00:01:25 -!- Bike has joined. 00:03:33 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:03:52 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:03:53 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 00:07:10 -!- Bike_ has joined. 00:10:27 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:11:35 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:12:09 -!- Bike has joined. 00:18:03 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:36:16 `frink 100 yards -> m 00:36:26 2286/25 (exactly 91.44) 00:39:07 -!- Bike_ has joined. 00:40:10 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Nitya. 00:40:46 -!- yours_truly has joined. 00:41:48 -!- yours_truly has quit (Client Quit). 00:42:23 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:43:05 -!- Nitya has changed nick to Bike. 00:49:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 01:18:04 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:18:57 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:20:26 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:25:10 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain#When_is_Easter.3F The computus in cbrain 01:26:13 It uses readline? 01:26:14 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 01:27:42 Yep, but it can fall back to COBOL accept if the call to readline fails 01:29:10 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:29:14 Part of the cbrain game is that it's built for COBOL, and I wanted a relatively sane RE loop 01:30:26 for brainfuck? 01:31:40 :-) Went overboard on the CB slang too Bike, put 1094 in a cell and request help and you get a frogSort. 01:31:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:34:33 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:36:27 -!- Bike has joined. 01:38:25 -!- btiffin has left. 01:40:51 Hard terminals? Those are ones that aren't monoids? 01:40:57 Are VT-100s monoids? 01:43:52 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:43:57 sequences of ECMA-48 commands should form a monoid, yes 01:44:11 or rather a whole bunch of them 01:44:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperspace_(science_fiction)#Babylon_5 01:44:26 wikipedia... 01:44:32 http:// 01:44:35 Phantom_Hoover.......... 01:45:01 -!- btiffin has joined. 01:45:12 ignore the #Babylon_5 01:45:18 the marvel here is the article as a whole 01:45:24 most obviously the free monoid on characters, but also various monoids with stronger equivalence relations that understand that e.g. two moves in a row can be coalesced 01:45:36 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:45:53 is there a term for a monoid that's built from a free monoid + a normalization operator that you apply to words after concatenating them? 01:46:19 Can't you build any monoid that way? 01:46:28 probably 01:46:42 monoid presentation? 01:47:01 there might not be a canonical normal form that is computable 01:47:30 if the word problem isn't decidable 01:47:44 *its word problem 01:48:50 if you don't care about computability, you can of course just choose the shortest representation in lexicographic order 01:49:32 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:49:56 *first in 01:50:41 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:50:55 Bikeunderscore 01:51:12 Just not as catchy as the original. 01:51:15 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bicyclidine. 01:51:23 mnoqy: are free groups "cooler than" free monoids 01:51:30 this question goes for the rest of you 01:51:38 depends on what you mean by cooler 01:51:44 i was quoting you 01:52:02 so it depends on what YOU MEAN BY "cooler"?? 01:52:09 ??????????????????????????????????? 01:52:13 ???????????????????????? 01:52:14 help 01:52:19 free monoids come up more in day to day life 01:52:29 p. sure that makes them "less cool" 01:52:29 I ate surloin steak 01:52:32 and are easier to construct 01:52:55 easier/less finicky 01:53:10 actually, hm 01:53:25 the ~usual~ construction of free groups is pretty finicky but i hear there's a nice way to do it with topology 01:53:46 what's the nice way 01:53:51 pff i forget 01:53:54 nb. i know almost nothing bout topology 01:54:29 -!- Bicyclid1ne has joined. 01:55:12 and of course ther'es the category-theoretical way where you use the whatever adjoint functor theorem to construct a left adjoint to the forgetful functor. i forget the process in there but Mac Lane ~claims~ it's nicer than the usual construction 01:55:34 mnoqy: wait there's a process ????? 01:55:40 what's the whatever adjoint functor theorem 01:55:47 like i remember 01:55:59 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:56:32 mnoqy: WELL REMEMBER 01:57:58 (The Freyd Adjoint Functor Theorem). Given a small-complete category A with small hom-sets, a functor G : A -> X has a left adjoint if and only if it preserves all small limits and satisfies the following Solution Set Condition: For each object x \in X there is a small set I and an I-indexed family of arrows f_i : x -> G a_i such that every arrow h : x -> G a can be written as a composite h = G t 01:58:04 \circ f_i for some index i and some t : a_i -> a 01:59:29 and then it goes on to construct the free group from the forgetful functor U : Grp -> Set 01:59:55 er 01:59:57 Set -> Grp 02:00:00 er 02:00:02 Grp -> Set 02:00:06 wow im bad today 02:00:29 my eyes darted between the forgetful functor and its adjoint 02:00:57 mnoqy: are you forgetful because of adjoint 02:01:07 i didn't know you were doing higher category theory 02:01:31 "This left adjoint F : Set -> Grp assigns to each set X the free group F X generated by X, so our theorem has produced this free group without entering into the usual (rather fussy) explicit construction of the elements of F X as equivalence classes of words in letters of X." 02:02:27 im on the monads&algebras chapter right now it's between that chapter and adjoints and the chapter on monoids 02:02:31 er 02:02:33 chapter/section 02:02:37 you know how in haskell you can say newtype FreeGroup a = FreeGroup { runFreeGroup :: Group g => (a -> g) -> g } 02:02:40 except it's bad 02:02:50 also i'm missing a forall 02:02:53 and it's a kind error??!? 02:03:13 i'll be right back and then i can figure out if i know that 02:03:44 anyway let me look at that theorem 02:07:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:15:24 For some reason Idris seems more understandable to me than Agda 02:15:43 ok i think i understand that definition of free groups in haskell 02:16:09 ( hi iim back) 02:16:14 oh 02:16:36 What would it be in idris? 02:16:40 ( hi PARKER William) 02:16:52 ???? 02:17:06 is that just a pseudonym 02:17:08 should i not use it 02:17:17 nah it's fine but 02:17:21 i dont get why you used it 02:17:35 the ???? was also to FreeFull as well 02:17:42 o h 02:18:23 what about this: newtype Free k a = Free { runFree :: forall r. k a => (a -> r) -> r } 02:19:03 by k a do you mean k r? 02:19:10 um 02:19:11 yes 02:19:25 ok 02:19:36 What's a group here? 02:19:40 :-) 02:19:44 GROUP HUG 02:19:46 @hug monqy 02:19:46 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug 02:19:50 @hug monqy 02:19:50 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug 02:19:57 Yes I have seen that kind of Free 02:20:12 mnoqy: what about this: Free (Algebra f) 02:20:28 is there a math thing called "group" other than the usual one because i swear i will punch everybody 02:20:43 Bicyclid1ne: there's a whole group of things called "group" 02:20:43 Bicyclid1ne: nah this is the same group 02:20:58 i know but freefull made me wonder 02:21:23 Bicyclid1ne: Are you going to throw a magma at someone? 02:22:37 shachaf: and that definition of "Free" looks right..well...about as right you can reasonably get with haskell 02:23:13 mnoqy: are you hinting "that type classes are bad" "and that independent types are bad for getting things right.." 02:23:23 mostly the latter maybe i don''t know.... 02:23:27 FreeFull: don't you mean groupoid? * runs away 02:23:46 mnoqy: so Free (Algebra f) gives you a free monad?? 02:24:01 (spot why this is relevant) 02:24:38 Yes, although I don't like using Algebra as a class, but yes it can work 02:25:02 CodensityAsk is similar but without class. 02:25:15 Both kinds can be meaningful though. 02:25:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:25:30 zzo38: Oh! 02:25:36 Now I understand what CodensityAsk is. 02:25:37 Groupoid takes two arguments and is a data constructor. g doesn't seem to take any arguments 02:25:52 And Group seems to be a typeclass 02:26:35 zzo38++ 02:26:38 shachaf: no i'm hinting at you're really working in 2 different categories and sometimes your morphisms are weird (group homomorphims??? it could happen).. i'm also hinting at there's the thing where for free objects you have a (natural)bijection of hom-sets not just an 1-way assignment 02:26:49 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:26:51 mnoqy: oh there's that too 02:27:03 FreeFull: you didn't get the reference sorry 02:27:04 because you get the (-> r) (-> r) pattern from the adjunction?? 02:27:25 oerjan: xoid is something x-like and that's all I get 02:27:29 well you understand how free objects work right? 02:27:35 (the point is that groupoid _is_ a math thing other than the usual groupoid) 02:27:54 agh 02:27:56 wait what's a free object in terms of free functors 02:28:11 So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid 02:28:18 Bicyclid1ne: it can mean either magma, or category with all morphisms invertible 02:28:29 shachaf: free object is any image of a free functor's object function 02:28:32 (groupoid) 02:28:37 `addquote So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid 02:28:41 1025) So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid 02:29:26 `run quote | head -n4; quote | tail -n1 02:29:28 439) beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ 870) it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will 02:29:32 oopse 02:29:38 `run quote '' 02:29:40 470) combinatronics seems to be the mathematics chasing buddha's tail yeah.. he was a smart monkey that buddha 02:29:53 mnoqy: ok 02:30:29 Now to show how a pikachu is a monoid 02:30:31 what the heck itidus 02:30:48 `quitidus21 02:30:49 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quitidus21: not found 02:30:58 shachaf: so the adjunction looks a bit like hom(F a, b) \cong hom(a, U b)... i.e. for any [group] b can extend any function from a to the underlying set of b to a ~unique~ morphism from the free group to b 02:30:59 oh no is that how they made itidus21 leave the channel 02:31:26 shachaf: if you're familiar with linear algebra, this is a lot like how linear transformations are defined by their action on the basis. this is because all vector spaces are free. 02:31:27 hm itidus is online right now 02:31:59 mnoqy: and with monoids that's like foldMap 02:32:08 buddha was known to outsmart monkeys 02:32:09 ? 02:32:20 linear algebra is basically foldMap 02:32:32 :t foldMap 02:32:34 (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m 02:32:38 you can turn a a function (a -> b) to the monoid homomorphism ([a] -> b) 02:32:50 yeah 02:32:52 -!- hagb4rd2 has quit (Quit: hagb4rd2). 02:33:04 which in haskell we just represent as a function anyway 02:33:59 so for that freegroup defn what you're doing is just representing the free group on a by this map from a->Uq functions to Fa->q morphismssms 02:34:24 right, same as the free monoid 02:34:26 and this generalizes to any category with free objects not just Grp 02:34:29 representing a list by its foldMap function 02:34:41 ye 02:34:42 which gets you FMList 02:34:58 (which by the way lets you express more than lists. but that's because haskell people are naughty) 02:35:20 zzo38: Maybe you should call CodensityAsk something with a "free" in its name. 02:35:33 well that's just because of that thing where haskell functions aren't monoid homomorphisms and you're not required to bijection 02:35:57 no i mean the whole "infinite folds thing" 02:36:01 (or do you mean that too?????) 02:36:13 > foldMap id [] 02:36:15 () 02:36:21 Huh 02:36:44 /dev/mempty 02:37:11 > foldMap id ([] :: [Int]) 02:37:12 FreeFull: default instances 02:37:13 No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Int) 02:37:13 arising from a use of... 02:37:40 I guess for [] it tries mempty 02:37:49 ? 02:37:52 > mempty 02:37:54 () 02:38:01 mnoqy: well it has to try something 02:38:20 shachaf: yes but i mean it's less about trying mempty and more about trying () as its default instance for Monoid 02:38:31 > foldMap id ([] :: [Sum Int]) 02:38:33 Sum {getSum = 0} 02:38:34 mnoqy: no it tries mempty 02:38:43 if that didn't work it would try mappend mempty mempty 02:38:44 "and so on" 02:38:52 don't you know how computers work 02:38:52 () is a good default for mempty 02:39:07 as FreeFull says () is a good default for mempty 02:39:20 class Monoid m where mempty :: m; mempty = (); mappend :: m -> m -> m 02:39:24 "good default" 02:39:25 () is in general a good default, except when it's not and monomorphism restriction is fucking with you 02:43:29 mnoqy: is your nick mnoqy 'because a message was sent to monqy' 02:43:44 is that your secret 02:44:11 () tells you nothing whatsoever other than "Yup. There's a () here. It's not a bottom." 02:44:25 that's a lot of telling. . . . 02:45:03 It's the minimum amount of telling without having just a bottom (Not to be confused with Just bottom) 02:45:35 > () <= undefined 02:45:36 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 02:45:40 I think that's debateable, I mean, what if you knew it was an Integer? That narrows it down but there's still infinite objects it could be. 02:45:49 > () /= undefined 02:45:51 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 02:46:00 :t (/=) 02:46:01 The Eq and Ord instances for () aren't lazy 02:46:01 Eq a => a -> a -> Bool 02:46:58 Bicyclid1ne: "Yup. There is an Integer here. It has this and that value. It's not a bottom" 02:47:12 The value bit is extra data 02:47:45 > take 4 . show $ [1..] 