess boxing uses all three clocks. 21:14:34 Taneb: what is? 21:14:42 oerjan, I'm asking for some 21:15:07 well the fact that it's TC with just 4 of its commands is something i find biasedly interesting :) 21:15:25 Some people prefer to play Scrabble with chess clocks instead. 21:15:36 What is a shot clock 21:15:51 boily, interesting thing about Underload 21:16:16 Shot clock means you have a timer to make your move on your turn, and is reset on every turn. 21:16:26 Right 21:16:51 In games that use that (such as snooker) that is what it is called, so probably it can be called the same in other games too. 21:18:35 Taneb: yes? underload is alreading interesting. more interest could cause some kind of wibbly-wobbly thing with our galactic black hole, and make the local supercluster implode. 21:18:36 Taneb: i believe elliott intends to feature Deadfish on April 1, so if Underload is featured now it will have less than a month. 21:18:58 oerjan, that means I can wait a bit longer for this 21:19:03 But I'd like it written 21:19:16 boily, I'm writing a description for the featured language 21:19:25 Because elliott doesn't want to and won't let ais523 21:19:41 yeah. i've been thinking vaguely that there should be a suggested blurb page under Esolang:Featured Languages/ 21:20:23 Taneb: a small interesting thing is that it has very short quines 21:20:39 without being specifically designed to have them (afaik) 21:21:51 ^ul (:a*S):a*S 21:21:59 oh no 21:22:05 in my egotistical opinion, I'd say aubergine would make for an interesting featured language. 21:22:09 fizzie: FUNGOT FATIGUE 21:22:21 !underload (:a*S):a*S 21:22:23 (obviously, I have absolutely no bias towards that particular language, no siree.) 21:22:24 ​:a*S(:a*S) 21:22:34 !underload (:~a*S):~a*S 21:22:34 ​:~a*S(:~a*S) 21:22:38 ... 21:22:40 I suck at this 21:22:59 !underload (:aSS):aSS 21:22:59 ​(:aSS):aSS 21:23:00 boily, I have a similar opinion of Fueue 21:23:32 !underload (:a~*S):a~*S 21:23:32 ​(:a~*S):a~*S 21:24:04 Taneb: now make one which embeds an arbitrary element 21:25:53 !underload (what)(~aS:a~*S)~aS:a~*S 21:25:54 ​(what)(~aS:a~*S)~aS:a~*S 21:27:06 Taneb: therefore, we need a cyclic aubergine/fueue quine. 21:27:27 Oh dear god 21:27:30 Is that even possible 21:28:19 a cyclic aubergine? sounds awesome 21:28:33 How did oerjan's fizzbuzz go? <-- see the logs hth 21:28:41 I'm the worst at quines 21:28:51 And I'm the guy who knows Fueue the third-best 21:29:11 who's the second best 21:29:18 Arc_Koen, of course 21:29:25 i suppose 21:30:14 hm we haven't written a Fueue quine yet, have we. or is that what you are trying? 21:30:31 Nah, boily was proposing a cyclic Aubergine/Fueue quine 21:30:38 ah 21:30:57 Imagine a cyclic Malbolge/ORK quine 21:31:04 ouch 21:31:56 "There is a scribe called bugger this" 21:34:36 -!- nooga has joined. 21:36:37 I think the Interactive Fiction database have no "disjunctive require" option for searching? 21:36:56 -!- fungot has joined. 21:37:03 But it does have "allow", "require", "prohibit", which is OK. 21:50:12 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 21:51:58 can any girl genius readers here tell me if there has been an update today? i'd like to know if my cache/whatever issue affects that as well. 21:52:22 It's updated MWF 21:52:22 still using IE? 21:52:23 So no 21:52:31 no, last update March 1st. 21:52:32 Taneb: um today is monday 21:52:37 Oh god 21:52:40 I thought it was Sunday 21:52:40 boily: thanks 21:52:50 eep 21:53:12 I thought yesterday was monday instead 21:53:33 olsner, so on average, we're right 21:53:35 Scheduling an appointment for possible internship, but what if that conflicts with scheduling a possible Ipreo in-person meeting' 21:53:54 schedule nothing and nothing will conflict 21:54:00 You could ask to reschedule either 21:54:13 olsner: the zen of management? 21:54:29 more like the zen of not using a calendar 21:54:33 wait, tao maybe 21:54:41 I think management is more about using a calendar 21:55:17 Do nothing twice at once and nothing will conflict with nothing 21:55:20 Ipreo will be understanding if they suggest a day and I say I'm not available that day, how about a different day? 21:56:10 hmm, probably tao, I suspect zen is not used that way ... I also suspect they are not from the same tradition either 21:56:32 tao isn't buddhistic 21:56:45 although they're both from china afaik 21:56:53 Taneb: the sound of one hand not having a scheduling conflict 21:56:57 oerjan: I don't keep logs 21:57:10 FreeFull: the bot logs. 21:57:19 hm i see a possible problem here. 21:57:23 lambdabot log 21:57:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:58:30 hm the #esoteric got swallowed 21:58:30 U're every single letter 21:58:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric welcomes its new prime minister, Ed "Brainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 21:58:37 Nothing here 22:02:08 What timezone is the bot using? 22:02:18 UTC? 22:03:30 oerjan: I'm gonna try to improve on your fizzbuzz 22:03:32 Using monads 22:03:40 Or rather the list monad 22:03:46 YOU GO AHEAD 22:03:53 try included lenses while you're at it 22:03:57 *-ing 22:04:11 glogbot uses UTC afaik 22:04:17 I don't know lens syntax 22:04:32 clog uses something weird USy 22:04:48 but lenses are so easy! 22:05:08 I think one of the bots is on new zeeland time 22:05:22 I guess that's the prevailing time zone in hexham 22:05:38 I think clog is Pacific time same as my timezone; glogbot uses UNIX time so it can be converted to whatever format you need. 22:05:59 HackEgo is on nz language settings, no idea about timezone 22:06:02 `time 22:06:04 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found 22:06:08 `date 22:06:09 Mon Mar 4 22:06:09 UTC 2013 22:06:13 nope 22:06:44 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:07:59 What types in Haskell can be regular reasoners? I think functors is one of them? 22:08:40 what is a regular reasoner 22:09:12 forall p and q: B(p -> q) -> B(Bp -> Bq) 22:09:35 :t fmap fmap 22:09:36 (Functor f1, Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> f (f1 a -> f1 b) 22:09:49 Yes, fmap fmap is what I was thinking of. 22:10:18 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:10:50 oerjan: I know 22:10:55 Applicatives 22:11:22 -!- Regis_ has joined. 22:11:57 :t fmap fmap fmap 22:11:59 (Functor f1, Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b) 22:13:28 zzo38: Are you talking about modal logic or something? 22:13:40 shachaf: Yes. 22:13:53 Does B mean "believe"? 22:14:02 Functor is not what you want for that. 22:14:30 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:14:40 I mean, they have that property, but they're too strong. 22:14:40 :t (fmap fmap fmap) 22:14:42 I know, but I mean that Functor is one thing that is able to make such a type. 22:14:42 (Functor f1, Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b) 22:14:54 shachaf: Yes, that is what I mean, too 22:15:17 it's doxastic logic (again). 22:17:09 Hey, Raymond Smullyan has a book on modal logic? 22:17:29 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:18:17 Bike: Why didn't you tell me? 22:18:27 I was asleep. 22:18:33 -!- wareya has joined. 22:18:53 Oh, is that in Mock a Mockingbird? 22:18:53 WELL WAKE UP 22:18:58 No, _Forever Undecided_ 22:19:34 (B(x), (x -> B(y))) -> B(y) 22:19:52 Holy hell, what a cover 22:20:16 don't judge a musician by their cover, Bike 22:20:42 Taneb: ? 22:21:10 shachaf, me being sleepy and trying to show that possibility is a Monad 22:21:22 wrong modal logic? 22:21:30 PERHAPS 22:21:32 You don't have quantifiers. 22:21:42 Is this pseudoHaskell? 22:22:23 It's "Taneb's awful syntax for a misunderstanding of formal logic and its variations, loosely inspired by Haskell" 22:22:51 Certainty isn't a functor... 22:23:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:24:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:25:37 `run echo -n "We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor" >wisdom/certainty 22:25:41 No output. 22:25:44 `? certainty 22:25:46 We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor 22:25:53 `run echo -n "We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor." >wisdom/certainty 22:25:57 No output. 22:26:42 is certainty a monoid 22:27:01 no, it's not that easy 22:27:28 (why is a dead horse looking at me disapprovingly) 22:28:09 `run cp wisdom/certain{t,l}y && sed -i 's/ty/ly/' wisdom/certainly 22:28:13 No output. 22:30:41 `? Jafet 22:30:43 Jafet? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 22:31:03 `? shachaf 22:31:05 shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. 22:31:13 ok. 22:31:21 To be fair, who doesn't? 22:32:50 I don't, it hasn't reached Canada yet. 22:33:01 hello guys 22:33:09 hi there! 22:33:15 evening 22:33:52 zzo38: what is the purpose of "allow"? 22:34:49 @tell Taneb just because I can tell my computer to interpret fueue doesn't mean I know anything about fueue :) 22:34:49 Consider it noted. 22:35:15 I had an exciting day today 22:35:55 `quote Jafet 22:35:56 825) I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX \ 850) The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt \ 955) This position is asking for "- Extensive experience with API" You're just not qualified, kid. 22:36:17 I wanted to go to the cinema to see Angelopoulos' post-mortem film, but at the last moment I remembered I had to play a game for the qualifications for the french youth go team 22:36:27 so I stayed home instead (qualifications are played on the internet) 22:36:36 then my opponent didn't show up 22:37:20 when the game was finally forfeited, I figured I still had enough time to run to the cinema to see Ben Affleck's Argo 22:37:44 I did so... but the theatre was full 22:38:31 Movies are seen on the internet 22:38:40 argo must be seen at the cinema. 22:38:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:39:09 French Youth Go could be a saturday morning TV show. 22:39:10 it's been a while since I've played go. I guess I'm now somewhere around 18~19 kyu. 22:40:40 boily: you should start again! 22:42:00 on the plus side, I chatted with the projectionist intern, who happens to be very cute 22:44:51 I turned to the shōgi side of the foce a long time ago, and nowadays I'm more of a mahjong player than anything else. 22:45:40 you're the second person I met who's gone from go to shogi 22:45:51 I should play some Go at some point 22:45:57 Except it's hard to score Go in person :( 22:46:01 I guess two is a fair retribution for the countless chess players who turned go players 22:49:37 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:49:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:08:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:09:21 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:12:32 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:29:13 ion: Remind me: Did you need → or End for that game? 23:29:41 boily: I can play shogi and mahjong, as well as chess and go 23:30:22 Arc_Koen: "allow" is simply the default setting; it doesn't actually mean anything. 23:30:42 zzo38: I know the rules of western chess, but can't play it. I'm better at xiangqi than shōgi. my mahjong is probably good, but my go is rust-y (har har har... *sigh* stupid pun.). 23:31:00 I can play xiangqi too. 23:31:48 let's have a chessgoshogixiangki tournament! 23:32:34 I claim mornington crescent by way of picadilly! 23:32:48 Resolve ko through a kickboxing match 23:33:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:56 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:35:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:39:57 What kinds of rules do you like to use with mahjong? 23:40:31 -!- Regis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:41:30 * Sgeo wants to try Backgammon 23:42:10 I know how to play backgammon too. 23:42:33 I don't want to play backgammon anymore. the dice always conspire against me. 23:43:29 boily: have you tried using two cups? so that they don't get an opportunity to talk 23:44:47 I want to play backgammon card. 23:47:05 Arc_Koen: good suggestion. I'll try it next time against my bro. 23:47:11 zzo38: that exists? 23:47:52 hmm you could replace the dice by decks of 1-2-3-4-5-6 cards 23:48:28 so if you've got a big number of 1s in the beginning, you know you're not gonna have many of them in the endgame 23:49:38 «Taupes et Compagnie» uses that concept, with a fixed stack of number-tokens. 23:49:45 (can't remember that game's English name) 23:50:36 -!- Bike has joined. 23:51:22 Hypergeometric distribution, in my backgammon? 23:51:24 boily: I don't know if it exists, but I want to play such game. 23:51:53 I generally prefer the games with cards than with dice. 23:51:58 Arc_Koen, zzo38: it is either "mole in the hole" or "under the ground". http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/321/the-mole-in-the-hole 23:52:21 boily: are you french? 23:52:59 Arc_Koen: no, from Montréal, Québec. 23:53:22 or right you mentioned canada earlier 23:55:10 Can you play Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering cards? 23:56:41 only magic. 23:56:44 boily:I'm from Montreal. is not a valid answer to are you French? 23:57:25 coppro: I'm not from France, therefore I'm not French. 23:57:48 Do you like Magic: the Puzzling? 23:57:50 Cockatrice was shut down :( 23:58:03 nooooooooooooooooooo! 23:58:05 darn. 23:58:07 coppro: Montreal isn't french, but Montréal 23:58:14 Jafet: fair 23:59:14 time to go eat. I'm hungry. 23:59:17 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 23:59:26 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2013-03-05: 00:00:04 I also like Magic: the Gathering puzzles and Pokemon card puzzles, and I like to compose Pokemon card puzzles, including the one requiring retreating at least three times, knocking out your own cards, and so on. 00:01:03 I play chess puzzles too, as well as tsume shogi, too. 00:01:11 zzo38: I saw a player use Restoration Angel to flash a token at the GP 00:02:01 Can you give me the text of that card, and the details of the situation? 00:02:54 too much effort 00:05:30 can someone copy the list at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying and email it to me? 00:06:22 `fetch http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying 00:06:25 2013-03-05 00:06:24 URL:http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Self-modifying [18477] -> "Category:Self-modifying" [1] 00:06:48 `mail 00:06:49 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mail: not found 00:06:51 coppro: Do you not remember? 00:07:19 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:09:10 I remember 00:09:17 I'm just too lazy. You can look up card texts yourself 00:09:27 @google mtg gatherer restoration angel 00:09:28 http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240096 00:09:29 Title: Restoration Angel (Avacyn Restored) - Gatherer - Magic: The Gathering 00:10:23 OK 00:10:39 What was the situation, however? 00:10:48 * oerjan wonders what kind of strange setup makes Arc_Koen unable to do the tranfer himself 00:11:01 *transfer 00:11:09 well the whole point is to compare what I see with what others see 00:11:20 ah 00:11:39 zzo38: there was a spell targeted at the token which he did not want to resolve 00:11:54 O, OK, yes, that would work. 00:12:10 `url Category:Self-modifying 00:12:13 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/Category%3ASelf-modifying 00:12:35 error: Category:Self-modifying@f368e91512e6: not found in manifest 00:12:38 I like that kinds of ideas. 00:12:43 hmm yes definitely different from what I see :p 00:12:44 hmph 00:12:53 `cat "Category:Self-modifying" 00:12:55 cat: "Category:Self-modifying": No such file or directory 00:13:03 `run cat 'Category:Self-modifying' 00:13:04 cat: Category:Self-modifying: No such file or directory 00:13:13 ho hum. 00:13:24 `undo 2374 00:13:29 patching file Category:Self-modifying 00:13:34 try now :P 00:13:36 I deletedetedeted it 00:13:51 thank you! 00:14:01 oh nooooo 00:14:01 It says "that card" but the first part doesn't say it has to be a card. 00:14:05 `run cat 'Category:Self-modifying' 00:14:07 ​ \ \ \ Category:Self-modifying - Esolang \ \ \ \ Under the current rules, does the token come back, though? 00:15:00 well it appears to be exactly what I see 00:16:01 `? ais523 00:16:02 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 00:16:12 ah 00:16:47 Arc_Koen: but what if your browser has a "trusting trust" problem, what then! 00:16:55 haha 00:17:29 "Warning: I cannot be trusted to display this webpage correctly. Display webpage?" 00:18:01 so how does mediawiki handle category page? for instance if you add a page to a category, when is the category page updated? 00:18:14 "eventually" 00:18:27 i thought it was pretty quick... 00:18:37 on esolang, anyway 00:18:50 I remembered you told me that 00:19:00 Jafet: wtf are you doing to rainwords :P 00:19:04 If it is a SQL query, it should do immediately if there isn't a cache of the query. 00:19:42 coppro: Do you know the answer to my rules question? They change the rules so I don't know what it is 00:20:42 oerjan: making it work on bin/rainwords 00:20:52 `run rainwords $(which rainwords) 00:21:08 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:21:21 YOU KILLED FUNGOT 00:21:23 No output. 00:21:38 i sense problems. 00:22:08 also exactly how didn't it work before... 00:23:08 `ls /usr/bin/python 00:23:10 ​/usr/bin/python 00:23:10 raw_input() reads one line 00:23:18 (I think we learned this recently) 00:23:23 oh. i was wondering more about the r thing 00:23:32 maybe that's not new 00:23:40 ooookay 00:23:50 `which python 00:23:52 ​/opt/python27/bin/python 00:24:07 `/usr/bin/python --versino 00:24:09 Unknown option: -- \ usage: /usr/bin/python [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information. 00:24:10 `/usr/bin/python --version 00:24:10 I just used my magic powers to update the category page, now it has 82 languages listed 00:24:11 Python 2.6.6 00:24:35 `run python -c 'r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print " ".join(chr(3) + c + ":-)" for c in r)' 00:24:37 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "", line 1, in \ File "", line 1, in \ TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'int' objects 00:24:45 `run python -c 'r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print " ".join(chr(3) + str(c) + ":-)" for c in r)' 00:24:46 ​:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 00:25:01 13 isn't very indigo, unfortunately 00:26:16 oh it's actually rainbow order :P 00:26:43 `rainwords What does this do then 00:27:01 i think there is a problem yes 00:27:14 No output. 00:27:59 `cat bin/rainwords 00:28:01 ​#!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + str(r[(i+s)%len(r)]) + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w) 00:28:14 oh wait 00:28:22 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:28:33 `run echo I think I remember the issue | rainwords 00:28:35 ​I think I remember the issue 00:28:38 I'm kind of confused as to how regular expressions are a single production rule (in the formal grammar sense) 00:28:48 `run yes | rainwords 00:29:00 hum maybe not ideal 00:29:03 kallisti_: ac*b generates ab, acb, accb, acccb, etc 00:29:09 Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/rainwords", line 2, in \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + str(r[(i+s)%len(r)]) + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w) \ MemoryError 00:29:13 Bike: no I understand that 00:29:16 oerjan: what do you think this is, haskell?? 00:29:24 Take your infinite streams and begone 00:29:26 `run yes | head -50 | rainwords 00:29:28 ​y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 00:29:41 oh wait maybe I misunderstand what a regular grammar is 00:29:44 to Wikipedia 00:29:45 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:29:46 !!! 00:29:59 it's just alternation and kleene star 00:30:07 oh and concatenation obv 00:30:14 regular expressions? yes 00:30:20 I'm trying to find the link between regular expressions and regular grammars 00:30:21 basically 00:30:47 oh I think I misread 00:30:48 "In regular grammars, the left hand side is again only a single nonterminal symbol, but now the right-hand side is also restricted. The right side may be the empty string, or a single terminal symbol, or a single terminal symbol followed by a nonterminal symbol, but nothing else." 00:31:06 so a regular grammar can have multiple production rules right? 00:31:13 yeah 00:31:16 okay 00:31:24 I misread and thought that it meant the grammar had only one production rule 00:31:28 which seemed... uh, strange. 00:31:31 http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/6/e/56e5e8888abe83d0f4f731bde2611d72.png wikipedia's example 00:31:40 `run ghc -e 'putStr $ replicate 100 "_,.-~^~-.,"' | rainwords 00:31:40 (for a+b+ in regex syntax) 00:31:44 ​ \ :1:24: \ Couldn't match expected type `Char' with actual type `[Char]' \ In the second argument of `replicate', namely `"_,.-~^~-.,"' \ In the second argument of `($)', namely \ `replicate 100 "_,.-~^~-.,"' \ In the expression: putStr $ replicate 100 "_,.-~^~-.," 00:31:47 ...that didn't work 00:31:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_grammar#Regular_grammars that. 00:32:07 Jafet: concat/join 00:32:21 `run ghc -e 'putStr $ take 999 $ cycle "_,.-~^~-.,"' | colorize 00:32:26 ​_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.- 00:32:37 `run ghc -e 'putStr $ take 200 $ cycle "_,.-~^~-.,"' | colorize 00:32:42 ​_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-., 00:32:50 ah okay, I simply misread what a regular grammar is. 00:33:20 `run python -c 'print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)" | colorize 00:33:21 bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file 00:33:22 `run yes ":D " | head -50 | tr -d '\n' | rainwords 00:33:24 ​:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D 00:33:27 `run python -c 'print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)"' | colorize 00:33:29 ​ File "", line 1 \ print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)" \ ^ \ SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/colorize", line 4, in \ w=raw_input() \ EOFError: EOF when reading a line 00:33:32 so this concept for an esolang I have 00:33:33 uuuuugh 00:33:38 is essentially a context-sensitive grammar 00:33:44 `run python -c 'print("_,.-~^~-.," * 100)' | colorize 00:33:45 where the production rules are operating on themselves 00:33:46 ​_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.-~^~-.,_,.- 00:33:51 whatever. 00:34:25 `tcc 00:34:26 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tcc: not found 00:34:34 What 00:34:35 `gcc 00:34:36 gcc: no input files 00:34:43 `icc 00:34:45 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: icc: not found 00:34:50 `clang 00:34:51 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: clang: not found 00:34:59 `fasm 00:35:00 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fasm: not found 00:35:07 `nasm 00:35:09 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nasm: not found 00:35:12 `g++ 00:35:14 g++: no input files 00:35:17 `as 00:35:35 hm is there an esolang based on linker command language 00:35:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:35:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 00:35:39 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:36:08 Bike: that seems redundant 00:36:20 No output. 00:36:21 Is there an esolang that randomly picks other esolangs to try running your code in? 00:36:40 Bike: colorize doesn't add colors beyond hackego's output limit of 350 bytes 00:36:48 boooooring 00:36:58 -!- augur has joined. 00:37:19 -!- Frooxius has joined. 00:37:31 Rainbows all the way across #esoteric 00:38:30 Fabulous. 00:40:01 Is coppro even on anymore? 00:40:31 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 00:46:46 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 00:51:37 Is there a way in Linux to access the text mode VRAM without root? 00:52:29 Furthermore, can you capture the text mode VRAM of a different virtual console in this way? 00:56:15 chmod /dev/mem and then you can :) 00:56:33 I don't want to access all of the memory though. 00:58:33 Can you put ACLs on /dev/mem 00:58:48 "there could be a legit use for this" 00:58:51 you can write a setuid helper for reading parts of /dev/mem 00:59:10 over a UNIX socket with SCM_CREDS 00:59:18 bad ideas itt 00:59:34 What would be the addresses of such screens anyways (also based on the numbers of rows and columns)? 00:59:51 dunno, you may have to source-dive the linux kernel 01:00:06 Source-dive the linux documentation 01:00:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:00:25 Are they the standard PC text mode formats? 01:01:14 I was thinking to have the program which writes the text VRAM of one virtual console to a file, with a header specifying the width/height. 01:01:37 Doing this is MZM layer mode. 01:03:10 Some people may want to have a ANSI screenshot of Linux screens, so you could then use MZM->ANSI to do that. 01:03:30 Does the linux console support 256 colors 01:03:54 As far as I know it is PC text mode. 01:07:53 I thought it used the framebuffer 01:08:12 can do either 01:08:14 I think it supports that too 01:08:57 I suppose you would need the framebuffer or other things though, if you are running Linux in the computer which is not PC. 01:11:16 You would need the framebuffer unless you enjoy running htop in 80x25 or whatever the VGA text mode is 01:12:31 i enjoy it very much 01:12:33 it's so easy 01:14:42 The default text mode is 80x25, but it seems to be able to run in various other sizes too. 01:20:13 Hrmph. Still no new OOTS 01:22:22 oots is the worst campaign ever 01:22:33 Who runs a campaign for ten years 01:24:26 How long do *you* run a champagne^Wcampaign? 01:25:00 Nobody lets me run a campaign 01:25:09 I'm not sure why 01:27:22 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:27:28 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:27:30 Then you must learn. 01:40:34 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 01:42:08 "In May 2006, Intel announced that 80386 production would stop at the end of September 2007." 01:48:34 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:06:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:25:20 In Dungeons&Dragons game, some people forced us to give them much of our things; much of which is not important but some are, so we need to get it back. 02:25:52 It seems they don't understand magic very well, so if we can somehow convince them that the amulet of anti-magic is actually a amulet of illusions? (note: My character is currently invisible) 02:27:06 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:27:57 Or if I find the single one, alone, which has the item we need, then I could safely stun them even though becoming visible, if I can surprise them. 02:28:46 I do think of the possibility that they are just trying to make us think they don't know magic and actually they do, but I find this not likely at this time. Nevertheless, I must consider all of the possibilities. 02:33:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:33:38 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: leaving as well). 02:48:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:49:13 `olist 02:49:17 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 02:50:51 Did I missed something else? 02:51:14 oerjan, ty 02:51:24 And I take it you got your cache issues sorted out? 02:51:40 no, i just went to the right number directly 03:08:06 -!- madbr has joined. 03:08:13 man 03:08:22 the 65816 is so impossible to pipeline 03:08:28 it's like it's designed against it 03:13:06 @hoogle m (x -> y) -> x -> m y 03:13:07 Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 03:13:07 Control.Monad ap :: Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 03:13:07 Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 03:13:23 :t (??) 03:13:25 Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 03:13:48 @hoogle m (x -> m y) -> x -> m y 03:13:49 Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 03:13:49 Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 03:13:49 Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 03:17:53 thoerjan 03:32:46 -!- monqy has joined. 03:45:42 zzo38: it is a card because once in exile, it is just a card 04:04:58 -!- abumirqaan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:07:06 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:07:56 -!- surma has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:08:00 -!- ssue has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:08:11 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:13:22 -!- jix has joined. 04:15:59 -!- ssue_ has joined. 04:20:41 -!- abumirqaan has joined. 04:34:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 04:34:31 -!- FireFly has joined. 04:38:31 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 05:08:00 coppro: I thought it is a token? 05:37:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:47:07 -!- iamcal_ has joined. 05:52:21 -!- monqy has joined. 05:55:13 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:01:57 -!- surma has joined. 06:20:15 -!- nooodl has joined. 06:31:25 zzo38: tokens cannot be returned to the battlefield once exiled 06:31:32 so that sentence wouldn't apply to them anyway 06:37:35 coppro: Yes it is what I thought might be the case 06:38:15 Do they cease to exist due to lack of initial state? How do the new rules work with this? 06:40:23 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:40:49 zzo38 : got any interest in synthesizer design? 06:41:17 madbr: Some. 06:48:18 Can you make a Pokemon card puzzle which involves retreating more than three times? What is the maximum number of times you can make it have? There is win in 1, win in 2, win in 3, even as much as win in thirty, can there be made a win in sixty? 06:49:54 Or make one involving a not 100% win but maximized chances? 06:55:07 madbr: What was your ask of interest in synthesizer design? 06:58:02 writing a synth atm 06:58:06 vst 06:58:58 zzo38: a token, once it has left the battlefield, cannot again change zones 06:59:08 it ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are performed 06:59:10 hhh38 07:01:42 coppro: Yes, those are the rules I thought but there are many things I dislike about the Magic: the Gathering rules that I think are very klugy; I don't like the rule of removing auras that are also creatures, for example, as well as other things. But, OK, now at least I can know what those rules are. 07:02:04 madbr: What synth are you writing? 07:02:13 physical model 07:03:48 I always use Csound for this kinds of stuff, it has physical models. But what specific physical model are you making? Maybe it is one I don't have. 07:05:03 going to have a couple "generic" models 07:05:12 one for wind instruments 07:05:26 and one for plucked strings with a variant for percussion 07:05:44 O, I already have things like that. 07:05:59 Still, I suppose yours might be useful for using with VST, I guess. 07:06:27 yeah but the ones in STK suck 07:06:45 dunno about the csound ones but they're probably not very good 07:07:16 O, OK, then. Are you able to license the files under the LGPL v2.1 and later version? 07:07:29 what files 07:09:04 The files to implement the physical model; in case it works better than the one in Csound then I can port it to Csound. 07:09:30 Actually Csound has a few generic models for wind instruments and plucked strings; one of the plucked string models is of a good quality. 07:11:30 Csound uses the LGPL v2.1 license, so my own plugins to Csound use the same license so that they could include it in the main program if they wanted to. 07:12:29 does that imply that the other plucked string models are bad 07:13:44 Not necessarily; it could also be that I configured them incorrectly or have bias due to other reasons, still, it can be useful for certain sounds nevertheless. 07:14:18 I just mean they do not seem to be as good as the specific one that I found to be much better than the others. 07:14:52 or maybe they just sound bad 07:15:00 like most physical modeling stuff 07:15:45 Yes. 07:17:16 Still, one of them is not bad, specifically "wgpluck" seems good. 07:22:17 I have gotten some special effects by using percussion sounds with waveguides to make a new sound 07:30:49 * madbr looks it up 07:31:04 doesn't look like it has inharmonicity 07:32:09 You might be correct. 07:37:09 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:40:05 How does a mark-and-sweep gc know which "objects are still known"? 07:40:08 i.e 07:40:36 root set? 07:40:45 void foo() { char* b =alloc .. char* a= alloc... bar(b); ...} void bar(b) { doStuff } 07:40:56 if my gc kicks in while b is currently in doStuff 07:41:06 how does he know that he should not delete b and a yet? 07:41:27 and how does he know he can delete them after foo 07:41:29 You mean a conservative GC? 07:41:38 usually you'd add the stack frame to the root set? 07:41:44 It'll just scan the stack/registers/etc. for pointers. 07:42:15 Yeah but since I'm compiling to C there might be other stuff on the stack too 07:42:28 I could pass stuff on an other stack structure 07:42:39 and then just scan the stack 07:42:42 that'd be the easiest thing 07:43:10 instead of compiling to bar(b); I would compile to push(someStack,b); bar(); 07:43:17 and bar pops arguments from someStack 07:43:24 but I'm not sure if there's not better way 07:44:09 what "other stuff" is there on the stack? 07:44:21 C stuff. 07:44:31 Like, return addresses? 07:44:44 somehow i doubt it's going to be a problem to have return addresses in the root set 07:44:47 Yes, but that would not be the problem. 07:44:53 since that's predictable. 07:46:55 You can do inline C stuff i.e you can write a function in my language and embed C in it 07:47:25 so? 07:47:31 That's unpredictable. 07:47:47 if somebody allocates something on the stack there 07:47:57 like 07:48:01 {{ int c; }} 07:48:30 I don't see the problem? The root set is what's not being collected, you can be greedy. 07:48:41 And like shachaf said it's gonna be conservative. 07:48:49 What root set? 07:49:08 The root set. The set of things you tell mark and sweep not to collect. 07:49:45 i.e. the "objects still known". 07:49:51 yes 07:49:56 but how do I know which objects I know. 07:50:20 Everything pointed to by the stack, and pointed to by that, etc 07:50:29 The stack is not in my control. 07:50:48 course not. 07:51:15 unless I use my own stack 07:51:29 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:52:22 I can't scan the c stack for pointers 07:52:30 how would I even know what's a pointer and what not 07:52:51 and how would I know which are mine and which are not my pointers 07:53:06 You don't. You assume everything is a pointer. it's okay to overestimate. 07:53:39 Oh. Ic. 07:54:17 but that would require that all pointers are aligned 07:54:17 If you want an exact GC you can use tags or do something funny like put all integers in some particular page, but, you're 07:54:20 doing C. 07:54:33 4byte ptr, 1byte char , 4byte ptr 07:54:43 ^- that'd mess things up big time if I do a ptr sweep 07:55:24 I thought the stack would usually be word-aligned anyway... 07:55:41 doesn't need to be 07:55:54 isn't it required by most ABIs...? 07:56:13 ... actually isn't it generally required that data types are aligned to their natural alignment? 07:56:17 like, on the stack or not 07:56:26 unaligned data is invalid C, I think 07:56:36 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:57:15 The natural alignment for all my data types is Chaotic Evil. 07:57:20 That's what I thought. But if tha'ts not the case, maybe you could store stack alloc data along with compiled functions. 07:57:31 *giggle* 07:57:36 yeah normally everything should be aligned 07:57:42 the alignment for all my data types is neutral good 07:57:44 except long double 07:57:47 which is chaotic neutral 07:57:54 since most processors slap on massive alignment penalties on you if you don't 07:57:54 Actually maybe you could do that anyway and then you'd really know what's a pointer... hm 07:58:05 -!- heroux has joined. 07:58:11 except the lastest ridiculous intel chips but that's a detail 07:58:22 most? I think most non-x86 just outright segfaults ^^; 07:58:29 sure. miss alignment decreases performance 07:58:50 mroman: normally you don't even want to allow misalignment on a cpu 07:58:58 I guess a kernal trap counts as decreased performance.... XD 07:58:58 I know. 07:59:00 complexifies the design like mad 07:59:01 But still, you can do that. 07:59:05 ARM just gets rotated values for misaligned loads, doesn't it? 07:59:11 only old arms 07:59:22 newer arms have like 8 cycle penalty 07:59:33 I think you still have to use uanligned load instructions explicitly 07:59:34 otherwise it kabooms 07:59:45 how would you do that? i thought int x; char y; int z; would put three words on the stack (assuming a int is a word) 08:00:02 Bike: Yes. 08:00:13 -!- carado has joined. 08:00:14 So... 08:00:18 but you can still mess things up by pushing manually a single byte to the stack 08:00:19 I'm not sure how different compilers align the stack 08:00:30 You can do that in C? 08:00:31 but often you need 8 or even 16 byte alignment 08:00:43 I don't think you can even do that in asm 08:00:48 there's no "push byte" instruction in x86 <.< 08:00:51 I just, why would you even /want/ to do that. 08:01:04 fiora: aren't there a zillion size prefixes? 08:01:05 Fiora: there is 08:01:05 I mean of course you could like, manually move a byte to the stack and decrement it 08:01:14 PUSH reg16 ; o16 50+r [8086] 08:01:15 PUSH reg32 ; o32 50+r [386] 08:01:18 or you could just manually overwrite sp 08:01:24 "The operand-size attribute of the instruction determines whether the stack pointer is decremented by 2 or 4: this means that segment register pushes in BITS 32 mode will push 4 bytes on the stack, of which the upper two are undefined. If you need to override that, you can use an o16 or o32 prefix. " 08:01:38 or maybe that wasn't x86 08:01:46 there's no o8 prefix, so, I don't think push even supports it. which I guess makes sense because x86 never had <16-bit pointers 08:02:04 I'm thinking maybe if you're going to be this cruel to your computer maybe the GC should just break their knees. 08:02:09 XD 08:02:12 yeah but x86 is horrible so I was half expecting a push byte instruction :D 08:02:23 possibly even a 1-byte opcode for doing it 08:02:26 there's a "push imm8", but it pushes with the current bitness (or operand prefix bitness) 08:02:39 so it's just a nice short shortcut for pushing small numbers like zeroes 08:02:43 without using an imm32 <.< 08:02:54 mhm 08:03:04 There's also no push reg32 in long mode, while you can still do a push reg16 with the o16 prefix. 08:03:11 there's no point except in function call stuff 08:03:37 which is what stack instructions are for anyways, I guess 08:03:43 (So you can push 2 bytes, or 8, but not 4.) 08:03:52 fizzie: huh, did they do that to free up opcode space? 08:04:02 that's really weird 08:04:11 The manual doesn't give reasons, just facts. :p 08:04:20 True XD 08:04:21 ~arch design~ 08:04:34 I still love some of the really silly incongruencies 08:04:52 like the fact that nop is "xchg eax, eax" in 32-bit mode 08:04:56 but in 64-bit mode, they're not the same thing 08:05:06 because xchg eax, eax isn't a nop 08:05:12 that's because you done have to do the horrible pipeline design that comes with that :D 08:05:20 Fiora: Possibly they did it so that you don't need a REX.W prefix for every PUSH, though? 08:05:40 fizzie: couldn't they make it default to 64-bit and 32-bit requires the address size prefix? 08:05:41 isn't there one of the RISCs where mov is really OR rd, rs, rs 08:05:46 I remember there were some instructions that did that? 08:06:04 or something like OR rd, rs, rzero 08:06:04 Fiora: I don't remember any examples, but I guess that's possible. 08:06:08 madbr: isn't mov a pseudo for add ,,#0 on some ARM? 08:06:17 yeah possibly 08:06:28 like, isn't using 32-bit memory operands in long mode, doesn't that require a prefix byte? 08:06:36 e.g. mov eax, [ebx] 08:06:44 0x6A 08:07:03 PUSH : byte operand, immediate 08:07:16 Yeah, that's the push imm8 08:07:22 mroman_: Pushes a sign-extended value of either 2 or 4 bytes. 08:07:28 it actually decrements esp by 2, 4, or 8 though >.> 08:07:29 Fiora explained imm8 up a ways. 08:07:45 (and: so it is one-byte, huh) 08:08:01 that one actually feels like a reasonable one byte opcode 08:08:19 at least, maybe more reasonable than pusha <.< 08:09:30 Fiora: I was sort of assuming you couldn't write that at all, but apparently you can. 08:09:57 the push imm8? 08:10:36 Fiora: No, mov eax, [ebx] in long mode. (And it does seem to result in what you said, a REX prefix with REX.W = 0.) 08:10:39 ooooh 08:10:51 fizzie: the place I actually remember that coming up was when I was reading about x32 08:11:03 x32? 08:11:05 they wanted to use 32-bit pointers in long mode, but it requires adding a prefix to every single instruction 08:11:24 so instead you have to use 64-bit pointers where the top half is zero 08:11:30 genius 08:11:40 except apparently gcc has trouble with that or something? I don't know much of it <_> 08:11:49 x32 is this new abi thing that's, like. x86_64 without the 64-bit 08:11:55 32-bit x86_64 08:12:02 Doesn't that defeat the purpose of x32? 08:12:16 shachaf: I think the pointers are still stored as 32-bit 08:12:18 Fiora: Or actually there doesn't seem to be a REX prefix at all, I mislooked. 08:12:32 but like, when you address, you do [rax] instead of [eax] and just make sure the top is zero 08:12:48 Fiora: There's an old-fashioned 67h address-size override prefix instead. 08:12:51 ooooh. 08:13:29 so like, in 32-bit, 67h would mean 16-bit addressing, like mov ax, [bx]? 08:13:36 and in 64-bit it corresponds to mov eax, [ebx]? 08:13:37 When I imagine x86 I imagine a Swiss Family Robinson style treehouse, with parts continually bursting into flame underneath as they build higher and higher on the broken remnants of what they slapped together last week. 08:13:48 that is a wonderful image XD 08:13:59 Fiora: So it seems: http://sprunge.us/CdVR 08:14:19 and I'm guessing you can't do mov ax, [bx] in 64-bit 08:14:52 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 08:15:41 Well, no. 08:17:49 There's a table on the (8) possible combinations of REX.W, 66h and 67h, and the resulting effective operand and address sizes, in 64-bit mode. 08:18:41 You can get (16,32), (16,64), (32,32), (32,64), (64,32) and (64,64), but no others. 08:19:14 (There's some redundancy, because 66h is ignored if REX.W is present.) 08:19:27 huh. 08:20:06 A 16-bit address size in long mode doesn't sound very likely to be useful. 08:22:54 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:23:00 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 08:24:58 yeah, I figure 08:25:07 then again a 32-bit one probably wasn't anticipated to be very useful either... 08:27:35 What's slightly interesting is that ndisasm -b 32 / -b 64 says that 66 67 8B 07 is mov ax, [bx] in 32-bit mode, but mov ax, [edi] in 64-bit mode. 08:28:19 Apparently an address size of 16 bits doesn't mean just the width, but also that it's the whole 16-bit deal, with different (more limited) ModRM encodings. 08:29:25 (Time for a lunch.) 08:31:30 Huh 08:32:57 I didn't even know 16-bit had more limitations on r/m... 08:32:58 * Fiora reads 08:33:59 fizzie: Hm 08:34:08 " 08:34:08 The mod field gives the length of the displacement field: 0 means no displacement, 1 means one byte, and 2 means two bytes. 08:34:11 The r/m field encodes the combination of registers to be added to the displacement to give the accessed address: 0 means BX+SI, 1 means BX+DI, 2 means BP+SI, 3 means BP+DI, 4 means SI only, 5 means DI only, 6 means BP only, and 7 means BX only. 08:34:16 However, there is a special case: 08:34:17 My 80186 reference says it's a byte push 08:34:18 If mod is 0 and r/m is 6, the effective address encoded is not [BP] as the above rules would suggest, but instead [disp16]: the displacement field is present and is two bytes long, and no registers are added to the displacement. " 08:34:23 wow. 32-bit addressing has spoiled me <.< 08:34:25 I think they retroactively changed it 08:34:31 anyway 08:35:08 I'm probably deploying an internal stack for compiled functions 08:35:31 and keep a list of all allocated things 08:35:47 then check that list against the pointers on the stack 08:36:50 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:37:00 -!- mtve has joined. 08:37:09 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:40:09 The special case means [bp] is encoded as [bp+0] and is longer than [bx]. (Of course it has the different default segment too.) 08:45:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:00:16 -!- azaq23 has joined. 09:04:56 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: bye). 09:05:30 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 09:06:00 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:06:53 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:20:18 -!- AgonyLang has joined. 09:21:09 After Hello World! every language needs a Quine, that's what I'm working on right now! 09:21:28 Working with a new language is hard, but fun 09:21:40 aight 09:21:52 who are you and what are you doing here 09:22:10 shachaf that's not how you welcome someone 09:22:16 oops 09:22:34 Hi..? I'm Roy and I chat about esoteric languages 09:22:59 `run echo who are you and what are you doing here | colorize 09:23:00 Aight! 09:23:01 ​who are you and what are you doing here 09:23:02 i'm monqy and shachaf chats about me 09:24:04 monqy: sometimes i chat to you instead 09:24:16 hm, this is true 09:24:18 I've made a new brainfuck derivative (yes, sorry, I know) 09:24:55 And am now playing around with quines, using my languages self-modifying/reflection abilities 09:25:05 monqy: So is Haskell + RankNTypes + (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) sound? 09:25:13 (Disregarding recursion/undefined/etc.) 09:25:17 My first try resulted in a Quine which prints the result backwards, close... but wrong 09:26:09 monqy: I think it might be. :-( 09:26:13 shachaf: that looks pretty yikes..... 09:27:08 `WELCOME AgonyLang 09:27:10 AGONYLANG: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 09:27:30 AgonyLang: so is it the brainfuck that has the self-modifying/reflection abilities or is this two languages 09:28:03 alt. is it a good brainfuck derivative alt. if it's good why is it a brainfuck derivative “set it free„ 09:28:55 Agony is brainfuck backwards compatible and has a few added instructions, the code lives in the same space as the memory, but in a special way, everything can be executed making it fully self-modifying 09:29:57 Other bf self-modifying languages can read the code as characters, but that is silly because it can't execute that 09:30:06 You named the language after yourself? 09:30:44 No... 09:31:14 It is named Agony because it is agonizing making bf programs which self-modify 09:35:20 monqy: What's the magic power GADTs give you over rank2types? 09:36:54 if i had to guess it'd be the part where you have gadts 09:39:11 wow good guess 09:44:19 -!- nooga has joined. 09:48:35 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:58:30 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:21:43 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:24:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:32:56 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:36:43 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 11:02:14 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:15:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:16:09 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 11:16:30 -!- nooga_ has joined. 11:17:08 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:23:13 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 11:48:51 -!- mtve has joined. 12:03:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:08:02 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:12:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:15:11 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Quit: c00kiemon5ter). 12:15:25 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 12:15:27 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Client Quit). 12:23:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 12:29:05 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:29:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 12:29:05 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:30:28 -!- AgonyLang has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:37:02 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:51:37 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 12:51:57 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 12:58:59 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:04:54 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 13:06:14 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 13:12:58 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:20:22 I'm going to go see if Worlds works in WINE 13:21:25 Not really a fan of installing obsolete Java 13:31:50 @tell Phantom_Hoover WorldsPlayer works great on WINE! 13:31:50 Consider it noted. 13:32:01 @tell Phantom_Hoover Just install Java 6 on WINE first. 13:32:01 Consider it noted. 13:32:35 Well, "great" is a bit of an exaggeration 13:32:50 And.. it crashed 13:35:45 Maybe I should upgrade WINE 13:37:40 -!- carado has joined. 13:38:28 Yeah, Wine protects you from all those crazy Windows bugs. 13:39:08 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 13:55:49 -!- boily has joined. 13:55:50 -!- metasepia has joined. 14:04:30 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:07:36 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:24:39 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 14:29:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:31:25 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:57:52 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: No route to host). 14:58:16 libreoffice 4! finally compiled, packaged, installed and running! 14:58:22 -!- TodPunk has joined. 15:09:10 freeing a list is more awkward than I thought :) 15:09:18 the list might be in itself 15:14:29 also 15:14:37 http://codepad.org/ukNYo5hq 15:14:42 ^- where is my list o_O 15:15:22 oh hm. 15:15:51 forgot to append 15:41:48 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 15:56:31 -!- Bike has joined. 16:06:33 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 16:48:42 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:34:08 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:36:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:49:34 shachaf: FTL? You don’t need a keyboard at all, although having one is more convenient. I don’t remember any of the keys i have been using being → or End. 17:49:36 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:49:41 > 29/32 17:49:43 0.90625 17:51:38 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:51:58 > 0.095550537109375 - 29/32 17:52:00 -0.810699462890625 17:52:07 ion: OK. 17:57:22 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:03:28 > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 13 18:03:30 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show GHC.Show.ShowS) 18:03:30 arising from a use of `M1... 18:03:42 :t showIntAtBase 18:03:44 (Integral a, Show a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> ShowS 18:03:47 > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 13 "" 18:03:49 "1101" 18:04:35 -!- carado has joined. 18:05:52 > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 4216 "" 18:05:54 "1000001111000" 18:06:58 > length "1000001111000" 18:07:00 13 18:10:09 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:12:26 > showIntAtBase 256 chr 79600447942433 "" 18:12:28 "Hello!" 18:16:25 http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/19ntvz/school_of_haskell_goes_public_learning_and/c8pxxd0 I think he might be right 18:17:16 > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 3 [] 18:17:18 "11" 18:17:22 > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 3 [[]] 18:17:23 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char' 18:17:24 with actual type... 18:18:40 > showDoubleAtBase 2 intToDigit 0.0643310546875 "" 18:18:41 Not in scope: `showDoubleAtBase' 18:18:54 shame:( 18:19:11 could give a nice infinite list 18:28:28 I would learn more Haskell, if it wasn't for installing libraries being really annoying 18:28:45 -!- sivoais has changed nick to AsianMall. 18:30:34 -!- AsianMall has changed nick to sivoais. 18:45:32 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:45:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:52:46 AnotherTest: cabal install something not working right? 18:53:58 Well, I never manage to install a package without problems 18:54:06 I'm guessing it's because of me using an old version 18:54:59 it's pretty stupid, because I like to try to do some works on programs, but I can never start because I don't have the required packages installed, and installing them is pretty annoying 18:56:15 I organically built up a list of essential packages I like and can't live without. when borking my cabal setup, I just rm -rf everything, then type this long cabal update && cabal install ... line. 18:56:29 at least for the useful packages, their deps will kinda work. most of the time. 18:57:36 So suppose I wanted to do that 18:58:20 How would I do it? 18:58:55 rm -rf .cabal/ .ghc/ && cabal update && cabal install whatever you like + what you're currently using. 18:58:55 What would I remove? Where are my haskell packages being stored anyway? 18:59:10 ^-- everything's stored into those two folders. 18:59:12 but! 18:59:16 So, that would work? That would surprise me 18:59:19 it works. 18:59:27 trust me, I'm an engineer. 18:59:43 heh 18:59:57 anyway, currently the problem looks like: dependencies 19:00:13 which can be cured by a good ol' rm -rf. 19:00:28 hmm 19:00:31 drastic, nasty, sudden, powerful, and leaves a nice minty perfume. 19:00:58 I could try this I guess 19:01:13 not much to lose 19:01:18 it's not working right now 19:01:33 so you see, what I like to always have at hand is: cabal-dev, hlint, attoparsec, aeson, and probably hmatrix and pandoc too. 19:01:41 what about lens 19:01:56 that too, but I haven't grokked them yet, so no default lens install on my machine. 19:02:04 (except for pure metasepia abuse, tho) 19:02:49 oh! note that cabal-dev won't work with modern cabal installations. mine comes from a hand tweak direct from the git repo. 19:03:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:03:10 so probably not cabal dev? 19:03:50 probably not. 19:03:58 I think a fixed version got released 19:04:09 what's the difference between parsec and attoparsec? 19:04:17 atto = attomic? 19:04:25 hm probably not 19:04:36 it's kinda not the same, quite. 19:04:42 (ato would be more likely in that case) 19:04:47 So haskell has like 19:04:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:04:55 2 packages that do the exact same thing? 19:05:01 Yes 19:05:04 No 19:05:06 Maybe 19:05:08 aaargh 19:05:10 attoparsec has automagic backtracking. 19:05:22 I'm lazy, and can't be arsed to wrap my parsers with 'try'. 19:05:24 so why don't they add that to parsec? 19:05:36 dunno. not my problem, really :p 19:06:14 -!- monqy has joined. 19:06:39 alright, it shall be done 19:09:54 boily 19:09:56 didn't work 19:10:30 It failed to configure "mtl-2.1.2" 19:10:34 ah? 19:10:36 let me check. 19:10:46 (I tried to install mtl, as I seem to need it) 19:11:20 you need mtl for what? 19:11:32 anyway, this has something to do with the failure package. I've asked help for this before in #haskell, and it worked, but then I kept getting problems with other stuff 19:11:44 for compiling mroman's burlesque 19:12:15 I think debian has an mtl package though, could use that I guess 19:12:29 AnotherTest: http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/sicp.xhtml 19:13:50 thanks, that doesn't make things work though 19:14:24 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 19:14:26 "web-encodings" is going to fail installing too btw, as well as "statistics" I think 19:14:49 I think if you read the whole page I linked you would be helped in terms of making things work. 19:14:56 e.g., you would probably not try to use Debian's mtl package. 19:15:15 well, debian's mtl package actually works 19:15:20 and I can install it easily 19:15:29 fsvo works 19:15:55 I think you should probably read the page I linked before saying it doesn't help you 19:15:58 since you clearly haven't... 19:16:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:17:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:17:25 elliott: I've glanced over it 19:17:32 The information is definitely useful, and I will read it 19:17:44 although I'm sure it won't solve this problem in specific 19:18:05 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:18:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 19:18:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:20:48 AnotherTest: I'm running cabal install hlint aeson attoparsec primes hmatrix lens comonad pandoc hakyll gamma diagrams gloss mueval logict 19:20:59 mtl is probably a dependency of something in that. 19:22:26 what's your cabal version? 19:22:54 Because I'm using .8, and it tells me to update 19:22:57 although I can't update 19:23:15 because I should use cabal for that, but cabal doesn't wokr 19:24:38 cabal-install version 1.16.0.2 \ using version 1.16.0 of the Cabal library 19:26:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:26:49 well, so that's probably the problem 19:27:46 also, elliott, I read the webpage, and it didn't fix my problem 19:28:51 at this point I don't care 19:29:26 You never care, I know. Although that really doesn't matter to me either. You wanted me to read it, I read it. Didn't help me. 19:29:57 Alright so I shouldn't use the debian packages 19:30:15 I'm currently not doing that, so it shouldn't be the problem 19:31:16 boily: I'm trying to update once again. I hope it works this time. 19:31:42 if you read the page then it will almost certainly give enough information to understand your dependency problem and will hence help you solve that problem in a way other than blind guesswork. if your problem isn't solved then I suspect it is simply because you are not paying very much attention to the page, given that you didn't even read it before dismissing it at first 19:32:49 Well, I do not see anything in the text that points to my particular setup as the cause of this problem 19:33:28 I've cleaned all my formerly installed packages, so it's like I'm starting from the beginning again 19:35:18 I honestly believe that if I can update to a newer version of cabal, that this will work 19:36:00 btw, is it normal that cabal install cabal-install also installs a bunch of packages (eg it just successfully installed mtl) 19:36:12 Or is that because it depends on those itself? 19:36:50 updating Cabal can often a bad idea. updating cabal-install is something else entirely that may not be a bad idea 19:37:22 elliott: sorry, I meant cabal-install 19:37:27 in particular, if you do "cabal install cabal-install", then you already have cabal-install installed, possibly from your distro's package manager 19:37:31 and upgrading it locally may be a bad idea 19:37:49 Well, cabal told me to update cabal-install 19:37:51 (using cabal-install from package manager is fine: it is just a program, incidentally written in Haskell, not something you'll actually link to. i.e. you can imagine it being written in Python instead) 19:38:40 Ok I managed to update cabal-install it seems 19:40:02 you can grab a look at what you have installed in .cabal/bin and .cabal/lib. 19:41:08 looks like I only have cabal in bin 19:41:25 and in lib I have mtl, cabal, parsec, http, network and transformers 19:41:31 good start! 19:41:32 which seemed to be all the problematic packages 19:42:18 if I run cabal update, it tells me again that "there is a new version of cabal-install available" 19:42:42 Although it told me that cabal-install had been successfully installed before 19:43:47 background noise. 19:44:39 noise is usually ignored, so let's do just that 19:48:47 oh 19:48:57 failure required transformers == 2 19:49:04 but I have 3 19:49:20 Isn't transformers backwards compatible? 19:49:29 usually. 19:49:56 I just had to tweak web-encodings. its constrains on bytestring, failure and directory were too restrictive. 19:50:10 (besides, I have transformers 0.3.0.0 now) 19:50:11 yeah, someone told me to do that earlier too 19:51:23 cabal unpack web-encodings right, 19:52:35 it runs. 19:52:48 I now have burlesque on my machine. 19:53:44 um, to install the unpacked package, do I run cabal install in that directory? 19:53:53 oh right, that works 19:54:07 cabal configure && cabal build && cabal install. 19:54:28 ok 19:54:35 no need for the first two 19:54:48 it's more feng shui that way. 19:55:41 why does this all feel worse than having to compile gcc manually? 19:56:46 (for the firs time, of course) 20:01:16 pandoc isn't installing 20:01:26 (circular dependency) 20:01:45 I don't really need it currently though 20:04:40 -!- augur has joined. 20:17:34 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:17:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:18:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:19:27 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:25:24 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 20:34:58 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:39:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:52:57 -!- AgonyLang has joined. 20:53:21 Hi again 20:54:49 kmc, http://bradconte.com/files/misc/HackerNewsParodyThread/ 20:59:42 Yay, I've finished my Quine! 21:00:22 Cool 21:01:08 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:01:21 After Hello World! and a Quine.... what is the next thing every language needs to have? :) 21:01:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:02:17 If you manage 99 bottles of beer too, you will... have still proved nothing interesting about your language 21:02:27 See HQ9+ 21:02:48 Yeah, I know, not trying to prove anything 21:03:21 After 99 bottles of beer, see if you can increment the accumulator 21:06:21 -!- quintopia has joined. 21:13:20 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:13:42 AgonyLang: brainfuck interpreter! 21:14:15 `addquote When I imagine x86 I imagine a Swiss Family Robinson style treehouse, with parts continually bursting into flame underneath as they build higher and higher on the broken remnants of what they slapped together last week. 21:14:21 979) When I imagine x86 I imagine a Swiss Family Robinson style treehouse, with parts continually bursting into flame underneath as they build higher and higher on the broken remnants of what they slapped together last week. 21:14:21 prime number sieve!~ 21:15:21 if you're ambitious, a self interpreter 21:16:06 just do fractran, it's like prime number sieve except TC 21:16:14 I made a language that makes it easy to write a compiler for that language 21:16:19 tromp_ It might not be that hard, the language is self modifying, to it only needs to parse the input into runtime 21:16:22 Erm, within the language 21:16:53 tromp_ Nice idea, I'll try a self-interpreter 21:17:00 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:18:14 Hi..? I'm Roy and I chat about esoteric languages <-- so do we have a 12 step program yet? 21:19:59 -!- quintopia has joined. 21:20:02 monqy: So is Haskell + RankNTypes + (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) sound? 21:20:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:20:31 hm _is_ there any p such that you cannot make a function of type p Char -> p Bool ? 21:20:40 My life has never been manageable, so for starters I'll admit my life is unmanageble 21:20:53 (in report haskell + rankntypes, presumably) 21:21:04 (as it's probably easy with type families and stuff) 21:21:18 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:21:19 AgonyLang: you should meet a certain itidus20 21:21:41 oerjan: (Is Char) 21:21:44 oerjan: p = IORef 21:21:49 That's a bit circular, though. :-) 21:21:54 IORef isn't in the report. 21:21:59 um are you sure 21:22:11 well it has stableptr and stuff 21:22:13 close enough 21:22:15 i don't think it is, although the FFI is 21:22:21 it holds for all ADTs, anyway 21:22:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:22:30 Look, the FFI and IORef don't really count. 21:22:31 I don't get the Char -> Bool thing? 21:22:52 oerjan: For any type made up of just sums/product/exponents you can make it. 21:23:02 shachaf: Is Char is obviously something you need type equality for, i.e. type families or gadts afaiu 21:23:34 right. i think that's essentially a variation of parametricity? 21:23:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331]). 21:24:05 oerjan: you can express Is with rank-2 21:24:09 leibniz-style 21:24:14 type Is a b = forall p. p a -> p b 21:24:20 oerjan: I mean Leibniz Is. 21:24:21 (hence (forall p. p Char -> p Bool) is Is Char Bool) 21:24:35 is Char Bool? 21:24:38 aha 21:25:07 Help, accessing C++ code in Haskell is scary 21:25:11 anyway, type families do get you Is Char Bool -> Void 21:25:18 so basically it's a question of whether rankntypes are consistent with Char being Bool 21:25:19 GADTs sort of do, but only because of a quirk of GHC's implementation 21:25:37 as in, the term you write that exhibits Void there has an omitted pattern match that GHC agrees with you is impossible 21:25:39 elliott: I think it's not really a quirk. 21:25:57 At least, it's very much on purpose and along the lines of the intended use of GADTs. 21:26:27 afaiu people complain whenever ghc _doesn't_ realize a gadt pattern is unreachable 21:26:44 Yes, but elliott doesn't like to go with the flow. 21:27:02 that is true. 21:27:31 shachaf: I don't see why GADTs = type equality + existential quantification + an extra axiom. 21:27:40 But sure, I'll agree it's convenient. 21:27:52 It stops you adding, e.g. univalence. So it's definitely not harmless. 21:27:59 elliott: What is the axiom? 21:28:07 oerjan: It's not unreachable if you have extra equalities, like Char = Bool 21:28:13 shachaf: ConcreteTypeA =/= ConcreteTypeB 21:28:29 hm... 21:28:32 How would you phrase that axiom? 21:28:34 (Note that if you make the term polymorphic in the types A and B (i.e. they're no longer concrete), the warning reappears.) 21:28:42 shachaf: I'm not sure it's a well-founded axiom. 21:28:46 Which is also a strike against it. 21:29:32 um without it type class lookup isn't sound either :P 21:29:53 type equality is the thing that breaks with generalized newtype deriving, right? 21:29:55 everything becomes overlapping 21:29:59 Sgeo: afaik 21:30:04 *-u 21:31:03 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 21:31:11 Yes, the context is generalised newtype deriving. 21:31:22 But I think it's a misleading context. 21:31:34 oerjan: Right, typeclasses are the thing being ignored. 21:31:36 Hi, Arc_Koen 21:31:41 But all you lose is nice properties about typeclasses, I think. 21:31:46 i.e. instance selection becomes ambiguous. 21:32:08 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 21:32:37 hello Taneb 21:32:38 Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 21:32:42 @messages 21:32:43 Taneb said 9h 23m 29s ago: Just because I created it doesn't mean I do. 21:32:55 (context is Fueue and knowing much about it) 21:33:01 well then that makes the two of us 21:33:10 yes, I know context 21:33:30 though elliott is trying to mislead me 21:33:52 `? d-modules 21:33:55 D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them. 21:33:59 The same applies to that 21:34:05 `? context 21:34:06 context? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 21:34:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:34:36 `learn context is a word with many meanings, depending on where it is used. 21:34:40 I knew that. 21:34:42 You should've thought of that *before* inventing D-modules, Taneb. 21:34:51 Also what happened to being bold and daring? 21:35:02 we are bold 21:35:03 shachaf, it got boring after a while 21:35:11 and we dare recognize our ignorance 21:35:24 dald and boring? 21:35:28 don't you have that saying in english? "have the courage to flee" 21:35:29 dald isn't even a word 21:35:30 @wn dald 21:35:31 No match for "dald". 21:35:35 irc.dald.net 21:35:39 ~duck dald 21:35:40 D'ald was a Klingon general in the early 25th century. 21:35:49 Oh. 21:35:54 25th century seems very late to me 21:36:14 It's like 150 years after Duck Dodgers 21:46:47 -!- augur has joined. 21:48:16 -!- carado has joined. 21:48:29 Arc_Koen: Taneb: i thought i'd written up solutions to most of what makes Fueue harder than Underload in the "Fueue tips" and "Truth-machine" sections. of course, there aren't that many others able to program underload either... 21:52:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight). 21:53:08 i should stop making people flee, i guess 21:54:01 in which way have you become a people fleeer? 21:54:45 well Taneb obviously fled my attempt to encourage him to try programming Fueue. 21:55:42 I wonder why 21:56:02 sheer horror, i assume 21:56:15 of the monster he created 21:56:39 nothing that a little bit of soy sauce, garlic and ginger can't help. 21:56:47 with a name like Nathan van Doom, how can you do otherwise. 21:56:51 you've made me hungry again 21:57:17 Nathan van Doom... is that a mix between Sinistro and Dr Doom? 21:57:34 i don't know sinistro and barely dr doom 21:59:57 @hoogle Int -> Double -> (Int -> Char) -> String -> String 21:59:58 No results found 22:09:53 @tell AnotherTest if I run cabal update, it tells me again that "there is a new version of cabal-install available" <-- i have got the same on windows. i suspect it's just an effect of cabal doing no actual registration of non-library packages (i.e. it cannot actually _know_ you haven't already installed the latest version. although giving the message anyhow does sound remarkably stupid so maybe it has a way to try to check, which fail 22:09:53 Consider it noted. 22:10:28 @tell AnotherTest which fails...) 22:10:29 Consider it noted. 22:10:53 my suspicion: his version is old. 22:10:54 * oerjan is counting on elliott to tell him if he's horribly wrong. 22:10:57 he is running an old version. 22:11:07 he has maybe installed a new cabal-install with his cabal-install. if he did, he is not running it 22:11:14 (e.g. it is further down or completely absent from the $PATH) 22:11:29 it does have a way to check, yes 22:11:37 it is a separate message 22:11:40 well, i just mentioned istr having the same issue of being told there's a new version just after installing it 22:11:43 I mean, cabal-install knows its own version, so checking if there's a newer one on Hackage is not hard :P 22:11:52 it's not part of a general "these packages are outdated" thing afaik 22:12:01 ...i guess. 22:12:20 @tell AnotherTest As Expected, elliott disagrees with me. :) 22:12:20 Consider it noted. 22:23:57 -!- carado_ has joined. 22:25:00 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:26:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:27:38 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:48:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:53:04 -!- augur has joined. 22:55:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:55:57 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:59:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:00:50 Why did I think dots were optional in the user portion of gmail addresses? 23:01:12 They are. 23:01:12 Hrm. 23:01:45 Oh, I see what's going on 23:02:06 It is getting in but just not being directed to my primary account 23:02:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:05:20 Hi Phantom_Hoover. WorldsPlayer somewhat works on WINE 23:12:47 -!- c00kiemon5ter has left. 23:15:48 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:21:06 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:32:06 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:33:41 Maybe if I go to Penn Station every day I'll eat more. 23:37:45 -!- augur has joined. 23:40:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:21 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:42:51 -!- augur has joined. 23:43:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:45:32 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 23:45:35 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:49:36 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 2013-03-06: 00:04:28 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 00:10:21 I wish haskell would allow you to write something like 3 < length xs and have it terminate as soon as the answer is known. 00:10:52 it does 00:11:07 > 3 < length [1..] 00:11:08 s/length/genericLength/ and define the type of lazy conatural numbers 00:11:11 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 00:11:14 however you should not be using length at all generally 00:11:46 Would lazy conatural numbers be as efficient? 00:12:22 @let voided n = replicate n () 00:12:24 Defined. 00:12:28 > voided 3 < void [1..] 00:12:30 True 00:13:02 length with lazy nats isn't necessarily bad. 00:13:18 Ah, ord instance for lists 00:13:29 genericTake (genericLength xs) ys is clearer than zipWith const xs ys, is it not? 00:13:40 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:13:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:14:20 shachaf: Maybe if you used an alternate prelude 00:23:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:25:43 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:27:58 -!- mtve has joined. 00:39:20 -!- WeThePeople has joined. 00:42:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:44:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:50:27 -!- augur has joined. 00:56:44 does haskell let you do eager evaluation ever 00:57:03 sure 00:57:05 depending on what that means 00:57:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:09:07 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:09:57 -!- wareya has joined. 01:13:09 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 01:19:16 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:42:20 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:01:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:10:10 If anyone didn't know this, I nostalgia quite easily. 02:10:19 Listening to Enya is a pretty good way to trigger that. 02:14:59 (Yes, there might be people who are unaware of my proclivities of falling into nostaliga. Bike, kmc and shachaf are fairly new here) 02:15:23 thank god they're filled in now 02:15:32 You don't need to tell Bike that kmc and I are fairly new here. 02:15:39 I'm sure everyone knows that. 02:15:44 `pastelogs shachaf 02:15:52 elliott: no dont do it....... 02:16:00 im doing it 02:16:13 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22268 02:16:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:16:46 Cale was in #esoteric? 02:17:08 He was? 02:17:15 I like how shachaf has technically been here longer than PH 02:17:24 `pastelogs Sgeo 02:17:31 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28554 02:17:39 2011-01-04.txt:17:01:10: elliott: Dwarf Fortress? Minecraft? What about your liberty? 02:17:42 2011-01-04.txt:17:02:39: elliott: Dwarf Fortress doesn't provide the source code. Minecraft doesn't even provide the binary without payment. 02:17:52 shachaf: i can't tell if this was a joke or not 02:18:03 If I said "What about your liberty" it was probably a joke. 02:18:14 -!- augur has joined. 02:18:41 `pastelogs nostalgia 02:18:48 2011-05-26.txt:07:35:35: oerjan: What ar eyou doing in this channel instead of #haskell? :-) 02:18:57 elliott: It's OK, we get it. 02:19:03 You can stop quoting oldshachaf. 02:19:04 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32092 02:19:07 don't worry. I can only read at most 300 of these lines. 02:19:09 or was it 350 02:19:19 (Actually oldshachaf is/was younger than I am?) 02:19:26 (Maybe it should be youngshachaf.) 02:19:54 2011-08-13.txt:02:18:16: shachaf: Shut up my number keys are broken. 02:19:56 I remember this. 02:20:21 Don't read logs, elliott. 02:20:24 It's not polite. 02:20:28 2009-10-30.txt:22:19:12: I have search-software-related nostalgia now 02:20:49 shachaf: my offer to delete logs for money stands!!! 02:20:50 `pastelogs ehird 02:20:58 elliott: You can't delete #esoteric logs for money. 02:20:58 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9922 02:21:05 Well, not usefully. 02:21:10 are you really going to waste your time reading 300 dumb things i said in the past as revenge 02:21:16 Nah. 02:21:58 -!- monqy has joined. 02:22:56 Am... I having nostalgia for my past bouts of nostalgia??? 02:23:05 You would be the only one. 02:27:50 i think i used to have bouts of nostalgia 02:28:08 Hey, I didn't choose my college for nostalgic purposes! ... I didn't really choose my college at all 02:28:37 And yes, there totally was a college that I had nostalgic feelings for before I entered college 02:28:42 sgeo thats the saddest thing youve ever said 02:31:11 you'r ehaving nostalgia for having nostalgia fora school you never actually enrolled in? 02:33:16 No recursive nostalgia. 02:33:43 And the college in question had a summer day camp that I went to for 3 years 02:35:56 -!- mad has joined. 02:45:25 `welcome mad 02:45:27 mad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:47:13 sup 02:47:55 trying to see if I can pipeline my staggered-SIMD risc cpu design :D (and produce something ressembling verilog) 02:49:01 I need some non-insane ways of dealing with memory aliasing faults and split branch faults 02:53:05 like, horrible CPUs like the P2 can do it because nothing you do is real, everything you do is speculative branch predicted register renamed reordered 02:53:16 horrible/awesome :D 02:53:49 like, if you have a loop 02:53:56 cpu core 1 is on iteration 1 02:53:59 cpu core 2 is on iteration 2 02:54:02 cpu core 3 is on iteration 3 02:54:06 cpu core 4 is on iteration 4 02:54:07 etc.. 02:54:27 cpu core 1 takes a branch 02:54:30 o, u r just madbr 02:54:41 but, say, cpu core 4 doesn't take the branch 02:54:56 hindu cpu 02:55:34 since there's only 1 scheduler (on core 1), core 4 must stop processing 02:55:49 how do you present that to the programmer 02:55:55 in a way that makes any sense at all 02:57:36 like, his loop bails midway 02:57:51 it's either some jump that makes no sense and happens randomly 02:58:28 or core 4 goes into dormant state and then you never know how many cores will be still active, so you don't know what register file to feedback values from 03:03:27 dealing with memory aliasing isn't beeter 03:04:10 it's like, you have to lock your write destination addresses before you read anything in the loop (well, anything that could alias) 03:05:10 then if a read lands on one of these you know there's an alias and you can bail... but then once again you have a random jump out of the blue that you have to recover from 03:05:28 Sgeo: Is today the ninth day of the olist sequence? 03:05:43 shachaf, I believe so. 03:05:53 Assuming that there is an update today, haven't seen one yet 03:06:08 So if there's no update then there'll be a nine-day sequence some other time? 03:06:15 Yes. 03:06:32 871-878 is the current days-in-a-row sequence 03:07:27 Sgeo: What's the problem with vampires anyway? Why don't people like them? 03:07:40 they're for girls 03:07:53 I assume they're Evil. 03:08:00 Oh. Why? 03:08:03 Although people like Belkar just fine. 03:08:07 I don't play D&D, sorry. 03:09:34 They always rubbed me wrong 03:10:10 http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/386.gif 03:12:06 monqy: is supermegacomics where you got your style 03:12:12 or did supermegacomics get it from you 03:12:21 i dont think either of those are true 03:12:56 monqy: by the law of excluded middle one of them has to be true 03:13:18 i dont think thats how that works shachaf..................................... 03:14:11 oh, those constructivists 03:18:44 is the opcode dest, src ordering of operands in x86 and ARM assembly some kind of ergativity 03:20:12 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=302 03:20:42 ergativity...? 03:22:18 it's a linguistics term 03:23:14 well, i doubt assembler designers know linguistics above a superficial level 03:23:27 it refers to languages where the subjects of intransitive verbs have the same case as objects of transitive verbs 03:23:38 so they're essentially always in passive voice 03:23:43 yeah i thought you meant ergodic theory for some stupid reason 03:25:03 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=317 03:26:18 I guess that would mean asm would have, like, a VSO order? 03:26:40 yeah 03:26:49 C would probably be SVO 03:26:54 linguistics makes me sad 03:27:00 or is that linguistics make me sad? 03:27:01 well I guess ARM would be VSOO 03:27:02 forth would be SOV of course 03:27:08 linguistics is cool, but programming languages are nothing like natural languages usually. 03:27:13 x86 would be weird some some instructions use their destination as input, while some don't 03:27:24 SVO would be some OO language thing. 03:27:32 whereas that isn't true in ARM... well except for weird things like vtrn 03:28:19 doesn't arm has same order for opcodes as intel? 03:28:46 aside from having 3 argument opcodes 03:29:10 instead of having only 2 argument opcodes that are really 3 arguments due to the aggressive register renaming 03:29:59 yeah, but like, it has op dst, src1, src2 03:30:04 x86 has op dst, src 03:30:15 so lots of x86 instructions use both dst and src as input 03:30:24 but on arm dst is almost never an input I think? 03:31:31 arm as op dst, src 03:31:48 but it's just a shortcut for op dst, src1=dst, src2 03:31:51 yeah 03:32:04 and it assembles to the 3 operand operation 03:35:37 I think stores are reversed tho 03:36:30 (on ARM, not on x86 since they can't because for some reason there are read-modify versions of the opcodes) 03:37:30 x86 has op dst, src or else op %src, %dst ;P 03:37:58 Intel syntax is weird. 03:38:02 hmmmmm 03:38:16 gcc assembly syntax doesn't count 03:38:20 it's impossible to read 03:38:23 is intel syntax CFGable? could you use a regular expression 03:38:36 it is pretty bad 03:38:39 could it be the link anti-chomkyists are looking for 03:38:56 x86 does have a few three-operand instructions by now as well 03:39:04 well, all of AVX XD 03:39:10 also some where one is implicitly fixed (like edx:eax for mul/div) 03:39:12 plus BMI1/2 03:39:15 after 30 years of resistance from intel yes 03:39:18 Also a 3-operand addition instruction! 03:39:20 and imul reg,reg,imm if an immediate counts 03:39:31 shachaf: you mean LEA? ;) 03:39:33 and FMA4, vpperm are 4-op because AMD 03:39:35 kmc: Yep. 03:39:43 not just addition! reg + {1,2,4}*reg + imm 03:39:53 good instruction, that 03:39:58 there's some implicit 3-op ones like pblendvb that use hardcoded xmm0 <.< 03:40:22 If I remember correctly "x86 has a 3-operand addition instruction" was a factor in the design of Salsa20. 03:40:35 i still can't understand how the fuck you can remember "pblendvb" 03:40:46 packed, blend, variable, bytes 03:41:02 it's impossible 03:41:05 XD 03:41:06 «I chose “xor a rotated sum” over “add a rotated xor” for simple performance reasons: the x86 architecture has a three-operand addition (LEA) but not a three-operand xor.» 03:41:26 I wonder how much of a difference that actually makes. 03:41:28 lemme see the most registers I can use in one instruction... 03:41:52 vpperm xmm0, xmm1, xmm2, [rax+rbx*8+0xDEADBEEF] 03:41:57 5 regs, I think, I don't think one can beat that XD 03:42:17 heh 03:42:37 you can have both a displacement immediate and a displacement register? 03:42:51 Yep. 03:43:12 I thought it was either/or 03:43:24 Fiora: pusha 03:43:26 * shachaf wins 03:43:44 shachaf: ... that is TECHNICALLY TRUE 03:43:45 you win 03:43:46 that's 5 GP regs but also %ds! 03:43:51 and %cs arguably 03:43:54 and Others 03:44:09 in that case it still loses to ARM :D 03:44:09 arguably 03:44:12 ????? 03:44:14 %cr3 arguably 03:44:18 due to LDRM and stuff like VLDM 03:44:21 now i'm just being silly 03:44:26 though. vzeroupper affects -16- registers. 03:44:29 nyahahahaha 03:44:29 !!?!????!??!?????? 03:44:49 Hmm. 03:44:57 maybe i should pretend to learn lojban again, it had syntax vaguely analogous to that of programming languages 03:45:14 Don't do that! 03:45:19 tswett: Tell Bike not to do it. 03:45:50 oh. xsave wins even more XD 03:45:56 xsave/xrstor 03:46:41 As long as he's only pretending, it's okay. 03:46:55 considering there aren't speakers i doubt i could learn even if i tried 03:46:58 it saves x87 FPU state, MMX state, SSE state, MXCSR... 03:47:46 That's just a cheap plastic imitation of pusha! 03:47:58 I think there's at least one fluent speaker. 03:48:14 No native speakers, unless you count Robin Lee Powell's twin daughters. 03:48:17 that's sad 03:48:26 Frances and Kelly. I don't know whether or not their last name is Powell. 03:49:06 They have three parents, one of whom (RLP) has been speaking to them exclusively in Lojban. I think they're now between 1 and 2 years old. 03:49:30 fun family 03:49:33 that's kind of a cruel experiment :/ 03:49:49 Fiora: *shrug* They still have the usual number of English-speaking parents. 03:49:54 oh, just one. 03:49:55 sorry, misread 03:49:55 I kinda remember hearing about one like that but for... I think it was klingon 03:50:09 I was thinking they were -only- speaking lojban <.< 03:50:20 it's amazing how fast linguistics experiments run into language experiments. if you'd told me the study of language got a lot of its weirder data from mentally ill children i wouldn't have believed you 03:50:27 IIRC, they realized that Klingon just isn't usable as a day-to-day language. 03:50:44 oh? 03:50:49 having one parent talk in a language probably won't let you learn it too well, anyhow 03:50:57 tswett: missing vocabulary? 03:50:58 klingon's probably missing a lot of vocabulary? 03:50:59 Apparently not. 03:51:01 mad: yup. 03:51:11 it's like i'm reverse psychic 03:51:14 ☝ ☝ ☝ PUN ALERT 03:51:37 And I've heard that yeah, a kid just won't really learn a language if the only person they know who speaks it is one parent. 03:52:04 see also, second generation immigrant children 03:53:52 kinda wonder if klingon is "compact" or not, too 03:53:58 compact? 03:54:07 If every open cover of it has a finite subcover. 03:54:16 thx 03:54:23 yw 03:54:36 bike: as in has low-ish number of syllables for the more common things you might want to say 03:55:05 Oh. Like a natural language. 03:55:30 yeah 03:55:45 so, like, good huffman coding I guess? 03:55:57 mhm 03:56:47 huff man 03:56:50 hm, i don't think i've actually read anything rigorous about information theory and linguistics. minimum description length something something bayes 03:57:38 intel\ combined\ manual.pdf is so awkward to use. :-( 03:58:57 that must be gigantic 03:59:58 Is there a big fancy hypertext? 04:03:03 Is there a nice and simple assembly language that is nevertheless very much usable? 04:03:11 MIPS, perhaps, or something simpler. 04:03:26 Whose specification is freely available online, and short. 04:03:29 yeah, RISC instruction sets 04:03:31 ARM 04:03:31 MIPS is the usual for pedagogy 04:03:34 Like 50 pages or something. 04:03:42 Sgeo: What's the problem with vampires anyway? Why don't people like them? <-- well _i_ like malack... 04:04:53 vampires are probably going to be out of style before too long 04:04:55 overdone 04:05:25 MIPS is relatively simple but still has some idiosynchracies I guess 04:05:44 everything has idiosyncracies 04:06:01 like delay slots and the mul/div thing and hazards and whatevers 04:06:07 that's what the ARM guy was saying anyways 04:06:13 all architectures have warts 04:06:36 also all architectures have hazards :D 04:06:48 ARM seems relatively low on warts, but the instruction set is pretty gargantuan 04:06:51 well, you could use MIX or something. 04:06:53 hope you like bcd 04:07:07 bcd is a wart all by itself :D 04:08:04 xactly 04:08:27 delay slots make sense in the "486" generation 04:08:39 ie before you have branch prediction 04:09:09 yeah, they make -sense-, they're just. I guess, one extra messy thing to worry about when learning 04:10:01 would learning a machine without understanding branch prediction be worth it? (I did not learn branch prediction) 04:10:07 Is there a better way to look things up than intel\ combined\ manual.pdf? 04:10:31 bike : you could start with an old arm that doesn't have branch prediction :3 04:11:21 http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/manual/64-ia-32-architectures-software-developer-instruction-set-reference-manual-325383.pdf this thing has it listed by instruction ? 04:11:38 personally I kinda feel http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/nasm/nasmdocb.html is more succinct and easy to read even though it's not quite complete 04:11:44 what about geek32 04:11:52 That's just section something-something of the combined manual. 04:11:55 It's still a huge PDF. 04:12:14 ahaha hate PDF instruction manuals 04:12:14 Hmm. 04:12:24 why do they make PDF instruction manuals anyways 04:12:29 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 04:12:32 is it wrong if I like them :< 04:12:57 yes 04:13:22 how do you search them 04:13:29 it's... alphabetical 04:13:31 also most pdf readers are laggy 04:13:35 and it has a table of contents on the left 04:13:51 I use the built in firefox one... <.< 04:13:51 still worse than just a framed webpage 04:14:37 * mad opens the table of contents on the ia32 manual 04:14:43 gread it's not wide enough 04:14:51 :33 < it's purrty bad, Firoara 04:14:52 half of the text is cutoff and I can't widen it 04:14:55 I don't know why firefox doesn't let me resize it 04:14:57 it's really annoying 04:15:00 foxit was better 04:15:05 Hmm, :< isn't even part of that. 04:15:16 * shachaf maintains that there are only two smiley faces in the world. 04:15:40 <: 04:16:20 :33 < pdfs arent purrfect but, waterever, they fit whale into my roetine, even if crappie 04:17:20 roetine...? 04:17:42 whale? 04:17:59 am I not allowed to be fefeta :< 04:18:13 no i mean what is "roetine" a pun on, I get "routine" but 04:18:14 I don't know. 04:18:20 roe 04:18:21 What's a fefeta? 04:18:27 Kind of pasta. 04:18:40 what you get when you combine feferi (fish puns) with nepeta (cat puns) 04:19:07 roe no! 04:19:14 What do you get when you combine them with Scooby Doo puns? 04:19:27 oh god 04:19:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:20:11 ummm more seriously http://ref.x86asm.net/coder64-abc.html is a table reference 04:20:28 -!- augur has joined. 04:20:55 right... I like how you have to sort opcodes as "useful" or "useless" 04:21:34 ? 04:22:12 ie the ones that are vaguely risc-like and you can do lots of 04:22:32 I think there's only a few old instructions like that 04:22:34 vs the ones that are cisc and have all sorts of penalties and don't pair on the pentium 04:22:38 er, the ones that you should avoid 04:22:50 all 16bit and 8bit opcodes should be avoided afaik 04:22:57 except movsx and movzx 04:23:02 using 8-bit and 16-bit stuff is okay, I think? I do it all the time... 04:23:12 there's some exceptions (like, you need to avoid flag merging penalties) 04:23:17 afaik the register renaming hates it 04:23:17 but, like, setCC is 8-bit only and you kinda need that 04:23:25 yeah, it's bad if you trigger hte merging penalties 04:23:41 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 04:23:52 also they are mostly useless anyways 04:24:12 but setCC is 8-bit only :< 04:24:29 setCC? 04:24:39 is that something they added on the p2? 04:24:40 setc, sete, and so on? 04:24:49 it's since 386 04:24:55 -!- c00kiemon5ter has left. 04:25:05 set current continuation? 04:25:08 int a = b == c; gets compiled as 04:25:11 And I thought getCC was bad! 04:25:13 cmp b, c 04:25:18 sete a 04:25:23 first time I see that 04:25:26 movzx reg, a 04:26:52 set current continuation would just be invoking the continuation. oh nooooo 04:29:12 By the way, continuations aren't functions. 04:29:32 http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/undelimited.html 04:29:37 Not that you said they are. 04:29:55 i suppose scheme's pretending they are is related to them being "procedures" instead 04:30:22 okies I kinda tried to make a list of the things not to use 04:30:44 it's probably not perfect but: AAA/AAS/AAM/AAD/DAA/DAS (bcd instructions), BOUND, ENTER, J(E)CXZ, LOOP*, MOVS*, RC*, SCAS*, XLATB 04:30:59 xlatb sounds exciting. 04:31:05 I bet it calculated latitude in binary. 04:31:32 lookup table <.< 04:32:07 "XLATB adds the value in AL, treated as an unsigned byte, to BX or EBX, and loads the byte from the resulting address (in the segment specified by DS) back into AL. " 04:32:13 I think it only existed because the 8086 had like, no addressing modes 04:33:02 I think I'm going to write a fanfiction where Bletchley Park never happened, and computers end up being developed only by the Kriegsmarine. 04:33:12 * shachaf so tired :-( 04:35:07 Bike: is that a fanfiction for... life 04:35:15 historical fiction? 04:35:21 ... alternate history fic? 04:36:00 Well, the seventh book introduces Nepeta Leijon. 04:36:46 fiora : what about everything that involves segment registers? :D 04:37:10 I don't think you can even use those in 32-bit protected mode? XD 04:37:57 actually you can 04:38:19 maybe not in paged mode tho 04:38:22 can you even set them outside of ring0? 04:38:49 it probably adds on a penalty if you set a segment that doesn't start at 0 too 04:39:25 I think I remember reading it adds 1 clock cycle latency to loads on recent intel 04:39:41 it's not actually that bad, I think fs/gs stuff gets used for things like native client? 04:39:44 I'm not sure 04:40:23 I've never done anything with it so don't trust me I'm probably totally clueless 04:42:10 all I remember is that in djgpp (32bit dos version of gcc) you could have it set gs to a segment that overlaps all RAM 04:42:22 and overwrite everything willy nilly :D 04:42:51 tho you had to use that hack to write to VRAM too 04:43:05 oh geez XD 04:44:10 write garbage to 0xa0000 -> yay pretty garbage on the screen :D 04:45:50 writing code for that was pretty fun actually 04:49:10 that impression of power you get from writing straight to the metal is nice 04:49:33 rather than having 213423 layers of abstraction and you never know anything about what's happening 05:07:37 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 05:07:46 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Client Quit). 05:10:27 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:17:58 `olist 05:18:00 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 05:19:06 oerjan, for your benefit: The new comic is 879 05:20:05 -!- Frooxius has joined. 05:21:10 Also the website is broken 05:21:29 Or, it was, briefly 05:22:12 "Also, this is the last of the 9-in-a-row, so there won't be any more until next week while I try to catch up on other work." 05:25:21 the o in olist stands for oerjan 05:25:22 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:25:39 it also stands for of 05:29:24 -!- Frooxius has joined. 05:29:46 do you know where I can read about Lagrangian Probability Distributions, all the google results seem to be books 05:31:15 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:32:40 Is that a distribution named after Lagrange or a distribution over Lagrangians or a Lagrangian of probabilities 05:33:39 I have no idea, its what you get when you take some random subsets of random binary trees 05:34:20 the distribution of sizes is supposed to be a lagrange distribution 05:34:47 only, I don't know what that is 05:36:54 I've never heard of a "Lagrange distrubition" in common use... 05:38:54 i'll have to go back and bug the professor then 05:46:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gnite). 05:55:16 how would you do something like SSE branch 05:55:43 like, if across your 4 units the condition is false, don't branch 05:55:54 if across your 4 units the condition is true, branch 05:56:04 ptest? 05:56:06 but what if it's only true on some of the units? 05:56:13 ummm usually you use branchless code and merge 05:56:28 say mad have you seen weird-ass computer designs like the connection machine 05:56:35 yeah but that's not really a branch :3 05:56:43 but that's the whole point, you avoid the branch :P 05:56:53 in the absolute worst case, compute both sides and merge 05:57:00 usually you can find shortcuts though 05:57:22 what about the branch at the end of the loop? :D 05:57:34 ummm wait but why would that be per-element 05:57:35 you can't turn that one into a conditional mov :D 05:57:46 I don't understand... 05:57:46 it's the fallout of my current design 05:57:58 branches at the end of loops work the same in simd as normal... 05:58:32 classic risc except that instructions are first done on the "head" unit (the one with the scheduler) 05:58:39 then replicated on the other units 05:59:08 also it's a possible avenue for autovectorization 05:59:46 So you have like... a four vector [7,7,6,7] and decrement loop on each number? And what happens when the 6 zeroes first? 06:00:30 normally something like a loop counter will end up being vectorized as something like [11, 10, 9, 8] 06:01:06 and then once it does the decrement it actually loads the 8 from the last unit into the first one and produces [7, 6, 5, 4] 06:01:44 suppose you exit the loop when i < 1 06:01:59 the next iteration will produce [3, 2, ,1, 0] 06:02:35 since the scheduling is done on the first unit, it will see 3 and try to loop again 06:02:55 This seems like a bad use of autovectorization? 06:02:56 except the branch instruction will go the other way 3 cycles later on the 4th unit 06:03:44 bike : if I can solve this and memory aliasing I can probably get llvm to autovectorize almost any loop 06:04:22 but you're vectorizing something that's probably supposed to go one at a time 06:04:58 hm 06:05:21 well I have to admit that feedback loops that only have += are a lot easier to deal with 06:05:31 since for those ones it can probably guess 06:05:37 like if i have for (int i = 0; i < 10; ++i) print(i); i probably want 0 through 10 to print in order. 06:05:55 right 06:06:13 the trick is that you can put the memory writes after the conditional jump 06:07:12 so your loop will escape before any bad data will get printed 06:07:40 irl it will probably try to vectorize print(i) actually 06:08:13 which will probably work for something like print("Hello world this is a long message") 06:08:35 I mean, I want the prints to happen in a certain order. 06:08:42 not much point in parallelizing that? 06:09:08 tbh it's not what I'm targetting 06:09:12 And if you vectorized a long string print you'd be like, setting up multiple buffers? 06:09:16 more like the data processing loops 06:09:26 I know it's not, I'm just trying to see why you'd want to do this for all loops. 06:09:37 which probably have guessable conditions like for(int i=0; i mostly to avoid the cases where there's some exceptional case somewhere in the loop and the compiler can't guess it so it has to give up entirely on vectorizing 06:10:33 I thought this was the processor? 06:10:59 like, if all the branches go the same way, the branches are almost free 06:11:26 and that's the typical case in loops that aren't completely sequential and where you can't do anything 06:11:58 maybe at some point in the loop it will start going the other side once or twice 06:12:13 which is essentially how branch prediction works 06:13:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:13:25 Oh god there's YET ANOTHER Haskell Iteratee library 06:13:34 Iteratees are the new monad tutorials. 06:13:47 How'ss branch prediction work in Haskell 06:13:53 or maybe I could have two types of vectorized loops 06:14:23 one for manual ASM (where when the 1st unit branch, all units branch, no choice, also no anti-alias) 06:14:55 and one for compilers (which support trapping split branches and memory aliasing but have crazy semantics that make no sense) 06:17:37 hmm 06:17:55 how expensive are comparators in terms of gates 06:19:21 like, is doing 96 comparisons (32 bits each) on each memory read crazy? :D 06:19:50 isn't it subtraction and then sign check 06:20:42 well, it's exact value comparison 06:20:55 xnor 06:20:58 so it can be like a xor for each bit then 32-wide or :D 06:21:24 equality is just xnor and then checking for 1s i guess 06:21:37 I guess that doesn't have much propagation delay 06:21:50 and not all that much many more gates than just a register 06:22:44 96 32-bit xnors on every read sounds like a bit much but i have no basis for comparison 06:23:17 other solution would be just a ~2048 bit array 06:23:26 each cache address gets 1 bit 06:23:41 -!- AgonyLang has quit (Quit: Page closed). 06:34:56 The Beers, Burritos, and Bonghits Diet 06:35:24 but then it can generate false positives :( 06:36:39 it's kinda stupid for handwritten ASM too since people can guess what can alias or not 06:39:44 same for split branches I guess 06:56:43 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:05:02 -!- abumirqaan has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:06:43 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:08:44 -!- ssue_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:19:18 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:34:34 -!- azaq23 has joined. 07:48:46 -!- mad has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 08:16:16 -!- nooga has joined. 08:28:27 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:29:31 -!- ssue_ has joined. 08:42:06 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:47:56 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:53:54 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:58:45 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 09:01:42 -!- abumirqaan has joined. 09:05:51 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:06:50 -!- Jafet has joined. 09:07:05 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:13:34 -!- FreeFull has quit. 09:34:22 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has joined. 09:39:58 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:50:43 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:03:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:29:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:40:23 -!- carado_ has joined. 10:55:10 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 11:10:28 -!- nooodl has joined. 11:13:46 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:13:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 11:13:46 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:30:01 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:43:40 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 11:51:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:51:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:02:06 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:13:55 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 12:35:55 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 12:38:20 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:44:29 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:56:17 -!- carado has joined. 13:00:14 -!- carado_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:00:38 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 13:47:17 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 13:58:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:05:30 -!- ogrom has joined. 14:06:18 -!- boily has joined. 14:06:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:08:44 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 14:11:20 -!- boily has joined. 14:16:57 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:19:35 -!- ogrom has joined. 14:21:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:44:08 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:46:10 `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'if [ $# -ne 0 ]; then for f in "$@"; do echo "#!/bin/cat" && cat "$f"; done; else echo "#!/bin/cat" && cat; fi') > bin/makequine && chmod +x bin/makequine 14:46:16 No output. 14:47:22 `makequine 14:47:53 ​#!/bin/cat 14:55:42 -!- olsner has joined. 14:58:12 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 15:30:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:33:53 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:41:30 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 16:01:30 anyone experience with cpp? 16:01:39 It seems it decides to ignore my -B option 16:04:41 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:05:02 -I works. 16:05:41 but cpp --help does not even list that option 16:06:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:07:23 Hello 16:07:24 AnotherTest: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 16:10:50 mroman_: cpp, as in g++? 16:11:57 When is -(a ProductLog(-(log(a))/a))/(log(a)) integral? 16:12:03 (an integer) 16:12:19 (for what values of a, that is) 16:22:14 I suspected that a^b = b^a (with a !=b) is true only for 4 and 2 16:22:33 I'm not really sure anymore now though 16:22:53 -!- ogrom has joined. 16:24:07 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 16:25:03 log(2) / log(4) = 2 / 4, what other integers exists so that log(a) / log (b) = a/b? 16:25:09 *exist 16:28:29 AnotherTest: I spent some time with a math teacher trying to find others or to prove that they were the only ones 16:28:37 we didn't get very far 16:29:56 (that was in high school though) 16:29:57 well at least not for all combinations of numbers from 2 to 100 16:30:31 b =-(a ProductLog(-(log(a))/a))/(log(a)), but that really doesn't tell me a lot 16:30:37 as I only want integer solutions 16:31:53 normally, log(a) / log(a²) = 1/2, right? 16:32:18 I wouldn't say "normally", since that is always true 16:32:31 yes, always 16:33:24 at least for positive a 16:33:30 now it happens that for 4 and 2, it is true that a² = 2a 16:33:44 (well just for 2) 16:34:01 yup 16:34:35 Well I think log (a) / log(b) = a /b is one of the conditions. 16:35:00 If it really is, then it would indeed only be true for 2 16:35:02 one of the conditions? that's equivalent to a^b=b^a 16:35:19 Well, a != b is there too 16:35:26 so one of both conditions 16:35:27 oh rifht 16:38:38 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 16:41:36 Error: In environment 16:41:36 e : bool = unit 16:41:36 The term "e" has type "bool = unit" while it is expected to have type "bool = unit". 16:42:00 Got DS working on Linux 16:42:34 No sound though :( 16:42:37 I guess in the current context DS doesn't mean "demon spawn". 16:42:48 It means Docking Station 16:43:07 Also, the context of my statement is wholly disconnected from the context of surrounding chat. 16:43:50 so, even if a != b, and e is booleanly unitty, the context of a silent docking station is disjointed from Linux. 16:46:23 wtf is with this error 16:47:32 ahhhh 16:47:34 it was a Set/Type error 16:49:11 I assume this is not Haskell. 16:49:20 Set/Type sounds like a thing you'd see in a dependently typed language 16:51:04 coq 17:02:19 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:06:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:12:04 elliott: I think you may have been right, and Anarchy's type system is probably undecidable after all 17:13:00 thought so :P 17:13:05 though I forget why I thought so!! 17:13:08 but I'm sure it was a good reason 17:17:06 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:24:18 ais523: I assume this won't stop you, though 17:24:32 yeah 17:24:47 I'll just have to work out if being undecidable is actually a problem, and if it is, what restrictions I should put on it to make it decidable 17:28:50 wow, agda gives even worse error messages than coq 17:34:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:35:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:35:05 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:46:41 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:52:04 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:53:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:00:51 Help I think I've just volunteered to cosplay Emperor Hirohito of Japan 18:02:06 Taneb: Easy solution: Start talking about the costume you want to make based on some insane Weeaboo notion of Japan, and they'll kick you out. 18:02:16 Won't work. 18:02:24 We've already got a Hitler, Stalin, and Mao 18:04:30 And no, I'm not going to tell them that Mao only seized power 4 years after Hitler's death 18:04:50 Is that REALLY relevant to that sort of cosplay X-D 18:05:30 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:28:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:31:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:43:58 -!- Bike has joined. 18:48:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:49:32 `? cosplay 18:49:34 cosplay? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:50:12 `pastewisdom 18:50:13 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/ 18:50:37 `learn Cosplay is the art of dressing up as people to show off to other people dressed up as people. 18:50:41 I knew that. 18:50:45 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:54:40 `? colour 18:54:42 ​Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu. 18:59:08 `? color 18:59:10 ​Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu. 19:02:57 Color is a phenomenon from oter space 19:02:57 `learn Coulor is the correct spelling. 19:03:01 I knew that. 19:03:15 -!- nooga has joined. 19:03:30 -!- monqy has joined. 19:03:57 shachaf: Colour is a phenoumenoun froum ooter space. 19:07:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:07:51 * shachaf is in MDW 19:08:20 My appendages are beginning to tingle from lack of sleep. 19:08:30 nice 19:08:57 Although I did sleep a bit on the aæeiroplane. 19:10:33 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:12:20 aæei is one of the better vowels I've seen recently 19:13:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:13:48 shachaf: appendages 19:14:55 appendages are so easy 19:18:46 -!- augur has joined. 19:21:31 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 19:23:02 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:24:12 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:24:15 shachaf: does that mean appendages have an identity element? if so, what is it? 19:25:34 empty appendage 19:28:40 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:48:44 hm. 19:52:21 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 19:52:38 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Changing host). 19:52:38 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 19:53:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:53:52 -!- nooga has joined. 20:00:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:01:03 wtf. 20:01:25 mroman_: hmm? 20:02:54 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:04:15 empty appendages are just that weird!!! 20:06:50 I suspected that a^b = b^a (with a !=b) is true only for 4 and 2 20:07:08 pretty sure i recall that's true for integers 20:07:42 @tell AnotherTest I suspected that a^b = b^a (with a !=b) is true only for 4 and 2 <-- pretty sure i recall that's true for integers 20:07:43 Consider it noted. 20:09:10 @tell AnotherTest Hint: it's equivalent to a^(1/a) = b^(1/b), which is much easier since you are looking at a single function 20:09:10 Consider it noted. 20:09:28 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:10:51 hey, anyone know how offhand to close a Metro program with the touchpad in Windows 8? 20:10:55 we just tried and failed for 10 minutes 20:11:14 (although "click on it then press alt-F4" works, it's not a touchpad-based solution) 20:11:33 oh and I said "touchpad" because Windows 8 acts differently depending on whether its pointer input is a touchpad, touchscreen, or mouse 20:13:04 @tell AnotherTest basically you can graph that function from 0 and up, note it has a single maximum and that means only a finite number of cases that could possibly be the smaller natural number. 20:13:04 Consider it noted. 20:18:59 ais523, I've heard that that's completely non-obvious 20:19:38 -!- myname has joined. 20:20:03 aæei is one of the better vowels I've seen recently <-- æhæ. 20:20:19 Taneb: I know 20:20:32 but I tried some non-obvious things too 20:20:48 Have you tried closing hand? 20:21:03 ? 20:21:30 All fingers spread out -> all fingers together 20:21:34 anybody here any idea on how to have some esoteric fun on android besides brainfuck? 20:22:49 oerjan: i just had to fish through some 2009 logs for some code i wanted and i'd like to apologise for being the worst person in the universe then 20:23:31 Taneb: typical touchpads can handle that many contact points? 20:23:39 I have no idea! 20:23:42 Worth a shot! 20:23:54 elliott: APOLOGY ACCEPTED 20:23:54 myname: hmm… a client to something like EgoBot would be easy enough to do 20:24:15 basically, an online lots-of-esolangs interpreter is a god way to have fun 20:24:35 or sites like anarchy golf ; that supports lots of esolangs 20:24:36 *good 20:25:03 `welcome myname 20:25:05 myname: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:25:52 i was a bit disapointed by the lack of befunge interpreters for android 20:26:22 2D languages could be kinda fun with a touchscreen :) 20:27:06 I imagine a command "palette" and a zoomable, interactive program space. 20:29:50 -!- carado has joined. 20:40:08 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:44:18 -!- TodPunk has joined. 20:48:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:51:11 -!- Murtaugh has joined. 