00:00:16 you're terrible 00:00:28 and i'm this channel. checkmate 00:00:38 we can all be terrible together 00:01:00 i hate you, you hate me, we're an awful family 00:02:35 -!- elliott has set topic: we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 00:14:21 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 00:14:36 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:17:03 you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That 00:17:17 they follow the RFC 00:17:40 look if i know anything about programming it's that no one follows the standard 00:17:55 what's your secret, god 00:18:15 maybe god just smites anything with too different a translation. 00:18:26 billions of uppity prokaryotes smited every day 00:29:19 -!- Lumpio_ has changed nick to Lumpio-. 00:32:13 -!- Guest36943 has quit (Changing host). 00:32:14 -!- Guest36943 has joined. 00:32:18 -!- Guest36943 has changed nick to SirCmpwn. 00:34:42 Bike: god is the only person who can enforce MUST NOTs 00:34:56 they should rename MUST NOT to WHY NOT TRY 00:36:09 OpenBSD is still putting out songs :) 00:36:21 openbsd still committing crimes against music 00:36:53 http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html 00:37:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:37:53 THOU SHALT NOT 00:38:00 00:17:03: you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That 00:38:12 hello 00:38:25 well isn't that, like, the first thing you have to develop to self-replicate 00:38:43 no first you need to write the tests 00:38:45 Pond-erosa Puff wouldn't take no guff 00:38:57 stop doctor whoing sgeo 00:39:07 Well, that depends if you buy the RNA world thing 00:39:09 i told you to watch farscape, fucking watch it, it's way better 00:39:15 in which case RNA would be first 00:39:15 Pond-erosa Puff has nothing to do with Doctor Who 00:39:22 THE POINT STILL STANDS 00:39:37 Well, you also told me to stop reading Homestuck. 00:39:40 but i don't see why cell membraney things couldn't have come around first, at least hypothetically 00:39:43 Which, I guess I did. 00:39:57 more like homestuck stopped reading you (think about it) 00:40:15 Sgeo, see, fate wants you to do what i say 00:40:26 anyway the level of variation is interesting, mitochondria and plastids have slightly different schemes 00:40:31 as do a few obscure fungi and things like that 00:41:00 ...when did fungi diverge from everything else 00:41:20 roughly a fucking long time ago 00:41:34 (iunno, cambrian maybe) 00:41:46 What OpenBSD song should I listen to? 00:41:56 cambrian's a pretty good guess for when anything that fundamental happened imo 00:42:03 it is the cambrian and there is time for evolving 00:42:13 Sgeo, the farscape one 00:43:16 "around 1,500 million years ago" says wikipedia 00:43:25 so way precambrian oops 00:47:27 * Sgeo might go start reading Watchmen 00:50:43 are you just trying to make me hate you 00:50:46 because mission 00:50:47 fucking 00:50:49 accomplished 00:51:13 not a watchman fan? 00:54:08 no he's just COMMITTED to not watching farscape even though i've told him a thousand times 00:54:40 i am forced to conclude that he has an inverted sense of good 00:55:06 antimoral 01:02:14 -!- variable has joined. 01:02:14 -!- ?unknown? has set topic: is now the focus of a legal battle between Pull My Finger and iFart | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | I +JmU UTF-7 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 01:04:05 -!- comex` has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:04:07 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:04:09 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:05:55 -!- comex has joined. 01:06:56 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:07:14 -!- myndzi has joined. 01:07:32 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:07:37 That doesn't seem a proper conclusion given the available premises. 01:07:48 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 01:09:08 zzo38, ok look 01:09:15 premise: farscape is good 01:09:23 premise: doctor who is fucking awful these days 01:09:43 premise: one will tend to watch things that are good, and avoid things that are bad 01:09:55 premise: sgeo watches doctor who and does not watch farscape 01:09:56 q. 01:09:57 e. 01:09:58 d. 01:10:08 I dispute premises 2 and 3 01:10:42 Phantom_Hoover, if I had time I would watch Farscape 01:10:50 ...it occurs to me that I do have time. 01:11:06 I don't know about premises 1 and 2, but it can be a matter of opinion or of context, and there are other reasons too so 3 is not perfect either. Also, different people might like different thing, even if one is good otherwise. 01:11:26 you have the time you are spending watching doctor who where are you not understanding this 01:11:29 your syllogism's showing some serious holes phantom!! 01:11:36 Bike: I agree. 01:11:50 premise: i disagree and i am right 01:11:54 Phantom_Hoover, I will watch more Farscape. 01:12:01 Phantom_Hoover: I especially disagree with the conclusion that premise 3 applies to sgeo 01:12:03 Although does Amazon keep track of watched videos? 01:12:11 it's been a long time since I assumed sgeo to be a rational actor 01:12:34 If not, that would make it annoying to keep track of which ep I'm on, unless I stick with Hulu 01:12:57 :( 01:13:08 What have I done that's so irrational? 01:15:39 -!- augur has joined. 01:15:57 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:18:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:55:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:57:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 01:57:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:10:11 -!- augur has joined. 02:14:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:17:13 * Sgeo wonders if PH would rather him watch Farscape or finish DS9 02:19:02 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:19:19 -!- carado has joined. 02:19:46 -!- Bike has joined. 02:26:29 -!- carado_ has joined. 02:26:31 -!- carado has quit (Read error: No route to host). 02:26:46 -!- augur has joined. 02:51:54 Bike: teach me about china 02:52:42 what do u want 2 kno 02:53:00 well i just realised i have no idea how communist china came to be a thing and that's pretty embarrassing! 02:53:05 i know like 0 history 02:53:13 中華人民共和国? 02:53:32 elliott: well ok lessee 02:53:34 i also know like 0 chinese alt. japanese 02:53:35 中華人民共和国(笑) 02:53:59 So I'm not gonna type it in right, sue me. 02:54:00 in 1910 china was ruled by the qing dynasty, who were foreign (fsvo "foreign") manchus ruling over the han 02:54:19 in 1911 the xinhua revolution happened and the monarchy got fucked 02:54:30 No I'm laughing at the fact that they call themselves a democracy 02:54:38 i skimmed the wikipedia article ``chinese civil war'' and it seems that roughly half of it is usa. even in chinese history there is no escape 02:54:46 "is usa"? 02:54:52 things the usa did. 02:54:56 oh well yeah 02:54:57 They don't. They call themselves a People's Republic. 02:55:01 (in china, hth) 02:55:13 okay continue 02:55:18 the republic was stable for about five minutes before the "warlord era" started, which was fucking crazy 02:55:22 You'll notice there is no 民主主義 in there. 02:55:32 lots of generals/warlords/etc ruling oer their own areas, killing people, etc 02:55:47 love those five minute republics 02:56:00 Republic, democracy, close enough 02:56:04 They probably translated it wrong. 02:56:26 If making a contest for text adventure game, and people can vote on the different things about the game, what should be the possible things to vote on? 02:56:29 by like uh, 1930 probably, there was a "«'stable'»" group called the Kuomintang, or KMT for short 02:56:34 and there were also commies (not yet under mao) 02:56:35 In modern times a "republic" is a non-monarchal state. 02:56:43 And they are definitely not under a monarchy. 