02:47:45 shachaf: not that i know of... 02:47:47 "[1,2" 02:47:56 > take 4 . show $ [1,2,3,undefined] 02:47:58 "[1,2" 02:48:02 Perfect 02:48:10 There should be a bottom bit, which is filled in by expressions that would be bottom. 02:48:30 because the evil bit joke just wasn't dorky enough 02:48:49 Jafet: Well, if you actually have the Integer, then you know it's not a bottom 02:48:58 And if you have a bottom, you don't know it's not a bottom 02:49:06 Bicyclid1ne: hey remember slashdot on "evil bit day" 02:49:13 I mean, you don't know it's a bottom 02:49:20 Except possibly in IO 02:49:25 shachaf: why the fuck would i remember slashdot anything 02:49:52 some bottoms are nicer than others 02:50:38 divergence has that fun property where something something halting problem good luck telling if it's a bottom or just taking a long time to evaluate 02:50:57 but why would you care 02:51:04 oh man i love that property 02:51:28 I mean, you can tell something is an error 02:51:32 Oh no. 02:51:35 But otherwise, good luck 02:51:36 ion! 02:51:39 fizzie! 02:51:44 Other Finnish people! 02:51:58 is there a finnish crissis 02:52:02 Ok, reserving one bit for bottom is a waste, since in any sensible program you shouldn't get bottoms. So for Integer it should be like variable length to make it less important than actual integers, like 111... 02:52:42 mnoqy: they switched to dst?? :'( 02:52:49 :( 02:52:58 now look at this 02:52:59 alt. serves em right. gosh ive been in dst for (weeks???) 02:53:03 Sat Apr 13 05:51:17 EEST 2013 Europe/Helsinki 02:53:03 Fri Apr 12 22:51:17 EDT 2013 America/New_York 02:53:08 eest 02:53:10 i like it 02:53:15 four letter time zone 02:53:16 Jafet: What about () and other equivalent types? 02:53:33 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 02:53:41 Those don't even exist at runtime AFAIK, at least not with GHC-compiled code 02:54:28 shachaf! 02:54:51 ion: plz rename your time zone to something with three characters 02:55:32 +03 03:00:43 EEST? O_O 03:00:59 eeeeest 03:01:03 -!- btiffin has left. 03:01:04 oh hi bike 03:01:19 hi fiora 03:01:20 -!- Bicyclid1ne has changed nick to Bike. 03:01:29 what is up 03:03:13 relaxing at home because it's a friday and yay 03:03:19 hooray. 03:03:28 FreeFull: () exists at runtime 03:03:31 Playing video games cause yaaay. 03:04:30 the value is represented by a pointer to a heap object, like any other value whose type has kind * 03:04:50 except that since there's only one value () in the world, that object is allocated statically 03:05:00 same for True and False and Nothing and other nullary type constructors 03:05:24 Surely optimization must elide it being represented in some cases. 03:05:56 FreeFull: there are types in GHC that have no runtime representation (such as State# t) but they don't have kind * and can't be used polymorphically 03:06:11 kmc: so that means that the compiler can do things like "if object == ()" by doing a pointer comparison? 03:06:32 yep, but don't know if it does 03:06:42 In practice it'll probably check a tag bit in that case. 03:06:53 right, yeah, it can't really do that 03:06:56 ? 03:07:00 because one side of the == might be an unevaluated thunk 03:07:02 amazing how tagged the STG seems to be 03:07:04 If I give you a () it could be an unev -- that. 03:07:08 it would have to perfrom some arbitrary computation first 03:07:18 Bike: it's tagged in a different sense from the original "tagless" 03:07:20 but yes 03:07:24 but, like, wouldn't the pointer comparison still fail? 03:07:34 Fiora: but it wouldn't succeed for real ()s. 03:07:38 oh. 03:07:46 so real ()s haven't be evaluated to static ()s 03:07:47 true, you could have a fast check and then a slow check if they aren't equal 03:07:52 Since haskell is nonstrict. 03:07:57 i'm not sure that (==) on () is strict, anyway... 03:08:02 kmc: But it's even faster to just check the tag bit. 03:08:04 > (undefined :: ()) == () 03:08:05 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 03:08:06 Wait, which == are we talking about here? 03:08:08 shachaf: yes, if the tag bit is there 03:08:14 the one in Eq i assumed? 03:08:23 Oh, wait. 03:08:28 I didn't even read the question properly. 03:08:34 ()'s Eq and Ord are strict 03:08:52 kmc: So you're talking about the case where you have a pointer to the static () object, but it's not tagged? 03:12:03 GHC optimizes "data Result = Yes | No; foo x | x == () = Yes | otherwise = No" to "foo = \x -> case x of _ { () -> Yes }" 03:14:14 How do you see what it optimizes to? 03:14:36 Lots and lots of wishful thinking. 03:14:44 (I use ghc-core.) 03:14:45 Ah, the usual. 03:14:47 shachaf: What's the _ there? 03:14:53 It's Core syntax. 03:15:49 Anyway that means that it checks the tags on its argument and then either "returns" Yes directy or evaluates the thunk and "then" "returns" Yes. 03:17:55 If not for those darn bottoms, it wouldn't make a difference =P 03:19:08 Then (== ()) = const True 03:22:13 why isn't it just "foo = const True"? 03:22:16 err 03:22:18 "const Yes" 03:22:30 Because (undefined == ()) isn't True 03:23:03 oh right 03:23:11 But it can't be false either, if it is not defined. 03:23:14 right 03:23:40 foo x = x `seq` Yes 03:23:46 halting problem more like "computers are stupid and i hate them problem" 03:23:53 coppro: Yep, that's what that foo code means. 03:23:56 case means seq. 03:24:32 Fun fact: You can't do case null in Java 03:24:42 Only way to catch that case is default 03:24:46 Is case null a sex position? 03:24:47 Fun fact: Java sucks 03:25:04 fun fact: why is Sgeo saying things 03:25:28 i don't understand the things he's saying : : 03:25:41 Because I'm starting to see the subtle good parts in Java and the subtle bad parts in Java, rather than just the obvious bad parts in Java 03:26:04 the obvious good things about java is that you can get some results 03:26:11 and pretty quickly 03:26:13 and that's about it 03:26:19 oh and it comes with a standard gui library 03:26:47 How about package naming convention? 03:27:39 As long as no alternate DNS root starts becoming very popular, Java package names will be unique 03:27:54 *Alternative 03:28:24 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:28:47 mnoqy: how much would you pay for a hi tld 03:28:49 monqy.hi 03:28:51 mnoqy.hi 03:28:55 the possibilities are endless 03:30:03 Whatever bitcoin's possibilties and failings, I think something along the lines of namecoin is possibly a good idea 03:30:07 you could get .hi.us already if hawaii likes you enough 03:30:31 shachaf: um 03:34:52 mnoqy: um 03:35:08 mnoqy: dol um ber ist 03:45:41 Are there any esolangs based on the immune system? 03:48:56 Bike: hmm. so like. you'd have some super simple esolang like a BF-like thing, except the purpose of the langage is to print characters in that lanugage ... and maybe like, the "execution" of your code is a systematic search for an input program that generates your code 03:49:00 and that input program is the output of your code? 03:49:17 (vaguely similar to the immune system "massive exhaustive search for a thing that binds to the pathogen" thing) 03:49:23 that sounds almost too direct 03:49:57 I found out a guy who got a Nobel for immunology work had some developmental brain theories so now i'm thinking about things. 03:50:20 Unfortunately the immune system is really fucking complicated and more importantly I don't understand it. 03:50:20 Bike: was it you 03:50:28 It was me. 03:51:29 The font the Nobel people use for their PDFs is terrible. Somebody should make the stop. 03:51:32 them* 03:52:22 "Though both sciences still face exasperating problems, this lecture attempts to establish an analogy between linguistics and immunology, between the descriptions of language and of the immune system." 03:52:30 uh oh 03:52:42 linguists more like evil people with no souls 03:52:43 who are bad 03:52:48 oh snap! 03:52:59 apparently the term "immune response" is actually taken from linguistics. 03:53:15 does that mean "it was in a language" 03:53:35 I'm guessing stimulus/response terminology. 03:53:51 Bike: ooh. I know 03:53:56 input: bf joust program 03:54:01 output: bf joust program that always beats it 03:54:04 XD 03:54:06 Haha. 03:54:19 That's probably uncomputable. 03:54:36 well, i know shit about bfjoust. 03:54:37 so are linguists 03:54:41 UNCOMPUTABLY AWFUL 03:54:52 Do you have something you'd like to share with the class? 03:55:31 THAT DES NOT COMPUTE -- Lost in Space robot, on linguists 03:56:44 "Let me draw attention to the fact that this number of lymphocytes in the immune system is at least one order of magnitude larger than the number of neurons in the nervous system." neuroscience more like pointlessology 03:58:56 I guess you could say it's so big 03:58:58 that it makes you nervous? 03:59:21 * Bike makes gesture of mediocrity 05:12:23 -!- btiffin has joined. 05:20:28 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 05:22:43 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:30:34 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 05:44:26 -!- FreeFull has joined. 05:48:20 elliott: have you idris 06:03:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:52:59 `? shachaf 06:53:02 shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. 06:53:04 `? funpuns 06:53:06 funpuns? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 07:18:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:22:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:22:35 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:27:38 Nrrrr, I've been mentioned during the night. 07:28:20 fizzie: Sorry! 07:28:21 Oh, right, EET -> EEST. 07:28:29 I was just complaining about your time zone. 07:28:35 Very irritating. Can you get it renamed? 07:28:41 Yes, that's very understandable. 07:29:03 I think you need to complain to the head guy of Eastern Europe. president@eastern.eu? 07:29:46 I thought they had a king. 07:30:27 Maybe they've got both. 07:30:59 What does the king of Finland think about that, hmm? 07:31:52 You might Cc: emperor@central.eu too, because CET changed to the equally stupid CEST; as well as tyrant@western.eu for WET -> WEST. (You could write a postscript about WET and WEST being innately silly too.) 07:32:11 WEST isn't so bad 07:32:28 WEST and EEST 07:32:37 ("What's your time zone?" "It's wet.") 07:55:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:55:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:01:15 -!- doesthiswork has left. 08:01:30 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 08:07:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:07:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 08:13:45 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:20:28 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:23:29 -!- nooodl has joined. 08:28:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:28:54 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:42:58 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:26:30 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:44:21 -!- carado has joined. 09:52:48 -!- Snowyowl has joined. 10:09:38 -!- Snowyowl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:11:10 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:12:13 -!- carado has joined. 10:17:55 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:37:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 10:39:42 -!- btiffin has left. 10:42:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:57:09 -!- zzo38 has joined. 11:15:19 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:32:33 -!- ousia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:36:50 -!- ousia has joined. 11:40:57 -!- carado has joined. 11:42:49 -!- carado_ has joined. 11:43:01 -!- carado_ has quit (Client Quit). 11:56:06 -!- ogrom has joined. 12:03:53 `slist 12:03:59 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 12:11:12 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 12:21:35 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:23:25 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 12:32:07 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:38:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:58:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:00:33 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:16:24 Phantom_Hoover: attn. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9 13:16:40 coppro: i have used idris briefly 13:16:45 that's it 13:16:46 i quit 13:30:08 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 13:37:15 You just need to come up with a language more trivial than brainfuck 13:39:55 I do? 13:42:02 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined. 13:43:41 If you must. 13:44:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-repayment_mortgage 13:45:17 “Gold pour – an illustration of literal cash "flow".” 13:48:16 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:48:48 I'd rather not, if it's all the same to you. 13:49:01 -!- carado has joined. 14:04:54 “Gold pour – an illustration of literal cash "flow".” <-- what a terrible pun 14:20:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:24:36 * ThatOtherPerson slashes puns with a Vorpal sword 14:27:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:27:59 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 14:28:21 Don't do that, they make a snickering sound. 14:30:17 http://www.adamatomic.com/canabalt/mega/ 14:30:26 THAT's a cool game..so classy! 14:31:15 death sprint 14:34:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:34:59 ThatOtherPerson, I only attacks Jabberwocks 14:35:03 attack* 14:35:37 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:40:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:42:28 * impomatic prints off a table of odd and even numbers for use in the office... 