00:00:25 shachaf: In C11, you can also try and equally much fail to apply _Alignof to a function. (Being the argument of sizeof, _Alignof and & is the exhaustive list of when the conversion-to-pointer doesn't happen.) 00:00:32 hmm, so even if uintptr_t exists, you can't use it to store pointers? 00:00:38 fizzie: wow that's p. useless 00:01:00 olsner: You can use it to store any object pointer, if you go via void *. 00:01:01 you can probably memcpy a pointer to a uintptr_t 00:01:31 The pointer can be larger than a uintptr_t, so I don't think so. 00:02:07 Also the resulting uintptr_t value could presumably be a trap representation. 00:02:21 that sounds like a p. bad uintptr_t type 00:02:32 Unless that was a "can probably in real life", which is certainly true. 00:02:44 You can *store* non-function pointers in a uintptr_t, it'sw just not guaranteed to have at all the same representation. 00:02:59 It's merely guaranteed that you can round-trip the cast. 00:03:10 pikhq_: And it needs to be a void * before the conversion. 00:03:20 * Fiora googles "c pastebin that runs code", gets ideone 00:03:21 thank you google 00:03:38 * pikhq_ nods 00:03:53 http://ideone.com/RnuxoZ I am a really truly terrible awful person 00:04:00 "-- any valid pointer to void can be converted to this type, then converted back to pointer to void, and the result will compare equal to the original pointer --" 00:04:11 Fiora: did you ever see sizeof.c 00:04:14 Also, in POSIX you *can* convert void* to/from function pointers. 00:04:16 sizeof.c? 00:04:26 Fiora: http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/sizeof.c 00:04:38 the puzzle is what does that print 00:04:45 pikhq_: aww, POSIX adding boring sanity to C again 00:04:54 I'd... guess... e? 00:04:58 oh, %d 00:05:04 so um.... whatever the ascii for e is 00:05:05 Necessary for dlsym. :) 00:05:33 hmm, maybe it prints 1 00:05:50 imo run it and see 00:06:07 well, olsner said it 00:06:31 how does that work O___O 00:06:34 Operator precedence: it's what's for dinner. 00:06:45 \o/ 00:06:46 | 00:06:46 /´\ 00:06:49 -!- carado has joined. 00:06:50 Fiora: What's the type of (0)["..."]. 00:06:56 char? 00:07:03 fizzie is giving it away :'( 00:07:04 And the size of char? 00:07:06 1 00:07:13 i like how any time this channel talks about C it makes me want C to die and be replaced with Rust. 00:07:13 There y. g. 00:07:15 oh. this this is because of that.... 00:07:19 or. really anything else. 00:07:19 askdjfldfls 00:07:27 Note that sizeof is the operator, not sizeof(). 00:07:28 sizeof being a keyword and not having function semantics -_- 00:07:29 -!- carado_ has joined. 00:07:36 or function syntax 00:07:40 this is really a syntax thing 00:07:45 sizeof is basically an unary operator. 00:07:47 synsmeanticosomethign 00:07:50 this is why you should write "sizeof x" and not "sizeof(x)" 00:08:06 >_< 00:08:17 or (sizeof x) perhaps 00:08:26 (sizeof x) if needed 00:08:38 it's like a function application in haskell or something 00:08:48 the expression is "sizeof x", and you can put parentheses around it 00:09:02 now, for a type, you can think of it as "sizeof (T)" imo 00:09:09 where "(T)" is like a cast or something?? i don't know 00:09:14 ok 00:09:58 * Fiora is kind of clueless at C really 00:10:11 It's like types like to have round things around them, that's why the compound-literal syntax is also (T){ initializer }. 00:10:31 Like crazies and padded walls, y'see. 00:11:19 -!- shachaf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:11:28 does this C ever come up in practice, fiora 00:11:38 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:11:42 also i can't look at the .c for some reason. very mysterious. 00:11:45 um I don't know 00:11:58 -!- shachaf has joined. 00:12:29 help 00:12:34 p. sure this is a tmux bug 00:12:38 A lecturer at the university told us you declare a floating-point variable called "x" in C by writing the statement "c real;". 00:12:53 C, Fortran, what's the difference really. 00:13:01 Mmmm, lies. 00:13:06 (He was kind of a Pascal guy at heart, I think; but it was a C course.) 00:13:27 elcamino real; 00:13:33 Uh, I mean, "x real;". It wasn't a *blatant* lie. 00:13:41 I accidentally some BASIC code once when I was trying to teach Ada 00:13:47 fizzie: Yes it is. 00:14:06 fizzie: The floats are not even a subset of the reals. 00:14:32 #define c float, #define real x, problem solved 00:14:38 Well, I mean, "blatant" as in "completely obvious" (if you didn't know any C). 00:15:04 And somehow don't know a thing about floats. 00:15:21 Note that floating point values in general are not subsets of the reals. 00:15:22 pikhq_: well he'd hardly be alone in conflating floats and reals :/ 00:15:30 Bike: Even so. 00:15:45 ɪ ʀᴇᴀʟʟy ᴛʜɪɴᴋ yᴏᴜ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ɪɴᴠᴇꜱᴛ ɪɴ ɢᴏᴀᴛꜱ, ᴋᴍᴄ 00:15:47 You could know a thing about floats and still think "real" is just the name given to them in a language. 00:15:53 yeah. 00:16:01 But then the language itself would lie. 00:16:02 Horribly. 00:16:13 * pikhq_ also rants against decimal float literals, so. 00:16:47 Now, zomplex... there's a real type for real men. Er, I mean, complex type. 00:17:06 Remember kids, 0.1 is not representable as a float. :) 00:17:25 what about a decimal float!! 00:17:26 Base-10 floats are perfectly legal, though. 00:17:36 I'm assuming binary floats, sorry. 00:17:37 shachaf: how much is a reasonable amount to invest in goats? 00:17:47 olsner: all of it hth 00:17:48 Yes, if you use base 10 floats then decimal float literals are utterly reasonable. 