02:57:00 then japan invaded (oh shit!!) and set up a puppet state in manchuria (i.e. the northern... half... kinda) 02:57:02 * Sgeo goes to watch some Farscape 02:57:19 what's up with you japan 02:57:21 the KMT and communists "cooperated" to get the japanese out, which they didn't do 02:57:42 elliott: Imperial Japan was basically a "fuck you we wanna conquer the world" state. 02:57:56 pikhq: we did that too 02:57:56 then WWII happened (or like, it was part of WWII, or well fuck history) and japan lost as you may have heard 02:57:58 imo we were better at it 02:58:09 Bike: michael bay told me all about that 02:58:17 the soviet union declared war on japan and - i want to emphasize this - invaded manchuria and took it over in eleven days 02:58:24 what was the kmt's deal also 02:58:42 i hear they're taiwan now (file under: things i read on wikipedia five minutes ago) 02:58:58 the kmt were at that time a semi-fascist, capitalistish, democratishsorta party that the West liked 02:59:09 Read: "not communist". 02:59:11 so like america then :-D :-D :-D 02:59:23 anyway so the soviet union invaded the north and as you might expect they were more sympathetic to the communists 02:59:53 and then the chinese civil war happened, again, and a bajillion people died and the KMT retreated to Taiwan 03:00:16 (and taiwan's history is itself kind of crazy) 03:00:36 and then just like, communist party said "job done, time for Complete Communism" and that was it?? 03:00:49 oh, i missed the long march. well back in the 30s the KMT had some big anti-commie campaign and the communists went on this horrible grueling march during which Mao was leaderful and that's how he got into power. 03:01:13 note to self: help out with march, become communist leader??? 03:01:15 Well, yeah, after pushing the KMT out they were more or less in control, insofar as you can be in control of an area the size of China less than a decade after the most violent war in recorded history. 03:01:39 but they didn't even do the communist ritual or anything??? 03:01:51 no WONDER china is such a mess [laugh track] 03:02:11 if you want to get into history in the communist era i really don't know that as well (which is saying something) 03:02:39 but like the great leap forward happened, durin which mao and other leaders did some increeeeedibly stupid things, such as using lysenko's theories (years after the soviets had kind of abandoned them) 03:02:57 stupid things killed like what, 50 million people probably, from starvation etc 03:03:03 imo that kinda sucked. 03:03:55 Then after that Mao was like "food? NO man what you need is ENCOURAGEMENT" and the cultural revolution happened, which like burned down temples and stuff but got those kids PUMPED about COMMUNISM that's RAD! 03:04:00 it's a good thing nobody has invented a time machine because imo the guilt re: all the stuff you have to spend a lot of effort going to fix would be totally lame 03:04:21 did you read that story "wikihistory" that was on boing boing like thirty years ago 03:04:24 wow i'm feeling pumped about communism already 03:04:30 uh yes i think so 03:04:38 if i did i didn't get it from boing boing though 03:04:58 you might remember that the AsianAvenger guy in it was concerned about a pre-xinhua thing called the Taiping Rebellion 03:05:22 in the 1800s some guy declared himself to be jesus's brother and started a rebellion that got uh... "more people than WWI" killed roughly 03:05:43 basically the qing dynasty was utterly fucked there for a while 03:05:49 i think the main problem is that china has too many people 03:05:52 if they had fewer people 03:05:58 then less people would die when bad things happen 03:06:14 well elliott if you'd been paying attention you'd notice that for a while they've been trying their damnedest to reduce the number of people! 03:06:40 bike.... 03:06:41 something about too many dudes and not enough gal's. cant wait till they all die off 03:06:42 as if i would pay attention 03:06:55 "that'll be exciting" 03:07:01 good because i made that all up for a fantasy story 03:07:10 china fanfiction 03:07:16 !!!!!!!!why would you do that 03:07:20 i want my history REAL 03:07:36 -!- Gregor has joined. 03:08:08 i should probably mention joseph needham i guess 03:08:16 need ham??? 03:08:21 he was like a chemist or whatever that wrote this thirty volume set on the history of technology in china 03:08:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:08:48 basically the reason for that "wow ancient china actually had a pretty good thing going" you hopefully had in school (before that it was racister probably??) 03:09:04 well not ancient but like, old. 03:09:07 "ancient"'s a dumb word 03:09:15 good ol' china 03:09:25 man i honestly don't remember anything about ancient hcina in school 03:09:30 but i like paid zero attention to history 03:09:42 well... i can't blame you i mean there's a lot of it 03:09:44 all i remember is like infinite numbers of fucking tudor king shits 03:09:48 over and over 03:09:49 for months 03:09:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:10:05 successfully ensured i would never care about a king of england ever 03:10:15 maybe i should sum up some "key facts" you can use to pretend to be informed to your newsreading pals 03:10:36 like... tibet and the northwest (xinjiang) have been independentish at various points 03:10:47 bike 03:10:49 i don't have any pals 03:10:51 i think i have to take an american history sometime but uuugh why american history that's probably soooo boring 03:10:55 oh right what's it with tibet 03:11:00 well uh 03:11:05 tibet was a theocracy in the mountains 03:11:12 as you might expect they weren't like... important 03:11:17 more boring than tudor king shits??? quite possibly 03:11:38 only theocracy ruled by a llama 03:11:43 World's First 03:11:54 at some point the british got in there and were like "well, yeah, we'll control your diplomacy or whatever" and the leaders were like "ok"? maybe had a little war, i dunno, i don't think tibet's had a significant military since the 1300s 03:12:17 in like 1950 the PRC (that's communist china) took over and well there's been "some argument" about that 03:12:25 i hear it's a bit unpopular yes 03:12:35 why did they take over (given: theocracy in the mountains; not... important) 03:12:45 i guess probably: communism 03:12:51 yeah i'm not sure really 03:13:03 theocommunism 03:13:10 best of both worlds: sharing AND llama 03:13:23 anyway i want to mention that the northwest of china is worth remembering; for one it has a huge muslim population 03:13:44 so like, keep that in mind, china isn't all "ancient buddhist wisdom" or whatever 03:13:53 ancient muslim wisdom 03:14:04 right 03:14:57 hm, i guess they took over kind of because it was in a dumb limbo situation and just... why not, it had been part of china at various points anyway 03:16:29 good a reason as any 03:16:33 that's most of what i got. way more interesting than tudor shits imo 03:17:55 "I also have this machine plugged into a Kill-a-Watt I had bought when I thought I was going to do the Tweet-A-Watt project (unfinished because I accidentally crushed the XBee under a keg)" 03:18:48 btw whats a tudor shit 03:18:50 im uncultured 03:19:26 probably a shit by the tudor dynasty? i never had british history in school 03:19:50 i think there's an HBO programme about tudor shits 03:21:38 "Having a tudor shit in a tudor robe #classic" 03:21:56 Mar 7, 2010 – Dane tudor shit... Dane tudor shit... View Full Size Image. Details; Share. Views: 444. Score: -3. Title: Dane tudor shit... Uploader: RoguePube ... 03:22:01 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:22:17 elliott what do they teach you 03:23:39 https://twitter.com/mkpepper/status/244427490968350720/photo/1 03:23:53 did we stop nutsplatting 03:24:11 ye. now we're tudor shitting 03:24:20 420 shit tudors everyday 03:24:49 what's... nutsplatting 03:25:39 what does it sound like 03:39:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:40:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:41:23 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest29721. 