00:00:04 <Bike> why not? if you have zero divisors you might as well have fun with it.
00:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> also: the number of m-by-n matrices with elements from a set with cardinality X is X^(m*n)
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00:04:37 <shachaf> But I'll figure this out properly later.
00:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover> so are initial and terminal objects meant to do interesting things around products
00:05:02 <shachaf> 1 as in the terminal object, not the natural number 1.
00:05:14 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the empty product is the terminal object.
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00:09:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I think A*1=A?
00:09:59 <shachaf> Since in https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/CategoricalProduct-03.png , you get half the diagram trivially.
00:10:49 <shachaf> copumpkin: I was doing something else and then Phantom_Hoover got me back into it!
00:10:59 <shachaf> I bet he's your agent. Pumpkin_Hoover
00:14:12 <shachaf> copumpkin: you should come to bayhac to talk about these things hth
00:14:50 <shachaf> conor is "2 cool 4 bayhac"
00:15:00 <copumpkin> what other structure does that category have?!?!?
00:15:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i know there are a billion structures in category theory
00:19:07 <zzo38> All categories have a identity monad and a identity monad, and all categories with final objects have Finalize monad for each final objects, and Initialize comonad for each initial objects.
00:19:34 <shachaf> what are adjunctions in this category hth
00:19:42 <zzo38> I listed two of them already.
00:19:54 <kmc> http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/doxygen/trunk/h264__qpel__mmx_8c-source.html C: best macro assembler ever?
00:20:13 <shachaf> zzo38: A identity monad *and* a identity monad?
00:20:30 <zzo38> shachaf: I meant, a identity monad and a identity comonad.
00:20:36 <Bike> kmc: that's gross
00:20:37 <zzo38> The second monad I mentioned is the Finalize monad.
00:20:39 <shachaf> zzo38: I think usually you say "an identity monad".
00:21:30 <shachaf> So an endofunctor maps sizes to sizes and matrices to matrices and preserves composition and identity.
00:22:19 <shachaf> I think functors are meant to be unexciting.
00:23:16 <shachaf> What's a good endofunctor?
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00:24:42 <kmc> "Seriously. If you want to be a part of the Bitcoin revolution it's time to put on your grown up pants and switch to Linux."
00:26:04 <Bike> time to use your MANLY PANTS and switch to os/2
00:26:37 <copumpkin> guess I'm not catching the bitcoin train :(
00:26:46 <kmc> Windows is for shirt-cockers
00:27:11 <Bike> what;s a shitcocker
00:27:17 <kmc> what it sounds like
00:27:21 <kmc> also, gross
00:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1e75ju/12_yearolds_thoughts_on_buying_bitcoins/
00:28:44 <Bike> huh, nymphs have infinite carry capacity
00:28:58 <Bike> i'm learning so many pointless things
00:29:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: perfect macro
00:29:54 <Bike> "this is magic... 4% fee though... well, whatever" hardened investor here.
00:30:16 <shachaf> copumpkin: can you generalize a matrix to have real rather than natural dimensions................
00:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, as i said earlier, the set of x-by-y matrices over a field F is F^(x*y)
00:31:35 <shachaf> imo someone else should have that fun hth
00:31:40 <Bike> maybe you should start with negatives.
00:32:05 <Bike> I guess the main problem would be like, what kind of linear map is that?
00:32:17 <Bike> Do you need to operate on pi-dimensional space
00:37:42 <kmc> i googled "bitinstant" and found second hit "Do not use BITINSTANT : Bitcoin - Reddit"
00:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bzo49/do_not_use_bitinstant/c9bodk8
00:42:24 <Bike> "a stack of -184549376 gold pieces"
00:43:13 <Bike> reddit is a good place for customer service
00:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dgq10/i_lost_all_my_bitcoins_with_satoshi_dice_mfw/ bitcoin promotes responsible financial habits in 12-year-olds
00:46:04 <kmc> Martingale Strategy... great way for Bankrupt ....
00:46:07 <kmc> could not have put it better myself
00:46:25 <shachaf> in the simulator i found it's possible of 13 lose in one short .. (For 50%)
00:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> "losing 13 times in a row, i mean what are the chances"
00:48:50 <shachaf> maybe i should fix it not to use these 16-bit floats........
00:49:15 <Bike> i like the guy who says to play a card game instead
00:49:51 <copumpkin> Phantom_Hoover: that feels oddly categorical!
00:50:02 <copumpkin> Phantom_Hoover: looks like an end or a coend or something
00:57:13 <kmc> Bike: well the suggestion is to play poker, right?
00:57:17 <kmc> which is a legit game of skill
00:57:31 <kmc> still pretty likely that a beginner will lose everything
00:57:55 <zzo38> Even when playing poker, don't play cash games; that is a sure way to get ruined. Play tournament style poker games it is better.
00:58:20 <kmc> basically don't play games where it's you vs. the house
00:58:29 <kmc> play games where it's you vs. idiots and the house just takes a cut
00:58:50 <shachaf> what do you do when you're one of the idiots
00:58:59 <kmc> get smarter or stop playing
00:59:22 <zzo38> In a tournament game you cannot use more money than the entry fee, and everyone gets the same number of chips.
00:59:53 <kmc> isn't the average player skill higher in tournaments?
01:04:19 <zzo38> But different tournament cost different amount of money.
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01:17:42 <Sgeo> Fun fact: David Bowie has/had a presence in Worlds
01:18:03 <Sgeo> Actually, the 'hand garden' is in Bowieworld
01:23:46 <Bike> kmc: the post basically said "if you're going to lose your money at least have fun" yeah
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01:24:13 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, and don't spend more money than you should spend ordinarily for entertainment anyways.
01:24:23 <zzo38> If you manage to win, that is a bonus.
01:26:02 <kmc> zzo38: what are your favorite poker games, and have you invented any new ones?
01:26:32 <zzo38> I don't play poker much, but I know Texas Hold'em, and I have thought about new kinds too.
01:26:40 <shachaf> mnoqy mnoqy mnoqy, hi mnoqy
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02:39:16 <Bike_> Does the nethack turn by turn thing end at 823? :(
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02:39:37 <kmc> zzo38: which new kinds?
02:39:51 <kmc> hold 'em is very popular, I think it has a good balance between randomness, objective skill, and psychology
02:40:25 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I know of such thing like that, I think it is, too.
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02:41:03 <zzo38> kmc: I was thinking of poker game with tarot cards, Pokemon cards, and ones that use standard cards but with trading as well, and with chess, etc
02:41:12 <Bike> Eleusis seems like this channel's kind of card game.
02:41:15 <shachaf> holdM_ is the version where you discard unused cards, right?
02:41:17 <Bike> Either that or the one you can't talk about.
02:41:28 <kmc> shachaf: ꙮ_ꙮ
02:41:28 <Bike> hold 'em is where you have a shared pool of cards.
02:41:40 <zzo38> You share 5 cards and 2 card are only your own cards.
02:41:52 <Bike> i realize that that was probably a pun, but fuck off
02:42:06 <kmc> and there are successive betting rounds with 0, 3, 4, 5 public cards
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02:42:53 <zzo38> Yes and then you make your best 5 cards of the 7 available to you. If you have a royal flush, nobody else can; unlike in draw poker, in this game only one player can have a royal flush.
02:43:08 <kmc> that's true
02:44:18 <kmc> also your best hand could be just the five public cards, in which case your private hands don't matter (even to break ties)
02:44:56 <kmc> one problem with hold 'em is that good play involves folding most hands immediately, which is borng
02:45:02 <kmc> i don't know if other poker variants solve this problem
02:45:05 <zzo38> Yes, although if your best hand is the five public cards, then you will at most tie.
02:46:28 <shachaf> 1F64B HAPPY PERSON RAISING ONE HAND [<U+1F64B>]
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02:50:08 <Sgeo> http://e.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9yFP31Q8OYauTsXL.png
02:50:19 <Sgeo> Found in /r/lounge CSS
02:51:15 <shachaf> dude like what are you doing like lounging man
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03:45:03 <kmc> entertain me
03:45:37 <Bike> Write out hofstadter's q sequence on paper, then make a hat out of it
03:45:49 <zzo38> kmc: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/The_Entertainer_-_Scott_Joplin.ogg
03:45:50 <shachaf> Let mee entertain you / Let me make you smile / Let me do a few tricks / Some old and then some new tricks / I'm very versatile
03:46:01 <kmc> zzo38: good response
03:46:06 <shachaf> That's been happening a lot to me lately.
03:46:20 <shachaf> Something's wrong with my keyboard and/or finger and/or brain
03:46:40 <shachaf> and/or irc client and/or mosh and/or screen (why am i still using screen i should have switched to mosh when my server restarted i forgot help)
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03:46:56 <kmc> switched to tmux you mean or?
03:47:09 <kmc> tmux is still actively developed so you know it's good
03:47:16 <kmc> because nothing makes software good like people actively fucking with it
03:47:20 <Taneb> kmc, why am I awake
03:47:48 <kmc> i used to play piano
03:48:11 <shachaf> kmc: Should I learn to play piano?
03:48:17 <shachaf> How about another musical instrument?
03:49:02 <shachaf> CHROMATIC BUTTON ACCORDION?
