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01:10:42 <doesthiswork> I think it would be fun to program in a pattern matching language completely without the concept of sequences
01:11:11 <oerjan> define "concept of sequences"
01:11:45 <doesthiswork> I mean you couldn't ensure that one thing happened before another
01:11:50 <Bike> data List a = [] | Cons a (List a) or whatever
01:11:52 <Bike> oh, sequencing.
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01:12:14 <Bike> you are referring to haskell's pattern matching being left to right?
01:13:14 <Bike> I think if you don't use ~ patterns and treat variable patterns as matching everything except the other options you've already got that...
01:15:26 <doesthiswork> I don't know haskell but I was thinking of the kind of pattern matching that string rewriteing languages do
01:15:51 <Bike> Oh. Have you seen Thue.
01:15:54 <monqy> see now that makes more sense
01:16:19 <Bike> It doesn't have sequencing.
01:17:34 <Bike> "This segment type is reserved but has unspecified semantics." the heck
01:18:11 <doesthiswork> I thought you could force sequenceing because the definitions themselves don't get rewritten
01:18:48 <doesthiswork> so if rule b can't fire until rule a has modified the string
01:18:51 <Bike> You can force sequencing in getting a pattern to match only something produced by an "earlier" pattern.
01:19:02 <Bike> insofar as that constitutes sequencing.
01:19:31 <monqy> so you're saying you want nondeterministic string rewriting where all the rule's can fire all the time
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01:25:39 <monqy> what sort of reversibility are we talking here
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01:26:55 <shachaf> @topic-snoc #esoteric help
01:26:55 <lambdabot> Topic does not parse. Should be of the form ["...",...,"..."]
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01:39:34 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:47:07 -!- kmc has set topic: am i wry? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:49:10 * oerjan wonders if "imo no" means something in japanese
01:50:01 <nooodl> http://jisho.org/words?jap=imo&eng=&dict=edict&common=on hth
01:50:35 <nooodl> oh i guess there's "imono", "cast metal", too, huh
01:51:23 <pikhq_> Ah, much like "niwa ni wa niwa".
01:51:32 <pikhq_> "There is a crocodile in the garden."
01:52:56 <nooodl> i'm 100% awful at japanese but, if you were to say something like "There aren't two crocodiles in the garden."
01:53:07 <nooodl> would it be "niwa ni wa niwa ni (counter) nai"
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01:53:24 <pikhq_> I think the counter is "hiki".
01:53:54 <pikhq_> Though a bit more natural would be "niwa ni wa nihiki no niwa ga nai"
01:54:27 <pikhq_> And at that point you might as well go for "niwa ni wa niwa no niwatoori ga nai"
01:54:56 <pikhq_> (there are not two chickens in the garden)
01:55:38 <oerjan> wait, which word is crocodile here
01:56:34 <Bike> "what is with this channel and potatoes"
01:56:42 <pikhq_> oerjan: It's Japanese having a giant chunk of homophones here.
01:56:59 <nooodl> you actually read it as "niwa ni, wani wa" (garden <in>, crocodile <topic>)
01:57:06 <pikhq_> nooodl: Riiight, yeah.
01:57:17 <pikhq_> nooodl: Thanks for the correction.
01:57:30 <pikhq_> oerjan: "wani" is crocodile, "niwa" is "garden" or "two birds".
01:57:31 <nooodl> oh i thought you were making things extra fun & confusing intentionally
01:57:47 <pikhq_> nooodl: No, I was just being bad.
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01:58:28 <pikhq_> And "ni wa" is a perfectly sensible series of particles.
01:58:59 <pikhq_> 庭には二羽 <- See, perfectly reasonable.
01:59:11 <nooodl> わ: "3: (Prefix) Japanese-style"
01:59:16 <nooodl> i'm sure nobody ever uses this but
01:59:26 <pikhq_> nooodl: It's used fairly often.
02:00:03 <nooodl> imo: japanese-style birds and alligators in japanese-style gardens
02:00:43 <pikhq_> The etymology of "wa" to refer to Japan is utterly unknown.
02:00:57 <pikhq_> Far as I know it's first attested with some Chinese dudes talking about the "people of Wa".
02:01:24 <Bike> oh, doesn't that date back to like, the jomon almost
02:01:29 <pikhq_> Yeah, "waniwa ni wa wawani to niwa no waniwatori"
02:01:38 <pikhq_> Bike: It's pre-writing-in-Japan.
02:02:28 <Bike> good ol' dead cities
02:02:35 <nooodl> i hope it's just, "those crazy guys with their weird language with the はs"
02:03:06 <nooodl> was /wa/ even a particle back in the day, though...
02:03:24 <pikhq_> nooodl: It's a particle in the other Japonic languages. I'm going with "yes".
02:04:06 <Bike> nooodl: given that it's chinese imperials it probably amounts to "these fucking hicks"
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04:03:14 <kmc> Bike: potatoes are the miracle food
04:03:22 <kmc> they are both starch and vegetable and they go with everything
04:03:27 <kmc> and can be cooked so many ways
04:03:38 <Bike> i forget why you're telling me this but yes
04:03:39 <kmc> you can pretty much live on potatoes and milk
04:09:52 <monqy> corn and beans and potatos and milk? now that's luxurey
04:10:06 <kmc> do you have to nixtamalize the corn
04:10:24 <Bike> monqy, of course, is an ascetic living solely on human flesh.
04:10:43 <kmc> the sheer variety of foods i eat in a single day is kind of staggering
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04:13:27 <kmc> today: lamb, eggplant, olive oil, onions, tomatoes, fava beans, garlic, pita bread, tortilla, pinto beans, chicken, avocado, rice, lettuce, hot capsicum, vinegar, etc.