03:47:53 shachaf: hichaf 03:58:05 hi kmc 03:58:09 * shachaf is back in CA 04:02:04 how is it 04:02:22 It's good hth 04:06:41 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:06:48 Any reason for the hichaf? 04:07:04 Also I should probably hilight .*chaf\b.* 04:16:46 no reason really 04:16:49 just sayin' hi 04:18:57 yoeeganawg 04:19:08 -!- Bike_ has joined. 04:36:50 hey what happened the topic I set 04:36:51 netsplit? 04:36:56 -!- elliott has set topic: we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 05:01:31 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 05:14:51 shachaf: btw what's a hero 05:16:29 hero solves triangles and makes jets and doesn't afraid of anything, iirc 05:17:39 shachaf: elliott thinks i should be more like you. can you teach me how? 06:13:13 -!- Taneb has joined. 06:14:18 -!- fungot has joined. 06:40:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:03:14 Have you seen ifMUD? 07:08:44 Is there also an elseMUD 07:08:45 > 07:08:46 ? 07:09:03 uninteractive fiction mud 07:09:25 you just sit and watch some NPCs talk about nonexistent real lives and fight monsters and roleplay furry ex or whatever happens in muds 07:09:43 (endMUD) 07:10:12 Bike, there's a few of those doing that 07:10:30 There's a company called BBC that makes a few nice ones 07:10:43 Bike: i'd watch 07:10:52 you're a sick man, elliott. 07:10:57 sick boy 07:11:02 yes 07:11:15 i like "furry ex" 07:12:55 gross!! 07:13:40 show of hands who has a furry ex 07:15:20 What if your hands fell off? 07:15:52 presumably you would no longer be as concerned with displaying your furry ex status 07:16:39 zzo38: then you cannot vote 08:09:54 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:10:56 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:12:36 -!- heroux has joined. 08:22:15 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:44:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:02:28 fizzie dude: Yeah, it was me. 09:03:47 (?) 09:03:48 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:23:31 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti. 09:24:19 -!- madb4rd2 has joined. 09:27:16 -!- madb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:28:29 (!) 09:28:35 help 09:28:42 halp 09:31:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:33:50 -!- augur has joined. 09:36:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:37:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:45:36 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 09:55:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 09:55:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:01:29 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:03:52 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined. 10:14:10 "systemd, [...] is an all-devouring octopus monster about crawl out of the sea and eat Tokyo and spit it out as a giant binary logfile." 10:24:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:13:36 nortti, harsh words, does it deserve that? 11:14:30 Also I think my computer is not thermally sound, I'm compiling gcc at -j4, and CPU temp is at 73 C 11:14:31 Core 2: +73.0°C (high = +80.0°C, crit = +98.0°C) 11:14:36 sure it is fine, just 11:15:26 And the case fans are on max, that seems to prevent it from raising further 11:15:43 people just like to get upset about systemd because 11:15:48 it's terrible just like every part of linux is terrible 11:16:20 but i don't miss the seconds of my bootup process and the control/monitoring tools work just fine 11:16:34 But this is worrying, since I'm considering getting new case fans (one one them makes weird clicking noises). The one I'm looking at has slightly less airflow than my current one, so eeeh... 11:16:44 one of* 11:17:33 elliott, hm, I can't say I'm bothered with my current boot time enough to use systemd. Less than 30 seconds from grub to X login prompt is fine by me 11:18:22 Most of that is spent on DHCP anyway 11:19:40 i didn't switch to systemd because i cared about my boot time 11:19:45 i switched because my distro switched to it 11:19:59 Which distro do you currently use? 11:20:22 arch 11:20:29 Ah 11:20:58 the switch also eliminated all the "distro-specific" config stuff for things like the network and timezone and so on, which is nice, because it means the same way of configuring things will transfer if I switch to another distro 11:21:08 (that has also migrated) 11:21:15 Hm 11:21:27 systemd replaces cron, syslog and a few more doesn't it? 11:21:39 also i no longer have to add myself to random groups to get things working which is nice. 11:22:03 Vorpal: well, I think distros still ship cron, even though systemd has timer-y stuff which could replace it in theory 11:22:06 it does do the logging thing 11:22:20 (and yes the journal file it logs to is binary. but i don't care. the querying tools work fine.) 11:22:23 So it doesn't read standard crontab then? 11:22:26 it can also forward to syslog I hear 11:22:34 hm I thought consolekit or whatever handled the "random group" stuff 11:22:39 Vorpal: well, that *would* be pointless 11:22:43 why would you just roll cron into process 1? 11:23:04 elliott, I don't know, people seem to complain that systemd is doing too much anyway so meh 11:23:08 systemd is basically like OS X's launchd, if you know anything about it 11:23:17 I do like the principle of "one program does one thing, and does it well" 11:23:34 it doesn't matter how much a program does. nobody cares about that. and no system has followed the one tool for the job philosophy for the past several decades 11:23:39 I'm not much of an OS X expert no, but I understood it basically combines several services into one 11:23:46 something like upstart is already a big mess. it doesn't matter 11:23:58 yeah, I don't use upstart either, I'm on Debian 11:24:16 It is ubuntu that uses upstart 11:24:23 and yes, upstart is even more of a mess than systemd 11:24:36 I think Debian were planning to move to systemd or something too. 11:24:49 They are I think 11:25:04 another thing that is nice is that the services are not defined in massive hideous duplicated ad-hoc shell scripts 11:25:17 say what you like about ini files, they're a hell of a lot less mess. 11:25:20 Does systemd handle network too? Or does it leave that to network-manager or whatever? 11:25:41 it handles my network, yes 11:25:43 upstart files are quite nice too 11:26:24 i think it can like integrate with network manager or whatever 11:26:29 i just have 11:26:34 $ systemctl status dhcpcd@eth0.service 11:26:34 dhcpcd@eth0.service - dhcpcd on eth0 11:26:34 Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/dhcpcd@.service; enabled) 11:26:34 Active: active (running) since Sat 2013-05-11 13:30:02 BST; 22h ago 11:26:34 Process: 250 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/dhcpcd -q -w %I (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS) 11:26:37 Main PID: 311 (dhcpcd) 11:26:38 Hm, that will be annoying to transfer on my RPi when the time comes. It has static IP, servers an IPv6 tunnel and does crazy "use different routing tables for different local UIDs" to route one user through a VPN tunnel 11:26:40 CGroup: name=systemd:/system/dhcpcd@.service/dhcpcd@eth0.service 11:26:42 └─311 /usr/sbin/dhcpcd -q -w eth0 11:26:49 serves* 11:26:55 Hm 11:27:44 hm, nix switched to systemd. I wonder if it's matured at all since the last time I looked at it. 11:28:18 NixOS? Kind of cool, but iirc rather immature, a lot of missing packages and so on 11:28:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:28:40 i should just switch to windows or something. works for spj. 11:28:54 spj? 11:29:43 Anyway windows (win 7 at least) is much slower to boot than Linux from the same HDD. Usually takes minute from login screen until the OS is actually responsive. 11:30:33 simon peyton-jones. 11:30:53 Is it someone I should know of? 11:30:59 yes. 11:31:08 Okay, what is he known for then? 11:32:17 * oerjan prepares elliott for post-traumatic Vorpal contact treatment 11:32:37 .oO( sir vorpal kickass'o 11:32:45 imo ban vorpal 11:32:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Peyton_Jones 11:32:58 oerjan: you could kick him for not knowing who spj is. 11:33:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v oerjan. 