14:55:44 -!- Dmina has joined. 15:01:49 because it's too hard to check if a number is even 15:01:55 unless it is given in binary 15:02:04 it which case it's still pretty hard but much easier. 15:02:07 *in 15:03:40 i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages) 15:05:57 on a computer I usually just do if((~(x & (INT_MAX >> 31))+1)==0) printf("it's even") 15:07:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:07:21 kmc: amazing 15:07:27 that or ((~(a & (INT_MAX >> 31))+1)*-1+1)%2 15:07:51 `addquote i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages) 15:07:55 1026) i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed lan 15:08:07 fuck 15:11:10 That is the kind of things in a dream that it might be. 15:12:40 -!- Dmina has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 15:13:37 As well as call/cc you might also try the other variant which I called "lem/cc"; I have proven that it works not only in logic but also in programming 15:14:40 Do you have the dream where you are mainly observing the dream rather than acting the dream? 15:15:42 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:15:53 not lately 15:15:56 what's the type of lem/cc? 15:17:08 In Haskell it is: Cont r (Either a (a -> Cont r b)) 15:18:10 `delquote 1026 15:18:15 ​*poof* i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed 15:18:29 `addquote i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages) 15:18:33 1026) i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages) 15:19:19 i don't get it, what changed 15:21:12 elliott: several characters were added to the end 15:23:17 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:23:35 he removed a "because" 15:25:16 yep 15:27:15 wow such cheating 15:27:50 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:28:03 technically I think we have to delete the new quote, then you can say your modified sentence and elliott can quote that 15:29:10 i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages) 15:29:16 Hello 15:29:17 Taneb: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 15:29:33 except now i'm the liar because it wasn't "just now" anymore!!! 15:30:04 kmc: imo removing the "because" loses something 15:30:19 how about we go back in time 15:30:25 and fix the irc rfc to allow more chars 15:30:31 or 15:30:41 shorten hackego's username to c and make it a single-digit-number quote 15:30:43 would that be enough chars 15:32:21 or make hackego split lines that are too long? 15:33:22 ha ha ha 15:43:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 15:47:43 -!- Bike has joined. 15:49:03 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 16:03:09 Is putting large chunks of butter on my bagels a bad idea? 16:03:53 Define "large" 16:04:04 THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL 16:04:06 -!- Taneb has left ("Leaving"). 16:04:07 you'll die irl 16:04:10 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:04:12 (R IP) 16:04:20 I got crushed by the butter 16:04:36 I don't really like butter. 16:04:37 Sgeo, yeah with your diet you're at serious risk of coronary disease 16:05:25 * Sgeo cannot tell if Phantom_Hoover is serious or joking 16:06:01 Sgeo is most likely 16:06:29 No, woops, Phantom_Hoover is most likely 16:06:57 But I have been gaining quite a bit lately, if I'm not careful I could end up... with... too much weight... this is a bizarre concept for me 16:07:25 But I mean butter is fatty, right? Is it a healthy kind of fat or an unhealthy fat? 16:08:25 Unhealthy, I think 16:08:36 I'm seeing a lot of natural BS sites promoting butter as healthy 16:11:04 -!- Koen_ has joined. 16:11:15 i'm still not sold on this idea that weight gain / loss depends so much on what /particular/ kind of fat / sugar / etc. you eat 16:11:44 kmc, it's blood congestion rather than weight gain that the saturated/unsaturated thing is about 16:11:47 i'm no expert but in my end user capacity, i think that's a second order effect 16:11:54 "MONGOLIA'S MEGA-FISH IN FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL" just fyi, cablegate stuff from 'unimportant' countries is p. great 16:11:58 well, i thought Sgeo was talking about weight 16:12:07 "164-Foot Genghis Khan with Laser Eyes to Tower Over Niagara" 16:12:22 ... 16:12:44 . . 16:12:50 ... 16:12:53 [.. CSX ..] 16:13:13 apparently during the soviet era stuff about genghis was repressed due to that whole "conquered russia" thing 16:14:09 "Although the Mongolian-Kuwait bilateral trade relationship remains minuscule, mostly trade in falcons," 16:14:19 falconcoins 16:14:33 Mongolia and Kuwait 16:14:54 "Mongolia With Kuwait Against Iraq; Bond of Falcons" 16:15:17 wow apparently a mongolian falcon is around $7k to buy 16:15:43 kmc, while trying to gain weight, I don't feel like having a heart attack from having the wrong kinds of fats floating around 16:17:37 My dad suggests after some time I should get a lipid profile. Haven't heard of that before, but that sounds like it makes sense 16:19:28 I ate teriyaki sirloin steak yesterday 16:19:39 I think the sauce had more flavor than the steak 16:22:16 well the sauce is specifically designed to have flavor 16:22:22 the steak is just meat 16:22:35 So why do people like steak so much then? 16:23:08 They even tell me that getting steak well-done ruins it 16:23:18 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 16:23:32 (I had it medium-well last night) 16:26:43 I don't know, I like it meat in small chunks with the hell cooked out of them, because they've got a more fun texture that way 16:28:47 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:29:26 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:30:09 Wait, uncooked beef has hell in it??? 16:30:51 16:31:28 > "hell" `elem` ["uncooked","beef"] 16:31:29 False 16:31:33 hth 16:32:54 if you've ever eaten uncooked beef that has sat out for too long then you'd know all about the hell in it 16:32:56 -!- Bike_ has joined. 16:34:45 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:35:07 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:35:14 Sgeo, people are weird about steak 16:35:35 doesthiswork: you also get the fun texture if only the outside is burnt 16:36:01 -!- mnoqy has joined. 16:36:11 kmc: not fun enough 16:36:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:37:42 -!- Bike has joined. 16:38:01 "Windows XP makes wireless networking with your computer easy and secure, so you can work where you want, when you want." 16:38:34 when you cook sous vide steak, you get to keep all the juices and can put them on mashed potatoes, which makes them delicious 16:38:49 which demonstrates that steak itself is not flavorless 16:38:54 but yeah, plain steak is kind of sad 16:39:00 sous vide? 16:39:15 "Experience the ultimate in safety, security, and privacy" 16:39:18 Yeah right 16:39:23 AnotherTest, are you watching XPTV? 16:39:36 you need seasonings (garlic, salt, pepper) and sides (mashed potatoes, fried mushrooms, french fries, greens, etc) 16:39:51 Yes, there's this great show on "Registering components" 16:39:58 but it's not really fair to claim that the steak is not doing anything 16:40:01 and then once in a while this black DOS screen pops up 16:40:02 flavors are not linear additive 16:40:06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aO0jumwHdg&list=PLBFD29B2364412ABA 16:40:07 "We've removed DOS" 16:40:10 AnotherTest, ^ 16:40:10 flavors enhance each other 16:40:14 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:40:28 Sgeo: sous vide is a way of cooking meats that was popular first with gourmet chefs and now with hobbyists 16:41:20 Sgeo: the goal of cooking a steak is to raise the interior to only about 135°F; traditionally this is done by grilling or frying at a much higher temperature, but then you need to be really careful about the time to make sure you don't over-cook it 16:41:53 to cook a steak sous vide, you vacuum-seal it in a plastic bag and then put that in a water bath at 135°F or whatever, for an hour or more 16:42:08 the whole thing reaches that temperature and therefore reaches exactly the level of done-ness you want 16:42:14 kmc, that sounds science-y 16:42:18 then you quickly fry it to get the crunchy outside texture 16:42:20 yeah it's great 16:42:30 i do it with a crock pot, a temperature sensor, and an arduino 16:42:39 there are lots of DIY sous vide projects online that you can read about 16:43:12 some other dishes involve cooking for 48+ hours this way 16:43:41 apparently you can also cook cheap steak this way and make it delicious, because if it's in long enough, the tough stringy connective tissue starts to gelatenize 16:46:40 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 16:48:30 I'm not entirely sure why steak has quite the reputation it does... Its flavor is really fairly subtle. 16:48:40 which reputation is that? 16:48:55 -!- conehead has joined. 16:49:08 kmc: The everyman kinda-expensive food that people really like? 16:49:33 yeah 16:49:36 it's a little strange 16:50:40 I mean, I like it, but it's kinda one of those more... delicate things. Y'know? 16:51:24 Oh, who am I kidding, most people probably just slather steak sauce on it. And then it tastes rather different. :P 16:53:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:55:43 why are there so many people in the channel that never talk? 16:55:49 Why is it called steak sauce? Does it not taste good on other kinds of meat? Or on bread, or lettuce? 16:56:13 Beats me. 16:56:16 doesthiswork: Because I can't talk anything smart :) 16:56:34 Though it's *essentially* UK "brown sauce". 16:56:45 doesthiswork, because we are funny to watch, perhaps 16:56:48 and americans can't make sauce . 16:56:55 mroman_: I don't see these guy talk anything smart 16:57:02 *or gals 16:57:10 I prefer pepper sauce to brown sauce 16:57:12 Isn't guys used for gals too? 16:57:21 sometimes 16:57:32 doesthiswork: most channels have that 16:57:33 At least on television a bunch of girls usually address each other also with "hey guys" 16:57:47 Sgeo: i used to put it on lots of things besides steak 16:57:52 names are arbitrary 16:58:06 yes I think "guys" is becoming gender-neutral 16:58:15 but I'm assuming guy still means male. 16:58:18 and to some extent "dude" as well 16:58:29 but guys is usaly gender-neutral. 16:58:32 *usually 16:58:33 kmc: i don't really think that's true 16:58:36 but i'm still somewhat careful about it 16:58:38 like the french "ils". 16:58:57 English needs better pronouns 16:59:06 i use "they" as a gender-neutral third-person singular 16:59:15 and i also use "y'all" as a second person plural 16:59:32 even though i'm not from the south and don't have a southern accent 16:59:39 you guys is my regional second person plural 16:59:48 As long as you dont use "yo s*" 16:59:57 there are some strange ones, like "yinz" 17:00:04 (pittsburgh area) 17:00:15 that's a shortened you-ones 17:00:15 the "guys being gender neutral" thing I think is mainly because "male is the default gender" so 17:00:32 yeah, this is a reason to be careful 17:01:11 though whenever I think of replacements for that one I imagine someone in like, a southern drawl going "hey ya'llllll" 17:01:15 XD 17:01:21 Guys is male by default but when the facts clearly show that not everyone is male it temporarily stretches to be inclusive 17:02:06 that doesn't really make any sense 17:02:15 it's bad that language is so gendered and it's not clear in each individual case whether it's better to invent new non-gendered forms or to try and ignore the gendered connotations in hopes that they go away 17:02:22 i don't think there's an obvious answer to that 17:02:37 both approaches can be harmful 17:03:22 I've been in online places that invent new forms, and in online places that are explicit about the gendered forms being non-gendered by default 17:03:44 you can't really change the meaning of words by fiat like that 17:03:49 The natural solution seems to be to use the nearest form that is unpolluted by the connotations you dislike. 17:03:52 you can't just magically say something doesn't have gendered connotations by stating so... 17:03:56 surely this is obvious 17:03:57 that's a big fallacy of programmers 17:04:01 (and maybe lawyers?) 17:04:02 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 17:04:08 because it works in those specialized domains 17:04:11 >.> they were both law-y games 17:04:14 well then. 17:04:20 elliott: Yes but what if we could? 17:04:29 i have signed contracts that have clauses like "In this document, the word "he" shall refer to blah blah" 17:04:30 :) 17:04:40 and "The word "or" shall mean "either/or"" 17:04:42 and crap like that 17:04:50 then we would be in a magical fantasy land where there would be no point to ahve words with gendered connotations anyway 17:04:54 so... 17:04:58 yeah, it's like the whole thing with "well isn't actually racist, it really means , as if like, saying so magically removes all the meaning it's gathered after 200 years 17:05:07 " 17:05:10 closed that quote for you 17:05:11 yeah 17:05:14 something something hofstadter 17:05:15 sorry XD 17:05:30 probably everything we are saying is part of some quote in a parenthical someone started in 2004 17:05:31 or the sort of opposite "well when I said it I didn't *mean* it in a racist way so it's fine" 17:05:33 person paper on the purity of language? 17:05:36 the longest IRC message ever 17:05:46 doesthiswork: quite 17:05:48 )" 17:05:56 no it's the other way around 17:05:59 you fool!!!! 17:06:01 now what will we do 17:06:07 syntax error 17:06:12 universe collapsing in 5, 4, 3 ... 17:06:25 finally i can stop wasting time on irc 17:06:42 » 17:06:55 elliott: I've kind of inadvertantly/subconsciously defaulted to the "hey guys" thing myself but when I do it consciously I just try to pick better phrases 17:06:58 like "hi everyone" 17:07:10 i say "y'all" and i'm not ashamed of it 17:07:14 i didn't grow up saying it though 17:07:15 olla nosotros? 