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04:15:03 <doesthiswork> I don't have much money for fancy things like lamb
04:17:55 <kmc> yeah lamb is expensive I guess
04:18:01 <kmc> meat in general is
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04:49:55 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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05:14:13 <shachaf> kmc: Fava beans? You fool!
05:14:39 <shachaf> I was surprised when I found out Egyptian falafel is made of fava beans.
05:14:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i hear it goes nicely with monqy's diet
05:16:11 <shachaf> @as monqy i don't get it what's your diet ??????
05:16:46 <oerjan> you _could_ look up about a page in the channel.
05:17:32 <shachaf> i read that but didn't understand it so i thought you meant something else but now i get it its a reference to that movie which i didn't watch
05:17:45 <shachaf> @ask monqy NEVER MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:17:53 <oerjan> yes. i haven't watched it either btw.
05:18:00 <shachaf> fava beans nice chianti et c.
05:29:31 <fizzie> ais523: I seem to have been wrong re Humble Bundle ad emails not being a weekly occasion even when they have nothing else to say than the weekly sale.
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08:57:31 <fizzie> AndroIRC seems to disconnect when I leave this device unattended.
08:58:01 <Taneb> Yes, that is a problem with it
08:58:38 <fizzie> Is there a better alternative?
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09:00:06 <fizzie> I have the bouncer configured to replay some amount of backlog, but it still pops up spurious query windows and all.
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13:27:05 <kmc> fizzie: android apps don't run in the background indefinitely
13:27:21 <kmc> you could try whichivere flavor of connectbot has Mosh support
13:27:26 <kmc> and run your IRC client on a remote server
13:31:20 <boily> kmc: android activities get GCed, but you can start always running background services.
13:31:39 <boily> (and, if you're not careful, they can be *very* always running and very hard to kill.)
13:38:57 <fizzie> I don't think I've had the same disconnectation problem with ConnectBot.
13:39:53 <fizzie> Anyway, the point was to run something with a proper text input box, the swiping and such seems to work quite differently in ConnectBot.
13:42:00 <fizzie> Android IRC's description page in Play says "stays connected in background".
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13:44:01 <fizzie> I'd try the "only replay unseen" bouncer option, but that never replays anything, because of an always-connected irssi.
13:49:01 <fizzie> Perhaps I should try AndChat out, its changelog says "Tweaks to ensure service is killable when no servers connected" which sounds like it's doing a thing.
13:49:20 <fizzie> Or maybe it didn't support client-side SSL certificates.
13:54:09 <fizzie> (#firstworldproblems?)
13:56:30 <boily> (I feel like being of a corrective disposition today.)
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14:03:46 <ion> Please don’t use / as the quote character if you’re using /s in the regexp or the substitution part. :-P
14:06:03 <boily> toothpicks shall be leaned with impunity!
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14:53:55 <elliott> > 30000 / 9.81 :: Rational
14:53:59 <lambdabot> 3058.1039755351681957186544342507645259938838
14:58:47 <boily> haskell.org is down :(
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15:00:39 <Koen_> WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO
15:00:50 <Koen_> oh wait I'm not a haskell person
15:01:43 <Taneb> Koen_, be a Haskell person
15:01:53 <Koen_> I don't take orders from you!
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15:03:27 <boily> Koen_: be a Haskell person.
15:03:40 <Koen_> it doesn't work like that
15:04:00 <boily> ~echo Koen_: be a Haskell person.
15:04:14 <Koen_> well you could at least have hidden the command!
15:04:30 <Koen_> theoretically I coudl learn haskell
15:04:37 <Koen_> it's on my list of languages
15:04:47 <Koen_> but chinese and dutch are higher on that list and that's gonna take a while
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15:07:00 -!- boily has set topic: Koen_ be a Haskell person. | am i wry? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:07:08 -!- boily has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i wry? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:07:33 <boily> there, just the right amount of motivation to motivate you to be motivated at learning Haskell sooner.
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15:50:32 <Taneb> `seen ThatOtherPerson
15:50:39 <HackEgo> 2013-04-09 18:53:46: <ThatOtherPerson> I can confirm that Canada has cities; I have been to some.
15:53:44 <boily> he probably tried to check if those cities were still real.
15:53:57 <boily> that's why ThatOtherPerson has disappeared.
15:54:26 <AnotherTest> how do we know ThatOtherPerson hasn't become another person?
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15:55:21 <elliott> probably the canadian conspiracy assassinated him for revealing too much
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16:50:09 <kmc> '"Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead" is now in the UK midweek Top 10.'
16:55:02 <Taneb> Welcome to Britain
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18:20:13 <boily> has it dropped under 200$?
18:20:25 <kmc> http://bitcoinity.org/markets
18:20:30 <kmc> still dropping like a rock
18:20:58 <elliott> it needs to drop further, I still feel like I am missing out
18:20:59 <kmc> "Mtgox trading engine lag: 3707.25s"
18:21:37 <Bike> What's happening?
18:22:03 <boily> there's a mysterious green line split into green lines...
18:22:06 <kmc> one person is still buying at $200 occasionally, lolol
18:22:44 <monqy> so bitcoin is crashing, eh
18:23:07 <Bike> But uh... so these trades are from an hour ago?
18:23:27 <kmc> i think they were entered into the system 1 hour ago, but they're "happening" now
18:26:36 <monqy> Bitcoinity is currently completely behind. New machine is coming slowly. Sorry folks
18:27:33 <monqy> wow it's just dead
18:27:44 <monqy> too much activity???
18:27:48 <Bike> noooo my rubbernecking :(
18:28:34 <elliott> can I buy a time machine with bitcoins so I can go back and invest a lot of money in it
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18:29:29 <AnotherTest> elliott: ask ais523, he seems to know a lot about that kind of stuff
18:30:19 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: well, seems like they are crashing. Unfortunately bitcoinity is down so we can't all watch it.