11:33:11 lo, it is a sign. 11:33:24 I don't keep track of names really, why should I? 11:33:32 So he is a haskell guy, okay. 11:33:34 elliott: i suppose, but then i'd have to actually log into my nick first 11:34:24 Nice bowtie in that photo btw 11:34:25 anybody here reading goblins comic? 11:35:20 oerjan: ah, if only I had been opped... 11:36:35 ion dude: dude. 11:36:44 myname: my reading of goblins came to an abrupt stop at the point when Kore killed that dwarf child hth 11:37:49 why that? 11:38:22 it got a whole lot too dark for me at that point hth 11:39:07 well yeah, but that's part of what makes it this good 11:39:57 similarly, i took a year-long hiatus on oots after the familicide event. 11:40:30 i wasn't that far at oots 11:40:41 have to find some good way for reading it 11:41:03 when you say dark 11:41:07 there is no usable general webcomic reader for android :( 11:41:12 do you mean ~dark and edgy@~ 11:41:14 which is why i only mentioned the word, not who or what it involved. 11:41:16 s/@// 11:41:37 wait is myname nortti 11:41:46 who? 11:41:54 ok never mind 11:47:52 My language is getting somewhere. ^_^ Thanks for all the support. <-- #esoteric, the channel that splits off actual on-topic discussion. 11:51:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric The channel which splits off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 11:52:05 i sense an additional #esoteric 11:52:25 elliott: i think the discussion happened in #jesseh 11:52:46 not that i actually was there, mind you 11:53:41 i mean in the topic. 11:54:08 wait what hm 11:54:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel which splits off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 11:54:42 elliott: apparently webchat doesn't support including the actual channel in the /topic command 11:55:28 while in irssi you have to double it if you actually want it at the start of the topic 11:57:27 right 12:00:38 -!- zzo38 has joined. 12:05:56 -!- nooodl has joined. 12:08:39 `addquote ok confession time because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve and everybody like reproduced at the same time 12:08:43 quoting time 12:08:47 1035) ok confession time because of the whole "generation" thing i thought that kids were born in waves until i was like twelve and everybody like reproduced at the same time 12:09:39 `quote 12:09:39 `quote 12:09:40 `quote 12:09:41 `quote 12:09:41 `quote 12:09:44 409) God, I sure do hate Apple and their header files that only include the functions they're specified to. 12:09:44 850) so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is...typedef int f(float); 12:09:45 963) As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really. 12:09:45 112) how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 12:09:46 126) pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" 12:10:04 guy 12:10:05 s 12:10:10 when did i say 963 12:13:03 `pastequotes As Brainfuck derivatives 12:13:04 at approximately 963 quote standard time 12:13:10 oerjan: logs? 12:13:16 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4074 12:13:19 oops 12:13:26 `pastelogs As Brainfuck derivatives 12:14:25 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27970 12:14:42 wat 12:14:57 `pastelogs As Brainfuck derivatives 12:15:31 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12399 12:15:52 2013-03-02.txt:22:41:06: As Brainfuck derivatives go, it's not all that bad, really. 12:15:55 hth 12:16:13 what did i say it about 12:16:52 you know if fizzie was doing this he'd have had the answer in 30 seconds and told me what colour jumper i was wearing 12:17:00 i'm not impressed oerjan 12:17:39 Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Agony 12:17:50 at least I think 12:18:07 nortti: hey there, i was just planning to let Phantom_Hoover look it up himself for that comment 12:18:15 (just skimmed trough the logs from around the correct point) 12:18:48 evidently this was meant to damn with faint praise 12:20:10 it works! IT WORKS! 12:20:24 @tell Bike you know what suddenly seems really weird? almost every organism uses the exact same mapping from DNA codons to amino acids. What's Up With That <-- i would assume that it is because whenever an organism _does_ change it, suddenly a large number of its proteins stop working simultaneously hth 12:20:25 Consider it noted. 12:20:26 (it=netsurf framebuffer version trough sdl) 12:23:46 Another computer game idea I have is based on a diagram I remember that someone drew for me once. It was a directed graph; the nodes were drawn as faces, some of which had wavy lines above. The faces without wavy lines represented good monsters and the ones with wavy lines represented bad monsters. Probably additional kinds of pieces should be added, though. 12:23:53 ok, correction to above. it starts up, in a 800x600 box, with invisible text 12:27:57 If they are good should you still call them monsters? 12:28:21 Yes. 12:29:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: main is usually a course). 12:40:49 zzo38: and what is the game behind that? 12:41:15 myname: I don't know, but some game played on a directed graph, I suppose. 12:42:04 I think you can have a free category of a simple digraph which results in a thin category, and that is the same as a partial ordering. 12:42:06 there are plenty of them, even if most of them aren't presented as such 12:50:50 Presumably these directed graphs form the data of a level of the game, or there could be some additional data needed to make up a level too (such as time limits or starting inventory or whatever). 12:51:09 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:59:03 (I think only a free category of a directed acyclic graph is thin?) 12:59:26 (Unless you specifically make the other ones thin too, that is.) 12:59:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:02:00 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:14:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:27:45 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:28:16 I invented different bishop adjust rule: If you have exactly two bishops on board, both standing on the same color square, then bishops have the additional move of one spcae orthogonal; capturing is also permitted with this move. If used in FIDE chess, this might mean that it is possible in some circumstances that promoting to a queen won't give check but underpromotion to a bishop will give check. 13:43:45 -!- Tritonio has joined. 13:52:39 -!- carado_ has joined. 13:53:31 omfg catseye went down 13:53:48 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:55:15 -!- boily has joined. 13:55:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:56:19 Phantom_Hoover: yes. 13:56:36 the dark times are upon us once more 13:57:15 and i didn't find it anywhere else with google, either 13:57:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:57:48 oerjan: hi 13:57:57 btw cpressey's github is still up 13:58:01 presumably he is emailable and stuff 13:58:10 hm 13:58:23 hey guys 13:58:35 can i check if i'm banned in a channel without trying to join it 13:59:34 hi all from Québec City! 13:59:59 does quebec exist though 13:59:59 Phantom_Hoover: what channel is it 14:00:07 elliott, it's not even on freenode 14:00:09 have no fear 14:00:13 is it 14:00:19 #esoteric 14:00:36 yes 14:00:47 Phantom_Hoover: you are banned on #esoteric? why did no one tell me! 14:00:59 imo unban me 14:02:13 DONE HTH 14:02:22 nops are so easy, i wonder if they are monoids 14:02:34 yes 14:02:37 obviously 14:02:48 they're monoids under composition 14:02:57 indeed! 14:03:18 just like a category. 14:03:47 they're categories under monoids 14:06:11 -!- nooodl has joined. 14:06:27 does quebec exist though <-- i hear they are frequently trying to separate from canada, i assume they're tired of not existing. 