20:55:41 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 20:58:16 Hey 20:58:35 `welcome Murtaugh 20:58:37 Murtaugh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:00:16 Murtaugh, what brings you to the crazy land of #esoteric 21:00:17 ? 21:00:46 I'm looking for a Conway's game of life channel =P 21:01:08 is this phantom hoover's fault 21:01:40 Murtaugh: we don't discuss that much, although this is indeed probably the appropriate channel 21:01:57 every now and then I notice Hashlife exists and try to get the channel interested in it 21:02:07 what are your thoughts on faster than light travel 21:02:15 i should implement hashlife. 21:03:11 perhaps I found a new rule, a very interesting one. 21:03:25 due to a coding error, of course 21:04:01 most of the cellular automaton rules that are uninteresting are obviously uninteresting 21:05:18 Б2/S234 21:05:26 *B 21:05:47 Murtaugh: I assumed it was just gratuitous Cyrillic :) 21:06:03 Life is B3/S23, isn't it? 21:06:13 I forgot to cycle between keymaps =p 21:06:16 Yes 21:06:34 the world needs more gratuitous cyrillic, really 21:06:43 have you discovered a spaceship pattern in it yet? 21:06:50 nope 21:07:10 that's normally the first interesting thing to aim for in a 2D cellular automaton 21:07:15 wikipedia mentions B34/S34 but not just B3 21:07:31 (also in a 1D automaton, but there you care about the spaceships going at different speeds so that they can collide) 21:08:00 I looked everywhere for B2/S234, but there is no info anywhere 21:08:34 probably too similar to life 21:08:38 the problem is that there are so many interesting automata 21:08:47 and so few people to study them 21:09:19 It creates sillicon circuitry-like patterns 21:10:20 and no money backing it up? 21:10:21 lifewiki has b/s234 21:10:36 Isn't there someone here who specializes in CAs? 21:11:01 Oh hey ais523 and I proved something about GoL once 21:11:27 geez, b235678/s378 21:11:30 there are some weird ones 21:11:37 Sgeo: we did? 21:11:40 oh no 21:11:43 wasn't it that really boring result 21:12:51 tell me more 21:13:54 I can't remember what the result was 21:13:57 except it wasn't intersting 21:14:06 =\ 21:14:07 Sgeo cared more about it, so he can probably fill you in 21:15:09 I _think_ it was that on a finitely bounded (e.g. toroidal) game of life, any pattern with a sufficiently large hole has at least one ancestor that is a Garden of Eden. 21:16:41 Hole? 21:16:48 area with no live cells 21:17:30 is post-calculus turing-complete? 21:17:45 there is such a thing as post-calculus? 21:17:50 post machines are 21:17:55 mroman_: if it's even vaguely academic enough for Post to name it 21:18:03 then yes, unless it was intentionally designed as sub-TC 21:18:06 also that 21:18:29 also also whenever Post comes up i feel the need to mention he only had one arm 21:18:50 L-systems are Turing-complete, and they were designed to simulate the growth of algae 21:18:57 you could write a bot to do it for you and save the trouble 21:19:32 I remember more recently trying to think about the proof and worrying that I might have made a mistake 21:19:33 don't you think it would be kind of hard to reliably search for mentions of "Post" referring to the person 21:19:34 Taneb: well algae are probably Turing-complete, if given sufficient (= infinite) space, time, and nutrients 21:19:36 instead of like mail 21:20:11 an individual alga could be turing complete depending what you're testing 21:20:36 e.g. classical conditioning is subturing but you could probably find something in intracellular signaling 21:20:49 Turing-complete algae? 21:21:31 even a box of rotten apples on a string is Turing-complete 21:21:41 but basically, pretty much everything is TC unless there's an obvious reason why it isn't 21:21:48 as such, it's quite hard to construct things on the borderline 21:22:08 you can't classically condition algae anyway :'( 21:22:20 I tried to make a language that is turing complete if and only if the Collatz conjecture is false. 21:22:24 I didn't get very far 21:22:48 I'm sure there are trivial ways to do that 21:22:48 we need a system that autodetects its own turing completeness, then alter itself to stop being TC. 21:23:00 #define __ALLOW_UNBOUNDED_LOOPS falsehood_of(collatz) 21:23:10 Murtaugh: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749 good computer 21:23:32 Bike: it's only interesting if you can implement the compiler without knowing the truth value of the collatz conjecture 21:23:36 (or interpreter) 21:23:40 even 7401 is Turing-complete 21:23:40 "This language is equivalent to Brainfuck if the Collatz conjecture is false, and equivalent to HQ9+ if it is true" 21:23:53 a system proving that it's turing complete seems like you'd run into godel something 21:23:58 ais523, wow, wasn't expecting a nice way to get rid of the trivialities 21:24:01 ...maybe 21:24:21 Hmmmmm. Is it possible, in a Turing complete system, to determine whether another system is Turing complete? (Note that the answer for ourself would probably be false, since the /environment/ is TC but we've created a particular system which is possibly not maybe) 21:24:37 you know i think i still don't have a non-shitty version of that paper showing that generalized collatz is unsolveable 21:24:44 i.e., if I feed the description of a Turing machine into a (preprogrammed) Turing machine, can it tell me that that's a TC system? 21:24:53 mmmm interesting crab computer 21:25:09 Gregor, my first instinct is "no", but my instincts suck 21:25:19 It feels very Halting-problem-y X-D 21:25:31 Gregor: it's clearly possible to have a computable system that's capable of proving that some system is equivalent to a Turing machine 21:25:48 Gregor: i'm vaguely thinking there might be a curry-howard thing making that equivalent to proving a system consistent but i dunno 21:25:49 sure, but that's different 21:25:55 ais523: Oh? 21:26:02 although one of Gödel's theorems shows that any system that can prove /itself/ equivalent to a Turing machine can also prove at least one incorrect statement 21:26:15 Gregor: imagine a system that's almost, but not quite, the same as a Turing machine 21:26:18 right that one 21:26:53 meh. my idea's been gödelled. 21:26:56 although one of Gödel's theorems shows that any system that can prove /itself/ equivalent to a Turing machine can also prove at least one incorrect statement // the system may very well NOT be equivalent to a Turing machine, unless you can feed it machines in such a way that it calculates. 21:27:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:27:41 -!- AnotherTest has left. 21:27:50 ais523: What am I supposed to do while imagining this system X-D 21:28:01 well 21:28:01 Gregor: well, it's very easy to prove equivalent to a Turing machine 21:28:10 you don't need very much power to do the proving at all 21:28:21 the extreme example is "mirror-reflections of Turing machines" 21:28:36 and a proof language that can only see that descriptions are the same under reflection 21:28:45 with brainfuck bolted on to make it TC 21:28:57 But that's an infinite set, and you're trying to prove that something is in the set. What if it's not? 21:29:15 Gregor: you're trying to prove two infinite sets equivalent 21:29:20 which you can do simply by showing a bijection 21:30:18 What if one is equivalent to the reals 21:30:39 what does that matter 21:30:43 Wouldn't be surprised if there was a machine that either spits out the correct answer or no answer 21:30:57 Yeah, I'm modestly lost in the analogy because as far as I can determine that's not what you're trying to do... 21:31:17 perhaps we're thinking of different questions entirely 21:31:22 shit i have a textbook that almost certainly went over whether the set of turing machines is recursive or r.e. what is wrong with me 21:31:25 Actually, it would be surprising if there _WASN'T_ a machine that either spits out the correct answer or no answer 21:31:40 Sgeo: Here's one: while (true); 21:32:03 not if there is a machine that doesn't, if there is no machine that does, gregor 21:32:23 Bike, ..huh? 21:32:35 what is that in relation to 21:32:35 I agree with Sgeo on this matter. 21:33:15 Bike: I presented an example of a machine that “either spits out the correct answer or no answer”. It happens to choose “no answer” with 100% probability. 21:33:36 oh 21:33:42 -!- cookienugget has joined. 21:33:54 hey everyone 21:34:02 what was the lang with the arrows ? 21:34:17 ais523: Ohohoh, yeah, you were answering the later part when you were saying it might come down to Gödel's theorem X-D 21:34:17 erlang 21:34:38 There are a lot of languages with arrows, but you may be thinking of Befunge? 21:34:54 Do those count as arrows? 21:35:08 nah 21:35:13 there's a newish BF derivative made entirely out of Unicode arrows 21:35:21 Whatever the Brainfuck-equivalent-of-the-day is that replaces the BF commands with arrows in the 8 — lol, I was just kidding. 21:35:23 yeah 21:35:24 Or I hoped I was. 21:35:24 I forget the name, because it's a BF derivative and therefore probably uninteresting 21:35:28 vit or what was ? 21:35:33 Gregor: it's not quite that simple 21:35:38 not sure if that makes it better or worse 21:36:05 ais523, is my BF derivative uninteresting? :( 21:36:26 Is looking at Idris a good idea? 21:36:37 Elba? 21:36:58 oh, that other thing. 21:37:00 ~duck elba 21:37:10 oh. right. bot first, duck second. 21:37:16 idris elba is an actor. 21:37:23 -!- metasepia has joined. 21:37:26 Sgeo: are you sure you want to know the answer to that question? 21:37:28 ~duck idris elba 21:37:29 Idrissa Akuna "Idris" Elba is an English television, theatre, and film actor who has starred in both British and American productions. 21:37:49 ais523, yes 21:37:58 bleh, now I have to look it up 21:38:10 ~duck interest 21:38:11 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:38:11 interest definition: right, title, or legal share in something. 21:38:17 Oh, I was afraid that asking that question was an answer in and of itself 21:38:27 oh, trustfuck 21:38:30 that's more interesting than average 21:38:38 fungot: what's up 21:38:44 fungot's not in ? 21:38:45 it's an esolang along the lines of "take a language people already know so we can concentrate on the weirdnesses" 21:38:48 How 'bout compared to ShaFuck X-D 21:39:23 I think Brainfuck had some issues being a basis for it 21:39:26 fizzie: please summon fungot from its deep torpor. 21:39:28 Some creative possibilities denied 21:39:37 (or is it torpour? that's the problem with being canadian.) 21:40:23 tourpour 21:41:15 tourpour sounds like a random unpalatable veggie. 21:42:07 taeiourpaeioureaux 21:42:46 wtf what a stupid error: i assigned the same address to two different "variables" 21:43:25 Gregor: wasn't it forbidden by the UN? 21:43:40 this is the most random channel I've ever been 21:43:59 Murtaugh: hmm… small IRC communities normally get this way 21:44:00 Must... not... name... that... channel 21:44:03 I prefer them to talk more on topic 21:44:16 Sgeo: I don't know which channel you're talking about, but I agree you shouldn't name it 21:44:18 Murtaugh: It'd be hard to beat in that dimension. 21:44:25 ais523, one of the Freenode kline channels 21:44:30 boily: Yup. Horsemeat. 21:44:35 I just want to do some programming with dependent types 21:44:40 And Idris was the first thing that came up 21:44:46 And it has Haskell-like syntax 21:44:59 Sgeo: if it's a kline channel, it can't possibly be random, can it? it's empty by definition 21:45:03 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:45:11 ais523, true 21:45:14 isn't agda the sexy thing 21:45:22 it's like saying "that room over there is random, because it's empty, because it kills anyone who enters it" 21:45:25 I thought a kline channel was a channel with no inside or outside 21:45:28 it's both kin of scary, and a non sequitur 21:45:31 *kind of scary 21:46:13 We're outside a kline channel? That means... we're IN one, man. woah 21:47:25 Oh hey, the hello world compiled 21:47:39 Generally a good sign 21:48:02 FreeFull: oh no, you're reminding me of a past exam question I was talking my students through today 21:48:10 and it took me like 5 minutes to get the answer 21:48:30 because it was a trick question, and I recognised it was a trick question, but failed to recognise what the trick was 21:48:41 even though I knew what the trick was, I was wrong about how it was being applied 21:51:28 this paper is anti-monoidal. i'm sorry shachaf 21:52:08 @hoogle [a] -> [([a],[a])] 21:52:08 Network.CGI.Protocol formDecode :: String -> [(String, String)] 21:52:08 Network.CGI formDecode :: String -> [(String, String)] 21:52:08 Network.CGI.Cookie readCookies :: String -> [(String, String)] 21:52:13 yay 21:52:49 @hoogle [a] -> [([b],[c])] 21:52:49 Control.Monad mapAndUnzipM :: Monad m => (a -> m (b, c)) -> [a] -> m ([b], [c]) 21:52:49 Prelude readList :: Read a => ReadS [a] 21:52:49 Text.Read readList :: Read a => ReadS [a] 21:55:12 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 21:55:42 :t \xs -> takeWhile (not.null.snd) $ map (`splitAt` xs) [0..] 21:55:44 [a] -> [([a], [a])] 21:55:50 > (\xs -> takeWhile (not.null.snd) $ map (`splitAt` xs) [0..]) "hello" 21:55:52 [("","hello"),("h","ello"),("he","llo"),("hel","lo"),("hell","o")] 21:56:54 I thought a kline channel was a channel with no inside or outside <-- you are clearly confusing with "klein channel", hth 21:57:31 lolwut 21:58:34 > zip<$>inits<*>tails$"hello" 21:58:36 [("","hello"),("h","ello"),("he","llo"),("hel","lo"),("hell","o"),("hello",... 21:58:46 ais523: What was the question? 21:58:56 Murtaugh, here we make jokes based on somewhat obscure subjects 21:59:01 For instance, Kleine bottles 21:59:07 oerjan, I get how that works, but do people generally consider that readable? 21:59:15 I did understand the joke 21:59:39 Applicative is cooler than monads 21:59:55 Wonder if applicatives should get syntax sugar 22:00:12 Sgeo: well the (->) monad/applicative is always a little dubious 22:00:16 If I say something about klein bottles irl people will just go "WTF?" at me 22:00:18 :t tails 22:00:20 [a] -> [[a]] 22:00:21 FreeFull: "here is some Java code that compiles but does not do what it's intended to, make three corrections to the code and two to the documentation" 22:00:22 Also wonder if a monad could be made to act as syntax sugar for applicatives. I think it would have to error at runtime if you tried something illegal though 22:00:29 > tails "hello" 22:00:31 ["hello","ello","llo","lo","o",""] 22:00:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:00:46 yeah that seems sensible enough 22:01:17 oerjan, too bad, I like that monad/applicative 22:01:29 Reminds me of J 22:02:15 :t inits 22:02:15 hah i was thinking "that's a verb train!" too 22:02:16 [a] -> [[a]] 22:02:18 well NOW it doesn't seem sensible 22:02:23 :t tails 22:02:25 [a] -> [[a]] 22:02:27 :t <*> 22:02:29 parse error on input `<*>' 22:02:32 :t (<*>) 22:02:34 Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 22:02:35 Ok, that is actually very straightforward 22:02:37 right 22:02:58 > (+) <$> id <*> id $ 5 22:03:00 10 22:03:10 > (+) <$> id <*> (+1) $ 5 22:03:11 11 22:03:21 Bike, do those make sense? 22:03:24 Those should be clearer 22:03:25 yes 22:03:27 > (/) <$> sum <*> length $ [1,2,3,4,5] 22:03:28 No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int) 22:03:29 arising from a use o... 22:03:34 it's "so easy" 22:03:36 wait. why doesn't this work 22:03:44 > zip <$> inits <*> inits <*> inits $ "fuck" 22:03:46 Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> b0' 22:03:46 with actual type `[(a1... 22:03:49 nooodl: length is an int 22:03:49 cool 22:03:55 Or rather returns an Int 22:04:03 You'll want fromIntegral somewhere 22:04:11 > (/) <$> sum <*> fromIntegral.length $ [1,2,3,4,5] 22:04:14 3.0 22:04:17 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 22:04:18 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:04:22 > 15 / 5 22:04:24 3.0 22:04:27 ^ this works fine, though 22:04:29 so does this do average in parallel 22:04:44 (like J??) 22:04:45 nooodl: All valid Num instances have a fromInteger 22:04:51 ) (+/%#) 1 2 3 4 5 22:04:51 Sgeo: 3 22:05:01 3 is actually fromInteger 3 underneath 22:05:07 i was rewriting (+/%#) which is a j "idiom" for average 22:05:26 FreeFull: oh 22:05:32 i mean, accumulating the length in the same reduction that it accumulates the sum 22:05:33 nooodl: If you have an Integer though, it won't automatically get converted to whatever Num instance you want 22:05:44 > (3 :: Integer) / 4 22:05:46 No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer) 22:05:47 arising f... 22:06:22 i see 22:06:52 which i assume J does because J is god 22:06:55 so does this do average in parallel <-- i don't think so, ghc isn't very good at deforesting two lists concurrently 22:07:21 J doesn't do that :( 22:07:27 dammit J you had one job 22:07:42 (e.g. the documentation for zipWith mentions you only get one of them fused) 22:07:52 -!- nooga has joined. 22:07:55 I gotta go 22:08:02 bye 22:08:08 bye Murtaugh 22:08:45 -!- Murtaugh has quit (Quit: Ping timeout: 10^100*(65536^65536)+(e^(pi*i)) seconds). 22:08:52 Bike: You could write an efficient average using pipes I think 22:09:20 hmm. a recent haskell idea thingy i had, inspired by J: some datatype that's a pair of inverse functions 22:09:41 @tell murtaugh Ping timeout: TREE(3) seconds 22:09:42 Consider it noted. 22:09:43 * Sgeo wonders if this would end up being lense 22:09:44 lenses 22:09:51 can you do it with lenses 22:09:54 was my real question 22:17:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:27:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:27:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 22:27:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:30:13 http://codepad.org/q0Zc9nnT mmmh 22:31:41 > (:[]) . head [4,5] 22:31:43 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (f0 a0)) 22:31:43 arising from a use of `e_145' 22:31:43 Pos... 22:32:01 > (:[]) $ head [4,5] 22:32:04 [4] 22:32:41 > (:[]) . head $ [4,5] 22:32:44 [4] 22:32:51 fuckin operator precedence 22:33:44 yeah maybe there should be a law for the thingy going the other way too 22:37:54 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:38:08 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 22:39:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:42:08 -!- cookienugget has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:45:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:45:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 22:45:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:45:46 Hey, Idris actually has a proper unary - 22:46:56 nooodl: Class Foo a b where { foo :: a -> b; defoo :: b -> a } Something like this? 22:48:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:49:14 that's what's in the paste 22:50:29 except with infixity for some reason. 22:57:01 spoiler: 22:57:09 they're infix operators because i couldn't think of a name for them 22:57:21 i like the way i defined them, though. 22:59:18 alice, bob 23:00:47 phobos and deimos 23:02:10 -!- augur has joined. 23:03:49 pain and confusion right? perfect for programming 23:04:11 fear and dread. oh well 23:04:44 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 23:05:21 "reg" and "inv" maybe 23:10:51 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:11:32 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:15:01 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 23:16:26 i thought there was already a package for isomorphisms 23:16:28 i thought generally that f⁻¹ . f = id = f . f⁻¹, or am i confusing things with left inverse or wetfuck 23:19:20 you're right 23:21:19 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 23:21:52 kmc: lens!!!!! 23:22:58 hey elliott can lens do average as one fold or what 23:23:57 um maybe 23:24:04 you can do that with ```fold zipping''' 23:24:08 it forms an applicative functor 23:24:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:24:41 that's a lot of quotes is this a python docsting 23:25:14 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:25:20 data Fold a b = Fold b (a -> Fold a b) 23:25:41 sumF = sumF' 0 where sumF' !n = Fold n (\_ -> sumF' (n+1)) 23:25:48 ,,quotes,, 23:25:49 er 23:25:54 sumF = sumF' 0 where sumF' !n = Fold n (\m -> sumF' (n+m)) 23:26:09 lengthF = lengthF' 0 where lengthF' !n = Fold n (\_ -> lengthF' (n+1)) 23:26:11 then you can do 23:26:17 runFold ((/) <$> sumF <*> lengthF) [1,2,3] 23:26:38 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:26:53 btw this is at least 47% profound 23:27:03 that's p. profound 23:27:17 oh it's a comonad too iirc 23:27:42 wait is it a cofree comonad 23:27:52 it is 23:27:58 it's Cofree ((->) a) 23:28:14 wow 23:28:20 upping the profundity to 72% 23:28:33 oh cool it's basically dual to Supply too. 23:28:54 yo does anybody in here have the slightest clue what im talking about 23:29:05 nope 23:29:36 what about kmc 23:32:07 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 23:34:12 that's neat 23:34:30 i feel only slightly reassured 23:34:35 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?"). 23:34:46 What's Supply? 23:34:52 > (,) <$> (+3) <*> (*3) $ ZipList [1,2,3,4,5] 23:34:54 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Control.Applicative.ZipList a0)) 23:34:54 arising f... 23:34:58 Supply = Free ((->) r) 23:35:06 what are pure and <*> for Fold 23:35:07 Fold = Cofree ((->) r) 23:35:09 > (,) <$> (tails) <*> (heads) $ ZipList [1,2,3,4,5] 23:35:10 actually fold is more like supply 23:35:12 Not in scope: `heads' 23:35:12 Perhaps you meant one of these: 23:35:12 `reads' (imported... 23:35:20 kmc: pure a = Fold a (const (pure a)) 23:35:30 i.e. just like foldr (\_ b -> b) a 23:35:37 (<*>) is a bit trickier iirc 23:35:39 Err, so, a free monad based on reader, so... can take a potentially infinite number of arguments and pass them in, or what? 23:35:40 ok 23:35:41 FreeFull: inits 23:36:13 kmc: oh maybe it's just Fold f q <*> Fold x r = Fold (f x) (\v -> q v <*> r v)??? 23:36:30 Sgeo: eg you can feed Free ((->) Int) from stdin 23:36:30 > (,) <$> (tails) <*> (inits) $ ZipList [1,2,3,4,5] 23:36:32 Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' 23:36:32 with actual type `Control.... 23:36:33 or from a predefined stream of Ints 23:36:35 or from an RNG 23:36:44 Of course doesn't work on ZipLists 23:36:58 ALSO is there like a formal model of code serialization somewhere because i'm blanking 23:37:01 back later 23:37:02 elliott, is there a way to supply it with a finite source? 23:37:21 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: No route to host). 23:38:05 yes but your result will have to be eg in maybe 23:38:09 Free ((->) r) a -> [r] -> Maybe a 23:38:17 because it might ask for an "r" when you don't have any left 23:40:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:51:15 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:54:16 so that's a no 23:55:39 imo you're a no 23:55:44 (its actually a yes) 23:55:49 :( 23:55:56 for instance you couldn't do that with (Stream r -> a) 23:56:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:56:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 23:56:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 2013-03-07: 00:04:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:04:12 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 00:04:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:04:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:21:14 -!- carado_ has joined. 00:21:38 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:21:48 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado. 00:22:40 -!- kallisti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:31:51 How does Free (Cont r) behave? 00:58:25 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:03:00 :t runState 01:03:02 State s a -> s -> (a, s) 01:03:15 @src State 01:03:16 Source not found. :( 01:03:38 The order of applicatives matter, yet there's no nice syntax for rearranging the order when using a nonmonadic applicative 01:03:59 :t (<**>) 01:04:00 Ambiguous occurrence `<**>' 01:04:01 It could refer to either `Control.Applicative.<**>', 01:04:01 imported from `Control.Applicative' at State/L.hs:4:1-26 01:04:08 cool 01:04:18 @hoogle (<**>) 01:04:18 @hoogle (<**>) 01:04:18 Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 01:04:19 Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 01:04:29 (not flip (<*>)) 01:04:32 ambiguous occuence 01:05:04 I still think a do-like syntax for applicatives could be reasonable 01:05:32 Sgeo: i've been thinking comprehension syntax is more fitting 01:05:57 Good point 01:06:40 all you need afaict is to check that none of the comma separated <- declarations use each other 01:06:48 But, if there's a monad that let's you put applicatives together (maybe returning Nothing if you attempt an illegal operation), monad comprehensions could be used 01:07:14 Although direct syntax support would be better 01:10:44 oerjan: well comprehensions and do notations are basically the same. though the free "pure" in comprehensions suits applicatives well 01:11:13 yes, the latter is what i was thinking 01:15:04 so [f x y z | x <- ..., y <- ..., z <- ...] ==> f <$> ... <*> ... <*> ... 01:15:20 hmm it would work well with record puns, too bad record puns are evil 01:15:29 or can you pun that way... 01:20:52 seems backwards 01:21:26 or wait i'm thinking of record wildcards 01:23:29 I was thinking if you could do [Rec{..} | field <- ..., field2 <- ...] 01:23:49 that's wildcards 01:24:32 and also backwards, i think 01:24:41 what do you mean by backwards 01:25:03 that .. is a pattern you get the names _out_ of, not put them into 01:25:22 oh wait 01:25:42 that seems to be allowed 01:26:04 that should work then 01:27:30 I wonder if you get a fun type error if you e.g. forget to bind field3 01:27:37 and it tries to do field3 = field3 01:27:41 where field3 is the _accessor_ function 01:27:44 (because punning is awful) 01:27:53 probably it just detects that I guess :( 01:28:31 it says that particular binding is excluded 01:36:56 Dependently typed languages don't have idiotic numbers of zip functions, right? 01:37:05 zip3 zip4 zipOkThisIsDumb 01:37:10 :t zip4 01:37:11 [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d] -> [(a, b, c, d)] 01:37:20 Just use HLists instead of tuples 01:38:27 HLists ~ tuples 01:38:39 that was how they were originally written 01:38:41 nothing to do with dependent types, also 01:38:52 ZipList abstracts away the zip pattern 01:39:19 HLists are tuples structured like lists though, rather than flat, iirc 01:39:39 (1, (2,3)) rather than (1,2,3) 01:39:46 or, erm 01:39:51 more like (1,(2,(3,()))) 01:39:53 (1, (2, (3, ()))) 01:39:54 that's some old school shit right there 01:39:58 anyway it's a bad representation because you get O(n) access 01:42:31 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:45:54 > zip (zip (zip (repeat ()) (repeat ())) (repeat ())) (repeat ())) 01:45:55 :1:64: parse error on input `)' 01:45:59 > zip (zip (zip (repeat ()) (repeat ())) (repeat ())) (repeat ()) 01:46:01 [((((),()),()),()),((((),()),()),()),((((),()),()),()),((((),()),()),()),((... 01:48:55 > join $ fix $ (["","()"]++) . ap (zipWith (\x y->"("++x++y++")")) tail 01:48:57 "()(())(()(()))((())(()(())))((()(()))((())(()(()))))(((())(()(())))((()(()... 01:49:14 it's like i'm really using an esolang 01:49:57 you're not, Bike. because you don't know haskell 01:50:01 because you're barely even a person!!!! 01:50:07 i'm barely even a bike 01:50:35 what kind of bike are you 01:50:49 a fixie 01:51:07 > fix it 01:51:07 but you don't fix anything 01:51:08 Not in scope: `it' 01:51:08 Perhaps you meant one of these: 01:51:08 `id' (imported from ... 01:51:17 @google fixie 01:51:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-gear_bicycle 01:51:19 Title: Fixed-gear bicycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 01:51:22 > let bike = const "Bike" in fix bike 01:51:24 "Bike" 01:51:28 thanks 01:51:36 :t const "shitshitshit" 01:51:38 b -> [Char] 01:51:40 i know what fixies are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCKER 01:51:43 oh nice 01:51:56 I did not know what a fixie s 01:51:57 is 01:52:26 hope that helped 01:52:35 elliott, what's that thing that was in lambdabot that made a joke about fixing? 01:52:47 @fix 01:52:47 Maybe you meant: bid faq ft id thx 01:52:52 @id 01:52:56 @thx 01:52:56 you are welcome 01:53:00 @id foo 01:53:00 foo 01:53:00 :-) 01:53:04 @id "honk 01:53:05 "honk 01:53:23 i think i must be tired because im laughing at Bike's smiley 01:53:29 and i usually only laugh when i use that smiley 01:53:42 are you okay bro 01:53:44 !underload (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:) 01:53:45 no :( 01:53:46 ​(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:) 01:53:55 :( 01:54:02 :t ( :) 01:54:04 a -> [a] -> [a] 01:54:05 elliott, I laughed when you said that what I said was the saddest thing you've heard 01:54:16 the saddest thing he'd heard you say 01:54:53 Sgeo: were you tired 01:54:59 I don't remember 01:55:06 insufficient data for meaningful answer 01:57:32 @pl (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x) 01:57:35 ap id id (ap id id) 01:57:35 optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue. 01:57:42 @pl-resume 01:57:48 ap id id (ap id id) 01:57:48 optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue. 01:57:53 uh...? 01:57:56 i think i see where this is going 01:57:57 optimization? 01:58:20 its optimising the points away 01:58:54 But the points are gone 01:59:00 Why is it still trying to get rid of more? 01:59:50 :t app 01:59:51 ArrowApply a => a (a b c, b) c 02:00:01 wait i thought arrows sucked 02:00:49 (#(% %) #(% %)) 02:00:50 Clojure 02:00:56 elegant 02:01:07 its ap not app 02:01:12 :t ap 02:01:13 its trying to make the code shorter 02:01:14 oh 02:01:14 Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 02:01:17 whoa 02:01:58 :t id<*>id$id<*>id 02:02:00 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0 02:02:00 Expected type: (a0 -> b0) -> a0 02:02:00 Actual type: (a0 -> b0) -> a0 -> b0 02:02:04 uh? 02:02:11 :t (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x) 02:02:13 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = t1 -> t0 02:02:13 In the first argument of `x', namely `x' 02:02:13 In the expression: x x 02:02:21 did you expect that to work i'm confused 02:03:54 :t \x -> x x 02:03:56 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = t1 -> t0 02:03:56 In the first argument of `x', namely `x' 02:03:56 In the expression: x x 02:04:06 this is why fix exists surely 02:04:45 There are functions you can pass to themselves 02:04:58 So why can't I write a function that can only take such a function? 02:05:07 what functions can you pass to themselves 02:05:11 id 02:05:21 Sgeo: what type do you expect (\x -> x x) to have 02:05:24 well that's because it's polymorphic isn't it 02:05:29 note that it can be assigned a type but not in haskell 2010 02:05:45 oh? what type would it be assigned? 02:05:58 Bike: i won't spoil 02:06:05 you dick 02:06:10 ok i will but only if everyone gives up 02:06:27 how can we give up if we're too incompetent to even guess 02:06:33 does it count as giving up if i already know the answer? 02:06:39 yes 02:06:43 you don't count as part of everyone, oerjan 02:06:44 ok then 02:06:56 a priori i assume that anything i could possibly say is something oerjan already knows 02:06:59 and i'm ok with that 02:07:14 I don't know anything about type theory outside of Haskell. Well, a little subtyping I guess 02:07:21 its not really anything to do with type theory 02:07:30 Typeclasses? 02:07:35 no 02:07:46 surely \x -> x x not being typeable in HM is type theory something 02:07:47 Some sort of or type? 02:07:56 (\x -> x x) is a function so must have type $A -> $B for some $A, $B 02:08:11 are those perl style variables 02:08:18 we apply x inside so we know $A must be a function type, ($C -> $D) -> $B for some $C, $D, $B 02:08:30 the function's result is the result of applying x 02:08:32 so $B = $D 02:08:39 Recursive types 02:08:40 ($C -> $D) -> $D for some $C, $D 02:08:50 $C is what we pass in i.e. the type of x 02:09:01 but oops, that's infinite 02:09:03 $C = $C -> $D 02:09:09 02:03:56 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = t1 -> t0 02:09:34 from a rank2 pov we can assign the type (\x -> x x) :: (forall a. a -> a) -> b -> b 02:09:38 but it's not inferred 02:10:15 Bike: btw fucking learn haskell you god damn fixie 02:10:17 @where lyah 02:10:18 http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ 02:10:20 go. go do it 02:10:24 that fuckin book 02:10:31 i dont care 02:10:36 about your opinions of the book 02:10:46 well i'm certainly not doing it now but that's because my head is underwater 02:10:58 how about this tomorrow i will learn agda and then shoot you 02:10:59 buy hutton's programming in haskell if you want I hear that's good!!!! 02:11:10 fuck it give up and read real world haskell if you want to be the worst person slash bike 02:11:14 i don't care it just needs to happen 02:11:17 why 02:11:27 well rwh is kind of crappy as a `first read' 02:11:39 no i mean why does it need to happen 02:12:02 look 02:12:06 Why does Bike hate LYAH? 02:12:13 either you'll learn and understand 02:12:15 or you'll die trying 02:12:18 and it won't matter any more 02:12:22 i don't hate it, i just think it's kind of irritating 02:12:27 headlines FIRST BICYCLE KILLED BY HASKELL 02:12:31 SIMON PEYTON JONES ARRESTED 02:12:32 okay fuck fine i'll try it right now you fucking shitter 02:12:37 thx <3 02:12:40 fucking sun 02:12:43 fuck you, sun. 02:13:02 Bike: have you read why's (poignant) guide to ruby 02:13:02 Sun's dead. Try Oracle. 02:13:12 lyah is the tamest shit in comparison (and i love wpgtr with all my heart) 02:13:39 i read some of wpgtr but i thought it was funnier than lyah 02:13:39 iirc wpgtr says something and that something is obsolete 02:13:48 Some flaw that Ruby had that was fixed 02:13:50 i forget why i don't like lyah, maybe it's because i hate joy 02:13:55 well wpgtr was last updated like a billion years ago 02:13:56 do i hate joy? i forget 02:14:01 i think its for ruby 1.8.something 02:14:04 Joy is a different language. 02:14:14 but it doesn't matter because nobody has ever learned ruby from wpgtr 02:14:16 and that's the beauty of it 02:14:26 i like joy the language i mean joy the happiness 02:14:35 did you know wpgtr has a soundtrack 02:14:46 yes 02:14:54 good bicycle 02:15:25 -!- kallisti has joined. 02:15:26 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 02:15:26 -!- kallisti has joined. 02:15:30 is there a haskell mode for emacs that isn't bullshit 02:15:39 yes its called the haskell mode 02:15:44 cool 02:15:46 just get the latest one from git or whatever since your package might just be shit 02:15:54 oh i set it into stupid indentation mode i think 02:15:59 since the smart indentation mode irritates me 02:16:05 like it knows better than me 02:16:12 and wants to cycle thoruhg every possible indentation when i press tab 02:16:16 wow it's actually in a repository gosh 02:16:21 "did you know it's theoretically possible for you to write code at this indentation here???" 02:16:26 haha 02:16:37 also in reality 02:16:38 i just use vim 02:16:38 elliott: those are the best indentations you know 02:16:45 and type my indentation manually 02:16:49 by pressing the spacebar 02:16:55 i don't know when i regressed like this but i am happy 02:17:10 oh right 02:17:17 it's because i tried the fancy alternative haskell mode thing chrisdone had 02:17:30 and it annoyed the hell out of me and wanted me to make a .cabal for everything when i just wanted to load a file into ghci 02:17:39 so i gave up and started doing vi foo.hs instead 02:17:39 so what's the usual mode for editing haskell 02:17:49 like uh 02:17:52 "workflow" that's the ticket 02:17:53 well chrisdone just merged the good stuff into real haskell-mode i think 02:17:56 oh 02:17:59 well you write stuff in a file 02:18:00 C-c C-l 02:18:05 it loads in the ghci in the other emacs window 02:18:09 oh good, i'm all over that. 02:18:09 and you switch over and evaluate stuff 02:18:16 its basically like lisp but we don't have anything fancy like slime 02:18:37 suddenly i have the horrible idea of writing haskell swank 02:18:51 like it's basically literally the same as running ghci in another terminal and pressing :r 02:18:54 which is what i do now 02:19:08 well i'll miss C-c C-c but i can deal 02:19:11 :r still wipes bindings 02:19:13 :( 02:19:27 i've forgotten what c-c c-c does 02:19:28 it's been so long 02:19:29 why would it not 02:19:38 holy fuck haskell-platform installs a lot 02:20:00 Because I want to test a function with some data that took some time to produce and don't want to re-create the data each time I change the function 02:20:03 everything haskell platform installs for you is something you cant fuck up installing manually with cabal-install 02:20:08 accept the blessing 02:20:43 Sgeo: yeah sounds like C-c C-c would be good for that, but a lot of times being able to destroy old bindings would be kind of nice too 02:21:11 yo 02:21:14 what does c-c c-c do!!! 02:21:16 don't leave me in the dark 02:21:20 elliott: until you need to upgrade a package 02:21:25 slime-compile-defun 02:21:31 Jafet: that's when you throw out your computer and buy a new one 02:21:33 just compiles and loads the current form 02:21:36 instead of like, the whole file. 02:21:46 % format / 02:22:22 whole-file vs single-function isn't relevant, it's what happens to old bindings made at REPL that's relevant 02:22:33 Bike: the real cool emacs stuff starts when you give up on ever writing programs and just go to coq and agda 02:22:43 good, i hate programs 02:22:44 where you get tightly-integrated ~HYPER-INTERACTIVE~ emacs environments 02:22:49 it's pretty much the best 02:23:48 Maybe I should be a teacher instead of a programmer 02:25:34 hey Bike should i sleep 02:25:38 god yes 02:25:45 ok but why 02:25:50 is it so you can have peace 02:26:04 because you're whiting out every few seconds and at this rate you'll become a p-zombie 02:26:20 ok becoming a p-zombie is now on my list of life goals 02:26:30 just before becoming a bicycle (how do you do it???) 02:26:34 read more smullyan then 02:26:38 it's an ancient secret i'm afraid 02:26:45 ancient wisdom of the bicycles 02:27:06 "so for reasons that will remain unclear i have an account on a novell network which uses windows 7 and i wish to get the sam and system files or the password hashes and saved onto a flashdrive" ##asm is a great channel 02:27:15 nice 02:27:53 it's like 98% actual asm questions 2% random scriptkiddies asking for hacking help 02:28:24 plot twist: 40% of the actual asm questions are people trying to wargame. 02:28:31 97% homework questions 02:28:36 well as I understand it the point of assembler is to bypass the security checks in the Micro-Soft Windows operating system to achieve a lower level of control with which to extract the necessary passwords from the system code 02:28:37 Yeah XD but wargame stuff sounds really cool 02:28:46 lol 02:29:15 that is why microsoft do not supply an assembler. it is too risky 02:30:11 do you ever get the feeling someone in the channel is taking your bullshit joke seriously 02:30:17 i'm getting that feeling real strong right now 02:30:37 you think someone in this channel would say "Micro-Soft"? 02:30:48 bike have you SEEN the people in thnis channel 02:30:53 is it me 02:30:56 am i the narc? 02:30:57 it's everyone 02:31:02 oh shit 02:31:12 and noöne (← DIÆRESIS) 02:31:13 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:32:08 -!- wareya has joined. 02:32:10 damn Bike you are so right. i should be sleeping 02:32:14 see 02:32:22 `welcome Bike 02:32:28 Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:32:33 this is the advantage of the ancient wisdom of the bicycles. 02:33:12 right britland 02:33:50 bike have you ever even seen a britland 02:34:03 Only once, when I was young. 02:34:22 wow you're looking at my time without permission 02:34:27 that's confidential Bike 02:34:38 @localtime elliott 02:34:39 Local time for elliott is Thu Mar 7 02:34:38 2013 02:34:47 GUYS?? SOME PRIVACY??? 02:35:03 what if ghosts find me 02:35:05 /say @localtime had better just ctcp people 02:35:34 @localtime words more words 02:35:51 @localtime words Sgeo lambdabot words 02:35:54 /say hello Bike 02:35:58 good command. 02:36:09 /help 02:36:20 /sleep 02:36:42 02:36:39 -!- Irssi: Unknown command: sleep 02:36:46 my irc client sucks 02:36:53 /msg nickserv ghost elliott 02:37:08 kmc: whats your password 02:38:05 bonghits4jesus 02:38:42 i didn't believe you but tried to ghost you nonetheless 02:38:47 basic principles of professionalism 02:38:54 you sure did 02:39:06 did it tell you 02:39:11 you're one of the worst sleepers i've ever seen. 02:39:16 did it say hey kmc im nickserv the snitchand that elliott guy is the WORST 02:39:16 nobody will guess my password because i used the numeral '4' instead of the word 'four' 02:39:24 yes 02:39:24 you lied again 02:39:25 im so upset 02:39:33 Bike: wait am i asleep 02:39:37 is this all a dream 02:39:39 no not you that other guy 02:39:40 don't you trust me kmc 02:39:42 with your password 02:39:47 no 02:39:48 fuck do i look like zhuangzi to you 02:39:48 fuck you already have mine since i use mosh 02:39:49 hth 02:39:56 and im sure you have some great backdoors in that crypto 02:40:00 and don't forget that sharing is caring 02:40:04 no i just have a backdoor for AES 02:40:06 don't you acre 02:40:08 about anything 02:40:09 'much better' 02:41:04 Bike: what does it feel like to be able to decide to go to sleep and then enact that decision successfully 02:41:25 narcoleptic. 02:41:50 i wish i was narcoleptic 02:41:55 It feels like being dead tired at midnight instead of 2pm 02:42:11 It's... weird. 02:43:06 I think... my sleep schedule has actually been quasinormal lately 02:44:40 im starting to become irritated at everything for existing 02:44:49 especialyl Bike because bicycles feel more like tangible objects than humans to me 02:45:32 FireFlys aren't humans either. 02:45:54 And humans being the dual of pumpkins seems weird 02:46:50 elliott may already be a dualist! 02:47:13 im offended Bike 02:47:29 What if I threw in being a duelist as well? 02:47:58 like galois 02:47:59 Bike: do you know haskell yet 02:48:20 Almost. 02:48:26 Just need to figure out these monad things. 02:48:33 i know some good tutorials for that :-) 02:48:44 (-: 02:48:50 (-:-) fusion 02:48:58 that's sick 02:48:59 superglued them eyeballzzz together 02:50:50 dual & duel smiling power 02:50:55 twice the noses: twice the power 02:51:06 can ü comprehend it 02:51:15 even as a bicycle you have never seen the dawning of a day with this much smiling upon it 02:52:08 Bike my irc client is about to literally explode if you dont tell me to go to bed again 02:53:06 Bike is away: are you asleep yet? 02:53:50 rip Bike 02:53:53 died from being away 02:56:24 (-:-) TIE FIGHTER 02:56:35 combining tie fighter above 02:56:44 yes 02:57:03 bike you told me you were away 02:57:04 did you lie 02:57:19 Bike is away: do you regret? 02:58:37 have joined ##asm 02:59:29 the hacker already left sorry 03:00:06 HACKERS 03:00:33 sgeo you're kind of adorable sometimes i hope you know that 03:02:36 -!- Sanky has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:03:03 -!- Sanky has joined. 03:11:20 -!- monqy has joined. 03:11:49 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:20:15 how do i get inferior-haskell to get me a repl? haskell wiki says to C-c C-l something but that seems pretty dumb 03:20:57 C-c C-l 03:21:06 fuck 03:21:09 if yo uwant a repl without a file, you can open a terminal and type ghci 03:21:11 but seriously you want a file 03:21:17 since declarations are like 10x more convenient in a file 03:21:19 and like indentation and stuff 03:21:26 okay yes but i want a repl too 03:21:52 lyah starts with a repl. i gotta go by the book here. 03:22:53 ok so open a terminal 03:22:54 and type ghci 03:22:56 and press enter 03:23:09 alternatively m-x some shit FUCK I NEED TO SLEEP 03:23:13 fine ;_; 03:26:15 oh 4 * -3 isn't allowed, nice 03:26:55 > 4 * -3 03:26:58 Precedence parsing error 03:26:58 cannot mix `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] and prefix ... 03:27:01 huh so it isn't 03:27:06 well negative numbers are kin dof a clusterfuck 03:27:08 just put them in parens always 03:27:09 its like lisp 03:27:13 its a long story 03:27:36 it's gross 03:27:37 > ((*) 4 ((-) 3)) 03:27:39 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a0)) 03:27:39 arising from a use of `e_143' 03:27:39 ... 03:27:43 er what 03:27:45 monqy: whats Your Solution i have my solution 03:28:03 :t (-) 03:28:05 Num a => a -> a -> a 03:28:13 oh. is there like negate somewhere 03:28:15 > negate 4 03:28:16 -4 03:28:20 perfection 03:28:25 elliott: my solution is get rid of unary -, have -4 and such be numeric literal, use negate if you want a function 03:28:39 and in that moment i swear we were all monqy 03:28:42 monqy: and what does (- 3) mean 03:28:50 section 03:28:51 it means - takes two arguments 03:28:55 monqy: u passed the test 03:28:59 monqy: however what does foo x = -x mean????? 03:29:05 > ((*) 4 (negate 3)) 03:29:07 -12 03:29:14 const -x 03:29:17 maybe i'll write all my haskell like this to piss people off pointlessly 03:29:20 (-x is an identifier) 03:29:26 (that's alliteration) 03:29:29 yikes monqy yikes 03:29:29 oh wait 03:29:33 > (- 3) 5 03:29:35 Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t)) 03:29:35 arising from the ambiguity chec... 03:29:41 Why is elliott still awake? 03:29:46 good fucking question 03:29:47 yeah i'd probably end up making haskell into agda somehow 03:30:03 mixfix is kind of awful 03:30:05 but also kind of good 03:30:06 god dammit 03:30:07 im going 03:30:07 bye 03:30:09 shit 03:30:10 bye 03:32:17 bye 03:32:25 elliott: narcolepsy is not that fun 03:32:42 shh he's asleep 03:33:27 "You may not have known it but we've been using functions now all along. For instance, * is a function that takes two numbers and multiplies them." this is pretty great 03:37:03 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 03:37:20 -!- Bike has joined. 03:39:08 Sgeo: talking about languages is a bad idea hth 03:39:38 In that channel, maybe. 03:39:58 what did sgeo do.... 03:40:20 Mentioned Haskell in ##asm. Or maybe it was someone else but anyway now everything is terrible. 03:40:34 I'm going along with it because I'm also terrible? I don't know. 03:41:16 the person who's arguing with you, I haven't even seen them post anything except off-topic video clips before this o_O 03:41:21 freenode is weird 03:41:56 I wish people wouldn't do the "thing is obviously absurd and useless" for things that obviously exist. It's so uncreative. 03:42:20 > ((1 +) * (2 +)) 3 03:42:22 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a0)) 03:42:22 arising from a use of `e_1123' 03:42:22 ... 03:44:08 "This is a very simple example of a common pattern you will see throughout Haskell. Making basic functions that are obviously correct and then combining them into more complex functions." good tutorial, this 03:45:56 ok i have a confession: I didn't know haskell actually had a basic if 03:46:16 i thought you used case everywhere 03:48:17 Real functional programmers use if' 03:48:37 if syntax lets you do fun things with indentation though 03:49:10 * Bike hits tab a few times. what 03:51:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:54:48 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 03:55:36 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Client Quit). 03:55:53 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 04:03:09 * oerjan assumes that Bike's "what" was followed by " could possibly go wrong?" 04:03:29 "the hell just went wrong", more like. 04:03:59 whatever it was, the tabs swallowed it. 04:18:02 Sgeo: So anyway, I'm curious, what's so alien about assembly? 04:18:48 It's so... low-level 04:18:51 Ish 04:18:57 I don't actually know Assembly really 04:19:07 You didn't learn any in school? 04:19:24 They teach assembly in schools? 04:19:29 (My school sucked) 04:19:46 Yeah, I learned basic ancient MIPS in arch class. 04:20:14 I had an OS class. We wrote in C#, because the professor wrote a computer simulator thingy in C# 04:20:36 Except it wasn't really a good simulator, since you didn't write things like memory management stuff in the assembly of the simulator, you wrote it in C# 04:20:50 we learned MIPS in the architecture class I took, and in another one of the low-level ones we had to learn basic x86 asm and how to debug with gdb, reverse engineer a basic program 04:21:07 like the program was a "bomb" and asked for a series of codes, and we had to use a debugger and look at the asm to figure out each code 04:21:15 and each one had a progressively more obfuscated way of validating the codes 04:21:24 Sgeo: OS is a bit different from arch, I think. 04:21:29 and each time you inputted a wrong code, it'd email the teacher XD 04:21:52 that seems like it'd just annoy them really 04:22:00 the professor would take off a small number of points for each one 04:22:08 (only up to a limited amount, it wasn't major) 04:22:14 it was mainly just to encourage people to figure out how to patch out the emailer 04:22:21 hehe 04:23:00 the OS class didn't have any outright asm but it did deal with a lot of low level stuff, since we were doing, like, paging and threading on a mips simulator 04:23:16 the intro CS class had a toy asm language that they used. that and python were the two intro languages 04:23:29 so um.... I guess there was kinda a good amount of asm 04:24:04 Maybe it's related to Sgeo apparently getting some kind of IT degree, though he sure knows a lot of CS so I get confused about what the heck he was actually taught. 04:25:04 they definitely did a good job at being varied, I mean, there was everything from a class that covered natural deduction and formal logic and stuff (and had no coding!) to scheme and haskell and java and C++ and asm and stuff 04:25:20 and prolog. prolog says No., fiora, you are not getting an A. 04:25:26 Bike, http://www.farmingdale.edu/academics/business/bcs/courses.shtml 04:25:54 I also get confused that you actually lived in a place called Farmingdale, and I can see cows from my fucking window. 04:26:09 "Programming in Visual Basic " oh you poor dear 04:26:30 There ... was a C++ one too 04:26:36 I don't know why it's not there 04:27:03 I don't think we actually had any courses called 'programming in ' 04:27:11 like gosh I can't remember any, I don't think they existed 04:27:14 Oh, they're still there, just not called "C++" 04:27:16 well that seems pretty boring overall 04:27:24 Bike, yes. 04:27:28 hm let me see if there were any "programming in X" classes at my old school 04:27:45 I guess the closest we had to that is the intro course was mostly python, and the data structures class was mostly C++ 04:27:46 Also this is available courses, it's not like all of them were mandatory 04:27:55 'course 04:28:10 Fiora: well you're learning programming, not learning a language, at least nominally. 04:28:22 the compilers course used Lisp but it's not like they'd advertise that as "lisp programming" :P 04:28:23 yeah, that's what I mean 04:28:29 http://schedules.wsu.edu/List/Vancouver/20133/CS 04:28:51 the compiler course I took used haskell but like. only a little bit of it covered haskell 04:28:53 haha advanced topics is concurrency. 04:28:59 the professor kind of expected us to magically figure everything out after the first two weeks <.< 04:29:17 i thought haskell let you do everything magically?? was i wrong 04:29:26 but yeah i have a compilers book that uses SML and it's like dude i don't know SML what is this 04:30:21 related to haskell: is there a way to keep infinite lists from printing forever because that's pretty much not what I want? 04:30:25 so my memories of haskell are like, a mix of "gosh this is hard and oh gosh how do monads work and aghhhhh" and "wow pattern matching is so cool and the type system and omg" 04:30:36 Bike, can turn it into a finite list 04:30:43 take 50 yourList 04:30:50 :( 04:31:05 Or Ctrl-C if that's what you mean, although I don't know what the emacs-y version is 04:31:27 it's still ctrl-c (inferior-haskell is pretty much just a shell anyway) 04:31:59 it's just in CL I can do (setf *print-length* 50) and then when i do something stupid it at least stops. i imagine there's some config option for ghci, just wondering if anybody knows it 04:33:42 Try asking in Haskell? 04:33:58 oops i thought this was #haskell 04:35:59 close enough, right? XD 04:37:15 Looks like lambdabot just puts an ellipsis there after some characters with no regard to anything. 04:38:24 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:38:30 -!- DH____ has joined. 04:39:53 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:39:59 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 04:54:12 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:54:12 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:05:46 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 05:18:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:41:53 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:10:05 -!- Jafet has joined. 06:33:58 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 06:34:02 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:34:47 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 06:41:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:41:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 06:41:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:47:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:49:57 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:59:13 -!- applicative_ has joined. 06:59:42 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:07:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:07:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 07:07:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:09:42 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:11:19 fungot 07:11:37 `quote fungot 07:11:50 11) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 14) Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 15) oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea 07:15:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:22:08 -!- applicative_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:29:33 -!- fungot has joined. 07:29:34 I AM SUMMONED 07:36:06 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:38:06 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:38:41 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:46:41 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:03:11 -!- monqy has joined. 08:03:50 Spell of summon fungot 08:03:50 Jafet: abstraction by not explicitly renaming anything will interact very poorly and have strange bugs. in that time 08:05:10 -!- nooga has joined. 08:09:40 -!- azaq23 has joined. 09:06:24 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:26:55 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:57:40 -!- nooga has joined. 10:11:59 http://ideone.com/luw5I2 that was kind of funny. (It doesn't do that on *my* 4.7.2.) 10:12:16 (I know it's probably a bad, I was just curious.) 10:15:07 that's pretty amazing 10:51:25 -!- carado has joined. 11:25:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:12:49 -!- cookienugget has joined. 12:13:38 ah, I remembered the lang wih the arrows, it was ziim 12:42:22 -!- oonbotti has joined. 12:45:21 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 12:52:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:15:12 :( I didn't eat dinner yet and it's now 8:15 AM 13:15:16 I did fall asleep 13:15:17 ugh 13:33:11 -!- boily has joined. 13:33:55 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:46:18 -!- monqy has joined. 14:02:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:25:04 -!- cookienugget has quit. 14:26:37 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:26:50 -!- carado has joined. 14:31:40 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:32:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:39:11 -!- cookienugget has joined. 14:46:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:47:01 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:02:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 15:07:14 Eep 15:07:34 Another company wants to pay me more than Ipreo (if they hire me), but it's more of a temporary position 15:36:03 fungot 15:36:03 quintopia: i do not know 15:36:21 are you quoting zzo38 at me fungot 15:36:21 quintopia: i don't believe in wimpy shortcut functions. let them eat their ice cream or water ice on a small board in my case 15:37:51 quintopia: hi! 15:38:00 how are you boily 15:38:03 fungot: zzo38-hi! 15:38:03 boily: what about naivity, then? 15:38:54 quintopia: hungry. some vietnamese demon has been visiting my mind and urging me to eat pho. 15:39:15 fungot: don't you dare undiaerese naïvity at me, you rambunctious bot! 15:39:16 boily: apparently lostchild doesn't msn, since that idea doesn't strike me as being overconfident n00b... so i'm trying to figure out 15:39:16 boily: i think this demon has your best interests at heart 15:39:49 boily: it's spelled naïvete actually. i think fungot just misspelled nativity 15:39:49 quintopia: you did it right. " would somebody please find a gimp irc channel and try to infer types 15:40:30 even fungot agrees i fixed his mistake 15:40:30 quintopia: how is it 15:40:38 excellent fungot 15:40:39 quintopia: if i avoid any dependence whatsoever on state held in the surrounding emacs instance, the repl didn't fnord and had these bug guys called fnord 15:50:09 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:50:34 I am now addicted to http://www.bonkersworld.net/ 15:53:30 https://developers.google.com/events/io/ 15:53:34 click the buttons 15:56:33 after the wobbly shapes, a game. 15:58:58 I don't get the wobbly shapes. It's not asking to input 13. I got the answer, but only because I was quasi-randomly clicking around 16:00:11 Oh, there are all several ones 16:00:15 11010011 16:00:29 13,3 16:01:10 ~eval 0xd3 16:01:13 Error (1): 16:01:23 I never like Simon as a game 16:02:57 I'm used to Simon ending at 10 16:03:05 ~eval 0xd3 16:03:06 211 16:03:06 Because it was a puzzle in Mutation 16:03:11 (I usually cheated) 16:14:56 what language is metasepia 16:18:44 how do you cheat 16:18:47 write it down? 16:19:46 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:20:18 Yes 16:20:35 Since it's also a chat thing, I just typed the number of each one into the chat bo 16:20:36 box 16:22:21 Help 16:22:30 I've bought a vaguely popular album 16:22:46 how did you buy it? 16:22:51 Amazon 16:22:58 digital download? 16:23:06 Nah, ordered CD 16:23:19 so it's not too late to cancel the order and pirate it! 16:23:26 No, it is! 16:23:33 I'm holding the CD! 16:23:36 Well, I'm not 16:23:39 I'm playing the CD 16:23:45 And I've got the CD case here 16:24:18 nooodl: haskell. 16:24:42 -!- Bike has joined. 16:26:16 On another note, I'm beginning to really enjoy Schlock Mercenary 16:26:26 I'm up to.. February 2004 16:26:31 At two pages a day 16:27:18 oh okay, so in a few more decades you might be caught up 16:28:18 Perhaps 16:30:40 I'm a tad confused how RhythmBox can only work out the length of one track 16:30:50 And it's track 7 16:32:11 CDs actually only store the length of track numbers that are multiples of 7, good cd players use sofisticated heuristics to figure out the rest of it 16:39:12 Also, I found out recently that the E in "Ngevd" doesn't stand for elliott, after all. 16:39:16 It stands for eliot. 16:39:20 :( 16:39:53 pretty sure the e stands for ngevd, it's a recursive acronym 16:40:57 olsner, that's what the G stands for 16:41:06 I'm not Nathan Ngevd Ngevd van Doorn 16:41:09 the g? there is no g in ngevd 16:41:17 it starts with a ng 16:42:49 Nguyen Nguyen Engevd van Doorn? 16:43:50 NGevd ngEvd ngeVd ngevD 16:44:23 Taneb: What is ngevd? 16:44:37 g'eegan 16:44:43 Let's ask HackEgo 16:44:45 `? Ngevd 16:44:50 ​,WAc;ME6rH7ysF'U@?Dvij\]$5iהV3"4UٛZ5K߲b3QdW#!kftPڭYtDnF!men}$.Ke=֜7,͕tE#CxZ(]zϤ82msċXA.g•G 16:44:55 Thanks, HackEgo! 16:45:02 shachaf, that's Ngevd 16:45:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:45:28 I really should correct that italics-screen-urxvt combo bug. 16:46:47 the what ? 16:46:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:47:15 italics are rendered as reverse video in my terminal when I'm in screen, which means all the time. 16:47:27 :P 16:47:43 Phantom_Hoover, there's a stronghold on the Minecraft server 16:47:53 why is most of your terminal text in italics ? 16:49:00 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has joined. 16:49:45 cookienugget: it usually isn't, as normal text is. I'm just always not far away from a screen session, and when someone ngevds, I like it to be properly rendered. 16:49:52 I mean, it's a matter of honour. 16:50:40 :D 16:50:56 Taneb: What does the nge stand for? 16:51:36 "Nathan George Eliot" 16:52:31 Not GNU Eliot 16:52:40 Alas, no 16:54:10 Partially because I am annoyed by how insistent GNU is on tacking itself onto Linux's name when it's used as an OS 16:54:23 Partially, because, as the ancient war-ballad goes, 16:54:27 "That's not my name" 16:54:31 "That's not my name" 17:07:28 GLASSES PEOPLE 17:07:29 INSTRUCT ME 17:07:31 HOW DO I GLASSES 17:07:51 Gregor: Directly. 17:08:05 That advise does not help. 17:08:10 *advice 17:08:15 I can't even type properly with these fool things. 17:09:06 Gregor: OK... Indirectly? 17:10:05 Gregor, have you been playing Sburb and combining a computer with your glasses 17:10:39 Noooooo 17:11:27 Does Gregor Homestuck? 17:11:31 If not, he should. 17:11:38 You people. 17:11:40 You are not helpful. 17:11:59 No, he should not. 17:12:09 Gregor: To be fair your question wasn't helpful either. 17:12:15 help Taneb help you 17:12:25 I have new glasses. 17:12:36 Where by "new" I mean "I have never worn any sort of vision correction in my life" 17:12:44 I... don't get it. 17:12:48 I don't know how to glasses., 17:13:15 Unfold them, so you get two pointing things hanging out. Put on such that pointy things are above ears 17:13:26 Yeah, I got that much. 17:13:44 Gregor: Oh, I remember that. 17:13:51 Gregor, the pointy things hanging out point downwards 17:13:56 * shachaf got glasses -- ~6 years ago? 17:14:01 A little less. 17:14:13 Well, they hook downwards 17:14:23 shachaf: HOW 17:14:26 shachaf: HOW DO YOU GLASSES 17:14:36 Gregor: It sort of happens automatically. 17:14:38 Gregor, try to walk around with them on 17:14:39 But it takes a while. 17:14:42 shachaf: Or perhaps more importantly, does the adjustment phase end? Because right now everything is much clearer without them. 17:14:49 Taneb: They're not general-purpose, walkin' around sort of glasses. 17:14:52 Clearer without them? 17:14:58 shachaf: Yes. 17:15:01 Oh, I think we're talking about different things. 17:15:13 Mine were general-purose, walkin' around sort of glasses. 17:15:24 Erm, they should be clearer when worn, if a bit confusing 17:15:28 I think 17:15:29 By my understanding, the concept is the same X-D 17:15:37 Then again, the glasses I've worn aren't really that strong 17:15:38 I got glasses some 18 years ago, I think. 17:15:58 They're not general-purpose because their focal areas (or whatever these are called) are optimized for computer use, not general use. 17:16:06 But they're still supposed to be glasses X-D 17:16:18 HOLY CRAP IT IS CLEARER WITH THEM ON 17:16:36 zomg 17:16:38 It's just hard to know where/how to look at things. 17:16:38 Yes, that's supposed to happen. 17:16:44 Gregor: You're missing out on the experience of looking at trees! 17:16:55 shachaf: I can look at trees without glasses >_> 17:17:04 Or I can play Minecraft and look at trees with glasses. 17:17:50 Gregor: The experience of seeing Minecraft-looking trees turn into real-world-looking trees when you put your glasses on. 17:18:00 shachaf: My eyes are nowhere near that bad. 17:18:10 Mine aren't either. 17:18:16 My trees are much less cubical even without glasses. 17:18:18 But it was still quite an experience, looking at trees! 17:18:23 Actually, I have 20/20 vision, I just get eyestrain due to focal issues. 17:18:24 The resolution is approximately Minecrafty, though. 17:18:31 Hallways. It's hallways that get me. 17:18:56 I get this "holy crap the world is so bright and sharp" feeling every time I clean my glasses, though. (I can manage that maybe once a month, so they're quite... opaque immediately before.) 17:18:58 I'm not good at reading signs 17:18:59 My right eye's fine, my left eye isn't. So it's always a trip being able to have real depth perception 17:22:34 I've got glasses of strength somewhere around -4.0 to -4.5, which is I guess reasonably a lot but not terribly a horribly much. 17:25:58 Gregor: Have you considered a monocle? You seem a monocle kind of a guy. 17:26:09 Perhaps even two monocles. 17:26:13 lol 17:26:24 Maybe two monocles connected with some kind of a bridge over the nose. 17:26:25 And for efficiency, the monocles can be attached via the nose. 17:26:29 An—damn X-D 17:26:30 preflex: seen kmc 17:27:17 Also, a monocle sounds more appropriate for "computer stuff", too. Glasses for general use, a monocle for operating a computer, that's the general rule. 17:29:19 a monocle, a smoking, a top hat, white gloves and maybe a kind of sword cane 17:29:40 -!- hagb4rd|lounge has changed nick to hagb4rd. 17:29:42 co classy 17:29:46 *so 17:31:07 don't you thinK? 17:31:44 hichaf 17:32:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:33:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:33:44 "a smoking" 17:33:47 kmc: I ended up taking M60 to the Harlem-125th Metro-North station. 17:34:08 Then I got on the express train instead of the local train, and went to Yonkers. 17:36:15 Is that like being bonkers, except with Y? 17:39:24 Surprisingly, yes. 17:40:02 gregor: my dictionary says "tuxedo" or "dinner jacket". for that i wonder why we name it "smoking" here in germany. 17:40:21 "Smoking jacket" is a thing. 17:40:28 ok 17:40:31 Perhaps "smoking" is a German shortform of that? 17:40:36 it is yes 17:40:44 Well there ya go X-D 17:40:50 cool :) 17:41:01 thx 17:41:35 Actually, I have a top hat and white gloves already. 17:41:48 So all I need is to saw these glasses in half and get a smoking jacket. 17:42:11 And all you need to get a smoking jacket is a book of matches and a regular jacket. 17:42:20 Indeed! 17:45:47 -!- iamcal_ has quit (*.net *.split). 17:45:47 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 17:48:26 wtf if io 17:48:49 also is it a game? i have a hard time finding something meaningful to do in the second level. 17:49:48 oh there are multiple second levels. 17:49:49 k 17:49:56 just like Sgeo said, i suppose. 17:51:07 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:52:03 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:52:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:53:35 shachaf: cool 17:54:03 oh you were not trying to get to yonkers were you 17:54:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:54:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:54:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:54:27 No, I was trying to get to Spuyten Duyvil. 17:54:35 did you get back? 17:55:07 The conductor wrote me an impromptu ticket back. 17:57:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6TVVP-gy1Q 17:57:58 <3 this song 17:58:38 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:14 -!- carado has joined. 18:15:00 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:28:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:34:36 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:35:15 Maybe I could understand quantum computing if I learn the monad that someone wrote for it 18:37:20 I think a quantum computing monad'd be more useful on a quantum computer 18:41:32 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 18:42:59 It comes with a simulator 18:52:17 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:03:37 Program received signal SIGTRAP, Trace/breakpoint trap. 19:03:39 0x77515655 in ntdll!RtlpSetUserPreferredUILanguages () from C:\Windows\system32\ntdll.dll 19:03:46 the hell is that o_O 19:09:51 someone forgot a breakpoint. 19:15:16 warning: Heap block at 00530F60 modified at 00530F6C past requested size of 4 19:15:30 I must be doing something horribly wrong then :D 19:15:52 Trivia: it's difficult to guess how to code in C++ 19:24:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:25:49 holy shit :( 19:26:10 but interesting that it worked :) 19:26:12 I tried and got 14 pages of errors 19:26:20 struct foobar* = malloc(sizeof(struct foobar*)); 19:26:24 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:27:13 mroman_: that looks like undefined behavior 19:27:13 AnotherTest: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 19:27:17 not sure if it is though 19:27:26 That looks like a parse error. 19:28:01 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:28:04 struct foobar *foo = malloc(sizeof *foo); // may be what you wanted 19:28:58 Taneb: how do you define a page? 19:29:13 pikhq_: struct foobar* foo = malloc(sizeof(foo*)); is what I did 19:29:15 Probably bigger than the standard size 19:29:28 Which is wrong 19:30:11 Yeah, that's still a parse error. 19:31:09 -!- Jafet1 has joined. 19:31:26 Okay, if I actually printed this out, it's be just over 9 pages 19:32:12 Taneb: what font size? 19:32:18 and what font? 19:32:33 How much padding? 19:34:22 Size 10, liberation mono, chrome's default 19:34:42 10mm at top, 14.5mm at bottom,10mm at sides 19:34:57 pikhq_: foo* -> foobar* 19:35:20 + struct 19:38:47 also "foobar"->foobar is apparentely legal 19:39:08 not really legal. 19:40:35 Taneb: distance between lines :)? 19:40:53 Look, do you just want me to link it to you? 19:41:00 no, it's fine 19:42:07 -!- aloril has joined. 19:42:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:42:50 http://sprunge.us/SBTS 19:44:40 Enya literally lives in a castle. 19:46:16 -!- iamcal_ has joined. 19:46:29 Michael Flatley also wanted that castle 19:46:34 I... just... wat. 19:50:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:12:50 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 20:12:58 -!- nooga has joined. 20:25:21 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 20:28:54 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:32:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Going to go do a pre-interview screening things). 20:36:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:40:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:52:48 gregor: my dictionary says "tuxedo" or "dinner jacket". for that i wonder why we name it "smoking" here in germany. <-- it's smoking in norwegian too fwiw 20:54:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:55:42 Well, that was easy 20:58:32 does that mean you have a job now? 20:59:26 It was just a "technical pre-screen" 21:01:39 aka an x-ray demanded by their insurance company, if you pass you get a _damn_ good health insurance 21:01:45 "What is 1+3?" "If I give you a computer, a hammer and a screwdriver, which tool would you use to open the computer?" 21:02:34 the hammer is nice for when the screwdriver isn't working properly, right? 21:02:41 Gregor, 1+3 is 1+3. Personally I'd use the computer. 21:02:43 I'd use the computer to open it. 21:02:51 darn. Taneb is quicker than me. 21:03:03 boily, great minds think alike! 21:03:36 great minds sometimes skip the most obvious jokes. 21:03:49 It was a thing where they asked questions and then they see exactly what you type and delete etc 21:03:49 s/skip/discard/ 21:04:13 I actually have a link to the questions and my answers, but don't know if it's a good idea to just go around sharing it 21:04:17 oerjan, why discard the most obvious 21:04:35 Discard the most subtle, because nobody's gonna get thsoe 21:04:51 but neither was subtle. 21:04:59 oerjan: it's the end of the day, and I'm only on my... *count on his fingers*... around 4th cup of coffee, ±2. 21:05:11 oerjan: my brains aren't working anymore. 21:05:44 i'm on my first half cup of coffee. i didn't want more as my stomach isn't too well. 21:06:14 I'm on my zeroth 21:08:22 @tell quintopia Btw, this lunch's pho was good. I did well to listen to my Vietnamese demon. 21:08:22 Consider it noted. 21:08:42 @tell boily sounds good. but i'm gonna have fried chicken! ha 21:08:42 Consider it noted. 21:13:54 my demon must be from somewhere else, it only wants me to eat children, although none of the restaurants around here serve it. 21:14:34 *serves 21:15:03 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 21:15:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:16:30 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:21:35 oerjan: *serve, "none" uses plural verbs. 21:23:05 is this one of those british/american things? 21:24:11 No. 21:24:21 This is one of those correct/incorrect things. 21:24:29 "serve" is correct, and "serves" is incorrect. 21:24:32 "Usually, a singular verb follows NONE, even if the noun following it is plural." 21:25:06 Um... no? What completely-broken source are you getting that from? 21:26:01 one of the google summaries for "none verb subject agreement" 21:27:38 “Usually, a singular verb follows NONE, even if the noun following it is plural. However, in 21:27:38 conversational English, a plural noun has become acceptable.” 21:27:40 Ugh 21:27:42 they both seem right to me 21:27:49 > :1:1: parse error on input `<' 21:27:51 can't find file: L.hs 21:27:53 http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/sv_agr.htm is more subtle. 21:27:56 oh come on 21:27:58 > :1:1: parse error on input `<' 21:28:00 :1:1: parse error on input `<' 21:28:06 i think "serves" is what I taught as a tutor 21:28:07 quintopia: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:28:13 Sgeo: nice 21:28:19 @messages 21:28:19 elliott asked 2m 27d 14h 55m 5s ago: is the description for quintopia_a on the strategies page up-to-date for space_hotel? 21:28:19 ais523 said 2m 14d 6h 9m 12s ago: I made a program based on what we discussed, and a few other concepts too; see ais523_stealth 21:28:19 ais523 said 27d 18h 42m 27s ago: I just beat space_hotel by over 10 score :) Can you remember when anticipation2 topped the hill (2012, or 2013)? I want to write about it and about omnipotence 21:28:19 boily said 19m 57s ago: Btw, this lunch's pho was good. I did well to listen to my Vietnamese demon. 21:28:32 24 days huh 21:28:34 ) foobar 21:28:34 Sgeo: |value error: foobar 21:28:43 ) Sgeo: |value error: foobar 21:28:44 Sgeo: |spelling error 21:28:44 Sgeo: | Sgeo: |value error: foobar 21:28:44 Sgeo: | ^ 21:28:50 Does Mannerisky still visit #esoteric? 21:28:50 ) Sgeo: |spelling error 21:28:51 Sgeo: |spelling error 21:28:51 Sgeo: | Sgeo: |spelling error 21:28:51 Sgeo: | ^ 21:29:09 damn you, multiline errors 21:30:57 > Hmm 21:30:58 Not in scope: data constructor `Hmm' 21:31:12 > Not in scope: data constructor `Not' 21:31:13 :1:5: parse error on input `in' 21:31:19 darn 21:31:56 > fnord 21:31:58 can't find file: L.hs 21:32:01 > fnord 21:32:02 Not in scope: `fnord' 21:33:19 > show 21:33:20 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> GHC.Base.String)) 21:33:21 arising from a u... 21:33:41 oh well 21:33:44 > Nothing 21:33:46 Nothing 21:33:46 Should make a Haskell program to make error quines 21:33:48 it's a quine! 21:34:14 nooodl_: but not an error 21:34:16 remotely functional languages really take the fun out of quines :'( 21:34:19 > error "hm" 21:34:21 *Exception: hm 21:36:25 > :1:1: parse error on input `<' 21:36:26 :1:1: parse error on input `<' 21:36:30 that's all i can find :( 21:37:08 i wonder if there's any error quines that aren't parse errors 21:37:35 > not in scope 21:37:37 :1:5: parse error on input `in' 21:37:42 > not scope 21:37:44 Not in scope: `scope' 21:37:57 That in causes parse errors, unless you can find a way to work around it 21:38:11 Or find an error other than not in scope errors 21:38:24 > No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> GHC.Base.String)) 21:38:25 :1:4: parse error on input `instance' 21:38:27 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:38:38 Can't use no instance errors 21:38:43 > fromJust Nothing 21:38:45 *Exception: Maybe.fromJust: Nothing 21:38:53 That would probably be a parse error 21:40:30 let's say you have a corpus of text to train an AI with 21:40:53 > (:1:59: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 21:40:55 :1:59: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 21:40:55 And let's say that corpus of text is fungot's collected wisdom. 21:40:56 Sgeo: i don't even have to be loaded. thus loading the srfis is implementation-dependant and not portable for every goddamn thing we suggest. i've just got home and called me away from my reading list for too long 21:40:56 how do you take an input sentence and determine which words are "the most interesting"? 21:41:22 look for the least frequent ones? 21:41:25 -!- carado has joined. 21:41:46 Interesting to what? For what? 21:43:04 my guess would be that you lookup each word from the input sentence in your corpus and determine their frequency of occurence, then calculate the standard deviation of all the words' frequencies and accept only words below a threshhold 21:43:08 > can't find file: L.hs 21:43:08 > can't find file: L.hs 21:43:10 mueval-core: L.hs: removeLink: does not exist (No such file or directory) 21:43:10 Not in scope: `can't'Not in scope: `file'Not in scope: `L.hs' 21:43:16 oops 21:43:22 close enough. you get the idea 21:44:19 Bike: interesting for the purposes of making a passable chat bot that can reply to things 21:44:53 > 1*undefined 21:44:55 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:45:02 > e*undefined 21:45:04 e * *Exception: Prelude.undefined 21:45:05 onedefined 21:45:14 hth 21:45:45 > e 21:45:47 e 21:45:49 :t e 21:45:51 Expr 21:48:12 I think you want 2 markov models 21:48:18 > var$ap(++)show"var$ap(++)show" 21:48:19 so that you can construct a sentence "around" a given keyword 21:48:21 var$ap(++)show"var$ap(++)show" 21:48:24 the stuff before and the stuff after 21:48:45 but that only works with one keyword. not sure how you could incorporate multiple keywords into this process 21:48:45 @type var 21:48:47 String -> Sym a 21:49:50 > var$(++)<*>show$"var$(++)<*>show$" 21:49:52 var$(++)<*>show$"var$(++)<*>show$" 21:50:39 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:52:52 :t fun 21:52:53 FromExpr a => String -> a 21:52:54 13:16 > mueval: recoverEncode: invаlid argument (invalid character) 21:53:03 > mueval: recoverEncode: invаlid argument (invalid character) 21:53:04 mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character) 21:53:08 Sadly it's not a real quine. 21:53:17 > join fun"join fun"::Expr 21:53:18 join fun "join fun" 21:53:36 > join fun"join fun" 21:53:38 Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints: 21:53:38 (GHC.Show.Show a0) 21:53:38 ... 21:53:42 sad 21:54:08 shachaf: because of the extra space? 21:54:15 :t expr 21:54:17 Expr -> Expr 21:54:18 No, because it's different text. 21:54:19 oh 21:54:42 > expr$join fun "expr$join fun" 21:54:44 expr$join fun "expr$join fun" 21:55:34 > expr.join fun$ "expr.join fun$" 21:55:36 expr.join fun$ "expr.join fun$" 21:57:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:58:36 :t sym 21:58:38 Not in scope: `sym' 21:58:38 Perhaps you meant one of these: 21:58:38 `sum' (imported from Data.List), 22:02:27 > "(++)??show"&(++)??show 22:02:29 Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> b0' 22:02:29 with actual type `[GHC... 22:02:35 :t (&) 22:02:37 a -> (a -> b) -> b 22:02:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:02:51 :t (??) 22:02:52 Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 22:04:32 erm 22:04:53 > "&([show,id]=<<)"&([show,id]=<<) 22:04:54 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char -> [b0]' 22:04:55 with act... 22:05:13 @hoogle (??) 22:05:14 keyword ?? 22:05:15 oh hm 22:05:26 wtf lambdabot 22:05:42 > "&(??)[show,id]"&(??)[show,id] 22:05:44 ["\"&(??)[show,id]\"","&(??)[show,id]"] 22:05:47 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 22:05:48 oops 22:05:53 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:06:36 > "&var.sequence[show,id]"&var.sequence[show,id] 22:06:37 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char' 22:06:37 with actual type... 22:06:50 somehow i don't seem to get this 22:06:55 Sgeo: it's from lens 22:08:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:08:46 > (0$0&) 22:08:47 The operator `Control.Lens.Combinators.&' [infixl 1] of a section 22:08:47 must... 22:12:13 > "&var&(??)join$fun.show.show" &var&(??)join$fun.show.show 22:12:14 Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints: 22:12:14 (GHC.Show.Show a0) 22:12:14 ... 22:15:59 > (0$0=<<) 22:16:00 The operator `Control.Monad.=<<' [infixr 1] of a section 22:16:00 must have low... 22:16:05 > (0$0>>=) 22:16:06 The operator `GHC.Base.>>=' [infixl 1] of a section 22:16:06 must have lower pr... 22:17:27 > (0$0??) 22:17:29 The operator `Control.Lens.Combinators.??' [infixl 1] of a section 22:17:29 mus... 22:21:40 -!- momech has joined. 22:24:31 > "& fun.show <*> expr & expr" & fun.show <*> expr & expr 22:24:32 Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]' 22:24:32 with actual ty... 22:24:57 > (0$0<*>) 22:24:58 The operator `Control.Applicative.<*>' [infixl 4] of a section 22:24:58 must ha... 22:25:25 > "& fun.show <*> expr & expr" & fun.show <*> expr 22:25:26 Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]' 22:25:26 with actual ty... 22:25:36 > fun.show <*> expr 22:25:38 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show 22:25:38 (Debug.SimpleReflect.Exp... 22:25:42 :t fun.show <*> expr 22:25:43 FromExpr b => Expr -> b 22:25:58 doh 22:26:26 > "& fun.show <*> var & expr" & fun.show <*> var & expr 22:26:28 "& fun.show <*> var & expr" & fun.show <*> var & expr 22:28:03 there you go. 22:28:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:39:03 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:39:08 -!- DH____ has joined. 22:42:59 -!- momech has left (":wq"). 22:43:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:53:11 -!- nooga has joined. 23:02:19 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 23:45:12 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:47:55 03:32:25 elliott: narcolepsy is not that fun 23:48:00 Fiora: it sounds convenient! 23:48:13 it really isn't 23:48:31 well at least it couldn't make my sleep schedule any worse :P 23:48:55 There are headphones that adjust volume to prevent hearing loss, right? 23:49:27 not on meds: feeling really tired all day, having trouble focusing and thinking well, falling asleep for random time periods in the evening, totally throwing my sleep schedule off, and making me end up awake at 12 AM to 5 AM which is... when none of my friends are awake and then it's all lonely 23:49:55 Make differently-scheduled friends. 23:50:04 ok narcolepsy probably wouldn't be an improvement 23:50:14 on meds: hyperfocused, even more anxiety than usual, nervousness 23:50:14 but my sleep schedule is roughly that bad to start with 23:50:42 how about a special kind of narcolepsy where it only makes you go to sleep when you should be sleeping, i could go for that 23:51:02 hi elliott 23:51:17 (to be fair I'm not sure which I'd prefer, not being able to sleep is pretty awful too) 23:51:33 did you see my Inv isomorphisms thingy; if so: was it really related to lenses somehow 23:51:36 and it's easy to emulate: try to nap around 5 hours after taking meds <.< 23:52:10 elliott, I can confirm that it is possible to fix sleep cycles 23:52:18 My current sleep cycle is quite good 23:52:47 in college sgeo only got irrational time intervals of sleep. very unpleasant 23:52:55 i could probably fix mine with enough dedication and willpower but the problem is that i am by far the most productive when i should be sleeping 23:53:01 so it is kind of bad either way :( 23:53:23 elliott, lose a few days of productivity so that you can be productive when you shouldn't be sleeping 23:53:23 s/dedication/medication/ 23:53:26 good typo 23:53:47 it is quiet at night 23:54:09 noise and distractions are a things that happens mostly when others are awake 23:54:11 Sgeo: in my experience I am pretty much only ever motivated to/good at programming late at night 23:54:17 I guess I could wake up really early 23:54:22 s/ a / / 23:54:24 are you judging the programming late at night also 23:54:43 Bike: what are you implying!!! 23:54:47 also did you learn Haskell yet 23:54:57 g'elliott 23:55:14 i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things 23:55:15 I'm slowly recovering from my lackofsleeping. 23:55:17 @hoogle zipWithin 23:55:17 No results found 23:55:25 @hayoo needs to be a command 23:55:25 Unknown command, try @list 23:55:33 or more concretely: i'm curious how cases where one of the cases is an object instead of a constructor pattern works 23:55:34 Bike: Types are a lie. 23:55:48 does it get lifted to a typeish thing 23:55:53 Bike: what do you mean by object? 23:56:19 Just like the basic case n of {0 -> 1; n -> n * fact (n - 1)} 23:56:32 (I'm assuming Integer isn't actually defined as blablapeano) 23:56:42 Pretend that numbers are constructors 23:56:43 Which part of that is the object? 23:56:48 The zero. 23:57:01 Oh. 23:57:05 object is a bad word for that 23:57:10 Pattern-matching on numbers is just a special case. 23:57:11 it seems like you're saying what if it's a "primitive type" 23:57:15 It gets turned into == 23:57:15 in this case it just becomes 23:57:21 if n == 0 then 1 else n * fact (n - 1) 23:57:28 (Except it gets turned into something else with GHC and Ints.) 23:57:31 which is about number literals yeah 23:57:42 same for something like Char or whatever I guess 23:58:04 note that that "case n" works even if n is a peano numeral or whatever! 23:58:07 as long as you have a Num instance 23:58:10 and an Eq instance 23:58:12 But it works for case x of {[4] -> [5]; x:xs -> xs} too, I mean. 23:58:20 Char is not overloaded so its definition doesn't need to mention (==) 23:58:32 Bike: Yes, because you're pattern-matching on a list and then on a number. 23:58:45 And we've already said what pattern-matching on a number is like. 23:58:45 Or some thing not involving typeclasses not that that's probably actually relevant 23:58:59 Bike: data [a] = [] | a : [a] 23:59:04 data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a) 23:59:11 the constructors have a funky name but that's really all they are 23:59:16 [1,2,3] is just sugar for 1:2:3:[] 23:59:25 Language primitives that have special-cased expression syntax -- like lists, numbers, Char, String, ... -- usually also have special-case number syntax. 23:59:26 Ok, but so you can match on literals? 23:59:34 That's just how it is. 23:59:48 This is only sugar, though; for the most part ADTs are what counts. 23:59:49 Bike: data Foo = Bar Int String 23:59:57 case x of {Bar n xs -> ...} 2013-03-08: 00:00:06 no difference between that and matching on lists really 00:00:35 elliott: Except lists have a magic syntax. 00:00:39 And you can do that recursively, like case x of {Bar 0 xs -> ...; Bar n xs -> ...} works. Right? 00:00:47 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:00:48 [x] meaning (x:[]), and so on. 00:01:04 Bike: that's not really recursively, but yes 00:01:10 oh you mean the 0 inside the n 00:01:13 elliott: Well, the definition of pattern matching is recursive. 00:01:15 Bike: well you know how expressions are made out of more expressions 00:01:19 yeah, i'm just thinking of the definition 00:01:25 like if you write Bar 123 "abc" that's because in (Bar x y) x and y are expressions 00:01:26 data Foo = Bar Int String 00:01:33 patterns are just like expressions in that manner 00:01:34 "pattern = literal | constructor patterns" or some shit 00:01:36 When you match on (Bar x y), x and y are also patterns. 00:01:50 pat = variable | literal | constructor_name pat ... 00:01:52 Bike: Or variables, or a bunch of other things. 00:02:03 exp = variable | literal | constructor_name exp ... | exp exp (function application) 00:02:06 and so on 00:02:17 ais523: i sense your correspondent is overly optimistic :P http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/19kjr5/fizzbuzz_revisited_using_rust/c8qx721?context=3 00:02:34 oerjan: I downloaded a copy just in case :) 00:04:22 shachaf: What is there besides variables 00:04:24 *? 00:04:30 `addquote also did you learn Haskell yet i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things 00:04:33 980) also did you learn Haskell yet i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things 00:04:51 Bike: @ patterns 00:04:54 Uh, other things. 00:05:06 i'm only actually as far as comprehensions in lyah by the way, i just got bored about learning how to deal with linked lists for the seventh time 00:05:17 http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch3.html#x8-580003.17 00:06:01 > [3 | 3 <- [3,1,2,3,1]] 00:06:04 [3,3] 00:06:15 irrefutable patterns were those things y'all were mucking about with a few days ago, eh 00:06:29 ^ i recently realized how this is a valid list comprehension because of how pattern matching works. it was enlightening 00:08:41 I'm going to have a hard time thinking of "linear" as linear logic and not linear operators, and also what nooodl_ did there which i'm sure is extremely important 00:08:57 it's not extremely important 00:09:03 maybe this is a better example of how pattern matching in list comprehensions works: 00:09:05 What! 00:09:07 > [x | (0,x) <- [(0,1),(1,2),(0,3),(1,4)]] 00:09:07 it matches every element of the list against 3, if it fails the pattern doesn't match 00:09:08 [1,3] 00:09:10 the end 00:09:14 (and it "skips it") 00:09:19 Oh. That's kind of weird. 00:09:36 > let [x1,x2,x3]@(_:test) = [1,2,3] in (x1,x2,x3,test) 00:09:38 :1:15: parse error on input `@' 00:09:38 hooray, fail! 00:09:41 > ["hello" ++ x | Just x <- [Nothing, Nothing, Just "hi", Just "bye", Nothnig]] 00:09:43 Not in scope: data constructor `Nothnig' 00:09:43 Perhaps you meant `Nothing' (impo... 00:09:46 > ["hello" ++ x | Just x <- [Nothing, Nothing, Just "hi", Just "bye", Nothing]] 00:09:48 bah @ takes only a variable to the left 00:09:49 ["hellohi","hellobye"] 00:09:50 fail "the best function" 00:09:54 oerjan: Ridiculous, eh? 00:10:17 shachaf: it is once you think about it, but i guess it doesn't come up much. 00:10:20 oerjan: I think ski thinks it should take an expression to the left 00:10:27 Should I ask how exception handlin works now or put it off hmmmmmmmmmm put it off 00:10:30 or something 00:10:37 Bike: there's no exceptions here 00:10:42 at all 00:10:50 er? 00:11:25 ? 00:11:32 no exceptions where 00:11:47 An expression? 00:12:07 elliott: fail is totally "throw an exception", man. 00:12:13 FSVO "exception" 00:12:20 "exception" can mean pretty much anything in Haskell. 00:12:39 foo :: Maybe Int -- foo either computes an Int or throws an exception 00:12:39 lyah is going to tell me that this is not at all like your c++ man!! isn't it 00:12:57 elliott: an expression, how would that work? 00:13:00 right monads 00:13:11 "In the first versions of Haskell, the comprehension syntax was available for all monads." 00:13:14 that sounds neat 00:13:34 nooodl_: It's back in GHC! 00:13:34 (it's on the wiki page for "List comprehension") 00:13:35 > let x1:test@[x2,x3] = [1,2,3] in (x1,x2,x3,test) -- it can be rewritten anyhow 00:13:36 (1,2,3,[2,3]) 00:13:37 oerjan: I forget, maybe I was wrong 00:13:38 -XMonadComprehensions 00:14:12 shachaf: are they useful, though 00:14:24 Bike: what is it with nerds and language wars 00:14:48 > [x | x <- Just "test"] 00:14:50 Couldn't match expected type `[t0]' 00:14:50 with actual type `Data.May... 00:15:00 I don't know. It's kind of boring. But also probably why I'm nominally learning Haskell. 00:15:01 not turned on in lambdabot :( 00:15:02 imo English is the worst 00:15:24 wanna wrestle on the floor about it 00:15:26 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:15:41 haha. 00:15:44 how many millions of programmer-hours have been wasted debating C vs C++ <.< 00:15:46 What are irrefutable patterns for? 00:15:58 Laziness. 00:16:17 Well, there are two "different" cases here. 00:16:25 The case where you have a sum type and the case where you don't. 00:17:19 i choose the middle ground: C+ 00:17:49 microtones? i like microtones. 00:17:51 kmc, you need to study harder! you won't get into a good college with grades like those! 00:18:19 kmc, I'm tempted to ask you how you think I did on my technical pre-screening thing 00:18:20 * Bike looks for half-sharp in unicode 00:18:45 "somewhat sharp"? 00:19:12 It's halfway between natural and sharp. It comes up in tuning systems that aren't 12-TET. 00:19:27 Sgeo: how would I know? 00:19:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabic_music_notation_half_sharp.svg You're failing me, Unicode. 00:19:31 They should make "S Sharp" and spell it ß. 00:19:41 kmc, because I can link you to the questions and my responses 00:19:54 shaßaf 00:19:55 Bike: 1D12A MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP [𝄪] 00:20:00 Close enough? 00:20:09 The sharp envelope paradox. 00:20:09 1/𝄪 00:20:15 probably won't have time right now 00:20:18 also: you know about how H is used in German muzik right 00:20:27 F# A# ∞ 00:20:41 good album (except you used the wrong characters!!!!!) 00:20:44 i know :( 00:20:48 Oh, ok 00:20:52 F♯ A♯ ∞ ? 00:21:00 maybe 00:21:16 F≠ 00:21:23 C≠, rather 00:22:11 life tip talk about other gybe albums to avoid having to type the fucking thing otu 00:22:23 this life tip comes at the low low cost of free 00:23:09 I don't think I can remember any of the other album titles. I just kind of string together some words involving explosions or fire or death or just sort of making a low droning sound with my mouth, and figure that's close enough. 00:30:39 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 00:30:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (*.net *.split). 00:30:39 -!- Fiora has quit (*.net *.split). 00:30:39 elliott: that may be a life tip but would you call it a 'life hack' 00:30:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:30:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:30:40 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:30:42 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 00:30:45 -!- quintopia has joined. 00:30:45 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 00:30:46 -!- quintopia has joined. 00:30:53 -!- elliott_ has joined. 00:30:53 kmc: life hack: call all your life hacks life tips 00:30:53 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 00:31:06 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 00:31:23 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest79759. 00:31:30 That haskell.org page has the example of "(\ ~[x] -> x) [] ⇒ ⊥". Is it defined what that divergence means? Could an implementation just loop forever instead of coming back to tell me I'm an idiot? 00:31:37 -!- Guest79759 has quit (Client Quit). 00:31:47 -!- elliott_ has joined. 00:32:01 Bike: Yes. 00:32:09 Ok. 00:32:14 To the second question, that is. 00:32:20 right. 00:32:36 It's defined in such a way that looping forever and coming backt to tell you you're an idiot are considered equivalent. 00:32:49 Note that in GHC this isn't true, since it lets you "catch" these things. 00:33:11 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 00:33:13 Oh, I see... if x is an expression with undefined behavior and y is non-strict than y x can have a defined result. 00:33:20 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:33:21 then? eh 00:33:38 By "undefined behavior" do you mean the C sense or the "behaves like undefined" sense. 00:33:45 the former 00:33:52 s/B/b/ s/.$// 00:34:02 The former. 00:34:28 I don't think a failed pattern match is undefined behavior in that sense? 00:34:40 But I might be wrong. I don't really know anything. 00:34:49 It's defined to diverge and that's it, apparently? 00:39:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:39:14 -!- Fiora has joined. 00:39:14 -!- HackEgo has joined. 00:39:14 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:41:11 Bike: a _refutable_ pattern match doesn't diverge if it fails, mind you, as long as there are further alternative patterns to try 00:41:26 Yes. 00:41:35 Wouldn't be very good pattern matching if it only tried once.. 00:42:33 but otherwise, divergence is essentially just another synonym for what we haskellers call "undefined" and "bottom". the haskell language report doesn't bother to distinguish different "program crashing" failure modes. 00:43:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:43:31 although ghc's exception mechanism is based on someone writing a paper making just such extra distinctions. 00:43:43 -!- WeThePeople has joined. 00:44:30 (although one that sometimes gives a nondeterministic result) 00:44:41 *ones 00:44:48 *give 00:49:07 yeah... denotationally, an expression's meaning is either a value or a /set/ of possible exceptions 00:49:36 and the 'catch' operator picks one of those nondeterministically 00:49:48 but that's fine because you only get it as the result of an IO action, and those are allowed to be nondeterministic 00:50:28 This catch thing isn't standard Haskell? 00:50:50 @hoogle catch 00:50:50 Prelude catch :: IO a -> (IOError -> IO a) -> IO a 00:50:50 System.IO.Error catch :: IO a -> (IOError -> IO a) -> IO a 00:50:50 Control.OldException catch :: IO a -> (Exception -> IO a) -> IO a 00:50:54 iirc standard Haskell has only a really primitive exception mechanism for IOErrors 00:51:06 no way to catch an exception thrown by pure evaluation, e.g. error / undefined 00:51:10 @hoogle+ 00:51:10 Control.Exception.Base catch :: Exception e => IO a -> (e -> IO a) -> IO a 00:51:11 Control.Exception catch :: Exception e => IO a -> (e -> IO a) -> IO a 00:51:11 Control.OldException catchDyn :: Typeable exception => IO a -> (exception -> IO a) -> IO a 00:51:13 nor divide by zero, etc 00:51:24 good thing ghc is so huge then i guess 00:51:29 i know, right 00:51:57 I seem to remember standard ML having some decent exceptions stuff but I forgot. 00:52:03 GHC also does asynchronous exceptions -- one thread can cause another thread to throw an exception wherever it's currently executing 00:52:12 which causes additional problems 00:52:38 oh man, awesome. 00:52:54 Oh on that note, are threads standard? 00:52:56 to avoid race conditions when setting up exn handlers, GHC lets you temporarly suspend / unsuspend processing of async exns 00:52:59 no 00:53:14 async exns also include things like stack / heap overflow 00:53:19 Concurrent Haskell is standard-ish, but it's not part of the report. 00:54:07 I had the vague idea that concurrent haskell involved concurrency mechanisms less wacked out then threads 00:54:26 Why are threads wacked out? 00:54:43 everyone complains about 'em 00:55:13 that's because they suck in other languages 00:55:30 GHC has put a /lot/ of effort into making threads that don't suck 00:55:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:55:34 and history will pass it by for it 00:55:40 because Everyone Knows that threads suck 00:55:40 u bitter 00:55:45 Bike: just a little 00:56:00 shared memory multiprocessing is sort of a lie though 00:56:01 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:56:09 unclear this abstraction remains useful 00:56:37 when your "shared memory" is actually a cache coherence protocol implemented between multiple processors and NUMA domains 00:56:44 our machines are really distributed systems 00:57:16 so maybe it's best to use a one-process-per-core model, and then it's easier to scale up past 1 machine as well 00:57:56 I should probably make a bit clearer (like it's not) than I know jack all about concurrency, I just heard that threads aren't the best model. 00:58:50 sometimes you just want parallel evaluation, not concurrent semantics, and GHC has something else for that 00:58:53 but it's finicky 00:58:54 What is a "thread"? 00:59:07 a thread of execution? 00:59:17 A thread of execution of execution? 00:59:22 Is it an OS level thread, which has a lot of baggage associated with it? Is it a conceptual separate execution? 00:59:24 yes exactly 00:59:29 i just mean generally 00:59:37 as opposed to i don't know, mapreducey primitives 00:59:42 connection machine hilarity 00:59:54 Are the people saying that threads suck speaking in general or with a view of OS threads? 01:00:06 both 01:00:10 in general probably, as a conceptual thing 01:00:12 everyone all the time is saying wrong things 01:00:12 Isn't map-reduce more about parallelism? 01:00:13 everywhere 01:00:15 including me 01:00:32 ♫ 01:00:41 see, i don't even remember what parallelism versus concurrency means (everybody saying wrong things more like me saying wrong things) 01:00:58 people argue about those words too 01:01:05 but according to GHC devs at least 01:01:08 concurrency is semantics 01:01:21 parallelism is implementation detail 01:01:34 you can have parallel evaluation of expressions without any change in semantics 01:01:43 mapreduce seems pretty semantic to me... 01:01:52 and you can have concurrent semantics without truly executing stuff at the same time 01:01:57 And you can have semantic concurrency on a single-core machine 01:02:00 yes 01:02:06 Bike: there is parallel haskell stuff thingy 01:02:09 which is higher-level 01:02:13 bbl tho 01:02:14 but for "different stuff" 01:02:17 oh boy levels 01:03:28 Bike: If you have a mapreducey thing you can execute it all sequentially or in parallel for speed. 01:03:32 i'm blown away by how fucking tired i am 01:03:34 You get the same results either way. 01:04:25 hm... 01:04:32 elliott: uh i told you to sleep? way to drop the ball. 01:04:43 that was yesterday Bike 01:04:47 i'm a new man 01:04:55 elliott: go to sleep 01:05:09 @localtime elliott 01:05:11 Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 8 01:05:10 2013 01:05:57 @localtime HackEgo 01:06:03 Didn't we already have a talk about privacy? 01:06:11 And by we I mean you and elliott, I wasn't paying attention 01:09:41 I love how Lojban has multiple words for 'we' 01:09:47 One that includes 'you' and one that doesn't 01:09:47 iirc 01:10:03 i don't think lojban is the only language that makes that distinction? 01:10:11 You enter the sauna. After several hours, you come out a changed man.[Your score just went up by 25 points, for a total of 250.] You have with you a changed plant. 01:10:50 Bike, I'm not a linguist :/ 01:12:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_and_exclusive_we there we go. 01:12:28 Clusivity. Awesome. 01:16:10 -!- monqy has joined. 01:21:27 It bothers me a little that with Applicatives, there are a lot of functions with same or similar types that do different things 01:22:58 elliott, didn't you tell me that <**> isn't just flip (<*>)? 01:23:05 Docs say "A variant of '<*>' with the arguments reversed." 01:24:02 > [1, 2, 3] <|> [4,5,6] 01:24:04 [1,2,3,4,5,6] 01:24:11 > some [1,2] 01:24:15 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 01:24:19 > many [1,2] 01:24:23 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 01:24:36 :t (<|>) 01:24:37 > optional [1,2] 01:24:37 Alternative f => f a -> f a -> f a 01:24:39 [Just 1,Just 2,Nothing] 01:24:55 @src Alternative 01:24:55 class Applicative f => Alternative f where 01:24:55 empty :: f a 01:24:55 (<|>) :: f a -> f a -> f a 01:26:01 Sgeo: ordering 01:26:09 p <**> q runs p then q 01:26:20 q <*> p runs q then p 01:26:36 Docs should be fixed 01:26:43 To make that clear 01:27:25 send a patch 01:29:55 Should I read Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours? 01:31:11 don't you already know haskell and scheme 01:33:47 it's entirely possible 01:44:52 Bike: are you spj yet 01:45:17 I had a waking nightmare last night where the darkness of my room only resolved as slowly shrinking hexagons. 01:47:57 is that about Super Hexagon 01:48:07 i tried it and it seemed pointless? 01:48:52 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:49:59 Bike 01:50:26 what 01:52:29 I think <* is sexy and imperative programmers might like it 01:52:49 Although I guess Lispers tend to already have something like it 01:53:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:53:08 Do you mean <*> or is there also an operator called <* for some godforsaken reason 01:53:14 the latter 01:53:29 it has the same type as flip (*>) but behaves differently 01:53:37 :t (<*) 01:53:38 Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f a 01:53:42 are you jokin 01:53:47 Wait, I'm wrong. 01:53:53 :t (*>) 01:53:55 Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f b 01:54:09 No, I'm right. 01:54:12 shachaf, yeah, you were wrong. About being WRONG 01:54:33 IT'S A DIFFERENT TYPE IF YOU DON'T COUNT ALPHA-RENAMING 01:55:05 @src Applicative 01:55:05 class Functor f => Applicative f where 01:55:05 pure :: a -> f a 01:55:05 (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 01:56:00 Bike: other operators that exist: <$> <$ >> <> >>> <<< <**> 01:56:09 help 01:56:18 :t ($>) 01:56:19 Not in scope: `$>' 01:56:19 Perhaps you meant one of these: 01:56:19 `$' (imported from Data.Function), `$!' (imported from Prelude), 01:56:22 bullshit 01:56:25 << does not exist, partly because no one agrees on whether it should behave like (*>) or like flip (<*) 01:56:41 Er, switch those. 01:56:43 (<$) exists in Control.Comonad but not in base 01:56:46 can't it just be shift WHAT ABOUT THE GOOD OLD DAYS MAN 01:58:36 <* is kind of like prog1 01:59:33 > 4 <* 5 -- somehow i doubt this is going to work 01:59:34 Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (f b0)) 01:59:34 arising from the ambiguity check f... 01:59:39 rite 01:59:46 you could give an instance that made that work 01:59:46 > "Bike" <* "hi" 01:59:48 "BBiikkee" 01:59:50 :t (<$) 01:59:51 Functor f => a -> f b -> f a 02:00:04 > (0$0<$) 02:00:05 The operator `GHC.Base.<$' [infixl 4] of a section 02:00:06 must have lower pre... 02:00:07 sgeo i must say that is like no prog1 i've heard of 02:00:22 shachaf: yes it does. 02:00:32 what's a proge1 02:00:35 prog1 hardly seems very haskelly anyway 02:00:50 oerjan: ? 02:00:52 monqy: execute first expression, execute rest of expressions, return first result, the end 02:01:01 Bike: It's like prog1 if it only took two arguments. 02:01:14 And if you extend the idea of "execution" a lot. 02:01:23 (And of "return".) 02:01:24 > "Bike" <* "hello" 02:01:25 "BBBBBiiiiikkkkkeeeee" 02:01:29 Bike: the thing where it's funny with list is because of this "extension" of the idea of "Execution" 02:01:30 This is an exciting extension! 02:01:35 yes. 02:01:40 Bike: It's nondeterminism. 02:01:46 Bike, http://ideone.com/XiY5Sj 02:01:53 Think of it as forking a thread for each letter of "hello"! 02:02:10 Except it's deterministic nondeterminism, so it all comes out nicely interleaved in the end. 02:02:13 monqy: "Execution" 02:02:24 > (,) <$> [1,2,3] <*> [4,5,6] 02:02:25 [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)] 02:02:27 Bike: do you know what this means 02:02:43 Probably not. 02:02:52 :info <* 02:02:53 > [1,2,3] >>= \ x -> [4,5,6] >>= \ y -> return (x,y) 02:02:53 hint: descartes 02:02:54 [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)] 02:02:55 how about this 02:02:56 - my hint 02:03:04 monqy: btw hes only onto the list comprehensions chapter of lyah 02:03:05 I forget, is all this <> weirdness in lens or haskell 02:03:08 :info (<*) 02:03:10 imo we stop talking about applicatives and monads and shit 02:03:13 > [(x,y) | x <- [1,2,3], y <- [4,5,6]] 02:03:15 [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)] 02:03:17 how about that one 02:03:20 yes that's acceptable 02:03:20 because this is kind of ridiculous? 02:03:20 shachaf: <$ is in base. 02:03:21 elliott: i was just about to do the thing shachaf did 02:03:25 elliott: but im slow at the Typing 02:03:29 im not 02:03:30 oerjan: Oh. 02:03:36 Then the other one is in Control.Comonad. 02:03:37 Bike: what's ridiculous is listening to #esoteric about anything 02:03:41 yes. 02:03:44 stpo looking and look at lyah instead 02:03:44 that is the lesson here. 02:03:47 monqy: i had a head start at the Typing 02:03:52 Ah. 02:04:41 uh oh i see "category"!! 02:04:42 imo my nondeterminism hint was helpful "in a maybe nonhelpful kind of way" 02:05:02 it's helpful if you know that sense of what nondeterminism means 02:05:08 right 02:05:17 but maybe it's not so helpful to illustrate it 02:05:43 Not helpful: Overloading Bike with operators 02:05:46 "When writing our own functions, we can choose to give them an explicit type declaration. This is generally considered to be good practice except when writing very short functions." this seems like kind of a weird thing to say after bringing up type inference 02:05:53 there should be an implementation of [] that uses "real nondeterminism" 02:05:55 Bike: not really 02:05:58 type signatures work as documentation 02:06:03 @quote rwbarton infer 02:06:04 No quotes match. :( 02:06:07 !!!!!! 02:06:08 yeah but just 02:06:12 shachaf: lambdabot quotes remember 02:06:16 Bike: you can figure out a lot about what a definition does from the type etc. 02:06:18 "unlike java you don't have to write out types. so anyway, we're going to write out types" 02:06:19 `lastlog rwbarton.*infer 02:06:20 elliott: i know 02:06:21 er 02:06:22 lastlog: unexpected argument: rwbarton.*infer \ Usage: lastlog [options] \ \ Options: \ -b, --before DAYS print only lastlog records older than DAYS \ -h, --help display this help message and exit \ -t, --time DAYS print only lastlog records more recent than DAYS \ -u, --user LOGIN 02:06:23 `pastlog rwbarton.*infer 02:06:31 i hope that works 02:06:55 haskell/12.10.04:21:19:15 type inference is supposed to be the compiler's job, not the reader's job 02:06:57 No output. 02:07:12 good quote thanks rwbarton 02:07:17 TOO LATE HACKEGO 02:07:23 Bike, you don't really write out types with everything 02:07:34 um maybe you don't 02:07:42 god i know 02:07:43 In lets you typically don't 02:07:52 I think 02:07:55 Sgeo: but what about MonoLocalBinds................ 02:07:55 do i 02:08:01 :-) 02:08:08 http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/constraints/let-gen.pdf 02:08:14 i was just commenting on a weird quirk i'm well aware of documentation value and how it's different from java and bla? bla? bla? bla? bla? 02:08:16 shachaf, haven't heard of it 02:08:28 q q q qqq q qqq q q q q q q q q q 02:08:31 q 02:08:32 `welcome Bike 02:08:32 `welcome Bike 02:08:32 q. 02:08:32 `welcome Bike 02:08:37 thats my response 02:08:37 thx 02:08:39 Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:08:39 Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:08:39 Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:08:43 choir of welcomes 02:08:44 response to who 02:08:45 oerjan: imo ask elliott to stop spamming 02:08:50 monqy: bike 02:08:53 ah 02:09:44 the author sure likes comparing haskell to java 02:09:48 An invisible choir sings, and you are bathed in `welcomes... 02:10:30 The voice of Eliot booms out: "Congratulations, mortal!" 02:11:10 Is there something like @src I can use in inferior-haskell? 02:11:17 Bike, yeah. I prefer when better languages are compared with better languages 02:11:35 Bike: Not really. :-( 02:11:40 Oh well. 02:11:50 inferior-haskell? Is that what you get when you compare Haskell with @? 02:11:55 "Why should I use this instead of Java?" is pretty much a joke, "Why should I use this instead of Haskell or Lisp or Smalltalk?" or something is far more interesting 02:12:09 Sgeo: No, it's still pretty much a joke. 02:12:12 Don't make me defend Java dude. I'll do it. I'll jump. 02:12:24 @src Ord -- anyway 02:12:24 Source not found. 02:12:25 the joke is people come into #haskell and ask that question and then there's a long pointless discussion 02:12:28 @src Ord 02:12:28 class (Eq a) => Ord a where 02:12:28 compare :: a -> a -> Ordering 02:12:28 (<), (<=), (>), (>=) :: a -> a -> Bool 02:12:28 max, min :: a -> a -> a 02:12:42 shachaf: so, like every other channel on freenode then 02:13:00 I'm guessing < and pals have a default definition in terms of compare? 02:13:06 Yep. 02:13:18 And compare has a default definition in terms of all of them simultaneously 02:13:22 Actually, just in terms of (<=) 02:13:24 whoa 02:13:26 oh. 02:13:47 btw (a -> a -> Ordering) is a monoid 02:13:57 lots of things are monoids 02:14:03 The fun part though is that there's no static checking whether you've satisfied the minimum needed :( 02:14:10 How does only partially defining an instance work? Like how will it no that defining an instance of well, oh, thanks Sgeo. 02:14:13 Sgeo: The fun part is that there's a feature request for that! 02:14:18 Which SPJ approves of! 02:14:28 Just needs someone (ie you) to implement it 02:14:36 shachaf: is that just pointwise multiplication on pointwise multiplication on Ordering? 02:14:53 or something special 02:14:56 monqy: Yes. 02:15:02 proof irrelevance, monqy 02:15:07 all he said is it's a monoid 02:15:10 you don't get to find out which one 02:15:21 Bike, pretty much just writing out the default definitions in terms of each other, and if there is no real implementation, it infinite loops 02:15:27 > sortBy (comparing length ++ compare) $ words "here are some words for monqy to show off how nice that 'unspecial' monoid instance is" 02:15:30 ["is","to","are","for","how","off","here","nice","show","some","that","monq... 02:15:45 Well that sucks. 02:15:52 agreed 02:15:54 well i know all about Ordering's instance and how nice pointwise stuff is 02:16:00 ok then 02:16:15 pointwise instances suck imo 02:16:37 pointwise? 02:16:40 read "True" isn't constrained enough. What source or whatever do I look at to figure out why? 02:16:42 i never said pointwise instances are nice!!!! just that pointwise ~stuff~ is nice....im undecided on pointwise instances 02:16:51 Bike: read :: Read a => String -> a 02:16:56 read "True" :: Bool 02:16:59 Bike, you need to tell it the type to give back to you 02:17:04 No I know. 02:17:09 I want to know what the ambiguity is between. 