17:07:20 it's like, there's enough options that I don't feel like it has to be awkward or hard 17:07:21 i'm from the midwest, we have the "neutral" american accent 17:07:22 *holla 17:07:33 I've been in a chatroom that auto-kicked when someone says "y'all" 17:07:37 except for certain words that will get you mocked on the coasts 17:07:38 kmc: not anymore youdon't 17:07:39 "hey assholes" 17:07:41 like using "pop" for soda 17:07:53 I feel ridiculous trying to say y'all XD 17:07:58 yawl 17:08:01 because I am like so not stereotypically southerner or midwestern in the slightest 17:08:03 elliott: "Good morning sinners!" 17:08:11 doesthiswork: how do you mean 17:08:12 i like "peeps" 17:08:22 "Good morning siners!" 17:08:38 good morning signers 17:08:59 kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift 17:09:00 good morning singers 17:09:08 i'm pretty nervous about language stuff in general since i realized how closely tied it is to racism and national suppression >_> 17:09:12 yep 17:09:29 (I read your good morning signers as singers at first, and wanted to do the firey version) 17:11:59 just say "good morning not-bikes" 17:12:05 that will say hi to everyone who matters 17:12:34 :( :( 17:12:50 nikes?? 17:12:55 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 17:15:59 that's capitalist Bike 17:16:14 or greek 17:19:39 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 17:24:39 and i also use "y'all" as a second person plural 17:24:47 er the correct form is youse 17:25:06 vosotros 17:25:07 there is also "all ya'lls" 17:25:16 Wasn't "you" originally plural exclusively? 17:25:20 yes 17:25:42 isn't vosotros only used in spain and argentina/ 17:25:54 yes 17:25:57 Bike, and Saudi Arabia, evidently 17:26:05 Taneb: heh, no 17:26:09 hm, lots of castilian speakers there 17:26:20 But they mention it in passing in Spanish class 17:26:40 In latin, the plural is "vos" and the singular is "tu" 17:26:56 It's similar in French, I believe, but I seem to recall that "vous" can be plural or formal 17:26:56 yeah, my spanish class mentioned the v's but didn't teach us them since it was central america oriented. 17:27:05 indeed 17:27:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-V_distinction 17:27:48 honestly when using "vous" as formal singular I never know whether I should write all the adjectives and stuff in singular or plural 17:28:53 So, between "thou", "you", "y'all", and "all y'all", English has access to four different numbers of you 17:29:45 when was the last time you used thou? 17:29:48 "all y'all" is for the redundancy inclined 17:30:07 Koen_: somewhere from the 1600s to the early 1800s 17:30:22 OHGOD I DIDN'T IMAGINE YOU WOULD BE SO OLD 17:30:46 Koen_, I used "thou" this afternoon 17:30:48 all ya'll exists because y'all tends to be used for situations where prototypically the number of people are indeterminate. 17:31:04 so all ya'll means "each and every one of you" 17:31:19 Taneb: were you courting a lady 17:31:33 Koen_, as it happens, yes 17:31:41 Koen_: in that case, the last time I used "thou" was about six words ago. 17:31:44 you're so transparent 17:32:29 The last time I courted a lady was never. 17:32:35 Not as transparent as this guy: http://25.media.tumblr.com/3456e6adde7f9c89c55dc5afabf269f5/tumblr_ml7amfP5Bt1r3u0x4o4_500.png 17:32:37 ThatOtherPerson: I meant with people who don't discuss the semantics of each and every one of the languages they know on a regular basis 17:33:00 Koen_, that also rules me out 17:33:23 Koen_: then maybe several days ago? 17:33:26 Taneb, is that you 17:33:30 No 17:33:35 I am a strange person and say strange things sometimes. 17:33:36 I am somewhat less transparent 17:33:42 Taneb: were you courting Fiora? 17:33:49 Koen_, no, I was not 17:33:53 what 17:33:55 I believe Fiora was in a different country 17:33:59 what is this conversation 17:34:16 Taneb: were you courting Lymia? 17:34:27 I'm pretty sure Lymia was in a different country again 17:34:30 Phantom_Hoover: I believe we are discussing ladies and how one courts them, if ever. 17:34:47 Koen_: are you just going to name everyone female in the channel & why 17:34:54 The person whom I was courting I do not believe frequents this channel, or indeed IRC 17:35:00 I believe I just did elliott 17:35:07 Wow, a normal human 17:35:15 ThatOtherPerson, not quite 17:35:19 She goes on TVTropes a lot 17:35:27 ooh better than a normal human 17:35:36 -rol- 17:35:39 -rolll- 17:35:42 Taneb: do you discuss the semantics of each and every one of the languages you know on a regular basis with every lady that you have met so far? 17:35:45 * Bike rolls 17:36:05 Koen_, no, only the ones who were interested in this sort of thing 17:36:18 oh good 17:36:42 so what's your standard courting move? 17:36:48 17:36:56 I'm pretty convinced discussion the semantics of sex should work pretty well 17:37:10 We talked about vowel mergers 17:37:22 For instance the cot-caught merger 17:37:23 still not at all clear on how this came up in the first place 17:37:30 if they're scientific they'll feel a deep need to perform the experiment 17:37:37 Phantom_Hoover, I'm being interrogated on my love life 17:37:43 In the context of linguistics 17:37:52 hey! you're the one who brought it to my attention! 17:38:00 You asked! 17:38:10 * Fiora giggles 17:38:28 I'm still surprised I actually have a love life 17:38:32 Giggles are nice. 17:38:50 besides I've just been deemed admissible to a school where apparently everyone is even more of a geek than I am and that includes the suprisingly high number of girls 17:39:11 oh jesus is this still about the 42.fr thing 17:39:20 Fiora: has a guy ever discussed the semantics of a language with you? Other than on IRC, I mean. 17:39:32 Koen_, being a geek is surprisingly gender-neutral 17:39:38 Most of my friends who are geeks are female 17:39:47 And most of my friends who are female are geeks, as it happens 17:39:58 hu 17:40:07 I have approximately 0 friends who are geeks 17:40:32 * Gregor bites the head off of a chicken. 17:40:40 i agree with Gregor 17:40:42 i have approximately 0 friends fuck you won the contest oh yeah 17:40:54 i agree with Bike too 17:40:55 mnoqy, you seem different somehow 17:41:00 Have you had a haircut? 17:41:24 i can't remember the last time i had one of those. wait i think i do -vaguely- 17:41:26 Gregor: huh, what do feathers mixed with blood and eyes and muscle and bones and various organs taste like? 17:41:33 "geek" is a pretty broad category at this point 17:41:42 ThatOtherPerson: Just like chicken. 17:41:52 Taneb: I think mnoqy got an alphabetical sort 17:42:27 kmc, I'm using it in the sense of "willing to be openly enthusiastic of things they like, especially things such as super-hero movies" 17:42:29 geek communities vary widley in terms of gender ratio, and in terms of how they treat women 17:42:58 I don't bite the head off of roosters. 17:43:25 one thing I've learned (from talking to the people who work on this problem) is that if your local language user group meetup is 3% women and you want it to be 30% women, there are some fairly concrete steps you can take to make this happen fairly quickly 17:43:37 oh like what 17:43:37 mnoqy: are you one of those guys to whom the hairdresser says "see you next year" after a haircut? 17:44:06 i went off of hairdressers cold-turkey 17:44:22 realisation of the day: my keyboard's chording is too shitty to play girp 17:44:26 monqy just occasionally burns off his hair 17:45:06 Bike: well the Boston Python group had intro and intermediate classes for "women and their friends", producing a group which is at least 50% women (and ensuring that the men who show up know someone rather than being random creepers) 17:45:27 and this had an immediate effect on the ratio at the gender-neutral events 17:45:40 nice 17:45:46 Phantom_Hoover, that sucks 17:45:53 girp? 17:46:06 ThatOtherPerson, http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html 17:46:14 going to freshman physics and CS classes and there being a 9/1 ratio is still creepy as hell 17:46:17 It's a climbing sim from the maker of QWOP 17:46:41 My further maths class has a 10:0 male/female ration 17:46:43 should be a dating sim imo 17:46:44 *ratio 17:47:03 A male/female ration would be interesting 17:47:23 http://www.slideshare.net/kellan/more-women-in-engineering-something-that-actually-worked-14630106 17:47:28 And perhaps illegal 17:47:30 this is about Etsy and Hacker School 17:47:36 O_o 17:47:59 (my less far maths class I think is about 4:1) 17:48:16 (my latin class is 1:4) 17:48:32 last week I helped run http://wellesley.openhatch.org/ 17:48:34 (except someone hasn't turned up since Christmas so it's really (1:3) 17:48:35 ) 17:49:07 Phantom_Hoover, I have many keyboards! 17:49:11 "something that ACTUALLY WORKED" i'm sorry kmc but i have to laugh at this subtitle 17:49:46 ugh, ratios 17:50:17 http://image.slidesharecdn.com/firstroundctosummit-121008002521-phpapp02/95/slide-19-728.jpg?1360178044 i still find it hard to believe that they make you actually write out code. i'm so naive 17:50:49 http://image.slidesharecdn.com/firstroundctosummit-121008002521-phpapp02/95/slide-26-728.jpg?1360178044 nice 17:50:50 writing code out on paper sucks ass 17:51:06 ... 17:51:11 yeah i did that a lot in high school 17:51:11 how do you even girp 17:51:12 never again 17:51:17 or qwop for that matter 17:51:26 ThatOtherPerson: are those vim commands 17:51:36 Bike: yeah, I took AP CS, we had to write out C++ code by hand 17:51:42 that's how I finally learned how to draw the & character 17:51:43 it's not easy! 17:51:52 kmc: apparently they are impossible 17:51:55 games 17:52:12 qwop I've never got the hang of 17:52:20 girp I'm almost competent at 17:52:33 i always used to draw & backwards >_> 17:52:39 & is cool i write it all the time 17:53:08 "SUBJECT: WARNING: TAINTED LOCAL VODKA KILLS 11 IN MONGOLIA " these cables are seriously great 17:53:16 i write & as et 17:53:32 you some kinda classicist, boy 17:53:45 i construct & as et 17:53:53 `-` 17:53:55 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: -`: not found 17:54:03 i "exclude" the middle by not putting any space between the letters 17:54:13 ’-’ 17:55:29 Bike: more recently I've done coding interviews with an actual computer 17:55:37 whoa, man. 17:55:49 often those are only partly about the code, and partly about watching how someone works 17:55:55 how easily they can look up docs, grep a codebase 17:55:59 judging them by their choice of editor 17:56:00 yeah 17:56:02 haha 17:56:25 and yeah, that list of 4 rules from Hacker School is good 17:56:53 my editor habits are weird 17:56:54 the even worse form of (2) that I hear often is "You do know that $foo, right?" 17:57:01 i switch between emacs and vim constantly 17:57:28 i'm always just like, ugh, can't you talk about this without being so elitist 17:57:49 i say that kind of thing impulsively a lot and then feel guilty for being condescending 17:58:00 i usually have emacs on but i use vi to edit files quickly because i'm too dumb to work out emacsclient. i figure knowing both decently isn't so bad, anyway 17:58:01 elliott, you should disappear for a bit then go to an interview done by kmc under a false name 17:58:07 (successfully made this issue about myself) 17:58:43 yeah I complain publicly about how people communicate as a way to commit to communicating better myself 17:58:47 that's maybe half of it 17:58:52 the other half is that i like complaining 17:58:55 I never learnt vim, and am barely competent at emacs 17:59:20 basically you just do C-S-c M- M-x dwim 17:59:42 is that how you exit emacs? 18:00:03 Isn't emacs some sort of OS? 18:00:12 no, you need mount separate 18:00:20 ah 18:00:51 and maybe vim for a text editor? 18:01:08 [joke comparing emacs to an operating system] [sitcom laugh track] 18:01:17 [joke about emacs lacking an editor] [sitcom laugh track] 18:01:34 18:01:42 Man, I want a sitcom laugh track 18:02:04 probably pretty easy to find 18:02:08 Step 1: Get some speakers 18:02:13 "The Soviet Hangover: Alcoholism Threatens Mongolia's Progress" 18:02:15 Step 2: Glue them to yourself 18:02:16 just have to "know" where to "look" 18:02:28 Step 3: Find laugh track online 18:02:46 Step 4: put it on mp3 player, plug it in to speakers 18:03:00 Step 5: press "play" whenever you make a bad joke 18:04:31 It would be interesting if someone actually did that. 18:05:04 Everyone would hate me 18:05:11 it would be awful :☺) 18:10:24 Absolutely dreadful. 18:10:33 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:12:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:18:19 ThatOtherPerson: semantics of language...? I.. I don't know... probably someone has rambled about that at some point... 18:18:26 -!- nooodl has joined. 18:18:33 :D 18:18:40 I have a really bad memory, I can't really remember many details beyond a week or two ago... 18:18:58 * kmc too 18:19:00 Right, it probably wouldn't be that memorable 18:20:03 I'd probably only remember it if it was a more emotional moment (like if it was frustrating or painful or something...) 18:20:15 babe are you a kalmyk because *rambles about altaic theory for twenty minutes* 18:20:36 hahaha 18:21:06 all the ladies love historical linguistics 18:22:20 What, precisely, is a kalmyk? 18:23:08 the kalmyk republic is part of western russia. the kalmyk people who make up about half of it are mongolic and speak a mongolian language called kalmyk. 18:23:11 I guess I couuuld argue that someone telling me about how 'cunt' isn't a gendered insult is 'telling me about the semantics of language' 18:23:15 this is "fiora-relevant" because it's a chess place. 