00:05:06 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:06:24 <Gracenotes> still haven't picked a teapot color :/
00:08:36 <Jafet> `run echo '#' | rainwords
00:10:18 <Gracenotes> there are a few concerns. I want it to look nice, show off the tea color well, and also hide tea stains relatively well.
00:10:55 <Gracenotes> both of the latter two are impossible to achieve at the same time
00:11:22 <Bike> what if the color on the outside changed when heated (as if by spilled tea)
00:12:15 <Gracenotes> they're more to do with inside color, though
00:16:05 <Gracenotes> it's also about making a statement. nice and pleasant blue marine, or startling yellow/orange, or positively royalist deep red?
00:20:57 <Gracenotes> plus, how will it look when it is slightly worn? for best results here, it needs to maintain its modern look without falling into 80s-era flimsy-art-deco territory
00:22:15 <Bike> maybe you should find a professional.
00:23:28 <Bike> professional tea set locators, i mean.
00:23:44 <shachaf> Is that people who locate professional tea sets?
00:23:52 <shachaf> Even an amateur could do that.
00:24:19 <Bike> a professional professional tea set locator.
00:24:32 <Gracenotes> oh, tea set locators are just for spoiled tech workers with too much disposable income... oh.
00:24:44 * oerjan imagines a black and white checkerboard teapot
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00:25:57 <Bike> Gracenotes: you could pay them back by briefly working as a professional professional professional tea set locator disambiguator. Or farm that work out to shachaf for a small fee if you're feeling lazy.
00:38:03 <Gracenotes> I hope you have a portfolio of professional professional tea set locators you've found
00:38:26 <Gracenotes> Not that I don't trust Bike's referral...
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01:21:28 <shachaf> kmc: i like the idea of #[layout="C"]
01:22:01 <Bike> for controlling struct layout?
01:22:21 <shachaf> as opposed to the kind of ad-hoc thing that's going on right now
01:22:31 <Bike> i thought that was implementation-defined in C
01:23:00 <comex> and that means "by the ABI"
01:23:32 <Bike> oh, so that would make it have the target ABI's layout, gotcha
01:23:54 <shachaf> Yes, I mean compatibility with an ABI.
01:24:00 <shachaf> Which is what it does now anyway.
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02:18:34 <zzo38> TV Tropes has a article for "Sequence Breaking", but is there some that the proper (intentional) solution involves apparent sequence breaking?
02:19:18 <kmc> shachaf: I like that idea too
02:19:26 <kmc> I think the more Rusty syntax would be #[layout(C)] but not sure
02:19:43 <shachaf> Sounds good. Someone suggested that in the channel.
02:19:51 <zzo38> Using the maze graphic example, it could be a game where there is a invisible trap inside of the maze, so the only solution is to go around.
02:20:00 <shachaf> Maybe I'll send an email to the list about it.
02:21:22 <zzo38> These example of "Sequence Breaking", "Not The Intended Use", etc could possibly be done in the deliberate way where the way which appears to be what should be the proper way won't even work anyways.
02:23:29 <oerjan> zzo38: it sounds like an obvious novelty to try so there are probably such games. (but i don't know which as i'm not much of a computer gamer)
02:24:56 <zzo38> They might be possible in other games too such as Dungeons&Dragons, though.
02:25:02 <zzo38> Not only computer games necessarily.
02:25:19 <oerjan> well obviously a good GM/DM could try to do such things
02:25:59 <oerjan> in either case i suspect some of the difficulty is making it not so hard to realize that the players just get frustrated and annoyed
02:30:47 <zzo38> Well, I, as the player, am not frustrated and annoyed by such thing; it is the more common rules which I don't like much (for example one book says that the frost giant shouldn't have fire traps because the players aren't prepared; I disagree, the giant will put in such traps deliberately in order to prevent someone from entering if they think they are prepared!)
02:36:56 <shachaf> http://shachaf.net/curry.rs.txt
02:37:48 <Bike> nice 'n' readable
02:47:59 <zzo38> Do some computer games have checkpoint traps?
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02:51:51 <shachaf> Bike: your prose is nice 'n' readable!!
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04:07:57 <Taneb> I fell asleep 7 hours ago
04:08:02 <Taneb> I did not want to do tht
04:08:52 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Tue Jul 23 05:08:56
04:09:11 <Gracenotes> ah, well, either try to back to sleep more or drink lots and lots of caffeine
04:10:59 <Taneb> I had a dream I was programming in something like Python? idk
04:11:32 <elliott> says the guy who probably has biology dream
04:11:42 <Bike> yes. all orgies all the time
04:21:30 <Taneb> I was using this Python-like language to turn Pine trees into lumber
04:21:38 <Taneb> Using the pine.toLumber() instruction
04:22:31 <Taneb> Thus DESTROYING BIOLOGY! ahahahaha
04:26:40 <shachaf> i had a dream where i was a bicycle
04:26:51 <shachaf> it was refreshingly unbiological
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04:56:19 <kmc> that does sound nice
04:56:26 <kmc> what kind of bicycle were you
05:00:00 <zzo38> Can you win ADOM with one hit point (or just make your PV like negative one million; there are some attacks that bypass PV though)
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05:06:03 <tswett> fungot: dude, where'd you go?
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05:06:42 <tswett> fungot, that shining sun of my life, has plunged into the inky darkness of the ocean of the abyss of the valley of the shadow of death.
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05:25:07 <kmc> <dlackili> How can this custom "encryption" algorithm be made somewhat harder to "break"? <bennym> try involving a key somehow
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05:26:04 <Bike> isn't that the guy who was in here spamming his bullshit
05:29:06 <Bike> `run ls bin/ | grep past
05:29:08 <HackEgo> pastalog \ pastaquote \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog
05:29:21 <Bike> i don't know what any of these do.
05:29:27 <Bike> `pastlog dlackili
05:29:58 <HackEgo> 2010-07-24.txt:07:53:45: * Sgeo had a lot of pasta tonight
05:29:58 <HackEgo> 2013-07-22.txt:04:22:53: <nooodl> so which of the clues points to DES3 dlackili
05:30:20 <HackEgo> 2011-02-11.txt:19:13:35: <quintopia> Gregor: i only ask because copypasta is difficult on my phone :P
05:32:59 <HackEgo> 2013-04-17.txt:17:09:58: <HackEgo> bin/pastalog: ASCII text
05:33:07 <kmc> imagine... a log made of pasta
05:33:11 <kmc> `paste bin/pastalog
05:33:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastalog
05:33:41 <kmc> when I saw HackEgo quoting nooodl I assumed that was also the output of pastalog
05:33:45 <Bike> "@cliffcheney I am nearing Cairo Univ. hearing constant machine gun fire" the future is so weird.
05:34:23 <kmc> who's shooting at whom
05:34:44 <Bike> beats me, but i mean they did just have a coup
05:34:51 <kmc> coup everday
05:34:57 <Bike> maybe some MB org being ripped apart
05:35:27 <kmc> 'The top US military officer says any decision to use force in Syria could cost America billions, and that care must be taken to "preserve a functioning state".' WHERE WAS THIS GUY IN 2003?
05:35:33 <Taneb> Probably relevant: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/201372216452414482.html
05:35:48 <kmc> remember when a bunch of people said that about Iraq and they were dismissed as traitors
05:36:21 <Bike> well, the thing about syria is that everybody above the level of mccain understands how shitty iraq went.
05:36:37 <Bike> joke about politicians being able to learn
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05:37:19 <Taneb> I think it may be a bit late to preserve a functioning state in Syria
05:37:39 <Bike> "It has been reported that people on both sides have guns. Normally we do not see violence so early in the day" being an al jazeera reporter must be sad
05:38:11 <Bike> the syrian state is still functioning
05:38:20 <Bike> just, not in the entirety of syria
05:38:51 <Bike> s/how shitty iraq went/how shitty iraq is going/
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05:39:47 <Bike> oh, actually, you know there's an Islamic State in Iraq in syria now
05:39:50 <Bike> p. great names
05:40:37 <Bike> oh, shit, they've actually renamed themselves. it's "Islamic State in Iraq and Syria" now :/
05:40:46 <Bike> er, and the levant.