14:07:00 who wants a bunch of french people to exist though 14:07:18 oerjan: btw I hope you will still love me if I spontaneously turn into conor mcbride overnight. 14:07:21 (there have been signs.) 14:07:36 oh. that may be a bit much to handle. 14:08:49 Phantom_Hoover: it's not quite exclusively French anymore. 20% of canada's population is from an ethnic minority. 14:09:42 (we have two Montréals going on: mainly non-French west of St-Laurent Blvd., and mainly French east of it.) 14:12:51 hm possibly montreal might exist, it's in the name 14:13:36 oerjan: it looks real. it feels real. but I fear it may only be a lavish illusion. 14:14:07 shocking 14:14:35 montreal is a place where everyone speaks french and is in a post-rock band 14:14:38 and i'm pretty sure no place can actually exist 14:14:45 the name is likely a clever indirection 14:14:49 misdirection? 14:14:54 same thing. 14:17:32 yes, says you, but you also says you from montreal. 14:17:38 Does hexham exist? 14:17:44 yes. 14:17:56 -!- esowiki has joined. 14:18:00 -!- esowiki has joined. 14:18:00 -!- esowiki has joined. 14:18:59 -!- esowiki has joined. 14:19:01 -!- glogbot has joined. 14:19:04 -!- esowiki has joined. 14:19:04 -!- esowiki has joined. 14:21:37 What is the mathematical structure called of the transit system of this game? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchessonamasstr 14:27:01 dunno 14:30:42 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 14:32:38 thoerjan 14:32:58 oerjan: What's a word that rhymes with oerjan? 14:33:15 no, what does not rhyme with oerjan hth 14:33:46 Please give me a word that rhymes with oerjan hth 14:34:09 I'm so used to different coding styles nowdays that I have trouble reading my own old C code. 14:35:22 Vorpal: You do? What styles did you use what did other used? 14:35:43 well, 14:36:00 there is the question of newline or not before {, how to indent, stuff like that 14:36:32 Which did you use? 14:37:31 I used the linux kernel coding convention basically, go look it up if you want, I'm kind of busy debugging this 14:38:58 There is also if when declaring a pointer variable, to put a space before or after or both sides of asterisk; I find all three ways confusing so I omit both spaces. 14:40:14 Often it is written like "int *x;" but this is confusing if there is an initialization value, since then it might seem to be initializing *x but actually it is the initial value of x not of *x. 14:42:11 What is your opinion of this? 14:42:33 I think the space-on-both-sides alternative happens when people switch between int* x or int *x too often and get confused 14:44:23 O, maybe that is what it is. Somehow I find space on neither sides to be clearest. What way do you use in your own C programs? 14:46:44 I don't know anymore 14:46:55 I think I used to do space before 14:47:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Everyone needs their space). 14:48:58 zzo38, I use type *var, *var2; and so on. The logical way is to put the * next to the variable name, since if you declare multiple variables separated with , type* var1, var2; would look confusing 14:49:10 since that would make var1 a pointer, but not var2 14:49:19 Times Square is the only neighborhood with zoning ordinances requiring building owners to display illuminated signs.[27] 14:49:41 Vorpal: I know that, which is why "int* x" is confusing. However, because of initialization values, "int *x" is also confusing. 14:49:47 Hm 14:49:51 Not to me, but okay 14:51:28 Also I'm more used to hg than bzr now 14:57:11 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:58:57 -!- Tritonio has joined. 15:09:52 -!- carado_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:09:58 -!- carado has joined. 15:11:45 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 15:16:08 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:24:08 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 15:24:31 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:24:46 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 15:24:46 -!- epicmonkey has quit (*.net *.split). 15:24:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit (*.net *.split). 15:26:07 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 15:29:06 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 15:29:39 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:29:50 -!- tromp has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 15:30:30 -!- Lymia has quit (Excess Flood). 15:30:39 -!- Lymia has joined. 15:31:17 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:31:37 -!- ggherdov has quit (Ping timeout: 670 seconds). 15:31:54 -!- ggherdov has joined. 15:34:01 -!- Tritonio has joined. 15:44:59 -!- Koen_ has joined. 15:54:22 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:10:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:15:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 16:21:58 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 16:26:06 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:33:11 -!- Guest29721 has changed nick to Grego. 16:33:14 -!- Grego has changed nick to Gregor. 16:33:22 Good typing, me X_X 16:34:11 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:35:11 #esoteric is the best channel 16:35:15 but ##English is the weirdest 17:01:01 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 17:03:48 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:13:25 Gregor-ian chants. 17:14:41 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:14:54 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:16:20 is that a double name, like Gregor-Ian Chants? 17:17:25 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:18:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:19:20 Probably. 17:40:57 I don't like the decision of GCC to not delete empty loops. for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++); should be deleted, in my opinion; if you want it to force not to delete, you should write: for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile; 17:41:23 Therefore I think such a statement should be added in C. 17:42:19 why isn't it deleted? 17:42:19 Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 17:43:28 GNU C doesn't delete it because you might put the loop to make it delay. I think that is not a good reason (it is also usually not the best way to make a delay); that is why I think there ought to be the statement which you can instead explicitly tell it not to delete the empty loop, like that. 17:43:34 Gregor: i miss mnoqy 17:43:41 Gregor: make mnoqy come back 17:44:00 I guess gcc has special rules for loops that look like delay loops 17:44:10 You can cause it to be optimized even less by declaring the variable ix as volatile too. 17:44:41 olsner: And I don't like that kind of things. What would you think? Maybe it should be an option? 17:52:08 My GCC does delete that loop. 17:52:26 http://sprunge.us/bUcS 17:52:38 The documentation says they don't want to make it delete that loop. Is the document wrong? 17:53:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:53:21 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 17:55:47 Perhaps they've decided not to maintain the distinction between loops that became empty after optimization, and loops that were written empty; and the documentation has become outdated as a result. Who knows. (Folks on #gcc?) 18:00:53 GNU C doesn't delete it because you might put the loop to make it delay. I think that is not a good reason (it is also usually not the best way to make a delay); that is why I think there ought to be the statement which you can instead explicitly tell it not to delete the empty loop, like that. <-- it is a reasonable way to create a delay in embedded code for some platforms 18:01:10 zzo38, there is not really any reason to write a loop like that normally though 18:01:23 Vorpal: Yes, in some case it is; I didn't mean that it is *never* the way to write the delay. 18:02:08 Still, I don't like that optimization and that is why I think there should be the command "volatile;" which can be used if you do want to tell it to not be deleted. 