00:02:33 Today's Comments on a Postcard is somewhat odd 00:02:34 darn 00:03:08 How's the pbf kickstarter going? 00:03:32 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4708 00:04:04 @tell taneb Yesterday's COAP looks very much like Shaenon K. Garrity drew it 00:04:05 Consider it noted. 00:04:12 Sgeo: is this about Bike's link. 00:04:32 coap? 00:04:39 as far as I know the only PBF-related kickstarter was the one to erase the US national debt, and it failed 00:04:46 elliott, depends. Am I a future psychic? 00:04:52 imo yes 00:05:10 Oh, it's not a kickstarter, it's an ... updrafter 00:05:27 it's an april fools joke 00:05:57 I know it's an April Fools Joke, but I thought it was a real joke Kickstarter 00:06:15 sgeo. dude. *puts my arm around your shoulder* did you watch the video? did you notice the rewards? it's okay man. it's okay, we're here for you in this time of need for you and your perceptual capabilities 00:06:57 -!- epicmonkey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:07:02 I noticed the rewards. I thought it was a piece of silliness put on actual Kickstarter 00:08:21 I didn't notice the video 00:11:00 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:11:16 *removes arm from shoulder* 00:12:09 @tell taneb Also Egypt _is_ vaguely near Ethiopia, so something is clearly horribly wrong there 00:12:09 Consider it noted. 00:13:42 Sgeo: you should check your purse hth 00:14:45 oerjan, idgi 00:15:28 Sgeo: that Bike character looks quite shady 00:15:47 Ah 00:15:57 * Bike slowly pedals himself away 00:17:06 wait. Bike has arms 00:17:56 actually it's just the one 00:18:00 elliott: i _told_ you he was shady 00:18:00 thanks for reminding me, asshole 00:23:10 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:23:48 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:23:48 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 00:23:48 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:36:59 -!- Bike has joined. 00:58:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:58:56 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:02:11 -!- hagb4rdoux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:19:16 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 01:19:22 I'm finally starting to understand the Nexus thing. 01:19:43 Google is taking an interesting approach to being manufacturer-neutral by having their "first party" product line be made by /several/ manufacturers. 01:19:45 ^ul (H)S((m)S:^):^ 01:19:45 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...too much output! 01:20:07 LG, Asus and Samsung all manufacturing Android devices under the same brand name… 01:23:10 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:29:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:29:56 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:38:49 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:39:42 `? tervetuloa 01:39:42 -!- lahwran- has changed nick to lahwran. 01:39:44 tervetuloa: ask shachaf 01:39:54 imo ask fizzie 01:39:59 shachaf: tervetuloa? 01:40:07 oerjan: ask ion 01:40:16 ion: tervetuloa? 01:41:25 oerjan: 01:41:27 t̵̤̠̰̫͔̼̣͔̘̥̪͕̳̫̼̪͉͍͆̇̇ͧ́̎ͦ̄͂ͥ̊̇̚̕͠e̝͖͉̮̙͖̠͇̘͇̊ͪ̆͆ͩ̇̓ͥ̑̏̊ͯ͟r̸̛̒͌̌̒́̐̆͒͒̀͏̻̹̪̣v̺̪̯͉͎̱̜͚͎̖͙̞͕̗̙̱ͬ̿̈́ͦͥ͒͢͟ͅe̡̧̞̼̭̘̱̪̣̪̘̤͎̣̜ͮ̈́ͫ̓͌̾̐ͫ̈͞t̛ͨͪ̉ͦ̇̊ͫͮ͑̿͂̃ͯ̄́̀͢͏̷̦̰̠̮u̵̝̜̣̱̮͎̳͔̳̳͙̮ͥ͋̏̂ͧͬ̌̈́̿́͘l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕ 01:41:29 ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͍̭͚̹͉̖̯̣͉͈͑̅̇͋ͨ͐͑ͪͮͮ̈́̈́͂̚̚͠͡ͅͅ 01:41:38 I wonder why WeeChat keeps splitting these to multiple lines? 01:41:59 It was a single line in the input line before i hit return. 01:42:17 it is clearly too much for a single line to handle 01:42:46 Oh, perhaps these actually don’t fit to the maximum IRC command length. 01:43:02 ion: wtf did you do to my screen :( 01:43:19 t̵̤̠̰̫͔̼̣͔̘̥̪͕̳̫̼̪͉͍͆̇̇ͧ́̎ͦ̄͂ͥ̊̇̚̕͠e̝͖͉̮̙͖̠͇̘͇̊ͪ̆͆ͩ̇̓ͥ̑̏̊ͯ͟r̸̛̒͌̌̒́̐̆͒͒̀͏̻̹̪̣v̺̪̯͉͎̱̜͚͎̖͙̞͕̗̙̱ͬ̿̈́ͦͥ͒͢͟ͅe̡̧̞̼̭̘̱̪̣̪̘̤͎̣̜ͮ̈́ͫ̓͌̾̐ͫ̈͞t̛ͨͪ̉ͦ̇̊ͫͮ͑̿͂̃ͯ̄́̀͢͏̷̦̰̠̮u̵̝̜̣̱̮͎̳͔̳̳͙̮ͥ͋̏̂ͧͬ̌̈́̿́͘l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕ ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͑̅̇͋ͨ͐̚ 01:43:25 ion..................................... 01:43:36 oerjan: t̵̤̠̰̫͔̼̣͔̘̥̪͕̳̫̼̪͉͍͆̇̇ͧ́̎ͦ̄͂ͥ̊̇̚̕͠e̝͖͉̮̙͖̠͇̘͇̊ͪ̆͆ͩ̇̓ͥ̑̏̊ͯ͟r̸̛̒͌̌̒́̐̆͒͒̀͏̻̹̪̣v̺̪̯͉͎̱̜͚͎̖͙̞͕̗̙̱ͬ̿̈́ͦͥ͒͢͟ͅe̡̧̞̼̭̘̱̪̣̪̘̤͎̣̜ͮ̈́ͫ̓͌̾̐ͫ̈͞t̛ͨͪ̉ͦ̇̊ͫͮ͑̿͂̃ͯ̄́̀͢͏̷̦̰̠̮u̵̝̜̣̱̮͎̳͔̳̳͙̮ͥ͋̏̂ͧͬ̌̈́̿́͘l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕ ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͑̅̇ 01:43:40 help 01:44:26 ion: implausible 01:44:58 Yeah, those take quite a few bytes. What i wrote/pasted took 506 bytes. WeeChat split it at the first space (after the colon), and the remaining part still didn’t fit in a command so it split it again. 01:45:49 shachaf: http://heh.fi/tmp/ghci-prompt 01:45:51 ion: um i just wrote it as one line didn't i? 01:46:26 good prompt 01:46:27 oerjan: With much less combining characters judging from what wc says about it. 01:46:36 ic 01:47:43 Sorry, my bad. Your paste didn’t drop any combining characters after all, i think. 01:48:38 i don't think i got all at the end 01:48:49 judging by the logs 01:49:47 hm, maybe it actually got cut off by the limit 01:49:55 ͙̮l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕ ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͍̭͚̹͉̖̯̣͉͈͑̅̇͋ͨ͐͑ͪͮͮ̈́̈́͂̚̚͠͡ͅͅ 01:50:13 ion help stop it.. 01:50:28 ah seems so 01:50:33 shachaf: PROBLEM? 01:50:39 I think your paste lacked the combining characters that ended up on my second line before any normal character. 01:50:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:51:04 oerjan: ДА 01:51:05 * Koen_ takes a tissue and rubs the computer screen 01:51:19 And that was enough to make it fit to a single command. 01:51:33 ion: well they look like the same mess as yours in the logs. 01:51:59 ion: in the logs, mine is clearly cut off at the end 01:52:54 in this browser which shows it has a horrible uncombined mess 01:52:57 *as 01:57:25 There are now Japanese announcements for VGMCK. 02:01:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:01:34 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 02:01:42 It is not the first time I made something which Japanese people have used afterward. 02:06:30 What's a VGMCK 02:07:59 A program to write music in .VGM format 02:08:01 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:08:19 -!- Deewiant has joined. 02:09:56 Write as in compose, convert from something else, or? 02:18:12 -!- hagb4rdoux has joined. 02:18:51 To compose your own music using MML. 02:20:22 hi zzo38: how is your little sound processing project processing? got a repo? 02:20:45 hagb4rdoux: What sound processing project do you mean? 02:21:13 erm..pardon.. progressing..going on.. what its state 02:21:47 damn it y am i still habardoux when joining 02:22:04 hagb4rdoux: it's your inner frenchman revolting 02:22:17 Other programs to write your own music in .VGM format do exist, such as XPMCK and DefleMask and a few others, although VGMCK supports more chips than the others, and some other features are also more complete. 02:22:21 shitty nettalk can't handle its appdata..though its a portable version!! 02:22:26 hagb4rdoux: That isn't answering my question. 02:22:39 -!- hagb4rdoux has changed nick to hagb4rd. 02:24:04 you 02:24:10 are a lingu-weirdo 02:24:39 however you are correct.. it is not 02:28:48 zzo38.secretsoundrevolution.onComplete(share(this, hagb4rd)); 02:30:12 it seems you are in the confuse the world with shortcuts of ideas i recently read about phase 02:30:30 it seems you are in the confuse the world 02:30:32 That doesn't answer my question either. 02:30:57 I don't know what little sound processing project you meant! 02:32:13 okay..sry then. maybe it was someone else then. i guess. 02:32:48 `log rectangl.*wave 02:33:01 `log rectang.*wave 02:33:20 No output. 02:33:31 2013-04-02.txt:02:33:01: `log rectang.*wave 02:33:40 maybe it was another spacetime 02:33:58 * hagb4rd is out of sync 02:35:31 shachaf: eek it's spreading https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/liyang/profunctors 02:36:06 oerjan: imo beaky should sue liyang for libel 02:36:29 hagb4rd: maybe zzo38 has too many to guess 02:36:46 shachaf: nah, that would be too easy 02:38:12 it wasn't that important.. we were just sayin hello..stating we're not ready to change the world with our superficial collaboration :P 02:38:17 @oerjan 02:38:18 Unknown command, try @list 02:52:06 -!- bengt_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:52:31 -!- bengt_ has joined. 02:59:23 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 03:08:50 this song is crashing my heart like a train https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_DVS_303kQ ..(but i'm lost within a happy crowd of intelligent but sense-o-less nerds. #esoteric is the only place i can go) 03:09:00 where is my rescue squad? 03:09:11 (it must be exhausted) 03:11:51 where do the irc-folks go when they get older and ..sillier? 03:12:29 `slist 03:12:31 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 03:13:11 i'm old and silly, but i don't click voluntarily on heart-crashing links. hth. 03:16:12 hagb4rd, btw you were wrong 03:16:14 you are a good man oerjan 03:16:27 That environment variable wouldn't have helped. Happened to see what it contained, it already had .cmd 03:17:30 oh really? 03:17:32 :D 03:17:45 great 03:19:15 but you always shall strike me down with your rightous anger if needed! 03:21:45 * hagb4rd calms and relax oerjan having his swat equipped and ready to draw 03:21:52 *noticing 03:29:43 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: take it easy kids! some girls are bigger than other..good night). 03:32:04 i can't tell if hagb4rd is always really stoned or just a bit crazy 03:32:31 he knows windows pretty well. it's possible he's a sysadmin 03:32:41 which would answer that question pretty conclusively i think 03:33:47 you are _this_ close to getting quoted, you two 03:34:30 hi oerjan :') 03:34:48 Why are indexed monads not "categories in the category of endofunctor" or whatever it is? 03:35:11 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:47:04 they aren't? 03:48:18 mse claims sigfpe's blog contains a virus 03:51:27 -!- fowl_ has joined. 03:54:51 `welcome fowl_ 03:54:53 fowl_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 03:54:54 oerjan: it's a virus of the mind. 03:54:59 vind 03:57:33 shachaf: mike seems to say in the comments of http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/02/beyond-monads.html that it's a 2-category, not a category. 03:58:18 well, you can trust mike. 03:58:40 is that mike stay 03:58:46 http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/02/beyond-monads.html?showComment=1235695560000#c8394868375577042271 03:59:19 shachaf: profile says so 04:03:54 Storm Core is another ARMv2 implementation, other than Amber Core. Storm Core is not fixed to Xilinx Spartan-6, and runs at 80MHz on a Spartan-3, but is written in VHDL. Can Verilog and VHDL programs be combined in a FPGA? Can a single program have some files in Verilog and some in VHDL? 04:08:42 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 04:10:26 kmc: :-( 04:11:53 Do you know what features of ARMv2 are used by GCC? 04:11:58 Hopefully unrelated to my question mark thing. 04:13:18 yes 04:14:37 wait what did kmc even say 04:14:40 i'm horribly insecure and don't need to hear about how i'm just a "code monkey" because I don't know enough about machine learning 04:14:52 what 04:15:00 conversation in another channel 04:15:19 well, aww 04:15:33 i was having a shitty day anyway so it's just, can't deal with that too 04:16:01 @hug kmc 04:16:01 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug 04:16:03 Well, that's something. 04:16:22 -!- ousia has quit (Quit: ousia). 04:16:38 haha 04:16:44 kmc: sorry people are being shitty :( 04:16:45 thanks shachaf, lambdabot 04:17:03 they should know I have a monopoly on that 04:17:10 haha 04:17:17 * Fiora hugs kmc? 04:17:26 * kmc hugs back 04:17:28 thanks :) 04:17:32 machine learning seems like an odd thing to lightningrod on anyway 04:17:45 people have their own specialties, nothing wrong with just knowing how to code... and you know a lot more than coding anyway 04:18:15 yeah, geez. you're one of the smartest CS people I know 04:18:19 i've probably made similar statements about functional programming or whatever in the past 04:18:25 *shrug* 04:18:33 i think i'm getting a broader perspective over time 04:18:37 then again I've felt that way lately too sometimes so >_< 04:19:06 You've felt like one of the smartest CS people you know? 04:19:13 she has. 04:19:14 i took a intro ML class; it was cool and I did pretty well, but it didn't grab me as "omg I must study this forever and use it everywhere" 04:19:28 yeah haskell is way cooler [THE JOKE IS ML,] 04:19:44 i think there's a huge gap between knowing the basic techniques and actually getting them to work on messy real world stuff 04:19:44 come on that was pretty good. 04:19:48 and i'm happy to leave that up to other people 04:19:50 elliott: nein 04:19:51 * Bike shakes elliott 04:19:56 i read that as "shanks" 04:19:59 you just don't accept me. 04:20:04 elliott: if by good you mean bad then it was still pretty bad 04:20:05 shachaf: no that is not what I meant -_- 04:20:26 well the joke has personal meaning to me 04:20:32 because i read kmc's line that way originally and it confused me 04:23:56 kmc: it is weird to me that the person who wrote that jit spraying thing is talking about "messy real world stuff" just fyi 04:24:58 That thing wasn't ML. 04:25:09 it's true it wasn't 04:25:41 oh. 04:25:46 i'm bored of hume. tell me what to do. 04:25:53 Bike: smullyan hth 04:26:16 i'm not going to "do" smullyan he's like 90 04:26:26 well hume is dead 04:26:29 doesn't seem to stop you 04:27:57 kmc: I could kind of say something but I think I will just like, point to what bike said 04:28:02 :) 04:28:26 yeah I like messy real world stuff when it's, like, debuggers and kernels 04:28:29 MATLAB not so much 04:28:33 happy to leave that to someone else 04:28:33 Should I learn about ML? 04:28:43 I can go work at this CV company. 