02:17:10 well what d oyou mean by: figure out why 02:17:14 it's not "between" 02:17:19 as in even if you only had one Read instance it'd still give you that 02:17:22 (open world assumption) 02:17:39 so read anything without constraints is ambiguous? 02:17:45 imo the clopen world assumption is better 02:17:49 Bike, yes 02:17:52 kay. 02:17:55 > read "12345" 02:17:57 *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 02:17:59 Well, it's polymorphic. 02:18:00 um. 02:18:09 Ambiguous if you don't use it in a polymorphic context. 02:18:12 something something default something something 02:18:17 probably it tried to read a unit 02:18:24 > read "()" 02:18:25 > read "()" 02:18:26 () 02:18:27 () 02:18:27 how do you catch a unit 02:18:41 Answer: unit up on it 02:19:43 I think it's far safer than having the type become known only at runtime 02:19:52 *cough* recent RoR vulnerabilities *cough* 02:20:22 ?? 02:20:32 ruby on rails 02:20:32 also Sgeo: defining something "pointwise" means "something like"(im not going to bothere explaing it in full generality or formal gosh) (f + g)(x) := f(x) + g(x) 02:20:38 hopefully you "get the idea" 02:20:54 then you have addition on functions "point wise" 02:20:56 there was some thing about yaml doing weird things because weirdness 02:21:22 ?? ?? 02:21:23 you'll also see it on tuples a lot!!! (x, y) + (a, b) := (x + a, y + b) 02:21:26 ?? ?? ?where quonochrom 02:21:27 monochrom says: Ask Coq. Don't rely on head. 02:21:30 ?? ?? ?where quonochrom 02:21:31 monochrom says: There are truths, damn truths, and Kripke structures. 02:21:40 hilarity 02:21:53 ?? ?? ?where quonochrom 02:21:54 monochrom says: If you read a haskell book or an FP book, by chapter 5 it's already doing data structures. It's chapter 10 in imperative books. 02:21:55 monqy: um tuples are just functions 02:22:00 enough 02:22:02 from finite sets!! 02:22:05 sorry i mean 02:22:06 finite types 02:22:14 don't you mean morphisms something something 02:22:33 elliott: yes but does sgeo know that 02:22:38 imo tuples are just limits of diagrams with no morphisms 02:22:44 shachaf: :-) 02:22:45 There you go. 02:22:57 monqy: imo yes 02:23:10 but he didnt even know what "pointwise" means 02:23:11 oh no is monqy disapproving again 02:23:11 [x,y..z] = enumFromThenTo x y z, right? 02:23:20 Bike: Yes. 02:23:38 I,I enumFromThenToElseTo 02:24:07 * Sgeo googles 02:24:17 Wait, is pointwise just the antonym of pointfree? 02:24:23 um 02:24:31 Can I get a list of instances of a typeclass? 02:24:36 wait should i have specified finite diagrams 02:24:38 Bike: :info Class 02:24:38 Bike: :i in ghci 02:24:41 rad 02:24:50 i,i :i,i 02:24:54 gosh that's a lot of instances 02:25:01 * shachaf vanishes 02:25:02 um I kind of tuned out of your attempted explanation 02:25:05 damn look at all these tuples 02:25:11 "-- point-wise, and point-free member" 02:25:14 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree 02:25:15 Sgeo: just read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointwise uuuuuurgh 02:25:25 i havent even looked at its contents 02:25:26 just read it 02:25:37 its better than groping around or whatever the hell youre doingg now 02:25:37 ok 02:25:52 ok 02:25:55 if i do :i some class am I going to get a shitload of tuples every time 02:26:05 only for the "common classes" 02:26:09 * shachaf really vanishes 02:26:17 So pointwise addition is just addition lifted into the Reader monad? 02:26:28 :☺) 02:27:05 I shall take that as a yes 02:27:17 aight why is (4,5,6,7) < (9,6,3,0) 02:27:37 Because 4 < 9 02:27:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:28:14 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:28:33 Bike: because seven ate nine 02:28:40 Although, I guess it's somewhat meaningless semantically.... if Ord a => Complex a doesn't get an Ord instance even though one can be defined, why should tuples? 02:28:42 oh 02:28:56 What, why would you define an ordering on complex 02:29:04 Bike, so you can put them in Maps 02:29:10 (as keys) 02:29:25 indexing a map by a value with floating point sounds like the superest idea 02:29:38 Complex Int is not floating point 02:29:56 i love gaussian integers 02:30:52 Why does Num have Show but not Read? 02:31:18 it doesn't have Show or Eq now 02:31:19 Wait, is pointwise just the antonym of pointfree? <-- i learned about "pointwise" in math long before learning haskell. 02:31:20 they got removed rip 02:31:50 noooo i'm so out of date 02:32:43 Sgeo: Complex Int is not Num either, alas 02:33:09 all because of pesky abs 02:33:11 :t abs 02:33:12 Num a => a -> a 02:33:22 Num is gross and ugly 02:33:31 i cant stop reading pesky abs as meaning the other kind of abs 02:33:33 help 02:33:50 elliott: just do some workout and get some pesky abs yourself 02:33:58 * oerjan has none, anyway 02:34:50 who needs abs, bodies are for losers 02:36:54 monqy: r u uploaded into the information super highway cyberspace 02:37:00 integated into the system 02:37:04 integated, good word 02:37:19 abs or fabs 02:42:50 I'm not sure how a better Num would work really. Maybe you could define something "nicer" if you're really pedantic and make it subsets of complexes but then there go floats. 02:43:08 something something abstract algebra 02:43:18 abstract algebra is kind of awful with typeclasses 02:43:21 learning something from those dang mathematicians 02:43:29 elliott: maybe typeclasses could learn a thing or 2 02:43:37 something something monoids "not so easy after all" 02:43:39 i dont think num is all that bad for haskells constraints 02:43:45 though it should get split up a lil 02:45:07 monqy: But then you'd have like Field except integers don't form a field except mod something they do and stuff 02:45:23 well who said you'd start with fields 02:46:40 There may be a case to be made that the current typeclass system is just broken 02:46:53 how would you make that case exactly 02:47:17 plus you'd have like... class Ring etc etc i don't know haskell inverse :: a => Maybe a? 02:47:20 demonstrate that they make monoids not easy 02:47:32 why would you need inverse in the ring class 02:47:32 Noting how often it is sometimes useful to implement only some of a functions in a class, and how difficult it is to split off such classes in a backwards compatible manner 02:47:49 You don't need it, but I'm sure somebody would want it. 02:48:08 make a new class for it then? like Ring a => Field a 02:48:17 or divisionring 02:48:18 or 02:48:25 "skewfield" that's a cute name for the same thing 02:48:27 I mean, inverses on rings where not everything has an inverse 02:48:38 RingWhereSometimesThingsHaveInverses 02:48:52 brilliant 02:49:34 Onion rings 02:49:44 Bike: clearly tho youd just put a Group constraint on the underlying multiplicative monoid 02:49:59 for Field 02:50:08 for when sometimes you have inverses uhh 02:50:13 i guess idk what youd do 02:50:16 make anew class 02:50:19 i think maybe with constraintkinds and stuff we have enough machinery to do abstract algebra classes properly 02:50:23 but i sure wouldnt replace num with it 02:50:52 num is kind of heck but i typically ignore it 02:51:00 obviously the type system is inadequate if i can't express the type of analytic functions. fix this thanks 02:53:17 "I think that's there for historical reasons or something, although in my opinion, it's pretty stupid" btw elliott i've decided my earlier stated dislike of lyah was wrong 02:53:59 whats that sentence aboout 02:54:10 monqy: That's useful when you want integral and floating point types to work together nicely. For instance, the length function has a type declaration of length :: [a] -> Int instead of having a more general type of (Num b) => length :: [a] -> b. I think that's there for historical reasons or something, although in my opinion, it's pretty stupid. 02:54:15 kind of wrong tho 02:54:21 but not wrong enough for me to bother complaining about it 02:54:40 Oh, what's wrong about it? 02:55:16 something about Integral right 02:55:22 :t generalizedLength 02:55:23 Not in scope: `generalizedLength' 02:55:26 whatever it is 02:55:37 :t genericLength 02:55:39 Num i => [b] -> i 02:55:42 oh that's Num? 02:55:43 huh 02:55:45 weid 02:56:01 oh that's length not Take or anything 02:56:03 :t genericTake 02:56:03 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:56:04 Integral i => i -> [a] -> [a] 02:56:09 yeah that's integral 02:56:18 ok im at peace 02:56:35 > genericLength ["lol","ol","ol"] :: Float 02:56:37 3.0 02:56:41 cool 02:57:04 @src genericTake 02:57:04 Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing 02:57:08 huh, so I don't need a million parens whenever I use :: ? 02:57:09 why does it need integral i wonder 02:57:26 elliott, I hope that's sarcasm? 02:57:31 elliott: well maybe it doesnt "need" integral but would it make sense without it 02:57:42 Sgeo: why would it be 02:57:48 take (sqrt (-1)) 02:57:50 elliott, how do you take 1.5 of something? 02:58:03 interpolation! 02:58:05 i dont think you understand what im saying 02:58:13 monqy: looks like it doesn't use any Integral methods at all :/ 02:58:19 don't really like the gratuitous constraint 02:58:22 elliott: thats what i mean by "need" 02:58:44 sure 02:58:47 just confirming & complaining 02:58:51 con{firm,plain}ing 02:59:10 Oh, it would effectively round down 02:59:10 > length (take (toInteger (maxBound :: Int) + 1) (repeat "cut")) 02:59:12 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int' 02:59:12 with actual type ... 02:59:17 :'( 02:59:27 bike take doesnt take an integer 02:59:28 :t take 02:59:30 Int -> [a] -> [a] 02:59:33 drop doesnt drop an integer too 8-) 02:59:40 ;_; 02:59:47 I laffed 02:59:58 ??? 03:00:19 so how do i get the first [pointlessly large number] of elements from a list! 03:00:31 genericTake 03:00:50 not in scope this is impossible f u haskell 03:00:57 Data.List, Bike 03:00:59 @hoogle genericTake 03:01:00 Data.List genericTake :: Integral i => i -> [a] -> [a] 03:01:04 import Data.List 03:02:01 wait what the hell is import 03:02:15 type at yr repl 03:02:20 :m + Data.List 03:02:23 and think no more about it 03:02:27 Dude, haskell sucks 03:02:29 no i must think 03:02:35 it is my curse 03:02:47 Bike, it imports a module. And :m + Data.List is how to bring in a module at GHCi 03:02:47 Think that it sucks 03:02:52 Rather than source code 03:03:08 oh import's one of those statement dealies isn't it 03:03:11 import works in ghci tho 03:03:23 import is more letters 03:03:36 import is a top level statement 03:03:42 You need to be a top level programmer to use it 03:05:02 you need at least 3 PhDs 03:05:24 What are the PhDs in 03:05:26 No, not that bad 03:05:34 just 2 phds 03:05:35 But you do need qualifications to use qualified imports 03:09:34 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:09:39 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:11:32 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 03:14:41 -!- DH____ has joined. 03:14:50 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:25:43 aw, you need some kind of extension for explicit forall? 03:26:31 well you need an extension for everything 03:26:33 but sure 03:26:39 explicit forall ain't that useful if you're not doing scopedtypevariables stuff 03:26:42 by ain't that useful 03:26:44 i mean ain't useful at all 03:26:46 assuming you mean, not rank-2 03:26:50 which is a whole other can of worms 03:26:53 yeah i just mean the boring ones 03:27:11 i just.... i'd feel better with them there man......... 03:28:09 the bonus is you can use forall as a variable 03:28:14 both type & value 03:28:16 Technically Legal 03:28:22 id :: forall -> forall 03:28:23 That's Cool 03:29:48 You're Cool 03:29:49 8-) 03:30:15 uh i thought i sucked way to flip-flop 03:30:45 how do you know i wasnt using sarcasm either/both times 03:31:10 sarcasm is a rank k type hth 03:31:57 ooh backquoted quotes in strings print with the backquotes! haskell really is a lisp!!! 03:32:24 wait what do you mean 03:33:02 capital "Porqueepsie" => "The first letter of \"Porqueepsie\" is 'P'." 03:33:21 or is that actually just a literal backquote 03:33:24 back...thing 03:33:26 slash 03:33:42 im confused 03:33:44 python does that too? 03:33:48 does it 03:34:00 not here 03:34:10 >>> foo = "'hello" + '"' 03:34:10 >>> foo 03:34:10 '\'hello"' 03:34:11 well close enough 03:35:39 python only does it if you mix _both_ ' and " in a string. otherwise it chooses the outer one as whichever isn't used. 03:36:08 haskell cannot do that since ' and " have different meanings. 03:40:13 Isn't there a Haskell program that's valid both with and without rankntypes but does different things with and without:/ 03:43:09 i recall zzo38 did some nice option-testing combinations 03:45:36 i think those were based on syntax though, so probably tested whether forall was a keyword 03:46:04 hm i'm not sure whether that worked 03:46:18 `pastequotes zzo38>.*forall 03:46:26 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16517 03:46:28 `pastelogs zzo38>.*forall 03:47:08 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31071 03:48:29 -!- monqy has joined. 03:48:44 what's Not? 03:48:45 is elliott asleep 03:49:04 hi 03:49:54 hello 03:50:00 @hoogle Not 03:50:00 Prelude not :: Bool -> Bool 03:50:00 Data.Bool not :: Bool -> Bool 03:50:00 Prelude notElem :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> Bool 03:50:07 Bike: what's Not 03:50:51 2011-11-28.txt:06:52:27: explosion :: (p, Not p) -> q; explosion (x, y) = contradiction $ y x; where contradiction :: forall t. Zero -> t; 03:51:01 ah, zzo 03:51:01 `pastelogs zzo38>.*rank.types 03:51:15 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22827 03:51:22 Bike: Not a = a -> Void 03:51:31 Void aka Zero aka False 03:51:32 monqy: he's been experimenting with logic in haskell types 03:51:39 who, zzo or bike? 03:51:47 not me that's for sure 03:52:00 `pastelogs zzo38>.*haskell.*extension 03:52:02 curry howard is a bit poor in haskell what with everything being inhabited 03:52:14 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30522 03:52:14 also Confession Part Two I thought fmap took a functor as an argument "sorry" 03:52:20 bike.......... 03:52:24 bike.................. 03:52:28 :( 03:52:39 wait im going to do the thing where you use the full version of someones name to disapprove at them 03:52:42 bicycle.............................. 03:52:47 uh excuse me 03:52:49 -!- Bike has changed nick to Bicyclidine. 03:52:53 no 03:52:54 fuck you 03:53:00 thats like 03:53:01 imo fuck you 03:53:19 dave -> david -> davidiens 03:53:21 im going to do to the thing where i munge someones name(i dont actually do this but some people do): bicyclyde 03:53:23 do you really want to be davidiens bike 03:53:35 Can I be a Circumcellion? 03:53:35 monqy: ooh we could call bike clyde 03:53:44 that,d be a good nickname 03:53:45 biquaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay 03:53:50 Sgeo: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-09-02.txt is where it was previously discussed 03:54:19 monqy: does Void not exist in haskell because everything's inhabited or 03:54:34 clyyyyyyyyyde 03:54:40 are tiy oeioke stukk takjubg abiyt types 03:54:44 help 03:54:45 help 03:54:51 did my keyboard switch to finnish mode 03:55:10 Bicyclidine, 03:55:12 data Void 03:55:19 Bicyclidine: theres a thing people call void but it's not as meaningful as in stuff like agda or coq or 03:55:20 _|_ can be made to be of type Void 03:55:32 sgeo are you sure you can explain this 03:55:54 Says I need an extension to allow a lack of constructors. 03:56:10 how old is your ghc 03:56:10 Let's pretend that Void is a->b. a->b should be uninhabited, just like Void, right? 03:56:17 :t undefined :: a -> b 03:56:19 a -> b 03:56:22 sgeo 03:56:24 please dont 03:56:32 Bicyclidine: did you think that fmap took a functor as an argument……………………………………………………………………………………… 03:56:44 what the fuck are those ellipses 03:56:47 sounds like i missed out "on a lot of fun" 03:56:56 Sgeo: alas zzo's sprunge paste has expired 03:57:02 they all got... blurry 03:57:10 Bicyclidine: the way it's defined in the "void" package is 03:57:16 anyway it's just something from when I didn't know what typeclass syntax was and i was grasping at straws 03:57:16 -- | A logically uninhabited data type. 03:57:16 #if __GLASGOW_HASKELL__ < 700 03:57:16 data Void = Void !Void 03:57:16 #else 03:57:16 newtype Void = Void Void 03:57:18 #endif 03:57:25 elliott: my ghc is from debian, so presumably it's older than me 03:57:52 Bicyclidine: so you need a void to construct a void. the ! means it's strict in its argument so it's a bit harder to fit a bottom in there 03:58:09 I see I see. 03:58:13 Bicyclidine: ghc --version 03:58:18 please do that so i know if i have to take drastic measures 03:58:29 Bicyclidine: after doing it please paste the result in the channel 03:58:31 6.12.3 03:58:35 fuck 03:58:37 "uh oh" 03:58:38 please upgrade that 03:58:43 seriously you have no idea 03:58:53 can i get specifics 03:58:55 like 03:58:57 just install 7.4 03:59:01 you'll probably thank me later 03:59:01 is ghc 6 like a CUPS server 03:59:08 it's like ghc 6 03:59:09 Bicyclidine you might as well be using a rusty spoon to compile your haskell code 03:59:13 yes that 03:59:17 it would be more type safe at least 03:59:21 and faster 03:59:26 and more elegant 03:59:28 Oh, bad compiled output huh? Neat. 03:59:30 Bicyclidine, if you want to be able to define data types at GHCi, you'll upgrade 04:00:01 thats not really what we meant Bicyclidine 04:00:01 if you want elliott not to "take drastic measures" you'll upgrade 04:00:07 and believe me you don't want elliott to do that 04:00:14 he's never done it before but it sounds bad 04:00:24 Ok, what did you mean. 04:00:31 Bicyclidine, I'm on Ubuntu 10.10 and I've managed to upgrade GHC 04:00:52 ghc 6.12 is so old it doesn't support lens.........……..………….....….…….….…..…... 04:01:02 i dunno sgeo .configure && make && make install is hard 04:01:26 wellyou should 04:01:26 do it Bike 04:01:28 just use a binary package 04:01:31 you dont want to compile ghc 04:01:33 (really) 04:01:42 probably just use the haskell platform binary package?? 04:01:43 using debian packages sounds like heck 04:01:43 elliott: The binary package still has configure/make/make install 04:01:51 it doesnt have the make part iirc 04:01:55 true 04:01:57 are you sure because whenever i mention having a compiler that's slightly behind bleeding edge i get jumped on 04:02:01 or at least it doesn't do anything 04:02:14 Bicyclidine: HP isn't bleeding edge 04:02:15 gotta keep up with all the new developments 04:02:18 elliott: TWIST: there is no binary package :,( 04:02:23 7.6 is bleeding edge 04:02:36 7.4 is part of the Haskell Package, the go-to for newbies 04:02:37 remember when people used to say cutting edge 04:02:45 and then that wasn't "cutting edge enough" 04:02:52 well sudo apt-get install haskell-platform is what i did 04:02:57 i'm a simple man with simple lack of savvy 04:02:58 now "bleeding edge" is an idiom instead of a joke :'( 04:03:03 Bicyclidine: your compiler is from june 2010 04:03:06 its three years old 04:03:09 good month 04:03:29 the stable version it's of is from 2009 04:05:24 next up: amputated edge 04:05:57 imo the bleeding edge should be "spj's keylogger" 04:06:02 the cutting edge can be HEAD 04:06:11 the dull edge can be 7.6 04:06:15 what about the wounded edge 04:06:21 the internal organs edge 04:06:46 internal organ? 04:06:51 is that "internal to a church" 04:07:02 im more interested in this rusty spoon edge 04:07:09 if i cut someone with it will they die 04:07:29 yes and Bicyclidinidine would be to blame 04:07:39 bitchin' 04:15:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:19:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:26:08 Bicyclidine: did you get it yet 04:36:04 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:41:54 Bicyclidine i need your public service again 04:41:56 tell me to go to bed 04:42:06 elliott go to bed 04:42:09 -!- Bicyclidine has changed nick to Bike. 04:42:16 or to sleep. that one might be better because it works even if it's monqy you're servicing 04:42:21 fucking hell elliott isn't it like twelve in the morning where you live 04:42:31 04:42 04:42:44 uh dude isn't that private 04:42:48 yes 04:42:51 im letting you into my world :-) 04:42:56 awwwww 04:43:16 It's 12 in the morning where *I* live. 04:43:23 By 12 in the morning I mean 23:43. 04:43:31 By live I mean "am alive at right now". 04:43:49 it's too early where i live 04:44:07 i want to go to sleep 04:44:12 @localtime monqy 04:44:14 Local time for monqy is Thu Mar 7 20:44:13 2013 04:44:40 monqy: you know about type systems right 04:44:43 sure 04:44:48 what does it mean to say rank-2 type inference is possible 04:45:06 everyone says it "even elliott" 04:45:14 but what are the limitations 04:45:37 -> 04:46:22 idk off the top of my head what it means "precisely"?? 04:46:50 well you can give (\x -> x x) a rank-2 type 04:46:56 is that inferrable 04:47:04 does it even make sense to say that 04:49:05 well asking if some type of a specific term is "inferrable" loses a bit of sense 04:49:26 since the general case can still be undecidible but special cases heuristics yada yada 04:50:42 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:51:12 well sure but the general case here is supposed to be decidable 04:51:27 so im wondering what that means for specific cases 04:54:55 if being decidable means that it's possible to infer a type for every term with a rank 2 type then 04:55:01 yes that term would get a type inferred for it?? 04:55:15 ok 04:55:29 does it mean it's possible to infer "a most general type" 04:55:41 or just any ol type that fits?? or what 04:56:19 the way i stated it it'd just be any ol type that fits....the actual theorem might be for most general types. what i said was just an example of what a theorem statement might look like. you'd have to check for yrself. 04:56:26 since i cannot recall 04:56:52 well where would i find the theorem 04:57:03 should i read the paper edwardk linked or something else 04:57:04 help 04:57:11 i dont know type systems :(' 04:57:45 i guess i should just read that paper 04:58:55 probably edwardk knows what he's talking about? 05:02:16 sigh 05:02:37 monqy: is it true they took summon green rat out of summon small mammals in crawl 05:02:53 that was ages ago 05:02:56 ornage rats too 05:05:08 orange, that's the one i meant 05:05:14 or was it green? 05:05:16 i think orange 05:05:22 those rats were so good 05:05:23 both 05:05:52 no i just meant one of them 05:05:57 ok then it was orange 05:06:17 anyway ye summon small mammals stopped being major ridiculous ages ago 05:08:57 but i liked it when it was major ridiculous 05:09:21 woops 05:09:40 is it just me 05:09:44 or did Sgeo miss an update 05:09:57 coppro: no olist isn't going to be updated until next week 05:10:03 and smlist isn't updated :'( 05:10:15 smlist? 05:10:23 super mega comics 05:10:25 `cat bin/list 05:10:27 ​#!/bin/sh \ oldpwd=`pwd`; cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; name=$(cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | tail -1 | sed "s/[^<]*.*//; s/.*\* //; s/ .*//"); cd $oldpwd; fgrep -q "$name" bin/list || echo -n "$name " >> bin/list; echo cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ tswett Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd 05:10:35 eh he's there 05:10:55 shachaf: neither of those 05:11:01 smlist 05:11:07 `ls bin 05:11:09 ​? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ colorize \ define \ delquote \ elist \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ ka 05:11:11 `run ls bin/*list* 05:11:13 bin/elist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/list \ bin/lists \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist 05:11:20 `cat bin/elist 05:11:22 echo elliott 05:11:28 elliott: sorry 05:11:37 `run cat bin/mlist 05:11:38 Oh, did elliott update? 05:11:39 echo Seeing a philosopher 05:11:45 lol 05:11:57 oh and pbf didn't update either 05:12:00 anyway, I will do you all the favor of mentioning that there is a homestuck update before I talk about it 05:12:07 none of the other lists are relevant 05:12:25 `emptylist 05:12:28 emptylist: 05:12:30 shachaf: I think you're wrong ;) 05:12:53 shachaf: coppro's right; emptylist is pretty dang relevant 05:13:09 `cat bin/makelist 05:13:11 echo 'tail -n +2 $0 | xargs echo; exit 0' >$1;chmod +x $1 05:13:17 a good list 05:13:18 monqy: true 05:13:25 makelist is bad 05:13:28 so is it a universal property of cherubs that they love worldbuilding? 05:13:32 its not even accurate anymore? 05:13:35 `run cat bin/emptylist 05:13:38 echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit 05:14:13 `run echo 'cp bin/emptylist bin/"$1"' > bin/makelist 05:14:18 No output. 05:14:20 `makelist deletedlist 05:14:24 No output. 05:14:27 `deletedlist 05:14:30 deletedlist: 05:14:34 `run echo shachaf >> bin/deletedlist 05:14:39 No output. 05:14:40 `deletedlist 05:14:42 deletedlist: shachaf 05:14:44 `run rm bin/deletedlist 05:14:49 No output. 05:15:00 can we stop playing with the robot 05:15:03 and build more worlds 05:15:12 which worlds 05:15:33 holmestuck sounds pretty horrible 05:15:38 Bike: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05958_2.gif 05:15:48 that did not answer the question 05:15:49 imo a better thing with the word "stuck" in it is slaughterhouse five 05:16:03 Bike: you'll have to read it to find out 05:16:04 billy pilgrim has become poo-tee-weet in time 05:16:25 i'm just saying that because i was reading it today 05:16:29 good book imo 05:16:46 monqy: from now on instead of saying rip you should say so it goes 05:16:54 good idea 05:17:00 rip? 05:17:06 so it goes 05:17:20 As in. "Oh dear. It appears I have so it went my pants" 05:17:51 ???? 05:18:06 if instead of saying "rip" you say "so it goes" then instead of saying "ripped" you say "so it went" 05:18:09 duh 05:18:29 ok 05:21:37 anyway "sleep time" 05:22:27 have fun 05:24:29 -!- Taneb has joined. 05:26:55 ^list 05:26:55 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 05:27:45 sorry sgeo, coppro beat you to it 05:28:09 It's almost half 5 in the morning 05:28:12 What am I doing up 05:28:57 a twin channeling of the spirits of sgeo and elliott 05:29:00 very dangerous 05:34:06 -!- dessos has left. 05:36:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:38:27 @karma C 05:38:27 C has a karma of 1 05:40:34 ok so like esoteric, sounds like a cool channel, so i idle in here a few days. i still don't know wtf is the point of the channel. somebody explain. i used sit in a channel #sgeo (a chan about sacred geometry). some dude named sgeo poke his head in and is like, wtf is this. so whats the low down here? also for your entertainment here is this::::: 05:40:36 Field theories of limericks by individual consciousness exists, as could conceivably be considered to the merging of the Gaia mind. Modern field theory of the method of empirical science, in which are not exclusive to think. Thomas (always more clearly described in glowing terms about one wavelength of the claim 05:40:58 (markov chain generated from the logs of the past few days in here) 05:41:45 oops wrong chain here: 05:42:30 how do abstract algebra classes in the method of programmer-hours have a -> return first versions of compare? 02:13:06: By 12 in and deployment! For more elegant 03:59:28: bitchin' 04:15:22: -!- Fiora nortti oklopol Ngevd 05:10:35: weid 02:56:01: something 02:18:17: `emptylist 05:12:28: 05:42:57 #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird 05:42:57 Nothing here 05:43:05 thanks oonbotti. 05:43:12 Oh sweet it got my "bitchin'" in there. 05:43:15 I am immortal. 05:43:24 LOL 05:44:18 ok is COBOL ok for esoteric programming languages, i did that back in the day 05:45:14 I'd look at INTERCAL 05:45:34 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:45:35 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/ 05:46:30 RPG (report program generator) 05:46:35 did that too 05:46:48 fortran 05:47:16 yes there was a punch card mashine 05:47:19 machine 05:48:22 i've only heard stories about those 05:48:48 pascal, but that seems too have keep up with the times 05:49:28 never encountered entercal 05:49:32 intercal 05:52:41 `rwelcome phiscribe 05:52:45 ​phiscribe: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 05:52:49 everyone needs more welcoming 05:53:05 there's another kind of esoterica? 05:53:11 my eyes, THEY BURN 05:55:43 `words 05:55:50 enterniige 05:59:27 http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd454/vectorbomb/Ninja-Code-Black-T-Shirt-Front.jpg 06:10:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:15:09 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:27:19 -!- aloril has joined. 06:29:04 -!- augur has joined. 07:00:34 `run words # with friends 07:00:44 schuttack 07:00:51 wassat 07:01:03 HackEgo: You're such a schuttack. 07:01:10 words with friends? 07:01:22 I understand it is a game. 07:01:26 it is 07:01:29 Fiora: your ##asm antics are pretty great, i hope you know 07:01:37 antics?? 07:01:47 GOD only 23 07:01:50 i hate u 07:01:58 ? 07:20:16 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:30:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:40:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:57:39 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:09:55 -!- nooga has joined. 08:15:19 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:16:05 -!- wareya has joined. 08:18:20 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 08:21:12 fizzie: Your gravatar image at github is over 3x the size it needs to be. (It could be gravatar's fault, I suppose, if they use poor resizing algorithms or something.) 08:23:37 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 08:34:37 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:37:40 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:44:51 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:48:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:09:02 -!- nooga has joined. 09:09:32 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:22:48 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:43:04 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:01:23 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:04:51 Deewiant: I'm pretty sure I didn't make it a 400x400. 10:05:31 What I uploaded is whatever gives single pixels in the dither pattern. 10:07:34 -!- nooga has joined. 10:11:26 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:57:49 -!- Zuu has joined. 10:59:59 -!- Zuu has left. 11:03:53 -!- Snowyowl has joined. 11:04:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:04:52 fizzie: I just meant that the file size is huge, mostly due to not using a grayscale palette. 11:07:07 I think it was a two-color PNG back when I sent it. 11:09:41 Possibly bad things have happened to it automatically. 11:11:06 Fair enough. 11:12:55 Although it's possible bad things have happened to it manually, too. I think I extracted it out of the file I had made for a door placard kind of thing. 11:13:05 The photo is terribly old in any case. I should perhaps produce a new self-picture some day. 11:18:17 -!- monqy has joined. 11:28:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:31:34 -!- lahwran has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 11:41:04 -!- lahwran has joined. 12:14:50 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:14:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 12:14:53 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 12:36:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:37:11 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:44:46 -!- Frooxius has joined. 12:57:47 The Museum of Modern Art wants to add Core War to it's video game display http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21661690 12:58:15 great 12:58:40 i heard about core war as a child and it sounded awesome 12:58:50 too bad i didn't know how to do stuff 12:59:03 today i'd prefer something less assambly 12:59:14 Was core wars really a thing 12:59:21 * ais523 considers mentioning BF Joust 12:59:24 It sounds less popular than bfjoust 12:59:27 Jafet1: impomatic is pretty good at it 12:59:32 it's definitely more popular than BF Joust 12:59:37 except among members of this channel 12:59:37 never heard of bf joust 12:59:40 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet. 12:59:47 because this channel is the correct channel for discussing BF Joust 12:59:51 Is it still a thing, more to the point? It sounds fun, but I can't find anyone seriously talking about it more recently than 2009. 12:59:53 myname: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust 12:59:56 corewars, that is 13:00:34 @wn museum 13:00:36 *** "museum" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 13:00:36 museum 13:00:37 n 1: a depository for collecting and displaying objects having 13:00:37 scientific or historical or artistic value 13:00:49 i'd love something like this for befunge or the like 13:01:43 something like what? 13:01:51 bf joust 13:02:30 it'd be especially interesting because of the p command 13:03:44 okay, more like core war 13:03:45 it could be interesting hunting for the other program in a 2D space 13:04:34 maybe the other guy wrote a really tall, but really narrow program :P 13:05:27 Core War is quite active. There's been 178 successful submissions to the main hill so far this year. Even more that didn't enter the hill. 13:06:24 Snowyowl: CoreLife - hunting for the other program in 2D :-) http://corewar.co.uk/corelife 13:09:10 -!- cookienugget has quit. 13:12:44 -!- cookienugget has joined. 13:13:20 impomatic: do you run corelife? 13:13:48 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 13:15:37 it seems like a program with no processes would be invincible, because its strength-per-process becomes infinite 13:15:59 so if you own 51% of the board, you should kill yourself immediately :P 13:16:06 I'm guessing this is completely wrong. 13:16:44 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 13:18:16 corelife is shareware? 13:18:31 it doesn't seem to have a large enough niche to work as shareware 13:18:47 Snowyowl: corewar.co.uk is my site. corelife is nothing to do with me though, other than I have a page about it. 13:18:53 especially given that shareware basically doesn't exist nowadays (although it's making something of a revival on mobile platforms) 13:19:49 corelife is playable without registering. If you register I think it adds an option to encrypt your code, but not much else. 13:20:31 it adds an option to put authorship information on the coe 13:20:32 *code 13:20:42 but shareware = some features unlocked by paying for the product 13:22:13 free-to-play is kind of like shareware these days. 13:25:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:25:42 -!- augur has joined. 13:27:55 yes 13:29:36 myname: BF Joust turned out to be pretty interesting to play, you get people playing it occasionally still 13:29:42 when they have an idea for a new strategy 13:30:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:30:06 ais523: never doubt that 13:30:26 we suspect it's inherently broken by something, but nobody's figured out what breaks it yet 13:30:49 huh? 13:33:48 as in, there's a strategy that beats all other viable strategies 13:36:38 you suspect there is a best strategy? 13:37:01 yes, or a best strategy blend 13:37:37 I doubt there's one single strategy that always wins. Any plan has weaknesses. 13:38:08 There's almost certainly a best strategy blend, though. Nash equilibriums and all that. 13:40:00 yes 13:40:06 except that in BF Joust, there's some cost to actually blending 13:40:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:45:01 it sounds pretty interesting 13:50:12 @localtime elliott 13:50:14 Local time for elliott is Fri Mar 8 13:50:12 2013 13:50:16 Hm. 13:51:06 -!- boily has joined. 13:53:12 -!- augur has joined. 13:55:08 How do C#/Java propagate/check/implement exceptions? 13:55:31 Putting something in a try clause has severe performance implications. 14:00:41 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 14:00:59 usually you would expect that a try block does not have an impact if no exception is thrown 14:01:16 which is what most people on the internet say 14:01:50 however there are measurements where just putting a throw block around some heavy calculation (no throw) stuff already decreases performance 14:02:01 (and if an exception is thrown it get's horribly slow anyways) 14:04:46 -!- carado has joined. 14:05:13 ^list if no one already did it 14:05:13 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 14:05:49 ^ping 14:05:55 !ping 14:06:03 Pong! 14:06:43 -!- cookienugget has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:08:15 !blsq_uptime 14:08:15 12d 17h 51m 50s 14:14:36 -!- metasepia has joined. 14:14:40 ~ping 14:14:40 Pong! 14:15:48 @ping 14:15:49 pong 14:16:30 lambdabot's pong feels a little bit lackluster... 14:18:29 Pong! 14:19:24 i do think bf joust would open a whole new branch of strategies if there'd be any kind of equality test that doesn't need to change or at least clear the cell 14:21:12 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:25:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:26:03 "Poke can be combined with the wiggle clear to produce a deep poke. This strategy was first used in Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls, see its behavior against Deewiant_pendolino for a good example: Trace and animation 14:26:07 " 14:26:09 srsly? 14:27:52 yarly 14:30:23 ~duck yarly 14:30:23 Yarly is a village in the Jalilabad Rayon of Azerbaijan. 14:30:59 -!- Snowyowl has quit (Quit: Page closed). 14:31:32 ~duck Hexham 14:31:32 --- No relevant information 14:31:40 ... 14:31:52 Duck Duck Go has its priorities really warped 14:32:36 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 14:33:51 ~duck taneb 14:33:51 --- No relevant information 14:33:55 indeed. 14:37:07 -!- azaq23 has joined. 14:37:21 -!- Snowyowl has joined. 14:37:36 i'm back biptches 14:46:51 > let foo ~True = 3 in foo False 14:46:53 3 14:46:57 > let foo ~True = 3 in foo undefined 14:46:58 3 14:47:18 Conclusion: "~True" is useful only for obfuscation 14:47:31 ...and actually could be quite useful for obfuscation 14:47:53 > let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..] in foo True 14:47:55 mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs... 14:48:05 > let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..]; in foo False 14:48:07 mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs... 14:48:15 > let {foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..]} in foo False 14:48:17 mueval-core: UnknownError "GHC returned a result but said: [GhcError {errMs... 14:48:45 ~eval foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..] in foo True 14:48:45 Error (1): :1:12: parse error on input `=' 14:48:54 ~eval let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = sum [1..] in foo True 14:48:54 Error (1): Ambiguous occurrence `sum' 14:48:55 It could refer to either `Data.List.sum', 14:48:55 imported from `Data.List' at Imports.hs:16:1-16 14:48:55 or `Data.Foldable.sum', 14:48:55 imported from `Data.Foldable' at Imports.hs:13:1-20 14:49:08 ~eval let foo ~True = 3; foo ~False = Data.List.sum [1..] in foo True 14:49:09 Error (1): 14:49:21 as useful as ever... 14:50:24 Hey, Serenity's on TV tonight 14:51:12 hi Taneb 14:51:19 `welcome Taneb 14:51:24 Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 14:51:43 It's snowing! Crazy, huh? 14:52:04 ~metar CYUL 14:52:04 CYUL 081400Z 02011KT 15SM FEW025 SCT180 BKN240 M01/M06 A3032 RMK SC1AC2CS4 SLP270 14:52:09 no it's not. 14:53:59 I don't know how you read that. It looks like line noise to me. 14:55:00 -!- Sanky has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:02:40 http://www.theonion.com/articles/half-of-26yearolds-memories-nintendorelated,2361/ 15:12:06 @ask elliott Can you /nick Guest79759 and back to elliott, to unmessup my /query window? 15:12:07 Consider it noted. 15:12:14 Alternatively, someone in here tell me how to do that in irssi. 15:12:22 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:12:22 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 15:12:22 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:12:36 What’s wrong with the window? 15:12:55 Well, my /query elliott window says it's to Guest79759 15:13:06 Close it and create a new one. 15:13:15 But then the scrollback will disappear. 15:13:29 (Note: I don't keep logs. I rely on the scrollback.) 15:13:55 There’s a script for irssi that restores it from the logs, i think. IIRC think weechat does that natively. So, simply start logging and get something with that functionality. 15:14:09 No, I refuse to start logging. 15:14:49 I heard your brain has been logging IRC. 15:15:14 Yes, but imprecisely. 15:15:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:17:04 -!- Sanky has joined. 15:17:06 -!- Sanky has quit (Excess Flood). 15:17:34 -!- Sanky has joined. 15:19:14 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:25:55 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:34:32 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:36:13 -!- cookienugget has joined. 15:45:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:47:44 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:50:28 Hello 15:50:54 hi 15:52:38 howdy 16:05:29 ulloh 16:12:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:13:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:13:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:21:36 hi 16:22:10 who is Snowyowl 16:22:24 that's a very deep question 16:22:33 who are any of us, really? 16:22:45 you know when it snows and somebody shouts "snow! y'all!" 16:22:48 that's him 16:22:50 well you seemed to think we should know when you proclaimed "i'm back biptches[sic]" 16:24:30 Not really. I'd dropped offline for 5 or so minutes and the conversation was a little slow. 16:24:44 It was just something to say. 16:31:41 the conversation, you musn't meddle with it. especially on fridays, where it may explode in ludicrous gibs. 16:32:25 i will meddle with whatever I see fit 16:32:46 conversations, computer systems, the fabric of reality, my dinner, etc. 16:33:42 * boily taps a plain and enchants the conversation with a flickering ward. 16:34:55 damn, no counterspells left 16:36:02 * Snowyowl plays a Storm Crow 16:46:04 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:49:58 -!- kallisti has joined. 16:49:58 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 16:49:58 -!- kallisti has joined. 16:55:18 -!- Bike has joined. 17:05:51 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:06:21 The Illusionist is a good film 17:09:27 Yeah 17:09:41 Yeah it is 17:12:09 I am glad we are in agreement 17:12:38 Unless you're talking about the 2010 animated film, which I lack an opinion on due to not having seen it 17:13:14 I'm not. I'm talking about the one where the main character eventually starts with spirit illusions. 17:13:39 And where the whole story turns out to be an illusion, to trick the bad guys 17:13:51 well, bad guys, that depends on the point of view of course 17:14:53 Yes 17:14:57 That is what I am talking about 17:15:06 Yeah, great movie 17:18:59 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: do-be-do-doo). 17:22:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:28:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:28:39 why is vim syntax highlighting nondeterministic 17:35:13 emacs syntax highlighting is also nondeterministic because it tries to do it lazily 17:37:12 http://www.news.com.au/technology/patient-has-75-per-cent-of-his-skull-replaced-by-3dd-printed-implant/story-e6frfro0-1226593075470 17:40:06 3dd? 17:40:16 Cool cats have 100% of their skull replaced. 17:45:15 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:50:48 http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/jeremy.gibbons/publications/rationals.pdf I like this 17:51:23 what is it 17:51:28 its a pdf 17:51:29 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 17:51:39 thx 17:52:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:53:14 It's about generating an infinite list of all the rationals, with no repeat values 17:53:50 that doesn't seem very hard? 17:54:07 it's a functional pearl, they're not about hard things 17:54:11 except when they are 17:54:14 but they usually aren't 17:54:17 o 17:54:22 it's about the journey, not the destination 17:56:27 If we take that out of it's context... is it then a great truth? 17:56:31 *its 17:57:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:05:17 -!- audioPhil has joined. 18:06:21 -!- ais523 has quit. 18:08:12 hey folks 18:08:13 anybody here that knows how to read and write "Maze"? 18:09:46 probably not 18:09:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:10:36 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:10:44 @hoogle interleave 18:10:44 package interleave 18:10:44 Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.VertexArrays data InterleavedArrays 18:10:44 Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.VertexArrays interleavedArrays :: InterleavedArrays -> Stride -> Ptr a -> IO () 18:10:52 -!- daniela_12aleja1 has joined. 18:11:21 -!- daniela_12aleja1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:13:30 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:14:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:23:12 In some other IRC I connected, I found a "Logon session Fortune Cookie" which appears as a second MOTD. Would having two MOTD at once ever cause problem in any cases? 18:23:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:26:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:27:31 welliott 18:27:40 No renicking, huh? 18:44:02 -!- daniela_12alejan has joined. 18:44:03 `run sed -i 's/tswett //' bin/list 18:44:08 No output. 18:44:17 -!- daniela_12alejan has left. 18:44:30 `run grep tswett bin/list | wc 18:44:33 ​ 0 0 0 18:45:32 `run grep HackEgo bin/list | wc 18:45:37 ​ 1 47 318 18:46:58 `list 18:47:07 cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd 18:47:17 ~echo `list 18:47:17 `list 18:47:25 cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd 18:47:29 `list 18:47:33 cuttlefish boily elliott Taneb HackEgo Sgeo monqy pikhq Sgeo_ Phantom_Hoover nortti oklopol Ngevd metasepia 18:47:46 `rung sed -i 's/cuttlefish //' bin/list 18:47:48 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rung: not found 18:47:52 `run sed -i 's/cuttlefish //' bin/list 18:47:57 No output. 18:48:26 are you going to deprive cuttlefish of updates to the list? 18:49:00 I could recuttle the list, even if the bot is no more. 18:49:18 Rung it up. 18:49:28 `run sed -i 's/^/cuttlefish /' bin/list 18:49:29 could you PLEASE stop highlighting me, i hear it's really annoying!! 18:49:32 No output. 18:50:19 `run sed -i 's/ok..pol //' bin/list 18:50:23 No output. 18:50:27 hmm... we could morse core øklopol by hiliting him with multiple bots. 18:50:34 s/core/code/ 18:50:45 `run grep -e 'ok..pol' bin/list | wc 18:50:48 ​ 0 0 0 18:50:57 boily: wrong sedding 18:51:11 `revert 2396 18:51:13 easiest just to restore it 18:51:20 Done. 18:51:20 since there's a lot of sh gunk before the names 18:51:37 ah, yeah. silly me. 18:51:56 `run sed -i 's/ok..pol //' bin/list 18:52:00 No output. 18:52:42 -!- audioPhil has left. 18:53:09 `run echo echo >bin/list # optimisation 18:53:12 No output. 18:53:53 `list isn't list anymore! 18:53:54 No output. 18:54:27 my point indeed 18:54:49 I do not disapprove. 18:54:55 you vile unlister! 18:56:47 misdirected, I feel 18:57:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:00:49 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 19:02:39 hm, could instead do it in a stateless way, like: 19:03:03 `fetch http://sprunge.us/hjCT 19:03:07 2013-03-08 19:03:05 URL:http://sprunge.us/hjCT [142] -> "hjCT" [1] 19:03:09 `run mv hjCT bin/list; chmod +x bin/list 19:03:14 No output. 19:03:15 though that will break in 2020. 19:03:31 maybe less elegant since it doesn't quite do the same as ais523's version. 19:03:54 in 2020, the world will have ended. 19:04:03 very true 19:08:46 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Quit: Bye). 19:08:55 `list 19:08:57 ais523 Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo Taneb 19:09:07 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 19:09:13 fgrep? 19:09:21 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:09:28 It occurs to me that there will be false positives: Anyone who used `list back when it was Homestuck related 19:09:40 ?? when did i get on the list 19:09:41 when did i get on the list 19:09:49 this is bullshit and thank you for concurring 19:09:52 Bike, it's a new list 19:10:02 `rm bin/list 19:10:02 So why am I on it! 19:10:06 Everyone who has ever said `list 19:10:07 No output. 19:10:12 But I haven't... 19:10:14 `revert 19:10:14 Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 19:10:17 Done. 19:10:19 `paste bin/list 19:10:23 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/list 19:10:51 I think I can make impersonations 19:11:07 Is that so. 19:11:25 foobarbaz> `list 19:11:26 `list 19:11:28 ais523 Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo Taneb 19:11:43 hm 19:11:50 ) `list 19:11:50 boily: `list 19:12:00 Isn't * usually greedy? 19:12:14 in regexes? yeah 19:12:18 no, he has reformed his ways. 19:12:32 So why didn't my thing wo.. oh 19:12:34 everyone keeps pinging me :< 19:12:36 derp 19:12:46 now you see the true horror of the list, fiora 19:12:47 Hi, Fiora! 19:13:33 nyaa 19:13:46 -!- SUPREME_BUTT_SUI has joined. 19:13:46 the list is not horrorful, it is wonderful, awesome, causes rejuvenescence and will slice your pineapples! (oh, and the obligatory Fiora-ping) 19:13:52 `list 19:13:53 the true terror 19:13:54 ais523 Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb 19:14:03 Sgeo: nice choice 19:14:05 -!- SUPREME_BUTT_SUI has quit (Client Quit). 19:14:25 though i must admonish you for destroying the purity of the list 19:14:54 what's a sui? 19:14:57 ...oh, the new list is kind of a thing, huh. 19:15:08 What's the command to search the logs with a regex again? 19:15:13 Short for "sui generis"? 19:15:22 So, like, "supreme butt of its own kind"? 19:16:05 Bike, hm? 19:16:08 choice? 19:16:18 of name. 19:16:44 foobarbaz is not really a creative name 19:16:49 I meant SUPREME BUTT SUI. 19:17:12 I did not choose that name. I do not know who SUPREME BUTT SUI is 19:17:18 But it isn't me. 19:17:48 whoa. 19:18:36 With Curry-Howard, when the logic is classical logic, it is with continuations; but what is it when the logic has numbers in it? 19:19:13 can't you just embed numbers in classical logic 19:19:50 -!- monqy has joined. 19:20:42 zzo38: can you give an example of logic that has numbers in it? 19:20:53 Hi monqy. There's a new list. 19:20:57 hi sgeo 19:21:27 tswett: Something like Typographical Number Theory, I guess 19:21:35 `run ls bin/*list 19:21:38 bin/elist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/list \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist 19:21:56 bin/listofpeoplewhowishtobenotifiedwheneverhomestuckupdates 19:22:23 * tswett ponders TNT under the CHI. 19:22:28 tswett: Yes, that matches the glob *list 19:22:36 `eslis 19:22:39 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eslis: not found 19:22:39 `elist 19:22:41 elliott 19:22:47 bin/updateshomestuckwhenevernotifiedbetowishwhopeopleoflist 19:22:48 `cat bin/elist 19:22:51 echo elliott 19:22:51 `smlist 19:22:54 smlist: shachaf monqy elliott 19:22:54 elliott's updating faster these days 19:23:05 We need a FORTH bot. 19:23:12 `gforth --version 19:23:14 gforth 0.7.0 19:23:17 DONE 19:23:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:24:16 `gforth WORDS 19:24:19 ​ \ *OS command line*:-1: No such file or directory \ >>>WORDS<<< \ Backtrace: \ $40E25F40 throw \ $40E23030 required \ $40E2A750 execute \ $40032BD0 \ $40037A00 \ $4002E000 \ $40028FE0 \ $40E2A720 \ $40E217C8 catch \ $40E22FD0 execute-parsing-wrapper \ $40E23090 os-execute-parsing \ $40E23668 args-required 19:24:31 `run echo WORDS | gforth - 19:24:34 Unknown option: - \ Gforth 0.7.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license' \ Type `bye' to exit \ WORDS \ mov-regv-Iv mov-reg8-Ib xchg-ax jcc-short conditions pop-reg push-reg \ set-add-likes set-add-like set-noarg rAX,Iz AL,Ib Gv,Ev Gb,Eb Ev,Gv \ Eb,Gb Iv Jz Iz 19:24:46 `run echo DUP | gforth 19:24:49 Gforth 0.7.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license' \ Type `bye' to exit \ \ :1: Stack underflow \ >>>DUP<<< \ Backtrace:DUP 19:24:59 `run echo WORDS | gforth 19:25:03 Gforth 0.7.0, Copyright (C) 1995-2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ Gforth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `license' \ Type `bye' to exit \ WORDS \ mov-regv-Iv mov-reg8-Ib xchg-ax jcc-short conditions pop-reg push-reg \ set-add-likes set-add-like set-noarg rAX,Iz AL,Ib Gv,Ev Gb,Eb Ev,Gv \ Eb,Gb Iv Jz Iz immz Jb Ib Ev Ed Eb 19:25:14 What the fuck kind of words are those? 19:25:19 good words 19:26:04 Words that aren't so mean and nasty as the eff word. 19:26:16 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:26:17 pineapply words. 19:26:18 What the mov-regv-lv kindn of words are those? 19:26:30 What the rAX,lz kind of words are those? 19:26:34 I dunno, I think I disagree. 19:26:36 `run echo WORDS | gforth | paste 19:26:47 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27233 19:26:47 The word "fuck" is all cute and dainty. 19:26:49 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq. 19:26:52 `list 19:26:55 ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb 19:26:56 "rAX,lz" is clearly a harsh evil alien word. 19:27:01 That's a lot o' words. 19:27:04 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb. 19:27:14 I think it has too many words. 19:27:24 so wait, shachaf never ran `list? 19:27:38 tswett: It's GNU, whaddya expect? 19:27:45 ~echo shachaf `list 19:27:46 shachaf `list 19:27:57 Phantom_Hoover, that is correct 19:27:59 there, two shachafy list-hits. 19:28:03 ~echo `list 19:28:04 `list 19:28:07 ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb 19:28:10 Classy. 19:28:12 `run echo FORGET (listlfind) WORDS | gforth | paste 19:28:12 darn. 19:28:14 bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo FORGET (listlfind) WORDS | gforth | paste' 19:28:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:28:39 Can the log be fooled with a literal new... probably not 19:28:45 `run echo 'FORGET (listlfind) WORDS' | gforth | paste 19:28:54 Used to be possible to fool people in Active Worlds by using a newline 19:28:56 ​ \ :1: Undefined word \ >>>FORGET<<< (listlfind) WORDS \ Backtrace: \ $40E1AA68 throw \ $40E30CE0 no.extensions \ $40E1AD28 interpreter-notfound1 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12928 19:29:00 I don't think literal newlines are allowed in IRC. 19:29:06 * tswett GASSPSPSPSS 19:29:39 @tell elliott Avoid Riding Mill Methodist Church next Friday evening. 19:29:40 Consider it noted. 19:30:34 tswett: Gly-Ala-Ser-Ser-Pro-Ser-Pro-Ser-Pro-Ser-Ser? 19:30:37 Taneb: wow you know riding mill exists? 19:30:38 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:30:49 boily: yeah, definitely. 19:30:58 elliott, some of my best friends live in Riding Mill! 19:31:00 Well... 19:31:14 One person I know was planning on moving there but her family changed their mind 19:31:26 Gregor: this isn't a *real* FORTH! 19:31:38 But yeah, I'm going to be attending a play in Riding Mill in ALMOST PRECISELY ONE WEEK'S TIME 19:32:23 tswett: Your mom isn't a real Forth, but we still let her... yeah, Idonno how to finish that. 19:33:34 And I don't want the universe to explode 19:33:47 Maybe some kind of pun on being stacked 19:34:13 ~duck idonno 19:34:14 --- No relevant information 19:35:24 ~duck friends 19:35:24 friends definition: one attached to another by affection or esteem. 19:35:27 yes 19:35:43 elliott, now you know 19:35:56 Perhaps I count as a friend to you 19:36:03 ~duck nephew 19:36:03 nephew definition: a son of one's brother or sister or of one's brother-in-law or sister-in-law. 19:36:11 ~duck aardwolf 19:36:12 aardwolf definition: a maned striped nocturnal mammal ('''Proteles cristatus''') of southern and eastern Africa that resembles the related hyenas and feeds chiefly on insects and especially termites. 19:36:20 So, speaking of nephews. 19:36:37 tswett, I'm not elliott's uncle. 19:36:41 I am. 19:36:45 :O 19:36:49 elliott is now capable of saying a few words. 19:37:04 The other day, he suddenly started excitedly saying, "No! No! No!" 19:37:14 * boily is completely subjugated, fulgurated, shocked, and surprised. 19:37:15 It took me a while to realize he was referring to the snow outside. 19:37:21 ~duck fulgurate 19:37:21 fulgurate definition: the act or process of flashing like lightning. 19:37:30 ~duck amphichiral 19:37:30 Of or relating to the structural characteristic of a molecule that makes it impossible to superimpose it on its mirror image. 19:37:35 tswett, is this... the same elliott? 19:37:41 Of course it is. 19:37:48 elliott is two and a half years old now. 19:37:57 Because our elliott lives in Hexham and there hasn't been any snow here for a couple of weeks 19:38:14 We pulled up YouTube on an iPad and let him use it himself. 19:38:29 It's pretty cool how he was capable of selecting his own videos and telling them to play. 19:38:33 no! no! no! brainfuck derivatives! 19:38:36 obviously the same elliott 19:38:40 But he only watched each video for about ten seconds before moving on to the next one. 19:38:49 ~metar EGNT 19:38:50 EGNT 081920Z 08009KT 3500 -RA BR BKN003 03/03 Q1005 19:39:00 numbers station bot?? 19:39:10 it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. 19:39:24 Bike: no, only weather info. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR 19:39:29 boily's Newcastle Theorem. 19:40:08 `addquote it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. boily's Newcastle Theorem. 19:40:09 it's be nifty for my bot to numbers station :D 19:40:16 981) it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. boily's Newcastle Theorem. 19:40:22 ~metar KGRR 19:40:22 KGRR 081853Z 22005KT 10SM CLR 03/M07 A3044 RMK AO2 SLP319 T00331067 19:40:40 Ooh, KGRR's is longer. 19:40:51 thats at least seventy more spaces than necessary Taneb 19:41:02 And? 19:41:18 boily, can you add a utility to convert IATA to ICAO? 19:41:30 I can. 19:42:35 So, let's see. That's the 8th of the month at 18:53 Zulu time, or 1:53 PM local time. 19:44:03 The temperature is 3 degrees Celsius and the frost point is -7 degrees Celsius. 19:44:22 Or, in the common tongue, 37 F and 19 F. 19:44:38 Ugh... Fahrenheit... 19:45:26 * boily merrily swats tswett with a minimalist design, german engineered flexible and shiny SI thermometer 19:46:20 Ugh... Kelvin... 19:46:32 imo reamur 19:47:09 Wind at 5 knots from 220 degrees. 19:47:25 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:51:13 neat, KGRR has detailed temperature infos. it is 3.3 °C, with dew point at -6.7 °C. 19:51:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:51:28 Visibility is 10 miles. The altimeter setting is 30.44 inches mercury. There's an automated precipitation sensor. The pressure at sea level is... 1031.9 hectopascals? 19:51:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:51:53 yep. once again weird pressure units! 19:52:08 15 psi 19:52:13 boily: presumably calculated from values rounded to the nearest degree Fahrenheit. 19:54:25 -!- AnotherTest has left. 19:55:48 tswett: probably. occult and subversive unitary heresy. 19:58:58 I wonder what the purpose of METAR is, anyway. 19:59:49 pilots, mainly. otherwise for geeking out at a precise and frequent source of numeric data. 20:02:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:03:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: every single letter is 'U' | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:03:38 no one can complain about misleading topic now. Uu uuuu? 20:04:41 I thought this channel was about esoteric language spotting. ggg ggg G! 20:05:07 U uuuuu U uuuuuuuu uuuu uuu uuuuu. 20:05:31 Uuuuu uuuuuuuuuu uuuuu uuuuuuu uuuu uuu uuu U. Uuu uuuuuuu, "u". 20:05:55 Uuuuuu, uuuuuuu'u uuuuuuuu? U uuuu uuuuu uuu uuuu uuuu. 20:06:05 ǚ. 20:06:07 tswett: U uuuuuuuu. 20:06:13 Uuuuuu uuuu Uuuuuuuu, uu uuuuuuu Uuuu'u uuuuuu. 20:06:38 oerjan: U uuu'u uuuuuu uuuuuuuuuu uuuu uuu'uu uuuuuu. 20:06:57 Uuuuuuu uu uuuuuu uuuu uuuuuuuuu uuu uuuuuuu uuuu "u". 20:07:02 U UUU 20:07:22 (btw that wasn't the part i changed) 20:12:23 -!- nooga has joined. 20:14:21 `run welcome | uuu 20:14:23 Uuuuuuu uu uuu uuuuuuuuuuuuu uuu uuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuu uuu uuuuuuuuuu! Uuu uuuu uuuuuuuuuuu, uuuuu uuu uuu uuuu: uuuu://uuuuuuuu.uuu/uuuu/Uuuu_Uuuu. (Uuu uuu uuuuu uuuu uu uuuuuuuuu, uuu #uuuuuuuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.) 20:15:50 ^ping 20:15:56 i am sure i added that. 20:16:03 ^ping 20:16:12 i guess fizzie didn't save though 20:16:30 ^def ping ul (pong)S 20:16:30 Defined. 20:16:59 or maybe someone else added it 20:17:38 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:17:52 ^def ping ul (That Pong alone can't stop!)S 20:17:52 Defined. 20:18:11 `? fungot 20:18:12 oerjan: the essence of scheme's interactivity. in case you really want speed, develop in whatever and then added " so that someone can clean? 20:18:15 fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone. 20:18:20 -!- phiscribe has left ("Ex-Chat"). 20:18:23 ^def ping ul (That Pong alone cannot stop!)S 20:18:24 Defined. 20:19:07 fizzie: _now_ you can save hth 20:23:46 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 20:29:12 Phantom_Hoover.............................................. 20:29:20 Don't false-alarm-update `smlist 20:31:16 random late Friday afternoon question: has anyone here dabbled with bitcoins? 20:31:30 I dabbled with bitcoins once. 20:32:21 `echo waffle waffle waffle 20:32:23 waffle waffle waffle 20:32:47 I ran the program for about 15 minutes then got bored :-) 20:33:03 I was wondering: is it possible for bitcoins to disappear and volatilize themselves? like, there's a bug in a transaction, and the amount doesn't exist anymore? 20:33:25 Sure enough, if I'm connected to a server through a VPN, and I turn off the VPN, the connection stops working. 20:33:53 -!- atriq has joined. 20:34:04 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:34:08 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb. 20:34:23 boily: have you tried #bitcoin? 20:34:25 Good advice: if you write a forkbomb, don't test it on your primary computer 20:38:16 impomatic: I'm going to. 20:38:32 Test it on HackEgo! 20:38:34 Taneb: not testing bombs on your main machine is for wimps. 20:39:43 fix(forever.forkIO) 20:40:44 is elliott still there? 20:41:14 `quote 981 20:41:16 981) it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. boily's Newcastle Theorem. 20:41:36 `run sed -i '981s/ / /' quotes 20:41:39 No output. 20:41:43 `quote 981 20:41:46 981) it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. boily's Newcastle Theorem. 20:42:26 Trivia: I typed them out manually rather than copy-pasting 20:42:37 why did you write a fork bomb in the first place? 20:42:48 myname, to see how hard it'd be in Haskell 20:43:11 > length "fix$forever.forkIO 20:43:13 :1:27: 20:43:13 lexical error in string/character literal at end of input 20:43:14 m( 20:43:15 > length "fix$forever.forkIO" 20:43:17 18 20:43:46 The actual program is 18 characters, however inputs et al. bring it up a tad 20:44:17 > length "import Control.Concurrent;import Control.Monad;import Data.Function;main=fix$forever.forkIO" 20:44:18 91 20:44:54 Haskell: Not good for Twitter-sized programs. 20:44:58 What's the trivalent logic operator such that foo True = True; foo _ = Unknown? 20:45:35 Gregor, if I wanted Twitter-sized programs, I'd seriously rethink my life 20:45:55 Heh 20:46:00 Bike: i think it's foo 20:46:12 Shit. 20:48:51 * impomatic wonders if it's possible to write a bf interpreter in a tweet 20:49:27 relative to what machine?? 20:49:41 impomatic: http://j.mearie.org/post/1181041789/brainfuck-interpreter-in-2-lines-of-c 20:50:17 the golf it burns 20:52:15 nice 20:53:00 i don't even 20:53:23 a bit explaination would be nice 20:53:29 I want to make programs that fit in a QR-code 20:53:37 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:53:53 zzo38: android virusses? 20:54:44 No. 20:54:59 myname: did you scroll down 20:55:19 oh 20:55:37 wow. that syscall... 20:55:44 good syscall 20:56:10 I think someone might have made a QR-code encoding the PNG file of itself 20:56:11 zzo38: https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?cht=qr&chs=350x350&chld=L&choe=UTF-8&chl=%23include+%3Cstdio.h%3E%0Aint+main(void)%7Bprintf(%22Hello%2C+world!%5Cn%22)%3Breturn+0%3B%7D%0A 20:56:34 zzo38: That would be cool. 20:56:41 but, usually in those cases, the code is Scheme or a variant thereof. 20:56:49 I saw someone who made a zip file that contained itself 20:56:56 (I need to find that project with flashy flowers and an arduino derivative...) 20:57:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:57:31 I know that BASIC programs for the Nintendo 3DS are stored in QR-codes, although you normally need several. 20:57:32 Taneb: http://research.swtch.com/zip 20:57:35 zip file of length N that expands to a zip file of length N+1 that expands to a zip file of... 21:00:27 I really think "select-encode" and "select-decode" instruction of a CPU really would be useful in many cases, so I want to learn how to program it into a Verilog code of an existing CPU core. 21:01:51 now i'm wondering. what's the shortest bf interpreter out there, regardless of language 21:02:04 I also think they would be useful in C to make ~< and ~> operators, really, I do things that I want such operators, a lot 21:02:15 nooodl: i made a language where every program is a bf interpreter 21:02:20 nooodl: checkmate??? 21:02:25 no... 21:02:36 nooodl: waiting for HQ9+BF? 21:02:56 nooodl: "regardless of language" means you can just define a language etc etc monqy 21:03:03 that's like the most tired esoteric programming language """"joke""""" ever 21:03:28 the answer is: yes, you could do this, but i'm going to punch you in the face 21:03:45 challenge considered 21:03:46 turing relativity isn't a joke it's the basis of life! 21:04:01 or kolmogorov relativity would be a better name i guess, w/e 21:04:55 thingy thingy something about the question being wack 21:05:06 straight up wack 21:05:28 ~duck quack 21:05:28 quack definition: to make the characteristic cry of a duck. 21:06:47 there are languages that take as input a thing and its output goes through a brainfuck implementation. cat is a brainfuck interpreter. thank you tehz. 21:09:46 tswett: the official FAQ about bitcoins confirm my fear: a spurrious electronic mishap can destroy forever bitcoins. 21:09:47 who's tehz why're we thanking them 21:10:10 boily: losing your wallet can, too 21:10:21 nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:TehZ 21:11:28 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainbrain oh 21:11:34 nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/TehZ 21:11:40 "Unparseable is a language designed to be hard (maybe impossible?) to parse. It is context-sensitive, it REQUIRES you to mix the parser and the interpreter, and it allows you to redefine commands while the program is running." 21:11:43 Like Perl! 21:11:52 just look at enough of what tehz's done and you'll understand why thanking him is a funny joke :-) 21:11:54 ℒ feels weirdly dual to this. 21:12:44 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Postfix_notation thanks tehz 21:13:10 ~duck boily 21:13:10 --- No relevant information 21:13:15 surround notation is pretty :-) 21:13:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unparseable suddenly I have no desire to make an interpreted Trustfuck 21:13:16 nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Surround_notation 21:13:43 the wikipedia link to the linguistics page :') 21:13:50 surround. notation. wtf. 21:13:55 Unless... you write an interpreter, and it becomes a compiler by magic 21:14:00 quintopia: I am unduckable. 21:14:10 ~duck unduckable 21:14:10 --- No relevant information 21:14:16 nooodl: tehz is also 'infamous' for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Meta_Turing-complete 21:14:41 ????? 21:14:44 ! 21:17:50 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:21:55 This "Unparseable" language looks vaguely defined. 21:22:40 It says that the & command modifies the program. It implies that the & command does this before being executed. 21:22:42 to be fair, so is perl 21:23:01 Which implies that Unparseable has separate compile-time and run-time semantics. 21:23:55 It also implies that the = command works at compile-time, not at run-time. 21:24:10 woa.. check this out http://thecarpandtheseagull.thecreatorsproject.com/ 21:24:17 beautiful 21:25:04 It's not currently clear whether / works at compile-time or run-time. 21:25:36 In any case, both / and = only apply to the commands following them. 21:26:11 tswett, what do you think of Trustfuck? 21:26:45 Hm. In addition to implying that = works at compile-time, it strongly implies that it works at run-time. 21:27:12 So yeah, the Unparseable spec is just self-contradictory. 21:27:15 Sgeo_: I'm not familiar with it. 21:27:32 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Trustfuck 21:28:36 my browser doesn't support opengl, dawg 21:30:22 Sgeo_: mm, dunno. 21:30:23 perhaps the most confusing thing about trustfuck is... why would you make EOF -1 21:30:58 nooodl, specifying EOF makes it easier to write compilers that read _all_ input, not just input cut off by NUL 21:31:13 Hm. I need to come up with an interesting esolang. 21:31:19 I'll think about it over the next however long. 21:31:27 The interesting thing is what a compiled in ! does 21:31:40 Suppose you make a compiler for a similar language except all the commands are shifted 21:31:53 Then, the shifted ! will accept the shifted commands as the primitives 21:32:01 this sounds strangely malbolgey. 21:33:11 i don't really get trustfuck at all 21:33:28 "It is intended to be compiled, and the compiler, written in Trustfuck," 21:33:38 the compiler *must* be written in trustfuck? 21:34:19 Hm. 21:35:02 There's a Haskell implementation, but conceptually it is the compiled form of the Trustfuck code 21:35:36 It actually literally includes ",+[-:,+]!" 21:37:13 nooodl: there's an implicit "which is" before "written" 21:37:27 hmm let me try to make an implementation in python 21:38:05 i don't have brains so i can't read the haskell code 21:38:17 I can describe how the Haskell works if that helps 21:38:18 but i don't really get why you need the whole primSource string 21:38:36 oh, to compile the code into haskell i guess 21:39:03 It's effectively an almost-quine 21:40:17 Much of the body of the code acts as an interpreter for primitives. 21:40:31 could someone explain why underload puts stuff with parentheses on the stack? 21:41:20 myname: because that's the main way of getting a constant program onto the stack 21:41:39 With one constant holding the compiled-into-primitives code that represents the program that is currently running. 21:41:53 also the only command which can work if the stack is empty to start with 21:42:14 That is, when I compile X into primitives, I emit what is effectively interpreter+prims to interpret 21:42:24 i do understand why he uses (...) to put stuff on the stack 21:42:25 myname: or do you mean something else? 21:42:37 When I compile, I also push myself onto the compilerStack that will be emitted 21:42:43 -!- nooga has joined. 21:42:49 what i don't get is why it doesn't just put the stuff without the parantheses on the stack 21:43:13 That is, after having run the code block through the compiler stack. The compiler stack also consists of, effectively, lists of primitives 21:43:26 myname, that's just how the specific implementation you're looking at workds 21:43:32 So, I run the code block as input to the most recent, then that through second-most-recent, etc. 21:43:53 Well, wait, that's not accurate. 21:44:07 myname: oh. that's just the notation for stacks which i invented... doing it that way means you can just put the stack in front of the program without separating them. that is very useful for when you think of underload as a concatenative language, but ais523 (the language inventor) found it weird too 21:44:18 I run the code block as input to the top of the compiler stack, and while that is running, the compiler stack is conceptually popped 21:44:34 he used to have the stack without parentheses 21:44:35 So when the top compiler calls compile, the next program on the compiler stack starts running 21:45:16 myname: i wish people could just trust me that it works much better thinking about the language that way :( 21:45:18 When compile is called while compiler stack is empty, that's when the Haskell program + new compilerStack and program is emitted 21:45:29 nooodl, is this making any sense? 21:45:33 yeah 21:45:42 it soudns like it's a lot easier to do in an imperative language 21:46:02 Meh, not really. 21:46:09 myname: and without it we'd need some other notation to separate stack elements 21:46:10 well, it's the same really 21:46:35 I can't _really_ change the compiler stack. What if a program wants to do something weird like call compile twice? 21:46:41 just, more work has already been done for you? because you can translate brainfuck code into simple statements like "while t[p]:" instead of having to write a whole interpreter yourself 21:47:19 Hmm. 21:48:16 Remember, you have a stack of compilers that you have to run. So you'd have to call portions of that generated imperative code. 21:48:30 Maybe c0 c1 c2 etc? And functions ... hm 21:48:46 functions s0 s1 s2 and s2 may end up running s1 which runs s0? 21:49:05 i don't get the compiler stack thin 21:49:15 i think i'm about to find out the hard way 21:49:17 why i need it 21:49:18 -> 21:49:32 Suppose I write, in Trustfuck, a compiler for a language Trustfuck+ 21:49:36 Trustfuck ++ 21:49:39 blah 21:50:11 Anyway, the Trustfuck++ compiler (written in Trustfuck) translates Trustfuck++ code to Trustfuck code before calling !, right? 21:50:13 (does trustfuck have 8-bit cells?) 21:50:24 Unspecified, but must be allowed to be negatvie 21:50:27 negative 21:50:31 oh 21:50:34 i'll write it non-wrapping 21:50:58 Now, what happens when Trustfuck++ uses !? 21:51:13 ! in Trustfuck++ will take Trustfuck++ code 21:51:25 So the Trustfuck++ compiler will need to be run 21:51:44 which is written in trustfuck? 21:51:52 so you need the trustfuck compiler, etc? 21:52:06 Well, at the bottom level it's primitive compilation 21:53:10 (Incidentally, ! in Trustfuck++ taking Trustfuck++ is automatic, it's the meaning of Trustfuck's !) 21:53:40 I guess that's a bit of an easy mode 21:55:09 Although the Haskell implementation does include the Trustfuck written in Trustfuck compiler 21:55:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:55:13 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:55:41 Which seemed easier than writing the code to actually, for each character do this, compile, etc. 21:55:44 Reuse of machinery 21:56:08 Although if you're compiling into while's, etc., that wouldn't be so helpful for you 21:59:29 I think I'd really like to see people making better languages with the core Trustfuck concept, rather than more implementations 21:59:32 But whatever 21:59:43 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 22:07:57 to be honest, i don't get the core trustfuck concept 22:08:10 http://codepad.org/MbjAElkz this might work idk 22:08:22 i'm going to give actual ! code a shot 22:10:00 oops theres some obvious things wrong with this 22:10:41 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:10:51 Python is not the best language for emitting. 22:12:01 myname, the core idea is that the details of the target of compilers is hidden, you write compilers that target Haskell or Python or whatever without writing a drop of Haskell or Python 22:13:28 And when you write a compiler for another language in Trustfuck, that language's compile instruction also does not need to do Trustfuck, you're always compiling to the language you're writing the compiler in. 22:16:46 Sgeo_: http://codepad.org/ttu0lN3B 22:16:52 does this mean i did things right? 22:18:09 nooodl, that's one test 22:19:07 What happens with the following code? ,+[:,+]! 22:20:02 That should compile into Python. Then the equivalent shifted up should compile, and be equivalent 22:20:44 it outputs python code that doesn't seem to be doing anything 22:21:08 it contains the compile() definition and the header, but the "body" i pass it seems to be ignored 22:21:13 Erm, wait 22:21:22 I'm wrong 22:21:24 which makes sense actually 22:21:40 ",+[:,+]!" -TF-> newlang 22:22:13 > map succ ",+[-:,+]!" 22:22:15 "-,\\.;-,^\"" 22:22:35 "-,\\.;-,^\"" -newlang-> newlang 22:22:45 I... think 22:22:47 hmmm hold on 22:22:52 > map succ "+." 22:22:54 ",/" 22:23:25 > map pred "+." 22:23:26 "*-" 22:23:40 i'm going crazy 22:23:52 or, no 22:23:53 Let me find my testing directory 22:24:38 Oh, I'm wrong about the direct 22:24:47 I made a compiler for a language called pred consisting of ,+[:,+]! 22:24:51 ^save 22:24:51 OK. 22:25:08 echo *********************************- | python tf2.py | python 22:25:20 It's pred, because the lack of - means that you go one LOWER than the TF to get the corresponding TF 22:25:21 ^ this now prints '!', then a python program 22:25:38 So I compiled that with the compiler 22:26:32 ohh 22:26:40 it was a stray " " from my echo command 22:26:43 getting shifted into "!" 22:26:54 then executed, outputting a python program 22:27:00 that does nothing 22:27:19 now it works fine 22:27:29 > map pred ",+[-:,+]!" 22:27:30 "+*Z,9+*\\ " 22:27:38 Now, compile that with the pred compiler. 22:27:45 And see if the result is also a pred compiler. 22:27:54 It should be. 22:28:10 > var $ map pred ",+[-:,+]!" 22:28:11 +*Z,9+*\ 22:28:21 Oh, that doesn't show the space 22:28:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]). 22:29:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:29:35 don't you mean 22:29:38 > map pred ",+[:,+]!" 22:29:40 "+*Z9+*\\ " 22:30:04 i seem to be getting just a TF compiler, not a pred one 22:30:57 for +*Z9+*\ i get the right thing 22:31:31 If you're getting the right thing for that, then your implementation is wrong 22:31:49 ! is supposed to take primitives in the language that is currently running, not necessarily TF 22:32:44 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:32:49 wait... 22:33:02 -!- kallisti has joined. 22:33:03 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 22:33:03 -!- kallisti has joined. 22:33:08 i don't know if i'm doing that 22:33:32 And thus nooodl learns the reasoning behind the compiler stack the hard way, just as he predicted 22:33:46 yeah i'm definitely not 22:33:47 hmm 22:34:11 Possible alternative to this: Make it easy enough to write a quine such that people could make ! behave that way if they want but don't have to 22:34:26 i don't see how to make a new compiler for the currently running language 22:34:43 Have all the old compilers on hand. 22:37:01 so what you were saying is, this should be able to print out a compiler for pred, written in python, right? 22:37:27 (which is fails to do because of it not having the compiler stack thing) 22:38:31 Yes 22:38:52 Because in pred, space takes PRED commands in the code block, not TF commands 22:42:04 AFK 22:42:24 theoretically you could apply the same "f(TF) = PRED" process to translate TF into any other language L... and then f(",+[-:,+]!") would be an L program that spits out a python L compiler 22:42:51 i think? trustfuck is kinda crazy 22:43:26 nooodl, if I understand you correctly, that is completely correct. 22:43:45 yeah, i'm kinda bad at explaining it 22:44:21 but it's pretty nifty 22:44:27 :D 22:46:41 Actually, wait 22:47:04 You'd need to be able to reverse it. It's easy to make a language L that does not contain equivalents of ! or + 22:48:29 So, if you have a transform f(L) = TF, then f^-1(",+[-:,+]!"), if it exists, = compiler for L 22:48:37 written in L 22:48:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:09:35 back 23:11:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:12:19 o.O wait what http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/parsing-context-sensitive-languages-with-applicative/ 23:13:37 cool 23:14:19 :t (&&&) 23:14:21 Arrow a => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c') 23:14:46 > (pred &&& id &&& succ) 5 23:14:47 (4,(5,6)) 23:15:02 Would be so nice for (4,5,6) to be syntax sugar for that 23:15:11 Although elliott still disagrees 23:15:17 Oh, wait 23:15:21 Oh, n/m the wait 23:15:43 don't you mean (4,(5,(6,()))) 23:16:04 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:16:07 well, (5,6) is presumably syntax sugar for (5,(6,())) 23:17:25 so your (&&&) example would not work 23:18:01 ilu sugar 23:18:40 -!- monqy has joined. 23:19:21 > each.traverse.(pred, id, succ)$5 23:19:23 Couldn't match expected type `t0 -> t1' 23:19:23 with actual type `(a0 ... 23:19:33 :t each.traverse 23:19:35 (Applicative f, Traversable t1, Each f s t (t1 a) (t1 b)) => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t 23:19:39 oh hm 23:21:28 :t each 23:21:29 (Indexable (Index t) p, Each f s t a b) => p a (f b) -> s -> f t 23:21:37 * elliott isn't sure what oerjan's example is meant to do 23:21:47 (f,g,h) isn't quite a function :P 23:22:23 :t sequence 23:22:25 Monad m => [m a] -> m [a] 23:22:27 :t sequenceA 23:22:29 Not in scope: `sequenceA' 23:22:29 Perhaps you meant one of these: 23:22:29 `Data.Traversable.sequenceA' (imported from Data.Traversable), 23:22:40 damn you lambdabot 23:22:44 damnbdabot 23:22:50 :t Data.Traversable.sequenceA 23:22:52 (Applicative f, Traversable t) => t (f a) -> f (t a) 23:22:57 oh hm 23:23:46 :t WrapMonad 23:23:47 m a -> WrappedMonad m a 23:24:07 Can WrapMonad actually break stuff somehow? 23:24:39 Hmm, I guess if the monad is an instance of something that WrappedMonad didn't include 23:25:36 > each id (pred, id, succ) 5 23:25:39 (4,5,6) 23:25:46 :t each 23:25:48 (Indexable (Index t) p, Each f s t a b) => p a (f b) -> s -> f t 23:25:49 :t sequenceAOf 23:25:51 LensLike f s t (f b) b -> s -> f t 23:25:55 > sequenceAOf each (pred,id,succ) 5 23:25:57 (4,5,6) 23:26:06 ah that's the one i was looking for 23:26:11 bit verbose though :P 23:26:23 well, in this case 23:26:25 :t sequenceOf 23:26:28 LensLike (WrappedMonad m) s t (m b) b -> s -> m t 23:26:28 would work too 23:26:28 * Sgeo_ is scared of lenses 23:26:37 saves a whole character 23:26:46 what's to be afraid of 23:26:58 Sgeo_: but your personal hero, Baruch Spinoza, was a glassmaker! 23:28:19 o.O at both assuming that I knew who Spinoza was, and that according to Wikipedia, glassmaking may have killed him 23:28:32 The latter is a good enough reason for me to be afraid of lenses, I think 23:28:59 wait did you actually not know who spinoza was 23:29:15 I knew that he existed and was a philosopher 23:29:17 he's all famous and shit 23:29:19 yeah that's good enough. 23:31:10 oh are you talking about lenses like what you put on your eyes to see good 23:31:22 yeah those are kind of freaky 23:32:08 i have some 'lenses' that make everything dark so my eyes dont hurt in the sunlight? spooks me out every time. theyre staring at me right now. i should move them. 23:32:55 are you explaining sunglasses to #esoteric 23:32:59 thats probably actually the safe move i guess 23:33:15 help what's a sunglass 23:34:05 it's like a normal glass but it has a little sun in it, which cancels out with the sun you know and love 23:34:10 it's a glass that contains a sun, import for fusion technology 23:34:15 *important 23:34:28 it's not as strong as 'the' sun though so you can still see a bit through it 23:35:08 oh cool 23:35:10 i love science. 23:35:28 what if i don't love the sun 23:35:42 then you're probably a vampire 23:36:02 me too 23:36:05 you should avoid touching sunglasses 23:36:39 that was to what if i don't love the sun , hth 23:36:55 me too 23:37:03 there should be some kind of sunglasses joke in Lens 23:37:22 But sunglasses don't actually have lenses in them. Just glass. 23:37:22 ok 23:37:43 christ now i'm imagining someone who uses libraries based on jokes in their source code 23:38:07 imagining someone who uses lens 23:38:20 D: 23:38:45 was that thing you wear on your arm and handle interfaces wirelessly posted here ? 23:39:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:39:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:40:28 Sgeo_: so why's it called Trustfuck? 23:41:09 It was inspired by Reflections on Trusting Trust (although I don't think I actually read the paper) 23:41:17 Sunglasses have lenses, but they're lenses that don't do very much refracting. 23:41:27 Rather, the refraction doesn't have much net effect. 23:41:30 The information about the target language that the compiler needs is 'hidden away' in a trusting trust like manner 23:42:06 https://github.com/noelmarkham/learn-you-a-haskell-exercises hey, this is cool 23:42:59 Bike aren't you reading through LYAH at the moment, this might be useful! 23:43:38 and admit he doesn't understand the material first time around? 23:43:43 you have no ken of the politics at play here 23:43:49 also what are you doing helping a lisper 23:44:09 I should try to look at Shen again 23:44:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:46:09 i think i'll look at it to see when this gets past "you have only ever used java and don't know what a function is" mode 23:46:26 you're a lisper 23:46:29 you don't know what a function is 23:46:32 lisper is a weird word to me because there's a street close to where i live that's called Lisperstraat 23:46:35 you think they have side effects and stuff 23:46:45 it's called that because a nearby plain is called Het Lisp i think! 23:46:53 also it's not exactly "close", sorry, no stalking me 23:47:12 gay lisp, het lisp, 23:47:14 come on man, i know the difference between a procedure and a pure function. 23:47:38 come on that was at least slightly funny 23:47:46 And can you name a Haskell function that takes 0 arguments, a Haskell function that takes 1 argument, and a Haskell argument that takes 2 arguments? 23:47:49 (This is a trick question) 23:47:56 what 23:48:10 um 23:48:11 sgeo??? 23:48:29 i legitimately don't know the answer to that 23:48:32 is it my fault 23:48:39 it's sgeo's fault 23:48:42 as a lisper i have also never heard of currying (nor have i been party to really boring arguments about whether "curry" in a library is technically a correct name (it's not)) 23:48:42 ok good 23:49:16 Currying by default has some interesting effects 23:49:19 monqy hi 23:49:21 :t curry 23:49:22 ($) is just type restricted id 23:49:23 ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c 23:49:31 haha what is that even for 23:49:31 what now Bike 23:49:35 it curries a function 23:49:36 :t uncurry 23:49:38 (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c 23:49:43 > map (uncurry (+)) [(1,2),(3,4)] 23:49:45 [3,7] 23:49:53 curry is... harder to find uses for 23:49:56 :t curry fst 23:49:57 :t curry snd 23:49:58 c -> b -> c 23:49:59 a -> c -> c 23:50:05 good functions 23:50:15 (const and flip const, respectively) 23:50:17 (or const and const id) 23:50:37 shachaf: hi?? 23:50:38 can i give up on haskell and program exclusively with ski combinators 23:50:45 Bike: lazy k 23:50:48 genius 23:50:53 maybe if you have some function on pairs (a,b) 23:50:58 yes but why would you 23:51:01 that. 23:51:45 whats going on ehre 23:51:49 because the pairs are points, or something! like distance :: (Int,Int) -> (Int,Int) -> Int 23:51:54 is Bike learning about 0 argument functions 23:51:57 something about arrows (why would you) 23:52:03 nooodl: and would curry be useful there??????? 23:52:06 well they wouldn't be Ints but you get the idea 23:52:08 i'm goign places 23:52:22 Bike, also there are no 0 argument functions 23:52:22 bye nooodl 23:52:24 shachaf: sgeo said something silly 23:52:26 bye 23:52:28 bye 23:52:30 there can be no 0 argument functions. there always arguing over functions. 23:52:35 Sgeo_: not true. "0-argument function" is a perfectly well-defined concept 23:52:37 *there is 23:52:44 (they are the same thing as depth-0 nested lists, or such) 23:52:54 it's official, i've picked the worst place to learn haskell near. 23:52:57 We need to turn the calculus of constructions into a combinator system. 23:53:00 the error is in taking this to mean "everything is a function", or promoting functions as somehow special because of that 23:53:21 And then program in that. 23:53:23 THEORY: everything is a thing 23:53:28 let's say you have a list of x values and a list of y values and you want all of their distances to (0,0), 23:53:35 It would be just like programming in the SKI calculus, except worse. 23:53:42 elliott: that generalizes to arbitrary Functors, no? 23:53:44 and instead of writing "map (distance (0,0)) $ zip xs ys" 23:53:59 oerjan: generalises to more or less arbitrary anything :P 23:53:59 Bike: btw so long as you just ignore the silly things people say (like that thing sgeo said, and that other thing sgeo said what was it yesterday) you'll probably be fine hopefully 23:54:02 you can write like, "zipWith (curry $ distance (0,0)) xs ys" 23:54:06 ain't that great! 23:54:08 Anyway, I now know what my language is going to be like. 23:54:08 monqy: i'm waaaaay ahead of you 23:54:29 monqy: you mean as long as Bike ignores #esoteric he'll be ok 23:54:30 It's going to be called Tweelee. A program is just going to be a finite state machine operating on a pointed directed unknot diagram. 23:54:33 i think he's learned that 23:54:54 nooodl: so why do you have [Int] and [Int] rather than [(Int,Int)]??? 23:54:55 monqy, it was a trick question. I was going to note all Haskell functions as having 1 argument 23:54:55 i mean, it's not like i don't like this. it's neat having quicksort as a oneliner even if it's not the best implementation, that sort of thing 23:55:04 nooodl: btw 23:55:06 Sgeo_: well it was silly 23:55:07 and "filter" is a way better name than "remove-if-not" i tell you what 23:55:07 it was an accident elliott 23:55:14 nooodl: you can write like, "zipWith (curry $ distance (0,0)) xs ys" 23:55:17 you actually want uncurry there 23:55:23 uh wait 23:55:25 no you don't ignore me 23:55:30 Bike: is that what clisp calls it 23:55:36 Bike: woooow 23:55:36 yeah uncurry would've actually been easy to find uses for :( 23:55:39 The commands let you move forwards and backwards, and perform Reidemeister moves on your vicinity. 23:55:40 We need to turn the calculus of constructions into a combinator system. <-- what would a combinator system with explicit types be like... 23:55:42 monqy: "cool huh" 23:55:48 Bike: well the quicksort one-liner doesnt even have quicksorts asymptomtotmotmotmotmics :-( thankfully merge sort is nice on lazy linked lists! 23:56:04 elliott: that's what i meant by not the best implementation. 23:56:04 oerjan: well, the type of a CoC term can always be computed from the term. 23:56:12 monqy: did you know: clisp also calls map: mapcar??? 23:56:17 there's not even any automobiles involved 23:56:18 vroom vroom 23:56:21 ugh remember when in common lisp, 23:56:27 clisp is a specific Common Lisp impelementation 23:56:29 functions and other things are in different namespaces or some crap 23:56:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:56:37 and you have to write (mapcar #'function things) 23:56:40 So it'd be a lot like our plain old regular boring combinator systems. 23:56:48 remember when in common lisp: it's a terrible language? 23:56:51 yes i remember that vividly. 23:56:57 sorry *clisp 23:56:57 i am wounded 23:57:54 I do support the existence of good macros. 23:58:03 I lied. This knotty language will be called Tweeling. 23:58:10 i just don't even understand that, the whole function symbol namespace difference thing, isn't the nice thing about lisp not having to do that,,,,, 23:58:26 The nice thing about Lisp is macros. 23:58:27 theres nothing nice about lisp nooodl 23:58:28 even Bike knows that 23:58:39 it's nice having parameters named "list" but still being able to call the list function. it's not exactly major 23:58:50 wow i tried to parse "tweeling" as an english word and i'm a native dutch speaker 23:59:01 tweedleedlee 23:59:14 The big issue is having to deal with labels and flet in additition to the regular let stuff 23:59:18 Well, I guess that's not big 23:59:23 But that's an annoyance 23:59:26 Also a false sense of security 23:59:32 tswett: i mean that in CoC the terms contain types (and vice versa), no? 23:59:34 Bike: please don't tell me that's "the" argument for having #'functions 23:59:35 since when was Bike a lisper 23:59:37 lisp macros....aren't those those unhygeinic things 23:59:42 wtf is even going on here 23:59:43 oerjan: well, every type is also a term. 23:59:47 just imagine a dependently typed lisp. where in you have an INFINITE NUMBER OF NAMESPACES 23:59:51 because types kinds sorts . 23:59:54 welcome to het lisp 23:59:59 welcome to Heck Lisp 2013-03-09: 00:00:03 well dependents kinda irrelevnat there 00:00:06 nooodl: there are better ones but i'm not going to bother 00:00:07 poo 00:00:08 So in addition to having combinators representing functions, we'll also have to have combinators representing types. 00:00:14 tswett, are you making a knotty language 00:00:17 http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(Lier) lispcon 2013 location 00:00:18 Bike: you know lisp-N+1s are shit 00:00:20 Phantom_Hoover: yes. 00:00:20 don't even try to lie 00:00:27 tswett, ooh how does it work 00:00:35 lisp-0+1, um 00:00:35 lisp-N+1s? 00:00:35 N=0? 00:00:37 elliott, er N includes 0 00:00:41 um no i'm using 00:00:46 shitty mathematicians definition of the naturals 00:00:51 when did you become ms flannagan 00:00:57 isnt it amazing how there are mathematicians who ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE NATURALS START WITH ONE 00:01:03 probably they don't even KNOW who PEANO is?? 00:01:06 Important issues, here. 00:01:07 :( 00:01:12 Phantom_Hoover: well, there's a finite state machine operating on a pointed directed unknot diagram. 00:01:19 Can't you have Z be 1? 00:01:28 erm, as in, starting point of Peanos 00:01:35 yes 00:01:39 but it's ugly and dumb 00:01:42 :-) 00:01:59 i mean for fuck's sake what sort of addition doesn't even have an additive identity 00:02:05 tswett, go on 00:02:30 nooodl, how's the Trustfuck impl going? 00:02:31 Phantom_Hoover: i see your radical tendencies peeking out :-) 00:02:36 Phantom_Hoover: how have you been feeling about the real nubmers lately 00:02:39 or should i say 00:02:40 Phantom_Hoover: the finite state machine is capable of moving the point around the diagram (but only forwards and backwards), as well as performing Reidemeister moves on the part of the diagram ahead of it. 00:02:41 the unreal numbers? 00:02:45 i kinda gave up on it 00:02:47 because almost all of them don't exist 00:02:48 Oh :( 00:02:54 i didn't know how much of my code was still correct 00:03:00 is Phantom_Hoover a finitist 00:03:05 but i also didn't feel like rewriting a new impl from scratch juuust yet 00:03:10 maybe i'll make a new one later though 00:03:12 MONQY constructivism isnt finitism 00:03:13 elliott, hey half the reasons i maintain 0 \in N are normal maths 00:03:17 Help design Trustfuck 2? 00:03:17 dont be SILLY 00:03:30 i mean starting at 1 is just dumb 00:03:43 so anyway nother silly haskell question, how's show-ing of things that have only a quantified type work? like 17 since i fucked saying things 00:03:44 * Sgeo_ hides Smalltalk and Lua from Phantom_Hoover 00:03:46 Phantom_Hoover: keep trying to convince urself chaitins constant existing is `normal' 00:03:52 does monqy believe 0 isn't \in N 00:03:54 there are perfectly fine ways to "construct" the "reals" 00:04:04 > show 17 00:04:05 nooodl: 0 \in N for reasonable values of N 00:04:05 that's my latex ineuqality sign 00:04:06 "17" 00:04:12 monqy: the computable reals are countable tho 00:04:12 Bike: I think Haskell picks a default instance. 00:04:13 nooodl: if you're talking to shit mathematicians though you have to be careful 00:04:17 Which I think is Integer in this case. 00:04:18 and all you can `construct' in eg coq 00:04:20 w/o axioms 00:04:25 tswett: Really? Boring. 00:04:26 thanks 00:04:36 (countable `externally') 00:04:39 (not ,,internally'') 00:04:40 :t 17+18 00:04:41 Num a => a 00:04:43 hm 00:04:45 istr my foundations course was absolutely terrible with 0 00:04:49 (but eg you have the thing where you can't write non-continuous functions w/o LEM) 00:04:52 sometimes it was in N, sometimes it wasn't 00:04:59 hm. what's an example of a noncomputable real 00:05:02 (b/c you cant case analysis on the reals) 00:05:05 nooodl: chaitins constant 00:05:05 nooodl: chaitin's 00:05:05 probably they don't even KNOW who PEANO is?? <-- the joke is that Peano started with 1, right? 00:05:25 Phantom_Hoover: that's pretty usual, sometimes they use Ñ and stuff and it's hilariously dumb 00:05:40 nooodl, (chaitin is a shitty example) 00:05:51 what's wrong with chaitin :( 00:05:53 oerjan: i never joke 00:05:55 i mean besides that he's crazy but 00:06:00 Phantom_Hoover: um chaitins is th ebest example 00:06:02 Here's an example: A real which cannot be described even with an infinite amount of symbols. 00:06:03 it sthe maximally hurty 00:06:05 Set a = 0 and b = 1, and then let R be a sequence containing all computable real numbers. 00:06:10 Sgeo_: ??? 00:06:11 chaitin's looks like a good example. i expected something halting problem-y 00:06:17 theres a bijection between reals and potentially infinite streams of bits 00:06:31 specker sequences are much better 00:06:34 * Sgeo_ is a derp 00:06:40 Pop values x from R until a < x < b, then set a := x. Pop values y from R until a < y < b, then set b := y. Repeat forever. 00:07:00 Correct example: A real which cannot be described with any finite amount of symbols 00:07:01 Both a and b will approach the same uncomputable number. 00:07:12 Sgeo_: That's undefinable, not uncomputable. 00:07:29 If it's undefinable, it's uncomputable 00:07:37 Yes, but not the converse. 00:07:50 "Undefinable" has the unfortunate property of being undefinable. 00:07:50 Sgeo_, that is several times shittier than chaitin 00:08:04 nooodl, also there are functions which grow faster than any computable function 00:08:05 i thought making a sequence of all real numbers was impossible! computable or not 00:08:23 if by "a sequence" you mean "a bijection with the naturals" then yes 00:08:29 the computable reals are a subset of turing machines, or whatever other tc system you want 00:08:43 nooodl: there is indeed no sequence that contains all real numbers. However, there is a sequence that contains all computable real numbers. 00:08:51 so you can count them, plus a bunch of TMs which aren't computable reals 00:09:08 but you can't actually tell if a given element is a CR without the halting problem 00:09:39 Bike: haskell has a default declaration which is used to pick default instances for things, the default default is default (Integer, Double) hth. also ghc has an extension to make it apply in more cases, and also prepends () to the default types. 00:09:58 wait that actually does help? what the fuck what is this 00:10:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:10:10 (a, b, c) really ought to be syntactic sugar for (a, (b, c)). 00:10:24 nooodl: you can well-order the rael numbers :-) 00:10:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 00:10:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:10:42 tswett, tell that to elliott, who disagrees 00:11:10 yes make me into the absolute hub for not thinking that specific kind of hlist desugaring is a bad idea 00:11:13 ill never live it down 00:11:16 "the computable reals are a subset of turing machines" hmmm 00:11:43 nooodl: how about this: "the set of all Turing machines that output real numbers is a subset of the set of all Turing machines." 00:11:57 nooodl, a cr is basically a TM implementing a function N -> Q that converges 00:12:14 And given a Turing machine that outputs a real number, there is an obvious real number corresponding to it. 00:13:23 All right. So my language, as I'm currently imagining it, currently only has "if" statements for flow control. 00:13:28 yikes now i'm thinking about things 00:13:32 00:08:05 i thought making a sequence of all real numbers was impossible! computable or not 00:13:40 note that the computable reals are a subset of the reals like the naturals are a subset of the reals 00:13:45 and i'm sure you believe you can make a sequence of rationals 00:13:50 (the set of computable reals is countable) 00:13:59 I can make a sequence of all real numbers that are either two or pi 00:14:23 2, pi, pi, 2, pi, 2, 2, pi, pi, 2, 2, pi, 2, pi, pi, 2, pi, 2, 2, pi, 2, pi, pi, 2, 2, pi, pi, 2, pi, 2, 2, pi, ... 00:15:18 Let's condense that sequence. It alternates between 2 and pi, using each one the following number of times: 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, ... 00:15:22 No actually it's just 2 and pi, repeating is silly 00:15:42 Which, in turn, alternates between 1 and 2, using each one the following number of times: 1, 1, 2, 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 2, 1, ... 00:15:46 nooodl: you can well-order the rael numbers :-) <-- unidentified well-founded ordering 00:16:10 oerjan: yes. but only with extensional choice 00:16:10 Which, if you ignore the beginning 1 and drop all the 2s (since every other number, apart from the beginning 1, is a 2), you get this: 1, 3, 1, 1, 3, 1, ... 00:16:14 "[...] implementing a function N -> Q that converges" i still don't see how that represents a computable real :( 00:16:20 wait 00:16:21 (i.e., the choice that is a theorem (not axiom) of type theory does not give it) 00:16:27 o.O at parsers parsing things other than strings 00:16:38 nooodl, it's a sequence that approaches that real 00:16:39 (and extensional choice implies LEM, iirc) 00:16:39 the real value is just f(0) + f(1) + f(2) + ...? 00:16:42 oh 00:17:02 gotcha 00:17:16 the upshot is, almost all the reals are impossible to define in any meaningful way 00:17:17 And that, in turn, alternates between 1 and 3, using each one the following number of times: 1, 1, 2, 1, ... 00:17:37 and indeed this is true even if you're being nonconstructive 00:18:01 oerjan: yes. but only with extensional choice <-- you missed the pun on your misspelling hth 00:18:13 All right. So my language, as I'm currently imagining it, currently only has "if" statements for flow control. This makes the language definitely not Turing-complete; you can, in O(n) time, look at a program and place an upper bound on the length of time for which it will run. 00:18:30 is this still the knot one 00:18:34 Assuming you can perform arithmetic in O(1) time. 00:18:35 Phantom_Hoover: yup. 00:18:59 :t (<+>) 00:19:01 Ambiguous occurrence `<+>' 00:19:01 It could refer to either `Control.Arrow.<+>', 00:19:01 imported from `Control.Arrow' at State/L.hs:5:1-20 00:19:04 oerjan: oh that was rly stupid 00:19:06 you suck imo 00:19:38 So I need some way to go back and loop. 00:20:08 tswett: btw why didn't you use the kolakoski sequence above hth 00:20:10 augh 00:20:29 tswett, why did you have to say all the stuff about it while like 2 other discussions were going on 00:20:32 cocacola sequence 00:20:51 Phantom_Hoover: nobody told me not to. 00:21:35 elliott: thx 00:22:07 ^ul (12)S(*a(~:)~*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~a(*()~)~*^~^):^ 00:22:09 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output! 00:22:42 tswett, so wait, what controls the states for the fsm 00:22:53 the structure of the knot ahead? 00:25:25 > let kola = [1] ++ concat $ zipWith replicate kola $ cycle [2,1] in take 20 kola 00:25:27 Phantom_Hoover: yes. 00:25:27 Couldn't match expected type `[t0]' 00:25:27 with actual type `[[a0]] -... 00:25:36 > let kola = [1] ++ (concat $ zipWith replicate kola $ cycle [2,1]) in take 20 kola 00:25:38 [1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2] 00:25:54 nooodl: you don't need to use take in lambdabot 00:26:03 boo. it gets the start wrong somehow 00:26:03 it cuts off by itself 00:26:11 nooodl: you're not removing the initial 1. 00:26:22 i "realized" while out that it might be more interesting that constructivists would deny the existence of say the set of subsets of the naturals rather than reals but this is probably because i don't yet truly know how fucked up computable analysis is 00:26:30 > let kola = [1,2] ++ (concat $ zipWith replicate (drop 2 kola) $ cycle [2,1]) in take 20 kola 00:26:34 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 00:26:35 Mmmm. 00:26:42 Maybe that's not the problem. 00:26:48 Bike: have you noticed that powersets are scary 00:27:00 well they only drove cantor insane 00:27:17 power sets are terrifying 00:27:28 * Bike was thinking about the set of all subsets of a set not containing an element of the set earlier, and it got tied up with this 00:27:40 i read a paper once on "power types" 00:27:41 > let kola@(_:ks) = [1] ++ (concat $ zipWith replicate kola $ cycle [2,1]) in 1:2:ks 00:27:43 [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,... 00:27:46 now that was some good shit 00:27:49 how unsatisfying 00:29:10 * Bike was thinking about the set of all subsets of a set not containing an element of the set earlier, and it got tied up with this 00:29:19 hi 00:29:20 isn't that just... P(S\x) 00:29:25 yes 00:29:40 Oh. Not containing a *given* element of the set. 00:29:43 oh huh kolakoski is A000002 00:29:47 As opposed to not containing *any* element of the set. 00:29:58 wouldn't that just be empty 00:30:07 It's like A000001, except posterior. 00:30:11 Bike: it would be {{}}, yeah. 00:30:17 > fix(([1,2]++).drop 2.concat.zipWith(flip replicate)(cycle[1,2])) 00:30:19 [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,... 00:31:15 Trivia: "sword" is not a subword of "subword". 00:31:26 Do people use Parsec when making stuff for QQ stuff in Haskell? 00:31:47 Q: why are you doing QQ stuff 00:32:02 just making sure you're not hopped up on macros again 00:32:07 Q: ¿q s qq? 00:32:16 tswett: good q 00:32:28 Yesod uses it, right? 00:32:39 ugh. Q: how do math people write that a function returns, for example, a set of reals 00:32:49 powerset 00:33:11 i think ive also seen subset 00:33:11 thanks 00:33:12 but 00:33:15 thats weird 00:33:29 powerset is what i see most of the time 00:34:05 wow crazy people use ℙ for powerset according to wikipedia 00:34:33 solely to piss off kmc no doubt 00:34:40 ℙ(ℝ) 00:34:47 lol. 00:35:08 dont use blackbord bold for powerset.... 00:35:08 ℙ(ℙ) "power set of prime set" 00:35:12 then there's the weirstrass P function 00:35:31 then there's the weirstrass function 00:35:40 math's notation is such a fucking trainwreck at times 00:35:41 i think mathcal is the proper font to use? i'm fairly certain i've seen mathsf and mathscr though 00:36:20 fortunately there's not much confusion with the latter because the weirstrass function is never actually used as a function 00:36:45 nooodl: at times/most of the time really 00:36:49 "at times" 00:37:08 well sometimes it's really good & clever 00:37:13 What does the "sf" in mathsf stand for? 00:37:19 sans serif 00:37:27 nooodl, it helps if you remember that it's still mostly written by hand 00:37:30 nooodl: like.... 00:37:39 numbers 00:37:49 "This combinator is provided for compatibility with Parsec. Attoparsec parsers always backtrack on failure." 00:37:51 * Sgeo_ likes that 00:38:01 have you ever looked at a 9 00:38:05 and there are a load of ways to write any given symbols 00:38:05 like really looked at a 9 00:38:20 its a gargoyle 00:38:22 9 is pretty heck but i love 7 so it makes up for it 00:38:22 Like, an actual 9, or a numeral 9? 00:38:25 4 is p.good too 00:38:34 7's a good numeral 00:38:35 2 is my favourite 00:38:41 2 is p.good too 00:38:43 surely someone out there has had the zany idea to reinvent the notation for Everything 00:38:44 except you have to dash the 7 00:38:47 for ambiguity reasons 00:38:49 and then it looks not so good 00:38:52 i always dash my 7s 00:38:52 because those times when you nail it and it has an elegant curl in the tail are the best things ever 00:38:55 i love dashes on 7s 00:38:57 i hate 1 because you need to make it all fancy to avoid ambiguity 00:39:00 nooodl: you have no idea 00:39:01 i also give my 7s cute little hooks 00:39:05 and its also the caues of the 7 Ambiguity Problem 00:39:12 2 is pgood imo 00:39:16 sometimes my 7s look like my ts, or maybe it's more that my ts look like my 7s 00:39:17 5 is quite nice too 00:39:20 also i wrote out a 4 the other day and one of my coworkers stopped me for two minutes to ask me about how i wrote it 00:39:25 "i've never seen someone write a 4 like that" 00:39:26 monqy: whats your handwriting look like 00:39:26 jesus. i write my 2s like a normal person and it makes them look a lot like Zs or zs 00:39:38 elliott: hm 00:39:41 i like how the variable x looks but im so bad at writing it 00:39:44 so i lovehate it?? 00:39:53 x is christian propaganda 00:39:57 i came up with the perfect way of writing x 00:40:01 i was so proud 00:40:05 my x is literally an x 00:40:08 two lines 00:40:15 gross nooodl 00:40:16 real gross 00:40:17 it's like )/( 00:40:18 maximal gross 00:40:24 you're disgusting, rectify yourself 00:40:41 but once you get the hang of it the / runs together and it looks great 00:41:19 this is the only picture of my math handwriting i've got https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/snow/IMAG0043.jpg 00:41:38 which is probably 1 more picture than the average person 00:42:06 elliott already knows what my "math handwriting" looks like 00:42:22 elliott: i have a few copeies of me trying to handwrite on my tablet from a while ago...there's an aspect ratio problem which messes up my hand-eye coordination so it's kind of eugh 00:42:37 dumb question again, how do i write "numLongChains long max = length $ longChains long max" in that fancyass pointless style 00:42:42 i have this thing too which is normal writing and it's very real 00:42:45 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/snow/IMAG0046.jpg 00:42:47 my handwriting is an abomination 00:42:55 but it looks quite nice locally 00:43:07 Bike, you can ask lambdabot 00:43:08 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 00:43:17 @pl numLongChains long max = length $ longChains long max 00:43:17 nvm figured it out 00:43:17 numLongChains = (length .) . longChains 00:43:19 Bike: numLongChains = length .: longChains 00:43:24 love you dots 00:43:25 note how nooodl double-spaces his work and sets it all out neatly 00:43:34 this is wasteful and capitalist 00:43:37 i use latex for math 00:43:45 writing is for losers 00:43:59 monqy: i can't do that at school!!! 00:44:17 wait is this linguistics 00:44:21 elliott: gosh i have 6 pictures of me trying to handwrite and they're all sorta different 00:44:35 elliott: i forget what i did differently each time except for handwriting6.png 00:44:37 i want to see monqys trying to handwrite 00:44:43 i want to use latex but why does it have to have all that madness with \doctype and headings and everything 00:44:52 btw i have worse handwriting than any of you 00:44:59 latex is literally the worst thing 00:45:04 that i've ever used 00:45:12 nooodl: dont use (.:) 00:45:13 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting.png 00:45:14 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting2.png 00:45:15 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting23.png 00:45:16 dont tell people to use (.:) 00:45:16 er 00:45:19 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting3.png 00:45:20 cry instead........... 00:45:21 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting4.png 00:45:24 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting5.png 00:45:26 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting6.png 00:45:29 there thats all of them 00:45:30 are you going to tell me to use (.).(.) 00:45:31 enjoy 00:45:33 if so i'm going to cry 00:45:34 (handwriting23 does not exist) 00:45:40 im going to tell you to add a fuckn point 00:45:43 dont use (.).(.)............................... 00:45:52 what the heck is .: 00:45:53 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:45:58 Bike: it doesnt exist 00:46:00 sry 00:46:02 holy shit. monqy's handwriting 00:46:02 monqy: shit your handwriting is nice 00:46:02 k 00:46:03 can i rent it out 00:46:03 is so good 00:46:07 @src (.:) 00:46:07 Source not found. Do you think like you type? 00:46:16 monqy 00:46:20 Bike, it exists, but may be considered to be an excessive use of pointfree style 00:46:21 monqy 00:46:22 you dot your j 00:46:24 with a circle 00:46:26 go fuck yourself 00:46:27 well i dont like the unfilled dots 00:46:29 but apart from that 00:46:36 imo dijkstra has the best handwriting 00:46:40 imo monqy should dot his js with a heart 00:46:41 so you might as well give up now 00:46:42 when im writing with a real pen i think i use normal dots 00:46:48 here's a little "latex gem" 00:46:48 Although "exists" as in, "well-known", not "standard" 00:46:49 \chemname{\chemfig{C([2]-\lewis{024,Cl})([6]-\lewis{046,Cl})([:-150]-\lewis{357,Cl})([:-30]-\lewis{157,Cl})}}{Koolstoftetrachloride} 00:46:50 but with tablets i cant resist 00:46:54 @hoogle (.:) 00:46:54 No results found 00:47:14 U+24A38 COMBINING HEART ABOVE 00:47:27 Oh hey Aeson uses .: for something else 00:47:36 nooodl, well be fair 00:47:40 my hand writing is worse than nooodls by far tho 00:47:55 that's for a diagram, however you represent that textually it's going to be awkward 00:48:09 elliott, do you even need to write??? 