18:02:35 well they can't really add that to the C standard, a compiler intrinsic function would make more sense here 18:03:22 They can make it a extension when compiling in GNU mode, if you want to, though. 18:03:53 can you not just have ix volatile 18:04:22 Yes, that works too, but maybe you don't want to disable that many optimizations. (I did mention that.) 18:06:57 If ix is not volatile, but you write "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile;" but ix is not used at all afterward, then the compiler still has to ensure when writing the code surrounding the loop that it will execute the body 10000 times, even if it is empty. 18:10:22 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:13:28 -!- conehead has joined. 18:13:59 hm, why are you writing an empty loop anyway, or are you expecting this to appear from optimizations 18:14:15 if you don't want a busy loop i mean 18:14:42 *Damn* the wifi's being high latency right now. 18:14:49 zzo38: What does it mean to execute an empty body 10000 times? hth 18:15:04 I mean, shit, I'm actually getting notable predictions out of mosh right now. 18:16:06 Furthermore, if you write "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile(ix);" then I want it to ensure the value of ix is stored somewhere during the loop (possibly in a register, and it doesn't necessarily have to be retained after the loop), and "for(ix=0;ix!=10000;ix++) volatile(&ix);" ensures it is in RAM. 18:17:39 #define volatile(x) { volatile typeof(x) _x = x; } 18:17:40 shachaf: To compile the code to make such a body but do nothing; if you write a for block, if block, etc that contains only things that are optimized out, some of which are volatile, then it must compile a NOP instruction. Otherwise, it doesn't have to compile a NOP instruction. For example, "if(1) volatile;" should make a NOP instruction since the condition can be optimized out. 18:18:22 Like, I don't think "NOP instruction", like, means anything in the, like, semantics of C, man. 18:18:24 pikhq: I suppose it can work in a few cases like that. 18:18:26 hth 18:19:03 shachaf: x = x; 18:19:06 :) 18:20:24 "Last contact x seconds ago." Holy *shit* mosh is dealing with a high latency link at this point. 18:20:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:20:44 I guess I get to see how well its prediction works at least? 18:20:57 Which, really, is quite impressive. 18:21:14 pikhq: wlecmoe to every day for me? hth 18:21:17 Could be better, but then this is currently taking more time than packets to SPACE. 18:21:30 shachaf: I'm moshing on LAN here. 18:21:42 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:21:48 OK. 18:21:48 -!- DH____ has joined. 18:22:14 Somewhere, there is some ridiculous bufferbloat. 18:22:26 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 18:24:29 What else I mean is that for example, if you write "if(x) volatile;" then, if x is known at compile-time to be zero, it makes nothing; if x is known to be nonzero, it makes NOP; if the value of x is not known at compile-time, it compiles a "branch if zero" instruction with an offset of zero (if allowed by the target), and does not compile a NOP (unless branches with offset of zero is not allowed by the target, in which case it branches to the point 18:26:39 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:38:34 > (- 1) 18:38:39 mueval: ExitFailure 1 18:38:39 mueval: Prelude.undefined 18:41:00 > exitFailure >> undefined 18:41:06 mueval: ExitFailure 1 18:41:06 mueval: Prelude.undefined 18:55:28 -!- mnoqy has joined. 19:18:08 o.O there's an HTTP 2.0 in the works 19:18:46 as well as talks to use SPDY to replace HTTP 19:19:25 or maybe that's rather being considered for becoming HTTP 2.0 19:25:33 Current HTTP 2.0 spec is a copy of SPDY I think 19:26:29 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:26:40 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 19:26:54 Is Konqueror a more reasonable browser to use these days? Now that a derivative of KHTML is quite popular? 19:29:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqel0k0NzNU I think I understand sgeo a lot better now. 19:29:36 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:30:13 The fun part is a number of those worlds I haven't been to before I saw that video 19:30:24 Have seen the hand garden before though 19:30:35 Some of those worlds are user-built 19:31:11 2d avatars like that tie-died kid aren't customizable 19:31:32 Althoguh Samurai_Jack's avater is custom I think, a 3d av made into a flat panel 19:32:01 That maze under the toilets is non-Euclidean (poossibly not the best way to describe it) 19:32:48 That place where he says 'it's just a cube' is accessed by walking through a mirror 19:33:42 -!- nooodl has joined. 19:35:37 Yes, worlds can force you to say things 19:36:59 SA had a "Video Game Article" that also reminded me of Sgeo; it's in regards of Second Life; it's at http://www.somethingawful.com/d/video-game-article/meanwhile-second-life.php and it's kind of like a vignette. 19:39:10 Double semicolon 19:39:13 That's somewhat of a feat 19:40:11 It's probably somewhat of an inappropriate use of a semicolon. 19:41:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SemicolonFreq.png we passed "peak semicolon" around 1800. 19:43:10 are smicolons a renewable resource 19:43:20 I think they're mined. 19:45:07 Still, the last paragraph -- overdone as it was -- was quite evocative. (Not that I ever did any Second Living, I've just read about it, and the spiritual predecessors. Local computing magazines used to have articles in the early days of Virtual Reality.) 19:46:45 who the hell makes statistics about the usage of semicolons 19:46:51 Is all that random variance before 1800ish caused by lack of material to analyze? 19:47:03 -!- kallisti has joined. 19:47:03 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 19:47:03 -!- kallisti has joined. 19:48:09 Lumpio-: Very probably. 19:48:35 myname: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/charfreq_punct.html is almost, but not quite, statistics about the usage of semicolons. 19:49:03 (Perhaps I should in fact make individual punctuation character pages too, given that there's already all of a-z.) 19:49:05 shouldn't it rise after invention of C? 19:49:25 It's probably made out of, you know, books, in general. 19:49:41 Well, Google Books, like it says. 19:49:46 What happened in late October 19:50:48 Should I try to figure out the right rrdtool magic to see which day it is exactly? 19:54:02 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-10-26#212912shachaf at least quite a lot of dots happened. 19:54:50 fizzie: ? 19:54:53 What was *that* all about? 19:55:10 shachaf: Shouldn't *you* know? 19:55:17 No? 19:55:21 That looks like a really annoying thing to do. 19:55:58 I'm not sure why I'd do that. 19:56:40 Perhaps it was the evil shachaf. 20:09:42 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:11:02 -!- Vorpal has joined. 20:11:46 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:12:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:13:58 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:16:49 -!- Bike has joined. 20:23:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:23:55 -!- SOLEIL has joined. 20:24:01 hi all 20:24:05 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:25:07 -!- SOLEIL has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:25:39 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:31:32 That maze under the toilets is non-Euclidean 20:31:40 t sgeo this sounds like a jerkcity line hth 20:32:01 are we sure that sgeo isn't randy 20:32:39 rands? 20:32:49 i read rands's book on managing programmers 20:32:54 it was............................................ "ok" 20:33:49 that;s not very good. 20:34:13 you're............................................ "ok" 20:34:34 heegan 20:34:39 teeheegan 20:36:50 -!- carado has joined. 