00:18:11 ('zomplex' is the double-precision variant of 'complex' in some SGI things, among others.) 00:18:42 what we need is binary float literals 00:18:43 (I guess 'domplex' sounded too silly?) 00:18:51 Bike: Hex float literals are a thing. 00:19:14 too complicated, 1s and 0s 101ever. 00:19:30 They have the exponent (of 2) in decimal, which is slightly strange, if reasonable. 00:19:31 Five-ever? 00:19:54 fizzie: Strange, sure, but *shrug* 00:20:00 five ever, yes. 00:20:12 Is that like forever but longer? 00:20:16 The point is that it's got a definite mapping to a particular float. 00:20:23 fizzie: obviously. 00:20:40 In a way that doesn't make people assume decimal fractional representations work sanely. 00:21:27 yeah, i understand. i've read the papers on reading and writing decimal floats, they are appropriately horrifying 00:22:38 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 00:24:00 Strange quirk: even if FLT_RADIX is 10, and it's representable, decimal floating-point constants don't have to yield the exact value. 00:24:15 (Hex floats do, if FLT_RADIX is 2.) 00:24:28 pikhq's influence no doubt. 00:24:52 fizzie: Radix of 10 but represented with a binary value would do it. 00:24:55 "The value is 2 on all machines we know of except the IBM 360 and derivatives. " @_@ what did the IBM 360 do? 00:25:20 Fiora: Decimal floats. 00:25:28 "a system where FLT_RADIX is 00:25:29 16 (IBM/360)" 00:25:36 Wait what? 00:25:39 * Fiora flails confusedly 00:25:41 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:25:43 http://www.mailinglistarchive.com/html/fortran@gcc.gnu.org/2006-09/msg01338.html I found this? 00:25:54 I guess that's not the *craziest* possible, but... 00:25:55 i like that "IBM 360 and derivatives" is a 50 year product line that continues to this day 00:25:56 http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/zvm/v6r1/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.zvm.v610.edclv/floath.htm and this 00:26:07 what does it like... what does it mean to be 16? 00:26:33 ibm 360 succeeded by the ibm one 00:26:39 c.c 00:26:40 biiiiiiiike XD 00:27:06 My calculator does decimal floats, but there's no C on it. 00:27:15 Fiora: Floats are of the form xxx * 16^yyy 00:28:37 is that, like, functionally different from the 2-base? 00:28:50 like um. why would they do it that way 00:30:02 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:30:02 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 00:30:02 -!- kallisti has joined. 00:30:42 fizzie: can you be sure of that 00:32:07 kmc: About the "no C" part? I guess not; I mean, it's already untrue in the sense that I'm sure you can get code compiled with SDCC run on it; but I'm not aware of any C that'd use the (ROM) routines for decimal floats to implement a floating-point type. 00:32:52 Fiora: maybe it's something like in base-2 floats you can multiply/divide by two by changing the exponent, but in base-16 you can only change by a factor of 16 00:33:28 would it have like, the same range of representable values ? 00:34:18 you could change the bias of the exponent, i guess 00:34:31 It would have a different range-vs-precision tradeoff for a particular number of bits for mantissa/exponent, at least. 00:35:40 I guess it'd be like a hexadecimal float or something super weird? 00:35:55 sounds like that's exactly what it is 00:36:47 kmc: adjunctions are p. nifty imo 00:37:05 it seems mildly pointless, obviously any 16 float can be converted to a 2 float by adding four to the exponent 00:39:14 multiplying by 4, I think 00:39:19 Bike: ITYM multiplying by fo... rrrr. 00:40:06 urgh, yes. 00:42:37 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:57 (TI-86 floats: 14 packed BCD digits in 7 bytes, followed by a 2-byte binary-encoded exponent of 10, and one full byte of flags; so it's the same size as the "native" x87 80-bit format.) 00:44:25 weird 00:45:32 ever since becoming employed, I have been disappearing from the world of IRC 00:45:51 I will have to do IRC as a part-time job now 00:45:57 i ain't payin' 00:46:07 kmc pays attention 00:46:09 just like the rest of us 00:46:14 The exponent is also unsigned 16-bit with a bias of 0xFC00, so it has a range of -64512..1023 -- except only -999..999 are valid. 00:46:15 well, that's not my only service 00:46:17 kmc: adjunctions are p. nifty imo 00:46:19 er 00:46:21 unscrolled 00:46:22 i've heard that 00:46:24 the only irc currency that counts 00:46:32 fizzie: sux 00:48:28 fizzie: is that the same as like, TI-83 and TI-89? 00:48:28 Bike: They're also really slow. (Even taking into account the fact that it's all in software; the ROM code to do math on them isn't very OPTOMIZED.) 00:48:48 i thought the ibm 360 was OPTOMIZED to hell, man :( 00:48:56 (for the time) 00:49:35 it might have been state of the art 50 years ago 00:49:48 Fiora: I'd wager a guess that the -83 at least has same floats. I don't know about -89, since it has a whole 'nother CPU in it. 00:50:55 (TI-8x are Z80 systems for the most part, but the TI-89 has a 68k in it.) 00:52:22 ahhh 00:52:57 The -89 is like they took the guts of the -92 but fit it in the -8x series form factor. 00:54:40 Also it's a crying shame they didn't stick an eZ80 in that new color TI-84 silver plus C super turbo street fighter edition. 00:56:38 where is "super turbo street fighter edition" from? 00:56:44 a long forgotten meme 00:56:46 of some kind 00:58:43 -!- madbr has joined. 01:04:04 From the Street Fighter series of games; there was (among others) Street Fighter, Street Fighter II, Super Street Fighter II, and finally Super Street Fighter II Turbo. 