04:28:52 shachaf: sure, why not 04:29:19 i used to be pretty into graphics too, but haven't done much of that in a while... kind of miss it 04:29:19 I don't know if I want to. :-( 04:29:40 It is surely better than doing nothing. 04:29:42 "sorry I'm turning in my graphics homework late because I spent all weekend coding a fractal visualizer to entertain tripping people instead" 04:30:05 this works iff the graphics prof shows up to the party where you're showing off the fractals 04:31:06 Hmm, I know pretty much nothing about ML. 04:31:30 kmc: also like two weeks ago I basically angsted myself into an anxious heap after spending 4 hours realizing how clueless I was at C++ at work 04:31:56 Fiora: what you have to realise is that everybody on the planet is clueless at C++ 04:32:00 which sort of goes to the same thing, like, people say "oh you must be brilliant you do all this amazing super hard simd stuff and you know SSE and everything!" and I'm like "I don't know how virtual functions work" 04:32:05 "save me" 04:32:08 even if you learn things about it, you just discover new ways in which it makes you clueless 04:32:11 *nod* 04:32:15 layer upon layer 04:32:16 have you read the C++ FAQ Lite? 04:32:35 I think I understand C++ templates about twice as well as the language itself 04:32:37 i think it's pretty good for getting an overview of most of the stuff in the language 04:32:45 I've read some things, it's just, I spend a few hours struggling with error messages caused by not knowing I needed pure virtual functions, and deried calsses and constructors and aghghghgh 04:32:48 because I kind of learned them first 04:32:59 well hume is dead <-- exhumed? 04:33:19 `addquoerjan well hume is dead <-- exhumed? 04:33:20 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addquoerjan: not found 04:33:37 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:33:46 Fiora: isn't that how learning things is supposed to work 04:33:57 yes but like i am supposed to know this 04:34:47 Well, now you know how pure virtual functions work. 04:34:55 You are a superior person to old Fiora. 04:35:22 is the joke rating people's worth by how many things they've memorised 04:35:32 the joke is old Fiora is younger than current Fiora 04:35:40 so maybe she should be called young Fiora 04:36:44 mind = blown 04:37:49 i wonder who was the last person who understood everything about computers that was known at the time 04:38:07 I'm not saying it's the end of the world or it's bad or anyhting I guess 04:38:12 i found this amazing computer book from the 60's 04:38:20 which is mostly about weird tricks for building analog computers 04:38:36 out of like neon light bulbs and metal discs cut into peculiar shapes and shit like that 04:38:36 Must be amazing. 04:38:45 I am expressing a similar experience to kmc in order to build rapport and make him feel as if he is not alone, right? <.< 04:38:54 yes i think so 04:39:00 :) 04:39:09 Fiorapport 04:39:22 one of my dreams is a computer that's made out of high voltage arcs in air 04:39:26 Fiora: No, I am building rapport so I can demolish it, thereby making him feel more alone than he ever thought possible. 04:39:39 seems not implausible that you could build logic gates this way 04:39:52 it has hysteresis since the ionized air conducts better than regular air 04:39:58 and you can have complicated geometric arrangements 04:40:04 pikhq is cruel 04:40:09 also it floats upward so maybe that's useful? 04:40:10 The Bird is Cruel! 04:40:17 kmc: has bike linked you to the, um. was it a hamster computer? 04:40:25 haven't seen that 04:40:30 it was some animal computer 04:40:35 er, animal logic gate 04:40:35 _The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag_ 04:40:51 Well, I guess you can build computers from string and apples, so... 04:41:04 oh, crabs, I think? 04:41:14 Oh, crabs! 04:41:16 http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749 04:41:22 I think that's the one bike linked me 04:41:31 Computers can be made in all of these ways? 04:41:33 ah yes the crabputer 04:41:33 what, no video 04:41:35 I didn't know that. 04:42:34 that's the best 04:42:42 i mentioned it in a lecture and the students were pleased 04:43:22 crabputer, crabputer, work like computer, taste like crab 04:43:37 it has an "intimidation plate" 04:44:04 Computer? She can solve the 'alting problem! 04:45:03 -_- 04:45:32 *giggle* 04:50:23 Fiora: pshufb isn't fast like the other shuffles? 04:51:10 Oh, this is about Atom. 04:51:18 Hmm, maybe Atom was relevant to the code I used pshufb with. 04:51:57 yeah, pshufb is fast on *most* things, I think. the atom is a big exception 04:52:27 I have no idea how they managed to make it 6/6, just, geez @_@ all the other shuffles are fast too 04:53:35 Pretty crazy that that even exists. I thought they were still on 22nm or something, but now they're using the atom? 04:53:55 from what I've heard I think the atom is kind of an old architecture at this point, like, all the updates to it have been just shrinks? 04:54:05 there's a next-gen atom coming out soonish though, supposedly it'll be way better 04:54:17 (it was just a stupid pun, sorry) 04:54:24 .... XD 04:54:40 that joke was good and I am bad for missing it 04:54:41 * kmc shoves shachaf into an ion trap 04:55:04 imo ion would be a better fit. 04:55:07 s/.$// 04:55:29 there's a few other really ridiculously slow instructions on low-power chips, from what I remember 04:55:34 I think the bobcat has like a 20-cycle or something palignr 04:55:40 which is a 1 or 2 cycle instruction on everything else in the cosmos 04:56:13 I wish I knew about all the things Fiora knows about instead of boring things like pure virtual functions in C++. 04:56:23 then maybe i could be cool like Fiora and use a haswell???? 04:56:24 ._. sorry 04:56:27 you can combine your knowledge 04:56:33 through internet relay chat 04:56:33 geez it's really not that cool... 04:57:05 i think for one release cycle, Ubuntu supported an architecture called "lpia" which was i386 but compiled specifically to run well on low power chips 04:57:07 i didn't say it was cool i said you were cool 04:57:18 also i only use the word "cool" ironically 04:57:23 coolronically 04:57:30 which isn't to say i don't mean it 04:57:35 or that i do 04:57:35 help 04:57:38 what am i even saying 04:57:50 life tip: ignore everything shachaf says in lowercase 04:57:51 shachaf: the curse of irony 04:58:11 * shachaf glabnu ste gyatovlip trag yalofato sru inga tlom tugafasi 04:58:28 elliott: second life tip: ignore everything shachaf says in uppercase 04:58:36 so uh i just explained Functor to a perl programmer 04:58:42 is there like... a support group i can sign up for 04:58:54 shachaf: halp 04:58:56 that's not rot13 04:59:02 (fiora is not actually cool, she just has a dumb autistic brain that memorizes dumb things that aren't useful and then has nobody to talk with about them) 04:59:04 it's not rot13 english anyway 04:59:08 fiora......... 04:59:23 Fiora: Wow, that's just unfair. 04:59:30 we talk about them here 04:59:39 You wouldn't talk like that about other people, so why would you talk like that about yourself? 04:59:46 Fiora, if you keep being such a jerk to Fiora I'm going to have to take drastic measures. You shouldn't be so mean to your friends. 04:59:59 I mean, she's right there, man! 05:00:05 If you say that people have "dumb autistic brain"s and so on I'll classify you as a mean person. 05:00:12 * Fiora is a mean person I guess 05:00:26 Go sit on the group W bench. 05:00:37 Now, kid! 05:00:42 on the upside #esoteric's topic is dumb things that aren't useful 05:01:03 yes but other people actually know about them and can talk about them 05:01:11 so they're not useless at all 05:01:21 fiora you know lots of things and you talk to us and also me about them 05:02:02 yeah, but nobody else can really say anything meanngful most of the time so I just kind of talk at a wall for a bit and go back to playing pokemon or something 05:02:10 Fiora: I hate to break this to you but I think more people know about CPUs than esolangs 05:03:37 well technically nobody talks about esolangs in #esoteric anyway. oops. 05:04:25 maybe a #cpus? <.< >.> I guess you're right 05:07:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ngåit). 05:07:21 if you can't think of a way to do something without coming off as pretentious, then it's probably pretentious, right? 05:08:18 sorry for dumb angsting 05:08:25 * Bike patpats fiora 05:09:13 * Fiora hugs Bike 05:09:22 hug. 05:09:23 @hugs all around 05:09:23 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug 05:14:54 bugs all around. 05:15:38 coppro: well do you think that "is pretentious" and "comes off as pretentious" are distinct concepts? 05:15:42 i don't really think so 05:16:05 an idea might be doomed to come off as pretentious thanks to the audience's attitudes, but still be a worthwhile idea 05:17:09 there are some things that are kind of universally labeled as pretentious in popular culture 05:18:17 for example kmc <-- brun 05:21:04 confession i enjoy modern art 05:21:28 Bike how could you....... 05:21:59 confession i enjoy monoids 05:22:23 the portland art museum has this piece "Alaska" that's a bunch of TVs stacked on a car displaying a twenty second loop of the sun rising 05:22:26 it's amazing 05:23:10 on a cart* 05:23:15 I,I "You ASCII silly question, you get a silly ANSI." "Alaska silly question whenever I want to!" 05:23:15 that's what alaska is like irl 05:23:22 and another one that's a TV covered in garish paint displaying some obscure cartoon 05:23:26 Bike: cool 05:23:33 i have been to Alaska and it is not like that "irl" 05:23:41 they also have a bunch of Monet and stuff but like, TVs man. 05:23:58 is alaska cool irl 05:24:01 um i mean 05:24:05 in the non-temperature sense you asshole 05:24:11 depends on what you like 05:24:13 imo cold places with lots of snow are pretty cool 05:24:18 but I don't know if this applies to alaska 05:24:35 if you like mountains, bears, seasons of unusual duration then they pretty much have you covered 05:24:47 rednecks flying small planes 05:24:59 alarming rates of sexual assault 05:25:20 isn't that just america in general OH BURN n.b. I don't know if amurikka's rape rate is actually higher or what 05:25:22 More alarming than other places? 05:25:28 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:25:31 i was there in the summer so it was only a normal amount of snow 05:26:04 Summer? She is not a number, she is a free woman! 05:26:15 shachaf.... 05:26:29 shachaf: yeah I think it's much higher than any other state 05:26:33 don't know why 05:26:44 another thing about alaska: they pay you money to live there 05:26:45 elliott: help im addicted :'( 05:26:55 another thing about alaska: it's next to canada and also russia? 05:27:06 don't be silly those are on opposite sides of the map 05:27:47 uh shachaf if you zoom out all the way you will see that Alaska is next to the left copy of Russia 05:27:53 haha 05:27:55 although quite far from the right copy 05:28:06 i've got to sleep now 05:28:08 as i was typing before kmc made me laugh: i like the idea that alaska is so awful they have to pay you to live there 05:28:24 do you get paid to live in like whitehorse or wherever 05:28:25 i will share any additional thoughts about alaska (if any) tomorrow 05:28:29 kmc no 05:28:30 or do you just starve because harper suxxx 05:28:33 I can't live without more alaska fax! 05:28:39 here fax is short of factologies 05:29:05 @ask kmc for additional thoughts about alaska 05:29:05 Consider it noted. 05:29:19 this book talks about Milner but not in a type way, gosh 05:29:33 did you finish lyah and/or the report yet Bike 05:29:37 Bike: does it talk about harper 05:29:50 shachaf no elliott yes like ten years ago? 05:29:56 have you written any programs in haskell yet 05:30:07 nah 05:30:08 Bike: the joke is harper of existentialtype.something.com 05:30:13 so you're "Sgeo"ing haskell 05:30:17 that's a dumb joke 05:30:26 i wonder if harper likes harrop 05:30:29 elliott, well, i don't write any "useful" programs anyway 05:30:35 harroper 05:30:43 so i'll probably just stick to SNOBOL whenever i do, books be damned 05:30:51 do you actually write snobol 05:31:00 lol god no 05:31:11 I have the manual though. It was neat. 05:31:15 oh wait have you read the typeclassopedia 05:31:17 @where typeclassopedia 05:31:17 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia 05:31:20 it's a good thing to read 05:32:01 oh, the composable monads thing is like that Steele paper i read back in the pioneer days 05:32:25 do you mean monad transformers 05:32:48 @let sum'n'max x y = (x + y, max x y) 05:32:52 shachaf is an awful person, guys 05:33:09 yes i mean those. 05:33:36 > sum'n'max 4 719 05:33:38 (723,719) 05:33:45 useful 05:33:51 it's the name, Bike 05:34:08 oh! oh like the bunny 05:34:24 also these monad transformers seem a bit «'"inelegantly"'» defined 05:34:35 monad transformers are kinda weird but waht do you mean by that 05:34:37 i mean they're useful 05:34:46 yes 05:35:00 like this typeclassy thing 05:35:05 whatever i don't want to sgeo too hard here 05:35:29 "Is the composition of two monads always a monad? As hinted previously, the answer is no. For example, XXX insert example here." 05:35:38 you mean the MonadState class thing or what? 05:35:41 Bike: that's you 05:35:44 that's your cue 05:35:46 or just MonadTrans itself or 05:35:51 do something meaningful in your life 05:35:52 Yeah the MonadState etc. class thing. 05:35:56 yeah well 05:36:00 The concept itself is fine and probably hella useful, I'm sure. 05:36:01 it beats "lift $ lift $ lift $ get" 05:36:05 Bike: btw adjunctions 05:36:09 but i agree, it's slightly ad-hoc 05:36:12 imo fuck adjunctions 05:36:20 it's just also very useful to have those auto-lifting classes 05:36:34 and sometimes being polymorphic over monads that satisfy some of the classes can be useful 05:36:42 btw "What is the kind of t in the declaration of MonadTrans?" the answer is (* -> *) -> * -> *, right? 