03:49:16 <kmc> you should learn to play the ondes Martenot
03:49:31 <shachaf> kmc: What's the probability of you moving to SF this year?
03:49:43 <Bike> Accordions own. Learn to play that.
03:49:50 <Bike> They're kind of expensive though ("unlike pianos")
03:49:59 <shachaf> Bike: Only chromatic button accordions hth
03:50:01 <kmc> you can get a free bad piano
03:50:03 <shachaf> Piano accordions are the devil.
03:50:08 <kmc> just by paying the cost to haul it away
03:50:24 <kmc> shachaf: i'm going to say 90%
03:50:36 <kmc> my girlfriend and I are both pretty sure it's what we want to do
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03:50:49 <kmc> it's contingent on me getting a job in the SF area, but I expect I can do that
03:51:08 <kmc> it is pretty likely that I will be living in SF by September (because that's when my lease here ends)
03:51:55 <coppro> where are you presently/
03:52:04 <kmc> Cambridge, MA
03:52:19 <Taneb> Who knows, by 2017 I may be in the SF area
03:52:25 <kmc> no I'm old
03:52:42 <kmc> well, 25, but I graduated when I was 20
03:52:42 <Bike> old in elliott years
03:52:45 <kmc> so i feel old :(
03:52:48 <kmc> but it's not all bad!
03:52:57 <shachaf> I haven't graduated and I feel old. :-(
03:53:06 <Bike> you graduated at 20? well now i feel incompetent
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:12:31 <copumpkin> oh kmc is younger than I thought he was
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:12:38 <kmc> heh how old do i seem
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:12:52 <copumpkin> I assumed you were around my age
03:53:22 <shachaf> 04:13:12 <kmc> ah, i don't perceive much of a gap between 21 and 25. maybe i will when i'm 25
03:53:32 <copumpkin> my gf is in med school (4th year) and one of her classmates is 20
03:53:39 <kmc> Bike: maybe this is a humblebrag or something, but skipping grades in middle school wasn't a big deal
03:53:44 <Bike> Well, med students are freaks anyway.
03:53:50 <kmc> the classes still move at the same pace, and each year is 80% recap of the previous year anyway
03:53:59 <kmc> copumpkin: wow
03:54:07 <coppro> I could have entered university earlier; am glad I did not
03:54:21 <Bike> Yeah, I skipped two years of math classes, mostly meant i had an annoying schedule
03:54:28 <Taneb> I was never good enough at English to skip a year
03:54:54 <kmc> we had a magnet school, but it was only half day
03:55:01 <kmc> so i spent a *lot* of time on school buses
03:55:06 <Taneb> Could have probably skipped a year in maths or science if the school system would allow it
03:55:12 <kmc> going back and forth between there and my regular public school
03:55:33 <Bike> Hm, I think the nearest magnet school is the one named after HeLa. That's kinda cool.
03:55:41 <Bike> coppro: School for nerds
03:55:48 <Bike> uh, in the US, specifically
03:55:51 <kmc> shachaf: seriously, learn to play the ondes Martenot
03:55:54 * coppro wonders why that terminology
03:55:55 <kmc> and join a Radiohead cover band
03:56:08 <shachaf> Doesn't Radiohead have drums?
03:56:13 <Bike> coppro: because they get sudents from a wider area than usual schools.
03:56:15 <kmc> coppro: because they pull in gifted students from around the area
03:56:20 <kmc> shachaf: oh, I forgot you hate drums :(
03:56:45 <shachaf> kmc: The other day I got really annoyed at the person sitting next to me on the airplane for having music with drums playing in their earphones.
03:56:45 <Bike> You could join an arhythmic radiohead cover band.
03:56:57 <kmc> they do have some ambient-ish tracks
03:57:02 * coppro went to the Canadian equivalent
03:57:04 <kmc> not really enough for a whole bandi
03:57:06 <shachaf> It escaped the earphones but just barely -- it wasn't particularly loud compared to the noise of the engine.
03:57:17 <Bike> Shachaf should just join a Paul Lansky cover band.
03:57:19 <shachaf> But it bothered me much more than any other noise.
03:57:24 <Bike> Pretty much the same as radiohead
03:58:12 <Jafet> Spinal Tap Drummer Dies From Arrhythmia
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03:58:42 <shachaf> Bike: Music has rhythm even without bands!
03:58:52 <shachaf> kmc: I mind drums in a song a bit less when I'm already familiar with it.
03:59:09 <copumpkin> do you count any kind of percussion as bad?
03:59:11 <shachaf> So the backdoor to get me to listen to a song with drums in it is to make sure I'm familiar with it somehow.
03:59:12 <Bike> It's slightly possible I'm being silly.
03:59:16 <shachaf> What's "any kind of percussion"?
03:59:25 <Bike> cymbal solo!!!
03:59:28 <shachaf> Things that go boom-boom-boom-boom aren't.
03:59:29 <copumpkin> I mean things like cymbals or snares
03:59:42 <coppro> become a concert percussionist
03:59:51 <shachaf> What I don't like is the thing that Bike referred to as a "beat".
03:59:54 <coppro> your goal in life should be to play the bass drum in Verdi's Requiem
04:00:15 <copumpkin> sounds like you'd like sigur ros then :P
04:00:28 <copumpkin> although they do have some percussion
04:00:49 <shachaf> Other things I don't like: velvet, carbonated beverages
04:00:53 <Bike> I'm just going to keep naming weirdos.
04:01:46 <copumpkin> although one of my favorite songs of theirs goes kind of crazy with the beat near the end
04:02:01 <Bike> Haha, Pitchfork gave the loops 9.4/10
04:02:21 <copumpkin> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwDHBqFedFg)
04:03:08 <copumpkin> it seems like avoiding percussion cuts out most recent music
04:03:44 <shachaf> Not all uses of drums are bad.
04:03:46 <copumpkin> the massive drum of the dies irae in verdi's requiem
04:03:51 <copumpkin> here, let me get you a massive drum
04:03:58 <coppro> THAT IS THE THING I WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER
04:04:14 <coppro> Bike: listen to the dies irae!
04:04:15 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW1Uc-grcMs
04:04:45 <shachaf> <shachaf> far away from the boom boom boom of the drummer / it was midsummer / what a bummer / clementine
04:04:47 <copumpkin> it's even better when he brings that theme back near the end
04:04:52 <Bike> this is what, 19th century?
04:05:04 <coppro> copumpkin: I got to see it live a week ago
04:05:06 <Bike> Oh, those are certainly drums. I don't think that's the "beat" shachaf doesn't like, though?
04:05:13 <copumpkin> it's a mind-blowing piece of music
04:05:18 <Bike> I mean, they're pretty sparse.
04:05:21 <shachaf> Bike: "beat" was your word! Don't you dare quote me on it!
04:05:29 <Bike> I was quoting myself.
04:05:47 <shachaf> Only rude people and shachaf quote themselves.
04:05:54 <copumpkin> the rex tremendae is awesome, as is the entire libera me at the end
04:05:55 <Bike> So there's no issue.
04:06:06 <copumpkin> fuck it, the whole thing is awesome
04:06:10 <Bike> Anyway the 19th century was bigger on drums than earlier periods, I thought.
04:06:27 <Bike> I mean if you have a mandolin concerto or whatever. Not a lot of drumming going on there.
04:06:31 <coppro> copumpkin: I was in the very back of the theatre and could still feel the bass drum when he did the giant two-mallet beat
04:06:53 <shachaf> copumpkin: Are you going to followeegan to SF?
04:07:05 <copumpkin> here, have leontyne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQbDQe12JA
04:08:02 <Bike> does shachaf like bach?
04:08:31 <shachaf> imo his music's p. good tho hth
04:09:09 <Bike> idly wondering if you'd like the crazy piano guy's version of the musical offering less, since he's really pointy with the keys
04:09:13 <shachaf> Should I go see _Arcadia_?
04:09:21 <shachaf> Bike: I don't mind key pointiness.
04:11:02 <copumpkin> here, no drums anywhere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KpYUaRg0aDw#t=830s
04:13:55 <copumpkin> (that's one of my favorite pieces ever, btw)
04:17:35 <copumpkin> I hope you're all just too flabbergasted by that amazing piece to IRC anymore
04:20:06 <copumpkin> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/22/nanny-rich-british-russian-200k_n_933141.html?utm_hp_ref=50&ir=50
04:22:37 <shachaf> copumpkin: how many nannies do you employ
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04:47:29 <shachaf> copumpkin: That totally has drums or drumalikes. :-(
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04:49:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: hey should i read any russian novels hth
04:50:19 <Bike> Yeah, just read short stories.
04:50:23 <Bike> Get some roadside picnics going.
04:50:46 <olsner> you could read asimov? I think he's russian
04:50:53 <Bike> well, briefly.
04:51:05 <Bike> Different literary tradition.
04:51:54 <olsner> the one into english perhaps?
04:51:56 <Bike> clearly you should read demons. get yo hate on
04:52:13 <Bike> I feel sorry for translators. They get no respect.
04:52:30 <shachaf> Bike: You mean from people like olsner?
04:52:48 <Bike> though maybe he's kidding or whatever, who knows.