20:42:22 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:51:33 hichaf 20:52:06 how goes it? 20:52:30 * kmc is learning the moves for rotating the centers of a Rubik's cube 20:52:36 Who’s shichaf? 20:52:55 But the center cannot hold. 20:52:55 kmc: What moves? 20:53:44 http://www.alchemistmatt.com/cube/rubikcenter.html 20:54:14 Oh. 20:54:21 dance dance dance 20:54:22 Neat that you can do that. 20:54:29 https://plus.google.com/100013123247538791993/posts/2W2onvw3Ly5 20:54:33 mnoqy is a russian spy btw hth 20:54:43 what 20:54:48 -!- carado has joined. 20:55:04 wait sorry 20:55:10 mnoqy is not a russian spy 20:55:18 ??????? 20:55:22 ion: lol 20:56:35 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:01:32 wikipedia is telling me the subjonctif imparfait is rarely used in french but 21:01:53 what the heck are you supposed to write after "j'étais surpris que ..."?! 21:04:32 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 21:08:13 hmmm 21:08:25 ok i did it 21:09:01 j'étais surpris que tu aies été là ce soir 21:09:05 I think 21:09:39 so that would be subjonctif passé composé 21:09:40 or something 21:10:18 though I would rarely phrase a sentence like that, and would prefer "j'étais surpris de te voir là ce soir" 21:12:17 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 21:12:45 kmc: if the cops ask me who did it, I'll refer them to the logs 21:13:44 ok "j'étais surpris que" is a very unusual way to start a sentence so all tenses sound weird in my head 21:14:55 hmm. how would you translate something like "i was surprised that she still knew me" 21:15:44 oh wait you mentioned the "j'étais surpris de" thing up there, oops 21:15:47 extrapolating from the previous discussion, j'étais surpris que something something 21:15:49 http://www.requestcomics.com/comic/306.html hmmmmmmm 21:15:58 present form would definitely be "je suis surpris que tu sois là" so with the imparfait... hmmm you want me to say "j'étais supris que tu fûsses là", right? 21:16:29 (took me some time to find the correct form for "fûsses") 21:16:39 ok that sounds correct 21:16:50 "j'étais surpris que tu aies été là" is probably not correct 21:17:43 nooodl: I would say instead "j'étais surpris d'apprendre qu'elle se souvenait encore de moi" ("I was surprised to learn she still remembered me") 21:18:26 but yeah it"s definitely unusual :) 21:18:45 you might find it in novels 21:19:04 it's like passé simple i guess 21:19:14 no passé simple is easy 21:19:26 and not so unusual when writing 21:19:36 (you would rarely use it in oral speech though) 21:19:51 buuuuuuut I'm really having trouble finding the correct tense for your sentence 21:20:08 j'étais surpris qu'elle se rappelle de moi is the first thing that comes to mind 21:20:19 and is probably what I would say when speaking 21:20:21 just subjonctif présent? 21:20:25 but it's most definitely wrong 21:20:48 "j'étais surpris qu'elle se rappelât de moi" is probably more correct 21:21:00 this is for an oral presentation thingy... maybe i should just not use the subjonctif at all 21:21:10 well if it's oral and you use that 21:21:22 What is a word for something that's either a source or a target? 21:21:29 Or either a domain or a codomain. Or something. 21:21:34 an object hth 21:21:37 hum 21:21:40 operand 21:21:51 oh wait I thought you wanted the french word for that haha 21:21:58 argument 21:22:02 space 21:22:15 nooodl: I want a better word than object for talking about categories. 21:22:21 Since objects aren't important but people think they are. 21:22:29 "categories" 21:22:39 i call them "types" i guess types are important though?? 21:22:53 a set hth 21:23:05 The point is that types aren't the main thing you're talking about. You're talking about functions. 21:23:23 Types are just there to tell you how to compose them. 21:24:16 imo, use some obscure german term so nobody will remember it and just talk about morphisms instead. 21:24:35 i don't get what's wrong with object :/ 21:25:08 isn't that literally The Thing in categories that's either a source or a target 21:25:13 if they're objects then what are the methods??? checkmate mathematicians 21:25:13 well, if you're like me and mindstuck in set theory land, sometimes you think about objects in category theory even though that's ninety kinds of pointles 21:25:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:25:23 and shachaf thinks this is the fault of "object" the term i guess? 21:25:46 wow i think about objects in categories :( 21:25:58 Objects are important if you want to know which morphisms can be composed! 21:26:30 i'm still nowhere in my CT adventures though 21:26:50 (btw: thanks for recommending barr & wells, shachaf) 21:27:03 I recommended Barr & Wells? 21:27:05 * copumpkin knows all about CT adventures 21:27:08 I've never read it. 21:27:11 I hear it's good, though. 21:27:20 Probably I quoted ddarius's recommendation. 21:27:28 yopumpkin 21:27:32 Did you read that one story? 21:28:01 For example, the "elements" of a monoid are the arrows, not the objects. 21:28:09 Arrows don't have to be particularly function-like. 21:28:20 Anyway Barr & Wells is free online. 21:28:20 I hear it's good. 21:28:30 Ah. 21:28:39 ddarius also recommended learning about category theory as a generalization of lattice theory or something like that. 21:29:02 yeah, that was actually my first little cat. theory-related "whoa" moment (the monoid thing) 21:29:44 how vague the terms "object", "arrow", and "compose" really are, in the definition of a category 21:29:44 Hmm. Saturday's episode might have been leaked, tempted to go find and watch it 21:29:46 copumpkin: How do you talk about rank-n types categorically? hth 21:30:04 nooodl: I think the terms are actively misleading now. 21:30:06 Well, yes, it doesn't have to be a function, or of other thing like that, it depend on the category, what the morphisms and objects are meaning. 21:30:13 For anything except sets etc. 21:30:14 your hth must mean something different from my hth 21:30:24 copumpkin: It does. hth 21:30:30 this doesn't h at all 21:30:36 I'm just addicted to hth. :-( hth 21:30:40 so 21:30:41 me too hth 21:30:48 do you all read category theory blogs, are there category theory blogs 21:30:48 btw shachaf what is i_i :( 21:30:50 besides the one i mean 21:30:55 nooodl: You mean I,I? 21:30:57 shachaf: ah, yth 21:31:03 oops yes 21:31:10 It looks like an owl face to me. 21:31:30 Is nooodl Finnish? I thought nooodl was Finnish. 21:31:35 i'm belgian hth 21:32:01 belgium is the new hexham (population: me, anothertest) 21:32:20 shachaf: probably something involving (di)natural transformations, I'd guess 21:32:27 I guess I just assume people on IRC are Finnish, hth 21:32:46 copumpkin: I mean, you have a category-ish thing of Haskell functions. 21:32:49 Bike: where do you live again (i'm awful) 21:33:04 But they're all monomorphic, and you handle the polymorphism at another level, or something. 21:33:06 how is that relevant 21:33:09 But that doesn't work with rank-2 types. 21:33:13 You have a Rank-N category? 21:33:19 well that's what I mean by natural transformations 21:33:27 i vaguely seem to recall that you're french 21:33:28 OK. 21:33:37 which is belgian, fsvo belgian, fsvo french 21:33:37 oh, no i'm not that 21:33:38 I guess it's a complicated category, then. 21:33:46 `? Bike 21:33:49 Bike is from Luxembourg. 21:33:57 runST :: (forall s. () -> ST s a) -> a 21:34:01 wow that's belgium sorry 21:34:16 you can phrase that forall s. thing as an NT 21:34:26 with constant functor for first half and flip of ST for second half 21:35:16 Ah. 21:35:20 hmm. would it be better to think of "objects" and "arrows" as "types" and "composable, typed values" respectively? 21:35:38 shachaf: still not sure how it'd work though, need to think harar 21:35:53 nooodl: I think that's a better intuition. 21:36:22 For a poset category, I guess an arrow is a proof of ≤ or something. 21:36:35 i still have no idea what posets are 21:36:46 partially ordered set 21:36:49 A poset is a set with a partial ordering. 