01:04:44 (And apparently a Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix in 2008.) 01:04:54 the Street Fighter II franchise 01:05:20 they almost didn't rebooted it 01:05:42 (Also the Hyper Street Fighter II on the PS2 in 2003, apparently.) 01:05:50 sf3 afaik was a disappointment in popularity so they gave up 01:05:51 They all have a subtitle after tha name, too. 01:06:58 (Street Fighter II: The World Warrior; Street Fighter II: Champion Edition; Street Fighter II: Hyper Fighting; Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers; Super Street Fighter II Turbo: Grand Master Challenge.) 01:08:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:08:56 Anyhow, the ridiculosity of the evolution of * -> * II -> Super * II -> Super * II Turbo made it the butt of some good-natured ribbing, I'd say. 01:09:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:09:54 butts don't have ribs in them......... 01:11:52 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:13:57 In re sizeof.c from before -- int n = sizeof(0)<:"abcdefghij":>; /* even sillier */ 01:14:23 what's that do 01:14:28 It's the same thing. 01:14:45 i couldn't see the original thing :< 01:14:49 Except with <: and :> digraphs in place of [ and ], because, I mean, really, who has a character set with [] in it, that's so baroque? 01:15:02 It's surprisingly 1 instead of 'e'. 01:15:05 Oh. I didn't know C had digraphs. 01:15:08 hmm, is mozilla a non-profit? 01:16:49 digraphs : still in C because there's some dude from IBM in the standards panel :( 01:17:24 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 01:17:40 It has six digraphs (<: :> <% %> %: %:%: standing for [ ] { } # ##) and nine trigraphs (??= ??( ??/ ??) ??' ??< ??! ??> ??- standing for # [ \ ] ^ { | } ~) and of course the digraphs are treated in a whole another translation phase and manner. 01:18:17 The digraphs are not replaced inside string literals or anything, they're just tokens that are aliases for other tokens. 01:18:40 thank you ebcdick 01:27:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:27:56 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:28:26 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 01:29:55 why are there so many text encodings 01:30:07 because there are so many texts? 01:31:53 notepad.exe still doesn't support LF only 01:32:16 so anything from the unix world still looks like vomit in notepad :( 01:32:40 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:33:19 notepad++ should work though! 01:33:31 yeah except it sucks 01:33:51 :o 01:34:08 is there something else I should be using...? 01:34:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:34:51 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:35:27 fiora : I wish I nkew 01:35:30 knew 01:35:45 ed, obviously 01:36:11 madbr: The version of the MS-DOS edit program used with Windows does support LF only, though. 01:36:37 true 01:36:59 But the file is save using CRLF. 01:37:11 like, notepad++ isn't bad actually 01:37:17 zzo38: Any new levels in Potion of Confusing? 01:37:26 shachaf: No I haven't worked on that yet. 01:37:36 but it doesn't have notepad's best feature (being lightweight and loading fast) 01:38:09 madbr: Yes, I agree. 01:38:10 I've been working on a language for ultrazeux 01:38:20 maybe you could do something like emacs server for notepad++. 01:38:26 geez it loads in like I don't think I could even measure it 01:38:35 madbr: I have also work on ideas for UltraZeux too a lot! 01:38:45 it appears like, literally the instant I click the icon 01:39:00 half a planck time 01:39:21 zzo38 : I have an interesting draft... 01:40:04 madbr: I have a lot of ideas for UltraZeux. One is that the world file can contain more than one character set, that they are two planes, that the character height can be set per world file, that the only built-ins are empty, player, and robots and that everything else is defined in a "format file" written in Forth (including most of the Robotic commands!), have true sprite support, ... 01:40:35 That there are different character sets used for different purpose; robots are fixed to one but primitives can use all four, for example. 01:41:28 The kind of an object is a byte, although for a robot, the kind and parameter are used together so that you do not have the limit of robots as much as in MegaZeux; the limit instead then depends on the number of primitives (each kind of primitive reduces the number of robots per board by 256) 01:41:35 zzo38 : Here's some example code I've come up with 01:41:40 There would then be a default format file. 01:41:40 zzo38 : http://pastebin.com/CayQX28L 01:42:03 Do you have a raw link? That would be better. 01:42:49 http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CayQX28L 01:42:54 :D 01:43:19 Those are better since it loads much faster and doesn't require to open the web browser at first. 01:44:14 I'm aiming 2d "retro" games 01:44:36 so I'm going for spitesets and tilesets instead of just character sets 01:44:47 I am too, kind of. 01:45:05 I'm not quite decided on infinite layers yet tho 01:45:13 Still using many similarity to MegaZeux, although things like gems and so on are defined in the format file rather than being built-in. 01:45:42 for gems and so on I'd use some version of "copyrobot" 01:45:57 That is my kind of UltraZeux and it is different than yours, but does have spritesets and tilesets 01:46:07 madbr: That works terribly. 01:46:09 except it copies a robot from some extra hidden template board 01:46:24 Well, at least that is better than how it works in MegaZeux. 01:46:28 and it's not a copyrobot as much as a robot that doesn't have its own code 01:46:51 and so if you edit its code you're actually editing the code of all robots of that kind 01:47:24 plus it would probably have "instance settings" which are just different startup settings for the local variables 01:47:55 I still don't like that much; I think the primitives (as well as a large number of other things) should be defined in a format file, written in Forth, and then they have a parameter. So, they don't take up as much memory as a robot or anything, and without all of the stuff like a robot has. 01:47:59 so that you could parametrize the instances of that robot kindof like how you could set object parameters 01:48:36 So in other words it is simpler, but not suitable for some things. In addition, primitives would be synchronous while robots are asynchronous. 01:48:56 I'd go for everything synchronous still 01:49:09 But I do also have the idea that you can have a set of programs separate from each individual robot; that still helps. 01:49:24 multithreading is nice but for a GCS I don't think the extra speed is worth the extra complexity 01:49:26 -!- JesseH has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:50:13 Most of the Robotic commands would be defined in the format file too, and there would be a standard format file and character sets included. 01:50:13 you'd have some kind of execution-order "z" variable per robot 01:50:29 on each frame it sorts the robots per z and executes them in that order 01:50:59 I'd go for just C++ style functions instead of redefinable commands 01:51:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:51:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:51:28 and multiple "threads" per robot 01:51:38 mainly to deal with animation and display 01:52:03 Well, that is another way, but I don't really like that way much. I happen to like the way that MegaZeux is working mostly, although some things could be changed; each robot would have only one thread, not multiple. 01:53:08 like, in the example code I've pasted, you can see 2 threads (::main, ::invinco) and a function (:flip()) 01:53:32 the ::invinco thread deals only with invincibility after getting hit 01:53:49 and implements blinking 01:54:13 plus there would be an ::anim thread for doing animations 01:54:29 Each primitive would have associated some attributes and some events; some attributes are built-in while others can be user-defined (not al of MegaZeux's attributes are built-in). There are also some parameters of the kind such as dialog number (although these are defined in the format file), character and font number, color setting, and how to decide by the parameter and other things to change the character/color (if applicable). 01:54:37 and a ::display thread that would normally have standard sprite display code, but you can override it 01:54:39 I had a bitfield designed which would do these things. 01:55:25 how would you deal with pixel scrolling? 01:55:29 I happen to like the model used in MegaZeux (and ZZT) where a robot is basically just a script of commands with asynchronous events, and that these commands can be boxes of text opened up. 01:55:57 megazeux is kindof synchronous 01:56:42 multi-object simpultaneous synchronous :D 01:57:34 madbr: Pixel scrolling can still be a command; to move sprites by pixel by pixel, you can place sprites on the sprite layer in the editor or dynamically, and then those can be robots too, or primitive sprites (although they would need to be programmed differently than primitive tiles). 01:58:20 To scroll the screen by pixel it can be a built-in registers, which can be affected by writing into it by Forth and the format file can provide a command to Robotic which can do this or so on, or the format file can make it automatically scroll the window instead, or whatever 01:58:39 your design is a kind of mzx 3 right? :D 01:58:49 like, it extends megazeux? 01:59:24 madbr: Kind of, although many things are gotten rid of and completely rewritten, so things are defined in the format file instead of built-in, allowing many new things to be done. 01:59:51 It isn't compatible with any other MegaZeux, though, since it is an entirely new system, just with a few things from MegaZeux (and ZZT). 02:00:35 also I'd use 32bit floats as default variable type :D 02:00:42 there are a lot of text encodings because making a single text encoding that works for all text is incredibly hard, not to mention an organizational and political nightmare 02:00:47 I would use 32-bit integers instead. 02:01:52 like, I'm focusing on sprite movement 02:01:57 So the screen model has three layers, the tile layer, sprite layer, and dialog layer. The board has different layers though; the under layer, normal layer, overlay layer, and sprite layer. 02:01:58 and that benefits from floats 02:02:14 since you can have a velocity of 0.2 pixels per frame 02:02:32 Well, there would still be floats, but integers are default at least in Forth. 02:02:51 I'd probably just not even have integers 02:02:52 .2 pixels isn't a very good quality to store in a float `-` 02:02:58 quantity* 02:03:10 bike : .2 pixels per frame 02:03:29 so after 60 frames that becomes 12 pixels :D 02:03:33 I meant, it can't even be represented in binary floating point. 02:03:40 true 02:03:45 almost 12 pixels then :D 02:03:50 So it would be more like 11.998198117. 