04:54:07 <olsner> hmm, actually I don't respect translators (not entirely decided as to whether I should or not but leaning towards "shouldn't")
04:54:26 <olsner> they're a poor workaround for me not knowing all languages
04:55:39 <pikhq> What of the universal translator? :P
04:58:43 <Bike> I'm still just stuck thinking of how bad Verne's translations were, I guess.
04:59:19 <shachaf> I read a lot of Verne in Hebrew.
04:59:41 <kmc> hofstadter wrote that book about translation
04:59:42 <Bike> The early ones into English. They were almost all basically terrible, and they kept on being terrible and republished for so long that he has a way different reputation in the anglophone world than he does everywhere else.
05:00:21 <Bike> I liked that book, but I'm a monoglot so I probably know nothing about anything.
05:00:25 <shachaf> I read most Verne that I've read in Hebrew.
05:00:42 <shachaf> Later I reread some in English.
05:00:42 <olsner> that's a bit surprising, I'd assume the number of english speakers would generally make translations into english better than other translations
05:00:47 <shachaf> _The Mysterious Island_ is good.
05:01:06 <Bike> olsner: They still sold well, because they were translated as pulp.
05:01:52 <Bike> But I mean, it's weird to reconcile the crud that made it into that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie with a guy who inspired Perec.
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05:25:47 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Musicians_by_band
05:25:56 <shachaf> This category contains only the following page. This list may not reflect recent changes (learn more).
05:26:02 <shachaf> User talk:FLASHBUDDHAI THE BASS-KONG
05:27:47 <Bike> I am all kinds of ready to talk about FLASHBUDDHAI THE BASS-KONG.
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06:16:55 <fizzie> http://developer.android.com/reference/android/hardware/SensorManager.html#GRAVITY_DEATH_STAR_I oh Android, you and your APIs.
06:19:10 <Bike> wow, pretty low, huh.
06:19:22 <kmc> wow a star wars reference, take that corporate suits
06:19:32 <fizzie> There is also GRAVITY_THE_ISLAND, "Gravity on the island".
06:19:39 <Bike> is that a Lost reference or what
06:19:57 <fizzie> It has the Lost numbers in it, so probably.
06:20:24 <fizzie> (It's 4.815162 somethings; unlike all other GRAVITY_FOO constants, the units are not documented.)
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06:36:03 <shachaf> kmc: my friend wrote this article, how do i argue with them http://blog.sosonkin.com/2013/05/then-i-finally-understood-monads.html
06:36:09 <shachaf> (note: not actually my friend)
06:36:15 <kmc> more like a frenemy?
06:36:23 <Bike> "more like a stranger"
06:36:44 <shachaf> not my friend. more like my bicycle
06:36:54 <shachaf> i.e. way north in washington and rusting
06:37:06 <kmc> we were just outside of barstow when I finally understood monads
06:37:35 <shachaf> the joke is that my bicycle is in washington and rusting
06:37:35 <zzo38> Well, there are several problems with it.
06:37:40 <shachaf> and Bike is also in washington
06:37:45 <shachaf> and Bike is a common abbreviation for bicycle
06:38:13 <Bike> huh i'm getting some alternate openings when i google that kmcism
06:38:18 <zzo38> One (minor) problem is adding extra parentheses, but this isn't really a problem, since it would still work like that.
06:38:28 <Bike> fear and loahting in textual criticism
06:39:06 <zzo38> They say they are to indicate the three monads, but the third thing surrounded is a function!
06:40:15 <zzo38> So, in other words, putStr whatever is making the IO action (IO monad type), not the monad itself.
06:40:22 <zzo38> Furthermore, maybe putStrLn might be better here.
06:40:54 <Bike> the true monad is not the monad that can be spoken of
06:41:03 <Bike> that's probably not true for monadology actually, huh.
06:41:08 <zzo38> At least the article explains how it is used; this much makes some sense.
06:41:15 <shachaf> the monad that can be monaded is not the true monad
06:41:35 <shachaf> ☝REFERENCE TO BAD TRANSLATIONS OF THE TAO TE CHING☝
06:41:37 <zzo38> The stuff about philosophy isn't really applicable much.
06:41:44 <shachaf> "the word for speaking of is the same as the word for tao or something"
06:41:58 <Bike> are there good translations of the tao te ching
06:42:11 <shachaf> i like the excerps in raymond smullyan books
06:42:28 <shachaf> he's a real excpert in the tao te ching
06:42:34 <zzo38> At least it explains how to use the IO monad; it doesn't really explain it except how the IO monad works, but it does at least explain things which do "are the connectors or the glue that keeps these monad particles together to form a composite substance" is a way to explain the IO monad.
06:42:53 <zzo38> That is how to argue of it, isn't it?
06:43:04 <kmc> ☝ IM WITH SACHAF ☝
06:43:51 <shachaf> kmc: ☛ On the choice of Unicode characters? ☚
06:44:21 <shachaf> _How to Argue of It_, by George Pólya
06:44:50 <Bike> That made me spit. Now my furniture is all wet.
06:51:19 <shachaf> Bike: You should know better than to drink while IRCing with the Almighty Funpuns!
06:51:29 <Bike> Indeed I should, but I don't.
06:54:00 <Bike> I don't know why it made me laugh that hard. Maybe polya is just inherently amusing
06:55:09 <shachaf> kmc: There's a book by George Pólya called _How to Solve It_. It's famous, I think?
06:55:35 <shachaf> The joke was taking zzo38's sentence fragment and casting it in that light. Putting it in the mental context reserved for the title of that book.
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06:57:11 <Bike> ^rot13 Almighty
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07:01:56 <Jafet> Excerpt: expert expects express, except exerts excess excrete.
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07:41:27 <zzo38> How do you write "I will eat you" in Latin?
07:42:14 <shachaf> https://translate.google.com/#en/la/I%20will%20eat%20you. hth
07:48:29 <kmc> oh who/what is fruitFly
07:51:10 <kmc> am i in for a, 'fun surprise'
07:52:40 <kmc> are Matasano problems the new Project Euler
07:52:47 <shachaf> A person who's been banned from #haskell multiple times.
07:52:54 <shachaf> Admittedly mostly by elliott.
07:53:05 <shachaf> But anyway you can make up your own mind about them.
07:54:02 <kmc> resisting urge to logread
07:55:17 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fru.txt hth
07:56:28 <Jafet> https://translate.google.com/#la/en/We%20eat%20the%20Gauls is apparently valid latin
07:56:55 <kmc> shachaf: your server doesn't tell me what the charset is :'(
07:57:23 <shachaf> ok i feel dirty i take that back
07:58:22 <kmc> ḧigh ascii
07:58:55 <Jafet> kmc: I tried to rub those dots off my screen
07:59:58 <kmc> they are there by accident
08:00:29 <shachaf> Oh, that's not a combining character.
08:00:38 <shachaf> ḧ is actually a codepoint.
08:00:51 <Jafet> I tried to rub it off again
08:00:59 <Jafet> I probably should clean this screen
08:01:00 <shachaf> ḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧḧ
08:03:34 <shachaf> Even so, I'd say that it's worth raising awareness of it. Haskell's identification of inductive data with coinductive data, however well motivated, has allowed people to be lazy. People aren't so likely to be thinking "do I mean inductive or coinductive here?", "is this function productive?" etc. The usual style is to write as if everything is inductive, and if it still works on infinite data, to pat ourselves on the back for using Haskell ...
08:03:40 <shachaf> ... rather than ML. I'm certainly guilty of that.
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08:11:28 <HackEgo> bin/zalgo \ bin/zalgoerjan
08:11:30 <shachaf> `run echo Stanislaw | bin/zalgo
08:11:43 <shachaf> `run echo Stanislaw | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
08:11:45 <HackEgo> S̶̡̟͇̠͉̯̻̝͔͇̥̪͓̩̣̹͙͈̄͂ͣ̈́̀́ͥ̆͑̋ͩ̽t͍͏̷̨̰̤̣̮̫̻͕̹͈͈̙͙̘̼͎͖ͮ̿̓̈́̃̀̋̑ͣͦ͡a̸̴̖̳̯̘̣͖͔̰̮̥̺̝̻͇̅̏̔́͑ͭͣͣ́̐͛̉́̚͠n̷̵̷̰̬̻͔̼̝̩̬̏̓́͂ͯͮ͑ͩ̆͋͐̈ͮ̓ͤ̚͢͝͡͝į̶̸̷̵̧̡̞̘̝͚̦̖͙̰̳̜̓̃ͬ̉ͭ͋̓̌̾̋̃ͩ̆͡s̨̡̯̩̲̤͓̤͍͚̞̅̏̾̚͟͟
08:12:48 <kmc> we heard you like combining characters
08:12:58 <fizzie> That broke my terminal.
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08:14:24 <shachaf> It broke Bike's IRC client.