05:36:56 yep 05:36:56 @kind MonadTrans 05:36:58 ((* -> *) -> * -> *) -> Constraint 05:37:02 yep 05:37:05 cool 05:37:08 Bike: imo s/adjunctions/you/ hth 05:37:12 shachaf :( 05:37:16 Bike: you can use :k MaybeT or such to find that out in ghci, btw 05:37:26 don't be dissin' adjunctions Bike 05:37:31 hm i didn't realize constraints were kinded, that's pretty obvious really 05:37:31 you don't know what you're up against 05:37:37 they're not really 05:37:39 They're not, in standard Haskell. 05:37:42 It's a GHC extension. 05:37:43 they are in a new, experimental ghc extension 05:37:56 which lets you do crazy thinsg like classes of classes 05:38:12 Bike: want to see something crazy 05:38:17 standard haskell like barely mentioned kinds at all 05:38:21 just kind inference and that was it 05:38:24 oh maybe you have to know about comonads first 05:38:38 does typeclassopedia cover arrows 05:38:41 I forget & hope not 05:38:46 comonads are just comonoids in the cocategory of endofunctors 05:38:46 here's that edward kmett guy again 05:38:56 (btw cocategory = category. i just said that to make it seem complicated) 05:38:57 That Edward Kmett Guy 05:38:59 elliott: I'll skip that part just to satiate you. 05:39:10 To feed you. Yes that is what I meant. 05:39:13 Bike: did you know that edwardk used to be in #esoteric a lot?? 05:39:23 Yes 05:39:28 ok. 05:39:39 Since like. you mention him at all as a person you know 05:39:54 Bike: did you know edwardk is the 5th most active user on github?? 05:39:59 are you suggesting the only people I know are from #esoteric 05:40:02 creepy 05:40:16 https://gist.github.com/paulmillr/2657075 05:40:18 none of us have ever talked to edwardk, we are just in his fanclub 05:40:37 i am in conal's fanc lub 05:40:39 are you suggesting the only people I know are from #esoteric <-- well. yes? 05:40:40 the joke is lub 05:40:46 Bike: well that's only like half true! 05:41:00 BUT WHICH HALF 05:41:12 hey Bike do you like kripke structures 05:41:33 i like kripke 05:41:36 so let's go with yes 05:41:46 oh 05:41:51 that doesn't work 05:41:52 wait fuck he's still alive 05:41:59 do you only like dead people 05:42:09 no i just, i thought he was dead 05:42:10 me too Bike. me too. i like you Bike. :-) 05:42:14 who ever heard of a living philosopher 05:42:19 watch out:-) 05:42:32 Bike: do you like de bruijn thingy 05:42:34 a wolf actually started howling right when you said that 05:42:36 good timing 05:42:41 shachaf: which thingy (probably yes either way) 05:42:45 the joke is the answer is yes no matter what thingy is 05:42:49 because de bruijn was the best 05:42:55 sounds good 05:43:13 "Note: MonadFix is included here for completeness (and because it is interesting) but seems not to be used much. " 05:43:31 Tell that to nwf! 05:43:46 The only way I know of to understand MonadFix is to read the PhD thesis that introduced it. 05:43:53 Fortunately it's a very readable thesis. 05:44:07 wow hm this is not really what scope means whatever 05:44:31 " One of the motivating examples given in the original paper describing MonadFix (see below) is encoding circuit descriptions." good to read huh 05:44:50 it reads like a novel 05:44:57 the joke is novel contribution to something or other 05:45:02 i don't know 05:45:04 help 05:46:17 "Why is this OK? Isn't fromJust almost as bad as unsafePerformIO? Well, usually, yes. " 05:46:28 Bike: scope? 05:46:42 nothing just being anal 05:46:50 me too 05:46:57 25/8/366 05:46:57 ScopedBikeVariables 05:47:08 > 25/8/366 05:47:09 8.53825136612022e-3 05:47:21 "The interesting thing to note is that maybeFix will never crash -- although it may, of course, fail to terminate." 05:47:38 whats that supposed to mean.................... 05:48:07 "It almost seems, spookily, that mfix is sending a value back in time to itself through the IORef" 05:48:07 crash, n.: fail to terminate (n. stands fro definition.) 05:48:24 i already made the n. stands for definition joke shachaf 05:48:24 spokily 05:48:25 In this case it probably means doing fromJust Nothing 05:48:30 elliott: ??????????????????? 05:48:38 im pretty sure i just invented it 05:48:41 which is "impossible" or whatever i dunno 05:49:18 Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. 05:49:26 oh god 05:49:31 fiora help somebody help 05:49:41 anybody 05:49:52 counterpoint: shachaf is wrong 05:50:06 Bike: A lens is a getter-setter pair. 05:50:15 Let's say a Foo contains a Bar and a Bar contains a Vaz 05:50:44 If you have a Lens Foo Bar and a Lens Bar Vaz you can construct a Lens Foo Vaz 05:50:58 Bike: just ignore him 05:51:00 And you can use it to get and set the Vaz inside the Foo. 05:51:42 > view (_1 . _2) (("hello",5),True) -- getter 05:51:44 5 05:51:52 > set (_1 . _2) 100 (("hello",5),True) -- setter 05:51:54 (("hello",100),True) 05:52:07 _1 is the lens for the first element of a tuple. 05:52:12 _2 is the lens for the second element of a tuple. 05:52:27 needs a catchier name 05:52:43 cadar, say 05:53:04 It's called a lens because it "focuses" on some part of a value. 05:53:21 Bike: Wait, did you mean that you don't want to learn about lenses? 05:53:25 I thought that was a joke. 05:53:34 no it meant... i don't know what it meantn. 05:53:41 this sounds kind of like the "zippers" in lyah. 05:54:21 Lens s a = (s -> a, s -> a -> s) 05:54:31 s is the outer type, a is the inner type. 05:54:35 That's a getter-setter pair. 05:54:48 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 05:54:54 You can write compose :: Lens s a -> Lens a x -> Lens s x 05:54:59 (Exercise: Write compose.) 05:55:07 There are also other representations of lenses that let you do a lot of things. 05:56:15 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:59:51 Bike: elliott thinks profunctors are too hard for you. 06:00:04 Are you going to take this sitting down?! 06:00:10 Well, it's true, I don't see how to compose the setters. 06:00:23 Are you talking about me elsewhere or are you just the same person dressed as two people? 06:00:42 we're two people dressed as the same person 06:00:50 Bike: Well, you'll have to use the getter too. 06:00:52 hanging out in #bike 06:00:52 You guys are pretty short. 06:00:58 Oh. Wow I forgot you could do that. 06:01:16 #bike is an actual channel? 06:01:34 imo everyone here but me should join #bike while i think about this stupid problem 06:01:42 There are bike channels on Freenode. 06:01:53 I wonder if I should mention it? 06:01:58 There are also train channels. 06:02:17 I think that's OK to mention. 06:02:19 If you like trains you should join #cslounge-trains 06:02:25 I made a #bike 06:02:27 I guess 06:03:41 Bike: wow, shachaf was really mean to you! 06:03:43 in your channel. 06:03:58 elliott: you didn't see the thing I did before you joined. 06:04:03 You all are bad at being in #bike. 06:04:04 /t Bike? more like Bestpersoneverike 06:04:05 Just so you know. 06:04:08 23:02 -!- #bike You're not a channel operator 06:04:30 Except Fiora. She's got this shit down. 06:04:38 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 06:04:46 bike you should join #bike 06:04:53 Fiora is too busy being in #fiora 06:05:49 Bike: btw it helps if you use "polymorphic lenses" 06:05:54 guys help this is too many irssi windows. 06:05:57 it makes the job easier 06:06:18 s -> a -> s, a -> x -> a, get s -> x -> s. So it's just... \s x -> set2 (get1 s) x, to write it in the horriblest way possible probably 06:06:37 \s -> set2 . get1 s 06:07:05 elliott: don't give Bike the pointfree bug 06:07:09 he's still free 06:07:13 There's still a point right there. 06:07:22 Is there an #orange? 06:07:56 I,I We'll surely avoid scurvy if we all eat an orange. 06:08:15 Is that a monkey island quote 06:08:24 and what the FUCK is I,I 06:08:27 stop that shit. 06:08:43 i literally heard that in guybrush's voice jesus 06:09:25 Oh, and the first part of compose is just . obviously 06:09:37 Right. 06:09:40 So that's what lenses are. 06:09:52 They let you do updates of things nested deep inside other things easily. 06:09:53 shachaf: hmm, if you do (s, a) -> s or (a, s) -> s does the composition of the setter look more symmterical/uniform? 06:09:59 In a purely-functional way. 06:10:13 elliott: I doubt it? 06:10:20 I mean, you still have to use the getter and the setter. 06:41:28 Bike: Want more lens puzzles? 06:41:42 why not. 06:41:47 Hmm. 06:41:52 OK, next lens thing: 06:42:00 You can make it "better" by adding more types. 06:42:08 type Lens s t a b = (s -> a, s -> b -> t) 06:42:21 This is better because now you can change the type of the inner field and it still works. 06:42:35 For example: Lens (e,a) (e,b) a b 06:42:47 > set _1 "hello" (1,2) 06:42:49 ("hello",2) 06:42:53 This wouldn't work with the Lens s a version. 06:43:12 But now you'll need to have lenses starting with b and t if you want to keep lensing, don't you? 06:43:17 Also it makes it easier to write code because the type system catches your mistakes. 06:43:22 ? 06:43:32 compose :: Lens s t a b -> Lens a b x y -> Lens s t x y 06:43:36 lens batman_the_animated_series 06:44:00 Bike: You're missing all the good anecdotes in #fiora by the way. 06:44:13 I've told several anecdotes. 06:44:31 I guess I can join #fiora. 06:49:31 Bike: you made an awful mistake 06:49:47 Was the mistake joining #esoteric? 06:50:08 I bet the mistake was reading this book by Aczel. 07:00:39 Fiora: You should talk about false sharing! 07:00:50 "best thing ever false sharing imo" 07:03:10 what about it @_@ 07:03:20 I don't know. 07:05:59 -!- Deewiant has joined. 07:13:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:15:28 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 07:36:34 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: me). 07:37:35 -!- epicmonkey_ has joined. 07:43:15 -!- carado has joined. 07:47:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:47:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:48:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 07:48:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:55:31 -!- Halite has joined. 07:56:53 grr 07:56:53 Halite: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 07:57:28 . 08:04:02 The reason I'm not wildly making up epic syntax is because it's hard to code it 08:24:07 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:42:25 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:54:48 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 09:02:39 `slist 09:02:46 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 09:03:03 What is `slist for? 09:03:05 ...slist 09:03:35 homestuck 09:04:11 So why is there both ^list and `slist? 09:04:34 list is a backup in case slist isn't working 09:04:51 I thought ^list was the canonical one 09:05:00 ^list 09:05:00 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 09:05:19 add me 09:05:20 ^list 09:05:20 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 09:05:23 it's two different bots, I think? 09:05:30 it's two bots 09:07:57 There's some bug in my Underhanded C contest code that is changing Taneb's number of BFFs to 0 09:08:24 I'm making a programming language. Wish me luck. 09:10:22 Taneb Y U NO HAVE FRIENDS 09:10:34 Because I try to have to many 09:11:31 Really naming one of my test variables "Taneb" is worth it for that reason 09:14:58 -!- monqy has joined. 09:20:10 Oh, I get it 09:20:26 I was cloning Taneb before he made friends 09:20:48 can I have friends 09:21:41 Fiora: I haven't added any yet 09:22:25 I was just going to use Fiora as a test case for someone who didn't have friends, at first 09:22:38 And then I was going to make Taneb and Fiora be friends 09:23:38 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:23:55 what 09:24:03 what ;-; 09:24:40 user ThatOtherPerson = user_init(1337, "David Beckley", "ThatOtherPerson"); 09:24:40 user Taneb = user_init(1234, "Nathan van Doorn", "Taneb"); 09:24:40 user_add_bff(&ThatOtherPerson, &Taneb); 09:24:45 user Fiora = user_init(101, "Someone Random", "Fiora"); 09:25:00 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 09:25:01 gasp Fiora's name is leaked! 09:25:09 oh monqy hello 09:25:19 i missed you 09:25:25 did you hear my anecdotes from before 09:25:36 wow. the system they describe for this years contest is actually kind of cool 09:25:49 minus the total silliness like credit card statements XD 09:25:52 anecdotes? 09:26:15 hmmm. I should try this contest, it sounds fun :3 09:26:26 monqy: ask elliott for details 09:26:31 ok 09:26:38 by details i mean whether they were good 09:26:42 ok 09:27:09 and yes my name is totally Someone Random 09:27:12 >:3 09:27:17 :D 09:27:20 <3 09:32:53 oerjan: Why did you leave #haskell? 09:33:03 -!- nooodl has joined. 09:44:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:45:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:59:48 is stacks an original programming language idea 10:00:18 ...not really 10:00:20 ahem 10:00:22 not stacks 10:00:23 queues 10:00:27 ...not really 10:00:31 :( 10:00:33 what IS 10:00:53 If I could tell you, it wouldn't be original 10:00:57 ... 10:01:08 my imagination is poop 10:05:16 http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas here, hope that helps 10:06:30 I really want to do the metametaprogramming one, but I'm not completely sure what that even means 10:06:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:14:57 I should make the queue number-only. 10:16:21 I've wanted to play nomic sometime in 2003-2005, and I finally got in 2008. I wanted to go in Second Life in 2004, and I finally got in in 2006. I wanted to go in Planetside in 2006, and I finally got in... I still haven't gotten in 10:16:36 That's a rather long time span 10:17:42 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:19:20 There should be an esoteric nomic 10:19:52 I thought nomic *was* esoteric nomic 10:20:02 unless you mean an #esoteric nomic 10:20:05 Yes 10:20:12 oh 10:20:12 And yes 10:34:14 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:36:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:38:09 -!- augur_ has joined. 