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05:52:08 <Taneb> I can smell cornflakes
06:00:19 <shachaf> kmc: I'm getting the feeling all the people asking to break their exciting new cipher in ##crypto are actually the same person.
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06:22:00 <ion> This DIY motor is p. awesome. http://youtu.be/Esphle_MsXI
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06:25:00 <dlackili> How can a simple Homebrew cipher involving XOR/GCD/Euclid's algo in haskell?
06:25:31 <shachaf> Good question. How can it?
06:26:19 <Bike> so what's the deal with odd zeta constants.
06:26:27 <Bike> we, like, don't know if zeta(5) is irrational? imo, what the fuck.
06:28:41 <shachaf> Bike: hey i heard we don't know whether pi^pi^pi^pi is an integer
06:28:52 <shachaf> by we i mean you personally btw
06:29:04 <Bike> i do not know that, no.
06:29:10 <dlackili> gcd a b = a `xor` b, where binary (a `xor` b) = "hithisismyresult"
06:29:40 <dlackili> GCD + Final A and B in Euclid's Algorithm XOR some value -> plaintext
06:29:41 <Bike> "you know i don't think gcd works like taht"
06:30:04 <shachaf> forward to the smlist update tomorrow y/n
06:30:26 <dlackili> Anyone made a simple encryption algorithm/cipher before?
06:30:44 <Bike> turns out you can't do it by throwing together random shit, though!
06:31:06 <Bike> of course it was breakable, do i look like a genius to you
06:31:17 <shachaf> Bike: oh wikipedia says it's not known
06:31:34 <Bike> shachaf: yes. i also don't know.
06:31:42 <Bike> dlackili: it was just a caesar cipher.
06:31:58 <Bike> > pi ^ pi ^ pi ^ pi
06:32:01 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `GHC.Real.^'
06:32:05 <shachaf> "Particularly, it is not known if the positive root of the equation 4x = 2 is a rational number"
06:32:24 <Bike> tetration is hard.
06:32:30 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
06:32:45 <Bike> > pi ^ (pi ^ pi ^ pi ^ pi)
06:32:46 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `GHC.Real.^'
06:32:52 <Bike> well i guess that answers that question!
06:32:53 <dlackili> I am thinking of using XOR/AND/pi in my encryption algorithm for a puzzle
06:33:06 <Bike> shachaf: the joke is,
06:33:12 <Bike> > pi ** pi ** pi ** pi
06:33:29 <Bike> ok i got that locally but that's because i'm on a shitty 32 bit machine.
06:33:32 <dlackili> Anyone got any cool algorithm ideas?
06:33:34 <Bike> > (pi ** pi ** pi ** pi) :: CReal
06:34:05 <Bike> > let pi = pi :: CReal in pi ** pi ** pi ** pi -- i am the worst
06:34:31 <shachaf> now i can't tell which things are jokes anymore
06:34:42 <lambdabot> 437700548734202700764895770266348348092832914249674791140665053626929347534...
06:34:58 <dlackili> > 777777777777777777 * log 7 / log 2
06:35:12 <Bike> shachaf: the only joke was haskell not figuring if ⁴pi was an integer. the ret is incompetence.
06:35:37 <shachaf> imo more jokes, less incompetence
06:35:56 <dlackili> gcd a b = a `xor` b, where binary (a `xor` b) = "hithisismyresult"
06:35:58 <shachaf> haskell has ^ and ^^ and **
06:36:04 <dlackili> COuld that be an encryption routine?
06:36:12 <Bike> dlackili: a bad one
06:36:51 <shachaf> hey Bike, why do mirrors reflect things left-to-right and not up-to-down
06:37:02 <Bike> well to start with it doesn't even make sense. is that supposed to be, like, haskell
06:37:09 <Bike> shachaf: don't fucking stalk me
06:37:52 <Bike> oh right it's not even known if pi plus e is irrational
06:38:39 <Bike> well, it's unclear.
06:38:50 <shachaf> maybe all haskell code is pseudocode because haskell isn't used in the real world
06:38:52 <Bike> is "where" supposed to be english or pseudocode? why are you defining gcd wrongly? what's a and b
06:40:11 <dlackili> i'm not defining GCD… it's just an equation
06:40:35 <dlackili> and "where" is english or logic, you choose
06:40:55 <shachaf> Bike: what's the context of the "stalk" thing
06:41:13 <shachaf> that question comes from a source completely unrelated to you
06:41:37 <Bike> i was talking about that literally today.
06:41:57 <dlackili> So anyone have any encryption algorithm ideas in haskell?
06:42:05 <shachaf> but i'm p. sure you weren't involved...........
06:42:18 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
06:42:34 <Bike> @let tetrate x 0 = 1; tetrate x n = x ** tetrate x (n - 1)
06:42:46 <zzo38> My brother once told me that he asked someone for additional objects in a computer game he was making, and one of the suggestions was "invisible bomb that kills you so much that you have to restart the entire game".
06:43:09 <Bike> am i missing something here.
06:43:19 <shachaf> you're missing a good haskell evaluation bot
06:43:22 <shachaf> all we have is lambdabot :'(
06:43:37 <Bike> isn't elliott in charge of it now? i can pointlessly and unwarrantedly blame him, right
06:43:54 <Bike> alright now for the important
06:43:55 <shachaf> Bike: nothing pointless or unwarranted about it
06:43:58 <Bike> > tetrate pi 4
06:44:01 <shachaf> he took over with the promise of making it better
06:44:12 <Bike> guess that proves it.
06:44:18 <Bike> > tetrate (pi :: CReal) 4
06:44:30 <Bike> should i even guess what's going on there.
06:45:23 <shachaf> where were you even talking about the mirror thing
06:46:09 <dlackili> A hill based cipher in haskell
06:46:24 <Bike> someone else asked me months ago
06:46:33 <shachaf> someone else asked me years ago
06:47:04 <dlackili> Bike: "such that" would have been better than "where"
06:51:41 <shachaf> that package is p. cool isn't it
06:55:28 <Bike> @let hyper 0 _ b = b + 1; hyper 1 a 0 = a; hyper 2 _ 0 = 0; hyper _ _ 0 = 1; hyper n a b = hyper (n - 1) a (hyper n a (b - 1))
06:55:35 <Bike> > hyper 1 7 19
06:55:57 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
06:59:04 <dlackili> Would be interested to see a Haskell implementation of it
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07:02:51 <Bike> dlackili: Maybe you should "hask" in #haskell.
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07:03:32 <shachaf> 23:55 <dlackili> How could this be done in haskell? http://wiki.tcl.tk/3468
07:03:50 <Bike> elliott: Behold my power.
07:04:19 <elliott> Bike: your power is so amazing it took effect before you said it
07:04:38 <shachaf> the sulphur is now fully exposed to the power of the bicycle
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07:04:57 <shachaf> people are going to correct me for misquoting now :'(
07:05:17 <Bike> I have no idea what you were quoting.
07:05:43 <dlackili> shachaf: Haskell seems uninterested :P
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07:26:20 <shachaf> kmc: did you read Breakfast of Champions
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07:27:46 <comex> from ##c: 03:13 < dlackili> How could this be implemented in C? http://wiki.tcl.tk/3468
07:28:53 <Bike> How could this be implemented in brainfuck
07:29:24 <shachaf> This person has been doing this in ##crypto, too, of course.
07:29:32 <shachaf> After being banned under other nicks or something?
07:31:31 <ion> https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/bb1e8e1a773b87b1f0220a1e1993c830/tumblr_mpde0t3k031rvh71go1_1280.png
07:32:37 <ion> That’s one of the least horrible horrible URLs.
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08:27:37 <zzo38> I might want to see a proper full-length review of my computer games (and Dungeons&Dragons recording story, etc) (and including TV Tropes if applicable).