00:48:20 i can write really neatly if i try 00:48:21 like my handwriting is honestly a 6 year olds 00:48:24 but i don't ever 00:48:30 its an awful scrawl 00:48:31 elliott: my handwriting is a 3 years olds?? 00:48:48 Cl 00:48:49 shachaf: do you even have any proof all i see is you syaing your handwriting is so much worse than everyone else's!! 00:48:53 >C-Cl 00:48:54 Cl 00:48:58 elliott: do you have proof!! 00:49:01 what now Phantom_Hoover!!!!! 00:49:25 I can write in cursive, but only words that only contain the letters a, e, h, i, n, o, s, and t. 00:49:40 There are a bunch of such words. 00:49:45 nooodl, good luck writing a transparent parser for that 00:49:55 transparser 00:50:08 I have a little sheet of paper on which I've written "anaesthesia antiatheist assassination ensheathe hastiness heathenishness hesitation honestness ..." 00:50:15 Sgeo_: you know, I think any function can be thought of as a parser. 00:50:18 "you don't need to parse pure beauty any further" 00:50:18 im going to try handwriting again 00:50:29 the entire point of latex is that you give it a general representation and leave the typesetting details to it 00:50:45 i think dijkstras handwriting is still a bit better than monqys 00:50:45 PArrows is unmaintained :( 00:50:48 mostly since its smaller 00:50:57 my handwriting is smaller than that irl 00:51:00 Phantom_Hoover: fsvo all of that 00:51:03 -!- md_5 has joined. 00:51:04 but my tablet setup is miserable 00:51:09 and i dont have a scanner or anything 00:51:10 Help what is handwriting 00:51:19 monqy: by smaller i mean... less fussy mainly??? as in less ... "area" 00:51:22 i stole my f's from dijkstra 00:51:22 > " 00:51:22 " 00:51:24 :1:2: 00:51:24 lexical error in string/character literal at end of input 00:51:25 i dont know how to express the meaning 00:51:27 ah 00:51:28 Hmm. 00:51:30 but they don't look like dijkstra f's anymore... 00:51:33 yeah my handwriting is pretty fussy 00:51:46 > "\ 00:51:47 \" 00:51:48 is there a good nooodl f in that image 00:51:48 :1:3: 00:51:48 unexpected end-of-file in string/character literal at end ... 00:52:04 > "\ \" 00:52:06 "" 00:52:22 yeah https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15495351/snow/IMAG0046.jpg there's "koffie" near the bottom right corner 00:52:31 > ":\ \-\&)" 00:52:32 ":-)" 00:52:41 elliott: if you come to america ill show you my handwriting 00:52:43 nooodl: all these words are spelled wrong 00:52:49 > "ele\ \phant" 00:52:51 and they don't mean anything? 00:52:51 "elephant" 00:52:59 you must get awful grades in english 00:53:07 whats your favorite word on this page elliott 00:53:19 is that one "misbrain" 00:53:26 i like "ziet" 00:53:28 or maybe the one that looks like "groudshroffen" 00:53:30 it's "misbruik" :( 00:53:40 "holouie"? 00:53:44 ziet is good too yes 00:53:45 what does ziet mean 00:53:46 "grondstoffen", "kolonie" 00:53:51 "ziet" means "sees" 00:54:00 "Suiher"? 00:54:06 ziet seems like the kind of word that always wants to have a ! after it 00:54:07 Ziet! 00:54:10 that's "suiker" (sugar) 00:54:26 "aanshelling"? 00:54:31 elliott: that's actually some kind of old-fashioned imperative 00:54:52 "aanstelling" i don't even know how to translate that 00:54:56 is it like 00:54:58 "Observe!!!" 00:55:14 That's not a "t", though, that's an "h". 00:55:16 Observereth Thee 00:55:17 Aanshelling. 00:55:39 that's just because i'm bad at writing letters :( 00:56:22 i can see what happened, though. wanted to write a 't', and then i had to lower my pen a bit to start writing the 'e', but i didn't lift it from the paper, whoops 00:57:06 ziettttttttttttttttttttttttttt!!!! 00:57:39 > fix(concat.(zipWith.flip.sequence$sequence[const pure,(tail.).replicate])(cycle[1,2])) 00:57:40 Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> c0' with actual type `[a1]' 00:57:50 i wrote "longChains long max = filter ((> long) . length) (map chain [1..max])". is my "style" an insult to all that is holy or 00:57:50 no way that would work on first try 00:57:51 monqy: i just thought of a really awful pun 00:57:51 aanstelling is "appointment, commission, nomination" 00:57:53 do you want to hear it 00:57:57 elliott: can i hear it 00:58:00 no 00:58:04 oh 00:58:11 can i; did i inspire it 00:58:13 i like awful puns..... 00:58:15 :t sequence$sequence[const pure,(tail.).replicate] 00:58:17 Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `b0 -> a1' 00:58:17 In the return type of a call of `const' 00:58:17 Probable cause: `const' is applied to too few arguments 00:58:32 :t sequence$sequence[const pure] 00:58:33 Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `b0 -> a1' 00:58:33 In the return type of a call of `const' 00:58:33 Probable cause: `const' is applied to too few arguments 00:58:36 ooh http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/ziet this page actually has "Ziet!" on it 00:58:39 that's great 00:58:39 hmph 00:59:05 :t sequence$sequence[] 00:59:07 [[a]] 00:59:21 nooodl: you probably want en.wiktionary 00:59:26 foo.wiktionary.org means entries are in language foo 00:59:29 they all cover all languages 00:59:37 whats the pun 00:59:38 tho en.wiktionary's ziet doesn't have ziet! 00:59:40 so never mind??? 00:59:43 monqy: ok here it is 00:59:46 q: what did the great film written by a mathematician have? 00:59:49 a: a super script 00:59:52 en.wiktionary.org covers less dutch stuff :( 00:59:53 :| 00:59:53 : D 01:00:01 @hoogle (Functor f) => (a -> b -> a) -> a -> f b -> a 01:00:02 Data.Foldable foldl :: Foldable t => (a -> b -> a) -> a -> t b -> a 01:00:02 Data.Foldable foldl' :: Foldable t => (a -> b -> a) -> a -> t b -> a 01:00:03 Data.IntMap foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> IntMap b -> a 01:00:07 you know you love it 01:00:10 oh 01:00:12 i'm smiling pretty hard at elliott's pun 01:01:01 Bike: how would "that work" exactly 01:01:37 how would ""what work"" 01:01:39 guess it wouldn't 01:01:50 folds over functors 01:02:01 oh 01:02:06 Bike: but Functor f? 01:02:14 what? 01:02:21 well did you mean Foldable 01:02:29 Functor only provides (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 01:02:33 so i'm not sure what your operation is meant to do 01:02:34 yes i see 01:02:45 it is meant to go "huh [] is a functor isn't it!!" because 01:03:51 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/handwriting-hell.png i tried a few takes 01:03:59 just now 01:04:01 100% modern 01:04:09 good lord 01:04:09 monqy's handwriting is graffiti 01:04:13 it's so amazing 01:04:46 if i'm trying to make it particularly legible it gets boring 01:05:02 that's the handwriting dilemma! 01:05:55 hm, i have to specify Prelude.foldl or Data.Foldable.foldl even if i'm just folding a list so it's the same 01:06:37 > fix(concat.zipWith(\x n -> x:replicate(n-1)x)(cycle[1,2])) 01:06:40 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 01:06:44 > fix(concat.zipWith(\x n -> x:replicate(n-1)x)(cycle[1,2])) 01:06:48 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 01:06:52 > "hi" 01:06:53 "hi" 01:07:09 possibly something is wrong here 01:07:14 where's fix again, i want fix 01:07:16 oh right 01:07:23 @hoogle fix 01:07:23 Control.Monad.Fix module Control.Monad.Fix 01:07:23 Data.Fixed module Data.Fixed 01:07:23 Data.Function fix :: (a -> a) -> a 01:07:28 rad 01:09:30 hm, i have to specify Prelude.foldl or Data.Foldable.foldl even if i'm just folding a list so it's the same 01:09:39 you're meant to import Foldable qualified, or hide the functions from Prelude 01:09:58 i'm sure, i was just wondering if it would subsume the prelude definition 01:10:11 monqy: your handwriting got smudgier 01:10:14 did you leave it out in the rain 01:10:34 * tswett ponders Tweeling. 01:10:41 elliott: gimp update =/ 01:10:50 That type II Reidemeister move thing is going to be difficult to realize. 01:10:53 it got a new pen tool interface 01:11:13 or do you mean the shapes of the letters 01:11:16 it might have gotten smudgier 01:11:33 i mean the shading 01:11:39 oh yeah that's gimp 01:11:53 -!- augur has joined. 01:24:32 `log *forcefield* 01:24:35 grep: nothing to repeat 01:24:52 `log .*forcefield.*{{ 01:25:17 you don't need the first .* 01:25:24 No output. 01:25:28 hm 01:25:33 k nevermind 01:25:49 `log forcefield 01:25:57 2009-10-11.txt:06:42:55: * ehird erects anti-swatting forcefield around himself 01:26:15 `pastelog forcefield 01:26:32 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5952 01:26:36 * oerjan gives elliott a very delayed swat -----### 01:26:49 hehe 01:27:42 is elliott a fly 01:27:47 wait, maybe it is not right to punish elliott for that terrible 2009 person 01:27:47 actually i'm looking for the cats with the heart shaped eyes^^ 01:28:01 nooodl: not to my knowledge. 01:28:02 (char) 01:29:18 punishing cannot be elliott 01:29:28 punishing elliott cannot be wrong 01:29:30 this way 01:29:32 "impomatic, why would the switch to the forcefield be inside the asylum?" good lo 01:29:46 " ⌇⌇forcefields⌇⌇" definitely a good log 01:30:01 that must my cats :( 01:30:08 _someone_ hasn't set up their charset properly. 01:30:09 they didn't make it 01:30:11 what's a cat 01:31:02 http://esolangs.org/wiki/CAT 01:31:11 it's just an object in the something of small somethings 01:32:20 `? monoid 01:32:22 Monoids are just categories with a single object. 01:32:37 `? category 01:32:39 Categories are just a special case of bicategories. 01:32:51 `? object 01:32:53 An object is just something in a category. 01:34:18 -!- madbr has joined. 01:37:26 ^ord ⌇⌇forcefields⌇⌇ 01:37:26 195 162 197 146 226 128 161 195 162 197 146 226 128 161 102 111 114 99 101 102 105 101 108 100 115 195 162 197 146 226 128 161 195 162 197 146 226 128 161 01:39:58 how can do boolean bitwise comparison on two integers in haskell ..bytes for example 01:40:41 ^ord A 01:40:41 65 01:41:11 ^ord (B && A) 01:41:11 40 66 32 38 38 32 65 41 01:41:21 ^ord (B & A) 01:41:21 40 66 32 38 32 65 41 01:41:32 ^ord (B|A) 01:41:33 40 66 124 65 41 01:41:49 ^ord ("B"|"A") 01:41:50 40 34 66 34 124 34 65 34 41 01:42:03 ^ord (65|64) 01:42:03 40 54 53 124 54 52 41 01:42:26 > 65||64 01:42:28 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool) 01:42:28 arising from the literal `6... 01:42:43 > 65 .|. 64 01:42:44 @let a = ( 65||64 ) 01:42:45 65 01:42:45 :2:7: 01:42:45 No instance for (Num Bool) 01:42:45 arising from the literal... 01:42:56 > 65 .&. 64 01:42:58 64 01:43:03 k 01:44:21 ^help 01:44:22 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 01:44:41 ^bool 8 01:44:49 ^help bool 01:44:49 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 01:44:55 ^str 0 get 01:44:55 +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>++++++.>++++++.<<----.>----------------------------------.<----.>>+++.<<-----------.+.>>>.<++++++.<<-.>>-----.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------.<+.>>++.>+++++.<<<+.>>>+.<-.<.>----------------------.<++++++++++++.------------.>----------------------.<<------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.<---.<++++.++++++++.>- 01:45:11 v. elegant 01:45:57 ^str 1 get 01:45:57 >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[< 01:46:04 wow 01:46:38 ^bf str:0 01:49:02 ^show prefixes 01:49:02 +15[>+8>+4>+7>+7<4-]>2+6.>+6.<2-4.>-34.<-4.>2+3.<2-11.+.>3.<+6.<2-.>2-5.<+26.-26.<+.>2+2.>+5.<3+.>3+.<-.<.>-22.<+12.-12.>-22.<2-6.>+67.>2-4.<-3.<+4.+8.>-37.<2-.>2+12.-12.<2-27.>3-4.<2.<-3.>.+5.>.+.+11.-12.>+5.-11.+12.-11.+2.-3.+.+13.<2.>.<2-2.>2.>.<2-2.>.>-48.-19.<.<+2.<+40.>+.-.+.<-6.+13.>-.>.>-.+.<.<2-2.-8.>.<-4.>-.<+4.+11.>-10.-8.>.<2+14.>3.<.<+9.>+67.<+5.-..>2-12.+9.+3.-12.<-.<-2.<-11.-2.>2.+13.<2+3.>3.+. 01:49:30 str:0 contains the code for prefixes 01:50:57 it is possible the str:n syntax only works in ^def, not plain ^bf 01:51:23 @hoogle & 01:51:24 Prelude (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool 01:51:24 Data.Bool (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool 01:51:24 Control.Arrow (&&&) :: Arrow a => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c') 01:51:34 huh, why no & anywhere? 01:51:44 it's in Data.Lens now :) 01:51:49 er, *Control.Lens 01:52:02 it's just flip ($), anyway 01:52:29 i just meant the identifier. i would have expected & instead of .&., that sort of thing 01:52:46 i don't know why no one used it before 01:52:51 oh wait 01:53:07 it's probably because they couldn't use | as that's syntax 01:53:18 so they made it .&. by analogy with .|. 01:53:30 && || 01:53:42 would be familiar at least 01:53:49 yes 01:54:00 oh, right 01:54:06 hagb4rd: those are the booleans. 01:54:12 haskell is basically just glorified C right 01:54:23 BASICALLY 01:54:35 :t (<&>) 01:54:36 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:54:36 Functor f => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b 01:54:45 wat 01:54:48 cool 01:54:51 > (0$0<&>) 01:54:52 > 64>>1 01:54:53 The operator `Control.Lens.Combinators.<&>' [infixl 1] of a section 01:54:53 mu... 01:54:54 can't find file: L.hs 01:55:01 > A>>1 01:55:04 Not in scope: data constructor `A' 01:55:04 > 64 `shiftL` 1 01:55:06 128 01:55:11 have you considered: documentation 01:55:32 no 01:55:57 behold http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.2.0.1/doc/html/Data-Bits.html 01:55:59 i'm not really out for sth 01:56:39 maybe for some conversation 01:56:43 MAYBE 01:57:12 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:57:15 what's sth 01:57:29 conversation is such a dirty word 01:57:32 btw 01:57:42 :t ($$) 01:57:43 Doc -> Doc -> Doc 01:57:50 doc 01:58:14 oh right 01:58:31 stupid operator, does some silly vertical merging 01:58:47 unlike the intuitive $+$ version 01:59:27 > text "like" $$ nest 4 (text "this") -- maybe 01:59:29 like 01:59:29 this 01:59:34 hmph 01:59:39 > text "like" $$ nest 5 (text "this") -- maybe 01:59:39 deep 01:59:40 like this 01:59:51 seems it wants at least a space 01:59:56 > text "like" $+$ nest 5 (text "this") -- maybe 01:59:57 like 01:59:57 this 02:00:22 (lambdabot has an extra space on the first line) 02:03:16 -!- carado has joined. 02:08:26 i can understand that they might want $$ for haskell do blocks and the like, but not making it the default vertical combiner. 02:09:40 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:39:51 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:40:22 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:50:27 > 2^31 02:50:29 2147483648 02:50:39 > 2^32 `div` 3 02:50:41 1431655765 02:52:04 > length . filter (< 2^30) . take 1000 . randomRS (0,1431655765) $ mkStdGen 42 02:52:06 Not in scope: `randomRS' 02:52:06 Perhaps you meant one of these: 02:52:06 `randomR' (imp... 02:52:12 > length . filter (< 2^30) . take 1000 . randomRs (0,1431655765) $ mkStdGen 42 02:52:15 662 02:52:41 > 2^30/1431655766 * 1000 02:52:42 749.999999650754 02:52:52 * oerjan whistles innocently 02:53:26 oh wait 02:53:48 > length . filter (< 1431655765 `div` 2) . take 1000 . randomRs (0,1431655765) $ mkStdGen 42 02:53:50 332 02:55:08 > genRange (undefined :: StdGen) 02:55:10 (0,2147483562) 02:56:02 > 2 * genRange (undefined :: StdGen) `div` 3 02:56:04 No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral (GHC.Types.Int, GHC.Types.Int)) 02:56:04 arisi... 02:56:06 oops 02:56:16 > 2 * snd (genRange (undefined :: StdGen)) `div` 3 02:56:18 1431655708 02:57:09 :t genRange 02:57:10 RandomGen g => g -> (Int, Int) 02:58:44 > length . filter (< 1431655708 `div` 2) . take 1000 . randomRs (0,1431655708) $ mkStdGen 42 02:58:46 332 02:59:22 hm i thought the discrepancy would be the other way around... 03:06:07 it's pretty bad, anyway :P 03:07:17 (basically System.Random uses mod to generate random integrals.) 03:08:34 System.Random is kind of awful 03:08:39 it's also too lazy 03:17:40 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:17:49 Just using mod is not good enough by itself though 03:18:15 isn't that the point 03:18:17 no, it makes it potentially awful, as i demonstrated. 03:18:24 There are ways to improve it, though. 03:18:30 half the range is twice as likely as the other 03:18:53 although i don't understand why it's _that_ half and not the other :P 03:19:25 Yes, and I thought of that when programming TeXnicard, and other programs, too. 03:19:46 Notice that the Pokemon card named DIGGER also makes probabilities such as 2/3 with coins, is another way. 03:19:59 You also need good quality random number generators. Is ARCFOUR good enough? 03:20:41 Is ARCFOUR+delay+microphone good enough? (This is what Famicom Hangman uses) 03:20:46 i have no idea about that bit :P 03:20:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:21:10 i just had a look in System.Random's code, noticed the ominous `mod`, and wanted to test it 03:21:49 (i originally wanted to see how well it deals with unusual genRanges. the answer to that is: not at all. 03:21:53 ) 03:22:20 it simply assumes genRange is the same as for stdGen. 03:22:32 and _still_ manages to do things badly for that. 03:22:44 *StdGen 03:23:49 presumably it's still ok as long as the range is tiny, and for floats. 03:34:51 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/5280 03:44:28 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk). 04:05:12 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 04:31:06 Time to try to break my brain thinking about a language based off Trustfuck 04:31:13 Let's call it Trustfuck-- 04:31:36 As though it were a prior version of Trustfuck. 04:32:26 All I'm going to say for now, while I go to make food and think 04:39:22 dont just leave us hanging 04:43:17 Maybe ! should just do trustfuck primitives, rather than "current language" primitives, and a primitive be added for quines, and some other features to make converting ! to mean "current language" a relatively simple task 04:44:47 Although now I'm wondering if something vaguely inspired by Feather might be a good idea 04:45:01 Would ais523 be mad if I called a language "Featherfuck"? 04:45:37 does the vague inspiration involve time travel? if not you're fine 04:47:26 Either reruning code or doing some fixed-point thingamabob 04:48:23 Haven't thought through the fixed-point thing well enough to know if it's even a coherent thought, although probably not 05:03:50 In disadvantages of ropes, the Wikipedia article says "Increased complexity of source code; greater risk for bugs" 05:03:54 zzo38: your Famicom Hangman game uses RC4 as a random number generator? 05:04:08 Isn't that what code reuse is for? Does any non-library actually re-implement ropes? 05:05:27 in the real world code reuse is not so much a thing 05:06:04 :( 05:09:54 kmc: Yes it does use RC4 as a random number generator, and it runs several times per frame. It also uses the microphone, if there is one. 05:15:48 Is it good enough? 05:39:03 -!- ogrom has joined. 05:43:10 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 05:56:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:00:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:13:13 `smlist 06:13:18 smlist: shachaf monqy elliott 06:13:33 “a responsibility„ 06:21:51 With great power comes great utility bills 06:23:04 yes 06:29:47 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 06:31:20 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 06:43:36 28.8 kilobonghits per second 06:44:34 I dunno, "kibibonghit" flows better. 06:44:53 Are those imperial or nautical bonghits 06:45:30 Avoirdupois. 07:44:03 What would you use if *you* are making Famicom Hangman? 08:02:49 monqy: thonqy 08:06:01 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:16:52 -!- azaq23 has joined. 08:18:59 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:31:05 -!- aloril has joined. 08:46:14 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:47:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:52:19 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:55:15 > let i = (:+) 0 in 4 + i 2 08:55:18 4.0 :+ 2.0 09:10:22 -!- nooga has joined. 09:10:42 -!- nooodl has joined. 09:11:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:32:42 could someone explain me why n-cycle clears with n > 1 is any better than 1-cycled in bf joust? 09:35:11 i.e. i don't see the advantage of [-.] over [-]. 09:45:01 -!- carado has joined. 09:56:55 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:59:24 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:02:26 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 10:02:31 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:09:42 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 10:10:21 -!- nooga has joined. 10:14:47 -!- Frooxius has joined. 10:54:55 -!- cookienugget has quit. 10:56:35 -!- cookienugget has joined. 11:01:55 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:02:36 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:04:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:25:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:25:25 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:32:32 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:33:44 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 11:52:48 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 11:56:14 -!- nooga has joined. 12:12:08 -!- cookienugget has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:17:00 -!- mroman_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:17:14 -!- mroman has joined. 12:27:10 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:28:21 -!- carado has joined. 12:45:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:45:40 -!- wareya_ has joined. 12:46:27 -!- cookienugget has joined. 12:47:58 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:51:14 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 13:12:08 -!- Jafet has joined. 13:38:10 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:49:57 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 14:19:12 A fully functional in-browser clone of SimCity. http://tholman.com/playable-simcity-2013/ 14:19:38 Not fully functional enough! 14:19:40 Or too full... 14:19:44 Server's busy 14:20:53 ion, but it's online-only! 14:21:06 it seems folks demand it 14:21:14 (Please tell me it has local saves.) 14:22:43 game saving is for wimps 14:23:12 nightmare mode(tm) forever! 14:23:49 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 14:47:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:36:11 -!- nooga has joined. 15:53:10 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:54:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:05:51 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:19:45 Taneb: :( 16:20:13 Is that :( at my Arrow explanation or my Applicative explanation 16:20:26 I'm presuming my Arrow explanation although my Applicative explanation did suck 16:23:50 it was at "(<*>) takes a thing full of functions, and a thing full of inputs to the function, and applies the functions and the inputs in some way, then combines the rest of the things together 16:23:54 " 16:26:39 How is that inaccurate or misleading 16:28:30 well "thing full of" and the plural........... 16:28:48 you can have stuff where the "functions" branch on an undetermined amount of input etc. where the container analogy kinda breaks down 16:30:03 Analogies break down eventually 16:30:05 -!- Bike has joined. 16:30:55 well imo it's a bad idea to give people things that will confuse them when they get to stuff like that because they've been given preconceptions...... especially when there's a lot of bad tutorials they can read if they really want analogies 16:31:00 but it wasn't a really big frown 16:36:59 On another note, ekmett added me to another repo 16:37:00 Help 16:37:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:41:31 @hoogle [a] -> ([a],a,[a]) 16:41:32 No results found 16:42:39 i just sigh whenever i get another email about that now 16:43:13 -!- nooga has joined. 16:44:01 :t \pivot:xs -> (filter (pivot <=) xs,pivot,filter (> pivot) xs) 16:44:02 parse error on input `:' 16:44:08 :t \(pivot:xs) -> (filter (pivot <=) xs,pivot,filter (> pivot) xs) 16:44:10 Ord a => [a] -> ([a], a, [a]) 16:44:18 I have a feeling that I'm the only person who's been added to tables 16:45:05 :t \(x:xs) -> (xs,x,xs) -- boring 16:45:07 [t] -> ([t], t, [t]) 16:45:39 :t \(x:xs) -> ([],x,xs) -- maybe what nooodl wants 16:45:40 [t] -> ([a], t, [t]) 16:46:29 hmm, i just realized i actually want 16:46:29 @hoogle Int -> [a] -> ([a],a,[a]) 16:46:30 No results found 16:46:56 but splitAt is close enough 16:47:28 f = (\(a,b:c) -> (a,b,c)) . splitAt 16:50:00 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:52:39 nooodl: dont do that 16:52:51 also that f is wrong but mainly dont do that 16:53:19 i need (.).(.) don't i 16:53:31 also what's wrong, i might not actually be doing the wrong thing anymore 16:54:08 well using indices into lists is generally a bad idea 16:55:03 are you essentially saying "don't use (!!)" here 16:55:11 Yes he is 16:55:14 I agree with elliott 16:55:31 well.... i'm fairly sure i do need indices sorry 16:55:41 Then use a structure other than lists 16:55:54 I think that's the point 16:56:08 this is from that lyah exercise thingy 16:56:11 naw O(n) access is the shit bro 16:56:27 it's asking me to write a binary search function on list that also logs using Writer 16:56:36 i know it's not something you'd actually do... 16:57:33 well if the lyah exercises want you to do bad things then imho they're bad exercises! 16:57:44 but i doubt you need indices to do binary search on [] 16:57:49 also from the example it's apparent that the guy who made the exercise solved it wrong himself 16:58:13 how're you going to find the center without indices 16:58:44 imo these exercises sound shit and you should stop doing them? 16:59:19 they're better than the alternative of "no exercises" 16:59:25 Do them better 16:59:41 Figure out how to use arrays and implement binary search with them 17:00:36 this solution probably wouldn't require a lot of changes to work with Array! i might do that 17:01:04 too bad Array sucks too :( 17:01:35 what should i use then 17:01:49 so what do you use if you want arrays, in haskell 17:01:53 man, this type signature is growing to be pretty large 17:01:55 binarySearch :: (Show a, Ord a, Eq a, Monoid b) => (a -> a -> b) -> a -> Array Int a -> Writer b Bool 17:02:04 Vectors unless something new's come up since 17:02:22 why does it even say Ord a, Eq a 17:02:24 nooodl: Ord includes Eq 17:02:27 instead of just Ord a 17:02:27 yes 17:02:51 How do arrays suck? 17:02:54 Too many of them? 17:03:43 Bike: vector or maybe repa or something but sometimes array is the only non-annoying option 17:03:47 but then it's annoying because it's array 17:03:48 http://u.arboreus.com/2011/03/how-to-choose-haskell-array-library.html has some stuff 17:04:06 wow a table 17:04:18 sorry "feature matrix" 17:04:40 wait, why does it not have access time for Data.Array. 17:04:56 hmm i'll use Vector 17:05:00 that sounds interesting 17:05:14 do they just suck that much 17:05:30 import qualified Data.Vector as V 17:05:36 is this evil, it feels evil 17:06:41 Bike: Possibly because the Ix class can be arbitrarily slow? 17:06:45 Not sure 17:07:51 holy shit 17:07:54 O(1) take? 17:08:33 Since it's immutable it doesn't have to copy anything, so of course 17:08:39 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 17:08:47 ugh who thought "snoc" was a good name for snoc 17:10:47 snoc is fine 17:11:03 Deewiant: (bad GC properties :( ) 17:12:11 elliott: Yeah GCs kinda suck like that 17:12:39 i crashed winghci 17:12:53 Congrats 17:13:00 there should be a way to do the copying of the "take"d elements when the original array gets freed 17:13:03 like copying GC style 17:13:30 Hey, anyone here know the best way to get a C++11 into Haskell 17:13:46 give up 17:13:47 Vector should be able to tell the GC that a given reference only needs a certain slice of the data 17:13:53 more generally give up on binding C++ to haskell 17:15:09 -!- carado has joined. 17:16:02 yeah, "V.enumFromN 1 1000000000" is crashing ghci but i don't know what i expected 17:16:10 i mean. that's a pretty big vector 17:16:37 do you need a billion element vector for something 17:16:48 That's N gigabytes where N is the type's size (so probably Int's size) 17:17:07 testing this binary search function!! 17:17:35 don't you think four gigabytes is a bit much for testing 17:18:19 ghc thinks so at least 17:18:44 nooodl: "maxBound :: Int" 17:19:28 nooodl : maxBound : Int 17:19:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:19:56 Hello 17:20:42 what is love 17:20:56 yes 17:21:20 > (maxBound - minBound) :: Int 17:21:22 -1 17:21:24 cool 17:21:24 oh 17:21:42 Bike: why is love 17:22:27 red queen hth 17:22:44 HTH hth. 17:23:07 Hi everyone hth. How's it going hth? 17:23:30 pretty well 17:23:55 Good to hear hth. 17:24:49 Yesterday was the eighth hth. 17:26:07 Now, to which URL should speaking post. Should it post to character/n/speak/? Seems like as good a URL as any. 17:36:35 -!- Frooxius has joined. 17:41:00 -!- carado has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 17:41:50 -!- carado has joined. 17:46:56 -!- cookienugget has left. 17:47:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:48:43 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:12:49 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:26:42 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:29:06 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: bbl). 19:05:26 Trivia: the first track of every single album I've bought on its release day opened at number 2 in the UK singles chart 19:08:23 Hexham? More like MAX HEH 19:09:01 it's always a barrel of laughs up in hexham 19:10:25 good triviopodes 19:10:57 are those octopodes who won't shut up about star trek 19:11:44 yes 19:12:28 By the way, those two messages from me were completely unrelated 19:13:28 How can I search the esoteric logs? 19:15:09 you need to rsync them + grep 19:15:20 ¬_¬ 19:15:20 type !logs for the info 19:22:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:25:03 !logs 19:27:35 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:38:25 Hmmm... thanks. I only wondered the size of the Brainfuck Hello World I posted here... 19:41:44 ^ord ¬ 19:41:44 194 172 19:42:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:43:49 -!- nooodl has joined. 19:51:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:57:06 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:01:05 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:10:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:24:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:41:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:41:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:41:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 20:51:32 hm it seems impossible with haskell types to generalize Control.Lens.Iso.mapping to take a Setter instead of just a Functor instance 20:52:34 because the setter needs to be used at two different types 20:53:38 rank-2? 20:53:53 :t mapping 20:53:55 (Functor f1, Functor f, Profunctor p) => AnIso s t a b -> p (f a) (f1 (f b)) -> p (f s) (f1 (f t)) 20:53:58 oh right 20:54:09 ...if those two types have a common rank-2 expression you are halfway to Functor already :( 20:54:49 it could take two setters :P 20:55:31 yeah but that would ruin the point of my investigation, which was why wasn't mapping defined as mappingOf mapped in the first place 20:55:48 mappingOfOf mapped mapped 20:55:50 with great generalization possibilities 20:55:58 Clearly the way to go 20:56:47 oerjan: it doesn't have to be all the way to Functor because it only has to work with f/f1, right? 20:56:52 you could make it work with GADTs and stuff 20:57:31 elliott: f is the functor in question, f1 is the usual lens choosable one 20:57:44 er, right 20:58:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:58:13 it needs to map f a -> f s and f t -> f s 20:58:50 oops 20:59:11 * (a -> s) -> (f a -> f s) and (t -> b) -> (f t -> f b) 20:59:26 right 20:59:35 the definition of mapping is essentially mapping (iso sa bt) = iso (fmap sa) (fmap bt) 21:01:15 and you want to replace fmap by setter %~ 21:03:24 :t mapped %~ view swapped 21:03:25 (Functor f, Swapped p) => f (p a b) -> f (p b a) 21:04:25 wait what 21:04:40 oh right 21:04:50 rhyming with lenses 21:04:51 that gives you a Getter only 21:04:59 afaict 21:05:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:05:45 :t review 21:05:46 MonadReader b m => AReview s t a b -> m t 21:05:57 :t re 21:05:59 Gettable f => AReview s t a b -> (t -> f t) -> b -> f b 21:07:03 > review _Just 10 >>= \x -> lift [x] 21:07:05 Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe b0' 21:07:05 with actual... 21:07:47 :t review _Just 10 21:07:49 Num a => Maybe a 21:08:05 THAT WILL BE WHY 21:08:12 :t review _Just >>= \x -> lift [x] 21:08:14 (MonadTrans t, MonadReader b (t [])) => t [] (Maybe b) 21:08:24 > runReaderT (review _Just >>= \x -> lift [x]) 10 21:08:26 [Just 10] 21:09:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:09:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 21:09:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:09:41 :t review 21:09:42 MonadReader b m => AReview s t a b -> m t 21:11:36 01:32:54 could someone explain me why n-cycle clears with n > 1 is any better than 1-cycled in bf joust? 21:11:39 01:35:24 i.e. i don't see the advantage of [-.] over [-]. 21:12:24 it's because to win, you have to make the flag 0 for _two_ consecutive turns 21:12:39 oerjan: you do with [-]. 21:13:21 the opponent may be changing the flag during the ] step 21:13:40 so he may in [-.] 21:13:56 But in [-], if he does you just exit the loop 21:13:57 not unless he _also_ did it in the . step 21:14:06 In [-.], you start decrementing it again 21:14:57 in [-.], if you reach the ] you _know_ your last - didn't succeed, so you just start again. 21:15:09 well, i'd test something like [[-].] then 21:16:12 i'm not a bfjoust expert, but i expect all of which works best depends on the opponent's defence strategy 21:16:20 Does this statement help? 21:16:22 "If L is a language, f is a function L->Trustfuck, and g is the inverse of f (that is, a function Trustfuck->L), then g(",+[-:,+]!") is a compiler for L, not a compiler for Trustfuck." 21:17:09 Have I ever said that Trustfuck is ridiculous? 21:17:14 Taneb, how so? 21:17:22 Sgeo: it makes no mathematical sense to call that an inverse 21:17:50 Sgeo, really, it's your offhand comments about the consequences of Trustfuck that are ridiculous rather than the language itself 21:17:56 Which I don't understand due to lack of effort 21:18:12 oerjan, hmm 21:18:14 Taneb: dito 21:18:36 it does not give f(g(x)) the same semantics as x, obviously, which is the point of the statement of course 21:19:01 Why do you need to mention f at all 21:19:04 or well, neither is semantics-preserving. 21:20:18 If the semantics of ",+[-:,+]!" is "be a compiler for the current language" not "be a compiler for Trustfuck" 21:20:25 Does that... make it work? 21:20:34 I think that's what I'm trying to get at 21:20:52 no, because the current language doesn't use those characters at all, potentially :P 21:26:00 Hm. 21:26:16 and there my brain ran out of energy again. 21:26:41 I don't know if I know an accurate description 21:26:47 I should think about Trustfuck-- a bit 21:28:14 Hmm, this is a thought: 21:28:55 A compiler written in Trustfuck for a language L does not compile to Trustfuck before doing !, the way I've described 21:29:09 It compiles to... something else 21:29:48 A language similar to Trustfuck except a different meaning for ! 21:30:01 i would suggest trying to give a semantics of each language that makes no reference to more fundamental languages existing. 21:31:22 Hm? 21:31:30 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:32:13 or maybe not more than two neighboring levels 21:32:16 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:32:58 If L is a language, let L' be a language that is identical to Trustfuck except that ! accepts and compiles L code instead of Trustfuck code. 21:33:17 Wait, I think ! should never be stated to compile Trustfuck code. 21:34:00 Except along the same vein, L''s ! doesn't really take L code, does it? Because if L has an equvalent to !, then ... 21:41:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:52:00 -!- monqy has joined. 22:00:07 @hoogle runMaybeT 22:00:07 Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe runMaybeT :: MaybeT m a -> m (Maybe a) 22:00:47 erp, I wrote my code a bit backwards I think 22:01:10 Ending up with a Maybe (IO ()) 22:01:16 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 22:01:34 @hoogle a (b c) -> b (a c) 22:01:35 Data.Traversable sequenceA :: (Traversable t, Applicative f) => t (f a) -> f (t a) 22:01:35 Data.Traversable sequence :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) 22:01:35 Test.QuickCheck.Gen promote :: Monad m => m (Gen a) -> Gen (m a) 22:01:37 -!- kallisti1 has joined. 22:03:24 -!- kallisti_ has quit (Client Quit). 22:03:25 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 22:04:40 @hoogle sequenceM 22:04:41 No results found 22:04:49 :t sequence 22:04:51 Monad m => [m a] -> m [a] 22:04:53 Is Maybe traversable? 22:05:05 > sequence $ Just "hello" 22:05:07 Couldn't match expected type `[m0 a0]' 22:05:08 with actual type `Data.... 22:05:13 > Data.Traversable.sequence $ Just "hello" 22:05:15 [Just 'h',Just 'e',Just 'l',Just 'l',Just 'o'] 22:05:17 Yes 22:06:38 Doesn't quite seem to be working for me 22:06:54 oh, I see why 22:07:29 () <$ T.sequence mSendIt 22:07:36 I think I have just gone overboard 22:07:44 Doing that instead of putting a return () at the end 22:07:48 I may be the first person to ever have compared Order of the Stick to the University of Birmingham 22:08:36 Sgeo: that's Control.Monad.void 22:08:38 (yes, Monad, not Functor) 22:08:49 @hoogle void 22:08:50 Foreign.Marshal.Error void :: IO a -> IO () 22:08:50 Control.Monad void :: Functor f => f a -> f () 22:08:50 package void 22:08:56 Ah, ty 22:09:03 > void $ Just 2 22:09:06 Just () 22:09:11 > void "hello" 22:09:13 [(),(),(),(),()] 22:09:21 > void ("one", 2) 22:09:23 ("one",()) 22:09:32 Pairs are a functor? 22:09:38 Tuples are 22:09:41 Yes 22:09:54 instance Functor ((,) a) where fmap f (a, b) = (a, f b) 22:10:11 If the first argument is a monoid I think they're a monad 22:10:43 instance Monoid a => Monad ((,) a) where return = (,) mempty; (a, b) >>= f = let (a', c) = f b in (a `mappend` a', c) 22:11:05 (that's just Writer) 22:11:14 Sgeo: there are lots of instances. sorta wack to say pairs "are" a functor.............. especially since in some cases it's partially applied pairs 22:11:18 and in other cases 22:11:23 it's certain sortsa pairs 22:11:24 special pairs 22:11:30 pairs with only one sorta thing in them 22:11:37 data Pair a = Pair a a 22:12:14 instance Functor Pair where fmap f (Pair a a) = Pair (f a) (f a) 22:12:39 Modulo stupid names that overlap 22:16:13 Sgeo, how's that IRC thingy you're doing going 22:16:28 Taneb, did it 22:16:39 Some ugly parts 22:16:53 And config stuff is hard-coded 22:16:58 But it's meant to be a simple bot 22:17:31 Might make a bot that evaluates Piet 22:17:40 Rather than one written in piet 22:18:18 http://hpaste.org/83768 22:22:15 Err 22:22:23 Just realized that there's some unneeded code there 22:22:28 Sgeo: are you making an irc bot in piet? 22:22:35 Just pretrend lines 25-26 don't exist 22:22:46 And line 24 22:32:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:42:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:49:44 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 22:53:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:53:34 -!- Taneb has joined. 22:53:40 question of the day: what kind of sane person uses lowercase xi 22:54:40 xi? 22:54:40 i see lowercase xi every so often 22:54:49 but uppercase xi, now that's crazy 22:56:34 uppercase xi is ok as long as it's not sans serif 22:56:48 uppercase sans serif xi is the abomination unto nature 22:56:57 but lowercase xi is so damn hard to write! 22:57:02 same for zeta 22:57:20 except it's slightly less fiddly 22:57:34 well thankfully the greeks are fucking dead 22:57:37 so you don't have to write greek any more 22:57:39 8-) 22:59:30 you realise that in that case everyone will just write the normal alphabet in weird ways 22:59:32 you have to think of it in steps. ς → ζ → ξ 23:00:05 The greeks aren't dead, just economically oh no'd 23:00:12 ah, you meant xi the greek letter? reminds me of an old calculus lecturer who used the same squiggle for every greek letter, ln and cos 23:00:29 olsner, sound awful 23:01:18 not all bad though, the unreadable formulas does sort of force you to pay attention to what's being written and what it means 23:01:21 ς is just an s. ζ is just ς with a line above it. ξ is just ζ with a dent in it 23:01:49 one of my lecturers is greek 23:02:04 he writes beta as what is for all intents and purposes an ordinary b 23:03:23 i.e. he uses the ordinary b instead of the latin b? 23:04:21 Is return being in Monad rather than Functor a quirk? 23:04:29 No 23:04:37 It should be in Applicative if anywhere 23:04:42 Functors do NOT have return 23:04:48 (necessarily) 23:04:59 Bike, typeclass organisation is a mess, iirc 23:05:06 Monad is detached from the rest of the hierarchy for historical reasons 23:05:11 Yes, but I want to know if this is a mess or something I'm misunderstanding. 23:05:20 "pure" in Applicative is what return should be 23:05:30 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:05:35 Since I thought mathematical functors mapped objects in addition to morphisms. 23:05:39 Bike, not all functors have an equivalent to return 23:05:41 Bike: "f" maps the object 23:05:48 an object in Hask is a *type* 23:05:54 and Functor models endofunctors (functors Hask -> Hask) 23:05:56 What's return :: a -> (Void, a)? 23:06:07 so if you have a Functor instance f 23:06:15 then f Int is mapping the object Int 23:06:21 and fmap maps morphisms (functions) 23:06:35 and fmap (Int -> Int) maps the morphism. 23:06:51 i.e. a functor takes the morphism f : A -> B to F(f) : F(A) -> F(B), where F(X) is mapping the object X 23:07:00 Bike: erm, that's not valid syntax, but sure 23:07:14 ...in this case, a functor takes the morphism f :: Int -> String to fmap f :: F Int -> F String 23:07:16 psh syntax 23:07:35 ok, that makes sense. 23:08:08 (actually Functor models something ridiculous like functors mapping Hask to the subcategory of Hask where only types of the form (f a) are objects or such) 23:08:12 (but that doesn't really matter) 23:08:24 Sounds elegant. 23:10:08 ^list 23:10:08 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 23:10:19 Thanks 23:10:23 erm, false alarm possibly 23:10:26 No 23:10:30 what is ^list for 23:10:39 you dont want to know 23:10:43 nooodl, notifying about Homestuck updates 23:10:45 annoying s h a c h a f mostly? 23:11:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:11:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 23:11:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:11:18 the new homestuck updates look really boring 23:11:19 * Fiora cherub time? 23:11:24 Bike, nah, he's not on the ^list 23:11:47 by new i mean anything that happened in the past 1-2 years 23:11:59 it sort of amazes me that people read homestuck 23:12:18 Although cf his HackEgo wisdom 23:12:55 the past 1-2 years have been pretty wonderful 23:13:07 though I guess still not the wonderfulness of act 5 and karkat arguing with himself 23:14:05 you are like almost the exact opposite of me 23:14:24 the best of homestuck for me was when it was about the original 4 23:14:35 shit on your desk 23:14:56 hivebent was jut a chore for me since i really wanted to know e.g. where jade was going to land 23:15:08 I really do like the original 4 humans, yeah. I never really got into the alpha kids much 23:15:20 I quite like the Alpha kids 23:15:22 and jade is still my favorite is and john is still the most adorable dork and dave is still awesome 23:15:33 Jake's my favourite now 23:15:52 nooodl: what have you started 23:16:01 hi monqy 23:16:01 but hivebent had such wonderful characters too. like karkat 23:25:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:41:55 wtf http://perl8.org/ 23:42:05 (Someone has perl8.org pointing to Scala) 23:42:21 programming language jokes! 23:53:43 better than www.perl5.org 23:54:19 How much cheating would be acceptable in a Feather-like language? 23:54:49 -2% 23:55:11 not only may you not cheat but you must do community service to make up for all the stupid time travel jokes you're causing 23:58:22 Compiled languages often have a bootstrap process, in which, say, a compiler for L written in L is compiled using a compiler for L written in another language. Can this process be made a part of the language somehow? 23:59:29 just write the compiler in L, like all those C compilers written in C 23:59:34 what kind of self-respecting language acknowledges other languages' existence? that sounds like step one down a path to interoperability son 2013-03-10: 00:00:08 olsner: the point being you need something to start it off, a compiler for L when there is no compiler for L presently. 00:01:36 I _know_ some Smalltalker has done something imminently relevant to this discussion and to Feather 00:01:39 Argh 00:02:02 know as in you are guessing so, or know as in you remember somebody doing so? 00:02:20 also: if on this path you happen to find a good model of code serialization (not compilation) you should let me know about it 00:03:16 Know as in I remember someone doing so, although I guess the actual relevance of the project is questionable 00:03:27 I saw source code that started out in one language and turned into another 00:03:40 isn't that just a compiler. 00:03:55 Oh, you mean like within a source? 00:03:57 Yes 00:04:03 I guess that seems a bit like Forth 00:04:07 But it wasn't Forth 00:04:25 I suppose it depends on what you mean by "language". 00:04:41 I mean if you write enough functions is that a language, if you write macros does that make it a language, if you alter the parser... 00:05:09 At the very least the parser changed, but I think it was more fundamental than that 00:05:25 that sounds ugly and gross 00:07:14 I guess you could also incrementally alter the way the compiler works. 00:07:19 Found it 00:07:20 http://piumarta.com/software/maru/maru-2.4/test-pepsi.l 00:07:43 you can change binary lambda calculus into binary combinatory logic within 125 bits, but it all looks like 0s and 1s:-( 00:07:51 'course it's piumarta 00:07:59 piumarta? 00:08:06 http://www.dynamic-languages-symposium.org/dls-06/program/media/IanPiumarta_2006_OpenExtensibleDynamicProgrammingSystems_Dls.pdf 00:08:16 yeah one of his papers 00:08:25 I don't get the "'course it's piumarta" 00:08:34 because piumarta does all this stuff 00:08:39 (piumarta is great) 00:08:41 uhhhhh basically one of his papers had apply and eval as functions with definable multimethods 00:08:45 and yeah that 00:09:03 you should look up maru if you haven't 00:09:07 the vpri stuff he does does things like 00:09:13 pasting in the diagram of a tcp packet from the rfc directly 00:09:20 and it gives you a parser for them 00:09:26 Ok that's awesome. 00:09:26 and that's how they define the packet structure 00:09:41 Going to go read this presentation 00:13:26 http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ welp 00:13:40 pepsi and cola? 00:13:46 is there a theme here 00:13:49 guess he's thirsty 00:13:59 maru is named after some cat though 00:16:09 "Pepsi -- not quite The Real Thing 00:16:11 " 00:17:04 "(a white-paper advocating widespread, unreasonable behaviour) 00:17:05 " 00:17:58 I think ais523 would like this 00:18:00 Maybe? 00:18:47 maybe 00:20:23 Maybe I'll understand this COLA stuff if I read the whitepaper 00:20:24 Reading it now 00:20:35 and lo was sgeo drowned in sodas 00:24:43 i feel like writing a lightweight graph-oriented p2p distributed database 00:25:00 go 4 it 00:25:14 but then i think about network programming and I'm like NO 00:26:09 "(Readers under the age of 35, or those never significantly exposed 00:26:10 to an anglo-saxon culture, might have trouble figuring this one out.)" 00:26:22 Was there some sort of ad campaign where Pepsi was called fake? 00:26:27 A fake Coke? 00:26:57 new coke I think 00:27:01 New Coke. 00:27:10 scandal of the century 00:27:17 Personally I prefer Fentimans 00:27:23 The cola of Hexham 00:27:39 I have a dire warning: If anyone here ever considers setting up WPA2 Enterprise at home, think again. The radius server configuration almost broke my mind. 00:28:23 And don't talk to me about connecting windows clients to it. 00:28:26 Vorpal Enterprises Inc LLC GmbH is foiled once again. 00:28:38 Gregor, you forgot A/S and AB 00:28:52 HHI superiority remains unsurpassed 00:28:53 oh and Ltd 00:29:25 Vorpal: LLC means the same as Ltd 00:29:29 Of course, so does GmbH... 00:29:35 well yes 00:29:44 But LLC more literally does since they're in the same language X-D 00:29:50 Whoa 00:29:50 hm 00:29:56 Gregor, didn't know that, hm 00:30:05 also SSL/TLS certificate infrastructure is weird 00:30:07 My various nicks spell out the first three letters of my real name 00:30:27 Taneb, oh? 00:30:35 Taneb atriq Ngevd 00:30:38 NaT 00:30:42 NaThAn 00:30:50 right 00:31:04 -!- Taneb has changed nick to hendiadys. 00:31:26 Gregor, also I discovered two amusing bugs with this premium segment netgear router/AP 00:31:27 Surprised this isn't taken 00:31:55 hendiadys: Also free: Surprised 00:32:13 Gregor, both are related to not having the IP 192.168.1.1. Stuff breaks. For a start, RADIUS breaks, since it sends that IP hard coded in the RADIUS requests. Also it doesn't listen to telnet if that IP is not used. 00:32:26 This is going to give me a headache, isn't it? 00:32:27 "Messaging is therefore self-describing (the semantics of sending messages to objects are 00:32:27 described and implemented by sending messages to objects)." 00:32:28 Vorpal: Is there a REASON you wanted Enterprise at home? 00:33:11 Sgeo: just call it "metacircularity" and you'll sound smart without having to get it 00:33:14 Gregor, because I could? And I'm paranoid and like the idea of using certificates to limit who can connect, after all I use keys-only for ssh 00:35:18 * Sgeo gives up 00:35:23 Maybe I'll try reading it another day 00:35:28 Gregor, also hm, think of the possibilities with granting temporary access to guests, (using EAP-TTLS-MSCHAPv2 or PEAP obviously, using EAP-TLS would be far too annoying for that). Hey I could design a web interface for that 00:35:52 “Because I could” → nope 00:35:55 IRN BRU 00:36:14 Gregor, well, a lot of the stuff that happens in this channel is "because I could" 00:36:28 Vorpal: No, I mean, you clearly couldN'T ;) 00:36:44 Gregor, well I did manage in the end, I just suggest it wasn't worth the effort 00:36:55 Oh! 00:36:56 and probably will result in a lot of frustration 00:37:01 OK, I thought you'd tried and given up. 00:37:07 I don't think you said you got it working X-D 00:37:11 Gregor, I said it *almost* broke my mind 00:37:27 In no way does that suggest whether you made it work or not. 00:37:35 Gregor, also it is an axiom that I do not give up until my mind is broken 00:37:45 Right, that I didn't know X-D 00:37:56 Gregor, because I consider giving up as my mind breaking 00:38:20 unless I can prove it impossible of course, which it clearly isn't in this case, since it is being used all over the place 00:38:31 I try to keep my mind unbroken. 00:38:34 So I give up before that point. 00:38:39 ah okay 00:40:13 Gregor, anyway, the most annoying thing was probably how well Microsoft hid the checkbox for "do not prepend the computer name to the user name you enter in a totally different part of the property-dialog box tree thingy" 00:41:06 at least OS X didn't really hide the configuration, it was in a logical place, just not shown on initial connection attempt 00:41:43 So, you can have temporary guests so long as they go through some insanely complicated configuration process first? 00:42:37 Gregor, it isn't very complicated on the client side on linux or android though 00:42:41 -!- dessos has joined. 00:42:46 really simple there really 00:43:07 Gregor, but I have no idea why microsoft wanted to make it more complex than required 00:44:42 Gregor, actually, unless you use pattern lock or higher (that is, pin code or password), you can't seem to import the CA certificate of the RADIUS server on Android into the certificate store. 00:44:53 so I guess that could potentially count as complicated on Android 00:45:10 not sure what sort of person wouldn't use at least pattern lock though 00:45:41 (nor can I imagine someone using password to unlock the screen of their phone, since the screen timeout is so short on a phone) 00:46:14 I don't use a pattern lock. 00:46:19 My phone doesn't lock. 00:46:22 oh? 00:46:26 Just swipe-to-go. 00:46:28 hm 00:46:39 well I guess I found such an user then 00:46:52 I personally use pattern lock 00:51:35 -!- hendiadys has quit (Quit: bedtime for hendiadys). 01:02:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:10:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:11:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:13:24 How much cheating would be acceptable in a Feather-like language? <-- i would think it is his unwillingness to cheat that makes ais523 crazy thinking about feather. otoh i doubt he would care about cheating that had no _observable_ effect. 01:15:15 Does "results in the language actually being able to run on a computer" count as an observable effect? 01:16:13 You mean the cheat is that it exists? 01:16:16 feather is runnable 01:16:31 if you think it is inherently not you don't understand it... 01:17:32 ' I don't think a) is solvable, while remaining computable, but you can fake it using retroactive changes 01:17:32 ' 01:18:05 well, there you go, he's obviously fine with faking it! as long as it doesn't result in a parade of dumb jokes 01:19:01 dont forget the 2% community service. parade of dumb jokes is inevitable haven't you seen them 01:20:40 `quote Bike.*joke 01:20:44 yeah whatever 01:20:47 888) i don't even know anything about feather and i'm getting sick of the time travel jokes 01:20:56 wait is that really the command 01:22:36 which command 01:32:50 I don't like daylight saving time. How many other people in here hate daylight saving time? 01:35:40 time sucks 01:36:13 Do you mean spacetime? 01:36:51 no, i mean time 01:38:51 Space sucks too 01:40:07 i hate time in general but especially daylight savings time. the worst time. 01:45:08 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 01:45:42 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 01:48:20 Are the papers mentioned in hoogle's readme interesting? 01:52:10 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:52:16 -!- DH____ has joined. 02:11:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:15:49 I'm going to go watch some Farscape per Phantom_Hoover's suggestion. 02:17:30 yesssss oh shit does this mean i have to watch that thing 02:17:37 Yes. 02:17:48 On the other hand, "that thing" is only 12 30-minute episodes. 02:17:50 total 02:18:26 what's that thing 02:18:29 Also, even if it seems not interesting for the first few episodes, keep with it. Telling you how long to keep with it would be spoily 02:18:34 Puella Magi Madoka Magica 02:18:40 that was my guess 02:19:52 i think Fiora already spoiled ~the twist~ but also i have since forgotten what it is 02:20:38 Oh hey Farscape's on Hulu :D 02:21:29 I wonder if the calculus of constructions with the axiom of choice would be equivalent to ZFC. 02:21:46 Sgeo, fuck you americans 02:21:57 the tribulations i had to go through 02:22:01 to torrent it 02:22:50 How far could you get in defining V in the CoC? Start by defining a well-ordering. 02:23:00 i nearly gave up when the resolution inexplicably dropped to the size of a postage stamp in season 3 02:23:24 what's this "farscape" thing is it good 02:23:42 Mahō Shōjo Madoka Magika is actually fairly good, though it's very not-obvious at the start. 02:23:44 yes 02:23:47 Then, for each well-ordering n, say that V_n is any set of elements of V_m, where m < n, and if m and m' are isomorphic, then it contains the same elements of V_m as of V_m'. 02:24:20 * Bike blinks at the macrons. hoighty-toighty 02:24:24 I doubt you can actually write that definition in CoC. 02:24:26 Sgeo: It's only slightly spoilery to say that it's a deconstruction. 02:24:34 hiss 02:24:39 Bike: I romanize stuff right. :P 02:24:49 Sgeo: are you aware of any realistic fantastical anime? 02:24:50 Phantom_Hoover, it's the SG-1 guy! 02:24:54 mahou shoujou madouka magika 02:25:02 yes 02:25:03 Sgeo: more realistic than the Fullmetal Alchemists, but it's allowed to be more fantastical as well. Or less. 02:25:14 I only watched one episode of FMA 02:25:24 damned actor-stealers 02:25:25 realistic how 02:25:27 Bike: Uh, only the first two "o"s are long. 02:25:28 I hope it was of the 03 and not the 09. 02:25:35 Bike: "Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magika" 02:25:36 tswett, I don't know 02:25:40 pikhq: you doun't say 02:25:42 what's this "farscape" thing is it good 02:25:43 y 02:26:12 Realistic in the sense that there aren't very many things that obviously wouldn't have happened if it weren't necessary for the story. 02:26:24 realistic/down-to-earth fantasy..? hmm 02:26:25 realistic is the wrong word for that 02:26:35 there is probably a right one but i dunno what it is 02:26:35 what a definition. 02:26:38 naturalistic maybe 02:26:50 Yeah, I dunno what the best word would be. 02:27:00 You should watch Haibane Renmei. (Hauiubauneu Reunmeuiu) 02:27:03 I watched two episodes of Smallville; it seems to be a good antiexample of what I'm talking about. 02:27:29 what's this "Hauiubauneu Reunmeuiu" thing is it good 02:27:34 I guess when I think of "realistic" anime with fantastical elements I think of things like patlabor 02:27:39 it's pretty good 02:27:42 A tornado strikes, and four people are almost killed. It just so happens that all four people are major characters in the story. 02:27:48 also it's by yoshitoshi abe if you like that guy 02:27:58 whats anime 02:28:06 who knows 02:28:09 Chinese cartoons. 02:28:20 Clark Kent's space ship takes off and crash lands itself in a corn field. I guess it's designed so that if there's no pilot inside, it just flies randomly. 02:28:23 Phantom_Hoover, "Commander Kryten" 02:28:24 wat 02:28:29 monqy: Anime is short for animation 02:28:32 crichton, you idiot 02:28:38 zzo38: ah, that makes sense 02:28:39 like michael crichton 02:28:51 That little chip thingy is essential to the ship's functioning. So they put it on the exterior of the ship with nothing holding it down. 02:28:52 tswett: that would be pretty entertaining in the real world, you must admit 02:28:59 Farscape is a combination of every single SF show ever, isnt it? 02:29:19 Is it a combination of Ultraviolet and Aeon whatever too 02:29:29 is farscape an anime 02:29:30 i don't think so 02:29:32 Flux apparently 02:29:35 Actors from SG-1, a name from Red Dwarf 02:29:40 It's apparently every anime, monqy. 02:29:48 hm, is that good or bad 02:29:49 probably would save us all a lot of time to watch it really 02:29:50 (yes I know the actors went from Farscape -> SG-1) 02:29:55 It still feels weird 02:29:55 i've heard some weird things about anime 02:30:08 things you wouldn't want to tell a child to know 02:30:11 i like how the name Sgeo is having trouble with is that of the ordinary american human 02:30:30 I've heard that if you call yourself kawaii in a mirror three times it becomes true, horribly true. 02:31:04 I've heard that most anime is made in Japan. 02:32:24 i've heard it's made by cuttlefish as part of a top-secret experiment to teach them a trade skill 02:32:38 That would explain Ika Musume 02:33:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUwQwtDpdE4 animes 02:34:02 hahaha Bike do you think we're stupid 02:34:10 everyone knows it's vietnamese 02:35:38 I've never seen any Vietnamese TV. Maybe it's good. 02:53:21 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:55:31 Will ISE WebPACK run on a VM running CentOS and which is not connected to the internet? 02:58:14 Phantom_Hoover, I'll re-watch tomorrow. Kind of annoying trying to watch with TV in background, can't hear what aliens are saying 02:58:45 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:59:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 02:59:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:03:00 All right, I'm watching Ha-Re. 03:24:04 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:24:06 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:24:11 -!- SirCmpwn has joined. 03:24:32 -!- ineiros has joined. 03:32:02 -!- carado_ has joined. 03:34:00 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:35:15 I think the TOGA computer could be implemented using only two 7400 series ICs. 03:35:44 (This is not including the ROM, RAM, and clock, but those aren't a part of the CPU) 03:36:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:41:02 ion: I like this attitude to impurity 03:41:12 hehe 03:41:15 racial? 03:41:27 bike: Even worse 03:41:49 Is this a red cow thing 03:45:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:45:37 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 03:45:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:47:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:51:07 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:51:13 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:56:38 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 04:01:12 Specifically 74175 and 74161 04:04:41 zzo38: you could use a 555 (and a few passive linear components) for the clock, which isn't 7400 series but is carried by the same sort of distributors 04:06:41 ais523: OK, I suppose it can. 04:14:30 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:20:00 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 04:29:56 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 04:39:30 -!- monqy has joined. 04:45:36 -!- ogrom has joined. 04:48:36 What's the difference between maru and cola? 04:59:05 :t (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> IORef a -> IORef b 04:59:06 parse error on input `->' 04:59:15 derp 04:59:20 @hoogle (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> IORef a -> IORef b 04:59:21 Prelude until :: (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a 04:59:21 Prelude (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c 04:59:21 Data.Function (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c 05:12:24 IORef isn't Invariant 05:13:33 Invariant? 05:13:40 @hackage invariant 05:13:40 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/invariant 05:15:09 If there was a way to get notified when an IORef changed, could IORef be made invariant? 05:15:16 wow, the hackage page on IO is huge 05:15:24 Bike: that shouldn't really be surprising 05:15:44 it's not, but it's still the biggest page i've seen on hackage 05:15:46 basically because anything that interacts with system calls has to be in IO, and there are a lot of system calls 05:15:57 and a lot of sugar-around-system-calls, too 05:16:02 "File and directory names are values of type String, whose precise meaning is operating system dependen" oh boy 05:16:39 @hoogle () 05:16:39 System.FilePath.Windows () :: FilePath -> FilePath -> FilePath 05:16:39 System.FilePath.Posix () :: FilePath -> FilePath -> FilePath 05:16:54 hmm… Cyrillic is a lot easier to read if your default interpretation of letters is as Greek 05:17:00 rather than as English 05:17:06 seems to be a lot of inspiration from there 05:17:13 cyrillic developed out of greek and english developed out of latin 05:17:20 Bike: for aimake2 I invented an OS-independent filename format 05:17:42 Bike: FilePath is broke as hell :( 05:18:07 for relative paths, it's dir/dir/dir/dir/filename, for absolute paths, it's root/dir/dir/dir/dir/dir/filename, there's a boolean saying whether it's relative or absolute, and any slashes, colons, and backslashes in the components are escaped with backslashes 05:18:17 ais523, did you look at cola and maru? 05:18:20 (colons are escaped so that colon can be used as an end-of-string marker when embedding them in longer strings) 05:18:21 Sgeo: no 05:18:28 cola is a sort of soft drink, isn't it? 05:18:31 but I don't know what maru is 05:18:35 a cat 05:18:39 @google maru cat 05:18:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uDuls5TyNE 05:18:44 perfect 05:19:02 ais523, Cola: http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ 05:19:17 Maru: http://piumarta.com/software/maru/ 05:19:36 Sgeo: it's sort-of like you're doing that thing zzo38 does where you talk about something out of context, without indications of what it is and why other people should be interested in it 05:19:47 and tend to not get a response for that reason 05:20:32 ais523, it vaguely reminds me of your motivations for Feather. Cola is supposed to be completely self-describing 05:20:42 "is completely self-describing (from the metal, or even FPGA gates, up) exposing all aspects of its implementation for inspection and incremental modification;" 05:20:57 btw i think i'm far enough along in lyah to write a monad tutorial 05:22:12 Sgeo: that wasn't really the motivation for Feather, directly, or at least it's only half of it 05:22:29 the point of Feather is that it has to not require a huge amount of complex structure to accomplish that 05:22:45 oh, maru is tiny 05:22:50 i.e. all the complexity should be added on lata 05:22:56 it's like what, a few pages of C and then three of itself? 05:22:58 *later 05:23:09 hmm, the pages of C disappoint me 05:23:47 Anyway Another Haskell Question: Why does, say, digitToInt throw an exception instead of return a Maybe Int or what have you? 05:24:24 Bike, whenever you have questions of that sort, where a different meaning of a function or whatever would make more sense, it's probably "idiotic historical reason" 05:24:33 hmm, maru just looks to me like yet another lisp 05:24:38 even if it isn't lisp 05:24:45 the interest seems to be the fact that it has a self-hosted compiler 05:24:54 which is true of basically every functional language in existence 05:24:59 Sgeo: I try not to assume sad things. 05:25:23 even brainfuck has a self-hosted compiler 05:25:33 Plus there could be other reasons. 05:25:52 Like, should there be an Error monad you can stuff whatever information into? Where would you use that and not Maybe? Bla bla. 05:26:06 Bike: there's Either 05:26:21 elliott: btw, is EitherT possible as a monad transformer, or doesn't it make sense? 05:27:01 I still don't have a good intuitive model of what a monad transformer actually is/does 05:28:11 A monad transformer makes a new monad from some other monad, by homomorphism, I think, isn't it? 05:28:25 There is EitherT monad transformer, in some package 05:28:48 hmm, so I guess it does make sense 05:28:59 Bike: Maybe is a monad 05:29:05 ais523: EitherT exists, sure 05:29:15 does that answer my question in a way i don't see 05:29:18 Bike: oh I guess not 05:29:30 Bike: anyway as a common lisper you should be accustomed to things being stupid because people were idiots once 05:29:35 your whole language is an example 05:29:37 quite 05:30:02 oh yeah, EitherT makes sense because it's equivalent to (and likely implemented as) manually packing and unpacking an either at every >>= and return 05:30:05 did lisp kill your parents or something, also 05:30:09 yes 05:30:13 how did you discover my secret 05:30:13 Maybe can be like Either () 05:30:21 a doodyheaded orphan 05:30:25 you're truly a scoundrel, sir 05:30:38 elliott: btw is it wrong that in OCaml, I use List as Maybe for nicer syntax and better library support? 05:30:50 what's wrong is ocaml 05:30:54 (ocaml also killed my parents) 05:31:06 There ought to be Alternative and MonadPlus for Either x, too, if x is Monoid; but, there isn't. 05:31:48 I've heard that mp4 or is it mp5 is nice? 05:31:56 Or.. whatever the macro-y thing for OCaml is 05:32:00 mp4 05:32:49 mp3 05:33:06 camlp4, i guess 05:33:07 catchy! 05:33:24 http://www.podval.org/~sds/ocaml-sucks.html i really shouldn't google things 05:34:16 i should just live in a box, in connecticut. 05:34:20 i read that page once and thought it was silly and went up to the enclosing directory and saw a link to esr's "Anti-Idiotarian Manifesto" and then I decided to ignore everything they say forever 05:34:24 true story! 05:34:36 nice. 05:34:38 well half silly and half obviously dumb things 05:34:42 er as in obviously dumb about ocaml 05:34:45 (this is because ocaml is dumb) 05:34:47 btw esr came by #lisp the other day 05:34:59 he was convinced to use python instead 05:35:04 Bike: by #lisp? 05:35:16 the channel 05:35:19 and were they trying to convince him to use lisp, or to not use lisp? 05:35:44 oh, he wanted to make some python thingamajig faster and he said something about liking lisp back when he was an undergrad bla bla bla 05:36:20 elliott: Haskell is the Java of functional programming languages, it lives too many levels of abstractions up despite that being technically correct 05:36:20 "Additionally, functions take a fixed number of arguments, so, to multiply three numbers, you have to call Int64.mul twice." 05:36:52 varargs are nice, but I wouldn't really use * as a crowning example 05:36:56 I would use lift. 05:36:56 ais523: random FUD nonsense is the IRC statements of ais523? 05:36:57 Bike: and to multiply an arbitrary number of numbers, you use fold 05:37:12 elliott: I'm just trying to be as inflammatory as you, but I'm not very good at it :( 05:37:15 I like this "No Polymorphism" section which amounts to "the compiler can't infer rank-2 types" 05:37:23 ais523: well the trick is you just say things suck 05:37:26 people can figure out why for themselves 05:37:42 hmm 05:37:52 i just like the horror i'm hearing in the voice 05:37:57 you have to call the function TWICE 05:38:28 in practice it's hard to implement a varargs multiplication that doesn't operate internally via splitting it into separate multiplications 05:38:56 "higher order functions taking higher order functions as arguments": couldn't he just say "third order functions"? 05:39:18 that's like saying "numbers greater than 1, and by more than 1!" 05:39:28 peano haskell 05:40:06 Pattern matching 05:40:06 This is a very powerful tool, should be easily implemented as a Lisp macro using DESTRUCTURING-BIND. 05:40:12 this is the most smug lisp weenie page ever 05:40:58 some of the things he lists as disadvantages, such as inability to redefine the internals of a module out underneath it, are probably not actually disadvantages 05:41:48 * Sgeo would consider that a disadvantage... 05:42:06 you can't definedly do it in cl anyway `-` 05:42:10 Or... hmm, maybe allow modules to define points at which internals are allowed to be redefined? 05:42:51 Perhaps it would be good, to allow modules to define the point at which internals are allowed to be redefined, possibly. 05:43:02 It might help a few things, possibly? 05:43:24 hmm, why is "Assembly" written in a fixed-width font? I can sort-of see that for the names of other languages 05:43:32 but "Assembly"? 05:43:37 or just define defineable things you can piggy back your own behavior on, like typeclasses or generics 05:43:37 Consistency? 05:43:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:44:06 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 05:49:56 elliott, apparently IO (IORef a) is a monad 05:50:57 * Sgeo goes to read http://blog.ezyang.com/2011/06/the-iva-monad/ 05:54:12 But fmap runs I/O actions so it doesn't seem a functor? 05:55:01 Actually, perhaps that is OK, because it only does readIORef and newIORef 05:55:11 It never writes them, so it is OK, I guess 05:56:49 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:57:07 Actually, no, I don't think so, since other things could still access the IORef 05:57:51 And to compare them 05:58:18 Meaning that fmap id = id doesn't hold because it is a different IORef, so won't be equal 05:59:17 Therefore it isn't a monad 06:00:03 The value inside the IORef would be the same though 06:00:07 Oh... hm 06:00:50 But other things can still write to IORef and check if one is equal to another 06:01:32 (I am talking about the "R" monad which they defined) 06:11:51 do { a <- runR r; b <- runR (id <$> r); print (a == b); } won't be equal even if do { a <- runR r; b <- runR r; print (a == b); } is (although that too might be unequal, but it might be equal, too; but the first one is unequal regardless of if the second one is equal or unequal) 06:13:00 But there is read-only IORef types, specifically (CoYoneda IORef) 06:15:38 I have no idea waht CoYoneda is 06:15:56 @hoogle CoYoneda 06:15:56 No results found 06:16:16 good name though 06:16:27 let's just name everything after that guy. 06:17:04 It is the left Yoneda lemma 06:17:47 Anyway Another Haskell Question: Why does, say, digitToInt throw an exception instead of return a Maybe Int or what have you? <-- digitToInt is mainly intended to use with readInt, which takes a separate function to test whether the digit is in range. 06:18:45 CoYoneda :: forall f x y. (x -> y) -> f x -> CoYoneda f y; is I think, its definition 06:19:19 edwardk has called it Yoneda, but he also called the right Yoneda lemma also Yoneda, which causes confusion. 06:22:23 You cannot write to the IORef in CoYoneda IORef because the type which it stores cannot be known. 06:22:54 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:23:43 But you can read it by readCoYonedaIORef (CoYoneda x y) = x <$> readIORef y; 06:26:16 `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/ul.emm 06:27:01 * oerjan swats HackEgo -----### 06:27:20 `ping 06:27:34 2013-03-10 06:27:33 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/emmental/ul.emm [16417/16417] -> "ul.emm" [1] 06:27:36 pong 06:27:41 whew 06:28:46 `emmental -f ul.emm -e ((Ho hum)!:aSS)(Ho hum)!:aSS 06:28:47 emmental: emmental.hs:42:1-56: Non-exhaustive patterns in function pop 06:28:57 funny guy 06:29:56 oh duh 06:30:37 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '((Ho hum)!:aSS)(Ho hum)!:aSS' 06:30:40 ​((Ho hum)!:aSS)(Ho hum)!:aSS 06:30:45 there you go! 06:33:02 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '(0)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^' 06:33:26 there's a possibility it's too slow for that. 06:33:33 No output. 06:34:17 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '(0)S((0)('"\n"'))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^' 06:34:48 No output. 06:34:54 hmph 06:35:08 `run echo -f ul.emm -e '(0)S((0)('"\n"'))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^' 06:35:09 ​-f ul.emm -e (0)S((0)(\n))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^ 06:35:19 oh it's not an actual newline 06:36:34 `run echo -f ul.emm -e $(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^') 06:36:35 ​-f ul.emm -e (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:( /)S^):^ 06:36:47 `run echo -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^')" 06:36:49 ​-f ul.emm -e (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:( \ /)S^):^ 06:36:59 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^')" 06:37:30 No output. 06:37:41 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:('; echo '/)S^):^')" | head -5 06:38:12 No output. 06:38:19 it worked on my computer :( 06:39:32 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '((y'; echo ')S:^):^')" | head -5 06:40:03 No output. 06:40:27 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e '(:aSS):aSS' # This worked a moment ago 06:40:31 ​(:aSS):aSS 06:41:13 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '((y'; echo '):*:*:*S')" 06:41:16 No output. 06:41:22 wtf 06:41:28 `run echo -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '((y'; echo '):*:*:*S')" 06:41:29 ​-f ul.emm -e ((y \ ):*:*:*S 06:41:35 oh duh 06:41:39 `run echo -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(y'; echo '):*:*:*S')" 06:41:41 ​-f ul.emm -e (y \ ):*:*:*S 06:41:48 `run emmental -f ul.emm -e "$(echo '(y'; echo '):*:*:*S')" 06:41:52 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 06:41:59 sheesh 06:42:31 well no use trying anything bigger :P 06:43:37 hi 06:43:46 hello! 06:43:58 my underload implementation in emmental is slow! 06:44:45 Is it being too fast 06:44:49 which is expected, really - it optimizes for minimal number of instructions and reserved symbols, not speed. 06:45:11 `cat ul.emm 06:45:13 ​###1-1111-1#11#1-! \ ###1-1111-1#11##1##1--1--! \ ###1-1111-1 #1#11-11 # ! \ ###1-1111-1 ####1-11-11- #1 ! \ ###1-1111-1 ##1##1--11- #11 ! \ ###1-1111-1 #1#1##1--11- #11##1-1- ! \ ###1-1111-1 #1##1--111 #1##1-- ! \ ###1-1111-1 ###1#11-1-1- #111111 ! \ # \ ###1-1111-1 \ ######1###1###1###1##1###1###1##1 ###1##1####1##1#1##1##1#1 \ ####1## 06:45:22 Err 06:45:24 (and i suspect the emmental interpreter isn't optimal either.) 06:45:31 I just read some blatantly false documentation on Hackag 06:45:33 Hackage 06:45:38 `file bin/emmental 06:45:41 bin/emmental: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped 06:45:58 oh "minimal number of instructions" is "minimal number of _different_ instructions". 06:45:58 (And by blatantly false I mean it says it returns a True or False when neither is in sight in the type) 06:46:05 can I see, sgeo? 06:46:08 so it's not golfed. 06:46:19 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/IfElse/0.85/doc/html/Control-Monad-IfElse.html 06:46:21 awhen 06:46:36 `file src/emmental.hs 06:46:38 src/emmental.hs: UTF-8 Unicode English text 06:46:46 Jafet: you might try that. 06:46:53 these docs seem just kind of bad 06:47:01 -!- FreeFull has joined. 06:47:17 (also isn't cond just guards or) 06:47:34 oh, a list, duh 06:47:39 fuck 06:47:58 `url src/emmental.hs 06:48:02 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/emmental.hs 06:49:16 Authored by Ørjan Johansen. 06:49:32 https://github.com/mmirman/ImperativeHaskell/blob/master/Main.hs 06:50:50 http://kormacode.blogspot.com/2011/11/c-style-haskell_10.html 06:51:34 :t (=<<) 06:51:36 Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 06:51:50 ... 06:53:48 Bike: its flip (>>=) 06:54:55 Jafet: um the Emmental interpreter is cpressey's, i just modified it a little to make it useable on HackEgo. 06:55:11 elliott: yes the "..." was the lack of sound of me imagining slapping my forehead. 06:55:30 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/simple-observer/0.0.1/doc/html/src/Control-Observer-Synchronous.html 06:55:33 but: is there a point to that behind syntactic convenience 06:55:41 well it e.g. matches the order of ($), (<$>) 06:55:46 Why does this use MVar instead of... TVars or IORefs? 06:55:58 you may find more at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental#Computability_class 06:56:01 are you just going to go through random packages on haskell and ask us why they're wrong all day.... 06:56:04 *hackage 06:56:31 sgeo could become a masked haskell vigilante 06:56:59 oerjan: "Haskell program" is a 404 HTH HAND 06:57:09 a shuriken strikes above my head. "you don't need a lambda there!" it is the Mask 06:57:21 oops 06:57:23 maskell? work with me sgeo 06:57:51 oerjan: "By the necessities of this kind of Emmental programming, 10 byte values have been reserved for the interpreter's internal use. These are all non-printable control codes." pfft, you should have taken the opportunity to use []<> 06:57:52 The masked raskell 06:58:24 elliott: try now, i somehow switche Unl and Emm in the filename :P 06:58:31 *switched 06:58:47 yep that works 06:58:54 has an encoding problem, though 06:58:58 what 06:59:10 - By Ørjan Johansen, February-March 2013. 06:59:19 possibly IE manages to guess the right encoding there. 06:59:28 um it's UTF-8 06:59:36 yes but your server is not transmitting that fat 06:59:37 *fact 06:59:46 *sigh* 06:59:46 (and hence it's failing to display the non-ascii utf-8 in my browser) 06:59:47 I do not understand OI at all 07:00:07 also: lens and a license that actually exists? and type signatures??? the enterprisey age of oerjan begins 07:00:10 that is a fantastic name, assuming it's some kind of opposite of IO 07:00:26 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/oi/0.2.1.0/doc/html/Data-OI.html 07:00:37 and by fantastic i mean laughing for a few minuts straight followed by ramming my head into a wall in pained desperation 07:00:45 it hurts sgeo. it really hurts 07:01:07 as I understand it OI doesn't work. 07:01:26 «Datatype for intermediating interaction: OI has two states (programmer cannot distinguish), non-expressed and exressed. `Non-expressed' indicates that no computation is assigned. In other words, it's value is never denotated by any expression. » is it wrong to judge a library by its docs grammatical errors 07:01:37 elliott: i even imported all modules either qualified or with import lists 07:01:39 (if it is i want to be right. sorry) 07:01:48 (even lens, it was shorter than i feared) 07:02:12 oerjan: there is Control.Lens.Operators for when you want to import Lens qualified but still use the infix, btw 07:02:52 though I view explicit import lists for "standard" packages like base and containers as insanity-inducing. and then add lens to that list to avoid additional insanity. 07:04:28 elliott: the thing is that other people view packages missing explicit import lists a insanity-inducing when they break on the slightest upgrade 07:04:45 *as 07:05:15 admittedly i only added the list for lens at the last minute. 07:05:33 oerjan: well the point is that base etc. are standard. and that the time you spend maintaining those import lists is longer than the time it takes to fix stuff on upgrades, especially when versioned dependencies mitigate the problem. (ghc has policy not to use them for this reason btw) 07:05:45 and then you add lens even though it isn't stable at all because every rule needs an exception :P 07:06:07 elliott: the insanity is when someone _else's_ package breaks and you cannot get hold of them to fix it. 07:06:13 or so i hear. 07:06:22 ah. so you believe your coding style has an influence on the world :P 07:06:30 nah. 07:06:39 i just felt like being enterprisy. 07:06:42 *ey. 07:07:25 like, i commented almost everything, added type signatures to just about everything, used the prettyprint module... 07:07:34 and lens. 07:07:52 i'm proud of you, son 07:08:14 should there be a book like Real World Haskell, except Enterprise Haskell instead of that thing i just named 07:08:19 and did a couple of refactorings. 07:08:40 Bike: should there be something like jazz, but more like a banana 07:08:44 instead of jazz 07:08:51 thinking.... yes 07:08:56 fuck bananas, though 07:09:05 also that already exists: free jazz. 07:20:40 I try to install one simple package, and it feels like it's compiling half of Hackage 07:22:18 What does it feel like to compile half of Hackage? 07:22:43 It feels like I should go to sleep instead of waiting up for this thing to finish 07:22:56 Well you did lose a whole hour. 07:23:48 asjdfhklasjdfhlaksjdfh 07:24:07 The actual package that I wanted failed to compile because of lack of FlexibleContexts 07:31:14 elliott: FEATURED LANGUAGE BLURB NOW INACCURATE, HTH 07:31:33 ( damn you) 07:35:00 -!- Garuda has joined. 07:35:18 oerjan: its ais523's job 07:35:27 OKAY 07:36:39 fixed 07:36:44 ofc, it's a wiki, you could fix it yourself :) 07:36:56 -!- Garuda has left ("Leaving..."). 07:36:58 OH 07:37:19 * oerjan wasn't sure how to formulate, he claims 07:38:15 also people aren't used to just casually editing the main page 07:38:47 it's a black hole of templates 07:39:53 rip garuda 07:40:07 ais523: for what it's worth, I'd rather they don't get into the habit. because do you remember NSQX. 07:40:32 elliott: it's OK if they're oerjan 07:40:38 YAY 07:40:41 nsqx? 07:40:48 hmm, I should just make oerjan an admin. that way he'd be obligated to fix this kind of stuff 07:40:49 don't ask 07:40:51 Bike: um... 07:40:52 `quote NSQX 07:40:57 No output. 07:41:00 what. 07:41:00 Oh. 07:41:01 `quote NSQX 07:41:02 `pastlog 07:41:03 No output. 07:41:05 elliott: I don't think there are any 07:41:08 no, what, there was an NSQX quote 07:41:13 maybe it got penta`quoted 07:41:14 `quote Well.*day 07:41:17 No output. 07:41:19 I'll wait here. 07:41:19 HELP 07:41:20 `help 07:41:21 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 07:41:31 if someone removed it I will slay them 07:41:34 No output. 07:41:42 elliott: this is all your fault for getting people into the habit of deleting quotes hth 07:41:47 Bike: here you go: 07:41:49 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/df5488147554 07:41:50 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/9673f347ec4d 07:41:59 the first one especially. 07:42:22 elliott: those don't really get across how NSQX behaved 07:42:24 so far he is the only person to have ever evaded a block on the esolang wiki 07:42:32 elliott: not counting spambots? 07:42:38 those aren't people, ais523 07:42:43 and possibly whoever it was who was impersonating lament? 07:42:43 A very enthusiastic day. 07:43:10 Bike: this may also help http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:NSQX 07:43:17 that was kind of boring though did y- oh 07:43:32 pictured: my skill at diplomacy gradually weakening 07:43:40 btw enthusiasm isn't usually a quality that i would ascribe to units of time 07:44:15 oh another good nsqx quote (nsquote) 07:44:16 This seems like a good idea, and I support it, but I suspect NSQX will manage to mess it up somehow. —Maharba 05:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC) 07:44:26 nsqxote? 07:44:49 don nsqxote 07:44:55 wow it's weird seeing you like, write actual sentences 07:45:08 yeah i try to avoid doing it 07:45:12 in the past 07:45:18 wow, nsqx was less than a year ago 07:45:21 well 07:45:21 i guess that makes it ok, just don't do it again 07:45:24 I thought it was further back, somehow 07:45:32 or in another place i can see it, retroactively speaking 07:45:36 you should have seen my on-channel outburst when i woke up and the main page was totally fucked and recent changes had like 500 changes by one guy in it 07:45:45 it involved a lot of allcaps yelling asking what the fuck is going on 07:45:52 that's what nsqx did? 07:46:16 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&oldid=31480 07:46:18 nsqx's main page 07:46:26 except the template he used got deleted 07:46:36 also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nonsense_Query_List. 07:47:13 man, i've seen sql worse than that. 07:47:34 elliott: are you sure about that being nsqx's main page? apart from the formatting error, it looks like the current one 07:47:44 Bike: oh right he also started botting 07:47:45 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m UniCode ‎ (Wikipedia python library) 07:47:48 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m UniCode ‎ (Wikipedia python library) 07:47:51 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m UniCode ‎ (Wikipedia python library) 07:47:54 14:11, 30 March 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+57)‎ . . m UniCode ‎ (Wikipedia python library) 07:47:58 ais523: yes he introduced a formatting error and the "most recent languages" thing 07:48:01 but it took him about 50 revisions 07:48:04 elliott: right 07:48:14 also how did the most recent languages work? manual updating? 07:48:19 yes 07:48:22 templated 07:48:25 containing his language ofc :P 07:48:29 ofc 07:48:40 I think Special:Newpages is transcludable 07:48:44 so you might be able to do it that way 07:48:57 so elliott what's an example of a thing that doesn't fill you with rage? like let's say, an esolang 07:49:02 i like underload 07:49:13 and /// 07:49:19 i think /// is my favourite or second-favourite esolang maybe 07:49:35 fuck, everybody likes underload. 07:50:08 who wouldn't like a language whose article's first section describes a specific aspect of the language and then goes on to admit nothing ever implemented it 07:50:21 granted 07:50:21 even i like underload…yikes! 07:50:54 terrifying 07:50:55 also as a rule we like things oerjan has a hard time programming in. 07:51:07 wait what 07:51:12 well for instance, ///. 07:51:21 well a language has to be at least moderately good (or dupdog) for people to seriously try programming it 07:51:26 you found underload a bit too easy so you had to make it terrible and remove 90% of it for it to appeal 07:51:27 Wait, what's the point of the reserved characters? 07:51:32 Bike: there isn't one 07:51:40 they were meant to be for overload, the language underload is a tarpit of 07:51:40 O KAY 07:51:44 Bike: so you can output unmatched parens, etc 07:51:45 but overload doesn't exist 07:51:51 what the hell is - oh 07:51:53 ais523: err, they don't let you do that 07:52:09 at least not according to [[Underload]] 07:52:09 elliott: I have a few unfinished Overload interps lying around, which may or may not implement the same language 07:52:12 hmm 07:52:24 I guess I could try to dig them out? 07:52:33 also isnt underload a tarpit of like, joy 07:52:36 unfinished because I never manged to work out Overload's specs 07:52:40 Bike: it's a tarpit of Overload 07:52:41 or... i don't remember 07:52:46 Overload has some similarities to Joy, but not that many 07:52:53 elliott: i followed the same approach for emmental, btw 07:52:55 Underload removed most of the complexity that other languages don't have 07:53:02 Overload has pointers, for instance 07:53:06 oerjan: heh 07:53:25 monqy: do you like /// btw 07:53:29 i feel it's important for people to like /// 07:53:38 man i feel like i should be compiling a fucking #esoteric talmud here 07:53:45 there's just so much history and subtlety 07:54:03 and if you're wondering how pointers work in a concatenative language 07:54:07 it's, umm, interesting 07:54:27 well i wasn't wondering but now i sort of am 07:54:40 concatenative languages are pointless, duh 07:55:09 you can still have a thing that points it's just that the points themselves are gone! 07:55:21 fancy 07:55:33 oh it also had goto 07:55:41 um what 07:55:47 23:53:25 monqy: do you like /// btw 07:55:48 23:53:29 i feel it's important for people to like /// 07:55:48 yes 07:56:00 if it encountered a literal pointer in source code 07:56:03 it interpreted it as a goto 07:56:16 and ^ was actually implemented by putting a pointer to the next statement at the end of the top stack element 07:56:24 then detaching and jumping to that stack element 07:56:34 actually, ^ wasn't a primitive, you could implement it in the rest of the language 07:56:54 (it is a primitive in Underload) 07:57:00 Bike: here's the #esoteric history: hey guys remember those good days. no. no we don't. every day before now is complete shit and everyone in the past was awful 07:57:43 elliott: no that's generalized history. what happens is that you go over all the complete shit with a fine toothed comb to find the little nuggets of digested shit and then you compile those into a book and let it rot for like a thousand years or so and then it's canon. 07:57:58 I dunno 07:58:12 there used to be more esolang discussion, but the offtopic discussion used to be more awful, too 07:58:20 nowadays we have less esolang discussion, but more interesting offtopic dicussion 08:14:30 Do you know if it is possible for a Verilog simulation to import and export MIDI files? 08:15:18 zzo38: I don't, although at least output seems likely 08:15:29 Bike: as long as the book says that Bike sucks i'm ok 08:15:30 and it would be easy if you had a preprocessor/postprocessor 08:16:21 ;_; 08:19:55 I am trying to think of how to do some specific kind of ordering of records having the same primary order (such as a timestamp), such that you can insert stuff before or after or in between any of them, move stuff, delete stuff, while still working. Does SQL even support such things? 08:22:15 zzo38: couldn't you just use a secondary ordering as a tiebreak? 08:22:36 ais523: That is what I thought, but then it isn't "everywhere dense" 08:24:02 SQL has no surreal number type, fraction type, or accurate real number type. 08:25:01 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:29:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:29:16 Possibly a custom collation might work, but I don't know of the speed or size of such things 08:32:28 What do you think is best? 08:33:13 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:34:46 I did not expect this snow 08:34:52 elliott, can you confirm snow? 08:35:07 confirmed 08:37:22 my laptop said it was rainsnowing earlier, but I didn't look out of the window to check 08:37:25 apparently it's now snowing 08:37:30 perhaps I'll see if there's snow on the ground 08:37:57 observation results: I can't see snow on the ground 08:38:35 Yeah, but you're stupidly far midlands 08:43:37 Is there any better way than what I suggested? It could be made the index of these fields together, and then make a view which orders them and adds fields for before and after, so that you can make insert in between. 08:47:12 *apparently it's now sunny with clouds 08:47:18 weird typo 08:47:31 -!- ais523 has left (" fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api"). 09:01:26 -!- Yonkie has joined. 09:13:53 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:14:27 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:00:22 -!- nooga has joined. 10:06:36 moin ihr stricher 10:07:50 *wrongchan* 10:08:05 scusi 10:19:31 ja 10:19:45 die wenigsten hier sprechen überhaupt Deutsch vermutlich. 10:20:10 I did not expect this snow <-- is it unusual at this time of year over there? 10:20:12 ich dachte schon ich wäre der einzige 10:20:25 Mid march? Not unheard of, but yes unusual 10:20:29 good morning together 10:20:37 Taneb, it is -10 C or so today here, was like +2 a couple of days ago though 10:22:38 Taneb, hm or is "here today" more idiomatic? 10:22:43 rather than "today here"' 10:22:48 s/'$// 10:22:53 Yes, I think it would be 10:22:59 ah, good to know 10:40:25 Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place%E2%80%93manner%E2%80%93time (and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective#Adjective_order for adjectives) 10:40:58 .oO( senor vorpal kickasso? 9 10:41:00 ) 10:42:13 yes 10:43:43 Vorpal: you should be ready for random snow at least until may 10:48:12 olsner, well yes 10:48:23 why wouldn't you be 10:49:26 ah, I read the message the wrong way, I thought you were the one who didn't expect the snow 10:49:54 Deewiant, interesting 10:50:12 olsner, though i have to say, it is really rare in may 10:50:30 at least in these parts of Sweden 10:50:35 probably not rare up north 10:58:25 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:17:10 Does vi or vim or emacs have a mode to ring the bell once a specified column is reached? 11:20:02 i hope not 11:20:17 what if i accidentally enable it? i do not want the bell 11:20:36 is that what type writers had? 11:25:37 Some typewriters had such thing. 11:27:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:31:07 -!- nooodl has joined. 11:45:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 11:45:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:45:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 11:48:31 Why does reactive-banana have filterJust when Data.Maybe has catMaybes 11:48:39 :t filterJust 11:48:41 Not in scope: `filterJust' 11:48:43 :t catMaybes 11:48:44 [Maybe a] -> [a] 11:49:29 because bananas hate cats and maybes 11:50:33 simianMaybes 11:52:11 catMaybes also seems that can be written in many ways, such as: catMaybes = (>>= toList); or catMaybes x = do { Just y <- x; [y]; }; or in other ways too, I guess. 11:53:20 :t toList 11:53:22 Not in scope: `toList' 11:53:22 Perhaps you meant one of these: 11:53:22 `Data.Foldable.toList' (imported from Data.Foldable), 11:54:08 FreeFull: because it works on Behaviors instead iirc? 11:54:12 zzo38: I personally would have written it as a fold, but the monadic version might be better 11:54:31 elliott: Rather than lists? 11:55:06 yes 11:55:44 Fair enough 11:55:52 FreeFull: You could fold too, but toList is foldable, anyways. 11:56:40 You can do (Foldable f) -> f (Maybe a) -> f a 11:56:45 Which is more general 11:57:03 FreeFull: ...no you can't. 11:57:09 (and Behavior can't be an instance of Foldable) 11:57:24 elliott: Oh right, you'd need to know the constructor 11:57:58 Foldable does not imply Functor; Foldable just means it can be converted to a list. 11:58:42 Well you can't do it for Functors 11:58:52 At least not without additional restraints too 11:58:55 Yes, you can't do it for Functors either. 11:59:31 You could do it for Alternative. 12:00:24 Or for Functor+Plus. 12:02:29 Actually, I don't think so. 12:02:38 But you could with MonadPlus. 12:02:44 Alternative is not enough. 12:03:07 How do some and many work anyway 12:03:41 catMaybes = (>>= maybe mzero return); 12:04:06 FreeFull: badly 12:04:12 FreeFull: alt. they don't 12:04:25 I seem to get bottom for anything but Nothing 12:04:28 FreeFull: alt. they only make sense for things like parser combinators 12:04:48 :t \x -> do { Just y < x; return x; } 12:04:50 Couldn't match expected type `m0 a0' with actual type `Bool' 12:04:50 In a stmt of a 'do' block: Just y < x 12:04:50 In the expression: 12:04:51 but if you think of them in terms of applicative parsers they make perfect sense 12:04:57 Well, some and many can do other things too, but mostly for parsers. 12:04:58 :t \x -> do { Just y <- x; return x; } 12:05:00 Monad m => m (Maybe t) -> m (m (Maybe t)) 12:05:07 Oh, right 12:05:10 other things too "but not much" 12:05:54 :t \x -> do { Just y <- x; return x; } [Just 3] 12:05:56 parse error on input `[' 12:06:02 :t (\x -> do { Just y <- x; return x; } $ [Just 3]) 12:06:03 Num a => ([Maybe a] -> Maybe t) -> [Maybe a] -> Maybe t 12:06:10 If you have a instance Alternative IO, then you could automatically stop reading on error, for example. 12:06:59 Control.Applicative seems to only come with [] and Maybe instances 12:07:20 Any monad on (->) is also applicative, though. 12:08:03 -!- carado_ has joined. 12:08:09 Haskell only does monads on (->) anyway, right? 12:09:38 Yes. 12:10:17 FreeFull: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.6.0.1/doc/html/Control-Applicative.html#control.i:Applicative 12:10:31 and all the standard monad transformers etc. are instances 12:10:55 (Haskell cannot automatically define the instances, though) 12:11:05 elliott: What about Alternative? 12:11:30 oh, you meant Alternative 12:11:46 the docs still list more than that there 12:12:00 (ReadP, ReadPrec, STM, arguably: ArrowMonad/WrappedMonad/WrappedArrow) 12:12:39 return = pure; >>= = ???????? 12:12:44 In other categories though, it is not necessarily the case that all monads are applicative. 12:13:05 Oh wait, other way around 12:13:34 Yes. 12:13:45 pure = return; (<*>) = ap; 12:15:02 pure = return; (<*>) f a = f >>= \f -> return (f a) 12:15:12 I prefer using fmap/pure/liftPair instead of <*> but that can work too; liftPair is workable with any tensor category, though. 12:15:14 I am always tempted to abuse Haskell's scoping 12:15:33 that definition is... not quite right 12:15:52 elliott: Oh right 12:15:57 pure = return; (<*>) f a = f >>= \f -> return (f <$> a) 12:16:06 still no :P 12:16:10 Damn =P 12:16:20 @src ap 12:16:20 ap = liftM2 id 12:16:31 "there you have it" 12:17:01 The return is unnecessary 12:17:14 have you considered thinking it through 12:17:24 No 12:17:46 dropping the return doesn't work either 12:18:07 oh hm 12:18:17 :t \p q -> p >>= \f -> fmap p q 12:18:18 (a -> b) -> (a -> a) -> a -> b 12:18:20 er 12:18:21 :t \p q -> p >>= \f -> fmap f q 12:18:22 (Monad m, Functor m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b 12:18:24 right that works. 12:18:28 =P 12:19:11 of course liftM2 id is better 12:21:29 imo liftM2 ($) is better than liftM2 id because it makes it more clear even though it's the same thing 12:22:44 imo clarity is overrated 12:23:00 monqy: um liftM2 id is shorter 12:23:51 liftM2($) 12:24:09 help 12:25:14 liftM2$id 12:25:30 liftM2 is also same as liftA2, specifically because all monads in Haskell are applicative, that it can do that, I think is the reason. 12:26:41 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:26:41 All categories have monads (at least an identity monad, and if it has final objects, also a Finalize monad). 12:26:46 You are right, except not all monads are applicatives. So, well, you weren't right. 12:27:24 They are (in Haskell, not in general), but the instance is not necessarily defined. 12:28:31 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 12:28:59 A category with final objects has a Finalize monad for each final object of that category, actually. 12:29:32 :t let f :: Monad m => ((a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f = undefined in f liftM2 12:29:34 Ambiguous type variable `m0' in the constraint: 12:29:34 (Monad m0) arising from a use of `f' 12:29:34 Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s) 12:29:50 :t let f :: Monad m => ((a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f _ = undefined in f liftM2 12:29:52 Ambiguous type variable `m0' in the constraint: 12:29:52 (Monad m0) arising from a use of `f' 12:29:52 Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s) 12:30:31 :t let f :: (Monad m => (a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f _ = undefined in f liftM2 12:30:32 d 12:30:35 :t let f :: (Monad m => (a -> b -> c) -> m a -> m b -> m c) -> d; f _ = undefined in f liftA2 12:30:36 Ambiguous type variable `m0' in the constraint: 12:30:36 (Applicative m0) arising from a use of `liftA2' 12:30:36 Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s) 12:36:16 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 12:40:41 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:52:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:08:55 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 13:10:44 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Client Quit). 13:11:00 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 13:12:56 @tell Oerjan "In any case I believe this proves Emmental Turing-complete. However it may happen to do so in a way which I have previously disagreed with Chris Pressey on whether it counts or not. :P " what does that mean? 13:12:56 Consider it noted. 13:13:56 @tell Oerjan also my attempt to use qdeql was so close, but you didn't use it at all :( 13:13:56 Consider it noted. 13:14:11 -!- kallisti1 has changed nick to kallisti. 13:15:09 I wonder if lambdabot treats nicks case sensitively or not 13:16:22 you couldn't have wondered that three minutes earlier could you :( 13:19:59 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:26:26 it wasn't a pertinent question back then 13:32:00 @tell Olsner hello 13:32:00 Consider it noted. 13:33:02 @tell ARC_KOEN I don't even remember if I tried talking to myself yet 13:33:02 You can tell yourself! 13:33:06 ok 13:33:39 elliott: hi 13:33:39 olsner: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 13:36:36 omg it worked ! 13:56:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:57:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:02:52 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:10:22 -!- atehwa has joined. 14:17:28 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Bbl). 14:44:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:52:07 wait... 14:52:14 @tell ELLIOTT hmm 14:52:14 Consider it noted. 14:52:35 oh, right 14:53:03 Phantom_Hoover: wait since when are you here 14:53:03 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 14:53:32 i've been here for 3 hours... 14:53:43 fuck you 14:54:14 (HOW THE FUCK IS IT SNOWING IN MARCH) 14:55:01 magickque 14:55:07 Phantom_Hoover: basically snow is like rain but when it's cold enough to freeze it'll come down as "snow" instead 14:55:27 why does england get all the damn sno 14:55:28 w 14:56:00 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:56:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 14:56:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:57:08 I don't think you've got quite all of it. 14:57:31 Finnish Meteorological Institute says there's a 49 cm snow cover here, for example. 14:57:32 how dare you lump me in with the english 14:57:48 we haven't had much snow here for a long time, maybe that's the snow that you're getting 14:59:20 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado. 15:00:57 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:10:28 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:11:02 -!- wareya has joined. 15:21:05 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:53:15 Got FreeGame to work 15:53:20 Needed a newer version 15:55:44 Is it bad that I don't entirely understand FlexibleContexts UndecidableInstances etc., and plan on letting GHC tell me if I ever need them? 15:58:21 Functions of type a->a are monoids, right? 15:58:33 mempty = id; mappend = . 15:58:34 erm 15:58:37 mappend = (.) 15:58:45 Or would it be flip (.)? 15:58:45 we call them "Endo" here 15:58:52 and "Dual Endo" ;) 15:58:58 er 15:59:02 (Endo a) 15:59:06 Dual (Endo a) 15:59:08 "something like THat 15:59:50 Sgeo, yes, but as newtype Endo a = Endo {appEndo :: a -> a} 16:00:07 Because "instance Monoid m => Monoid (a -> m)" exists 16:00:49 And they'd overlap if you want mempty :: String -> String, for example 16:00:57 (is it id or const ""?) 16:02:19 const "" 16:02:21 oh 16:02:21 nm 16:04:41 Taneb: const "" is a -> String though 16:04:54 Basically, I'm imaginging how one would write "plugins" for SimpleIRC bots. Each plugin would have a function IrcConfig->IrcConfig that adds its own event handlers to the config 16:04:56 FreeFull, and why can't a be String? 16:05:08 It could be 16:05:11 It could be anything 16:05:36 So, const "" is a valid mappend fo String -> String, yeah? 16:05:38 mempty, rather 16:05:52 Sgeo, Endo IrcConfig 16:06:04 Also, SimpleIRC still sucks for being not as typesafe as it should be 16:06:59 There's only one type of event handler, and every message (except for one) gets the same type of message passed to it, and the types in that record tend to have Maybes 16:07:39 So rather than "Ok, the event handler for this message will always receive XYZ", it's "the event handler for this message must be capable of dealing with parts of the message not being there" 16:19:05 @hoogle runMaybeT 16:19:05 Control.Monad.Trans.Maybe runMaybeT :: MaybeT m a -> m (Maybe a) 16:28:48 :t MaybeT [Nothing, Nothing, Just 1] 16:28:50 Not in scope: data constructor `MaybeT' 16:29:27 MaybeT [] Integer 16:30:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:33:56 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 16:34:12 :t runMaybeT $ do { x <- [3..10]; return x; } 16:34:14 Not in scope: `runMaybeT' 16:36:57 How can I express ap in terms of fmap, return, and join? 16:38:46 first express (>>=) 16:39:12 f <*> x = join (fmap (uncurry fmap . flip (,) x) f) 16:39:45 Actually, I can make that nicer... 16:40:14 no i can't 16:41:00 join (fmap (flip fmap x) f) 16:42:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:42:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 16:42:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:46:55 Thanks, Deewiant 16:47:17 No need to make a tuple just so that you can uncurry... 16:47:31 Of course 16:52:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:56:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:03:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:08:54 This is very weird:http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15268229/ebnf-whitespacing-in-meta-identifiers/15324944 17:09:28 I've sort of tried to answer the question. Although I actually find it hard to believe that the standard would have missed something that obvious 17:12:25 -!- Bike has joined. 17:23:25 The Gall-Peters projection makes me uncomfortable 17:24:44 why 17:25:04 Maybe I'm just too used to Mercator 17:25:47 Mercator looks better 17:29:13 Great, I found a bug in iceweasel 17:38:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:39:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:47:46 ^list 17:47:46 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 17:47:50 Thanks 17:48:02 thankies 17:49:16 yw 17:49:33 The bot in MSPA that I made is so... early that we sometimes think it's a false alarm when it isn't 17:49:47 oh gosh the pun 17:50:11 (john: still totally adorkable) 17:50:16 Trivia: I know someone who actually answered an exam question along the lines of "Nuclear power plants work by nuclear fish" 17:50:31 The options were Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Fusion, and Nuclear Fish 17:51:18 that sounds like a debaitable answer 17:51:20 were they shore? 17:51:45 I am afraid they were a few kippers short of a shoal 17:51:47 it sounds pretty outraygeous to me 17:52:30 `pastelogs Trivia: 17:53:02 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29785 17:53:19 ... 17:53:24 Thanks, HackEgo. 17:54:10 Anyway, now I shall leave. 17:54:30 what's a nuclear fish? 17:54:43 It's a joke answer to an easy exam question 17:55:13 so not a fish with glowing eyes and lethal touch? 17:55:57 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:38:49 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 18:39:06 -!- Frooxius has joined. 18:41:02 -!- Frooxius has quit (Client Quit). 18:41:16 -!- Frooxius has joined. 18:45:28 -!- carado_ has joined. 18:45:31 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:46:09 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado. 19:12:38 so not a fish with glowing eyes and lethal touch? <-- it could be 19:22:39 -!- nooga has joined. 19:45:50 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined. 19:57:55 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Quit: ragequit). 19:59:42 You know what the world doesn't need? 19:59:48 Harlem shake (gangnam style) 20:00:50 Harlem shake (gangnam style) (dubstep remix) 20:00:58 psy dancing the actual harlem shake would be kinda fun 20:03:46 Also, I quite like the occasional dubstep 20:04:04 burial's pretty nice 20:04:28 I'm not "into it", but I find it pleasant to listen to 20:04:36 In the same way I enjoy classical music 20:05:42 Harlem shake (gangnam style) (dubstep remix) <-- oh my god 20:05:54 Please say it exists 20:06:43 I don't think so 20:06:48 Aww 20:06:59 Saying that, I've never actually heard Harlem Shake 20:07:00 "Psy Does the 'Harlem Shake' + Announces 'Gangnam Style' Followup 20:07:00 PopCrush ‎- 5 hours ago" 20:07:02 oh my god 20:07:13 I'm scared to click that link 20:07:13 "Gangnam Shake" 20:08:01 Bike, looks like your wish has come true (before you made it?) 20:08:24 cool 20:08:35 just google harlem shake gangnam style 20:08:37 first hit 20:08:45 I'm not going to click it 20:09:03 Retroactive wish granting 20:09:19 I wish that Czechoslovakia was two countries 20:09:38 Slovakia, and... something like Czechia but that sounds stupid so not that 20:13:21 :/ 20:13:26 What's wrong with Czech Republic 20:13:39 i dunno, i think "czechia" sounds better 20:13:48 That's a much better name than Czechia, FreeFull 20:13:50 Thanks 20:13:51 what's the endonym in common use 20:13:53 In Polish, it's just called Czechy 20:15:20 kmc, "Czech", if an endonym is what I think it is 20:16:18 i think you are mixing up endonyms and demonyms 20:16:30 i'm asking what people in czech republic call the country in their native language 20:16:33 in common use 20:17:08 bbl 20:17:08 czechworld 20:17:32 Česká republika 20:17:53 Or just Česko 20:20:45 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:21:40 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:21:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:27:45 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:43:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:47:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:50:30 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:51:54 -!- ogrom has joined. 20:59:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:01:51 Aaaaaargh 21:03:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:04:20 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:05:32 -!- Frooxius has joined. 21:07:09 the universe vs. Taneb: 25-3 21:07:09 oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:07:14 @messages 21:07:15 Arc_Koen said 7h 54m 19s ago: "In any case I believe this proves Emmental Turing-complete. However it may happen to do so in a way which I have previously disagreed with Chris Pressey on whether it 21:07:15 counts or not. :P " what does that mean? 21:07:15 Arc_Koen said 7h 53m 19s ago: also my attempt to use qdeql was so close, but you didn't use it at all :( 21:07:36 Arc_Koen: aww 21:07:42 I'm doing substantially worse than Scott Pilgrim 21:08:46 Alas, this is Taneb's brain vs Taneb 21:09:42 Arc_Koen: chris pressey has quandaries about whether it is TC unless it can do TC computation on data given through the language's official input method - which i don't use at all :P 21:09:55 or that's my impresssion anyway. 21:10:20 @tell Arc_Koen chris pressey has quandaries about whether it is TC unless it can do TC computation on data given through the language's official input method - which i don't use at all :P 21:10:20 Consider it noted. 21:10:38 @tell Arc_Koen s/it/a language/ 21:10:38 Consider it noted. 21:12:54 @tell Arc_Koen aww. well you can do an implementation that actually handles input, then. 21:12:55 Consider it noted. 21:15:07 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:16:44 @tell Arc_Koen Hey, maybe you can make an implementation that doesn't use the _stack_. or only the top element, that is. 21:16:45 Consider it noted. 21:19:23 @tell Arc_Koen hm wait you need the stack to use ! :( 21:19:23 Consider it noted. 21:21:24 elliott: we seem to have a persistent spambot who's got around the captcha somehow, I've set abusefilter to recognise its edits and disallow them (no blocks yet); there might theoretically be false positives but we haven't had any all year 21:21:46 specifically, it looks for ".