02:03:54 pretty good number of pixels 02:04:53 Many things are still built-in for speed and simplicity but can still be customized; for example, there is still the board window, status window, message window, etc although all of them can be customized in a large number of ways by the format file (and it can expose some of its parameters to the editor and/or Robotic programs). 02:05:01 you could pick a "planck length" fraction of pixels and then store velocities/positions/whatever as multiples of that (as integers). 02:05:30 this is a good plan because it involves "planck". 02:05:56 that's what SNES games did 02:06:02 just use fixed point everywhere 02:06:04 Or you can use fixed-point arithmetic to take advantage of fixed-point theorems 02:06:17 I'm a fan of floating point though :D 02:06:26 It's fast, it's useful, I love it :3 02:06:34 jerk 02:06:36 I am not trying to make the system for game with large number of collisionn sprites, and is mainly I am making the game which mainly uses tiles; for this and other reason, integers are default. 02:07:26 Also, world files would be compressed. 02:07:51 I'm going with json data for world files 02:07:58 with boards on different files 02:08:08 representing numbers as polynomials: good idea y/y 02:08:14 I am going with binary. 02:08:25 so that it merges on SVN and you can easily do a game in team :D 02:08:52 madbr: Your idea can work, but it is really not like Zeux/MegaZeux/UltraZeux at all so it shouldn't be called like that either 02:09:22 It's kindof stealing the best ideas from megazeux but targetting SNES style tiled games yeah 02:09:42 especially the platform/rpg/adventure/shmup quatuor 02:10:34 madbr: Then if you still want to call it Zeux, perhaps "SuperZeux" is better? Since, it is like SuperNES and MegaZeux. 02:11:06 perhaps 02:11:11 Bike: In some cases. I have once written a set of functions for dealing with polynomials of a single variable in Visual Basic for Applications. 02:11:38 the working title ATM is "CompoWinner" :D 02:11:44 But most recently these days I am doing things related to Z-machine. 02:11:56 madbr: Well, I suppose it is good enough for a codename. 02:12:17 also targetting OpenGL output for gfx 02:13:46 I want to try to write a intermediate language representation for Z-machine, so that I can write a compiler. (I have already written two Z-machine interpreters and a Z-machine assembler.) 02:14:42 and also I want to make the language compilable 02:14:58 so no dynamic typing, no garbage collection... 02:15:52 madbr: What do you compile into? LLVM? SNES? 02:16:00 not SNES 02:16:25 I'd probably have to use integer for that kind of platform :D 02:16:45 Do you want to compile into LLVM, or into C, or C++, or what? 02:16:54 not decided yet 02:17:04 but LLVM would definitively make sense 02:17:18 and C++ too 02:17:41 ("output a C++, compile it and put it on the appstore!") 02:19:59 still not sure how I'd deal with slopes either 02:28:22 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:28:26 -!- Bike_ has joined. 02:37:09 this reminds me of zzo, somehow http://sprunge.us/EdJi 02:37:12 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 02:41:04 solitaire speedrun 02:42:31 only for the hardest of the core 02:52:24 oh geez i missed exciting megazeux conversation 02:53:53 imo if you're going to make "something like megazeux" don't make the same mistake megazeux made and invent your own dumb language 02:53:57 just use lua or whatever jeez 02:54:31 yeah perhaps 02:54:51 tho I'm not sure anything is really adapted 02:55:46 definitively not sold on dynamic typing 02:56:36 also the lua coroutine system would have to be wrapped 02:56:45 and 1 based arrays rub me the wrong way 02:56:56 http://www.digitalmzx.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647 pretty excellent 02:58:00 i don't know why people complain about 1 based arrays :( 02:59:11 it breaks 2d addressing 03:00:21 you can easily just use 0-indexed tables for that 03:00:47 but that breaks the "number of things in this array" operator no? 03:01:16 it does, but would that even make sense when 2d addressing stuff 03:03:01 you could have #t be the height and #t[1] be the width of your 2d thing (if it were 1-indexed) but it's pretty hackish 03:03:48 also begin/end 03:23:30 http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#flaws-in-mainstream-science-and-psychology anyone ever get the feeling we're doomed 03:24:08 #haskell is the worst channel 03:26:26 I don't think it's the worst 03:26:35 how about ##c? 03:27:46 Bike: only every day 03:29:16 nooodl, madbr: no use scheme 03:29:58 science still progresses. the rate at which it progresses is a sociological problem. 03:30:14 what about all these other problems 03:33:22 people have vested interests and this introduces cognitive biases, and it turns out that hard problems are hard 03:35:03 bad research being done and published is a problem that may slow down some areas of a research to a crawl, but it's not dead yet, so to speak. 03:39:01 I don't think policy-makers with economic investment have any interest in the rate of actual progress. 03:39:15 So, yeah, sociological problem. Why not. 03:39:52 well, i mean, «Young’s 2008 Everything is Dangerous remarks that 80-90% of epidemiology’s claims do not replicate (eg. the NIH ran 20 randomized-controlled-trials of claims, and only 1 replicated)» 03:41:05 kmc : what sort of features does schemes that are useful for video games? 03:41:08 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:41:20 *kmc : what sort of features does scheme have that are useful for video games? 