18:30:24 <kmc> down to $156 from $260+
18:30:32 <kmc> https://mtgox.com/ has the last trade price at the top
18:32:27 <elliott> so that guy who bought a pizza for 10,000 bitcoins in 2010
18:32:36 <kmc> AnotherTest: a few weirdos keep buying at $200 and $190
18:32:44 <elliott> could have turned it into $2.6M this morning
18:32:46 <kmc> but i wouldn't say "the price" is back up to that
18:33:09 <kmc> there are lots of ways to define "the price" but you might take a volume-weighted average over some time window
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18:35:16 <kmc> omg that spread
18:35:22 <kmc> best bid $156 best ask $195
18:36:34 <AnotherTest> https://boards.4chan.org/g/res/32947392#p32949294
18:37:11 <kmc> is what true
18:37:42 <Bike> "OH NO THE MONEY IS WORTH THE SAME AS WHAT IT WAS YESTERDAY"
18:37:59 <Bike> you mean about NYSE?
18:38:34 <kmc> can you paste so i dan't have to read 4chan at work
18:38:43 <kmc> or figure out what the hell even message you're referring to
18:39:01 <Bike> people in mtgox IRC calling for them to completely halt the market for a day
18:39:06 <Bike> >MagicalTux: shut it down. NYSE shuts down with there's a single day dip that's half as big as what we've seen, and in their case *they* didn't help to *cause* it
18:39:38 <olsner> are you using 4chan for financial advice?
18:40:03 <kmc> yes, NYSE has circuit breakers
18:40:13 <kmc> i think all the US equity markets have them
18:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i hear the spread is due to mtgox being massively lagged so everyone's trying to guess where the markets will be an hour hence
18:42:06 <Bike> That sounds like a neat problem, actually.
18:42:09 <kmc> yeah I think there's a panic sell that is wiping out the bid side of the book
18:42:17 <kmc> while nobody bothers tending to limit sell orders
18:43:16 <Bike> https://images.4chan.org/g/src/1365616607844.gif Good thread
18:43:41 <kmc> btw NYSE may be where many stocks are listed, and they have a nice looking building, but as a trading center they only have a small fraction of US equities
18:44:21 <kmc> all the actual trading happens in data centers in New Jersey and those mostly aren't run by NYSE (although they eventually got around to buying the operator of one of the main ones)
18:44:26 <boily> (hmm... that stuff is still online: http://www.cgarbs.de/tentakel.en.html)
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18:59:11 <monqy> Mtgox trading engine lag: 4356.00s
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19:07:29 <GOMADWarrior> how about a lang that plays out like a rpg battle
19:08:03 <kmc> GOMADWarrior: you should actually make one of these things, and show it to us
19:08:34 <Bike> what's a "hitpiece"
19:08:41 <olsner> what's normal lag for a stock exchange?
19:08:42 <Bike> and who's "david gerard"
19:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a hitpiece because the guy who wrote it was spectacularly annoying when i knew him
19:09:21 <boily> ~duck david gérard
19:09:25 <boily> ~duck david gerard
19:09:25 <metasepia> By 1484 he had established himself in Bruges, where he remained until his death.
19:09:34 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: dang, PH, you're old!
19:09:36 <Bike> olsner: I would guess somewhere from milliseconds to seconds, but i dunno
19:10:56 <GOMADWarrior> how about a language that only has one loop statement, the infinite loop, and you have to use break to get it
19:11:52 <kmc> not interesting
19:12:03 <kmc> it's very easy to compile a for loop or normal while loop to that
19:12:12 <kmc> programming in this language would not be very different
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19:49:20 <mroman_> that's how some compiler compile it anyway.
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20:25:49 <oerjan> 13:54:09: <fizzie> (#firstworldproblems?)
20:25:49 <oerjan> 13:55:58: <boily> s/#/\/r\//
20:25:54 <oerjan> boily: the channel exists.
20:26:03 <oerjan> only 2 members though.
20:26:49 <oerjan> <ion> Please don’t use / as the quote character if you’re using /s in the regexp or the substitution part. :-P
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20:28:31 <oerjan> (admittedly i used substitutions from (|) (iirc) in my bct interpreter)
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20:30:59 <oerjan> <kmc> '"Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead" is now in the UK midweek Top 10.' <-- XD
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20:31:36 <oerjan> i _did_ notice a photograph somewhere with "The Bitch is Dead" and wondered why they didn't go all the way.
20:31:38 <boily> /close and /quit are not the same.
20:32:56 <boily> oh, yeah. I did chickenise my quit message indeed.
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20:33:10 <oerjan> boily: um you've had that for ages
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20:33:24 <boily> oerjan: I know. I tend to forget about the surrounding chickens.
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20:34:01 <oerjan> (that book title is how i know what poulet means)
20:34:24 <boily> stop butchering the noble French plural, you plebeian!
20:34:27 <oerjan> olsner: aux goes with plural.
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20:35:20 <boily> people here always take English words and conjugate them in French.
20:35:41 <boily> «t'irais tu me fetcher ça s'te plaît?»
20:36:09 <oerjan> boily: that particular case is a quote from very intentionally butchered french, assuming i got it right.
20:36:35 <Taneb> je voudrais une baguette, s'il vous plait
20:37:38 <boily> oerjan: I'm currently actively abstaining from annoying the glorious citizens of this fine channel by quoting other replies from that movie.
20:37:53 <olsner> je suis une petite pamplemousse avec du yeux bleu
20:38:08 <olsner> one of only a handful pieces of french I know
20:38:24 <boily> «Je suis un petit pamplemousse avec des yeux bleus.»