21:37:00 you really just need a preorder though, which has even less structure 21:37:18 nooodl: take a total order as an example: natural numbers with <= 21:37:19 Not really a proof I suppose, but a partial ordering will make a thin category (they follow the same laws), where there is a morphism if A is less than or equal to B. 21:37:32 And the objects of the category are the elements of the set. 21:38:33 for another cute category, take obejcts = natural numbers, morphisms from n -> m = m x n (real) matrices 21:38:51 and then figure out what you can find in that category 21:38:52 Types again! 21:39:30 are matrices types 21:39:45 I don't honestly know what an object would be in general 21:39:53 an object 21:39:55 Or at least, not in Haskell 21:40:03 a type? 21:40:05 copumpkin: Is composition multiplication? 21:40:06 why do things have to be things. things can just be themselves imo. go with the flow 21:40:16 shachaf: yep 21:40:18 Makes sense. 21:40:47 And square matrices of any particular size are a monoid. 21:41:15 a monoid object? :P first figure out if the category is monoidal 21:41:53 how about simple things like initial/terminal/product/coproduct 21:42:00 I just mean an object and all its endoarrows. 21:42:14 ah, ok 21:42:14 That's boring enough to not be worth mentioning. 21:42:46 zzo38: I choose to say that the arrow : A -> B in the poset category is a proof that A ≤ B 21:42:54 And then I identify all proofs. 21:43:32 Anyway, let's see. 21:47:03 Matrix multiplication does make a category; the morphisms are the matrix and the objects identify the size of the matrix (natural numbers), and zero is the initial and the final object; ... I think so, at least ... 21:47:20 I think so too. 21:49:12 So, really, category theory does a lot of things. 21:49:33 copumpkin: That's a good category. 21:49:44 shachaf: wait until you figure out (co)products! 21:50:58 coshachaf 21:51:03 copumpkin: Hmm, let's see. 22:00:40 http://gitorious.org/nethack-tas-tools/mainline/blobs/master/turnbyturn.txt nethack TAS 22:01:29 ais523: you're famous! 22:01:42 nooodl: in what way this time? 22:02:01 oh that's YOUR nethack TAS 22:02:17 i liked the video of that 22:02:21 yeah 22:02:24 me and dwangoAC 22:03:53 man nethack's mechanics are kind of ridiculous aren't they 22:04:04 shachaf: gee hurry up and answer copumpkin's question for me please 22:04:08 it's exciting 22:22:19 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:31:02 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:31:56 -!- Tritonio has joined. 22:40:37 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:42:15 -!- Tritonio has joined. 22:43:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:45:02 ion: wow, that GNOME thing 23:03:01 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:12:49 so wait, what are products in the matrix category 23:13:21 Phantom_Hoover: it's an exercise 23:13:58 hth 23:14:48 so uh 23:15:29 Do all (co)products exist? 23:15:42 figure it out 23:17:58 If N and M are natural numbers, their product is a natural number P and two matrices s : PxN and t : PxM, such that for any natural number Y and matrices a : YxN and b : YxM, there exists a unique u : YxP such that us = a and ut = b 23:18:29 i think you probably have those multiplications the wrong way round 23:18:50 Um, probably. 23:19:06 Er, do I? 23:19:18 is it rows x columns 23:19:25 yes 23:19:26 If u : AxB and v : BxC, which way do you multiply? 23:19:35 so er... to multiply two matrices... 23:19:56 the left has to have the same number of columns as the right has rows 23:19:57 here i was thinking you couldn't make tensor multiplication sillier 23:20:31 so (mxn) * (nxp) = (mxp) 23:20:40 That's what I wrote. 23:20:55 u : YxP, s : PxN, up = a : YxN 23:21:21 Y -> P is represented by PxY here 23:21:23 i think 23:21:42 Oh. 23:21:45 Right. 23:22:07 Fine, turn it around. 23:23:25 Is it a dagger category? 23:26:23 Does the way you have the products actually matter? 23:27:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:31:57 -!- sivoais has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:32:38 -!- sivoais has joined. 23:34:36 -!- augur has joined. 23:34:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:35:13 23:26:23: Does the way you have the products actually matter? 23:35:36 no, it's one of those things where multiplication is basically commutative except for some niggly little details 23:36:35 i wonder if it's actually just m times n 23:36:44 That doesn't sound right. 23:36:59 fuck it, i'm doing this the differential equations way 23:37:06 The empty product should be the terminal object, which I think is 0. 23:37:12 What's the differential equations way? 23:37:53 guess random shit and see if it works 23:38:01 * Bike salutes 23:38:06 write exams based on one's ability to do this 23:38:33 I think the zero is both initial and final objects in this category. 23:38:34 -!- variable has changed nick to constant. 23:38:56 can you even have an mx0 matrix 23:39:21 i guess as some kind of abstract matrix? 23:39:34 I would think you can, since I do not know why you don't. 23:39:38 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:39:39 well 23:39:43 thanks zzo38 23:39:44 no, it makes no sense 23:39:46 thzo38 23:39:59 Why does it make no sense? 23:40:04 consider: what do you get when you multiply an mx0 and an 0xn matrix 23:40:22 the result must be an mxn matrix, yet where are you getting all those entries 23:40:32 So? 23:40:40 unless, hmm 23:40:41 There are none; it will be zero isn't it? 23:40:41 -!- sivoais has joined. 23:40:43 What do you get when you compose an a -> Void function and a Void -> b function? 23:40:44 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:40:57 "uh this is category theory, who cares about that kind of sense" 23:41:06 weeelll... 23:41:23 isn't an a -> Void function Weird 23:41:30 -!- sivoais has joined. 23:41:32 It's weird in that there aren't any. 23:41:42 exactly (exactly?) 23:41:49 exactly! 23:41:58 So it sounds like there wouldn't be an mx0 matrix either? 23:42:21 Or maybe not. Who, like, knows, man? 23:42:59 maybe it's m+n 23:43:13 hmm 23:43:13 Sgeotm 23:43:47 i think it might be m+n 23:43:47 Phantom_Hoover, I watched an episode of Farscape last night 23:43:52 Sgeo, good man 23:43:56 watch another now 23:44:02 I need to eat 23:44:07 watch while eating 23:44:13 the great new way to watch 23:44:21 Also, would you rather me watch Farscape or finish DS9? 23:44:25 anyway shh i'm abstract nonsense 23:46:20 let pi_1 = the m-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal filled in with 1s 23:46:37 let pi_2 = the n-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal filled in with 1s 23:47:25 now, if we have y and f1,f2 as m-by-y and n-by-y matrices... 23:47:28 you could just say "the whatever by whatever identity matrix" 23:47:30 What's a diagonal of an nxm matrix? 23:47:37 Bike, that's not the identity matrix 23:47:46 it's the identity matrix with padding at the bottom or right 23:47:53 oh. silly. 23:49:01 now we want f as an m+n-by-y matrix 23:49:11 so if we stick f1 on top of f2... 23:50:14 nope wait that's not going to work 23:53:10 copumpkin, oh just tell us already 23:53:18 Phantom_Hoover: No! 23:53:19 It is what I thought it was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(mathematics)#Empty_matrices 23:54:54 OK so keeping the "f1 on top of f2" part 23:55:01 well, that explains where you get the elements from 23:56:00 Oh. 23:56:30 So there's one 3x0 matrix and one 0x3 matrix, and their product is [[0 0 0] [0 0 0] [0 0 0]]? 23:56:57 OK, right 23:57:00 yeah, it's m+n 23:57:02 Yes, I think so. That is what I thought it was, and I think that is what Wikipedia means too. 23:57:08 my earlier values for pi1 and pi2 were wrong 23:57:50 pi1 is an m-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal starting in the top-left cell filled with 1s 23:58:12 pi2 is an n-by-m+n matrix with the diagonal starting in the top cell of the nth column filled with 1s 23:58:41 did you know: you can exponentiate by matrices 23:59:19 it doesn't say there must be only one of each, shachaf 23:59:44 they're hardly going to be different now are they