08:14:54 <pikhq_> `run echo Zalgo | (cat>tmp;for i in `seq 1 10`;do zalgo <tmp >tmp1;mv tmp1 tmp;done;cat tmp)
08:15:04 <HackEgo> Z̵̢̢̧̧̢̨̨̨̛̠̖͍̥̞̫̞̱̮͇̫̟̺̝̼̦̹̭͖̟̘̯̯̰̥̻͕̩͉̜̬̼̬̣̰̮̩̹̋̃̔ͬ̾̿̃ͣ̎͌ͬ̿ͪ̆̆̅̉ͪ͋̆͒̌̀ͦ̀̒̀͂͂̐ͫ͋̓̇͋̅́ͦ̍́̽̾̌̇͐͊̓̆ͨ̒ͦ́ͧͦ͑̐͘̕̕͜͠͡͞͠ͅͅ͏̵̸̛̖͈̣̰͉̲̼͇̤̜̼̻̹̩̞̯̜̠͈̟͉̱ͥ̌́̌ͣ͑̂̑ͯ̂͆̂ͯ͒ͧͭͦ̿̎̈ͨ̐ͣͮͩ́̿ͬ̚͜͟͝͞͞
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09:14:06 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_non-invasion_of_Poland
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09:50:33 <Snowyowl> def fib(n): return round( pow(1.618033988749895,n) / 2.23606797749979)
09:51:12 <Snowyowl> floating-point numbers make for the best Fibonacci algorithms
09:53:26 <Snowyowl> yeah, but the guy who used signed integers only made it to 2147483648 anyway.
09:54:02 <kmc> so what's the shortest closed form for fib using only integer math
09:57:23 <Snowyowl> ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.- perhaps
09:57:52 <Snowyowl> i didn't write that though, do we have a bf interpreter here to test it with?
09:58:07 <Snowyowl> !bf ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-
09:58:55 <Snowyowl> ... is he prompting for input or something?
09:59:55 <Snowyowl> !bf ++++++++++++++++++[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-
10:05:43 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
10:05:45 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
10:05:58 <fizzie> (That's not "shortest", it's just there.)
10:10:04 <fizzie> It's mostly about the decimal output.
10:10:18 <fizzie> The snippetshown above opts not to do that.
10:10:39 <fizzie> ^bf ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-!
10:10:49 <fizzie> It's the right numbers all right.
10:11:35 <Jafet> ^bf ,[->>[>]+[<]< ]>+>[-<<[->+> +<<]>>>]<.<.-!0
10:12:06 <lifthrasiir> what is a good strategy to compress BF code?
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10:36:48 <Lymia> lifthrasiir, well.
10:36:59 <Lymia> You can get a constant 1/2 size reduction with any program...
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10:56:37 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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11:02:45 <fizzie> Hey, someone has renamed the latest generation of workstations at the CS building classroom after esolangs: http://www.niksula.hut.fi/maps
11:03:55 <fizzie> Maybe not "renamed", I suppose those are likely to be their first names, but anyway.
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11:17:03 <HackEgo> Snowyowl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:17:16 <Snowyowl> Can someone read this message? My client is being weird today, and I'm not sure if I'm actually connected to anything.
11:18:19 <Jafet> fungot, can you read it?
11:18:19 <fungot> Jafet: really? what's your definition of " partition" couldn't be further normalized, even though people in general.
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12:00:03 <Snowyowl> we need a bot that makes sarcastic comments after a netsplit
12:00:17 <Snowyowl> well, not "need" exactly, but it would be nice to have
12:04:12 <fizzie> fungot: Couldn't you do that? You're good at sarcasm.
12:04:13 <fungot> fizzie: true ( lambda () proc) will evalute to ( lambda ( args...), treat it as a parameter to the procedure
12:04:29 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, you're *sometimes* good at it.
12:04:29 <fungot> fizzie: give it a fnord game?) value.
12:04:36 <fungot> fizzie: did his palm pilot
12:04:48 <fizzie> "That's what his palm pilot said."
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12:17:02 <Snowyowl> Is anyone here doing this Underhanded C Contest thing in the topic?
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12:26:54 <fizzie> The underfunded C contest.
12:27:55 <Phantom__Hoover> not like the ioccc, whoring itself out to corporate interests
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12:49:33 -!- Jafet has set topic: The channel which splits off off on-off on-topic discussion | we can all be terrible together | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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12:57:40 <coppro> Snowyowl: I probably will, since I just got a brilliantly evil idea in the shower
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13:29:25 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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15:09:23 <Taneb> boily: how did you get on with IRC bots in Haskell library stuff
15:11:56 <boily> Taneb: I used simpleirc and compiled everything with GHC 7.4. if you're talking about the very gazeous new iteration, then nothing yet.
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15:46:58 <oerjan> ok houston we have a problem
15:47:18 <boily> ~eval -1 :: Integer
15:48:05 <oerjan> someone added another insane instance, which messes up all intuitive defaulting as well
15:48:24 <Snowyowl> I go to another tab for five minutes and you guys get lisp all over my chat history.
15:48:41 <oerjan> Snowyowl: that's haskell hth
15:49:12 <HackEgo> hth here there be hambiguity
15:49:26 <Snowyowl> so not "how the hell", then, good to know.
15:49:40 <oerjan> i may not have personally added that definition hth
15:49:59 <boily> I think it was my fault.
15:50:26 <elliott> that _would_ be a very insane instance, admittedly.
15:50:31 <oerjan> elliott: hth did you do that hth
15:50:48 <oerjan> Snowyowl: i am adding your interpretation to my repertoire hth
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15:52:37 <oerjan> *boily: hth did you do that hth
15:53:41 <boily> oerjan: about adding the `? for hth hth
15:53:46 <oerjan> > Just 1 :: Maybe Integer
15:54:59 <oerjan> very well (or bad) then
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15:59:29 <oerjan> * kmc is learning the moves for rotating the centers of a Rubik's cube <-- is that something zen-like...
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16:00:56 <boily> oerjan: someday, I'll get a rubik's bonsai.
16:01:35 <oerjan> ok that picture rationale makes it make sense
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16:15:51 <Phantom__Hoover> apparently wallander is about a swedish detective who fails in everything he does
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16:17:58 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if it's actually just m times n <-- the category of matrices is isomorphic to a subset of the category of linear transformations, a special case of module category, from which you get that both categorical product and sum ar m plus n iirc.
16:18:22 <fizzie> Did you forget to "hth" that?
16:18:36 <fizzie> It looks like such a hth comment.
16:18:49 <oerjan> because they're the direct sums of modules in the larger category.
16:19:12 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: oh NOOOOOOOOO
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16:20:34 <oerjan> i'm mad as hell and i cannot take it any more, hth
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16:25:32 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> did you know: you can exponentiate by matrices <-- that's essentially how you get time evolution in quantum mechanics hth
16:28:03 <oerjan> the time evolution unitary operator is essentially the exponential of t*the energy operator. or thereabouts.
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16:44:22 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: crackstation.net can't find a match.
16:44:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> dude like what are you doing like lounging man <-- Sgeo literally _is_ the reddit Gold, hth.
16:45:17 <shachaf> oerjan: I guess the point of this `o was the "happy ending" oracleprophecy?
16:45:50 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: whatever you have hashed, there ain't no password related to it. (probably) (hth) (and another hth, just to be sure)
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16:46:29 <ThatOtherPerson> boily: btw, Google is one of the best MD5 hash crackers hth
16:46:46 <oerjan> shachaf: oh that might be. that necromancer girl was already quite seriously dead last i heard of her, so it seems unlikely (but of course in D&D not entirely impossible) that they would fight her again...
16:47:10 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, this is all presumably a hallucination due to the runes.
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16:47:38 <oerjan> indeed. although it _could_ have been prophetic itself...
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16:48:08 <shachaf> As someone pointed out the eyepatch is on the wrong eye too, etc. Presumably they're all making this up in their head based on information they know.
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17:05:59 <nooodl> shachaf: did copumpkin ever answer the "(co)products in the category of matrices" "riddle"
17:06:41 <nooodl> i've been passivly wondering about it all day but i don't even know what a product is in CT other than "it's cartesian product, in Set"
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17:07:31 <nooodl> what's a coproduct; are they also m+n for matrices
17:08:22 <Phantom__Hoover> i realise now that this'd be a lot more obvious if i'd just thought of it as the category where the objects are R^n and the morphisms are linear maps
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17:10:46 <nooodl_> "The coproduct of the family {X_j} is an object X together with a collection of morphisms i_j : X_j → X" -- hmm
17:10:49 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130513-trip_to_work.flac (that time again)
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17:11:12 <elliott> fizzie: should i be listening to these flacs you put up
17:11:24 <elliott> nooodl_: a coproduct is just [i need shachaf to link the diagram here]
17:11:27 <fizzie> Not if you like things with a "point".
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17:12:05 <nooodl_> if you take coproducts of "families of objects in C" how can coproducts in that category be matrix addition
17:12:24 <nooodl_> (same question for products)
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17:13:00 <nooodl_> elliott: do you mean this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coproduct-03.svg
17:14:01 <elliott> I mean the one he drew for me
17:14:27 <nooodl_> shachaf: ! this sounds good
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17:19:05 <fizzie> This time the flac was done by taking magnitude of the vector given by the Android tablet's accelerometer over my half-an-hour bicycle trip from work, sampled at 15 Hz; making a magnitude spectrogram of that; and resynthesizing with a 16 kHz sampling rate, so that e.g. 1 kHz tone in the output would correspond to a ~1 Hz component in the input.
17:19:12 <fizzie> (Also https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130513-trip_to_work_slow.flac a slowed-down version.)