18:23:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:23:44 Fiora: I feel sorry for you D: 18:24:03 The Altaic theory is an idea that a couple asian language groups like Turkic, Mongolic, and Japonic are all actually part of a larger grouping called Altaic. It's pretty non-mainstream. 18:24:46 Whoa 18:24:52 Fiora: ;_; 18:25:14 whoa? 18:25:26 aohw 18:25:27 Fiora: i'm trying to imagine a pickup line for this 18:26:30 it's not working 18:26:53 i just imagine a guy in a suit and fedora walking up to a seat at the bar, and opening his mouth, and then cockroaches pour out 18:27:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:28:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:28:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:31:08 Bike: I am like dying laughing at that metaphor 18:31:22 metap- oh, right, yeah 18:31:42 gross 18:32:25 fact: whenever i try to picture a stereotypical bar scene, i always think of that one scene from naked lunch 18:35:22 naked lunch? 18:35:46 the cronenberg film adapted from the burroughs book 18:36:04 guy walks up to a bar and the mugwump, a weird looking alien creature starts advising him about a gay cruise 18:36:26 i misread that as gay cuisine. like, what's that. 18:36:41 Dick. 18:36:51 Richard. 18:37:54 I can't find the bar scene so have some Zappa instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MsO1FLYee8 18:38:02 m-hm 18:38:05 -disappointedly- 18:39:48 mnoqy: Gay cuisine is nothing but spotted dick. 18:40:02 sorry you're a bit late to the party 18:40:07 Bike: you also didn't get to see the part of that conversation where the guy was arguing about how complaining about someone "PMSing" isn't at all sexist <.< 18:40:23 wait is this the ##asm thing 18:40:36 yeah 18:40:45 ##asm sounds like hell 18:40:45 yeah i think i remember that, unfortunately 18:41:06 i couldn't tell you, i got banned, 'cos i'm a rebel. ain't be tamed 18:41:13 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:41:34 got banned for using AT&T syntax 18:41:36 "just unforgivable" 18:41:38 XP 18:41:41 yeah I lasted like an hour there 18:41:42 heh 18:41:55 it was actually fine most of the time? like it was better than ##c even 18:41:59 this also led me to learn that freenode doesn't count slurs as discriminatory or something 18:42:03 despite not really having a good mod like ##c does 18:42:03 "better than ##c" 18:42:08 whatever, fuck the police 18:42:13 * ThatOtherPerson joins ##asm 18:42:15 (though she's mostly pretty hands off) 18:42:24 Fiora: you sure it wasn't just that guy whose name started with X who was good? 18:42:36 is ##asm about asm in general, or a particular asm in particular? 18:42:36 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 18:42:39 @messages 18:42:39 oerjan said 1d 18h 8m 55s ago: You seem to have missed User:EzraFrier 18:42:42 okay maybe -_- but like there were lots of people who asked questions and talked about things and people even like, asked me for help in PM 18:42:44 what does ##asm think of TERSE 18:42:44 ais523: in general 18:42:48 Fiora: oh, huh 18:42:49 If I had to guess it'd be about x86 assembly. 18:43:00 and I got a grand total of just two creepy people the whole time, that's a new record 18:43:03 no, it's general, even says so in the topic, and people asked about ARM &c. 18:43:14 i spent like a week in ##c helping beginners, and then one day I answered a question wrong and they were like STFU YOU FUCKING MORON GET OUT 18:43:27 But I don't really want to stick around watching people get called "PMSing cunts" 18:43:27 it was about variable length arrays "who even uses those" 18:43:29 * pikhq_ does not envy women on the internet. 18:43:41 kmc: I love VLAs. 18:43:44 kmc: it really seems to wildly depend on who's active in the channel 18:43:48 !tell oerjan good catch, I indeed missed it 18:43:49 does ##c actually have good ops 18:43:55 Not on the stack, mind, but hey. 18:43:56 I rejoined it after having like, a 4 hour conversation with the moderator there 18:43:57 because that seems to be at odds with ##c being the worst channel in the universe 18:44:05 who is kind of wonderful 18:44:06 and fun to talk with 18:44:09 foo(char bar[static 4]) is quite nice. 18:44:13 well, one of the moderators,I don't know if there's others 18:44:17 ais523: @ 18:44:18 not ! 18:44:23 @tell oerjan good catch, I indeed missed it 18:44:23 Consider it noted. 18:44:26 Or foo(size_t x, char bar[x]) 18:44:32 elliott: right 18:44:39 hmm… the most annoying thing about rebinding caps lock 18:44:45 is that in the rare cases you turn it on by mistake 18:44:50 it takes a while to remember how to turn it off 18:45:03 (I rebound the caps lock key to compose, and the caps lock command to shift+shift) 18:45:29 is caps lock ever useful 18:45:37 It makes a great control. 18:45:40 when you're typing disclaimers 18:45:47 i just hold shift 18:45:49 I've got l-win as compose. 18:45:59 pikhq_: huh? super is a really useful key 18:46:04 pikhq_: did you see the linux exploit that happened because someone used a VLA on the stack 18:46:07 Erm, r-win 18:46:09 and kernel stacks are only 8kB 18:46:12 L-win is super. 18:46:15 pikhq_: right 18:46:19 this laptop doesn't have an r-win 18:46:21 i use the silly menu key as compose. no R-win… 18:46:23 and by "someone" i mean econet.ko 18:46:29 kmc: No, but I can imagine. :) 18:46:30 oh gosh. a VLA in the kernel? 18:46:31 mnoqy: the menu key is actually useful 18:46:41 econet.ko? 18:46:59 Fiora: VLAs in general are quite nice. The problem is, *on the stack* they are an attack waiting to happen. 18:47:05 mnoqy: it's probably the fastest way to correct typos when you can't remember what the correct spelling is 18:47:13 Fiora: Linux driver for Econet, a network protocol used by British home computers from the 80's 18:47:18 a driver that /nobody/ uses anymore 18:47:20 i can't work out how to set my compose key 18:47:22 it's horrible 18:47:29 ais523: good point except i dont use editors with that feature =/ 18:47:29 But when passed as arguments they make array handling somewhat nicer. 18:47:32 since nobody uses it, it's full of bugs 18:47:40 but until recently, it was part of the kernel and built by most distros 18:47:51 and it would even auto-load if unprivileged userspace tried to create an Econet socket! 18:47:52 for some reason my e-mail composition spell check doesnt work 18:47:54 pikhq_: um, VLAs can be not on the stack? 18:48:07 kmc: wow 18:48:18 Fiora: Yes. void foo(size_t x, char bar[x]) 18:48:42 Or void foo(size_t x, size_t y, char bar[x][y]) 18:48:47 that's pretty cute 18:48:56 Fiora: http://pastebin.com/88EPCd2q a fun exploit for one bug in econet 18:49:07 oh, isn't that just the same as a pointer...? 18:49:08 well it actually exploits 3 bugs 18:49:10 or is there some different 18:49:12 *difference 18:49:17 the most interesting one is not in econet 18:49:21 Fiora: No, it's actually an array. Straight-up a full array. 18:49:37 Fiora: As opposed to void foo(char bar[4]), which is just a pointer. 18:49:46 And void foo(char bar[static 4]) is also an array. 18:49:50 very cute 18:49:55 @_@ I will never quite get C 18:49:56 I will never quite get C 18:50:03 thanks lambdabot 18:50:12 For what it's worth, this is a fairly obscure bit of C. 18:50:40 super obscure I'd say 18:50:45 Added in C99, and many people still avoid C99 features like the plague. 18:50:55 i like C99 :< 18:51:00 I love C99. 18:51:08 But some people think they should still support MSVC. 18:51:13 c99 is better than that other standard 18:51:17 i married c99 18:51:18 (the IE6 of compilers) 18:52:30 Microsoft >:( 18:53:15 kmc: geez I don't understand 90% of that but that's amazing 18:53:27 the exploit? i can go into it 18:53:42 oh, you can? um, I'd love to listen if you want to 18:53:46 also there's a walkthrough in my talk about kernel exploits: http://ugcs.net/~keegan/talks/kernel-exploit/talk.pdf 18:54:13 maybe look through that first, and i can answer questions 18:55:10 * Fiora dives in 18:55:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:55:48 kmc: the only exploit on a stack-VLA is allocating more data than actually fits on the stack, right? 18:56:02 that's the main one anyway 18:56:04 oh kmc so like before I touch this, someone had an interesting question in ##c-unregistered that was like. actually really interesting 18:56:04 Someone tell me an esolang that will take ~1-2 hours to implement 18:56:09 because I am bored 18:56:10 that usually causes a segfault in userspace, but the kernel doesn't have that escape valve 18:56:23 they're porting Jedi Academy to Linux from the open source code, and they were wondering what a particular code snippet did 18:56:29 ThatOtherPerson: hmm 18:56:34 and now I realize like. why so many programs are hard to port... 18:56:34 kmc: btw I segfaulted gcc before 18:56:39 ThatOtherPerson: Eodermdrome 18:56:41 With a VVLA 18:56:42 it had a NULL pointer check that looked like this: 18:56:45 mnoqy: hahahaha :) 18:56:49 if((int)psString > 0) 18:56:58 Fiora: ouch 18:56:58 ais523: well in Linux userspace anyway, the stack is usually an auto-growing mapping 18:57:14 ThatOtherPerson: write a brainfuck interpreter in 60 different programming languages 18:57:18 kmc: yes but it's possible to mmap something next to the stack guard page 18:57:21 and then it can't grow any more 18:57:24 yeah 18:57:29 and then it will fault 18:57:30 and of course that code works wonderfully... 18:57:33 ... on windows 32-bit ... 18:57:36 AnotherTest: I don't even know 60 different programming languages :/ 18:57:39 ... without /LARGEADDRESSAWARE... -_- 18:57:48 Fiora: it works quite neatly on 64-bit, too 18:58:01 because the addresses that map to negative as a signed int are all reserved by the kernel, IIRC 18:58:02 although, hmm 18:58:03 Fiora: :/ 18:58:05 that's physical memory 18:58:06 bad code 18:58:15 it'd work if it was (intptr_t)ptr on 64-bit, I think? 18:58:16 ais523: also, int may still be 32-bit 18:58:16 does the kernel potentially map stuff into virtual memory with negative addresses? 18:58:17 ais523: on a lot of 64-bit architectures, int is smaller than void* 18:58:20 olsner: oh right 18:58:20 such as amd64 18:58:39 but (int) might be too small 18:58:58 ThatOtherPerson: just looking through mine, Suffolk is unimplemented but shouldn't take too long to implement 18:59:01 why do people even write that, why not if (psString) 18:59:02 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Suffolk 18:59:05 also lol hungarian notation 18:59:09 but it breaks on linux 32-bit because linux uses the bottom 3GB for userspace, right? 18:59:14 I think 18:59:19 * Fiora is going by the chart in your pdf <.< 18:59:23 for people who love manifest types but hate typechecking 18:59:32 Fiora: it does (on i386 anyway) 18:59:33 I once wrote a function that took a uint16_t[65536] when I was tired and not thinking 18:59:39 so yeah, your stack will typically have a 'negative' address 18:59:43 since it's at the top of the userspace 3GB 19:00:00 (also you can build a kernel with a different split, or even one where userspace and kernel have different page tables) 19:00:05 ais523: thanks! 19:00:08 (but 3GB / 1GB is the default and nearly universal afaik) 19:00:32 also, i386 programs running on an x86_64 kernel get a full 4GB 19:00:50 that explains why the code broke then, I guess 19:00:51 actually, nowadays from the userspace point of view, things like the stack are in random locations 19:00:54 to make exploits harder to write 19:00:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:01:33 anyway, the thing that confuses me, is why compare a pointer to 0 for less than/greater than? 19:01:44 on most processors, it's exactly as efficient as the correct code that checks for equality 19:02:28 I have no idea ._. 19:02:33 I guess on some microcontrollers I've worked on, testing to see if a number is negative is more efficient than testing to see if it's zero 19:02:35 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:02:36 people write bad code :/ 19:02:36 but not testing to see if a number is positive 19:02:46 (testing for negative is testing a single bit, which is slightly easier than testing an entire byte) 19:02:59 if it's not merely stupid, it might be checking for something special - could e.g. HANDLEs have the upper bit set? 19:03:31 olsner: special pointer-like values on Windows tend to be odd 19:03:36 also executable ASLR is almost useless on i386: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/177905 19:03:38 ais523: don't most processors have a circuit that ands together every bit in the register to make zero-checking efficient 19:03:43 only 8 bits of randomness 19:03:56 because all legit int pointers on Windows are even 19:03:58 I don't know if stack ASLR is more useful; probably, since the stack top doesn't have to be page aligned 19:04:03 at least, that are used by the kernel 19:04:22 quintopia: they do, and so did this one; however, it cost more words of program to tell the microcontroller to actually use them 19:05:27 oic 19:06:06 kmc: ohhhhhhhh that's how the null pointer exploit trick works. putting the payload at 0 with mmap 19:06:15 is there some reason the OS... lets you do that? O_O 19:06:28 like why is mmap to 0 a thing 19:06:35 it doesn't anymore 19:06:36 the OS might've gotten confused and forgotten to prevent it 19:06:53 ahhh 19:06:57 Linux added sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr in like 2007 19:07:02 but it still gets set to 0 sometimes 19:07:12 how do null pointer exploits like that work now? 19:07:15 they don't 19:07:17 oh 19:07:32 but similar exploits that involve an invalid pointer that isn't NULL might work 19:07:33 but I remember there was a thing a little bit ago about a null pointer check being optimized improperly because of a thig 19:07:35 and that was an exploit? 19:08:15 Fiora: I think that was not that recent, and would only work if mmap_min_addr is set to 0 or if the kernel is vulnerable to any of numerous mmap_min_addr bypasses that have been discovered throughout the year 19:08:19 years* 19:08:34 for a while if you installed Wine on Ubuntu, it would set mmap_min_addr = 0 globally 19:08:45 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:08:45 because, like, Win16 programs need to map stuff at zero? 19:08:47 also dosemu 19:08:55 oh wow >_< 19:09:09 http://blog.cr0.org/2009/06/bypassing-linux-null-pointer.html 19:10:12 http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v2.6.30/fs/binfmt_elf.c#L976 sigh 19:10:57 Linux developers value features like "can run SVr4 binaries on Linux" over security 19:11:02 even if nobody ever does this ever 19:12:00 it "might" be a good idea to make sure that even if the user program maps something at 0 it doesn't affect the kernel 19:12:03 guh, who uses system v binaries at all 19:12:23 olsner: that's hard to do though 19:12:48 if you want userspace and kernel to have different page tables, that improves security greatly, but also greatly increases the overhead of a system call 19:12:56 on x86 anyway 19:13:06 because switching page tables involves a TLB flush 19:13:09 something about @ 19:13:34 some architectures have tagged TLBs that can hold onto entries from address spaces that are not currently in use 19:13:36 could they use VM instructions to handle that? 19:13:44 elliott, have you done any work on @ since you met me 19:13:44 Fiora: yes! I heard of someone doing that 19:13:52 don't have a link though :/ 19:13:53 so like, userspace is a """VM""" 19:13:53 Taneb: maybe 19:13:57 i have no idea 19:13:59 Taneb, i don't think he's ever done any work on @ 19:14:13 at.html 19:14:17 gosh that's. that's actually a pretty cool idea 19:14:21 "sort of work on @" 19:14:21 if you find it poke me with it, that sounds really fun 19:14:23 hm ARM has tagged TLBs, that's good 19:15:14 I think x86 also has tagged TLBs nowadays 19:15:38 it has the ability to set 'global' mappings that don't get flushed automatically 19:15:49 i don't know of anything beyond that, setting aside VMX / SVM virtualization extensions 19:16:36 "Invalidates mappings in the translation lookaside buffers (TLBs) and paging-struc-ture caches based on the invalidation type specified in the first operand andprocessor context identifier (PCID) invalidate descriptor specified in the secondoperand." 19:16:44 is a processor context identifier related to this? 19:16:47 for that matter 19:16:52 what is a processor context identifier -_- 19:16:58 hm i don't know 19:17:05 what I was thinking of was the ASID that you can set when you set the pointer to the page tables 19:17:34 http://www.realworldtech.com/westmere/ talks about it 19:17:42 so it does sound like a tagged tlb basically 19:17:44 that's cool! 19:17:50 i wonder if linux uses it 19:18:03 Fiora: have you used http://livegrep.com 19:18:29 oooh, so it's a tagged TLB thing but aimed at VMs 19:18:37 INVPCID is a new instruction in um... I think haswell? I'm not sure 19:18:48 livegrep...? what does it do 19:18:56 searches the linux kernel, really fucking fast 19:19:00 with regexes 19:19:24 haswell has a lot of interesting stuff like that it seems, like it has smep too 19:19:32 oooh. 19:19:33 what flavor of regex is this 19:19:38 .... I don't know regexes though >_< 19:20:00 http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B8%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B12%7D 19:20:28 wow 19:21:44 nice 'n' readable url 19:21:56 ye 19:21:57 readaburl 19:22:14 I stopped reading at "linux", what did I miss 19:22:38 saying anything of value maybe? 19:23:01 whoa!!!! rude 19:23:06 :( 19:23:08 thanks mnoqy 19:23:10 or should i say 19:23:13 tahnks 19:23:18 hahaha 19:23:24 > sort "thanks" 19:23:25 > sort "thanks" 19:23:27 "ahknst" 19:23:27 "ahknst" 19:23:28 noodl..... 19:23:47 if I were a haskell person we'd have been three to type that command! 19:23:56 wow elliott 19:24:12 welliott 19:24:14 > "thanks" ^. to sort 19:24:16 "ahknst" 19:24:20 how are you doing? very welliott 19:25:05 :t to 19:25:06 (Conjoined p, Gettable f) => (s -> a) -> p a (f a) -> p s (f s) 19:25:08 what's going on? not melliott 19:28:07 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 19:28:30 > ["thanks", "lens"] ^. to sort 19:28:32 ["lens","thanks"] 19:28:37 > ["thanks", "lens"] ^. traverse . to sort 19:28:39 "ahknstelns" 19:29:01 that sounds like some ancient place that should be in ruins 19:30:34 :t (^.) 19:30:35 s -> Getting a s t a b -> a 19:30:43 elliott: that's a mean thing to say about a place! 19:32:06 itt: getting a stab 19:32:56 mnoqy: it's RE2 regexes 19:33:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:33:36 kmc: you have no idea how tired i am of getting a stab jokes 19:33:40 they're as bad as burrito jokes in #haskell 19:33:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:33:46 lolol 19:35:21 no monad. radio! 19:36:52 ++ 19:38:42 -!- copumpkin has quit. 19:39:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:42:46 ++ 19:47:37 -!- surma has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:50:46 q 19:52:24 mnoqy: oh i get it 19:52:37 mnoqy: mnoqy is a variant spelling of gnocchi 19:53:30 Is that the thing with the tomato and the toast 19:53:54 Taneb I think that's a pizza 19:54:42 gnocchi mnoqy gnocchi mnoqy 19:54:47 mmm, gnocchi. mnoqy 19:54:56 bruschetta 19:56:01 gnostic monqy 19:58:07 bruschetta is good. never've had gnocchi woops. 19:58:27 gnocchi is not the same things as bruschetta mnoqy................................ 19:58:38 mnoqy: imo you can't keep this nick unless you have some gnocchi 19:58:48 that explains why i've had bruschetta but not gnocchi 19:59:05 good explanation 19:59:08 or explains how? it explains something. 19:59:33 what if we made shirts have irregular button spacing so that it was harder to miss-button them 19:59:39 but did you know the law that you're not allowed to mention bruschetta and gnocchi in the same sentence woops 19:59:58 it's an ancient italian law, now you're not allowed to go to italy ever 20:00:36 ok 20:01:05 mgnoqcchiy 20:01:17 yes 20:01:29 hey mnoqy you're the best 20:01:34 monqy++ mnoqy++ 20:01:36 thanks shachaf(???????????????????????) 20:01:59 oh no what's that thing inthe parentheses 20:02:09 question marks 20:02:36 w hy 20:03:30 thachaf 20:03:30 i dont understand why you say the thing you're saying 20:05:40 YEAH WHY DYOU EVEN BOTHER OPENING THAT MOUTH OF YOURS 20:06:01 wow mnoqy did you mean that 20:06:08 that's prttyr ude 20:07:07 i did not mean the thing that koen said 20:07:13 pls do not put words in my mouth 20:07:30 oh good 20:07:34 ciao 20:07:37 !list 20:07:37 well note that I wouldn't be able to put words in your mouth IF YOU KEPT IT SHUT 20:07:46 Koen_... stop it 20:07:58 my apologies won't happen again 20:08:00 Koen_: you're being pretty rude and making this channel worse for everyone 20:08:16 Koen_: your apologies haven't even happened once, it's not likely that they'll happen again at this rate 20:08:51 maybe I'll add an extra coma and maybe even a pronoun 20:08:54 wait, is this a serious thing 20:09:17 pff who knows 20:09:19 we just don't know 20:09:36 @hug Bike 20:09:36 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug 20:10:04 buh? 20:11:02 ye 20:11:16 hi kmc 20:11:18 `welcome kmc 20:11:20 kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:12:56 I shouldn't be allowed to program on serious things at this time at night 20:12:57 Or at all 20:13:45 yes, tired are rather we 20:14:43 I've never really understood why Europe and Asia are considered to be separate continents 20:15:21 europe is more of a peninsula hth 20:15:36 I'm pretty sure I could drive to Taneb's house from here, if I was crazy and wanted to drive forever. 20:15:47 ThatOtherPerson, I'm on an island 20:15:52 You'd have to catch a train 20:15:55 ThatOtherPerson: How far is it? 20:16:00 aw rats 20:16:15 that sounded surrealistic 20:16:23 You could probs drive to mnoqy's house 20:16:46 Taneb: oh right, you're already in GB, which is an island, even if there's a tunnel to it 20:17:59 but a drive from me to Taneb is somewhere around 6,629 km; 69 hours according to google maps 20:18:25 http://goo.gl/maps/p0gnf 20:18:49 when i was in Latvia there were signs for buses to London 20:18:52 they're pretty slow. 20:19:31 ThatOtherPerson, to drive to Finland you have to choose whether you'd rather drive through Russia or Denmark 20:20:33 I could drive to South Africa from here too... 20:20:45 ThatOtherPerson, important question 20:20:45 kmc: like through the chunnel or what 20:20:47 Can you drive 20:20:50 Yikes, the Americas are kinda lonely and off in a corner, aren't they 20:20:52 Bike: and/or boats 20:21:10 Taneb: no but that's not really a prerequisite for driving in Saudi Arabia 20:21:27 ThatOtherPerson: half the world is a pretty big corner as corners go imo 20:21:36 yeah :D 20:21:58 shachaf stole my gnocchi joke... but i didn't make it in #esoteric wow 20:22:01 of course you can't actually drive from north to south america 20:22:08 i think some of them take a boat across to sweeden 20:22:12 so it's more like two corners 20:22:15 nooodl: oh no did you make it about mnoqy 20:22:20 There' 20:22:21 yeah 20:22:25 nooodl, what's your gnocci joke 20:22:25 nooodl: was it in ##crawl 20:22:31 s like a 15 mile gap in the Trans-American Highway, right? 20:22:35 It takes me about 24 hours to get to my grandparents' house in California from my house here 20:22:37 yeah, in panama 20:22:47 my gnocchi joke is: mnoqy, gnocchi, 20:22:55 looks like ecolines runs southwest to warszawa and then west through berlin and amsterdam at crosses at calais (but maybe not on the train) 20:22:56 the jungle part specifically 20:22:57 ThatOtherPerson, it's gonna turn out your grandparents are shachaf, isn't it 20:23:07 it was in a ~secret channel~ 20:23:20 nooodl: wow, a secret???? 20:23:21 of course driving from northern colombia down to the tierra del fuego must be, uh, exciting 20:23:21 The Americas used to be connected, but some goofsters decided to cut them apart 20:23:24 not to mention the amazon 20:23:39 a man, a plan, a canal, shachaf 20:23:49 nooodl: was it in a ~secret channel~ that you and mnoqy are both in 20:23:58 pikhq_: 99 mile, apparently! 20:24:11 nooodl: what was that channel called 20:24:28 wow wait the highway doesn't even hit brazil, let alone paraguay and such 20:24:29 bullcrap 20:24:36 well it wouldn't be very ~secret~ if i told 20:24:50 DR Congo is huge 20:25:08 unofficially the trans-american highway does extend to tierra del fuego i thought 20:25:11 I guess you can probably get to most of Brazil from Buenos Aires though. 20:25:13 as in, there are roads that connect through 20:25:14 nooodl: that's ok "i don't mind" 20:25:22 kmc: Yeah, but it would be kind of a pain, I mean. 20:25:28 also north to deadhorse or whatever 20:25:31 There's a whole lot of mountains and stuff. 20:25:33 Whitehorse? 20:25:33 but not through the darién gap :) 20:25:42 uh, wherever the alaska highway ends 20:25:44 mnoqy: if shachaf asks you about secret channels forever now i'm sorry 20:25:48 oh, no, there's a place called Deadhorse, wow 20:25:58 i was thinking the capital of the northwest territories ._. 20:26:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deadhorse_Alaska_aerial_view.jpg the name seems appropriate. 20:26:21 let me take you down, 'cause i'm going to / secret channels 20:26:27 Bike, Yellowknife? 20:26:45 Whitehorse is in the Yukon 20:26:46 agh whitehorse is capital of the /yukon/ 20:26:49 canadians. fuckers 20:26:54 er, not the alaska highway, the dalton highway 20:26:58 yukon say that again!!!!!!!!!!!! 20:27:00 which has street view :) 20:27:03 shachaf: ho ho ho 20:27:43 mnoqy: so tell me about secret channels forever 20:28:29 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/PanAmericanHwy.png 20:28:32 shachaf: probably it'd get old pretty quickly 20:29:01 mnoqy: ok so just tell me 20:29:15 Des Moines doesn't merit a dot on this map :( 20:29:27 kmc: "yeah, i'm takin' a vacation down in el salvador" "oh, going through denver or minneanapolis?" 20:29:32 yep 20:29:49 i can tell people I grew up by the pan-amerigan highway 20:29:51 sounds so cool 20:30:36 pan-amereegan 20:30:45 oh the transsiberian highway is fully connected 20:30:53 way to drop theh ball americas 20:32:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0_%22%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%22,_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%A2%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0.jpg very modern looking 20:32:13 great url 20:32:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:32:42 kmc: what do you think about the ""transcontinental railroad"" 20:32:47 great url. 20:32:55 imo that url is missing a crucial letter just saying 20:33:03 shachaf: in US? don't know where it is 20:33:06 probably p. in favor tho 20:33:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad that's a long intro section........ 20:33:42 It's not around anymore, is it? 20:33:50 I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad 20:33:53 9289 km. that's p. long 20:33:59 i don't know, isn't some of the right of way still in use? 20:34:08 "hundreds of miles are still in service today, especially through the Sierra Nevada Mountains and canyons in Utah and Wyoming. While the original rail has long since been replaced because of age and wear, and the roadbed upgraded and repaired, the lines generally run on top of the original, handmade grade." 