08:31:00 <zzo38> In Super ASCII MZX Town Part I, there is a feature which allows you to change the display of the player's position to always a happy face or to a variable (health, ammunition, torches, or torch light remaining). This feature exists in Part II, too. Do you see what I am getting to with this? Probably not, but if you do then please notify me!
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08:33:29 <zzo38> In the second to last level of Part I, there is a multiplication puzzle where you have to push numbered blocks onto dots in order to make a proper multiplication, you walk up to the door to try to open it and it opens if the multiplication is valid (it checks; the solution isn't hard-coded).
08:35:52 <zzo38> In the second to last level of Part II, there is a similar multiplication puzzle, although you have to instead push the space-bar when it is correct, in order to open the door, but there are more numbered blocks than dots and no matter how a subset of them are arranged there is no solution (I wrote a program to find solutions, and it found none).
08:35:57 <zzo38> Do you see what I mean yet?
08:37:20 <zzo38> (Note: For the player display feature, it will display a happy face if the register's value is 100 or more; otherwise it displays a digit which is one tenth of the register value (rounded down). For example, if you have 42 points of ammunition and you set it to display ammunition, it will display 4. You can still know it is the player by its distinctive color, though.)
08:37:33 <zzo38> (I think I have seen a similar feature in another game.)
08:48:36 <Taneb> Apparently mcmap is 0.6% Rust
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08:53:07 <zzo38> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how much apparently iron is % Rust?
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09:06:52 <zzo38> You might know the logic puzzle where a man is caught and they say if what he says is true he will be hanged and what he says is false he will be shot.
09:07:46 <Taneb> The answer is "I will be shot", right?
09:08:25 <zzo38> That is their answer, but I don't think so. They don't say that if you do not say something true you will not be hanged, and if you do not say something false you will not be shot.
09:08:37 <zzo38> Anyways if they are let free then the statement is a lie...
09:09:07 <zzo38> If they hang him and then shoot him while he is hanging on the rope, that resolves the paradox and satisfies the conditions, I think.
09:10:04 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you think I am correct?
09:10:53 <Taneb> You raise some good points
09:11:34 <Taneb> And shooting him while he is being hanged does resolve the paradox
09:12:04 <zzo38> And letting him free violates the conditions
09:15:32 <zzo38> Did you tell anyone else?
09:21:30 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorne%E2%80%93%C5%BBytkow_object wow this is like. a cool thing
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09:34:36 <zzo38> Now, what about the Super ASCII MZX Town game? Did you answer this question yet?
09:35:12 <Taneb> What would the Olympics be like if the US had to send a different team for each state?
09:35:22 <Taneb> And each state had their own medal count
09:36:47 <zzo38> Taneb: They would change the country codes, I suppose.
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11:48:02 <fizzie> "s/PATTERN/REPLACEMENT/msixpodualgcer" so many flags they have these days.
11:50:05 <fizzie> It's implied by the e, I think.
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11:50:21 <Deewiant> Probably; just saying that there's even one more.
11:55:26 <elliott> "They have negotiated with the government and agreed on a system called "Active Choice +" in which customers opt in for filters [...] The leaked letter [...] suggests: "Without changing what you will be offering (ie active-choice +), the prime minister would like to be able to refer to your solutions [as] 'default-on'"."
11:55:40 <elliott> the offness of the filters defaults to on
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12:10:51 <dlackili> GCD'ing all the possible combinations will give them 12 letters/numbers if we specially design the four digits, though I haven't thought that through yet
12:11:28 <dlackili> if we could control 8 of the digits, we could get a pastebin link
12:11:42 <dlackili> i think it would be constructible using primes
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13:06:57 <boily> good humid morning!
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14:00:36 <oerjan> <Bike> we, like, don't know if zeta(5) is irrational? imo, what the fuck. <-- the thing is iirc, there is a simple proof that only works for even arguments, and a completely unexpected special proof for 3. all larger odd numbers are unknown.
14:01:33 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> we, like, don't know if zeta(5) is irrational? imo, what the fuck. <-- the thing is iirc, there is a simple proof that only works for even arguments, and a completely unexpected special proof for 3. all larger odd arguments are unknown.
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14:02:33 <fizzie> ^tell oerjan Use a better bot.
14:02:33 <fungot> I think you mean @tell instead?
14:02:39 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think that's helpful at all.
14:02:40 <fungot> fizzie: i don't see how 99bob is related.)
14:02:49 <fungot> oerjan: most of them are much worse things in haskell syntax... as usual it's much simpler
14:03:25 <fungot> oerjan: final fantasy vii
14:03:57 <boily> oh, fungot is alive! hi fungot!
14:03:58 <fungot> boily: as the parameter ft.
14:04:24 <oerjan> fungot turned into a parameter? :(
14:04:29 <boily> I won myself an FF X2 poster from an... what's the word... auction? yesterday night.
14:07:06 <Taneb> ("raffle" would be «tombola»
14:08:36 <nooodl> /ɑ̃.kɑ̃/ is fun to say
14:10:05 <oerjan> !python print pow(3.14,pow(3.14,3.14))
14:10:07 <boily> the Infamous French Nasal Vowels strike again.
14:10:26 <boily> (speaking of infamous things, what about the II? how's it going?)
14:10:51 <oerjan> it looks to me like pi^pi^pi^pi is just a little too large to check for integership?
14:12:41 <Taneb> oerjan, what would it mean for pi^pi^pi^pi to be an integer?
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14:13:12 <oerjan> Taneb: that it has no fractional part?
14:13:26 <Taneb> Anything interesting beyond that?
14:13:32 <oerjan> also, it's an unknown problem mentioned earlier in the log and on wikipedia's tetration page
14:13:46 <Taneb> It's one of the Everests of maths
14:14:17 <oerjan> yes, although it looks like it's just a _little_ out of reach and moore's law might catch it?
14:15:09 <Taneb> Does the function f(x)=n^^x have a well-defined derivative?
14:15:18 <oerjan> assuming it _isn't_ an integer, that is. if it is it'll probably take some serious proving. but i expect no one suspects that.
14:15:51 <oerjan> Taneb: you first have to define it for non-integers before the question makes sense.
14:16:33 <oerjan> and any such definition would likely be made to have a derivative, and probably analytic.
14:18:31 <oerjan> "At this time there is no commonly accepted solution to the general problem of extending tetration to the real or complex values of n."
14:20:28 <oerjan> "There are two main approaches to extending tetration to real heights, one is based on the regularity requirement, and one is based on the differentiability requirement. These two approaches seem to be so different that they may not be reconciled, as they produce results inconsistent with each other."
14:22:43 <oerjan> it's defined in the article
14:23:02 <oerjan> \left( \frac{d^2}{dx^2}f(x) > 0\right) for all x > 0
14:23:42 <Taneb> Its derivative is always an increasing function for x > 0
14:23:46 <oerjan> that still implies that it's differentiable twice though
14:24:07 <oerjan> but presumably you cannot have that and infinite times differentiable.
14:26:08 <oerjan> "There is a conjecture[10] that there exists a unique function F which is a solution of the equation F(z+1)=exp(F(z)) and satisfies the additional conditions that F(0)=1 and F(z) approaches the fixed points of the logarithm (roughly 0.31813150520476413531 ± 1.33723570143068940890i) as z approaches ±i∞ and that F is holomorphic in the whole complex z-plane, except the part of the real axis at z≤−2."
14:27:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration#Extension_to_complex_heights nice fractally picture
14:30:29 <oerjan> wtf did the logs turn black on grey...
14:34:25 <oerjan> does http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-07-23 look black on grey to anyone else?
14:35:41 <oerjan> it wasn't a few minutes ago...
14:36:26 <oerjan> let's see gregor isn't here, lambdabot isn't working, elliott isn't responding...
14:36:37 <oerjan> shall i just ban everyone and get it over with.
14:36:40 <boily> @tell elliott RESPOND!