20:38:33 <oerjan> i don't see how that could _possibly_ be annoying hth
20:38:57 <olsner> boily: meh, the s'es are silent anyway
20:39:14 <olsner> and I never knew how to spell it
20:39:42 <boily> sometimes the plural is with s, sometimes with x, sometimes completely arbitrary.
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20:41:59 <boily> (discovery of the day: poulet aux prunes is from the same woman that wrote persepolis.)
20:42:33 <oerjan> i know. even though i only got a handful pages into them.
20:43:11 <oerjan> possibly because they were actually in french.
20:43:39 <oerjan> (in the library. it later got a norwegian version but i didn't bother.)
20:44:01 <olsner> you didn't realize it was actually french until several pages into them?
20:44:33 <oerjan> yes i did, but my french wasn't good enough for my patience to hold. nor was the book subject interesting enough for me.
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20:48:16 <olsner> french is not a language I'm trying to learn
20:49:11 <oerjan> *graphic novel, i suppose
20:51:58 <oerjan> tswett: this bitcoin crash i see about in the logs is probably due to your new esolang, hth
20:52:32 <boily> you need to know the basics in French: «bonjour», «au revoir», «merci», and «mon aéroglisseur est plein d'anguilles».
20:52:33 <oerjan> it gave the speculators too much power
20:52:35 <Taneb> I was trying to think of the French phrase for "comic book" a few weeks ago!
20:53:02 <oerjan> bande dessinée is comic iirc
20:53:17 <Taneb> I had arte instead of bande
20:53:59 <Taneb> My pretty much non-existent knowledge of French playing up
20:54:16 <boily> ah. no worries, then.
20:56:20 <tswett> Mt. Gox says the last trade price is $189; what kind of crash is that?
20:56:21 <oerjan> boily: you forgot something about ears and bananas imo
20:56:46 <tswett> Oh, it was up to, like, $240.
20:57:32 <boily> oerjan: quoi? je t'entends pas, j'ai une banane dans l'oreille.
20:57:37 <Taneb> Wow, Bitcoins are deflated
20:57:55 <oerjan> boily: and something about eating glass
20:58:28 <Fiora> Taneb: there was a big DDOS attack I heard
20:58:42 <Fiora> the price is back up to $190 but like, all the trades are executing with huge delays and stuff
20:58:53 <boily> oerjan: I'll have to check that one up. can't remember what's the "official" québécois translation. I think it goes like this: «j'mange d'la vitre pis ça me fait pas mal».
20:59:06 <Fiora> (the weighted average price is still really high so I'm guessing very few trades executed at the lower prices?)
20:59:07 <tswett> I'm tempted to write some sort of automatic trading program and seed it with, like, ten bucks. See how quickly I can turn it into a hundred thousand.
20:59:29 <tromp_> shouldn't take more than a week...
20:59:44 <Fiora> I'm guessing HFT is a little tricky at least on mtgox, since they charge a 0.6% fee per transaction
20:59:47 <Taneb> It was $13 a few weeks ago
21:00:37 <olsner> another piece of french I may know wrong: les poisson cru est salée
21:01:04 <olsner> that was in the "things that french people will find funny about sweden" chapter of the french books
21:01:09 <boily> «Le poisson cru est salé.»
21:01:24 <Fiora> the ddos strategies are kind of evil though, it's like, ddos the exchanging, cause panic selling, buy at lower prices, stop ddos, sell -_-
21:01:53 <olsner> Fiora: the hours of lag might be a bigger obstacle to HFT?
21:02:19 <Fiora> well yes trying to do HFT during a DDOS is probably a horrid idea too XD
21:02:27 <kmc> i think the "DDoS" is that a bunch of people tried to sell their bitcoins all at once
21:02:33 <kmc> and MtGox is shitty so this caused them to fall over
21:02:41 <tromp_> $13 was a few months ago
21:02:53 <Taneb> tromp_, I've lost all track of time
21:02:54 <boily> oerjan: found the canonical glass form: «J'peux bouffer d'la vitre, ça m'fa pas mal.»
21:03:09 <kmc> tswett: just because the last trade was at $189 doesn't mean that "the price has recovered" to there
21:03:26 <Fiora> the weighted average is probably the best thing to look at
21:03:26 <kmc> throughought the crash there were people occasionally buying for $40+ more than the rest of the trades
21:03:29 <kmc> the spreads got crazy huge
21:03:36 <kmc> volume-weighted average price is legit
21:03:41 <Bike> so what's that down to
21:03:43 <kmc> Fiora: really? over what time window?
21:03:51 <Fiora> I think it's one day
21:04:01 <kmc> let's see what it is tomorrow :)
21:04:01 <Fiora> But like, I watched it during the crash, it didn't go down much
21:04:06 <kmc> that's not true
21:04:07 <Fiora> I'm guessing very few trades were executing during it
21:04:12 <kmc> https://data.mtgox.com/api/0/png/24hours.png?Currency=USD
21:04:13 <Fiora> um, I meant the weighted average didn't
21:04:40 <kmc> well there was half a day of normal trading before the crash
21:05:01 <Bike> tomorrow <-- how am i supposed to wait that long for my schadenfreude!
21:05:18 <Fiora> I dunno, I'm kinda wondering how anyone could sell when the exchange was lagging that much XD
21:05:30 <Fiora> and the market depth indicator is still down... -_-
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21:07:06 <boily> that thing is vile: http://foodbeast.com/content/2013/04/08/po-boy-ramen-sandwich-for-when-youre-desperate-and-out-of-bread/#.UWSVqJNwqjQ
21:07:20 <Fiora> hmm. I wonder if you could actually judge the volume of the low-price trades by watching the rate of change of the weighted average
21:07:36 <Fiora> since I'm guessing it gets periodically recalculated?