20:34:14 that intro is way too long 20:38:30 hmm do they still have rail barons today 20:38:35 kmc should be a rail baron imo 20:38:51 they don't have 20:39:13 i should move to central asia and become a pipeline baron 20:39:41 oerjan: they're talking about you oerjan 20:39:46 13:39 applicative, ski: equivalent doesn't mean equally useful. Twan's version keeps the 'next' 'f' in the free applicative that you need for interpretation exposed without recursion. Oerjan's requires you to walk uselessly over n levels to get to it. 20:39:50 etc. 20:40:25 kmc: do it 20:41:55 kmc: we already have like thousands of oil princes over here 20:42:14 they're literal princes though. it's just not the same 20:42:23 There might not be an opening for an pipeline baron 20:42:24 is that like #haskell and all the "project oiler" people 20:42:45 also is saudi arabia considered part of central asia now because i thought it was pretty far west 20:42:51 ThatOtherPerson, barons are pretty low on the nobility thingy 20:43:04 So they can be subordinate to oil princes 20:43:12 Bike, it's nowhere near central asia 20:43:16 god geopolitics terms make no fucking sense 20:43:28 Well, there's a totally different nobility thingy here 20:43:31 the "middle east" is west/south of "central asia" 20:43:34 that's fine because geopolitics also makes no fucking sense 20:43:38 It's all very tribal 20:43:40 fair enough 20:44:09 i like that the premier theory of international relations is based on the suspposition that it's all anarchic nonsense 20:44:25 which theory is that? 20:44:31 realism 20:44:50 'anarchy' being the really used term, 'nonsense' not so much but i was Humorously Exaggerating 20:45:43 Bike we have a No Humor policy here 20:45:59 kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_international_relations 20:46:02 kmc: How does Cygwin fork(), anyway? 20:46:06 poorly? 20:46:08 i don't know :( 20:46:22 Well, other than that. 20:46:29 It can't be that poor because it seems to work. 20:46:30 magic 20:46:40 But Win32 doesn't give you anything like that, does it? 20:47:01 Win32 is extremely confusing and should not be touched, iirc 20:47:19 cygwin is like a dancing bear 20:47:44 shachaf: http://cygwin.com/faq/faq.api.html#faq.api.fork 20:48:05 O_o 20:48:49 shachaf: basically, it goes through a lot of effort, calling a whole bunch of windows API functions, and somehow manages to replicate UNIX fork functionality 20:48:51 oh 20:49:04 fun 20:49:06 so it just cheats 20:49:20 imo cygwin more like badideawin 20:49:26 cyg.win++ 20:49:36 if JOS can implement copy-on-write fork in userspace then why not cygwin :( :( 20:54:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:57:13 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:59:45 shachaf: hm so (re #mosh) it might rely on the fact that every DLL is mapped at the same address in every process 20:59:56 which I think is mostly true in Windows? 21:04:31 I thought it was a different address in every process but the same address between runs of the same process or something like that. 21:04:52 yeah maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position-independent_code#Windows_DLLs 21:05:21 At any rate I heard that ASLR is done once per boot or something like that. 21:05:30 yeah 21:05:40 DLLs are not position-independent code; they get relocated on load 21:05:57 Oh, maybe I'm wrong on the first part. 21:06:06 OK. 21:07:14 -!- augur has joined. 21:07:58 (back later) 21:11:29 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:14:58 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 21:19:50 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 21:23:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:25:00 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 21:25:01 oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 21:25:04 I KNOW THAT 21:25:08 oh message 21:25:15 @messages 21:25:16 ais523 said 2h 40m 53s ago: good catch, I indeed missed it 21:26:02 shachaf: in fact i really knew it before that recent blog summary post about different versions. 21:27:26 but somehow i got caught up by the immediate praise anyhow. 21:28:45 oerjan: I wasn't saying you don't know it, I was saying #haskell was talking about you. 21:29:26 ah. 21:30:34 imo unswat me 21:30:48 sorry, second law of thermodynamics 21:31:29 every swat has an equal and opposite unswat? 21:31:36 you can remind me next time you do something bad, and we'll leave one out, ok? 21:31:48 How about I do something bad now? 21:31:59 olsner: you are confusing with newton's laws 21:32:13 shachaf: well if you _want_ to use it up already... 21:32:38 `run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i s/dal/dahl/g "$f"; done 21:33:18 how _does_ one refrain from swatting with an extra space prepended again. 21:33:34 ? 21:35:10 * oerjan refuses to believe shachaf is that absent-minded. 21:35:25 The space was on purpose, of course. 21:35:32 I just am not managing to parse your sentence. 21:35:38 ah. 21:36:47 (how does one refraing (from (swatting (with ((an extra space) prepended)))) again. 21:36:54 *). 21:37:01 *refrain 21:37:33 actually 21:37:36 I don't get it. 21:37:38 :-( 21:37:39 `run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i s/dal/dahl/g "$f"; done 21:37:50 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:37:54 (how does one refraing (from swatting) (with ((an extra space) prepended))) again). also works. 21:37:58 *refrain 21:38:48 it's really bad that you don't get it. i may have to refrain from swatting you for it. 21:39:54 `? oerjan 21:39:56 Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian. 21:41:06 `run sed -i 's/$/ And hates Roald Dahl./' wisdom/oerjan 21:41:09 No output. 21:41:36 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:41:39 -!- mnoqy has joined. 21:41:57 WEST and EEST <-- eesti vabarik 21:42:31 shachaf: hey i'm supposed to be the one lying here 21:43:25 `run sed -i 's/\. And/ who/' wisdom/oerjan 21:43:28 No output. 21:43:46 -!- augur has joined. 21:44:12 `? oerjan 21:44:14 Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. 21:44:47 I am thinking of some programming language similar to Lisp using () and so on, as well as {} for quotationed blocks and [] for an alternate syntax and so on, but the program includes the commands to change the program to become the answer, and then it is further compiled into an assembly language, which might also have its own macros, too. 21:44:48 * oerjan invites a giant (not BFG) to shachaf's home 21:45:23 Is your home big enough for any giant? 21:45:34 zzo38: That sounds good. 21:45:46 zzo38: the giant doesn't need to enter 21:46:23 oerjan: O, OK. If you just need to throw stuff in the chimney then it is OK 21:46:40 zzo38: No, the giant reaches in the window and takes you out and eats you. 21:46:48 zzo38: i think you may not be familiar with the roald dahl type of giant. 21:46:59 oerjan: In Hebrew the BFG was called the Ig. 21:47:26 SVK in norwegian. 21:47:27 shachaf: O, well, then their hand has to fit in the window, and it has to be open unless you want the window also broken... 21:47:57 I don't think they care. 21:48:42 If reality is a simulation, are we players or NPCs 21:48:42 Yes, also if you don't care if it is broken or not. 21:48:59 shachaf: well they're pretty big on not leaving conclusive evidence... 21:49:00 GOMADWarrior: That is the question. Nobody knows. 21:49:24 GOMADWarrior: some of each. 21:49:26 oerjan: well they're pretty big on everything 21:49:29 oerjan: they're giants 21:49:32 oerjan: hth 21:50:02 shachaf: which thatsthejoke link do you prefer hth 21:50:58 oerjan: what if the joke is that i was explaining the joke 21:52:37 shachaf: then i link http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke and who wants that? 21:53:02 um explaining the joke is a time honoured tradition 21:53:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:55:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:02:42 and fix the irc rfc to allow more chars <-- um HackEgo cuts off _far_ shorter than irc demands iirc 22:03:58 `run yes | nl 22:04:00 ​ 1y \ 2y \ 3y \ 4y \ 5y \ 6y \ 7y \ 8y \ 9y \ 10y \ 11y \ 12y \ 13y \ 14y \ 15y \ 16y \ 17y \ 18y \ 19y \ 20y \ 21y \ 22y \ 23y \ 24y \ 25y \ 26y \ 27y \ 28y \ 29y \ 30y \ 31y \ 32 22:04:03 wat 22:04:16 who the heck wants tabs 22:05:12 `run ghc -e 'cycle ['0'..'9']' 22:05:19 ​[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2, 22:05:37 wat 22:05:57 that is not how you print String, HackEgo 22:06:18 > cycle ['0'..'9'] 22:06:19 "01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123... 22:06:28 how mysterious.. 22:06:34 it's just a ' issue 22:06:44 `run ghc -e "cycle ['0'..'9']" 22:06:44 `run ghc -e "cycle ['0'..'9']" 22:06:49 ​"0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345 22:06:49 ​"0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345 22:07:19 > 5*80+20+5 22:07:21 425 22:07:24 wat 22:07:33 oh wait it's 4 not 5 22:07:39 > 4*80+20+5 22:07:41 oh my god, operator precedence 22:07:41 345 22:08:01 > length "\"0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345" 22:08:04 347 22:08:06 Bike: um problem? 22:09:13 Bike: i hope you're not referring to anything done above 22:09:31 hope is a good thing to have 22:10:35 `run file `which yes` 22:10:36 ​/usr/bin/yes: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped 22:11:00 optimized 22:11:25 `run ls -l /usr/bin/yes 22:11:27 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 27456 Apr 28 2010 /usr/bin/yes 22:11:35 16:03:09: Is putting large chunks of butter on my bagels a bad idea? 22:11:35 16:03:53: Define "large" 22:11:35 16:04:04: THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL 22:11:48 don't use butter straight out of the fridge hth 22:11:53 I have a 408 byte yes but I didn't really spend any time making it small, other than writing it with no libc etc. 22:12:18 ok i think i am now legitimately scared by gangnam style 22:12:28 @tell Taneb THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL <-- don't use butter straight out of the fridge hth 22:12:29 Consider it noted. 22:12:54 The butter is in a tub of butter that people take out with a knife 22:13:02 Alongside cream cheese and other stuff 22:13:10 some kind of communal butter tu--- EEEW 22:13:15 what the FUCK sgeo 22:14:02 Um. People don't start eating the bagels before they use it 22:14:21 tu-++ 22:14:25 _polite_ people. 22:14:31 why would you keep your cheese and butter in the same tub do you not have two tubs what is wrong with you 22:14:45 you don't want to think about what impolite people do. 22:15:22 There are separate tubs that are next to each other. 22:15:29 oh 22:16:17 Butter is free, cream cheese is not. I think cashier thinks I'm trying to cheat... she keeps asking if it's cream cheese and I say butter 22:16:49 sounds tense 22:16:50 i scream you scream cheese 22:24:37 -!- dysoco has joined. 22:29:40 `run echo -e '\x7fELF\x02\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0>\0\x01\0\0\0x\0@\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xb0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\08\0\x01\0@\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\x9a\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x9a\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0 \0\0\0\0\0H\xc7\xc7\x01\0\0\0H\xc7\xc6\x98\0@\0H\xc7\xc2\x02\0\0\0H\xc7\xc0\x01\0\0\0\x0f\x05\xeb\xf5y' > bin/y && chmod +x bin/y 22:29:43 No output. 22:29:51 `y 22:29:53 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 22:31:10 inb4 kmc "too many badchars" 22:31:24 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:31:43 is that a muppetlabs program 22:31:54 gcc 22:32:10 -!- DH____ has joined. 22:32:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:32:21 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:36:59 Also why are amd64 instructions so long 22:37:26 They added way too many registers 22:42:57 in this case they're long because someone failed to use shorter equivalent instructions 22:43:44 `run ls -l y 22:43:46 ls: cannot access y: No such file or directory 22:43:47 -!- augur has joined. 22:43:53 `run ls -l bin/y 22:43:54 ​-rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 154 Apr 13 22:29 bin/y 22:43:56 Jafet++ 22:44:17 `y hello 22:44:18 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 22:44:21 :-( 22:44:26 That doesn't count. 22:46:54 Fine 22:48:31 hm Olivia Colman was in Look Around You as well 22:48:37 there are only like 12 british actors aren't there 22:52:30 well there are serious ones as well but they mostly just do soaps 22:53:15 also there are actrs but they just perform on stage and hollywood films 22:55:17 At least one British actor I know of did stuff in a TV show after doing stuff in a Hollywood film 22:55:38 Oh, he's Scottish 22:55:53 sgeo 22:55:58 great british venn diagram 22:56:54 Ok, so he is British. 22:57:16 i keep forgetting the venn diagram 22:58:16 Sgeo: let me guess. david tennant 22:58:24 Yes. 22:58:32 `cat bin\y 22:58:33 cat: bin\y: No such file or directory 22:58:43 "the only scottish actor" 22:58:49 hey now 22:58:53 what about robbie coltrane 22:59:22 even Phantom_Hoover doesn't include sean connery, i see 22:59:31 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:59:41 well where does he live these days 22:59:54 good question 23:01:07 "Sean Connery has a villa in Kranidi, Greece. His neighbour is the Dutch crown-prince with whom he shares a helicopter platform." 23:01:39 there's a real sense of community in illionaire villas 23:01:48 "Connery swore never to return to live in Scotland unless it becomes an independent state,." 23:02:08 oh i thought he was in tax exile 23:02:21 there's something about that too 23:03:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlEFfyf79DM 23:03:27 (Harry Potter book 4 spoilers) 23:03:27 perhaps he simply assumed scotland would never become independent 23:03:33 i see the great british venn diagram's accompanying article doesn't mention that 'scotch' is The Wrong Demonym 23:03:47 Sgeo: is that the one where dumbledore dies? 23:04:26 olsner: he supports the scottish national party. although he's no longer allowed to give them money because they passed a law against foreign contributions. 