" and a capital letter, but no newlines, in a new user's first edit, and only if it's to a user page 21:22:43 I wish I had the drive to actually do things 21:22:49 That'd be cool 21:22:56 Taneb: you too, eh? 21:23:51 -!- abumirqaan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:24:17 -!- abumirqaan has joined. 21:24:29 this is a trivially easy restriction for a spambot author to modify their spambot to get around, but unless they're targetting Esolang specifically they won't 21:26:05 they could use a genetical algorithm to tweak things trivially until they pass, and keep site-specific data without actually doing anything manually. in theory. 21:26:12 *genetic 21:26:44 but if they cared that much, they wouldn't use
in the first place. 21:29:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:31:32 oerjan, you are a criminal mastermind 21:31:43 THANK YOU 21:34:42 How do some and many work anyway 21:35:16 Who knows 21:35:21 some and many only make sense in alternatives where the same action can either succeed or fail at different times. 21:35:57 Digging up old conversations 21:35:59 Like bones 21:36:00 most simple monads do not have that property. 21:36:13 it's called "logreading" 21:37:06 So they are useless for the Alternative instances that come with Control.Applicative 21:37:08 State(T) and IO can do it, but neither Maybe, Reader or Writer give that property. 21:38:13 Reader doesn't allow you to modify the values you read, and Writer doesn't allow you to read them 21:38:40 Maybe doesn't have any "side-values" 21:38:43 Neither does [] 21:40:20 -!- mroman has left. 21:41:01 > runState (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 10); put (x+1); return x) 0 21:41:03 No instance for (Control.Monad.MonadPlus 21:41:03 Data.Functor.I... 21:41:26 oh hm 21:42:11 > runStateT (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 10); put (x+1); lift $ Just x) 0 21:42:13 Just ([0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9],10) 21:42:17 there you go 21:42:21 FreeFull: ^ 21:43:30 State alone doesn't have the Alternative part. 21:44:25 Is this StateT Int Maybe 21:44:37 probably Integer, by defaulting 21:45:45 > runStateT (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 3); put (x+1); lift $ [x]) 0 -- seeing what happens with lists 21:45:47 [([0,1,2],3),([0,1],2),([0],1),([],0)] 21:46:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:47:30 > evalStateT (many $ do x <- get; guard (x < 3); put (x+1); lift $ [x]) 0 21:47:32 [[0,1,2],[0,1],[0],[]] 21:49:01 right, with lists the failure case is _always_ included after the success, so you get an automatic branch at each iteration that doesn't completely fail 21:49:24 i'm sure that could be used for _something_ :P 21:49:57 sadly it's in the wrong order to give an infinite list. hm... 21:50:02 :k Backward 21:50:04 Not in scope: type constructor or class `Backward' 21:50:05 ^list 21:50:06 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 21:50:06 :k Backwards 21:50:08 Not in scope: type constructor or class `Backwards' 21:50:13 What, again? 21:50:42 Bah, I can't watch sound ATM 21:50:57 ...I really need to fix my graphics card driver thingy on my computer 21:50:58 hussie is incredibly silly 21:51:19 oerjan: buuuuuuuut nobody will know that 21:51:19 Arc_Koen: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 21:51:28 :t forwards 21:51:30 Not in scope: `forwards' 21:51:31 :k Backwards 21:51:32 Not in scope: type constructor or class `Backwards' 21:51:32 that's the problem when we just say "I just proved this language is TC" 21:51:52 * oerjan swats lambdabot for not having Backwards -----### 21:51:52 We need a time machine and ask Alan Turing 21:51:59 And Alonzo Church 21:52:05 Arc_Koen: :/ 21:52:22 Sure, considering the list to have success/failure is one possible way to look at it, and is a reasonable way to do so in some circumstances. 21:52:25 @messages 21:52:25 oerjan said 42m 5s ago: chris pressey has quandaries about whether it is TC unless it can do TC computation on data given through the language's official input method - which i don't use at all : 21:52:25 P 21:52:25 oerjan said 41m 47s ago: s/it/a language/ 21:52:25 oerjan said 39m 30s ago: aww. well you can do an implementation that actually handles input, then. 21:52:25 oerjan said 35m 41s ago: Hey, maybe you can make an implementation that doesn't use the _stack_. or only the top element, that is. 21:52:27 oerjan said 33m 2s ago: hm wait you need the stack to use ! :( 21:52:50 oh I just watched this fun time travel series pilot 21:53:07 apparently the pilot wasn't a success because they didn't make the series 21:53:26 why do they keep canceling all my favourite time travel series :( 21:53:33 Fiora, what's the music to the update so I can hum it while it's muted? 21:53:51 Arc_Koen, did you hear the time travel Irregular Podcasts? 21:53:55 nope 21:54:02 I'm npt really into podcasts 21:54:17 http://irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/ numbers 14, 17, and 18 21:54:21 They're more like radio plays 21:54:42 Taneb, if it helps, the song is Elevatorstuck 21:54:53 ok I'll listen to them right now 21:55:31 Thanks 21:55:46 but you know deep down I feel no time travel series can be truly realistic 21:55:57 This one goes for silliness 21:56:01 Taneb: it's like, the elevator music 21:56:05 because what you could do if you had a time machine is SO HUGE 21:56:22 Arc_Koen, Primer is about as realistic it gets 21:56:27 so any use of a time machine shown in a series is *nothing* compared to its actual potential 21:56:34 Primer, hmm 21:56:38 I'll look into it 21:57:02 What a silly Homestuck update 21:57:05 And goodnight, folks 21:57:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:57:41 oh wait Backwards won't help for this 21:57:43 Taneb: #14 is really weird 21:57:54 I think he's listing all bacteria he knows 22:00:08 -!- Bike has joined. 22:03:13 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 22:13:02 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:18:12 Do you like this idea of the INI for describing preferred input and so on of NES/Famicom game? http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=108450#p108450 22:19:24 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:17 Is it bad that I don't entirely understand FlexibleContexts UndecidableInstances etc., and plan on letting GHC tell me if I ever need them? 22:20:41 note that if you follow ghc's advice like that, you might end up getting redundant options. 22:21:33 in my last program, it suggested several things before FlexibleInstances, all of which are implied by it 22:22:01 (i think FlexibleContexts was one) 22:31:04 `run paste http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15934 22:31:40 `pastelogs Trivia: 22:32:17 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21731 22:32:40 oh he left. 22:39:25 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 22:54:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:54:08 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:54:11 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 22:54:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:11:00 Hey, who wants to buy one ten thousandth of my post-tax income for all time? 23:11:06 Only $750. This is not an offer. 23:15:39 on ten thousandth? 23:15:41 hmm 23:15:43 no 23:17:06 How long do you intend to be alive? 23:29:22 -!- DH____ has joined. 23:29:37 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:33:53 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:34:01 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 23:38:35 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:40:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:40:51 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 23:43:38 hmm, that translates to more than $7.5 million lifetime earnings = a good deal 23:43:50 that seems likely, I guess 23:43:53 given inflation 23:44:02 although, you need to take into account alternative investments 23:44:07 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:44:10 D&D multiplication is weird 23:44:16 also there's a potential loophole; if you do the deal with 10 thousand different people 23:44:34 then you get $7.5 million, which is enough to live off, and so never have to make any money at all and so don't have to pay them back 23:44:44 Sgeo: think of it as added percentages 23:44:51 it's not ×2, it's +100% 23:46:54 o.O, and that works out identically? 23:46:56 Hm 23:47:17 -!- Bike has joined. 23:48:25 Yes, D&D multiplication does work like that, although the DM which I play with always uses actual multiplication. I too think they write it like that wrongly; in Icosahedral RPG rules they should be written what is meant instead, whether it is x2 or +100% or whatever!! 23:52:08 Dungeons & Dragons, the original roll-playing game. 23:54:35 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:54:52 ais523: you'd have to make the deals simultaneously though 23:54:59 Receiving $750 is income 23:55:37 hmm 23:56:12 yeah but you'd still end up with quite a lot, after rounding errors 23:56:17 around half, I think, maybe a bit more 23:56:33 -!- Bike has joined. 23:59:19 > sum [ x*0.075 | x <- [0..9999] ] 23:59:20 3749624.9999999995 23:59:52 > sum [ x*0.075 | x <- [0..9999] ] / 7500000 23:59:54 0.49994999999999995 2013-03-11: 00:00:07 a _bit_ 00:01:30 (that's the amount you have to pay back, btw) 00:02:08 wait, except it was post-tax 00:02:28 What kind of tax applies to this 00:02:42 Doesn't the american tax form have a field for "illegal activities" 00:02:59 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 00:03:03 something like that 00:03:52 there's supposed to be a way to declare those without being caught, since otherwise it would be against the 5th amendment to have to declare them 00:03:57 iirc 00:04:46 I thought that was just there so that the government could prosecute you twice 00:05:04 Once for illegal activities; and then for not paying tax on those activities 00:05:36 not what i heard 00:07:18 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:16:13 Is it just me, or is Haskell probably a good language for expressing D&D stuff? 00:16:59 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:17:23 validDruid (Alignment Neural _) = True; validDruid (Alignment -- 00:17:40 I hope nobody minds that I paste things I see in here to other people sometimes. 00:17:42 erk, can't use Neutral as a constructor for both GoodEvilAxis and LawChaosAxis 00:17:43 Apropos of nothing. 00:18:14 Also s/Neural/Neutral/ 00:18:48 Yes, I can see that you can't 00:18:54 You have to try something else 00:18:56 Doesn't fourth ed simplify the alignment system ayway. 00:18:58 anyway* 00:19:08 Bike: Yes, in a *stupid* way. 00:19:11 I guess d20srd isn't 4th ed? 00:19:17 Also, OOTS is 3.5 00:19:34 * Bike just got out of a 4e game, knows shit about the rules other than that they're a favored target of grognards 00:19:54 And I am in fact playing a neutral druid. 00:19:56 * Bike eyes Sgeo 00:20:04 NN druid? 00:20:10 yes. 00:20:29 OK 00:20:34 Bike, did I say you can't? 00:20:52 I'm just miffed at having to use different words for Neutral 00:21:24 No, I just meant because a neutral druid was your example :P 00:21:24 Actually you can use the same word for both (in a kind of hackish way) by using GADTs 00:21:27 are you stalking me etc 00:22:10 data AlignmentOn :: * -> * where Good :: AlignmentOn GoodEvilAxis; Evil :: AlignmentOn GoodEvilAxis; Lawful :: AlignmentOn LawfulChaoticAxis; Chaotic :: AlignMentOn LawfulChaoticAxis; Neutral :: AlignmentOn anyAxis , HTH 00:22:37 data AlignmentAxis :: * -> * where { Neutral :: forall x. AlignmentAxis x; Good :: AlignmentAxis GoodEvil; Evil :: AlignmentAxis GoodEvil; Lawful :: AlignmentAxis LawChaos; Chaotic :: AlignmentAxis LawChaos; } 00:22:50 Bike, well, Druids have to be neutral at least on one axis 00:22:56 Took me a bit too long to work that out 00:23:02 yes but i am being silly. 00:23:08 "Neutral good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil." is a bit verbose 00:23:09 (Unlike the serious Haskell discussion here) 00:23:24 data Alignment = Alignment (AlignmentAxis LawChaos) (AlignmentAxis GoodEvil); 00:23:41 Now you can call them both Neutral if you want to. 00:23:48 (alt.: insult of haskell based on comparison to toy morality that is the D&D alignment system) 00:26:31 Bike: i am sorry but my evil plans must _not_ be referred to outside this channel. i hope you understand. 00:26:36 Now to make Icosahedral alignment, it is the same as 3.5e except that there is also a "creature kind alignment entry", which is a bit more complicated, now either axis can be X for "don't care", and there is also a prefix which can be S (stereotypical), A (always), U (unaligned), or X (don't care). This is more complicated. 00:26:45 oerjan: your what 00:26:58 no, not my what. my evil plans. 00:27:04 hth. 00:27:08 Oh. 00:27:22 oerjan: What about references to the timestamp of the message of your evil plan of the channel? 00:27:42 zzo38: dubious. 00:29:12 (S is the most common alignment for intelligent creatures, A is the most common alignment for outsiders, U is the most common alignment for normal animals and simple constructs, and X is the most common alignment for normal humans.) 00:30:11 Icosahedral RPG is more mathematical than D&D, so probably many more things (but still not everything) can be expressed in Haskell in some ways, too. 00:30:44 What does something being "more mathematical" mean 00:31:52 What do *you* think??? 00:32:42 Uh, I don't know. So I asked. 00:32:59 I don't entirely know either. 00:33:38 data AlignmentBias = AlignmentBias AlignmentMode (Maybe (AlignmentAxis LawChaos)) (Maybe (AlignmentAxis GoodEvil)); 00:35:57 newtype Mana = Mana (Color -> Natural); newtype Multimana = Multimana (Mana -> Natural); -- Not a computable representation of multimana, also allows it to be infinite, which it might not supposed to be 00:37:03 (Map Mana Natural) might be a more precise representation 00:37:17 * Sgeo is somewhat surprised that Mark of Justice is an actual spell 00:37:36 -!- tromp__ has joined. 00:37:52 I made up some spells for Dungeons&Dragons game. 00:39:13 -!- coppro_ has joined. 00:39:21 If you are playing a NN druid, can you give the other details of the character? (animal companions, character species, etc) 00:41:34 In other words, a mana is a multiset of colors (where the "colors" are w,u,b,r,g), and a multimana is a multiset of manas, and forms a semiring. 00:41:51 That is what I mean by being "more mathematical". 00:44:17 -!- Bike has quit (*.net *.split). 00:44:17 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (*.net *.split). 00:44:17 -!- tromp_ has quit (*.net *.split). 00:44:17 -!- jconn has quit (*.net *.split). 00:44:17 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split). 00:44:34 Now is it understandable? 00:55:01 Dear Google: My dad was _not_ talking about a clear pharmacy. 00:55:27 (He was saying 'call your father') 00:59:10 your dad... refers to himself in the third person 00:59:12 formally 01:00:21 Only when leaving a voicemail. 01:02:37 I should start treating my YouTube favorites as more of a queue. Currently it's very stacklike 01:02:49 I so rarely look at the earliest things I favorited 01:06:09 Phantom_Hoover: I frequently refer to someone I'm talking to in the third person if I think other people might be reading and confused as to who it's addressed at 01:06:32 just like I treat days in the third person (rather than "today") if there might be a delay in the message, or timezone issues 01:09:25 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:10:26 slightly related, blogs where you have to hunt around to find either the message posting date or the author's name are a pet peeve of mine. 01:11:12 -!- ais523 has quit. 01:11:35 ALSO PEOPLE QUITTING JUST AS I RESPOND TO THEM 01:11:38 hth. 01:14:17 i hate blogs which don't let you page through posts easily 01:47:42 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:49:03 o.O hsc2hs is a thing that's part of the Haskell Platform? 01:49:07 Hmm, maybe... 01:50:02 :k Free 01:50:04 Not in scope: type constructor or class `Free' 01:50:04 Perhaps you meant `Tree' (imported from Data.Tree) 01:50:13 I'm sure I tried it 01:51:39 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 01:51:51 -!- Frooxius has joined. 01:58:28 Nothing wrong with using fixIO directly if I understand it better than DoRec, right? 01:59:55 -!- carado_ has joined. 02:01:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:01:42 * tswett ponders the free monad. 02:02:31 Yeah, that's trivial to come up with. data FreeM a where FBind :: FreeM a -> (a -> FreeM b) -> FreeM b; FReturn :: a -> FreeM a 02:02:41 wow, intrade just shut down 02:03:14 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:04:19 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado. 02:05:31 Is the play money one still up/ 02:06:07 Well, they say that they're "ceasing trading, settling all open positions, and ceasing all banking transactions". 02:06:21 Technically, the play money one isn't any of those; it's just a game. 02:06:39 Though the play money one might have been tied to real-money numbers, and those numbers no longer exist. 02:06:42 I don't know. 02:07:21 intrade.net says the playmoney one has been moved to play.intrade.com, and play.intrade.com is down 02:07:22 Sgeo: the options for monadic recursion are in a bit of a mess, with them just recently deciding to switch which one they're deprecating. so in ghc head DoRec is deprecated, but the other option now includes both the mdo and rec keywords with slightly different meanings. 02:07:25 "The service is not available. Please try again later." 02:07:46 Wait, that thing I came up with above isn't the free monad, because it isn't a monad. 02:07:58 Hmmm. 02:08:07 oerjan, fixIO uses unsafeInterleaveIO, but I can write the operator I need without it. Should I still use fixIO? 02:08:12 The interleaving can't hurt, can it? 02:08:41 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 02:08:42 tswett: istr there are at least two implementations of free monads on hackage, one i think is free and the other is called operational 02:08:58 Sgeo: it's _supposed_ to do the right thing :P 02:09:43 but if you are not _actually_ doing value recursion across IO actions, then i suppose you shouldn't really use fixIO either. 02:10:02 Sgeo: what operator are you trying to write? 02:10:59 oerjan, I have a library that has an addEvent function, which returns a Unique. I need that Unique in order to remove the event handler. I want to write a thing that makes an event only run 1 time, so basically it would take an event handler and make it also cancel the event at the end. 02:11:33 Probably would have to take the place of addEvent 02:12:03 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:12:10 ok i don't immediately see why that requires any recursion 02:12:35 oh hm right 02:12:47 Need the result of addEvent in the thing I pass to addEvent 02:12:53 you want an event to see its own Unique. 02:13:05 But I don't see why that would need unsafeInterleaveIO... I think 02:13:31 well are you writing addEvent yourself? 02:13:34 No 02:14:03 what's its type? IO () -> IO Unique ? 02:14:46 i would think that requires fixIO yes. 02:15:04 Not quite, but along those lines 02:15:42 well if its actually type doesn't have something else allowing you to sneak in the Unique, then you still need fixIO. 02:16:19 Why not passing in an MVar Unique instead of a Unique? 02:16:21 etc. 02:16:34 i mean, if it was addEvent :: (Unique -> IO ()) -> IO Unique, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. :) 02:16:43 oh right, you could do that. 02:17:47 But I guess there isn't really a reason not to use fixIO, is there? And better to avoid writing custom code for a thing 02:20:21 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:20:47 fixIO is probably prettier than MVars, even if it uses mutable vars underneath. 02:20:57 and unsafeInterleaveIO. 03:07:08 Other thing that continuation monad does is such as http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Bruijndejx does continuation do that in other programming languages too or only in Haskell? 03:13:53 zzo38: i'm sure you can do it in e.g. scheme although you would have to make the f () equivalent expressions into thunks or the PutZero etc. into macros to avoid the continuations being called early, since scheme is a strict language. 03:15:02 oerjan: Can you give an example? 03:15:37 :t cont $ \f -> Just (f ()) 03:15:38 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = Maybe a0 03:15:38 In the return type of a call of `f' 03:15:38 In the first argument of `Just', namely `(f ())' 03:15:56 hm... 03:16:18 That obviously won't work! What are you trying to make? 03:16:43 i'm just checking the type of what you wrote in the article 03:16:45 :t cont 03:16:46 ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a 03:18:31 The type of what I wrote in the article uses a recursive datatype, so Maybe doesn't work 03:18:45 right 03:21:24 oh wait now i see the problem 03:21:50 scheme doesn't have a direct equivalent to calling the _top_ continuation directly. 03:22:21 so maybe you need to do something else. 03:22:38 perhaps delimited continuations could do it. 03:23:41 which i don't understand very well, but i recall haskell continuation monads can emulate them 03:24:13 What I know is that the example I have given doesn't use callCC at all, and I'm not sure if it could reasonably be written with callCC. 03:26:14 i suspect not. 03:27:25 -!- copumpkin has quit. 03:27:50 -!- copumpkin has joined. 03:28:01 -!- trout has changed nick to function. 03:28:26 it seems like it's more like coroutines maybe 03:31:32 oerjan, haskell continuation monad is delimited. cont corresponds directly to shift 03:31:43 -!- jconn has joined. 03:31:55 O, it is? Then that would work, I suppose. 03:32:22 aha 03:33:04 Does Scheme and other programming languages have that, and if so would it function in a same or similar way? 03:33:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:34:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:34:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 03:34:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:36:24 scheme doesn't have it built-in, but it can supposedly be implemented using ordinary continuations and a mutable variable - however oleg kiselyov and others have critisized that this doesn't fit well with the rest of the language (because things break when you mix it with certain other things, including other ordinary continuations) 03:36:42 *criticized 03:36:47 Continuation are usually done with call/cc but I find law of excluded middle continuations are usually more clear to understand to me. 03:37:35 oerjan: Then would there be better ways to do such thing in Scheme other than continuations, if that would be the case? 03:41:24 from wikipedia's delimited continuation article: (define (yield x) (shift k (cons x (k (void))))) 03:42:29 assuming Sgeo's claim that shift = cont, that looks similar to your code in a way 03:43:30 Want me to run some examples of shift/reset on wikipedia? 03:43:31 zzo38: well the claim is you need to take _delimited_ continuations as the primitive building block and build the rest of the control structures from those to make it fit together 03:43:47 @let reset = flip runCont 03:43:49 Defined. 03:43:50 :t reset 03:43:51 (a -> c) -> Cont c a -> c 03:43:59 oops 03:44:02 @let reset = flip runCont id 03:44:03 :2:1: 03:44:04 Multiple declarations of `reset' 03:44:04 Declared at: ... 03:44:09 @unlet reset 03:44:10 TemplateHaskell is not enabled 03:44:14 uh 03:44:15 @undefine 03:44:19 @undefine reset 03:44:26 @let reset = flip runCont id 03:44:28 Defined. 03:44:32 @let shift = cont 03:44:33 that scraps _all_ definitions, there is no way to remove a particular one 03:44:34 Defined. 03:44:37 Oh, oops 03:44:43 -!- SirCmpwn has joined. 03:44:46 :t reset 03:44:47 Cont c c -> c 03:45:06 but given that, everyone has to wipe out everything occasionally. 03:45:20 > 2 * (reset (1 + (shift $ \k -> k 5))) 03:45:21 Ambiguous occurrence `shift' 03:45:22 It could refer to either `L.shift', defined a... 03:45:33 uh? 03:45:40 dammit is the housemate knocking on the wall because of my typing... 03:45:55 > 2 * (reset (1 + (cont $ \k -> k 5))) 03:45:57 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont a0 a0)) 03:45:57 aris... 03:46:00 hm 03:46:52 > 2 * (reset $ do { c <- (cont $ \k -> k 5); return (1 + c)}) 03:46:54 12 03:47:04 "yay"? 03:50:16 :t shift 03:50:17 Ambiguous occurrence `shift' 03:50:17 It could refer to either `L.shift', defined at :2:1 03:50:17 or `Data.Bits.shift', 03:53:17 :t L.shift 03:53:19 ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a 03:54:33 > 2 * (reset (1 + (L.shift $ \k -> k 5))) 03:54:35 No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Control.Monad.Trans.Cont.Cont a0 a0)) 03:54:35 aris... 03:55:55 oerjan, it's still an issue of shift giving a Cont ... 03:56:04 I think there is a thing that enables that style though 03:56:30 Can <$> be used? 03:56:40 Yes 03:56:43 Cont r is a monad 03:56:47 > 2 * (reset ((1 +) <$> (L.shift $ \k -> k 5))) 03:56:49 12 03:58:35 It can also make ContT () IO a -> IO [a] is possible, too. 03:59:23 It doesn't work with ContT on other monads, and it also doesn't work ContT () IO a -> IO a 04:07:01 Do you know if there is a way to convert a list of connections between 74xx components into a Verilog code? 04:08:01 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:16:56 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:19:27 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:19:49 -!- augur has joined. 04:45:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:45:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 04:58:35 :t asks 04:58:37 MonadReader r m => (r -> a) -> m a 04:58:43 Ok, so I'm not hallucinating it 05:00:55 > ask (+) 1 2 05:00:56 3 05:00:59 > asks (+) 1 2 05:01:01 3 05:01:06 WHAT'S SO HARD 05:04:10 Hopefully you can understand what ContT () IO a -> IO [a] is meaning? 05:04:23 Would you ever use such a thing in some program, though? 05:04:50 _probably_ not 05:10:02 :t ask 05:10:03 MonadReader r m => m r 05:10:07 er 05:10:20 Is (r->) a MonadReader? 05:10:26 * oerjan whistles innocently 05:10:30 COULD BE 05:11:10 * Sgeo remembers someone saying that ask and asks are both id 05:11:18 But I thought that was conceptual 05:11:19 sometimes i think one should make an entire langauge based on monads 05:12:06 DAE THINK THAT ($) IS LITERALLY ID? 05:12:21 HULK SMASH 05:13:30 > let ($) = ask in length $ "foo" 05:13:32 3 05:24:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:28:15 myname: Make one based on monads on other categories too 05:29:15 I think Gregor is going to kill me 05:29:22 I am laughing hysterically at something he introduced me to, and I'm eating. 05:30:36 Kill you by what? The food, which is poisoned or whatever? 05:30:47 -!- carado_ has joined. 05:32:05 zzo38, by making me choke on my food 05:32:15 Because I'm laughing while eating 05:32:21 O, yes, that too 05:32:27 I forgot about that. 05:33:35 pesky human esophagi 05:35:20 pesky randall munroe ruining math 05:38:00 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:40:25 Math is ruined? 05:40:48 at least math notation is ruined in today's xkcd 05:57:11 @hoogle usafeCoerce 05:57:11 No results found 05:57:15 @hoogle unsafeCoerce# 05:57:16 No results found 05:57:29 Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce 05:57:45 @hoogle unsafeCoerce 05:57:45 Unsafe.Coerce unsafeCoerce :: a -> b 05:57:51 speling hleps 05:58:03 usafeCoerce was how it was spelled in a comment 05:58:12 ah 05:58:13 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.6.0.1/doc/html/src/Unsafe-Coerce.html#unsafeCoerce 05:58:19 -- See Note [Unsafe coerce magic] in basicTypes/MkId 05:58:19 -- NB: Do not eta-reduce this definition, else the type checker 05:58:19 -- give usafeCoerce the same (dangerous) type as unsafeCoerce# 05:58:46 Then report that mistake 06:00:57 so the question is, how can unsafeCoerce# possibly be more dangerous 06:02:25 I think they mean the type is more dangerous 06:02:34 (That still doesn't explain it, though) 06:05:56 the types listed are the same... 06:08:21 I thought it was something like unsafeCoerce# :: forall (a :: ??) (b :: ?). a -> b 06:10:17 so it doesn't show any difference when the types are shown without their kinds 06:10:31 :k (->) 06:10:32 * -> * -> * 06:11:02 they removed those special kinds from -> though... 06:11:47 Some functions uses it though, such as function with # 06:12:59 A Coyoneda f a can be converted into an f a if f is a Functor? 06:13:13 Sgeo: Yes 06:45:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:57:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:13:33 -!- Bike has joined. 07:14:36 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: See ya.). 07:24:08 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 07:32:23 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:38:42 -!- Snowyowl has quit (Quit: Page closed). 07:53:00 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:23:04 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:23:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:53:40 -!- monqy has joined. 09:03:49 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:08:06 -!- Jafet has joined. 09:25:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:25:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:35:49 -!- nooga has joined. 10:02:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:09:12 -!- azaq23 has joined. 10:10:24 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:24:58 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:23:00 -!- Taneb has quit. 11:25:55 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:59:22 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:28:17 -!- boily has joined. 12:28:20 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 12:28:30 -!- boily has joined. 12:31:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:42:31 -!- metasepia has joined. 12:43:11 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 12:44:30 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:49:18 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:54:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:19:14 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:22:05 -!- carado has joined. 14:30:55 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 14:30:55 -!- TodPunk has quit (*.net *.split). 14:30:55 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split). 14:30:56 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 14:31:02 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:31:03 -!- atehwa has joined. 14:31:08 -!- TodPunk has joined. 14:31:18 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:31:30 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:32:21 -!- aloril has joined. 14:37:06 -!- augur has joined. 14:41:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:07:12 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:29:23 -!- hagb4rd2 has quit (Quit: hagb4rd2). 15:33:58 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:34:35 -!- carado_ has joined. 15:35:07 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:41:21 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 15:42:48 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:48:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:50:48 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:00:04 -!- elliott_ has joined. 16:00:23 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:00:35 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 16:18:47 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 16:40:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 17:00:32 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:01:54 -!- Jafet has joined. 17:06:10 I am outstanded at my ability to put papers into a bag 17:06:19 Need to clear out my school bag... 17:06:31 I appear to have broken physics 17:07:29 outstanded? 17:07:53 Outstanded 17:08:03 I think I was going for astonished 17:12:44 you should try «fasciné». it has a nice, artsy and classy «é». 17:13:26 Also, its name is surrounded in those foreign-looking French quotamajigs. 17:13:35 «Oooooh» 17:13:37 «Ahhhhh» 17:14:05 «oh là là». you can't get sexier than that. 17:14:27 I thought it was spelled “ou” or something thereabouts. 17:15:27 well, the keys are right next to each other. 17:16:03 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro. 17:44:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:44:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:45:02 -!- augur has joined. 17:57:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:03:30 -!- Bike has joined. 18:06:52 -!- monqy has joined. 18:07:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:17:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:32:41 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:37:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:42:41 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:57:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:58:23 -!- augur has joined. 18:59:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:00:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:29:06 -!- function has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 19:30:46 -!- kallisti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:31:59 -!- dessos has left. 19:37:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:40:10 -!- augur has joined. 19:40:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:47 -!- augur has joined. 19:48:59 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 19:49:36 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:55:01 @hoogle [(a,a)] -> [a] -> [a] 19:55:01 System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a] 19:55:01 Data.Ix inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool 19:55:01 Data.Ix index :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Int 19:56:50 I was thinking there should be a function that takes a list of tuples, and a list of things, and replaces any occurence of something that's a first thing in a tuple with the second thing 19:57:13 Do you have a prorgam to connect Verilog programs to MIDI ports and MIDI files? 19:57:15 Hayoo can't find anything like that 19:58:27 Maybe that would be more efficiently done with a Map 19:59:19 Hoogle isn't giving anything for a map either though 19:59:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:00:58 wouldn't that be built out of a substitute function 20:03:12 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 20:05:26 «oh là là». you can't get sexier than that. <-- but you need to combine it with that strange gesture only french (canadian?) people can make, i learned this from guy delisle's pyongyang comic (the north korean animators could never get it right) 20:06:31 FreeFull, would at least need an Eq constraint 20:06:32 some kind of weird waving of the hand iirc 20:06:44 @hoogle (Eq a) => [(a,a)] -> [a] -> [a] 20:06:44 System.Random randomRs :: (Random a, RandomGen g) => (a, a) -> g -> [a] 20:06:44 Data.Ix inRange :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Bool 20:06:44 Data.Ix index :: Ix a => (a, a) -> a -> Int 20:08:01 youtube provides: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syuwyjzyAy4 20:08:32 @hoogle (Eq a) => [a] -> a -> [a] 20:08:33 Data.List delete :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [a] 20:08:33 Network.CGI.Protocol replace :: Eq a => a -> a -> [a] -> [a] 20:08:33 Data.List (\\) :: Eq a => [a] -> [a] -> [a] 20:09:40 oerjan: «oh là là» is mainly from the other side of the Great Puddle. people here don't use that expression that much. 20:09:58 :t unzip -- Sgeo 20:09:59 [(a, b)] -> ([a], [b]) 20:10:09 oh wait 20:10:10 boily: is it from canadian french? 20:10:13 :t lookup 20:10:15 Eq a => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b 20:10:26 oerjan, it's Freefull who wanted something 20:10:44 :t map . (flip lookup) 20:10:45 Eq a => [(a, b)] -> [a] -> [Maybe b] 20:11:03 :t filterJust 20:11:05 Not in scope: `filterJust' 20:11:06 :t catMaybes . map . (flip lookup) 20:11:08 Couldn't match expected type `[Maybe a0]' 20:11:08 with actual type `[a1] -> [b0]' 20:11:08 Expected type: (a1 -> b0) -> [Maybe a0] 20:11:12 wat 20:11:21 :t (catMaybes .) . map . (flip lookup) 20:11:22 Eq a1 => [(a1, a)] -> [a1] -> [a] 20:11:22 you don't want to remove the nothings either, do you? 20:11:55 well then he needs a default if he's going to keep the type 20:12:32 :t (f .) 20:12:34 (Functor f, Show a, FromExpr b) => f a -> f b 20:12:48 :t map . (fromMaybe ?default .) . flip lookup 20:12:49 (?default::b, Eq a) => [(a, b)] -> [a] -> [b] 20:13:14 My intuition of (f .) is that it pushes f so that it occurs after an argument, a .. wow I'm being incoherent 20:13:15 olsner: no, from France French. 20:13:32 `? boily 20:13:37 boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence. 20:13:53 (just checking which side of the puddle boily means :P) 20:13:59 I need a list of typical noob interjects. Any help? 20:14:04 > (((*) .) . (+)) 3 4 20:14:05 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> a0)) 20:14:05 arising from a use of `M24551... 20:14:19 boily: however guy delisle himself is canadian... 20:14:20 meh 20:14:36 but it may have been work for a french company 20:14:57 oerjan: Has the right type but I've been thinking of a function that doesn't drop things that don't match 20:15:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:15:25 FreeFull, so, if it's found you want the match, if not found you want the original? 20:15:31 oerjan: I don't know who he is. let me wikipedia him... 20:16:31 FreeFull: oh so you really _do_ want it to be b = a. 20:16:35 hm... 20:17:12 boily: oh, you're from the other side of the puddle so when you say the other side of the puddle it's the other other side? 20:17:30 @hoogle subst 20:17:31 Data.ByteString breakSubstring :: ByteString -> ByteString -> (ByteString, ByteString) 20:17:31 Data.ByteString.Char8 breakSubstring :: ByteString -> ByteString -> (ByteString, ByteString) 20:17:31 Data.ByteString findSubstring :: ByteString -> ByteString -> Maybe Int 20:17:33 tch 20:17:43 data SideOfPuddle = ThisSide | OtherSide 20:17:51 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:18:04 data Other side 20:18:11 :t map . (\dict a -> fromMaybe a $ lookup a dict) 20:18:12 Eq b => [(b, b)] -> [b] -> [b] 20:18:30 FreeFull: ^ that one? 20:18:36 olsner: there are some people here from the same puddleside as me, IIRC. but I can't remember who they are. 20:19:03 :t map . flip (\a -> fromMaybe a . lookup a) 20:19:05 Eq a => [(a, a)] -> [a] -> [a] 20:19:59 :t map . flip ((.) <$> fromMaybe <*> lookup) 20:20:01 Eq b => [(b, b)] -> [b] -> [b] 20:20:30 (the last one is probably overdoing pointlessness) 20:22:36 Sgeo: filterJust is a synonym for catMaybes which i just yesterday learned is in reactive-banana for some reason, don't know where else. but catMaybes should be more official. 20:23:25 I need a list of typical noob interjects. Any help? <-- what is a noob interject? 20:24:26 boily: zzo38 is also canadian, this surprises some people. 20:24:41 not french canadian though afair 20:24:53 indeed, I am surprised. 20:25:26 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:25:30 a noob interject is a function that is defined for each noob. 20:25:50 aha. wat. 20:26:21 -!- nooodl has joined. 20:26:30 @hoogle catMaybes 20:26:30 Data.Maybe catMaybes :: [Maybe a] -> [a] 20:26:41 oerjan: an interject that a "noob" would typically use 20:26:57 with noob I mean someone is new to IRC 20:27:04 ne1 20:27:09 (so an IRC noob really) 20:27:16 I said ne1 a lot back in 2001 20:27:19 AnotherTest: but presumably not new to youtube, facebook 20:27:21 oerjan: Looks good 20:27:23 etc. 20:27:29 Although I guess that's not an interject 20:27:31 oerjan: yes, just IRC 20:27:34 oh 20:28:13 AnotherTest: anyone using @nick instead of nick: to address people. lambdabot really helps people get over that fast. :P 20:28:23 oh yes 20:28:25 I need that 20:29:04 @oerjan didn't know about that one. people really do that? 20:29:04 Unknown command, try @list 20:29:26 boily: it has happened several times. it's standard twitter idiom, of course. 20:29:57 (afaiu, i don't have a twitter account.) 20:30:41 (i assume twitter even notifies the addressee, but don't really know.) 20:31:04 sometimes I check if I drunkenly created an account, just to be sure I still don't have any. 20:31:18 -> 20:31:37 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:31:37 →? 20:32:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:34:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:35:19 Can some INTERCAL programs be compiled into Verilog programs? There is INTERCAL into C compiler, but is there INTERCAL into Verilog, VHDL, and INTERCAL into 6502 machine codes? 20:35:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:40:26 zzo38: Have you ever gotten an answer to your random, out-of-the-blue questions like this one? 20:40:51 Sometimes, if people actually know the answer. 20:41:18 (which is sometimes difficult) 20:42:07 -!- clog_ has joined. 20:43:17 -!- oonbotti has joined. 20:43:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:47:14 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:00:59 →? <- "->" is an #esoteric interject which i use roughly equivalently to "afk". i think oklopol started it. 21:02:03 * <-- 21:02:34 zzo38: i expect that question in particular will be more useful to ask when ais523 is here. 21:03:15 seeing as he is both a C-INTERCAL maintainer and a hardware compilation expert 21:04:38 oerjan: OK 21:05:45 I thought it was spelled “ou” or something thereabouts. <-- google seems to insist on "oh", even when i use "o" 21:08:34 Hm 21:10:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:11:05 I have an interview! 21:11:08 With Cablevision! 21:11:29 It's on the same day as the internship that I don't care about anymore though, so don't know how that's going to work out :/ 21:12:13 next up: Sgeo learns time management skills 21:12:21 (then he has to teach them to me) 21:12:43 Crap. 21:12:52 I flat out do not see a way to get from one to the other in time. 21:13:40 Sgeo: i think the trick is supposed to be to check these things _before_ making the appointment. 21:15:32 I suggested Thursday or Friday to the Cablevision person, but the person said Wednesday 21:15:35 remember that time you said "tomorrow would be fine" and then realized you had no idea what you just said and got yourself into 21:15:39 good times 21:17:49 i suspect that telling people "i'm sorry, i have another appointment that day" should in theory make a _positive_ impression, since it tells the other person you actually _have_ a slight amount of time management skills. 21:18:21 Is it too late to call the person and say that? 21:18:43 Or should I reschedule the other appointment? 21:18:43 no, but i suspect it is too late to make a good impression while doing it 21:18:45 I don't know 21:20:22 funny this comes up the day before i have my yearly dentist checkup appointment, and my sleeping schedule is so bad it will be _hell_ to get to it. 21:20:22 I think I need a backbone. 21:20:48 and my sleeping schedule is not predictable enough to reschedule things 21:21:42 I like dentists. I tend to fall asleep on their chairs. 21:22:19 can't you just set an alarm 21:22:26 i don't usually fall asleep at the dentist's, but tomorrow _could_ be an exception. 21:22:52 oerjan, reminder: Don't drive while tired. 21:22:54 Bike: um the most promising method will be to force myself to stay up until the appointment. 21:23:05 your schedule is fucked up man 21:23:05 Sgeo: i don't drive at all these days. 21:23:10 straight fucked 21:23:15 yes. yes it is. 21:23:28 (the appointment is at 2 PM) 21:23:34 @_@ 21:23:45 @localtime oerjan 21:23:46 Local time for oerjan is Mon Mar 11 22:23:46 2013 21:23:49 oerjan: the best beverage to keep you awake I know is yerba mate infused with black coffee instead of hot water. 21:23:58 only use that as a last resort. 21:24:10 oerjan, because of sleep issues, or other reasons? 21:24:14 (about not driving) 21:24:22 i don't have coffee, although i _should_ be able to force myself to a cafeteria. 21:24:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:24:42 Sgeo: no, that's because i don't have the self confidence to drive, also no car. 21:24:47 Ah 21:25:02 I HATE TALKING ON THE PHONE SO MUCH 21:25:16 I feel so restricted from checking stuff while on the phone 21:25:32 Maybe it's because this phone is so broken I have to actually hold it up to my mouth and wear headphones 21:25:37 man remember when phones were for talking 21:25:39 that was so weird! 21:25:49 I'm more comfortable when I use my computer as a phone 21:26:04 I can actually multitask like that 21:26:14 do you then use your phone as a computer 21:27:01 http://media.tumblr.com/2c38ccac77eabfb694a3d4299f7682e5/tumblr_inline_mjereimmXg1qz4rgp.jpg 21:28:03 wow. I want one. 21:30:01 -!- boily has quit (Quit: n'oubliez pas, la banane est un fruit nocturne.). 21:31:17 Incidentally, I've been talking to a recruiter, so they have a vested interest in making sure I get the job 21:31:21 Is this good to say? 21:31:22 "Are there no other days that would work well? I had scheduled an interview for an internship that day, but initially thought that I could do both on the same day. That looks impossible now though. The Cablevision opportunity is more important to me, so I could try to reschedule the other thing." 21:34:22 Sent 21:37:21 Dad's saying I shouldn't have sent that 21:38:05 oops 21:38:14 well why didn't you ask him _first_, then. 21:38:29 He just came home 21:38:34 ah. 21:38:42 bad karma. 21:53:18 Sgeo: so was the plan for your father to stop ruling your life after you graduate, or 21:56:46 I think it helps that the Cablevision person is a recruiter, so if I make a bit of a bad impression, it's with him and not with Cablevision 21:57:16 (Presumably he still wants to make money) 22:11:02 Do you not use phones for talking? 22:11:25 I want to use my PC for talking and my phone for browsing Reddit. 22:11:30 People still use phones for talking? 22:11:35 Oh right yeah, there's Skype isn't there 22:11:41 elliott, hey c'mon now that's not overly controlling 22:12:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:12:46 Do you have a microphone on your PC? 22:13:01 Phantom_Hoover: true! history shows Sgeo's father will limit himself to a reasonable amount of controlling, after all 22:13:28 is sgeo a rogue robot maid built by his father 22:13:33 yes. 22:13:44 keep your fetishes out of this Bike 22:13:58 s/et// 22:14:50 keep your fishes out of this Bike? 22:15:04 Bike is now talking to himself about his fish fetish. 22:15:07 Yes, keep your fishes out of this, too, not only your fetishes 22:15:14 OK. 22:15:16 I will do that. 22:15:34 is Bike a fish 22:16:24 no, everyone knows a fish doesn't need a bike 22:17:16 unless it has a fetish for them 22:31:16 hello 22:31:21 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:32:04 I think bikes are a lure commonly used by fish when they fish 22:32:52 I feel like I really messed up :( 22:33:41 I don't know if I would mention interviews for other jobs to the person interviewing me 22:34:56 Technically, I only mentioned it to a recruiter 22:35:02 unless you're using that other interview to sell yourself... "hey, I'd be happy to take a course in your school, but can we do the interview another day? on that date I already have an interview with the MIT" 22:35:36 isn't the recruiter the guy who interviews you? 22:35:41 or is that an interviewer 22:36:05 The recruiter is a person independent of the company that gets paid when they get someone into a job 22:36:18 oooooooooh ok 22:36:42 I do that with restaurants 22:37:00 -!- clog_ has quit (Quit: ^C). 22:37:10 -!- clog has joined. 22:37:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:37:13 sometimes I can get free meals by having friends over 22:38:26 eating for free makes sets me in a good mood, so I want to come to that place again, so I bring new friends 22:38:31 it's a vicious loop 22:38:55 if you're not careful you might end up never paying again 22:39:28 But the recruiter has no reason to communicate my time management issues to Cablevision, right? 22:40:00 except casual coffee talk 22:40:17 ? 22:40:51 well, casual talk near the coffee machine during the coffee break 22:41:08 "hey, how's the recruitment going" "well, I had to reschedule" "oh, why?" 22:42:17 but since he'll be paid if you get the job, it's probably in his best interests to give them a good impression about you, right? 22:43:12 "The Cablevision opportunity is more important to me, so I could try to reschedule the other thing." will make you sound weak, though 22:43:40 or very interested depending on the circumnstances, I guess 22:43:53 "What would robot Jenny do?" 22:45:42 the obvious criticism "so why didn't you try to reschedule that _first_?" 22:45:45 *+is 22:46:48 Does cablevision have anything to do with eurovision 22:47:18 seems unlikely. 22:48:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:48:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 22:48:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:48:32 -!- variable has joined. 23:03:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:05:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: eat). 23:16:22 -!- carado_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:16:34 -!- carado has joined. 23:17:33 "Criticisms of basic income are only possible when conflating it with minimum/guaranteed income, and criticizing that instead." 23:17:40 That's not POVed at all, Wikipedia. 23:17:43 blah 23:22:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Basic_income&action=history 23:23:05 wow how totally normal huh 23:23:41 Oh, I think Shalizi mentioned this though. 23:37:18 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:47:27 I fear that I may have screwed myself over so badly :( 23:51:20 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:54:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 2013-03-12: 00:08:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:08:52 -!- nooga has joined. 00:16:44 -!- augur has joined. 00:20:08 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:23:30 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:07:25 -!- Yonkie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:07:26 Sgeo: hey stop torturing yourself 01:07:31 just wait for an answer 01:07:43 -!- Yonkie has joined. 01:07:47 Got an email from the recruiter 01:07:55 what did it say 01:08:03 'I will check. I'm not sure. What time is your internship interview?' 01:09:20 well that sounds good 01:10:04 what in those three sentences make you think you've screwed yourself over? 01:11:42 The part where I received the email after saying that I feel like I screwed myself over. 01:13:32 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:14:57 -!- ion has joined. 01:15:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:15:38 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 01:38:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:43:54 I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game today. 01:44:09 I didn't quite advance experience level just yet 01:44:15 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:53:08 I forget. zzo38, do you read OOTS? 01:56:14 No 01:56:30 I read books, mostly 01:57:58 I did manage to find the stuff that they took, along with various other things, so we took back our stuff and left everything else there, and then teleport away, twice, which helps. They had some magic alarm in there but I managed to turn it off 01:58:45 But first I want to see if it has a resonant frequency; maybe that can be used. 02:26:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:36:22 I can't wait to be able to eat! 02:38:11 is your mouth currently glued together 02:38:24 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:39:53 iirc it's mostly tape 02:40:02 I'm being slightly poetic >.>. Just waiting for food to cook. 02:40:10 Well, for water to boil, after which food will be cooking. 02:49:46 @hoogle the 02:49:46 GHC.Exts the :: Eq a => [a] -> a 02:49:46 Text.XHtml.Strict thead :: Html -> Html 02:49:46 Text.XHtml.Frameset thead :: Html -> Html 02:49:50 er 02:49:55 > the [1,2,3] 02:49:56 Not in scope: `the' 02:50:33 > GHC.Exts.the [3,4,5] 02:50:36 Not in scope: `GHC.Exts.the' 02:50:41 k 02:51:19 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:52:49 it's the element of the list if they're all equal 02:52:50 otherwise an error 02:53:21 great 02:53:38 :( 02:54:14 why frown 02:55:07 errors are ugly 02:55:13 doesn't seem like something that needs to be in GHC.Exts ... 02:55:27 it's used by one of the sugars 02:55:34 i think "SQL-like" extended list comprehensions 03:32:46 shachaf: a friend of mine is thinking of buying a house in EPA! 03:33:01 he says the crime rate is a lot lower than it used to be 03:33:09 school districts are still bad but he isn't planning to have kids 03:36:05 he also says the violence is mostly criminals killing each other 03:36:30 which is the kind of statement that makes me uncomfortable in a social sense, but is probably ok as part of the personal calculation on where to buy a house 03:41:17 o.O 03:49:51 If criminals want to kill each other, well, that is why they are criminals. Just hope they don't kill the other people who are not the criminals that are killing each other all the time. If they are ciminal then hopefully the police catch them and take them to jail, and then kill each other while they are in there (as long as they don't kill the "small" criminals) it makes the police work less job! There is good and bad to good and bad things too. 03:50:43 uh, wow dude. 03:51:25 That is why criminals should only kill each other while in jail. Outside of jail, they should be prevented to do so and should get caught by police instead. 03:52:20 But if you want to buy a house, that isn't the point. 03:52:26 and in jail, it should be an arena 03:52:28 with cameras 03:52:32 and entertainment 03:52:41 in fact, let's make it an island 03:52:42 copumpkin: Yes; security cameras. 03:53:01 yes, the cameras safeguard security and peace 03:53:12 the populace will watch the games and will be peaceful 03:53:34 copumpkin: No, I mean an ordinary jail, not an island. 03:53:42 oh, but I don't 03:54:05 The point to buying a house is: how much it cost, how much you are nearby what you need to go to, how many rooms the house have, and so on. 03:54:38 "In a very different universe where every point in space were independent from all others, white noise images would be common place." 03:54:41 you wouldn't care if your house was right next to a slaughterhouse? 03:54:59 copumpkin: How much noise does a slaughterhouse make? 03:55:15 zzo38: lots, constant squeals of pain and death and fear 03:55:17 well, that would probably violate zoning restrictions. though i live next to a butcher and it's quite tolerable 03:55:23 Bike: O, do you mean the white noise universe? 03:55:34 There's a white noise universe? 03:55:42 copumpkin: Then I suppose if there is a lot of noise I wouldn't want to live there too much. 03:56:21 thank you zzo38 03:56:31 Thzo38? 03:56:38 Kinda hard to pronounce. 03:57:24 Some people get around zoning restrictions that are put in place after the house is already built, by jacking the roof up several metres and then change the basement, change each part individually until you made an entirely new house, which still violates the zoning rule but is considered OK because you just changed the old house, rather than making the new one. 03:57:40 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 04:14:10 It occurs to me that leap seconds should be mentioned on Snopes. 04:14:39 "There are some minutes with 61 seconds" totally sounds like a silly idea of the type that Snopes would debunk 04:15:03 time suxxx 04:18:09 At what time does the pope start? 04:18:52 Oh, has the conclave finished? 04:20:57 it hasn't started 04:21:43 mass begins in 4 hours, and after that the conclave will begin with a single round of voting 04:21:49 then 4 per day until there is a winner 04:23:43 Sgeo: did you know they had February 30 in Sweden in 1712 04:24:53 so, i guess that answers zzo38's question 04:25:08 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:25:18 related: did you know that between popes, the vatican insignia include a striped umbrella 04:25:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sede_vacante.svg 04:27:48 america's next top pope 04:28:20 eh, wasn't benny unpopular with the americans? 04:28:37 don't know much about popes tbh 04:28:47 he was unpopular with me and all my friends but... 04:29:33 i'm mostly thinking of Beaton's comics about John Paul II, not that she's American 04:33:42 i think it's more that JPII was unusually popular 04:34:38 -!- dessos has joined. 04:35:00 "As part of his special emphasis on the universal call to holiness, he beatified 1,340 people and canonised 483 saints, more than the combined tally of his predecessors during the preceding five centuries" dang 04:36:00 that's more than a full calendar's worth of saints 04:36:20 i've never been clear on how saint days work anyway 04:36:49 i wonder if during the eleventh century or so some guy was like "uh, guys? we have a thousand years worth of saints here, how can we have so many feast days if you keep canonizing people" 04:37:47 -!- monqy has joined. 04:39:57 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 04:46:41 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:00:09 They could make one day with many saints, I suppose, if they need to. 05:00:35 Including fictitious saints, if they want to, but usually they have removed them from the calendar in those cases. 05:03:35 (such as Filumena) 05:10:24 However: The removal of an individual from the calendar does not necessarily indicate that he or she is not a saint. 05:21:08 (But it is not really known if Filumena existed or not; there is evidence both ways.) 05:22:43 Wikipedia's just showing me a 1946 play... 05:23:42 I think I just thought of a real-world use case for newLIsp :/ 05:24:39 Sgeo: What such use? 05:24:41 Or partly anyway -- I think Smalltalk could do it too, but then maybe macros are also useful 05:25:05 Suppose you want a continuation-based web server that can serialize the continuations 05:25:21 good supposition 05:25:22 newLisp can easily serialize any part of its state, if I understand correctly. 05:25:36 -!- ogrom has joined. 05:26:08 (Maybe it needs to scale up a lot and storing the continuations so storing all the continuations in memory isn't feasible, or something) 06:00:10 -!- Cutay has joined. 06:00:10 Hey 06:00:31 Hay you! 06:00:40 Hey guys 06:00:50 Yes, what is it, please? 06:00:54 `relcome Cutay 06:01:00 ​Cutay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 06:01:04 What's up 06:01:23 Cutay: The ceiling is up, and the light is up, and the sky is up. 06:01:40 Wow. That's not what I ment 06:01:46 -!- Cutay has left. 06:01:56 haaaaa. 06:02:30 The z axis is up. 06:02:48 y, surely 06:02:57 GPS satellites are up! 06:03:26 Compared to me most of them are probably pretty far to the left or something. 06:03:49 What axis you want to be up, depends on your coordinate system 06:04:17 How can I plot the GPS satellites on the horoscope? 06:04:41 aren't they geosynchronous? 06:04:46 i don't think they're orbits are close to ecliptic... 06:04:53 Bike: not afair 06:05:12 *their 06:05:17 *the ecliptic 06:05:54 They don't have to be close to the ecliptic, to know their ecliptic longitude 06:06:09 I also want to plot the GPS satellites on the map of the world (giving their hour angle and declination) 06:07:14 If they're not geosynchronyous they must have to keep track of where they are in their orbits, hm 06:08:53 The map of the world showing the hour angle and declination of the objects, together with their rising/setting/midheaven/nadir lines, are sometimes called "astro-graph" or "astro-map". 06:09:08 i think geosynchronous orbits would be _awful_ for triangulating - they're all in the same circle 06:09:23 Are GPS satellites geosynchronous? 06:09:30 Wouldn't you just have them in different positions? 06:09:37 no, that's what i'm pointing out 06:09:41 So you'd have one over New York and one over Mexico City or whatever 06:10:00 Bike: _all_ geosynchronous orbits are 20000 km over the equator 06:10:06 or thereabouts 06:10:09 oh 06:10:13 oops 06:10:25 that's... pretty obvious, isn't it 06:10:29 yeah 06:10:35 If you can't use geosynchronous orbits for triangulation, then it would be the idea that if you have satellites that need triangulation, remember to don't make them geosynchronous, please. 06:10:43 Will do. 06:11:23 If they are over the equator, then I think their declination will be zero. What are their right ascension? 06:11:36 Furthermore, what is their hour angle? 06:11:39 another thing - if you were close to the equator and they were all over it, then even with perfect conditions you wouldn't be able to distinguish south of equator from north of equator 06:12:00 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 06:12:05 by symmetry it would give the same signal times 06:12:21 i get it, i get it >_< 06:12:27 OK 06:12:28 GOOD 06:12:30 This makes sense. 06:12:51 i won't launch a geolocation satellite network into orbits above the equator, i swear 06:12:54 pinky promise 06:13:05 OK 06:13:05 so they cannot be. although i _do_ recall that the russian GLONASS satellites supposedly have better covering over the poles. 06:16:30 Still I would like to plot these artificial objects in horoscopes and astromaps, and for objects with cameras, including the camera too. 06:16:45 I don't know of any software that will do such things. 06:17:12 There's no software to track the positions of artificial satellites? 06:17:35 Bike: There probably are, but not to create charts like I described. 06:17:40 ...eh, I don't know much astrology, but don't they move relatively kinda fast for astrology anyway? Planets are bad enough. 06:17:42 How GPS does it is the satellites *themselves* send you the positions. 06:18:03 (IIRC the datastream contains the telemetry for all the satellites at the time) 06:18:14 Bike: The moon moves much faster, and houses move much faster than that. The speed at which they move isn't the point though. 06:18:40 (The houses move simply because the Earth rotates.) 06:19:32 I mean, they'd change all the time. 06:19:45 The GLONASS is rising in the house of the lion for two seconds, or whatever 06:20:08 Yes, they would change all the time, but that doesn't mean they don't have any coordinates! 06:25:06 I think there are some corrections and things, but I don't know how difficult that makes it to predict their positions in the future? 06:30:06 Do you know? 06:30:34 I do not. 06:31:08 Some people wanted to remove Pluto from their horoscopes because it is not a planet. That is silly; just because it is not a planet, does not mean that it does not have any coordinates. 06:31:37 (A valid reason to remove Pluto would be if you wanted to avoid plotting too many objects at once.) 06:32:19 Do you agree with me about what reason is silly and what is valid? 06:32:43 I agree that I want to know the sign of which pluton I was born under. 06:33:39 Well, you can calculate that easily with the correct software. 06:34:06 Do you mean the ecliptic longitude of Pluto at the time of your birth? 06:34:23 (The astrological signs are just an angular unit of measurement for ecliptic longitude.) 06:34:39 Er, not pluton, what do you call those things... 06:34:55 Plutino. 06:35:09 O, you mean Plutino. 06:35:50 Your request does not make a lot of sense, as it is written. Please be more specific. 06:36:14 People are usually born under the sign of some planet, right? 06:36:22 There are several plutinos. 06:36:28 Bike: No. 06:36:48 No? 06:36:55 Usually the sign you are born "under" actually refers to the ecliptic longitude of the sun at the time of your birth. 06:37:14 The sign you would actually be directly underneath would be the midheaven sign, not the sun sign. 06:37:39 Planets are said to rule certain signs (this is all arbitrary), but the signs are not planets. 06:37:46 Midheaven has a cooler name. 06:38:10 Is there some possible system of drawing a bijection between when you were born and a plutino? 06:39:03 I suppose it could be possible, but I don't know. 06:39:21 Not a bijection, though. 06:39:48 (since a bijection requires going both ways) 06:40:38 But you could calculate the coordinates of the plutinos at the time of your birth (or at a different time, if you want). 06:42:59 The ecliptic longitude of Pluto right now is 281 degrees, which is 11 Capricorn. 06:43:31 " →? <- "->" is an #esoteric interject which i use roughly equivalently to "afk". i think oklopol started it." i think it's a finnish / even more local thing which i thought was a general irc thing back then. 06:43:33 ("11 Capricorn" means 11 degrees past the beginning of the Capricorn sign.) 06:43:49 oklopol: Maybe; can you figure out? 06:44:04 oklopol: I didn't know that, so maybe it isn't necessarily? 06:44:26 See if other Finnish people say about it. 06:47:14 oklopol: ah 06:48:03 it cannot be finnish, it has no suffixes 06:53:47 Bike: Midheaven has a cooler name than what? 06:53:53 Sun. 06:56:51 midheaven = zenith 06:57:24 Zenith is pretty good too. 07:01:02 Actually they aren't quite the same thing. Zenith is the point directly overhead; midheaven is the ecliptic longitude of the local meridian (that is, the meridian overhead). At noon, the sun is at midheaven; it is not necessarily at zenith. (If the sun is at zenith, this is called lahaina noon.) 07:02:02 well the sun cannot be at zenith at the latitudes most (all?) in this channel live at 07:02:31 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:02:57 Well, yes, that is correct; the sun is only at zenith between the tropics. That doesn't make what I said incorrect, though. 07:03:29 ->:lleniköhän 07:13:17 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:18:45 Does Windows not send the correct commands to the PC speaker? 07:30:06 Running a DOS program to send the commands on Windows seem to treat mode 2,3,4,5 as the same, even though Wikipedia says otherwise. If running on DOSBox, it makes single clicks for all modes other than 3 and 7 (which is equivalent to mode 3). However from the description it seems to be that mode 2 might also generate a continuous tone; DOSBox doesn't do that, though. 07:30:30 "OUT will then remain high until the counter reaches 1, and will go low for one clock pulse. OUT will then go high again, and the whole process repeats itself." 07:31:05 Does it not work directly because the hardware is faulty? 07:31:55 Or is it something Windows does? 07:34:17 Decimal mode does seem to work. 07:35:35 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: you seem quite stressed). 07:36:59 Actually it is correct that mode 2 does not generate a continuous tone. "This mode creates a high output signal that drops low for one input signal cycle (0.8381 uS), which is too fast to make a difference to the PC speaker (see mode 3)." (from osdev) 07:42:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:50:49 kmc: Why? 07:50:57 why which 07:52:35 House in EPA. 07:52:40 Did I miss multiple messages? 07:52:51 * shachaf hasn't been very around. 07:58:32 -!- augur_ has joined. 07:59:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:59:06 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:59:35 -!- wareya has joined. 08:01:15 why buy a house in EPA? uh, I guess because it's cheap and he wants to live somewhere around there 08:03:55 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 08:04:04 what's epa? 08:05:04 Eicosapentaenoic acid 08:07:15 ah, buying a house in acid sounds like a bad deal 08:09:45 it's East Palo Alto 08:09:48 shachaf's hood 08:10:16 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:13:12 gangstahood 08:13:30 shangstahood 09:05:59 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: I bet you like cake). 09:26:33 -!- nooga has joined. 09:30:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: sleep). 10:34:07 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:04:37 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 11:43:46 -!- abumirqaan has quit (*.net *.split). 11:43:47 -!- lahwran has quit (*.net *.split). 11:58:59 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:59:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:55:03 -!- boily has joined. 13:03:39 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:05:37 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:13:05 -!- lahwran has joined. 13:27:16 -!- fftw has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:35:14 -!- fftw has joined. 13:40:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:47:57 -!- abumirqaan has joined. 13:53:43 -!- augur has joined. 14:29:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:30:12 -!- augur has joined. 14:49:04 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 15:00:30 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:03:46 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:04:04 -!- augur has joined. 15:17:01 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 15:20:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:23:45 -!- augur has joined. 15:53:50 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:54:45 test? 15:55:19 -!- metasepia has joined. 15:55:26 ~metar CYUL 15:55:27 CYUL 121550Z 29002KT 10SM -RA FEW006 SCT012 OVC016 06/06 A2980 RMK SF2SC2SC4 SLP093 15:55:55 ah. everything is fine, except for the crappy weather. 15:56:32 ~hello boily 15:56:33 --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi 15:56:36 bad bot. 15:57:58 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:03:51 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 16:03:53 * Sgeo is utterly petrified of his interview tomorrow 16:12:50 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds). 16:19:17 :) 16:19:51 is it a final one ? 16:21:26 Erm, don't know? 16:28:36 Sgeo: so was it rescheduled? 16:30:07 I told the internship person that I wanted to reschedule, but didn't manage to set a date before she left for the day, but she did see that I wanted to reschedule, so if I don't show up to that hopefully it won't be bad 16:30:19 The Cablevision interview is still going on :D 16:31:26 wait, what 16:31:52 http://www.coinheist.com/rubik/a_regular_crossword/ https://github.com/ekmett/ersatz/commit/9e16d70986ad4169160d3e5647dc1c1ca05b49f0 16:32:02 so she heard you telling her you wanted to rescheduled, but then said "oh wait it's 4pm I gotta go" and hung up on you? 16:32:28 she sounds french! 16:32:44 Arc_Koen, email conversation 16:33:05 still that's weird 16:33:38 Considering my delays in replying to her, not really 16:35:40 ok, well, just relax and you'll have a great interview tomorrow 16:47:11 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:48:47 elliott: of course my bot won't answer. it was lunchtime. 16:49:50 very sensible. 16:53:18 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 17:07:33 It be tea time! 17:08:31 some day in my life, I'll have to celebrate tea time. 17:14:31 tea time was earlier, Sgeo 17:14:35 god you're so dumb 17:17:05 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:18:04 "prove that the integral from 0 to N of ln (1 + x) with respect to x is equal to (N + 1) ln (N + 1) - N, where N is a positive constant" 17:18:15 I have no idea where to start with that 17:23:47 Any pointers? 17:24:17 i take it you're not allowed to just use the rules for integrating ln that are found in every calculus text? 17:24:57 That... may be a good idea 17:25:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_integrals_of_logarithmic_functions 17:25:15 thmc 17:25:33 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:25:48 what's the rules for integrating a function composition? in this case int from 0 to N of g(f(x)) dx, where g(x) = ln x and f(x) = x + 1. 17:26:00 Sorry for stupid'ing 17:26:11 Taneb: if you aren't allowed to assume these rules, maybe you can integrate by parts 17:26:14 as in http://www.math.com/tables/integrals/more/ln.htm 17:26:49 Thanks, I'll go with that 17:26:57 boily: I don't think there is a general one 17:27:30 integration by parts is evil, but not as evil as coordinate substitution. 17:27:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitution_rule 17:27:48 that? 17:29:30 something like that. like, you have shapes defined with spherical coordinates, and you need to convert that to cartesian. 17:46:26 -!- Bike has joined. 17:48:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:49:42 Taneb has disconnected. that vicious integral got the better of him, it seems. 17:56:28 Phantom_Hoover, going to try to re-watch that Farscape episode 18:02:11 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:07:48 I'd like to watch some hard sci-fi at some point 18:11:27 there are hard sci-fi tv shows? 18:12:22 you could watch Solaris, I guess, but it's like three hours long and Russian 18:12:35 working without functional extensionality is the definition of pain 18:13:10 a book doesn't count as being watchable? 18:13:27 ghost in the shell: stand alone complex is fun hard(?) scifi 18:13:31 i watched a book for hours but it didn't do shit :( 18:13:46 I've heard good things about planetes as far as hard scifi goes but I need to see that 18:13:47 bookwatching 18:14:06 oh planetes is cool 18:14:13 planetes is cool indeed. 18:14:26 when i thik of hard sci fi i mostly think of weird shit like anything Egan writes, though 18:14:40 actually wow I really do need to see it 18:14:42 maybe after gundam00 18:14:58 `learn bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object. 18:15:06 I knew that. 18:15:40 patlabor is also a realistic scifi series but it's much more 20 minutes into the future and not quite so serious (no cool spaceships or stuff) 18:17:36 ke"egan" mcallister 18:17:38 COINCIDENCE??????? 18:18:03 zardoz ftw 18:19:15 I don't know if I'd have called GitS:SAC "hard", really. 18:19:34 I suppose those things are relative, though. 18:21:12 Except for the Mohs scale of sci-fi hardness, that's pretty absolute. 18:21:30 I think it's based on scratching a book with another book. 18:21:54 you drop one book on the other, corner first 18:21:58 GITS is a manga, that's usually softcover, it can't be very hard. 18:22:10 qed i guess 18:22:49 Sgeo, meanwhile farscape was a tv series from the early 2000s so logically it'd be a video cassette 18:23:03 so: p. hard 18:23:13 PH DVDs are pretty old..... 18:23:19 Ph.D.VDs 18:24:02 pretty sure all the films i watched as a child were on cassette 18:24:29 wp sez dvd didn't become dominant until the mid 2000s 18:24:31 Old but VERSATILE. 18:24:37 well I guess 18:24:55 BUT farscape is 1993-2003 sez wp 18:24:58 2003 is kinda mid 2000s!!! 18:25:04 DVDs are pretty hard but I think you could break them easily? 18:25:18 Or scratch them. 18:25:24 "DVD-Video became the dominant form of home video distribution in Japan when it first went on sale in 1996, but did not become the dominant form of home video distribution in the United States until June 15, 2003, when weekly DVD-Video in the United States rentals began outnumbering weekly VHS cassette rentals, reflecting the rapid adoption rate of the technology in the U.S. marketplace." 18:25:25 1993...???????/ 18:26:11 Bike, but you could definitely scratch paper with a dvd 18:26:48 But what about the covers? 18:27:03 same deal 18:27:28 i think we're missing the real issue which is that elliott has somehow managed to confuse 1999 and 1993 18:27:36 i meant 1999 18:27:45 it's basically the same though 18:27:46 Did you? 18:28:45 elliott: in 1993, I didn't exist 18:28:47 the nineties never existed. it is a conspiracy deployed by the government. you can go straight from 1989 to 2000 without a single significant second having ever occured. 18:28:52 In 1999, I was 5 years old 18:29:17 HA i was FOUR 18:29:33 Get off my lawn. 18:32:11 ha i was uh 18:32:12 um 18:32:14 probably 4 or 5 or something 18:32:28 it's kind of tricky to work out how old you are i think 18:32:32 Off! 18:32:34 it would be easy if months didn't exist 18:32:49 protip, you're younger than me 18:33:43 well that's hard to remember because you're so much more terrible 18:34:21 i'm pretty sure if you get more terrible than you you wrap back around to good 18:35:10 I feel old seeing y'all being young'uns in 1999. I was ten at that time. 18:35:53 omg you were one of the Big Ones 18:36:09 * Bike aims shotgun at elliott 18:36:49 boily: wait I mentally assumed you were like fizzie's age 18:36:57 I guess that is my instinctive reaction to weird foreign people!!! 18:37:20 Phantom_Hoover: I wouldn't call myself a big one. I was kinda scrawny, and still vaguely am. 18:37:36 elliott: I'm not weird, I'm not foreign, and how old is fizzie really& 18:37:38 that doesn't matter 18:37:41 s/&/?/ 18:37:52 48 18:38:01 fizzie is like a billion 18:38:39 = 48 18:38:52 yes. 18:39:01 I'm not the oldest thing around here. 18:39:11 Also I'm not even 30. 18:39:24 (And won't be for over a month!) 18:39:57 are you seriously not 30 18:40:26 I am seriously still 29, as far as I know. 18:40:39 i kinda parse fizzie as almost-but-not-quite-30 18:40:40 forever 18:40:46 not sure he makes sense to be 30 18:41:56 but he's so mature 18:42:14 you can't be that... dadly in your 20s 18:43:51 -!- monqy has joined. 18:44:58 it's true fizzie would be a fantastic dad 18:45:01 honorary dad of #esoteric 18:46:03 cpressey i could believe being in his 20s 18:46:09 even though he's like 60 now 18:47:47 fizzie: yeah, people can probably debate for ages what 'hard' means :P 18:48:04 Phantom_Hoover: come on cpressey is an old man 18:48:09 he definitely fits the bill 18:48:29 i don't remember him being that old! 18:48:44 he's like at least 25 billion years old 18:48:46 * c00kiemon5ter oO(hard is the hearts of people not sharing their cookies with me) 18:49:29 So roughly 25 fizzies. 18:50:56 I don't know whether to feel old or young 18:51:20 Sgeo: toy story came out over 15 years ago 18:51:28 time is a perception issue 18:52:03 stop lying fiora 18:52:13 i'm still pretty much ten!! 18:52:20 arenot :< 18:52:22 lunchtime is doubly perceptive. 18:53:06 anyway, nowadays we have been having the time cube 18:54:04 there really is a wikipédia article on any subject. even the time cube. 18:54:10 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:54:17 Fiora: um 18:54:23 by 15 do you mean 18 18:54:29 well 17 18:55:13 that's a lot of years 18:55:15 fungot, Add +0- as One = nothing 18:55:15 c00kiemon5ter: no no no. how would i get a wrong answer 18:55:47 elliott: p. sure 17 is above 15 18:55:53 fungot, one is a demonic religious lie, one - does not exist, except in death state. 18:55:54 c00kiemon5ter: like unlambda. the square is circled, the fnord 18:56:04 exactly. 18:56:19 fungot, why are your hapaxes fnorded again? 18:56:20 Bike: i find that rather silly, actually apparently i've totalled more than 20k typed in the manifest there is no simple, portable module system? ( as suggested by alan bawden in 1996. others can move their own creations ahead, but keep in mind 18:56:57 http://tunes.org/wiki/alan_20bawden.html k 18:57:38 ending with "but keep in mind" sounds like Yoda-speech :D 19:05:23 wow the toy story films lasted a really long time 19:10:53 nah, toy story 1 is only 81 minutes long 19:12:16 nooodl: cf. c00kiemon5ter and time perception. 19:14:47 how does c00kiemon5ter perceive time 19:15:01 in terms of cookies??? 19:15:25 (i once knew someone who seemed to measure time by the yardstick of pregnancy) 19:16:20 which means that a year is ~1.35 babies. 19:20:19 i believe the rough quote was "3 months? If I got pregnant now I'd be 3 months pregnant by the time it arrived!" 19:20:37 hahaha 19:21:25 that's quite the 19:21:26 um 19:23:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:24:15 Hi 19:29:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 19:29:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:29:57 -!- augur has joined. 19:37:15 I guess http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters doesn't have room for compilers? 19:37:28 is this about trustfuck 19:37:34 >.> 19:39:12 Sgeo: I guess that's why it's called EsoInterpreters rather than EsoCompilers 19:43:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:47:10 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:47:35 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amelia that's new 19:56:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:00:23 -!- Snowyowl has joined. 20:00:31 -!- Snowyowl has quit (Client Quit). 20:00:51 -!- Snowyowl has joined. 20:12:49 AnotherTest: that's short, too. 20:14:53 Is there any decent software for drawing 2D "ascii art", that could be used to write Befunge source code? 20:15:07 I grow weary of Notepad. 20:18:39 jave is good. I wonder if it is still in active development... 20:19:21 nothing new since 2010, but still: http://www.jave.de/ 20:20:01 http://www.coinheist.com/rubik/a_regular_crossword/ [...] <-- looks fun 20:20:14 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:20:24 * oerjan wioll haven imported into paint program 20:20:41 i solved a regular crossword in february 20:20:46 it was really great 20:20:50 what's a wioll haven? 20:21:03 http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~param/quotes/guide.html 20:21:10 see dr streetmentioner's famous grammar 20:23:10 thanks. maintenant j'aurai avoir eu compris. 20:23:27 (got to love those French verbs. they're like lego blocks, but with more exceptions!) 20:24:34 i'll have had understood. english verbs are lego blocky too! 20:24:52 maybe in a more boring way, though 20:25:00 less pretty to pronounce 20:25:05 yeah 20:25:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:25:35 "been" sounds so awful. c'mon, english 20:25:45 your exceptions are less interesting and of a lower quality :p 20:27:19 imo the best part of english verbs is that a good amount of them are conjugated in a completely different way from the rest 20:27:41 i ran back to france but they didn't want me 20:33:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:34:17 -!- itsy has joined. 20:34:32 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:35:37 -!- itsy has quit (Client Quit). 20:37:12 well the french ones are kinda mine technically 20:37:25 the english language definitely isn't 20:37:49 -!- augur has joined. 20:37:59 what 20:38:26 -!- itsy has joined. 20:38:58 boily mentioned "[my] exceptions" when i talked about english verb conjugations, but actually closer to french than to english (i'm belgiumian) 20:39:12 *but i'm actually closer to 20:39:24 oh. i don't know anything about belgian 20:39:58 ...such as that it no longer exists, ok 20:41:14 oh yeah the Belgian Language isn't a thing 20:41:32 what i'm actually saying is: half of belgium speaks dutch and the other half speaks french 20:41:44 while i'm from the dutch-speaking part, pretty much everyone is expected to know french 20:41:50 right 20:42:07 are the francophones expected to know dutch? 20:43:07 not really. their secondary schools usually teach either english or dutch, students get to choose 20:43:18 -!- ogrom has joined. 20:43:21 and pretty much nobody picks dutch because english is Super Cool 20:43:41 us dutch-speaking belgians really like complaining about all the effort we put into learning our neighbours' language while we don't get anything in return! 20:44:07 gosh 20:44:38 -!- Snowyowl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:44:39 historically, french was the language of the elite in belgium, too. only the plebeians spoke dutch 20:45:10 there were political parties called "taalpartijen" (language parties) that just rebelled against the oppression of dutch speakers! 20:45:26 eventually dutch became a Real Official Language 20:45:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:45:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 20:45:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:47:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:48:18 speaking of: dutch is a really horrible language when it comes to verbs. (it's a lot like german) 20:48:31 -!- itsy has changed nick to impomatic. 20:48:32 the infamous V2 alignment. 20:48:42 ask elliott about Ziet!!! 20:49:09 oh yes the V2 alignment is pretty great too 20:49:21 (is dutch the only language that does anything like it?) 20:49:41 err and german :| 20:50:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:50:42 german! 20:50:58 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 20:51:02 wow turns out V2 word order is crazy 20:52:30 what is V2 alignment? that thing of putting subordinate verbs usually last? 20:52:52 that's VF word order 20:52:55 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:53:03 wat 20:53:10 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:53:15 V2 alignment is where the verb of the main clause is always in the second place 20:53:22 ah 20:53:29 what's the problem with that? 20:53:33 "the kids / PLAYED / in the garden / today" 20:53:39 "in the garden / PLAYED / the kids / today" 20:53:42 oh right. norwegian has that too, but not the subordinate last placement 20:53:42 etc 20:53:48 “Dit boek las ik gesteren”. 20:53:54 * boily shudders in abject terror 20:54:10 -!- carado has joined. 20:54:33 it's common to hear native dutch speakers say stuff like "this book read i yesterday" when speaking "dunglish" 20:54:40 so it doesn't sound weird to me. well a _bit_, we don't switch objects first that often. 20:54:57 or wait 20:55:13 may i suggest a better name than "dunglish" 20:55:14 "Denne boka leste jeg i går." yep perfectly normal. 20:55:23 nooodl: that's strange 20:55:24 like, anything 20:55:42 do dutch dub movies and tv shows? 20:55:53 nooodl: so basically it's probably all germanic languages _except_ english >:) 20:55:55 myname: luckily, no, not often 20:56:09 only stuff like nickolodeon cartoons 20:56:16 otherwise we prefer subtitles 20:56:21 «J'ai lu ce livre hier.» "He leído este libro ayer." 20:56:25 the french, though... 20:56:28 nooodl: i had a discussion about germany being a rare exception in dubbing everything 20:56:33 never realized it before 20:56:45 dubbing policy is completely different in France than here. 20:56:55 they even subtitle movies from Québec! 20:56:56 nontheless, i'd never say something like "the book read i yesterday" 20:57:25 would you if you were trying to imitate Yoda 20:57:31 nooodl: shouldn't you be better in english in this case? 20:57:52 norwegian has this little subtlety in subordinate clauses that you can often detect good, but not perfect non-native speakers with: certain adverbs suddenly come before the verb instead of after. but the verb still comes before lot of stuff. 20:58:30 myname: young people are generally pretty good at english 20:58:41 "Jeg har ikke lest den boka" - i haven't read that book. "Jeg sa at jeg ikke har lest den boka." - i said that i haven't read that book. 20:58:42 okay 20:59:18 back in the day there was a lot less influence from english media so old people still say adorable things like that 21:00:09 oerjan: we have the same thing, but I didn't realize it was a subtlety 21:00:13 nooodl: i see, i can think of germans doing that, too 21:00:22 boily: haha, we've actually done something similar 21:00:35 but i think germans are more known for that become/get issue 21:00:51 until like 2005-ish, tv shows and movies in "dutch dutch" (dutch from the netherlands) got subtitled 21:01:10 and it was controversial. some dutch people felt we were poking fun at them for their "weird" accent 21:01:17 so these days they're gone :') 21:03:36 oerjan: that sounds awful 21:05:15 hello guys 21:06:28 nooodl: on Monday nights, there's this thing called Douteux: http://douteux.org/ 21:06:50 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:07:04 we get to see weird and strange and wtfing extracts from various excerpts and random stuff. 21:07:33 when we stumble on something from België, we often have multiple subtiles in both Dutch and French, with a voiceover in english. 21:07:39 the end-effect is surprising. 21:07:47 Arc_Koen: bonsoir! 21:07:54 haha yes 21:08:02 cinemas here tend to be bilingual too 21:08:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:08:27 salut boily 21:08:29 so you're watching an english movie with dutch subtitles and french subtitles... 21:08:34 I'm just coming back from the cinema 21:08:58 the director told us to cancel one of the two films because they had (AGAIN) heating problems 21:09:16 well the spectators weren't happy about it 21:09:37 you work at a cinema? 21:09:44 we had that one guy explaining to us how he had just walked 20 minutes in the snow, despite his (very) old age, to see that movie 21:09:48 well, I volunteer, mostly 21:09:52 ah 21:09:58 that sounds pretty cool 21:10:03 sometimes they call me for weekends and I get paid 21:10:27 so the director told him he could not have spectators watch a film in the cold 21:10:36 and the guy "I SURVIVED THE WAR I DON'T CARE IF IT'S COLD" 21:10:51 it is cool :) 21:11:03 especially since the new projectionist is a very pretty girl 21:11:45 it's comforting to hear it's snowing over there too (what the HELL is that about) 21:12:03 yeah well 21:12:08 Clinical strength head&shoulders smells bad 21:12:15 I usually go to the cinema with my bike 21:12:44 and I usually don't mind biking in the snow 21:12:58 but I'm stuck with crutches 21:13:04 so I borrowed my parents' car 21:13:17 this was my first time alone in a car AND THERE WAS THAT FREAKY SNOW EVERYWHERE 21:13:20 that was horrible 21:14:08 snow is not freaky, it loves you, hugs you, and wants you to be their forever. 21:14:21 hm. ok. well, snow can be a little bit freaky. 21:15:04 one of the cars in front of me stopped in a rising road 21:15:15 (is that how you call that? a route going up) 21:15:23 so I stopped too. 21:15:32 then the car drove away 21:15:36 AND I WAS STUCK 21:15:57 I thought I was doing something wrong, but after a while it was clear it was the snow 21:16:25 and because of me the car behind me got stuck too 21:16:39 after a while I managed to drive again but they didn't :) 21:19:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:19:21 i should fill some esointerpreters gap 21:20:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:21:56 unefunge is just befunge without ^ v and |? 21:22:11 oh, and g and p commands having one less argument 21:22:44 it doesn't seem to be described anywhere on the internet, at the moment... 21:22:55 http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html 21:23:20 ooh unefunge is based on Funge-98 not Funge-93 21:25:48 that makes it a lot tougher to implement... 21:25:58 why that? 21:26:14 because funge-98 is a lot tougher than funge-93 21:26:20 nooodl, at the same time, it's just a tape 21:26:38 yes but you have to deal with a lot of funge-98's extra stuff 21:26:45 Taneb: yeah, but a tape with a crazy Lahey space 21:26:47 True 21:26:51 And True 21:26:52 lahey space isn't really that crazy 21:27:02 well not in 1D it isn't 21:27:29 and i was planning to write it in golfscript... the longer that gets the more unwritable it gets, too 21:27:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:29:14 what's the problem with lahey space? 21:31:43 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:36:14 myname: it's not quite a torus that's what 21:36:29 so? 21:36:54 so, I just wanted to make a joke, because in one dimension, it's exactly the same as a torus 21:36:58 if direction = right and cell = last: newcell = first 21:37:01 what's the rules for integrating a function composition? in this case int from 0 to N of g(f(x)) dx, where g(x) = ln x and f(x) = x + 1. 21:37:14 messy. but when f is linear it's easy. 21:37:57 (basically you try substituting what's inside, but in the general case it's just luck whether that makes it easier or not.) 21:38:48 -!- augur has joined. 21:38:53 oerjan: ok ok but what formula do I type in my calculator?? 21:39:18 i have no idea 21:40:12 presumably there's some syntax for integrating a function 21:40:38 fnInt(! 21:42:54 i'm glad wolfram alpha forces me to log into it with facebook these days. 21:43:50 what 21:43:54 [insert logarithm joke here] 21:44:23 afaiu the kind of integration you can do without massive theory is essentially just running differentiation backwards and hoping the pieces fit together, which they'll do if it's a school test. hth. 21:44:54 oh sweet 21:44:56 -!- Bike has joined. 21:45:18 so it's exactly the same method as the one we used to solve a polynom in prepschool 21:45:35 and the massive theory gives you the added option of "we can prove this integral has no expression in the functions you know." 21:45:45 haha 21:46:23 "massive theory" sounds like a great band name... but it probably just reminds me of "massive attack" 21:46:37 which also makes it a worse band name 21:47:07 imagine massive attack doing a cover of the big bang theory soundtrack 21:47:36 oerjan: why is integration terrible 21:47:40 derivatives are pretty nice 21:47:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risch_algorithm 21:47:50 but then there's integration and it's all whoah i cant let this be easy 4 u lol 21:47:56 gonna shit all in your symmetry 21:48:08 well i've read the saying "differentiation is a handcraft, integration is an art" 21:48:34 more like an fart :--/ 21:48:47 i like half-integration 21:48:53 i forget how impossible it is, probably p. impossible 21:49:30 istr reading even mathematica doesn't implement the full risch algorithm. 21:49:40 although maybe they've done that later 21:49:42 well do you ever need it 21:50:08 how often do you want to integrate inverse sine of a polynomial over double exponentiation of inversion 21:50:36 (oerjan: I don't know what you did to my brain, but everyday you use new four~five letter acronyms, and everyday I understand them) 21:50:36 of course mathematica doesn't restrict the answer to elementary functions, which means it cannot use just the Risch algorithm anyhow. 21:50:37 i just looked up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_integrals_of_rational_functions and i feel like vomiting now 21:50:54 Arc_Koen: yay! 21:51:01 let me tell you about secant cubed 21:51:21 i can't imagine people using these formulae 21:51:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_of_secant_cubed i love that there's a fucking article for this though 21:52:14 you brought back repressed memories of CÉGEP. I do not thank you. 21:52:43 "classes élémentaires aux grandes écoles préparatoires"? 21:52:54 it sounds like you got the right words but in the wrong order 21:53:10 elliott: on the plus side, _numerical_ integration is easier than numerical differentiation 21:53:59 oh god the housemate and his visitor came _back_ again 21:54:13 is the visitor a female 21:54:36 Arc_Koen: Collège d'Enseignement Général Et Professionnel. it goes after high school and before university. 21:54:57 so the second e was a decoy 21:55:07 nope. i fear they'll be doing gaming 21:55:22 or maybe movie watching 21:55:23 a very clever decoy to lead exchange students astray. 21:55:24 oerjan: but automatic differentiation is easier still. :( 21:55:30 hi elliott 21:55:35 hellooooooerjan 21:55:52 Arc_Koen: i'm pretty sure i've used "istr" many times. 21:56:13 shachaf: you need to mash the «o» and «e» key really fast together to produce œrjan. 21:56:18 now that you mention it istr so, yes 21:56:21 today i used istr and i think i picked it up here... 21:57:42 heegan mcallister 21:57:45 what's with all this rain 21:57:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:58:34 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:58:36 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:00:51 hi shachaf 22:00:54 where does it rain 22:35:23 new york 22:35:39 Maybe not anymore. 22:36:27 I should go do something interview related 22:36:29 it's still snowing here 22:36:37 Sgeo: sleep helps 22:36:57 Arc_Koen, I do need to eat dinner 22:37:05 that helps too 22:42:10 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 22:46:58 -!- nooga has joined. 22:47:50 wow i made a turing machine that implements H9+ 22:47:57 and it's a little over 9000 states 22:47:58 :( 22:48:29 `learn bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object. 22:48:37 i think you conflagrated another word there 22:48:57 nooodl: not Q? 22:49:02 ooh is that where you make a portmanteau and then light it on fire 22:49:32 http://bpaste.net/show/J1D5SWaK8h4avDKJr3Mq/ -- works for http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html 22:49:33 could be. 22:49:47 oerjan: at first i thought "ugh Q is going to be hard" but now that i think about it it should be fun 22:50:28 nooodl: wait, 9000 states? 22:50:31 anyway, the only reason i wrote this is: prove that a UTM can execute a H9+ program (read: copy one of two strings based on some input symbols) 22:50:45 9000 states indeed 22:51:03 > length "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. take one down, pass it around, 99 bottles of beer on the wall!" * 100 22:51:05 11400 22:51:22 oh it has no spaces 22:51:22 i guess that _is_ shorter than just writing it directly :P 22:51:32 so it's a bit shorter 22:51:53 wait, you _did_ just insert the whole text? :P 22:51:57 yes 22:52:11 how else did you expect it to become 9000 states big :o 22:52:24 i was wondering if it was plausible without it 22:52:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:53:04 anyway, removing the spaces is just an annoying thing i had to do because this javascript turing machine simulator doesn't differentiate between an "ascii space" symbol and blank symbol 22:53:41 i kinda want to add this to the http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters chain, behind "UTM" 22:54:13 aha 22:54:34 wait you mean i started this. 22:55:40 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:56:04 hmm? started what 22:56:45 i just added that chain yesterday :P 22:56:49 *chain table 22:56:50 oh yeah 22:56:53 someone linked it in here today 22:57:17 i was gonna extend it by implenting unefunge in something, but it felt like a lot of work 22:57:21 so i did this instead! 22:57:58 yeah as a general rule the chains stop because the things on the left are too hard to implement, and the things on the right are too hard to implement anything with :) 22:58:12 i don't know if i should append this to the chain 22:59:09 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:59:10 also an idea: there's been basic -> brainfuck converters or something, haven't there? that might be a way to insert something between brainfuck and bub 22:59:22 hm that Bub -> UTM link is broken, it's one of Nthern's ones. 22:59:39 nooodl: well we only count esolangs in that table 23:00:02 oh. dang 23:00:22 -!- nooga has joined. 23:00:36 so, implementing anything as a turing machine isn't an option 23:00:45 because there isn't an "UTM" row? 23:00:51 um yes 23:00:58 we consider UTM's close enough. 23:01:10 however i assume it's just using his Bub converter on the BF -> UTM conversion 23:01:30 which means it's the same as the whirl ones, which have strikethroughs 23:02:01 nooodl: a more serious problem is that what's implemented is _a_ universal turing machine, not all turing machines directly. 23:02:43 which should, admittedly be just a matter of inserting an extra step, by the definition of universal turing machine. 23:03:45 maybe "UTM" shouldn't be on this page at all 23:03:51 perhaps. 23:03:53 because it's not really a language 23:03:59 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 23:05:06 a flogscript implementation of unefunge is "really easy" but it'd just take some time. writing flogscript is annoying as hell 23:05:22 solution: get zzo38 to do it 23:05:38 brilliant! 23:07:25 so far the only cycle is the Bub -> Brainfuck one, which basically exists because the languages are nearly trivially equivalent and brainfuck has a self-interpreter. 23:09:24 another idea i just had was if there were a fueue interpretation in unlambda, then that would give a longer path from intercal. 23:09:56 unlambda isn't hard to write 23:09:59 it's just a pain to read or eit 23:10:01 *edit 23:10:15 -!- augur has joined. 23:10:32 most write-only language I know 23:10:36 heh 23:11:41 oh hm unlambda isn't good at handling bytes. 23:13:06 oh i forgot to add the Emmental -> Underload one... 23:13:12 indeed, although you can get around it using ASCII tables 23:13:40 you need those for I/O anyway. 23:13:41 does fueue deal with ascii codes? 23:13:45 yes 23:14:07 something like underload in unlambda wouldn't need an ASCII table, because you can treat characters as opaque values in unlambda 23:14:27 indeed. i've been considering underload in unlambda before. 23:14:51 I'm not sure that unlambda programs are so interesting 23:14:54 programming /techniques/ are 23:15:08 but given that you can't read them, there's not a lot of benefit to them existing 23:15:11 except to prove a point 23:15:40 * Sgeo renames Trustfuck to Braintrust 23:15:42 i hear unlambda is a lot like lazy k 23:16:00 Sgeo: REFLECTIONS ON FUCKING FUCK, I SAID 23:16:22 and there's kind of a scheme -> lazy k converter, apparently 23:16:37 there's a scheme -> unlambda too 23:16:43 also "kind of" 23:17:29 nice 23:17:37 (is that what ais523 meant by unlambda being "easy to write") 23:17:53 nooodl: yeah, it's easy to compile into 23:18:01 even by hand, as long as you don't make typos 23:18:09 (because it's unreadable, if you do make a typo, you're unlikely to ever find it) 23:18:16 It's also easy to compile from! 23:18:21 Therefore readable. Right? 23:20:45 The combinatory representation, (S (K (S I)) (S (K K) I)) is much longer than the representation as a lambda term, λx.λy.(y x). This is typical. In general, the T[ ] construction may expand a lambda term of length n to a combinatorial term of length Θ(3n)[citation needed]. 23:21:03 (whoops, that's Theta(3^n)) 23:21:12 anyway who wrote this, ugh 23:21:48 do lambda terms even have a "length" 23:23:03 you could define a half-reasonable one, i guess, or just use textual length 23:23:45 nooodl: if you're going _really_ deep, there's a way to do it linearly instead 23:24:18 or nearly so. 23:25:28 (pass the arguments as a list, and refer them by indexing the list with the deBruijn index) 23:26:59 nooodl: any half-reasonable one will be the same when you ignore constant factors, as theta does. 23:27:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:28:25 of course much of the design of my unlambda self-interpreter was how to factor functions into bits that _didn't_ combinatorially blow up. 23:29:05 ^list 23:29:05 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 23:29:23 Still 879 23:30:47 ​^list is for MSPA 23:32:11 Well, please arrange for an olist update. 23:33:09 `echo bin/slist 23:33:10 bin/slist 23:33:17 `cat bin/slist 23:33:18 echo Sgeo is a jobby 23:33:25 I should fix that 23:33:37 ? 23:33:47 Who vandaliszed the liszt? 23:33:56 Phantom_Hoover, a while ago, iir` 23:33:58 iirc 23:33:59 `url 23:34:02 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:34:35 you can't prove nothin' 23:35:12 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:36:04 yes I can http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/16641639a4cf 23:36:39 I don't know how to revert :( 23:36:51 `rv 2243 23:36:53 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rv: not found 23:36:58 `revert 2243 23:37:02 Done. 23:37:08 that reverts the entire hackego state. 23:37:27 oops 23:37:34 `revert 2416 23:37:37 Sgeo, it was someone impersonating me 23:37:38 Done. 23:37:38 undo undoes a single commit. 23:37:41 but doesn't always work. 23:37:43 anyone could have done it! 23:37:59 probably it was aloril 23:38:08 he's had it in for me since day 1 23:40:02 aloril, with assistance... from shachaf 23:41:27 `undo 2243 23:41:33 patching file slist \ Hunk #1 FAILED at 1. \ 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file slist.rej 23:41:40 `slist 23:41:42 Sgeo is a jobby 23:42:18 `echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist 23:42:20 ​"echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist 23:42:33 `run echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot" > bin/slist 23:42:37 No output. 23:43:38 Sgeo: We don't do lists that way anymore... 23:43:59 `run cp bin/{empty,s}list 23:44:02 `echo `echo 23:44:04 No output. 23:44:05 ​`echo 23:44:18 `run for n in Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot; do echo $n >> bin/slist; done 23:44:21 `echo `echo test 23:44:22 No output. 23:44:24 ​`echo test 23:47:40 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:59:42 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 2013-03-13: 00:02:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:02:59 -!- augur has joined. 00:06:06 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:07:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:10:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:10:56 null (_:_) = False 00:11:08 (_:_) looks like a butt 00:13:58 Um. Wikipedia's down. 00:14:23 er, thought it was. Weird. 00:14:35 `slist 00:14:37 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 00:15:51 again? 00:19:13 yes 00:19:16 lot of updates today 00:19:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:21:51 Fiora, no 00:37:07 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:43:22 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 00:46:20 -!- augur has joined. 00:49:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:52:09 FreeFull: yup 00:52:23 it has been observed 00:57:32 * Sgeo wonders if kmc has yet been subjected to my horrible Haskell pun 00:58:57 do it 00:59:19 What did Goldilocks say when she say Maybe (b -> Either a b)? 00:59:27 *saw 01:02:56 -_- 01:03:04 It's Just Right! 01:03:16 yep 01:24:02 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:29:59 -!- WeThePeople has joined. 01:37:46 Sgeo: i'm sure i've heard that a long time ago, although i cannot recall if you were the one who told it. 01:42:12 Probably 01:42:38 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/index.php?title=Humor/Goldilocks&action=history 01:43:04 -!- augur has joined. 01:43:57 good enough for me 01:45:22 is there seriously a humor section 01:47:08 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:47:27 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:48:26 also why is return called return, it doesn't seem remotely like any return i've heard of even in IO do 01:49:54 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:50:08 bad decisions 01:51:33 i guess, on occasion, when placed at the end of a function, it has a slightly analogous role. 01:51:58 hardly :/ 02:02:03 -!- madbr has joined. 02:03:14 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:03:20 yeah it is one of the most confusing names you could pick 02:03:59 there isn't necessarily a great alternative, but there are alternatives which don't come with misleading existing meaning 02:05:53 i see "unit" a lot or like at all i guess 02:06:03 one thing I learned from Haskell is that people will complain if you use crazy math words like monad, but they'll also complain if you use familiar words in a slightly different way 02:06:08 you can't win 02:06:14 also another dumb haskell question 02:06:23 what's wrong with «dumbTest x = do { y <- assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)]; z <- 10 + y; z }», it says I'm asking for Num (Maybe a) 02:06:33 what's assocValue 02:06:41 (Eq key) => key -> [(key,value)] -> Maybe value 02:06:45 anyway the problem is «z <- 10 + y» i think 02:06:55 maybe you wanted «let z = 10 + y» 02:07:00 Also the z right after it 02:07:09 return z 02:07:16 right, that should become «return z» but then it's not necessary at all 02:07:27 rather you would write do { y <- assocValue ...; return (10 + y) } 02:07:55 hm, so i guess <- doesn't do what i thought it did 02:07:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:07:57 Bike: in «x <- e», e :: M a, and x :: a 02:08:09 because it's sugar for «e >>= (\x -> ...)» 02:08:17 and (>>=) :: M a -> (a -> M b) -> M b 02:08:56 ok, i think i see. 02:09:07 so it wants «10 + y» to be Maybe something 02:09:14 right 02:11:40 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:14:24 so i can write it without do as «dumbTest x = (assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)]) >>= (return . (+ 10))». sensible enough 02:14:55 yeah 02:14:57 but additionally 02:15:21 «e >>= (return . f)» is equivalent to «fmap f e» 02:15:32 ooh, i tried fmap earlier but it barfed 02:15:36 or «f <$> e» if you prefer the infix operators from Control.Applicative 02:15:46 nope :D 02:15:51 Bike: you have way extraneous parens there 02:15:53 i would still use return on the last line of a do, sometimes, depending on what makes it most readable 02:16:01 you can elim the ones around the assocValue expression without even knowing relative precedences 02:16:03 elliott: i am aware 02:16:07 by the function application binds tightest (modulo record syntax) rule 02:16:08 i would keep the others 02:16:27 i would eliminate the other parens by not doing >>= return . :p 02:16:58 dumbTest x = fmap (+ 10) (assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)]) 02:17:02 it's like i really know haskell 02:23:17 dumbTest x = (+ 10) <$> assocValue x [(4,5),(7,8)] -- death to parens 02:36:30 -!- augur has joined. 02:36:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:45:05 -!- augur has joined. 02:50:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:54:40 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 02:54:52 anyone know how to include graphics in reddit comments? 02:55:52 i think you can only include graphics that have been enabled by the subreddit moderators 02:56:49 (the ones i've seen have always been choices from a list of pictures) 03:00:30 elliott: (+ 10) has parens hth 03:01:06 oerjan: if only addition was infix. 03:01:31 ... 03:01:46 > subtract . negate 10 $ 42 03:01:48 Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a)) 03:01:48 arising from the ambiguity chec... 03:01:52 wat 03:02:10 :t subtract . negate 10 03:02:13 (Functor f, Num (f a), Num a) => f (a -> a) 03:02:25 * oerjan blinks 03:02:33 very nice 03:02:35 :t subtract 03:02:37 Num a => a -> a -> a 03:02:54 oh hm 03:02:58 it's (Num b, Num (a -> b)) => a -> b -> b locally, clearly this is what you meant 03:03:12 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 03:03:13 > subtract `id` negate 10 $ 42 03:03:15 52 03:03:24 there you go, no parentheses needed 03:03:30 good caleskell there too 03:03:31 mixfix clearly forms a monoid. 03:03:56 Bike: clearly. 03:07:24 radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*, good filename 03:11:45 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 03:11:56 oerjan, it works by each subreddit customizing the CSS 03:12:04 I should be sleeping 12 minutes ago 03:12:07 Interview etc. etc. 03:12:19 Except I can't stop thinking about OI 03:12:48 And before elliott screams that OI doesn't work, I'd love to really understand what it is exactly that doesn't work. 03:12:59 i dont scream 03:13:01 oh dear. starting to think about abstract things just before bed? _bad_ move. 03:13:03 usually anyway 03:13:53 He just stares disapprovingly, communicating the information in subtle microsaccades. 03:14:41 @wn microsaccade 03:14:41 No match for "microsaccade". 03:14:46 @wn saccade 03:14:47 *** "saccade" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 03:14:47 saccade 03:14:47 n 1: a rapid, jerky movement of the eyes between positions of 03:14:47 rest 03:14:47 2: an abrupt spasmodic movement [syn: {jerk}, {jerking}, {jolt}, 03:14:49 {saccade}] 03:15:18 so, being a jerk about it? 03:15:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsaccade 03:15:26 but, sure. 03:18:15 Sgeo: i was going to tell you you haven't updated the language list for your rename. however it is not on there at all. 03:18:48 ty 03:20:32 So many languages that begin with brain :( 03:20:57 Also it's less googleable now 03:21:00 meh 03:21:09 sgeo's new language, mindshit 03:21:45 -!- impomatic has left. 03:30:08 -!- WeThePeople has joined. 03:32:14 WeThePeop. WeThePope 03:32:54 there may, or may not, be a pope. 03:33:12 most likely there isn't. 03:33:47 -!- augur has joined. 03:34:06 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:34:15 -!- augur has joined. 03:34:29 oh, they're still 'claving 03:52:55 'The tradition dates back to 1268, when after nearly three years of deliberation the cardinals had still not agreed on a new pope, prompting the people of Rome to hurry things up by locking them up and cutting their rations.' 03:53:38 papal politics are the best 03:55:23 "Gregory's election came as a complete surprise to him, partially because it happened while he was engaged in the Ninth Crusade at Acre with King Edward I of England in Israel." 03:55:42 hahaha 03:56:30 "As a result of the length of the election, during which three of the twenty cardinal-electors died and one resigned," 03:57:17 is there any risk of the cardinals actually starving to death during the conclave 03:57:20 or are they given enough to live on? 03:57:38 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 03:57:44 they get rations 03:57:44 Nowadays they are given enough to survive 03:57:51 but after a time it goes down to just bread and water iirc 03:57:55 so not great 03:58:30 incentive! 03:58:40 well it _is_ lent, anyhow. 03:58:51 oerjan: we'll find out pretty quickly when there is a pope 03:58:59 unless they screw up the smoke again like in the sixties 03:59:08 they did? 03:59:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGBHfXPqbgI 04:06:56 oerjan: yeah, it was when they stopped using sealed ballots 04:07:19 they previously used damp straw to make the smoke black 04:07:39 but it turned out that the sealing wax was a vital component in the reaction as well 04:07:54 so the first smoke was gray, much to everyone's confusion 04:08:28 after that they started using chemicals to color the smoke 04:09:11 snerk. 04:12:43 @wn snerk 04:12:43 No match for "snerk". 04:12:50 hello 04:12:59 Bike: hi 04:13:10 -!- monqy has joined. 04:13:56 what's shakin' 04:14:15 what is this slang 04:14:37 hello 04:15:08 hi 04:16:22 ok let's see this... trying to make a replacement for chip8, so I'm making a RISC cpu ripoff 04:18:06 all instructions can take either format 1 (reg, reg, reg), or format 2 (reg, reg, immediate) 04:18:11 math: add/sub/mul/cmp/cmu 04:18:12 logic: and/or/xor/shl/shr/sar 04:18:12 mem: ldr/str 04:18:12 jump: jez/jnz/sys 04:18:42 why not use mmix? 04:18:53 mmix? 04:18:57 from the makers of chip8 come this new architecture with all your favorite characters! 04:19:04 mmix is knuth's thing 04:20:27 trying to minimize opcodes 04:21:19 going for 32 bits too 04:22:01 MMIX is intended to be a hypothetical fully-functional assembly language 04:22:09 and instruction set 04:22:16 it has virtual memory, floating point, etc. 04:22:23 predictive branching even 04:22:39 don't care about virtual memory 04:22:48 though floating point could be nice 04:23:01 hm, didn't know it had branch prediction 04:23:12 wonder if the early volumes are ever coming out again -_- 04:24:42 it will also need a calling convention... I'll probably just rip off ARM's convention for that 04:24:54 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:25:03 Bike: UNLIKELY 04:25:30 :( 04:26:03 apparently someone's implemented MMIX in verilog; neat 04:26:12 "arguments in registers #,#,#,# stack pointer in register # return address in register # you can overwrite registers #### but you have to save registers ####" 04:27:42 I guess I also need a drawing function, some input reading function, a buffer flip/vsync function, and something to play sfx/music 04:29:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:36:36 * coppro downloads mmixware to tablet 04:42:33 hmm, I could make pixel data just like other data 04:43:02 but then I'd probably need a byte load/store function (and byte addressing instead of word) 04:44:21 only 256 color, huh 04:44:46 yeah 256 color is fun 04:44:53 though it sucks for transparency 04:44:56 are you designing a small CPU for writing demos? 04:45:19 kmc : trying to come up with something retarded simple yet useful to replace chip8 04:45:25 for games actually 04:47:16 pros for 256: retro chic, palette effects are fun, can write 4 pixels at once 04:47:41 cons: have to draw everything with the same palette, transparencies and lighting effects don't work too well 04:47:58 also sucks for art that isn't drawn 04:49:25 definitely ups the difficulty of deving for the platform too 04:49:59 also makes hardware accelerated emulation of gfx hard 04:51:04 you can switch palette on every scanline! 04:51:21 I'm not sure I'm going to allow HDMA effects 04:52:02 is that what it's called 04:52:12 well, hdma is the SNES version 04:52:24 horizontal blank dma or something 04:53:09 you could call it copper effects too (amiga chip that does the same stuff) 05:03:14 i know some microcomputers only run program code in the blanking intervals 05:03:20 but I guess game consoles never worked that way 05:03:49 costs a lot of cpu cycles 05:04:08 I guess the 2600 sorta worked that way 05:04:26 because the cpu had to update the gfx registers on each scanline 05:04:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:05:10 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:08:17 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 05:16:32 the Galaksija only runs the user program during the blank intervals 05:17:24 while scanning the visible region, it runs a kind of dummy program and uses the Z80's DRAM refresh counter to index the character buffer 05:17:55 is the Galaksija like the 80s version of a Galaxy Note 05:18:07 the bytes of the dummy program also happen to make up string constants used by the BASIC interpreter 05:18:15 Bike: yes and from yugoslavia 05:18:27 excellent 05:18:43 "What country is this computer from?" "It... no longer exists." 