14:37:16 <Taneb> oerjan, imo I should be op to create a balance of power
14:37:30 <boily> we should enquire the Voice of Kmc and request an Audience.
14:40:16 <oerjan> gregor has blocked memoserv...
14:41:03 <oerjan> i think today is the annoyance singularity.
14:42:03 <metasepia> EGNT 231420Z 12006KT 080V170 9999 FEW020 23/17 Q1013
14:42:11 <boily> well, at least it's not raining.
14:42:24 <oerjan> thankfully there is tunes
14:43:57 <Taneb> ...that is my weather
14:45:29 <Bike> Fiora: what the hecks.
14:47:08 <Fiora> Bike: a supernovae lends a bunch of kinetic energy to the resulting remnant, so it will often launch the neutron star into a companion red giant
14:47:36 <Fiora> also the original paper is from 1977 @_@
14:47:52 <Fiora> by kip thorne, even!
14:48:24 <Bike> is that a name i should know
14:48:48 <Bike> "he invented astrophysics and is the president of belgium"
14:48:57 <Fiora> I think he's a pretty famous physicist? like, along with hawking and stuff
14:49:32 <oerjan> Bike: sound plausible hth
14:49:58 <oerjan> but won't poor philippe get jealous
14:50:16 <Fiora> I remember his name was on like a book my dad gave me when I was little? I think
14:50:22 <Fiora> ... right! "Blac Holes and Time Warps"
14:51:32 <oerjan> so are you saying a supernova is like a loose cannon
14:51:49 <Bike> aw man his doctoral advisor was fucking wheeler
14:52:47 * oerjan fails not to point out the ambiguous grammar in that
14:52:57 <Fiora> he did like, PBS popularity science stuff, like Sagan did
14:53:38 <Bike> oerjan: yes i am aware
14:54:03 <Taneb> Fucking Wheeler was doctoral advisor to many gifted individuals, despite his unfortunate forename
14:54:08 <Fiora> Bike: wow it is scary to see that like, wheeler's list of doctoral students is like, almost entirely wiki-linked
14:57:04 <boily> Fiora: you are like,-ing a little bit too much by this fine morning, I think.
14:57:14 <Bike> well he is john archibald wheeler.
14:57:36 <boily> oh. in that case, please proceed along.
14:58:40 <Bike> oerjan: re zeta(5): Yeah I was looking this up because a book said we didn't know shit about the odd values, but we actually don't, so
15:00:32 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that the difficult terms cancel each other when it's even, or so.
15:01:32 <Bike> well euler's proof only works for evens is all
15:01:48 <Bike> btw euler's paper is pretty sad
15:02:03 <Bike> they hadn't invented "pi" yet so he's all "the circumference of a circle whose diameter is 1"
15:11:23 <oerjan> "After Jones introduced the Greek letter in 1706, it was not adopted by other mathematicians until Euler started using it, beginning with his 1736 work Mechanica."
15:13:04 <shachaf> Jones, inventor of the Greek letter.
15:21:12 <oerjan> <Bike> isn't elliott in charge of it now? i can pointlessly and unwarrantedly blame him, right <-- CORRECT
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15:22:30 <kappabot> Ambiguous type variable `b0' in the constraints:
15:23:51 <Bike> glad it's not just me who fucks that up ;-(
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15:24:17 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:24:19 <oerjan> and i was even reading the mess you made. hey i can blame you for corrupting me!
15:24:36 <Bike> > let e = exp 1 in e ** e ** e ** e
15:24:50 <shachaf> > (exp . exp . exp . exp) 1
15:24:54 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:25:30 <shachaf> oerjan: what's the biggest number
15:26:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Hm, I just tried out cfunge on cygwin, and discovered something weird... It prints floating point numbers using a fixed number of decimals (instead of skipping any trailing zeros as on Linux)
15:26:35 <Vorpal> Not really an issue, since I'm pretty sure FPDP/FPSP doesn't specify formatting details
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15:27:16 <Bike> "not that big right"
15:27:18 <oerjan> so e^e^e^e is presumably within reach
15:27:50 <oerjan> although possibly not with the bots
15:27:58 <Bike> > iterate exp 1
15:28:02 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:28:30 <oerjan> shachaf: it seems to time out rather fast ht
15:29:06 <Bike> wel, (exp exp exp exp 1) is bigger than my 32 bit machine can handle
15:29:41 <Deewiant> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=e^e^e^e
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15:29:56 <Fiora> that's a lot of e's
15:30:57 <Bike> can 64 bit doublees handle 22 bits of exponent
15:30:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also there is now a 64-bit setup.exe download on the cygwin website, haven't tried it yet. No idea how stable it is an so on
15:31:03 <oerjan> > (exp . exp $ exp 1)/log 2
15:31:07 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:31:14 <Deewiant> Haven't used cygwin in ages, dunno
15:31:17 <oerjan> shachaf: I AM DISAPPOINTED
15:31:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, their website isn't exactly clear on stuff like "can you install both side by side?" or "how stable is this?"
15:31:53 <Vorpal> Not clear as in I can't find that info at all
15:32:09 <shachaf> kappabot: @part #esoteric in shame
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15:32:15 <Deewiant> I imagine there's nothing preventing side-by-side installation, just don't have both in PATH and whatever
15:32:39 <Vorpal> I thought cygwin put stuff in the registry
15:33:02 <Deewiant> I've always thought of it as just like any other application
15:34:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, the output of 3DSP is really hard to read when cygwin prefers 0.000000 instead of 0
15:34:10 <Vorpal> Which is very very strange still
15:34:15 <shachaf> oerjan: kappabot is sad :'(
15:34:17 <oerjan> 23:56:19 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
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15:34:25 <oerjan> wat, i thought elliott had changed that
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16:30:49 <kmc> shachaf: we're discussing whether the Rust unsafe raw pointer type should have mutable and immutable versions, like the other pointer types
16:30:52 <kmc> what do you think
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16:31:43 <shachaf> "immutable" just meaning that you personally can't mutate it, like const in C?
16:34:13 <Gracenotes> such a thing might be used when calling C libraries?
16:34:28 <kmc> but if you import a C function and say that its rust type uses *c_char rather than *mut c_char, that's just unchecked documentation
16:34:48 <Gracenotes> so not a totally opaque pointer, but read-only..
16:34:50 <kmc> the C function could still mutate through that pointer
16:35:06 <shachaf> But you can define an unsafe Rust function and that could presumably be checked, right?
16:35:26 <shachaf> There isn't that much you can do with FFI, unless you're going to parse C headers or something.
16:36:00 <kmc> well Rust does have a thing that parses C headerS: https://github.com/crabtw/rust-bindgen
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16:36:23 <shachaf> Even parsing C headers isn't really checking C functions.
16:37:53 <shachaf> It seems like a useful distinction to make in a type, even if it's weaker than the normal immutable pointer types.
16:51:20 <kmc> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/mfbt/DebugOnly.h neat hack
16:54:41 <shachaf> Hmm, I've seen that before.
16:57:49 <shachaf> Something Mozilla-related, I think.
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17:18:58 <shachaf> kmc: hey, would you care to look at my unbreakable encryption scheme on pastebin.com
17:19:05 <shachaf> it's p. too hard for you tho
17:34:16 <zzo38> What is that logic puzzle called involving the guy who is hanged or shot if he tell the truth or a lie?
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17:58:02 <zzo38> "If the plan involves someone injuring themselves in order play on someone's sympathies to gain an advantage, that's a Wounded Gazelle Gambit." What if the plan involves injuring yourself in order play on someone's lack of sympathies to gain an advantages?
17:59:00 <boily> zzo38: probably a batman gambit.
17:59:41 <zzo38> O, I suppose you are correct.
18:00:05 <zzo38> I still think there are a lot of gambit missing from their list, though.
18:00:22 <boily> and I think they renamed some, too.
18:00:26 <shachaf> zzo38: What about the Indefensible Gambit?
18:00:54 <zzo38> What is it called if you pretend to be someone else pretending to be you? (I don't mean they are pretending to be you; I mean that you are indirectly pretending to be you.)
18:04:27 <boily> I knew it: there's recursive crossdressing, even if that's not *quite* what you want, but close enough for me.
18:05:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Indefensible Gambit?
18:06:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Three undertrumps after an opponent's discard of a Trebled Fromp.
18:07:01 <zzo38> I suppose you shouldn't discard a Trebled Fromp unless you have a good reason to believe that your opponent won't be able to make three undertrumps.
18:07:15 <boily> ~duck runcible spoon
18:07:15 <metasepia> A three-pronged fork, such as a pickle fork, curved like a spoon and having a cutting edge.
18:07:34 <zzo38> But such a gambit is too specific, unless it is widened perhaps.
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18:11:29 <zzo38> Is there any Death Note fan story where someone is tricked into changing their name?
18:12:56 <boily> slash fiction where L must become Ł?
18:13:42 <zzo38> "L" isn't his real name so that doesn't count.
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18:23:34 <zzo38> What is it called if in a Dungeons&Dragons game you try to make saving throw against a spell that although it is allowed you normally don't do so because it is marked as (harmless)?
18:24:10 <zzo38> Deewiant: I don't think so.
18:24:23 <zzo38> I mean where you actually gain an advantage by doing so.
18:24:38 <Gracenotes> how do I remember copious numbers of non-ASCII Unicode symbol codes?
18:25:00 <shachaf> how copious are we talkin'
18:25:21 <Gracenotes> as much as I will need to be a first-class citizen of the <s>world</s> IRC
18:25:24 <zzo38> I have never had the opportunity myself to find it useful, although there was a situation where it would have been useful for one of the other players; I told them but they decided not to use it anyways.
18:25:50 <shachaf> Gracenotes: just memorize them as you use them hth
18:26:26 <zzo38> I have also once been in a situation where the opponent's used a magic item to extremely slow down my team; I figured out how to use that to my advantage, instead of a disadvantage as they intended it to be
18:27:34 <zzo38> What is *this* called?
18:27:54 <shachaf> zzo38: How did you use it to your advantage?
18:28:45 <zzo38> I fired a flaming projectile at them. (See if you understand. If not, I will continue to tell you anyways.)
18:28:50 <kmc> shachaf: i'm not
18:28:54 <kmc> shachaf: I just know this to be true
18:29:32 <shachaf> zzo38: i'm not sure whether i understand!! go on
18:30:09 <zzo38> It give them more than enough opportunity that all of them will certainly get out of the way, so that they won't get hit.
18:30:10 <Gracenotes> what effect does speed have on projectiles and flaming and adjective-noun association
18:30:28 <zzo38> The building behind them was their hideout and was made of wood.
18:30:47 <zzo38> Therefore they quickly burned themself to death.
18:31:50 <shachaf> Couldn't you have fired a flaming projectile at the building anyway?
18:32:03 <shachaf> I mean, it's not as if they'd've stepped in front of it, presumably.
18:32:43 <zzo38> No; they were in the way and if I did they would have known that it is what I was trying to do and somehow stop it. This way I can take advantage of my slowness in order to trick them.
18:34:49 <Gracenotes> So they thought through your capabilities in much less detail (underestimating) that you did?
18:36:08 <zzo38> Or actually my intention, I suppose, is what they didn't think of because I tricked them into believing it was something else.
18:36:27 <shachaf> zzo38: But if you had been fast, would they have managed to get into the way in time?
18:38:23 <zzo38> shachaf: Possibly; I want to consider their possibility that they have some power which I do not know about. Also, if I cancelled their slowness it would have wasted a spell to dispel their magic; the way I am doing requires not casting any spells, just using an arrow.
18:38:53 <shachaf> zzo38: I mean, if you'd've just not been slowed down in the first place.
18:39:03 <shachaf> The question is whether the slowness was really to your advantage.
18:39:33 <Gracenotes> it makes a much better narrative, at least
18:39:52 <zzo38> I understand that, but but yes it was to my advantage; it ensured that I could effectively trick them. (Otherwise it is unknown what the random variables would have in order that the plan might not end up working.)
18:39:54 <Gracenotes> which is partly what RPG-based games let you do
18:40:50 <zzo38> Yes, this is what I like about RPG.
18:42:11 <zzo38> If they hadn't used magic, I probably would have needed to use magic in order to beat them, but since they did use magic I did not have to.
18:43:41 <zzo38> I could have used magic, but not only might they have countered it but there are saving throws and stuff, and it would use up the spell, and I didn't want to waste it; there is also the factor of false intention so even ignoring these things magic would have been worse anyways.
18:45:52 <zzo38> So in other words, the slowness spell they cast ended up greatly diminishing their chances of winning.
18:46:43 <zzo38> Do you know when Washizu said after every two hanchan only he has the choice to decide to continue or to stop, and Akagi said that stupid move would end up defeating him?
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18:48:26 <zzo38> (This is a part of a story Fukumoto wrote, called "Akagi".)
18:50:44 <zzo38> There may be some other stories with a similar idea to what I described with the slowness, although they might have been tricked into activating the power in the first place. In my case, there was no such trick.
18:50:48 <tswett> how do i evaluate combinators help
18:51:09 <nortti> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/26535.html
18:51:54 <tswett> So in Haskell, I've defined a type representing an expression built out of a certain set of combinators (Apply, Compose, Flip, Pair, Uncurry, WithPair, Fst, Snd, Lft, Rgt, Case, Gimme, Trash, Cancel), and I know what the semantics of each of these combinators ought to be.
18:52:04 <tswett> I'd like to write a function that takes an expression and reduces it.
18:52:21 <tswett> Yep, they're typed nicely.
18:52:51 <Gracenotes> so these combinators are constructors?
18:52:53 <zzo38> (In Akagi's case, it is unknown. He did increase the stakes, which Washizu considered stupid and Washizu's security guards agreed that since Akagi did that, that Washizu is correct in saying that only he has the right to decide when to stop after every two hanchan.)
18:53:43 <Gracenotes> well, you can have an eval function Expr -> ResultType, or Expr -> Reader Env ResultType if you need that
18:53:58 <kmc> nortti: interesting
18:54:06 <tswett> I think Expr a -> a is what I want in this case.
18:54:45 <kmc> when you want things like that, you usually need Expr to be a GADT
18:55:18 <Gracenotes> I take it you've seen this: http://vimeo.com/12208838
18:55:19 <tswett> So, uh, lemme think. There are certain ways of rewriting an expression. I think I want to use non-strict evaluation. So this means finding the topmost possible rewrite and making it, over and over, until there are no more rewrites.
18:56:09 <Gracenotes> do you want to do normal order or also with sharing?
18:56:49 <tswett> I don't think I want to do anything special for sharing.
18:57:06 <tswett> I'll just hope, perhaps falsely, that Haskell will take care of that for me.
18:57:21 <zzo38> I expected it to be a GADT, since you said the types are correct
18:58:23 <Gracenotes> tswett: for a lot of the combinators, how to write it should be clear... sometimes you will need an environment; sometimes you will need both an environment and a store (with mutation)
18:58:38 <tswett> Right, lemme try just diving in.
18:58:56 <Gracenotes> possibly a runtime datatype to be denoted within the environment
19:01:06 <tswett> So here's the algorithm I'd use naively:
19:02:05 <tswett> To evaluate f(x), first check whether it's top-level rewritable; if it is, rewrite it and evaluate it again; otherwise, evaluate f yielding f', then evaluate x yielding x', then evaluate f'(x').
19:02:12 <tswett> But that algorithm will never terminate.
19:02:39 <tswett> I think I need to distinguish between things that are fully reduced and things that aren't fully reduced.
19:02:45 <Gracenotes> evaluating x without calling if is strict evaluation
19:05:46 <Gracenotes> although what you described is good for strict application; evaluating f'(x') means calling f' if it is callable, or giving up if it isn't
19:07:28 <zzo38> A while ago in Dungeons&Dragons game we went to the demon's castle in order to try to beat the demon. I found that it was abandoned, except for a few vampires guarding one of the exits, an invoice for moving their posessions to another castle, and some silverware.
