00:00:16 Well there seem to be other ones 00:00:23 yeah i don't think any of them are on sale or nuthin 00:00:28 probably because noone cares 00:00:36 this is where i link the datahand 00:00:38 it's open-source so it must be good 00:00:50 Bike, http://www.amazon.com/The-PEREGRINE-Wearable-Interface-Medium/dp/B0035HABMM 00:00:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id3GQHXVjQY this is basically the opposite of futuristic 00:00:53 awesome 00:01:00 hey can you wire a keyglove to a pair of google glasses, and, you know, be *cool* 00:01:00 uh don't talk back to me vorpal 00:01:02 elliott, I already mentioned the datahand above 00:01:09 Bike, XD 00:01:21 the best thing about wearable computers is that people have been saying they look stupid since before the web 00:01:41 Optimized for WoW, DotA, League of Legends, StarCraft 2 00:01:45 i rest my case. 00:01:47 heh 00:01:48 yeah 00:01:55 Yes, and possibly sound stupid if you are using voice control 00:02:04 "Google glass, take a picture" 00:02:15 Saying that in public might not be such a smart idea 00:02:16 Stupid and/or hallucinating. 00:02:23 Apparently you can't use this thing as a keyboard. 00:02:32 ok but 00:02:36 well okay, google search lied to me 00:02:41 i think people are used to talking to nobody at this point 00:02:47 point. 00:02:50 given that handsfree stuff exists 00:03:01 ##electronics is being exist again whyyyyy 00:03:09 it's being exist 00:03:14 damn 00:03:14 being exist: truly the worst curse 00:03:15 sort of like everything else 00:03:18 that exists 00:03:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id3GQHXVjQY this is basically the opposite of futuristic <-- yes, and it looks very hot too 00:03:21 hey, people talking in the phone with a handfree set already look stupid 00:03:25 you know what i'm just not going to fix it 00:03:49 Vorpal: "hot", I think you mean "optimized for arctic use". think like a marketer 00:03:50 Koen_, even more so if bluetooth so there is no visible cable 00:04:01 yup 00:04:08 Bike, eh I have gloves like that. So not arctic. Just Nordic 00:04:17 and you know I keep thinking they're talking to me 00:04:20 i'm pretty sure nordland is in the arctic. 00:04:32 Norrland yes 00:04:42 But not the south of Sweden where I live 00:04:51 Not arctic climate here 00:05:00 oh hey I was at a bar earlier today 00:05:15 did you just realize that Koen_ 00:05:17 and I wanted a beer and the waiter told us what kind of beers he had 00:05:22 Bike, it would be arctic climate if it wasn't for the gulf ocean stream, which carries hot water up here 00:05:32 and he had affligem, and when he said it it sounded like "african" 00:05:47 and you know, African beer? I had never tried that before so I asked for one 00:06:01 i only drink asian beer 00:06:40 Bike: I know it's not quite what they were thinking of but "hand keyboard" makes me think of these things 00:06:43 http://ulva.com/images/maltron-right-hand785x581.jpg 00:06:48 mnoqy: I just wanted to share that african beer was a myth 00:07:21 what a crappy myth 00:07:35 Fiora: I have no idea what position my hand is expected to be in to type on that 00:07:56 elliott, hm.. "On a typical PC keyboard of today, the Caps Lock is pressed by the weakest finger pinky. The Ctrl key can be easily pressed with palm.", I just tried, on a laptop with ctrl outmost (nope), on my MS Natural (hell no) and on a standard straight PS/2 keyboard (not really without hitting other stuff, but least improbable of all the alternatives) 00:08:13 well your hands are gigantic or whatever 00:08:14 so 00:08:18 yes 00:08:19 they are 00:08:24 mine aren't :P 00:08:34 fairyhands elliot 00:08:43 yeah ##electronics is not "kmc social values approved" 00:08:46 who the heck presses ctrl with the palm 00:08:50 press the ctrl key with your palm? @_@ 00:08:51 perhaps i should have made that clear before 00:08:52 though again I find hitting alt with thumb most comfortable 00:08:55 ctrl is 100% a pinky key 00:09:01 I can do ctrl-i with one hand on a MS Natural, awkward and not possible without turning myself yes, but that is the span 00:09:04 alt is thumb yes 00:09:06 I have to move my entire hand over to do that 00:09:23 mnoqy, exactly 00:09:29 kmc: well it was obvious within two minutes of going in. still quite irritating 00:09:49 ##electronics sounds bad 00:09:52 how do you press anything with your palm. 00:10:02 Ko....en..... 00:10:08 oh god 00:10:09 whoah 00:10:09 my name 00:10:19 the guest of christmas past has come for you, koen 00:10:31 -!- Guest21998 has quit (Changing host). 00:10:31 -!- Guest21998 has joined. 00:10:32 what do I do 00:10:36 -!- Guest21998 has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 00:10:44 Koen_, you said that thing 00:10:45 Bike, I suspect you could reliably hit space with the lower part of your palm (though not on a laptop or ultraflat), but what would the point be 00:10:49 about voices 00:10:52 yes 00:11:03 Definitely possible on my MS Natural 00:11:25 I think there's some animal on the roof 00:11:33 or in the wall 00:11:42 and they're... talking? 00:11:42 Btw, it was good getting a split keyboard, turned out i was hitting g with the wrong hand before. 00:12:03 Phantom_Hoover, gnomes 00:12:18 Or some such 00:12:37 i dont worry about "correct hand".. i often hit things with the wrong hand if it's easier to hit them that way the way my hands are situated 00:12:48 or i just always hit them with the wrong hand id 00:12:56 k 00:13:04 elliott, with palm for ctrl I can't hit anything closer than the F keys with my fingers without them hurting 00:13:16 anyway my point is not that ctrl is in a good position really 00:13:21 i dont think it hurts my productivity or moral fibre 00:13:21 just that caps lock isn't in a good position either 00:13:21 good 00:13:29 well okay, that might be true 00:13:50 elliott, where would you have it? I think I would actually suggest pedals for the modifiers 00:13:57 mnoqy: or i just always hit them with the wrong hand idk <<< wouldn't that make it the right hand then? 00:14:03 well like I said the position of alt seems best for the main command modifier key 00:14:08 Koen_: left, actually 00:14:15 so maybe I will swap alt and ctrl next time I am on non-OS X 00:14:17 right as in notwrong 00:14:33 elliott, say left foot down = ctrl, left foot forward = alt, right foot down = shift, right foot forward = altgr 00:14:48 Koen_, why were you talking about voices 00:14:48 well I don't think foot pedals on a laptop is such a winning idea 00:14:52 for god's sake 00:14:57 elliott, well yes, that would be an issue 00:15:07 Phantom_Hoover: can you hear them too? 00:15:20 00:15:25 i... 00:15:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 00:15:29 is this some sort of stupid joke or 00:15:45 rest peacefully, ph 00:24:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:24:18 hi 00:32:28 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/10/mod-trident-scotland-independence hahaha 00:33:06 just let them have some nukes 00:33:08 what's the big deal 00:33:22 well they don't want them 00:33:33 and if the UK doesn't have a nuclear submarine patrolling at all times France will invade 00:33:40 of course 00:34:55 imo we should keep them 00:35:02 otherwise it'll be braveheart all over again 01:15:37 haha rich! 01:15:52 thanks for the article 01:16:28 `relcome johnny57 01:16:32 ​johnny57: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:18:19 for some reason when i saw that text i thought of fruit polos 01:21:52 `pblist 01:21:54 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pblist: not found 01:21:54 `plist 01:21:55 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: plist: not found 01:21:58 `blist 01:21:59 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blist: not found 01:22:00 `flist 01:22:00 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: flist: not found 01:22:02 `pbflist 01:22:03 pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia 01:22:16 Phantom_Hoover: that was sad 01:22:38 why are you and i not on that 01:23:21 do we have `alwllist 01:23:33 `alillist actually 01:23:34 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: alillist: not found 01:23:36 waaaaah. 01:24:05 i don't see any strips after honk, phantom. 01:24:20 `allelelist 01:24:22 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: allelelist: not found 01:24:41 well nobody told me when honk came out 01:26:21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitchhiker's_thumbs.jpg omg there's a name for this?) 01:27:26 funky 01:28:07 Huh, tongue rolling *isn't* inheritable? 01:28:50 Isn't it just not Mendelian? 01:29:51 "There is little laboratory evidence supporting the hypothesis that tongue rolling is inheritable and dominant. A 1975 twin study found that identical twins were no more likely than fraternal twins to both have the same phenotype for tongue rolling." 01:30:03 huh 01:30:43 but earwax still is apparently? 01:31:01 * Fiora has the dominant gene yay 01:31:13 what are the consequences of the dominant gene 01:31:20 (The musculature of the tongue is crazy btw() 01:31:30 the wet type is dominant and dry is recessive, it says? 01:31:35 ah 01:31:41 i don't know which type of earwax i have 01:31:45 and maybe I would be happy not knowing 01:31:45 it also says that dry is mostly found in asians and native americans 01:31:46 so... 01:32:27 I guess I got that from my dad, though it just says "more likely", so 01:32:48 I guess tongue rolling is a lot easier to show around in a bio class xD 01:33:01 -!- Suchorski has quit. 01:33:14 oh! and there's the tasting "PTC" thing 01:34:40 yeah, you can't exactly do much with ability to smell cyanide, or albinism 01:34:58 what's tongue rolling? 01:35:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rolled_tongue_flikr.jpg 01:36:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slide8uuu.JPG 01:36:27 eew 01:37:00 I can roll my tongue the other way 01:37:01 thats pretty gross ph 02:01:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:04:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:19:51 "any compiled language can have BOFs" 02:19:56 [buffer overflows] 02:37:45 -!- atehwa_ has joined. 02:43:46 -!- Guest90495 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:43:47 -!- Koen_ has quit (*.net *.split). 02:43:47 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 02:43:48 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (*.net *.split). 02:43:48 -!- Lymia has quit (*.net *.split). 02:45:06 people are wrong on the internet 02:45:29 shit. 02:45:56 no sleeping tonight kmc 02:46:58 kmc, I knew him IRL 02:47:00 fortunately i have many techniques for not caring that people are wrong on the Internet 02:47:07 Sgeo: oh, well, people are sometimes wrong IRL too 02:47:10 He's a pen tester 02:47:12 i am frequently wrong anywhere 02:47:20 Sgeo: ballpoint or fountain? 02:47:29 etration 02:47:34 The best kind of pen 02:49:01 pen 15 club 02:49:20 -!- Lymia has joined. 02:49:20 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 02:49:21 -!- Lymia has joined. 02:49:37 apparently hume did a pretty good criticism of gofai. i'm thrill'd 02:49:51 -!- SirCmpwn has joined. 02:50:07 i saw a seagull basically hovering about 4 feet above the ground 02:50:10 on an updraft 02:50:16 they are so skilled 02:50:30 birds own, imo 02:50:42 yes 02:51:40 seagulls will swoop down and take your food but they aim at a point away from you and change course at the last moment 02:51:45 in order to avoid tipping off others 02:53:21 there are a lot of mourning doves in my new neighborhood, which makes me happy 02:56:28 * kmc → dim sum 02:57:16 is that german for sleeping 03:04:05 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:15:16 -!- Koen_ has joined. 03:15:41 Sgeo: I don't even know the difference between a compiled language and an interpreted one 03:16:31 compiled languages are faster, duh 03:21:38 -!- sacje has joined. 03:25:16 "compiled into machine code that is directly executed by the OS/Processor" 03:25:17 hth 03:25:34 no don't try a serious explanation 03:25:39 I wasn't trying it 03:25:44 That was his explanation 03:25:52 oh 03:25:57 ok well it's dumb still 03:26:03 so dumb, imo 03:26:25 "trivial languages that you make up to prove your points are irelivant 03:26:26 " 03:27:14 hey stop arguing with the wrong person 03:27:37 I did 03:27:42 About half an hour ago 03:27:48 Because he had other things to do 03:52:58 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:59:17 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:05:21 * Sgeo sticks out his tongue at those who say 8GB should be enough 04:05:28 Almost reached that point earlier today 04:05:37 Two users logged in, a lot of work stuff and some home stuff 04:06:03 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 04:09:08 -!- kallisti has joined. 04:19:45 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:21:20 -!- Bike has joined. 04:23:21 -!- Koen_ has joined. 04:23:47 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:24:20 -!- Koen_ has joined. 04:39:43 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:46:15 -!- Bike has joined. 04:53:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:57:37 -!- sacje has quit (Quit: sacje). 05:00:58 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 05:03:08 Did Phantom_Hoover seriously `pbflist? 05:03:57 What's with him? 05:04:05 good questions 05:08:29 hi mnoqy 05:08:32 hi 05:09:05 did you leave all the channels you used to be in!! 05:09:31 yes 05:09:36 especially #esoteric 05:09:46 #esoteric isn't a real channel 05:09:55 oonbotti........this was your cue........!!! 05:10:29 oonbotti isn't alive it can't understand you 05:10:31 also it's not here 05:10:45 bicycles aren't alive either 05:11:46 uh dude i'm right here 05:11:47 rude. 05:13:36 why is it rude 05:14:20 -!- oonbotti2 has joined. 05:14:37 did someone mention me? 05:15:05 #esoteric did 05:15:08 #esoteric 05:15:16 #uselessbot 05:15:20 #drugz 05:15:58 it is a rewrite, doesn't have #esoteric but I can add it if you want 05:17:50 -!- oonbotti2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:18:07 -!- oonbotti2 has joined. 05:18:13 #esoteric 05:18:13 Nothing here 05:33:38 was that command ever intended to have a useful purpose? 05:33:46 nortti: ^ 05:34:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:37:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:40:56 huh Gregor is not here, or is he hiding under another nick again 05:41:35 i can see no sufficiently ridiculous ones :P 05:42:54 * oerjan checks a couple obscure ones just in case 05:43:20 -!- oerjan has set topic: Now playing Where's Gregor | <3 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 05:44:10 2013-07-11 00:17:35 (EEST) -!- Gregor!