03:43:21 Bike: so science is running >20x slower than it could be 03:43:40 probably none 03:43:48 other than just being a good language 03:43:51 that is a way to characterize it but i'm not sure how good a characterization it is 03:44:18 It reminds me of software engineering. Rush to the finish line and you'll end up rewriting everything a few times. 03:44:51 Plan it out carefully and intentionally from the beginning, make progress faster in the long term. 03:55:06 science is hard kids 03:57:31 basically like, if bad reproducability due to the way journals work, and stuff like that, is "sociological", you might as well call a linux bug "sociological" because with a better society it wouldn't have arisen? 04:02:16 https://keen.io/blog/46856249197/keen-io-releases-api-for-dev-null 04:03:05 * Sgeo wonders if it actually writes to /dev/null or if it just ignores it 04:03:34 co-author of The Stringularity 04:03:46 It is a bit tautological to say that problems are sociological problems. They involve humans. 04:04:15 Nonetheless, some people don't think of science, math, etc. as fundamentally sociological processes. 04:04:21 Sgeo: https://api.keen.io/dev/null 04:05:04 well, they are, but again so is software development, which doesn't stop people from quite reasonably describing problems in specific non-sociological ways usefully. 04:06:34 like, people putting system("PAUSE") in their scripts is a sociological problem in that the society hasn't informed them that they shouldn't, but it's also a problem in that like... you shouldn't do that. 04:06:38 Same for dumb p<.05? 04:06:48 "state doesn’t scale" hahahahahaha 04:12:53 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:13:52 why shouldn't i do that 04:14:00 -!- kallisti has joined. 04:14:00 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 04:14:00 -!- kallisti has joined. 04:14:10 i dunno, people complain about it. 04:14:52 insert your own actual problem if you want 04:15:20 PHP is a sociological problem 04:18:28 PHP is making web development run >20x slower than it could be 04:21:02 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:23:37 -!- sacje has joined. 04:26:40 -!- mnoqy has joined. 04:32:33 dunno about that 04:33:24 i think development in PHP is pretty rapid 04:34:46 until you crash & explode 04:36:17 I guess haskell in comparison would be something like continental drift. 04:41:20 continental motion is very respectable. 04:45:29 not like those nasty fast car things. 04:50:12 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 04:57:18 software engineering is communication between software engineers 05:06:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:06:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:08:45 maybe i should add my /bin/ls quote to the faq!! 05:09:32 Is true that PHP isn't very good. There are other programming languages such as C. I might rewrite some of these program in C, at some time, to make them faster. 05:09:50 really market that shachaf brand. 05:10:03 Bike: totally, man 05:10:08 i mean, bicycle 05:10:10 totally, bicycle 05:10:28 smooth 05:13:35 Some people have added Lua into MegaZeux, but really it isn't necessary, and the built-in Robotic is more than enough, and works better for some of the kind of things anyways. 05:14:35 That is, such as switching between states and displaying menus of options, mainly. 05:17:19 General-purpose programming language don't really work well for that. I have added support for Forth, although that is in a separate file and runs differently; it is executed according to events it defines, and in the editor, etc. You would still use Robotic codes too, despite this. 05:32:17 shachaf: What is your /bin/ls quote? 05:32:33 `quote IO 05:32:35 1) I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 26) pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. ehird: consider low-gravity porn fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 28) i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quot 05:32:39 `quote bin/ls 05:32:40 No output. 05:32:48 @quote bin/ls 05:32:48 shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files 05:41:13 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:44:01 -!- conehead has joined. 05:46:17 -!- Bike has joined. 06:10:20 I am using 8.9GB of memory right now 06:10:38 So whoever thinks that 8GB ought to be enough for anyone was clearly mistaken 06:15:35 O no I played this game and now my (character's) head is broken 06:17:40 http://i.imgur.com/hAK5IsX.gif here is what concrete does when you put a lot of weight on it. 07:23:56 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:50:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:50:51 Sgeo: Is that figure without the file caches and stuff? 07:51:03 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:55:16 -!- carado has joined. 08:04:43 -!- conehead 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Oh, Poland, you and your city names... 09:18:56 -!- Bike_ has joined. 09:19:09 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:19:43 -!- neena has joined. 09:20:05 -!- Fiora has joined. 09:24:44 -!- Fiora_ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:24:45 -!- neena_ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:24:45 -!- Bike has quit (*.net *.split). 09:24:47 -!- tromp has quit (*.net *.split). 09:31:40 ion: What are some good Haskell exercises? 09:31:55 shachaf: FixMuNu? :-P 09:32:02 Yes, that's a good one. 09:32:18 Bazaar 09:32:22 Curry-Howard 09:32:28 And the whole Yoneda business is good -- I think I gave you those exercises too once? 09:32:30 I’m just listing things i have done (and found interesting) 09:32:39 There was talk about it but i never got started with that. 09:32:39 Hmm, Bazaar is good, I suppose. FunList etc. 09:32:44 Curry-Howard what? 09:34:44 Maybe there's a good set of exercises for Codensity etc. 09:34:51 But I don't think ezyang's version really works that well. 09:34:55 I picked misc. logical expressions, some valid and some invalid, converted them to Haskell types and wrote “proofs” for them as Haskell expressions or convinced myself one can’t be written. 09:35:05 Ah, sure. 09:35:38 Hmm, and LEM<->callCC/etc. is probably a good one. 09:38:05 Sounds interesting. Are you going to post these exercies somewhere? I’d like to take a look. 09:38:34 Which? 09:38:57 Well, everything i haven’t done yet. Yoneda, Codensity, LEM/callCC 09:39:20 Hmm, didn't you do the Yoneda thing? 09:39:43 An interactive tutorial with lecture segments an editor/interpreter/checker for exercises would be cool. 09:39:47 and 09:41:02 Oh, that "and" is correcting the previous line. 09:41:05 * shachaf was waiting. 09:41:25 ion: Pretend you had: callCC :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a (figure out why that type makes sense for callCC, I guess). Write: lem :: Either (Not a) a 09:42:29 I remember doing some figuring-out-Yoneda, but i should do more. I don’t remember much more than that one of Yoneda/CoYoneda was like a partially applied fmap. 09:55:16 kmc: <#haskell> My problem with Python et al is that I know enough to understand that its not "real" programming and that is causing me to baulk. 09:55:28 Admittedly this isn't a regular, just a, uh, someone. 10:11:07 Let me tell you a story about a real programmer 10:11:37 shachaf: you should start a shit#haskellsays twitter/tumblr/thing 10:12:34 I think there's an irc channel for that 10:18:14 shit#shit#haskellsayssays 10:21:20 Jafet: Mel? 10:22:03 I never melatonin I didn't like. 10:23:57 shachaf: Can you please try to follow my finger with your eye? http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3051#comic 10:35:52 -!- jconn has joined. 11:02:47 -!- aloril_ has quit (*.net *.split). 11:03:40 -!- aloril_ has joined. 11:14:20 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 11:14:47 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:21:11 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 11:44:11 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius. 11:57:57 -!- nooodl has joined. 12:14:08 -!- stuntaneous has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:24:38 -!- hogeyui___ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:47:54 -!- hogeyui___ has joined. 12:58:28 -!- FreeFull has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:01:26 -!- clog_ has quit (Quit: ^C). 13:01:37 -!- clog has joined. 13:01:52 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:14:39 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:25:54 -!- kallisti has joined. 13:25:54 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 13:25:54 -!- kallisti has joined. 14:22:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:26:28 -!- yorick has joined. 14:28:25 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:31:11 -!- carado has joined. 14:32:01 ~metar ZBAA 14:32:13 Oh no. :/ 14:34:41 `quote metar 14:34:47 996) metar lead to canada, more metar and cows 14:35:04 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 14:35:58 I think that's some kind of warning about the effects of metar 14:36:44 A friend's flying to ZBAA about now, was just curious. 14:56:53 -!- FreeFull has quit. 14:58:00 looks like it's "201430Z 17003MPS 140V200 5000 BR NSC 27/23 Q1004 NOSIG" btw 15:04:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:11:55 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:23:02 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:32:27 Prolog [SFM] http://youtu.be/w1j0KEsF6JU 15:34:51 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett. 15:38:41 ion, lies! That's not Prolog at all! 15:39:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:40:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:40:09 That's it, I'm switching to Quassel 15:43:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:53:45 -!- conehead has joined. 15:53:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:53:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:54:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:17:29 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 16:19:28 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 16:26:19 -!- kallisti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:26:29 Do you know what "a plate of viinerrine" is? 16:29:27 -!- VorpalPhone has joined. 16:29:46 Hi 16:48:51 zzo38: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Viinerine ? 16:49:51 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Quit: Bye). 16:50:40 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:51:03 olsner: Ah, OK 16:52:43 In this game I was playing I found it in Pluto, though, together with some other foods I don't understand, although some are ordinary foods such as coffee, orange juice, and bundle of fruits and vegetables. 16:53:56 Maybe they get the foods from various other places? 16:55:13 -!- Bike_ has joined. 16:58:16 I would think other places are really far away, though. 17:03:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:07:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:14:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:18:59 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:20:46 -!- Bike has joined. 17:23:55 shachaf: http://www.burritophile.com/directory.php?state=CA&city=San+Francisco&sort=high 17:49:55 -!- sacre has quit (Excess Flood). 17:50:21 -!- sacre has joined. 18:11:18 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:11:24 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:34:21 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:36:03 -!- Bike has joined. 18:39:27 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:41:03 -!- carado has joined. 18:56:32 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:58:31 -!- Bike has joined. 19:04:17 Well, my Scandinavia and the Worl's Finland cosplay is ALMOST COMPLETE 19:09:53 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:11:38 -!- Frooxius has joined. 19:12:37 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:15:11 Taneb: "y" no pics? 19:15:30 Because I have not attached the blue ribbon to my white shirt 19:22:04 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:24:04 -!- Bike has joined. 19:25:13 -!- nooodl has joined. 19:45:11 zzo38: I think you're the right person to ask: What gopherd do you use? 19:45:58 AnotherTest: One I wrote by myself. It is a prefix-based gopher server. 19:46:57 Is the source code available somewhere? 19:47:35 I've only found pygopherd and bucktooth so far, so I'm interested in other options 19:48:12 It is written in BASIC, so it isn't very good. I have once written one in C too, although I don't have it at this time. 19:50:04 Alright, thanks anyway 19:51:05 I happen to prefer prefix-based. 19:51:41 remember Fable (1996 video game) 19:51:44 ? 19:52:02 what does it mean for a gopher server to be prefix-based? 19:52:29 olsner: The configuration is made by the list of prefixes of the selector strings, to select the files. 20:03:47 http://i.imgur.com/GOpW5zo.png 20:03:55 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:06:43 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 20:09:52 -!- sacre has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:11:25 wtf tmux was already running for hours... 20:12:17 i started it with tmux new pine hours ago but my guess is it _still_ started a session with all my usual stuff... 20:13:00 ion: One hopes that game has a Free license. 20:13:10 and sessions don't tell about each other's existence :( 20:15:18 -!- sacje has joined. 20:16:39 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:17:05 -!- augur has joined. 20:20:35 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:27:49 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:28:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:30:02 -!- sacje has joined. 20:40:27 kmc: at 32 oz. each, that's almost 1.3 pecks!! 20:42:03 -!- aloril_ has joined. 20:42:11 Why am I always really sleepy on the one day a week I don't need to worry about having an early morning tomorrow? 20:42:31 Taneb: every morning is early hth 20:42:35 shamanism 20:42:55 shachaf, Sunday mornings happen three hours later than other mornings 20:43:07 ^rot13 shaman 20:43:15 fungot????? 20:43:22 `run ls bin/*13* 20:43:25 bin/r13 \ bin/rot13 \ bin/welcome13 20:43:30 `r13 shaman 20:43:37 help 20:43:42 `run cat bin/r13 20:43:43 tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M 20:43:49 you made r13. 20:43:50 lol 20:43:50 `run cat bin/rot13 20:43:52 echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M 20:43:54 because you didn't like how rot13 did what you want here 20:44:00 No output. 20:44:02 `rot13 shaman 20:44:03 funzna 20:44:10 `welcome13 Bike 20:44:12 Ovxr: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.) 20:44:16 imo, fantastic. 20:44:58 `welcome13 Inaro 20:45:00 Vaneb: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.) 20:45:06 Bah, so close 20:45:15 `welcome13 Gnaro 20:45:17 Taneb: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.) 20:45:28 Huh 20:45:32 @@ @let rot13 = @where rot13 20:45:33 Defined. 20:45:42 > (rot13 &&& reverse) "gnat" 20:45:45 ("tang","tang") 20:45:56 Taneb is a rot13 anagram for organ 20:45:57 > (rot13 &&& reverse) "ravine" -- best word 20:46:01 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 20:46:04 yes 20:46:08 "2 good 4 lambdabot" 20:49:55 "2 lambdabots 1 shachaf" 20:50:02 ew 21:00:50 Two Bikes one Bike 21:00:55 Also known as Three Bikes 21:04:26 hike 21:04:33 himc 21:05:13 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:05:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:06:23 -!- augur has joined. 21:23:45 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:30:47 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:32:21 -!- Bike has joined. 22:35:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:36:05 -!- augur has joined. 22:50:27 Does it not work because of the comment? 23:04:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:04:18 -!- mnoqy has joined. 23:19:59 completely off topic and spammy: 23:20:06 I need as many souls as I can get to help with a load test in #gifquick 23:20:11 I'd be very grateful if you helped out 23:20:17 /offtopic 23:20:21 i don't have any of those 23:26:54 -!- intosh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:34:57 sorry, i have just one, and it's out of order 23:37:22 souls are a measure of the value of real estate, right? 23:37:46 only in san francsico (the joke is that housing in san francisco is very expensive) 23:39:43 kmc: oh no did you sell your soul 23:39:46 no 23:39:54 do you have a soul 23:48:18 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).