19:07:35 <tswett> Maybe what I want to do is to write a function that performs just one reduction step.
19:08:01 <boily> zzo38: vampires and silverware???
19:08:08 <zzo38> Immediately when I saw this I suspected that they are trying to do a Kansas City Shuffle on us (although at the time, I didn't know what it was called). I still do not know whether or not this is correct.
19:08:27 <zzo38> boily: The vampires were guarding an exit; an entirely different room to the silverware.
19:08:41 <zzo38> But I suppose I can see what you might be getting at...
19:09:50 <Gracenotes> tswett: maybe you might start with a simpler language, like lambda calculus
19:09:52 <zzo38> I suspect they are trying to make us think that they think their vampires can beat us, but this isn't the Kansas City Shuffle I am talking about, and it has nothing to do with the silverware.
19:11:01 <boily> looks like their vampires are different.
19:11:23 <Gracenotes> I dunno. Otherwise, start with eval (Constr ...) env = ..., and recursion is your friend
19:11:28 <zzo38> boily: I don't know because I didn't try using the silverware against them.
19:11:47 <zzo38> (I actually didn't think of that, but even if I did I probably would have tried something else anyways.)
19:12:17 <tswett> I think I did this for Unlambda once.
19:12:51 <zzo38> I ended up keeping the silverware in case we need the metal for something else later on.
19:13:32 <Gracenotes> unlambda also doesn't need an environment; it's a bit pathological
19:13:55 <boily> zzo38: that's what we usually do when we play d&d: loot everything, and I mean *everything*.
19:14:14 <boily> (and with proper creativity, you can cut a steak from just about any random material and/or monster)
19:14:45 <kmc> "error: not all control paths return a value" is a somewhat poor error message for "you shouldn't have a semicolon on the last line of your function"
19:14:59 <Gracenotes> although, not weird; it's how Miranda worked (very enhanced SKI calculus)
19:15:06 <tswett> "I loot every real number." "Sorry, you can only take countably many actions in a finite amount of time."
19:15:41 <kmc> Gracenotes: really? elaborate?
19:15:50 <kmc> is this Miranda the predecessor of Haskell?
19:15:56 <boily> tswett: not a problem. with enough charisma and an infinite line of peasants, you can achieve FTL travel.
19:16:19 <tswett> Does charisma affect the DM?
19:16:24 <shachaf> kmc: rustc errors are not so great right now
19:16:30 <tswett> If I have a charisma of 85, can I become the DM?
19:16:32 <kmc> maybe i should fix it "patches welcome"
19:16:33 <Gracenotes> yes. It took inspiration from SASL in compiling lambda calculus down to combinators
19:16:33 <shachaf> did you see the Y thing i made
19:17:02 <shachaf> i was vaguely surprised that it worked
19:17:19 <boily> tswett: you must bribe them with valuable trinkets and sacred dice.
19:17:53 <kmc> shachaf: no
19:18:34 <shachaf> http://shachaf.net/curry.rs.txt
19:18:45 <Gracenotes> kmc: in addition to SKI, it has B, C, P, U, E, Y... etc.
19:18:48 <shachaf> someone came to #rust asking about how to make it work
19:19:51 <kmc> I wrote the Y combinator in C++ once
19:19:55 <kmc> this is noisier ;P
19:19:58 <kmc> though fewer lines
19:20:39 <zzo38> boily: I rarely loot anything, but do loot these kind of things.
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19:21:06 <shachaf> this is just \f -> (\x -> f (unRec x x)) (\x -> f (unRec x x))
19:21:12 <boily> reminds me, I promised to someone on this channel a long time ago the journals of our quests.
19:21:16 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (unRec x x)) (\x -> f (unRec x x))) (1:)
19:21:22 <kappabot> Not in scope: `unRec'Not in scope: `unRec'
19:21:27 <zzo38> boily: Do you have it?
19:21:47 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (\x -> f (outR x x))) (1:)
19:21:47 <boily> zzo38: nah, at home. I think I have some of them in my inbox...
19:21:51 <kmc> shachaf: I hear @fn may disappear soon anyway
19:21:54 <kappabot> The lambda expression `\ x -> f (L.outR x x)' has one argument,
19:22:29 <shachaf> kmc: what will we do instead!!
19:22:40 <zzo38> Actually as it turns out the number of human characters we had in our party was equal to the number of forks, so I gave them all away so each got one fork, so that they might eat.
19:22:55 <zzo38> But we can use them for other purposes too if it would help to do so.
19:23:03 <tswett> Is it impossible to eat without a fork?
19:23:10 <zzo38> Some of the soldiers have since died so I got their forks back.
19:23:25 <zzo38> tswett: I don't think so, but I would expect they don't want to eat by hand.
19:23:29 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (Rec (\x -> f (outR x x)))) (1:)
19:23:33 <kappabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Rec'
19:23:39 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (InR (\x -> f (outR x x)))) (1:)
19:23:43 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:23:54 <shachaf> > (\f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (InR (\x -> f (outR x x)))) (1:)
19:23:54 <tswett> There, I've implemented everything but Cancel.
19:23:58 <kappabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
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19:26:09 <tswett> Which is the crappy thing to implement, because its semantics are Cancel f = (evaluate 'f g' and wait for g to be applied to some value x, and return x).
19:26:21 <boily> zzo38: I have an interesting sample. would you like the missive to be joyously sent by e-mail?
19:26:43 <boily> (I really can't garantee your understanding, unless you speak a very weird variety of French.)
19:26:58 <zzo38> boily: No; I don't speak French very well at all.
19:27:02 <kmc> shachaf: @~fn maybe? I'm not sure
19:27:56 <boily> quelqu'un ici qui parle français à part moi?
19:28:21 <zzo38> I don't loot everything; in fact I rarely loot money. I also found a place where someone kept everything including the stuff they stole from us; I took nothing except the things they have taken from us.
19:29:47 <zzo38> I am not the kind of thief.
19:35:12 <shachaf> typically i either turn it off entirely or leave it in regular mode
19:36:28 <tswett> So I'm still trying to think how to implement Cancel...
19:37:20 <tswett> One thing you could do is grab the context and let g be that context. But the context has the wrong type; the context could return anything, whereas f expects something of type Bottom.
19:37:48 <tswett> Maybe I should say "continuation" instead of "context".
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19:54:42 <zzo38> What is it called when you write an encrypted message containing many true things but the crucial things are lies, in the expectation that your opponent's will catch you, steal the message (that they thought you were trying to deliver), and hire their team to crack the code...
19:55:24 <Bike> usual counterintelligence practice :p
19:56:22 <zzo38> What is it called when you take this further; you expect that they expect you to do this?
19:56:54 <Bike> a Princess Bride scene
19:57:27 <kmc> speaking of counterintelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bertram was pretty badass
19:57:43 <kmc> incl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bertram#Double_bluff
19:57:47 <boily> you can canary your messages, do classic traffic analysis, then expound on the breaches of information.
19:59:21 <Bike> kmc: that's some surreal shit.
20:02:07 <zzo38> Double bluff? Akagi uses quintuple bluffs.
20:02:40 <Bike> try to keep up, rommel-kun
20:03:44 <zzo38> I do not know if the demon and those who work for him are expecting that I am expecting it to be a Kansas City Shuffle.
20:05:09 <boily> let's consult the Old Wise One...
20:05:12 <metasepia> Okay ... I'm going home to write the "I HATE RUBIK's CUBE HANDBOOK FOR
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20:09:52 <zzo38> Does an anticipated Kansas City Shuffle have a special name?
20:10:51 <kmc> 1,500 tanks fighting in the middle of the desert
20:10:57 <kmc> it's insane to think about
20:11:31 <boily> zzo38: probably a violin scam, but I'm not sure.
20:12:01 <Bike> kmc: have you read "Losing the War" (it's an essay about WWII and being insane)
20:12:08 <zzo38> kmc: Are you insane to think about 1,500 tanks fighting in the middle of the desert?
20:12:16 <kmc> Bike: maybe
20:12:21 <kmc> zzo38: maybe
20:12:28 <Bike> http://leesandlin.com/articles/LosingTheWar.htm
20:12:30 <Bike> it's pretty good.
20:12:49 <Bike> there's a section on war reporters talking about things being "eerie" or "surreal" and such
20:12:55 <zzo38> Am I simultaneously sane and insane?
20:13:13 <boily> zzo38: you are under the illusion that you are zzo38. everything is fine.
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20:13:52 <zzo38> I don't think being under such illusion makes everything to be fine...
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20:28:42 <Fiora> Bike: so like, I like how wikipedia's list of stellar remnants is like
20:28:53 <Fiora> "white dwarf, neutron star, black hole.... EF Eridani B"
20:29:03 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_Eridani it's apparently so unusual that they don't have a name for it
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20:42:06 <boily> `learn eridanipoid is a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants.
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20:42:38 <Bike> you're welcome, astronomers.
20:43:15 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epsilon_Eridani_in_fiction
20:43:45 <Bike> what's this thing made out of exactly
20:44:05 <Bike> it's a twentieth the size of the sun, has no fusion...
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20:45:45 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0001183 maybe this might have it?
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20:47:42 <Fiora> sorry for all the nerding out about astronomy things >_<
20:47:48 <Bike> i wish someone would call /me/ a magnetic cataclysmic binary
20:47:53 <Bike> that's true love
20:48:19 <Fiora> that sounds more like a fat joke
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20:49:16 <Bike> i am not good enough at astrophysics to understand how that could possibly be a fat oke
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20:50:12 <Fiora> well, like, a cataclysmic binary is one where a big star orbits a white dwarf that's sucking off mass
20:50:25 <Fiora> and keeps nova-ing as the mass accretes, then flash-fuses, and repeats, I think?
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20:51:23 <Fiora> so um. I guess it means you're one big star and one small star, and you're exchanging mass, and the small one keeps exploding
20:51:28 <Fiora> I really don't know what this would imply I guess
20:52:07 <Bike> sounds like an exciting thing to be called still!
20:53:17 <boily> “baby, let's exchange mass an go nova”
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21:31:34 <Bike> http://www.cell.com/current-biology/retrieve/pii/S096098221300835X finally biologists speak up on the #drugz #warz
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21:32:59 <kmc> war, uh, yeah, what is it good for, misappropriating public funds
21:33:36 <Bike> that doesn't scan :c
21:33:43 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L2Gve7oh_4
21:38:23 <Bike> i can't decide if the best part of that is sam and max's faces, or the pathetic little shuffly kicks in front of the flag
21:39:03 <Gracenotes> damn it! foiled by having to put -lxxx as the last arguments of gcc/the gcc-compatible clang frontend.. again!
21:41:43 <fizzie> kmc: Thank you for that; now I've got the Cannon Fodder intro song looping in my head. ("war / never been so much fun / ... / go to your brother / kill him with your gun / leave him lying in his uniform / dying in the sun / ...")
21:42:44 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhLRr0HRGI and so on.
21:45:56 <oerjan> <tswett> Which is the crappy thing to implement, because its semantics are Cancel f = (evaluate 'f g' and wait for g to be applied to some value x, and return x). <-- isn't that just callCC
21:46:28 <tswett> oerjan: sounds a lot like it. It's callCC with the type ((a -> Bot) -> Bot) -> a.
21:47:21 <oerjan> so i'd expect you need CPS
21:47:39 <oerjan> (or a Cont monad, which is just indirect CPS)
21:48:05 <oerjan> or possibly just ErrorT
21:48:19 <tswett> Yeah, with Cont, wouldn't r have to be Bot?
21:49:16 <shachaf> what's Foo such that class Functor f => Applicative f where applicative :: Foo f a -> f a
21:49:28 <tswett> callCC :: MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
21:50:51 <oerjan> hm ok not the same type
21:51:24 <tswett> It looks similar to this, however:
21:51:25 <tswett> shift :: MonadDelimitedCont p s m => p b -> ((m a -> m b) -> m b) -> m a
21:52:59 <oerjan> shachaf: strč prst skrz krk
21:54:41 <tswett> No, I don't think I could. There's the same problem again: a has to be Bot, so you can't return anything through it except for Bot.
21:55:05 <oerjan> shachaf: you are lost in a maze of unpronouncable syllables. dvořák is here.
21:55:43 <Bike> Fiora: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2013.03.057 some jellyfish have neural organization without cephalization
21:56:36 <tswett> Hm. I can make Bot a type variable instead of a constant.
21:57:09 <oerjan> tswett: what about Bot = forall a. a
21:57:37 <tswett> oerjan: you still can't return anything through it, because you can't convert stuff to forall a. a.
21:58:07 <tswett> Can you write id using only compose and flip?
21:58:11 <oerjan> i suppose you should ask someone who actually knows about typed continuation stuff hth
21:58:12 <shachaf> help what's the problem at hand
21:58:21 <shachaf> not that i know about typed continuations
21:58:29 <shachaf> what's the thing you're trying to do
21:58:47 <kappabot> Perhaps you meant `const' (imported from Prelude)
21:58:51 <shachaf> :t Control.Monad.Cont.cont
21:58:53 <kappabot> Couldn't find qualified module.
21:58:54 <oerjan> tswett: flip . flip hth
21:59:01 <shachaf> cont :: forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a
21:59:06 <kappabot> forall a b c. (b -> a -> c) -> b -> a -> c
21:59:21 <tswett> Mm, its type isn't general enough.
21:59:30 <shachaf> your type isn't general enough :'(
21:59:31 <tswett> shachaf: well, uh, I have this thing, and I'm trying to make it work.
22:00:00 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/91160
22:00:14 <tswett> I know, some of those equations are kind of atrocious.
22:00:26 <tswett> Well, no. These equations are pretty nice.
22:00:32 <tswett> Some of my *old* equations were pretty atrocious.
22:00:35 <tswett> "step (Apply (Apply Uncurry f) (Apply (Apply Pair x) y)) = Just (Apply (Apply f x) y)"
22:00:39 <oerjan> tswett: i am not sure if you can construct something that takes only one argument
22:00:51 <tswett> I'll just add id as another combinator.
22:02:11 <tswett> So, Cancel is supposed to pretty much be callCC.
22:02:30 <tswett> "Apply Cancel (Apply (Apply Flip Id) Gimme)" should eventually reduce to Gimme.
22:02:52 <tswett> shachaf: does not exist?
22:02:58 <shachaf> double negation elimination hth
22:03:04 <tswett> Yes, that's exactly what it is.
22:03:10 <shachaf> that's not the same as callcc
22:03:13 <Bike> directed shotgun proteomics
22:03:15 <shachaf> (though you can write one in terms of the other)
22:03:25 <tswett> So yeah. I'm trying to figure out how to write double negation elimination.
22:04:36 <oerjan> tswett: one point is that you don't want the actual underlying type to be a -> Bot, since that's impossible
22:04:47 <oerjan> you want a -> m Bot or something
22:05:14 <shachaf> oerjan: well, this isn't really an "underlying type"
22:05:33 <tswett> So "step (Apply Cancel f)" should be all like "hey dudes, what's the continuation?", and then, like, it ought to just reify the continuation and make Apply f g be the ultimate result, aye?
22:05:34 <shachaf> i mean, it's just the argument to the gadt. it's not "contained in"" the gadt
22:05:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i understood his combinators were typed.
22:06:17 <tswett> The combinators are indeed typed, though the types currently have nothing to do with any underlying representations.
22:07:29 <tswett> Y'all can see me now 'cause you don't see with your eye; you perceive with your mind. HTH
22:07:37 <tswett> All right, what were we doing?
22:08:26 <Bike> if this just descended into singing gorillaz off-key i'd be ok with that.
22:08:26 <tswett> I could have something that says Coerce :: Expr a -> Expr b.
22:08:36 <tswett> Is it possible to rap off-key?
22:08:41 <Gracenotes> everyone has perfect pitch on the internet
22:08:48 <Bike> you fucking watch me, i'll mess it up somehow
22:09:23 <tswett> But no, uh, continuations.
22:10:22 <tswett> step (Apply Cancel f) cont = Just (Apply f cont)??????????
22:10:53 <oerjan> tswett: i don't see how you can implement your g as something not containing a continuation
22:10:59 <shachaf> i m not quite sure what you 're after here
22:11:03 <tswett> Yeah, it's certainly going to have a continuation.
22:11:05 <Bike> containuiation
22:11:17 <tswett> I'm pretty definitely after something involving continuations.
22:11:59 <tswett> The question is how to implement this double negation elimination combinator, presumably using continuations.
22:14:17 <shachaf> kmc: i keep thinking rusti is a swiss potato dish
22:14:21 <tswett> Okay, uhh. So we have Apply Cancel (Apply (Apply Flip Id) Gimme). So f = Apply (Apply Flip Id) Gimme, and the continuation is the identity function. So we can just reduce Apply f Id, and there we go.
22:14:48 <tswett> So apparently the continuation needs to be given as an Expr, not as a function.
22:14:54 <shachaf> oerjan: there's a rust-evaluating bot in #rust called rusti hth
22:14:55 <kmc> 15:14 < strcat> rusti: let b = 5 as bool; (b, b == true)
22:14:55 <kmc> 15:14 -rusti:#rust- (true, false)
22:15:04 <kmc> best boolean type ever
22:15:08 <tswett> Or I guess it could be given as a function, as long as we can somehow turn that function into an Expr.
22:15:12 <kmc> shachaf: why would it be a swiss potato dish
22:15:14 <shachaf> km: is it unsafecoercing.........................
22:15:23 <oerjan> tswett: rødgrød med fløde you uneducated dolt
22:15:24 <kmc> not exactly
22:15:24 <shachaf> kmc: because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rösti
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22:15:54 <Gracenotes> let's use integer equality on booleans, what could go wrong
22:16:11 <shachaf> kmc: rösti is delicious hth
22:16:11 <tswett> Let's say that every type is a subtype of Bool.
22:16:14 <Gracenotes> let's coerce numeric types, what could go wrong
22:16:17 <shachaf> oerjan can confirm (rightjan?)
22:16:26 <kmc> google wants to translate rødgrød as rødgrød, I guess that's fair
22:16:53 <Bike> does rusti actually use notices
22:17:06 <Bike> most shocking part of that exchange imo
22:17:09 <oerjan> tswett: oh i'm thinking, your continuation for a type a should be a -> Expr, since you are doing steps
22:17:09 <shachaf> because rusti is a cool bot who follows the spec
22:17:21 <shachaf> i wish i was as cool as rusti
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22:17:44 <Bike> segfaulting could be kinda rough yeah
22:17:45 <oerjan> tswett: um your step function needs to include the _next_ continuation in its result as well
22:17:54 <shachaf> kmc: It looks like it is pretty much unsafeCoercing?
22:18:23 <oerjan> otherwise you wouldn't know how do do the next step...
22:19:34 <shachaf> oerjan: do you mind if i use ø to mean the empty set
22:19:49 <shachaf> and they look p. much the same
22:21:17 <shachaf> why do people upvote the wrong answers on stack overflow
22:21:49 <shachaf> why do i have 20 points for answering "is putstrln thread-safe" with "yes"
22:22:04 <Bike> god is real and hates you, hth.
22:22:29 <Bike> also abu ghraib got military assaulted and a bunch of guys are out now.
22:22:37 <oerjan> shachaf: it's been too long since i tasted rösti, i've forgotten
22:24:56 <shachaf> oerjan: wow that's not v. swiss of you
22:24:57 <oerjan> tswett: step (Cancel f, cont) = Just (Apply f (ContE cont), cont) or something
22:25:07 <oerjan> i am indeed not very swiss
22:26:42 <shachaf> oerjan: did you remember that you were swiss
22:26:54 <oerjan> i think the tricky part is what step (Apply (ContE cont) ...) should return
22:27:11 <shachaf> oerjan: you remind me of swiss cheese hth
22:27:15 <shachaf> not that that's use in rösti
22:27:56 <oerjan> that's the step that requires changing the next step continuation.
22:28:50 <oerjan> shachaf: are you saying i am a very holy person?
22:31:04 <shachaf> I said it in Hebrew, I said it in Dutch, / I said it in German and Greek, / But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) / That English is what you speak.
22:31:30 <shachaf> (and maybe other languages?? what languages do you speak)
22:31:40 <shachaf> (are any of them hebrew/dutch/german/greek)
22:31:51 <shachaf> (i think if you speak english+german you speak dutch automatically)
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22:38:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i can do a little german
22:38:45 <shachaf> how much on a scale of 1 to 13
22:38:52 <oerjan> from there to pronouncing dutch is another galaxy.
22:39:25 <shachaf> yes but i have no evidence you know how to pronounce english either
22:39:43 <oerjan> well i had 4 years (i think) of german in school. i just haven't used it much since.
22:40:19 <oerjan> (also one year of french)
22:40:21 <shachaf> hm i had a few years of english in school
22:40:46 <shachaf> all before grade 6 though...............
22:41:38 <oerjan> shachaf: i have been known to be understood vocally by native english speakers.
22:42:22 <oerjan> including giving a few presentations
22:42:27 <shachaf> how vocally are we talkin'
22:42:39 <shachaf> I REALLY UNDERSTAND THIS OERJAN FELLOW 100%
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22:58:12 <olsner> why do your ears hurt?
22:58:27 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:00:09 <oerjan> BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SHOUTING TOO VOCALLY HTH
23:00:22 <olsner> STOP LISTENING TO THEM HTH
23:01:41 <olsner> I think you mean *un*possible
23:22:12 <Bike> http://nsaunders.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/interestingly-the-sentence-adverbs-of-pubmed-central/ btw this is great
23:23:53 <Fiora> http://nsaunders.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/adverbsopencloud20.png?w=300&h=300 wow
23:23:59 <Fiora> this article is great, thanks~
23:25:03 <Fiora> "bmc immunology" is the most interesting journal
23:25:12 <Fiora> "Nature" has the most remarkable results
23:25:24 <Fiora> "plos med" and "bioinformatics" are the most unfortunate
23:26:52 <Fiora> Grossly.... Histologically... Immunohistochemically... Ultrastructurally...
23:27:04 <Fiora> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3173291/ help I am laughing at abstracts of papers I can't understand
23:28:07 <Fiora> bike what have you dooone
23:28:08 <Bike> wow, that's just not good writing.
23:28:57 <Bike> «You might imagine that very long adverbs stand a good chance of being ugly. Let’s find the longest: "electronmicroscopically". You'd be correct.»
23:30:38 <shachaf> that's too long for a double dactyl :'(
23:31:08 <Bike> how about ethnopharmacologically
23:31:28 <Fiora> what does that even mean @_@
23:31:47 <Bike> probably related to ethnomedicine
23:32:00 <Bike> which is where you ask people which plants they use to cure colds
23:33:02 <oerjan> there ethno medicine for cold
23:33:14 <Bike> as in ethnology
23:34:18 <Bike> the study of cultures, which frequently means ethnic groups
23:36:47 <Bike> i have a little book on ethnomedicine, it's pretty cool, they lived with dominicans (as in dominica, not the dominican republic) for a while
23:37:15 <Bike> one of the "traditional healers" was a guy who'd gotten a book on identifying plants in high school and thought it would be neat do try and cure diseases like his grandparents did
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23:58:55 <Bike> oerjan: oh, duh, you were right, it's an alternating series and the signs only cancel for squares