~Gregor@libdl.so has quit [*.net *.split] 05:51:28 Who got the infamous libc.so? 05:53:06 NOBODY KNOWS 05:53:09 or do they 05:56:26 I don't. 05:57:06 hi 05:58:13 hi kmc 05:58:18 how goes it 05:58:57 http://whois.domaintools.com/libc.so 05:59:05 Tech Contact ID: mxm1148892775 05:59:13 kmc: turns out i'll be meeting the people near the powell st bart at 19:00 05:59:16 ok 05:59:22 that's a fine bart 06:00:19 Sgeo_: "Contact ID: mxm1148892775 -- Internationalized Name: Marcel Meyer -- Internationalized Organization: levelsystems -- Internationalized Street: Siedlungsstrasse 6c -- Internationalized City: Erding -- Internationalized Country: DE -- Email: marcel.meyer@levelsystems.de " 06:00:41 germany is quite the internationalized country 06:00:45 no:bart = en:moustache, hth 06:00:46 shachaf: what sort of people are they 06:00:49 shachaf: oh, incidentally, the sencha reminded me a bit of local anaesthetic 06:00:55 levelsystems: Wir arbeiten lieber für unsere Kunden als eine hübsche Webseite zu machen... 06:00:59 that was what I was thinking of earlier 06:01:25 Gracenotes: that was the green rubbery tea? 06:01:46 `slist 06:01:48 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 06:01:51 yes. 06:02:00 I should figure out at some point if all sencha is like that. 06:02:01 Forgot about it 06:02:07 kmc: some of them irc people whom i've briefly met before 06:02:10 I probably should have stuck with jasmine, but I was curious 06:02:15 Ugh I am tired and hungry and I think sleep deprivation has been making me sick 06:02:30 Gracenotes: tea adventure is good hth 06:02:39 shachaf: anyone i know? 06:02:40 yes adventure ftw 06:02:49 kmc: I don't think so. 06:03:14 cool 06:03:16 have fun 06:03:43 will do my best hth 06:04:07 Gracenotes and i had fancy tea today btw, it was p. good hth 06:04:14 nice 06:04:18 should i become a tea snob 06:04:26 sounds good 06:04:34 ask mnoqy 06:04:37 hi 06:04:43 hi mnoqy 06:04:44 hi 06:04:45 should i become a tea snob 06:04:50 sure if you want 06:05:17 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 06:05:36 misinformation on stackoverflow :'( 06:05:41 why do i bother 06:05:53 good question 06:06:01 add a new answer, someone will surely upvote it 06:06:04 bahahah 06:06:38 imo people much prefer answers like "ghc auto-memoized it" and "tail-call elimination" to answers like "GMP is just faster than Java's BigInteger" 06:06:47 haha 06:07:02 yes, SO has many features that pinpoint it a lot more as a place-of-social-exchange rather than an authoritative-answer-on-unique-question. 06:07:25 i'm... not sure how memoization would help with bignum arithmetic 06:07:42 well, it wouldn't help in this case, unless the function was called more than once 06:07:48 it's not really a fair marketplace of answers. it's an extremely unfair one that can still be effective, if you're lucky. 06:07:53 i'm trying to imagine how it possibly could 06:08:15 i guess you'd need a situation where the thing being memoized couldn't just be done by the ALU in negligible time anyway 06:08:18 Bike: well, if you're computing bignum fibonacci numbers or something naïvely it would probably be p. helpful 06:08:27 ok but that's really stupid. 06:08:48 yes 06:09:01 like really dumb. might as well implement multiplication for fixnums yourself. in base 10. 06:09:06 in this case it's factorial which is even stupider since memoization doesn't even help (unless you use it more than once) 06:09:08 base 1337 06:09:12 also, Haskell's Integer type isn't even GMP a lot of the time 06:09:32 that's true, but maybe doesn't make a huge difference? 06:09:32 computing factorials fast is a very interesting problem 06:09:33 also my favorite part was when someone said the haskell code was faster than the java code because ghc does strictness analysis 06:09:36 agh 06:09:43 I would expect that GMP is also pretty fast on machine-size integers 06:09:45 shachaf: wow.......... 06:09:48 haha 06:10:00 the question at hand: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17584630/why-is-factorial-calculation-must-faster-in-haskell-than-in-java 06:10:00 java has a very basic strictness analyser 06:10:03 what does that... but... aaaaaah 06:10:06 takes up only 0 lines of code 06:11:28 man java bignums are always so wonderfully verbose 06:11:45 what the hchrist is this cache thing, help 06:12:05 In Haskell, all functions are pure unless they're doing IO (see link) 06:12:17 strictly speaking Java uses an array of int to implement BigInteger, but it also stores more information (5 additional words, plus 'vtable'). 06:12:22 kind of true 06:12:23 christ. christ help 06:12:33 This is able to do tail-call optimization because it's just iteration. The same can be done in Java with a for loop as in your example, but it won't have the benefit of being functionally pure. 06:12:47 true by way of being tautological 06:13:04 though only because the condition is never satisfied 06:13:06 ok so anyway. computing factorials is interesting. 06:13:11 Haskell, on the other hand, for quite big integers, stores the number of bytes used, fact that it's long, and the number itself. 06:13:11 well I guess you could also say it has nothing to do with functions 06:13:11 elliott: well if your flavour of Haskell has unsafePerformIO then it's true by being tautological, but not vacuous 06:13:18 hardly as much. 06:13:21 i'm not sure how practical it is to factorize and stuff 06:13:35 since if you're doing 1000000! you probably don't need precision anyway? 06:13:35 kmc: okay but, I don't think considering unsafePerformIO when talking about the semantics is worthwhile. 06:14:03 > product [1..1000000.0] 06:14:05 *Exception: stack overflow 06:14:10 exactly, lambdabot 06:14:21 that's the real problem here 06:14:23 who wants to read a pop sci article about homotopy type theory http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23749-mathematicians-think-like-machines-for-perfect-proofs.html 06:14:28 > foldl1' (*) [1..1000000.0] 06:14:29 Infinity 06:14:29 elliott 06:14:29 please no 06:14:29 Yep. That's the correct answer. 06:14:32 i get enough shit in pop sci about brains 06:14:33 Bike: right from the title 06:14:38 you know it's going to be amazing 06:14:38 i... i can't take the math. 06:14:40 i can't deal. 06:14:44 it's too much 06:14:53 im not up for anything that amazing imo 06:15:10 As well as know, types didn't exist before machines. 06:15:10 *we 06:15:11 > pi 06:15:12 3.141592653589793 06:15:30 > e 06:15:31 e 06:15:34 e 06:15:36 sss. 06:15:37 Bike: it has your aczel 06:15:37 > exp 1 06:15:38 > pi :: Cereal 06:15:39 can't find file: L.hs 06:15:39 2.718281828459045 06:15:42 > pi :: Cereal 06:15:43 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841972 06:15:45 what's cereal 06:15:53 cereal 06:16:02 cant believe you dont know what cereal is 06:16:06 sourcereal.com 06:16:08 > 2 ^ 7 -- i also forgot 06:16:08 128 06:16:11 ok good 06:16:33 please tell me youve seen sourcereal.com bike 06:16:36 its important 06:16:37 > showCereal 100 pi 06:16:39 i think i have actually 06:16:40 "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406... 06:16:45 > let stirling n = ((n/exp 1)^n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n)) in stirling 1000000 06:16:46 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0) 06:16:46 arising from a use of `M582996387.sho... 06:16:52 sourcereal.com is v. important 06:16:55 help 06:17:07 :t \n -> ((n/exp 1)^n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n)) 06:17:08 (Floating b, Integral b) => b -> b 06:17:14 ugh. 06:17:18 :t \n -> ((n/exp 1)**n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n)) 06:17:19 Floating a => a -> a 06:17:25 yeah everything's terrible imo 06:17:27 and, for the grand finale 06:17:32 > (\n -> ((n/exp 1)**n)*(sqrt (2 * pi * n))) 1000000 06:17:34 Infinity 06:17:38 yay! 06:17:43 * Bike cries 06:18:28 > ln 10 06:18:29 Not in scope: `ln' 06:18:29 Perhaps you meant one of these: 06:18:29 `n' (imported from D... 06:18:31 > log 10 06:18:33 2.302585092994046 06:18:56 > iterate log 10 06:18:57 [10.0,2.302585092994046,0.834032445247956,-0.18148297420509205,NaN,NaN,NaN,... 06:19:07 `addquote what's cereal cereal cant believe you dont know what cereal is 06:19:07 is there a log with base? 06:19:11 1071) what's cereal cereal cant believe you dont know what cereal is 06:19:12 logBase 06:19:15 thx 06:19:20 Anyway, the HoTT article has some nice quotes from Bauer 06:19:31 > logBase 100 10 06:19:32 0.5 06:19:44 > logBase 10 100 06:19:45 2.0 06:20:03 > let shitfuckfuckfuck n = n * log n - n in shitfuckfuckfuck 1000000 06:20:07 1.2815510557964273e7 06:20:12 man 06:20:16 i am the worst 06:20:19 at everything 06:20:23 forever. 06:20:46 > map (length . takeWhile (join (==)) . iterate log) $ iterate (*2) 1 06:20:47 [3,3,4,4,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,... 06:21:01 mnoqy: you forgot to give a definition 06:21:18 Cereal can be defined as something that is made from cereal. 06:21:23 SourCReal 06:21:24 are we sure that's not cocereal 06:21:58 oh, e7. i didn't fuck up too bad. 06:22:35 > 1.2815510557964273e7 / log 10 06:22:36 5565705.518096747 06:22:41 > let x = map (length . takeWhile (join (==)) . iterate log) $ iterate (*2) 1 in findIndices not $ zipWith (==) x (tail x) 06:22:44 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 06:22:54 so can haskell bignums handle five million digit numbers 06:23:05 > let x = take 1000 . map (length . takeWhile (join (==)) . iterate log) $ iterate (*2) 1 in findIndices not $ zipWith (==) x (tail x) 06:23:06 [1,3,21] 06:23:17 Bike: it's just gmp 06:23:20 (usually) 06:23:26 yes well i don't know what gmp can handle 06:23:31 i am the worst, as previously mentioned 06:23:31 Bike: that's a lot of digits 06:23:45 Bike: can we settle on two million digits 06:23:49 gmp can handle as many digits as can into... what's the order of magnitude... TB? 06:23:55 *fit 06:23:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:24:13 µB 06:24:15 Well, modulo other constraints besides just pure size. 06:24:22 why did i get the base 10 digits first hm 06:24:36 i.e. addressability 06:25:40 re aczel, it's kind of a shame i'm too principled to pretend anything brain related depends on mathematical foundations, or else i'd totally write an awesme counterpart to shittyaczelpaper based on hott 06:26:37 brains? they're pretty great, but what about them 06:26:58 ok so the abc conjecture proof includes a paper with the title "Inter-universal Teichmuller Theory I: Construction of Hodge Theaters" 06:27:02 why did nobody tell me this before. 06:27:09 elliott: dude those papers are great 06:27:15 they make no sense 06:27:31 Gracenotes: you're missing this whole "backstory" that i already explained to elliott 06:27:54 you should have been hanging out with me in Palo Alto 06:28:05 that's like ten waleses away though. 06:28:10 rather than explaining things to elliott 06:28:14 Bike: what aczel paper are we talking here 06:28:15 thats a good paper title 06:28:22 higgledy piggledy / GMP Integer: / only constrained by the / size of your RAM. // sure, i'm neglecting the / addressability; / 32-bit are some / kind of a scam 06:28:30 er 06:28:32 messed up the end 06:28:33 oh well 06:28:35 Maximum number of limbs in a GMP number is whatever fits in an int on your platform; the limbs themselves are typically 32 or 64 bits. 06:28:57 these double dactyl things are hard ok 06:29:02 32-bit ones are / some kind of scam 06:29:06 elliott: the bikeologist one 06:29:15 -!- Taneb has joined. 06:29:31 So that's somewhere around 68719476736 or 137438953472 bits. 06:29:34 hi Taneb 06:29:36 Hi 06:29:37 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Gone). 06:29:55 Bike: what 06:29:57 write me a double dactyl and/or limerick plz thx hth 06:30:05 ugh like 06:30:07 fine 06:30:21 I will also accept poems in onegin stanza 06:30:27 @google 137438953472 bits 06:30:29 Bike: help! 06:30:31 http://www.matisse.net/bitcalc/?input_amount=137438953472&input_units=bytes¬ation=legacy 06:30:31 Title: Bit Calculator - Convert between bits/bytes/kilobits/kilobytes/megabits/megab... 06:30:36 any takers 06:30:41 @google 137438953472 bits in terabytes 06:30:42 0.015625 terabytes 06:30:43 http://letconversion.com/data-storage-conversion/from-terabits/to-bytes 06:30:43 Title: Terabits to Bytes Conversion Calculator - LetConversion 06:30:49 I will even take both tetrameter and pentameter 06:30:50 wow that's not a lot of TB 06:30:55 Gracenotes: sure, go for it 06:31:02 12:18 a biologist mentioned it (it was a dumb mention) 12:18 of course it was, a biologist made it 06:31:10 that's "the backstory" 06:31:15 Bike: Wow, that's pretty rude. 06:31:31 hello 06:31:37 hmm i was going to make a mean joke but i won't make it 06:31:42 sry 06:31:48 no meanness to Bike 06:31:55 biologist? hm.. dunno 06:32:08 I give up on things 06:32:12 There was a man on Wight/whose limericks were kinda shite/When asked for a ditty/his response was so shitty/His entire audience got a fright 06:32:12 well 06:32:16 you know who aczel is right 06:32:20 imo onegin stanzas aren't so great usually? in english anyway? but maybe they are 06:32:41 he did all that set theory stuff 06:32:50 Gracenotes: you could also just write me a plain old iambic pentameter shakespeare-style sonnet imo 06:32:59 and a biologist was like "wow this is totally relevant to my field" 06:33:03 even though it wasn't & that's dumb 06:33:09 and wrote a paper about it. 06:33:10 shachaf: you still haven't given me something funny and specific you don't like 06:33:18 How was that limerick 06:33:18 as well 06:33:37 Gracenotes: oh the limerick i was talking about before: 06:33:51 Taneb: good, maybe change last line to "His toupe perked up in fright" 06:34:02 "Double dactyl verse form is, perhaps unsurprisingly, rare in popular music." 06:34:04 ...makes about as much sense? or less, which is better. 06:34:17 A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric." 06:34:32 nice fucking the unicode up!! 06:34:45 ? 06:34:52 because ꙮ is alphanumeric? 06:35:41 Is it bad that I read that little square as "multi-ocular o" 06:35:54 what square 06:35:55 wait 06:35:55 When it didn't render at all 06:35:57 the worst backstoyr 06:35:59 oh 06:36:00 what's going on ehre 06:36:03 my terminal is broken I guess! 06:36:12 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/s is rendering it "just fine" 06:36:17 And I am on a mobile device 06:36:34 Which may or may not support unicode 06:36:47 okay, I think I've reached a local maxima with mine 06:36:53 I've decided you don't like #haskell 06:36:58 no one does 06:37:03 There was a young critic named shachaf / Who put #haskell flags on a mast-half / When asked why he said / "I don't think it's yet dead, / but I hope it'll get there quite fast-fast" 06:37:08 yes, last-rhyme is a cop-out 06:37:20 they're all cop-outs :'( 06:37:27 who doens't like #h a s k el ldl 06:37:35 imo import more hebrew to rhyme with "shachaf" 06:38:08 yeah I know, I don't want/do code-switching 06:40:34 having a hard time coming up with an anti-biologist limerick here 06:42:10 how about make fun of vitalism 06:42:45 There were some poetic motes/Penned by a chap named Gracenotes/The meter was sluggish/The rhymes were rubbish/And it wasn't even the worst thing he/she wrote 06:43:06 Sorry 06:43:13 almost self-referential, that one! 06:43:19 :p 06:43:56 I can't think of anything that rhymes with Taneb 06:44:25 Bike: can you finish this anti-biologist limerick for me 06:44:28 ps it's also an anti-bike limerick 06:44:32 just needs a last line 06:44:32 :o 06:44:36 naan ebb? 06:47:44 bread shortage 06:47:54 there once was a man in nantucket / he watched birds and the bees and a duck pit / til one day at noon / they drained the lagoon / and right then and there he said "fuck it" 06:47:57 best i can do elliott 06:48:01 There once was a boy called elliott/Who thought biologists smell-iot/He wrote a short rhyme/In limerick time/And said "with the last line to hell-iot" 06:48:09 Bike. 06:48:11 yiou were meant to finish MINE 06:48:13 WOW 06:48:15 so impolite 06:48:19 wait where's yours 06:48:28 ok here you go "there once was a biologist named Bike / who found his head stuck on a pike. / the previous day / channel regulars say /" 06:48:37 Taneb: good very good 06:48:55 does that first line even fit the meter... 