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21:11:33 <Bike> "As one of the oldest and most established Bitcoin businesses in operation today, Mt.Gox K.K. has developed a reputation based on reliability and stability, allowing users to trade with confidence."
21:11:34 <boily> according to my phone, I have ~0,0504 CAD in bitcoins.
21:11:56 <Bike> And they're registered in Japan for some reason.
21:12:47 <Bike> https://www.tibanne.com/ Did you know that Tibanne is a company incorporated in Tokyo (Japan) in 2009?
21:13:23 <Fiora> I think they're like the one bitcoin exchange/tool that was hacked and actually covered all the losses, so maybe comparatively they are reliable and stable? XD
21:13:46 <kmc> Bike: https://mtgox.com/img/quote.gif
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21:13:52 <boily> Bike: is there anything else to know about Tibanne?
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21:14:14 <Bike> kmc: yeah i noticed that in that bitcoin stalker paper fiora linked
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21:15:36 <Fiora> "if trades now are $1 less than 24 hours ago, and the volume is the same, the average will change by 1/24 dollars per hour" <-- this is correct right
21:16:56 <Fiora> and I guess if you count volume, then it'd be 1/24 * (volume now / volume then)
21:22:22 <oerjan> Fiora: only if the average volume is the same for the entire time between as well
21:23:02 <Fiora> true.... *super rough estimations*
21:24:02 <oerjan> and that's for your first line, i'm too lazy to check your second one
21:25:30 <Fiora> kmc: okay my wildly crazy guesstimate math says the average sale price during the crash was around 175-180
21:25:37 <Fiora> where the crash is the past 4 hours ish I guess
21:26:26 <Fiora> and the official numbers say volume was 75k in the past 4 hours, and 150k in the past 24! so 75000 bitcoins were sold at around 175-180 average. wildly guessing <.<
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21:29:21 <Fiora> but if you want schadenfreude maybe find the people investing in bitcoin hedge funds? XD
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21:34:11 <Fiora> oh um, unrelatedly kmc bike was talking about your breakpoint/interrupt stuff
21:34:34 <kmc> what about it
21:35:01 <Fiora> he was um, I think he was looking at SBCL's allocator and the way it handled interrupts with this weird pseudo-atomic thing?
21:36:22 <Bike> oh, yeah, it uses a BREAK to run interrupts deferred during a pseudoatomic section, i guess
21:36:49 <olsner> hmm, I recognize this topic
21:37:30 <Fiora> it stores EBP in some FS-indexed thread local data structure, then if an interrupt hits it sets some flag there, and then it xors it at the end of the allocation, and checks to see if it's zero?
21:37:36 <Fiora> and if not it signals a trap
21:40:03 <Fiora> like I am kind of half-guessing at what it does
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22:07:07 <Fiora> kmc: okay it's schadenfreude time, bitcoin is now down to 138 and falling XD
22:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> for shits and giggles i checked the bitcoin subreddit, it's... amusing
22:10:05 <monqy> whats the shits to giggles ratio here
22:10:24 <Fiora> yeah, but like, the exchange was being ddossed before
22:10:24 <elliott> so i guess it is "recovering"
22:10:26 <Fiora> but now it seems to be working
22:10:32 <Fiora> it went bac up to about $200 as the ddos ended
22:10:36 <Fiora> and then... crashed again
22:10:38 <elliott> i mean... 138 is still a lot
22:11:01 <elliott> however i find its output completely unreadable
22:11:11 <Fiora> oooh. that's a cool chart thing
22:11:42 <elliott> bitcoins sort of remind me of eve online
22:11:54 <Fiora> I don't think even ISK was that volatile
22:12:13 <elliott> microcosms of incredibly deep RL-mimicking politics that spill out into the world at large
22:12:31 <elliott> and probably better to watch from a distance than get involved in
22:12:43 <Bike> also everyone's a twenty-something dude?
22:12:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought getting involved in eve was one of your inevitable life goals
22:13:09 <elliott> Bike: does this mean we can extend it to startups
22:13:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's more like having nightmares about falling into a life of drugs and sin and fearing they may one day come true
22:14:14 <Fiora> there's definitely that weird feeling when the internet spills out into reality like that
22:14:21 <Fiora> like. reading news articles about -bitcoin hedge funds-
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22:15:57 <kmc> or the other way, like when one of the most prominent EVE players was killed by terrorists in Benghazi
22:16:01 <kmc> (also a SA mod)
22:16:09 <Bike> that was so weird
22:16:21 <elliott> i wonder how viable it is to speculate ISK...
22:16:32 <Bike> also had the concrete effect for me that a lot of dumbassed EVE players decided to talk about glassing Libya in SA's middle east thread
22:16:51 <Fiora> it's probably hard because the only decent way I remember to convert dollars<->ISK is with PLEX?
22:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> because it's illegal to trade ISK for real money and CCP will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you do
22:17:04 <Fiora> which isn't really... like. I don't think you can buy dollars with PLEX
22:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are you saying illegal things are always not viable
22:17:07 <Fiora> at least not legally
22:17:17 <Bike> You could speculate for more ISK, couldn't you?
22:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> because otherwise they're subject to icelanding banking regulations
22:17:35 <Fiora> and it being against the ToS would increase a pretty hefty cost to trades back to dollars, I'd imagine
22:17:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes but the idea is that you are a sufficiently good criminal and get away with it
22:17:45 <Fiora> so it'd be a lot harder to profit because of that premium
22:18:41 <Bike> guess you have to be good enough about speculation to beat that!