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17:22:29 <ion> fizzie: cool
17:22:33 <boily> fizzie: my ears. they send strange signals to my brains. I'm being seriously weirded out by that file.
17:25:53 <fizzie> I think the annoying squeaks (okay, that doesn't really uniquely identify anything) might be occasions of actual peddling going on; the louder whistling around 22 seconds in a particular set of stairs; and the silent part at the end because there was this guy out in the yard I had to perform acts of "small talk" with.
17:28:12 <boily> bleh. squishy human to human interaction.
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17:34:10 <kmc> fizzie: cool idea!
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17:35:28 <kmc> Snowyowl: i vaguely want to enter the underhanded C contest but I don't have any great ideas and I've been putting off thinking hard about it
17:39:41 <fizzie> In related news, the two (2) Android sensor log twibblets I tried were both kind of sucky. First one didn't work at all with the screen locked, and the second just logs a time-delta from previous measurement in rounded milliseconds instead of an absolute timestamp, which is kind of silly. (Plus the delta field for one entry says it came -431 milliseconds after the preceding one... but perhaps I hit some sort of a time warp.)
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17:43:16 <Koen_> let's go explore the world! see you guys later
17:43:36 <boily> oh, netsplit! I love those.
17:43:36 <Koen_> talking about time warp
17:43:50 <Koen_> except with the net instead of the time, and split instead of warp
17:44:11 <boily> identical. they're just an affine transform from each other.
17:47:56 <boily> talk about a pervasive split.
17:48:10 <boily> by the sound of it, we lost Finland.
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17:50:05 <Taneb> It still amuses me that there is approximately 1 person who can write any decent Fueue programs, and he neither created the language nor any of the three known implementations
17:53:52 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, no, I created the language
17:54:05 <Taneb> And one of the implementations
17:54:25 <Taneb> The other two implementations were created by Arc_Koen, also known as Koen_
17:54:32 <Taneb> The one known Fueue programmer is...
17:54:47 -!- coppro_ has changed nick to coppro.
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17:56:00 <Taneb> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Fueue
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18:03:22 <myname> sounds a lot like befunge in less advance
18:03:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:03:49 <Taneb> It's really not much like befunge at all
18:03:55 <Taneb> A lot closer to Underload
18:05:08 <oerjan> i suppose if befunge could delete and expand cells...
18:05:53 <oerjan> of course with that and 2d you'd soon get utter topological madness.
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18:09:14 <boily> oerjan: which is good.
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18:37:38 <boily> ironicaly, I'm on a Finnish server, and it's Finland that gets splitted off.
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18:52:45 <kmc> yesterday's episode of Veep was largely about Finland
18:53:51 <boily> everything's about Finland. I think I may know why Canada's not existing enough. that country over there is stealing our existrons!
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19:07:27 <ais523> oh good, the wiki now has a pointless boolfuck derivative
19:07:32 <ais523> to go with all the pointless brainfuck derviatives
19:08:15 <ais523> also appears to have no control flow
19:08:37 <ais523> apart from a command for ending the program, which you apparently have to use
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19:16:21 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I'm looking forward to your next Tumblr post
19:17:17 <Taneb> I've a strange feeling it's gonna be titled "Derpcode: a language whose title is both an overused and unfunny meme, and an understatement."
19:17:36 <Taneb> Or something along those lines
19:18:18 <shachaf> when's my next tumblr post
19:18:24 -!- Bike has joined.
19:18:27 <kmc> do you have a tumblerchaf
19:20:01 <Taneb> Hey, I already follow you
19:20:09 <Taneb> shachaf, follow phantom-hoover.tumblr.com
19:20:36 <Taneb> You have posted literally never
19:20:54 <shachaf> I posted a post and then deleted it. hth
19:20:58 <shachaf> You should follow me on Twitter!
19:21:07 <Taneb> Except I'm never on Twitter
19:21:17 <Taneb> Can you connect your twitter to your tumblr
19:21:26 <shachaf> You're way ahead of me on these things.
19:21:47 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, what's your opinion on a/an before the letter 'h'?
19:22:12 <Taneb> Specifically, before the word "horrific"
19:23:25 <Phantom__Hoover> also my upcoming blog post will feature the word preternatural crowbarred in somewhere
19:23:37 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: if it sounds like a vowel, use "a", otherwise use "an"
19:23:47 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I wanted Phantom__Hoover's opinion.
19:23:54 <Taneb> Do you read his Tumblr? It's quite good
19:24:27 <shachaf> imo the n should go on the word after 'a'
19:25:48 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom__Hoover: I see that you are a big fan of... bricks
19:30:26 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom__Hoover: are you a vacuum who happens to be a ghost or are you the ghost of Herbert Hoover?
19:32:38 <boily> `run ls wisdom/[Pp]*
19:32:40 <HackEgo> wisdom/parsley \ wisdom/phantom_hoover \ wisdom/phantom__hoover \ wisdom/phantom___hoover \ wisdom/phantom_______hoover \ wisdom/phantom__________hoover \ wisdom/phantom____________________hoover \ wisdom/php \ wisdom/pi \ wisdom/pie \ wisdom/pietbot \ wisdom/pizza
19:32:52 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
19:32:57 <boily> `? phantom__hoover
19:32:59 <HackEgo> Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is.
19:33:02 <HackEgo> Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. Persil est une demoiselle des Mers du Sud.
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19:33:29 <boily> why the fungot did I go and edit this one.
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19:34:39 <HackEgo> Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
19:34:59 <Taneb> Why would Herbert Hoover's ghost be from Edinburgh
19:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, so when that sword alone can't stop, you turn to pietbot?
19:35:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, unfortunately, pietbot is dead
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19:38:05 <Vorpal> Holy Crap, this laptop PSU is 180 W according to the BIOS???
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19:38:46 <fizzie> These French freenode servers are so unrelliable.
19:39:00 <fizzie> Or is it "unréliable" or something.
19:39:51 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: so far i have only read a foreword
19:40:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: pretty well. how to get my attn) is an easy way to to count zeros in a list
19:40:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:40:29 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
19:40:30 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Why do you think the battery is recharged with fuel rods? :)
19:40:36 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: of the spreadsheet you provided that we agreed on." " the fast.
19:41:39 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I have a even larger power brick at work, for the docking station for this laptop
19:41:48 <Vorpal> I want to check the wattage of that tomorrow
19:42:32 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but yes this is for a power hungry monster of a Core i7 mobile workstation (quite small form factor though, 15.4" I think)
19:42:48 <Vorpal> It is just barely larger than my 15.4" thinkpad
19:43:00 <Vorpal> Slightly wider, so probably 16:9 even
19:43:34 <boily> `learn unréliable is French for «peu fiable».
19:45:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, it is a pretty nice development machine though
19:45:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, with a 250 GB Intel SSD 520
19:45:42 <Vorpal> the only machine I ever used that boots windows 7 quickly, and where windows 7 is actually responsive right after login
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19:46:15 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Passover_margarine_shortage
19:48:10 <elliott> In addition to margarine, Tam Tam crackers were also in short supply for the 2008 Passover season.[2][5][6]
19:48:14 <fizzie> fungot's enron style is slightly lacking some preprocessing.
19:48:15 <fungot> fizzie: davis., on an as needed. double-track ( or even different) directors to be " an independent on sunday. how do we get. phil gramm of texas."
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19:53:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I enjoyed your Tumblr post
19:53:56 <Taneb> http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/post/50360554295/derpcode-a-language-whose-title-is-both-an-overused
19:54:29 <Taneb> shachaf, yeah, why not
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19:54:39 <Taneb> But Phantom_Hoover writes his himself! Why can't you!
19:55:03 <shachaf> im not as good as Phantom_Hoover...................................................................
19:56:23 <Taneb> shachaf, maybe you can read Phantom_Hoover's and take inspiration
20:00:41 <Taneb> elliott, Hexham has a town diary! Did you know?
20:00:44 <Taneb> http://www.hexhamcommunity.net/pages/town-diary.php
20:02:28 <Bike> i... don't think "haberdashery" means what Phantom_Hoover used it to mean
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20:06:01 <elliott> Taneb: you should clarify that it's a different sam hughes
20:06:14 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Thanks for letting Sam Hughes live.
20:06:29 <shachaf> (It's the good Sam Hughes, not the evil qntm.org one.)
20:06:59 <elliott> Taneb: also i suggest consulting with Phantom_Hoover wrt whether he thinks Derplang is actually any good or not
20:07:49 <elliott> also i have a feeling you may find the blog spontaneously deleted if you actually threaten to track down and kill someone :P
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20:09:23 <Bike> i see elliott isn't familiar with tumblr
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20:14:46 <Jafet> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_global_rice_crisis
20:15:02 <nooodl> do you guys know about how writing a derplang implementation that does the same thing as the lua one is almost impossible
20:15:20 <Bike> that's pretty impossible.
20:16:01 <nooodl> part of it is the spec just being really bad, but, there's some crazy stuff!! like the "hidden "loadfile "command"""
20:19:12 <Bike> also hey i thought it was derp/code/, there are two different dumb languages here
20:19:27 <nortti> umh, is that ``hidden ``loadfile ``command''''''?
20:19:56 <shachaf> no, it's «"hidden "loadfile "commad"""» hth
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20:21:09 <Bike> hidden loadfile comonad
20:21:27 <kmc> Jafet: seems like a bigger deal
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20:21:32 <lambdabot> shachaf says: [comonad] Not to be confused with edwardk's effort to standardize all the common operators for automatic differentiation, "commonad".
20:21:53 <shachaf> elliott: i stopped caring about regexp golfing. or correctness. hth
20:22:22 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Icelandic_lorry_driver_protests
20:22:39 <kmc> @tell oerjan oh, there are some cubes with an image on each face, or a logo on every square, and in that case the centers can end up wrong if you solve it the normal way
20:23:01 <shachaf> 09:01 <oerjan> ok that picture rationale makes it make sense
20:23:15 <Bike> 2008 was quite a year, huh
20:24:27 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Irish_pork_crisis
20:25:04 <Bike> " However, it has been estimated that over the course of the next century, approximately 20% of the Irish population may see a reduction in life expectancy by as much as 5 years due to the contamination of pork" uh shit
20:25:26 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_States_salmonellosis_outbreak
20:25:30 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
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20:28:17 <Bike> "A number of criminal prosecutions occurred, with two people being executed," that's a bit weird
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20:28:26 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canadian_listeriosis_outbreak
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20:30:45 <kmc> Bike: china
20:33:07 <Bike> it's still the wackiest thing how china is considered communist by people
20:33:15 <Bike> i mean this is straight out of The Jungle
20:35:12 <kmc> the US was also involved in massive copyright infringement in the 19th century
20:35:15 <kmc> counterfeit goods etc
20:35:27 <kmc> same shit different day
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20:43:43 <Jafet> Uh, pretty sure no one except the chinese communists think china is communist
20:44:00 <Bike> you'd be surprised!
20:45:43 <Jafet> On the other hand, communism has never been all that well defined anyway
20:45:56 <fizzie> Has U-Tube gotten rid of the "view the playlist" option that would just view a separate list page of the playlist, instead of viewing one of the videos and a playlist sidebar that's too narrow to show untruncated titles?
20:45:57 <Jafet> Since about 1990, china might be taken as the working definition
20:46:32 <fizzie> (At least IIRC formerly the small-print "view full playlist" link in the search results window went to that sort of separate list page.)
20:46:47 <Koen_> last time I used that option fizzie, that option was still there
20:47:08 <fizzie> The link is still there, but it just goes to the last video of the playlist, for me, now.
20:48:08 <Jafet> youtube-dl downloads playlists
20:49:05 <fizzie> Like, the full contents, or just... makes some sort of playlist files? (The whole point of wanting the separate list page is that I don't want to look at *all* of this crap.)
20:50:31 <Jafet> @google youtube-dl --help
20:50:32 <lambdabot> http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/download.html
20:51:40 <fizzie> "youtube-dl --help" suggests the playlist features are for downloading all (or from A to B, or matching/not matching a given regex, or up to N) videos in a playlist.
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20:52:39 <Jafet> -e, --get-title simulate, quiet but print title
20:53:55 <fizzie> I can't figure out what URL to pass to youtube-dl in order to make it download a playlist, actually.
20:55:09 <fizzie> Presumably the old separate list page would've worked, but if I could go there, I wouldn't need youtube-dl at all; youtube-dl -e of where I end up with the "view full playlist" link just prints the title of the last video.
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20:56:23 <Jafet> I can find playlist links. Perhaps you can try turning javascript off.
20:57:04 <kmc> i have a 2×2×2 cube as well
20:57:10 <`^_^v> what is a good first eso lang to build an interpreter/compiler for? extent of my knowledge is an undergrad compilers course. i don't want to do whitespace (having already looked at the code for an interpreter) or brainfuck (too overdone?)
20:58:22 <kmc> i think most esolangs don't really exercise compilers knowledge because they're designed as flat sequences of instructions
20:58:28 <ais523> pikhq_: that's probably a bad idea
20:58:42 <ais523> parsing INTERCAL is a nightmare
20:58:43 <pikhq_> boily: That's even worse.
20:58:47 <kmc> eodermdrome?
20:59:03 <elliott> befunge-93 is easy to interpret, at least.
20:59:05 <ais523> kmc: I think serious answers would be better than joke answers
20:59:20 <pikhq_> Yeah, befunge-93 can be interpreted in an afternoon.
20:59:57 <boily> maybe an optimized binary from some variant of OISC could be interesting.
21:00:14 <kmc> a tracing JIT for a typical esolang would be cool
21:00:20 <ais523> yeah, glass is actually a sensible answer
21:01:00 <fizzie> Of course it somewhat assumes that one likes Glass.
21:01:00 <Jafet> brainfuck has nearly unlimited scope for compiler optimization
21:01:24 <pikhq_> Yeah, if you're interested in optimization Brainfuck actually isn't terrible.
21:01:27 <Jafet> Most brainfuck compilers are limited to trivial things like run-length encoding
21:01:28 <`^_^v> i'll look into some of those, thanks
21:01:42 <pikhq_> Nontrivial Brainfuck optimization is an actual challenge.
21:03:28 <FreeFull> Brainfuck, where RLE encoding can be an optimisation
21:03:37 <Jafet> Research into brainfuck optimization techniques may also yield practical results; imagine the bfjoust language extensions
21:04:13 <Koen_> so what exactly do you think "practical" mean?
21:04:17 <Jafet> I wonder if x86 chips handle consecutive nops
21:04:31 <fizzie> Research into brainfuck optimization has yielded several stepping stones on the road to practical interstellar travel and curing various diseases.
21:05:00 <Bike> demyelinating disease? consider it Brain Fucked (TM) by esolang enterprises llc
21:05:07 <Jafet> Koen: antinonatheoretical
21:05:10 <pikhq_> Jafet: No, but x86 has a number of recommended nop sequences.
21:05:14 <boily> Jafet: you don't want to fiddle with the nops.
21:05:19 <Koen_> are you implying the long-awaited space lift is gonna be built out of stones?
21:05:29 <Koen_> and programmed in brainfuck
21:05:29 <pikhq_> So that you can pad code with a wide number of lengths whilst taking 1 cycle.
21:06:07 <Jafet> Advanced shellcode acceleration
21:06:41 <pikhq_> nop slides tend to prefer 0x90. :)
21:07:14 <fizzie> Multibyte nops where every suffix is still a nop sounds like a "practical" shellcode acceleration technique.
21:07:17 <boily> that question won me a raspberry in a not-quite-sober jeopardy! session.
21:07:22 <FreeFull> Multi-byte nops are good if you want to change the instruction at some point to some other multibyte instruction
21:07:27 <olsner> trust x86 to come up with so many creative ways to do nothing
21:07:45 <pikhq_> fizzie: I'm pretty sure x86 doesn't have those though.
21:08:06 <kmc> the long nops are often built with unnecessary prefix bytes
21:08:10 <kmc> so a suffix of that would also be a nop
21:08:14 <kmc> but probably not down to 1 byte
21:08:33 <olsner> if it's only prefixes and 0x90, it should work I guess
21:08:48 <Jafet> modrm is a suffix, unfortunately
21:09:02 <fizzie> pikhq_: Intel's recommended 2-byte nop is 66 NOP, for which the suffix is a nop.
21:09:48 <fizzie> The longer ones don't, at a glance, seem to have that property.
21:10:04 <fizzie> (They don't have prefixes; it's more about dummy operands.)
21:10:19 <fizzie> (Don't know if AMD's recommended NOPs are more prefixy.)
21:10:50 <kmc> http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.9.2/arch/x86/include/asm/nops.h
21:11:00 <olsner> it would be sort of interesting to calculate how many possible nop instructions that x86 has
21:11:37 <kmc> "mov eax, ax" doesn't assemble does it
21:11:49 <Bike> different things can be nops in different contexts, can't they?
21:11:53 <kmc> also mov eax, eax isn't a nop in 64 bit
21:12:04 <Bike> like you could play with the flags before a cmp or whatever
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21:12:11 <olsner> Bike: to make it easy let's only count the ones that are always nops
21:12:28 <Bike> booooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiing
21:13:03 <fizzie> None of the nops.h lists seem to correspond with (this version of) Intel's optimization manual.
21:13:04 <olsner> perhaps you could take instructions that are >90% likely to be nops for a random context
21:13:23 <Bike> Kind of a pointless criterion, don't you think
21:13:46 <Jafet> On ARM, 0x00000000 is and r0, r0, r0, which is the standard nop
21:13:57 <kmc> that's handy
21:14:01 <Jafet> I wonder how often strncpy is used on ARM
21:14:14 <elliott> I hear 0 isn't a nop on x86 for some deliberate reason??
21:14:37 <olsner> maybe they didn't plan for a nop, and started assigning opcodes at 0
21:14:40 <Bike> "fuck zeroes" - intel engineers
21:14:51 <fizzie> Also: "The other NOPs have no special hardware support. Their input and output registers are interpreted by the hardware. Therefore, a code generator should arrange to use the register containing the oldest value as input, so that the NOP will dispatch and release RS resources at the earliest possible opportunity."
21:15:00 <fizzie> Not that you'd expect a kernel to do that.
21:15:15 <kmc> 0000 add [rax], al
21:15:23 <kmc> udcli is the best
21:15:39 <kmc> @google udcli
21:15:40 <lambdabot> Title: udis86 disassembler library for x86
21:15:42 <fizzie> ADD r/m8, r8, more generally.
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21:16:22 <olsner> oh, it's a disassembler, I thought it was an instruction
21:16:36 <Jafet> %rip, %(lambdabot)
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21:17:05 <Bike> obviously there should be an architecture with a disass instruction
21:17:28 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Also: "The other NOPs have no special hardware support. Their input and output registers are interpreted by the hardware. Therefore, a code generator should arrange to use the register containing the oldest value as input, so that the NOP will dispatch and release RS resources at the earliest possible opportunity." <-- yes, but some specific ones actually have hardware support these days
21:17:29 <Jafet> VAX (?) had an execute-from-register instruction
21:17:31 <kmc> and a datass instruction
21:17:40 <Vorpal> Read the Intel Manual, it has a list of them
21:17:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was a quote from the Intel manual.
21:17:50 <Vorpal> Intel Optimization manual maybe
21:17:54 <Bike> Jafet: xec? i wanna say that was pdp
21:18:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Intel Optimization manual, in particular.
21:18:03 <Bike> or was that execute from memory
21:18:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, really? I remember reading that it optimises away the registry usage when scheduling
21:18:28 <Vorpal> Was it AMD that did that then?
21:18:44 <olsner> Jafet: S/390 has a similar one as well, I think it does something like combine an instruction in memory with immediate operand values stored in a register
21:18:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Only for XCHG EAX, EAX. Though this is not the latest copy; maybe it's changed.
21:18:56 <fizzie> "Try to observe the following NOP generation priority: * Select the smallest number of NOPs and pseudo-NOPs to provide the desired padding. * Select NOPs that are least likely to execute on slower execution unit clusters. * Select the register arguments of NOPs to reduce dependencies." must be loads of joy to be a compiler developer.
21:19:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay, so it does it for that specific one at least?
21:19:08 <fizzie> (Now I'm mildly curious to see what GCC's nop-padding code looks like.)
21:19:09 <ellipsis753> Hey, I was wondering if anyone managed to make a two instruction language that's semi-turing complete? I've seen a few 3-instruction languages but non that require only 2.
21:19:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's why the quote started with "the *other* NOPs".
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21:19:26 <Bike> fsvo "instruction"
21:19:33 <Jafet> I've only seen gcc pad with 0x90
21:19:38 <olsner> Bike: plus various single combinator bases
21:19:50 <fizzie> Jafet: I'm reasonably sure it knows about the longer nops.
21:19:51 <Vorpal> Jafet, I seen it pad with mixed stuff
21:19:57 <Bike> yeah, SK is the easiest to remember though
21:19:57 <olsner> pads don't need to be nops
21:20:12 <Bike> ellipsis753: oh, and OISC, obviously
21:20:15 <olsner> just valid instructions to prevent "oops there are invalid instructions here, let's go slowly"
21:20:47 <FreeFull> ellipsis753: There is a one-instruction turing complete language
21:21:37 <Jafet> How many registers does an OISC need for completeness?
21:21:56 <Bike> I thought oisc with subleq only used memory.
21:21:58 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/UaOF <-- that's quite the NOP.
21:22:12 <fizzie> "data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)", 14 bytes.
21:22:24 <kmc> there is a maximum valid instruction length though
21:22:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does data32 mean?
21:22:28 <olsner> nopw? boring! it should say what the instruction is
21:22:32 <Jafet> Bike: how much memory, then
21:22:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: The operand size override prefix.
21:22:42 <kmc> Vorpal: it's an operand size override
21:22:57 <Vorpal> That you can repeat like that?
21:23:17 <Bike> How many brainfuck cells are needed again?
21:23:18 <olsner> hmm, but doesn't the operand size prefix give you 16-bit operand size in long mode?
21:23:54 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think they have more than one name for it. But not sure.
21:24:32 <Vorpal> Bike, 3 of infinite size iirc? Or infinite one-bit
21:24:34 <fizzie> With -m32 it decides to go with two seven-byte nops; lea 0x0(%esi,%eiz,1),%esi; lea 0x0(%edi,%eiz,1),%edi
21:24:48 <fizzie> (Clearly it's thinking about the registers, given that it's used different regs for those two.)
21:24:57 <olsner> dummy register to specify instruction encoding?
21:25:04 <Jafet> You can't use one-bit memory with an OISC because you wouldn't be able to address most of it.
21:25:20 <Vorpal> olsner, I would guess it is the register iz extended to 32 bits?
21:25:28 <Vorpal> But I never heard of an iz register
21:25:30 <pikhq_> Vorpal: There's no such register.
21:25:33 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, it's gas's silly name for a zero in that context.
21:25:52 <kmc> probably relates to the hilaribad libopcodes API
21:26:04 <kmc> they can't just write 0x0(%esi,0,1)
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21:26:35 <olsner> a hysterical raisin then
21:27:00 <Jafet> Or in fact that is just (%esi)
21:27:44 <olsner> the index is always a register, I think
21:27:45 <ellipsis753> Ok. I was a little vague but I think the answer may be that there is non yet in the form I am looking for. A language which requires no registers and just two a program and data tape. Two instructions that take no arguments and do not rely on anything on the program tape for meaning. NOP counts as an instruction. Sort of turing complete as in must be able to do any calculation in finite memory (so doesn't need to
21:27:45 <ellipsis753> be able to allocate more). Does not need input/output and memory mapping seems like cheating. Does that make sense and does such a language exist? I was thinking of trying to make something out of only analog components and tape that could interprete one of these simple languages.
21:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> sad grownup realisation of the week: letting taneb assume my identity to make violent threats to random people over the internet may not be a great move
21:28:22 <Bike> "able to do any calculation in finite memory" isn't true of turing machines~
21:28:37 <fizzie> The padding depends on the architecture, of course. If I tell it to do -march=barcelona (AMD thing), it aligns functions to 32 bytes with two data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1) instructions.
21:28:42 <ais523> you're describing a "bounded-storage machine"
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21:28:53 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: you're a grownup now? welcome to boringland
21:29:20 <ellipsis753> Bike, those look cool. Although ideally I'd like to have no registers.
21:29:45 <Bike> SK doesn't have any registers. bam solved
21:30:07 <ellipsis753> Bike, Ok. Sort of turing complete as in forth.
21:30:08 <Bike> I'm not sure what you mean by not relying on the tape for meaning
21:30:19 <Vorpal> What about the 2,3 thing that ais proved TC?
21:30:48 <Vorpal> ellipsis753, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-3_turing_machine
21:31:18 <ellipsis753> Bike, I mean, nothing like "Read the next 5 bits to work out what this single instruction does. Then jump 6 bits ahead".
21:31:21 <Vorpal> guy from in here proved it TC
21:32:23 <Jafet> Boringland: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/kadmy/kadmy1008/kadmy100800061/7565319-huge-construction-equipment-metal-bore-for-earth-drilling-machine.jpg
21:32:37 <Bike> ellipsis753: Would you consider an increment instruction to violate that? I mean, the state of the tape afterwards relies on the state of the tape before its execution.
21:33:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also I don't think it's all *that* sanctioned to put in redundant prefixes; it just works. From what I recall, the Intel manual doesn't quite explicitly forbid it, but doesn't allow it either. (The chapter on instruction format says "it is only useful to include up to one prefix code from each of the four groups", but doesn't say what happens if you decide to be not useful. Possibly some of the figures also imply an upper limit.)
21:35:46 <fizzie> It does explicitly say "use of repeat prefixes [that is, rep] -- with other [than string / I/O] instructions is reserved; such use may cause unpredictable behaviour", which makes that rep ret thing a bit funny.
21:35:48 <kmc> i think the maximum instruction length is 15 bytes
21:36:45 <Vorpal> kmc, even with AVX and all that modern stuff?
21:37:21 <ellipsis753> Bike, increment instruction as to increase a number on the data tape? No I only have issues with an instruction relying on other instructions. (on the program tape). However ideally if the data tape only contained bits it would be a lot easier to make.
21:37:43 <kmc> not positive
21:37:45 <ellipsis753> Vorpal, That's interesting, however surely it requires 3 instructions (and 2 states?)
21:37:53 <fizzie> 15 has at least been one of the limits.
21:38:25 <olsner> 15 is still mentioned in the manuals that are new enough to have AVX
21:38:39 <olsner> (but that doesn't rule out an exception for them)
21:38:54 <fizzie> The optimization manual says, on the topic of the Pentium M's decoder, that the "first decoder is capable of decoding one macroinstruction -- it can handle any number of bytes up to the maximum of 15." But that's very circumstancial evidence.
21:40:41 <fizzie> Shame there's no 256-bit immediates in AVXy stuff.
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21:41:18 <Bike> ellipsis753: how do you distinguish "other instructions" from say numbers
21:42:27 <ellipsis753> Bike, the program tape would normally be read only and never be read other than for the current instruction being run currently. It should not store numbers.
21:42:57 <Bike> it kind of does, for your question you'll need a very well understood notion of "instruction"
21:43:40 <Bike> for example, with the 2-3 machine, you're apparently counting each symbol as an instruction, whereas with other m-n machines you'd count them just as data
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21:45:43 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/PSgf "ah, screw it, I give up", says GCC.
21:46:57 <olsner> keep trying, maybe there's a magic align-functions value that will give you an awesome easter egg
21:48:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about 48?
21:49:33 <olsner> I think it only accepts powers of two, it doesn't even bother aligning otherwise
21:49:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: It has a different meaning for non-power-of-two sizes.
21:49:39 <kmc> istr that functions in the linux kernel aren't aligned; this was a problem because ksplice can't patch a function with fewer than 5 bytes of code
21:50:26 <kmc> there were some cases where we would hot-patch a function to do nothing, but we'd add some NOPs in case we had to patch it again
21:50:42 <fizzie> Vorpal, olsner: -falign-functions=24 means "align to 32 bytes but only if you can do it by skipping 23 bytes or less".
21:50:49 <Vorpal> kmc, you were involved in ksplice?
21:51:10 <Bike> fizzie: is that ever needed
21:51:20 <fizzie> Bike: No idea, but that's what it means.
21:51:33 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah I worked there for the 8 months before it was bought by oracle
21:51:36 <fizzie> "-falign-functions=n: Align the start of functions to the next power-of-two greater than n, skipping up to n bytes. For instance, -falign-functions=32 aligns functions to the next 32-byte boundary, but -falign-functions=24 aligns to the next 32-byte boundary only if this can be done by skipping 23 bytes or less."
21:51:59 <olsner> rough guess, some alignment speed vs space trade off control
21:52:05 <kmc> definitely my favorite job ever
21:52:06 <ellipsis753> Wikipedia also considers them instructions "executes the instructions in the following table". Unless I'm mistaken. But yes, you're correct. I'm being bad at explaining myself. Sorry. I guess I'm currently thinking of trying to implement something like minifuck (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minifuck) and wondered if anyone had managed to get it down to just two commands.
21:52:23 <kmc> what's funny is that then I worked with mostly the same people on a different project (web startup) and it was a bad fit and I left
21:52:53 <kmc> i thought that the job was all about the people but now I'm more cynical
21:53:05 <kmc> plus it wasn't *exactly* the same people, some of them went elsewhere and they brought in others
21:53:17 <olsner> seems odd for people working on ksplice to go work on a web startup
21:53:38 <elliott> the k in ksplice stands for kmc
21:53:49 <kmc> there's way more money in webapps than in technically complex computer systems work
21:54:04 <kmc> and like, they'd already done the latter, so why not try something different
21:54:09 <kmc> which is what I thought as well, but I didn't like it
21:54:19 <elliott> is there actually way more money in cloning IRC
21:54:24 <elliott> like don't enterprises and shit care about ksplice
21:54:48 <kmc> shrug, their target price for selling the new company is way more than what ksplice sold for
21:55:02 <kmc> it's still a long way from that happening
21:55:09 <olsner> the goal was to sell the company? not to make whatever you made?
21:55:09 <elliott> this business model where you start off by planning to get bought out......
21:55:16 <elliott> because you can't make a profit because you have no actual business model
21:55:25 <elliott> fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk startups
21:55:26 <kmc> well ksplice was making a profit
21:55:36 <kmc> though 'making a profit' is pretty arbitrary
21:55:38 <Bike> elliott, maoist revolutionary software developer
21:55:45 <kmc> if you have revenue, you can put it in the bank or you can spend it on growth
21:55:58 <kmc> it would be idiotic if a small company planning on rapid growth had a lot of cash in the bank
21:56:18 <kmc> so even when startups have a reliable revenue stream, they tend to be just-under-profitable
21:57:09 <kmc> now I agree that companies with no business model which are just getting bought on hype are dumb
21:57:15 <kmc> but that's a more specific case than just "not profitable"
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21:58:54 <Bike> ELLIOTT FOR PRESIDENT
21:58:59 <kmc> getting bought is a popular option now because the regulatory burden of an IPO is a lot more onerous after the Sarbanes-Oxley Act
21:59:06 <Bike> president of maoism
21:59:19 <kmc> you'll recall that in the '90's dot com boom there were a lot of IPOs of just-formed companies
21:59:26 <kmc> and not so much in the current bubble
21:59:32 <kmc> well elliott won't recall because he was an infant then
22:00:01 <kmc> anyway people do also start companies with the intent to keep them small and make a steady stream of revenue and have a fun job and be your own boss and whatever
22:00:07 <kmc> sometimes called "lifestyle business"
22:00:09 <kmc> dumb term I know
22:00:13 <kmc> but that's not typically what's meant by "startup"
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22:00:43 <kmc> "startup" implies rapid growth
22:00:46 <Bike> is lifestyle capitalism like lifestyle anarchism (except you get money)
22:01:06 <kmc> i'm no fan of paul graham as you all know, but he does know this world and i thought http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html was a pretty good essay
22:02:13 <olsner> hmm, growth? why would you do anything for growth?
22:02:32 <kmc> because you can get rich
22:02:47 <kmc> if you own 20% of a business and it grows by a factor of 1000
22:02:50 <kmc> then you are rich as fuck
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22:03:14 <Bike> like kmc's hero, paul graham.
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22:03:37 <olsner> I see, I guess that motives the hell out of some people
22:03:48 <kmc> money is useful
22:03:59 <kmc> no matter what your goals are in life, having a bunch of money tends to help
22:04:38 <elliott> kmc: i'm younger than you so i probably have longer to accomplish all your goals, therefore give me all of your money
22:04:46 <kmc> money doesn't buy happiness but it buys the freedom to pursue happiness, and the power to help others in ways you can't directly help them
22:05:29 <elliott> pretty sure money actually does buy a lot of happiness
22:05:59 <olsner> some money does, more money than that doesn't (or does but much less efficiently)
22:06:06 <kmc> people tend to assume that the pursuit of money implies the pursuit of shitty status symbols like a fancy car
22:06:09 <pikhq_> It doesn't buy happiness, but it sure as hell permits it.
22:06:13 <kmc> but it's your money, you can spend it on what you find worthwhile
22:08:12 <kmc> one could argue that "money doesn't buy happiness" is propaganda that the ruling / capital-owning class uses to dull the economic self-interest of the working class
22:12:15 <kmc> back later
22:13:31 <olsner> anyway, the point I forgot to make was that the goal of your startup (grow it and sell it) was probably the reason it was so crappy compared to previous projects with the same people
22:13:53 <shachaf> Bike: should i see the film _The Bridge Over the River Kwai_
22:14:30 <shachaf> oh, wait, it's only playing this thu-fri anyway
22:14:43 <shachaf> Is there any film I could ask you about that you wouldn't say I should watch?
22:15:05 <Bike> Yeah, like... Avatar.
22:16:08 <shachaf> Bike: How about I see it if you see a nother film?
22:16:41 <Bike> well, get back to me when you've made your decision.
22:17:24 <Bike> http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BODk0NzYzMzc4OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTQyNTUyMQ@@._V1_SY317_CR2,0,214,317_.jpg looks p. intense
22:18:00 <shachaf> i watched it on someone's recommendation and enjoyed it
22:18:07 <shachaf> it's not the same sort of film as that other film, though
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22:30:07 <Bike> don't like what
22:30:21 <Bike> i don't know, i haven't seen it
22:30:35 <shachaf> and you aren't going to, either?
22:33:17 <Bike> well, is it your decision
22:33:35 <shachaf> If I see this film you'll see that one?
22:38:09 <shachaf> i suspect i might be getting the better end of that deal
22:38:38 <olsner> depends on which kinds of movies you both enjoy
22:39:25 <olsner> bridge over the river kwai is probably "better", but funny bones looks funnier
22:39:55 <olsner> then you should love the bridge over the river kwai
22:40:07 <olsner> (unless that has comedy in it)
22:40:46 <olsner> have you been to ikea at closing time? they play the theme from that movie to get people to speed up to the checkout
22:41:11 <shachaf> i've only been in sweden for two days in my life
22:41:25 <olsner> ikea exists everywhere, hth
22:42:26 <Bike> I don't understand what that "hth" could possibly mean.
22:42:55 <olsner> Bike: it means hth, hth
22:43:20 <shachaf> Bike: listen to olsner hth
22:44:31 <fizzie> "Hyperbolic tange here"?
22:44:35 <olsner> I'll just go hth myself into bed
22:44:56 <fungot> fizzie: if we do not as a matter of the last few years.
22:45:08 <fungot> fizzie: by the time we tried to keep that in mind that the true costs.
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22:55:09 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy should i see Bike's film
22:57:08 <shachaf> That's why I get double 'e's.
22:57:15 <fizzie> ^ask mnoqy Should shachaf see Bike's film?
22:57:15 <fungot> Yeah, I'll get right on that. (Not.)
22:57:27 <Bike> Don't be an asshole, fungot.
22:57:28 <fungot> Bike: on the first i finally, we came to the transactions of others we hoped it would have the time to get to the last two and a one of a/ a program of the messages that have the public.
22:57:37 <fungot> Yeah, I'll get right on that. (Not.)
22:57:56 <fungot> (Yeah, I'll get right on that. (Not.))S
22:58:00 <shachaf> If I get press it with a particular strength. I get two 'e's.
22:59:53 <ion> @type (not.)
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