10:50:09 Whoa, my sshfs command line tab-completed the remote path. 10:50:12 What year is it, again? 10:56:00 it is 2010 10:56:10 no wait 10:56:14 it's 1337 10:58:26 Oh 10:58:26 I just cannot make a new idea for my programming language 10:58:32 Better start beating the french then 10:58:45 why 10:58:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War 10:59:00 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 10:59:05 it's supposed to start now 10:59:21 Anyway, you could always implement an existing esolang instead 10:59:24 Such as Feather 11:02:56 At least according to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather, the Feather spec is even more ambiguous than the DCPU spec 11:26:01 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:30:17 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:34:52 -!- epicmonkey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:53:46 -!- nooodl has joined. 11:57:38 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:04:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:05:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:07:49 -!- nooga has joined. 12:10:59 -!- Halite has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:14:03 -!- augur has joined. 12:21:56 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:27:40 -!- nooga has joined. 12:29:42 -!- hkt has joined. 12:31:50 -!- hkt has quit (Client Quit). 12:33:56 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:34:24 -!- augur has joined. 12:38:30 -!- epicmonkey_ has joined. 12:39:06 -!- nooga_ has joined. 12:41:37 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:42:35 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:48:28 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:49:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:49:52 -!- augur has joined. 12:52:19 -!- Koen_ has joined. 12:54:36 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:09:47 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:17:23 The future's gonna be great 13:17:32 I HAVE SPOKEN 13:20:03 -!- augur has joined. 13:21:14 (thumbs up) 13:24:26 Who would be in for an #esoteric Nomic 13:27:05 you dont want to go back down that road 13:27:19 (several #esoteric people play agora however) 13:27:38 (or I guess "#esoteric is half the active agoran playerbase" is more accurate) 13:35:11 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 13:37:41 -!- boily has joined. 13:41:45 Taneb: try something with a self-modifying esolang 13:42:33 well or something like Emmental or Mascarpone 13:47:13 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:55:32 Taneb: so I hear they call you doctor van doom these days 13:55:57 Mainly oerjan and elliott 13:57:25 -!- fowl_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:57:58 Who's that comedian 13:58:02 The geordie one 13:58:35 Ross Noble 14:04:09 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 14:09:34 Ugh... JQuery... 14:11:08 jquery is nice. 14:11:36 6 months ago I would have agreed with you. 14:11:50 Now I just view it as overkill when CSS would do 14:12:53 what about ajax? 14:13:36 Okay, it's good for ajax 14:15:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: Try better next time. Level 7 status revoked. | H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 14:15:58 -!- Gregor has set topic: Try harder next time. Level 7 status revoked. | H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 14:16:55 uhm, what's that level 7 thingy? 14:17:10 The thing after the level 6 thingy 14:17:21 you vile mathematician answerer. 14:17:33 boily, it's been revoked. 14:17:37 We probably spend more time explaining this to regular people than people confusing it to the official freenode thing stay confused. 14:17:38 Now you'll never know 14:18:14 now I know I should be confused by the issue, and that's something I'm good with at. 14:18:18 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Try harder next time. Level 7 status revoked. | XQAAgAD//////////wAgnApGq03V4cQiqbdWT15vZ1CW/rSxi4DGHmNGLlT9jrx///b94AA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 14:19:48 boily, do you play dwarf fortress 14:20:22 not yet. 14:24:49 Taneb: imo Taneb -> me -> Phantom_Hoover -> monqy succession fort 14:25:03 Oh no 14:25:05 That means I start 14:25:11 feel free to swap you and ph!! 14:25:50 I think everything suddenly became clearer, except it concerns DF, so maybe not. 14:29:02 boily can be added to that list iff he admits France isn't real. 14:29:39 no problem about France. last time I went there it was in 2003, and for all I know it's a figment of my coffee-deprived imagination. 14:30:25 Back in the BBS days, I thought I should get me some of that VGA Planets goodness, those people were swapping .TRNs like no tomorrow. (Then I did nothing.) 14:30:48 boily: note: quebec is part of france. 14:31:23 elliott: st-pierre et miquelon are the last two remaining french territories near here (fsvo near). 14:31:38 Québec is part of Canada, or not, depending on how you feel today and perhaps moon phases. 14:31:41 you're saying a bunch of nonsense. characteristic of a french person. 14:31:48 no, canada is american, not french 14:33:02 Huh, there still is a VGA Planets 5 under development, and it's now a realtime multiplayer online thing. 14:33:21 We can cope without flux stone, right? 14:33:49 "VGA Planets 5 StarCube (under development) is a new version of VGA Planets which is played as a real time multiplayer online game --" StarCube === TimeCube? 14:34:47 elliott: by the way, there's this small text file I forgot I had, and it reminded me that I don't have your coordinates and your body mass yet. 14:34:53 “which is played as a real time multiplayer online game” // it's played AS a multiplayer online game. It's not actually online, it just doesn't let you pause and calls you a fag every 10 minutes. 14:37:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:38:03 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:39:00 boily: 72⅛ and 3, respectively. 14:43:30 oh well. I'll go with that, and extrapolate more precise infos thereafter... 14:45:32 (and or use coercive manœuvres to extract these precious tidbits from you) 14:52:13 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:10:18 It's time to have blood removed from my veins if I am deemed worthy 15:10:26 elliott, stay away from the Mart. 15:10:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:10:38 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 15:11:53 wait, what mart 15:11:56 oh 15:20:23 elliott: imo go to the Mart 15:20:41 no 15:26:19 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 15:29:23 -!- nooodl^ has joined. 15:34:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:42:13 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:43:41 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:44:44 Apparently you need an appointment to have blood removed from your veins if you're deemed worthy 15:44:46 Who know 15:48:23 *knew 15:48:50 How know, brown glow 15:49:55 -!- Bike has joined. 15:49:59 -!- conehead has joined. 15:51:50 -!- augur has joined. 15:53:51 elliott, pig tails or cave wheat 15:54:31 yes 15:54:47 Which should be the autumn harverst 15:56:57 I'm leaning to pig tails 15:57:34 Freaks Phone Number Out At 15:57:46 http://sprunge.us/JCZA Well, that was remarkably stupid. 15:57:47 those have gotta be five instructions from an esolang 15:58:58 The number freaks are out: phone. 16:00:24 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 16:03:48 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:12:20 http://rnd.fi/countation/ 16:12:21 What shall we call the fortress 16:12:30 count the dots 16:12:32 in 10 seconds 16:12:33 fizzie: mesg is hardcore hacking. 16:12:38 tell me your score 16:12:50 Gregor: Is very clever, yes. 16:13:59 my record is 39 16:17:53 I got tired at 19. Somehow, as far as dots go, it was not as entertaining as DOT ACTION. 16:18:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:18:29 it's pretty boring up to 20 16:18:39 then again it takes about 10 seconds to get there 16:18:50 elliott, suggest a name for the fortress or it gets called "Homestuck" 16:19:03 now 40 16:19:21 Taneb: i think monqy might suffer a lot playing a fortress called homestuck and im too sleep deprived to come up with a name that isnt terrible 16:19:25 so whati m saying is go for it 16:20:05 IT IS TIME TO EMBARK 16:21:41 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:21:43 Taneb: i hope this fortress is really stupid in a least one way 16:21:49 like in terms of the embark 16:21:59 also I'm still going to dig to hell 16:22:02 well it's df aren't they going to all die horribly either way 16:22:03 Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 16:22:24 you just don't understand Bike. i only care about the exquisite deaths 16:22:24 elliott, I'll hide the pickaxe 16:22:34 http://24.media.tumblr.com/7ec8d47c6a8ce5feb39a86a1ee08fdcb/tumblr_mhw700Z83g1s0s0n5o1_500.jpg 16:24:02 elliott, good news! 16:24:22 do you mean bad news 16:24:26 if it's good news i'm not interested 16:24:40 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 16:24:40 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 16:24:40 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 16:25:37 -!- augur has joined. 16:26:03 best 26 16:26:33 cool 16:26:50 that was the second most boring thing I did today 16:26:53 :( 16:27:05 how do people not like to count dots 16:27:45 there was some suspense when one of the dots thied to hide behind a dead pixel though 16:30:03 how do you count them? 16:31:44 I counted in groups of five. 16:31:47 me too 16:32:01 I in 3 or 4 16:32:14 so no one agrees it's fun? :( 16:32:31 maybe i'm a martian or something 16:32:48 Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is almost isomorphic to Binary Lambda Calculus 16:33:22 -!- ogrom has joined. 16:33:35 with LAMBDA <-> 00, APPLY <-> 01, ZERO <-> 10, ONE MORE THAN<->1 16:34:19 tromp_, I think that's because both are lambda calculus with peano numerals 16:35:08 And de Bruijn indicies 16:35:35 only real difference is character encoding 16:35:47 Church numerals vs bit lists 16:35:59 Are you the John Tromp names on the Wikipedia page for BLC? 16:36:06 yup 16:37:15 why'd you name it after a sucky movie:-? 16:38:20 It was named after a spam page 16:38:53 Advertising a "Real fast download" for Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster 16:39:29 (which I have not seen) 16:39:38 me neither 16:40:14 And I have no intention of seeing it, either 16:40:18 i fear watching it is an even bigger waste of time than downloading it:( 16:40:38 For some reason I was under the impression that it was a game. 16:41:53 Koen_: what was the most boring thing? 16:42:22 uh well there's this very rich guy who just announced he had created his own computer science school 16:42:39 and hmm the admission tests are online 16:42:44 I passed the first today 16:42:56 aaaaaaand that was one hour of solving tangram puzzles 16:43:26 well half an hour 16:43:59 you don't like tangram puzzles? 16:44:11 sorry let me rephrase that 16:44:17 my game is better than tangram puzzles? 16:46:17 -!- carado has joined. 16:48:22 * oklofok is making an even better game 16:49:04 countation 2: the revenge of the dots 16:49:07 3D 16:49:11 64 16:50:33 : Modern Warfare 16:59:08 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 17:03:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:10:43 -!- augur has joined. 17:15:30 -!- btiffin has joined. 17:18:31 hey you guys 17:18:50 any idea what xkcd's hash thing is? 17:19:03 oklofok: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell yes 17:19:23 woohoo 17:19:43 but that's probably mainly because I had the liberty to stop at any point 17:20:05 whereas for every tangram puzzle I was desperately hoping it was the last 17:20:19 and always wrong (except for the last) 17:20:56 Taneb: there seems to be a problem with your Nora implementation 17:21:22 when i port the blc prime number sieve to it, it hangs 17:22:19 leaving out the sieving step it produces the expected "0011111111..." though 17:22:41 Koen_: As far as I know, it's just a hash thing. As in, you try to find input that's as close as possible to the specified hash. 17:23:02 sounds fun 17:23:15 so basically you bruteforce it? 17:23:26 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:23:31 Unless you happen to have a better-than-bruteforce preimage attack on Skein. 17:24:17 -!- nooga has joined. 17:24:17 (The best.csv rankings are Hamming distances i.e. number of wrong bits.) 17:24:22 tromp_, I think it was oerjan who wrote 17:24:23 it 17:24:27 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 17:25:06 Given what the list looks like, I guess it only accepts .ac.uk and .edu domains? 17:25:26 ok; tell him when you see him:) 17:25:32 (So can't participate.) 17:25:41 i can debug it when i have more spare time 17:26:22 He usually logreads, so perhaps no particular need to tell (or @tell). 17:27:45 fizzie: It says "School not found" on attempting to add aalto.fi so it's possible that it just has a whitelist of complete domains 17:28:11 Deewiant: Yes, well, sure, but a whitelist of just .ac.uk and .edu names. 17:28:32 Right 17:28:59 it doesn't reject u-psud.fr 17:28:59 Oh, there's a few .edu.au's in there too. 17:30:09 (I didn't notice because I grep -v'd ".edu" in general.) 17:30:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:30:56 Koen_: That's funny, since there's really no .fr's in best.csv, and I would think it's a complete list since the last entries go up to 506 wrong bits. 17:31:35 Koen_: It will say "School not found" only after you give it some data, FWIW. 17:31:39 It does reject u-psud.fr 17:31:40 oooh ok 17:34:48 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 17:34:49 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 17:34:49 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 17:40:34 -!- Frooxius has joined. 17:41:44 -!- Madoka-Kaname has changed nick to Lymia. 17:42:32 -!- augur has joined. 