22:19:36 <elliott> does eve have like, stocks
22:20:41 <Bike> oh fuck it could be a practical application of that paper about arbitrage when you have FTL
22:21:30 <Fiora> elliott: yeah, but no regulation :p
22:21:38 <Fiora> investment scaaaaaams~
22:21:41 <kmc> i think it's so cool that relativity is an important factor in real world stock trading on earth
22:21:52 <Bike> we need to get krugman playing EVE, people. this could happen
22:22:02 <kmc> both literal speed of light relativity but also the more general idea of "you can't say what the price is, independent of your reference frame"
22:22:07 <elliott> kmc: they like, build computers closer to the NYSE right
22:22:23 <kmc> elliott: yeah, you pay $$$$$$$ to have your computer hosted in the same datacenter as the exchange's
22:22:38 <Fiora> oh gosh, I guess that is true, since there's no absolute reference frame
22:22:38 <kmc> in fact big banks will buy up those spots just so their competitors can't have them
22:22:42 <Bike> well, marginal theory of value, right?
22:22:50 <Fiora> are HFT people actually doing relativity calculations?
22:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, uh, why can't you just use earth as a reference frame
22:22:56 <Bike> things don't have objective value
22:23:11 <kmc> Fiora: not calculations per se, that i know of, but you definitely care about the time it takes light to travel on this or that path
22:23:13 <elliott> Fiora: well, they're surely going to at least measure their ping
22:23:14 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: "the earth is down, therefore gold is $400"
22:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean there aren't exactly any stock exchanges in geostationary orbit
22:23:31 <kmc> light travels about 1/3 slower in optical fiber, so some people use microwave links instead
22:23:40 <Fiora> I remember reading a thing where they were proposing using neutrinos sent through the earth to gain a latency edge
22:23:45 <kmc> Fiora: >_<
22:24:10 <elliott> HFT sounds like a lot of fun to work on
22:24:10 <Fiora> http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2012/04/30/neutrinos-to-give-high-frequency-traders-the-millisecond-edge/
22:24:14 <Bike> we need a blockbuster movie about having to nuke the core of the earth to restart it after it's been flooded by neutrinos from greedy captain planet villains
22:24:18 <kmc> elliott: yep
22:24:23 <Fiora> yeah, I've heard horrid things about working in that industry ;-;
22:24:26 <kmc> elliott: also the code is shit qualityp
22:24:35 <Fiora> where people go in, work insane hours, and burn themselves out in two years for the hope of huge payouts
22:24:36 <Bike> elliott: isn't quant like the worst job and also best paying job for math people.
22:24:54 <elliott> kmc: i know there are a few HFT firms that use Haskell, i wonder if their code is any better than the average
22:24:58 <kmc> most industries have deadline pressure but in HFT there's no deadline per se, it's just every day you don't trade you are leaving money on the ground
22:25:17 <Bike> elliott: unsafeCoerce for speed
22:25:18 <kmc> so everyone just copy-pastes the last similar thing, hacks it up real quick, and starts trading ASAP
22:25:26 <elliott> Bike: well we do that in lens too
22:25:33 <elliott> wait, I think edwardk works as a quant.
22:25:40 <Bike> IT'S ALL COMING TOGETHER
22:25:43 <kmc> doesn't edwardk build analysis software
22:26:14 <kmc> butt algorithms
22:26:33 <Bike> the high frequency porn trading circuit
22:27:59 <elliott> A Reddit user posted a graphic showing the Spartans' shields from the movie 300 redesigned as Bitcoins with the word HOLD! across the top.
22:28:54 <Fiora> quality journalism!
22:29:24 <elliott> Bitcoin Fanboy Makes Awesome Graphic Telling Others To Stay Strong In The Face Of Collapse
22:29:30 <elliott> Bitcoins are crashing today.
22:29:31 <elliott> They're down from over $260 earlier to under $190.
22:29:31 <elliott> This graphic was posted to Reddit by user blood4thegood to encourage fellow Bitcoiners to hold strong and not sell into this panic.
22:29:33 <elliott> this is actually an article
22:29:42 <Bike> on... Business Insider?
22:29:46 <elliott> also they got the username wrong
22:29:54 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/as-bitcoin-prices-collapse-fans-are-telling-each-other-to-stay-strong-and-hold-2013-4 behold
22:31:01 <Bike> http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/516571b3ecad04492200001b-918-689/Bitcoin-billionaire.png these are some good articles
22:31:37 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> because it's illegal to trade ISK for real money and CCP will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you do <-- something tells me you were _not_ speaking about icelandic krona anyhow
22:32:09 <elliott> oerjan: icelandic fake krona
22:32:34 <elliott> Bike: where... where is the billionaire
22:33:45 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:33:51 <Bike_> There are snippets of information: he or she claims that they were an "early adopter," and had forgotten they even had any Bitcoins. "I am bitcoin," he or she wrote in a moment of megalomania.
22:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> prices do seem to be rising from the second trough, admittedly
22:34:58 <Bike_> choice business insider quotes
22:35:40 <Fiora> a massive bitcoin crash occurs! it must be because of this random redditor who gave away 50 coins
22:36:03 <Bike_> elliott: http://www.businessinsider.com/who-is-bitcoinbillionaire-2013-4
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22:36:07 <coppro> elliott: how did you deregister yourself accidentally?
22:37:22 <kmc> oh humans, what won't you attribute to some mysterious agent in order to insulate yourself from the blind terror of the world
22:37:48 <Bike> no that's actually about a guy who gave away a few tens of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins
22:38:09 <Bike> and then ended with a ron paul quote
22:38:39 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcointip/comments/1c1hp2/a_4680_tip_really/c9c7sfq?context=3
22:39:29 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-billionaire-tips-being-passed-on-2013-4
22:39:33 <elliott> bitcoin billionaire: the follow-up story
22:39:36 <elliott> brought to you by business insider
22:42:32 <monqy> well how else are they supposed to be hip
22:42:36 <monqy> youth culture of today &c &c
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23:03:01 <coppro> speaking of which, your votes make me sad :(
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23:06:51 <Bike_> Anybody know any good papers/whatever on closures being partial applications?
23:06:53 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:07:15 <shachaf> Closures being partial applications?
23:07:32 <coppro> elliott: no, I just don't like seeing blanket against votes
23:07:37 <Bike> yes. that is what i said.
23:07:43 <shachaf> Yes, but what did you mean?
23:07:45 <elliott> well I don't like seeing thousand-proposal distributions
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23:08:16 <Bike> shachaf: If you lift all the free variables in a lambda abstraction into being parameters, a closure is then that lambda+a few partially applied arguments.
23:08:52 <Bike> "let x = 55 in \x y -> x + y" "(\x y -> x + y) 55", i guess?
23:09:29 <shachaf> OK, and then you implement partial application via what mechanism?
23:10:25 <Bike> shachaf: does it matter?
23:12:28 <shachaf> Well, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
23:12:53 <Bike> neither am I, that's why I'd like to read something about it.
23:12:56 <shachaf> If you want papers to read maybe you should read this one, though.
23:12:58 <lambdabot> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.53.3729
23:13:54 <Bike> wow that's as old as me
23:14:20 <shachaf> wow Bike how does it feel to be old
23:15:47 <elliott> Bike: that paper is older than me
23:15:59 <shachaf> conclusion: Bike doesn't exist
23:16:12 <Bike> I think we all knew that, John.
23:17:56 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/2-million-bitcoin-pizza-2013-4
23:18:09 <Bike> meanwhile, in bitcoin news
23:18:29 <elliott> This episode is a big lesson and a big cautionary tale: Anyone transacting in Bitcoin is liable to feel like an idiot the next day, as the price surges or collapses.
23:18:32 <elliott> Hence it makes more sense to just speculate, and not do anything real.
23:18:35 <elliott> business insider trying to bring down bitcoin
23:18:44 <Bike> ron paul insider
23:18:49 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-panic-looks-like-2013-4
23:18:50 <elliott> Others are saying to put things into "perspective," meaning that Bitcoin is still up a lot in recent days/weeks (that's classic).
23:18:58 <shachaf> Bike: also remember THIS game::::: http://www.abandonia.com/files/games/631/Fable_1.jpg
23:19:06 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-250-2013-4
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23:19:19 <Bike> shachaf: nope.
23:19:34 <Bike> but seriously is this a real magazine because i thought it was but... what
23:19:37 <shachaf> elliott: itym \rainbow{JOURNALISM} hth
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23:20:21 <shachaf> Bike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAJiCERMxfI
23:20:25 <Bike> "The Overly-Attached Girlfriend Explains What It's Like Being A Wildly Popular Internet Meme
23:20:29 <Bike> come on. come on
23:20:32 <shachaf> Bike: I'd've expected you to know it.
23:20:49 <Bike> i'm not really "a games person"
23:21:15 <Bike> haha is this real dialogue
23:21:33 <elliott> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Insider apparently it's just a website but I think it's meant to be, like, reputable
23:21:41 <Bike> that's what i thought!
23:21:46 <Bike> but they're being very UNreputable
23:21:54 <Bike> dereputable one might say
23:22:11 <Bike> "Deputy editor Nicholas Carlson previously worked at Internet.com and Gawker Media's Silicon Valley gossip blog, Valleywag.com."
23:22:45 <Bike> "It [valleywag] was the first to break some stories, such as the leaking of a Gene Simmons sex tape."
23:24:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: more than one comment
23:24:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's just the only Insider™ comment
23:24:40 <Bike> "In its first post, Valleywag outed the fact that Google founder Larry Page and high-ranking employee Marissa Mayer had dated for months." jesus christ
23:25:31 <Bike> "In journalism school, you would never even think about sharing any gossip of this nature without at least two reliable sources, but that never stopped Owen, nor did it stop other bloggers from picking up the incendiary story and shining a very negative light on the Web server hosting company in question."
23:25:34 <Bike> In spring 2008, Valleywag ran a series of articles on Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales, alleging that he traded favorable edits for sexual favors and donations to the Wikimedia Foundation.
23:25:51 <Bike> the tech news world may just be the saddest shit ever
23:26:09 <Bike> elliott: what, you've never heard of them?
23:26:53 <Bike> they have like... io9 and kotaku and stuff.
23:27:03 <Bike> well yeah it's a web 4.0 name
23:27:16 <Bike> are you commenting that gawker is shitty
23:27:27 <elliott> something along those lines yes, meanwhile
23:27:28 <elliott> And here's what the latter folks understand that the those who are huffing about "Bitcoin bubbles" don't:
23:27:31 <elliott> The most you can lose if Bitcoins go to zero is 100% of your money.
23:27:34 <elliott> The most you can make, meanwhile ...
23:27:36 <elliott> Well, no one knows exactly how much you can make.
23:27:49 <Bike> ok glad we had this talk. i look forward to move bitcoin investment tips.
23:28:10 <Bike> more? move? who knows
23:28:30 <Sgeo> Are there any bubbles where it's possible to lose more than has been invested?
23:28:57 <Bike> One of your disgruntled employees could murder you.
23:29:14 <shachaf> gotta keep them employees gruntled
23:29:28 <Bike> Or you could collapse the bubble so hard the economy collapses, and you're reduced to Mad Max style guerilla startup investment.
23:30:06 <pikhq_> elliott: Anywhere from $1 to $1 google?
23:31:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, the sad thing is i suspect a large number of bitcoiny types think they would be happy with this
23:32:50 <pikhq_> Ah, right, it used capitalization.