06:48:59 nice start 06:49:24 Taneb: can you please fix your meter thx 06:49:30 Nah 06:50:07 look 06:50:07 Some physicists sought to compete / With biologists who lived down the street / The biologists leisured / Since they couldn't be measured / Because all of their work was discrete. 06:50:09 fuck the meter 06:50:11 I'm a poet 06:50:28 dude did you rhyme "leisured" with "measured" 06:50:30 what kind of accent is taht 06:50:53 oh right people say it like "ledgered" 06:50:54 weird 06:51:11 Bike: did you rhyme "nantucket" with "duck pit" 06:51:36 There once was a beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck 06:51:39 pretty good, eh. not exactly a searing punchline, but... it's basically true... 06:51:39 mnoqy: ^ 06:51:51 fuck doesn't rhyme with fuck :| 06:51:55 shachaf: hey that works! almost 06:51:55 id you rhyme summer with fuck 06:52:00 the real flaw with mine is that it's terrible 06:52:00 yes 06:52:03 -!- oerjan has set topic: Vogon poetry's got nothing on us | <3 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 06:52:06 just in general 06:52:21 fatal flaw 06:52:44 oerjan: hey my original one was good 06:52:55 i mean thee ꙮ one 06:53:01 that was the best limerick of all 06:53:04 ILLL GRANT THAT ONE 06:53:05 I'm not sure how to make one criticizing physicists without going for the obvious stuff (like cow spheres) 06:53:08 maybe i should write a lickermich 06:53:11 **likercimv 06:53:12 A man once insulted my metrical technique/Despite my skills being at humanity's peak/So during the night/Purely out of spite/I killed him as he slept under a sheet 06:53:14 **lickerbic 06:53:17 (lim,erick 06:53:17 someone make a very esoteric limerick 06:53:18 lickermich 06:53:25 stop before you hurt yourself :o 06:53:33 Help 06:53:37 Taneb: good 06:53:45 Taneb: :'( 06:53:45 Taneb: reasonable 06:53:49 Gracenotes: i'd be impressed to see a limerick criticizing renormalization 06:53:51 it actually hurt to read that 06:54:20 There once was an expert on brainfuck / how the fuck do you rhyme with brainfuck 06:54:37 chained muck 06:54:39 'summer' rhymes with 'brianfuck' I think 06:54:50 fain luck 06:55:28 Cain suck(s) 06:55:33 yo what's a bad thing you can do to someone that ends with -ition 06:55:43 perdition? 06:55:49 not exactly... 06:55:55 being petitioned sucks 06:55:55 oh, actually, that's a good one 06:56:05 sedition? 06:56:06 (in Christian theology) A state of eternal punishment and damnation into which a sinful and unpenitent person passes after death. 06:56:08 there once was a mathematician / fit only for eternal perdition / on type theory he said / "I'd rather be dead / than formulate proofs with precision" 06:56:17 uh 06:56:19 that doesn't rhyme 06:56:24 stop it with the bad rhymes 06:56:26 shut up 06:56:30 just stop it 06:56:32 i bet mnoqy likes my limerick 06:56:35 better to not rhyme at all 06:56:36 its alright.. 06:56:41 wow 06:56:43 tell me how you really feel 06:56:45 i think mathematician/perdition is ok 06:56:52 There once was an expert on brainfuck/On whose shoulder sat a plain duck/He looked at it and said/"Hop on to my head/"And this will be the best day of summer" 06:56:54 Bike: precision????? 06:57:02 Eh 06:57:10 shachaf: i'm sorry, that _does_ rhyme. it just doesn't scan. 06:57:12 Fuck the last line 06:57:25 oerjan: no, it doesn't do nothin' 06:57:27 -ion is enough for it 06:57:35 it seems like it scans to me... 06:57:44 me too 06:57:45 i guess 'eternal' is too long 06:57:58 instead of "eternal perdition" i originally had "harsh extradition 06:57:59 " 06:57:59 how about 'utter' 06:58:00 so y'know 06:58:02 it got better 06:58:03 (thinks) how do i make the rhyme (stops thinking) 06:58:24 A dangerous mission 06:58:26 yeah, i think 'utter' works. 06:58:30 you're welcome, elliott. 06:58:31 ok how about some drugz rhymes 06:58:33 A kitty did mew in the night / For her hunger did hit with such fright / She did look to her mother / As there was no other / With nipples 06:58:36 Nuclear fission 06:58:43 you had to expect an anti-limerick at some point, yes 06:58:54 either that, or laziness. 06:58:55 haven't half of these been anti limericks 06:59:01 they all have 06:59:02 sssshhhhh. 06:59:03 it's not funny 06:59:06 it's just bad 06:59:07 oh shachaf~ 06:59:13 you're all just being bad 06:59:16 ~ 06:59:17 just stop it ok 06:59:18 ~ 06:59:30 would you stop 06:59:31 I wanted to choose the most saccharine topic and the most predictable of subversions 06:59:39 Just for you, shachaf~~ 06:59:50 too many tildes help 07:00:04 ≈ 07:00:11 there once was a hoover ethereal / who despised derivative material / on the wiki he saw / some brainfucking lore / and gave brick-brain punishment imperial 07:00:12 hi Bike≋ 07:00:13 more unicode hearts too 07:00:17 ^^^ new limerick ^^^ 07:00:33 -!- shachaf has left. 07:00:36 RIP 07:00:40 rip. 07:00:46 do you like my limerick 07:00:47 there once was a dude called shachaf / now hes gone / rip 07:01:08 elliott: you seem to like packing syllables into that second line 07:01:13 New rule: no limericks allowed for the next 2 months 07:01:15 what did it ever do for you to deserve such bounty 07:01:22 all in favor yell angrily at your screens 07:01:55 too tired for yelling 07:01:56 i abstain 07:02:32 there once was a lover of cereal / who sought to define the material / on sourcereal.com / they dropped the truth bomb / "it is something made from cereal" 07:02:59 There once was an onslaught of tilde s/By Which a poetry veteran was killed/Our painful rhymes/And meter less than sublime/Only stood to give him a pretty good thrill 07:03:09 something that's made out of cereal 07:03:21 Bike: http://sourcereal.com 07:03:28 have to stay as true to the source material as possible 07:03:46 Definition of Sour Cereal 07:03:46 Cereal can be defined as something that is made from cereal. One can put it in a bowl, on a plate, or leave it in a box. Cereal is a nice thing to think about and sometimes eat. Sour cereal is an example of a type of cereal with spices. 07:04:08 Brb,.getting cereal 07:05:23 07:05:24 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:09:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 07:24:05 -!- kallisti has joined. 07:24:05 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 07:24:05 -!- kallisti has joined. 07:26:58 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:27:13 I am back 07:29:18 hello you literally missed nothing 07:32:09 Yay 07:32:17 I enjoyed my cereal 07:48:29 i think badly scanning poetry is from now on a bannable offense hth 07:48:53 i'm sorry, elliott, that means you cannot write poetry any more 07:50:50 oerjan: no, it just means I'll be banned from it. but happily I have the power to remove bans! 07:50:58 or maybe not without +R. fuck &, also, shit 07:51:03 *for it 07:51:29 repeated offenses _may_ affect your ability to unban hth 07:51:59 it's just protecting sentient life in the universe, i hope you understand this is necessary 07:52:40 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 07:54:49 i missed a lot though 07:58:37 hi kmc 07:58:39 i'm tired 07:58:48 hi elliott 07:58:51 shachaf left :/ 07:59:13 i was about to nominate him as poet laureate 08:03:11 ¾ 08:03:22 maybe i should sleep 08:03:39 ® 08:03:55 Þ 08:04:04 µ 08:04:20 ¶ 08:04:34 ™ 08:04:50 ± 08:04:57 Yay 08:04:58 It's special-characters hour here at the #esoteric. 08:06:04 ıf you w®ıþ€ wıþh əlþ-ŋ® ðowñ oñ þhıš ĸ€yßoə®ð ləyouþ, þh€ €ñ𠮀šulþ šþıll ĸıñð of looĸš lıĸ€ ®€ŋulə® þ€×þ. 08:06:10 ★ 08:06:29 imo thats kind of like badly scanning poetry 08:07:02 The use of altgr-b for the not-beta-but-German-ss ß is kind of rude. "Looks like B" indeed. 08:12:00 it's Compose S S 08:13:15 ſ is Compose F S which seems... all right? 08:13:27 €€€€€ 08:13:50 ¥¤£¤ 08:13:57 ("if you write with alt-gr down on this keyboard, the result is rather disappointing.) 08:14:05 *+" 08:25:23 -!- kiview has joined. 08:25:49 -!- kiview has left. 08:27:30 -!- carado has joined. 08:30:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:53:56 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:00:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:01:28 oh, this simon tatham puzzle was made by ben olmstead 09:01:48 heh 09:02:00 "Inertia" 09:03:29 is simon tatham a brand 09:04:08 almost 09:04:37 he made putty and this puzzle collection, both of which i use 09:23:23 oerjan: you won't be using one of those for long, hth 09:23:56 That sounds like a threat hth 09:24:22 yes. I'm going to threaten him with a linux installation CD 09:24:25 irl 09:45:23 LIBDBUSMENU-GLIB-WARNING **: Trying to remove a child that doesn't believe we're it's parent. 09:50:29 that happened to mnoqy too 10:01:10 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:05:00 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:13:37 -!- nooodl has joined. 10:27:41 Bike: ghc -e 'print (product [1..905381] :: Integer)' | wc -L ==> 5000004 10:49:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: LAter). 10:50:57 coppro: hi I have clang questions 10:51:20 coppro: 1. is clang's output without any -O at all as completely-terrible as gcc's is i.e. do I always want at least -O or -Os or whatever 10:51:29 coppro: 2. does clang give worse warnings without -O like gcc does 10:52:38 1. Yes to the part before the i.e., I think, but definitely no to the part after it 10:53:10 have you seen gcc's -O0 output 10:53:13 2. I'm pretty sure that the answer is no 10:53:47 I've probably seen some of it at some point 10:54:38 well I don't see how you could stand ever using it :P 10:54:52 it's like the output of a toy C compiler you would write in a weekend for fun 10:55:01 Do you compile stuff in order to look at the generated assembly? 10:55:12 I think clang only uses FastISel at -O0 10:55:18 no but I don't want to feel like I'm running a Python program :( 10:55:23 Do you ever want to read -O0 assembly 10:55:34 it does shave 15 seconds off the build time though 10:55:39 Which means it should be significantly (once your program is big enough) faster to compile stuff at -O0 10:55:42 which is nice because I'm really lazy 10:55:54 well, compared to -O2, a bit less compared to -Os 10:55:55 haven't tried -O 10:56:06 Isn't -O equal to -O2 in gcc and hence clang 10:56:23 what really 10:56:25 that must be new if so 10:56:30 pretty sure -O1 is a thing 10:56:34 elliott: python cannot run, it slithers 10:56:39 Yes -O1 is a thing 10:56:39 or was -O made to alias to -O2 at some point 10:56:40 rather than -O1 10:56:46 -O is equal to -O1, I believe. 10:56:51 Okay, it's -O1 10:56:51 (Still.) 10:57:06 also I think clang doesn't support gcc's fancy -ggdb3 stuff 10:57:08 which makes me sad 10:57:10 I thought it was -O2 ever since the -O[123] were introduced 10:57:13 pgcc -O6 hth 10:57:21 and apparently it doesn't do any more than line numbers if you use anything other than -O0??? 10:57:21 But I'm probably thinking of a different compiler 10:57:28 can I have a compiler refund 10:57:37 Any more than line numbers in what? 10:57:51 -g Generate debug information. Note that Clang debug information 10:57:51 works best at -O0. At higher optimization levels, only line number 10:57:51 information is currently available. 10:57:56 admittedly, this is more reason to use -O0 10:57:57 The return shipping for your gnu is one gnu. 10:58:01 Ah, okay 10:58:14 I don't think I've ever used debug information for anything other than line numbers 10:58:26 well I just like knowing there's something fancy involved you know 10:58:30 In any language, ever 10:58:39 I think -ggdb3 made something perceptibly nicer when I switched to it with gcc 10:58:40 but I forget what 10:58:46 Which is actually a bit surprising now that I think about it, but oh well 10:59:17 -!- rom__ has joined. 11:01:08 -!- rom__ has quit (Client Quit). 11:01:53 building to a ram disk 11:01:55 am I hardcore yet 11:02:04 Is there any other debugging information than line numbers and symtab 11:02:06 oh good that made the build slower 11:02:09 (???????) 11:02:21 Perhaps your ramdisk is swapping 11:08:29 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 11:12:01 -!- shachaf has joined. 11:34:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:35:01 so, I came across a fun pathological function in my research yesterday 11:35:27 that I'm having trouble expressing in any programming language (other than languages as low-level as, say, VHDL) 11:35:47 when you call it, it returns two functions/closures, let's call them f() and g() 11:36:06 hi ais523 11:36:09 hi elliott 11:36:20 err, there are side effects involved here, so let me try to be clear about the types 11:36:36 my function is (IO ()) -> (IO (), IO ()) 11:36:40 I think 11:36:44 not very good at Haskell 11:36:50 sounds reasonable 11:37:00 maybe it should be -> IO (IO (), IO ())? 11:37:26 no, I'm reasonably sure it isn't, in this case; there are no side effects involved until you actually execute the return values 11:37:42 OK 11:37:57 so it's just two IO () -> IO () functions 11:38:01 yeah 11:38:20 yep, it's equivalent to that, although conceptually weird thinking about it 11:38:28 actually, hmm 11:38:35 maybe I do need an extra IO in order to avoid having to compare functions 11:38:53 um, that sounds implausible but ok 11:38:55 I guess it is IO () -> IO (IO (), IO ()), just so that the two return values can be aware of each other 11:38:59 ok 11:39:18 anyway, if you call either of the return values, then the original argument starts executing 11:39:39 and the return values stop executing when either the original argument stops executing, or the other return value is called 11:39:52 as in, while the original argument is executing, there has to be at least one of the return values executing 11:39:54 but they can take it in turns 11:40:11 Stop as in they can continue or as in they die 11:40:18 as in it returns 11:40:28 so, e.g., I call pathological(delay 1000), that gives me two functions f and g 11:40:40 if I call f, then it won't return for 1000 time or until I call g 11:40:52 if I call g, then f returns, now g won't return until the original 1000 time is up or I call f again 11:40:54 conflation of functions and programs upsets :( 11:40:58 err, yes 11:41:20 actually in Haskell this doesn't need two functions, because you could call the same function simultaneously from different threads 11:41:50 if you spend a few days staring at linear logic, you start ceasing to be able to comprehend the idea of copying data 11:42:20 so I could just make it (IO ()) -> IO (IO ()) 11:42:27 So this is like a weird version of spawn? 11:42:33 yeah, a bit 11:42:49 it feels like a concurrency primitive, but it doesn't match any of the concurrency primitives I've ever seen 11:42:55 what did you find it in? 11:43:05 it was a counterexample to something I was trying to prove 11:43:19 Such that if you run the action from one thread, it returns in any other thread that's running it? 11:43:36 shachaf: yeah 11:43:58 or well, the idea is that once you start it running, it finishes, but threads can pretty much change /which/ thread is running it arbitrarily 11:44:23 OK. 11:44:42 the analogy I use as a mental model of it is, you start some long-running task that needs someone to constantly supervise it 11:44:43 Instead of being an action can this be a sort of lockish thing? 11:44:50 but you can change who's supervising it 11:45:09 Such that you "wait" on it and then someone else can wait on it instead. 11:45:21 shachaf: I tried to implement it with locks, but failed, and it's quite easy to prove (using the same research that discovered it in the same place) that that's impossible with a static concurrency model 11:45:47 (e.g. one where each fork() has to have a matching wait() called from the same thread) 11:47:41 I guess you could handle it with an integer semaphore and a thread that's happy to clean up for itself and doesn't need to report back to a parent 11:48:58 where is that asshole Phantom_Hoover 11:49:00 hmm… now I'm tempted to add this as a concurrency primitive to INTERCAL 11:49:06 eep 11:49:17 it fits the action-at-a-distance flavour of INTERCAL quite well 11:49:23 did someone make a brainfuck derivative 11:49:27 did you make a brainfuck derivative 11:49:28 he triggered the pbflist and there is no new pbf. false positives are a waste of my time! 11:49:30 hi 11:49:40 quintopia: That's what I said! 11:49:43 pbf = perry brainfuck 11:50:07 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, you're here now. Don't do the thing you did. 11:50:34 `pbflist 11:50:37 pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia 11:50:43 * shachaf sighs. 11:50:47 /kick Phantom_Hoover 11:50:54 You're just being annoying, you know. 11:51:45 i think on some level you're to blame for taking the `list system seriously 11:52:59 any system for systematically pinging people should be taken seriously 11:53:12 ais523, what use is this new concurrency primitive? 11:53:14 because pinging people for no reason is annoying. it's also called "spam" 11:53:22 Vorpal: I don't know that it's useful 11:53:25 the people who do it are called "spammers" 11:54:06 ais523, Are you sure you couldn't implement it with other primitives anyway? I believe I can think of a way, though it isn't wait-free. 11:54:10 i suggest a collective dropping of the topic 11:54:39 Vorpal: as I said, it's provable that you can't do it with a static concurrency model, but if you have more general concurrency models it's implementable 11:54:55 -!- FreeFull has joined. 11:55:44 ais523, I admit I'm not an expert on this area, and I'm not quite sure what a static concurrency model is, but I'm thinking in terms of pthreads with semaphores message queues. 11:55:59 semaphores and* 11:56:57 Hm 11:57:08 Or maybe not. I'll have to work out the details 11:58:25 I think pthreads doesn't have any particular "parent" / "child" division, or at least lets children outlive their parents 11:58:28 so it's probably workable 11:58:36 it's surprisingly nontrivial even if your language is expressive enough, though 11:58:39 Well yes, is that a requirement for static concurrency? 11:58:45 I suspect you could do it in terms of a couple of semaphores and mutexes in fact. 11:59:25 Vorpal: that's pretty much what static concurrency is 12:00:37 Here is how I would do it: Transform the task into three functions: f,g and h, have h execute the actual task, in a separate thread, have f and g wait on a signaling semaphore, these can either be signaled by h completing, or the other function of f or g being called. You will need to refine it a bit to handle two functions calling f, or f/g being called after h completes but the idea should work I beli 12:00:37 eve? 12:01:16 ais523, unless I misunderstood the problem that seems like a pretty straight forward implementation in a pthreads style environment 12:01:20 Vorpal: yeah, I think that works 12:01:58 I believe it is an utterly useless thing though. :) 12:02:44 :) 12:02:47 kmc: do you have any particular recommendations wrt what ThinkPads are good to buy (I realise this is hopelessly vague) 12:02:47 out of interest ais523, what else defines a static concurrency model? 12:03:07 elliott: kmc has a thinkpad x1 carbon and it looks p. nice 12:03:24 I love STM, but people say there might be something better possible 12:03:28 Vorpal: well it basically means that your only thread-creation primitive is a "run X and Y in parallel" function, or can be implemented in terms of that 12:03:33 which doesn't return until both X and Y return 12:03:42 Ah 12:03:59 OK, benmachine++ 12:04:08 Er, mis-up-arrowed. 12:04:16 ais523, But you are free to do whatever in terms or semaphores, message queues, critical sections and so on? 12:04:30 Oh well, he helped me with a thing in /msg the other day, he can keep the extra karma. 12:05:12 shachaf: /set window_history on 12:05:15 Vorpal: yes, there's no restriction on synchronization primitives 12:05:23 Also btw, I never understood the difference between a critical section and a mutex. They just seems like two ways to express the same thing? 12:05:36 Vorpal: a mutex is one way to implement a critical section 12:05:49 a critical section is a semantic property rather than some specific implementation 12:05:55 Ah, I see. 12:06:08 elliott: Why do I want that? 12:06:17 shachaf: it makes up-arrow work better 12:06:26 also re: X1 Carbon, that is one of the models I am looking at 12:06:44 I frequently e.g. /msg things to lambdabot and later up-arrow in another window. 12:06:53 Well, I suppose I could up-arrow in the lambdabot window. 12:06:57 Eh. 12:07:01 I'll keep it like this for now. 12:07:12 (The reason for the mis-up-arrow is that my palm touched my touchpad.) 12:07:13 huh, I didn't realise there were clients that didn't have per-window history 12:07:14 the resolution on them is kind of bad though it seems :( 12:07:22 (Which scroled the scroll-wheel, etc.) 12:07:26 (or per-tab) 12:07:27 -!- oonbotti2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:08:10 ais523, you could emulate non-static concurrency in a static concurrency using a concept of worker thread pools? Just start x number of threads and make them never complete. Now you can use message queues to submit jobs, and then you can implement the weird primitive above 12:08:15 Or am I missing something? 12:08:51 shachaf: also they're p. expensive 12:09:02 You can just emulate a non-static concurrency on top using semaphores to signal "completion" of your threads and so on 12:09:18 Vorpal: oh, in my case that didn't work because we can't send anything more complex than an int 12:09:27 the perils of hardware compilation 12:09:31 Well right 12:09:41 I guess you could translate everything into bytecode and then interpret it at the other end :) 12:09:49 elliott: you should get the clevo W740SU so you can tell me whether it's any good hth 12:09:59 ideally I would like something with an ultrabook form factor and battery life and workstation-replacement specs and netbook price........ 12:10:06 ais523, anyway, the concept of static concurrency seems a bit ill-defined if you can just emulate non-static concurrency on top of it. 12:10:19 Vorpal: it's ill-defined if the rest of your system is also ill-defined 12:10:42 if you have a sufficiently well-defined model of what you can and can't do, it's quite easy to define static concurrency too 12:10:46 elliott: i want all that too! let me know when those are invented. 12:10:49 `quote removing concurrency 12:10:51 236) gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult 12:10:59 ais523, well okay, is having full blown semaphores and message queues ill-defined? 12:11:35 Vorpal: if you even have to ask the question, rather than having an answer ready to hand, it means that your system as a whole is ill-defined 12:11:53 like, does this system have higher-order functions? does it have closures? 12:12:05 in particular, can we send a closure through a message queue and get some sort of useful result? 12:12:22 (these problems are nontrivial, e.g. compare "can I send a filehandle over a network connection?") 12:12:35 (in most programming languages, the answer to that is "no"; in CLC-INTERCAL, it's "yes") 12:12:37 In unix you kind of can 12:12:42 For unix sockets 12:12:47 on the same computer 12:12:55 Erlang allows that fully across all nodes of course 12:13:12 ais523, you wouldn't need to send closures though, as you said above yourself, bytecode. 12:13:42 Vorpal: well, now you reach the question of "is this language capable of decompiling arbitrary functions that are passed in?" 12:13:58 again, in some languages (e.g. Java), the answer is "yes", but it's typically "no" 12:14:11 Right 12:15:53 ais523, anyway, you could even in C just implement an interpreter for your own byte code. Or you might not even need that. Something like an enum defining predefined tasks and some arguments to it could be enough to implement a limited number of tasks if that is all you need. 12:16:14 shachaf: also they only have 8 gigs of RAM :'( 12:16:37 elliott: Which one, the X1? 12:16:44 yeah 12:16:52 Yes. 12:17:06 But back in the day you couldn't even get i7+8GB at once. You had to choose 4GB or i5. 12:17:17 nice 12:17:26 Dark old days when kmc was looking at it. 12:17:35 "back in the day" "4 GB" 12:17:40 exactly 12:17:54 I never really used computers in the "640KB is enough for everyone" era 12:18:08 elliott: imo what's not to like about that clevo thing, 4-core haswell cpu, 1920×1080, <2kg, supports 16GB ram, no nvidia optimus 12:18:21 but I did use them in the era when 640KiB was the base memory and you needed to use unusual APIs to access the other 2MiB, with many programs stuck in the bottom 640 12:18:26 ~$1000 12:18:28 which one is the clevo again 12:18:29 except i'm not sure if it's actually good. this is where you come in 12:18:42 the one system76.com is selling among other places 12:18:49 elliott, if you want a powerhouse computer, the business Dells laptops are quite good. Not very portable, and pretty bad battery life. Matte screen and trackpoint though. 12:19:45 Vorpal: not really what I'm looking for, I want the laptop part more for the portability indoors than for it being a desktop you can lug around elsewhere 12:19:52 shachaf: rightb ut I can't find a clevo on system76.com 12:19:52 Hey, I have a Clevo-based laptop. 12:19:56 ais523, I used my dads Mac back then. I never had to deal with that weirdness 12:20:12 elliott: https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/galu1 hth 12:20:19 elliott, yeah I think it was months since I took out my work laptop of the docking station XD 12:20:19 It's from the 2011s, though; and big-and-heavy. 12:20:28 Vorpal: well by then, packagers had got used to the weirdness 12:20:33 elliott: clevo is the manufacturer's name hth 12:20:36 and gave simple instructions about what to put in config.sys 12:20:56 ais523, but wouldn't it possibly break between different programs you wanted to run? 12:21:05 wonder if the touchpad is any good 12:21:39 Vorpal: not really, by that stage it was mostly a case of increasing minimum settings 12:21:48 if you set the settings too high for a program, it'd still run just waste memory 12:22:01 elliott: see, that's the kind of question i need you for answering 12:22:06 ais523, waste memory that could have been used for what? 12:22:06 and that was OK because the programs that could make do with lower settings normally were written for older computers anyway which had less memory 12:22:13 heap/stack 12:22:21 putting the settings up higher meant the kernel had to use them 12:22:27 Hm 12:22:29 err, the kernel had to use more memory 12:22:32 leaving less for userspace 12:22:47 ais523, didn't some DOS programs put the computer in a 32-bit mode while running? 12:22:59 http://www.avadirect.com/gaming-laptop-configurator.asp?PRID=19611 <- I have this thing | it is so big. 12:23:08 shachaf: are there any system76 display models in stores anywhere 12:23:15 elliott: I doubt it? 12:23:23 I mean, maybe. Who knows. 12:23:36 Vorpal: there were "DOS extenders" that put the system into protected mode, then turned it back into realmode whenever something tried to make a system call, so that DOS would work correctly 12:23:38 fizzie, 17" heh, yeah those are big 12:23:40 how lenient is their return policy 12:23:47 and which handled some 32-bit system calls themselves 12:23:50 heh 12:23:56 NetHack for DOS works that way, for instance 12:24:07 DOOM works that way. 12:24:07 halp how do i frink 12:24:16 elliott: Here's Clevo's own web page on what I'm told is the same thing: http://www.clevo.com.tw/en/products/prodinfo.asp?productid=472 12:24:25 (I think. At least a lot of games come with DOS4GW.) 12:24:27 fizzie: I had to mess around with DOS extenders for making the NetHack TAS 12:24:41 including fixing the emulator so that it could handle at least one of htem 12:24:56 does the X1 have haswell 12:25:10 no 12:25:25 almost no one has haswell so far 12:25:33 what is new in haswell? Even stupider instruction names? 12:25:49 i hear you should wait until september or so if you want reasonable haswell options 12:25:55 Aren't there some Apples with Haswells? 12:26:00 the macbook airs have haswell 12:26:07 Yes. 12:26:12 unfortunately the pros don't, I was hoping to see what the retina would be like with haswell 12:26:21 since that could be a pretty compelling option for me 12:26:31 wow this system76 clevo is cheap 12:26:47 elliott "the x1 carbon is p. expensive" elliott 12:26:57 Vorpal: Are you saying VPUNPCKHQDQ is a stupid name! 12:27:09 fizzie, yes! 12:27:12 it only has 2.0 ghz so it's going to feel very slow no matter how fast it is :'( 12:27:21 btw, what does that one stand for? 12:27:34 help, which kind of SSD is the best 12:27:44 the most expensive one hth 12:27:52 elliott, I like the Intel 520 SSD at work. 250 GB 12:28:08 Pretty expensive IIRC 12:28:23 Vorpal: vex parallel unpack something something hth 12:28:31 Ah 12:28:56 fizzie, does sandy bridge have that one? I want to test it out 12:28:56 16 gigabytes of RAM and 256 gigabyte SSD and 1 TB HD for $1432...... that's pretty good 12:29:02 *and haswell 12:29:05 *and 1080p 12:29:07 fizzie, to see if it is the right choice for me 12:29:09 *and IPS 12:29:13 *more things 12:29:14 Vorpal: V for "vector" (probably), P possibly as a prefix for "packed", then UNPCK for unpack, and HQDQ for "High Quadwords to Double-Quadword". 12:29:26 Vorpal: And no, it was an AVX2 instruction. 12:29:37 Ah 12:29:38 fizzie: Doesn't V stand for "three-operand"? 12:29:40 Vorpal: You probably do have the plain PUNPCKHQDQ though. 12:29:46 heh 12:29:59 shachaf: Oh, sure, "thVree-operand", of course. 12:30:13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEX_prefix 12:30:15 elliott, both SSD and HDD? Must be a pretty heavy laptop 12:30:15 Something like that. 12:30:46 shachaf: I still guesstimate that the 'V' in the name originally derives from the word vector. 12:30:50 fizzie: Anyway if PFOO exists in SSE and you have plain old AVX isn't that enough to be able to use VPFOO with SSE registers? 12:30:55 Vorpal: 1.72 kg by default apparently 12:30:59 Vorpal: default = HD and no SSD 12:31:16 doubt the SSD is heavy enough to make the total not light 12:31:18 Not too bad 12:31:31 shachaf: Only the floating-point stuff is in plain old AVX, I think. 12:31:40 shachaf: AVX2 extends to integer datatypes. 12:32:09 my current laptop is like uh 12:32:12 fizzie: Yes, but if you just need SSE instructions, i.e. on xmm registers, I think you can use the VEX prefix. 12:32:13 1.4 kg or something 12:32:18 so I bet this one would feel super heavy :( 12:33:16 elliott, I think mine is closer to 2.5 kg or something 12:33:45 my current laptop: ~3kg? 12:33:46 shachaf: Look, all I know is that VPUNPCKHQDQ is in http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2011/06/13/haswell-new-instruction-descriptions-now-available 12:34:28 fizzie: Maybe they mean that it works on YMM registers now? 12:34:42 shachaf: what is your current laptop 12:34:46 dell xps 15 12:34:49 l502x 12:35:19 i hope the blurriness of the screen in https://c12278716.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/galu1-e791e840dd9d7623d0228ca15867ae74.jpg is just a bad photo 12:35:35 oh it's not even blurry there 12:35:40 it's just downsized on the web page so it looks blurry? 12:37:22 fizzie: Anyway I could've used AVX2 back when I was writing some SSE code. :-( 12:37:51 "Haswell, will travel." 12:38:40 elliott: anyway tell me if you find a better computer than that one along the relevant axes 12:42:39 ais523: Are there any INTERCAL implementations that use the Haswell PDEP/PEXT instructions for select/mingle? 12:45:30 fizzie: not as far as I know 12:45:56 perhaps it could be added as an alternative in C-INTERCAL's libick 12:45:58 So behind-the-times. 12:46:10 it /would/ be the sort of thing I'd like doing, but I wouldn't be able to test it 12:46:32 do you need someone to donate you a haswell computer 12:46:34 for the good of intercal 12:46:54 Maybe a kickstarter. 12:46:58 elliott: if they just donate me a patch, and convincingly claim it works 12:47:11 ais523: there are lazy people with money 12:48:50 how many of them care about haswell-accelerated INTERCAL, though? 12:49:15 elliott, seems haswell is less energy efficient than ivy bridge hm 12:49:22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_(microarchitecture)#Performance 12:49:31 And harder to overclock 12:49:32 -!- johnny57 has left. 12:50:07 Vorpal: isn't it meant to be much more energy efficient 12:50:29 It is. 12:50:36 Well I don't know, I just pointed you to the source I saw it on. It could be that it is more energy efficient for the given performance 12:51:18 not like anyone wants to overclock a laptop anyway 12:51:28 Yay wikipedia is quoting two sources that are both the same text??? 12:51:35 The Haswell architecture is specifically designed[5] to optimize the power savings and performance benefits from the move to FinFET transistors on the improved 22 nm process node.[6] 12:52:21 Vorpal: probably an attempt by one of them to drive traffic to their site 12:52:22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haswell_Chip.jpg what causes the repeated patterns on chips like these 12:52:28 like I assume they're a bunch of duplicates of the same thing? 12:52:28 ais523, probably 12:52:49 elliott, isn't that a waffer with multiple CPUs? 12:52:51 elliott: most commonly it's RAM (e.g. L2 cache) 12:52:59 if it's a large repeating area 12:53:04 Vorpal: oh maybe 12:53:15 unfortunately we will never know because ais523 won't click it :P 12:53:17 elliott, but inside each CPU there are repeating patterns as well yes 12:53:32 although that particular image may just be multiple chips 12:53:37 I have a hard time believing the entire CPU is much smaller than a pin 12:53:42 elliott, well it says waffer in the description below 12:54:16 elliott: basically chips have to be that small, a single impurity makes the entire chip unusable 12:54:18 elliott, I would guess the CPU is about as bit as the pin, that is, the largest scale repeated structure is one CPU each. 12:54:23 so they need to make them small to fit between impurities on the wafer 12:54:28 big* 12:55:00 Vorpal: well it would be awfully thin if so 12:55:12 ais523, isn't that the point of three core CPUs? One of the cores had an impurity in it? 12:55:23 elliott, not sure that is unlikely though 12:55:38 Haswell GT2's die size is listed as 177 square millimetres; that's a 13 mm x 13 mm square, if square. 12:55:44 Vorpal: yeah 12:55:50 they're failed attempts to make quad core CPUs 12:56:09 ais523, presumably some of the dual core CPUs are quad cores with two failed cores as well? 12:56:23 AMD still does 6-core CPUs right? what's up with that? 12:56:27 Vorpal: that's less likely, that'd be rare enough that it wouldn't be worth their time to separate them out and market them 12:56:28 8-core CPUs where two failed?? 12:56:30 they'd probably be thrown away 12:56:34 elliott: they might just be made as 6 12:56:45 Hm 12:56:55 I guess you don't really get 8 cores on a single CPU much 12:58:02 elliott, anyway yeah, I suspect within each CPU, there is L2 cache in one area of the chip and then 4 cores, then some shared stuff at the top. That would fit with other (annotated) images I have seen of dies. 12:58:24 fair enough 12:58:54 Vorpal: The GPU is a big block there too, probably. 12:59:00 elliott, the bottom part might be cache, then each of the 4 repeated bits could be a core, then at the "top" there is some common bus, power supply, clocks or similar. That is a rough guess. 12:59:08 fizzie, yeah I suggested that above. 12:59:23 Vorpal: The mostly dark-red one, I think, based on the shapes of http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2234017 12:59:48 elliott, anyway most of a physical CPU's area is just to allow for all the pins at a scale where the pins won't break if you touch them. 13:00:10 fizzie, oh okay, so reverse of what I was thinking then 13:00:56 wait, you said GPU not CPU sorry 13:01:01 the words, they look similar 13:02:24 -!- Koen_ has joined. 13:04:05 elliott, that is one reason why the companies try to put more stuff on the CPU (such as GPUs), less pins to go to external locations. (The other reason I can think of is less latency) 13:04:26 also less size presumably 13:04:35 Well that is an effect of less external pins 13:04:45 right 13:05:42 SOCs (System-On-a-Chip), such as found in phones, takes that even further, often integrating sound, wifi, bluetooth, DSPs and so on as well. 13:06:35 The PC is in a bit of a weird spot there, since adding the GPU onto the chip doesn't actually reduce number of pins currently. You still need that PCI express bus anyway. 13:06:53 So latency would be the primary reason there I assume 13:07:22 And reduced costs, not having to make separate integrated GPU chipsets (at least for Intel) 13:09:51 ais523, What is the next step after 22nm? 13:10:15 Also why did they go for 22 nm rather than 21 or 23? Or maybe 22.5? 13:12:00 14 nm is the next one. 13:12:28 Hm 13:12:59 Then 10, 7 and 5, but that's a bit speculative? 13:13:02 Vorpal: I don't really care, I just write compilers that design chips, I don't actually make them 13:13:33 And still they only recently started taking advantage of 3D structures I believe? Previously it was mostly layered 2D right? 13:14:21 Wouldn't it be more efficient to design a cubic CPU? That would make the signal paths shorter it seems to me? A bit more complicated cooling though I guess 13:15:10 A "bit" more complicated to manufacture using current lithography techniques, most likely. 13:15:24 hm true 13:15:59 fizzie, how do you even do more than one layer currently? 13:16:28 Deposit a new layer of silicon on top? 13:17:15 I don't know; another question along the same lines (where the answer is most likely "by being clever") is "how do they draw 20nm lines using light with wavelengths in the hundreds of nm?" 13:17:37 They use electron beams nowdays iirc? 13:18:17 Well, it *exists*; I don't know what e.g. Intel uses at the moment. 13:18:25 well even the really low tech photolithography that schoolchildren use to make PCBs uses ultraviolet 13:18:26 Right 13:18:36 that cuts your nanometres down a bit 13:18:38 "Intel has already outlined a path to use 193 nm immersion lithography down to 11 nm node" that's still light. 13:18:47 Hm 13:19:11 ("Immersion lithography is a photolithography resolution enhancement technique for manufacturing integrated circuits (ICs) that replaces the usual air gap between the final lens and the wafer surface with a liquid medium that has a refractive index greater than one. The resolution is increased by a factor equal to the refractive index of the liquid.") 13:19:15 fizzie, I know they use double masking. Where they first use one mask then switch to another offset mask. 13:20:52 "Extreme ultraviolet lithography" has the greatest name. 13:20:54 fizzie, hm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dimensional_integrated_circuit 13:21:08 Seems like it is in the works 13:21:34 Well, they have to do something. 13:22:10 More cores? More optimised instructions? There are lots of way to continue increasing performance in the future 13:22:46 Maybe an FPGA section of the chip that could be optimised for each application 13:22:50 That would be cool 13:24:16 Apparently Intel has done some forays to the EUL direction. 13:24:26 EUL? 13:24:38 oh, Extreme ultraviolet lithography? 13:25:08 Isn't that into xrays already? 13:25:25 "Extreme ultraviolet lithography (also known as EUV or EUVL) is a next-generation lithography technology using an extreme ultraviolet (EUV) wavelength, currently expected to be 13.5 nm." 13:25:45 Apparently it's still ultraviolet down to 10 nm. 13:25:50 Huh 13:25:54 Then x-rays from 10 to 0.1. 13:26:30 "The Intel Lithography Roadmap" requires a login. I wonder if I have an Intel account. 13:26:39 And gamma below that? 13:27:06 why would a lithography roadmap require a login? 13:27:50 ais523: http://noggin.intel.com/content/the-intel-lithography-roadmap -> click link -> "To access this additional content, you must first log in. If you haven't yet registered, please sign up. It's quick, it's free, it's easy!" 13:27:59 I guess that's not an answer to the "why". 13:28:10 yeah, that's merely a statement that the roadmap requires a login 13:28:21 "Lithography technologies, such as 193nm, 157nm, and EUV lithography, which have benefited from Intel investment, have gained industry acceptance, while competing technologies, such as x-ray lithography, are no longer being pursued." 13:28:26 I like the way they put it. 13:28:40 fizzie: how good is the clevo's touchpad :P 13:28:46 elliott: I think it's p. standard. 13:29:36 standard is bad 13:29:44 ive never met a touchpad i didnt dislike..... 13:30:45 Same, go for trackpoints. 13:31:13 fizzie: that's a pretty evasive way to praise themeselves 13:31:16 *themselves 13:31:43 like, I'd be surprised if there were any ASIC manufacturing technologies that Intel hadn't put at least a bit of money into determining how well they worked 13:34:39 I think it sounds more like a threat. "Nice lithography technology you've got here. Would be shame if something happened to it, and it was no longer pursued." 13:35:09 Except they're the ones giving the money instead of getting it. 13:36:14 Is there actually any sharp difference between 11 nm UV and 10 nm x-ray? 13:36:27 It sounds more like an arbitrary line 13:36:44 There's a one nanometer difference hth 13:36:50 "That's pretty sharp." 13:37:02 XD 13:37:04 I think most of the distinctions between different sorts of light are pretty arbitrary 13:37:13 even visible, because not everyone's eyes are identical 13:41:59 "Note that there are no precisely defined boundaries between the bands of the electromagnetic spectrum; rather they fade into each other like the bands in a rainbow (which is the sub-spectrum of visible light)." Some Wikipedia editor's being very poetic there. 13:42:07 (I was looking for standard definitions.) 13:43:59 ITU apparently has standard names, numbers and frequency boundaries for things that can be called radio, from EHF to ELF, but don't extend outside those bounds. 13:48:06 Oh, the low-frequency end only starts from ULF, officially. (It goes ULF, VLF, LF, MF, HF, VHF, UHF, SHF and EHF.) 13:48:45 Wait, no; there is ELF, but it's four bands wide, and in a separate table; and SLF is missing. Way to be logical, guys. 13:49:08 I thought ELF was an executable format 13:50:26 Ultra-Linkable Format, Very Linkable Format, Linkable Format, ... 13:50:47 The Super-Linkable format is missing. 13:51:00 Fortunately, the Extremely Linkable Format is objectively better. 13:51:01 High Frequency, Very High Frequency, Unusually High Frequency, Surprisingly High Frequency, Excessively High Frequency 13:52:47 ion: Apparently some authors[1] use THF for "Tremendously High Frequency". 13:52:56 Your names fit that pretty well. 13:53:10 [1] Tanenbaum, Andrew (2002). Computer Networks. page 101: Prentice Hall. p. 912. ISBN 978-0-13-066102-9. 13:54:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:55:23 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:58:47 -!- jsvine has joined. 14:03:28 Someone should figure out a way to take photos in radio wavelengths. I want to look what it looks like when I stand in front of a wifi router. 14:05:32 Vorpal: I imagine it'd look much the same as taking a photo of a lightbulb 14:06:03 routers don't send signals that turn corners for the same reason that lasers don't shoot out light sideways in real life, like they do in films 14:06:11 Hm, surely I wouldn't be completely invisible? 14:06:25 oh, I thought you were taking a photo of it 14:06:33 rather than someone taking a photo of you next to it 14:06:38 yeah, you'd probably be at least slightly visible 14:06:40 ais523, me standing in between camera and the router 14:06:44 although human bodies don't block radio waves very well 14:06:48 Hm 14:07:03 (this is part of the reason radio is used for communication) 14:07:31 Most of the world would be transparent. That would be pretty cool I think 14:07:51 Well not fully transparent 14:07:56 But partly at least 14:08:31 hmm, I imagine the main technical obstacle to building a camera like that is that it would have to be tens of metres across, or perhaps more depending on the wavelength 14:11:22 Hm, reading up on MIMO (curse you wikipedia, I started out reading about lithography and ended up at MIMO...). That is pretty clever. 14:15:15 If antennas length need to match the wavelength, why does normal FM radio work? You can just turn a dial or press a few buttons, and it doesn't extend or retract the antenna afaik. 14:19:22 Vorpal: it doesn't need to match exactly; it works better the closer the match is 14:19:26 Ah 14:19:33 but it'll still work at non-100% efficiency if the match isn't perfect 14:19:41 you get some of the signal reflecting rather than being transmitted 14:30:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:30:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:34:06 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 14:45:31 @tell oerjan < oerjan> was that command ever intended to have a useful purpose? <-- no 14:45:32 Consider it noted. 14:54:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:55:46 `olist (899) 14:55:48 olist (899): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly 14:55:57 Oh, I bet oerjan joined to tell me. 14:56:06 lambdabot: boo 14:56:15 shachaf: O KAY 14:56:27 hmm i bet 900 will be big and important?? 14:56:39 ooo! 14:56:58 um were previous round numbers important? 14:57:22 maybe 14:57:27 some of them? 14:57:35 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html looks kind of important i guess 14:58:16 nice timing xykon 14:58:18 maybe 400 is important 14:58:19 well, given what happened in 898 14:58:21 500? i don't know 14:58:23 it's probably the end of the story arc 14:58:43 Oh, do you read `olist? 14:58:47 Do you want to be added to the list? 14:59:00 shachaf: nah, I just check manually from time to time 14:59:10 I have no particular reason to have up-to-the-minute updates 14:59:14 given that it updates kind-of slowly anyway 14:59:19 also that I'm often not in the channel 14:59:25 We've noticed. 14:59:40 wait, ais523 is here! 14:59:46 and I'm often offline even when I'm not in the channel 15:00:01 You were gone for so long that the channel sprouted some new ops. 15:00:46 right 15:01:08 I'm probably going to leave again tbf, except perhaps when something new happens that I care about talking about 15:02:07 Well, it's nice having you here, when you're here. 15:02:59 (So you should stay.) 15:27:35 Re "photos in radio wavelengths", there's a couple of cameras that take "photos" of sound -- http://phys.org/news/2013-05-world-handheld-camera-ready.html and the like. 15:30:55 if an NFS mount gets so broken that you cannot even kill -9 processes trying to access it, must a linux machine then be rebooted? 15:31:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:31:21 You should fix the NFS server and hope it recovers hth 15:31:47 well the thing is the _server_ is fine, it's the client which has problems :P 15:33:02 also it's not actually me who is administrating this, i'm just wondering if i can expect to get kicked off when they fix it. 15:34:15 by the server is fine i mean that i can access my mail inbox fine from a third machine. 15:36:23 That doesn't really guaratee the health of the NFS service operating on it, though. (I think in most cases rebootless fixes should be possible.) 15:36:45 ok 15:37:15 (the third machine also accesses via NFS, of course) 15:37:59 (Or "non-fixes" of the kind of "let the process stay dead, lazy-unmount the broken NFS mount, and wait for the next scheduled reboot for a more permanent solution".) 15:38:39 hm 15:39:21 as long as they can remount a second time... 15:39:39 otherwise no one can access mail from this machine. 15:43:15 A lazy umount just removes the mount from the filesystem tree; it shouldn't be a problem mounting something working in its place, unless of course the NFS client code makes that a problem. 15:44:17 okay 15:45:25 The NFS hangups I've seen at work lately have ended at I/O errors in the process (in a reasonable time; not days) -- possibly corresponding to people doing something to the server. But I don't admin those either. 15:48:08 i suppose there may not be any admins active at the moment. yesterday there was a different but probably related problem and i quickly got an email back. 15:48:43 elliott: yes, the X1 Carbon is nice, I can talk about its strengths and weaknesses if you like 15:51:10 kmc: sounds good! I am really tired but if you have a monologue I will read it and I might have more questions tomorrow 15:58:15 -!- conehead has joined. 16:00:52 ais523: i haven't read all the logs yet, but it looks to me like your concurrency primitive should be trivial to implement in haskell 16:01:22 oerjan: I'd like to see the impl; also I don't know how concurrency works in Haskell, which is part of the reason I wouldn't try to work it out myself 16:03:28 oh except for one thing, it definitely cannot be pure, you'd want to allocate an MVar to communicate between invocations. 16:04:18 kmc: alt. we can do it tomorrow 16:07:42 tomorrow sounds good 16:07:44 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16:17:46 Urgh, lame doesn't take flac as input. Now what? (No I can't use ogg here, the device I need to put this on only supports mp3) 16:18:34 Insert lame pun here 16:19:16 Very nice 16:20:07 Vorpal: flac --decode --stdout foo.flac | lame --preset standard /dev/stdin ... or whatever 16:20:10 maybe you need a temp file 16:20:34 What does flac --decode output? PCM? 16:20:48 a .wav file I think 16:20:53 Right 16:21:43 ffmpeg -i foo.flac -o foo.mp3 or whatever 16:22:33 elliott, lame --help says - will work for stdin so that should be good 16:22:44 Deewiant, Is that better than lame? 16:24:31 for i in *.flac; do flac --decode --stdout "$i" | lame --preset extreme - "${i/.flac/}.mp3"; done <-- this should work right? Not sure about that /.flac/ syntax, but I think it is correct? 16:24:46 yeah it seems correct 16:25:12 except this takes ages, how to parallelize? I usually use xargs -P 16:25:33 there's that GNU parallel thing. 16:25:50 btw, --preset extreme is overkill. 16:25:53 Hm, yeah doing this with xargs would be complicated, maybe through a sh call 16:25:56 elliott, oh? 16:26:06 elliott, anything between standard and extreme? 16:26:13 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:26:40 Deewiant: But ffmpeg is deprecated!1 16:26:54 uh, I don't think so. but I really doubt standard fails to be transparent on non-pathological examples without equally pathological listening conditions 16:26:55 fizzie, what? 16:27:18 Vorpal: The command-line tool, I mean; tou're supposed to use "avconv" these days. 16:27:30 it's like 190 kbps and LAME is p. good at encoding 16:27:45 fizzie: did the original ffmpeg project give up or is it still a hostile fork situation? 16:27:52 fizzie, huh 16:28:01 See: http://sprunge.us/TbBh 16:28:19 And I think avconv's part of the official ffmpeg now, or something. I haven't really been following. 16:28:49 It's not 16:29:24 I guess it's a "libav" thing, mhmm. 16:29:28 ffmpeg 0.10's changelog from 2012 says " 16:29:29 all features from avconv merged into ffmpeg" 16:29:34 Don't know what that means 16:30:18 I don't know either. 16:31:40 Okay, I guess you shouldn't be using avconv if your libavcodec and friends comes from FFmpeg and not libav. 16:31:47 I'm glad it's not confusing or anything. 16:33:50 http://blog.pkh.me/p/13-the-ffmpeg-libav-situation.html 16:34:40 elliott: so the main good things are, it's thin, light, and has a screen with a not embarassingly low resolution 16:34:57 (1600x900 while the other ultraportable thinkpads are 1366x768) 16:35:33 battery life is fine (I get about 5 hours in a moderately tuned Linux system) but the battery charges really quickly, which is nice 16:35:56 like it will charge from 20% to 80% in 30 min or so 16:35:58 (includes stuff about the deprecation warning) 16:36:04 "-- a FFmpeg/Libav war child --" 16:36:12 A tragedy. I shed a tear. 16:36:16 I hear there are Ivy Bridge power management improvements in Linux 3.10 and I should try that 16:36:44 also it suspends and resumes from RAM *really* fast 16:36:50 like resume takes 1 second before the machine is completely usable again 16:37:04 there's no reason why suspend to RAM should be slow, but it's always been a bit slower on other thinkpads i've owned 16:38:08 $ ffmpeg 16:38:08 WARNING: gnome-keyring:: couldn't connect to: /home/arvid/.cache/keyring-cU64W7/pkcs11: No such file or directory 16:38:12 Why? WHY!? 16:38:21 Why is ffmpeg doing that?! 16:38:52 hahaha 16:39:40 kmc: do you have any idea if it might be getting Haswell any time soon 16:39:55 no clue 16:40:03 i'm no expert on lenovo kremlinology 16:40:12 I couldn't even get a straight answer as to when the i7/8GB model would be available 16:40:34 kmc, is it not possible to add a few extra RAM modules yourself? 16:40:41 nope 16:40:44 What?! 16:40:45 kmc: I think you can get i7 + 8GB now 16:40:45 it's an "ultrabook", RAM is soldered on 16:40:47 shachaf told me tales 16:40:49 ouch 16:40:58 kmc, yet another reason to go for normal laptops 16:41:13 itt Vorpal and I have different utility functions 16:41:15 have to admit I fail to see the reasoning here 16:41:16 elliott: yeah, also there's a touch version now 16:41:21 kmc, right. 16:41:35 so yeah, you can't upgrade the RAM 16:41:40 "you can't get 8 gigs of RAM so you should get a machine that is worse at doing what it's for in every respect other than it happens to have 8 gigs of RAM" 16:41:48 except I have 8 gigs of RAM!! 16:41:52 but I wish I had 16 :( 16:41:55 you maybe can't remove the SSD either; I need to try that 16:42:07 in the past the ability to quickly remove the hdd from thinkpads has been very useful in disaster type situations 16:42:22 I've heard the SSD is a mSATA card but I've also heard otherwise 16:42:24 elliott, I like having the ability to extend the hardware easily as my needs changes. 16:42:54 kmc: yes my main misgivings look like (a) no quad core (solved by haswell??) (b) intel graphics (made less bad by haswell??) (c) 8 gigs of ram limit 16:43:02 seems reasonable 16:43:02 (d) the screen could do with being even higher-resolution...... :( 16:43:13 yeah there will probably be a 'retina' version someday 16:43:21 you could get a chromebook pixel instead ;P 16:43:27 or I think samsung has a high dpi laptop too now 16:43:30 whatevs 16:43:40 kmc, on my thinkpad I only need to remove a single screw to change the HDD. I need to remove 4 to reach the RAM modules. 16:43:44 I am also looking at https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/galu1 because of shachaf 16:43:53 Vorpal: yes I have owned thinkpads before as well 16:44:02 kmc, Anyway should my ram break I can replace it. Couldn't if it was soldered on. 16:44:07 I have 32 :3 16:44:10 have you ever had RAM break 16:44:17 for which my main misgiving is whether the touchpad is any good 16:44:21 Fiora: I interpreted that as "I have 32 Thinkpads". 16:44:30 (and whether iris pro is actually decent enough) 16:44:32 kmc, Not for ages. (Early 2000s iirc) 16:44:34 other issues: Linux hardware support isn't *quite* there yet. it's mostly fine, but occasionally sound freaks out, this can usually be fixed by removing and reinstalling the kernel module, but not always 16:44:46 I've occasionally had similar issues with wireless too 16:45:00 neither is frequent enough to really be annoying 16:45:22 I wonder if I can keep listing drawbacks of this machine without Vorpal assuming that I'm a dumbass who didn't know these things when I bought it 16:45:23 ... gigabytes XD 16:45:38 and listing irrelevant facts at me 16:45:39 Fiora: how much have you actually managed to use 16:45:44 kmc, I'm not assuming you are a dumbass :P 16:45:44 I mean ignoring disk caches and stuff 16:46:14 And finding out linux hw support in advance tends to be rather hit or miss I found. 16:46:34 kmc: don't forget to mention the keyboard 16:46:36 elliott: also it takes a different power adapter plug than other thinkpads :( (the standard round barrel is too thick for the case) 16:46:52 well I don't have any thinkpads and never have so that's not really a concern at least :P 16:46:54 ok 16:47:00 elliott: um... I think I probably use like up to 2 or 3 GB for a game? plus a few gigs for other things so probably like 8-10 16:47:02 I had quite an investment in old-style power adapters 16:47:10 the disk cache is nice though! albeit not quite as useful with an SSD 16:47:28 oh right! when I was playing around with ECM factoring I got to use 23 GB and actually ran out? xD 16:47:38 kmc: Do you do any programming? 16:47:42 also there's no onboard Ethernet; it ships with a USB Ethernet adapter that is only supported by recent-ish Linux (see http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/12/hex-editing-linux-kernel-modules-to.html) 16:47:52 I could probably use 32 GB just by compiling enough Haskell packages in parallel I guess 16:47:56 Any actual programming I mean 16:47:58 FreeFull: what, do you mean "do i do any work instead of hanging out on IRC all day" 16:48:05 kmc: yes =P 16:48:08 =P 16:48:15 I have a meeting in 10 min 16:48:23 but yes I did write code yesterday 16:48:28 "how is your IRC performance" 16:48:29 Incidentally, do you have to give Kensington® some money if you put a Kensington® hole® in your thing? 16:48:35 "have you sold any ThinkPads lately" 16:48:39 "are they believing your Mozilla cover story" 16:48:49 kmc: You could take a look at the driver code and fix it once and for all 16:48:50 elliott: um... I think I probably use like up to 2 or 3 GB for a game? plus a few gigs for other things so probably like 8-10 <-- I mainly found that I use my 16 GB of RAM for running hundreds of chrome tabs. 16:49:01 elliott: also the only video port is Mini DisplayPort; if you want VGA or DVI or HDMI you need an adapter as well, and that one is not included 16:49:08 Also the occasional game, minecraft with mods especially. 16:49:27 And of course panorama stitching, but that is not a very common activity. 16:49:35 I mainly use the 16 gigs at work to hold large matrices. 16:49:44 Vorpal: I have hundreds of tabs open regularly in Firefox, and it doesn't take anywhere near that much RAM 16:49:46 kmc: no biggie 16:49:53 FreeFull: oh also my code was building, that's my other excuse 16:49:59 Just Gaussian random data if I can't figure out what else to put there! (Not really.) 16:50:04 kmc: have you added any code yet 16:50:08 yes 16:50:08 FreeFull, well of course chrome doesn't take it all. Usually about 1 GB total as far as I can tell. 16:50:13 fizzie: I hope your matrix multiplication algorithm has good cache locality 16:50:16 FreeFull, but it gives room for still doing other stuff 16:50:44 elliott: https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/9f6de7e5e30ff84bbe04d22c04a22fa33e4aa8e7 https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/cfffd0542404b60923f3f524f5144693d9b89f00 v. important changes 16:50:47 FreeFull: It's MATLAB's matrix multiplication algorithm, I'm sure it has all the good things and none of the bad things; I mean, MATLAB. It's got MAT right in the name. 16:50:53 The only benefit I would have from 16GB would be more filesystem cache 16:51:14 it's amazing how quickly n+1 browser tabs can eat up 8 GB 16:51:15 I wonder what you need matrices that big for 16:51:31 kmc: those both look more like removing code to me 16:51:31 Rodina MAT 16:51:36 elliott: yes isn't it great 16:51:40 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:51:42 I asked if you added any! 16:51:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:51:51 fizzie, is that the "brand" of the holes? 16:51:54 go write some hacks to handle awful CSS edge-cases 16:52:11 Vorpal: Officially it's a "Kensington Security Slot", I think. 16:52:11 fizzie, I never seen a Kensington lock, I only ever seen other brands that fit the same hole. 16:52:34 "Address pcwalton's comments" "Address pcwalton's nits" wow pcwalton, give em a break 16:52:46 I've only seen the holes. Well, I guess I've seen a couple of locks at stores and so on, don't know which brand. 16:53:05 fizzie, we have locks at work. 16:54:18 Some no-name brand lock I believe. Not that we need it. Just a general company laptop security policy. 16:54:49 FreeFull: Well, you know... so many things are en-squared. If you have a 30k-dimensional vectors and ask for something that wants to make a covariance matrix, that's 30000 x 30000 = 900 million 8-byte floats = 6.7 gigs right there. 16:56:21 Now I'm wondering where you need 30k-dimensional vectors 16:56:44 finns live in a 30k-dimensional universe 16:56:54 this is how fizzie plans his commute 16:57:03 Must be very confusing 16:58:01 fizzie: At least you don't have to calculate a 30k x 30k x 30k tensor, then you'd never have enough RAM =P 16:58:42 FreeFull: Activation vectors for a 30k-element dictionary of atoms hth 17:00:57 FreeFull: Also sometimes you have 30k 39-dimensional vectors and accidentally give it to the function transposed, because half the functions expect observations in column vectors and other half in row vectors. (The truth comes out.) 17:01:28 fizzie: Oh, you're doing a physics simulation? 17:01:38 Ok, that explains everything 17:01:44 fizzie: it's ok to admit finns live in a bizarre and disorienting world, incomprehensible to all outsiders. 17:01:47 I mean, we already know that 17:02:03 You know all those dimensions from string theory? Yeah, they've all curled up in Finland. 17:02:49 (Also I don't really do physics simulations, I just like to refer to audio frames as "observations".) 17:08:45 Wait, 30000 x 30000 matrices for audio? Just what are you doing? 17:20:14 As I mentioned, activations for a 30k element dictionary of "exemplars". 17:20:36 It's a source separation thingie based on a NMF decomposition. 17:30:39 -!- jsvine has joined. 17:32:26 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host). 17:32:27 -!- tswett has joined. 17:32:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:33:21 -!- conehead has joined. 17:34:13 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 17:42:56 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:03:05 hm. I went to bed at a reasonable time, but only properly woke up just now 18:03:26 odd 18:03:31 did you improperly wake up before that? 18:03:49 oddly enough elliott just went to sleep 18:04:17 kmc: yes 18:04:36 then I had increasingly weird REM half-sleeps 18:04:51 so I suppose it's not like I was getting actual rest out of that 18:11:44 Fiora: Have you installed a small spy camera in elliott's room? (Clearly the most likely conclusion.) 18:14:30 Occam's razor suggests that assuming it's small is superfluous 18:14:36 I was talking with him -_- 18:15:08 I think that's just a cover story. 18:15:51 he's a cutiepants okay I can't help it 18:19:01 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:20:11 -!- nooodl has joined. 18:26:56 tricked again by /bin/sh -> /bin/dash 18:32:10 static THROBBER: [char, ..8] = [ '⣾', '⣽', '⣻', '⢿', '⡿', '⣟', '⣯', '⣷' ]; 18:34:22 I didn't realize where those characters are from but it should have been obvious really 18:41:52 I bet blind people get totally confused when reading the output from that software. 18:43:39 I bet it looks fancy as anything, though. 18:43:50 there are fancy devices that do dynamic embossing, but that seems no harder to do with plain letters. 18:44:58 people who use Braille likely know ASCII better than any of us not from the punchcard era 18:45:00 Also, what *is* that from? Isn't Braille just three rows? 18:45:22 super cool extended braille isn't 18:46:09 Apparently so. 18:51:25 > text [chr $ ord '⣟' Data.Bits..&. ord '⣾'] 18:51:26 ⣞ 18:51:28 cute 18:52:19 the Debian installer has lots of support for braille ttys, also for speech synthesis of the menus 18:52:22 pretty cool 18:54:17 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:59:01 > text [chr $ ord '⣟' `xor` ord '⣾'] -- less cute 18:59:03 ! 18:59:17 They should've put that stuff right at the beginning of Unicode, for cuteness. 19:00:33 blind superiority 19:00:43 > text [chr $ ord '⠀' + (ord '⣟' `xor` ord '⣾')] -- magic space fix 19:00:44 ⠡ 19:03:00 Steam is just crawling today :/ 19:03:14 the backend... so unresponsive.... 19:03:16 -!- mnoqy has joined. 19:03:29 > text ['⠀'..'⣿'] 19:03:30 ⠀⠁⠂⠃⠄⠅⠆⠇⠈⠉⠊⠋⠌⠍⠎⠏⠐⠑⠒⠓⠔⠕⠖⠗⠘... 19:03:34 Awwww. 19:03:50 lambdabot: You could've done a little more than that. 19:03:51 :t text 19:03:52 String -> Doc 19:03:56 clearly we should use these as a text transport for binary data 19:04:03 > ['⠀'..'⣿'] 19:04:04 "\10240\10241\10242\10243\10244\10245\10246\10247\10248\10249\10250\10251\1... 19:04:08 Not much better. 19:04:12 8 bits each right? 19:04:14 (The multiline query version looked nice.) 19:04:22 are some combos verboten 19:04:33 btw today is free slurpee day at 7-Eleven 19:04:36 maybe only in the USA 19:04:50 AIUI, there's quite a few Braille variants, esp. concerning the 8-cell versions. 19:04:58 But Unicode has the whole set of symbols. 19:05:02 the reason: date +%m-%d 19:05:47 Never forget, 7/11. 19:06:30 There are no 7-Elevens in Finland. 19:07:02 (There are some in Denmark, Norway and Sweden, which I don't think is entirely fair.) 19:08:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:08:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:09:56 Ohh, the Steam Summer Sale. So that's why everyone's[weasel words][dubious - discuss] talking about Steam, and it's down. 19:10:30 * Gracenotes goes to Discussion:Fizzie 19:10:50 er, Talk:Fizzie. it's been a while. 19:10:55 That would be Tal... right 19:11:27 I'm not even mentioned at Talk:Bath bomb, and Talk:Bath fizzie is a redlink. :/ 19:11:49 [[ "Wave 4" was released in August 2005, and it included Bertie, Purkle, Spangle, Dilly, Skinker, and Fizzie. ]] 19:11:57 In good company, I'd say? 19:12:02 redirect talk pages are unloved 19:12:18 But "Bath fizzie" isn't a redirect. 19:12:30 or there was some mess with exchanging articles, redirects, and disambiguation pages, and the talk pages went along for the ride 19:12:38 It's a really kinda weird article instead, and completely different than the Bath bomb one. 19:12:57 I think perhaps written by a chemist, or something. 19:13:02 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 19:13:30 "-- designed to effervesce in personal bath water -- amorphous grains of homogeneous mixture -- solid boluses of homogeneous or inhomogeneous mixture -- ingredients must include one or more acid(s) and one or more water-soluble bicarbonate, sesquicarbonate, and/or carbonate -- other water-soluble, water-dispersible, and/or volatile ingredients --" 19:13:33 oh. slap a merge tag on it, or something. 19:13:50 What, me, edit Wikipedia? I'm not one of those guys. 19:14:00 I /used/ to be one of those guys 19:14:24 Did you know that: In principle a fizzie could release phosphoric anhydride gas, but the release of gas from phosphate salts is so slow that any phosphates present in either beverage or bath fizzies are for other purposes. 19:14:55 In practice, I only release phosphoric anhydride gas after very specific meals. 19:15:32 (There's also gratuitous use of bold.) 19:15:46 Is it you who releases it or intestinal bacteria? 19:15:54 Or, perhaps, both? 19:16:57 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 19:22:25 -!- mtve- has joined. 19:30:58 -!- TeruFSX has quit (*.net *.split). 19:31:01 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 19:31:01 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 19:31:01 -!- Fiora has quit (*.net *.split). 19:37:38 -!- Koen_ has joined. 19:39:09 -!- Koen__ has joined. 19:39:10 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:41:04 Oh god, a full screen installer with a blue gradient background. This is old! 19:41:12 Why did they ever do that btw? 19:41:26 -!- yiyus has joined. 19:41:26 -!- Fiora has joined. 19:43:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:44:57 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=322255 19:46:11 -!- tswett_ has joined. 19:47:53 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 19:48:51 -!- tswett_ has quit (Changing host). 19:48:51 -!- tswett_ has joined. 19:52:40 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:52:42 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:52:44 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:52:44 ion, heh 19:53:51 http://www.imdb.com/media/rm465020160/tt2724064?ref_=butt 19:58:18 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett. 20:11:52 ref_=what? 20:12:31 Okay, I wonder if all you wonderful people can help me with a problem I'm facing. 20:12:41 -!- variable has changed nick to function. 20:12:44 So I want to store a directed acyclic graph in a database. 20:13:21 Whenever I try to add a new edge to the graph, I first look up all paths that would create a cycle with that edge. 20:13:30 Meaning that I have a table containing all paths. 20:13:56 The table has three columns: "head", which is the first edge in the graph; "last", which is the last; and "tail", which is a reference to the tail of the path. 20:14:46 So the path table forms a tree. 20:16:01 Whenever I add a new edge, I need to add new paths containing that edge. But I can't figure out a good way to do that. 20:16:08 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 20:18:16 all paths? isn't that an exponential number? 20:18:31 Potentially. 20:18:43 eesh, that sounds painful 20:18:46 I guess the algorithm is reasonably straightforward, now that I think of it. 20:18:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:19:03 maybe it would be better to have some storage method that doesn't involve exponential space <.< 20:19:06 Start with a list of all relevant paths already in the database, then just recursively extend them backwards. 20:19:11 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan. 20:19:15 If performance gets to be an issue, I'll rethink stuff. 20:21:10 if anyone spoke to me in privmsg in about the last 2 hours, my nick has been a ghost 20:21:32 tswett: you look for paths that would create a cycle just to throw an error if you find one, or for some other reason? 20:21:44 if you just want to know "would this new edge form a cycle" then there are simpler data structures you can use 20:22:13 kmc: for some other reason. I need to do something with every edge in the cycle. 20:22:18 oh 20:22:29 And then delete one of the edges. 20:24:04 isn't hpaste.org alive any more? 20:24:42 might it not be a little less exponential to like, store the results of an all-pairs shortest path thing? 20:24:50 I think that's N^2 if you do it the dynamic programmy way 20:25:10 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia. 20:25:17 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host). 20:25:18 -!- quintopia has joined. 20:25:57 Fiora: well, adding a single edge could create exponentially many cycles, and I could potentially want to operate on all of them. 20:26:41 So whatever method I use needs to be able to tell me about all of those cycles. 20:27:14 yeah, but like, you can have exponentially many *paths* without having exponentially many cycles 20:27:46 ... huh ... 20:27:57 exponential in what 20:27:58 how do you distinguish different cycles? like what counts as two different cycles 20:28:32 made up of different vertices? 20:28:38 like if A->B, B->C, B->D, C->A, and D->A, is A->B->C->A and A->B->D->A two different cycles? 20:28:57 i would think so... 20:29:34 why wouldn't they be? 20:31:05 actually um. that's a question if you have a directed acyclic graph with V vertices and E edges, what's the maximum number of cycles adding an edge could create... 20:32:21 Fiora: it should be maximized by adding the final mossing edge to make a complete graph 20:32:25 *missing 20:32:53 (complete in both directions) 20:34:30 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:36:04 could such a graph have no cycles? 20:36:32 http://i.imgur.com/BbPmpQi.png here's an example I was thinking of... I guess this example does create an exponential number of cycles 20:36:33 oh wait 20:36:35 sorry 20:36:40 (red is the new edge) 20:36:57 as the number of vertex in the diamond gets larger, I think the number of cycles approaches 2^V? 20:37:06 since like, there's a branching factor of 2 20:37:34 2^(V/2) 20:37:55 maybe more 20:38:20 i know some people who were working on problems of graphs like this 20:39:45 the branching factor is 2 for the bottom half, but maybe no be on the top half. the actual number of paths is given by a nice recurrence relation i think 20:40:42 https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues/7048 20:40:52 I think the recurrence relation will involve a two times something n-1. 20:43:25 (Intuitively speaking, the paths after going left first + the paths after going right first, which look like they'd be smaller semi-diamond-like graphs.) 20:45:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Sleep soon). 20:45:10 hpaste is down :/ 20:45:14 need to link some amusing things from there 20:46:07 kmc: lpaste 20:46:32 kmc: http://lpaste.net/ 20:46:36 (#paths(n) = f(n,n) where f(n,m) = f(n-1,m) + f(m,n-1); add some base cases and solve; and the n in #paths(n) is sqrt(V). Or some-such.) 20:47:03 FreeFull: Does lpaste have hpaste pastes? 20:47:12 fizzie: I think so 20:47:17 FreeFull: Fancy. 20:47:49 http://lpaste.net/1 dated 2008 20:48:26 fizzie: I think it actually is hpaste 20:48:32 Just with a different name and domain 20:49:54 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:51:10 -!- nooodl has joined. 20:51:55 http://oeis.org/A000984 is the number of paths for a diamond with edge size (number of vertices) of n, I think. (I might have gotten that all wrong.) 20:53:11 The comments seem to bear it out. E.g. "Number of possible values of a 2*n bit binary number for which half the bits are on" aka "number of ways you can take left and right paths to end up at the top of the diamond". 20:54:28 ("The number of lattice paths from (0,0) to (n,n) using steps (1,0) and (0,1)" is even closer.) 20:57:24 isn't that exactly the same 20:57:45 They're comments for the same sequence, of course they're exactly the same. 20:58:08 I just meant "closer to Fiora's Diamond™". 20:59:00 i meant the number of lattice paths is the same as paths in the diamond 20:59:25 Well, yes. 20:59:39 I mean, it was supposed to be, too. 21:06:20 I guess you could just chop off the top half of the diamond and have everything connect to one top point 21:09:22 -!- Bike_ has joined. 21:09:58 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:14:55 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 21:16:05 That'd be, what, 2^n paths, with V = n*(1+n)/2? 21:18:08 (I guess +1 for the star at the top.) 21:20:30 kmc: hpaste is up, it's just the domain. 21:20:32 @where paste 21:20:32 http://paste.tryhaskell.org/new/haskell 21:21:04 Oh, lpaste is the same thing now. 21:22:36 what's Fiora's diamond 21:22:39 (tm) 21:24:15 i found the formula guys 21:24:25 http://oeis.org/A000984 21:24:33 that's for the nxn diamond 21:25:12 i'm glad to see fizzie figured out the same recurrence i did while i was in the shower :D 21:25:39 and found the same sequenc 21:25:46 yay being late to the party 21:26:41 did elliott decide on a laptop 21:26:52 he's asleep right now, I think 21:26:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:29:04 -!- Bike has joined. 21:29:44 The number of direct routes from my home to Granny's when 21:29:44 Granny lives n blocks south and n blocks east of my home 21:29:44 in Grid City. To obtain a direct route, from the 2n 21:29:44 blocks, choose n blocks on which one travels south. For 21:29:45 Maybe that's just what he wants us to think? 21:29:46 example, a(2)=6 because there are 6 direct routes 21:29:56 i wish i had thought of that solution 21:30:06 geez it's so obvious in retrospect 21:32:51 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:33:37 Finding Granny: so easy, a pushdown automaton could do it. 21:34:32 I wonder what sort of space you get if you add diagonal paths 21:35:08 diagonal to the southeast? 21:35:30 quintopia: Just in general 21:35:35 Since it wouldn't be taxicab space anymore 21:35:40 the recurrence gets much uglier 21:36:08 For the southeast? Isn't that just +f(n-1,m-1)? 21:38:53 http://oeis.org/A001850 and so on. 21:51:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:52:00 -!- copumpkin has joined. 21:55:33 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:55:49 -!- upgrayeddd has joined. 21:56:12 (The general taxicab-with-diagonals distance is called Chebyshev distance, or chessboard distance (king moves), or maximum metric (from D(a,b) = max_i |a_i - b_i|), or probably by some further names.) 21:59:19 -!- function has changed nick to trout. 22:01:39 Thanks fizzie 22:02:02 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:02:12 I remember looking at it earlier but I forgot about it 22:03:42 Seems Chebyshev and Taxicab metrics are duals of each other or something 22:04:22 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:05:12 fungohno 22:05:30 fungone 22:06:24 -!- fungot has joined. 22:06:30 fungoback 22:09:21 shachaf: one cool thing in Rust is that you can put debug print statements all over your code, and then enable them at runtime with an env var 22:09:34 and you can do this on a per-module basis, without needing to reiterate the name of the module on each print statement 22:09:49 I feel like a lot of languages should have this, but I don't think I've seen it before 22:10:28 kmc: So it's like assert in C but for printing? 22:11:00 it's a debug print statement, haven't you seen those before 22:11:33 Bike: kmc's point is that they are always in the code, but only turn on when compiling with debugging 22:11:35 not ones where you leave them in and then you say "enable debug printing for module foo:bar" at runtime 22:11:41 FreeFull: no do pay attention please 22:11:47 > enable them at runtime with an env var 22:11:48 Not in scope: `enable'Not in scope: `them'Not in scope: `runtime'Not in sco... 22:11:51 fff 22:11:54 Oh, runtime ones 22:11:58 that's what you get for 4chanquoting. 22:12:13 Bike: That quote style is much older than 4chan 22:12:13 These pens are not for everyone. They are pens that are for people that appreciate quality and are willing to spend a little extra on having something that is fairly unique. EiMIM stands for Everything in Moderation, Including Moderation. Most of the time I try to keep things as simple as possible, but every once in a while I need to embrace indulgence. Will a $2 pen write? Absolutely. The thing is, there is no soul in that pen. It was ... 22:12:20 ... produced with a million other pens exactly like it. These pens are different. 22:12:29 Bike: yks is amazing xD 22:12:39 I've seen lots of logging systems but usually you're required to name some "logger" on each print statement and that's what you can enable/disable 22:12:50 rather than it being implicitly controlled by the current module 22:13:00 kmc: Some of fancy C 'dprintf' macros (or whatnot) do enablation based on __FILE__ or top-of-source-file "MODULE" macro. 22:13:01 Bike: I'd say to that person, "If you like pens so much, make them" 22:13:09 kmc: #define log(s) real_log(__FILE__, s)? 22:13:09 fizzie: that's cool 22:13:31 Oh, fizzie said that. 22:14:09 Also __VA_ARGS__ so you can be all format string. 22:14:32 Yes. 22:16:58 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:17:59 -!- Bike has joined. 22:18:49 https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/728/934/bf0f707a2fbf5f442603d2a948ac8761_large.png?1373294172 22:20:06 FreeFull: oh they are making them. they are in-deed. 22:20:35 Bike: Is Amazon Aws where they serve all the kitten pictures from? 22:21:09 yes. 22:22:08 Bike, why... 22:22:50 Phantom_Hoover: uh did you see the table i think it's pretty clear. 22:23:59 what's the titanium 5 being used for 22:25:48 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eimim/eimim-x-y-and-z-pens1 here 22:26:03 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:26:11 something's gone wrong, Bike 22:26:14 something's gone wrong 22:26:41 yes and that thing is not enough craftsmanship 22:26:49 It's the extra 1 at the end 22:26:55 so i take it that these pens are A Bad Thing 22:26:58 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jul/08/mos-def-force-fed-guantanamo-bay-video 22:28:21 oh, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eimim/eimim-x-y-and-z-pens 22:28:35 what do the x, y and z indicate 22:28:41 also fuck his oxford commas 22:28:45 Bike: There's a better chart at http://www.sourcereal.com/ 22:29:01 that's true 22:29:03 not in png form though!! 22:29:11 I'd rather have a copper pen 22:29:26 Bike: Well, print it out and photograph it if you want a png. 22:29:58 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:29:59 why would you use a png for a photograph 22:30:07 Bike: To waste bytes 22:30:13 finally, pens for insufferable people 22:30:31 fungone 2: fungone harder 22:30:34 Bike: because it's a photograph of text 22:31:36 i like how the 'seamless design' is accomplished by cutting grooves all the way up the pen to make it hard to see the seam with the cap 22:31:44 haha 22:31:55 "I use the strongest permanent neodymium magnets available. They provide a unique and innovative method of attaching the cap to the back of the pen during use." 22:32:15 lol. 22:32:17 you are, er, calling the use of magnets to stick things together innovative 22:32:29 "yeah bitch! magnets!" 22:32:38 Strongest possible neodymium magnets 22:32:42 Phantom_Hoover: to be fair i don't think i've ever seen that in pens. 22:32:47 That cap isn't coming back off 22:32:52 That pen would be a hazard 22:33:20 Bike, yes, probably because for, say, any kind of practical pen design it wouldn't really work 22:33:28 don't be a h8r. 22:35:35 ALSO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNxhYdWEZHk 22:35:52 if anything that's MORE INNOVATIVE 22:36:22 hahaha this is so dorky. 22:36:36 patented magnetic engineering physics. 22:37:21 is this seriously $30 for two pens. 22:37:37 and in the end they're still shitty biros 22:37:54 Bike: http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/46417947427/hey-congrats-on-inventing-the-bowl-the-cookie 22:38:04 High milk displacement dunk technology. 22:38:28 this is taking the piss right 22:38:57 nope, $7,734 was donated (though it wasn't funded, so) 22:39:11 well i mean, they're probably writing it in a jokey tone 22:39:25 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1339254269/ron-paul-road-to-revolution 22:39:25 as a smokescreen over the fact that this is bullshit 22:39:26 wait 22:39:29 that got funded? 22:39:32 ron paul is a classic. 22:39:45 was it... a joke? was it funded as a joke? 22:39:47 Phantom_Hoover: that's the game, right? i don't think it's been made yet 22:40:12 wasn't it a blatant scam or something 22:40:12 wasn't that the thing where like the guy ended up admitting he had no idea how to make a game? 22:40:25 yeah 22:40:28 so it just kinda died 22:40:36 Basically, here's the problem: that finger extending, fist jamming, glass tilting lean to stretch for a dunk in those last few ounces of milk. It's an awful scenario. Best case? A partial dunk. Worst case? Milk spillage or you drop the cookie in and fish it out with a fork. 22:40:58 https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/438/812/28ef07a4bfb36e7852b766519f2f734e_large.png?1363050910 22:41:15 how many cookies are you dunking for god's sake 22:42:05 Is this part of the new face of American Manufacturing? 22:42:08 Yes! This is about how a small business, with a 3d printer in the back room (we don't even have a garage!), can iterate and develop an idea and then use Kickstarter to raise funds for production tooling. We work with local companies because ethically we think it's the right thing to do and it makes the most sense for a small company to manage the logistics. Our injection molder, packaging printer, assembly facility, warehouse, and order fulfi 22:42:30 also that thing reminds me of those glasses that are supposedly modelled on a breast or something 22:42:39 snort. 22:43:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:44:49 yourkickstartersucks is the greatest 22:46:05 wait 22:46:07 wait 22:46:20 OK so that eimim pen thing 22:46:39 one of the potential refills listed are the ones for fisher space pens 22:47:07 thing is, fisher space pen refills are a complete ink + nib assembly 22:47:29 so he's not just charging $55 for a ballpoint pen, he's charging $55 for a ballpoint pen casing 22:48:55 look if you buy expensive things then you're just flaunting wealth but if you buy expensive "minimalist" things then you can somehow pretend that it's morally justified and makes you better on an aesthetic plane as well 22:49:23 anyway as usual: a pen that does what I want is minimal, a pen that does what you want is bloated 22:50:00 (are you... insinuating that buying expensive things isn't morally justified) 22:50:23 I think I read somewhere that all Disney movies have Mickey Mouse in them, but does that include Pixar? 22:50:53 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/aural.html 22:50:58 you shouldn't believe all that you read! 22:51:11 Oh, you mean hidden mickeys? 22:51:25 Bike: Yes 22:51:35 why wouldn't pixar have those 22:51:59 I have sometimes found Mickey Mouse in some Disney movies I have seen, without being told about it before, but mostly I haven't done so. 22:52:29 Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. I haven't seen it in any Pixar movies. 22:52:37 (But maybe I just didn't notice it) 22:53:08 kmc, this is brilliant 22:53:17 i mean i don't know if it's a joke but it's brilliant either way 22:54:30 http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/std/local_data.html weird module imo 22:56:48 http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/682220-memejacker-limited-reopening-popular-demand-rave-reviews-fastest-results-i-have-seen.html finally, i can make my own website. 22:58:00 don't jack my memes 23:00:32 It took me a while to begin realizing that might not actually be a joke. 23:05:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality 23:05:14 these statistics are starting to immensely confuse me 23:05:42 i mean according to these statistics the poorest ten percent of the bolivian population earn more than the richest 10%, afaict 23:06:58 it says 93.9, so that's 93.9 times more for the richest 10% than the poorest 10% 23:07:10 er, sort by CIA R/P 10% 23:07:25 that's still positive. 23:07:39 ...yes, but it's a ratio 23:07:46 the average income of a member of the top 10% is 93.9 or 157.3 times the average income of a member of the bottom 10%. 23:08:01 oops, over one i meant, yeah, not positive. 23:08:04 ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 23:08:16 those numbers aren't percentages 23:08:20 ... yeah 23:08:22 haha, no. 23:08:28 *facepalm* 23:08:44 unless you think the top 10% of the UK earn a tenth of what the bottom 10% do ;) 23:08:46 yeah the numbers make a lot more sense now 23:09:11 gini is a percentage, though. 23:09:27 (not that it's all that great as a metric but that's another matter) 23:12:18 (i think i was thinking it was p/r in percent) 23:13:36 yeah having % in the column title desn't help 23:13:57 http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/47199723497/a-set-of-wooden-apple-keyboard-replacement-keys 23:14:05 i read this as 'tactical keys' 23:14:10 it was confusing and awesome 23:14:47 Hmm, what would tactical keys be like? 23:15:13 i'm not sur 23:15:14 e 23:15:43 maybe they'd have little scopes fitted to them? 23:15:55 "...I could totally see one of them under my iMac screen, sat on my chipped old marble-topped desk" -WIRED 23:16:17 wired.txt 23:16:35 ugh this thing is so ugly 23:16:45 Aren't those basically just pieces of wood, made sticky on one side, and cut to match the keys? 23:16:52 yes 23:16:56 Lame 23:17:03 i imagine they'd be horrible to use 23:17:18 it's a tactile experience 23:18:04 Every set of Engrain Keys has it's own inherent beauty and natural tactility, turning your keyboard into an individualized work of art that will compliment your desktop, and engage your senses every time you type. 23:18:38 Note: Engrain Keys are not recommended for installation on laptops, as the clearance is inadequate when closed and could result in scratching the screen. 23:18:56 it's 23:19:33 "The idea for the Engrain Tactile Keys originally spawned from my graduate thesis work " must not stereotype must not stereotype 23:19:52 https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/378/842/d09309f192b8847a72846f77ef5d0cf8_large.jpg?1360358317 aghaghagh 23:20:08 dear god 23:20:38 it's like typing on lays 23:20:50 i wonder if they're actually cut to the grain of the wood or if they just cut some template onto it 23:20:53 i wonder which is worse 23:21:21 looks like they just cut holes in a plank 23:21:26 you get the rest of the plank with the keys 23:21:49 yes but planks tend to be flat 23:22:09 in fact i imagine it's very hard to get any other kind of plank 23:22:33 if it's not flat it's not a plank it's just part of a tree 23:26:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:27:47 Bike: when I went camping someone else had this amazingly comfortable foam mat made of fancy foam with circular holes cut in it... they told me that there's a company selling earplugs to the military and they sell the leftover sheets of foam as camping mats 23:27:52 i was super impressed 23:28:23 nice 23:28:46 i'm sure i've heard other stories about industrial processes like that 23:31:16 * kmc → afk 23:45:32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Terminal_Event_Management_Policy 23:46:03 Bike: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/early/2013/06/27/jeb.087809 23:46:07 still good 23:46:20 Fiora: yeah that's been going around 23:46:27 fucking crazy far as i'm concerned 23:46:52 i guess i should actually read the paper, the news i've seen is a bit ambiguous 23:47:01 something about needing a refresher training session after the decaptation 23:47:21 (man jeb has the coolest papers) 23:49:29 also good: i've been to campus twice, haven't paid tuition yet, aand have still gotten dozens of papers from campus access. 23:55:59 Fiora: ...the paper has line numbers. i have never seen this before.