23:05:43 oh, hey, it's david tennant. 23:08:47 there should also be a venn diagram for New York City, Manhattan (borough), Manhattan (island), Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens, etc 23:10:00 the difference between those seems pretty unimportant 23:10:16 MAYBE SCOTLAND IS ALSO UNIMPORTANT 23:10:31 "maybe" 23:10:52 it's confusing when people use "Long Island" to mean "the parts of Long Island that aren't in NYC" 23:11:14 kmc, well was manhattan ever INVADED BY BROOKLYN AND REPRESSED 23:11:31 the differences between Manhattan the island and the political entity are more trivia than important 23:11:46 Phantom_Hoover: insert joke about hipsters 23:13:07 also Ellis Island is split between new jersey and new york in some kind of complicated arrangement 23:13:44 kmc: btw guess who said this (i saw it and thought of you) 23:13:48 through a complicated legal loophole, coney island turns out to still be owned by the royal dutch 23:13:49 uh oh 23:13:50 "One advantage startups have over established companies is that there are no discrimination laws about starting businesses. For example, I would be reluctant to start a startup with a woman who had small children, or was likely to have them soon. 23:13:54 But you're not allowed to ask prospective employees if they plan to have kids soon. Believe it or not, under current US law, you're not even allowed to discriminate on the basis of intelligence. 23:13:58 Whereas when you're starting a company, you can discriminate on any basis you want about who you start it with." 23:14:01 (note: this challenge is easy) 23:14:10 elliott: Some Asshole 23:14:12 did i win 23:14:12 wait who said this 23:14:14 kmc: paul graham 23:14:14 believe it or not, 23:14:18 really? 23:14:19 well 23:14:19 yes 23:14:21 sigh 23:14:22 http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html 23:14:26 well now 23:14:27 my first guess was esr (fuck that guy) 23:14:27 i didn't think he was quite like that 23:14:32 my guess was peter thiel 23:14:38 peace be upon fuck that guy 23:14:40 not sure esr is quite a "startup guy" 23:14:56 i didn't say it was a good guess! also fuck that guy 23:15:00 it's not clear without context that pg is saying this is a good thing, but he probably is 23:15:09 people talked about paul graham in #lisp again today. i'm so glad i have the ability to zone out 23:15:16 well it is a footnote to 23:15:17 Like most startups, ours began with a group of friends, and it was through personal contacts that we got most of the people we hired. This is a crucial difference between startups and big companies. Being friends with someone for even a couple days will tell you more than companies could ever learn in interviews. [2] 23:15:29 yeah 23:15:31 and the whole article is about startups being great obviously 23:15:43 -!- dysoco has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:15:45 that's a p. cool way for a bunch of college educated white guys to hire a bunch of other white guys who went to the same college 23:16:19 i'm gonna go see what he thinks of affirmative action, wish me luck 23:16:55 also "you're not even allowed to discriminate on the basis of intelligence" is a big fucking [citation needed] 23:17:16 hm, no mention of "affirmative" or "action", thank god 23:17:21 i would believe that discriminating against certain kinds of cognitive disabilities could get you in trouble 23:17:22 please tell me he's not conflating 'intelligence' with IQ 23:17:25 but 23:17:57 whatever he means it's dumb, so 23:18:11 I had a mutual friend with the guy who hired me. It makes me feel awkward that that sort of thing is important 23:18:12 « "Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?". National Geographic News.» why did i google this 23:18:30 why indeed 23:18:35 if it makes you feel better that's pretty universal, sgeo 23:18:50 Phantom_Hoover: hard to equate "intelligence" with anything meaningful 23:18:54 (was that written by PG) 23:19:01 i'm pretty sure it doesn't actually mean anything 23:19:24 human universals are pretty lol in general but "people like people people like" and "people are more likely to want to perform activities with someone they like" probably are 23:19:33 oh well 23:19:38 -!- carado has joined. 23:19:41 * kmc feels remaining respect for Paul Graham vanish 23:19:54 what has he ever even done 23:20:03 kmc: says mr startup 23:20:06 uh excuse you phantom he wrote a /webstore/ 23:20:08 in lisp!! 23:20:24 i like how he is sort of a lisp pariah 23:20:29 because nobody likes his book 23:20:37 noobs do 23:20:47 he wrote a book? what is it about? 23:20:48 unfortunately 23:20:56 lisp presumably 23:21:02 elliott: actually i left my startup job just last week 23:21:04 he wrote ANSI Common Lisp which is a pretty... something, intro to programming in CL 23:21:20 he wrote On Lisp 23:21:29 This is your brain on Lisp 23:21:31 whatever it's called 23:21:33 which is kind of insane 23:21:34 Why do all the big CL authors do things that the community recommends against 23:21:46 they do? 23:21:48 he uses macros for /everything/ 23:21:54 want to map a function over a list? WHY NOT A MACRO? 23:21:59 Lambda Over Lisp hates earmuffs, there are some quabbles about PG's stuff in On Lisp (not sure what) 23:22:00 possibly due to the tendency to have Big Authors 23:22:01 basically. 23:22:03 kmc: aw, that sucks 23:22:08 kmc: unless you left it because you found a better job 23:22:10 Sgeo: the lisp community might just be crazy and not make good recommendations 23:22:11 erm, Let over Lambda 23:22:11 in which congratulations 23:22:23 earmuffs are a good recommendation, I think. 23:22:28 `slist 23:22:29 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 23:22:38 Sgeo: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html if you want to see it in mind numbing detail 23:23:19 but i don't think xach or gigamonkeys write particularly insane code, i dunno 23:23:54 * Sgeo only had PG and LoL in mind 23:24:21 i haven't read lol. reading is for squares 23:24:24 elliott: not yet 23:24:30 but I wasn't particularly enjoying my old job 23:24:54 are you telling me rewriting irc as a web app isn't exciting 23:24:58 we never would have guessed 23:24:58 ok i shouldn't be a jerk about this 23:24:58 there were a few things that were really annoying (like, one of my coworkers) and the rest of it was fine, but nothing super awesome to keep me going through the annoyances 23:24:59 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 23:25:02 haha 23:25:32 i sure hate $kmcs_coworker, they are the worst 23:25:49 if given the opportunity to work with someone you know is annoying because they might have changed: they haven't and you shouldn't 23:26:29 it sucks because i really liked the rest of the people 23:26:35 that was the main reason I was interested in working there 23:26:40 o well 23:26:41 what was the problem with this person? 23:26:44 just general annoyingness? 23:27:06 Bike: they were a bicycle 23:27:51 uh are you implying something 23:27:55 something... bikist 23:28:06 hmm, sounds like the annoying one should've been the one to leave rather than you 23:28:19 but that's their problem now :) 23:28:54 yeah 23:29:00 shrug 23:29:28 he's the annoying one but i'm the one who had trouble dealing with it, while he remained cheerful and productive through being annoying 23:30:54 kmc: come join me :D 23:30:57 Bike: if you have an association with the word "froshy" then it probably describes this person 23:31:25 someone who thinks they're hot shit because they were the smartest person around in high school, and who dropped out after one year of college at a mediocre school 23:31:36 >_< 23:31:37 and yet actually doesn't produce very good code 23:33:10 and communicates poorly 23:33:11 oh well 23:35:17 « "Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?". National Geographic News.» why did i google this <-- i've heard that theory before and it actually seemed plausible. 23:35:42 http://www.amazon.com/review/RN9XMF3CS1YPS nice 23:35:54 oerjan: it sounds very evopsychy 23:35:56 it certainly had a huge effect on cultural values, if not biology 23:36:30 oerjan, not hard to come up with a theory that seems plausible 23:37:40 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:42:02 Bike: well racism and eugenics aside (am i being stereotypical?) you wouldn't expect psychology to be _unaffected_ by evolution caused by selection. 23:43:11 of course not, but evolutionary psychology has a long history of being made-up racist shit, so i'm strongly inclined to dismiss it, unfortunately 23:43:13 but i guess there's still that nature/nurture questino. 23:43:19 *on 23:47:13 oerjan, that's all true but that doesn't mean 'property x is caused by evolutionary factor y' is actually /correct/ 23:47:33 yeah, presumably some evo psych theories are actually correct, but it's just way too easy to come up with one to justify whatever crazy bullshit you like 23:47:36 and way too hard to test them 23:48:03 -!- itsy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:19 the classic example is the assignent of pink to females; you can say it's because berries are red and hunter gatherers and all that, and it sounds plausible 23:48:33 except a century or so ago pink was a masculine colour and so it all goes to shit 23:48:51 yeah 23:49:13 oh if we're hating on evopsych now i want to mention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kanazawa 23:49:24 did you know you can actually be fired from psychology today? weird huh 23:49:27 Phantom_Hoover: actually the "pink was a masculine colour" is itself a myth hth 23:49:34 "Kanazawa has been very controversial, which he attributes to what he considers political correctness." 23:49:37 I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE 23:49:42 oerjan, IT'S MYTHS ALL THE WAY DOWN 23:49:55 guys why the lucky stiff updated his site again!!!!!! 23:49:56 NOTHING IS TRUE 23:50:00 EVERYTHING IS PERMITTED 23:50:02 http://www.gironda.org/pcl/SOLICIT.png 23:50:02 cite [5] there by other evolutionary psychologists (i.e. ones that aren't racists) is pretty great and worth a read 23:50:10 ^^^ very excellent 23:50:17 also he's into ocaml now??? http://www.scribd.com/doc/135658986/-why-Homework 23:50:19 WHY HATH RISEN ALL WILL BE UNMADE 23:50:24 (am i violating that list linked in the logs every time i say "actually"?) 23:50:24 MORE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5541880 23:50:30 elliott: what is this 23:50:39 kmc: why the lucky stiff's website came back up a few months 23:50:42 as a public printer spool 23:50:46 http://whytheluckystiff.net/ 23:50:53 oh 23:50:56 its contents have been changing since 23:50:59 well they stopped 23:51:00 for months 23:51:04 but they changed a bit to start with 23:51:14 (last picture before these: http://www.scribd.com/doc/135635255/desolee) 23:52:29 `run echo -e '\x7fELF\x02\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0>\0\x01\0\0\0x\0@\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xc8\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\08\0\x01\0@\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\xb6\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xb6\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0 \0\0\0\0\0H\xc7\xc7\x01\0\0\0H\x8bt$\x10H\x85\xf6u\x0dH\xc7\xc6\xb4\0@\0H\x8dW\x01\xeb\x17H\x89\xf2\xeb\x03H\xff\xc2\x8a\x0a\x84\xc9u\xf7\xc6\x02\x0aH\xff\xc2H)\xf2H\x89\xf8\x0f\x05\xeb\xf9y\x0a' > b 23:52:32 No output. 23:52:43 `run chmod +x bin/y && y yyy 23:52:45 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 23:52:54 hacked by Jafet 23:53:09 this channel was so much better when cpressey was in it 23:53:09 -!- Jafet has left. 23:53:12 now nobody appreciates why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 23:53:13 -!- Jafet has joined. 23:53:27 4od doesn't have the armando ianucci shows ALL IS DARKNESS ALL IS DEATH 23:53:28 Hmm 23:53:34 `run echo 'const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };' > maze.c && gcc -nostdlib -o maze maze.c && ./maze 23:53:40 ​/usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000000000040010c \ bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./maze 23:53:41 Phantom_Hoover: :( 23:53:46 `run mv bin/{y,yyy} && yyy 23:53:47 what's 4od 23:53:49 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 23:53:57 it's channel 4's on-demand thing 23:53:58 also Veep starts up again tomorrow 23:54:01 This machine must have different stack layout 23:54:09 `rm bin/yyy 23:54:10 Jafet: what does your thing do? 23:54:12 No output. 23:54:18 we have a different one for every channel because of socialism i guess 23:54:20 relevant cpressey on the github account the site is hosted on: https://github.com/cwales/cwales.github.com/issues/1 23:54:21 i would kill for hulu 23:54:23 `yes 23:54:24 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 23:54:26 HackEgo is User Mode Linux which is all crazy 23:54:41 Phantom_Hoover: you don't need to kill you just need to get a VPS with an american IP address 23:54:52 maybe EC2 is good enough, you can get a free EC2 instance for a year 23:54:55 Jafet: your initial command got cut off at the b 23:54:59 can i get that by killing someone 23:55:05 probably 23:55:16 `run mv b bin/y && chmod +x bin/y 23:55:18 they're also all on youtube anyway 23:55:19 No output. 23:55:23 god bless you kmtkmy 23:55:23 cool 23:55:24 `y yyy 23:55:26 yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yy 23:56:24 `run which gccrun 23:56:26 No output. 23:56:41 `run curl -o bin/gccrun http://web.mit.edu/snippets/programming/gccrun && chmod +x bin/gccrun 23:56:45 No output. 23:56:58 `gccrun printf("Hello, world!\n"); 23:57:00 ​/hackenv/bin/gccrun: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `<' \ /hackenv/bin/gccrun: line 1: ` ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved