00:01:35 <Sgeo> o.O http://yourfaveisproblematic.tumblr.com/post/47389305425/steven-moffat
00:03:05 <Fiora> yeah, he's kind of a douche :/
00:04:58 <Bike> oh thank god, that's not about the other thing.
00:08:12 <Bike> sexists are hard to stomach, yes
00:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> publicly shaming people as 'sexists' is... actually kind of hypocritical?
00:09:09 <Fiora> how... how is that hypocritical?
00:09:20 <Fiora> if someone publicly acts like an asshole, you're allowed to comment on it
00:10:03 <Phantom_Hoover> because if you're going to say that misogyny etc. are societally ingrained structures then you can't really go around making individual moral judgements about it
00:10:28 <Fiora> that doesn't even make any sense
00:10:41 <Bike> 'well, the nazis were a social structure, no individual germans were racist'
00:10:52 <Bike> no you are not
00:11:16 <Bike> and don't put 'sexist' in quotes, come on, he hired a chick based on her looks and bragged about it
00:11:26 <Fiora> just because a lot of people are jerks doesn't absolve jerks of being jerks
00:11:29 <Sgeo> If people 150 years ago were racist, would you say that each individual person had moral failings, if it was common at the time
00:11:35 <Sgeo> I think is what Phantom_Hoover is trying to express
00:11:48 <Bike> i would, generally
00:11:56 <Fiora> people were racist 150 years ago, and people 150 years ago called them out on their racism, just like they do today
00:11:59 <Bike> besides, it doesn't even say 'moffat is sexist'
00:12:02 <Bike> it's just a list of shitty things
00:12:04 <Fiora> it just literally lists
00:12:25 <kmc> you don't have to think of it as an individual moral judgement, but we all have a responsibility to strive to be better than the shitty things we've inherited from society
00:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the problem is that when you call most people sexist they react by mentally comparing it to this mental image of, like, some slavering, wantonly misogynistic old man
00:12:39 <Fiora> they're not even calling him sexist
00:12:44 <Bike> that's a problem, yes
00:12:52 <kmc> i'm trying to cultivate the skill of calling people out on things in a friendly way which doesn't suggest they meant to be malicious
00:12:53 <Bike> i don't know what that has to do with anything though
00:12:56 <kmc> and I hope people will do the same to me
00:13:17 <Fiora> I think you're projecting
00:13:20 <Bike> ok but it's just a list, phantom.
00:13:32 <kmc> it really sucks that the discourse always jumps from "hey that was bad and you shouldn't say it next time" to "YOU'RE HITLER AND YOU WANT TO KILL ALL WOMEN"
00:13:42 <Fiora> the site is making no moral judgements at all, it's literally a list of bad things a person did, not saying anything about the person, other than that "they did these bad things"
00:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> most people don't think they're a bad person, and most people aren't bad people
00:13:52 <Fiora> I think you're the one making the moral judgements, not the site
00:13:58 <Bike> yes. what does that have to do with anything, phantom.
00:14:31 <kmc> people get reeeeeeeealy defensive though
00:14:41 <kmc> it's really hard to say "oh, shit, that was bad and I'm sorry"
00:14:43 <kmc> in a way that's genuine
00:14:48 <Fiora> I don't understand that at all
00:14:54 <Fiora> like if I accidentally said something that was bigoted
00:14:57 <Fiora> and someone said "oh that's bad"
00:15:03 <Fiora> I'm like "sorry, I didn't know, thanks for pointing it out!"
00:15:17 <Fiora> and I've done this probably hundreds of times in my life because this is like... normal?
00:15:24 <Fiora> but for some reason white dudes are super super defensive about it
00:15:25 <kmc> when I was growing up I learned that sexism and racism were the domain of a small group of Very Bad People and the solution is to ostracize them as strongly as possible
00:15:36 <kmc> which is basically completely the wrong way to look at it
00:15:41 <kmc> but that contributes to people being defensive
00:15:42 <Bike> it's hard to get over that view >_>
00:15:43 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, but that's because you've had time to acclimate yourself to the idea thaat it's not a personal moral judgement
00:16:01 <kmc> maybe we just need new words, actually I think "problematic" is a pretty good one
00:16:08 <kmc> it doesn't imply intent
00:16:09 <Fiora> but when was it ever? like I don't get it
00:16:10 <Bike> phantom, does what you're saying have anything to do with the site now.
00:16:11 <Phantom_Hoover> most people look at it the way kmc just mentioned, and that is the way our culture definitely portrays it
00:16:19 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: isn't it super convenient too
00:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, if i say no will you let the discussion run its course
00:16:26 <kmc> for the majority of people who don't need to examine their own attitudes
00:16:33 <kmc> "well i don't wear a white hood and burn crosses, I must not be racist"
00:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> like, i saw this discussion elsewhere over the use of the word bitch
00:16:49 <Bike> but i mean hey, we all just agreed that's a silly view and moffat can be bad without being a nazi
00:18:01 <shachaf> kmc: burning crosses is religionist hth
00:18:25 * shachaf thinks religionism is a lot more reasonable than racism, too, though burning crosses probably wouldn't accomplish much
00:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> and the guy saying it was... well, problematic, was having a really hard time of trying to get across that no, he wasn't saying that you personally were telling that woman to get into the kitchen and/or get raped
00:18:29 <Bike> burn a star and crescent every once in a while, bigots!!
00:18:43 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: how about just "don't use slurs"?
00:18:49 <Fiora> it's not super hard
00:18:56 <kmc> Bike: there was that guy in florida who wanted to burn a koran, I think he was the most successful troll of the past few years
00:19:11 <Bike> he was a pastor, right? also didn't he actually go through with it
00:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, so are you just going to be like this throughout the discussion
00:20:00 <Fiora> ummm I'm not sure what there is to discuss
00:20:29 <Fiora> like. as far as I can tell the only other position here is "awww the poor feelings of racists, how terrible it is that they have to be called racist, that must be horrible"
00:20:45 <Phantom_Hoover> welp, you've clearly ignored everything i (and kmc!) have said
00:20:57 <Bike> don't be like that, dude.
00:21:04 <kmc> i think Fiora and I agree...
00:21:10 <Fiora> yeah... are you... even reading...?
00:21:11 <kmc> that was my impression anyway
00:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> when I was growing up I learned that sexism and racism were the domain of a small group of Very Bad People and the solution is to ostracize them as strongly as possible
00:21:30 <Fiora> well you are like trying to argue that we shouldn't call people racists because it ~hurts their feelings~
00:21:32 <Bike> well, don't be a jerk about disagreeing, then
00:21:36 <Bike> about agreeing
00:21:52 <Fiora> and like. well mayyyybe if they didn't want to be called racist they shouldn't be racist?
00:22:05 <kmc> I'm not saying we need nuance in order to protect the feelings of racists! i'm saying we need it for constructive dialogue
00:22:25 * shachaf 's Internet connection disconnects for a few mintues every few minutes.
00:22:27 <kmc> then I think we all agree and you are being hostile to Fiora for no reason?
00:22:52 <Bike> shachaf: imo internet is actually impossible and it's finally catching up to us
00:23:10 <Fiora> I don't think there's much of a point to dialogue, if someone wants to feel a specific way they will come up with endless reams of nonsensical logic to justify their bigotry
00:23:48 <Fiora> if someone is forced to face the consequences of their actions, they're more likely to maybe consider that they could be wrong
00:24:13 <kmc> Fiora: oh, well I disagree with that
00:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the point here is why they consider justifying their bigotry is necessary
00:24:23 <kmc> i think most people aren't malicious and don't want to hurt others
00:24:24 <Fiora> (or I guess I'd say "dialogue helps sometimes, but is often totally useless"?)
00:24:29 <kmc> they just don't understand what is or isn't hurtful
00:24:34 <kmc> i know this has been the case with myself
00:24:39 <kmc> i see things a lot differently now than I used to
00:24:51 <Fiora> I don't think people are malicious, they just /don't care/
00:24:58 <Fiora> which I guess is in itself a form of malice
00:25:01 <kmc> there's some of each yeah
00:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> and that that is, at least in part, because the way we all talk about and understand racism etc. is one of "if you are A Bigot you are A Bad Person and must get down on your knees and beg for forgiveness"
00:25:22 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: or you just say "oops, my bad, thanks for telling me"
00:25:26 <shachaf> Dividing people into "racist peron" and "non-racist person" isn't useful.
00:25:29 <kmc> part of the dialogue is about making them care by showing that the people who have been hurt are real people with valid complaints
00:25:33 <Fiora> like there are plenty of examples of that happening all over the place
00:25:38 <Fiora> famous person says something bigoted
00:25:42 <Fiora> fans say "dude that was wrong"
00:25:50 <Fiora> and amazingly, they come out and say "oh, sorry, my fault, thanks for telling me"
00:25:53 <Fiora> and that's... that's it
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00:26:04 <Fiora> but for each one of those there's the "I'm sorry you were offended~~~~" crowd
00:26:07 <kmc> Fiora: isn't that the "dialogue" that youwere saying was useless?
00:26:08 <Bike> i think phantom meant to talk about the common but wrong perception of what has to happen.
00:26:19 <Fiora> kmc: sorry, I clarified, that dialogue is useful -sometimes-
00:26:21 <kmc> i dunno, this is all getting hopelessly muddled
00:26:25 <Fiora> but a lot of the time it gets nowhere
00:26:33 <Fiora> like, some dialogue is useful but it's not always the answer? sorry
00:26:34 <Fiora> I'm really not clear
00:26:36 <Fiora> and should just stop
00:26:37 <kmc> sort it all out amongst yourselves, I expect a full solution to racism by 9am tomorrow
00:26:56 <Fiora> but basically just saying "you have to talk to the racists!!!" gets old after years and years of absolutelynothinghappening
00:27:03 <Fiora> oh god the tone policing :/
00:27:21 <Fiora> "you're not being nice enough about telling someone they were an asshole :("
00:27:54 <Fiora> and maybe there's a point to it but when someone doesn't listen to niceness more niceness is probably not going to get the message across
00:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> this isn't even about niceness where are you getting that from
00:28:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it was an attempt at a solution to unconscious bias in hiring
00:28:16 <Fiora> ... wasn't that... the entirety of what you were saying
00:28:27 <Fiora> then what are you even saying O_O
00:28:40 <Bike> may i suggest that everybody is talking around each other and it may be pointless to continue.
00:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> the point was in being more aware of how people react to questioning of their moral character
00:29:11 <Fiora> if someone cares more about their own ego than the feelings of others, asking them nicely is not going to work
00:30:21 <Fiora> also, often they don't care about the feelings of others /because they're racist/, like, do you expect the people complaining about "dirty mexicans taking their jobs" to care about the feelings of said immigrants?
00:31:13 <Fiora> sorry, this is why I left this channel in this first place, I suppose I'll go back to that
00:31:23 <Fiora> at least this time it wasn't white people going on about how it's so great to use the n-word
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00:33:00 <mnoqy> oh no what happened i wasnt paying attention
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00:40:00 <Bike> Stupid connection.
00:40:08 <Bike> I said: "It started badly." clever imo
00:42:12 <Bike> I mean, I'm still confused about what the hell you meant by it being hypocritical to list instances of a guy being an ass, not even to his face which removes the "but what if he doesn't understand" aspect. Normally I'd let it drop, but I'm a bit angry at the moment.
00:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i kind of had some thoughts mulling around from a while ago, i think i jumped on that blog post as a starting point for airing them
00:43:51 <Bike> yeah, i did the same thing once.
00:43:57 <kmc> i don't think what Phantom_Hoover was saying was that different from what i was saying
00:44:03 <kmc> at least I don't understand the significant differences
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00:44:20 <kmc> but maybe I wasn't reading carefully because the conversation was shitty
00:46:15 * Bike breathes some relief
00:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> EVERYTHING IS BACK TO NORMAL so, bf derivatives are shit aren't they
00:46:49 <Bike> the universal conversation starter, huh
00:46:54 <zzo38> To make a random chance of % that is input from the user, is a good way, to make up a random 7-bit number and then try again if greater than 99, and then to check if the generated number is less than the user's number?
00:50:59 <kmc> good by which criteria?
00:52:50 <zzo38> kmc: Well, what would you use?
00:53:42 <Phantom_Hoover> rand(100), most likely; you're clearly operating under some unspoken constraints
00:54:14 <kmc> rand() generally sucks and on some platforms the low bits are suckier
00:54:39 <kmc> zzo38: I can't say for sure what I would use if I don't know what the constraints are.
00:54:41 <Bike> does zzo need csprng quality for this?
00:54:47 <kmc> just as I can't say if your choice is "a good way"
00:54:53 <kmc> it seems correct and simple
00:55:01 <Bike> i mean if it's just a game or something you may as well use a lcg if you want
00:55:13 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i mean re: rand() generally sucking
00:55:53 <zzo38> What stupid corner cases?
00:56:25 <zzo38> If it is bad random bits generator then I can think it would be bad.
00:56:31 <Phantom_Hoover> well e.g. if your rng is something random under 100 with a 50% chance, and 100 with a 50% chance
00:58:15 <zzo38> Well, in that case it would work if everything under 100 is uniform, it works for this purpose, but isn't a good generator anyways.
00:59:14 <zzo38> O, OK, so that's what you mean.
01:03:21 * kmc has arrived on howstuffworks.com somehow and is marveling at stupid article titles
01:03:26 <kmc> "Fact or Fiction: Apple"
01:03:34 <kmc> "Unplug Your Laptop Forever in 7 Steps"
01:03:47 <kmc> step 1: unplug laptop step 2: throw laptop into ocean
01:05:44 <kmc> saw these at the store today: http://www.dyson.com/fans/fansandheaters/comparetherange.aspx
01:05:47 <kmc> basically UFO technology
01:05:48 <Sgeo> can laptops be waterproofed
01:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover> yes dyson is basically the stephen wolfram of air-based appliances
01:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover> he just cannot come to grips with the fact that he is never going to revolutionise the field
01:06:35 <Bike> i used one of his hand dryers the other day, i didn't think you could make a hand dryer look like something out of 2001 but boy howdy was i wrong
01:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> and it was all like "are you SICK of all the BUFFETING from normal fans??"
01:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i love the way they make this weird groove in your hand
01:09:12 <kmc> yeah dyson airblade is the best
01:09:38 <kmc> i interviewed at a company that had them in the bathrooms and it nearly sold me on them
01:09:42 <Sgeo> You know the joke about 'dry hands on pants' wrt air dryers? That happens to me more often with paper towels. The (normal) hand dryer in the bathroom works quite well although takes some time.
01:10:10 <kmc> press button, receive joke
01:10:57 <Sgeo> Not a joke, just ... in the instructions on how to use, I've seen '3) dry hands on pants' etched on and I assumed that that was somewhat common for people to say
01:11:36 <Sgeo> http://everything2.com/title/How+to+use+a+hand+dryer
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01:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover> hand carving things into a metal plate sounds like a lot of work for a hoary joke
01:12:57 <Bike> nah, you can do it with a paper clip
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01:14:27 <kmc> i got disconnected from freenode :'(
01:14:30 <Bike> have you ever been in like a rest stop bathroom
01:15:43 <kmc> i ate a sandwich from a rest stop bathroom and there were worms living inside it that gave me superpowers and made me super-intelligent
01:16:26 <kmc> kmc : () -> 'a ref
01:16:36 <pikhq_> kmc is the nickname for Phillip J Fry.
01:16:49 <kmc> @PLT_FuturamaToday_ebooks
01:16:55 <kmc> noooo i'm that guy now
01:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ages ago i found this surprisingly poetic ebooks thing
01:20:15 <Bike> what... is this
01:20:42 <Bike> in a hundred years this will be considered the peak of 2010s art
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01:21:46 <Bike> "Aristocratic nature is expressed far more in the Russian wolfhound that."
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01:28:32 <kmc> "A court in Guatemala has found former military leader Efrain Rios Montt guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity."
01:28:39 <kmc> shocked to read that the US was a major supporter of his regime
01:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> did the us support any third-world regimes with a decent human rights record
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01:29:48 <kmc> i'll let you know if i think of one
01:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean they can't have been deliberately picking the awful ones, they're not stupid evil
01:30:04 <kmc> the thing is, every country had leftist guerillas
01:30:14 <kmc> and the US supported whoever would suppress them most brutally
01:30:40 <tswett> So I'm going to be doing a senior thesis starting about half a year from now.
01:30:48 <kmc> interesting to note that the nazis also got their start in suppressing leftist guerillas
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01:31:01 <tswett> It's likely that I'm going to do it on some topic in theoretical computer science.
01:31:30 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
01:31:41 <tswett> Anyway, one idea I had was to do a paper on the generalized star height problem.
01:31:57 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_star_height_problem
01:32:02 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: iran under the shah was ok
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01:32:39 <tswett> There's this one paper summing it up, but I feel like it would take me a semester just to get through that paper.
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01:33:47 <tswett> So I'll probably want to figure out something easier.
01:34:11 <tswett> Oh, lemme think. Is there an area of mathematics I feel like I know particularly well? No, not really.
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01:35:45 <Bike> How about addition chains? To pick a random unsolved problem i'm aware of
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01:35:57 <tswett> But I don't know topology well at all.
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01:36:52 <tswett> A problem I found myself particularly interested in once was finding closed forms of linear recurrence sequences.
01:37:05 <tswett> It's a solved problem.
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01:37:20 <kmc> in Iran the post-coup regime (1953-1979) was pretty brutal I think
01:37:20 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK
01:37:33 <tswett> But the particular thing that interested me was what happens to repeated roots.
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01:38:23 <tswett> If you have a repeated root, then the root shows up in the solution multiple times, and each time it shows up, it's multiplied by the next power of n.
01:38:59 <tswett> Gosh, lemme think about that now.
01:39:19 <kmc> 'Gharbzadegi (Persian: غربزدگی) is a pejorative Persian term variously translated as "Westoxification," "West-struck-ness", "Westitis", "Euromania", or "Occidentosis".'
01:39:31 <kmc> that is an amazing word
01:39:41 <Bike> kmc: look up the white revolution
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01:39:42 <Bike_> I can't even tell if this is me or freenode.
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01:40:00 <kmc> i was lagging pretty bad
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01:40:32 <Bike_> so, if i'm actually here: i'm not saying the shah was great obviously but it was probably better than like guatemala.
01:40:33 <tswett> What's a linear recurrence relation for 1, 2, 3, ...? I guess... a_n = 2a_(n-1) - a_(n-2). So the characteristic polynomial is... which way does it go... I guess it's the same either way. t^2 - 2t + 1.
01:40:51 <tswett> Which, of course, factors as (t - 1)(t - 1). Which is a parabola with a double root at 1.
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01:41:04 <kmc> Bike_: fair, I don't know the history well enough to draw those distinctions
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01:42:19 <Bike_> OK, what the hell, I can read everything in the logs, and send messages, but I see no one else's.
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01:42:51 <tswett> I'm not noticing anything wrong on my end.
01:43:45 <Bike> kmc: I only say this because I saw an Iranian guy on a forum rant about people using AJAX as a straightforward "CIA bad!!" thing when that (unsurprisingly) glosses over the history.
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01:44:40 <tswett> So you can think of t as being the "shove the sequence over" operator. Does it matter which way... doesn't seem to. So this polynomial gives you a new operator which, when applied to your sequence, makes it all zero.
01:44:45 <kmc> sure, I think you can pretty well argue that staging coups in someone else's country is bad regardless of whether the new guy is really terrible or just kind of terrible
01:44:55 <Bike> it was definitely bad, yes
01:44:55 <Phantom__Hoover> why are there so many people in this channel who never talk
01:45:03 <Bike> isn't every channel like that?
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01:45:14 <tswett> Where did CakeProphet go?
01:45:49 <Phantom__Hoover> tswett, he turned into kallisti and appears to have since fucked off
01:46:05 <Phantom__Hoover> good riddance imo, i haven't forgiven him for portal chess
01:46:15 <Bike> Oh, and the Phillippines was uh... not a hellhole?
01:46:26 <Bike> Most of it anyway.
01:46:37 <Bike> They just have hilariously corrupt politics
01:46:58 <Bike> and only a few maoist insurgencies!
01:47:24 <tswett> Sure enough, t - 1 is an operator that, when applied twice, makes the thing zero... and I feel like this must have something to do with derivatives.
01:47:43 <Bike> haha yes they got sort of kicked out of malaysia
01:48:06 <Bike> the PM or whoever made a speech saying how sad he was that independence was happening
01:48:20 <kmc> so uh what did mao say that people found particularly insightful / novel such that they became maoists
01:48:39 <Bike> well, he was pretty good at revolution
01:49:03 <Bike> and specifically in a mostly rural country i guess
01:49:07 <Bike> beyond that i dunno
01:49:41 <Bike> i wonder if there are ay hoxhaist insurgencies...
01:50:15 <Sgeo> I'm watching "Dalek"
01:50:24 <Bike> One of the Colombian ones is Hoxhaist, apparnetly.
01:50:35 <Sgeo> Are they idiots? They can't just say "Ok, this electronic lock has no correct combination anymore"
01:50:39 <tswett> What does the derivative of the characteristic polynomial mean, conceptually... what does the whole polynomial mean... why am I still talking even though presumably nobody's listening...
01:50:45 <Sgeo> And no protections against brute forcing?
01:51:30 <Bike> isn't Dalek from like 1963
01:51:44 <Sgeo> The NuWho episode
01:52:21 <Sgeo> wtf it's using sounds from Creatures Docking Station
01:52:24 <Bike> kmc: but yeah i think a lot of it's the tactics? like the vietcong used the maoist insurgency model and they wer ehella successful. just a guess though
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01:57:48 <tswett> I guess it's, like, you factor it, and you do them all except you forget one, and then do that with all of them...
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02:03:58 <tswett> It's like, you take the sequence 1, 1, 1, ..., and you repeatedly integrate it... except that's not what you're doing at all, is it... and do you even start with that sequence in the first place...
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02:05:33 <kmc> i don't know what mao said about tactics
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02:07:27 <Sgeo> Goddammit even the Doctor is an idiot in this episode.
02:08:49 <tswett> So occurrences of the same root stack on top of each other, and they do that multiplication thing... that multiplication thing which consists of, like, multiplying...
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02:10:06 <tswett> If you convolute a constant sequence with itself, you get a linear sequence. If you convolute an exponential sequence with itself...
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02:11:27 <tswett> Then that's linear-times-exponential, sure enough. But if you convolute two different exponential sequences... better place to start, what if you convolute a constant with an exponential...
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02:13:25 <tswett> Here's an exponential sequence: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, .... Here's a constant sequence: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, .... Convolute them, and you get this sequence: 1, 3, 7, 15, 31, .... So somehow it's turned into an exponential sequence *plus* a constant sequence.
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02:17:22 <Sgeo> I want to see the Doctor fail hard.
02:17:39 <Sgeo> I want him to make that choice, that choice to save one and risk everything... and then everything comes down
02:18:33 * Bike looks up at netsplits in astonishment
02:18:55 <tswett> So those sequences correspond to 1/(1-2x) and 1/(1-x), and their convolution is of course 1/(1-2x)(1-x), which can also be written as 1/(1-3x+2x^2), which doesn't really look spectacular. But that partial fraction expansion... how do partial fractions work, anyway...
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02:20:15 <kmc> srand(time(NULL)) is a terrible hack that shouldn't ever be necessary
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02:20:27 <Bike> what should we seed with
02:20:33 <kmc> bytes from /dev/urandom
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02:20:47 <kmc> actually Linux passes some randomness to every new process, in the ELF auxv
02:20:55 <kmc> so you wouldn't even need to make a separate syscall
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02:21:12 <Sgeo> Maybe I should start reading Watchmen
02:21:38 <Bike> so don't bother seeding, or
02:22:24 <kmc> ideally the default seed would be from urandom / auxv AT_RANDOM
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02:22:40 <zzo38> I have problems with the connect
02:22:40 <kmc> of course people would still write srand(time(NULL)) for the following 20 years
02:22:42 <zzo38> I have problems with the connection
02:22:51 <kmc> zzo38: a lot of us do
02:23:43 <Bike> seeding rand with time is easy to understand, though
02:23:48 <Bike> and you don't think about the attacks...
02:24:55 <tswett> Take a screenshot, hash it, and use that as your seed! :D
02:25:00 <Sgeo> Um. How likely is stuff to try to content-sniff something with MIME-type application/json?
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02:25:54 <Sgeo> Just a question.
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02:28:53 <Sgeo> This is really the sort of thing I should just google
02:29:48 <Sgeo> What idiocy is on the scale of content-sniffing? I haven't picked up the book in a while
02:30:13 <Bike> Content sniffing is where you look at the content to guess how to interpret it, right?
02:31:03 <Bike> is that still used on web content?
02:31:18 <kmc> yes because everything is ruined forever
02:31:41 <kmc> i like the thing where you can trick Internet Explorer into interpreting a page as UTF-7
02:31:57 <Bike> Well, I've heard IE does it, but others?
02:32:07 <kmc> +ADw-script+AD4-alert(+ACI-Hello, world+ACEAIg)+ADsAPA-/script+AD4
02:32:10 <Bike> also: can you do a "bush hid the facts" level thing
02:32:26 <Sgeo> kmc, ....bluh so urlencoding isn't enough
02:32:42 <kmc> well HTML escaping is more germane
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02:33:13 <Sgeo> The problem with whitelisting allowed characters is not realizing that an innocent + or - can be bad too
02:33:16 <tswett> I wonder how IE detects character encodings. Naive Bayes classifiers?
02:33:21 <Sgeo> So it might be in the whitelist
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02:33:34 <Bike> «UTF-7 is generally not used as a native representation within applications as it is very awkward to process. Despite its size advantage over the combination of UTF-8 with either quoted-printable or base64, the Internet Mail Consortium recommends against its use.» wow really you don't say
02:33:34 <JesseH> Anyone working on a cool esolang?
02:33:41 <Bike> is utf-7 an esolang
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02:33:58 <tswett> Well, it's not that + and - are bad; it's that the same bytes may be decoded one way to get + and -, and another way to get bad characters.
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02:34:52 -!- kmc has set topic: is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | I +JmU UTF-7 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:34:57 <Sgeo> fuck everything
02:35:09 <Sgeo> Is there any way to abuse alphanumerics in a similar way
02:35:22 <Bike> ooh it's not really related but you know what's cool? alphanumeric code
02:35:30 <kmc> Sgeo: also it's basically an IE bug that was fixed long ago I think
02:35:47 <Bike> your firewall only accepts text? well too bad my text is shellcode
02:35:47 <kmc> that it would do dumb autodetect shit even when the page had a specified encoding
02:36:01 <kmc> i don't know, maybe it is still vulnerable if you don't specify an encoding
02:37:21 <kmc> <meta charset="utf-8"> <!-- In the name of Ken Thompson, the merciful, the compassionate -->
02:40:04 <kmc> describing the character set of a document using text-based markup is an entertaining kind of bass-ackwards thing to do
02:40:42 <pikhq_> That's the sort of trick that only manages to work because most charsets have a large common subset.
02:41:01 <kmc> <_et/ ch/rset="EBCDIC">
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02:41:28 <pikhq_> Yeah, someone using EBCDIC in this day and age should be shot.
02:42:43 <zzo38> But you have to use a camera.
02:43:16 <tswett> EBCDIC is still used nowadays, isn't it?
02:43:55 <Sgeo> tswett, yes. Companies that make target practice for pikhq_ use it all the time.
02:44:07 <zzo38> Well, it isn't very good. ASCII is better, but I would have ordered some things differently in ASCII too.
02:44:09 <pikhq_> Exclusively in the context of software from the 60s that people are afraid to touch.
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02:44:26 <Sgeo> What's so bad about EBCDIC?
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02:44:47 <pikhq_> Look at the freaking code chart.
02:44:47 <zzo38> Mainly, how everything is ordered in the character set.
02:45:02 <Bike_> "What's so bad about EBCDIC?" man did i miss some good stuff
02:45:03 <kmc> my friend at Stripe says they have to interoperate with EBCDIC financial protocols
02:45:06 <tswett> Apparently there are multiple different versions of EBCDIC and the letters aren't contiguous.
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02:45:30 <pikhq_> There's also UTF-EBCDIC.
02:45:37 <pikhq_> I wonder if that's even used.
02:46:22 <zzo38> Some programs can use different character set whatever works better, but mainly you would use ASCII.
02:46:39 <Sgeo> ANyone who uses ASCII in this day and age should be shot
02:46:59 <Bike> anyone who uses text encodings in this day and age should be shot. cat pictures = the future.
02:47:08 <pikhq_> Meh. ASCII is just UCS-7/8.
02:47:18 <kmc> if forigners want to use computers they should just learn english, obviously
02:47:26 <kmc> (by foreigners I mean 95% of the world population, of course)
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02:47:41 <tswett> And "foreigner" means "non-Korean", obviously.
02:47:49 <pikhq_> Demo, nihon de ha minna ga romaji wo tsukaeru no
02:48:14 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that's a Korean word.
02:48:15 <Bike> pikhq-kun, denwa
02:48:17 * kmc ghost face
02:48:58 <pikhq_> Bike: Boku wa keitai wo tsukaitakunaishi...
02:49:13 <Bike> nice two dollar word
02:49:39 <pikhq_> Japanese conjugation tends to go like that.
02:49:59 <Bike> is japanese agglutinative?
02:50:18 <zzo38> kmc: Well, enough to operating computers anyways; you don't need to learn English completely!!!!! For writing in different languages there *are* different font and encodings, and which is the purpose of using such things, even if the commands is in English..... i.e. you write a program using ASCII it can still work with other characters sets too. Or, you can work in binary; then it doesn't matter the character sets either.
02:50:52 <zzo38> Software for the Famicom might use different character sets in case not all ASCII is needed, or for the purpose I did in Famicom Hangman, where it directly read the keyboard and then XOR with the row number, so the letters are all over the place in its character set.
02:51:01 <kmc> U+FE08 VARIATION SELECTOR 'GANGNAM STYLE'
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02:51:26 <Bike> i still haven't heard gangnam style. i'm so stupidly proud of this fact
02:51:42 <Bike> i watched the demusicked video so i still recognize all the memes though
02:51:47 <kmc> it's all ricghht
02:51:56 <kmc> (all right but i couldn't be bothered to fix typo)
02:52:03 <pikhq_> It's decent East Asian pop music.
02:52:08 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82LCKBdjywQ better
02:52:08 <tswett> So I guess z/OS uses EBCDIC.
02:52:28 <Bike> one of my friends used to be super into j-rock so god knows i've heard enough such pop
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02:52:34 <Bike> kmc: fantastic
02:52:35 <zzo38> (However, if you convert the Famicom keyboard input into ASCII, this makes it very easy to handle the SHIFT and CONTROL keys without using any further lookup tables. The only lookup table needed is for the individual keys.)
02:52:57 <pikhq_> tswett: IIRC they use EBCDIC as a legacy charset, and new software uses UTF-16.
02:53:05 <pikhq_> (which is itself stupid, but hey.)
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02:53:38 <zzo38> Well, yes, but still some software uses it such as VGM format GD3 tags are all in UTF-16 format.
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02:54:59 <zzo38> The Windows API functions with "W" are using UTF-16 (and strings are stored in UTF-16 in VB6, although they are usually converted to single byte encoding when calling Windows API functions, but if you know to do it, you can avoid this).
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02:56:33 <zzo38> A program that is reading ASCII input files and will output a format that uses UTF-16 then it can use UTF-8 for the parts that does need to convert to UTF-16 and ASCII for the rest, since UTF-8 is extended ASCII and is simple enough to convert to UTF-16.
02:57:11 <pikhq_> Ultimately, there's UTF-8 and bad ideas. :)
02:57:48 <kmc> for serialization, anyway
02:57:50 <zzo38> Furthermore, they aren't mutually exclusive.
02:57:56 <zzo38> This makes it even worse.
02:58:04 <tswett> Just use UTF-32 everywhere and let the kernel automatically compress your data.
02:58:14 <tswett> If the kernel doesn't do that, it sucks.
02:58:15 <pikhq_> UTF-32 internally at least isn't *stupid*.
02:58:20 <zzo38> Glulx uses UTF-32.
02:58:38 <pikhq_> It's not great for serialization, and honestly accessing codepoints individually is a rare thing, but whatever.
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02:59:06 <tswett> What do you mean by "accessing codepoints individually"? Like, indexing into a string?
02:59:24 <pikhq_> You don't generally want to index by codepoint.
02:59:32 <kmc> UTF-16 internally may not be that stupid either; it can be a lot faster and you may not need random codepoint indexing (because it's not that useful)
03:00:03 <pikhq_> 'cept you're probably getting UTF-8 from outside.
03:00:19 <zzo38> Some programs might use overlong UTF-8 encodings to escape control characters and spaces and so on; VGMCK does this (in GD3 tags only; everywhere else they are invalid because they aren't ASCII), so that you can output GD3 tags with trailing spaces.
03:00:25 <Bike> maybe this is a reason to use touchscreeny interfaces
03:00:29 <Bike> just fuck text
03:00:29 <Bike> go postliterate
03:00:42 <kmc> i think for storing large amounts of text with random codepoint indexing, you probably want a rope of UTF-8 or UTF-16 chunks, where each chunk knows its length and you just scan linearly
03:01:03 <zzo38> I don't like touchscreen; keyboard is better
03:01:04 <kmc> i bet with the right SSE voodoo you can find the nth UTF-8 codepoint really quickly
03:01:09 <kmc> paging Fiora
03:01:31 <tswett> Hm. You could interpret UTF-8 as a sequence of Unicode code points and re-encode it in UTF-8.
03:01:36 <pikhq_> Makes sense. Particularly if you make it so each rope cannot contain only part of a codepoint on its boundaries.
03:01:41 <pikhq_> tswett: I've *seen this happen*.
03:01:43 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this kind of UTF-8 -> UTF-16 that is doing it for this purpose?
03:02:45 <pikhq_> tswett: It was in filenames in a .rar file no less.
03:02:57 <tswett> Wait, was the 21-bit limit on code points chosen because of UTF-8?
03:03:11 <Bike> didn't the limit used to be lower
03:03:19 <pikhq_> No. In fact, UTF-8 only possesses such a limit for the sake of the 21-bit limit.
03:03:28 <pikhq_> Bike: Yes. 16. Hence UTF-16.
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03:03:39 <tswett> So it's a coincidence that 21 bits fits snugly into 4 UTF-8 bytes.
03:03:48 <kmc> http://woboq.com/blog/utf-8-processing-using-simd.html
03:03:59 <pikhq_> UTF-16 got popular because "you can stick anything in it", and then they changed that assumption.
03:04:29 <pikhq_> So now UTF-16 is neither codepoint per code unit *nor* compatible with typical ASCII-assuming code.
03:04:40 <pikhq_> Making it just awkward.
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03:05:58 <zzo38> Yes I know, that is why don't use UTF-16.
03:06:55 <zzo38> UTF-8 actually allow 36-bit codes, although Unicode is only up to 21-bits so it will not be a valid Unicode character if you do this.
03:07:21 <zzo38> It is still valid if you are using a much longer encoding than Unicode, which still is UTF-8 for some reason.
03:10:08 <zzo38> This means that it is possible to encode the Glk special keyboard codes in UTF-8.
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03:13:04 <tswett> So the whole UTF-8-in-UTF-8 thing means that a byte 1xxxxxxx would be reencoded as 1100001x 10xxxxxx. And that would be reencoded as 11000011 1000001x 11000010 10xxxxxx... repeat forever, what do you get?
03:14:23 <tswett> Oh, what are the Haskell codes...
03:15:43 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in reenc undefined
03:15:47 <lambdabot> ["1100001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:16:09 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in fix (concatMap reenc)
03:16:48 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in concatMap reenc . reenc $ undefined
03:16:51 <lambdabot> ["11000011","1000001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:16:59 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in concatMap reenc . concatMap reenc . reenc $ undefined
03:17:02 <lambdabot> ["11000011","10000011","11000010","1000001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:17:26 <tswett> And yet the fix doesn't work. We need more laze...
03:18:55 <tswett> But, like... shouldn't it work? It appears to work for arbitrarily many iterations of concatMap reenc, so shouldn't it work for infinitely many...
03:19:10 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]] in concatMap reenc $ undefined
03:19:55 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]]; col ~(x:xs) = x:xs in concatMap reenc . col $ undefined
03:19:57 <lambdabot> ["1100001*Exception: Prelude.undefined
03:20:10 <tswett> > let reenc ~['1',a,b,c,d,e,f,g] = ["1100001" ++ [a], "10" ++ [b,c,d,e,f,g]]; col ~(x:xs) = x:xs in fix (concatMap reenc . col)
03:20:14 <lambdabot> ["11000011","10000011","11000010","10000011","11000011","10000010","1100001...
03:21:47 <zzo38> 0xFE 0x83 0xBF 0xBF 0xBF 0xBF 0xBE is the UTF-8 encoding for the Glk left arrow key.
03:22:56 <zzo38> (Glk doesn't use UTF-8 though; but I suppose it could be used if you wanted to record the user input to a Glk program in a UTF-8 encoded file.)
03:23:31 <kmc> i'm not sure that code where every line is a call to an SSE intrinsic is really more readable than inline assembly
03:23:42 <kmc> but I guess it is better in some other ways
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03:23:56 <kmc> some level of type checking, let the compiler do register allocation, more portable
03:24:17 <kmc> (portable between compilers for the same architecture, I mean)
03:24:49 <Fiora> assembly isn't even done by a compiler though, right?
03:25:43 <Fiora> I mean, that seems even more compatible ^^;
03:25:57 <Fiora> with intrinsics the compiler has to support the specific intrinsic format and stuff
03:26:15 <kmc> i think GCC and MSVC intrinsicts are more similar than GCC and MSVC inline asm syntax
03:26:21 <kmc> because intel more or less dictates the former?
03:26:23 <kmc> not sure though
03:26:58 <Fiora> using inline asm for SIMD feels kind of silly I guess?
03:27:20 <Fiora> like, you have to runtime-detect the code anyways, so you can't actually inline it
03:28:22 <shachaf> Now my Internet connection is OK but I need to go to sleep.
03:28:31 <Fiora> I almost never use intrinsics though, I am super glad I don't have to touch them, they look painful to use
03:28:53 <shachaf> Also joining a discussion on whateveritism is one thing but I don't want to start one.
03:29:10 <kmc> do you just write assembly in separate files then?
03:29:14 * shachaf will leave opinions for another day.
03:29:21 <Fiora> like 98% of the time I guess?
03:29:40 <Fiora> I think I pretty much only do inline-asm when I need to inline it, and like, I really need to futz with constraints or something
03:29:55 <Fiora> but inline asm doesn't work with anything other than gcc and it's a super-big hassle
03:30:18 <kmc> i'm pretty fond of gcc inline assembly :)
03:30:22 <kmc> maybe too fond
03:30:44 <shachaf> gcc inline assembly syntax is awful
03:30:53 <kmc> but it's soooooooo powerful
03:31:05 <kmc> except for %r8 - %r15 :(
03:31:47 <shachaf> I wish it would allow a large block of inline asm without a lot of noise.
03:32:02 <kmc> you can use semicolons instead of \n\t
03:32:07 <kmc> ...on most architectures?
03:32:17 <kmc> you still have quotes on every line
03:32:19 <shachaf> ";", is still a lot of overhead.
03:32:28 <kmc> er why the comma
03:32:45 <shachaf> ";" is still a lot of overhead.
03:32:56 <Fiora> kmc: yeah, I do really love the constraints
03:33:00 <shachaf> And I prefer to " \ n " so that the output is readable.
03:33:12 <Fiora> the main thing is just like, writing asm without a macro assembler is bothersome
03:33:24 <shachaf> I think the constraint language is way too write-only.
03:33:47 <pikhq_> Alas, gas is meant to assemble compiler output, not for human consumption.
03:33:50 <kmc> the constraint language is some GCC internal crap that escaped the lab, right?
03:34:04 <shachaf> Maybe it isn't if I treat it as a proper language rather than something to look up once every few months or something.
03:34:07 <kmc> Fiora: yeah that's true, macro assemblers are great
03:34:19 <kmc> I like that I can write a macro that's like, make a Linux syscall in what looks like one instruction
03:34:25 <kmc> and that's probably one of the simpler cool marcos
03:34:28 <kmc> macros too
03:35:14 <shachaf> every programming language is a macro assembler hth
03:35:56 <zzo38> GCC inline asm syntax is no good because of the way it decides how long the instruction is, I think.
03:36:04 <Fiora> kmc: nasm macros can get insanely fancy, it's really wonderful
03:36:27 <Fiora> %rep and %assign are truly wonderful things
03:36:41 <Fiora> sometimes even programming C I wish I had them
03:36:52 <zzo38> I have worked with some macro assemblers such as MagicKit which I have made improvements to, and Frolg.
03:36:55 <Fiora> <some code that uses i>
03:37:16 <Fiora> and you can get super complicated and fancy
03:37:17 <zzo38> Fiora: Yes I think that can be useful to have in C as well, but with # instead of %
03:37:20 <Bike> it's an inline repeat?
03:37:38 <Fiora> you can even repeat an unspecified number of times, and break out explicitly!
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03:38:01 <shachaf> That sounds like a loop to me. Who cares if it's unrolled?
03:38:23 <Fiora> it's... it's not quite, sometimes you can't quite turn things into loops or it isn't a good idea
03:38:32 <Bike> while 1 break in macros is an odd idea though
03:38:33 <shachaf> is this some kind of operational detail
03:38:36 <Fiora> or like it's not even possible because the "i" affects the instructions themselves
03:38:41 <Fiora> not just, like, an address
03:38:52 <shachaf> imo denotational semantics hth
03:39:00 <Bike> and what's %assign do, pick a register?
03:39:05 <Fiora> it just sets a variable,
03:39:08 <Fiora> in the preprocessor
03:39:16 <Fiora> it's not quite %define, because it actually evaluates the expression
03:39:23 <Fiora> so %assign i i+1 means i=i+1;
03:39:27 <zzo38> Or if you want to write { [0]=5, [1]=6, [2]=7, [3]=8 } and so on, in C.
03:39:41 <Fiora> oh yeah! you can also use it to construct lookup tables programmatically
03:39:45 <Fiora> without having to do them at runtime
03:39:57 <Fiora> but ummmm let me see if I can think of a good example
03:40:04 <shachaf> I just closed my browser and behind it I had five mtr windows running.
03:40:15 <zzo38> In C (at least in GCC) you can even do that and then override later in the same table like { [0]=5, [0]=8 }
03:40:24 <Fiora> okay, you have a vector of 4 ints, and on each iteration, you need to (among other things) splat an int across a register
03:40:29 <zzo38> That makes it useful to make such tables.
03:40:31 <Fiora> soooo on the first iteration you'dd o
03:40:46 <Fiora> pshufd tmpreg, myreg, 00000000b
03:40:54 <Fiora> and on the second you'd do pshufd tmpreg, myreg, 01010101b
03:41:27 <Fiora> if that was inside of a %rep'd statement, you could do like... pshufd tmpreg, myreg, i*01010101b!
03:41:53 <Fiora> so on the first iteration you'd splat myreg[0], then myreg[1], and stuff
03:42:08 <Fiora> sorry this is probably super confusingly explained
03:42:25 <zzo38> I understand it, though.
03:42:54 <Fiora> basically unrolling things is pretty much required when it affects the actual instructions, I guess?
03:47:37 <zzo38> Another thing I would like to have in C is to make long macros that can include preprocessor directives and so on.
03:47:53 <Sgeo> I should watch ST:VOY Threshold
03:48:43 <shachaf> Right. And therefore one shouldn't care about the actual instructions.
03:48:59 <Bike> i've thought a bit about how you could have lisp-style macrology in C, but i don't think it plays well with C's typing (at all)
03:49:06 * Fiora okay won't argue don't do that like earlier *poof*
03:49:29 <kmc> Bike: how so
03:49:53 <Sgeo> ....that episode won an Emmy
03:50:03 <zzo38> What else I would like to have is a programming language that uses TeX as its preprocessor.
03:50:13 <kmc> zzo38: of course
03:50:41 <Sgeo> Star Trek Voyager "Threshold"
03:50:58 <shachaf> Fiora: OK, I'm confused, but never mind.
03:51:23 <Bike> kmc: well, with lisp macros you have forms, which are arbitrary code that you don't have to care about the form of. could be a symbol or a function call or whatever. so in C you'd need to have like a "form" type, presumably a tagged union. but to pass all the arguments to the macro function in the same way they need to be able to decompose those arguments, so you have to care about the tags and stuff
03:51:54 <kmc> yeah using C to manipulate tree shaped data is annoying
03:52:05 <kmc> i think you should pair your extension with a pattern-matching extension to C
03:52:16 <kmc> which I think could be pretty simple sugar
03:52:17 <Bike> so schemeish macros?
03:52:23 <kmc> nah fuck that noise
03:52:35 <Bike> oh, pattern matching like haskell
03:52:53 <Bike> probably the best syntax for dealing with unions yeah
03:52:54 <kmc> just extend 'case' to have a nice compact way to switch on field x of a struct and also project in field y which is a union
03:52:57 <kmc> or something yeah
03:53:02 <Fiora> shachaf: um, I'm just trying not to argue that's all
03:54:19 <shachaf> I don't mind arguments although I don't think I was arguing about anything.
03:54:22 <shachaf> I think I was joking but sometimes I can't tell.
03:54:22 <Bike> frankly i don't think i'm good enough at C to do any such thing well, though.
03:54:35 <Fiora> um, exactly I don't understand ._.
03:54:45 <Fiora> and talking about things I don't understand is bad
03:54:53 <Bike> i.e. i don't know what C programmers would actually want, etc
03:55:17 <shachaf> We can have a metadiscussion about how talking about things you don't understand is good, because otherwise how will you ever understand anything?
03:55:36 <shachaf> But if you don't understand that either then we'd be stuck.
03:55:40 <kmc> i never metadiscussion I didn't like
03:56:30 <shachaf> i was in canada this morning
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03:56:37 <Bike> Rust is probably better than anything i could come up with anyway (I don't know shit about rust)
03:56:58 <kmc> Bike: I applied to work at Mozilla on their new browser written in Rust!
03:57:04 <kmc> but they didn't get back to me yet
03:57:59 <kmc> they say you can work from any office or remotely
03:58:03 <kmc> but i would work from the SF office
03:58:11 <kmc> mozilla is a strange company
03:58:27 <kmc> most of their revenue comes from Google paying for Google to be the default search engine in Firefox
03:58:40 <kmc> apparently this is enough to pay for a dozen really nice worldwide offices and hundreds of full time employees
03:59:28 <Bike> that sounds like the modern version of a very illegal 19th century arrangement
04:01:20 <Bike> it sounds hella shady is what i'm saying
04:01:41 <kmc> i don't see anything wrong with it ethically, but it seems like shaky ground for mozilla
04:01:44 <zzo38> Is the "0" in linear logic what you cannot make and the "top" what you cannot use?
04:02:06 <kmc> what if google decides to stop paying and to hire the best Mozilla engineers to work on Chrome?
04:02:18 <Sgeo> I think when I was a kid I thought Google was the default because everyone loved Google
04:02:20 <Bike> it seems kind of monopolistic?
04:03:05 <zzo38> Well, you can change it, or even offer your own version which changes that and other things, if you want to.
04:03:20 <zzo38> So it is not *that* important.
04:03:22 <kmc> Bike: otoh they are explicitly supporting a competitor in the browser space
04:03:36 <kmc> i've heard the theory that it's like Microsoft investing in Apple way back when
04:03:42 <Sgeo> Google used to not be in the browser marketplace
04:03:43 <kmc> keeping a competitor alive to keep the SEC off your back
04:03:57 <kmc> they also say that having more browser competition is good for the Web and that helps Google
04:04:00 <kmc> which i think is fair
04:04:11 <Bike> you're not helping the idea that this isn't shady by saying it's to throw off government agents
04:04:57 <Sgeo> We should start the web from scratch, design it properly.
04:05:11 <Bike> TCP has to go clearly
04:05:14 <zzo38> We should make the "paranoid web browser" which is using the "paranoid rendering engine" and "paranoid DOM" and stuff, which causes it to ignore a lot of things and use overrides for everything.
04:05:14 <kmc> now i'm imagining a show like The X-Files except it's Mulder and Scully investigating abuse of monopoly power
04:05:14 <Bike> alt. let's all use gopher
04:05:15 <Sgeo> If people want to use the old web, they flip a switch in their browser... or perhaps different browser.
04:05:23 <zzo38> Bike: Gopher is still TCP.
04:05:32 <Bike> that's why it's an alt.ernative!
04:05:42 <Bike> kmc: that'd be depressing because they'd hardly ever succeed
04:05:44 <zzo38> But at least gopher is better than all of the junk in webpages and stuff.
04:06:00 <kmc> Bike: they hardly ever succeed on the real show too
04:06:06 <Bike> Sgeo: so, what to use instead of http
04:06:11 <Bike> kmc: (i've never watched the x files)
04:06:14 <Bike> (i'm a bad nerd :()
04:06:37 <kmc> i've seen ~half of it
04:06:41 <Bike> I have seen http://www.shaenon.com/monsteroftheweek/ though.
04:06:43 <zzo38> HTML and the stuff used with it is worse than HTTP.
04:06:52 <Sgeo> Do we want to make SOP fundamental or use different new policy
04:07:05 <shachaf> Bike: http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=374
04:07:06 <Sgeo> Content-sniffing is horrible, it should be banned in new protocol
04:07:21 <kmc> Bike: oh i saw that episode
04:07:21 <Sgeo> Cookies thrown out and redesigned
04:07:39 <kmc> oh wait this is... all of them
04:07:43 <kmc> well all of the first 2 seasons
04:07:56 <Sgeo> SOP (or some alternative) made consistent and not even the equivalent of a cross-domain GET should occur without permission from the other server
04:07:57 <zzo38> Gopher is fine for a lot of things. Some things aren't, but that is why we have IRC, Telnet, SMTP, SSH, etc
04:08:04 <Bike> shachaf: that dog is so bad.
04:08:13 <kmc> Bike: this is great thanks for sharing
04:08:44 <Bike> http://www.shaenon.com/monsteroftheweek/?p=277 would explain a lot really
04:08:56 <Sgeo> Although SOP might not be that big a deal without cookies?
04:10:08 <kmc> oh man Eugene Tooms
04:10:08 <zzo38> If you need a persistent session, you can use SSH; it is how the internet intended persistent sessions to work.
04:12:30 <kmc> handed down on stone tablets
04:13:13 <Bike> ugh why are all of the comicker's sites so badly... bad
04:13:30 <Bike> i can't read skin horse because it goes into a redirect loop, what is even happening
04:14:28 <Sgeo> Clearly, the comic is about a redirect loop
04:16:35 <zzo38> "If people want to use the old web, they flip a switch in their browser..." ... Wouldn't you just change the URI scheme or something like that????
04:17:08 <Bike> "Chromium's connection attempt to www.shaenon.com was rejected" and what is this bullshit
04:17:17 <Bike> am i not good enough for you, tv show based comics??
04:17:37 <shachaf> kmc: did you apply to other things
04:18:33 <kmc> i had my first tech phone interview with matasano today
04:18:36 <kmc> it went well I think
04:19:05 <shachaf> I sent Fiora some /msgs to ask about what happened and she /quit. :-(
04:19:34 <shachaf> Oh well. No metametadiscussions either, I guess.
04:19:39 <Bike> Earlier she got in an argument here and she was (is) feeling really anxious.
04:19:43 <zzo38> Some programs also have documentation in HTML format, which means the file: URI scheme will be used in my browser.
04:21:28 <shachaf> I suppose /msging someone who /parts when they get uncomfortable is like trapping them.
04:21:41 <Bike> «According to Wikipedia, Entertainment Weekly called this episode “offbeat and cute.” This episode opens with an onscreen rape»
04:24:32 <kmc> we're really avoiding touchy subjects here aren't we
04:25:07 <kmc> shachaf: maybe soon I will be a Security Consultant
04:25:13 <kmc> i think it would be nice
04:25:16 <kmc> new puzzles every few weeks
04:28:27 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4lK41SX-Q why don't i watch wrestling?
05:38:45 <zzo38> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog and feels as if he were in the seventh heaven of typography together with Hermann Zapf, the most famous artist of the...
05:48:49 <Sgeo> "Message in a Bottle" is one of the good Voy episodes, right?
05:48:51 <Sgeo> I've seen it before
05:50:19 <zzo38> Do you know if the linear logic "0" means you cannot make it and "top" means you cannot use it?
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06:12:31 <Jafet1> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resolution.jpg
06:13:26 <Bike> bosch is the best
06:14:23 <kmc> the bosch manifesto: bosch is the best, get high all the time
06:16:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_ManTree_Bosch.jpg just chillin
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12:35:54 <Jafet> “A lumberjack is injured when cutting a tree which has been spiked by environmentalists. He is infected by genetically modified tree sap, causing him to turn into a zombie.”
12:36:06 <Jafet> Sounds like a good movie
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12:46:11 <FreeFull> He then gets killed by a hobo with a shotgun
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14:30:12 <Vorpal> Program received signal SIGPWR, Power fail/restart.
14:30:13 <Vorpal> [Switching to Thread 0x7ffff4a65700 (LWP 16660)]
14:30:29 <Vorpal> That is utterly bogus.
14:31:06 <Vorpal> I guess gdb won't work on this program if it uses SIGPWR for some sort of internal signalling
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15:38:30 <Taneb> United States of Saudi Arabia
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15:41:58 <HackEgo> Qw3rtyP0iuy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:43:20 <Bike> like visual basic?
15:43:25 <Taneb> Qw3rtyP0iuy, I hope not, VB was my first programming language
15:43:50 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> Seeing if I can put out a game in 19 more hours.
15:45:04 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> I find the game interesting, you must have exactly 5 players... so I'm going to write this and the AI
15:45:04 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> RIght now I only have the shuffling, dealing, and playing cards down.
15:45:05 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> I'm a bit slow as I've forgotten all syntax for every language I've used... so using VB
15:46:47 <Taneb> Any particular reason you came here?
15:47:13 <Taneb> Visual Basic is kinda esoteric, but this isn't really the channel for it as far as I know)
15:47:26 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> I'm going to wager it's not esoteric at all
15:48:02 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> Anyways, I figured out the basics of brainfuck when I was a kid because of its intriguing name
15:48:28 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> and I saw Chinese graphics card problem in the information... which I have.
15:48:41 * myname had to giggle at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl
15:50:04 <Qw3rtyP0iuy> anyways, I glanced over MIT's esoteric programming language competitions more than twice
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16:14:33 <oerjan> <Taneb> On an unrelated note, I believe that in base 30, 1/11 has a ten-digit long repeating part <-- is that 11 in base 10 or 30?
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16:15:46 <oerjan> because i think 1/11_b has two-digit long repeating part in all bases b
16:17:16 <lifthras1ir> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2F11+in+base+30
16:18:03 <Taneb> oerjan, 11 base 10
16:18:08 <myname> that is not 1/(30^-1 * 30^-2)
16:18:23 <oerjan> well wolfram alpha agrees with you on 11_10
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16:20:12 <oerjan> basically because 11_b * b = 100_{b^2}-1 and 1/(b-1) always has one-digit repetition in base b, so 1/11_b has one-digit in base b^2
16:21:15 <oerjan> * 11_b * (b-1) = 100_{b^2}-1
16:21:47 <oerjan> * 11_b * (b-1) = 10_{b^2}-1
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16:22:25 <lifthras1ir> and of course 1 / (11 in base 9) in base 10 has no recurring digits at all
16:23:00 <lifthras1ir> now consider a non-positional or non-standard positional numeral system...
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16:23:05 <Jafet> In fact, it has two
16:23:51 <lifthrasiir> Jafet, okay, it has a form with no recurring digits at all.
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16:26:20 <oerjan> also, the number of recurring digits of 1/x in base b, when x relatively prime to b, is the order of b in the multiplicative group Z_x hth
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16:27:06 <oerjan> i guess it's not actually called Z_x, that's the whole ring. i forget.
16:27:21 <oerjan> multiplicative group (mod x), anyway.
16:27:59 <oerjan> which has order the euler totient of x iirc
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16:28:59 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_totient_function
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16:30:41 <oerjan> phi(11) = 10 so whatever the number of repetitions of 1/11 is in any base will divide 10.
16:31:21 <olsner> isn't phi(n) = n-1 for all primes?
16:32:00 <oerjan> and only for primes, i guess.
16:33:43 <Taneb> The day before yesterday I found myself discussing who would win in a fight: Wolverine or Scott Pilgrim
16:34:18 <oerjan> something i happily cannot discuss.
16:34:31 <olsner> are they even in the same universe?
16:34:49 <olsner> then they wouldn't fight
16:35:03 <Taneb> Didn't stop Superman and Goku
16:35:36 <oerjan> itt olsner shows naivety about crossovers
16:37:04 <Taneb> Scouring the internet, it seems to be "they wouldn't fight because they both love Canada
16:37:07 <oerjan> hypothesis: any sufficiently long-lasting speculative fiction franchise will eventually develop a multiverse that theoretically embraces all others.
16:37:29 <Taneb> oerjan, what about Stainless Steel Rat
16:37:39 <olsner> hmm, what's that thing about how almost every tv series is in the same universe?
16:37:43 <olsner> based on the theory that each crossover "proves" that the crossed-over universes are the same
16:37:54 <oerjan> Taneb: i've heard the name, and that's _all_ i remember about it.
16:38:57 <Bike> westphall, olsner
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16:39:39 <olsner> Bike: ah, yes, that's it
16:39:42 <oerjan> audio-/visual- confusion again
16:40:04 <Taneb> oerjan, it's a series of stories about a conman in the distant future
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16:44:21 <olsner> oh, and since someone appeared in a westphall universe series playing themselves, the real world is also contained in someone's dream in a tv series
16:45:58 <Taneb> Doesn't that universe include the Transformers comics and M*A*S*H
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17:30:15 <Sgeo> I'm starting to blame all my computer problems on Chrome
17:30:47 <Sgeo> Sometimes mouse stops working, and I switch to console and killall chrome a few times
17:30:58 <Sgeo> Switch back, Chrome's dead and mouse can click things again
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17:35:24 <Bike> uninstall wall street
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17:56:14 <nortti> http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/1e4sns/import_xmonadlayoutnoborders/
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18:30:46 <kmc> nortti: lolol
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18:31:27 <nortti> kmc: did you know that anarchism is a real package in debian ands ubuntu
18:32:00 * kmc rages at the fact that the Haskell joke is just factually wrong, what a surprise
18:32:43 <kmc> haskell isn't classless or stateless
18:33:09 <kmc> Haskell is sort of like Scheme and C++ in that people usually mean "the tiny subset I learned in school"
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18:33:45 <kmc> there are like a dozen different mutable variable types in the std lib
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18:34:00 <kmc> plus the thing where laziness itself is based on mutating state
18:35:33 <nortti> why must netsurf compile process start from begining every time I start it again after installing some dependency part of it neede?
18:35:52 <elliott> that's just a detail of the operational implementation of laziness in terms of an imperative language
18:36:11 <elliott> it's not really fundamental to the nature of sharing as an operational detail, let alone haskell's denotational semantics
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18:37:35 <kmc> eh I think it's fundamental to the nature of sharing as an operational guarantee
18:37:52 <kmc> when you force evaluation it will be fast or slow depending on whether that value was already forced before
18:37:55 <kmc> that constitutes state
18:38:13 <kmc> sure, it doesn't have to be implemented by overwriting thunks in place with forwarding pointers or w/e
18:38:15 <elliott> sharing is really just about mumble mumble graphs
18:38:25 <kmc> yeah but the state of the graph changes as you perform pure evaluations
18:38:52 <elliott> well, also the kind of mutation involved is mutating a thing to its equal
18:39:01 <Jafet> kmc, yeah but who cares about performance
18:39:01 <elliott> which is a far cry from what is generally considered mutable state
18:39:11 <Jafet> @quote abstract.research
18:39:12 <lambdabot> Jafet says: Haskell is an abstract research language used only in academia, education, banking, stock trading, circuit design, embedded systems, cryptography, operating systems research, bioinformatic
18:39:12 <elliott> as in you can formulate it in terms that don't admit any sort of observable "change"
18:40:12 <kmc> we should probably take "phone apps" off the list
18:43:08 <kmc> Blub combines the theoretical beauty of Haskell with practical, real-world features like scalable concurrent IO, a C function interface, good Unicode support, and a large base of libraries
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18:45:21 <kmc> Don't settle for uncompromising purity — use mutable state when you really need it. We even let you mutate multiple variables in an atomic transaction. Put that in Haskell's pipe and smoke it!
18:46:11 <elliott> kmc: fyi two spaces after a dot is sin
18:46:18 <kmc> god will strike me down
18:46:50 <kmc> I should actually go through with this idea next Apr 1
18:47:22 <kmc> make a super twitter bootstrappy website for this language
18:48:39 <Sgeo> kmc, that reads like a thing that's advertising Haskell
18:49:00 <Sgeo> I could have sworn I've seen something like "Imagine Haskell but with X, Y, Z practical things... it's Haskell"
18:49:07 <kmc> http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/132/thatsthejoke.jpg
18:49:15 <kmc> yeah it's a joke I have made before
18:49:24 <kmc> maybe someone else did it too, it's p. obvious
18:49:25 <lambdabot> chromatic says: My productivity increased when Autrijus told me about Haskell's trace function. He called it a refreshing desert in the oasis of referential transparency.
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18:50:43 <kmc> let yolo = unsafePerformIO
18:50:47 <kmc> yolo jokes are still fresh right
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18:51:23 <Sgeo> kmc, I could have been remembering you telling it previously
18:51:27 <olsner> I suspect the people who said yolo have moved on to saying something else now
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18:52:08 <kmc> they've all died of drug overdoses
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18:59:08 <Sgeo> Who TF is it that hates freenode so much?
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19:03:10 <nortti> http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=74
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19:29:35 <Sgeo> "An undersized window could be leveraged to mislead the user as to the origin of a document simply by carefully truncating the hostname"
19:30:15 <zzo38> I think you would still need to know what font is used and other settings though
19:30:28 <Sgeo> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581313
19:31:05 <zzo38> Resizing also has to be enabled.
19:31:26 <zzo38> Furthermore, there are settings for the address bar, whether or not the protocol is displayed, for example.
19:32:44 * Sgeo reads http://argante.sourceforge.net/concept.html
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19:57:24 <Sgeo> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=561177
19:59:09 <nortti> actually, why is it even there?
19:59:20 <Jafet> Do they really have 500000 tickets
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20:06:03 <JesseH> My language is getting somewhere. ^_^ Thanks for all the support.
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20:10:27 <Deewiant> nortti: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162020
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20:12:52 <nortti> anyone here use netsurf on framebuffer?
20:14:37 <elliott> I know the answer to that already
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20:14:55 <kmc> is the answer 'yes, nortti'
20:15:25 <elliott> it was the less smartass version of that answer
20:16:49 <nortti> has anyone at least tried?
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20:22:07 <kmc> get a better dumpster computer
20:22:48 <nortti> I'm not on my t20, I'm on t61p
20:23:28 <kmc> i was using a T61 as my main machine 6 months ago
20:23:39 <kmc> with x and xmonad and chrome
20:23:41 <elliott> did you use netsurf on framebuffer
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20:28:12 <nortti> too bad I don't the t61p
20:30:03 <Sgeo> kmc, CORS has moved on from 2011 afaict
20:30:33 <kmc> do they hove CORS Lite now
20:30:54 <Sgeo> CORS doesn't send cookie data by default, which apparently was a Microsoft objection
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20:31:06 <Sgeo> Cross-origin request sharing
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20:56:28 <Sgeo> (users of Internet Explorer 8 will have unexpected trouble visiting http://www.google.com/search?q=<script>
20:59:09 <kmc> Internet Explorer 8 is known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects, and other reproductive harm
21:00:46 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what will it do?
21:01:45 <Sgeo> Trigger IE8's XSS filter into blocking <script> tags
21:04:39 <zzo38> Can IE8's XSS filter be disabled?
21:04:53 <Sgeo> I think the server can send a header to disable it
21:05:06 <Sgeo> (As well as probably a client-side UI option)
21:05:09 <zzo38> No I mean can the client be configured to disable it for certain servers
21:05:24 <Sgeo> Don't know if it allows doing that for specific servers
21:05:52 <Sgeo> But it's a security vulnerability in and of itself, if attacker can block specific scripts on the page from running
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21:07:15 <elliott> is that person from that trains channel i hear about
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21:19:55 <Sgeo> kmc, that epilogue...
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21:54:21 <kaus> is there a python to brainfuck converter
21:54:39 <Bike> You could chain python->c and c->brainfuck.
21:55:23 <Bike> brainfuck's support for iterators is notoriously lacking, elliott
21:55:27 <kaus> challening stuff.....would like to peak through the code
21:55:27 <JesseH> elliott, I think that is his business. :3
21:55:45 <Bike> you could just read a regular compiler
21:55:50 <Bike> i guarantee you it will be challenging
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21:58:29 <mnoqy> wow elliott way to scare off jesseH
22:00:57 <elliott> kaus: anyway I seriously doubt any such thing exists
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22:01:24 <pikhq_> It's not especially good, but nevertheless.
22:01:26 <kaus> thanks for the info guys
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22:03:05 <tromp> where is C->brainfuck compiler?
22:03:25 <FreeFull> Just write an x86 emulator in brainfuck
22:03:30 <FreeFull> And then you don't need any compilers
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22:04:11 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/C2BF
22:04:25 <elliott> there's also a gcc backend, but you'd have to ask ais523 for it
22:04:31 <fizzie> "Where we're going, we don't need compilers."
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22:05:12 <kaus> FreeFull: you mean to write x86 assembler to brainfuck compiler?
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22:08:35 <kmc> elliott: what's this about trains
22:08:47 <kmc> Sgeo: I didn't read the Tangled Web epilogue yet, if that's what you're talking about
22:09:02 <elliott> 22:06:52 -!- Kawata [~NightKawa@pool-71-126-14-101.bflony.east.verizon.net] has left #esoteric ["I LIKE TRAINS"]
22:09:12 <Bike> oh, that's the song
22:09:13 <elliott> and i hear about some trains channel that kmc, shachaf, probably other people?? are in
22:09:24 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkKJfcBXcw
22:09:29 <kmc> #cslounge-trains
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22:10:13 <elliott> yes i was asking if they were from there
22:10:16 <elliott> it was what you might call
22:10:24 <elliott> half because it's not really funny
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22:12:26 <fizzie> The freenode server, it is not a respond.
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22:13:44 <Vorpal> well they said something about DDoS in an earlier wallops iirc
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22:20:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't use the round robin?
22:23:34 <Vorpal> Hm, anyone tried a Befunge with rational funge-space? As in, allowing something like 3/5th of a funge cell in step. You could default all non-integer cells to space, (but still be settable with the normal instructions)
22:23:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, Deewiant: know if anyone tried that?
22:24:08 <myname> Vorpal: what are the benefits?
22:24:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: It doesn't do DNS.
22:24:36 <Vorpal> myname, a more complicated language? None really but it might allow some interesting skipping mechanics
22:25:11 <myname> you mean you just don't make one step but several?
22:25:19 <Vorpal> well there is that already
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22:26:08 <myname> it'd be interesting if you could step x/8 wide and make bitshifting to get the next instruction
22:26:27 <Vorpal> but if you put delta to 2/3, you could insert additional instructions instead, that would skip some of the integer ones in new ways
22:26:50 <Vorpal> myname, how do you mean
22:27:01 <Vorpal> I was thinking any ratio
22:27:11 <myname> i think i don't understand you
22:27:21 <Vorpal> so program could switch from 2/3 to 7/92 or whatever
22:28:09 <Vorpal> myname, anyway I don't understand what you mean with bitshifting to get the next instruction
22:28:16 <Vorpal> isn't that just an implementation detail
22:29:00 <Vorpal> from an implementation POV it would simply change from a map from x,y -> value where x and y are integers to one where x and y are rational numbers
22:29:05 <myname> my idea would be like: 12 is [49_10,50_10] which is [00110001_2,00110010_2]
22:29:22 <Vorpal> myname, I don't get it, is this from the program point of view?
22:29:41 <Vorpal> what is your notation for a stack? I normally use the one from the Funge-98 spec
22:29:43 <myname> you could now make 4/8 steps to have 00110001_2,00010011_2,00110010_2 as instructions
22:30:03 <Taneb> Aaargh, I understand both of you but can explain neither point of view
22:30:09 <Taneb> They are very different ideas
22:30:10 <Vorpal> How would that fit in one ASCII char
22:30:56 <Vorpal> in my idea, x would take (dxp dxq dyp dyq) instead of (dx dy)
22:31:15 <Taneb> Vorpal, myname's idea is that you can be half on one tile, half on another
22:31:25 <Taneb> myname, Vorpal's idea is that you can be between tiles
22:31:28 <Vorpal> Taneb, and it would interpolate the instruction?
22:31:45 <Vorpal> Taneb, my idea is just that the fungespace is not I^2 but Q^2
22:31:46 <Taneb> Vorpal, it would take the second half of one and the first half of another
22:32:00 <myname> but how to define what is between tiles?
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22:32:10 <Vorpal> myname, using p and g?
22:32:37 <Taneb> myname, I don't think you would be able to when writing the program
22:32:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, yeah
22:32:46 <Taneb> But you could easily when in the program
22:32:56 <Taneb> As Vorpal said, using p and g
22:33:12 <Vorpal> myname, anyway your granularity would depend on the funge cell size
22:33:30 <Vorpal> a 32-bit and 64-bit implementation would support different amounts there I presume
22:33:51 <Vorpal> Unless you stick to the rather boring Befunge-93
22:34:04 <Vorpal> IIRC the funge space is 8-bit in that, but I don't remember
22:34:33 <fizzie> If you remember correctly, but you don't remember.
22:35:24 <Vorpal> well I think both approaches has some merits
22:36:03 <Vorpal> Programming with myname's idea would certainly be more challenging, which is unusual for Befunge. IMO it is the easiest esolang to code in by far.
22:36:12 <Vorpal> Of the ones I tried anyway
22:36:33 <myname> well, befunge is hard in the way it only has a stack, but besides that i'd agree
22:36:38 <Vorpal> (again that is 98, haven't really used 93)
22:36:59 <fizzie> It has the whole playfield, not just a stack.
22:36:59 <Vorpal> myname, it has the massive fungespace as well
22:37:12 <fizzie> In 93 it's pretty tiny.
22:37:15 <Vorpal> which is at least 2^32*2^32
22:37:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't really count 93 personally
22:37:29 <myname> but i find writing brainfuck much easier
22:37:42 <myname> just because you can navigate between values so easy
22:37:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's still the default if you say "Befunge", IMO.
22:38:26 <Vorpal> right, that can be argued
22:38:36 <Vorpal> do you still mean K&R C when you say C?
22:38:47 <Vorpal> You probably don't mean C11, granted
22:39:01 <fizzie> C90 is still the default setting in many places, and that's even older.
22:39:02 <myname> Vorpal: you have to keep track to write them if you change them or to remove them from stack etc
22:39:03 <Vorpal> But I would say you probably mean C99, or the very least C89
22:39:21 <kmc> C94 for lyfe
22:39:30 <Vorpal> myname, also you can use the stack of stacks of course
22:39:43 <fizzie> myname: You can permanently keep a single value on stack, use that as the x coordinate for p/g, and there's your brainfuck tape.
22:40:12 <myname> fizzie: interesting approach
22:40:21 <Vorpal> kmc, isn't that the widechars thingy?
22:40:29 <myname> are there brainfuck interpreters in befunge?
22:40:37 <Vorpal> myname, fungot here has one
22:40:38 <fungot> Vorpal: if your code is unusual in that it allows random access? _.? i wouln't hire someone just because they let you define a ' ( b e c) d ( left-associative) (
22:40:44 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:41:01 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:41:01 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:41:22 <Vorpal> same second here, but I was before you on my end
22:41:49 <Vorpal> but you can check your bot
22:42:10 <olsner> fizzie was first here too
22:42:17 <Vorpal> elliott, well, what matters is what the bot saw
22:42:32 <fizzie> I won from fungot's viewpoint, too.
22:42:33 <fungot> fizzie: i'm sure there's some animal who makes a sound :p), it's just an omission? :( scheme-48s48.org? :)
22:42:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:43:11 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
22:43:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, when did you last update irc and fungot?
22:43:23 <fungot> Vorpal: and more plus the latin is a timeless language
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22:43:56 <Vorpal> and do you include data from the fungot style when making the fungot style?
22:43:56 <fungot> Vorpal: and more plus the latin is a timeless language. if only inequalities are supported... in non-r5rs systems, as a complete, it's actually some neat to see and for this honor that joe and jane average don't use linux
22:43:59 <fizzie> Anyway, lines 294-306 and 351-372 are approximatively the brainfuck interp.
22:44:04 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
22:44:14 <Vorpal> Also wow, those two last lines that fungot said started the same
22:44:15 <fungot> Vorpal: is. absorb it on my door, which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields nothing itself; it keeps being removed, the queen is a vain. yes is ticked). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...
22:44:56 <fizzie> I think I in fact keep both the brainfuck tape and instruction pointer on the (funge) stack, as the two top values.
22:45:11 <myname> i'd still love a programming game with befunge
22:45:32 <fizzie> And they haven't been updated since the initial generation.
22:45:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, you could do your Q^2, but define the value as the (rounded) bilinear interpolation from the four surrounding values. (Probably would be pretty pointless.)
22:46:25 <Vorpal> It would make it nice for texture lookup with g though!
22:47:07 <Vorpal> hm I should totally implement a GL fingerprint
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22:48:10 <Vorpal> Would be easy too, L - load shader, T - load texture, S - set shader variables, R - render frame
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22:48:35 <Vorpal> I guess V - load vertex data too
22:49:04 <Vorpal> Man, modern OpenGL is so easy
22:49:22 <fizzie> It's not very nice until you get to write the shaders in a Fungeoid language too.
22:49:41 <fizzie> Or was it monoids, I forget what's easy.
22:49:57 <Vorpal> monads aren't all that easy IMO
22:50:17 <elliott> it's monoids that are so easy
22:50:31 <fizzie> `run grep easy wisdom/*
22:50:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/monoids:Monoids are the easy version of categories.
22:50:34 <Vorpal> Ah, should look them up then
22:52:07 <Vorpal> Anyway, what would be really interesting, but rather problematic, would be a R² fungespace, or a C² even
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22:52:40 <Vorpal> Annoying uncomputable numbers though
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22:55:54 <fizzie> Incidentally, was there someone from Tampere here? (I was just wondering about our geographical coverage of Finland.)
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22:58:02 <fizzie> Maybe that was that ion dude.
22:58:13 <FreeFull> Am I the only one here from High Wycombe?
22:58:42 <mnoqy> what's high wycombe
22:58:51 <fizzie> I think it's some sort of a unit?
22:58:58 <fizzie> Maybe it's something related to capacitance.
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22:59:22 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to elliott.
22:59:27 <elliott> i'm a bit of a high wycombe
22:59:41 <mnoqy> is that a drug joke
23:00:50 <FreeFull> Used to be called Chepping Wycombe
23:01:18 <fizzie> "wyke, v.1. Obs. (Of obscure origin and meaning: not obviously connected with Old English wícan.)" (OED.)
23:01:54 <fizzie> One quotation: c1325 in G. L. Brook Harley Lyrics (1968) 60 "Ofte when y syke, wiþ care y am þourhsoht when y wake, y wyke, of serewe is al mi þoht."
23:02:40 <elliott> i sing that song every day
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23:05:41 <fizzie> I think I'll sleeb too, nights. (Have to wake up early tomorrow to socialize a bit, it's a day.
23:05:44 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_day#Dates_around_the_world man, that day gets arranged at every which day around the world.
23:06:23 <kmc> "Will Bitcoin Change How Kids Learn to Count?"
23:06:27 -!- bengt_ has joined.
23:07:21 <Bike> "Last Sunday of May (sometimes first Sunday of June if it's Pentecost)" holidays r dum
23:09:11 <elliott> wow there is an actual wired article
23:09:21 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
23:09:37 <Bike> is it serious?
23:09:50 <elliott> thankfully chromium crashes when i open it
23:10:03 <elliott> (please buy me a new computer)
23:10:29 <kmc> it's barely about bitcoin it's just some generalized gripes about Kids These Days, with "Bitcoin" tacked on to sex it up
23:10:45 <pikhq_> Cause Bitcoin is the new hotness.
23:10:49 <Bike> have you seen all the photoshops of the TIME cover
23:10:59 <kmc> i saw one that was pretty good
23:11:30 <Bike> no, they had a very Kids These Days cover and people were mocking it
23:12:04 <mnoqy> i was quickly glancing through here and i misread "mocking" as "smoking" and i had to do a double take
23:12:27 <kmc> https://twitter.com/EARNEST_CYBORG9/status/332589668577202176/photo/1 was the one i saw
23:12:35 <Sgeo> I just learned of a way to fix a security hole I had while not needing to break my API's contract
23:12:41 * Sgeo is a derp for not seeing it sooner
23:12:43 <Bike> elliott: http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/518bb62fecad042b6b000000/heres-the-new-time-magazine-cover-about-how-millennials-will-save-us-all.jpg
23:12:46 <kmc> smoking a copy of Time may give you cancer but that's still better than reading it
23:13:03 <mnoqy> i cant believe someone would make that thing
23:13:11 <Bike> big daddy dronemaster, not bad
23:13:12 <mnoqy> the one bike linked i mean
23:13:13 <elliott> Bike: more like the meme generation Am I rihGHTE?? ?
23:13:41 <Bike> i think "millenial" would be preferable to that elliott
23:13:54 <kmc> smash the gerontocracy
23:14:12 <Bike> uh kmc you're like ninety years old in elliott years? you are the man
23:14:42 <elliott> even older in mnoqy years. 100?
23:14:53 <Bike> anyway the more fun thing making fun of it i saw was a collection of "kids these days" covers from the last fifty years or so, all unedited
23:15:14 <Bike> there was one about "the video generation" that had a bunch of people with huge-ass 80s video cameras
23:15:58 <Bike> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/static/img/upload/2013/05/09/video_.JPG ah here
23:16:09 <Bike> wow, how did i not notice the exercise getup
23:16:40 <kmc> the girl in the front?
23:16:47 <kmc> she looks like an anime character
23:17:04 <Bike> man those legwarmers
23:17:14 <kmc> Bike: do you have a link to the full collection
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23:19:53 <Bike> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/05/me-generation-time/65054/
23:21:00 <Bike> " It's like doing a study of toddlers and declaring those born since 2010 are Generation Sociopath: Kids These Days Will Pull Your Hair, Pee On Walls, Throw Full Bowls of Cereal Without Even Thinking of the Consequences"
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23:22:48 <Bike> ok confession time
23:23:00 <Bike> because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve
23:23:06 <Bike> and everybody like reproduced at the same time
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23:23:57 <Bike> holy shit, the quote about dow
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23:28:26 <Bike> darn bratty kids don't understand making a living :-(
23:29:17 <kmc> "Whether his art is any good or not, my artist friend on food stamps contributes more to society than the traders at Lehman brothers, by simply not wrecking the global financial system."
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23:32:01 <kmc> did you see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4YyI6_y6kw "The video is generated by sending the left and right channels of the music you are hearing to an oscilloscope in XY-mode."
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23:36:09 <Bike> kmc: darn was hoping for real oscilloscope
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23:49:20 <elliott> "Because many display devices have finite resolution limits" -- Google
23:49:32 <elliott> slightly worried that google have a secret infinite resolution display they're not telling us about
23:50:05 <Bike> what would that even mean
23:50:12 <Bike> has google gone post-quantum
23:50:35 <elliott> i don't want to know what it means
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23:53:38 <elliott> okay I am sick to death of chrome freezing for no reason when I open specific pages
23:53:57 <Phantom___Hoover> maybe it's something to do with the million billion tabs you have open
23:55:01 <Bike> what kind of tabs does an elliott have open
23:55:18 <kmc_> vector display has a sort of infinite resolution
23:55:20 <elliott> and they freeze the browser
23:55:23 <elliott> and if i open those pages later
23:55:24 <Bike> yes but what are those tabs!
23:55:31 <elliott> it's nothing specific it just
23:55:33 <Bike> what is the shit!
23:55:42 <Bike> ok i'm not asking about your freezing i just want to know what you have open
23:55:45 <elliott> why are you so interested in my browsing habits Bike!
23:55:48 <Bike> your freezing can go fuck itself imo
23:56:45 <elliott> are you obsessed with me Bike
23:57:06 <Bike> ti's just natural bikely curiosity
23:57:57 <Bike> don't make this weird
23:59:02 <Phantom___Hoover> i keep forgetting, has anyone managed to shoehorn a 'village bicycle' joke into this channel
23:59:39 -!- kmc_ has changed nick to kmc.
23:59:43 <Bike> by which i mean no because this channels' sense of humor is terrible?