23:33:02 <kmc> Sgeo: well if you accept the explanation that the housing (+ mortgage derivatives) bubble caused a global financial meltdown
23:33:09 <kmc> i don't know how true that is really
23:33:15 <kmc> it's basically what Bike said, with the Mad Max
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23:34:04 <Bike> thunderdome, etc
23:34:05 <kmc> elliott: ""You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretsky" -- Michael Scott
23:34:37 <Sgeo> I knew 'mad max' had to mean something, after someone was doing an LP that had the phrase "And now mad MAAX" and the LPer commented on that
23:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> more sterling work from s. geo, detective, gentleman and lover
23:36:13 <btiffin> Is the room discussing investing? I have a feeling that with the Cayman Island hidden wealth data leak, there will be a run on gold soon. And jewels, and great huge pirate treasure hoards accumulating soon as the duck and cover proceeds.
23:38:50 <kmc> "I'm sorry, I can't disclose anything about that customer's secret, illegal account."
23:39:36 <Fiora> Sgeo: you can lose more than you've invested if you leverage yourself!
23:40:06 <tswett> Sgeo: re bubbles where you can lose more than has been invested: yes, that's what a short squeeze is.
23:40:06 <Fiora> (which is doubly dangerous in bubbles, since the market can remain irrational longer than you can stay solvent, as I think the adage goes)
23:40:58 <Sgeo> tswett, incidentally, do you think I severely spoiled HS for Aftr.?
23:41:12 <Fiora> it's a really dangerous bit about any kind of short investing, even if you know with total certainty that the price will eventually fall you can still end up bankrupt
23:41:25 <tswett> Sgeo: that seems almost impossible.
23:41:34 <tswett> But I haven't actually caught up, so I don't actually know.
23:41:39 <Sgeo> Or well, in a way that... oh
23:41:48 <Sgeo> *in a way that would bother Aftran
23:44:02 <kmc> Fiora: p. good adage
23:44:28 <kmc> Fiora: it depends on how exactly you're shorting, though
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23:44:43 <kmc> typically you go through a brokerage which imposes certain margin requirements, and will close out your position if you get too far in the red
23:45:23 <Sgeo> If you're shorting, aren't you betting that the price will fall? So you'd only lose money if the price kept going up?
23:45:26 <kmc> so that caps your losses (not sure if that holds up in court, though, if they fail to close it out)
23:45:59 <kmc> Sgeo: specifically, you've borrowed the asset in order to sell it, so you owe someone the return of that asset
23:46:12 <kmc> if the price goes up, the cost to you of buying back that asset to make good on your debt can be arbitrarily high
23:46:15 <Fiora> kmc: well it's just like, either your short position has a margin call problem or it's time-limited (like an option)
23:46:36 <kmc> it's different if you're, like, a registered broker-dealer doing shorts on the exchange directly
23:46:42 <Fiora> naked shorting? :P
23:46:47 <kmc> in that case you might even be allowed to do naked shorts
23:46:50 <doesthiswork> I just saw a blog post about auto defined functions, and all the comments are trying to sell him car parts
23:46:51 <kmc> because they know they can come after you
23:46:56 <Fiora> I guess long term capital management is a great example of it though, they had an investment that was basically guaranteed to eventually rise in value
23:47:12 <Fiora> but they still got run out of the market because they couldn't survive the short-term pain
23:47:29 <kmc> that was the asian govt bonds thing?
23:47:43 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.amazon.com/When-Genius-Failed-Long-Term-Management/dp/0375758259 you should read this thing, it's really really good
23:47:49 <Fiora> our econ teacher assigned it
23:47:55 <kmc> yeah I think when I went to work in finance, they gave me a copy of that book and then I failed to read it
23:47:59 <elliott> naked shorting is where you go around naked except for shorts
23:48:00 <kmc> they also gave us Liar's Poker which I did read
23:48:12 <kmc> elliott: yes, it's sort of the complement of shirtcocking
23:48:14 <Fiora> LTCM was a hedge fund in the late 90s making ~20-30% each year by betting that interest rate spreads between countries would converge
23:48:25 <Fiora> using insanely leveraged, arcane option bets
23:48:29 <Fiora> but then the 1998 panic hit
23:48:36 <Fiora> and they started losing a billion dollars a day
23:48:41 <Fiora> and they couldn't get out of their trades
23:49:01 <Fiora> (it was worse because the money had started to dry up, so they had started making riskier bets to keep the same returns, and they were -incredibly- overconfident)
23:49:26 <Fiora> the best part though, was when they had to go to banks to ask for money to try to get out of their mess
23:49:37 <Fiora> the banks looked at their books, their eyes went wide open in terror, and immediately ran for their lives
23:49:42 <Fiora> ... and proceeded to bet against LTCM
23:50:10 <kmc> blood in the water
23:50:37 <Fiora> in the end the banks did have to bail them out because if they had actually gone bankrupt the unravelling of derivatives would have lost the banks billions
23:50:43 <Fiora> but. the bailout resulted in them owning the hedge fund
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23:51:22 <kmc> bailouts are funny
23:51:30 <Fiora> I think in the end they actually made a profit on those derivatives
23:51:39 <Fiora> it's just that, they couldn't survive the short-term drop
23:51:56 <kmc> like how the workers finally seized the means of production in the US auto industry, if by workers you mean pension fund of retired workers
23:52:00 <Fiora> oh right, I think in the end they had 1 trillion dollars of derivatives on 1 billion in assets
23:52:06 <kmc> and by production you mean the ability to make crap cars that nobody wants
23:52:18 <kmc> the paper value of derivatives can be insane
23:52:27 <Bike> oh burn, quite possibly!
23:52:46 <kmc> people talked about the CDO market being like hundreds of trillions nominally
23:54:45 <Fiora> yeah, I remember my econ professor talking about examples like 1 million dollar exchange rate derivative contracts
23:54:57 <Fiora> but like the actual practical effect of the derivative was way tinier