17:43:53 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 17:47:42 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:48:07 -!- Frooxius has joined. 17:48:14 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 17:52:16 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:54:56 -!- atriq has joined. 18:00:09 -!- Cryovat has joined. 18:06:11 -!- metasepia has joined. 18:06:40 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:06:49 -!- carado has joined. 18:16:39 http://rnd.fi/findit/ next game 18:17:04 this one i suck at 18:22:01 uh... what is it?????? 18:24:34 -!- epicmonkey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:25:27 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:26:41 oklofok, how bad's bad? 18:26:41 -!- heroux has joined. 18:26:50 68 on first try 18:27:20 i was hoping the target hash value was a 32 x 32 monochrome image 18:27:20 kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 18:27:25 but it doesn't seem to me anything recognizable 18:27:48 oh another thing: in alaska they have power outlets at every parking space so that you can plug in an electric heater for your engine block 18:27:52 otherwise it freezes 18:27:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:28:09 oops 18:28:16 i think the version online was impossible to fail. 18:28:20 should be fixed 18:28:58 atriq: i didn't really try it yet, but based on other players it's way too easy atm 18:29:23 have to do other stuff now 18:29:38 you're all welcome for the games 18:37:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:38:09 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 18:39:51 @messages? 18:39:52 Sorry, no messages today. 18:41:15 Hi, ais523 and ThatOtherPerson 18:41:28 hi atriq 18:46:56 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:47:02 Hi Taneb! 18:47:26 What's with the atriqness? 18:47:34 Two computers 18:47:45 Can't be bothered to go upstairs to turn my computer off 18:47:50 So I'm down here on my laptop 18:48:36 mosh + irssi in the cloud 18:48:38 it's the only way to fly 18:48:53 You could ghost Taneb 18:48:59 I would like to see an implementation of Checkout in Verilog (even a partial one), if such a thing might exist. 18:49:02 ThatOtherPerson, it's set to reconnect automatically 18:49:12 heh :D 18:49:22 The easiest thing to do would be to ssh in and kill the process 18:49:26 But there's not much point 18:50:38 -!- btiffin has left. 18:54:37 ais523: If you know VHDL, maybe you would know how difficult it might be to fix the Storm core to do certain things differently and what would be the advantages/disadvantages of doing so. 18:54:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:54:59 zzo38: I don't know what the Storm core is, nor am I particularly interested in it 18:55:26 It is a ARMv2 clone (so is Amber), but Storm is in VHDL rather than Verilog and is not specific to Xilinx devices 18:56:06 The title says ARM7 but the documentation says ARMv2 (ARM7 is ARMv3) 18:57:01 ThatOtherPerson, how's the underhanded C coming along? 18:57:14 Rather underhandedly 18:57:30 I haven't worked on it for quite a few hours 18:57:33 ooh, is the UCC up again? 18:57:48 Yep 18:58:20 -!- Bike has joined. 18:58:46 The site's down 18:58:50 But it had a new callenge 18:59:05 challenge 18:59:06 thing 18:59:56 ais523: Basically, some sort of Facebook like thing, where access privileges are dependant on the number of connections between you and the page that you are viewing 19:00:06 *person whose page 19:00:15 hmm 19:00:48 Designated by DERPCON level 19:02:02 I'm BFFs with my art teacher, Mr. Gomez; he's BFFs with Lisa Brennan-Jobs; she's BFFs with Steve Jobs; which means I am at DERPCON 3 with Steve Jobs 19:02:04 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 19:02:58 And DERPCON 5 with Tony Blair 19:04:30 But the goal is to make the DERPCON function return a low DERPCON level whenever your account is one of the ones being compared 19:04:43 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:04:47 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:05:23 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 19:08:05 > fix (\k l -> case l of [] -> 0; (x:xs) -> x + k xs) [1..10] 19:08:07 55 19:11:52 How fast will a programmable clock divider be in FPGA? 19:12:06 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:14:36 always@(posedge Clock) if(|Count) Count<=Count-1; else fork Count<=Period; Out<=~Out; join Probably something like this, I guess (or is there a better way?) 19:15:02 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:18:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:20:02 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:23:57 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:24:01 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 19:24:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:30:52 -!- epicmonkey_ has joined. 19:32:22 -!- epicmonkey_ has quit (Client Quit). 19:32:41 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:33:40 I think I'll go back to working on my Lisp interpreter 19:35:42 Hey, if the halting problem were solved, it'd be easy to solve things like the collatz conjecture, right? 19:36:27 no 19:36:39 The halting problem is not a quandary to be solved. It is not P=?NP. 19:36:49 atriq: assuming you could solve it for programs using the method. 19:36:49 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 19:36:55 However, if the halting problem were SOLVABLE, lots of things would be... different. 19:36:58 @messages 19:36:58 Halite said 11h 27m 7s ago: 1) That's true, sadly. But if your imagination touches the wildly syntaxed, you can get interesting syntax. 2) What a good fact. I shouldn't be reading the books kmc told 19:36:59 me to read online, to create a genuinely new idea. 19:37:02 collatz is not finitely refutable 19:37:16 but goldbach and RH are... 19:37:28 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 19:37:33 You could just write a program to test the collatz chains of increasing integers and see if it halts, couldn't you 19:37:36 hi oerjan 19:37:42 hi tromp_ 19:37:56 i told Taneb his Nora implementation appears to be buggy 19:38:02 he said you wrote it 19:38:08 oerjan: what was your #2 again, i just want to confirm that halite said something dumb out of his own volition rather than yours 19:38:34 you have no upper bound on chain length 19:39:22 atriq: you would need to use the halting solution to check each number, and then use the halting solution on the infinite loop of programs constructed that way. but if you could do that, you could solve collatz. 19:39:50 Bike: i am going to have to check 19:40:22 `pastelogs @tell halite 19:41:09 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.359 19:41:46 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 19:43:05 Bike: well he seems to miss the part that my (1) implies he _should_ read books. 19:43:34 oh "interesting syntax" 19:43:35 god 19:44:21 I don't aim for originality. 19:44:31 Luigi is really unoriginal, as is MIBBLLII 19:45:02 And Real Fast Nora's Heair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is Binary lambda calculus mixed with BIT 19:45:33 @tell halite I was implying that syntax is rarely very interesting, even if weird. And if you want to actually get interesting syntax you are going to need to read books about parsing theory. 19:45:34 Consider it noted. 19:46:06 Interesting syntax: mixed prefix/postfix/infix? 19:46:14 Who knows 19:46:23 re Halite: wat 19:46:44 @tell halite Syntax can add flavor to a language, but it will not be truly interesting without another fundamental idea. 19:46:45 Consider it noted. 19:47:13 atriq: not sufficiently advanced parsing theory, sorry 19:47:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:47:38 Perhaps one day I should read up on parsing theory 19:48:20 Good night! 19:48:45 Night 19:48:52 I do think many things can be made as a halting problem, such as Fermat's Last Theorem, and possibly a large number of other things can be made as a program which you figure out if it halts or not. It can also be done that a proof of some theorem is also allow you to know that it halts or it doesn't halts. Even things like 2+2=4 like while(2+2!=4); It halts because 2+2=4 19:49:02 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:49:51 i wanna be smart and interesting but i don't want to read any books or listen to what anyone else has to say waaah waaah 19:50:02 jesus 19:50:07 kids these days, get off my lawn, &c. 19:50:18 tromp_: wait what do you mean by chain length, i though i was checking for exceeded depth in the interpreter during parsing... 19:51:07 oerjan: I'm not 100% sure; I think if the syntax is sufficiently complex, you might be able to get away with just concat and eval for making a language TC 19:51:15 via concat completely changing the meaning of the rest of the code 19:51:23 obviously, complex syntax without eval is pointless 19:51:35 oerjan, that was a comment about collatz problem 19:51:46 kmc: "Nothing is more usual and more natural for those, who pretend to discover anything new to the world in philosophy and the sciences, than to insinuate the praises of their own systems, by decrying all those, which have been advanced before them." here now you have an old quote to pretentiously quote at people 19:52:11 thanks Bike 19:52:20 who says? 19:52:22 hume 19:52:24 i guess this is not a new phenomenon 19:52:32 it's also one of the canonical signs of a crackpot 19:52:42 Hu, me? 19:52:47 owww 19:52:51 oerjan: the nora implentation failed on a port of the BLC prime number sieve 19:53:08 kmc: speaking of books, apparently hard copies of the gigantic mega intel manuals exist 19:53:12 http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/IntelSDM 19:53:20 Intel sells them through a print on demand service XD 19:53:35 tromp_: oops? 19:53:51 * boily hits shachaf with a properly dulled cast iron bludgeon with a quarter-inch polystyrene padding 19:54:54 oerjan: Maybe you should swat someone sometime. 19:55:00 Or hit them with the pan. 19:55:12 It's been decades (practically). 19:55:58 ais523: ok obviously it is _possible_ to make interesting syntax. 19:56:49 but yes, mostly it's for flavour 19:56:55 or recognisability 19:56:57 Fiora: I heard you used to be able to order them for free 19:57:02 really? wow 19:57:05 i know people who aren't even that old & crufty who got copies this way 19:57:19 say, Forte would still work even if it didn't look like BASIC 19:57:31 I'd worry about export restrictions. given their size they must classify as weapons :p 19:57:33 but having it look like something familiar makes it easier to grasp how it works 19:57:41 free books are useful, you can use them as food for mushrooms 19:58:08 AVX mushrooms 19:58:15 yes 19:58:21 i heard you used to be able to order monoids for free 19:58:23 converting digikey catalogs into food 19:58:29 but it's a scam -- they're actually free commutative monoids 19:58:31 this will be the new survival skill in the postapocalyptic future 19:58:40 vpermushroomd 19:58:41 except you need like a pressure cooker and good sterile technique and stuff 19:58:44 ++++ 19:59:00 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 19:59:02 kmushroomd 19:59:10 Is a free commutative monoid like a multiset? 19:59:25 sounds like one 19:59:42 and a free monoid is just a list / string 20:00:07 Haskell should rename [] to FreeMonoid to emphasize the language's rich mathematical underpinnings 20:00:15 plus, who doesn't like free things 20:00:17 sort of related: vpshufb dst, src, mask vpshufd dst, src, mask vpermq dst, src, mask vpermd dst, mask, src I don't think Intel believes in consistency 20:00:23 Sadly Haskell is bad at free commutative monoids. 20:00:27 Fiora: D: 20:00:37 do I even want to know if the difference is reflected in AT&T syntax 20:00:49 (I can see the logic: it lets you do vpermd dst, mask, [src], so you can load-shuffle, but....) 20:01:00 However you can use this representation: newtype Bag a = Bag { runBag :: forall r. CommutativeMonoid r => (a -> r) -> r } 20:01:01 (since only the rightmost can be a memory operand) 20:01:09 but gosh. the /inconsistency/ gets me 20:01:13 But it's awful. 20:01:16 is a free commutative monoid a quotient of a free monoid by a permutation group? 20:01:30 is this a meaningful thing to say 20:01:39 I spent like 30 minutes trying to figure out why my avx2 code wasn't wrking when I first encountered vpermd 20:01:45 and then I finally looked up the definition 20:01:47 kmc: sounds cromulent 20:01:48 and I was like whaaaaaaattttt 20:02:08 i want to see a graph of the number of pages in the Intel manual over time 20:02:21 oh Fiora have you done anything with the VMX virtualization instructions? 20:03:03 nope, I've never written code for a VM or something like that, I have only the foggiest idea of how they work 20:03:06 they seem really complicated 20:03:08 yep 20:03:39 kmc: It could be renamed to FreeMonoid, although List is shorter. But I do think that [] ought to be a macro which is an alias for that type and that value. 20:03:41 one neat / strange thing about them is that they provide a hardware-defined way to write pretty much all of the ISA-level processor state out to memory 20:03:48 because that's how you context switch between VMs 20:04:00 ooh. so like, more than xsave+friends? 20:04:04 it includes some things that normally aren't directly accessible, like the segment descriptors that have been loaded by segment selectors 20:04:09 yeah I think so 20:04:26 kmc: when your algebra isn't a group you take quotients by congruences instead of kernels. 20:04:30 I can't find them in the regular instructino reference... >_< 20:04:34 Fiora: why can't i get intel_combined_manual.pdf as one book :'( 20:04:53 shachaf: I think it might collapse into a black hole in trasit 20:04:54 *transit 20:04:59 It's only 4128 pages. 20:05:06 oh. 3A-3C not 2A-2C... 20:05:18 And they're not even huge pages. 20:05:26 is that a pun 20:05:27 So it's just ~16MB 20:05:36 harr harr 20:05:37 the super high level overview of VMX is, you point the CPU at such a structure, you invoke the VMENTER instruction, then it runs using that state, and eventually returns and you can inspect the state and see what happened 20:05:53 there are various conditions that will cause it to exit virtualization, analogous to traps 20:06:22 1378 pages @_@ 20:06:26 I don't know much about the details though, just skimmed some of the manual when trying to fix a Ksplice bug 20:06:49 hack the planet! 20:07:00 Fiora, that's significantly less than Homestuck 20:07:01 "A logical processor usesvirtual-machine control data structures(VMCSs) while it is in VMX operation. " 20:07:43 oh wow, the structure is impleemntation-specific XD 20:07:57 one of these days I should modify my copy of JOS (the 6.828 toy OS) to support harware virtualization 20:08:00 that sounds like a fun project 20:08:09 oh Fiora have you seen http://www.returninfinity.com/pure64.html 20:08:49 virtualization is sort of boringly close to normal multi-tasking and protection 20:09:05 another silly thing I want to make is a 64-bit multitasking OS that fits in a DOS MBR boot sector 20:09:14 olsner: yes but a lot more complicated and therefore more secure (????????) 20:09:15 (in principle, that is... of course they use completely different mechanisms for hysterical raisins) 20:10:13 " 3) VMFUNC is an operation provided by the processor that can be invoked from VMX non-root operation without a VM exit." oooh 20:10:58 is that for hypercalls? 20:11:07 (back in ~1h, gotta do an interview) 20:11:17 I'm guessing? or maybe like instructions that'd require host emulation 20:11:19 good luck!! 20:11:54 hmm, the bochs code that emulates vmfunc makes it look pretty limited 20:12:01 MBR code is not really specific to DOS; it is a function of a PC, isn't it? And the MBR code is very small so a 64-bit multitasking OS probably won't fit, although there are many things that might fit. One thing I want to make in there, but possibly adding another sector, is a subset of the DOS functions and one COM program is then added on to make a bootable disk image (not all COM programs will run, of course) 20:12:36 I think Esoteric Verilog needs a "quwire" command, although I am not entirely sure how it would work. 20:12:58 Mostly because I don't know much about quantum computer hardware. 20:14:17 hi GOMADWarrior, please do not troll #haskell 20:14:27 (http://code.metager.de/source/xref/bochs/bochs/cpu/vmfunc.cc) 20:15:06 I didn't 20:15:54 guys are too serious 20:16:48 hmm, otoh, EPTP switching sounds like it's a replacement for setting cr3 which probably requires a "help, privileged instruction" vmexit 20:19:04 Oops they are removing the Nostalgia skin from Wikipedia 20:23:23 I restored all the old quotes. 20:23:31 s/all/some of/ 20:23:33 @quote oerjan 20:23:33 oerjan says: @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) " 20:23:40 @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) " 20:23:41 what happened to the quotes? 20:23:42 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:23:42 @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) " 20:23:47 lambdabot happened 20:23:49 @quote kmc 20:23:49 kmc says: Rule number 1 of Haskell talks: use Comic Sans MS. 20:23:49 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:24:47 @quote Taneb 20:24:47 Taneb says: lens has got to be the only library with more contributors than people who know how it works 20:25:14 @quote atriq 20:25:14 atriq says: My son looks a bit like me, he can put away the plates after dinner now thanks to edwardk! 20:25:33 I think that's something to do with lens 20:26:39 you son? do you have children? 20:26:48 *your 20:27:12 I do not 20:27:18 btw, new Enigma version released 20:27:39 they announced it yesterday in the hope that nobody would believe it, but I checked the repo and there was a bunch of activity 20:27:55 Oh no! 20:28:08 We'll have to figure it out without Turing, I guess. 20:28:42 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:30:25 @quote welsh 20:30:25 No quotes match. Sorry. 20:30:54 in all the years of #haskell no-one's made fun of the welsh yet? 20:33:25 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 20:34:57 `quote welsh 20:34:59 816) !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words \ 939) as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just lik 20:35:14 `quote 939 20:35:15 939) as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just like welsh ll" or "that's just like klingon tlh" 20:41:07 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 21:01:41 back 21:01:53 `quote back 21:01:55 76) let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 136) Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue. \ 210) I need a new desktop background j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spi 21:02:24 zzo38: you're right, it's part of the IBM PC platform. i guess I said "DOS MBR" because that's the colloquial name used for the partition table format in e.g. Linux kernel, even though clearly the BIOS needs to know this format as well 21:03:26 doesn't the bios just load the first sector of the drive to a well-known location and jump to it? I don't think it has to mess with the partition table at all 21:03:52 (presumably the MBR has the stuff for finding a bootable partition and chainloading and whatnot) 21:05:21 well I think the format is actually: 446 bytes of ia16 machine code; partition table; magic string 0x55 0xAA 21:05:33 and the BIOS will look for the latter even if it doesn't care about the partition table 21:06:29 (well the first part doesn't have to be all machine code, just the first instruction :) 21:07:19 you should make a polyglot mbr 21:07:27 how does that work 21:07:53 how do mbr-ish things on systems other than IBM-PC-DOS-compatible-etc. work 21:07:55 I wonder if it's even possible to make a combination polyglot arm/x86 program 21:07:58 or something similar 21:08:04 Fiora: I think I've seen one 21:08:08 wow 21:08:23 -!- Canaimero-04c1 has joined. 21:08:23 x86 has a lot of 1 byte relative jumps 21:08:33 wait maybe I wrote one... 21:08:36 ah, so you could just jump to a separate x86 chunk of code 21:08:40 yep 21:08:42 using a jump that gets interpreted as some other valid instruction on arm 21:08:47 I guess that's kind of cheating XD 21:08:58 Cheating is the point. 21:09:39 that's how my Haskell - C - Python - Sh - Brainfuck - .COM file polyglot works 21:09:55 .... com file? XD 21:10:08 e0 is loop on x86 and (iirc) the first byte of an unconditional arm instruction, so if you assume something about cx that might get you going 21:10:09 yeah a COM file is just raw ia16 machine code 21:10:12 at most 64kB of it 21:10:14 kmc: You should get a .com domain name and serve it from there. 21:10:15 no header 21:10:27 loaded at a fixed address 21:11:11 my program starts with 'or bh, [bx+si+0x78]; jno 0x42' 21:11:33 and 'or' sets OF=0 unconditionally 21:11:38 I like the DOS .COM executable format; it is good. My also computer I plan to make (codenamed POWERXY) also I intend to use headerless executable format, but without processor segments. 21:11:40 I,I x86 has a 1-byte relative jump with offset 0 21:12:50 oh this also entailed making a printable-chars-only .COM file 21:13:03 O_O that's like the no null rule of shellcode, except worse 21:13:08 echo 'h<|XP- {P_X(%GGG(%GGWZ- sh LI!XI!Hello, DOS!$' > hello.com && dosbox hello.com 21:13:21 -!- Canaimero-04c1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:13:24 It's much worse -- I think you can't do it without self-modifying code, or something. 21:13:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:13:31 that's.... wooow 21:13:32 yeah mine has some 21:13:51 this is getting dangerously close to being on-topic 21:13:55 for one wargame puzzle I had to construct shellcode where every other 16-bit word was 0 21:14:06 @___@ 21:14:06 Unknown command, try @list 21:14:12 gosh I should try one of those sometime, those sound fun 21:14:14 what does that do in x86? some sort of boring arithmetic instruction, isn't it? 21:14:17 even if they're probably mostly beyond me 21:14:37 Fiora: http://io.smashthestack.org:84/ 21:14:58 kmc: was that utf-32 or something 21:15:00 ais523: what does which do? 21:15:07 kmc: 16 bits of zeroes 21:15:09 shachaf: no although I started trying to do the same thing before for utf-32 21:15:30 it's add [eax], al 21:15:38 right 21:15:43 which means eax does need to point to a valid bit of memory that you don't mind clobbering 21:15:51 yeah 21:16:08 that doesn't seem so nasty 21:16:09 i should install udcli in HackEgo 21:16:35 ais523: yeah I just put 'mov eax, ebp' as the first instruction 21:16:39 `run cabal install hdis86 21:16:40 bash: cabal: command not found 21:16:43 kmc: ooh, neat 21:16:55 ebp is guaranteed to be valid, and yet you don't have to use it for anything 21:16:56 then i had to build the payload (just an indirect jump actually) out of 1-2 byte instructions but that wasn't so bad 21:17:11 kmc: I'm reminded of writing printable .COM files 21:17:13 since you have a 2-byte mov to bh/bl and a 1 byte push and pop 21:17:16 and a 2 byte shift 21:17:18 the idea being that you don't have any uudecode on DOS by default 21:17:24 so the first step would be to type the program in :) 21:17:24 ais523: yeah 21:17:36 -!- Canaimero-04c1 has joined. 21:17:36 the main difficulty there is that you don't have any control flow instructions 21:17:48 so you have to modify your own code to put a jump instruction there 21:18:19 Or you could find some indirect jump instruction and use that? 21:18:21 Fiora: the io wargame is really fun, and it starts out pretty accessible even if you don't have lots of exploit experience 21:18:35 shachaf: all the control flow instructions in x86 are unprintable, I think 21:18:49 there are a few levels in there that count as among the most fun programming challenges i've done 21:18:51 ais523: Oh, you're back to printable code. 21:18:57 :o 21:19:15 ais523: Right, I seem to remember that that wasn't possible without self-modifying code. 21:19:16 * Fiora will definitely go try that later 21:19:35 ais523: nah, the relative conditional jumps are printable 21:19:37 -!- monqy has joined. 21:19:43 kmc: which characters? 21:19:59 Oh, maybe I'm thinking of alphanumeric. 21:20:00 713d is jno 0x42 21:20:03 I remember I worked it out in reverse, by writing out a bunch of printable characters then disassembling 21:20:05 which is ASCII "q=" 21:20:08 right 21:20:12 yeah i did that too 21:20:19 jno = jump if not odd? jump if not over? 21:20:25 x86 conditional jumps annoy me a lot 21:20:35 due to having ridiculous names 21:20:46 not overflow 21:20:48 oh, or jump on no overflow? 21:20:52 my printable com file doesn't have jumps though https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/2971501 21:20:59 but it's not a uudecoder or anything, just a hello world 21:21:21 s/conditional jump/instruction mnemonic/? 21:21:58 Fiora: also a while back there was http://io.smashthestack.org:84/intro/ 21:21:59 int is a jump! 21:22:11 fizzie: u-psud.fr definitely works now (for the xkcd thing) 21:22:29 but I think he removed a restriction or something 21:22:44 shachaf: apparently they also did http://io.smashthestack.org/arm/ 21:22:49 oh FreeFull entered into this one? cool 21:23:17 =P 21:23:20 Oh, I didn't hear about that. 21:23:21 let me rephrase that - one of the schools in the list if cuntfisting.com so he most definitely removed all restrictions on domain names 21:23:33 kmc: My entry was far from the best =P 21:23:46 Koen_: a prestigious institution of higher learning 21:24:17 wow they've gotten spammed recently 21:24:18 who do I send my application to? 21:24:32 seems to be mostly porn sites now 21:24:39 also, why are there so many people with exactly 409 bits wrong? 21:24:47 is their some trivial algorithm to get 409? 21:25:04 I entered a random string and I got 529 or something 21:25:06 i don't think there's any algorithm 21:25:09 what's that xkcd about? the image doesn't load 21:25:18 i think probably somebody found a 409 solution and sumbitted it a bunch of times 21:25:26 reversing a hash? 21:25:36 yeah 21:25:41 kmc: What I did is display RGB shaded circles moving out 21:25:46 But then apply xor to make it funky 21:25:57 the comic is too complicated for me 21:26:07 but apparently there's a reversing a hash contest going on 21:26:10 ais523: if you get smallest hamming distance to the hash output listed at http://almamater.xkcd.com/ then your school gets in panel 1 of the strip 21:26:17 kmc: right 21:26:25 ooooh 21:27:11 Even the Nostalgia skin in Wikipedia now is adding too many things, and yet they will remove it anyways; I think something like this would be better: http://sprunge.us/Jgci 21:27:35 -!- kwikrick has joined. 21:27:54 zzo38: you can use myskin, that has no styling by default, you add the styling yourself 21:28:27 (hmm... the timely xkcd thing is still going strong. what the fungot is going on, I wonder...) 21:28:28 boily: what is up with this: 21:28:38 fungot: well, that's what I'm asking for. 21:28:38 boily: fnord is executed just before the tilt. oleg is very good, either. 21:29:03 fungot: I concur, but what relation has type hackery to a very, very slow comic? 21:29:04 boily: not any extant ones. they should know better, i'd use that. but as far as rsbac is concerned, so you 21:29:12 ~duck rsbac 21:29:14 RSBAC is an open source access control framework for current Linux kernels, which has been in stable production use since January 2000. 21:29:29 fungot: rsbac 21:29:29 olsner: hello. anyone know of a tool for exploration of ideas". i guess 21:29:33 ~duck INTERCAL 21:29:34 INTERCAL is an esoteric programming language that was created as a parody by Don Woods and James M. Lyon, two Princeton University students, in 1972. 21:29:34 yet again I'm confused. 21:30:08 ais523: They still add all sorts of CSS and JavaScripts; I don't want styling at all, whether I add it myself or not. 21:30:15 theory: ~duck asks duckduckgo for information about a topic, duckduckgo gets it from wikipedia 21:30:27 zzo38: you could disable css and js in the browser 21:30:27 Koen_: Yes, and consequently the best.csv now has all kinds of things that are not universities. 21:30:45 Like a Finnish computer game magazine. 21:30:57 I wonder who's responsible for that! 21:31:46 you know what? sound is too approximate 21:31:57 Yes, I could, but still, those skins require it (even Nostalgia requires it, although it is otherwise the best one) 21:31:58 I can't hear something, then reproduce it well enough for people to understand, necessarily 21:33:22 There's also quite a lot of porn-sounding domains. 21:33:34 noooooooo 21:33:40 ~duck sounding 21:33:40 Sounding generally refers to a mechanism of probing the environment by sending out some kind of stimulus. 21:33:42 they sound like legit schools 21:34:05 Koen_: Well, yes, I guess analbabez.com is a university of good reputation, sure. 21:34:19 The reason we have used the Nostalgia skin is because we don't *want* the new features of MediaWiki! 21:34:20 hey if cuntuniversity.com isn't a legit school 21:34:25 then I don't know what to believe 21:34:26 ~duck pen island problem 21:34:26 --- No relevant information 21:34:27 it's just a weird transcription for Babylone 21:35:44 Even so, MySkin is also being removed! 21:37:28 kmc: um, so, like, once I ssh in, how do I play? 21:40:26 boily: that "where is the river now? / still pretty far away, it's actually retreated a little this week" comment makes me think they're gonna be flooded 21:41:16 I am not the only one to complain about this. Many people do. 21:42:06 zzo38: having your skin removed is generally a good source of vocal complains. 21:42:34 Koen_: I just skim updates about once a day. still have no clue where it's going. 21:47:07 boily: well nethackwiki moved away from wikia because they tried to force a skin on us we didn't like 21:48:10 ais523: nethack is serious matters, and wikia tends to be generally evil. 21:48:20 they didn't used to be, but they've got increasingly evil recently 21:55:06 back when wikia search existed, it was the least evil search engine 21:55:15 and was also very valuable due to having different results than other engines 21:55:38 I told them I might maintain it since nobody else does, but they don't want that. 21:58:36 btw, mechanical translator annoyance: you enter a word into the translator, get the same word back, and eventually discover that the word exists in both languages with the same meaning but you'd never heard of it 22:00:03 Solution: Use languages with different alphabets. 22:00:23 Fiora: try to exploit the binary /levels/level01, which is setuid to user level02 22:00:47 kmc: it'd be hilarious if someone found an exploit for the OS and skipped past every level that way 22:00:59 Fiora: there's a useful README in your homedir too 22:01:19 ais523: yeah 22:01:23 it's pretty locked down, but not impossible 22:01:29 "bash: /bin/ls: cannot allocate memory" what O_O 22:01:40 yeah, sometimes the server is hosed :/ 22:01:57 if you run into persistant problems, join the IRC server and yell at them 22:02:04 oh geez,and trying to reconnect gets "shell request failed on channe 0" <_> 22:02:11 bla or whoever's running the game these days will go kill a bunch of bruteforcer programs ;P 22:02:25 yeah, having a publicly accessible shell account is often a bad idea ;) 22:02:29 what exactly do you mean by exploit? like, it looks to be programs asking for passwords 22:02:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: お休み！). 22:02:40 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:02:46 yeah for level01 you just need to figure out the right password 22:02:55 oh. so um, just objdump it and look at the asm? 22:03:03 yep :) 22:03:07 ... oh 22:03:35 in later levels you'll often need to convince the app to run arbitrary code by overflowing a buffer or something 22:03:41 ahhh okay 22:03:58 but there are other levels where the binary is a verifier for some completely unrelated challenge 22:04:05 like 'construct a string with property X' 22:04:09 i won't spoil it with more details ;) 22:04:15 there's also some reverse engineering 22:04:34 a few remote exploits, a few challenges to build exploits against old versions of real programs 22:06:09 good stuff 22:06:31 okay yay level 1 done 22:07:04 I think you can also use strings to find the password. 22:07:27 I don't think so with level 1; it moved each byte into memory manually 22:07:32 it didn't store it in .data 22:07:38 Oh. 22:07:42 Maybe I'm thinking of a different game. 22:11:58 okay so I won level 2, and it gave me a shell, what do I do with this shell? like I'm guessing there's supposed to be a password I have rights to now but I don't know >_< 22:12:55 cat /home/level3/.pass 22:13:00 then log back in as level3@whatever 22:13:02 ohhhhh 22:13:05 I see 22:13:41 spoilers kmc 22:13:49 this is the real challenge 22:14:18 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 22:17:27 -!- Canaimero-04c1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:18:19 -!- nooodl__ has joined. 22:21:48 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:22:30 -!- kwikrick has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:22:48 \ldots 22:31:49 geez, how am I supposed to input non-printable characters in a bash prompt? 22:33:35 ah! xxd can go backwards 22:34:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:36:21 wow I just don't know bash 22:36:50 * Fiora gives up 22:39:07 no you must persevere 22:39:08 "echo: no such file or directory" aghaksjdfskjdls 22:39:10 do this whatever it is 22:39:53 * Fiora actually gives up, I don't actually know enough linux to do it... 22:43:37 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5482649 22:43:45 i use base64 for that 22:43:49 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:43:51 um, but. how 22:45:00 Fiora: ctrl-v 22:45:02 echo G1szMW1oZWxsbyBGaW9yYRtbMG0K | base64 -d 22:45:07 or your terminal might let you 22:45:11 or i would do like, base64 -d > foo; *paste into terminal*, ^D 22:47:25 but how do I input it to the program 22:47:49 redirection? 22:47:57 /levels/level3 $(base64 -d < $(echo blahblahblahblah))??? 22:48:17 /levels/level3 $(echo blahblah | base64 -d) 22:48:21 actually probably 22:48:22 oh 22:48:24 /levels/level3 "$(echo blahblah | base64 -d)" 22:48:36 it doesn't take its input on stdin? how dastardly 22:48:56 a lot of mine were like /levels/level3 "$(perl -e 'print "x" x 1023'; cat shellcode)" 22:49:12 ? 22:49:19 where 'shellcode' was a file I already transferred using base64 -d > shellcode 22:49:25 i think you can SCP things too 22:49:49 also, I would typically make a directory for myself under /tmp for each level 22:49:54 and stage things there 22:50:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 22:51:25 'base64: invalid input" 22:53:06 gahhhh 22:53:17 um, it won't let me write to tmp 22:53:44 I,I /levels/level3 $'a[\xab\xcd\x08...' 22:53:53 you can't ls /tmp but you can make a directory there and then cd to it 22:53:53 @_@? 22:53:54 Maybe you meant: ? @ 22:53:56 at least I just did 22:54:01 yeah, Bash has this syntax shachaf mentions 22:54:02 $'' is the best thing 22:54:06 i think I didn't know about it when I was doing IO 22:54:08 I don't understand 22:54:38 mkdir /tmp/foo 22:54:43 /tmp/fooöra 22:54:44 what does I,I mean 22:54:51 `run echo $'\x68\x65\x6c\x6c\x6f\x20\x77\x6f\x72\x6c\x64' 22:54:52 i have no idea what I,I means 22:54:53 hello world 22:55:00 I an completely lost 22:55:01 *am 22:55:01 i,i means "i have no point, I just like saying" 22:55:13 it's not a UNIX command, it's a weird chat idiom of MIT and CMU people 22:55:18 and shachaf 22:55:19 Ask It's an owl face. 22:55:22 and kmc 22:55:24 who is from everywhere 22:55:24 yes I can echo it but I want to run it as a command argument and that doesn't work!! 22:55:32 everywhere and nowhere 22:55:44 level3@io:~$ xxd - < "$(echo AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 22:55:47 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHSEBAg= | ba 22:55:50 se64 -d)" 22:55:53 -bash: t▒: No such file or directory 22:56:01 oerjan: Fiora is infringing on your trademark hth 22:56:20 Fiora: oh, you can't have null bytes in command line arguments 22:56:27 also it's way too hot today 22:56:32 oh 22:56:35 also i saw 8 google street view cars what were they doing 22:56:54 * shachaf vanishes for a bit 22:56:59 that command actually would redirect xxd input from a file with a long name which is mostly nulls 22:58:16 agh. it's just completely ignoring my input. it's like the program isn't evn getting it 22:59:36 what's your command line now? 22:59:54 level3@io:~$ /levels/level03 "$(echo AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQ 22:59:57 EBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQF0hAQI | base64 -d)" 23:00:03 it's too long, it should at the very least just do -something- 23:00:13 but the program just totally ignores the input... 23:01:10 is there an actual line break after that Q? 23:01:14 um, no 23:01:22 but my terminal isn't wide enough... 23:01:32 ok 23:01:42 Fiora: that looks right to me 23:01:59 I mean, like. it should at the very last crash it 23:02:00 *least 23:02:03 maybe try gdb --args /levels/level03 "$(echo ... blah blah)" 23:02:49 bleh. gdb doesn't work because it quickly scrolls off the bottom of my terminal 23:03:02 and I need to use 'clear' to fix it and that doesn't work in gdb 23:03:41 what scrolls off? 23:03:43 hey Bike do you like kripke structures <-- i like kripke structures 23:03:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 23:03:54 um, the stuff, on the screen? I don't know how else to explain it @_@ 23:04:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:04:08 you know, it hits the bottom, and then everything just all collides on the last line 23:04:16 and the screen won't scroll 23:04:18 oh 23:04:25 why doesn't it scroll :/ 23:04:31 Fiora: try running "reset" while gdb is shut 23:04:52 and seeing if it works then 23:05:06 no... 23:05:22 oh dear 23:05:37 wait is this not the same as kripke semantics 23:05:41 try a different local terminal program I guess? 23:05:50 this is hardly like kripe semantics at all 23:05:51 um, what do you mean 23:05:57 you mean like,a different ssh client? 23:06:08 yeah 23:06:16 ... so um, instead of ssh...? 23:06:27 well are you running ssh inside xterm or gnome-terminal or what? 23:06:28 *that 23:06:36 um, inside of bash, I think 23:06:44 i'm confused but definitely things should scroll rather than mashing together on the same line 23:07:04 Fiora: What's your terminal emulator? 23:07:20 how do I even know 23:07:29 Uh... well are you doing this on Windows? 23:07:51 um, yes? 23:08:08 probably windows's terminal thing then, whatever that is 23:08:14 PuTTY is the only good SSH client I know of for Windows 23:08:26 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:08:30 but it works just fine on everything else... 23:09:08 i don't know what specifically would cause the problem you're seeing, but I recommend PuTTY as the default Windows terminal window is really bad 23:09:11 oh, Windows terminal is broken 23:09:18 um, okay... 23:09:19 in fact I used to use PuTTY to log into a Cygwin sshd on localhost 23:09:25 for this reason 23:09:27 uh. wow. 23:09:32 although I think there's a clean way of doing that now 23:09:54 Does windows' terminal do ECMA-48 yet? 23:09:55 this one https://code.google.com/p/mintty/ 23:10:22 (or powershell or something) 23:10:55 * shachaf unvanishes for a bit. 23:11:36 Fiora: the terminal emulator is the program that runs an old-fashioned texty terminal inside your shiny modern graphical desktoppy thing. examples are xterm and gnome-terminal on linux and whatever windows does when you pop open a console window. 23:11:53 oh, but I was using cygwin 23:11:56 `addquote Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. oh god fiora help somebody help anybody 23:11:59 1006) Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. oh god fiora help somebody help anybody 23:12:10 oerjan: which one do you like kripke structures or kripke semantics 23:12:31 it sounds like Cygwin now ships Mintty, but I've also seen it used with the default Windows "running a DOS command" terminal emulator, which is shit 23:12:48 * Bike has no idea what cygwin does. go bike 23:12:57 shachaf: semantics 23:13:09 @quote kripke 23:13:09 monochrom says: There are truths, damn truths, and Kripke structures. 23:13:35 anyway I still recommend PuTTY, which is a standalone SSH client for Windows that is a GUI app as far as Windows is concerned, and has no interaction with the brokenness of terminals and terminal emulators on Windows 23:14:01 "This article describes Kripke structures as used in model checking. For a more general description, see Kripke semantics." spooky 23:14:02 Wait, Fiora is using Windows with an SSH client that isn't PuTTY? 23:14:05 okay I'm using putty now... 23:14:08 2spooky i might say 23:14:54 back in a bit 23:15:15 Fiora: How do you normally SSH? 23:15:51 um, I start up a cygwin window and use ssh 23:15:55 putty is nice but it doesn't support my private keys 23:16:03 so I kind of end up having to use regular ssh 23:16:34 Oh. 23:16:40 PuTTY can import the private keys. 23:17:31 how @_@ 23:17:56 -!- ssue_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:18:10 PuTTY key manager thingy? 23:18:14 ??? 23:18:16 I don't remember. 23:18:17 "PuTTYgen" or some-such. 23:18:19 @google putty import ssh private keys 23:18:21 http://www.electrictoolbox.com/putty-rsa-dsa-keys/ 23:18:21 Title: Use RSA and DSA key files with PuTTY and puttygen 23:18:37 And then you put it in Connection/SSH/Auth/Private key file for authentication. 23:18:40 puttygen.exe, it looks like 23:18:58 Then you can load it into memory ssh-agent-style. Or something. I don't know. 23:19:37 It has a ssh-agent style thing (pageant.exe) too, but you can just put the keyfile in the config as above. 23:19:43 (Then it'll ask for the passphrase.) 23:19:47 That's the one. 23:19:59 Bike: do you think you're ready to learn about the Codensity monad......... 23:20:32 Personally, I just generate a new key with PuTTYgen for the Windows box, copy-paste the OpenSSH-compatible public key string that PuTTYgen has in a textbox into authorized_keys, and go with that. 23:20:35 -!- ssue_ has joined. 23:20:37 coyoneda 23:20:43 CoYoneda is easy. 23:20:52 Do you know how it works or should I explain it? 23:20:57 i have no idea 23:20:58 (But it's certainly possible to import OpenSSH-y private keys too.) 23:21:07 Or maybe neither? 23:21:20 okay that thing seems to work with the regular openssh keys? but not x.509 keys 23:21:41 CoYoneda is related to Functor. 23:21:42 You have X.509 certificates for SSH authentication? What are you, some kind of a madperson? 23:21:46 You like functors, right? 23:21:47 um, it's what they use at work 23:21:50 functors are cool. 23:22:24 Bike: So you remember the functor laws? 23:22:33 but I guess that works for normal ones, thanks... 23:22:34 fmap f (fmap g x) = fmap (f . g) x 23:22:43 fmap id x = x 23:22:44 yeah, and fmap id = id. 23:22:45 * Fiora sorry, a bit frantic at the moment 23:23:03 Bike: OK, so let's say you have some tree or something where the fmap operation is really expensive. 23:23:13 So you want to minimize the number of fmaps 23:23:26 k 23:23:37 So instead of fmap (+1) . fmap (*2) . fmap (^3), you'll want to say fmap (\x -> x^3 * 2 + 1) 23:23:51 Makes sense? 23:23:54 `slist 23:23:58 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 23:24:20 Yeah, sure. 23:24:23 Now let's say you want to pass this to some other function, and you don't know how many fmaps it'll be doing. 23:25:02 It makes sense to split it up into two pieces: Instead of just passing around (Tree Int), you can pass around (Tree Int, Int -> Char) 23:25:08 Where Char can be anything. 23:25:19 ... gah, it won't even let me write data in tmp 23:25:25 Then you can just compose more functions onto the (Int -> Char) part, and leave the (Tree Int) alone until the very end, when you can apply one big function. 23:25:40 makes sense. 23:26:04 So you can make a type like this: data TreeWrapper a = TreeWrapper (Tree Int) (Int -> a) 23:26:21 The interesting thing is that TreeWrapper is a Functor without ever using Tree's fmap. 23:26:24 Fiora: If the authentication is using the usual SSH public-key mechanisms (like it seems), you should be able to just http://trueg.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/use-an-x-509-certificate-for-ssh-login/ a X.509 cert it into an OpenSSH-compatible private key (slight modifications are needed, that guide makes a public key for authorized_keys) and then from there onwards import to puttygen. If you want to. 23:26:29 (Can you write the instance?) 23:26:34 Without /ever/? Not even at the end? 23:26:41 At the end, sure. 23:26:46 But not for instance Functor TreeWrapper 23:27:10 fizzie: I think that requires ssh being compiled with x509 support or something... I'm not sure >_< 23:27:53 let's see, i guess fmap f (TreeMapper t g) = TreeMapper t (g . f) or so 23:28:02 Fiora: Come to think of it, aren't the OpenSSH private keys already in PEM format? I would think you could just extract the private key with openssl from whatever you have (PKCS12?). 23:28:15 I-I don't really want to mess with that now... 23:28:41 Fiora: If it's some special kind of authentication mechanism, maybe it's special. Who knows. (You have a weird thing.) 23:28:56 i'm thinking it's (f.g) instead of (g.f), wait, does that make sense 23:29:03 and then you have runMapper (TreeMapper t f) = fmap f t 23:29:17 Bike: (f . g), not (g . f) 23:29:17 how did we end up on X.509 keys o_O 23:29:18 But yes. 23:29:24 Bah. 23:29:26 ok it does 23:29:35 oh not for io.sts 23:29:48 I always get confused about what order composition works in, for some reason. 23:29:54 Bike: OK, next step: data AnythingWrapper f a = AnythingWrapper (f Int) (Int -> a) 23:30:01 sure. 23:30:05 Same instance. 23:30:20 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6187 -- huh. The more you know. 23:30:25 Bike: Last step: data Foo f a = forall x. Foo (f x) (x -> a) 23:30:26 It should be h(x) such that h(x) = f(g(x)) anyway 23:30:44 Bike: This uses an extension called ExistentialQuantification to hide which type the Int actually is. 23:30:57 Wait, why do you need to do that. 23:31:00 ghc -XExistentialDespair 23:31:09 Since you don't care that it's Int. You just care that it's *some* type x, and that you have a function :: (x -> a) 23:31:19 Yeah but like... why is there an extension. 23:31:32 Because that forall in data declarations isn't allowed in standard Haskell. 23:31:40 also 23:31:44 or rather "oh" 23:31:54 but also, what's existential about it? ...oh, wait, huh. 23:32:10 it's sort of an abuse of syntax to use 'forall' for existential types 23:32:15 but there's a sense in which it makes sense 23:32:15 that's pretty confusing for a universal quantifier though :/ 23:32:21 yeah i think i see it but still 23:32:24 Bike: It's existential because the type exists. 23:32:26 hth 23:32:29 thx 23:32:38 I can explain the relationship between forall and exists sometime if you like. 23:32:46 OK, so now you can write liftFoo :: f a -> Foo f a 23:32:51 And lowerFoo :: Functor f => Foo f a -> f a 23:32:52 blhhhhhrgh. i should read things about category theory but where do i start 23:33:00 a lobotomy 23:33:02 w----wikibooks?!! 23:33:15 nooodl__: what are you going for her 23:33:16 ee 23:33:18 here 23:33:18 nooodl__: start here https://twitter.com/copumpkin/status/302960443067101185 hth 23:33:22 shachaf: liftFoo doesn't require a functor? 23:33:29 Bike: Try it out! 23:33:31 if you say «data Foo = forall a. Bar (a -> Int)» then «Bar :: forall a. (a -> Int) -> Foo» 23:33:48 so it does produce a forall in the constructor type 23:33:55 quantifying on a variable that does not appear in the result type 23:34:05 So it... sends the client's X.509 cert (and intermediates etc.) to the server, which verifies that against a root, and accepts the public key based on that. Okay, yes; I don't think PuTTY supports that at all. 23:34:08 kmc: You know how turning an existential constraint into a universal constraint is just currying? 23:34:11 (A dependent type.) 23:34:11 yeah 23:34:16 That's the best thing. 23:34:24 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:34:26 monqy: what do you mean 23:34:57 Bike: So write liftFoo and lowerFoo 23:35:10 Bike: As you probably guessed, Foo is CoYoneda. 23:35:35 i didn't guess that. 23:35:40 Well, now you know. 23:36:22 Another perspective: data Foo f a = forall x. Foo (x -> a) (f x) 23:36:34 fmap :: forall x a. (x -> a) -> f x -> f a 23:36:45 So Foo just contains the two arguments to fmap. 23:37:03 This is why lowerFoo needs the Functor constraint -- it just applies fmap. 23:37:18 I guess I'm spoiling the exercise a bit. 23:37:29 oh. but it wouldn't be very useful if you started with something you couldn't fmap later though. 23:37:45 Well, usually not. But sometimes. 23:37:57 You can treat (CoYoneda IORef) as a read-only IORef, sort of. 23:38:10 Dude I don't even know what an IORef is. 23:38:13 -!- Lymia has joined. 23:38:13 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 23:38:14 -!- Lymia has joined. 23:38:15 Never mind, then. 23:38:23 Bike: However: When f is a Functor, CoYoneda f is isomorphic to f 23:38:40 This is called the Yoneda lemma -- or is a special case of it. Or something. 23:38:43 I don't know. 23:38:49 maybe monqy wants to take over here 23:38:50 what's yellow &c. 23:39:12 I'm just sitting here thinking it's great you're explaining this to me and all but I have written like twenty lines of haskell max, and I have a headache because a guy brought in five hundred pounds of unpackaged food and told us he was "sworn to secrecy" about where he got it, and, and, math is so hard ;_; 23:39:29 i'll summon monqy 23:39:35 HEY I THINK JAVASCRIPT IS A PRETTY OK LANGUAGE 23:39:45 Do you know how much food that is? Have you ever seen two hundred pounds of cheese in one place before 23:39:57 Bike: why are you friends with a professional food thief 23:40:04 better question: why am I not friends with a professional food thief 23:40:08 Bike: well this is what the poor perl person felt like when you were talking about functors 23:40:20 poorperlperson.tumblr.com 23:40:20 Bike: "maybe u'll think about ur actions next time" 23:40:28 He probably has seen two hundred pounds of cheese in one place before though. 23:40:36 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:40:54 Bike: btw Yoneda is like CoYoneda except backwards 23:41:00 i think if you go to a cheese shop you can see two hundred pounds of cheese p. easily 23:41:01 hth 23:41:06 yes yes we have to prepend Co- to everything to make it backwards 23:41:17 I think CoYoneda is more intuitive than Yoneda 23:41:19 Haskell the Hultimate 23:41:22 what does kmc think 23:41:39 imo instead of prefixing Co- people should write stuff backwards 23:41:44 shachaf: btw did you see KeithW et al's computer networking blog http://www.layer9.org/ "It's like a LAMBDA THE ULTIMATE but for NETWORKING RESEARCH" 23:41:47 i think probably i should actually learn group theory, and then i should figure out what yoneda has to do with that other Group Theory Thing 23:41:53 nooodl__: gb2shellprogramming 23:42:07 if ... then... coif 23:42:21 @remember ghc -XExistentialDespair 23:42:22 Nice! 23:42:23 and stuff that is its own dual should have palindrome names? 23:42:25 Bike: coif is a good word 23:42:31 exercise: define coelse 23:42:54 oerjan.............................. 23:43:00 @forget ghc -XExistentialDespair 23:43:00 Done. 23:43:04 Bike: Python has while..else, is that like coelse? 'imo no' 23:43:05 @remember kmc ghc -XExistentialDespair 23:43:05 It is stored. 23:43:17 oerjan: I went through dozens of these in the lambdabot quote database yesterday. 23:43:17 also for..else 23:44:10 yeah i remember forgetting how that works because i'm bad at python 23:44:26 imo it's because Python is bad at Bike 23:44:26 im bad at everything 23:44:30 it might be one of those features that is obscure enough that any code using it automatically qualifies as obfuscated 23:44:36 i think i used it.... once, maybe 23:44:36 Python is good at cheese shops though 23:44:36 shachaf: python is cobad at bike? 23:45:01 python is kobold 23:45:42 what's yellow &c. <-- a bananach space hth 23:46:08 nom 23:46:13 mpact cospace 23:46:30 shoulda just done like physics and thrown "anti-" everywhere 23:46:39 shachaf: I tried to convince geofft to port GPG to GRUB and/or UEFI 23:46:47 i think with Secure Boot, this is actually a useful and valuable thing 23:46:48 then you'd have to make jokes about nomies instead of about mpositions. 23:46:59 i hear "dual" isn't really the same as "opposite" though? 23:47:07 what is duality help 23:47:12 he keeps adding things to GRUB that look suspiciously like a userspace 23:47:24 i think if you go to a cheese shop you can see two hundred pounds of cheese p. easily <-- i have seen reliable evidence that cheese shops have no cheese hth 23:47:24 nooodl__: fun fact some 2-categories (or was it bicategories) have both duals and opposites 23:47:27 As far as I've heard "dual" basically means "it's useful to call it dual" 23:47:33 i think in another 10 years they will reveal that GRUB is secretly The GNU Kernel 23:47:38 so you have C C^op C^co C^coop 23:47:41 hi im back 23:47:46 shachaf: head = explod 23:47:49 Bike: duality is when you reverse the arrows 23:48:02 "coop" is cute 23:48:04 Bike: alt. the dual of a thing is that thing in the opposite category (i.e. you reverse the arrows) 23:48:10 oerjan.............................. <-- i remembered that the next second :( 23:48:19 uhhuh sure 23:48:22 anyway i started reading http://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~fokkinga/mmf92b.pdf yesterday but is it good??? imo it's not gentle at all 23:48:27 oerjan: The worst part is that evidence remains forever. 23:48:29 @quote 23:48:29 Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list 23:48:35 @quote somethingthatdoesntexist 23:48:35 No quotes match. My brain just exploded 23:49:16 kmc: still better than HURD yuk yuk 23:50:35 Maybe I'm thinking of something else entirely. 23:50:45 nooodl__: hey want a "ddariuscommendation" 23:50:52 shoulda just done like physics and thrown "anti-" everywhere <-- well there is anticommutative hth 23:50:55 in 1.13 it starts talking about "expressing concepts categorically" and it gives literally no examples, it just goes, here make these exercises, i cried & stopped reading 23:51:01 sure 23:51:05 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:51:11 23:36 shachaf: Awodey's book and/or Barr and Wells' ESSLLI lecture notes to start. 23:51:36 want some edwardkommendations 23:51:51 sure 23:52:31 -!- nooga has joined. 23:52:44 Oh, I know. 23:52:52 _Category Theory as Coherently Constructive Lattice Theory_ 23:54:05 ctcclt 23:54:56 oerjan: The worst part is that evidence remains forever. <-- i thought i saw something about some people cleaning up lambdabot. 23:55:22 oerjan: Yes, I cleaned up all the lambdabot quote database and gave it to Cale. 23:55:30 Now it's not going to be cleaned up again. 23:55:34 -!- heroux has joined. 23:55:46 there were literally no quotes before you did your thing........ 23:55:59 oerjan's a trendsetter 23:56:10 shachaf: i mean, actual code. 23:56:18 oh that 23:56:20 go for it 23:56:58 * oerjan hides behind his laptop that nearly explodes when updating lens 23:57:19 oerjan: What do you think: Yoneda or CoYoneda? 23:57:37 imoNeda 23:58:03 imhoTep 23:58:16 i think that's about the point where i drop out of category theory hth 23:58:22 the category of tepid swamps 23:58:32 oerjan: no not in category theory in haskell 23:58:45 ain't a clue to have 23:58:56 oerjan: newtype Yoneda f a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall b. (a -> b) -> f b } 23:59:13 oerjan: data CoYoneda f a = forall x. CoYoneda (f x) (x -> a) 23:59:38 when f is a functor it's isomorphic to Yoneda f and to CoYoneda f 23:59:45 so which one should i prefer