05:20:27 Good sales pitch if I ever heard one. 05:25:18 -!- carado_ has joined. 05:26:28 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:27:24 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:46:52 yay this fits in one switch/case 05:46:53 http://pastebin.com/qkVskLAa 05:49:57 hm, mul discards the high half of the result? 05:50:03 like in c++ 05:50:37 also why is the halt instruction named 'vbl' 05:50:46 vblank 05:50:56 wait 1/60th of a second :D 05:51:19 (and let the rest of the machine read the picture to display from memory) 05:52:02 ok 05:58:26 it would probably just read the graphics in 320x200x32bit off some memory location every frame 05:58:46 I think this is fast enough just to draw the frame buffer over on each frame 06:00:46 -!- Jafet has joined. 06:01:19 and for controls it could probaby just write the input state at some memory offset just before the vm is run 06:03:45 hmm 06:04:03 but then no palette effects :( 06:04:15 also transparency would be hard :( 06:04:58 -!- oonbotti has joined. 06:05:12 well not had but kinda slow 06:05:44 hmm maybe not even 06:07:05 pixel = ((pixel & 0xfefefe) + (in & 0xfefefe)) >> 1; 06:08:40 would be hard to do clamped colors though :( 06:10:06 still need a way to handle sfx + music too 06:14:41 ooh, I see simd within a register 06:15:04 yeah demoscene kinda trick :D 06:16:56 or pixel = ((((pixel & 0xff00ff) * light) & 0xff00ff00) + (((pixel & 0xff00) * light) & 0xff0000)) >>> 8 06:17:39 hmm I guess real simd would help there 06:18:00 probably a lot XD 06:18:12 for the average you have pavgb which is super fast 06:18:17 for the multiply.... hmmm 06:18:55 unpack to 16-bit then use pmulhrsw? pmulhw I guess if you don't really care about rounding 06:19:03 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:19:09 the best one was on ARM 06:19:13 vqdmulh 06:19:16 interleave+pmaddubsw might be super nice if you need to add two 06:19:24 like pixA*lightA+pixB*lightB 06:19:38 16*16 mul, * 2 keep high word saturare 32768 to 32767 06:19:53 1 cycle throughput 06:19:58 it's mad useful 06:20:47 works on 4 shorts at the same time, doesn't change size or anything 06:21:11 so you can effectively do 4 interpolations at the same time (for sound mixing) 06:23:34 I guess for something like that I guess I might try pmaddwd + packssdw? 06:32:34 yeah perhaps 06:33:13 or maybe use 16bits and have SIMD operations that operate on 1:5:5:5:1:5:5:5 data :D 06:34:51 oh gosh that'd be nutty XD 06:36:02 Doesn't AltiVec do something slightly like that? I mean, it wasn't 1:5:5:5, but it has a RGB "pixel" datatype, the format of which I don't recall, and related operations. 06:36:20 5:6:5 is used sometimes too 06:36:41 I don't recall anything using 4:4:4:4 tho 06:37:16 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 06:37:55 It is a 16-bit RGB pixel format (of which there are 8 in the register), unless I completely misremember. 06:38:27 oh man, worst idea 06:38:32 12 bit rgb 06:38:34 8 16-bit pixels or 4 32-bit pixels, says one page, but does not go into detail. 06:38:55 but with red/green/blue on separate video memory pages 06:39:17 and 4:4:4:4:4:4:4:4 SIMD instructions :D 06:40:16 though that would more or less torpedo pixel drawing stuff like particle effects 06:41:00 or worse even 06:41:05 YUV 06:41:20 with 4 bits per component and 2:1 undersampling on U and V 06:41:39 so it's something like VYUYVYUY on each 32 bit word :D 06:45:28 I think I can guess what altivec does.. something like expand the 1:5:5:5 pixels to 8:8:8:8 06:46:27 madbr: That 12 bit RGB thing sounds suspiciously like something VGA would do. 06:46:54 nah 06:47:26 more of a crazy amiga thing imho :D 06:47:54 they had... I think it was a 6 bit format 06:47:59 using bit planes ofc 06:48:16 where color 0..15 = set red to 0..15 06:48:23 16..31 = set green to 0..15 06:48:31 32..47 = set blue to 0..15 06:48:43 48..63 = load from palette index 0..15 06:49:32 they even came up with a 8bit version later on (giving roughly 18bit color...) 06:50:18 of course some programs would also HDMA the palette so that it had optimal 16 colors for each scanline 06:52:40 sleep 06:52:41 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 06:53:57 -!- kallisti has joined. 06:53:58 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 06:53:58 -!- kallisti has joined. 06:59:48 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:05:24 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:05:38 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:11:52 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:34:10 HAM (the thing described above) is such a screwy mode indeed. 07:40:38 And the AltiVec 16-bit pixel in fact *is* a 1:5:5:5 format. 07:42:49 There's a vec_packpx to pack a 4+4 (two SIMD registers) 8:8:8:8 pixels into 8 1:5:5:5 pixels by taking the 5 high bits of the R, G and B channels, and the least significant bit of the A channel. 07:49:56 -!- Canaimero-15d3 has joined. 07:51:55 Canaimero-15d3: are you a human, or a spambot? 07:52:02 -!- Canaimero-15d3 has left. 07:52:10 guessing spambot 07:52:22 it turned up, sent me a bunch of random gibberish in a PM, then parted again 07:56:30 I didn't get any spam. :/ 07:56:42 Must be some kind of a "for better folks only" thing. 07:56:45 me neither. 08:11:29 -!- Timsole has joined. 08:11:57 -!- Timsole has quit (Client Quit). 08:21:01 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:34:17 -!- nooga has joined. 08:45:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:49:19 -!- ais523 has quit. 09:06:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 09:23:51 -!- m93 has joined. 09:24:18 -!- m93 has left. 09:29:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:29:43 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 09:31:49 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 09:36:21 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:36:21 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 09:55:58 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:06:51 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:14:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:18:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 10:18:40 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:19:59 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:52:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:04:40 `olist 11:04:48 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 11:34:53 -!- kidanger has joined. 11:40:33 Thgeo 11:46:10 fuck where's my wallet 12:00:32 fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckl' 12:03:36 have you checked your pocket 12:03:39 your hair 12:03:48 your sofa/couch/???, your chair 12:04:02 your trash can, your car, your friend's car 12:04:13 your other pocket 12:04:16 your coat pocket 12:04:19 your jacket pocket 12:04:28 your purse??? 12:04:38 your dufflebag your fannypack 12:04:44 your laundry 12:04:58 i'm running out of ideas man 12:05:28 Your fridge. 12:05:36 I think that's where my father found his wallet once. 12:05:53 hm maybe they're in your pants but not in the pocket part. like you tried to put them in your pants but you kinda missed it 12:06:01 if you missed it in the other direction they could be on your floor 12:06:05 maybe you put it in a drawer 12:06:23 hm, microwave/oven/stove might also be worth checking? you could have confused it with your meal 12:06:58 medicine cabinet, pets, bookshelves, other shelves 12:07:00 It's like this: you use money to buy food, it's a reasonable mistake to think you can cut out the middleman. 12:08:18 http://www.supermegacomics.com/images/361.gif i hear it works out pretty well 12:10:19 Sgeo, have you checked your wallet 12:10:46 maybe it's a wallet from the future that only appears when you need money from it 12:10:59 do you have any time machines lying around, that could explain it 12:11:10 alt. explanation is you dropped it in the time machine and now it's who knows when 12:11:35 dinosaur could have eaten it, butterfly effect and that's why (?????weird thing?????) 12:11:48 that's why his wallet vanished 12:12:00 that is pretty dang weird 12:13:59 -!- myname has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:15:58 are we even sure it was Sgeo's wallet to start with 12:16:24 well he said it's his 12:16:26 could he be lying 12:16:33 are we sure it's even a wallet 12:16:39 maybe it's a metaphor for something far more sinister 12:16:52 a wallet is a state of mind 12:16:57 fuck you all 12:17:08 maybe it was a wallet made of ice/on fire? 12:17:16 (well, I guess I'm not actually counting on IRC help. so n/m) 12:17:44 maybe it was just a pile of money and credit cards and whatever else sgeo keeps in his wallet 12:18:36 FOUND IT 12:18:44 It also has my keys 12:18:48 or did you 12:18:56 So kind of need it to get back into building 12:19:01 So can't really leave without it 12:19:05 are you sure they're your keys 12:22:49 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:22:55 -!- DH____ has joined. 12:31:57 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:46:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:53:53 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 12:54:48 -!- carado_ has joined. 12:55:03 -!- nooodl has joined. 12:56:05 Putting this shampoo in was a mistake. It smells horrific. 12:56:40 is that the head&shoulder we were talking aboutyesterday? 12:59:14 yes 12:59:37 you know I watched that Green Lantern film yesterday. I'm really not a fan of reynolds and the movie was about as good as the third spiderman film, but when he used his ring for the first time the only thing I could think of was "if I get a ring like that, able to build anything out of my imagination, I'll never need to program in any language ever again" 13:00:19 fine structure comes to mind 13:10:42 Sgeo: if your itnerviewer is a woman you probably need to go fetch a better shampoo :) 13:11:31 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:12:16 -!- boily has joined. 13:15:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:24:12 Arc_Koen, er... 13:25:00 wtf I look like I'm going to a fancy dress party, not an interview 13:25:11 you'll `pop 13:25:11 ' 13:25:31 Phantom_Hoover: You don't believe in the power of shampoo? 13:25:45 what sort of power are we talking here 13:25:59 the unimaginable sort 13:26:14 today is a sginteorview day. how many excrutiating seconds left before it? 13:26:15 sounds dangerous 13:26:26 yes 13:26:31 as Sgeo has just found out 13:26:50 how do you think I managed to go so far in my studies without attending the exams!! 13:27:02 These men's dress socks look feminine 13:27:07 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 13:28:03 wtf are you wearing men's dress socks for 13:28:27 It's what my friend guided me to buy for my interview 13:28:39 http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8UYKnFltKEQ/UITnD74CCfI/AAAAAAAAAeQ/OgNHMSU7_rg/s1600/socks-men-dress%5B1%5D.jpg 13:28:43 THESE ARE JUST NORMAL SOCKS 13:29:00 or did you get, like, calf-high ones 13:29:11 There's a pattern on these 13:29:17 god I was imagining Sgeo wearing stockings 13:29:36 you are the worst person 13:30:33 Sgeo, patterns are very feminine, yes 13:30:40 -!- kidanger has left ("WeeChat 0.3.2"). 13:31:07 especially flowers and kitties 13:31:29 squares too 13:31:30 (meanwhile, I just upgraded a package in my local haskell installation, without anything breaking. it feels strange.) 13:31:44 flowers are not feminine. what about hawaiian shirts? 13:31:59 well it depends on what part of the flower you're talking about 13:32:23 catkins are very manly 13:36:33 Ok, heading out now 13:40:30 http://answers.ea.com/t5/Miscellaneous-Issues/Traffic-quot-AI-quot-This-is-why-services-and-traffic-are-broken/m-p/737060#U737060[ 13:40:32 hahaha 13:40:47 i'd have thought maxis of all people would have learnt the dangers of oversimulation 13:41:51 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:42:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:42:18 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:43:23 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado. 13:59:49 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Quit: ragequit). 14:02:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:04:43 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:30:00 -!- carado_ has joined. 14:33:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:34:50 -!- augur has joined. 15:27:14 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:45:14 -!- carado has joined. 16:04:23 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:05:30 http://bpaste.net/show/OrlKdQFBXpBmf21nXX1n/ i wrote a small python lazy-k interpreter 16:05:40 only supports `ski, though 16:09:22 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:15:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:26:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:37:35 nooodl, what, only that one expression? 16:38:06 also: that looks strict 16:38:35 since when is having lazy evaluation an important part of lazy k 16:38:51 is it necessary for tcness? 16:38:55 strict k 16:44:01 -!- Bike has joined. 16:44:48 -!- ogrom has joined. 16:45:26 @tell ais523 any idea about http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=DNA-Sharp&curid=2720&diff=35666&oldid=31940? site owner, maybe? 16:45:27 Consider it noted. 16:45:55 also guys 16:45:57 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amelia 16:45:57 help 16:46:38 give it a week 16:47:09 History: None 16:47:11 Philosophy: None 16:47:13 Uses: None 16:47:54 what a well designed page 16:48:28 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Amelia&oldid=35657 16:48:31 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Amelia&oldid=35658 16:48:33 evolution of amelia 16:48:39 Amelia. 1 day old. No history. No philosophy. No uses. No-- 16:49:07 is this poetry Phantom_Hoover 16:49:51 it's a reference to deus ex 16:51:37 so: yes 16:51:41 i should probably play deus ex 16:51:42 well i have 16:51:45 but only for like five minutes 16:51:56 turns out to be an esolang based on mediawiki formatting 16:52:07 Bike: we already have that 16:52:15 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag 16:52:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:54:00 I don't see a History OR a Philosophy section! 16:54:37 precisely 16:59:05 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:09:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:13:11 -!- bouchou has joined. 17:13:44 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:14:40 ffgf 17:14:42 -!- olsner has joined. 17:15:47 `WELCOME bouchou 17:15:51 BOUCHOU: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 17:18:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:18:44 that link is still broken :( 17:18:48 -!- bouchou has left. 17:22:02 elliott: you scared bouchou. 17:22:24 that's ok. this is a scary place 17:24:39 I'm alive. 17:25:14 thanks for the update 17:26:11 nice, nooodl! 17:26:13 thank god, we weren't sure you'd survive the shampoo fumes 17:27:48 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 17:28:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:31:05 an Sgeo is a unit of time equivalent to ~3h48min. 17:31:37 boily: how... how do you pronounce sgeo 17:32:39 /ɛs.ʒe.ə.o/, why? 17:32:39 "Esgio"? 17:33:27 well I am wondering where the "an" came from 17:33:48 10:18 hi 17:33:56 What's this? 17:34:32 It's better than "ffgf". 17:34:37 (I got a "hi" too.) 17:34:57 I didn't 17:36:03 there weren't any hi here. 17:41:33 It was in PRIVATE. 17:41:42 You don't want to be saying "hi" in public, it's not seemly. 17:42:44 you don't want to be "the monqy" of the channel. 17:43:12 No hi for me :( 17:43:27 It's a general sort of a rule that, in any given situation, if you don't know who the monqy is, chances are it's you. 17:43:39 Mind you, my reply would have been /ignore bouchou!*@* 17:49:10 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 17:49:40 Gregor: hi 17:49:59 Man, I've ignored bouchou like three times now. 17:50:03 That's just not fair to the poor guy. 17:54:12 his nick is ambiguous. does it mean hearing, expansion, counterintelligence or protection against the tide? 17:54:23 yes 18:06:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:20:11 -!- abumirqaan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:26:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:27:30 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:27:31 -!- ssue_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:28:53 There is a Pope. 18:29:32 Or, well, a future Pope has been selected. 18:30:26 So, OI a are things that functions can't really make on their own, but can get values out of? 18:30:40 adept segue 18:30:45 Every IO a becomes a way to get an a out of an OI a, I think 18:31:00 So an OI is almost like a secret key into the real world? 18:32:37 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 18:34:08 darn. they is chosen, but not announced. 18:34:11 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:34:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:40:43 Sgeo: So is OI a comonad? 18:41:18 FreeFull, it's supposed to be. Somehow or other OI doesn't work, but I don't know enough about OI to even understand claims that it doesn't work. 18:45:37 http://24.media.tumblr.com/919ba5543de04d4d7f9d3e27cfd41d10/tumblr_mjm40mAwrq1qkinreo1_1280.gif 18:46:57 Sgeo: Probably doesn't work because there is no way to construct an OI value, other than using bottom =P 18:47:37 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:47:38 The package I saw had a runInteraction :: (OI a -> b) -> IO b 18:47:39 iirc 18:47:56 So runInteraction must internally create an OI 18:48:13 -!- wareya has joined. 18:48:18 If the language were OI based, runInteraction might be external to the system 18:48:37 The same way that with current Haskell, executing IO actions are external to the system 18:50:36 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:03:50 -!- monqy has joined. 19:06:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:08:25 -!- augur has joined. 19:08:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:10:45 -!- sivoais has joined. 19:10:49 Bike: so like. um. do you think I should start an asm/programmy sideblog so that people can follow me without being flooded by fandom things? and so I don't scare people off with scary asm things 19:11:13 if that means you posting more asm things then yes 19:11:14 I wonder what I could call it. "fiora progterma" is terrible 19:11:26 you want more of them? 19:11:43 Sgeo: If OI is a comonad, then what stops you from doing extract 19:12:31 duh, fiora 19:13:32 fiorasm 19:15:35 ... that... works 19:18:27 robofiora 19:18:48 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:19:12 tromp__: i think it isn't actually lazy, as Phantom_Hoover mentioned hours ago 19:19:14 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:19:45 -!- sivoais has joined. 19:22:44 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:23:38 right; it's call-by-need, but without sharing 19:23:58 `run echo "new pope" | uuu 19:24:01 uuu uuuu 19:24:10 `run echo "francis i" | uuu 19:24:13 uuuuuuu u 19:24:26 so call-by-name 19:24:36 why would it be strict? 19:24:46 un echo "francis \n i" | uuu 19:24:51 wop 19:25:09 Fiora: Name it Fiora 090h 19:26:01 but h literal syntax is sin 19:26:21 I was thinking of trying to turn the name into asm puns 19:26:33 but FILDa AESENCa doesn't have the same ring 19:26:50 0xF1074 19:26:58 elliott, but sin(90) = is sqrt 2/2! 19:26:59 ah, i see. you don't delay argument evaluation in combinator s 19:27:33 Fiora: snerk 19:27:37 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:27:49 Fiora: just come up with a quick url like fiorasm and then obsess over the displayed title for the rest of your life 19:28:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:28:10 XD 19:28:18 imo make the title be the same as the subdomain 19:28:34 and no subtitle 19:29:10 mov F10,R4 19:29:12 (what's Fiora dooing?) 19:29:18 I was thinking of making an asm sideblog thing 19:29:23 there's no f10 :< 19:29:26 -!- sivoais has joined. 19:29:43 :P 19:30:09 I'm mildly afraid of asm 19:30:28 Fiora: how did you memorize all the SSE instructions 19:30:33 did you make flashcards or something 19:30:34 nooodl: i once wrote the prime number sieve in python pure lambda style: http://bpaste.net/show/VZJSFQs3eDZf2SqgMi1C/ 19:30:47 You memoriszed all the SSE instructions? 19:30:49 Why? 19:30:54 but you quickly run into python's recursion limit 19:31:08 you can run it with python primes.py 2> /dev/null | head -c 100 19:31:13 oppa lambda style 19:31:23 tromp__, translate it into Lazy K 19:31:28 that joke is a thousand years too late 19:31:29 kmc....................... 19:31:51 no you see now it's self consciously bad 19:32:02 * boily swats kmc with a jar of kimchi 19:32:20 kmc you can't be a hipster about jokes about popular music, it just doesn't work 19:32:31 hipster about internet memes 19:32:32 you mean 19:33:12 you should feel honoured. such a nice, handcrafted jar, with the finest organic virtual ballistic cabbage! 19:36:45 wasn't gangnam style a song at some point 19:37:42 kmc: I definitely didn't memorize them all 19:37:55 I know most of the basic ones but I mean, the ones I know best are just ones I've used a lot 19:37:59 what's pbroadcastvb 19:38:05 I am extremely bad at memorizing things actually 19:38:16 like, I can remember concepts and processes pretty well, but outright memorization is very hard 19:38:25 in 4 years of german in school I learned like a few hundred vocab words 19:38:26 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:38:44 so like, when I think "pmaddubsw", I don't think some raw manual definition of what it does, I think of all the stuff I use it for and the tricks I know with it 19:39:04 and performance characteristics and stuff 19:39:26 ummm I think vpbroadcast only has "b", "w", "d", and "q" 19:39:56 -!- sivoais has joined. 19:39:59 ¬_¬ 19:40:00 ok 19:40:03 makes sense 19:40:46 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:41:00 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:41:03 oh, b, w, d, q, and "i128" 19:41:29 double quad super octo-word 19:41:29 -!- sivoais has joined. 19:41:39 kmc: one result of "not memorizing" like that is that I often don't remember 'exactly' what something does, and I do have to look things up a lot 19:42:10 like. don't ask me which direction palignr works in. I know it's supposed to be "right" (the "r"), but what's "right"? with all the mess of endianness, I have no idea <.< 19:42:18 I kinda just try both and see which works 19:42:51 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:43:10 * Bike notes down: do not ask fiora what "palignr" is or does 19:43:37 palignr is just a way to take AAAAAAAA,BBBBBBBB and get AAAAAABB (for some number of Bs you want to shove into the As) 19:43:38 Bike, it aligns p's to the right 19:43:46 -!- heroux has joined. 19:43:50 fiora, you're not helping your case here 19:44:06 what ;-; 19:44:20 Fiora, Bike's sayin you're awesome 19:44:42 yes, i order you to be less competent 19:48:39 .-. 19:49:09 palignr is like, fun for things like FIR filters 19:52:06 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:52:41 -!- sivoais has joined. 19:59:12 do fir filters care about fun? 20:03:43 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:05:16 olsner: yes, but it's a birch. 20:06:19 i am evergreen with envy over those puns 20:06:45 I'm pining for more 20:09:11 -!- nooga has joined. 20:10:54 glade to see other deranged minds punning with me, even if it's not oak-ay for this channel. 20:13:23 if I had any non-bad puns I'd concedar joining you 20:13:24 I tried to right a pun, but I made an ash of it 20:14:39 * Gregor sets fire to the channel. 20:14:46 IT'S A PUN 20:14:47 DO YOU GET IT 20:14:50 BECAUSE TREES BURN 20:14:52 AND SO WILL YOU 20:16:01 Why do ducks have flat feet? 20:16:11 To stamp out forest fires 20:16:15 Why do elephants have flat feet? 20:16:22 To stamp out burning ducks 20:16:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:17:37 -!- abumirqaan has joined. 20:19:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:23:49 -!- ssue_ has joined. 20:25:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:25:40 weird 20:25:46 so apparently in order to see my own posts on my dash 20:25:46 agreed 20:25:49 I have to follow myself 20:25:54 oh i preferred it when it was just weird 20:26:10 Fiora, yeah, I don't see PH's posts on Tumblr 20:27:11 Fiora: you should probably anounce it on your main one 20:27:48 "Cardinal Bergoglio has encouraged his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[11] He supports the use of contraception to prevent the spread of disease, meaning he is not a completely hidebound prude.[12] 20:27:48 " 20:27:51 real npov there wp 20:28:32 looks like someone has an opinion 20:28:34 brace yourselves, edit wars are coming. 20:28:42 it's already locked 20:29:02 does the new one also have a supervillain lookalike? 20:29:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Card._Jorge_Bergoglio_SJ,_2008.jpg iunno, he looks boring mostly 20:29:47 haha is it protected with that on the page 20:30:04 yes, yes it is. 20:30:08 that's good 20:30:10 It has a cite though! 20:30:12 boily, are you meming 20:30:16 So it's fine. 20:30:26 no it's not i just checked 20:30:28 you suck 20:30:35 it was when i looked at it four seconds ago :( 20:30:38 now i'm on to the talk page 20:30:40 «Include information pertaining to the Popes stance regarding SCIENTOLOGy's religious status (in Argentina).99.8.125.39 (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)» 20:30:55 agreed 20:30:56 Phantom_Hoover: sorry, my brain is partially out of order today. I'm usually more impervious to memetification. 20:31:16 «I have never posted on Wikipedia before and have no real plans to post later.. but i think the sentence "He is another homophobic bastard indeed." should probably be removed» 20:31:48 i like how there have been a good few hundred edits to that page today 20:33:51 https://twitter.com/Pontifex/status/311922995633455104 i'm scared 20:34:16 the idea of the vatican fucking tweeting in latin 100% seriously is the funniest thing 20:34:38 dude the trends 20:34:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:34:53 "#HabemusPapam" "#PrimerasPalabrasDelPapa" "#LosArgentinosDominamosElMundo" "#ReplaceMovieTitlesWithPope" 20:35:16 tuit. he he he. I shouldn't be laughing, but I mean, tuit. 20:35:33 tuit? 20:35:54 tuit. 20:36:01 tuit 20:36:23 unfortunately Bergoglio's personal twitter is just in Spanish 20:36:46 he has retweeted somebody named "mitt romney" wearing a Scream mask, though 20:38:24 sounds like someone hip with the culture of todayt 20:38:26 haha link 20:39:09 https://twitter.com/cassin2851/status/232854175040552960 20:39:23 bergoglio is the guy on the right in vestments 20:40:03 that's not mitt romney, that's mitt rommey 20:40:20 If I'm the new pope, children will love me more than the Santa Claus # Vatican 20:40:24 republicano conservador adherente al tea party 20:40:28 actual tweet by pope 20:40:56 is this a fake account 20:41:15 "#LosArgentinosDominamosElMundo" :| 20:41:18 this bergoglio guy sure is rewteet ing a lot of hip stuff, like this one guy he retweeted has as his avatar that picture of a cat with a thing on his head 20:41:34 elliott: that would explain why a guy who's been accused of war crimes retweeted HIJOS 20:41:35 im sure there are lots of fake accounts 20:41:37 nooodl: inorite. 20:41:42 is monqy a fake account 20:41:54 ¿Y por qué #NoALosHomosexuales directamente? #NoALaAdopciónEntreHomosexuales 20:42:12 Sólo la iglesia debe protejer a esos niños, abrazarlos, mimarlos, darles calor, darles amor, darles... eh eh #NoALaAdopciónEntreHomosexuales 20:42:13 sorry, this isn't #pontifex is it? 20:42:20 er, @pontifex 20:42:21 no, it's JMBergoglio 20:42:32 pontifex deleted all their tweets and replaced them with latin 20:42:33 i see this guy also retweeted a tweet with "fuck you" in it 20:42:42 'That Twitter Account for the New Pope Is Fake, Fake, Fake 20:42:45 :( 20:42:45 IM GETTING THE FEELING THIS ISNT ACTUALLY THE POPE GYUYAS 20:42:50 *GUYZ 20:42:51 *ES 20:42:54 ugh 20:42:55 news.va 20:43:00 isn't available in latin... 20:43:14 i am so disappointed 20:43:19 nuntii.va 20:43:36 Not a website 20:43:43 Looks like it ought to be Finnish 20:43:43 http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/ is 20:43:49 Q:which pope is the real pope??? 20:43:59 A:Elijah Wood 20:43:59 the real pope is peter two of spain 20:44:02 turns out theres multiple popes 20:44:07 each one thinks they've been elected 20:44:12 each one thinks they're francis 20:44:13 congrats on your papacy, everyone 20:44:15 only one will survive 20:44:20 "Proelium Stalingradense commemorabatur" 20:44:26 is this "Stalingrad" in latin 20:44:48 "Stalingradens" is probably "from Stalingrad" 20:45:02 Obama alterum quadriennium coepit 20:45:19 The battle of Stalingrad is commemorated? 20:45:24 -!- augur has joined. 20:45:24 yeah 20:45:34 probably, i mean two million people died 20:45:34 let's partake of a hot dog bun! 20:45:46 it kind of sucked, speaking overall 20:45:59 Obama gains another term? 20:46:16 coepisse is "to begin" 20:46:27 Bah 20:46:31 I need to learn this 20:46:37 Bike: would you say it was kind of a bummer. totally lame 20:46:47 Seriously, I've ended up doing A-level latin even though I suck at it 20:46:52 you're thinking, uh, capit? 20:47:02 Perhaps 20:47:06 no that's present, ugh 20:47:09 I think I was just thinking what makes sense 20:47:14 elliott: yes i think most survivors would agree that it was, quote, "totally lame" and/or "sucktastic". 20:47:15 cepit 20:47:18 Censorship? Micaela Lisola? Mary Elizabeth Censorship Larrauri not let you take the microphone to whom she wants! 20:47:19 thanks wiktionary 20:47:22 - the pope 20:47:24 Because I knew I didn't know coepit 20:48:31 the latin tweet on @Pontifex disappeared... 20:49:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pope_Francis#It.27s_Francis_I_.E2.80.93_A_New_Pope anyway the important thing is whether he's I or not. 20:49:46 Bike: pretty sure this is an elaborate setup to an ARG 20:49:54 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:49:59 "He was not born in India - FIX THAT" 20:50:02 wouldn't it be Francis IV - A New Pope? 20:50:04 fake twitter accounts, mysterious uppercase latin tweet that's then deleted 20:50:08 no shut up fiora 20:50:15 :< 20:50:16 fiora....................... 20:50:33 elliott: jesus returns, catholicism turns out to be an elaborate role-playing game 20:50:41 guys can we stop for a second and recognise that a papal ARG would be the best thing in the universe 20:50:49 i had no idea how much i wanted this in my life until now 20:50:53 ARG? 20:50:58 alternate-reality game 20:50:59 @google alternate reality game 20:51:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_reality_game 20:51:01 Title: Alternate reality game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 20:51:11 elliott: that sounds very good 20:51:27 maybe it'd be a lot like a dan brown book though?? 20:51:37 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 20:51:48 ok but face it being in a dan brown book would actually be awesome (unless you died) 20:51:52 how can anything that stupid not be awesome 20:51:53 elliott: are you still making a roguelike you could make a papal roguelike. you could you could. 20:52:01 monqy: wow papal roguelike....... 20:52:04 trivia: "angels and demons" is like the only novel i've ever stopped reading out of boredom 20:52:07 EVERYTHING is better with more catholicism 20:52:19 papal roguelike would work pretty well, i mean have you seen those catacombs? 20:52:25 you haven't, because they're off-limits. 20:52:29 i'm not gonna lie i loved the da vinci code film 20:52:32 but not to the pope 20:52:33 i mean it was terrible 20:52:36 and i loved it 20:52:41 Bike, Assassin's Creed II and Brotherhood? 20:52:49 what is that, thath sounds dumb 20:52:50 i think i saw that film 20:53:01 ive never seen any of these things 20:53:02 i bet you hardly ever play as the pope 20:53:25 elliott: make "vagrant 3: papal vagrant" 20:53:33 in the arg you'd have to literally travel to vatican city 20:53:35 sneak in 20:53:38 experience of a lifetime 20:54:02 yes!! 20:54:25 "Are you here on a pilgrimage?" "no, i'm just roleplaying" 20:54:27 and everyone there's in on the "game" and they know you're on a mission and they're like "welcome, sir" 20:55:15 note: preceding statement was by a bad roleplayer 20:55:23 nooodl no 20:55:35 it would just be very illegal tresspassing 20:55:39 the budget doesn't cover that 20:55:48 is it illegal to enter vatican city. can you enter vatican city i honestly don't know. 20:55:51 what's a vatican, what's a pope 20:55:55 this just got extra intense 20:56:01 well you need a passport 20:56:03 no it's illegal 20:56:15 you need an illuminati passport 20:56:17 but they have fucktons of tourists and pilgrims and probably roleplayers? 20:56:45 Bike, all trespassers 20:57:27 dastardly. 20:57:32 Opposed - Keep as "Pope Francis". According to the Pope's official Twitter "HABEMUS PAPAM FRANCISCUM" no use of ordinal [8]. --Zimbabweed (talk) 19:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC) 20:57:34 I trespassed there twice. once for the great circle thing, after that for the museums. 20:57:42 oh wow i just noticed their username 20:57:45 zimbabweed 20:58:02 i'm so glad we're all bonding over the new pope 20:58:07 Being a musician as well, Francis also played the violin frequently for the natives, which helped them relate better to him. He is often depicted playing this instrument. 20:58:09 is there even a single catholic here 20:58:12 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:58:25 my family is catholic does that count 20:58:42 It's "HABEMUS PAPAM FRANCISCUM" instead of "HABEMVS PAPAM FRANCISCVM"? 20:58:43 Lame! 20:58:49 whats it like to have a religious family thats such a weird idea to me 20:58:52 i love all these people saying popes ALWAYS have an ordinal number 20:58:54 america is baffling 20:58:55 it's weird 20:59:00 do you have to go to church 20:59:01 going off of three examples, one of which was over a thousand years ago 20:59:02 elliott: It's uncomfortable. 20:59:16 nah i was able get my parents to stop making me go years ago 20:59:24 congratulations 20:59:29 heathen 20:59:43 i've been in a church like 20:59:46 five times in my life? 20:59:50 monqy: do they make you go in the present instead now 20:59:58 shachaf: :-) 21:00:05 monqy: btw if your parents are married that makes them not single catholics 21:00:08 and i went to a church of england school 21:00:09 so it doesn't count 21:00:12 -!- nooga has joined. 21:00:26 You call it the church of england? not anglicanism or something 21:00:32 shachaf: :-) 21:00:41 Bike: well they're "C of E schools" (you say see of ee) 21:00:49 monqy: are you disapproving 21:00:50 nice 21:01:10 Bike: i think anglicanism is like more broad?? 21:01:11 church of england but only for historical reasons 21:01:30 church of england vs church of wales, fight 21:01:39 how christian i am: just baptized, really 21:02:17 did your family bap you and stop caring 21:02:24 yes 21:02:27 literally that 21:02:35 i haven't been baptised unless i was and nobody ever told me and i forgot about it 21:02:44 or maybe someone told me and i forgot about it? but i'm pretty sure i wasn't!! 21:02:44 ohhhhh the last non-european pope was actually syrian 21:03:21 monqy: well there was still like, a daily prayer thing in the school 21:03:30 but that was like literally it 21:03:36 i'm pretty sure going to a religious school makes you at least half a bishop. 21:03:49 Are queens half-bishops? 21:04:01 like aren't religious schools in america really religious or something 21:04:06 I guess they're full bishops and also rooks on top of that. 21:04:08 elliott: Generally, yes. 21:04:37 They are schools that straight-up indoctrinate in religion, rather than being schools that happen to be associated with a religiou organization. 21:04:38 All i know about american catholic schools i learned from You Damn Kid so i'm going to go with yes 21:04:47 Non-Catholic religious schools more so. 21:04:53 wasn't there some state that required a pledge to God and Country before allowing you to graduate from high school? 21:05:13 it's standard to pledge to god and country every day anyway 21:05:19 olsner: Probably multiple, but such a thing is blatantly unconstitutional. 21:05:57 i remember my family being upset that people didnt have to pledge to God in the pledge of allegiance in schools, or something like that. i dont understand my family. 21:06:03 yikes monqy yikes 21:06:07 your family is scary!!! 21:06:24 * Bike had been assuming that monqy was some kind of non-american foreigner. what is this 21:06:50 My father thinks that gay people are pedophiles, and you become gay by being raped as a child. 21:07:00 Bike: americans are all foreigners, hth 21:07:06 my life is a lie. 21:07:23 Bike, that is, except for the Swedish ones 21:07:25 i dont talk to my parents about things like that because i know it would be unproductive and upsetting 21:11:22 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:11:25 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:11:50 monqy: scary 21:11:52 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:12:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:13:36 -!- nooga_ has joined. 21:14:19 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:14:34 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:15:38 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:19:10 the church is such an absolutist institute - I did not vote for a cardinal yet he does represent my vote 21:24:46 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:27:04 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:28:21 that's called representative democracy, anothertest 21:28:48 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 21:29:17 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Changing host). 21:29:17 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 21:29:17 they get locked in and put on rations, their pain makes them good representatives 21:29:40 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 21:29:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:30:03 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:30:04 it would work better if they didn't get fed 21:31:15 they did that the first time, a guy died. 21:31:29 worked pretty well though yes 21:31:30 haha did they really 21:31:33 please tell me that's true 21:31:35 yes 21:31:41 amazing 21:31:48 the papal conclave system got started because they'd gone three years without picking one 21:31:56 right i knew that much 21:31:57 so the magistrates were all "uuuugh fuck you guys" and locked them in 21:32:45 and put them on bread and water (which is less than they do now, FUCKIN SOFTIES) 21:34:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_Segusio and this guy was taken out to die 21:40:41 okay but by not fed 21:40:44 i didn't mean fed with bread and water 21:40:50 i could live for months on bread and water 21:41:17 Have you considered becoming a medieval French monarch? I think you've got what it takes. 21:41:19 why does this not contain info about his death i want my money back 21:41:30 Bike: um that would require me to become french 21:41:36 which would destroy my soul and worse, make me french 21:41:38 Hardly. 21:41:54 I mean you know the present queen of England is like, Dutch or something. 21:45:07 that's way better than being french. 21:46:03 yes the point is that all you have to do is fabricate some evidence that twelve thousand years ago your ancestor was the (spanish) queen of the gauls and you're golden 21:48:04 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:49:27 ok but also I'll have to rule over french people 21:49:32 a fate worse than death 21:50:03 there presently isn't a french monarch so they probably wouldn't take you seriously 21:50:17 i'd be mediææval!!! 21:50:22 mediEVIL 22:10:12 Bike: the popes twitter got suspended rip 22:10:52 :( 22:11:06 where did you go wrong, franky 22:11:11 ? 22:12:31 probably tried to troll 4chan 22:13:08 its pretty cute how each of the pontifex accounts follow each other 22:13:25 do the other language ones have translations of the latin 22:13:30 if so why doesnt the english account have a translation of the latin???? 22:13:31 theyre all latin 22:13:33 good 22:13:41 "fuck you we're doing latin" ------ church 22:14:05 mass sounds a lot better to me in latin, no lie 22:20:47 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 22:21:00 I'm somewhat confused why people seem to care so much about this. (Note by this I'm not saying it is completely unimportant, just that I'm wondering why a lot of non-catholics seems to care so /much/ about it...) 22:21:27 just some silly ol pop culture to bond over 22:21:34 hah 22:21:43 like celebrities but in the real world 22:22:14 well, I never got the point of celebrities either, so I guess that explains it 22:22:48 i've only gotten celebrities by analogy with actually fascinating things like pope 22:23:16 Vorpal: he's a major political figure, kinda like that obama dude, I think 22:23:39 Fiora, technically he commands the smallest country in the world, both by area and population. 22:23:59 catholicism has more 'citizens' than china ^^; 22:24:00 a relatively minor major political figure 22:24:10 Fiora, in that sense, true 22:25:07 http://www.theonion.com/articles/focus-who-is,31657/ hth. 22:25:14 Fiora, but he has no military to speak of 22:25:15 is the weather nice in catholicism 22:25:17 maybe i'll move there 22:25:46 compared to the US hardly anybody has a military to speak of anyway, so that's no problem 22:26:10 Well, China kind of does iirc 22:26:31 they still spend like, half as much 22:26:37 well yes 22:27:22 doesn't the us spend more than the rest of the world combined 22:27:35 basically 22:27:46 PLUS the pope's military wears cool hats 22:27:48 i think they're good 22:28:09 looks like china spends $143.0Bn 22:28:12 us spends $711.0Bn 22:28:14 i like these .0s 22:28:28 Anyway, the pope commands a tiny country, and does not have much real political power on stuff that matters for non-catholics, possibly apart from the question of abortion in certain countries. 22:28:36 so us spends 5x as much as china 22:28:53 Vorpal: you realise that stuff catholics do affect non-catholics too right 22:29:03 the catholic church kind of has quite a lot of power in parts of the world other than america... 22:29:08 especially africa and south america 22:29:09 and also more generally there are an awful lot of catholics so from a world politics pov what happens to them is relevant 22:29:24 and their policies kind of affect a billion people 22:30:12 elliott, sure, but I'm questioning if the pope has much effect on (or even could have the potential to have) the question of, for example, EU agricultural politics. 22:30:16 afaik I've met exactly one catholic 22:30:34 well how is EU agricultural politics any more or less relevant to people in #esoteric than catholicism 22:30:42 i guess it's more since a bunch of people are european here but still 22:30:46 like the catholic church's policy on condoms literally affects the future of an entire continent almost 22:31:20 elliott, that was just an example. My point is that outside a few specific areas, what he says will have very little effect on non-catholics as far as I can tell 22:31:51 good point? 22:31:55 a few specific huge areas??? 22:31:58 Except where governments with a lot of Catholic people may listen to the Pope and be swayed against things such as legalizing gay marriage 22:32:10 thgeo 22:32:23 elliott, really? I can only think of abortion and safe sex. What am I missing? 22:32:28 "only" 22:32:37 do you know how many people AIDS kills dude 22:33:19 I'm not denying they are important questions. But they are just two questions out of many. 22:33:24 something about people being treated badly for something about homosexuality 22:33:35 monqy, ah yes, good point, forgot that. 22:33:37 human rights generally "a thing" 22:33:58 well, i'm sure that that the cardinal referred to an argentinian civil marriage law as being the work of Satan won't affect anything 22:34:12 monqy, Fairly significant area indeed, good point 22:34:23 wasn't that elliott's point 22:34:33 Bike, it won't affect the majority of the world no 22:34:36 or uhh maybe someone before that 22:34:41 you're charismatic enough that you can take others' points, monqy. 22:34:49 a dangerous power 22:34:50 take them and mold them into beautiful birds. 22:36:14 Bike, perhaps it is because I live in an extremely secular country (Sweden) that this seems so foreign to me. But if some priests here proclaimed such a thing, sure it would cause a bit of discussion, but eh, in the end, who would care much. 22:37:18 I consider the church over here a minority. A fairly vocal minority at times yes, but still a minority. 22:37:43 anyway, good night 22:37:46 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:40:30 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:44:22 Vorpal: all i can parse out of your statement is "i do not notice when religion affects politics and daily life in my home country" 22:45:26 22:25:07 http://www.theonion.com/articles/focus-who-is,31657/ hth. 22:45:31 i didnt get around to looking at this tab until now but its good 22:45:33 too bad bike left already!!! 22:49:21 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Life_expectancy_in_some_Southern_African_countries_1958_to_2003.png 22:49:21 wow 22:49:42 Wow, why did it drop down like that 22:50:03 HIV? 22:50:49 yeah... 22:51:30 oops 22:51:38 hi nooodl 22:51:43 hey 22:51:53 What I want to know is why Uganda went so badly. 22:52:51 Oh, Idi Amin is why. 22:53:37 http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin wow stay classy dutch wikipedia 22:53:52 -!- augur has joined. 22:54:58 -!- Bike has joined. 22:55:43 hi Bike welcome back 22:56:11 helliott 22:56:17 did i miss anything remotely interesting 22:56:23 22:45:25 22:25:07 http://www.theonion.com/articles/focus-who-is,31657/ hth. 22:56:26 22:45:31 i didnt get around to looking at this tab until now but its good 22:56:29 22:45:33 too bad bike left already!!! 22:56:31 hth 22:56:35 other than let's see *looks at logs* death 22:58:14 you also missed shitty dutch wikipedia 22:58:23 always good to learn about death and shitty wikipediaa 22:58:46 wikipedipodes 22:58:54 you know what's more fun than wikipedia orienteering? 22:59:00 wikipedia orienteering in dutch 22:59:18 well, i can't read this language, but i assume the text goes downhill from using a caricature as his picture 22:59:46 what i did was i pressed the translate button on my browser 22:59:48 because i live in the future 23:00:22 hehe wikipedipodes 23:01:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_My_Defens_God_Me_Defend 23:01:49 wow we have the shittiest motto 23:03:20 http://www.theonion.com/articles/how-the-papal-conclave-selects-the-pope,31614/ 23:03:54 nice 23:04:05 In my defence God me defend And bring my sawl to ane good end ane vertuous lyf procureth ane happie death... 23:04:40 -!- boily has joined. 23:04:41 scots is basically just english written by someone who hasn't quite gotten the hang of things but thinks themselves quite good anyway 23:04:45 which also describes scots themselves 23:04:52 In my defense God me defend and bring my saulle to ane guid end O Lord. 23:05:41 chinese wikipedia is an even better challenge 23:05:46 but! the philosophy trick works 23:06:09 the philosophy trick works when you don't know what the chinese for 'Philosophy' is? 23:06:34 i don't know chinese but i do know greek orthography 23:06:44 and also the page image is called 'the death of socrates' 23:08:52 good deduction then 23:09:16 however it doesn't have the short cycle that makes philosophy an obvious terminal point 23:10:09 In fact I don't think it's terminal at all; I think human is. 23:10:30 now can you find an article that's terminanl for all wikipediae 23:10:36 Which then leads to a very roundabout loop through the biology articles. 23:15:33 Phantom_Hoover: have you realised that scots are ridiculous 23:15:45 i mean you think you're a people but you're actually just fake english 23:16:13 see this is why even the english hate the english 23:16:14 i have this weird urge to strangle you right now, i wonder if one of my ancestors was from scotsworld 23:16:41 Bike: it is probably because i mentioned scots, they inspire murderous rage in us all 23:17:05 i've never even seen braveheart 23:21:31 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:22:21 https://twitter.com/Non_Cunningham more papal news 23:22:45 man i wish popes stopped being pope more often 23:22:56 i could make a "sports night" out of this 23:23:07 get everyone around to watch the vatican news intensely 23:23:19 what do you think they do in st peter's square 23:23:25 i bet they have a fucking jumbotron set up 23:23:36 can we get sports commentators in the place where they elect the dudes 23:23:43 i'd listen 23:24:15 it's super secret, they've thrown out reporters posing as maids and shit all the time 23:24:23 they go over it with a bug detector 23:25:05 scots reminds me of old zzo 23:25:08 i think attempting to get information out gets you automatically excommunicated, even if you're a cardinal 23:25:13 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 23:25:16 reporters posing as maids.................... 23:25:19 are you just making this shit up 23:25:46 i don't think you understand why i follow this stuff, elliott 23:25:51 it is because it is balls to the wall crazy 23:25:55 there are dozens of balls on that wall 23:26:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP1rmsCPbQU 23:26:04 which wall are a we talking 23:26:04 will this do? 23:26:09 vatican city walls 23:26:38 They probably got found out when the see got around to doing whatever they do with the maids. 23:26:56 Bike: is that why you follow #esoteric 23:27:02 yes, i am referring to the servian walls 23:27:07 elliott: finally someone gets it 23:27:23 Phantom_Hoover: ?? is this english 23:27:35 destroyer of the nonce-sphere 23:27:45 if you're not sure whether something is english or not it's probably scots 23:28:07 digitox, the removable hard drive planet 23:28:23 "Shut up you precious bellend" 23:28:27 quality youtube comments 23:28:27 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 23:28:51 elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave#Expelling_the_outsiders but no, i'm quite serious 23:29:39 they are very serious about their popes 23:29:40 Cardinals who arrive after the conclave has begun are admitted nevertheless. An ill cardinal may leave the conclave and later be readmitted; a cardinal who leaves for any reason other than illness may not return to the conclave.[74] 23:29:50 you're telling me they're allowed to leave for reasons other than illness???? 23:29:56 also shouldn't they just like have a hospital ward in the building 23:30:00 they're not dedicated enough 23:30:34 Only three cardinals electors are permitted to communicate with the outside world under grave circumstances, prior to approval of the College, to fulfil their duties: the Major Penitentiary, the Cardinal Vicar for the Diocese of Rome, and the Vicar General for the Vatican City State.[4] 23:30:36 a hospital ward in the sistine chapel? 23:30:43 i wonder what could possibly be grave enough to report to the outside world but not like 23:30:45 i think attempting to get information out gets you automatically excommunicated, even if you're a cardinal 23:30:46 to leave the building 23:30:46 omg 23:30:51 Bike: yes 23:30:56 getting excommunicated is on my to do list 23:31:12 vatican architects must be quite creative 23:31:23 i assume that they've made a deal with the mole people or something, there can't be room to build otherwise 23:31:41 Before the conclave that elected Pope Benedict XVI, the Sistine Chapel was "swept" using the latest electronic devices to detect any hidden "bugs" or surveillance devices (there were no reports that any were found, but in previous conclaves press reporters who had disguised themselves as conclave servants were discovered). Universi Dominici Gregis specifically prohibits media such as newspapers, the radio, and television.[75] Wi-Fi access is blocked 23:31:53 cut off after "Wi-Fi access is blocked" 23:31:54 i just completely love the catholic church's blend of existing in 2013 23:31:58 and totally not even remotely existing in 2013 in the slightest 23:32:02 Wi-Fi access is blocked in Vatican City and wireless signal jammers are deployed at the Sistine Chapel to prevent any form of electronic communications to or from the Cardinal electors.[76] 23:32:17 like can you even imagine a cardinal using wifi 23:32:20 it's unthinkable to me 23:32:30 do they have iphones 23:32:34 did you know that one of the popes in the nineteenth century banned jews from going out after dark 23:32:54 good jurisdiction 23:32:55 more news from xantiar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5xnznFzLek http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2o4W4-ULjM 23:34:38 the lower head. i can't handle this 23:34:53 wow i was reading the exact same paragraph elliott 23:35:36 what a coinky-dink!!!!!!!!! 23:37:32 Bike: this twitter is puzzling and i think i like it 23:38:09 apparently it's a parody of some theologian but i don't think that's important 23:38:44 i like how the prince is sub-lord utalax both times, phantom_hoover, it's nice to see some consistency in the news for once 23:38:48 Bike: i was thinking it might be a really cool theologician who only posts on twitter sarcastically 23:39:05 but then i was like: probably not 23:39:10 then i briefly entertained the idea that they might be serious 23:39:12 Bike, i'm not sure if supercommander dek lazer is the same in both though 23:39:46 "Am I the JEFF GOLDBLUM of THEOLOGY??!???" 23:40:18 "Fucking nihilist" "Fucking creationist" "Fucking anonymous atheist" "Fucking philosophers" "Really I just want to be the Alain de Bottom of American pseudo-intellectual evangelicalism. Is that too much to ask?" 23:41:04 "Reminder: without the incarnation you CANNOT differentiate a Thai massage from MURDER-SEX." 23:41:39 that reminds me, did you know that a person named Nimrod Meggido actually exists 23:41:40 "In this article I argue that secularist care more about POLAR BEARS than UNBORN BABIES (I actually make this point)" 23:41:46 Megiddo, sorry 23:41:55 he's into game theory 23:42:03 Alain de Bottom 23:42:50 "grace makes you MORE of a GIRAFFE (i actually said this)" 23:43:45 -!- carado_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:44:11 "Finding out a theological mentor is gay is like finding out your lovers vagina is made of tesco value slices of ham" 23:44:15 -!- carado has joined. 23:50:05 better than horse meat 23:50:13 am i right folks? 23:50:23 because of all the horse meat that tesco recently sold 23:50:26 Yes, I would rather eat human reproductive organs than horses. 23:50:36 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:50:46 is there something you know about 'value slices of ham' that i don't 23:51:20 Are you a virgin? Then yes. 23:51:28 nope 23:51:53 Are you a third degree SexMaster yet? 23:52:33 You too can become a Third Degree SexMaster™ for only $29.95 23:53:06 is this scientology 23:53:13 sexentology 23:58:00 hm, the same site has articles titled "WATCH: Halle Berry’s Cleavage Stole The Show Last Night On Leno" and "Pope Francis I Is No Fan Of Homosexuality, Abortion, Contraception, And Same-Sex Adoption" 23:58:20 is it buzzfeed 23:58:40 Mediaite, so probably yes? I don't know. 23:59:09 oh nice, he called gay marriage "a real and dire anthropological throwback" 23:59:32 thanks, american anthropological association, for giving me something to cite for this shit 2013-03-14: 00:00:12 http://www.aaanet.org/issues/policy-advocacy/Statement-on-Marriage-and-the-family.cfm `-` 00:00:30 Google Reader is shutting down :( 00:00:47 Bike: nice XD 00:01:26 like come on, don't say "anthropology" if you don't know shit about it, how hard is that 00:01:29 what's Google Reader? 00:01:38 Google's RSS reader service 00:02:14 Can't you use uh... thunderbird or something 00:02:31 yes Bike, there exist multiple RSS readers 00:02:39 that doesn't mean that the death of one RSS reader is insignificant 00:02:48 The problem with any non-cloud RSS reader for me is that computers don't seem to last long in my hands. 00:02:52 "GMail is shutting down" "WELL JUST RUN YOUR DOWN DNS AND MX, LOSER" 00:02:56 own* 00:02:59 ok, ok, i get it 00:03:00 Bike: are anthropologists nice people 00:03:08 Dammit, now I need a new RSS reader. 00:03:18 and yeah, the hosted service is super useful 00:03:31 this might be an impetus for me to make my own strange RSS reader with various features i've wanted 00:03:34 elliott: now that they've mostly gotten over the vast galloping racism, yeah they're pretty cool. i had a professor who worked in the caribbean making oil shirtless with the people he was studying 00:03:44 like the HN spamfiltered tricklefeed 00:04:02 At least I'll be abandoning a misfeature of Google Reader: The whole "You haven't read it after 30 days? Guess what, you have!" thing 00:04:21 Bike: i never knew racism could gallop 00:04:51 kmc: you should steal my rss strategy 00:04:53 it's to not use it 00:04:59 k 00:05:09 i'll just have Sgeo ping me on IRC whenevr any of my webcomics update 00:05:24 elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jean_Louis_Th%C3%A9odore_G%C3%A9ricault_001.jpg artists' depiction of galloping racists 00:05:36 HEY NOW you said galloping racism not galloping racists 00:05:42 refund pls??? 00:06:02 "racism" is the plural of "racist", which is the kind of hovervehicle depicted in this image 00:06:20 oh ok 00:06:28 hth 00:06:55 anyway i'll ask what my friend who actually uses rss uses as a reader, in order to atone for my sins 00:13:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:16:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:35:21 I should continue reading about OI 00:35:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:35:53 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:36:28 Sgeo: the comonad? 00:36:44 Yes 00:36:56 elliott keeps saying it doesn't work, but I'd love to know what 'it' is 00:37:10 Well, what would an "OI a" be? 00:37:11 @hoogle comonad 00:37:12 package comonad 00:37:12 package comonad-extras 00:37:12 package comonad-random 00:37:30 Wouldn't it be an "a" along with the entire universe? 00:37:35 You can't really pass the universe around. 00:39:16 * Sgeo hands tswett a frog 00:39:25 I stand corrected. 00:39:57 http://comonad.com/reader/2011/free-monads-for-less-3/ "[The second problem with RealWorld is], you don't really get to pass the real world around! We have multiple cores working these days." 00:39:58 give me a comonad and a place to stand, and i will lift the RealWorld 00:40:15 I like the implication that before multi-core processors came about, it was possible to pass the real world around. 00:40:32 damn multicores ruining everything. 00:41:15 Going to watch a video on Idris then continue reading the OI paper 00:41:36 Oh the video is an hour long 00:41:40 :/ 00:42:33 Bike: no followers on my sideblog, even :< 00:42:55 Fiora: it would help if i knew it existed 00:43:02 oh. I thought I mentioned it to you 00:43:04 like just put a thing on your blog saying "hey nerds get the fuck over here" 00:43:05 Fiora, btw, you may like this http://www.fpgarelated.com/showarticle/44.php 00:43:07 fiorasm.tumblr.com 00:43:10 your main blog, i mean 00:43:14 oh 00:44:01 because otherwise nobody will know it exists 00:44:08 and you will be asming in the æther 00:48:35 This paper seems a bit... off 00:48:48 or, hmm 00:48:50 Sgeo: so how was the interview? 00:49:01 Arc_Koen, it went well, I ... think, not sure though 00:49:33 yeah nobody's ever certain 00:49:52 did she say anything about your shampoo? 00:49:53 Ok, this paper keeps calling bind impure 00:49:57 Arc_Koen, he, and no. 00:50:17 er, like >>= bind? 00:50:40 yes 00:51:20 Maybe I'm not quite grasping its terminology 00:52:04 err.... 00:52:37 "Typically, IO operations of a Haskell program are performed in the main module, which has the type () -> IO()." 00:52:43 c00kiemon5ter: that whole thing seems kind of weird... I guess it's trying to find a better way to code 'call' instructions, but it never talks about any other instructions on the machine...? 00:52:58 Sgeo: i thought main was IO ()? 00:53:02 Bike, it is 00:53:15 also it's not a module? 00:53:21 is it a module 00:53:32 Well, main is typically found in a module called Main, but... 00:53:46 Don't know if that's always the case 00:53:46 the idea is kinda cool? but I think calls are only a couple percent of code size 00:53:52 I'd guess jumps are a lot more 00:53:54 are we talking about modules as in ringy vector spaces 00:54:02 Phantom_Hoover, we are talking Haskell 00:54:03 if only. 00:54:10 Phantom_Hoover: yes. 00:54:11 And this paper is making me go "er..." a lot 00:54:12 D-modules in fact. 00:54:36 Fiora: you know it's a good paper when it starts out by talking about totally unrelated bullshit about technology adoption 00:54:57 (i was really expecting something more interesting when i looked up what modules were) 00:55:19 nothing is interesting 00:55:22 everything is interesting 00:56:34 I guess it's just like, the idea for a 'table' of calls is kind of cool, but it feels like it wouldn't actually help that much, and it's only like, a tiny part of what defines a processor 00:57:13 well he does say it's a minor component. 00:57:15 I might be misreading it though, since it seems to be implying there's some larger impact (?) 00:57:29 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:57:33 I guess I'm also a little confused by "interpreters" that don't execute any instructions <.< 00:59:01 that's where the bullshit comes in 01:01:03 Phantom_Hoover, have you been watching PMMM? I'm about to watch second ep. of Farscape 01:01:10 yeah 01:01:15 i especially liked that part where... 01:01:53 yeah that was a good part 01:07:35 Sgeo, ok i'll admit, i haven't 01:07:46 i'm sorry for fooling you 01:08:16 honesty is the best policy 01:08:23 now go watch it sillybutt :p 01:08:29 oh i thought you were referring to That Spoiler 01:08:40 which i don't know what it is but everybody sure gets excited about it 01:09:34 $character dies 01:09:42 01:09:44 oh no!! 01:10:11 $character was my favorite :( 01:10:38 let's face it, it would just be a letdown after farscape 01:10:42 imo and when except saturday turkeys 01:12:05 elliott i don't think you actually said anything 01:12:22 phantiieee you should watch it 01:12:23 how dare you bike, i said that which is ! 01:12:29 he said 'imo and when except saturday turkeys' 01:12:38 (rle'd) 01:12:49 oh 01:13:07 «what our Vatican analyst calls a «hinge point»» who the hell does NBC hire 01:13:51 people who quote with «these stupid things» 01:14:09 they interviewed a white american guy to say that it was great for latin america 01:14:27 elliott’s “ ” and the others’ “something (if i got the color code right)” look different in my terminal. 01:14:31 Ok, i didn’t. 01:14:37 blah ok 01:14:46 elliott, don't make fun of my luxembourgish heritage :( 01:14:53 I think elliott was using spaces and I was doing this 01:15:11 i'm literally having to clear my terminal so i don't highlight things because i hate seeing spoilers for anything 01:15:19 imo torture 01:15:25 spoiler: we are talking 01:15:29 !!!!!!!!!!! 01:15:32 how DARE you 01:15:35 :3 01:15:37 elliott, moby dick dies 01:15:53 elliott: (just to be fair I'm not actually posting any spoilers) 01:15:55 (it's a joke) 01:15:58 fuck 01:16:01 sorry ._. 01:16:02 now my mockery 01:16:04 seems stupid 01:16:07 because it was just repetition instead 01:16:11 Fiora i'm going to have to arrest you 01:16:19 * Fiora hides under a blanket 01:16:20 for crimes against humanity 01:16:24 you can't see me you can't arrest meeeee 01:16:31 ok i admit 01:16:44 that the legal system has yet to find a way to deal with such new forms of jail avoidance 01:16:59 but when we do you are getting locked up 01:17:09 more importantly: Fiora lives on an island, we all know what elliott's like with those 01:17:11 In spoilerjail? 01:17:23 where does fiora live again 01:17:24 `? fiora 01:17:27 Fiora is from some island somewhere. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons. 01:17:32 ah, some island somewhere 01:17:38 it's nice in the summer 01:17:45 also the fall, though not the winter 01:17:50 ok at best in the spring 01:17:51 wait, what @_@ 01:17:54 um, can we get a better definition 01:18:16 i agree, we should make it more specific 01:18:19 is it guam 01:18:19 have you seen... anyone else's definitions 01:18:31 well except elliott's, his is biased 01:18:40 `run cat "Fiora is from some island south of that other place with the cats. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons." > wisdom/fiora 01:18:42 i didn't actually write mine 01:18:45 cat: Fiora is from some island south of that other place with the cats. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons.: No such file or directory 01:18:47 that's the best thing about it 01:18:49 wow good job me 01:18:51 from another place thing 01:18:52 Bike: hi have you heard of echo 01:18:52 i am a unix master 01:18:55 "Shoujo, JRPG, strategy, and otome game fangirl. Extended exposure may necessitate insulin. Engages Nitya^H^H^H^H^HBike, her putative genderswap, in jargony conversations of doom." 01:19:07 fiora that seems entirely too helpful 01:19:08 entries aren't allowed to be accurate Fiora 01:19:08 observe: 01:19:11 `? bike 01:19:14 Bike is from Luxembourg. 01:19:18 :< 01:19:20 elliott, what about mine... 01:19:27 The specificity in my location means it can't be about anything else. 01:19:28 if you can falsify it from somewhere between a bit to all of it then we could use it 01:19:44 `? Phantom_Hoover 01:19:46 Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist. 01:19:51 How about, "Extended exposure my necessitate BZ" 01:19:53 may* 01:19:56 BZ? 01:19:57 Phantom_Hoover: well there are no true scotsmen 01:20:23 Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate has been referred to in the media as "zombie gas' 01:21:10 what do you expect from the media 01:21:10 so has anyone used it recreationally yet 01:22:18 Bike: what's it like in luxembourg by the way 01:22:28 adequate 01:22:39 `? luxembourg 01:22:42 luxembourg? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:22:44 `learn Luxembourg is adequate. 01:22:51 I knew that. 01:22:52 all in a day's work 01:23:13 Fiora: also you should use ^W instead of ^H, it's the wave of the future. 01:24:01 "Shoujo, JRPG, strategy, and otome game fangirl. Putative genderswap of Bike. Extended exposure may necessitate insulin (and possibly x86 assembly manuals). Is actually a human/cat hybrid." 01:24:33 * Fiora not very good at this 01:24:51 `learn Fiora not very good at this 01:24:56 I knew that. 01:25:28 `learn Fiora is a stack of assembly manuals done up in shoujo makeup. 01:25:29 ~_~ 01:25:35 that is not truueueeeee 01:25:36 I knew that. 01:26:02 Well, yeah, I figure I should suppress knowledge of your true nature as queen of the dragons. 01:26:08 have we found any true information in the wisdom db yet 01:26:19 `learn Fiora has no adequate wisdom entry 01:26:19 `? itidus21 01:26:24 itidus21 just made some instant coffee. 01:26:27 I knew that. 01:26:32 he only just made it in the past though 01:26:40 hm 01:26:46 `? oerjan 01:26:48 Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian. 01:26:57 that one seems mostly accurate I guess 01:27:03 `? ais523 01:27:06 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 01:27:12 `forget Fiora 01:27:13 i remember `? elliott being accurate last i checked 01:27:15 Forget what? 01:27:18 finally a 100% true wisdom db entry 01:27:51 fiora, well, you've just gotta make it funny. 01:27:58 and otome games are way too serious to joke about. 01:29:00 is this some esoteric "nerd culture" thing 01:29:11 let's say yes 01:29:33 talk about how I'm actually a magical girl cat princess who stalks the streets at night to defeat evildoers with the power of love and SSE 01:29:36 worse - the animes 01:30:03 fanfiction is also too serious fiora 01:30:03 yeah that sounds pretty "nerd culture" to me 01:30:32 monqy, stop saying that when kmc's online 01:31:16 Bike: homestuck shipping is totally serious 01:31:20 freakin' vriskapolagists 01:31:35 Phantom_Hoover: which part 01:31:52 `learn Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist. 01:31:57 I knew that. 01:32:04 biiiike 01:32:09 vriskapologists? 01:32:12 is that a sgeo thing 01:32:19 do you hate vriska 01:32:47 no she's one of my favorite characters <.< 01:32:53 I was making a joke about a dumb drama thing 01:33:02 see? freakin' vriskaapologist. 01:33:07 biiiiikeeeeeee 01:33:22 hm, dumb drama things . . . 01:33:53 monqy your ellipsis is falling apart 01:33:59 it needs a doctor 01:34:08 woops… 01:34:36 much better 01:35:30 i'm going to assume that drawing out my name is some kind of gesture of affection and approval of my fiorology 01:36:08 fiorology? @_@ 01:36:32 formal study of fioro 01:36:55 fiorology n. (1) the study of Fioras (2) the study of fioro (3) nickname for Idi Amin 01:37:35 ah, you must have been using (3) there 01:37:59 who's hosing whom down with BZ now 01:38:03 um. what are you trying to study about me 01:39:07 Wisdom, dera. 01:39:10 Dear. 01:39:12 why you're associated with idi amin 01:39:16 erda 01:40:14 read, dare, rade 01:40:38 * Fiora goes to walk home 01:41:15 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:41:52 Phantom_Hoover, is Chrighton assuming that these replicant things are dumb? 01:42:03 Then again, they are... why reveal that they could do what they did 01:42:44 i only barely remember the start of season 1 01:45:14 are you a replican or a replicant 01:45:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:46:08 repuplicant 01:47:47 wtf the video restarted to the beginning 01:48:29 Phantom_Hoover: why are you always complaining about me complaining about things 01:48:29 did you put it on "loop" 01:51:00 kmc, because you're always complaining about things 01:59:27 maybe i'll start complaining about how you're always complaining about me complaining about things 01:59:47 and then start complaining about how that's a cheap, trite form of meta-humor 02:00:25 i'm sorry this whole conversation has become obnoxiously meta 02:01:00 can we not do the thing where we attempt to gain the upper hand by standing on each other's feet 02:01:28 Now kiss! 02:01:50 that is the natural consequence of the overall tactic, yes 02:03:12 i don't kiss people who i've never seen in person 02:03:30 well it's a ghost hoover 02:03:34 you pretty much know what you're getting 02:03:41 also a gay vampire 02:03:59 Casper The Homosexual Friendly Ghost? 02:04:26 (that's a wesley willis song folks) 02:04:28 2 out of 4 is... average, i guess 02:04:40 2 whats out of 4 whats 02:04:52 kmc's #esoteric cultural enrichment program 02:05:02 2 of the 4 central properties of hoover 02:05:05 cultural revolution more like 02:06:03 Oooh do we have any statues, I want to destroy a statue. 02:06:09 hey guys remember when idi amin was the topic for like three minutes 02:06:10 I bet elliott's a statue. 02:06:13 which hoover we talking about? phantom? herbert? j. edgar? the guy who invented the vacuum cleaner who wasn't actually named hoover? 02:06:34 i just remembered you should totally click this and read it http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2002/jun/11/features11.g21 02:06:39 if we're talking about people i don't want to kiss i'm going to have to go with j. 02:06:56 in which a respected british journalist says "guys i got the chance to shoot that guy and i didn't, sorry, i fucked up" 02:07:00 what the fuck 02:07:01 kmc, w.d. 'boss' hoover was the hoover guy 02:07:14 it is the best article 02:07:29 bravado failed him 02:08:25 heh 02:08:31 what an article, yikes 02:08:44 i too have failed to follow through on various fantasies of killing my fellow passengers while traveling in various conveyances 02:08:46 literally a paragraph about killing a guy 02:09:10 i mean it would almost make sense as a lead in to a longer article about amin? but nope just yeah i coulda shot that guy 02:09:12 not killing a guy 02:09:20 Bike, maybe it was a letter 02:09:28 i was going to start an ethics discussion about murdering an evil dictator in cold blood, but then I remembered that was an episode of House and it wasn't very good 02:10:38 i think the house episode may have been inspired by that possibly 02:10:44 can we talk about compiling a list of historical hoovers 02:10:54 historical hoovers 02:10:57 and the difficulties thereof 02:11:05 if you were locked in an elevator with idi amin, jon snow, and simon peyton jones, who would you fuck, who would you kill, and who would you marry? 02:11:15 good question 02:11:51 fun fact: the closest thing to a prominent female hoover is miss hoover from the simpsons 02:12:13 do i have to do all 3 of those to get out of the elevator 02:12:19 do i get out of the elevator at all 02:12:22 can i kill myself 02:12:44 suicide is not the answer monqy 02:12:45 if they're all in the elevator forever they're pretty much dead anyway 02:12:53 unless the question is "what is killing yourself called" 02:12:57 You have to do all three, in order, without leaving the elevator. After accomplishing all three you will be released. 02:13:14 will the two you didn't kill be released 02:13:24 are you allowed to select the same person for two of them 02:13:26 well you're married to one of them now 02:13:30 can i do all 3 to the same person 02:13:30 imprisoned forever 02:13:34 it could be a tragically short marraige 02:13:35 Yes. 02:13:35 can i do all 3 to myself??? 02:13:38 instant divorce 02:13:39 No. 02:14:01 is the elevator a valid option for any of the three 02:15:04 who's jon snow 02:15:18 the channel 4 news guy 02:15:41 sadly finding videos of him on youtube is difficult 02:15:52 channel 4... oh, you mean in Britain where there are only 4 channels and one is literally named "Channel 4" 02:15:54 kmc: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jon+snow&hl=en&safe=off&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=nDBBUczLO-yX0QWTr4HABQ&ved=0CFsQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=996 02:15:59 kmc: hint: it's NOT most of these 02:16:04 helping 02:16:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WUSV6DRH5w 02:16:17 kmc: there are actually 5 channels 02:16:19 illustrative example 02:16:20 the fifth one is named Channel 5 02:16:24 elliott, no there aren't 02:16:36 Phantom_Hoover: we have to face the harsh reality 02:16:42 channel 5 won't go away no matter how much we want it to 02:16:43 we didn't have channel 5 when i were a lad and i'm perfectly happy to leave it that way 02:16:46 elliott: i cannot watch your video due to a sudden case of Shockwave Flash Crashingitis 02:16:53 thank god it's Phantom_Hoover's video then 02:17:07 wait i see an opportunity for unwarranted smugness 02:17:12 what's channel 5 02:17:15 um don't you have the html5 player enabled :) 02:17:19 um don't you use youtube-dl :) 02:17:28 monqy: it's the fifth channel 02:17:34 it's like Vorpal is still with us 02:17:36 the one you get to by pressing 5 on your remote, if you tuned your tv correctly 02:17:55 Phantom_Hoover: that accident in which he died by fucking, marrying, and then killing an elevator was so tragic :( 02:18:31 we still have his scsi port to remember him by, though 02:18:33 monqy: also it comes after channel 4 02:18:33 i thought it was fuck, then kill, then marry 02:18:40 is doing it out of order why he died 02:18:43 well we can never be sure 02:18:54 both his and the elevator's corpse were too mangled to tell :( 02:19:12 ok i feel the need to give an impromptu lesson about our tv channels 02:19:21 the first channel (1) is BBC1 02:19:33 ok i think i found channel 5 02:19:35 the second channel (2) is BBC2, it's like BBC1 with slightly higher standards 02:19:47 the third channel (3) is ITV1, it's not terribly good 02:20:00 the fourth channel (4) is Channel 4 and it's pretty cool 02:20:06 the fifth channel (5) is Channel 5 and we don't like to talk about it 02:20:15 BBC1 and BBC2 don't have any adverts because of communism 02:20:17 the rest do 02:20:27 um 02:20:29 Phantom_Hoover: did i forget anything 02:20:35 hey isn't ITV1 called something wacky in scotland 02:20:43 and doesn't 4 have like a different schedule or something 02:20:52 channel 5 mostly lives off the scraps of programmes the better channels cast off and the fungus that grows on parts of its body 02:20:53 5 looks like where they run their uhh 02:21:04 Phantom_Hoover: also bad US shows!! 02:21:07 csi, men in black 2, more csi 02:21:13 oh Peep Show is on Channel 4 02:21:14 elliott, it's called stv in scotland (and utv in ni) 02:21:16 are you looking at uk tv listings monqy 02:21:16 celebrity big brother 02:21:18 my opinion of Channel 4 instantly exists 02:21:24 i don't think it's called wtv in wales because who cares 02:21:35 kmc: channel 4 is the ~edgy~ channel of the five channels that exist 02:21:35 elliott: not quite 02:21:41 kmc, channel 4 did a bunch of good comedy series 02:21:53 monqy: are you looking at the channel five website 02:22:03 all of linehan's work, darkplace, spaced, i think brass eye and jam 02:22:03 oh let me tell you more things about channel 5 02:22:08 For kids programme's starting at 6 am they have Milkshake! showing Thomas and Friends, The Beeps,The WotWots, Peppa Pig, Castle Farm, Little Princess, Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom, The Mr. Men Show, Noddy in Toyland, Fifi and the Flowertots, Roary the Racing Car, Bert and Ernie and Bananas in Pyjamas. 02:22:17 which i suspect you might not believe -- monqy: i used to watch that when i was real young -- 02:22:25 (whether jam is a good comedy series is a matter of some debate) 02:22:36 ok so 02:22:44 when channel 5 first started existing in 1997 it was called channel 5 02:22:48 Spaced is OK, Brass Eye I hear is good, the others I don't know 02:22:53 then they renamed it to "five" 02:22:55 elliott 02:23:05 then a rich guy bought it out 02:23:07 kmc just called Spaced ok 02:23:13 and decided "five" was a stupi dname 02:23:16 and renamed it back to "Channel 5" 02:23:19 Shake! made a return to the channel on 4 October 2009 every Sunday morning after agreeing a deal with Disney. The block features Hannah Montana, Wizards of Waverly Place and Snobs. It also saw the return of Channel 5's hit teen show The Tribe. 02:23:24 hit teen show 02:23:28 it has literally gone through two renamings without getting more descriptive than the fifth number 02:23:34 i've been watching An Idiot Abroad... that's on Sky1 in HD (pronounced haitch-dee of course) 02:23:47 The Tribe is a New Zealand/British post-apocalyptic fictional TV series primarily aimed at teenagers. It is set in a near-future in which all adults have been wiped out by a deadly virus, leaving the children of the world to fend for themselves. 02:23:51 kmc: sorry but the channels on sky don't 'actually' 'exist' 02:23:54 they're not strictly television, they're 'sky' 02:23:56 uh elliott 5 is the sixth number 02:24:01 oops 02:24:09 it's the influence of those goddamn mathematicians i swear 02:24:17 wait 02:24:21 how do you know what order i was using checkmate?? 02:24:25 kmc, (also jam is a deeply disturbing surrealist thing chris morris did) 02:24:26 -_- 02:24:31 Series 4 begins just as the Technos are starting their invasion. They possess advanced technology and the Mall Rats are helpless against them. 02:24:44 In Series 5, Mega becomes the new leader of the Technos. He has plans to take over the City and is helped by Java, who manipulates Ebony's mind with virtual reality. Ebony, believing Zoot has come back, with her sisters, Java and Siva, create a new Tribe, the Zootists, and take control of the outside of the City. 02:24:47 kmc: btw i think spaced was a bit better than ok if i remember correctly, by the way Phantom_Hoover would kill me if i didn't say this 02:24:51 kmc: jon snow wrote the shooting amin article 02:24:53 (i don't know how to describe it any better beyond the fact that i mostly just found it relaxing, which is itself fairly disturbing) 02:25:00 elliott i dont see how any channel with this on it could be bad 02:25:07 elliott: ok we can 'agree to disagree' 02:25:13 also i haven't seen that many eps. so maybe it gets better 02:25:23 or is just one of those things that magically becomes hilarious after you've seen a lot of it 02:25:24 kmc: uh haven't you ever heard of aumann's agreement theorem 02:25:27 without getting better at any point 02:25:29 like jerkcity 02:25:34 i think the essential problem is that you're not british 02:25:35 no 02:25:37 try fixing that 02:25:40 hm 02:26:07 Ved starts a relationship with Mall Rat Cloe but when she tells him she is pregnant, he immediately dumps her. 02:26:09 that said 02:26:16 realistic teen drama man 02:26:21 i'm ok with calling spaced shit because thingy whats his name is now in that new star trek film which has 02:26:22 this s*** is relatable 02:26:24 the stupidest 02:26:24 name 02:26:25 of all time 02:26:28 fucking 02:26:28 all rat cloe 02:26:35 is it stupider than Mall Rat Cloe 02:26:49 kmc, i think if you didn't find the first 2 episodes funny you probably won't like the rest 02:26:49 guys its literally called "star trek into darkness" they,re using trek as a VERB 02:26:56 you don't know how much this makes me suffer 02:27:03 but what are they using 'star' as... 02:27:11 Adverb. 02:27:12 Cloe becomes addicted to reality space and whilst playing the game, vanishes. Ved is distraught as he actually loved her. 02:27:15 i like Peep Show and TM&WL and Spaced and TToI and Extras and An Idiot Abroad and most of the other things Gervais and Merchant have done, but I don't like the UK version of The Office which I'm told means I don't "get" British comedy 02:27:19 to boldly trek where none had trekked before 02:27:21 is 'trek' imperative? 02:27:28 Probably. 02:27:31 are they ordering a star to trek into darkness 02:27:37 possibly to illuminate its contents 02:27:42 No, that would be "Star, Trek Into Darkness". 02:27:43 hmm wait 02:27:46 ok maybe i like the title because 02:27:53 Star is definitely an adverb. 02:27:54 there's going to be a really forced moment where they try to get the title into dialogue 02:27:56 alternately: it's an allegory for what they're doing to cumberbatch and pegg 02:27:56 Start Rekin To Darkness 02:27:58 and it'll be so bad 02:28:00 and it'll all be worth it 02:28:26 "this journey you're taking, to a place that's so dark... are you guys on some kind of... star trek... into darkness???? [beat]" 02:28:28 elliott: shit, man, i'm a natural born killer 02:28:55 also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ViTp9uur8 02:29:05 monqy: btw what show is this 02:29:06 Everyone thinks that Bray is the father of Trudy's baby; however, Bray's brother, Zoot, is the father. 02:29:26 elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tribe_(TV_series) i found it from the channel 5 programming article 02:29:39 elliott: Shake! made a return to the channel on 4 October 2009 every Sunday morning after agreeing a deal with Disney. The block features Hannah Montana, Wizards of Waverly Place and Snobs. It also saw the return of Channel 5's hit teen show The Tribe. 02:29:43 elliott, do you remember shitty children's dramas 02:29:47 hit teen show!!!!! 02:30:03 Phantom_Hoover: sort of kind of 02:30:07 be more specific and it might become a yes 02:30:31 In 1998, the channel began to show more risqué late-night programmes such as Compromising Situations, Hotline and the controversially explicit Sex and Shopping. In 1999, there was a large increase in adult entertainment shown on the channel, including UK Raw and Red Shoe Diaries, giving the channel a reputation for being home to hours of pornography. 02:30:37 thank you channel 5 02:30:57 Adult entertainment, live football, and the 21:00 films were the main source of viewing for the channel, causing then-director of programming Dawn Airey to stress that Channel 5 was about "more than just films, football and fucking!", though this quote is still often misquoted as a description of the channel's programming strategy rather than as a denial of that strategy. 02:31:04 i see why you say channel 5 is bad now 02:31:22 'Sex and Shopping' 02:31:24 what is this show about 02:31:27 i mean besides the obvious 02:31:39 Sex and Shopping was a documentary series on the global sex industry. The series examines contemporary attitudes concerning commercial sex, censorship and experimentation. 02:31:52 sex shopping, i guess 02:31:52 ah well 02:31:57 that's a lot more highbrow than I was expecting 02:32:02 i'd prefer a show that's just like half about sex, half about shopping 02:32:03 bit of a bait and switch really 02:32:05 no relation between the two 02:32:11 except the same people 02:32:16 haha 02:32:24 The channel attracted some controversy for its reality series The Farm in 2004 and 2005.[42] The show, which revolved around celebrities working on a farm, saw Rebecca Loos masturbating a pig in order to collect semen. 02:32:29 captures the core sex/shopping demogrpahic 02:32:44 british tv sounds pretty awesome, not gonna lie 02:32:51 monqy: not to be confused with the ill fated Dwight-centric 2013 spinoff of The Office (US), also titled The Farm 02:32:54 (srsly) 02:33:06 yikes 02:33:14 also The level of adult entertainment was scaled back, and reality shows such as Naked Jungle and The Mole proved popular. However, other reality shows such as Touch the Truck and Jailbreak were less successful. 02:33:17 "In October 2004, she appeared on the reality television programme The Farm, a Channel 5 version of the RTE show Celebrity Farm, in the course of which she masturbated a boar to collect its semen.[10] The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals accused producers of pandering to a morbid and sordid fascination with farm animals while PETA and Mediawatch-uk demanded the show be taken off the air." 02:33:17 FarmSpace 02:33:24 im really curious about what touch the truck is about 02:33:26 the worst thing about british tv is that bbc don't have adverts 02:33:29 like 02:33:35 you get taxed, right? 02:33:38 no 02:33:41 it does if you watch via Hulu :) 02:33:42 well yes it's a tv license thing 02:33:43 but 02:33:45 you have to pay a tv licence 02:33:45 fuckin' socialist 02:33:47 s 02:33:52 the hamlet (starring doctor who as hamlet) they did recently 02:33:53 was like 02:33:55 four hours 02:33:59 by recently i mean years ago btw 02:34:08 what, like, brannagh's? 02:34:14 you are not peeing during hamlet 02:34:17 the bbc will not allow it to happen 02:34:26 however the attitude of the tv licensing agency is 'you have a tv and if you aren't paying you're probably hiding one' 02:34:28 the irony being that the original play has an intermission doesn't it 02:34:36 yes i was hoping there would be an intermission 02:34:37 there was not 02:34:42 good job bbc 02:34:42 i got a letter about it, it was amazing 02:34:43 Bike: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1449175/ this one 02:34:49 way to piss on shakespeare 02:35:03 Touch the Truck was a British Channel 5 endurance gameshow which aired in 2001. 02:35:06 It was hosted by Dale Winton[1] and involved a group of 20 contestants holding onto a truck with the last person left touching the truck winning it. 02:35:11 you can't watch live feeds from the iplayer, but you /can/ watch tv if it's on a device without an antenna or mains power 02:35:25 what the hell is "Modern" about it 02:35:27 oh, that last part is also only if your parents have a tv licence 02:35:28 also featured in that hamlet: david tennant saying "did you think i meant country matters" in the most explicit way he can think of 02:35:32 Jerry Middleton, 39, from Winchester, Hampshire, was the winner who managed to stay awake touching the vehicle for 81 hours 43 minutes and 31 seconds. 02:35:41 elliott: failing to bring a pee bucket to Hamlet is a noob mistake 02:35:47 it was like COUNT......rrry matters 02:36:11 Bike: it was modern because it had cctv cameras and a gun 02:36:40 that show should have been called Don't Not Touch The Truck 02:36:44 i think my favorite hamlet adaptations are the modern ones 02:36:52 there was one where Osric was played by a fax machine 02:36:55 monqy: wow i just looked at those lines 02:37:05 Boring spammer etc http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JohannaGE 02:37:11 yeah i've been sitting here laughing at monqy's quotes for like twenty minutes now 02:37:11 also when you say "starring doctor who as hamlet" I assume you mean that the BBC did a serious 4 hour adaptation of Hamlet but then at the end when Hamlet dies (spoiler) he gets up and is like "welp, I'm a time lord" and flies off 02:37:14 help 02:37:16 Phantom_Hoover: is it just me or is david tennant totally doomed 02:37:16 A 2001 movie, The Safety of Objects recounts what seems to be exactly a "Touch the Truck" show -- which even relates to the plot. The film chronicles a mother's mental voyage from the losing of his firstborn son to coma till the detachment from him ending in his mercy killing. And the show connects to this as the sleep withdrawn, delirious mother realizes that she'd still have her son if they 02:37:22 hadn't had a car -- and abruptly leaves hold of the truck. 02:37:22 like there is literally nothing he can do 02:37:26 that won't look like the doctor 02:37:43 are you just trying to satisfy your desire to see all scotsmen fail in life 02:37:46 well doctor who could be in any time 02:37:59 yeah exactly 02:38:06 think this through, elliott 02:38:14 BADGE PROGRESS: 02:38:14 Long Term Relationship 02:38:14 “Have sex with a single pony one thousand times.” 02:38:14 1/1,000 02:38:16 maybe dr who was shakespeare 02:38:27 [beaton comic] 02:38:31 tswett: deep 02:38:32 tswett: not the girl scouts I signed up for 02:38:54 have you guys seen that film "romeo + juliet" 02:38:56 it's kind of ridiculous 02:39:04 which one is that 02:39:07 (SPEAKING OF MODERNISED SHAKESPEARE ADAPTATIONS THAT STILL USE THE ORIGINAL DIALOGUE,) 02:39:10 oh is it the beach one 02:39:14 monqy: its the one with leonardo dicapriorefjo 02:39:16 Romeo Plus Juliet? 02:39:29 i dont know who that is 02:39:29 i have watched that film so many fucking times 02:39:32 its that guy 02:39:37 who,s in them films 02:39:41 i have spent so many fucking years of my life covering that play 02:39:44 romeo + juliet is great sorry 02:39:52 DRAW YOUR SWORD *pulls out a gun, of the Sword brand* 02:39:54 they shoot guns made by "sword" 02:39:54 yes 02:40:00 it's like, jesus 02:40:02 can you just use swords 02:40:03 also mercutio 02:40:05 it'll be less embarrassing for both of us 02:40:09 the best costuming in film history right there 02:40:10 Bike: that is still like, the only moment I remember from that movie 02:40:10 also Exit Music (For A Film) 02:40:12 but i remember i saw some odd romanized romeo&juliet at school when i was like 11 and i looked away during the sex scene 02:40:13 and I cannot help but giggle 02:40:15 every time I think about it 02:40:17 there was a sex scene right 02:40:18 Fiora: that's because it's amazing 02:40:31 monqy: romanised?????? 02:40:31 i remember there was another older romeo&juliet and it had a sex scene too 02:40:33 monqy: well they could hardly sell it if it didn't have sex 02:40:34 um 02:40:36 modernized 02:40:42 romeo & juliet adapted to be set in roman times 02:40:43 without sex it's like, a bunch of teenagers killing themselves for stupid reasons 02:40:44 we hope your rules and wisdom choke you 02:40:56 who wants to watch that? who's ever made thirty television shows about that 02:40:57 oh wait maybe the other one didnt have a sex scene it just had a breast shot 02:41:06 a bunch of teenagers killing themselves for stupid reasons --> isn't that like every horror movie 02:41:29 god dammit what was the other stupid thing about romeo + juliet 02:41:31 that i've forgotten 02:41:34 to wikipedia.......... 02:41:34 romeo and juliet and the slasher, let's do it 02:41:38 monqy, probably that was the zefirelli version 02:41:40 romeo and juliet and zomibes 02:41:43 prolly been done 3 years ago 02:41:46 we watched about 3 seconds of it 02:41:51 in english class 02:41:58 wasn't the juliet actor in the zeifjeifjeirjleli version like 13 or something 02:42:12 she's 13 in the play! 02:42:14 or 14 02:42:15 then the teacher turned it off and was all like oh we don't want to watch that it's all stuffy let's watch the cool baz luhrman version instead 02:42:17 young 02:42:18 there are soooooo many romeo and juliets how will i ever find the one i want 02:42:19 elliott, 16 02:42:26 and romeo is like 27 or something 02:42:30 Bike: well yes 02:42:33 totally normal 02:42:35 "The Chief of Police, Captain Prince" 02:42:40 yes 02:42:42 ok that may or may not have been the stupid thing i was trying to remember 02:42:44 but it's definitely really stupid 02:43:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:43:13 wow theyre making another romeo and juliet in 2013 02:43:15 whyyyyyyyyyyyYYYYYYYYYYYY 02:43:36 Oh Wikipedia mentions Romeo + Juliet as being "MTV inspired". 02:43:40 How can you not love this, elliott. 02:43:54 HIV inspired 02:44:13 i think the 2 i saw were zeffrely and romeo + juliet ye 02:44:23 monqy: you know this guy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/LeonardoDiCaprioNov08.jpg thats the guy, whose in the films 02:44:32 elliott: its been like years man 02:44:38 i cant remember a THING 02:44:41 ooh i might remember uhh 02:44:42 uhh 02:44:48 i think shakespeare is best enjoyed as ridiculous personally 02:44:49 gosh i forget the character;s name 02:44:50 he was in titanic too 02:44:59 what a bad film 02:45:00 like "Much Ado About Nothing", is like three different puns about vaginas, in just the title 02:45:14 and Midsummer Night's Dream is just well, have you seen that shit 02:45:35 wait i bet there is a youtube of david tennant saying country matters 02:45:36 lets find out 02:45:50 except my browser is frozen because my computer is only marginally better than the fabled dumpster computer 02:46:58 well there is a video of the entire thing 02:47:14 the whole four hour movie? 02:47:20 apparently so 02:47:21 Bike: makes me wonder which bits of vulgar popular entertainment from today will be held up in 400 years as High Art 02:47:34 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF7E1185D25603E4C 02:47:35 enjoy 02:47:40 what is this 02:47:48 i'm thinking Jackass 02:47:53 I love God and thats all that truly matters. 02:47:53 |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|Put 02:47:53 |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|this 02:47:53 |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|on 02:47:53 |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|your 02:47:55 |* * * * * * * * * *|---------------|profile 02:47:56 it's all about post-cold-war politics, when you get down to it 02:47:58 |------------------------------------|if 02:48:00 |------------------------------------|you 02:48:03 |------------------------------------|are a 02:48:05 |------------------------------------|proud 02:48:08 |------------------------------------|American! 02:48:10 P.S. PLEASE don't cuss on my page. It just makes you sound like unoriginal idiot who can't find a better way to phrase whatever you want to say. Thanks!! ^-^ 02:48:13 less 02:48:19 thx, elliott. 02:48:36 Bike: yeah they will not believe we were that stupid and will instead over-parse it as sophisticated satire 02:48:55 elliott: a true patriot would use Unicode line-drawing characters 02:49:05 i've never seen Jackass but maybe i've heard a thing about it and then forgotten that thing 02:49:06 the best part about old stupid shit held up as art is that it usually was satire 02:49:13 just satire in the form of like being farted on 02:49:23 also that flag has only 9 stripes 02:49:37 the stars are in totally the wrong pattern, too. 02:49:42 oh right 02:49:46 i forgot to mention picard is the dude 02:49:47 the king guy 02:49:54 sorry, georgia, maryland, rhode island, and south carolina 02:49:55 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/US_flag_33_stars.svg speaking of which, this is the first result for "american flag" 02:49:56 its doctor who vs captain picard: the shakespeare performance 02:50:12 haha 02:50:17 look forward to seeing that in a news broadcast 02:50:20 brannagh's adaptation had Robin Williams as Osric 02:50:22 nevar forget 02:50:22 i really would have preferred if it was hamlet in space 02:50:42 osric is a guy near the end with like two lines if this helps 02:50:58 ok i found it 02:51:00 elliott: 'but even before she can get her knickers on, I've seen everything. Yeah. I've seen it all. ' 02:51:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtYCXO-jAJg#t=4m57s 02:51:24 kmc: is that an art thing 02:51:30 uh 02:51:32 Yes. 02:51:37 god its even more blatant than i remembered 02:51:52 holy shit. 02:52:00 cunt. ry matters 02:52:06 wow 02:52:36 this is just ridiculous 02:52:49 its adult's goofing around 02:53:02 shaksper was brilliant for making this happen 02:53:05 anyway i'm going to go find a few sci-fi hamlet adaptations 02:53:25 preferably not like, the lion king, but we'll see 02:53:25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4twhFgogHVU quick search 02:53:49 are you calling the lion king scifi 02:54:00 It's post-apocalyptic. Think about it. 02:54:21 this hamlet in space adaptation is p.good 02:54:28 "He played up the Oedipal overtones of the play, to the extent of casting the 28-year-old Eileen Herlie as Hamlet's mother, opposite himself (aged 41) as Hamlet" hamlet adaptations are an art form 02:55:49 "Indeed, Gibson was cast after Zeffirelli watched his character contemplate suicide in the first Lethal Weapon film.[22]" 02:57:09 nice 02:57:18 Hamlet, or The Last Game Without MMORPG Features, shaders and Product Placement is an award winning indie adventure game based on William Shakespeare's Hamlet. It was developed by indie game developer mif2000. 02:57:31 Features 02:57:31 25 levels 02:57:31 In the tradition of classic adventure games 02:57:31 Boss battles 02:57:31 Logic puzzles 02:58:16 i would like to see an adaption of macbeth with dogs 02:58:18 it was pretty hard figuring out polonius's attack pattern.... 02:58:19 like cgi dogs maybe 02:59:00 playing poker 02:59:00 have you seen that 02:59:05 while we're on the subject of hamlet 02:59:07 oh let me find it 03:00:08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z9Ismh1elM 03:00:09 "Comics and graphic novels have utilised the play, or have dramatised the circumstances of its inception: Superman himself wrote the play for Shakespeare in the course of one night, in the 1947 Shakespeare's Ghost Writer." 03:00:23 ^^^ please watch 03:01:20 wow 03:01:42 i'm so glad monqy elected that guy to govern 03:02:13 beautiful 03:02:32 elliott: have you seen hercules in new york yet, or on that note gamebox 1.0 03:02:46 monqy: no :( 03:02:53 you should!! 03:02:56 monqy: can you come to england and bring these important cultural artefacts 03:03:04 in return you can watch channel 5 03:03:11 a good deal 03:03:55 elliott: omg that video 03:04:04 also wilhelm scream @ 0:56 03:04:12 i assume self consciously given what movie this is 03:04:23 see? deep satire. 03:04:28 Hercules in New York is a 1969 low-budget fantasy adventure film. It is notable for being the first feature film to star Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was about 22 years old when the film was produced. However, it is one of the films that Schwarzenegger admits regretting having appeared in. 03:04:33 well it's a joke inside another film (which i haven't seen) 03:04:45 "Charlie Colburn (Nate Richert) is a video game tester with a troubled past." 03:04:58 Bike: have you never seen them either??? gosh 03:05:13 theyre very good films 03:05:29 no, i saw existenz instead 03:05:51 omg that movie 03:05:59 kmc: I had 99¢ pizza! 03:06:05 As in Videodrome, Cronenberg gives his psychological statement about how humans react and interact with the technologies that surround them. In this case, the world of video games. 03:06:11 Also I mexande and other people. 03:06:13 shachaf: trip report plz 03:06:14 yeah it's great 03:06:25 it involves hiding firearms in a dog 03:06:28 * shachaf needs to go -- will report later. 03:06:54 guys i haven't seen barely any bad films at all 03:06:59 i feel like i'm really missing out 03:07:01 dang i should watch existenz 03:07:12 i love cronenberg no joke 03:07:26 i'm not sure if it's actually a good movie, but it's a nice mindfuck 03:07:32 especially if you are very stoned while watching it 03:07:53 though i like lynch more 03:08:00 especially since he's in that show about some comedian for some reason 03:08:38 Louie? 03:08:39 which show about some comedian 03:08:45 yeah, louie ck 03:08:57 yeah that was a kinda odd inside joke 03:08:57 lemme find it 03:09:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qob3FTPJ7cM 03:09:08 "we need a weird dude for this scene" "what if it's david lynch" 03:09:24 Louie is a good show 03:10:45 the arc with Lynch is a liiiiitle self-indulgant, but it has its moments 03:10:56 it's a lot more continuity than the show usually goes for 03:11:03 i should really watch some lynch stuff 03:11:05 i am terrible 03:11:14 elliott: i haven't seen it either 03:11:39 eraserhead is some fucked up shit, just so you know 03:11:47 recommend it to people you dislike, such as myself 03:11:57 i like fucked up shit 03:12:23 the last guy i convinced to watch it apparently sees me in nightmares now 03:12:42 i'm not down with his culty transcendental meditation stuff though, that's what we in the biz refer to as `wack' (technical term) 03:13:06 yeah i go for the "assume famous people are fucking crazy and don't pay attention to them" strategy generally speaking 03:13:51 eraserhead was hard for me to watch but overall i enjoyed it 03:14:08 also twin peaks is really good, def. my favorite anime 03:14:13 i have hangups about beck's scientology too. i don't care about travolta and i'm not sure why, i think he is just too wack to care about 03:14:18 i;ve never seen twin peaks :( :( i should 03:14:23 Bike: btw bikes are common everyday objects 03:14:28 its not surprising that they'd occur in dreams of all sorts 03:14:44 yeah that's the weird thing, he'd never dreamt about bikes before! but now he does 03:14:52 i think all i've seen of eraserhead is In Heaven 03:15:05 In Heaven is good 03:15:26 also i've seen the "fuck that shit, pabst blue ribbon" scene in blue velvet 03:15:30 and that's all the lynch i've seen i think 03:16:05 oh i've heard the twin peaks theme too. good theme. 03:16:14 but i didn't hear it with my eyes so it doesn't count 03:17:24 I think his short "Rabbits" is still on youtube 03:17:34 alt. his commercials. you've all seen his PS2 and cigarette commercials i hope. 03:18:54 oh i've seen some of that rabbits thing i think 03:19:14 on relisten in heaven sounds weirdly like the talking heads song to me 03:19:24 once in a lifetime 03:19:37 not that talking heads song 03:19:57 have you seen the music video for it? it works 03:20:01 i have 03:20:10 also it's the only one i can remember the name of reliably, so there, 03:20:26 i was thinking of this talking heads song [imagine there's a link here and my browser isn't frozen] 03:20:34 are you imagining 03:20:46 yes, but it's a link to Once in a Lifetime 03:20:51 no bike 03:20:54 no!!! 03:20:59 i think the only talking heads song ive heard is the one in that one lasagna cat video 03:21:01 that's not the link that's there 03:21:02 is it that one 03:21:16 monqy: which one is that again. i remember a talking heads song in lasanga cat but i cant remember which it was 03:21:26 oh hey my browser unfroze 03:21:30 eyes without a face i think??? i think that's what it's called?? 03:21:42 false alarm it's "waking up" 03:21:44 oh wait 03:21:47 thats billy idol 03:21:52 i got my artists confused 03:21:53 same thing really 03:22:13 im no good with this 03:22:37 ok let's try that again 03:22:51 i was thinking of this talking heads song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bKW7JkHKm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zNdMc6wGtU 03:22:59 you get two links for the price of one because of the delay 03:23:02 that's two songs 03:23:05 no it's the same song 03:23:06 twice 03:23:12 going to go out on a limb and suggest that the linking factor here is the word "heaven" 03:23:41 yeah this...doesn't really sound like in heaven at all 03:24:44 yes i don't know what i was thinking in retrospect 03:24:46 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IugOfDBWcGc lynch has done music somehow. it also doesn't sound like in heaven 03:24:52 is that from dark night of the soul 03:24:58 or the other thing he did 03:26:36 i think it's just a single 03:26:48 there's also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caWXt9lCVrc which i'm reasonably sure is satan 03:27:08 Crazy Clown Time 03:27:20 oh, uh, it has tits in it. 03:27:23 http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhfztj1cTy1qcziuco1_500.gif 03:27:43 monqy: while talking heads is in my scrollback i should tell you to watch david byrne interviewing himself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE-mxVxFXLg 03:28:41 everyone else should too 03:29:00 i just like to imagine david lynch giving the directions for this video 03:29:22 that clown video is uncomfortable to watch 03:29:30 elliott: that's great 03:30:13 wow, his... proportions 03:32:29 Bike: (that suit doesnt fit him) 03:32:35 hth 03:32:51 yes he explained 03:32:56 thank you mr bryne. 03:33:03 this interview is good 03:33:05 it's like 60 minutes on acid 03:34:06 that interview was good 03:38:07 apparently the 60 minutes on acid thing actually happened. i should lsiten to more heads 03:38:36 Bike: let david lynch sing you to sleep https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbtUAlFN8po 03:40:30 aren't you the one who needs to sleep, generaly speakkkking 03:41:10 well i don't hate myself so i wouldn't generally select david lynch for lullaby material 03:41:14 whereas i do hate you 03:41:21 do you see how the cogs turn Bike 03:41:47 :( :( :( 03:41:55 it's ok it's a nice kind of hate 03:42:40 what is a nice kind of hate 03:43:08 that's for me to know & you to find out 03:43:43 ._. 03:43:47 is it a sex thing 03:44:35 sources unconfirmed but suggest no 03:44:44 ._____. 03:45:16 there's no certainty in life, Bike 03:45:49 is there certainty in sex 03:46:17 what do they say to kids these days 03:47:27 what don't they say to kids these days. the answer is nothing 03:47:31 no limits. 03:47:40 that'd explain 03:47:40 uh 03:47:46 i'm sure it'd explain someone 03:56:47 -!- madbr has joined. 03:56:49 woot 03:58:10 my stupid VM based on a switch case can run about 250 million ops per second (in the brain dead case of loop: sub r0, r0, #1 jnz loop: ) 03:58:42 on a 2.8ghz core2, that's about 10 real cycles for a virtual cycle 03:58:54 sorry madbr we're all dead 03:58:56 especially Bike 04:02:39 and mkc 04:02:41 and also kmc 04:04:09 i want to say there was a rap song titled "ghost of a bicycle" 04:05:59 Bike: how did you become a bicycle 04:06:00 what's the story 04:07:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPn6nNOnWIM 04:13:17 huh clouddead are weirder than i was lead to believe. i should listen to them 04:13:25 yes 04:13:54 rifle eyes is good, it has urinals 04:15:00 * Sgeo suddenly wonders if elliott might consider him evil. Working for an ISP that takes some (not that strong) actions against piracy 04:15:10 (In the future, I mean, if I get the job) 04:15:15 you work for... oh 04:22:43 I hate everyone except the top commenter here http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1a7zuy/paul_ryan_admits_that_his_entire_budget_is_based/ 04:25:38 i've spent years working up the willpower to not click links when people say things like that 04:25:57 if its from reddit it's probably bad news 04:26:11 also if sgeo gives an opinion on it when he links it 04:32:24 also it's about paul ryan. 04:32:28 What if I give a positive opinion? (In general I mean, not this specific case) 04:32:47 No positive opinions on the internet. 04:32:51 @wn admit 04:32:53 *** "admit" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 04:32:53 admit 04:32:53 v 1: declare to be true or admit the existence or reality or 04:32:53 truth of; "He admitted his errors"; "She acknowledged that 04:32:53 she might have forgotten" [syn: {admit}, {acknowledge}] 04:32:55 [25 @more lines] 04:33:14 Maybe a bot should post the definition of admit whenever someone uses that word 04:33:23 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:33:35 what? 04:33:44 oh, the link 04:34:06 maybe the bot should stop being so pedantic! 04:34:17 maybe the bot should learn what "microsaccade" means 04:35:47 oh also: paul ryan is never going to be relevant again, right? 04:36:24 looks like hes relevant because were talking about hi min #esoteric thgeo 04:36:39 paul ryan sounds like a name i've heard but i try to avoid that sort of conversation. the type that mentions names like that. 04:37:16 :( 04:45:15 (: 04:45:28 whoa 04:45:36 =D D= 04:46:28 looks like a neverhood character 04:46:28 =3(@)E= 04:46:46 rather less like a neverhood character 04:48:04 my first thought was fish but on second thought that was a dumb thought 04:48:18 maybe a belt buckle? 04:48:34 or a sash...buckle.... 04:49:55 hi Bike 04:49:57 neverhood++ 04:50:23 hichaf 04:50:45 heegan 04:51:04 how goes 04:52:05 -!- Jafet has joined. 04:52:58 The 99¢ pizza tasted like pizza. 04:53:10 What, really? How? 05:09:12 There is at least one person on Reddit who argues that if you drive drunk and don't hit someone, it's a victimless crime. 05:09:21 http://np.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/1a18ae/dwi_lawswhy_i_became_a_libertarian/c8t9837 05:10:05 Why are you reading r/Libertarian? 05:11:22 It was linked to from a comment in an anti-libertarian subreddit. Which I was only reading because it was linked to from /r/PoliticalHumor 05:11:50 How deep does the rabbit hole go? 05:12:08 well somehow sgeo managed to find /r/PoliticalHumor 05:12:43 I don't remember how I found it, I subbed a while ago 05:13:14 look 05:13:20 there are all kinds of awful people on reddit 05:13:27 you should not be surprised nor do you need to tell us about them 05:13:32 you don't understand kmc. we have to know about each and every one of them 05:13:37 its sgeos curse, sgeos fate, sgeos undoing, sgeos promise to the world 05:13:58 somehow sgeo subbed to r/politicalhumor 05:14:01 somehow sgeo found reddit 05:14:09 So, this is boring, do any of you read the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy? 05:14:16 i have read some articles from it 05:14:26 is that the one with the webpages 05:14:30 it's kind of like wikipedia but with less pictures 05:14:33 you know the one 05:14:45 Yes. 05:14:49 i think it had an article on it that i glanced over? i forget what it was about 05:14:54 philosophy 05:15:17 It has lots of in-depth articles that are better than the ones Wikipedia doesn't have, such as on Church's type theory or the history of transfeminism. 05:15:17 also the pages are quite yellow 05:15:25 Also the pages are quite yellow. 05:15:37 monqy: constructivism ? 05:15:38 yes this is the one 05:16:04 shachaf: no idea 05:16:10 oh, i should read the constructivism articles 05:16:19 so i could see what the fuck is going through zeilberger's head, maybe 05:16:40 ultrafinitism isnt really the same thing as mainstream constructivism........ 05:16:54 That's why i said "articles", see 05:17:01 imo only numbers smaller than 3 exist 05:17:28 constructivism is just good old wanting Evidence™ for propositions 05:17:37 i dont understand ultrafinitism................philosophy is silly 05:17:38 so excluded middle is rejected because it doesn't provide evidence for either P or not P 05:17:55 and then that of course gets you computable meaning as your evidence (hence curry-howard) 05:17:57 oh ultrafinitism doesn't have an article :( 05:18:01 i understand constructivism thankfully 05:18:06 where lem roughly corresponds to being able to predict the future 05:18:17 (you can do it with call/cc but it lies) 05:18:21 yeah constructivism is "so easy", it's all kolmogorov-brouwer------- 05:18:32 constructivism is a monoids?? 05:18:32 probably more names 05:18:38 yes, heyting 05:18:42 who the fuck is heyting? i don't know. 05:18:44 i like how elliott predicted i would say that.. 05:18:55 it was pretty obvious 05:18:57 oh, a student of brouwer 05:19:06 tho you can think of ultrafinitism quite simply as rejecting the notion that the standard inductive definition of the naturals gives evidence that all of them exist 05:19:14 «The inclusion of Brouwer's name in the Brouwer–Heyting–Kolmogorov interpretation is largely honorific, as Brouwer was opposed in principle to the formalisation of certain intuitionistic principles (and went as far as calling Heyting's work a "sterile exercise")» amazing 05:19:25 (but accepting that e.g. 4 exists because it's pretty easy to give evidence that a number that small exists) 05:19:34 How do you give evidence that a number exists 05:19:45 by counting 05:19:49 like this: SSSS0 05:19:50 SSSS0 05:19:53 fuck you 05:19:55 "2 l8" 05:19:59 no i was first 05:20:03 yes 05:20:06 i was "2 l8" 05:20:09 agreed 05:20:12 How do you give evidence that 0 exists, or that S(a number) is a number. 05:20:22 oh shush 05:20:22 axioms 05:20:29 No, seriously, I want to know. 05:20:45 Like why not just say no numbers exist. 05:20:47 it doesnt really make sense to ask like 0 exists.... you define it as being a thing 05:21:01 its just a question of how much power you allow your definitions to have 05:21:13 oh so it's just a matter of my axioms are better than yours 05:21:31 or rather, yours are better than mine, because you are elliott 05:21:41 𒌫 05:21:43 lem? 05:21:46 this is silly 05:21:47 𐂄 05:22:14 btw this article on church's type theory has explicit substitution. therefore it sucks 05:22:23 it's not like "my axioms are better than yours" is inherently bad, i just want to know that that's what it is 05:22:36 monqy: do you agree that variables as strings / explicit alpha-conversion / and so on are sinful 05:22:41 yes 05:22:42 "You know what's a complete waste of time, money, and effort? Eating. I mean, wouldn't you rather just ingest a tasteless form of sustenance for the rest of your life and never have to go through that tedious rigmarole of opening and eating a premade sandwich or feasting on a pile of fried delicacies ever again? " 05:22:44 Bike: well it can also be about interpretations of axioms 05:22:50 and whether you consider certain axiom sets to define coherent notions 05:22:52 BHK right 05:23:07 I gather that the intended answer to that rhetorical question is supposed to be 'no', but... 05:23:09 sgeo: that's usually an argument for the usefulness of art no? 05:23:22 sgeo 05:23:22 dont 05:23:23 please 05:23:24 dont 05:23:39 One time I said I'd rather just eat monkey corpses since they'd be most nutritious 05:23:45 turns out I was wrong about monkey corpses though. 05:23:59 live monkeys are more nutritious 05:24:00 Cuneiform signs seem to be quite complicated. 𒋪 05:24:25 madbr, do you not know about my food issues? 05:24:36 I would happily answer the posed question with "Yes, please" 05:24:37 ah, no, didn't knew 05:24:54 Or, well, I guess I do like tasting things sometimes, but it's a bit of a chore 05:25:15 you have food issues? beyond being a bachelor i assume 05:25:18 I'm a bit the other way around :3 05:25:34 maybe sgeo is a bagelor 05:25:42 that's like a bachelor, except with bagels 05:26:34 One of the things SEP's article mentioning ultrafinitism ("ultra-finitism") cites about it is "Understanding the Infinite". that is the title 05:26:58 Bike, I don't really like eating 05:27:04 I tend to have to force myself to eat. 05:27:15 oh i know people like that 05:27:17 they're weird 05:27:25 jupiter and beyond the infinite 05:27:52 ultrafinitists don't believe in anything beyond jupiter kmc 05:27:57 haha 05:28:16 i don't even believe in england 05:28:56 sgeo have you considered liquid food 05:29:06 It's too bad there aren't enough ultrafinitists for there to be pissing matches about who believes in less numbers. Though I guess restricting numbers that exist to computable vs defineable vs whatever is like that. 05:29:16 then you can use a straw and it's less obtrusive. you can even use your hands while you suck it up 05:29:22 I used to rely on Ensure when I was a kid 05:29:31 I mean, I think I did eat solid food 05:29:35 But lunch was Ensure 05:29:36 http://www.theonion.com/video/new-wearable-feedbags-let-americans-eat-more-move,14238/ 05:29:46 numbers exist up to 2^32-1 05:30:17 imo 2^64-1 05:30:25 you know i read part of a bajillion page thesis once that argued in part that what computers deal with aren't semantically numbers because wraparound is some dumb bullshit 05:31:07 integers mod 2^32 are an ok algebraic structure aren't they 05:31:09 uhhhh numbers mod n are still numbers?? 05:31:10 ridiculous and also there are bignums 05:31:26 which can totally be implemented in practice 05:31:28 kmc: except for 2^32 not being prime, i guess. 05:31:35 it's... almost prime 05:31:46 it is like the opposite of prime it's made of twos 05:31:47 Maybe you have to pick a Mersenne prime for numbers mod 2^n to be good 05:31:47 it has only one prime factor 05:31:55 anyway i think i caricaturized the argument there 05:31:59 Hmm, that's not even 2^n. Never mind. 05:32:03 just, pretend i said something that sounded less dumb 05:32:04 bignums aren't really that big 05:32:14 Bike i expect all arguments on IRC to be presented in full nuance and detail 05:32:17 since you are limited by ram, which is guaranteed finite on pretty much every architecture 05:32:37 uh... is there an architecture where it's not 05:32:48 elliott: except you can interface with the HDD 05:32:56 the HDD being infinite 05:33:03 ram and beyond the infinite, i guess 05:33:09 and if that's not enough you can interface with the CLOUD 05:33:10 madbr: with finite addresses 05:33:10 :D 05:33:20 bignum addresses 05:33:29 also doing arithmetic on media sounds slow and painful 05:33:44 like i know they do it but. pain 05:34:08 at that point you should probably just switch to interpreting the states of your machine in a manner consistent with larger numbers 05:34:18 to save time 05:39:58 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:46:40 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:47:00 -!- Bike has joined. 05:57:37 Bike: we had a wonderful 20 seconds without you. 05:57:51 why must you cause me such pain 05:58:41 elliott: you missed a second 05:58:45 it was glorious 05:58:46 it's all i'm good at 05:59:01 ;_____; 05:59:15 thats so sad elliott 05:59:24 have you tried being good at other things? 06:00:07 yes but it's too hard :( 06:00:50 elliott: what year of school are you in again? 06:01:31 ??? 06:01:37 ????? 06:01:40 ??????????????????????????????? 06:01:54 don't be rude, monqy. 06:02:04 ??????????????????????????????????????? 06:05:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:05:34 -!- Vorpal has joined. 06:05:47 he's designing a new language 06:05:50 where font matters 06:06:01 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:07:40 who, me? 06:08:50 yes you 06:09:46 monqy is the ghost of chuck moore 06:09:50 nah i was just really confused 06:10:05 is the idea of elliott being in school confusing 06:10:06 still am but i've run out of steam you know 06:10:17 nah it's more that coppro would ask in the manner he did, or perhaps even at all 06:10:27 what if it was me asking 06:10:35 good question 06:10:44 hey elliott, what year of school you in? 06:10:51 i'd be really confused if it was me asking, since that's not a question i like to ask 06:10:52 its 2013 Bike 06:10:55 i have my reasons 06:10:56 hth 06:11:30 thx 06:12:08 i think i'll just assume that everybody in this channel is either slightly younger than me and in MENSA or slightly older than me and has three PhDs 06:12:38 that doesn't account for oerjan who is a lot older than you (this applies regardless of your age) 06:12:50 Q: is oerjan older than oerjan 06:12:59 he's just an outlier 06:12:59 And I don't think we have any actual MENSA members. 06:13:13 i don't think any of you have three PhDs either, but here we are 06:13:25 with me sitting here making assumptions about you and writing shachaf fanfiction 06:13:33 Sure, I *could*. But why would i want to? 06:14:07 get three PhDs? i don't know but it sounds like a hilariously bad decision 06:14:17 Join MENSA more-like. 06:14:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:14:26 oh. i have no idea. elitism? 06:14:30 i guess that's an idea. 06:14:51 But you're one of the ones slightly older than me, so you're ineligible. 06:15:05 How old are you? 06:15:25 20 and a bit 06:15:34 shachaf fanfiction? i'd read that 06:15:37 Alas. 06:15:42 hey oerjan we were just talking about how old you are 06:15:45 well actually i'd probably skim it and get bored 06:15:50 what, are you younger than me too 06:15:50 just like with most fanfiction 06:15:56 am i some kind of giant of ages here 06:16:02 Bike: I'm 22. 06:16:05 HA 06:16:08 knew it. 06:16:09 Nearly 23. 06:16:29 * oerjan shakes his cane at Bike 06:16:40 Bike: btw you're really old 06:16:43 practically dead i'd say 06:16:47 23? That's almost 25! 06:16:53 (disclaimer: i don't actually have a cane) 06:16:55 rip Bike 06:16:56 i can't even imagine being 20. back me up here monqy 06:16:57 And oerjan is older than the Sun. 06:17:07 being an adult sounds scary 06:17:08 practically rip i mean 06:17:11 i dont think it actually exists 06:17:13 So it goes. 06:17:16 monqy: it is. hth. 06:17:20 Suddenly I feel old 06:17:27 monqy: im going to be an adult in a few months :( 06:17:28 probably i'll die on my 18th birthday and only my soulless husk will cary on 06:17:29 monqy: The secret is, you never actually become an adult. 06:17:32 i don't know how to prepare 06:17:42 You just eventually realize that those kids are on *your* lawn! 06:17:43 rip bike. 06:17:45 thinking about giving up on life and becoming a hermit 06:17:51 And those punks should get off! 06:17:54 well i guess i already did that 06:18:09 elliott: I recommend against it. 06:18:13 god if this channel is full of shut in weirdos too i don't know what i'm going to do. probably nothing 06:18:22 pikhq: it worked for a few years 06:18:26 but angrily 06:18:28 * Sgeo was born in the 80s 06:18:38 Bike: is there some other channel also full of shut in weirdos. sounds literally impossible 06:18:54 EVERY CHANNEL is full of shut in weirdos 06:18:55 Bike: I'm arguably not a shut-in? 06:18:59 Arguably. 06:19:06 i'm starting to think irc isn't the best place to socialize with well-adjusted people! 06:19:31 I resemble that remark! 06:19:44 That's probably going to change at least a tiny bit once the antidepressants kick in though. 06:19:47 iirc i was well-adjusted once 06:19:51 `quote housemates 06:19:54 443) i try to be a hermit but it's hard with all these housemates. 06:19:57 but i kind of grew out of it 06:20:17 Also, I've never been well-adjusted and never will be. 06:20:22 i should probably find antidepressants that do something other than make me throw up but it's hard 06:21:03 what more could you want out of an antidepressant 06:21:08 Yay, disability. 06:21:16 well, not throwing up 06:21:21 or maybe throwing up like, candy 06:21:28 elliott: I dunno, increasing extracellular serotonin in the brain? 06:21:30 but then i'd get fat... 06:21:42 you could donate the candy to starving children 06:21:43 tough question, elliott. tough question. 06:21:44 Bike: No you wouldn't. That's calories lost! 06:22:01 fatten them up for other starving children??? 06:22:11 are you suggesting starving children eat each other monqy 06:22:13 because, I agree 06:22:24 well what do you do with the dead bodies 06:22:30 might as well nourish the others 06:22:34 * Fiora looks up. wow, I'm old 06:22:36 burn them for fuel to make antidepressants with probably 06:22:40 Soylent green is people, and also delicious. 06:22:42 Fiora: Oh? 06:22:46 Fiora: i don't know how old you are but i agree 06:23:03 fiora is in fact trans-pikhq in age 06:23:06 * kmc is also old 06:23:07 terrifying to contemplate 06:23:15 being an adult is something that sneaks up on you 06:23:27 for most people anyway 06:23:28 i think kmc is like half-way between me and fizzie or something 06:23:39 if your parents are murdered by ninjas and you have to get revenge, that's different 06:23:41 which is scary because I don't like the idea that there's a path between my age and fizzie's age 06:23:45 I'm not convinced that I'm an adult. 06:23:50 i turned 25 last month 06:24:04 kmc: that _does_ sound pretty sneaking up too, actually 06:24:09 have you got any grey hairs / wrinkles / heart diseases yet 06:24:34 But then I've spent much of the past few years barely plodding along, in some years practically being a hikikomori. 06:24:35 probably one grey hair somewhere 06:24:41 You're not gonna be adult-feeling doing that. 06:24:44 i think my heart is ok, trying to get in better shape though 06:24:44 pikhq: is that a nerd culture thing 06:24:51 i have a bald spot on my head! does that count? 06:24:58 monqy: Hikikomori? No. 06:25:02 my balls are very wrinkly but that's been the case for a long time 06:25:17 oerjan: does it have heart disease 06:25:28 elliott: not to my knowledge. 06:25:32 btw do you still look exactly like dijkstra 06:25:54 oh and i have some wrinkles under my eye. 06:25:54 hikikomori is the japanese word for "shut in", except they also pathologize it (more) 06:26:26 http://www.born-today.com/btpix/dijkstra_edsger.jpg picture of oerjan 06:26:27 *eyes, probably 06:26:56 that... is that actually dijkstra? 06:26:57 Bike: ah. so not quite but maybe tangentially related to nerds & their culture 06:27:00 he looks way too young 06:27:12 http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~ actual, but old picture. 06:27:15 monqy: well there's also the implication that you spend all your time watching animes 06:27:24 Bike: ah, that's the ticket 06:27:29 nearly 20 years old now, i think 06:27:52 logically, pikhq must be really into Puellae Maegie Maudoukau Maugiukau 06:28:02 i hear he's kind of a pedant about it 06:28:05 so: yes 06:28:14 oerjan: it's impossible to describe how wrong that camera is about your appearance 06:28:18 Bike: I did enjoy the series. 06:28:23 elliott: O KAY 06:28:27 guys tell me whether my link or oerjan's link looks more like oerjan 06:28:33 you know the answer 06:28:37 i dont know what oerjan looks likle 06:28:46 monqy: here's a pic http://www.born-today.com/btpix/dijkstra_edsger.jpg 06:28:49 And I'm psychotically pedantic at times. 06:28:50 i'll just put oerjan's pic through "in 20 years" 06:28:53 Autism! 06:28:55 elliott: i'm sure i must have mentioned that i cannot have a beard as i cannot stand the itching to get it 06:29:07 well you kind of have to, sorry 06:29:08 (also because i don't have any actual desire to get one) 06:29:10 it could be a fake beard? 06:29:25 pikhq: Psychotically pedantic... does that mean somebody's like "no it's spelt madokau" and you're like "ARG STOP SPLITTING INFINITIVES" 06:29:34 I'm 23 06:29:50 No, I'm also not literally insane. 06:30:02 Though I'm pushing it. 06:30:07 though everyone almost always thinks I'm younger until I start blathering about dumb cpu things 06:30:11 well 'psychotic' means you hallucinate and shit right 06:30:16 wow Fiora is almost as old as kmc 06:30:18 and kmc is almost as old as fizzie 06:30:26 and fizzie is... a few orders of magnitude away from oerjan 06:30:35 Fiora: Ah, you're nearly a lich then. 06:30:37 fizzie is almost as old as oerjan's fourth generation spawn 06:30:42 http://www.in20years.com/shared/8/ager/1303146/aged_wb20130314013004762421.png i think we have our answer 06:31:20 soon fizzie will be old as the last syllable of the current aeonic utterance of oerjan, the ur-being, the maker & unmaker of all, the alpha, the omega, the being, the is, the isn't 06:32:03 monqy: haha wow 06:32:20 there's something about always being assumed to be younger that makes one feel even older <.< 06:32:36 That is not dead which can eternal lie, and in strange aeons even death my die? 06:32:44 nice in20years.com has a field for whether you are a drug addict or not 06:32:47 cheery novelty site! 06:32:55 Fiora: There's something damned odd about never getting carded. 06:32:57 maybe you should just act like you're 107, and then surprise people when you reveal you're actually only barey transpikhq 06:33:36 Oops.. We couldn't detect a face in the photo. Please try a different one. 06:33:38 Transpikhq... That is a very strange phrasing to me now. 06:33:38 pikhq: I'd imagine I'd get carded, and then they'd spend a minute looking it over for marks of a fake 06:33:42 but I've never bought alcohol 06:33:45 thats what i got when i tried to age up the dijkstra photo 06:33:47 Life experience confuses! 06:33:52 elliott: sometimes you can get it to detect faces on things that aren't actually faces 06:33:53 ... oh. actually. I did like, once, for a bottle of cooking wine. 06:33:54 monqy: i _do_ recognize a bit of those protruted cheeks, i'll admit. 06:33:54 was dijkstra a robot 06:34:19 Fiora: Hah. 06:34:22 or it detects a face but it detects it in the wrong place 06:34:58 pikhq: i basically have no idea how to decline your name i'm afraid 06:35:07 Bike: "no, pikhq's name" 06:35:07 * Fiora poofs back to finishing up gundam 00 06:35:11 transpikhqian 06:35:12 hop ethis helps 06:35:16 I don't know Latin either, so. 06:35:37 plus i only know "kh" from like, "khanate" probably 06:35:43 monqy: wait you probably selected "drug addict", didn't you. 06:35:47 oerjan: yes 06:35:52 how did you guess 06:35:54 "khq" is just ridiculous 06:36:01 I was 8. 06:36:10 a striking resemblance??? 06:36:10 oerjan is a drug addict irl thats why he recognised the cheeks 06:36:54 Fiora: btw everyone always assumes me to be younger too. 06:37:12 really. 06:37:17 like irl 06:37:17 "Transpikhq" is just weird to me cause I've somehow gotten to the point where "trans" -> "transgender" in my head. 06:37:19 everyone except elliott, drummer to the mad god 06:37:21 or actually on the internet 06:37:28 because irl doesn't really count imho 06:37:30 pikhq: i still associate trans/cis with chemistry 06:37:36 for anything 06:37:51 cispikhq isomer 06:38:14 'trans' is everywhere 06:38:26 sometimes i use the word 'transcend' i think it's a good word 06:38:35 Yeah, but my head has weird wiring. 06:38:40 :-) 06:38:47 trans... cend... what's the etymology there 06:38:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:38:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 06:38:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:39:27 it's from "scandere", to climb in the french of yore 06:39:29 weird 06:39:39 -!- Jafet has joined. 06:39:47 good etymology, thanks french 06:40:36 like in ascend? 06:40:37 just pretend i said something insensitive about french people here 06:40:41 it'll save us all effort 06:40:53 um elliott thats racist 06:41:01 you should take that thing you said right there back 06:41:07 how did you guess <-- i'm not _that_ ill looking yet. hth. 06:41:18 -!- Jafet has quit (Client Quit). 06:41:21 monqy: That's cultural imperialism right there. 06:41:27 madbr: looks to be the same, yep 06:41:30 yeah what's this thing about ppl dissing the french 06:41:39 Don't you know, insensitivity to the French is a major, fundamental part of British culture? 06:41:48 ok :-) 06:41:55 it's some dumb bush thing that people are taking seriously... wat 06:42:00 elliott is just hateful, he's spent so much time yelling ineffectually at scotsmen that he has to take a break to yell ineffectively about (not even at!) french people 06:42:08 oh this isn't an americanism 06:42:14 Bike: you forgot: sometimes i yell at Bike. 06:42:26 Ok, yes, he also hates luxembourg. 06:42:43 sometimes i yell but in a calm and subdued manner. i can't think of a metaphor so just imagine that ok 06:42:48 oerjan: have you noticed there is a slight halo surrounding you in that photo of you (the fake one on your website) 06:44:00 not saying you're jesus but i'm saying there's at least a 70% chance 06:44:31 isn't he like welsh? i thought jesus was japanese 06:45:18 elliott: OKAY 06:45:18 yes oerjan is welsh 06:45:59 norwelsh 06:46:10 nice country in the summer 06:46:16 when did you wake up oerjan 06:46:39 an hour and a half ago 06:47:10 i guess i'm in that brief period of my sleeping cycle which strange people consider "normal" 06:48:27 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 06:48:41 (strange people who control the world) 06:49:12 also control: the sun 06:49:34 There is a Pope. <-- what, already? 06:50:03 Kinda short interregnum there. 06:50:06 yup 06:50:18 oerjan: they managed to find an old white catholic guy quickly enough 06:50:21 how did they do it???????????? 06:50:41 the papal conclave is too secretive for us to know 06:51:08 elliott: maybe they collected all the sufficiently old white catholig guys in one place, locked them inside and forced them to choose one among themselves. but that's of course ridiculous. 06:51:13 *catholic 06:51:15 Though they failed to find an old European Catholic guy. 06:51:29 ooh, progress! 06:51:36 Old white catatonic guy. 06:51:54 He's from Argentina. 06:52:04 well argentinia is basically european imo 06:52:06 does he know how to tango? 06:52:07 children of italians but close enough 06:52:08 *inininina 06:52:11 like look at the name 06:52:14 pretty european name for a country 06:52:17 elliott: South America. 06:52:27 Bike: i guess they need to take it one step at a time 06:52:38 pikhq: yes. basically europe 06:52:41 no big leaps like the US choosing an islamic terrorist 06:52:56 maybe they just need to find a sufficiently conservative ghanaian 06:53:04 Señorita Nina, from Argentina, knew all the answers / Although her relatives and friends were perfect dancers / She swore she'd never dance a step until she died 06:53:06 how about someone from guam 06:53:09 Fiora for pope 06:53:20 sounds good to me 06:53:23 And unsurprisingly, he's very anti-homosexuality. 06:53:34 wide reforms in the areas of architecture design and JRPG outfits 06:53:44 Of course, the first Pope in favor of it will probably get accused of being the Antichrist. 06:53:53 and yeah he's conservative as hell, what else is new 06:54:02 pikhq: The Antipope, surely? 06:54:06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGBHfXPqbgI 06:54:15 shachaf: That's not a "the". 06:54:21 Sure it is. 06:54:22 There's been multiple antipopes in history. 06:54:40 There have been multiple popes, and yet people say "the pope" 06:54:49 there are multiple ones right now, though i think the spanish guy is the one people mention most 06:54:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:54:58 pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_Babylon_One_World_Faith today i found out that Left Behind is right on the pulse of catholicism. 06:55:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:56:22 Yeah, kinda like how when one refers to "The Queen" you mean Elizabeth II, by the grace of God Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, defender of the faith... 06:56:55 Bike: That... what 06:57:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H.H._Pope_Shenouda_III_smiling_while_giving_a_word.jpg I think other popes kind of get the short shrift, really 06:57:24 i mean look at that hat. it's a pope hat alright 06:58:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pope_Theodoros_II_of_Alexandria.jpg ooh the present pope was a pharmacist 06:58:41 I am very confused by that Left Behind thing. 06:59:06 What's confusing? 06:59:22 Nothing about it makes any sense! 06:59:35 well, yeah, it's millenialist nuttines. 06:59:59 It's like a Chick tract with worse art. 07:00:41 As though a rapture would produce a global religion of any form... 07:01:15 Much less such a strange universalist thing. 07:01:37 (who the hell does Catholic universalism?!?) 07:01:52 people who seriously think things like "muhammad was a catholic agent" 07:02:39 Also, using "Pontifex Maximus" as though it's some sort of evil title. Lawl. 07:03:57 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 07:04:01 Pontifex does sound kind of evil if you have a twelve-year-old's knowledge of latin (hi), admittedly 07:04:20 Sigh, reading the Wikipedia page, and realizing I actually know the weird Christian theological terminology. 07:04:21 pontifex is spooky and bad juju 07:04:32 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:04:45 ("amillenial", "postmillenial", "premillenial" etc) 07:05:26 i only know the ancient stuff ("marcionist") with a smattering of weirdness like dominionism 07:06:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:07:15 * oerjan declares the logs too damn long today 07:26:01 So I'm reading a thread about someone who doesn't understand Applicative 07:26:15 And I'm confused how you wouldn't understand Applicative 07:28:58 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Bye bye by e). 07:30:38 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:32:12 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 07:36:00 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 07:39:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:47:14 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:01:24 hm... when i become world dictator i think i will make it illegal to have a "like" button if you don't have a "dislike" one. 08:02:22 mashing Bike's dislike button as we speak 08:02:32 yay! 08:02:54 no swat button? 08:03:38 -!- dessos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:03:53 of course there will be a swat button, which only i may press. 08:04:03 you would be a good dictator 08:04:18 but there's no use in putting it on a website, since the website won't exist afterwards anyway. 08:07:42 this resembles my predicament in some way. i think you may understand it even without the veterinary's text bubble. http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/pondus/?1363215600&d=-1 08:08:25 someone stole your squeeze toy? 08:08:50 i don't recall ever having one, but i guess it _is_ possible. 08:09:47 oerjan: do people in norway think comics like this make any sense 08:09:51 what a curious species 08:10:08 it's not impossible that the comic is swedish but translated 08:10:29 ah, no, it's the other way around 08:11:09 pondus is rather surrealistic at times. it's like a bit of bill amends' foxtrot and a bit of bud grace's ernie/piranha club 08:11:24 (that's the comparison i thought of once.) 08:11:51 and it has pretty clearly passed its prime, but still sometimes amusing. 08:12:15 (it used to be norway's most popular comic) 08:12:45 so all things decay in norway too 08:12:45 actually i guess it's got back to _more_ surrealism lately. 08:13:22 sure. 08:13:51 recently i read norwegian's are gaining weight faster than any other europeans. 08:13:55 *-' 08:14:53 elliott: anyway the comic makes sense to me as a symbol of the futility of fighting the universe's annoyingness. hth. 08:15:14 thanx 08:15:47 olsner: the main comic to go the other way is "rocky" 08:16:12 at this time dagbladet has _two_ kellerman comics. 08:16:38 kellerman is the one who does rocky? 08:16:42 yes. 08:18:29 didn't know he made anything except rocky 08:18:58 well the other one is sort of drawn twitters. 08:19:24 http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/kellermannen/ 08:19:56 as in, i vaguely recall that's how it supposedly started. 08:21:00 "Ny tegneserie for twittergenerasjonen fra skaperen av Rocky." 08:21:08 maybe that's just where i got it from. 08:24:45 "A binary brown dwarf system, WISE 1049-5319, is observed 6.5 light-years from Earth, making it the closest star system discovered since 1916." 08:24:52 (wikipedia) 08:25:10 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:25:15 nice that they can still find new stars that close... 08:25:27 or maybe embarassing. who knows. 08:25:56 * oerjan throws some pi at elliott 08:26:12 that's what people do today, right? 08:26:42 -!- kallisti has joined. 08:26:42 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 08:26:43 -!- kallisti has joined. 08:26:47 is it bad american calendar day 08:27:43 well what can we do, april only has 30 days 08:28:33 -!- Jafet has joined. 08:29:08 oerjan: 6.5 light-years, that's like a stone's throw away. 08:29:36 a fairly small stone, thrown very fast. 08:36:44 "In 1868, Sirius became the first star to have its velocity measured. Sir William Huggins examined the spectrum of this star and observed a noticeable red shift. He concluded that Sirius was receding from the Solar System at about 40 km/s.[36][37] Compared to the modern value of −7.6 km/s,[2] this both was an overestimate and had the wrong sign; the minus means it is approaching the Sun. However, it is notable for introducing the study of celestial 08:36:46 42.1 km/s to escape Sun's gravity, starting from Earth, says Wikipedia's list of escape velocities. 08:36:59 "-- study of celestial". 08:38:27 celestial radial velocities." 08:38:49 I think it worked better without that. 08:38:56 OKAY 08:38:58 The study of celestial, it sounds more important. 08:39:04 yeah. 08:40:23 i didn't notice your comment that my line had been cut off, as i was busy looking up my line in the tunes logs to see if it had been cut off, but unfortunately the tunes logs had been cut off just before my line so i had to switch back to codu. 08:41:03 (i had switched to tunes a while ago when glogbot had connection problems.) 08:41:03 you could've asked us :) 08:41:33 well the thing is i wasn't sure if it had been cut off at all, in which case asking you would be just making noise, right? hth. 08:41:55 besides i have a strange hangup about asking people in general. 08:42:57 was there something wrong with the codu logs 08:43:59 elliott: not at this moment, no. but once i switch i tend not to switch back since i just look up the address in my address line history. 08:45:06 i mean, i offer my housemate lozenges and i _completely_ fail to get through the part of my request that is "please take them before your coughing makes me kill you." 08:46:08 that seems more like a murder hangup 08:46:15 yeah that too. 08:46:49 the thing is, murdering them might end up getting me even _worse_ living accomodations, unlikely as it seems. 08:46:51 "eat these or I will kill you" could be misinterpreted 08:47:13 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:47:26 i hear norwegian prisons are pretty nice 08:48:02 yes, yes they are. so i'm not _entirely_ sure it would be worse. but it would certainly ruin my daily restaurant visit. 08:48:04 You could get out of the country before anyone finds the body. 08:48:33 ion: i seem to have "getting out of the country" hangup too. 08:48:49 oerjan: go to guam and become pope 08:49:05 oerjan: I think they'll generally provide food for you, so the daily restaurant visit wouldn't be useful anyway 08:50:22 olsner: true, but the visit is an important part of how i keep the last sliver of sanity. 08:51:41 (it's a small sliver.) 08:55:23 frame the relevant part of the restaurant staff so they end up in jail with you 08:56:09 they're mostly foreigners, in the current political climate they might end up deported instead. 09:00:45 * Fiora peers back in 09:06:14 Fiora: hi, we're talking about the history of applied mathematics in russia circa 1823-1827 09:07:42 -!- nooga has joined. 09:14:38 that sounds fun 09:17:19 phew. long anime marathon 09:18:19 are you still alive or did you die of an anime overdose 09:19:38 animosis 09:21:26 I survived the gundams 09:23:10 the flood of plotting, intrigue, arbitrary plot-induced powerups, and sexy gundam pilots 09:26:23 we,'re proud of you 09:26:37 if we work hard we can conquer all the animes by 2015 09:27:44 but they keep making more animes! 09:27:46 whatever will we do? 09:28:01 kill them so they stop 09:28:58 monqy that's going too far...... we just have to jail the animes for life 09:29:05 it's the only way to control the epidemic 09:29:26 are you sure we have enough jail 09:29:50 (I am actually super bad at watching anime, I get stalled so often and have soooo many good series I should see but haven't) 09:30:05 you have built up a resistance to it 09:30:09 not everyone is so fortunate! 09:34:57 :< 09:35:05 why would one want to be resistant to good things 09:36:51 sometimes we have wars that make no sense. it's a metaphor for real life 09:37:48 that sounds like a description of gundam 09:38:21 see. everything reflects everything else. 09:44:47 * Fiora yawn 09:45:20 you just don't appreciate anime theory 09:45:43 :< 09:50:24 elliott is majoring in anime theory 09:50:28 a bachelor's of anime 09:50:53 this knowledge certainly makes one a bachelor 09:53:27 with a minor in bishonen studies 10:15:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:26:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:57:42 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:10:50 `slist 11:10:56 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 11:16:30 There are so many lists these days. 11:18:40 we should delete them all. 12:09:47 `run ls bin/*list 12:09:51 bin/elist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/list \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist 12:19:41 `cat bin/elist 12:19:43 echo elliott 12:19:46 ah 12:20:26 `run rm bin/elist 12:20:31 No output. 12:28:19 `run echo 'echo $@' > bin/instalist 12:28:23 No output. 12:28:36 problem solved 12:28:51 `cat bin/testlist 12:28:53 echo foo \ echo bar 12:28:59 `cat bin/makelist 12:29:02 cp bin/emptylist bin/"$1" 12:29:05 wow how is there so much shit 12:29:57 `cat bin/emptylist 12:29:59 echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit 12:30:20 elliott, well based on all the tests lying around i have one principal suspect 12:31:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:32:30 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:34:42 `emptylist 12:34:45 emptylist: 12:40:28 `run rm bin/?*list 12:40:32 No output. 12:40:45 R.I.P. 12:45:30 `list 12:45:34 ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb 12:45:42 God's in his heaven, all's right with the world. 12:46:17 there's still ^list though 12:46:45 unfortunately fungot lacks the introspection capabilities that drive the advanced `list technology. 12:46:45 elliott: defined in 108? 12:46:49 fungot: yes. 12:46:50 elliott: a bit down about the usage of common scheme. don't know if we can represent multiple, otherwise non-printable fnord 12:55:23 * Sgeo wtfs at the scrollbar http://tech.pro/tutorial/1152/demystifying-linq 12:56:55 I don’t see anything wrong with the scrollbar. 12:57:55 sometimes sites pull stuff like that 12:59:32 There was something mystic about linq? 13:00:31 think of a thing. i'm sure there's "something" "mystic" "about" "it" 13:00:49 The way it can pull apart lambdas is weird. Which the article doesn't touch on 13:02:17 Yeah. I noticed that. 13:02:26 I also doesn't mention IQueryable even thought it mentions databases at the start. 13:02:28 Fail 13:03:05 ...do you know how it analyzes lambdas though? 13:03:28 oklopol, r u ther 13:03:55 No, but someone in the Reddit thread linked to a series of posts about it 13:03:58 http://blogs.msdn.com/b/mattwar/archive/2008/11/18/linq-links.aspx 13:04:38 Well the trick is that a lambda expression can either be compiled as a method or an expression tree 13:04:40 Depending on context. 13:05:01 It's just a compiler trick. There are no "lambdas" at runtime 13:14:47 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 14:06:50 -!- boily has joined. 14:29:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 14:45:35 -!- boily has joined. 15:15:06 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:15:28 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:33:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 15:36:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:40:51 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:58:19 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:59:55 -!- Bike has joined. 16:00:02 -!- carado has joined. 16:02:16 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:02:38 My maths class had a Pi day celebration today 16:03:30 It was fun 16:06:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:07:47 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:08:30 Also, I need to find an alternative to Google Reader 16:12:15 just hang in there until the new specialiser-based list architecture is complete 16:17:08 But how will I keep track of these 16 webcomics 16:18:45 Taneb: Make 16 lists, have Sgeo keep track for you. 16:20:44 (wasn't Sgeo keeping track through reader though) 16:20:59 (for Homestuck he has a bot in another channel) 16:21:08 And an app on my phone 16:21:13 (I think it's generally faster than reader) 16:21:47 For OOTS I do have reader, but more often then not I notice for other reasons, like my Facebook page has the update 16:22:22 I've noticed new OOTS often because someone liked my post about new OOTS 16:23:29 sgeo have you considered working at a webcomics update company 16:23:44 put it on your cv 16:24:00 Telling You Things Are Happening LLC 16:24:23 "team player, will notify fellow coworkers of webcomic updates" 16:24:57 `popelist 16:24:59 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: popelist: not found 16:25:04 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:25:53 -!- metasepia has joined. 16:28:43 Sgeo 16:28:44 why 16:28:45 did 16:28:46 you 16:28:47 retweet 16:28:48 piers 16:28:49 morgan 16:29:47 I may have liked that particular tweet, even if I don't like his approach to arguing? Let me look for the tweet in question 16:29:54 he has a twitter? 16:30:01 sgeo i mean, of course morgan does 16:30:10 https://twitter.com/sgeocomet 16:31:24 "No offense, but it is annoying how the Trickster text isn't copy/pasteable and isn't searchable." important issues 16:31:37 Is Sgeo's name actually Sgeo 16:31:42 Or is it... 16:31:45 Sam Geometry 16:31:57 Or something 16:32:10 S. George Johanssen 16:32:23 "Sam Geometry" does bear some similarity to my name 16:32:36 yeah i mean it starts with the same letters and all 16:32:40 Sébastien Gabriel Ernest Olivier? 16:33:08 shouldn't your nick be Sgeotlhd 16:33:54 I think I used Tlhds as my currency name when I played NationStates when I was young 16:34:11 -!- Bike_ has joined. 16:35:31 Wired. Wierd. Weird, I mean. I open up Chromium's "Extensions" page, and drag-and-drop a UserScript .js into it; before I drop, it pops up the usual "drop to install" infobox, but when I actually drop, it just navigates to that file as it would if I drag-and-dropped any file into any regular tab. 16:35:52 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:35:57 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 16:35:57 HOW WEIRD 16:37:05 It did not do that at wurk. 16:37:14 Though that was real Chrome, not the diet-Chromium. 16:38:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:45:34 oklopol 16:45:41 Phantom_Hoover: only now. 16:54:30 Alright, I now have Thunderbird set up 17:23:28 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:23:41 -!- carado has joined. 17:25:14 News in Hexham: "Extra day scrapped" 17:25:30 "Miner's race goes downhill this year!" 17:25:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:26:12 down _through_ the hill, one would assume. 17:26:48 One would assume that, yes 17:26:56 any person to hit lava automatically wins. 17:27:07 posthumously. 17:38:33 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:42:39 I wonder how quickly I could put together a Scandinavia and the World's Finland cosplay 17:43:05 Buy a knife and a vodka bottle 17:43:07 done 17:43:28 I'll also need a hat 17:43:46 the hat is important, as is the facial hair. 17:45:38 I already have the facial hair 17:45:49 The hat isn't too hard to get hold of 17:48:51 what was the word that Finland said again? 17:49:02 Perkele 17:49:07 SATW is wonderful 17:49:33 Taneb: thanks! 17:53:39 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:00:44 SATW updates rather rarely. 18:03:16 It's like the third least updatey webcomic I read 18:03:42 ELER updates quite rarely too. 18:03:53 I think dresden codak might update even slower? 18:04:28 The second and first are Awkward Fumbles and Goost 26 18:04:45 Goost 26 is a sci-fi comic written by some guy my dad used to know 18:05:40 one of the webcomics i has like two years between updates, it's great, it always goes dead between 18:05:41 There are like 9 new Dresden Codak storyline strips since I last looked. 18:06:09 But yeah, I'm going to an anime con soon where I know there will be a lot of Axis Powers: Hetalia fans 18:06:28 * Bike goes to look. last update: august 2010 18:06:43 just don't mention you like a ship that they don't! 18:07:18 hungary/abkhazia 4 lyfe 18:07:33 So I'm gonna cosplay SATW and confuse everyone 18:07:45 and now I'm thinking about all of the countries in gundam 00 for some reason 18:07:52 and their future-history of the middle east and ethnic conflicts 18:08:42 did it predict syria 18:09:38 it's much farther future, like, one thing that happens is the kurds finally secede and create their own country, which naturally gets involved in another mess of an ethnic conflict resulting in its absorption into a neighboring country again 18:09:48 (and the protagonist is kurdish) 18:10:09 kurdish independence? it really is science fiction 18:10:17 it also does the whole "gosh what happens when the middle east runs out of oil" thing 18:10:43 much of the show's plot sort of revolves around the massive economic problems caused by a switch to global solar energy, and the obsoleting of oil 18:11:21 neat 18:11:46 Wouldn't the middle east still be pretty good for solar energy? 18:14:06 the basic premise is that there was a huge project to build an orbital solar collector (as a ring) connected to the earth by 3 big space elevators 18:15:21 Taneb: http://www.theonion.com/2056-06-22/news/6/ 18:15:53 this would surely solve conflicts over energy and resources, right? well except of course the power blocs that own the 3 big space elevators have a lot of coercive power since they can say "do X or you don't get power" 18:15:58 Bike, heh 18:17:03 and then there's a lot of political conflict in countries that aren't part of the major blocks, with fundamentalists and nationalists who don't want to accede to the demands of the major power blocks, and resent their imperialism 18:20:23 Bike: actually, like, seriousthought. I can't think of any other tv show, like, ever, with a seriously portrayed/not-stereotypical middle-eastern protagonist o_O 18:20:51 i can think of another anime, though he's half-japanese because it's anime. 18:21:40 maybe Community? I haven't seen it. Also he's probably American. 18:21:56 Community is an anime now? 18:22:03 I said shooowwwww 18:22:08 i would watch that 18:22:13 actually they already did a short anime segment 18:22:47 but yeah like I am fangirling over this show now that I've finished it and it was kinda wonderful and stuff 18:23:09 do TV adaptations of the Bible maybe count 18:23:30 if they're not whitewashed, anyhow 18:23:32 I wonder how many of those don't have white people playing moses 18:23:43 but yeah, I don't think that counts for a modern portrayal <.< 18:24:09 other than that all that comes to mind is media by them 18:24:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Mosque_on_the_Prairie 18:24:20 like uh... what was that popular cartoon that woman did. something opolis 18:25:04 "While the show does derive some of its humour from exploring the interactions of the Muslims with the non-Muslim townspeople of Mercy... at its core the show is essentially a traditional sitcom whose most unique trait is the simple fact of being set among an underrepresented and misunderstood cultural community" 18:25:19 yeah, i've heard good things about it 18:25:25 i haven't seen it 18:25:27 it's on Hulu 18:25:38 oh! persepolis, that was it 18:26:18 ooh, that looks rather cool 18:26:50 there's a saudi arabian guy on SA who did some comics about his life, they're weird to read (because, well, it's not that different) 18:27:43 apparently members of the family are usually entitled jerks 18:33:03 http://al-saqr.deviantart.com/art/Cartoon-Racism-265518461 ah there we go. this is great 18:36:10 the onion has good over the top right wing political cartoons 18:36:18 and yes they always include the statue of liberty crying in a corner 18:36:52 You've Got Fail 18:37:36 o no 18:37:55 have you seen Kelly's youtube videos 18:38:06 no 18:38:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVtbkQMwJS4 you should 18:39:35 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:40:20 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:46:52 Hmm 18:46:52 Where can I get or make a t-shirt bearing the flag of Finland 18:47:14 @google finland flag t-shirt 18:47:16 http://www.zazzle.com/finland_flag_t_shirt-235009520674383859 18:47:17 Title: Finland Flag T-shirt from Zazzle.com 18:47:20 how's that 18:47:42 Wouldn't the flag of Hexham be more appropriate for you? 18:49:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:50:20 Alas, Hexham does not have a flag 18:50:29 Also, that's not quite what I want 18:50:40 brb 18:50:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:52:43 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:54:47 http://robrhinehart.com/ 18:54:55 Carbohydrates (200g): Any molecule consisting only of Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. Flour, corn, bread, rice, pasta, your cells don't care. 18:55:12 wow, i never realised phenol was a great way to get some carbs 18:56:06 "Raw Potassium is extremely reactive, so I use potassium gluconate, C6H11KO7." 18:56:11 wow this guy knows his stuff 18:56:26 huh apparently that's actually how "carbohydrate" is defined 18:56:55 not nutritionally, obviously 18:57:01 I thought it also required a 2:1 ratio of hydrogen to oxygen 18:57:01 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 18:57:05 @messages 18:57:05 elliott said 1d 2h 11m 42s ago: any idea about http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=DNA-Sharp&curid=2720&diff=35666&oldid=31940? site owner, maybe? 18:57:17 apparently not 18:57:19 all edible carbohydrates I know of have that ratio 18:57:32 "Some exceptions exist; for example, deoxyribose, a component of DNA, has the empirical formula C_5H_10O_4" 18:57:53 that's where the "deoxy" in the name comes from 18:57:57 it has one less oxygen than it should 18:58:11 what a loser of a carb 18:59:08 bakelite counts too i guess 18:59:17 (wow, there aren't many common polymers with oxygen in them) 18:59:43 -!- ogrom has joined. 19:00:00 also: i like the idea of monopotassium being something you'd ever even consider eating 19:00:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:00:12 " For others such as K, P, Ca, Mg, check your local lab supply store or university." 19:00:14 nylon has some oxygens here and there. 19:00:21 oh jesus christ this guy is an idiot 19:00:32 I am not an idiot! 19:00:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:00:47 check your local lab supply store for your necessary calcium 19:00:57 i mean man, even if this wasn't cracked, think of the logistical issues. 19:03:50 what like 19:04:51 what? 19:05:35 logistical issues 19:05:53 i mean beyond not understanding the term 'fit for human consumption' 19:06:05 i mean, consider if this guy got a following 19:06:27 i don't think lab supply places have sufficient output of calcium to support more than a few people (if they could support people) 19:07:26 ah 19:07:40 -!- azaq23 has joined. 19:07:54 though i don't know his ideology, why would you ever come up with this shit 19:08:03 if you were Sgeo? 19:08:10 i mean i guess there are people who just don't enjoy food 19:08:14 Phantom_Hoover: you will survive on cellulose 19:08:22 what wonderful carbohydrates that are full of nutrition 19:08:52 eating grass would be more survivable than phenol, that's for sure 19:08:53 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:09:00 phenol? 19:09:31 C6H5OH 19:09:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phenol_2_grams.jpg mm-mm, good 19:09:40 lignin 19:09:46 delicious, nutricious lignin 19:10:04 Sgeo, it's benzene with an OH group stuck on 19:10:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lignin_structure.svg Wow, what a compound. 19:10:16 it's probably carcinogenic, i haven't checked 19:10:30 it's an acid, it burns through your skin 19:10:47 I'm not sure you'd survive to test the cancerousness of it 19:11:05 it apparently isn't actually carcinogenic 19:11:11 hm this means i am presently surrounded by towers of lignin. awesome 19:11:35 however: "Repeated or prolonged skin contact with phenol may cause dermatitis, or even second and third-degree burns.[35] Inhalation of phenol vapor may cause lung edema.[34] The substance may cause harmful effects on the central nervous system and heart, resulting in dysrhythmia, seizures, and coma.[36]" 19:11:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:11:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 19:11:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:11:56 Wait, so the guy making the drink thing that replaces food doesn't know what he's talking about? 19:11:57 * Sgeo sads 19:12:32 it could also be that the articles are dumbing it down? 19:12:40 lignin structure looks like a maze 19:12:45 oh, from his site 19:12:59 Fiora: i think suggesting going to lab supply stores for your meals is beyond dumbing it down 19:12:59 Sgeo, well I can't see anything glaringly wrong with the actual ingredients, though I'm no expert. 19:13:19 Phantom_Hoover, oh, I thought the channel was pointing out glaringly wrong things or something 19:13:22 But putting any lab-grade chemicals in your mouth is very stupid indee. 19:13:24 *indeed 19:14:10 Bike: oh wow 19:14:13 that's kind of crazy 19:14:32 Phantom_Hoover, hmm, why? 19:14:35 I think you can get a lot of powdered food-grade vitamins and minerals and stuff online easily enough? 19:14:49 Are the materials likely to be impure? 19:14:49 I heard it's a lot cheaper than actually buying capsules if you really really feel like measuring it all out 19:14:53 Sgeo: your body is not used to handling pure potassium. 19:14:59 Sgeo, because lab-grade chemicals are filtered to remove stuff that will fuck up the reactions. 19:15:15 yeah, the form of the mineral is super important 19:15:19 This is not the same as filtering them to remove stuff that will kill or harm you. 19:15:24 Fiora, oh no he got that bit right. 19:15:33 oh, so he's not asking you to get raw potassium 19:15:41 He seemed chuffed that he'd avoided such an obvious beginner's mistake. 19:15:46 fiora: "Carbohydrates (200g): Any molecule consisting only of Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. Flour, corn, bread, rice, pasta, your cells don't care." this could be dumbing it down but if so it is very dangerous dumbing 19:15:56 yeah :/ 19:16:11 and even among edible carbodydrates, that is just, agh, so wrong 19:16:17 fructose and glucose use completely different metabolic pathways 19:16:50 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:17:20 Hmm, what could kill you that wouldn't fuck up lab reactions? 19:17:28 potassium 19:17:37 it would literally explode in your mouth 19:17:44 Well, besides the actual substance in question 19:17:45 maybe isomers of something that you'renot supposed to eat isomers of? 19:17:52 Sgeo, really pure lab ethanol contains significant quantities of benzene, iirc. 19:18:18 or like, a chemical that is 99% of The Molecule You Want and 1% of a Similar Thing With Slightly Changed Structure That Causes Cancer 19:18:31 i mean you know chem labs usually have "do not eat or drink anything in this room" rules for a reason 19:18:45 Because it removes water more effectively than distillation. 19:18:49 I'm guessing in some cases the chemical synthesis pathways might be different, like there's an easy way to make some chemical X, but produces small amounts of dangerous thing Y, so food synthesis has to use a different, more expensive pathway? 19:19:24 but I'm totally guessing 19:19:30 I don't actually know anything about organic chemistry 19:20:07 I think like with the ethanol example you can also have something which doesn't matter for food but will mess with experiments. 19:20:27 oh right, there was a great example! trans fats 19:20:28 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:20:44 they're just a mirrored isomer of something fine, butthey turned out to be toxic 19:21:57 trans fats??? 19:22:14 they are called "trans" because they're mirrored, cool 19:22:23 * Sgeo still likes the core idea of not having to eat food 19:22:24 that seems really obvious in retrospect 19:22:33 that's not actually why 19:23:04 's what wikipedia says 19:23:05 trans refers to the way the carbons are arranged around a double bond 19:23:26 mreeeeeeh cistrans, mirrored, same diff 19:23:58 compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trans-2-butene.svg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cis-2-butene.svg 19:24:01 freakin' transphobia 19:24:23 thalidomides have a toxic enantiomer, though 19:25:17 thalidomides have a non-toxic isomer? 19:25:43 yeah, the one that cures morning sickness 19:25:50 the other one causes birth defects 19:25:51 Sgeo: the fundamental problem here is probably that your body is "designed" to deal with regular food, and any protein pellet like thing is basically going to have to hack around that 19:26:36 http://www.reddit.com/r/qntm 19:26:57 pie! 19:27:59 Funny, I only noticed on the qntm subreddits, but it's a Reddit thing 19:29:35 ~duck qntm 19:29:36 Software description: repo for gollum based wiki - qntm (JavaScript). 19:29:48 Bike, i think this is that thing that kmc complains about where people think that just by being clever enough you can solve any problem you feel like 19:30:09 Phantom_Hoover: it seems to come up a lot in relation to the medical sciences. 19:30:33 I'd say that you can solve any problem you like but sometimes the solution is worse than the problem 19:30:37 thankfully sgeo isn't peddling alkaline water or something 19:31:19 you should buy this water oxygenation machine! 19:31:26 with my CS degree I am automatically an expert in law, medicine, and politics 19:31:26 proven to increase the size of my wallet for each one Iell! 19:31:27 *sell 19:31:59 kmc, btw i won't complain if you complain about this guy 19:32:15 this guy = bike? 19:32:28 yeah bike sucks 19:32:31 :( 19:32:37 but no he means uh 19:32:44 http://robrhinehart.com/ this guy 19:32:56 (note that while bike sucks, biking as an action is fine) 19:33:12 Fiora: apparently Kurzweil is into it. sad 19:33:37 he's the one who eats like, 200 different health supplements 19:33:41 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:33:50 the shotgun approach to health 19:34:23 i think it was elliott who said, "the singularity will occur the day before ray kurzweil would otherwise die" 19:34:27 well at least this person has done /some/ relevant research 19:34:30 and also is collecting data 19:34:41 though mostly anecdata 19:34:48 best data 19:35:49 kmc, well for me the most damning parts were him saying that all carbohydrates are the same, and that he thinks a lab supplier is a good source of ingredients. 19:36:32 what we need is more molecular gastronomists 19:36:37 Phantom_Hoover: well lab suppliers give you ingredients at higher purity than a particular supermarket 19:36:40 but that's normally higher than you need 19:36:47 Bike: there's Heston Blumenthal 19:36:50 not sure if there are any others, though 19:36:58 I think the real issue is how much I suck at installing graphics card 19:37:10 ais523, we talked about this earlier, lab reagents are not safe for human consumption. 19:37:33 you can have impurities that are fine in a lab but toxic to humans 19:37:36 right 19:37:38 of course 19:37:48 'An Introduction to Graphviz via R. Kelly’s “Trapped in the Closet” Hip Hopera' 19:37:51 ok 19:37:52 this might actually be the best blog 19:38:03 if it involves trapped in the closet it is the best blog 19:38:11 oh man, they're making a relationship graph, aren't they! 19:38:13 bitchin 19:38:32 Is that the one Weird Al parodied 19:38:35 yep 19:38:50 it has to be seen to be believed 19:38:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-L-Cp3qZfQ 19:39:25 aha, someone who does know their shit: http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424#comment-514 19:39:56 Bike, isn't that cop the biology teacher from community 19:40:03 notable for having R Kelly trying to sound Southern 19:40:22 and i don't know 19:41:40 miiidget... miiidget... miiidget 19:41:46 he was taking the piss, right 19:42:12 nope, the midget is properly introduced in the next episode 19:42:41 his name is Big Man, because he has a huge penis 19:43:20 he says "bridget get your ass back" 19:43:35 then he continues to rough up the midget as though the midget was under attack 19:43:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:44:22 also this is pretty meta because Kelly plays the main character but /also/ the narrator there, and they are separate 19:44:32 but this isn't clear up until he comes out of the closet! 19:46:02 which, i understand, is actually not an allegory at all 19:47:13 well it kind of is, the whole story is about people lying to each other about sexual conduct 19:47:16 Phantom_Hoover: didn't the guy also make a thing about how he used complex carbohydrates for health reasons? 19:47:17 most of them aren't gay though 19:47:28 Fiora, idk 19:47:39 but yeah, all his descriptions seem to be confusing <.< 19:49:22 also i overlooked this passage: "It's a difficult field because there are simply too many variables and the parameters are difficult to control precisely. This is why diets are fads. I decided to ditch nutrition and focus on biology." 19:49:50 not very inclined to introspection, this guy 19:51:12 but but nutrition is biology 19:51:37 i guess by focusing on biology he's eliminated all those variables and parameters 19:52:01 also: he's apparently missing choline which is apparently important 19:52:31 bodies are basically linear operators, donchaknow 19:53:17 also he didn't realise you can't absorb both iron and calcium at once 19:53:54 it's almost as if human nutrition is a complex field you can sink years into studying full-time 19:54:03 Fiora: you still haven't announced fiorasm on fioraaeterna have you 19:54:27 trying to go nutrient by nutrient seems really dangerous because I don't think we actually know all of the essential nutrients? 19:54:47 it's probably too reductionist to actually work 19:54:52 ummm I guess I don't figure most of my followers would be interested 19:55:04 maybe you'll be surprised! 19:55:11 you only have to press space once Fiora 19:55:30 other things he's left out: fibre, probiotics 19:55:45 but fiber is just carbohydrates, they're all the same! 19:57:17 carbohydrates will never be the same! 19:58:32 i mean if he was working with actual scientists something useful might come of this, but at present he's just going to end up making an idiot of himself 19:59:53 chemical engineers doing nutrition could be cool 20:01:41 biologists would be more useful; the aim would be to see if he's missing anything by monitoring his health rigorously 20:01:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:01:55 maybe that's already been tried though? 20:02:03 probably duriing the cold war at some point 20:02:09 other things he's missing: boron, silicon 20:02:17 also one of the responses to that comment you linked was "well then how do you explain that he felt well!" so 20:03:05 yes 20:03:42 i can't believe nobody's pointed out to him that "i feel good" vs. "my intestine-sense tells me i lack iron" is a godawful way of measuring anything 20:04:02 Hello 20:04:10 Phantom_Hoover, you should point it out 20:05:49 I feel go-urgh 20:05:52 * Taneb is dead 20:05:59 R.I.P. 20:06:00 no! he was so young 20:06:05 * Taneb is dead due to lack of boron in his intestine 20:06:10 so young and boronic 20:06:18 Here lies Taneb, no more hellos from him. 20:06:49 also apparently his soy protein base contains a compound that binds to oestrogen receptors 20:06:50 I need to teach something very basic and practical of programming (with PHP, unfortunately) to a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea about programming (or computers really) in about 40 minutes. What could I possible teach them? 20:06:56 * boily pours borax on Taneb. may your afterlife be boron-rich. amen. 20:07:04 it's a meal and a sex change, all in a glass! 20:07:39 AnotherTest: stereotypical example like the guessing game 20:07:54 AnotherTest: I used to use stereogram generators as an example of that, the algorithm is really really simple, like 7 or 8 lines in most languages 20:08:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit). 20:11:47 ais523: that would be great a really great idea, although I'm not sure if they're aware of stereograms 20:11:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:12:23 AnotherTest: one problem is that it needs decent support for 2D arrays, as well as some sensible way to provide an input image 20:12:27 ASCII art is sufficient for output 20:13:51 I'm not sure if I can explain 2D arrays and image input to people who have not written a single line of code before though... 20:14:13 You make that program which asks your name, and your age, and then prints out "Hello, , you are year(s) old." 20:14:18 That's, like, so exciting. 20:14:30 AnotherTest: yeah, that's why I brought it up as a problem 20:15:07 AnotherTest: Show them a grid of things 20:15:27 Well, the problem seems to be that most of the typical examples are pretty boring 20:16:14 FreeFull: sure, although I'm already having trouble finding one thing 20:16:58 Regarding "An Introduction to Graphviz via R. Kelly’s 'Trapped in the Closet' Hip Hopera", JPG for graphviz output, really? 20:17:10 AnotherTest: Why do you have to teach them? 20:17:13 worst blog every kmc 20:17:15 ever* 20:17:56 :/ 20:18:00 AnotherTest: maybe try to explain it using televisions as an example? 20:18:17 I guess that's harder nowadays since they're not tubes and you can't describe a beam going across a screen 20:18:50 FreeFull: Well, because they want to learn something (it's not a compulsory thing), and because I would like to get them interested in programming in general 20:20:34 When do you have to do this? A classic approach would be to post an Ask Slashdot topic about it. 20:20:40 AnotherTest: I suggest you show them cool magic 20:20:56 But, are you a cool magician? :) 20:23:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:24:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:26:24 FreeFull: I'm a really bad magician I think. 20:26:39 fizzie: next week, Thursday 20:27:07 I think one of the coolest things possible is live-coding some cool graphics/music 20:27:10 Then it's perhaps too soon. 20:27:12 in php 20:27:21 PHP gives you extra wizard points 20:27:56 just use the demo_makecool() function from the standard lib 20:28:11 The coolest thing you can possibly do is show them how to write a constraint solver. 20:28:14 Phantom_Hoover: but they don't know what a function means in PHP! 20:28:54 FreeFull, show them an eodermdrome interpreter 20:29:16 Phantom_Hoover: In PHP? 20:30:01 A visual eodermdrome IDE. 20:30:22 Written in eodermdrome 20:30:22 Oh great lord 20:30:32 With a backbone of PHP 20:30:43 "Let's just teach them brainfuck as a first language" 20:31:06 I'm sure they'll be delighted by this great abstraction 20:31:18 teach them trustfuck, sgeo has a degree and trust is important in trusted enterprise applications 20:31:51 You just start at beginning of the wiki's language list, and see how far you can get in 40 minutes. 20:32:03 ... 20:32:12 Except that it means you'll start with !!!Batch. 20:32:18 I think that was perhaps not the best advice. 20:32:26 do you have to go through brainfuck derivatives? 20:32:35 and what's wrong with !!!Batch? 20:33:08 ok. !!!Batch is not a good idea. 20:33:37 start with the !Kung languages, clearly 20:34:17 There's no "Batch derivatives" category, I see. 20:34:46 There's only like one person who ever batch derivatives? 20:34:56 Sure, but there's more than one of them. 20:35:02 There's Numeric Batch, for example. 20:35:35 He Is Also Working On A New Language 20:35:37 And I'm pretty sure there was more than just !!!Batch and Numeric Batch. 20:35:38 oh no 20:35:48 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 20:35:54 There's "Poison" 20:36:13 Maybe I was thinking of Poison. 20:36:23 But it's a... Python derivative, arguably? 20:36:49 like python without actual control flow? 20:36:54 (except for exit) 20:37:00 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:37:13 ow. 20:37:18 Oh but you can do dip("python module") it seems 20:37:27 I seem to recall you can just use regular Python, too. 20:37:32 So you'd write your code in python, and then load it 20:37:39 All the foo()s are just additional functions. 20:37:45 (I might misremember.) 20:38:24 Well it has a sq (sqrt) function but not addition 20:38:35 I guess sqrt was more important 20:39:07 is it just me, or is it not quite an esolang? 20:39:49 boily: It's weird 20:40:42 it's also terrifying. 20:41:37 "Numeric Batch Was Created By Shubshub To Make Programming In Batch More Challenging and to Make it seem Better as it is Theoreticly Unreadable" 20:41:50 good esolang name 20:42:00 like, it seems better because it's not readable 20:43:41 Anyway, I'll see what I teach them. I think it might be nice if they can sort of work towards a certain program during the 40 minutes. 20:44:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:48:05 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:58:35 -!- wareya_ has joined. 21:01:46 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:09:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:13:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:14:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:15:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:17:09 -!- augur has joined. 21:17:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:18:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:22:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:23:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:29:12 > sortBy (\_ _ -> GT) "Hello, world!" 21:29:14 "!dlrow ,olleH" 21:32:21 > sortBy (\_ _ -> EQ) "Hello, world!" -- is it stable? 21:32:23 "Hello, world!" 21:32:38 Every letter is born equal. 21:45:22 kmc: what book by kurt vonnegut should i read.. 21:45:35 not an expert on that 21:45:57 ok. 21:46:23 all i read was ``cat's cradle`` and ''slaughterhouse-five'' and they were both good 21:46:54 how about the rosenberg one 21:47:06 which one is that one 21:47:48 Breakfast of Champions 22:06:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:07:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:09:58 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:17:32 Was Cat's Cradle the one with ice-nine? 22:17:51 "Not to be confused with Ice IX", I'm sure Wikipedia says. 22:23:12 yes. 22:23:25 and yes, it does say that, since ice ix is an actual form of water. 22:26:26 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 22:29:50 -!- metasepia has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:30:00 -!- boily has joined. 22:37:30 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:48:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:53:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:57:01 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:58:15 -!- Bike_ has joined. 22:58:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:58:59 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:09:43 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 23:33:20 Phantom_Hoover, this show is amazing 23:33:39 You should still watch PMMM 23:43:58 Phantom_Hoover, how often do time related epsiodes occur? 23:44:02 Because I really like this one 23:44:19 "Back and Back and Back to the Future" 23:44:32 (still watching) 23:50:25 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:59:38 Sgeo, not... that much, i think? 23:59:51 Aww 23:59:57 This was a good episode :) 2013-03-15: 00:00:01 but there are a lot of episodes that do their own take on some TV sci-fi cliche 00:00:31 Who was the character in SG-1 who a similar thing happened to? 00:00:43 Was it the character that this same actor played? 00:01:22 you seem to be under the impression i've watched sg-1 00:01:26 Oh 00:01:38 Why's the kind of (->) have question marks in it? 00:03:21 λ> :k (->) 00:03:21 (->) :: * -> * -> * 00:03:45 Bike: In older versions of GHC it was a thing related to unboxed types and such. 00:03:58 You can pretend it's * -> * -> * 00:04:11 ok, just checking. 00:04:20 Sgeo, (iirc the next episode is A Good One) 00:04:28 (also the one after that is definitely a good one_ 00:04:35 then there's another good one two after that 00:05:18 Phantom_Hoover, does this mean to imply that there are episodes that aren't good? 00:05:27 :k (-> Int) -- parse error? 00:05:29 parse error on input `Int' 00:05:29 Are there bad episodes? 00:05:48 well uh 00:05:58 don't watch episode 14 00:06:14 imo do watch episode 14 and compare it negatively to PMMM 00:06:17 Bike: Yes, you can't section (->) 00:06:32 In fact you can't section any type-level things. 00:06:33 Bike, you are the worst? 00:06:35 shachaf: why not? I mean, :k ((->) Int) works. 00:06:45 Bike: ((->) Int) is (Int ->), first of all. 00:06:48 yes. 00:06:58 I mean, (Int ->) doesn't work either. 00:07:02 It would be nice if the syntax (Int ->) worked. Maybe someone should add it. 00:07:16 (someone = you) 00:07:24 That's just a little sugar thing, though. 00:07:34 'coure. 00:07:35 Sections don't make as much sense on the type level because there are no type lambdas. 00:07:36 course* 00:07:53 I.e. (-> Int) doesn't make sense, because there's nothing reasonable you can translate it to. 00:07:57 Yes, and I suppose I can't do flip (->) Int to get (-> Int). 00:08:45 Right. 00:11:45 I think something's gone funny with my video playback 00:12:04 Sometimes sections repeat 00:12:27 Or... hmm, not sure 00:13:58 After this episode going to work on blog post. 00:14:57 Goddammit Hulu, clicking the side != restart video 00:16:09 maybe it's more time shenanigans??? 00:20:54 Hulu's been acting up 00:24:09 -!- madbr has joined. 00:29:10 -!- monqy has joined. 00:30:13 sup 00:35:59 I'm stumbling on something for my small VM for video games 00:36:25 needs a jit obviously 00:36:28 Some types of gfx effects will be kinda slow 00:36:41 alpha blending in particular 00:37:00 and I don't even wanna think about bilinear interpolation 00:38:42 bilinear interpolation is just, like, a horizontal filter then a filter filter, right? 00:38:48 it's only two taps so it shouldn't be that atrocious 00:39:43 if it's for like, whole images, you could probably use an existing library even :o 00:41:08 bilinear interpolation murders most CPUs actually 00:41:11 it's like 00:41:15 4 reads instead of 1 00:41:41 and then interpolation across 3 or 4 color channels (RGB or RGBA) 00:42:11 I don't think you have to do any more reads... 00:42:29 I mean, like, if you need to bilinearly interpolate a 16x16 region, you only need a 17x17 region as input, I think? 00:42:44 what you're describing is a filter, not bilinear 00:42:46 hey haskellites, what is fail for 00:42:57 seems like an odd thing to have in Monad 00:43:06 but... a bilinear interpolator is just an H filter and a V filter unless it's not separable... 00:43:09 right...? 00:43:41 fiora : if your polygon is not rotated and your scaling factor is integer then you can do it that way yes 00:43:55 scaling factor is integer? 00:44:06 yeah like you're scaling 2x or 3x or 4x 00:44:09 and not 2.2352x 00:44:17 I don't think that's required, I think the good algorithms can do it even when it's fractional 00:44:21 um, lemme test 00:44:37 if it's fractionnal then you get a branch in the middle of the algo I think 00:45:12 I think swscale has a thing where it JITs a horizontal scaler for your given scaling percentage, I have no idea how it works though 00:45:16 not very expensive when your pipeline is super short but on more modern architectures you get the branch penalty half the time 00:45:46 fiora: yeah exactly 00:46:20 once you add rotation the whole thing falls apart 00:46:37 and you have to do 4 real pixel reads and then interpolate the values 00:46:41 rotation is icky :< 00:47:16 Bike: fail is for pattern match failure 00:47:25 > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } 00:47:27 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 b0)) 00:47:27 arising from a use of `M91964446... 00:47:37 > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: [Int] 00:47:38 [] 00:47:57 ok not the most illustrative example 00:48:04 do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: Maybe Int 00:48:09 er. 00:48:11 > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: Maybe Int 00:48:13 Nothing 00:48:14 anyway the thing to the left of <- can be a pattern; if it fails to match, 'fail' is invoked 00:48:29 imo 'fail' shouldn't be in Monad but in some MonadFail class which is additionall required if you use refutable patterns in 'd' 00:48:29 with what? 00:48:32 'do'* 00:48:46 Rigel's an idiot (I'm still watching episode) 00:48:46 with some compiler-specific description of the pattern match failure 00:48:56 good error detection 00:49:07 > do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: State Int Int 00:49:09 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show 00:49:09 (Control.Monad.Trans.Sta... 00:49:16 > fail "foo" :: IO Int 00:49:17 > execState (do { Just x <- return Nothing; return x } :: State Int Int) 00:49:18 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO GHC.Types.Int)) 00:49:18 arising fro... 00:49:19 can't find file: L.hs 00:49:23 for fuck's sake 00:49:29 L.hs is my favorite file 00:49:34 anyway, the point i'm /trying/ to make is that a lot of monads don't have anything sensible to do with 'fail' 00:49:41 yeah that's why i'm asking 00:49:46 only some monads represent error handling / alternatives / nondeterminism 00:49:55 like fail "foo" :: [whatever] being [] is... odd 00:49:57 and even then, you might not want to allow silent pattern match failure 00:50:08 it IS quite convenient when e.g. doing nondeterministic programming with [] 00:50:29 oh, you can have type variables in ::, of course you can 00:50:35 > fail "foo" :: [a] 00:50:37 [] 00:50:43 madbr: http://privatepaste.com/824967e6a8 okay wow this is actually crazy 00:50:48 type variables to the right of :: are implicitly universally quantified 00:51:03 aren't type variables implicitly universally quantified in general? 00:51:13 unless they are explicitly universally quantified ;P 00:51:16 and that's an extension 00:51:25 i noticed 00:51:27 or introduced from an outer scope, which is also an extension 00:51:32 i tried to get my pedant on and it didn't work. sad 00:51:40 Fiora: "This scaler is made of runtime-generated MMXEXT code using specially tuned pshufw instructions." metal 00:51:52 savagely hand-optimized assembler 00:52:13 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 00:52:27 I wonder if one could do even better with pmaddubsw 00:52:32 * Bike looks up, notices x86_reg as a typename. wat 00:52:49 I... I'd guess it's the size of a native register? 00:52:55 so like, 32-bit on x86_32, 64-bit on x86_64 00:52:55 i guess 00:53:05 mostly it just reminds me of how ineffectual "register" apparently is 00:53:21 Bike: i can explain the question mark kinds if you like 00:53:21 what if you're on x86_16 00:53:31 I'm guessing this code doesn't work on 16-bit <.< 00:53:37 it uses mprotect >.> 00:53:38 yeah this is crazy stuff 00:53:38 kmc: oh, go ahead. (i've gotten around to reading haskell in haskell) 00:53:48 well do you know how unboxed types work in GHC 00:53:50 kmc: i read spj's paper about I# and such if that helps 00:53:54 ok 00:54:05 but otherwise no, i don't really 00:54:07 fiora: hm, now I wonder how much of the instructions added after the 386 work in real mode 00:54:12 fiora: probably not many 00:54:33 well Int is represented, like every Haskell value, as a pointer to a heap object. but Int# is represented as a bare machine word 00:54:37 (this much you may already know) 00:54:44 right 00:55:01 so for example values of type Int# can't be passed to polymorphic functions, which are compiled only once for all types and expect to treat those values uniformly 00:55:11 so Int# has to be a different kind of type than Int 00:55:20 ooh, clever 00:55:31 in old GHC that kind is named # 00:55:39 it has some alphabetic name now 00:55:58 so what's the kind of (->), the type constructor of function types? 00:56:13 I suppose you want to support Int# -> Int# and such 00:56:13 functions are all represented by heap objects, so it's ... -> * 00:56:21 madbr: huh, weirdly, a lot of new ones apparently can o_O 00:56:22 but the arg and return types can be either boxed or unboxed 00:56:28 but uh, ?? being a union of * and # seems like it would be really weird 00:56:30 like "popcnt" has a 16-bit real mode version and apparently works in real mode? 00:56:32 it is really weird 00:56:35 and that's... that's like, SSE4 00:56:37 strange 00:56:38 it's like subtyping at kind level 00:56:39 but there you go 00:56:42 awesome 00:57:02 anyhow 00:57:05 and ? is the superkind of * and # and (#), where (#) is the kind of unboxed tuples 00:57:07 what do you call kinds on the next level again? is that where you give up and go with type3 00:57:11 e.g. (# 1, 2 #) 00:57:31 Bike: some people call them 'sorts' but in general it's nice to have uniform Set :: Set0 :: Set1 :: ... 00:57:37 right 00:57:39 fiora : tbh alpha blending is probably a bit overdone by now 00:57:47 esp. in dependently typed contexts, where distinguishing types from values is not really the goal 00:57:50 after almost 20 years of openGL stuff 00:58:07 same for bilinear 00:58:07 but but but excuse to use pmaddubsw 00:58:09 you stratify in order to have a consistent logic, not in order to erase some things after compilation 00:58:12 sometimes i wonder why mathematicians don't just start out with numberings, but then i remember this is the discipline that gave us x with a dot for derivatives 00:58:35 Bike: hey you can put a lot of dots above an x 00:58:40 ẍ 00:58:47 i forgot the combining character for one dot though :( 00:58:48 anyway unboxed tuples are even less first-class than unboxed values 00:59:02 at least in old GHC you can only return them, not take them as args 00:59:03 yeah i remember somebody who was possibly shachaf complaining about it 00:59:17 and the only thing you can do after calling a function which returns one is to immediately pattern-match out the components 00:59:23 also: i still think of types as a compilation thing instead of a logic thing. possibly this is because i am bad at logic 00:59:25 case f x of (# a, b #) -> ... 00:59:35 that amused me because it's pretty well the same as CL multiple value returns :P 00:59:39 so it's... yeah 01:00:00 and GHC will implement it just by putting a and b in separate STG-machine registers 01:00:01 fiora: :D 01:00:04 rather than building a heap object 01:00:11 right 01:00:17 vectored return is what it's called? 01:00:24 Fiora: i'm horribly curious what "LOCAL_MANGLE" could mean in the paste 01:00:25 fiora: well, deformation/warping/texture mapping effects aren't too hard 01:00:44 fiora: even on a straight dumb word-addressing RISC 01:01:44 but simd is fuuuun 01:02:10 Bike: I'm guessing it has something to do with pleasing the inline assembler but gosh I have no idea 01:02:22 ha yeah 01:02:36 I'm definitely starting to consider adding simd instructions 01:03:01 Fiora: oh, also the IDE interlude in ##asm made me want to mention slime-macroexpansion-mode but i don't know if it would be feasible or useful for assembly macros 01:03:44 slime? 01:03:53 lisp mode for emacs 01:04:14 Hmm, I see *someone* is writing yet another image scalar that's not gamma-aware. 01:04:21 basically if you have a macro form you can C-c m on it and a buffer pops up with the expansion, and you can do it again in the expansion, so you can see what something expands to. 01:04:22 Goodie, incorrect results. 01:05:00 pikhq: that's like, the fastest one in the library, I think 01:05:06 I don't think it's intended to be very good 01:05:32 Fiora: Eh, hardly anyone actually does that anyways. 01:05:38 Still sucks. 01:05:39 gamma aware sounds painful though, I've read the articles about it but egh, sending every byte through a lookup table... 01:06:13 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:06:25 pikhq : bilinear is already cpu killing and you want to add more to the massacre? :D 01:07:37 you can use a 50-tap sinc filter too >:3 01:07:46 hah 01:08:00 even on sound that's overkill 01:08:07 and on sound you can hear the alias 01:08:24 * Fiora was kidding XD 01:09:14 -!- carado_ has joined. 01:09:46 The *cheap* way is basically doing each pixel to the power of 2.2 before scaling, and then to 1/2.2 after... 01:09:55 kmc: mostly i was wondering about fail because haskell-in-haskell has mgu :: (Monad m) => Type -> Type -> m Subst and such, seemingly for no other reason than the use of fail. so i thought that seemed more like somewhere you'd use Either 01:09:59 (note, technically wrong, but damned close) 01:10:08 kmc: but i seem to not understand the haskell "philosophy" on exceptions anyway 01:10:11 wait, geez, not even that's correct? 01:10:18 Ok, one more episode then I will blog 01:10:42 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:10:49 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado. 01:10:52 Fiora: The sRGB to linear mapping is not done via a straight gamma of 2.2, but rather a somewhat weirder function. 01:11:18 I guess a lookup table would be able to get it at least? 01:11:21 srgb... is that calibrated on CRTs or LCDs? 01:11:41 https://soundcloud.com/stevexr1p/i-am-the-doctor-nintendo-remix 01:13:05 A chiptune mix of the theremin-heavy Who theme sounds surreal 01:13:47 dunno if I like it 01:13:49 The exact function is... x <= 0.04045 -> x/12.92; otherwise -> ((x+0.055)/(1.055)) ^ 2.4 01:14:14 wow. that's... that's really... I don't even 01:14:17 Where x has been scaled to be between 0 and 1 from whatever your sample size is. 01:14:51 Note that you really want your intermediates to be either floats or 16-bit ints. 01:15:14 hah gonna be soooo sloooooooooooooow :D 01:15:51 Yeah, but the average of 0 and 255 will be 187, as it should be. 01:16:09 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:17:16 it's fine on non-realtime stuff like photoshop I guess 01:17:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:17:37 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 01:17:50 Yeah, but Photoshop doesn't do this. 01:18:08 or if you do something like inverse gamma all your textures and then in the final HDR shader reapply the gamma 01:18:37 pikhq: actually I was kinda wondering something about that, if like, in photoshop I change the image format to 16-bit or 32-bit, does it go linear? 01:18:42 or does it use gamma there too? 01:19:36 Fiora: i don't know. 01:20:17 ah! http://forums.adobe.com/message/2615874 says that 32-bit float is always gamma 1.0 01:20:37 and apparently you can even set up a custom RGB profile with gamma 1.0 o_O 01:20:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:21:45 So, if you are working in 32-bit float in Photoshop you get things working right. 01:23:15 just getting brushes to work right is good enough to me :D 01:26:12 the general problem with just leaving it with the RISC opcodes is that people are going to program in the effects that render well in software 01:26:31 IE the same ones seen in a zillion demoscene demos and late DOS games 01:28:50 they're not bad (they're good at some types of "juice" :D) but not too original either 01:35:03 Bike: ah yeah, that was a somewhat old style 01:35:13 (using a generic monad for 'fail') 01:35:23 I think these days people will look at you funny for writing that kind of code 01:35:36 you would use Maybe, Either, or some class more specific than Monad 01:37:36 yeah the sRGB function is chosen "to approximate a gamma of about 2.2, but with a linear portion near zero to avoid having an infinite slope at K = 0, which can cause numerical problems." 01:38:31 So thoughtful 01:39:27 madbr: it's "calibrated for CRTs" in the sense that the CRT voltage -> luminance function is close to that gamma of 2.2, so you can output sRGB values directly as CRT voltages and it works ok 01:40:05 but an sRGB value corresponds to a particular color (i.e. CIE XYZ tristimulus value) independent of what display technology is in use 01:41:06 your display technology needs to do whatever is necessary to ensure that sRGB values correspond to linear light intensity according to the specified curve 01:41:29 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:41:44 -!- kallisti has joined. 01:41:44 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 01:41:44 -!- kallisti has joined. 01:41:49 there is a ThinkPad laptop that has a color calbiration sensor in the wrist rest 01:41:54 so you just shut the lid and it does its thing 01:43:50 -!- kallisti has quit (Client Quit). 01:44:07 -!- kallisti has joined. 01:48:15 :> 01:55:48 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:56:06 -!- kallisti has joined. 01:56:06 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 01:56:06 -!- kallisti has joined. 01:56:07 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 02:08:07 kmc: does lyah go into error handling much? like not catch, just how idiomatic code deals with exceptional situations 02:16:18 -!- jhaimar has joined. 02:17:06 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 02:20:14 holaaa 02:20:46 `welcome jhaimar 02:20:52 jhaimar: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 02:31:40 Bike: don't know 02:31:51 i think RWH has some stuff on the IO-monad sort of exceptions 02:32:44 lyah mentioned IOError but said you'd usually use pure mechanisms instead 02:33:34 @hoogle try 02:33:34 Control.OldException try :: IO a -> IO (Either Exception a) 02:33:35 System.IO.Error try :: IO a -> IO (Either IOError a) 02:33:35 Control.Exception.Base try :: Exception e => IO a -> IO (Either e a) 02:34:06 ha. 02:38:32 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:42:55 well IOError is pretty primitive 02:43:02 but GHC has a more powerful system of IO exceptions 02:43:04 extensible 02:43:30 i may be some kind of heretic, but I think the IO monad is a pretty good 'getting shit done' monad 02:43:36 it has exceptions, state, threads, oh and IO 02:43:59 for some huge program it might be nice to build an ornate transformer stack of separate exception handling, state, etc. 02:44:11 but it's a big pain for small program 02:45:36 -!- jhaimar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:51:59 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:56:22 Well, separate state is still nice for not having to pass IORefs around, unless you make a global IORef 02:57:22 that's true 02:59:39 basically what i'm asking is, for something like the haskell-in-haskell code that doesn't involve anything IOy but exceptions, would using that exception hierarchy be the idiomatic solution, or what? 03:00:20 no, probably Maybe or (Either t) or some other error monad 03:00:32 compilers typically have to do errors, fresh variable names, and maybe other state 03:00:45 * variable does a jig 03:00:52 haha 03:01:08 what i'll do is, create a module which defines a monad with the necessary operations 03:01:19 i'm used to exceptions being more complicated than just bare strings, too :/ 03:01:19 exported abstractly, so other code can't see the details of how that monad is implemented 03:01:31 could be a transformer stack, could be something else, doesn't matter 03:01:39 GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving for MonadState etc. is useful 03:01:52 Bike: sure, you can use whatever type you like with Either / ErrorT 03:01:52 no errors across module boundaries? 03:02:03 Bike: no 03:02:26 what i'm saying is, the fact that the monad is StateT s (ErrorT e (Whatever ...)) is not exposed 03:02:56 m 03:03:21 you would only expose whatever primitives you need 03:03:29 throw, catch, gensym, whatever 03:03:43 the rest of the compiler just uses those and doesn't worry about the implementation of this monad as an algebraic data structure 03:04:15 IOW i'm saying that monad transformers are a useful shortcut for building monads, but that doesn't mean they should be all over the code which /uses/ those monasd 03:04:20 monasdf 03:04:33 So you'd make your own error protocol? Also I don't even know what IOW or monad transformers are so you're probably wasting this on me, sorry. 03:04:48 IOW being "in other words" 03:04:54 o 03:05:14 the most important idea here is abstract data types 03:05:21 not really anything to do with monads 03:05:45 implementing monads as abstract data types is often a good idea for the same reason as implementing anything else as an abstract data type 03:07:42 -!- nooga has joined. 03:08:45 I think Bike may be wondering if you'd have to use different functions to raise errors from a 'standard' function? 03:08:58 The answer to that is no if you write the monad transformer properly 03:09:44 I think 03:11:27 I seem to lack the ability to phrase what I mean to ask. 03:15:31 right the error handling situation with 'standard' functions is a clusterfuck 03:15:55 if you're using some error handling monad, there's no way to make (say) 'head' produce an error in that monad 03:16:21 really 03:16:28 it is hard to integrate two libraries which both do error handling 03:16:42 that were developed independently 03:16:42 ok, that about answers it, thanks 03:17:15 i mean *maybe* they allow a generic MonadError (http://lambda.haskell.org/hp-tmp/docs/2011.2.0.0/packages/mtl-2.0.1.0/doc/html/Control-Monad-Error-Class.html#t:MonadError) 03:17:18 but usually not 03:17:31 you end up writing a lot of little wrappers to convert between different sorts of error handling 03:17:36 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:17:38 it's not that bad but it's kind of annoying 03:17:51 that's one reason why I say that everything that does IO should just use IO's exceptions 03:17:57 rather than say ErrorT e IO 03:20:09 what's T there mean, by the way 03:20:14 transformer 03:20:20 :k ErrorT 03:20:21 * -> (* -> *) -> * -> * 03:20:39 o 03:20:47 `slist 03:20:47 for an error type e :: *, and a monad m :: * -> *, (ErrorT e m) is a monad 03:20:49 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slist: not found 03:20:53 ^list 03:20:53 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 03:20:54 NOT UPDATE 03:20:57 BUT NEW ALBUM 03:21:27 is MonadError not a transformer? 03:21:33 no, it's not even a type 03:21:37 it's a type class 03:21:42 oh duh 03:21:48 classifying all the monads in which errors can be thrown 03:22:55 it's useful because it lets you throw an error without knowing at what layer of the stack your ErrorT or similar thingy is 03:23:12 and should allow library code to generalize for more users 03:23:26 but i dunno, in practice most libraries don't use it 03:23:36 it makes the type signatures longer and uglier and it requires type system extensions 03:23:41 Dear Hulu: If I press go back 10 seconds 3 times, it does not mean jump forwards 5 minutes. 03:23:46 wait, what extensions? 03:23:58 there's one that uses type families and one that uses multiparameter type classes with functional dependencies 03:24:08 oh right, that's another problem: there are (at least) two MonadErrors 03:24:09 gosh 03:24:11 actually a lot more 03:24:40 the problem is that every monad-which-supports-errors is associated with a particular error type 03:24:46 and the type class needs a way to talk about both of these at once 03:24:54 in standard Haskell, type classes can have only one parameter 03:24:58 among numerous other restrictions 03:25:24 type classes were the big new experimental feature in Haskell and they were somewhat conservative about them 03:25:52 ah. 03:26:39 Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error handling monads 03:26:40 -!- nooga has joined. 03:27:18 the generalization of having thirty RFCs. genius. 03:27:37 the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from 03:32:22 Sgeo: yeah that is the worst 03:32:25 i don't know why it does that 03:33:50 maybe if we just pared everything down so we only had one programmer left, they could agree on what to use. ...but then, they could be sgeo 03:38:33 in a world with only one programmer, Hacker News will still be 40% articles about How To Hire Programmers 03:38:51 i mean it's that much harder! 03:39:56 i don't understand how programming exists as a job market, i mean everybody seems to care about how to hire and how to be hired that i see that more than actual programming sometimes? 03:40:47 well nobody actually knows how to hire programmers 03:40:53 and none of the article have any empirical basis or references 03:41:00 right i mean 03:41:02 they're all linkbait basically 03:41:17 if you want to attract attention to your company, post a semi provocative article about how you hire people 03:41:17 is the programming industry built on writing programs to autogenerate shitty articles on hiring programmers 03:41:21 Ksplice is guilty of this too 03:41:45 https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/how_to_quadruple_your_productivity 03:42:04 oh hey, haskellhaskell has n+k patterns 03:42:20 this got a ton of hate mail from people who didn't understand that intern = paid intern 03:42:32 also a bunch of horrible comments about all the women in those photos, of course 03:42:34 it says "paid" in the second paragraph 03:42:42 Bike: i think that was an edit 03:42:44 see last graf 03:42:45 ah 03:43:35 n+k patterns are... silly 03:43:47 i'm not sure about any stronger negative judgement 03:43:50 has n+k but not irrefutable patterns 03:43:55 Bike: do you know about view patterns 03:44:09 naw 03:44:10 they kind of generalize n+k patterns 03:44:23 How often are view patterns used? 03:44:42 > (\(id -> a) a + 1) 5 03:44:44 :1:15: parse error on input `+' 03:44:45 oops 03:44:49 > (\(id -> a) -> a + 1) 5 03:44:50 6 03:44:54 yay 03:45:24 Bike: you can write (f -> p) and it matches x iff pattern p matches (f x) 03:45:43 sounds undecideable 03:45:48 no 03:45:58 you just apply f to the argument and match that 03:46:01 Well, if f x doesn't terminate, I guess it is 03:46:13 well i mean yeah 03:46:35 > let loop x = loop x in (\(loop -> x) -> x + 1) 5 03:46:38 i guess the ability to do arbitrary computation on the left side of the = is a bit remarkable 03:46:38 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 03:47:27 but guards also do that 03:47:48 functions for all 03:48:09 It basically lessens the temptation to just expose constructors for the sake of ease of pattern matching 03:48:27 This way, you can have an abstract data type, and have a function that turns it into something you can do pattern matching on 03:48:29 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:48:47 that's exactly what the page i googled up said. 03:50:37 one of their example views uses view patterns on itself in its definition, noice 03:52:42 :D 03:53:07 so is this in lambdabot because it's standard now or because caleskell is weird 03:53:31 also what the hell is an "outjection" 03:54:10 Bike: i'd say neither 03:54:19 it's in lambdabot because it's a GHC extension that they decided to turn on 03:54:34 "caleskell" refers less to language extensions and more to strange default imports that hide the standard ones 03:54:38 kay 03:54:43 it's not like lambdabot has any crazy language extensions above and beyond the ones GHC has 03:54:46 ...to my knowledge 03:54:47 * Sgeo wants MultiWayIf 03:55:02 isn't that guards 03:55:23 It's less noisy than a case with guards 03:56:20 also the example they have with an actual n+k pattern being made out of a view pattern is kind of... dull 03:56:59 "fib (np 2 -> Just n) = fib (n + 1) + fib n" instead of "fib n = fib (n - 1) + fib (n - 2)" I guess? 03:59:51 oh i came up with this: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2010/09/view-patterns-for-validation.html 03:59:56 not the first time i'm sure 04:01:17 ooh hey, you mention failure 04:01:26 "monthV (rangeV "monthV" 1 12 -> m) = months !! (m-1)" 04:01:32 That duplicate monthV bothers me 04:02:18 «This "range checking pattern" would be rigid syntax in most other languages. Here it's just something that emerges from the programming paradigm.» Do you like your comments 04:07:04 :) 04:09:39 reminds me that i haven't read kuhn. is that why "paradigm" came to be used in programming that way 04:09:51 i don't know 04:10:14 i generally think the idea of 'paradigm' in programming is suspect 04:10:25 maybe this article predates my conversion to this view 04:10:39 well you didn't write the paradigm thing 04:10:45 oh 04:10:47 well then 04:10:57 as i said, a comment 04:11:35 i guess paradigms are fine, but i'm annoyed when people are like "right, we're using paradigm X therefore everything must be done according to paradigm X and the language must be chosen primarily for its uncompromising support of paradigm X" 04:11:54 ugh, wikipedia's doing that thing where it has a history of the thing instead of a history of the concept of the thing. how am i supposed to sate my etymological fetish this way 04:12:05 to me the different 'paradigms' are techniques that are even more powerful when used together, when appropriate 04:12:20 have you considered using a "multi-paradigm language" 04:12:23 yes 04:12:24 alt. multi-rhetoric language 04:12:29 ;P 04:12:31 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:12:42 " There is still some controversy by notable programmers such as Alexander Stepanov, Richard Stallman[3] and others, concerning the efficacy of the OOP paradigm versus the procedural paradigm." why the hell did i even try looking this up? 04:13:08 yeah 04:14:38 well, kuhn definitely seems to be the one who put "paradigm" into its modern usage, and 1962 is early enough to get picked up by the OOP craze for sure 04:15:01 ok 04:15:07 this is important 04:15:27 but uh anyway that paper is neat, thanks for showing me it whenever you did that 04:15:46 which paper? THiH? 04:15:56 yah 04:16:09 David Baltimore also gets some credit for popularizing / ruining the word 'paradigm' 04:16:30 a biologist? 04:16:36 yeah 04:16:39 and former president of Caltech 04:16:49 THiH? 04:16:55 Typing Haskell in Haskell 04:17:02 Ah 04:17:35 http://www.cripplingdepression.com/index/16 pictured here in panel 2 04:18:13 the wild fast paced life of a caltech administrator 04:18:57 yeah 04:19:14 i forgot why he was deemed to be Moneybags Baltimore but the name stuck for at least the 4 years I was there 04:40:33 -!- glogbackup has joined. 05:52:12 Bike: vectored-return is something else. 05:52:14 I think? 05:52:36 well yeah it's hyphenated 05:52:40 * shachaf isn't going to read the whole thing. 05:52:49 the whole what 05:55:30 scrollbacklog 05:57:36 imo it sucks 05:58:21 help need to force food self 06:03:08 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:03:54 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 06:35:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:36:03 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:14:41 Bike: Lol oop and prodecudral 07:15:19 i prefer unstructured, freeform programming 07:15:37 Bike: What language does that? Perl? 07:16:10 you can structure just about anything 07:16:21 Perl is better described as antistructured programming. 07:16:56 perl has first class functions man, functional as shit 07:17:56 Perl has TC regexes; I fail to see your point. 07:18:36 See? It's basically a Post system. Very computer sciencey. 07:18:58 Anyway. Haskell report calls \ a "backslant". I have never heard this before, what is happening. 07:22:30 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 07:22:47 -!- Bike has joined. 07:23:38 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Cya). 07:53:51 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:59:47 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 08:10:20 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:10:51 -!- ais523 has quit. 08:15:44 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: sleep). 08:15:56 -!- impomatic has joined. 08:33:33 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:13:21 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:57:23 -!- monqy has joined. 10:33:55 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:44:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:45:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:46:18 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:24:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:25:39 shorter "hello world" in malbolge in 78 bytes by kenrube: (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vw/.R,+Op(L&%I#"Fg}Cdz@xw=*z]Kw%ot4Uqpihm,Owi)tfI$c"n`}}]/zZx;W:( 11:26:11 !malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vw/.R,+Op(L&%I#"Fg}Cdz@xw=*z]Kw%ot4Uqpihm,Owi)tfI$c"n`}}]/zZx;W:( 11:26:13 Hello, world. 11:30:37 -!- monqy has joined. 11:31:48 mmm, i guess shinh did it in 75 bytes (! insted on .) at http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?hello+world 11:37:33 i like kenrube's homepage btw (not really sure its his, but it was mentioned somewhere linked to him) - http://www.yyyyyyy.info/ 11:39:12 very good 11:40:13 @remember kmc Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error handling monads 11:40:14 I will never forget. 11:48:41 -!- Yonkie has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:48:55 @quote error handling 11:48:56 No quotes for this person. There are some things that I just don't know. 11:49:01 @quote error.handling 11:49:01 kmc says: Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error 11:49:01 handling monads 11:49:03 @quote error.handling 11:49:03 kmc says: Haskell is a language where the community observes that there are 50 incompatible error handling monads, and the response is 50 incompatible packages for generically handling all error 11:49:03 handling monads 11:52:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:01:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:04:46 -!- nooga has joined. 12:07:09 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 12:07:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:09:05 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Client Quit). 12:13:37 -!- carado has joined. 12:22:55 -!- dessos has joined. 12:36:55 Suggn. remove Brainfuck and its derivatives from the 'low-level' category. 12:38:06 maybe i should say that on the wiki instead... 13:23:28 -!- boily has joined. 13:26:41 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Kolmogorov 13:26:56 is it just me or is this not based on a kolmogorov machine at all 13:29:08 `quit 13:29:12 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 13:29:12 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quit: not found 13:30:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:30:25 -!- boily has joined. 13:32:07 `? HackEgo 13:32:09 HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. 13:33:14 haircut oh no 13:47:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:49:59 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:09:13 Phantom_Hoover: bf is low-level... 14:11:21 -!- metasepia has joined. 14:12:05 Taneb: glad to see you revived since yesterday. 14:12:58 mtve: wow, you spoke 14:13:12 I was starting to believe fizzie killed you and hid the body and was just running an IRC client to hide the truth 14:15:15 boily, the haircut helped 14:24:02 help suddenly I have an idea of why recruiters are the devil 14:24:15 I feel very pressured into making a hasty decision if I get an offer 14:24:43 recruiters aren't there to land you the best job. their goal is to land you *a* job. 14:25:23 elliott, how's it low-level 14:26:07 and what constitutes high-level 14:26:17 i already replied on the wiki 14:32:45 hmm 14:32:53 would e.g. lazy k count as low-level then 14:34:31 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 14:39:29 Phantom_Hoover: replied again 14:39:32 and uhhhh not sure 14:39:39 like I said it's hard enough for imperative languages 14:39:49 i guess SKI is definitely low-level 14:40:02 not sure about lambda calculus, it has a means of /abstraction/ (indeed it's all it has), which distinguishes it from e.g. BF 14:40:36 well I guess you can abstract in SKI too, but it's basically as painful as not abstracting, so... 14:46:12 you can abstract at compile time in combinatory logic 14:47:35 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 14:54:35 -!- carado_ has joined. 14:54:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:59:44 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:03:52 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:18:12 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:23:17 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:23:33 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:24:06 -!- carado_ has joined. 15:24:38 -!- monqy has joined. 15:35:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:38:23 -!- augur has joined. 15:38:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:39:05 -!- augur has joined. 15:43:32 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:56:07 job offer 15:58:43 yay 16:00:23 :D 16:00:45 * boily cheers ♪ 16:02:48 I just don't want to be stuck in a Java career for the rest of my life. 16:05:43 -!- augur has joined. 16:38:45 -!- carado_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:39:20 -!- carado has joined. 16:40:13 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 16:47:42 -!- Bike has joined. 16:58:46 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:23:16 Sgeo: don't worry. even if you begin by being a not-java developer, it will find a way to infect you, to creep on you, to assimilate you. 17:25:01 Sgeo: this is just an internship right? 17:25:11 coppro, no 17:25:54 no 17:25:57 *oh 17:26:02 well then, uh, don't be? 17:28:40 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:31:10 imnsho, java development only sucks when you're stuck with a large, fat, enterprisey project. but then, I believe everything that uses the ‘enterprise’ buzzword sucks. 17:31:36 ^ 17:31:54 boily: Java is only vaguely useful in large, fat, enterprisey projects. 17:33:00 -!- Bike has joined. 17:33:29 coppro, I think I can survive dealing with Java for some time, but I don't want 'some time' to be 'the rest of my life' 17:34:00 don't worry, they'll be a new stereotypical enterprise language soon enough. 17:34:06 And if the only actual 'job' I can list on my resume in the future is Java... 17:34:17 Even if I've done all these personal projects etc. 17:34:24 Bike: the only problem then (for Sgeo) will be that he only knows Java 17:35:08 fsvo "only" 17:35:34 learn everything you can get your hand on. casually mention that you have an interest into uncommon technologies (fsvo uncommon). shotgun new projects, talk and exchange with your colleagues. get known for your initiative. 17:35:42 ^ 17:36:01 Sgeo: The language is less important than the skills 17:36:11 Emphasize the transferable skills on your resume 17:36:52 The best tech firms know that a skilled programmer can learn $LANG on the job, and that having programmed in $LANG does not mean you are a skilled programmer 17:37:19 I'd much rather hire (for a Python job) an intelligent guy who's never used Python than a moron who has 17:43:19 the downside there is that you're in a python job. 17:47:08 the right level of elitism for the job 17:49:22 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:49:27 Sgeo: tl;dr don't worry, just don't mention Java too much on your resume 17:49:36 the point is not that you are developing in Java. The point is that you are developing 17:57:36 i think a better worry than the idea that you might be shoehorned into a java career long-term 17:57:41 is the fact that you will be writing in java every day. 17:58:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:59:00 no human has enough finger length to support a whole-life java career. you'd have to have extra knuckles grafter to your fingertips to cope with the amount of typing. 17:59:06 s/grafter/grafted/ 17:59:14 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 18:00:28 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:00:48 -!- augur has joined. 18:01:34 elliott, there may be some Javascript. Hopefully more as time goes on. 18:02:01 I'd rather JAva than JS 18:02:29 i disagree 18:02:36 I kmcagree. 18:02:38 i'm writing a lot of JavaScript lately and finding it fairly pleasant 18:02:50 Sgeo: yeah uh the fact that you'll get anonymous functions doesn't really make this sound like a dream job to me yet 18:03:02 it has its warts but it's a pretty simple + flexible language 18:03:11 also are you sure they don't just not understand the difference between Java and JavaScript :P 18:03:12 and the community is not afraid of a little FP the way the Python community is 18:03:23 because in JavaScript lambda is practically the only abstraction you get 18:03:26 elliott, I'm sure. 18:03:28 so they use it to build objects, modules, etc 18:03:33 in a way that warms the heart of any Lisp weenie 18:03:42 or maybe Scheme weenie i should say 18:03:53 anyway it's a funny real-world demonstration of the Lambda the Ultimate principle 18:04:25 that's a principle? 18:04:33 Sgeo: are you sure they're sure 18:04:45 kmc: i'd say that's a fairly inaccurate view of javascript's oop 18:04:46 mainly i just can't get worked up about the difference between JavaScript / Python / Ruby / whatever 18:04:53 it's all pretty minor once you know Haskell and C++ 18:05:01 elliott: yeah i'm glossing over 18:05:18 javascript's oop can't decide whether it wants to be prototype-based or not 18:05:26 -!- monqy has joined. 18:05:33 you have transcended the arguments and attained lingual nirvana, free of worldly desires 18:07:03 They know the difference between Javascript and Java. 18:07:14 Incidentally, is Angular.JS fairly well liked? 18:07:51 "AngularJS is what HTML would have been, had it been designed for building web-apps" 18:08:02 i think a lot of JS-bashing comes down to looking down one's nose at Web programmers as "not real programmers" and misunderstanding what the Web is 18:08:26 which is, by far the easiest way to write an application and distribute it to a lot of people very quickly 18:08:50 i too am guilty of this viewpoint in the past 18:08:58 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 18:09:56 I bash JS because it's a shitty language 18:10:03 I think this contract would make actually be with the recruitment firm 18:10:04 not because web programming isn't real programming 18:10:17 ????? :) 18:10:19 I bash JS becaus I think it is badly designed language 18:10:22 you can't program JS without strapping a ridiculous framework on top of it 18:10:26 like jquery 18:10:34 are we talking JS? heheheheheheheehehehhehehe lets not 18:11:03 unrelated notice: please stop referring to "May you live in interesting times" as an "ancient Chinese curse". thanks in advance 18:11:03 * boily prods monqy's hehehe-box to unstick it. 18:11:12 thoily 18:11:14 just talk about men making tigers instead 18:11:19 Bike: now I'm thinking of the inspirational japanese tumblr 18:11:50 wow programming in JS requires the use of libraries? what a shit language! 18:12:10 Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times it's like, all the examples are English language and it was first attested by an English ambassador what a weird coincidence huh 18:12:21 kmc, PHP is totally the best language ever! 18:12:31 snerk 18:12:33 ancient chinese secret, eh? 18:12:36 ancient english curse 18:12:38 No need to import stuff much of the time 18:12:45 Florida Man Arrested For Punching Firefighter In The Groin 18:13:03 Sgeo: yeah it's super convenient 18:13:14 my favorite php libary thing is probably the thermidorian date functions 18:13:23 monqy: we were talking Sgeo's upcoming java job that's going to be lots of fun for him before 18:13:44 Although I must admit it's convenient in languages like Python to not need _third-party_ libraries. 18:13:49 Much of the time 18:13:50 like just in case you want to use a dead 19th century date format 18:14:00 elliott: does sgeo fully comprehend what he's getting himself into 18:14:14 does anybody fully comprehend anything, when you get down to it 18:14:16 Bike: and it's, like, 20th century 18:14:35 Fiora: ancient 20th century curse 18:14:53 still, I think inspirationaljapanese wins the mocking contest 18:14:59 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:15:12 i would love to be the guy who gets to make up some shit as an ancient chinese curse 18:15:21 i wonder what the other ones were before they decided on "may you live in interesting timse" 18:15:22 Bike: it's said that the last guy who understood anything there was to be known was Poincaré. 18:15:33 what regions of curseology were traversed 18:15:34 Uh. 18:15:38 Recruiters are the devil. 18:15:44 and poincaré was kind of a dick. it all works out 18:15:56 Apparently, I'm not entitled to employee benefits that the company provides. 18:15:56 Fiora: my new tattoo means "world peace" *throws a cabbage at you* 18:16:10 Sgeo: didn't kmc tell you to avoid them 18:16:17 wow its almost as if kmc told sgeo to avoid recruiters 20 times 18:16:20 good timing 18:16:29 ok. who here first stumbled upon that inspirational japanese thing. I have this sudden urge to whack them. 18:16:37 Sgeo: Python's stdlib is kinda shit for a lot of things though 18:16:41 like, urllib2 doesn't check SSL certs 18:16:43 and has a terrible API 18:16:49 boily: nope sorry it's awesome 18:16:59 Sgeo: wait, this is like, a full time job, not an internship, and they're not giving you benefits? @_@ 18:16:59 you have to use requests or curl if you don't hate yourself 18:17:20 Bike: it's disturbing my qi! it unaligns my chakras! it's full of glaring and blaring and ugly colours! 18:17:20 boily: no smacking that tumblr is amazing 18:17:20 Fiora, it's a contract job with possibility of full-time job with the company itself at the end 18:17:31 ... that... seems... fishy 18:17:48 boily: http://inspirationaljapanese.tumblr.com/post/40826225940/ this is one of my favorites 18:17:52 boily: rip your qi chakras 18:18:00 chakren? 18:18:04 like kraken 18:18:06 (is kraken plural) 18:18:07 kraka 18:18:10 actual translation: SHINJI, PILOT THE EVA 18:18:46 #japan #japanese #quote #inspirational #motivational #kawaii #sugoi #uguu 18:19:25 Fiora: bwah ah ah ah ah! ok. that site is awesome. 18:19:35 'Tis. 18:19:44 I love it because like, it doesn't do that dumb thing where you put offensive phrases in japanese and mistranslate them 18:19:48 but rather just, /funny/ things 18:20:06 Hmm, this is interesting 18:20:27 It's really great if you understand Japanese. 18:20:30 "apparently my recruiter needs to know if i'm a virgin, for some party" 18:20:58 tell him that you're a gemini, and that it's against your religion. 18:21:00 "Shall we do the Harlem Shake today?" and "live every moment and love every day" Haaaah 18:21:16 It occurs to me that I don't know if it's a good idea to talk about this stuff in publically logged channel 18:21:31 recruiters are known to trawl the #esoteric logs for candidates 18:21:43 Sgeo: maybe you should figure out? 18:22:21 Sgeo: say, if you ever come to Montréal one day, could you wear an orange vest with ‘Hi there, I'm Sgeo’ written in large friendly letters on it? 18:22:33 (so that I can covertly recruit you) 18:22:42 didnt you decide it was a bad idea to talk aout this stuff in a publicly logged channel like two years ago 18:23:28 that decision was publically logged, so he had to discard it 18:24:21 According to this, since I haven't yet been employed by the recruitment firm, I can freely talk about what I know about the company 18:24:24 I thin 18:24:26 I think 18:24:34 wait, they don't /let you talk about the company/? @_@ 18:25:09 They don't let me talk about confidential information I learn after my employment with the recruitment firm 18:25:34 ... what exactly classifies as confidential information...? and um. why is the recruitment firm doing the employing o_O 18:26:02 I don't know yet what classifies as confidential information 18:26:04 sgeos recruiter is recruiting him for the recruiting form 18:26:21 what constitutes classified information is classified 18:26:51 this seems really weird 18:27:05 Fiora, the recruitment firm wants to make money off of my employment 18:27:35 umm... but I thought they get paid by the company when the company hires you? 18:27:43 i assign kmc to this job 18:28:33 The contract with the firm says the company isn't allowed to hire me without recruitment firm's written consent, but that after 6 months, they can be required to give said consent 18:28:58 This sounds really dumb for a lot of reasons. Is it really dumb? 18:29:11 o_O I guess I don't really know enough to be sure but that sounds incredibly fishy 18:29:23 is sgeo getting scammed 18:29:32 maybe the company doesn't exist 18:29:51 The company is the ISP that I use. 18:30:03 I think I'm online and not hallucinating right now. 18:30:17 sure, that's what they want you to think 18:30:23 we are Friday. 18:30:42 elliott is the new number two 18:30:55 ah, so Optimum Online have lots of secrets they don't want us knowing about. 18:31:12 you can't hide from us, CSC Holdings, LLC. 18:31:30 I think this is just standard boilerplate stuff 18:31:38 At least, standard for this recruitment firm 18:31:48 Why would there NOT be a provision covering confidential information? 18:32:06 i don't trust this boiler. i think this boiler is going to explode and kill somebody who is possibly you, and then a three hundred year old witch will arise from the ashes, cursing her colonialist murderers. 18:32:07 um, I think that provision is usually in your employment contract 18:32:13 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 18:32:14 the thing that you sign when you actually get a real job 18:32:21 Fiora, this _is_ my employment contract 18:32:32 I would be employed with the recruitment firm. 18:32:33 elliott: http://img.optimum.net/images/feedmill/custImage/121003/1349293765966-537x261.JPG they definitely seem suspicious 18:32:54 you want to work for a recruitment firm? but I thought it was an ISP... I'm confused... 18:32:56 why would you be employed by the recruiting firm? 18:32:59 btw this sounds shady as all heck lmao 18:33:05 why would a dog have an mp3 player? he doesn't even have any pockets, where would he put it? it just doesn't add up. 18:33:06 how has this not been ringing alarm bells for you 18:33:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:33:18 Bike: thats probably a telephone. makes perfect sense 18:33:26 The people at the company seemed to recognize the firm 18:33:38 I've heard of things like this before, don't they usually do this to hire innocent victims as contractors so they can pay them half as much, and then toss them after 6 months? 18:34:07 elliott: who uses headphones with a telephone?? 18:34:15 also who calls a cell a "telephone" 18:34:18 are you an Optimum agent 18:34:26 u figured me out 18:34:29 i actually call them mobiles 18:34:38 which is a much better name than cellphone or phone or whtaever 18:34:44 since they're not really primarily phones any more 18:34:45 You're talking about witch-talk-boxes? 18:35:33 miniaturized ENIACs 18:36:50 The colloquial Finnish term for them derives from the word for "hand", presumably because that's what you use to hold them. 18:37:57 Or at least the colloquial Finnish term that I know, I'm sure them youngsters have completely different words nowadays. (I sound like an old fart.) 18:38:35 fizzie: you mean "kännykkä"? 18:38:44 nortti: Yes. 18:38:58 Well, or "känny". 18:38:59 is that derived from "käsi"? 18:39:14 nortti: That's what http://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/k%C3%A4nnykk%C3%A4 claims, and it's also what I thought. 18:39:37 Well, from käsi or kämmen, but it's all handy anyway. 18:39:55 heh. trademarked by nokia 18:40:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:40:51 I guess Germans have "Handy"? So it's not so unique. 18:41:02 Bike: hands free 'phones need headphones... 18:41:39 'phones for your 'phones. 18:41:50 Phonemes in your phones. 18:42:24 always tying it to speech recognition, fizzie 18:43:06 I should write down somewhere the things that are concerning me 18:43:10 That's just "speech" in general. 18:43:22 hm that makes me wonder if it's harder to talk on the phone if you use a language with way different phonemes from whatever phone compression is optimized for 18:43:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-excited_linear_prediction I think this is the general category of what they use? 18:44:03 Bike: I'm not sure how "way different" (natural) languages go, really. The equipment is, after all, pretty much the same. 18:44:22 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Quit: Bye). 18:44:26 "The original algorithm as simulated in 1983 by Schroeder and Atal required 150 seconds to encode 1 second of speech when run on a Cray-1 supercomputer." XD 18:44:55 fizzie: well there's ejective constants off the top of my head. i think the human phonemic inventory is at least twice as big as english's maybe? 18:45:58 How long does it take for the PC speaker to move fully? I read 60ms somewhere, and 1/60000000s elsewhere, but neither seems correct to me? 18:47:05 let's see, english uses about 35 i guess, but this language !Xū uses 141 18:47:06 Bike: Sure, but it's not like it'd be all *that* closely optimized for a particular phoneme set. 18:47:26 i guess that's what i'm wondering. 18:48:03 Bike: raw phoneme counts tend to be higher than what is logically understood between speakers of a language. you need to group allophones together. 18:48:29 zzo38: Are you trying to rediscover 6-bit audio through PC speaker? 18:48:35 IPA has "107 letters, 52 diacritics, and four prosodic marks", and I understand it covers things pretty well; and anyway the differences are going to be quite small the more exact you get. 18:48:57 I see absolutely nothing in the employment contract about the raises that I have been promised. 18:48:59 I am alarmed. 18:49:07 also, some sounds tend to be really close by, and the human brain infers what they should be from context. that's how ventriloquists speak, by approximating sounds and letting the ears do the rest. 18:49:18 how ver. strange 18:50:07 Sgeo: No, I mean why would you be employed by the recruiting company as opposed to the company you'll be working for 18:50:10 that's weird 18:50:21 coppro: I did some googling and it sounds like it works like this 18:50:25 recruiting companies are hired to search for contractors 18:50:34 the contractors sign up for the job and sign contracts with the recruiting company 18:50:47 the recruiting company charges the main company, takes a gigantic cut of the pay, and gives some to the contractor 18:50:53 recruiting companies sacrifice virgin BSs to the underworld, and bind demons to contracts with their client corporations 18:51:07 FreeFull: PC speaker is only 1-bit audio; I am trying to figure out how to accurately make an emulation of it. 18:51:11 what's a bs? 18:51:16 bachelor of science 18:51:17 Bachelor's 18:51:30 banks, sganks. 18:52:06 zzo38: Clearly you haven't seen what people have done with it 18:52:08 The LP model (which CELP still is based on) is arguably designed more based on the speech hardware than the speech wetware, anyway. (Though I suppose the "hardware" in this case is pretty wet too.) 18:52:23 Like ocal cords? 18:52:25 vocal 18:52:26 FreeFull: "What people have done with it" is, I think, the reason for the "accurate emulation". 18:52:28 zzo38: Either way, you could look at the way dosbox emulates it 18:53:04 fizzie: The hardware is only 1-bit, but you can push out 6-bit sound with cleverness 18:53:08 Which was my point 18:53:33 Does DOSBox do consider all of that stuff? Also, would some filters be needed? 18:53:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital oh this was that 1-bit audio compssion method 18:54:10 FreeFull: Yes, and my point is that that is the reason why "accurate emulation" is necessary. 18:54:11 Well, it's 1,193.18 kHz 1-bit. If you're fucking clever you could actually dither that up such that the quantization noise is 20+ kHz. 18:54:27 And then you've got utterly reasonable audio. 18:54:48 I imagine what people actually *did* was somewhat simpler, just because of computational resources, though. 18:54:49 zzo38: Dosbox does emulate it pretty accurately 18:55:10 Does Adlib pretty well too 18:55:39 I actually haven't seen any more-accurate Adlib emulation than in Dosbox 18:55:42 I find on the real PC speaker, some high tones play a bit differently than others? 18:55:59 FreeFull: Is that OPL3? 18:56:51 But yeah, I at least *think* what you're looking at is resampling 1-bit 1.19318 MHz audio to 16-bit 44.1 kHz. 18:57:03 Adlib is OPL2 18:57:18 Dosbox does emulate OPL3 too though 18:57:24 O, it is OPL2. Well, DOSBox also emulates OPL3; but does that work as good? 18:57:24 (given how the PC speaker works I'm pretty sure it's PCM like that) 18:57:39 zzo38: yes 18:57:46 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 18:58:19 Crazy high noise floor of course, but what can you do? 18:58:43 I once found a OPL2 and OPL3 instrument maker program, it didn't work natively but it works on DOSBox. 19:00:01 fasttracker II had a pc-speaker output 19:00:23 There's a well-known PC speaker soundcard driver for Windows 3.x. 19:00:44 Although I think pretty much anyone would have been able to make a speech thing clone, and have fasttracker output through that instead 19:00:55 Which would give significantly better quality than any pc speaker 19:02:30 VGM format supports OPL2 and OPL3, and even OPL4, and can even have two of each, but there is currently no support for PC speaker. 19:02:34 I think there's an ALSA driver too? 19:05:21 This OPL2 instrument maker can be used to test instrument sounds for OPL2 and OPL3 (it does support the waveforms of OPL3, but not 4-operator channels). I have already written a program to test instrument sound of OPLL. (Both programs require emulators, but a different emulator) 19:07:02 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:07:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:07:20 Speaking of PC speakers, it seems that these days it's not uncommon to have a (crummy, but still a) speaker wired to the onboard audio chipset so that it can make real sounds without any cleverness. That's the case with both of my workstations at work. 19:09:44 I have a PC speaker in this computer too. However emulation should still be required since some are not implemented perfectly and you might want to run the program on a computer which is not a PC, too. 19:12:39 The different tone of the high notes might have to do with the time to move the speaker, or of the duty cycle (which is as close to 50% as possible, but not always exactly)? 19:15:33 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:17:13 This is different to many sound chips that make square waves, which will use the period for half of the wave cycle instead of the full wave cycle (or, if you can adjust the duty cycle, usually whatever the smallest duty is). 19:30:53 On the plus side: I can leave without penalty as long as I give 5 days notice, and there's no non-compete if I leave 19:31:49 downside is you'll be leaving the recruiting firm rather than an employer because you're being scammed or something?? 19:33:02 I kind of burned a bridge with the internship possibility :( 19:33:03 downside to a plus side? this is hard. 19:33:19 (Said that I'm no longer looking for an internship) 19:33:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:34:01 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 19:40:05 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:44:07 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:44:24 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:44:39 -!- carado has joined. 19:44:48 nice, ipv6 19:45:06 Why doesn't my ISP do that 19:47:11 the day we'll all be on ipv6 is the day ipv8 will be out. 19:49:29 what happened to ipv5 19:49:41 i think that's a dead experiment for streaming 19:50:45 (Version 5 was used by the experimental Internet Stream Protocol.) 19:51:40 :t 'a' :: a 19:51:42 Couldn't match type `a1' with `Char' 19:51:42 `a1' is a rigid type variable bound by 19:51:42 an expression type signature: a1 at :1:1 19:52:48 ??? 19:56:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:59:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:00:27 hellørjan. 20:00:35 helloily 20:01:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:01:42 I was starting to believe fizzie killed you and hid the body and was just running an IRC client to hide the truth <-- i take it this was the obvious explanation. 20:03:19 finland, etc 20:06:03 don't worry, they'll be a new stereotypical enterprise language soon enough. <-- it will be based on haskell, but watered down to be codeable by enterprise drones, in a way that completely ruins the advantages of the language. 20:06:51 like how java is "just" "a" watered down "small" "talk" 20:07:09 oerjan: are you thinking about F#? 20:07:16 Is Scala watered down? 20:07:28 what happens if you water down water? 20:07:36 no, scala is watered up 20:07:38 scala might be watered up java 20:07:40 Homeopathy. 20:07:54 oh yeah. I forgot. 20:07:54 watering up sounds like it means exactly the same as watering down 20:08:09 inflammable 20:08:40 olsner: well F# is based on ocaml... but is it watered down enough to be coded by drones? 20:08:59 -> 20:09:26 ~duck -> 20:09:26 
Usage: (-> x)
20:09:27         (-> x form)
20:09:27         (-> x form & more)
20:09:27
Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the 20:09:27 second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a 20:09:27 list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the 20:09:27 second item in second form, etc. 20:09:48 ... 20:10:00 wow what 20:10:13 the hell does duck do anyway 20:10:15 it sounds fungotty. 20:10:15 boily: and no web browser or file manager stinks, and the extended s42 networking support) 20:10:16 ~duck ~duck 20:10:17 --- No relevant information 20:10:25 wiseguy, eh 20:10:25 ~duck duck duck go 20:10:25 Duck Duck Go is a search engine based in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania that uses information from crowd-sourced sites (like Wikipedia) with the aim of augmenting traditional results and improving relevance. 20:10:46 ~duck ~duck ~goose 20:10:46 --- No relevant information 20:10:48 o 20:11:03 ~duck llama llama duck 20:11:04 --- No relevant information 20:11:10 oerjan: not sure about that, probably just watered down enough to be useless for non-drones 20:12:22 for your late friday enjoyment: http://youtu.be/HbPDKHXWlLQ 20:13:05 fungot? 20:13:06 olsner: of course the command processor's initialization logic. it's pretty easy to do 20:13:15 20:06:03 don't worry, they'll be a new stereotypical enterprise language soon enough. <-- it will be based on haskell, but watered down to be codeable by enterprise drones, in a way that completely ruins the advantages of the language. 20:13:16 I like some things about LLVM but I also think some parts of it are badly designed and many things it doesn't do, the way to fix it seems making an entirely new one, which does not have this problem. 20:13:21 oerjan: i believe you will find this exists and is called "scala". 20:13:26 except it's even more complex somehow. 20:14:08 I was thinking of Curry-Howard with logic having numbers, and I have some idea of it. 20:14:28 It could be, the equality now means a type of a bijective function between finite types. 20:14:50 Is that it? 20:17:10 boily: the sound quality of that clip is amazing 20:18:18 you know i didn't mean "stereotypical" to imply that you should stereotype it 20:19:10 monotyping is just too restrictive, Bike 20:19:21 olsner: I think it is part of the experience. maybe. 20:19:45 boily: if I could choose, I might choose not to experience that part 20:20:06 please tell me "stereo" isn't actually used in type theory, i have enough trouble with the colloquial vs the psychological 20:20:26 Bike: well there's monotypes and polytypes 20:20:33 would be cute to refer to the latter as stereotypes 20:20:46 stereo is two though 20:20:49 elliott: But what if they are more than that? 20:21:56 well you could mean stereo to be a rank-1 type or something!!! 20:22:33 OK, perhaps it can? 20:26:28 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 20:30:06 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:32:38 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:33:12 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:33:38 Is how I described, how Curry-Howard would work with logic having numbers? 20:36:13 except it's even more complex somehow. <-- aka "it doesn't fit my prophecy at all" 20:36:39 the monomorphism restriction seems... weid 20:36:43 I have now finished writing the recording for the Dungeons&Dragons that I played on Monday. 20:36:48 oerjan: :'( 20:37:31 zzo38: you do recordings too? I thought I was quite alone doing that. 20:37:53 boily: I didn't know you do it. Well, now you know! 20:38:24 http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex 20:38:40 in tex too? same here. 20:38:42 stereo is two though <-- the non-sound-related meanings of stereo- have nothing to do with "two". its greek meaning is supposedly "solid". 20:38:57 nooooo that sounds way too usable in types 20:39:02 don't give people ideas! 20:39:09 boily: O, I didn't know that either! Now I do know. But, what macros have you used with it? (I used a macro file I wrote myself for this purpose.) 20:39:30 hmm, how did "solid" come to mean two-channel audio? 20:39:35 ok the picture-related ones also indicate "two" 20:39:41 zzo38: plain old latex. just a moment, let me find where I stashed them... 20:40:32 olsner: it vaguely means "three-dimensional". 20:40:55 boily: OK. Yes, that is what a lot of people use, and you can use it if you want, but I find the other one better. 20:42:05 oerjan: But neither stereo sound or stereo video are three-dimensional (although stereo video is used to simulate 3D). 20:42:26 zzo38: they make the _illusion_ of three-dimensionality 20:42:44 oerjan: Yes, I suppose they do that. 20:43:03 Though ambisonics could actually be said to be three dimensional in some form. 20:43:19 Yes, ambisonics could be three dimensional. 20:43:31 (If you are using three-dimensional ambisonics.) 20:43:32 (surround sound scheme where you basically specify spherical harmonic parameters) 20:44:12 i think each of those get related to "two" because the fact that we have two eyes and two ears means two channels is enough to make the illusion half convincing. 20:44:18 zzo38: darn. don't have them with me, only on my home comp. 20:44:36 if we had three ears, stereophonic sound would require three speaker >:) 20:44:42 *speakers 20:44:48 @tell boily good monday morning! this is myself from last friday. I forgot to forward the logs to zzo38. 20:44:49 You can tell yourself! 20:44:55 I think ambisonics is something like YUV but with audio? 20:45:25 boily: OK, then you can get when you want to, later, if you want to. To compile my file, you will need the file dungeonsrecording.tex which is in the same directory. 20:46:13 oerjan: Well, perhaps if it was, that is what would be called stereophonic sound; but now stereo sound is two channels so if someone has three ears they would still use stereo with two channels, I would think. 20:46:38 Can you have a Haskell program return a unix return value? 20:47:08 Bike: Yes. 20:47:37 main :: IO Int? 20:47:43 No. 20:48:00 You need the library which tells it to return the return codes. 20:48:59 the monomorphism restriction seems... weid <-- it's basically "things that look syntactically like they should only be evaluated once must be able to easily be implemented as being evaluated only once." the rest follows from how typeclasses are usually implemented with dictionary passing. 20:49:03 System.Exit.exitWith :: ExitCode -> IO a 20:49:37 boily: Do you like my recordings? 20:50:01 zzo38: can't read them now, but they look very promising :D 20:50:06 OK 20:51:40 zzo38: yes, that's just language evolving and solidifying though. 20:51:54 oerjan: Yes, that is what I mean. 20:54:43 `run echo -e 'import System.Exit\nmain = exitWith $ ExitFailure 42' > /tmp/tmp.hs && runghc /tmp/tmp.hs; echo $? # just testing 20:54:50 42 20:55:26 Would it make any sense to take the job, and if I don't get the promised raise, just quit? 20:55:47 Or should I be trying to get the raises into the employment contract 20:56:00 Bike: well, that's the plain identifier = ... version anyway. the complicatedPattern = ... version (which cannot be fixed with an annotation) is stricter because it can make types stupidly ambiguous. 20:57:57 as in, if you have (a,b) = something and you need _both_ the type of a and b to determine what the type of something should be 20:58:45 then it makes no sense to have that (typeclass) polymorphic while a and b don't need to be used together. 21:00:35 and the reason why there is no restriction if typeclasses are involved, is because haskell without typeclasses has full type erasure so actually _can_ use the exact same representation evaluated only once, for all types. 21:00:44 *are _not_ involved 21:03:29 `run interp haskell 'main = print "test"' 21:03:35 No output. 21:03:38 `run interp haskell 'main = print "test"' 21:03:49 No output. 21:03:54 *sigh* 21:04:04 or hm wait 21:04:18 `interp haskell main = print "test" 21:04:23 No output. 21:04:27 WHATEV 21:07:30 it has no output, because print :: IO (). 21:07:47 (well, it takes an argument, but the end result is.) 21:07:47 * oerjan swats boily -----### 21:08:16 * boily does that anime thing and catches the swatter with his open hands. 21:08:50 * oerjan is not fooled since he has watched nearly no anime 21:09:59 > print "test" 21:10:01 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ())) 21:10:01 arising from a use of ... 21:10:15 sensible 21:11:01 oerjan: but, but... it's a staple! like the school festival and the beach episode and the power of friendship and...! 21:11:30 I KNOW NONE OF THOSE THINGS 21:11:57 even though you're apparently an anime staple? 21:12:04 * Fiora magical girl transformation 21:12:06 i am? 21:12:21 boily: I don't recognize it either, and I've seen a bit of anime at least 21:12:37 I think there's a trope for that... 21:12:52 oerjan: well catching your swatter with open hands is a staple evidently 21:12:55 yep! that: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BarehandedBladeBlock 21:13:45 i was hoping for a trope about not recognizing anime tropes 21:13:56 Fiora, is your magic want a swatter 21:13:59 *wand 21:14:40 ummm in an RP I'm in it's a flashlight? 21:16:48 Have you seen the anime "Kaiji"? 21:17:25 Is that the one about Go 21:17:35 No 21:17:36 Hikaru no Go is the anime about Go 21:17:40 Yes 21:17:49 you can't use a torch as a magic wand 21:17:51 I forgot how far I got :( 21:17:51 um, I saw akagi and probably should see kaiji 21:17:51 that's just silly 21:18:01 but you can torch a magic wand 21:18:14 Fiora: I saw Akagi too, and I like both of those 21:19:18 but it's a magic flashlight, it blasts beams of light and love at witches 21:20:25 I'll try to sneak something to that effect in our next campaign, and see how it goes from there. 21:20:46 Sgeo: did you get to that episode where he plays Go? 21:21:35 Fiora, so it's like a lightsabre 21:33:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:34:19 Riding Mill is surprisingly easy to get lost in 21:34:25 Did you know they have like 5 village halls? 21:38:08 shachaf: ooh, you almost have a patch in ghc 21:39:04 olsner: Except that someone else wrote it? 21:39:12 I like this situation better. 21:39:28 "This is a slightly refined version of a patch by shachaf" it says 21:39:40 is this the empty class things 21:39:41 er 21:39:43 zero-parameter calss things 21:39:43 yes 21:39:49 does it support adding methods 21:39:51 unlike shachaf's 21:44:12 This sounds ridiculous 21:44:16 Link? 21:46:04 Why doesn't Haskell already have zero-parameter classes? 21:46:24 they're called types 21:46:43 That isn't exactly the same 21:46:45 coppro, wouldn't they have kind Constraint? 21:46:50 sssshhh 21:46:51 Rather than * 21:46:57 elliott: Wait, I hope so. 21:47:00 Can you check? 21:47:04 Otherwise I don't like it so much. 21:47:32 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:47:36 zzo38, perhaps because they're kind of useless if you don't think about them much? 21:49:19 `WeLcOmE {^Raven^} 21:49:22 ​{^RaVeN^}: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.) 21:49:48 shachaf: can you check? 21:50:03 Nevertheless, it seems that they are just another case of the classes, so it should be supported like multi-parameter are; also, they could be used if you don't define the instance until another module 21:50:54 elliott: Can you? 21:50:57 My dad's concerned about lack of specification of how many hours I would actually be working 21:51:37 elliott, have we accidentally encountered eachother face to face thus destroying the universe yet? 21:52:36 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:53:39 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:54:14 shachaf: no 21:54:18 <{^Raven^}> Hey everyone. 21:54:24 What else might be useful is define types local to a block 21:54:25 * {^Raven^} goes back to lurking. 21:54:39 Quoth the {^Raven^}, "nevermore". 21:54:41 {^Raven^}: What is it that you wanted? 21:55:11 I am not psychic. 21:55:14 {^Raven^}: wow weren't you here in like 2005 21:55:18 hi 21:55:24 <{^Raven^}> I used to hang out here an era ago. 21:55:40 {^Raven^}: Well, we changed the logs since then. 21:55:55 Hmmm, I guess my memory sucks X-D 21:56:33 <{^Raven^}> I remember you Gregor and a few other peeps. 21:56:43 Hmm, was I here in 2005? 21:56:47 Good. 21:56:47 I forgot when I showed up 21:56:53 `pastelogs Sgeo 21:57:04 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15649 21:57:15 `relcome {^Raven^} 21:57:15 {^Raven^}, do you remember me 21:57:18 ​{^Raven^}: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:57:27 Hey I was 21:58:33 I wasn't 21:58:41 <{^Raven^}> It's been 8 years, I barely remember breakfast. 21:58:55 Hmm... 21:59:01 I'm elliott's good twin 21:59:05 Do I recognize this Raven person? 21:59:08 Can you believe six impossible things before breakfast, now? 21:59:47 <{^Raven^}> You bet. 5 of them are the alarms I vainly hope will awaken me. 21:59:58 `pastelogs Raven 22:00:05 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10124 22:00:48 Hmm, may have been before my time. 22:00:57 `pastelogs pikhq 22:01:04 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5264 22:01:16 * Fiora waves? 22:02:17 Is there a internet protocol for log in to send/receive SQL commands and response? 22:02:18 hi {^Raven^} 22:02:25 <{^Raven^}> Hey kmc. 22:02:37 zzo38: yes it's called any text field on any PHP website 22:02:41 <{^Raven^}> That was some scary pastelog. 22:02:58 {^Raven^}: No; I mean without website and without necessarily PHP 22:03:13 kmc 22:03:16 {^Raven^}, on my pastelog, I appear and hold a conversation I remember having... about a year before I knew IRC existed 22:03:33 kmc: 22:04:05 kmc: Is there separate protocol, though? 22:06:02 zzo38: I think every SQL server package has their own protocol 22:06:05 i don't know of a standard one 22:06:25 (probably each has several protocols, realistically) 22:07:13 Perhaps a generic one could be made, then. 22:08:11 In case you want to any clients who might connect on the SQL, to be able to operate it remotely. 22:08:35 <{^Raven^}> Oblig XKCD: http://xkcd.com/927/ 22:08:47 -!- augur has joined. 22:09:29 Well, that is how it works, sometimes. 22:09:35 I don't really like USB; it has problems. 22:09:39 need a standard for dealing with multiple competing standards 22:09:41 cell phone chargers have actually become a lot more standard 22:09:53 as have character encodings 22:09:54 i think my favorite version of that is still zzo38 saying he conforms to a lot of stuff others don't, though 22:10:05 Bike: There is, such as internet, we have different port numbers for other protocols. 22:10:22 well played. 22:10:41 internet? yeah, i'd say internet 22:10:56 i guess it is an inter net work after all 22:10:56 <{^Raven^}> You'd have to limityourself to lowest common denominator SQL wchich could be limiting in itself 22:11:10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQmK1CnwOUI 22:11:40 is this better than windows 1.0's ads 22:11:53 {^Raven^}: To ensure working with everything you will, even though some servers may use additional commands, which might work too even though such thing is not SQL standard and not guarantee working everything. 22:11:54 wow he does sound drunk 22:12:11 post your.... photographs...... 22:12:58 Yes there are different standards, but often they don't even conform, anyways. 22:13:02 {^Raven^}, so what have you been up to in the past few years 22:13:30 I don't like PostScript and PDF and Microsoft paper format, so I use DVI. 22:13:53 -!- jiella has joined. 22:13:53 kmc: Not all PHP website is SQL anyways. 22:14:01 SQL is a different programming language to PHP. 22:14:03 * {^Raven^} has been getting paid to write programs for a living 22:14:19 crazy 22:14:21 {^Raven^}: What programs? 22:15:26 For telephone I use POTS. 22:15:44 smoke POTS everyday 22:15:59 <{^Raven^}> Mostly large scale websites. Nothing I'd like to talk about though I like to keep my personal and professional lives seperate. 22:16:08 OK 22:16:53 {^Raven^}, did you get asked the Hexham question when you used to be here? 22:17:17 O, so you don't write any Famicom games? 22:17:29 <{^Raven^}> Hexham question? 22:17:31 hard to get paid to write Famicom games these days, I expect 22:17:42 {^Raven^}, do you live in Hexham? 22:17:48 <{^Raven^}> Nah. 22:17:52 kmc: I suppose you are correct. 22:17:56 How about Finland 22:17:56 {^Raven^}: wait are you the person who made that Lost Kingdom thing 22:17:59 it's more like who doesn't write famicom games 22:18:08 <{^Raven^}> elliot, sure am. 22:18:17 i knew the name seemed familiar!!! 22:18:24 i hear ais523 almost beat it 22:18:55 <{^Raven^}> Props, to Calamair without whom it wouldn't have been possible 22:19:00 <{^Raven^}> *Calamari 22:19:08 Well, I have written one Famicom game, called "Famicom Hangman", but I might write more later on, based on some of the games I have made in QBASIC, but a bit different. However, BIGMAZE might be too slow on Famicom because it has to make up a random maze and it uses a slow algorithm to do so. 22:20:56 Trivia: the "piet" package on Hackage seems to suck 22:21:27 Bike: Do you? 22:21:42 I don't. I am the answer to the question. 22:21:53 I am the Famicomless spoken of in old legends. 22:22:56 <{^Raven^}> So, what have I missed in the lasy 8 years or so since I last logged in? 22:23:51 Underload 22:23:56 Pretty cool esolang 22:24:06 BF Joust? 22:24:53 The... wiki changed host? 22:25:26 The Fancy L problem? 22:25:44 ...fungot? 22:25:44 Taneb: like docstrings or something? :p. ugh i need to find more minor details to fiddle in my toy lisp interpreter turned out to be a 22:25:49 The chat is made up of different people 22:25:55 Oh, and HackEgo too probably 22:26:30 `? Ngevd 22:26:32 ​P=9hR3͂*9߳tm)Ϩٰqu!p \ 5IQx^i8?0BמvaoRWz.qP,'vֆcmC~Ce| 22:26:40 The many names of Taneb? 22:27:16 fax and cheaters' banishment? 22:27:30 Phantom_Hoover's Tumblr? 22:27:38 The harrowing of hell. 22:28:37 cpressey came back to tell elliott to shut up about Scots and then left again. 22:29:28 You missed the new language I made that only I seem to care about. 22:29:34 Oh, you also missed PSOX 22:29:43 PSOX came and went 22:29:44 You also missed cpressey, maybe. 22:29:47 (Another thing that only I care about) 22:30:19 fax isn't banned. 22:30:23 <{^Raven^}> PSOX, awesome 22:30:30 Sgeo, did you read that one thesis on trusting trust? 22:30:32 actually only cheater and dbelange are banned. 22:30:41 <{^Raven^}> A bit like PESOIX only more implemented 22:31:03 Bike, funny thing is, I never actually read it 22:31:07 For all that it's inspired me 22:31:52 well don't feel bad, nobody else has read it either 22:32:00 a lot like worse is better probably 22:32:50 {^Raven^}: you are still too early to miss Feather. 22:33:02 i read the original reflections on trusting trust, it's accessible so why wouldn't you 22:33:08 i haven't read the defeating trusting trust thing 22:33:15 sadly nothing like PESOIX and PSOX has taken off. 22:33:42 http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ this one 22:34:02 <{^Raven^}> I recall someone did write a nice POSIX PESOIX layer. 22:34:04 maybet hat's the one Bike meant. 22:34:13 since the original one isn't a thesis 22:34:17 yeah, that's what i was thinking of 22:34:21 -!- jiella has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:34:42 {^Raven^}: you have also missed /// 22:34:56 And the mass Haskellization. 22:35:16 pikhq, what was there before the mass Haskellization 22:35:26 On topic discussion. 22:35:34 Whoa 22:35:35 everybody were diehard snobol programmers 22:35:35 no there wasn't :P 22:35:38 technically i think you may have missed LOLCODE, i'm mentioning this only to annoy the others. 22:35:50 Eff you. :P 22:35:51 oh and ESME. 22:35:53 <{^Raven^}> I remember writing a few CGI programs in pure BF back then. 22:36:21 -!- jiella has joined. 22:36:32 `welcome jiella 22:36:35 jiella: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 22:36:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:37:33 despite Phantom_Hoover's best intentions, you have also missed a heap of brainfuck derivatives. 22:38:35 oerjan, would you say MIBBLLII is a brainfuck derivative 22:39:25 Taneb: well then it would obviously be in the category, wouldn't it? duh. 22:39:48 It was inspired by the concept of brainfuck derivatives 22:40:32 i recall when i arrived Backflip was one of the first new languages. so since i arrived after you left, you probably missed that. 22:40:58 in fact we've pretty much forgotten it, even though ais523 made derivatives of it. 22:41:22 Taneb: ha, i like it 22:41:32 was Emmental around back then? and Jolverine, those are cpressey languages i recall working on. 22:41:47 and Qdeql. 22:42:01 huh is bckw just a superset of ski 22:42:25 a superset of a subset of ski 22:42:42 oh, < doesn't seem to be in bcwksdkfasd 22:42:45 Bike: a re-basing, so to speak. 22:42:59 is k in bckw the k in ski? 22:43:12 yeah 22:43:18 S is some garbage, though 22:43:21 p.s. single-combinator bases are way cooler 22:43:37 mibbllii has more combinators. clearly software bloat. 22:43:51 you missed Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download 22:44:12 <{^Raven^}> Hmm, looking at the title, are esolangs still on topic? 22:44:24 Bike, BCKW and SKI are similar but different 22:44:24 ostensibly yes 22:44:30 I find BCKW easier to code with 22:44:57 {^Raven^}: the _title_ isn't always on topic. more so now than usual, actually. 22:44:58 {^Raven^}: as you can see the people in the channel still know things about them. 22:45:06 or maybe that's a misuse of ostensibly if it doesn't actually say anywhere that esolangs are on topic 22:45:20 ostensibly off topic, supposedly on topic, actually not usually on topic 22:45:37 also i can't think of a single-combinator base off the top of my head, fuck 22:45:50 Bike, there's Iota's i 22:45:55 i = \x -> x S K 22:46:03 i think zzo38 arrived after me, so all his languages, such as Flogscript 22:46:14 oh, that works 22:46:44 * {^Raven^} has some nefarious plans but nothing that actually has any code behind yet. 22:47:19 is it a bf derivative i bet it is 22:47:29 of course many others arrived after me, but zzo38 was _very_ prolific at the beginning. 22:48:37 imo the topic of #esoteric should be the topic of #esoteric 22:49:06 good opinion. approved 22:49:09 <{^Raven^}> recursive topics, nice 22:50:02 Bike: who died and made you opinion police 22:50:14 shachaf: Gandhi. 22:50:19 oh 22:50:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:51:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:51:14 I didn't say I approved it. 22:51:29 oh, Eodermdrome. 22:52:04 Bike: i was shooting the figurative messenger 22:52:06 wait, why didn't i list it on my article page, i proved it TC 22:53:54 I should make another esolan 22:53:56 esolang 22:54:06 fucktrust 22:54:26 Should it be more Trust-ish languages, or something else? 22:54:34 I really don't have any other ideas :( 22:54:51 whenever you feel inesolangadequate just remember that i don't even have a wiki account 22:55:16 And my first esolang was an Ook! derivative 22:55:27 make a programming language that's a game engine 22:55:52 Taneb, braintrust is not my first esolang 22:56:00 I know that 22:56:02 Just I suck 22:56:42 the interpreter is a game. code is inputted and executed by performing tasks in-game 22:56:45 Going to read some Paranoia Live logs 22:57:13 nooodl_, there was a PS2 game like that, I believe 22:57:18 Only released in Japan 22:58:32 RPG Maker? 22:59:06 I'm still surprised Fueue is turing complete 22:59:40 ...how could it not be. 22:59:49 I dunno 22:59:58 Sgeo: who needs ideas when you have desire & ambition 23:00:07 unless it were obviously restricted like Ftack 23:00:36 (Unimplementable) esolang idea: 23:00:39 It's not just turing complete, it's turing complete if you remove like half the instructions 23:01:13 {^Raven^}: you also missed Fueue, if i didn't mention it yet. 23:01:20 Esolang that would be turing complete except there's one specific calculation that cannot be performed, one program that cannot be run, even by, say, simulating GoL 23:02:24 Sgeo: I don't think such thing is possible even mathematically 23:03:06 Sgeo: seems very hard to define properly while still giving an interesting result... 23:03:06 Sure it is. Just check that no parts of the program = the forbidden program, with an implementation in a super-TC language. 23:03:48 Sgeo: i suspect in that case, you would find it hard to prove any given program _could_ be run. 23:03:54 you have a very curious definition of "sure it is"... 23:05:02 because that program could give you, in an unprovable way, the ability to simulate the forbidden one. 23:06:05 Taneb: oh well, arithmetic is overrated anyway 23:06:08 oerjan: hm i note that for underload, it is not known how to remove a or * from a program, other than by converting it to a turing machine first... 23:07:59 elliott: without a or * there is no way to construct _new_ subprograms, which means if you take the subprograms you start with you almost have a TM by definition. 23:08:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:08:53 seems like there should be a way to do a translation that results in less indirection/program explosion than going through a TM, but what do I know 23:09:05 also, I was thinking of a and * _separately_ 23:10:07 elliott: i think there can only be a constant factor difference. 23:10:28 ok if you do them _separately_, maybe... 23:10:45 a just gives you a sort of added counter ability. 23:11:34 i have thought before that you can remove either a or *, _and_ ~ without dropping all the way down to a minsky machine. 23:12:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:12:41 * elliott is just thinking that it would be interesting to a have an underload program --> :()^ program that works subset by subset, rather than involving a big first leap of conversion to TM then compilation 23:12:48 ...i suppose removing just * would probably allow you to do something resembling brainfuck with unbounded calls 23:12:49 *:()^ program transformation 23:13:00 *cells 23:13:12 cells _and_ tape 23:15:59 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1adb56/wikimedia_enables_lua_scripting_for_page_content/ 23:17:24 thanks 23:18:06 good strikethrough 23:19:05 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 23:22:18 mediawiki markup is a thing of beauty 23:22:28 it's like pointy lisp 23:23:13 I happen to like MediaWiki format too, compared to other wiki 23:23:15 does hackego have a function to spit out a link to the wiki for a given term? 23:25:41 mediawiki is shit and yet i've yet to see another wiki system that isn't annoyingly awkward 23:26:15 `wiki maybe 23:26:16 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wiki: not found 23:26:21 ^wiki maybe 23:26:21 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/maybe 23:27:42 Esolang interpreters right on the Esowiki pages! 23:29:01 Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes, OK, but still I like MediaWiki syntax compared to other wiki. 23:29:03 `paste bin/wiki 23:29:06 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/wiki 23:29:20 helpful 23:29:28 ohh 23:29:31 right im dumb 23:29:36 fizzie, fix that 23:40:18 Whoa 23:40:34 My Tumblr profile picture's cropped so it says "CE CREAMS HER" 23:41:03 a clear case of karma. 23:41:07 sex acts with obscure pronouns are most tolerant sex acts 23:41:07 -!- {^Raven^} has left. 23:41:58 omg 23:42:22 raven's isp hub thing is in sheffield 23:42:28 that's dangerously close to hexham 23:42:36 he was already asked. 23:42:39 That's like 100 miles away from Hexham 23:43:12 look 23:43:19 it's in The North 23:43:28 https://maps.google.co.uk/ 23:43:29 that is TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT 23:43:31 Wait 23:43:35 https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=hexham&daddr=sheffield&hl=en&sll=52.8382,-2.327815&sspn=7.728394,20.214844&geocode=FfnQRgMdcMXf_ykVmDENYpB9SDEEwA0heCs6qA%3BFQmILgMde5Hp_ykVvuj6qQp5SDF4sAav9ScoPg&t=h&mra=ls&z=8 23:43:49 Sheffield's practically midlands! 23:44:00 It's closer to ais523 than it is to me! 23:44:09 i have heard people say nottingham is where the north starts 23:44:17 wow hexham is very Northern 23:44:20 relatedly: warwick is so full of southerners i feel so alone 23:44:54 Phantom_Hoover, that's your own fault for not abusing free university education in Scotland 23:45:03 abusing??? 23:45:24 it's not our fault we're politically disconnected from the south 23:45:41 i think {^raven^} gvae up on us 23:45:46 also gave 23:45:59 oerjan: btw someone should update ^wiki 23:46:05 i am pinging you for absolutely no reason! 23:46:13 someone, n. fizzie 23:46:48 ^src wiki 23:46:50 ^show wiki 23:46:50 +13[>+9>+9>+8>+4<4-]>3.<2-..-4.>3+6.-11..<-3.<-2.<-.>+.>.<-2.<-6.>2-2.>-.<2+4.>+12.<+2.<-4.>-12.>+.<-7.>+2.<+.-.<-2.>2+2.>.<2+9.<+2.>2.>+.<+3.-14.+2.-2.>.,[.,] 23:47:13 !bf_txtgen http://esolangs.org/wiki/ 23:47:53 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:48:07 `interp bf_txtgen http://esolangs.org/wiki/ 23:48:11 what's the hexhammian english accent like 23:48:12 also: wow yorkshire is altogether too big 23:48:19 Indeed 23:48:20 171 +++++++++++++++[>++++>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>>-.>----..<<+++++++.<--.-----------..>>---.<+++.>>-----.---.<----.>++.<++++++.<.<-.>>>+.+++.<.<<+.>++++.>++.++.--.<<. [864] 23:48:28 nooodl_, northumbrian 23:48:41 nooodl_, it's a bit like geordie 23:48:41 ^def wiki bf +++++++++++++++[>++++>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>>-.>----..<<+++++++.<--.-----------..>>---.<+++.>>-----.---.<----.>++.<++++++.<.<-.>>>+.+++.<.<<+.>++++.>++.++.--.<<.,[.,] 23:48:42 Defined. 23:48:48 ^wiki Esme 23:48:48 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme 23:48:55 nooodl_, illustrative example courtesy of google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTfC1BIgTCw 23:49:05 nooodl_, but with a bit of posh English in it too 23:49:16 probably representative of elliott's voice 23:49:18 fizzie: pls save kthxbye 23:49:29 Phantom_Hoover, the Northumbrian accent is mainly further North 23:49:59 oerjan: you picked the optimal article to test it on, too 23:50:09 Starting from Blyth and ending near Berwick 23:50:32 Fading from Geordie to Borders Scottish 23:50:51 yikes 23:51:17 elliott: i know right? 23:51:18 elliott: is this true (ph's link) 23:51:20 i don't really have an accent 23:51:23 -!- augur has joined. 23:51:26 except like vaguely british 23:51:28 ok good 23:51:38 élliott 23:51:50 But yeah, the Hexham accent is somewhere between vaguely british and geordie 23:52:31 i have an accent!! 23:52:46 elliott, i used to think that but apparently my accent is identifiably scottish 23:52:47 I have a ridiculous accent 23:53:15 i don't have an accent, Ø is a perfectly undivided letter 23:53:16 (I'm now imagining Phantom_Hoover with a somewhat confused thick Glaswegian accent) 23:53:29 (all the more confused because he's not from Glasgow) 23:53:34 you are the actual worst 23:53:41 i would stab you but i'm not from glasgow 23:53:54 if only i could hear talk_esme_baby 23:53:55 Phantom_Hoover: well I assume there's some rhoticity in mine. I forget whether it's the rhotic kind or the non-rhotic kind 23:53:57 you know on twitter glasgow is being bombed right now 23:54:01 I also have the worst accent 23:54:16 Bike: twitter has bombs now? 23:54:21 It's a kind of nasal upper class Northern english with slight Australian and Dutch twinges 23:54:48 the hexham accent is thoroughly rhotten 23:54:50 https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/312604111843495936 bombed... by terrorists 23:54:51 that sounds very good taneb 23:55:18 Bike: well that's just regular glasgow 23:55:21 `quote glasgow 23:55:24 460) Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 616) No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 784) Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer So, not like Glasgow at all 23:55:54 hey, i stopped doing it when it became mainstream 23:56:26 `run quote glasgow | tail -c300 23:56:27 over> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 616) No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 784) Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer So, not like Glasgow at all 23:56:34 bo ring 23:56:40 `quote Hexham 23:56:41 623) also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 692) oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? No, sorry. phew How about Finland? Why would I live there? That's a *very* good question. Why would anyone? \ 956) `run quote hexham | tail -c300 23:56:56 uld you? No, sorry. phew How about Finland? Why would I live there? That's a *very* good question. Why would anyone? \ 956) had a fit of a stroke of genius, and google mapped hexham. it's in the friggin middle of nowhere! 23:57:27 `run quote Hexham | tail -c600 23:57:29 623) also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 692) oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? No, sorry. phew How about Finland? Why would I live there? That's a *very* good question. Why would anyone? \ 956) Nope 2013-03-16: 00:05:48 `quote goodnight 00:05:53 No output. 00:05:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:10:43 There's a YouTube page of the music from Orisinal games 00:10:45 :D:D:D 00:10:52 http://www.youtube.com/user/orisinalmusic 00:10:58 wow, that sounds obscure 00:11:17 Fiora: imo finland is a p.nice place 00:11:28 Er, fizzie. 00:11:52 Fiora: Channel law is that you have to change your nick to a unique two-letter prefix now. 00:11:56 FireFly, too. 00:12:04 we've tried that 00:12:10 they won't budge 00:12:18 Bike, orisinal.com 00:12:19 now 00:12:20 i'm sorry, FireFly cannot change, it might cause innocents to be swatted. 00:12:38 Hmm. 00:12:42 Wasn't fizzie here first? 00:12:47 now what 00:12:48 noooooooo 00:12:51 probably. 00:12:52 I wanna keep my name 00:12:53 i'm not the only no* :/ 00:12:56 Sgeo, wait er weren't those stock pieces 00:12:58 how awful 00:12:58 Froia 00:13:13 0xF107A 00:13:15 This isn't a game Sgeo. This is a bunch of games. 00:13:16 sunny day sky, for sure 00:14:04 Phantom_Hoover, well, I didn't know where they came from. Just that one of them sounded like Pachelbel or whatever 00:14:17 be fair, everything sounds like pachelbel 00:14:25 Bike, have you seen the paravonian video 00:14:32 I have seen no videos. 00:17:49 imo oerjan should change his name to make room for all the other øccupants of that prefix 00:19:50 Bike, did I say it was a game? 00:20:20 no, but i felt the need to clarify that it wasn't a game 00:20:21 which it isn't. 00:21:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ZZZZ). 00:23:03 (paravonian video is here btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM) 00:27:26 Willy G. van Hoorn 00:27:38 is that Taneb's evil twin? 00:27:41 Oh, Taneb's not here. 00:39:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:54:28 -!- wareya has joined. 00:57:46 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:03:32 Ooh, I got welcomed. Wow. 01:03:56 `relcome jiella 01:03:59 ​jiella: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:05:26 Is there any kind of rhyme or reason to that coloring 01:05:29 `welcome Sgeo 01:05:31 Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:05:31 `welcome Sgeo 01:05:34 Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:05:34 oops 01:05:37 `relcome Sgeo 01:05:40 ​Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:05:45 `relcome Sgeo 01:05:47 ​Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:06:21 wouldn't it be more instructive to check the source, rather than reverse engineering the amazingly complicated color mechanism 01:12:39 I just wanted to know if it was random 01:13:12 !url 01:13:39 `url 01:13:41 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 01:28:56 http://docopt.org/ can't decide if this is too cute or not 01:29:47 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/Orisinal 01:29:52 is it a joke? 01:38:26 kmc: the problem i see is that it makes you type things in a more human-consumable but timewasty format 01:38:39 when that kind of stuff could be generated from a more succint, less "faithful" DSL 01:39:24 shrug 01:39:29 i don't think it wastes much time to type that text 01:39:43 and it makes the options very clear because it's already in a format you can read 01:39:51 ... assuming the library interprets everything the same way 01:39:54 which is the trick 01:48:51 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:50:35 Yikes. 01:51:10 I think this is getting to be a bit too much. 01:51:17 -!- jiella has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:56:04 couldn't handle the welcomes 02:04:36 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl. 02:06:41 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 02:39:11 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 02:40:30 ^list 02:40:30 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 02:41:23 Sgeo: new album! 02:41:51 coppro, yes, we knew yesterday 02:42:07 I believe I did a ^list for the new album 02:42:08 :p 02:42:55 also this update... 02:44:28 the new album is wonderful 02:44:44 it is 02:55:29 the pocketed planets match up with the Felt who were dead when MC arrived 02:56:51 yep 03:09:51 -!- azaq23 has joined. 03:13:20 Fiora: I think Genesis Frog is still best though 03:13:34 (even though I've been waiting on Eternity Served Cold since the flash) 03:14:39 Credits page still not updated 03:14:42 I love The Lordling, actually 03:14:49 I wonder what flash or whatever that's from (or is it?) 03:15:01 [S] Caliborn: Enter 03:15:23 I thought that was Eternity Served Cold 03:15:23 Eternity Served Cold == Eternity's Shylock 03:15:59 oh. The Lordling has not 03:16:08 Sgeo: Eternity Served Cold is longer 03:16:46 something about the lordling reminds me of Disgaea (I wonder if the feel is intentional?) 03:17:01 [S] Jane: Enter is still considered to have A Taste of Adventure 03:17:12 People complained about the name Eternity's Shylock 03:17:27 yeah, a few people mentioned it wasn't a great name so they changed it 03:17:31 since it didn't make much sense to begin with 03:17:37 I liked it 03:18:14 how is a shylock a thing you have 03:19:00 how isn't it 03:19:01 my favorite is still Cascade, I think though 03:19:07 Slavery is fun! 03:20:00 cascade is pretty damn epic 03:20:04 http://theophany-rmx.bandcamp.com/album/times-end-majoras-mask-remixed 03:20:16 Black Hole Green Sun is my favourite part 03:20:28 though Saviour is very very close 03:20:31 me too, I think 03:20:43 Savior of the Dreaming Dead is pretty great too 03:20:52 oh i should listen to the majora's mask thing again 03:21:32 the sweeping violins take it though 03:22:47 Black Hole Green Sun is something I hum to myself when I'm doing something (e.g. transportation) to meet up with someone 03:57:58 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:58:20 The sound of the Atari TIA is limited to 5-bit period although you can set an additional divider, either 2, 6, 31, or 93, so I suppose you cannot make 12-TET music, but you could use its own scale to make up a different kind of music, perhaps. 04:04:02 Fiora: actually scratch that 04:04:12 my favourite is Buy NAK Sell DOOF 04:05:58 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:06:00 wooow. that's a really good song, I hadn't even heard it 04:06:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:07:19 you haven't listened to Genesis Frog? 04:07:21 highly recommended 04:07:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:07:56 I guess I did 04:09:33 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 04:13:52 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 04:15:28 I haven't listened to Genesis Frog 04:18:39 do it now 04:19:24 I should be eating. 04:19:43 you can do that while listening to genesis frog, protip 04:52:26 -!- monqy has joined. 05:04:38 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:37:57 I wonder what kind of scales could be played on the Atari TIA? 05:39:52 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:42:06 I think it is called undertone series. 05:46:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:46:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:20:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:21:14 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:34:43 ^save 06:34:43 OK. 06:41:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:42:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:04:50 It's tempting to state that with normal non-cloud-based software, you'll never have the situation of an external entity ceasing to support it, but even with an OSS project, if the community dwindles too much such that the project is no longer developed, it may be difficult to keep using that software in the future, as security holes go unfixed, and newer OSes fail to support older binary 07:04:57 binaries 07:06:05 hello 07:06:09 hi 07:06:21 http://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/google-backslides-on-federated-instant-messaging-on-purpose :( 07:06:33 hello 07:11:04 The XMPP thing is unrelated to my comment before, which was about Google Reader 07:13:12 ok 07:14:13 Still, with non-cloud-based open-source software, there is a much better possibility to continue to support it, than with proprietary and/or cloud-based software. With open source, like any software, it is possible to be abandoned, but it can be continued working on later by someone else if they are interested in it. 07:17:46 yes 07:47:48 @ask taneb are you a tactical amulet non-extraction bot 07:47:48 Consider it noted. 07:47:52 @ask ngevd which name do you use these days 07:47:54 Consider it noted. 07:48:06 http://24.media.tumblr.com/b10f1779aa67289af9f2af56c964516d/tumblr_mjqtdtBWVl1r4xqamo1_500.jpg 07:49:46 is that a picture of Bike 07:49:53 I play the game "StarTrek Guess" on X-BIT BBS. It is usually easy by guessing the word due to context, due to knowing some things about Star Trek, and because all the puzzles are given in alphabetical order. 07:50:27 Yes. 07:50:39 If it ends with "-_" then I will try Q, for example. 07:51:23 Would that be your choice? 07:51:31 yes 07:51:44 though probably I would guess Q for other reasons 07:52:00 zzo38: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5tyMXXDPX4 07:52:23 i remember watching that tas. it's a good tas. 07:52:36 which one is it i cant really open links 07:52:39 im "Gonig to Sleep" 07:52:44 family feud glitchfest 07:52:53 ahhhh thato ne 07:52:54 i liket hat one 07:53:00 whys my space doing this today 07:53:02 is it the new keyboard 07:53:25 It is like hangman or Wheel of Fortune, where you have the template with _ in place of the letters. So if it end by "-_" then I will probably try Q as my first guess. If it starts with "_ " and the recent ones were "I ", then I will try I since the puzzles are in alphabetical order. 07:53:47 I don't know why they are in alphabetical order, but after playing this game a few times I realized that it is, for some reason. 07:57:39 Another way to score would be to have the way to bet on a position(s) having a letter, and if it does, you earn bonus points. 08:02:39 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:06:18 Can anyone answer my question about the bijective function types having to do with the logic with numbers? 08:12:13 What is the Curry-Howard of quantum logic? 08:17:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:17:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:56:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:04:10 What is it called, when, if A is less than or equal to B then you can always subtract A from B, although there might be more than one way to do so, and it might be possible to subtract even if A is not less than or equal to B? 10:08:03 I didn't see your question about bijective function types having to do with the logic with numbers. 10:11:24 shachaf: Maybe I forgot to write it? Nevertheless I can repeat. 10:12:02 If you are making logic with numbers, can the type system corresponding include the type of bijective functions between finite types? 10:17:14 shachaf: Now do you know? 10:17:21 No. 10:17:36 I don't think I understand the question. 10:19:09 You may know about Curry-Howard, with functional programming having types of intuitionistic logic. I was trying to think of what it makes if you add logic that includes numbers. 10:20:40 That is what I mean by the question. Now can you understand it? 10:36:49 -!- nooga has joined. 10:38:22 ​585072 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++>+>++++++<<<<-]>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<------.>++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.------------.>>++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++.<----.-----------.<<-----------------------------------.>>>+++++++++++++++.++++++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>>--------.<-------.<-----------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.++++++++++++.--- 10:52:22 I'm not sure. 10:55:59 zzo38: In Idris, if you subtract a large natural from a small natural, you just get zero 10:59:25 FreeFull: Well, that satisfies the conditions, but it doesn't describe everything that is having such conditions. 11:00:48 You could make your own integers that would produce negative values 11:02:00 (If there is an ordering and subtraction is always possible, that satisfies the conditions, but I mean even some things where subtraction might not be always possible, or where there might be more than one possible answer of the subtraction) 11:02:28 (It is not pure subtraction in such case) 11:02:35 (well, not necessarily, anyways.) 11:11:34 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:14:41 I don't mean necessarily only ordinary subtraction. 11:23:30 zzo38: Say, a function that returns a list of values? 11:26:22 -!- carado has joined. 11:27:27 FreeFull: Well, something like that; maybe returns a set of values. 11:27:45 Perhaps if you have this kind of extraordinary subtraction, then you can have the extraordinary addition to go with it, too. 11:28:28 zzo38: Well, could return [] too 11:28:47 FreeFull: Yes, that is what I was thinking of too. 11:28:53 Maybe it could work in the list monad 11:29:06 using guard to eliminate values 11:30:25 I would think it should be set monad, although you could use list monad to pretend to be a set monad. 11:30:54 But I mean there is always at least one answer if A is less than or equal to B. 11:32:29 You could probably enforce that in the type 11:34:33 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:35:57 If a Icosahedral RPG multimana is defined as the multiset of manas, then the ordinary addition is the multiset sum, and the ordinary multiplication is the cartesian product over the multiset sum. Therefore you will have an ordinary subtraction as well. But you could then have extraordinary subtraction, if A is what you have and B is the mana cost, A-B is whatever is left over afterward; there might be more than one answer (or none at all). 11:36:19 You could then have its inverse, the extraordinary addition, which does the similar thing. 11:37:09 In this case, extraordinary subtraction A-B is possible if and only if B is less than or equal to A. 11:37:19 Is the result set guaranteed to have a greatest element? 11:39:05 -!- ogrom has joined. 11:46:49 No, I don't think so. If `- is extraordinary subtraction, then (ug+ur+1)`-u can result ug+1 or ur+1 neither of which is greater. 11:51:15 However, I think that with extraordinary addition (which, unlike ordinary addition, is not commutative), there will always be one least answer, which is the same answer as ordinary addition. 12:11:49 -!- nooodl has joined. 13:05:19 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 13:32:11 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:33:15 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 13:37:01 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:02:37 -!- Taneb has joined. 14:04:19 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:08:04 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:19:19 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 14:21:14 hey elliott: do you still have the link to that page on whch generated sounds from mathematical formulas? i can't find :( 14:24:30 got it: http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/ 14:39:28 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 14:39:53 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 14:39:58 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd. 14:49:14 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:49:19 -!- DH____ has joined. 14:52:58 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:53:03 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 15:17:32 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 15:19:51 warning: fleshlight invasion on the wiki 15:20:07 I have no idea what that is and I really don't want to know 15:21:42 it's kind of like a flashlight 15:21:43 but 15:21:46 yeah 15:23:51 you don't? shame 15:24:13 what are they teaching kids in school these days 15:27:25 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:29:32 -!- heroux has joined. 15:33:28 Arc_Koen: ignorance is not cool 15:36:48 oklopol: I repent 15:37:06 good 15:37:20 a fleshlight is a fake vagina. 15:38:37 WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT 15:38:37 do you think it'll be okay for men to have sex toys too, some day? 15:39:42 Arc_Koen: it's part of my war against willful ignorance 15:40:16 is forceful knowledge better? 15:40:24 yes 15:41:57 goog to know 15:42:16 goog indeed. 15:44:15 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:44:21 -!- DH____ has joined. 15:44:26 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 15:51:29 GOOG, isn't that the NASDAQ code for Google? 15:52:31 goog.com redirected me to a page (in swedish!) asking me how old I am 15:59:47 Even so, something tells me that GOOG is not the NASDAQ code for Swedish porn. 16:03:31 Google's just bought out SexyMse.xxx 16:04:55 When will the powerful Swedish Porn Consortium stop? D-8 16:27:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:35:15 http://ow.ly/j2UQo "If it’s not a cult, then why are they painted grey? And why are they wearing devil horns?" Is this... is this about Homestuck cosplayers? 16:35:19 (I had to url-shorten it because the actual link makes the 'not-sure-about-it' "joke" not work.) 16:44:02 -!- Bike has joined. 16:49:42 -!- Bike_ has joined. 16:49:47 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 16:50:30 -!- Bike has joined. 16:53:28 fizzie, seen it before, and yes 16:54:08 Taneb: Were you, in fact, THERE? 16:54:15 INDEED I WAS 16:54:20 (disclaimer: I was not) 16:54:31 Are you, in fact, "Guest"?! 16:54:32 Oh. 16:54:34 (however, I am going to an anime con in Homestuck cosplay next weekend) 16:54:48 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:55:13 Oh, so you're in a cult. 16:55:39 Indeed 16:55:48 The mysterious cult known only as... 16:55:51 "Homestuck" 16:56:13 I, however, am not one of the horn-wearing grey-skinned ones 16:56:18 I AM SUPERIOR TO THAT 16:56:21 fizzie: I don't know, but I liked that last line 16:57:31 Hmm 16:57:50 One day, some English sports fans are gonna sing "Jerusalem" at a match against Israel and everyone will be confused 16:57:56 Are you cosplaying as Casey 16:58:12 Bike, I actually was almost going to be Secret Wizard 17:01:19 Alas, I am cosplaying Jake English 17:01:46 nice shorts 17:01:50 Indeed 17:01:53 I need to make those today 17:05:48 god-tier? 17:07:56 No, but green bodywarmer tier 17:08:32 good tier 17:09:39 http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/301104_453019734742315_623549310_n.jpg <-- me being Jake English previously 17:10:31 Alas, I am not the best cosplayer 17:10:36 which one's jake english? 17:10:44 The awesome one 17:10:59 oh wow these new spam pages are fantastic 17:11:11 spam pages you say 17:11:22 http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=006906 17:11:25 10 Benefits of fleshlightWhy spanking the monkey at him in private. A Fleshlight is always ready to work and a certain amount of pain. Humor that has some impact on self-identity, gender relations, and many in our choices tend to be fleshlight aiming to provide confidence. 17:11:30 And the news this week that the AAFL are publicly announcing the purchase of the 'fleshlight' for added self-gratification, you'd think they'd realise that expensive set-dressed cinematic sex is soooo-1970s. Aw, hell, he does own homes in LA, Canada, New York, Stony Brook, maintained that Victorian readers would have recognized Heep's physical traits as those of an active Fleshlight. K It's called Fleshlight. 17:11:44 excellent. 17:12:01 These feels markovian 17:12:01 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:GenesisUU wow these are just 17:12:43 get ready to rock with the ultimate handheld fleshlight 17:13:07 That's not illegal -- but it is insignifigant compared to the ribbed edges of fleshlight. 17:13:10 fungot: Have you been writing spam for money? 17:13:10 fizzie: ( it's not in the topic 17:13:58 -!- Taneb has set topic: #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:14:17 fungot, it is now. Will you amend your statement? 17:14:18 Taneb: i agree with you in the past with losing disks and such, and if you're using libxml, it's not useless if you're playing in a different mem location 17:15:36 fungot: That sounds like typical politician doubletalk to me. 17:15:37 fizzie: errr, interactive?) language with the most stupid explaination one can get. in there, quite a few are take home because... " muahaha! nothing can help you 17:15:52 I suppose nothing can help me. 17:17:39 I need to buy what my mum would call a "Hexham hat" for my SATW!Finland cosplay 17:18:35 fungot: how would you like a hexham hat? 17:18:35 olsner: i don't know 17:18:57 I think that shop opposite the witch sells them 17:19:05 But they use really foul perfume in the shop 17:19:09 So I don't want to go in 17:19:12 Taneb: Is that a village witch? 17:19:22 It's a town witch I'm afraid 17:19:41 I guess it's as good. Does curses and so on? 17:20:39 ^style 17:20:39 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 17:20:40 I just saw that Oz thing (we had due-to-expire-soonishly Christmas present theater tickets), speaking of witches. 17:21:08 `? fungot 17:21:08 olsner: it may be too clever; i'm not sure i like 17:21:15 * ais523 likes the idea that hexham has an official witch position, and they presumably need to advertise for a new witch if the existing witch retires or moves out of town 17:21:19 fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone. 17:21:51 Wicked Witch of the Hexham. 17:24:41 ais523: I think witches usually die in office 17:24:42 like the pope 17:25:06 elliott: "retired witch" is too awesome a job description not to have it in my mental image 17:25:58 I think many retired witches still do part-time witchery to kill time. 17:29:23 elliott, would you go into that shop and buy me a hat 17:29:34 Then leave it in a pre-determined pick-up point 17:29:54 but that involves going outside 17:29:59 big commitment 17:30:37 elliott, you can do it 17:30:39 I believe in you 17:30:46 how about you do it on my behalf 17:30:46 Despite the lack of secondary sources 17:31:00 But I don't like going into that shop! 17:31:03 The perfume!!! 17:31:13 (I have a crippling fear of perfume) 17:31:16 use a gas mask 17:31:33 But where would I find a gas mask in Hexham! 17:31:40 um in the bomb shelter 17:31:40 Think these things through, olsner 17:31:44 At the hat store. 17:31:52 Isn't it kind of a hat? 17:31:59 anyway i am pretty sure this is just a plot by Taneb to find out what i look like 17:32:02 by hiding in the shop 17:32:19 Nah, it's a plot by Taneb to avoid going into the shop 17:32:28 elliott: I think that you'd find a comical net-and-a-tree kind of a trap at the hat pick-up point. 17:32:35 I already know you look like a 12 year old girl 17:33:22 that is possibly not quite accurate any more 17:33:59 Do you look like a 14 year old girl 17:34:10 um 17:34:13 maybe? 17:34:15 Or possibly one of those box things, propped up with a stick, with a theorem prover or something inside. (I don't know what they use as bait in elliott traps.) 17:34:30 Or do you look like that guy in that play I saw last night 17:34:34 You do, don't you 17:34:48 i was in no play 17:35:18 fizzie: possibly a rabbit, I have a habit of trying to follow them 17:36:27 -!- Bike_ has joined. 17:36:32 A rabbit, dead or alive? 17:36:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:37:21 There was something about an inverted pyramid of rabbits. 17:38:27 I have a disk with Solaris 2011 on it 17:38:29 Would that work 17:39:16 Solaris is made out of Iblis and Mephiles. 17:39:25 hm i might actually try and steal a solaris disk 17:39:30 *disc 17:39:34 unlses it's actually a disk 17:39:43 It's a disq. 17:39:52 me too 17:40:29 Maybe the forthcoming holocube media (isn't that the future?) are going to be called disqs. 17:55:12 -!- ogrom has joined. 17:56:37 elliott: did you block GenesisUU? I only see the deletions 17:56:51 or are you hoping for more awesome language names? 17:58:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:58:03 (Block log); 17:13 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) blocked GenesisUU (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, e-mail disabled, cannot edit own talk page) ‎(Spamming links to external sites) 17:58:22 boring 17:58:24 fascist 17:58:26 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 17:58:44 yes 17:58:45 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:58:56 Bike: if you want i'll make you a sysop so you can unblock them! 17:58:58 (probably not) 18:04:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:07:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:07:53 *GASP* 18:08:04 fungot: how COULD you 18:08:04 oerjan: runtimeerror fnord' codec can't decode bytes in position 1-2: illegal multibyte sequence) really... i would have exported. oh well. only on l2 l3)) 18:08:10 oerjan: it's ok the spam was really good 18:08:15 oh. 18:08:31 food -> 18:11:37 fungot: Are you have character set problems? 18:11:37 fizzie: i am a pissed off fnord, but it needs an extra field per object and a list 18:11:48 Uh-kay. 18:12:23 hrm. What's the point of spam where the spammer pretends to be a female who wants to start a relationship? 18:12:48 Sgeo: to get responses 18:12:56 Possibly also to scam money? 18:13:00 just getting someone to respond to spam at all is something of a victory for a spammer 18:13:01 For "plane tickets" or whatever. 18:13:13 fizzie: yes, that would be a plausible followup 18:13:32 but having a conversation with someone about anything at all gives you more of an opportunity to scam them, than if they ignore everything you say 18:13:38 Or for the medical expenses of a badly ill mother, or something. 18:13:48 pissed off fnords are the scariest 18:13:53 Or possibly a stove. 18:14:06 Cf. http://www.joewein.net/spam/spam-elena-needs-woodburning-oven.htm 18:15:07 I've gotten a few of those requests for the "wood burning stove". 18:15:59 Actually, there's a hilarious sentence here, I'm going to pastie the spam 18:16:30 "Dear ICS doctoral students -- Please register and participate! Interesting talks, good company, free food!" I see they get their "how to get doctoral students to attend" strategy from PhD comics. 18:16:30 actually, I wonder what sort of success rates you could get preying on spammers 18:16:54 many of them will be more gullible than average, and there's no problem in starting a conversation with them 18:16:55 http://pastie.org/private/bkc3kimpstoepmjsag0vq 18:16:56 ais523: 419eaters was pretty popular at some point 18:16:59 ais523: 419- yes 18:17:05 Bike: yeah but it wasn't trying to make an income 18:17:08 just embarrass people 18:17:13 (I censored the email) 18:17:25 "Many Humans began their relationship through correspondence. And so I decided to try it." 18:17:31 Clearly she's an alien. 18:17:33 i wonder what the economic situation of your average 419 scammer is 18:17:36 don't you believe in love 18:17:36 actually I've seen a theory that many of the really really obvious scam attempts are the result of people who'd been scammed into buying into "get rich quick by scamming people" scams 18:17:39 a sort of metascam 18:18:00 Sgeo: um how am i meant to reply to juliya if you cut out the email 18:18:08 the scam that gets sent out to the public doesn't have to work, it just has to be good enough to convince the victim scammer it will work 18:18:08 elliott: back in the day it was not good, so 419eating got a bit controversial, since you were like tricking poor nigerians into fucking themselves 18:18:21 a sense of... proportion 18:18:44 419eater and its operatives was profiled on the September 9th, 2008 episode of Public Radio's This American Life,[3] specifically one particular bait that ran for 100 days starting in April 2008 and involved sending a scammer named Adamu from Lagos, Nigeria to Abéché, Chad, a dangerous and politically unstable region.[4] 18:18:57 looks like my intuition of them probably actually being dicks is accurate 18:19:06 yeah 18:19:16 I don't get why you'd trick a scammer into going to Chad anyway 18:19:32 you can get equally amusing results without putting the scammer in danger 18:19:55 well i'm not sure this attitude views the scammers as real people 18:20:16 but they are 18:20:31 in a way they're realer than other people, because you can talk to them and have some sort of idea that they exist 18:20:32 wow you could get a phd in philosophy with insights like that 18:20:45 there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists 18:21:03 i'll notify 419eaters' bayesian division immediately 18:22:24 did you see the thing about how scammers will identify as nigerian even when they aren't 18:22:36 in order to quickly do away with anyone who is even slightly suspicious 18:22:43 kmc: the idea is to get the most gullible people to respond, right? 18:22:47 yes 18:22:56 gullible / ignorant / whatever 18:22:59 I love the idea that you should appear as untrustworthy as possible to get /the most trusting responses/ 18:23:19 yeah 18:23:24 it makes sense, really 18:23:28 it's the kind of thing that doesn't make any sense unless the number of people receiving your message is gigantic 18:23:32 I remember a TV show in the UK which needed gullible contestants 18:23:36 i read a neat article on how nigerian scammers were viewed in their societies, lemme find it 18:23:42 ais523, Deal or No Deal? 18:23:44 Speaking of curious things about spam, what I think a bit strange is the ones that are trying to sell some really specific product. Like all the chinese companies selling PCB manufacturing, or the one who wanted to sell me... I forget exactly what it was, maybe earthmoving equipment. Or concrete-mixing trucks. Anyway, something that presumably would (a) not interest a vast majority of ... 18:23:49 maybe this is like putting armor on the parts of your planes where the ones that come back /don't/ have bullet holes 18:23:50 so it started out with a trial period that selected for gullibility 18:23:51 ... recipients, and (b) would hopefully not be purchased based on random spam emails. 18:24:02 ais523: was that the one where they pretended to send them into space 18:24:03 (presumably they told the contestants they were selecting for something else, the people who were actually gullible would believe them) 18:24:05 kmc: yes 18:24:12 i remember that one 18:24:16 british TV can be hilariously mean 18:24:17 I don't 18:24:24 didn't they figure it out before it was over and so it was kind of a letdown 18:24:26 Linky to info? 18:24:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Cadets_(TV_series) 18:24:42 elliott: no, they didn't all; several of them did but they were removed from the show via some excuse or another 18:25:01 also they snuck all the past contestants on board the spacecraft temporarily, while it was allegedly in space, just to see if they could 18:25:03 thelliott 18:25:06 ugh, wikipedia, i don't care about 419s in some tv show 18:25:16 fizzie: "Dear manager: This is Emily from China. Glad to hear that you"re in the field of wire mesh. We specialize in WIRE MESH for many years" 18:25:23 i keep getting this one 18:25:29 this reminds me of BlogNomic getting spam about stone crushers, specifically 18:25:32 it comes with some nice photos of wire mesh 18:25:55 kmc: "We, Sanitek Co., Ltd specializes in the field of Ozone purification systems for air, water, waste water, agri-food and gas liquid mixing technology for industrial, commercial and municipal applications." 18:25:58 blagh. 18:26:04 Indeed, during the shooting of Space Cadets, smokers amongst the production crew were given Russian cigarettes to smoke in case any of the cadets discovered the butts. 18:26:06 That's from my inbox right now. 18:26:11 this seems rather overkill if the idea is that they are as gullible as possible 18:26:27 elliott: the overkill was to make it more fun for the people watching 18:26:30 I'm pretty sure 18:26:33 ...I've just realised that one of the Haskell libraries I've created really treads on zzo38's toes 18:26:42 elliott: if they were actually clever, they would know you can get western cigarettes in russia 18:26:54 kmc: right i was thinking they could just say "oh yes, british cigarettes are the best in the world" 18:27:02 so it only works on dumb people who think they're clever 18:27:05 kmc: Also it too comes with "ozoneboy sanitek(10-22-08-49-56).jpg", but I'm not sure I want to check it out. 18:27:14 ozoneboy! 18:27:28 fizzie: first two authors in my spam folder: "Ellen DeGeneres weight loss Free Sample", "No risk Ellen DeGeneres Promo" 18:27:29 elliott: overkill is inherently entertaining, don't you agree? 18:27:31 sensing a theme here 18:27:37 "Stereotyped characters, including a slow-talking Royal Air Force Squadron Leader with a luxuriant handlebar moustache" 18:27:40 ais523: yes, your explanation makes sense 18:27:55 oh, I was just thinking in general, not trying to argue my point further 18:27:57 zzo38, if you make monoidplus depend on groups I'll give you an e-hug 18:28:07 like, overengineered programs are usually less useful than more typical prorgams 18:28:09 *programs 18:28:13 but they're also more awesome 18:28:20 "Your Liberty Reserve Account Has Been Blocked!" 18:28:21 oh no! 18:28:30 where will I keep my liberty now? 18:28:46 also "PRESIDENT JOHN" has emailed me 18:28:54 HELLO 18:28:54 Do not be suprised and please forgive me If this business proposition offends your moral values 18:29:00 John is a perfectly reasonable name for a president 18:29:15 I get spam emails about conferences on my university account, which makes sense really because I'm known to have written papers 18:29:20 @tell zzo38 if you make monoidplus depend on groups I'll give you an e-hug 18:29:20 Consider it noted. 18:29:27 the spam on nethack4.org is mostly about search engine optimization, which also makes sense 18:29:41 it's hilarious how blatant it is about their methods 18:29:42 I like the Double hoax ideas 18:29:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dramani_Mahama apparently its this dude 18:30:01 someone emails me asking for money to spam 2 million blog comments pointing at my website… 18:30:09 Sgeo: what's a double hoax? 18:30:17 elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodluck_Jonathan 18:30:20 Greetings! 18:30:20 It has come to our attention that you are trying to sell your personal Diablo III account(s). 18:30:29 just sayin' 18:30:37 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 18:31:01 my Diablo III account got banned :( 18:31:13 coppro: why? 18:31:16 ais523, the Wikipedia page for Space Cadets notes that some thought that maybe the hoax was on the viewers, tricked into thinking that the participants were gullible and not just actors 18:31:19 Bike: that is a great name 18:31:21 I don't know. I didn't know I had one 18:31:27 I just got an email saying I got banned :( 18:31:34 'As the attention to detail in the hoaxed environment became clear, some viewers expressed suspicions in particular on Channel 4's message board for the programme that the entire show, including the apparent gullibility and abject ignorance of the Cadets, was in fact a double bluff; all the Cadets were actors and that the real target of "the biggest prank in television history" was the "gullible" viewing public.' 18:31:56 Sgeo: the most common such theory I saw was that the spaceship was actually in space, which seems dubious 18:32:05 i get a lot of phone calls telling me there are presently no problems with my current credit card plan but 18:32:07 I like the "everyone is an actor" theory, though 18:32:16 it wouldn't change the show in my view at all 18:32:26 Also here's my latest spam; it's a nice hybrid of both the "40% of $5.6million" *and* the "I am 28 years old and i am Single" approaches: http://sprunge.us/ABRd 18:32:34 Maybe I should watch it 18:32:41 coppro: oh, it was lying? 18:32:58 ais523: spam, I imagine 18:32:59 ;) 18:32:59 ais523: I like the idea that Channel 4 would send a spaceship into space just to mses with people 18:33:02 `addquote there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists 18:33:07 982) there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists 18:33:23 elliott: so do I 18:33:32 fizzie: cool, a yak emailed you 18:33:34 kind of a shame the average nigerian isn't named Goodluck, when you think about it. 18:34:00 elliott: "Showing results for 'ancient yak'. Search instead for 'ancitt yak'." 18:34:21 elliott: I guess yet another theory is that the production crew believed that the contestants were gullible 18:34:33 but the contestants had actually worked it out and were acting in order to fool the production crew 18:34:53 fizzie: that is one weird-ass email 18:35:23 ais523: what if the contestants knew that the production crew knew that they were pretending that they knew that they knew that the production crew believed that they were pretending it wasn't fake? 18:35:27 elliott: http://waronspam.com/dearest-greetings/ hey, Miss Yak has also written to this other guy, and there she says she's 25 years and offers $55.6 million. 18:35:30 and were just pretending that they didn't? 18:35:54 fizzie: well she has to spend the money obviously 18:35:56 elliott: that reminds me of a Mafia game I played 18:36:12 where I was Mafia and I had a private communication channel with someone else who was also Mafia, but on a different team 18:36:55 we both knew the other was mafia, but were pretending not to, and we both knew the other knew we were Mafia, but we won because I managed to fool the other person into thinking I didn't realise he knew I knew he was Mafia 18:37:16 help 18:37:19 fizzie: actually, something that annoys and confuses me: you know those dating adverts where they tell you about people in your local area who want to meet you? 18:37:25 ais523, that's ridiculous 18:37:30 I've occasionally seen two, on the same page, different names but the same photo 18:38:03 ais523: It would be extra work to avoid that. 18:38:06 man, the best i've done is win Bullshit by lying when i didn't have to. 18:38:31 fizzie: yeah but it rather ruins the impression that the adverts are trying to give 18:38:50 i think the best game is kilgame 18:39:37 My other address seems to have gotten mostly SEO and "cheap Facebook likes" spams now. 18:40:02 The Facebook likes are "Manually Promoted by experts not bots/software involved". 18:40:12 fungot: Do you sell any Facebook likes? 18:40:12 fizzie: i also agree with riastradh high ( or one might call it low/ deep level) stand. and there's no agora war ( between the vertices 12 and 14? 18:40:56 The SEO offer says they'll have "100 EDU Backlinks" and "15 PR 5-8 Web 2.0 Profile Backlinks". 18:41:03 scanl is the fast one rigth 18:41:06 oerjan: hel 18:41:06 p 18:41:15 Oh, it's the same company that's also selling the Facebook likes. 18:42:19 "Subject: We send the Ph.D and College certificate to all countries, bay today qualitatively, not expensively" 18:42:23 I'll certainly bay today. 18:42:47 qualitatively or expensively? 18:43:18 I usually bay qualitatively. 18:43:56 "Hello Fizzie, Just change your style depending on your mood: the past you were a commerce lady, now you just want to wear jeans and a top and tomorrow you require to dress up for an vital banquet." 18:44:00 I don't think I've ever been "a commerce lady". (Is that slang for a prostitute?) 18:44:54 "Hello! My name is Tanya , I am lonely russian woman from Ulyanovsk." 18:45:00 ais523: you should bring up that mafia game the next time someone posts one of those "there are n people; you tell them something that triggers one of their customs and after n days something bad happens" puzzles 18:45:02 nice place 18:45:17 I've got two other Tanyas in my spam folder 18:45:38 oerjan: I think I figured those puzzles out 18:45:43 elliott: scanl is pretty fast i think, as long as you consume the list in order 18:45:56 oerjan: right. and scanr isthe inefficient one? 18:45:58 @src scanl 18:45:58 scanl f q ls = q : case ls of 18:45:58 [] -> [] 18:45:58 x:xs -> scanl f (f q x) xs 18:45:58 @src scanr 18:45:59 scanr _ q0 [] = [q0] 18:45:59 scanr f q0 (x:xs) = f x q : qs 18:46:00 where qs@(q:_) = scanr f q0 xs 18:46:41 the idea is that although you know that there are either 50 or 49 people in a particular state, you don't know whether the other people agree with you, or believe it's 49 or 48, and those people must be wondering about the (incorrect) possibility that you're believing it's 48 or 47, and so on down to 0 18:46:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:46:50 so there's a day's delay for each level of indirection 18:46:54 is that the blue eyed island puzzle? 18:46:58 Bike: yes 18:47:01 or various variants of it 18:47:02 good puzzle 18:49:02 elliott: i don't know about inefficient, i suspect they have similarities to foldl and foldr so it all depends on the strictness of the combining function? 18:49:45 IIRC it's kind of dual 18:49:49 as in, you usually want foldr and scanl 18:49:57 and also scanl1 is total. 18:50:28 well scanl gives you the resulting list elements quickly if the combining function is strict 18:50:47 but i suspect scanr will be the other way around? 18:51:26 that is, _neither_ necessarily needs to go to the end of the list to produce anything, but scanl always produces the first element fast 18:51:41 while scanr needs the combining function to be lazy 18:51:56 > scanr f x [1..10] :: Expr 18:51:58 Couldn't match expected type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr' 18:51:58 w... 18:52:07 now what 18:52:10 :t scanr 18:52:12 (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> [b] 18:52:30 > scanr f x [1..10] :: [Expr] 18:52:32 [f 1 (f 2 (f 3 (f 4 (f 5 (f 6 (f 7 (f 8 (f 9 (f 10 x))))))))),f 2 (f 3 (f 4... 18:52:57 > scanr f x [1..3] :: [Expr] 18:52:57 that's perfectly well defined even for an infinite list if f is lazy 18:52:59 [f 1 (f 2 (f 3 x)),f 2 (f 3 x),f 3 x,x] 18:53:25 (well, lazy productive) 18:53:40 and f not only has to be lazy, but also capable of returning a result without investigating its second argument, at some point 18:53:59 ais523: ... 18:54:06 are you aware of the definition of non-strictness? 18:54:18 elliott: yeah but it has to look at at least one of its arguments 18:54:23 to be interesting 18:54:36 my point is that it has to be lazy in the second argument in particular 18:55:04 oerjan: I think I figured those puzzles out <-- i meant bringing them up to the people who inevitably say those puzzles are nonsense in practice 18:56:07 oerjan: all sorts of things get people saying that about them 18:56:30 and it wasn't a that in-practice situation, only non-game situation I can think of where that might happen is international diplomacy 18:57:13 what about business? 18:57:27 > iterate f 0 18:57:29 Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints: 18:57:29 (GHC.Num.Num a0) 18:57:29 a... 18:57:30 hmm, I guess that's similar 18:57:33 > iterate (f x) 0 18:57:33 oerjan: something about them being the same thing 18:57:35 Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints: 18:57:35 (GHC.Num.Num a0) 18:57:35 a... 18:57:42 > iterate (f x) 0 :: [Expr] 18:57:45 [0,f x 0,f x (f x 0),f x (f x (f x 0)),f x (f x (f x (f x 0))),f x (f x (f ... 18:58:28 > scanr const undefined [1..] 18:58:30 [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28... 18:58:39 -!- carado has joined. 19:00:06 > iterate f (0 :: Expr) :: [Expr] 19:00:08 [0,f 0,f (f 0),f (f (f 0)),f (f (f (f 0))),f (f (f (f (f 0)))),f (f (f (f (... 19:00:37 FreeFull: ambiguity means "please add type annotation so I can guess which type you are trying to use" 19:01:44 I get that 19:01:46 (unless you're using lens which is ridiculous) 19:02:02 (actually, even if you're using lens) 19:02:20 > [1,2,3] ^. traverse 19:02:21 Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints: 19:02:21 (GHC.Num.Num a0) 19:02:22 a... 19:02:31 > views traverse Sum [1,2,3] 19:02:33 Sum {getSum = 6} 19:03:52 somehow it disturbs me that Taneb already understands haskell this well :P 19:04:14 oerjan: hasn't it been like a year since he started learning 19:04:20 oerjan, Haskell is what I waste all my time with 19:04:44 elliott: i'm not used to him having been around here for that long yet 19:04:49 elliott: hmm… there are more distinctions than just "lazy" and "strict", I think 19:05:10 I can imagine a function that's strict in both arguments but doesn't evaluate the second argument until after it's finished processing the first 19:05:18 this distinction doesn't matter in Haskell, but it's important in languages like Verity 19:06:08 Are you contemplating dangerous hybrids of Strict and Lazy? 19:06:28 oerjan, and I didn't really have much imperative coding background 19:06:43 oerjan, AND I had been messing with lambda calculus before I switched to Haskell 19:06:51 ais523: even seq doesn't guarantee it with ghc, so they had to add pseq which does 19:07:31 ...that helps. i'd been doing unlambda... 19:07:31 oerjan: oh right, I forgot about seq 19:08:00 elliott: anyway, upshot is I can mentally consider a function as lazy even if it's strict in every argument 19:08:05 seq makes things strict, but still doesn't guarantee any order of strictness 19:08:24 ais523: you are just providing more data for hypothesis "ais523 is crazy" 19:08:39 elliott: no, your mind's been warped by Haskell 19:08:43 into not considering details that Haskell elides out 19:09:18 * elliott is perfectly well accustomed with different evaluation orders and purities tyvm 19:10:35 ais523, is Space Cadets a good show? 19:10:46 seq is like a binder 19:10:58 Sgeo: not really; I enjoyed it but I'm not sure I'd recommend it to everyone 19:11:03 I think it worked better live 19:11:13 because everyone was hoping the whole thing would collapse 19:11:46 FreeFull, binder as in things you put papers in, or binder as in things to aid biological females appear male 19:11:52 Or binder in a third sense 19:12:00 Taneb: third sense, I think 19:12:23 binder as in something that combines a function and arguments 19:12:27 It takes two things and joins them into one thing 19:12:31 (not a good definition, but that sort of thing) 19:12:56 I'm thinking a binder for thunks maybe? 19:21:20 FreeFull: the lack of order guarantees i mentioned means it is dangerous to think of it as any _specific_ thunk composition. thunks are an implementation strategy, which ghc generally tries to optimize away or move around whenever the _actual_ language semantics don't require them. 19:22:12 the official definition of seq is that seq "bottom" x = bottom, seq non-bottom x = x 19:23:19 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:23:50 That definition of binder is nothing like the previous two! 19:25:52 Just seen on Tumblr: 19:26:09 "Aren't we /all / internet explorers?" 19:26:23 "...do you mean we run slow and people don't like us?" 19:26:24 the NeXT was in you all along 19:26:32 "That's exactly what we are" 19:26:38 * oerjan suddenly realizes that "binders" in english doesn't mean paper clip, and wonders how it got borrowed into norwegian meaning that 19:28:30 http://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/hardlyquin-2 -- oerjan's current emotional state in Homestuck music 19:28:53 oerjan: it has a very vaguely similar meaning 19:28:58 ais523, this is educational, kind of 19:29:09 Sgeo: what, the program, are you watching it? 19:29:19 in what way do you find it entertaining? 19:29:44 It's showing something they're calling the 'jar test', to measure whether the contestants are likely to conform 19:31:15 I've been wondering if that test actualyl works 19:31:17 *actually 19:31:35 they should just submit everybody to milgram to traumatize them 19:32:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: DINNER). 19:32:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:35:44 What is the Curry-Howard of quantum logic? 19:36:54 i once found something called basic logic which is apparently a subset of quantum logic and can be given a curry-howard interpretation with continuations. but i never managed to see a meaningful interpretation of the orthomodular law. 19:39:21 it was basically a substructural sequent logic 19:40:08 it was also a subset of linear logic 19:40:15 um OBVIOUSLY you need a quantum computer 19:40:17 quantum lambda calculus 19:40:36 quantum logic isn't obviously directly related to quantum computers 19:40:46 oerjan. oerjan i was kidding 19:40:47 higher-order functions and quantum computers don't obviously mix 19:41:01 it's the logic of hilbert space projections 19:41:10 quantum computers don't really understand control flow, and higher order functions act like control flow operators 19:41:20 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 19:41:31 I don't understand control flow, either 19:42:20 maybe one should first ask "what is the curry-howard correspondence of reversible computing" 19:46:12 ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++>+>++++++<<<<-]>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<------.>++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.------------.>>++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++.<----.-----------.<<-----------------------------------.>>>+++++++++++++++.++++++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>>--------.<-------.<-----------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>----.++++++++ 19:46:12 . wat 19:46:43 oerjan: is that binder transliterated into norwegian as bajnder or something? 19:46:44 (EgoBot said that in the logs) 19:47:37 it could come from "binder clip", which is apparently a kind of paper clip 19:47:47 olsner: its "binders" pronounced as a normal norwegian word (except that those rarely end in -s unless they were borrowed from english) 19:48:26 also those -s borrowings are frequently singular despite being english plurals 19:48:50 i think it was fashionable to borrow that way some time in the 20th century 19:49:19 for some reason the swedes made up the word "gem" instead 19:49:21 *it's 19:50:36 olsner: that's originally a trademark 19:50:46 "Paper clips are still sometimes called "Gem clips", and in Swedish the word for any paper clip is "gem"." 19:51:04 heh, somewhere in norway there's a statue commemorating the (norwegian) inventor of the paper clip ... with a different type of paper clip than the one he invented 19:51:18 ais523, why is the name of the Russian supermarket blurred out? 19:51:45 Sgeo: my only reaction to that question is to be amused that you expected me to know the answer 19:52:00 although it's a pretty interesting question 19:52:01 yeah the wikipedia article on paper clip mentions that that inventor didn't really invent it 19:52:10 was the supermarket actually in russia, or in fake-russia? 19:52:26 "Vaaler probably did not know that a better product was already on the market, although not yet in Norway. His version was never manufactured and never marketed, because the superior Gem was already available." 19:52:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:52:33 According to the show, it was actually in Russia, but if the conspiracy theories are true, who knows 19:53:03 Hmm, they said that the Russian authorities wouldn't allow them to film. I guess that could be why, or part of why? 19:53:46 why would they show a supermarket that was actually in Russia 19:53:57 if the show wasn't filmed in Russia, it was just pretending to be? 19:54:28 It was showing the producers buying stuff to help fool the contestants into thinking they were in Russia 19:55:17 right 20:03:22 oh god does enjoying this show mean i'm suddenly a reality tv person? 20:03:26 hi 20:04:09 elliott, earlier you @ask'd me whether I was an amulet non-finding bot or such 20:04:15 Could you remind me the context for that? 20:05:23 Taneb: well there is this thing called TAEB 20:05:36 Well, here's the thing 20:05:39 I'm not TAEB 20:05:43 I'm vastly superior 20:05:52 good to know 20:05:57 Including in terms of amulet non-finding skills 20:06:25 TAEB is very good at not finding amulets 20:08:05 I'm better 20:08:13 I have never found an amulet in my life 20:08:35 With that jar test, you'd need a bunch of confederates to go first, unless you don't mind not testing the people who go first. 20:09:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:09:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:13:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:14:09 -!- augur has joined. 20:15:40 Hmm 20:15:50 There are a couple of movies I want to watch 20:15:55 Except they are pretty crap 20:17:03 * Mathnerd314 pokes his head in 20:17:27 are there really a couple dozen people in here? 20:17:41 total of 81 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 81 normal] 20:17:49 Well, there's me, Sgeo, elliott, ais523, Bike 20:17:59 oerjan, olsner, fizzie, Gregor 20:18:03 FreeFull, 20:18:15 coppro, kmc... 20:18:25 don't forget blsqbot. or hogeyui. or yiyus 20:18:28 That's the first dozen 20:18:32 WHO DARES WAKE ME FROM MY EVIL SLUMBER 20:18:39 Speaking. 20:19:00 it's just not a party if yiyus isn't here 20:19:27 fungot: Always they forget you. 20:19:28 fizzie: ugh, the cost of massive, staggering performance problems. and the spelling is just a regular unspecial genius 20:19:48 * Mathnerd314 walks out slowly 20:20:03 Arc_Koen, Fiora, oklopol, Phantom_Hoover, pikhq, shachaf, Vorpal, zzo38... 20:20:11 Sgeo: the people you put first are the people you've already disqualified anyway and just don't want to admit the fact 20:20:15 Taneb, why? 20:20:29 Why, indeed. 20:20:30 I'm listing people who speak in this channel 20:20:34 For Mathnerd314 20:20:46 don't do that 20:20:47 I'm up to 20 regulars 20:20:48 Mathnerd314 also speaks 20:20:54 Yes, but it's an open question why anyone would speak in this channel. 20:20:57 I'm pretty sure I've seen him/her speak before 20:21:20 hey what's the name of that axiom about decidable propositions on the natural numbers 20:21:23 constructivism 20:21:25 i bet oerjan knows 20:21:30 wat 20:21:33 maybe it has kolmogorov or markov or someone in the name 20:21:47 it's like ~(forall n:nat, ~P(n)) -> (exists n:nat, P(n)) 20:21:54 Axiom of Markogorov. 20:21:54 er *forall P:nat->Prop, 20:22:36 you should be glad none of us is close enough to collect on your bets. except Taneb who cannot because it would destroy the universe. wait that's just a plot you've made to keep Taneb from collecting on your bets isn't it. 20:22:51 elliott: the original proof of Gödel's incompleteness theorem worked by abusing that 20:23:01 brinkmanship at its finest 20:23:15 elliott: omega consistency 20:23:17 ais523: well gödel's proof was classical, was it not 20:23:54 except hm 20:23:57 oerjan: hmm... I'm pretty sure I'm thinking of something with a different name, but it seems related 20:24:22 omega consistency is classical so... 20:24:51 * elliott wonders if Wikipedia has a list of axioms... 20:25:00 and not really an axiom i guess 20:25:20 oerjan: oh I forgot to mention that P must be decidable, iirc. and the idea behind the axiom is that you can just go through all naturals n until you find one that satisfies P 20:25:30 the trick being, you can't prove that loop halts without an axiom 20:26:53 right. it sounds like it's _in spirit_ the same as omega consistency translated to constructivism. 20:34:43 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:37:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:20 -!- augur has joined. 20:42:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:54:02 Tempted to redefine Numberwang with unknown specification and a closed-source reference implementation 20:58:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:59:19 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:05:54 ais523, thank you for introducing me to this show 21:06:17 oerjan, what would you recommend I do to become an EVEN BETTER HASKELL PROGRAMMMER 21:13:32 refactor all your programs to do their computation in the type system. 21:15:58 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:17:37 Oh no! 21:28:58 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 21:44:15 oerjan: i feel like i should warn you that i am considering proving your underload reductions to work in coq. there may be questions. 21:46:26 -!- copumpkin has quit. 21:47:06 ooh 21:47:39 Good luck 21:48:26 well i've found bugs in those sections before. but given that the constructed programs actually ran, i'm not _overly_ nervous :P 21:49:03 yes, it's as much for want to something to do in coq than anything else. 21:49:17 though I am also poking around at trying to prove the halting problem for the untyped lambda calculus. 21:49:31 (the main issue seems to be teaching it about the untyped lambda calculus.) 21:49:43 heh 21:50:18 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:51:58 oerjan: aha, I found it! 21:51:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov's_principle 21:52:54 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:52:58 aha 21:56:02 I wonder what you "lose" by adding that principle. 21:56:28 like, if you can prove (~forall n, ~P(n)) for decidable P while there still being an argument to be made that there isn't "actually" an n that satisfies it 21:56:49 (and that possibly the algorithm that loops through all n will never find one somehow...?) 21:57:31 elliott: how do you define "decidable", here? 21:58:56 ais523: the standard way? forall n, P(n) \/ ~P(n) 21:59:27 i.e. there is an algorithm that proves either P(n) or ~P(n) for any given n. but of course it gets trickier: that algorithm may itself invoke Markov's principle... 21:59:28 OK, so the axiom is basically defining what "forall" means, I think 21:59:39 err... I don't agree 21:59:51 this is only about P : nat -> Prop, after all 22:07:38 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:10:11 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 22:10:21 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:15:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:16:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:19:39 coq really needs hoogle. 22:19:42 coogle. 22:23:23 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 22:28:21 -!- wareya has left. 22:30:53 -!- nooodl has joined. 22:52:40 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:53:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:54:35 -!- augur has joined. 22:57:49 ...there's a Hexham Annual Town Meeting?! 22:59:22 Taneb: but you and elliott can't both attend it 22:59:35 Luckily, elliott can't go outside 22:59:39 And I don't really care 23:00:11 I love the stupidity of browser agent strings 23:00:30 Almost every browser claims it is Mozilla. 23:00:47 Webkit points out it is KHTML even though it has come a long way from that. 23:00:57 And Chrome mentions Safari in the string 23:01:23 And IE? 23:01:38 Taneb, well I don't have one to check with, but at least it claims it is Mozilla 23:01:45 My current browser says: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.22 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/25.0.1364.160 Safari/537.22 23:01:45 IE claims it's mozilla too 23:01:53 And... lynx? 23:02:03 oerjan: I wonder if interesting things happen if you increase your criteria for evidence of a proposition. like, a constructive proof of (exists n, ...) gives you a concrete n, but it might take longer than the age of the universe to compute. what if you required the constructions to not just be computable, but computable with e.g. certain asymptotic bounds? 23:02:03 I don't think lynx claims that 23:02:10 Dunno, don't have lynx installed 23:02:11 (whenever I want to say something crazy I just add "oerjan:" to the start) 23:02:12 it is just a massive clusterfuck 23:02:32 if you actually want to know the browser (for statistics or whatever) you need advanced parsing 23:02:45 links2 says it's Links (2.7; Linux 3.7.10-1-ARCH x86_64; GNU C 4.7.1; x) 23:04:32 elliott: you should look at the bellantoni-cook polytime functions 23:04:56 oerjan: yikes, no wikipedia page. this is going to be fun. 23:05:15 * elliott was almost hoping for "that's completely stupid." 23:05:16 FreeFull, that one is straight forward 23:05:22 FreeFull, unlike anything else 23:05:24 it's been a long time since i read about it 23:05:32 ooh this looks interesting. 23:05:34 well okay, wget, googlebot and such are straight forward too 23:05:40 probably w3m and lynx as well 23:05:47 but any major GUI browser? Nope. 23:06:08 Opera's fairly sane. 23:06:14 pikhq, really? 23:06:42 Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.0) Presto/2.12.388 Version/12.11 23:06:44 An example. 23:06:56 hm nice 23:06:58 well the trick there is that nothing supports opera anyway 23:07:03 pikhq, I have to say that Chrome is especially insane, Mozilla, Webkit, KHTML, Gecko, Chrome, Safari 23:07:11 It's Opera/9.80 at the start because some idiotic comparators think Opera/10 < Opera/9 23:07:21 pikhq, lol 23:07:23 elliott: oh and of course primitive recursion is a similar, simpler thing 23:07:28 oerjan: right of course 23:07:50 Firefox claims it's Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/19.0 23:07:58 Which is reasonable, since it is Mozilla's descendant 23:08:09 It actually literally is Mozilla, so yeah. 23:08:17 FreeFull, okay, it gets away with it 23:08:27 No lies there at all. 23:08:31 FreeFull, anything else that claims it is Mozilla doesn't however 23:08:35 Well, Mozilla/5.0 kinda is. 23:08:38 pikhq, it is still not Mozilla 5 23:08:39 and istr there was another variation that gave logspace complexity 23:08:39 yeah 23:08:56 Vorpal: seamonkey? 23:09:01 Vorpal: Of course, strictly speaking the Mozilla there does not refer to the Mozilla browser at all. 23:09:14 oerjan: I am interested in what it means from a logical POV... as in, to get constructivity, we discard LEM; to get "linear-time constructivity" or "exponential-time constructivity" or whatever, what gets dropped? presumably induction gets weakened somehow... 23:09:16 FreeFull, uh, I heard of it, but don't really know what makes it special 23:09:23 pikhq, oh? 23:09:25 But rather the 5th revision of the Mozilla project. The 4th of which was Netscape 4. 23:09:28 Vorpal: It's basically a modern Netscape 23:09:40 FreeFull, oh, who made it? 23:09:49 Mozilla 23:09:55 why, they have firefox 23:09:57 xkcd 82 is weird 23:10:01 It's a fork of the Mozilla monolithic browser. 23:10:08 ah 23:10:12 who would want that 23:10:12 It's now an external project, using Gecko. 23:10:38 Some people like having an email client, html editor and stuff built in =P 23:10:53 hah 23:10:56 I'd be amused if it's less resource-heavy than Firefox. 23:11:00 Which it could be... 23:11:05 I guess seamonkey split off 23:11:12 But it originally was a Mozilla project 23:11:30 The name "Seamonkey" was introduced when it split off. 23:11:33 elliott: just apply curry-howard hth 23:11:41 Well, "The Mozilla Foundation provides hosting and legal backing for the SeaMonkey Project. " 23:11:57 oerjan: oh. thank's. 23:12:07 FreeFull, but probably not developers 23:12:25 or financial stuff 23:12:51 Used to 23:12:57 true 23:13:13 anyway, doesn't IE put the .NET version in the header too? 23:13:15 or something 23:13:19 I seem to remember that 23:13:29 or was it even in the user agent? 23:13:55 I think it used to but doesn't anymore? 23:13:59 Maybe still does 23:14:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:15:29 -!- augur has joined. 23:17:22 hm 23:21:45 -!- monqy has joined. 23:39:48 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:42:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:51:39 Bah, it's way too late to listen to SPJ's soothing voice 23:52:11 um bedtime reading 23:52:36 how loudly do you usually listen to SPJ? 23:53:33 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 23:56:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 23:56:23 Loud enough for my dad to tell me to turn it off apparently 23:57:05 headbang to SPJ 23:57:25 ^list 23:57:25 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 23:57:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:58:35 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 2013-03-17: 00:00:23 oops, sorry 00:01:23 ???? 00:02:53 elliott: it's Sgeo, I'm sure he's done enough that he's allowed to apologise any time he likes 00:03:55 that's not a lawful good comment, ais523 00:04:46 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:05:35 Sgeo: you have broken ais523's alignment, you should apologize 00:06:26 `? ais523 00:06:31 Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good. 00:06:37 is it March 3? 00:06:55 on some dates, yes 00:07:03 yes 00:07:11 `addquote is it March 3? on some dates, yes 00:07:16 983) is it March 3? on some dates, yes 00:07:20 if you're american, living anywhere that isn't america, and use modular dates 00:07:27 modular dates? 00:07:56 that wisdom may not be entirely accurate, i thought that latest addition was a bit fishy 00:08:11 each number in the date is modulo whatever the number of things you can have in that field 00:08:28 however, note it doesn't say you're _only_ lawful good on the 3rd of march. 00:08:41 exception proves the rule 00:08:49 elliott, for not doing ^list sooner 00:09:06 it doesn't say that it only applies for the 3rd of march either 00:09:21 (can you have more than one alignment?) 00:10:25 of course not. 00:11:13 maybe there's a Dissociative Alignment Disorder in play 00:11:43 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 00:12:55 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:19:27 omg 00:19:30 hussie is just trolling now 00:19:54 istr getting really annoyed at 'hussie is trolling' theories back in the day 00:19:59 but now i can believe it 00:20:39 I thought it was obvious when he dumped in the troll thing for no reason a second time 00:20:53 well 00:21:07 there were obviously a few times he was pulling the fandom's collective leg 00:21:10 coppro, you don't want to learn about leprechauns? 00:21:35 Phantom_Hoover: he's very clearly been trolling since day one 00:21:39 or two 00:21:46 imo two 00:21:47 http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=001902 00:22:03 -!- Lymia has joined. 00:22:03 coppro: The charms thing doesn't seem like trolling to me 00:22:12 omg Lymia 00:22:15 Hii~ 00:22:17 leprechauning 00:22:23 `relcome lymia 00:22:26 ​lymia: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 00:22:27 zoosmell is actually a reference to his earlier work 00:22:30 also that's the sort of trolling thingy i never liked 00:22:30 FreeFull: Really? It doesn't seem like he's making fun of the readership's obsession with troll romance? 00:22:34 oh great, everyone is ms paint adventures 00:22:39 olsner: everyone. 00:22:43 http://www.andrewhussie.com/comic.php?sec=archive&auth=Blurbs&blurb=zs&cid=blurbs/00096-zs.gif 00:22:44 there is no hope 00:22:52 olsner: it's even on topic. ~ATH is totally an esoteric language 00:23:04 hey that guy looks like john's dad 00:23:06 Lymia, you're our last hope 00:23:12 break the equilibrium 00:23:23 Bike, hi! I'm pretty sure I've been here longer than you! You're not in my logs. From a long time ago. o-o 00:23:32 * Lymia has no idea why she decided to leave, or why she decided to come back, but. o-o 00:23:35 Hello Lymia 00:23:37 Phantom_Hoover, what happened D: 00:23:42 i like how confrontative that sounds 00:23:43 are you secretly elliott? 00:23:45 Lymia: I'm not sure `welcome has ever been used to actually welcome anybody. 00:23:52 Let alone `relcome. 00:23:55 `WELCOME Bike 00:23:58 BIKE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 00:23:58 "hey Bike! i've been here longer than you so WATCH YOURSELF" 00:24:02 And yes, I'm new. Thanks for the intro elliott. 00:24:13 i have an infinite supply of welcomingness 00:24:15 Hey that link is broken though. Where is this wiki? Is it down? 00:24:16 `wehlcohme elliott 00:24:17 Bike: it should count as a welcome even if you don't stay 00:24:18 ehlliohtt: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.) 00:24:27 Oh god. 00:24:27 Bike: unfortunately the uppercase wiki has yet to be fully realised 00:24:30 This is so confusing. 00:24:35 Lymia, (there was an explosion in `welcome commands) 00:24:37 Why do we have so many variants of the welcome script 00:24:38 o-o 00:24:44 Because it's "funny". 00:24:57 It's actually very unixy too! 00:25:04 `cat bin/wehlcohme 00:25:04 we also had like 10 different list scripts but that's had a stop put to it now 00:25:05 welcome "$@" | h 00:25:17 `run echo "this is a test!" | h 00:25:19 thihs ihs a tehst! 00:25:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: The most welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 00:25:26 Composable, small, useful utilities. 00:25:26 `cat bin/h 00:25:28 ​#!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig 00:25:38 On IRC for some reason. 00:26:09 `quote being weird 00:26:11 No output. 00:26:32 All we need now is a translation to Lojban and Japanese o-o! 00:26:39 I thought that was just something taneb put in the topic. 00:26:45 Wasn't lojban verboten or something 00:26:54 didn't we have japanese 00:27:01 `välkommen 00:27:03 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: välkommen: not found 00:27:09 `witam 00:27:11 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: witam: not found 00:27:17 `ls bin 00:27:19 i'm just going to draw the line here 00:27:20 ​? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ colorize \ define \ delquote \ emmental \ emoclew \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma 00:27:28 `cat bin/CaT 00:27:30 ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ print (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read()) 00:27:35 i will not allow swedish welcome while i draw breath 00:27:35 what 00:27:38 oh 00:27:41 `youkoso 00:27:42 Mmmmm... no. 00:27:47 pfft 00:27:48 snort, what 00:27:50 `list 00:27:52 Phantom_Hoover: I think there was one 00:27:54 ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb 00:28:10 (what happens when the `list gets too long??) 00:28:12 `What is 00:28:13 Mmmmm... no. 00:28:16 SUPREME_BUTT_SUI 00:28:23 That does not sound nice. 00:28:25 I think it's self explanatory, lymia 00:28:39 it's the supreme sui of the butt 00:28:46 `quine Hi Lymia 00:28:49 ​`quine Hi Lymia 00:30:35 `ls bin/*ä* 00:30:37 ​/bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory 00:31:18 `ls bin/v?lk* 00:31:20 ​/bin/ls: cannot access bin/v?lk*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v?lk*: No such file or directory 00:31:23 `ls bin/v*lk* 00:31:25 ​/bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory 00:31:30 `run ls bin/*ä* 00:31:31 ​/bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*ä*: No such file or directory 00:31:39 god am i bad at shell or what 00:31:46 oops 00:31:52 `run ls bin/v*lk* 00:31:54 ​/bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/v*lk*: No such file or directory 00:31:59 OKAY 00:32:17 `cat bin/ls 00:32:19 ​#!/bin/sh \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" | grep -q ^752131 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi 00:32:24 `run echo bin/w* 00:32:26 bin/wehlcohme bin/welcome bin/wl bin/word bin/words bin/wtf 00:32:34 `run echo bin/v* 00:32:36 bin/v* 00:32:54 oh man i totally forgot about that horrid hack 00:33:14 it appears that it duplicates the error messages 00:38:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:39:38 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Quit: ragequit). 00:43:13 !bfjoust 00:43:14 ​Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 00:43:25 Is that, like 00:43:27 Still running o-o 00:43:42 people play it every now and then amidst periods of inactivity 00:44:16 (also why is codu down) 00:44:37 huh weird 00:44:42 @tell gregor httpd on codu.org is broken 00:44:43 Consider it noted. 00:50:51 Bleh. 00:50:56 And the bfjoust interpreter link is 404'd 00:50:59 Stupid link rot :( 00:51:25 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/egojsout.html is the one most people use, but it's down of course 00:51:32 really? it worked last i checked, i think that's just codu being down 00:51:35 which link is 404'd? 00:51:57 The link's 'ais523's interpreter for his revised version' 00:52:08 blech, not bfjoust! 00:54:47 oh, hmm 00:55:02 @tell ais523 looks like we shouldn't link to sprunge from the wiki; your BF Joust interpreter has disappeared 00:55:02 Consider it noted. 00:55:39 Does anybody have a copy? :p 00:55:59 you might want to use fizzie's interpreter (which he probably has a link to), like HackEgo does. 00:56:10 ah, http://git.zem.fi/ has it 00:57:18 chainlance? 00:59:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJxLSm41hUk&feature=player_embedded 00:59:14 There are... 00:59:21 Three interepters in there o-o 01:00:19 And /wtf/ is header.asm for 01:01:43 elliott, you have a dump of the current hill? >_< 01:02:03 alas no 01:02:31 header.asm is because chainlance compiles the warriors to machine code iirc 01:02:38 I think gearlance is what hackego uses 01:03:27 Wow. 01:03:34 Chainlance, in fact, does JIT... 01:04:18 it almost makes sense with the 100K+ programs that are fashionable :P 01:05:38 .. 01:05:53 Extreme loop unrolling or something/ 01:06:02 partial code generation, mainly 01:06:18 stuff does case analysis to figure out what kind of program it's fighting/tape length/etc. and then proceeds repetitively from there 01:07:15 It sounds almost as if there's a case for having a personal tape to avoid huge programs... 01:07:39 Eh. 01:07:44 well, it's more about saving cycles I think 01:07:46 Though I guess that still has runtime cost.. 01:07:47 since using [] cost you 01:14:17 !bfjoust stupid < 01:14:28 ​Score for Lymia_stupid: 0.0 01:14:51 !bfjoust stupid [+--] 01:14:54 ​Score for Lymia_stupid: 7.5 01:14:58 ..? 01:15:04 The hill's alive but codu.org can't even be pinged? 01:15:43 maybe some traceroute style issues 01:15:47 thingy 01:16:51 !bfjoust stupidest >+[[-]>+] 01:16:54 ​Score for FreeFull_stupidest: 5.5 01:17:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:18:49 !bfjoust even_stupider [[]+] 01:18:52 ​Score for Lymia_even_stupider: 3.6 01:22:01 So... 01:22:04 codu.org is alive... 01:22:08 But can't be reached from outside? 01:22:18 o-o 01:23:29 -!- Lymia_ has joined. 01:24:08 `run wget http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 01:24:08 Mmmmm... no. 01:24:13 ;< 01:24:28 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to NiaVee. 01:24:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:24:30 `run wget http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 01:24:32 ​--2013-03-17 01:24:31-- http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-03-17 01:24:31 ERROR 403: Forbidden. 01:25:09 `run wget http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/ 01:25:11 ​--2013-03-17 01:25:10-- http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-03-17 01:25:10 ERROR 403: Forbidden. 01:25:16 `run wget http://codu.org/ 01:25:17 ​--2013-03-17 01:25:17-- http://codu.org/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-03-17 01:25:17 ERROR 403: Forbidden. 01:25:26 `run wget http://google.com/ 01:25:46 `run cat index.html 01:25:46 ​--2013-03-17 01:25:34-- http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2013-03-17 01:25:36-- (try: 2) http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2 01:25:47 ​ probably you want `fetch 01:25:59 `run rm google.com 01:26:00 rm: cannot remove `google.com': No such file or directory 01:26:03 `run rm index.html 01:26:07 No output. 01:26:07 What does the `fetch script do? 01:26:14 `run cat `which fetch` 01:26:45 No output. 01:26:53 it's built-in 01:27:13 `fetch http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 01:27:14 No output. 01:27:18 `ls 01:27:20 a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.orig \ slist.rej \ src \ sudo \ %sudo \ test 01:28:23 `help fetch 01:28:23 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 01:28:47 `run ls tip* 01:28:48 ​/bin/ls: cannot access tip*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access tip*: No such file or directory 01:29:01 `fetch http://google.com 01:29:03 2013-03-17 01:29:01 URL:http://www.google.com/ [10688] -> "index.html" [1] 01:29:26 `fetch http://64.62.173.65/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 01:29:27 No output. 01:29:34 `fetch http://64.62.173.65/ 01:29:35 No output. 01:30:52 fuck, oerjan isn't here 01:31:18 aleph 1 times beth 1 is equal to beth one regardless of the CH, right? 01:31:49 ...yes, yes it is 01:32:10 (i like how i switched from '1' to 'one' there) 01:36:25 `fetch http://1077849409/ 01:36:26 No output. 01:36:36 No idea if it's a proxy, or if it's a dead webserver even... 01:36:41 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:37:04 `run cat sudo 01:37:05 cat: sudo: Is a directory 01:37:43 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 01:38:30 `run wget -v http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us 01:38:33 ​ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \ 01:38:34 -!- Bike has joined. 01:38:47 `run wget -v http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 2>&1 | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us > link 01:38:51 ​ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \ 01:38:54 `run cat link 01:38:55 ​ ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved