00:02:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:03:24 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:08:53 @oeis 6,90,945,9450,93555 00:08:54 Denominators of zeta(2n)/Pi^(2n). 00:08:54 [6,90,945,9450,93555,638512875,18243225,325641566250,38979295480125,15313294... 00:29:12 you know a misspelling is good when it makes you forget the standard spelling for a little while 00:33:30 -!- tertu has joined. 00:37:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:46:48 Indubitaly. 00:47:33 monster 00:48:18 In my case, "Excersizes" 00:50:32 eksirsighzez! 00:51:42 relatedly a friend was talking about a video game she was playing and mispelled "dropship" as "dorpship" and now neither of us can think of it any other way 00:51:49 and she's now talking all about flying around her dorpship 00:52:14 now i wish i had a dorpship, gee thanks 00:53:12 and like every single time I type it I giggle because "dorpship" 01:06:30 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:19:28 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6055/521.abstract "a refreshingly honest first/last authorship statement" 01:20:21 what about all the other authorships 01:21:00 btw would you really authorship Robert W. Meredith and William J. Murphy 01:21:57 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:28:18 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 01:29:17 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to nisstyre. 01:34:15 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:41:53 Mmm maybe I'm going to have the return type be ContT (Expr bot bot) Maybe (Expr bot a). 01:44:04 Of Hebrew, Dutch, German, and Greek, German is best the language I speak. 01:44:31 is that a bottom I spot 01:44:48 It is bottom, as in the sense of the... uh, which one. 01:45:17 Linear multiplicative falsity. 01:45:19 the caudal type 01:45:27 Gracenotes: imo memorize the hunting of the snark hth 01:45:36 Bike: imo you too 01:46:05 Np 01:46:11 too many acronyms, I stab all of you in the face over the internet 01:46:19 zomg the hunting of the snark is about mnoqy???? 01:46:24 Gracenotes: ok gl hth 01:46:49 "It's excessively awkward to mention it now-- 01:46:49 As I think I've already remarked." 01:46:49 And the man they called "Hi!" replied, with a sigh, 01:46:49 "I informed you the day we embarked. 01:46:56 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:47:03 He would answer to "Hi!" or to any loud cry, 01:47:03 Such as "Fry me!" or "Fritter my wig!" 01:47:10 how many words is the book? 01:47:11 Fry me! 01:47:13 Is that the poem that has the thing about cabbages and kings? 01:47:18 it's not really a book 01:47:27 tswett: indeed 01:47:31 tswett: no, that's The Walrus and the Carpenter 01:47:35 v. different 01:47:37 Oh yeah. 01:47:41 (same author, though) 01:47:48 oh.. hm. thought it was an appendix 01:48:06 neither one was an appendix 01:48:21 - ´ - ´ - ´ - ´ / - ´ - ´ - ´ hth 01:49:12 h t h t h t h t / h t h t h t hth 01:50:13 in any case, I wasn't there to experience the original formats in which the poems/books/etc. were released 01:50:27 hhtthtthtttthhhhhhthhthththttthttthtttththhthttthhtttthttthhth 01:50:35 (everyone in this channel should instantly recognize that sequence) 01:50:55 ah. no, I was a bit confused, in the printing I read Jabberwocky was an appendix to the Snark 01:51:01 i refuse to recognize that sequence 01:51:06 @oeis 1,1,0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1 01:51:15 that makes a bit more sense at least 01:51:21 Expansion of Pi in base 2 (or, binary expansion of Pi). 01:51:21 [1,1,0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0... 01:51:22 Fiora: http://arxiv.org/abs/1307.5899 a thing 01:51:30 why would i recognize that, imo 01:51:30 yeahwhatever 01:51:34 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:51:55 imo why would it recognize you 01:52:10 pi is "too cool for that" 01:52:14 Bike: because you've seen it 888,888 times before. 01:52:21 That's an ordered pair. 01:52:26 no i havent 01:52:32 Yes you have, hth. 01:52:33 at some point this channel is going to devolve into 'no u' 'no u' 'no u' 'no u' 01:52:40 (Yes, go ahead, be ironic) 01:52:45 Gracenotes: no it isn't! 01:52:52 sssh. 01:52:54 I'm reasonably certain it won't, but I could be convinced that I'm wrong! 01:53:29 I say, good sir 01:53:57 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 01:54:03 Trying to port GHC over to a platform without libc 01:54:29 And compiling to LLVM bitcode (no native stuff allowed) 01:54:30 is fun 01:55:00 hey, Bike, tell me about adjunctions.............between groups!! 01:55:08 i don't know shit about adjunctions 01:56:15 Bike: well an adjunction is a pair of functions "i.e. group homomorphisms in this case" 01:56:24 such that when you compose them one way you get a monad 01:56:33 and actually you get a monad the other way too "because groups are weird hth" 01:57:00 i'm not sure this explanation is going to h anything at all 01:57:21 well i'd give you a serious explanation but i d. you care 01:57:23 You're not sure t explanation is going to h anything at all hth. 01:57:34 what's this explanation then 01:57:36 but maybe if i talk t. myself i'll figure it out 01:57:39 Am I doing t right h? 01:58:03 ok let's see 01:58:16 Bike: the problem is that there are "like a billion definitions of" adjunctions 01:58:20 which one should i pick 01:58:58 probably the best one for your purposes. 01:59:09 which one is that 01:59:10 let's say you have two groups 01:59:15 help what letters do you use for groups 01:59:27 i can't say G and H because the functor are going to be called F and G............. 01:59:32 ok two groups C and D 02:00:03 and two homomorphisms F : D -> C, G : C -> D 02:00:27 so we know that G . F is an inner automorphism at least 02:00:35 (in D) 02:01:02 ok ok let's see 02:01:06 Gracenotes can help me imo 02:02:55 Hm. Maybe I don't want ContT Maybe; maybe I want MaybeT Cont. 02:03:14 (Now someone will say "maybe MaybeT Maybe hth") 02:03:27 livin the category life 02:03:28 no, why would anyone say that. 02:03:34 So what's the idea behind the two? 02:03:37 ok so we have eps : FG -> 1_C and eta : 1_D -> GF 02:03:40 Bike: maybe MaybeT Maybe hth. 02:03:52 tswett..................................................................................... . 02:04:05 -!- kmc has set topic: Mr. Burbujas Fan Club | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 02:04:20 mister who now 02:04:21 shachaf: … hth? 02:04:35 …………………………………………………………………………. 02:04:36 kmc: hey, can i be in the Mr. Burbujas Fan Club 02:04:50 http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/assets_c/2009/08/rsz_1intact-thumb-500x374.jpg 02:04:55 shachaf: uh you already are, see /topic 02:05:07 All right, uh, what was I doing. 02:05:41 kmc: oh 02:05:47 thx 02:05:56 wow i'm definitely in that fan club 02:06:14 Bike: have you even seen the new mr burbujas though 02:06:21 the new one is p. scary 02:06:26 kmc do you have a picture!!!! 02:06:41 of me? 02:06:42 oh 02:06:46 of Mr Burbujas 2.0 02:06:54 not a good one 02:07:33 you can kind of see him here to the right of the door http://s3-media4.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/cxGNWxXViuddaSWubHoL6Q/l.jpg 02:07:40 as your attorney i advise you to go take a good picture of Mr Burbujas 2.0 02:07:40 Oh, it must be Burbujas as in /buɾˈbuxas/. 02:07:48 anthropomorphic washing machine with a three-toothed lamprey mouth and a top hat 02:11:33 kmc: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaseysmith/7218024116/sizes/l/ 02:11:43 kaseysmith++ 02:13:37 thanks 02:13:40 how did you find 02:13:44 flickr search 02:13:47 -!- dessos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:13:56 help how do I cross-compile ghc to a potato 02:14:06 The Potato Has Landed 02:14:57 ok so as i was saying, we have two natural transformations, eps : FG -> 1 and eta : 1 -> GF 02:16:07 which means that for x : D, eta*x = GF(x)*eta 02:16:49 wait does that whole "deal" still work 02:16:51 yes it does 02:16:55 so eta : D and eps : C 02:17:03 is what i should have said 02:17:25 and for x : C, eps*FG(x) = x*eps 02:17:36 and then there are the laws 02:18:16 wait none of what i said makes any sense whatsoever 02:18:30 ok maybe i should actually work this out for myself 02:18:32 (or make Bike do it) 02:18:37 nope 02:18:43 uh, you can't refuse 02:18:54 what am i paying you for 02:19:47 this photograph http://whatsinjohnsfreezer.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/creepy-proboscis-1.jpg 02:19:50 oh, no, what i said makes perfect sense 02:22:29 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:23:29 Bike: oh, maybe the hom-set definition would be way simpler here 02:23:37 Maybe 02:25:35 hm, what's the math channel on freenode and does it suck 02:25:47 ##math and p. much 02:25:54 shit 02:26:25 have just joined it 02:26:44 you should join too 02:27:14 fine 02:27:50 have you considered that one-oobjec 02:27:57 have you considered that one-object categories are weird 02:28:08 aren't monoids one-object categories 02:28:08 it's like trying to put together a puzzle where any piece fits any other piece 02:28:13 yes, exactly 02:28:26 as well as groups and all those other "normal math things" 02:29:04 right 02:29:21 if history is any indication those things are "pretty weird" 02:29:35 Bike: oooh. that article looks interesting 02:30:10 " Perf. comparisons with in-order complete binary implicit trees makes me (and caches) cry :'(" was the comment with the link 02:30:17 i don't even know what "perf" stands for here man 02:30:43 Hum de hum what the hell am I doing de dum. I'm writing this thing that was originally Expr bot a -> Maybe (Expr bot a) but is slowly getting more and more complicated for some reason. 02:30:58 Bike: probably "perfluorocarbon". 02:31:12 Probably 02:33:38 ok so we have a natural isomorphism phi : C(F-,-) ~> D(-,G-) 02:33:47 maybe that should be written <~> 02:34:55 btw every function is either linear or exponential 02:35:18 ashdfas. 02:36:16 anyway so both of those functors are what, : D^op x C -> Set? or what 02:36:53 that doesn't make sense....help 02:37:27 Bike: maybe try efnet #math 02:37:33 monochrom is in there so how bad can it be 02:37:34 eh 02:37:36 (#haskell joke) 02:37:48 but, really, monochrom is great 02:37:51 i was just asking because i was going off topic explaining lambda calculus, and thought i would be better off talking elsewhere 02:37:55 but that's over now 02:38:16 oh no 02:38:25 every channel I'm in is super 02:38:37 necessary and sufficient, surely 02:38:38 How might we make in Haskell that it is a type error to use a value if it specifies something that is no longer open or hasn't been created yet? Might existential quantification help? 02:38:54 you make a good case, Gracenotes 02:40:41 zzo38: Doesn't pigworker have some papers on that kind of thing? 02:40:42 I am practically a lawyer 02:40:46 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 02:40:59 IAAL 02:41:00 like https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/Kleisli.pdf 02:41:04 wow i said something really dumb didn't i 02:41:10 or http://strictlypositive.org/winging-jpgs/ 02:41:10 :-( 02:41:12 one of those things 02:41:19 o well 02:41:23 Bike: where?? 02:41:27 in #math 02:41:28 # 02:41:31 ########## 02:41:32 oh i don't read that 02:41:39 good choice 02:41:52 shachaf: I don't know about "pigworker". But I thought of somehow using new type variables for each object but sharing a class and use something which makes it so that it has to match the type variable used somewheres else 02:42:02 I don't know exactly how to work such thing, though. 02:42:03 oh you said x/(1-x) was nearly linear? 02:42:09 yeah 02:42:10 bad 02:42:17 that's ok it p. much is 02:42:19 "thanks for checking" 02:42:36 it's not 02:42:55 no look http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=y%3Dx%2F(1-x) 02:43:02 that looks like a line to me 02:43:20 you're very mean. 02:43:37 sry that was meant to be the opposite of mean 02:43:46 not quite sure how 02:43:54 maybe agreeing with people is unmean?? 02:44:42 I think that's a very good definition of unmean 02:45:01 Gracenotes: did you finish that book 02:45:16 -!- carado has joined. 02:45:17 Bike: it's ok 02:45:19 @hug Bike 02:45:19 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug 02:45:32 I think you can agree or disagree if you want to it is OK. 02:46:04 which book? probably a bit 02:46:12 johnstone 02:46:55 I have a part or two to go 02:47:37 ok maybe i gotta understand comma categories 02:48:04 * tswett decides to drop the Maybe. 02:48:53 19:48 What did Riastradh mean yesterday when he said: "Actually, there are a lot of 'factorization challenges' where you can win a lot more than 200,000 USD if you manage to factor a 2048-bit RSA modulus, but you might have to watch out for the cops if you enter and win these challenges." 02:48:58 19:48 I don't think the cops will bust you because you solve a challenge, you get cash and you have an opportunity to create a new cryptographic algorithm and get famous. 02:49:09 that's mafingre etc. of pastebin.com challenge fame 02:49:10 lol. 02:49:15 that's kind of adorable. 02:49:37 I assume dlackili is the person we're ridiculing, correct? 02:50:02 do we have to ridicule people to enjoy what they say 02:50:04 imo no 02:50:18 I assume dlackili is the person we're enjoying, correct? 02:50:28 i ain't enjoying nothing 02:50:45 ok Bike tell me about hom functors 02:51:17 well, when a daddy kleisi and a daddy kleisi love each other very much 02:51:19 Bike: btw 1 + x + x² + x³ + ... is the definition of a list 02:51:26 and, like, zippers and stuff, man 02:51:46 why are you saying this thing that you are saying 02:52:01 because you were talking about it in the other channel 02:52:20 and it's p. good and also you never learned about "zippers and stuff did yoU"" 02:53:18 anyway 02:53:25 i think F : D^op -> C^op 02:53:51 So C(F-,-) : D^op × C -> Set 02:54:05 and D(-,G-) : D^op × C -> Set 02:54:09 s/S/s/ 02:54:11 er 02:54:17 that was correcting the "So" not the "Set" 02:54:32 anyway does that sounds right y/n 02:55:09 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 02:58:25 -!- Bike_ has joined. 02:58:44 19:58 -!- dlackili [dcfdcefc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.253.206.252] has joined ##math 02:58:47 19:58 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined ##math 02:59:28 he's still on my /ignore probably 02:59:44 hasn't talked yet 03:00:58 Bike_: what about 1 03:00:59 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 03:00:59 checkmate 03:01:02 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 03:01:21 empty product, as you know 03:01:25 why do you say things like this 03:01:58 i'm an empty product :'( 03:02:16 > foldl * [] 03:02:20 Couldn't match expected type `(a0 -> b0 -> a0) -> a0 -> [b0] -> a0' 03:02:20 ... 03:02:26 w/e 03:02:29 > product [] 03:02:33 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 03:02:36 > product [] 03:02:40 1 03:02:43 good bot 03:02:55 empty product of society 03:03:08 you have to provide an identity to folds, huh 03:03:23 yes 03:03:27 this isn't perl 6 03:03:42 (in perl 6 the fold operator decides whether to do foldr or foldl based on the associativity of the thing you're folding) 03:04:48 what does associativity have to do with it 03:05:04 associativity/infixity/whatever 03:05:22 what 03:05:24 oh nevermind 03:05:42 as in whether a*b*c means a*(b*c) or (a*b)*c 03:05:51 yes 03:09:02 -!- seraph has joined. 03:16:28 -!- seraph has quit (Quit: irc2go). 03:20:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gnot). 03:27:19 Bike: why am i so bad at categories hth :'( 03:29:09 Can you make a better 8x8 graphic for a German "Ss" ligature? 03:29:28 You know, I just realized that whenever you evaluate a Cancel, since the entire expression is subverted, the evaluation order's going to go weird, too. 03:29:49 that's, like, how continuations work, man 03:30:02 My feeble mind cannot handle continuations. 03:31:07 you;re in good company 03:34:47 I'm going to use Either instead. 03:35:08 shachaf: categories seem hard!!! 03:35:18 Bike: p. sure they're not 03:35:33 well why else would you be so bad at them 03:35:38 it's, like, simple deduction, man. 03:35:44 maybe i'm bad at easy things :'( 03:35:48 like monoids :'( 03:37:32 A monoid is kind of like a set equipped with an associative operator with identity. 03:38:05 @quote monoid 03:38:05 gwern says: [regarding the naming of Monoids] we will call them CuteFluffableThings, since you can put more fluff into them, but no one would remove fluff from a cute thing 03:38:14 @quote monoid 03:38:15 PhilipWadler says: I'm delighted to learn that "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors"---anyone know where I can find a good tutorial? 03:38:19 @quote monoid 03:38:19 PhilipWadler says: I'm delighted to learn that "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors"---anyone know where I can find a good tutorial? 03:38:21 @quote monoid 03:38:21 PhilipWadler says: I'm delighted to learn that "a monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors"---anyone know where I can find a good tutorial? 03:38:27 eff this 03:38:28 bad quotes..............................................a 03:38:37 oh, this is kappabot 03:38:38 that's why 03:39:25 I'm pretty sure that "monoid in the category of endofunctors" is nothing more than a really terse way of stating the definition of a monad, so there isn't actually any insight there. 03:39:48 In #haskell it's mostly a way of being annoying. 03:39:49 what are we effing 03:39:51 is it quotespam 03:39:56 You may as well just say "a monad is a fizheuer zieheuer", where "fizheuer zieheuer" is defined as "monad". 03:40:17 hey there's a kmc quote just like that but contextualized differently. 03:40:21 fuck this imo 03:41:08 kmc: sorry :'( 03:41:26 i'm getting a type error help 03:42:58 * kmc goes back to reading book 03:43:08 which book? 03:43:13 the one you lent to me 03:43:28 oh 03:43:48 maybe i should make a tree of books 03:43:51 Huh. Apparently \(Apply f x) -> (f, x) is a type error. Now that I think of it, that really couldn't possibly not be a type error. 03:44:06 It would be an existential type if it were typeable. 03:44:20 "if you liked X and didn't like Y, you might like Z" 03:44:39 that would be kinda cool. 03:44:57 'After you have sampled thousands of uses of the word "Tao", you might try your hand at being clever and framing one single definition to cover this whole multitude of cases. 03:45:00 But even if you succeed, how utterly empty your definition will be to those who have not had your concrete experience of actually living through this philosophy!' 03:45:03 apropos quote imo 03:45:11 shachaf: It's like NETFLIX but for BOOKS! 03:45:36 well except it would all be based on my recommendations personally 03:45:39 hey amazon is great 03:45:40 r 03:45:47 at making me spend money i haven't earned 03:45:48 :( 03:45:55 yeah... r. pretty good, huh 03:46:06 Found in an actual dotfile: set visualbell " shut the fuck up 03:46:15 rip in peace vim 03:46:15 lol 03:50:24 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:54:40 help what is going on in ##crypto 03:55:14 rajdhskdsf: You came in here yesterday, with the same IP under a diff name 03:55:20 lol 03:55:38 the challenger is challenged 03:56:47 a room full of sockpuppet dissociated identities, challenging each other to break weird codes 03:56:49 stupid pkd future 03:57:02 pkd? 03:57:13 philip k dick 03:57:28 predicted the internet age, by being high and schizophrenic 03:57:28 kmc: what if rajdhskdsf is dlackili's sockpuppet 03:57:45 an excuse to give their challenges to someone 03:57:47 in-channel 03:57:49 what if we are all zzo38's sockpuppet 03:58:00 Wooooo 03:58:13 I think I've successfully implemented my linear reducer thinger. 03:58:13 zzo38: Are you a sockpuppet? 04:01:05 ##crypto: best channel? 04:01:27 "if you can solve this pastebin, you're obviously not a sockpuppet" 04:06:20 -!- Bike_ has joined. 04:09:19 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:09:23 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 04:13:03 -!- Bike_ has joined. 04:13:21 Bike_: What's with your ISP? 04:13:46 crappy boonies connection dies every time the phone is picked up, i apologize 04:14:30 -!- douglass has joined. 04:14:36 maybe you should run your irc client on a server 04:14:37 hi douglass 04:14:53 hi 04:15:33 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:15:45 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 04:20:20 Bike: you're on dialup? 04:20:28 no, which just makes it surreal. 04:20:34 ... 04:20:35 DSL? 04:20:50 proooobably. 04:21:28 Bike: they have those things that you're supposed to plug into phones when you're using dsl, don't they? do you use those things....... . 04:21:56 look i'm not good with computers ok 04:21:57 do you know the horrors of using vim in compatible mode? 04:22:13 I don't know how I could live like that for so long. like, a week. 04:24:36 do what shachaf says 04:24:58 shachaf: woah running a client ON a server? this is like inception 04:25:20 endoclient 04:26:14 REST is full of endoclients 04:27:04 21:26 dlackili: dump all you know right here. 04:27:11 21:27 dlackili: dump all your knowledge right here. 04:27:25 imo this sockpuppet theory seems more and more likely 04:28:17 knowledge dump in constant time. 1. Reflexivity 2. QED 04:28:18 even with dlackili: ok. not its official: you know nothing about what you are talking about 04:28:44 Oh, maybe not. 04:28:49 * shachaf wasn't following closely. 04:28:52 for sure, I am not in any such silly channels having silly conversations 04:29:38 So there are two common strategies for making a thing you did seem impressive. One is to say that it was very hard (because doing hard things is impressive), and the other is to say that it was very easy (because if *that* was easy for you, who knows what you could do when you really put your mind to it!). 04:33:21 so I think dlackili is trolling the channel and rajdhskdsf is trolling dlackili 04:33:56 whom are you trolling 04:34:13 ask not for whom the bell trolls 04:42:00 -!- mnoqy has joined. 04:49:23 hm... I've forgotten whether I'm in a chroot or not 04:49:47 pkd goes a-hacking 04:50:01 will Ctrl+D exit the chroot, or kill my terminal? 04:50:03 dispatching rescue team 04:50:33 now i want a script called `ubik' that just tells you if you're chrooted 04:51:27 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:53:03 there's a windows program called redpill.exe that tells you if you're in a VM 04:53:08 ubik is a m. better reference though 04:53:24 i haven't read the book in forever, what did the spray actually do 04:53:30 made stuff rotten or unrotted it, i forget 04:53:54 unrotted it 04:54:28 it wasn't always a spray though 04:54:32 it's advertised as a "reality support" 04:55:09 so `ubik' ought to like, tell you you're in a chroot, but also make the chroot harder to break out of, or something 04:57:03 so, yes, /etc/debian_chroot. woo. 05:04:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:35:14 "The typical keyboard layout used in the United Kingdom features separate keys for vertical bar and broken bar; however, typically on Windows PCs the vertical bar key produces a broken-bar symbol." :psyduck: 05:36:49 -!- Yoel has joined. 05:37:17 nobody seems to know why the broken bar glyph even exists 05:37:31 but it has its own codepoint in Unicode and indeed ISO-8859-1 05:38:10 ¦? 05:38:35 -!- Yoel has quit (Client Quit). 05:39:10 yes 05:39:39 it's so that i can make this face: ¦:| 05:40:00 oh 05:40:01 kmc: Remember whe | used to be rendered as ¦? 05:40:07 kind of 05:40:18 good times, man 05:40:29 i was pretty young at the time 05:41:20 so was i 05:41:29 (which makes sense, i suppose) 05:41:36 remember when keyboards had open-apple and closed-apple 05:41:41 It's still rendered like that on my keyboard 05:41:46 and swedish campground symbol 05:41:47 What font do keyboards use? 05:42:02 Wingdings 05:42:19 dongbongs 05:48:25 You could use such "redpill.exe" and "ubik" and whatever, improve the VM software so that the program running in VM won't check! 05:50:03 hi zzo38 05:50:53 i've been assuming that ¦ is used for something since they gave it its own altgr 05:51:06 zzo38: What do you mean? 05:52:05 http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/latin1/ascii-hist.html 05:52:30 Bike: ¦ is used by shells to make a pipeline that'll immediately cause a "broken bar" SIGPIPE signal when anything is written to. (It's not terribly useful.) ((This is not terribly true.)) 05:52:36 shachaf: Make a VM software so that any program running in the VM won't run differently than one that isn't. 05:52:53 `quote zzo38 Make 05:53:01 No output. 05:53:05 `quote zzo38 octopus 05:53:07 No output. 05:53:08 «The left and right square brackets [] were proposed for inclusion because of their "high use in ALGOL" (in conjunction with arrays) and for being "useful for human-to-human communication".» i too am useful to human communication 05:53:16 `quote zzo38 sandwich 05:53:18 No output. 05:53:20 help 05:53:22 shachaf: Is that the proper syntax for quote don't you have to use a regular expression? 05:54:04 Oh, I thought it was case-insensitive, but on second thought that's lambdabot. 05:54:06 `quote Octopus 05:54:07 185) Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 214) ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m 05:54:31 Wait, 214 has "octopu -- oh. 05:54:38 OK, I really got it mixed up with lambdabot. :-( 05:54:47 `quote zzo38.*Make 05:54:49 182) Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly. \ 186) I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from 05:55:03 Fine. And it's case-sensitive too. 05:55:06 «Proposed as "reverse division" operator and for use in two-character sequences for logical operators. » christ, they fucked that one up 05:56:02 Bike: MATLAB(/Octave) still uses it as a reverse division. 05:56:08 octave:2> 2\1 05:56:08 ans = 0.50000 05:56:36 wow. 05:56:47 Bike: hey you know what's "even cooler than" limits and adjunctions 05:56:53 what 05:57:12 like, limits are adjoint, or something 05:57:28 with the diagonal functor 05:57:37 a little hazy on the details and i have no paper :'( 05:57:54 anyway this being your area of expertise maybe you can explain it 05:57:58 -!- augur has joined. 05:58:08 y r u so mean 2 me 05:58:29 -!- sprocklem_ has joined. 05:58:33 "fine don t" 05:58:37 Bike: (It's a reverse matrix division, so it's more useful in the sense that A\B is the solution to A*X = B; it's also supposed to be computed more efficiently/accurately than if you'd write inv(A)*B.) 05:58:42 `quote 186 05:58:44 186) I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from other computer. 05:59:25 wow i can get this paper by just subscribing to Nature Neuroscience for $225 05:59:29 (It also returns the least-squares solution if A is not square.) 05:59:43 OR I could buy just the article (AND pdf) for $32!!! 05:59:57 Bike: what if you sold your soul instead 06:00:06 ah, tenure 06:00:06 how many papers would that get you 06:00:39 ok well the proxy isn't working, fuck. 06:01:47 If D is a diagram, i.e. a functor, D : I -> C, and K is the constant functor K : C -> C^I, then limits are characterized by Nat(KA,D) ~ Hom(A, Lim D) and colimits by Hom(Colim D, B) ~ Nat(D, KB). 06:02:08 so K means the diagonal functor, right? i.e. the functor that gives you a constant functor? 06:03:44 -!- douglass_ has joined. 06:04:28 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:04:28 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:04:29 -!- douglass has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:08:11 Bike: ok false alarm hth 06:08:17 i was just being unable to read english 06:08:24 good 06:11:49 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:13:54 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:16:18 help 06:16:37 hi comex 06:16:43 http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/ext-f/axioms-extended.pdf 06:16:46 figure 7 06:16:51 it says that "Int and C Int have no common reduct." 06:17:09 yet C Int can be reduced to D Int (C Int) which can be reduced to Int 06:17:31 so i don't get it 06:19:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:20:25 I haven't read the paper or anything about this extension, but why can D Int (C Int) be reduced to Int? 06:20:50 It's D x x = ..., not D x y. Or did I misunderstand? 06:20:58 aha 06:21:01 i can't read 06:21:20 thanks, duh :p 06:21:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:22:19 Maybe I should read this paper. 06:22:42 But my tab bar is completely full so I'd have to pick a tab to close. 06:23:05 tab six 06:23:31 OK, I have foo.old.txt and foo.txt both open next to each. That looks like a good candidate. 06:23:42 But maybe I had a reason for it? 06:23:44 help 06:23:53 yeah, metasyntax is bad for filenames 06:24:01 Maybe I should download papers like Bike rather than keep it all in my browser. 06:24:12 wave of the future 06:24:41 Hmm, .old.txt is much longer, so probably not. 06:26:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:29:33 Bike: hm maybe i was right all along 06:36:06 -!- douglass_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:36:21 how right 06:36:39 28% 06:38:17 that's not very much... 06:44:55 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:46:38 kmc: Hmm, do enum and struct syntax overlap at all? 06:52:46 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:53:46 kmc: http://www.tdp.cat/issues/tdp.a015a09.pdf 06:58:11 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 06:59:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:00:14 god help me. 07:00:21 Bike: come on 07:00:24 just work in binary 07:00:37 trinary 4 life. 07:01:06 3 life hth 07:01:28 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:02:10 Bike: how many hours of sleep should i get p. night 07:02:20 many 07:02:25 how 07:03:20 is 8 many 07:03:24 how about 7 07:03:29 12? 07:03:36 7 at least 07:03:44 ok and at most how much 07:03:52 11 07:03:57 should i fix one of getting-up-time/going-to-sleep-time 07:04:37 Bike what do those guys/gals that sit and find large numbers do if not arithmetic? 07:04:48 uuuugh. 07:07:13 -!- hogeyui___ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:07:51 -!- hogeyui___ has joined. 07:09:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:11:53 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:21:02 ion: Did you figure out callcc<->lem? 07:21:20 shachaf: Haven't got around to it yet, but i certainly will. 08:02:13 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:13:41 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 08:24:56 -!- nooodl__ has joined. 08:25:04 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl. 08:29:55 -!- hogeyui___ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:29:56 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:29:59 -!- hogeyui____ has joined. 08:40:03 Heh, i got an OTP that ended 3141592. 08:42:42 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:49:23 Perhaps it's some kind of a pi backdoor. 08:54:55 yeah, no secure generator would generate pi; everyone knows it 08:59:51 -!- lambdabot has joined. 09:03:33 I used to have a credit card with a PIN code that was printed on the receipts, because it was equal to a substring of the "application ID" that gets printed. 09:12:59 (incidentally, the defect of the Nazi enigma machine that contributed substantially towards automatically breaking it was that it was a letter-wise derangement: corresponding input/output letters never matched) 09:13:52 (so, if your OTP never generates pi, or 111111, you should ask for your money back) 09:22:52 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:22:58 Hi 09:26:26 -!- sprocklem_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:35:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:36:13 -!- augur has joined. 09:40:18 -!- hogeyui____ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:58:50 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 10:20:43 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:21:14 -!- carado has joined. 10:46:23 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:48:03 -!- carado has joined. 10:54:01 -!- hogeyui____ has joined. 11:00:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:01:55 -!- copumpkin has joined. 11:03:53 -!- hogeyui____ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:20:26 -!- hogeyui____ has joined. 11:50:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:52:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:23:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:24:03 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:24:36 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:28:16 I'm re-reading House of Leaves 12:54:55 -!- boily has joined. 12:54:58 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:17:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:18:01 -!- yorick has joined. 13:28:48 good cold morning! 13:29:45 @seen vorpal 13:29:45 V0rp41 13:29:45 Unknown command, try @list 13:29:52 ... 13:30:44 @tell vorpal eeeeh... tbh, no idea. I guess it finally worked? I went on another project, then switched teams. feedback from the client was very sparse. 13:30:45 Consider it noted. 13:30:45 Consider it noted. 13:32:17 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:32:31 kappabot: @part #esoteric 13:32:32 -!- kappabot has left. 13:32:40 boily: we have `seen 13:32:45 `seen vorpal 13:32:54 2013-07-23 15:34:10: Which is very very strange still 13:33:05 ah, not so bad. 13:33:23 but as long as he isn't connected, I can't @localtime him. 13:37:14 Swedish @localtime is Finnish @localtime minus one hour hth 13:37:26 `thanks fizzie 13:37:27 Thanks, fizzie. Thizzie. 13:37:42 `thanks Ngevd 13:37:43 Thanks, Ngevd. Thevd. 13:37:55 `thanks cnsnt 13:37:56 Thanks, cnsnt. Tnsnt. 13:38:04 `thanks cnnt 13:38:05 Thanks, cnnt. Tnnt. 13:38:11 `thanks ooel 13:38:12 Thanks, ooel. Thooel. 13:39:00 `thanks éeeee 13:39:01 Thanks, éeeee. Théeeee. 13:39:13 `thanks t́eeee 13:39:15 Thanks, t́eeee. Theeee. 13:39:34 `thanks ants 13:39:36 Thanks, ants. Thants. 13:39:36 It's "T at start, except if there is a vowel anywhere, then replace all initial non-vowels with Th". 13:39:47 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:40:07 (Where "T at start" means "replace first letter with T".) 13:40:41 `thanks 40601 13:40:42 Thanks, 40601. T0601. 13:41:21 `thanks cnsntthnglngw/e 13:41:22 Thanks, cnsntthnglngw/e. The. 13:41:45 ("Consonant-thing long whatever.") 13:47:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:48:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:48:47 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 14:04:21 -!- carado has joined. 14:09:59 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:11:05 -!- jsvine has joined. 14:14:20 @ask Gregor Why have the formatted logs suddenly turned black on grey, i find that annoying to read :( 14:14:20 Consider it noted. 14:22:27 -!- carado has joined. 14:24:29 -!- tertu has joined. 14:24:44 I decided to dress in more classic silicon valley fashion today 14:25:10 black jeans, long-sleeved striped dress shirt, hoodie 14:25:24 Gracenotes: do you wear socks in your sandals? 14:25:34 it's like I'm business casual, but taking it down a notch. yeaaaa 14:25:52 * oerjan is wearing two layers of socks in his sandals at the moment 14:26:06 because my feet get cold 14:26:23 boily: no, that's for plebes, for sure 14:27:03 j/k. My outfit is a commentary on the subversion of business norms in a casual innovative environment. 14:27:28 the outer layer is knitted wool 14:31:09 oerjan: in the winter we have «gougounes en phentex» (handmade knitted synthetic wool slippers, a traditional christmas gift) 14:31:47 synthetic? 14:32:13 i think mine are real wool, this particular pair is definitely handmade 14:33:38 most definitely synthetic. Phentex is a brand. 14:33:59 oh slippers 14:35:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 14:36:09 chickening out again 14:36:54 -!- boily has joined. 14:37:07 boily: stop chickening out all the time twh 14:39:21 rajdhskdsf: You came in here yesterday, with the same IP under a diff name <-- getting surreal 14:40:15 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 14:40:16 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:42:11 -!- Frooxius_ has changed nick to Frooxius. 14:46:43 oerjan: I'm still having trouble mixing /quit and /close. 14:46:59 OKAY 14:47:10 SORRY 14:47:14 `? twh 14:47:15 twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand. 14:47:26 oh yeah. I wrote that one. 14:47:37 good one imo hth 14:56:54 `pastewords 14:56:55 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastewords: not found 14:57:12 `pastewisdom 14:57:13 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/ 14:58:22 `? tdh 14:58:24 tdh? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 14:58:24 | 14:58:25 º¯`\o 14:58:35 oerjan!! 14:59:35 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:59:38 what the fungot is that ascii mutant doing here? 14:59:38 boily: almost as fun as it seems that there's a girl who entered college at 16 and haven't been coding other than icfp recently 15:00:06 boily: myndzi does not discriminate the handicapped hth 15:01:03 * oerjan vaguely remembers "handicapped" is no longer pc, but cannot remember what the pc term is. hm, disabled? 15:01:27 differently abled, I think. 15:01:48 are you saying they're _different_? that's insensitive! 15:02:23 it could be worse. I could have said “Canadianly abled”. 15:03:48 true. 15:20:33 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:20:39 08:19 does anyone know how to make a project with a lot of TH build faster? 15:20:56 oerjan: resisting the urge to say "use less th hth" 15:21:34 *use less useless th hth 15:22:11 wfm tht 15:23:38 shachaf: so proud of you 15:23:59 wait for me, something? 15:25:14 works for me 15:25:16 that helps that 15:25:58 -!- quintopia has joined. 15:27:24 quintopia: hi! 15:27:35 boily: :/ 15:27:45 :/? 15:29:53 do you know a way to crack a .odm file without installing overdrive media console? 15:30:08 i am on a library computer 15:30:12 and can't install things 15:30:44 and the library i'm borrowing from doesn't support audio books for android for some reason 15:33:24 @seen What is this 15:33:24 W|-|at iz0rz 7|-|Is 15:33:32 @list seen 15:33:32 No module "seen" loaded 15:33:36 @seep 15:33:37 Maybe you meant: slap leet help 15:33:41 @slap me 15:33:42 * lambdabot smashes a lamp on boily's head 15:33:50 oooh, I like it :D 15:34:28 quintopia: sadly, I think you're stuck with the thing, which is very stupid and obnoxious and gets in the way of the Freedom of Audiobooks. 15:36:18 `thanks mgrvgrvladje 15:36:19 Thanks, mgrvgrvladje. Thadje. 15:38:15 boily: do you have any audiobooks 15:39:13 quintopia: I had a Tintin album on vinyl once. it's somewhere in my parents' basement. probably. 15:49:13 -!- douglass_ has joined. 15:52:03 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:52:09 -!- AnotherTest2 has joined. 16:07:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:41:51 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:48:04 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:56:06 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:57:02 -!- Bike has joined. 17:08:45 -!- conehead has joined. 17:14:09 shachaf: what do you mean by the syntax overlapping? they use different keywords obviously 17:14:24 but you can define an enum variant with named fields, or a tuple-like struct 17:16:12 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:16:40 I mean, is there a meaning to e.g. "enum Foo(int, char);" or "enum Foo { x: int, y: char }". 17:16:46 With the struct syntax. 17:16:56 not sure 17:17:10 But maybe that kind of overloading isn't so great. 17:17:35 enums, even with a single variant, don't let you write things like x.y (I think?). 17:18:06 yeah that would be odd 17:19:06 Of course, maybe it should be like Haskell. E.g. enum Foo { A { x: int, y: char }, B { x: int, z: bool } } would allow .x but not .y or .z. 17:19:18 (Well, in Haskell it's allowed, just a runtime error. :-( ) 17:19:22 i don't love that part of Haskell 17:19:51 So it should be like Haskell but better? 17:19:55 If you are using the keyword enum instead of struct then I do suppose that would make more sense than enum Foo { x: int, y: char } isn't it? 17:20:40 zzo38: Well, the question is how well it'd work to combine enum and struct. 17:22:23 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:23:25 shachaf: Well, in Haskell it works, at least. 17:24:05 shachaf: I'm reading the cryptographic Bloom filters paper now 17:27:32 whee RSA blind signing 17:33:24 what could go wrong 17:34:14 yeah i don't know if there's a "safe" way to do blind signing 17:34:18 since you can't use traditional RSA padding 17:35:30 not without introducing a salt manually 17:37:04 elaborate? 17:37:31 ~duck salt 17:37:31 A colorless or white crystalline solid, chiefly sodium chloride, used extensively in ground or granulated form as a food seasoning and preservative. 17:43:08 Do you know an algorithm to efficiently encode text when there are temporary and permanent shift codes with varying lengths depending on the current state? 17:43:33 kmc: do-your-own-padding, salt chosen by signer 17:45:19 well... if they're signing a hash of the message, just make the hash hard-to-predict 17:45:24 zzo38: that sounds vaguely iso 2022... 17:46:18 imo fuck iso 2022 17:46:57 anyway, as long as you never use the 0x00 padding... 17:47:45 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:48:14 I will admit my lack of familiarity with blind signing attacks. so I stfu. 17:48:16 `olist (904) 17:48:18 olist (904): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly 17:48:50 `奥list 17:48:51 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 奥list: not found 17:52:06 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:55:20 boily: Not really the kind of thing I am doing, though. The shift and shiftlock codes vary (including by their length) depending on the current state, and there is only one current state instead of two. 17:57:58 what kind of encoding can be even more nasty than iso 2022? 18:01:40 I have made up a three dimensional transition matrix table, from the initial permanent state, final permanent state, and the state which the current character belongs to, into the encoding to use for it; they hav varying lengths without a clear pattern. 18:02:14 boily: Aubergine programs that output the correct bytecode sequences 18:02:59 -!- Bike_ has joined. 18:03:02 boily: you should make an Aubergine interpreter that outputs the memory cells as colored pixels in a grid. GrApHiCaL aUbErGiNe! 18:03:24 boily: It is Z-machine encoding, and it is actually simpler than ISO 2022 (ISO 2022 has a large number of featurse this one doesn't use), although it does have the feature that the encoding for shifts also changes depending on the current state. 18:03:45 * boily is suddenly struck with abject panic, horror, terror, and grotesque fear 18:04:48 quintopia: the obnoxious capitalization notwithstanding, this is a very interesting idea. 18:05:01 zzo38: you are evil. 18:05:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:05:31 boily: I didn't make up this encoding. 18:05:41 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 18:06:06 * boily hides behind his trusty squid 18:06:07 hmmm i wonder which two #esoteric members share a birthday, if any 18:06:15 december 24th? 18:06:33 i know someone else with a dec 24 birthday, but he's not here 18:06:46 i'm feb 22 18:06:54 my birthday is ""coming up"" 18:07:01 oops this is like that pop quiz puzzle 18:07:08 23. 18:07:09 You're a catch 21. 18:07:32 when shachaf 18:07:33 Why do you call me evil? 18:07:40 i'm january 7 18:07:49 zzo38: i didn't !! 18:07:52 zzo38: I thought that you had created that encoding. 18:07:54 zzo38: when's your birthday (for science) 18:08:14 shachaf: what are your birthday plans? 18:08:17 nooodl: are you trying to ask Questions to people you too? 18:08:45 nooodl: I don't think you should require it. 18:08:46 imo birthdays are less awkward than weight + coordinates!! 18:09:21 Gracenotes: usually my plans are to pretend it doesn't exist :'( 18:09:34 nooodl: humbug. 18:10:08 that reminds me, Vorpal: for very scientific purposes, what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh? 18:10:09 but maybe i've said too much 18:12:06 -!- variable has joined. 18:13:07 -!- jsvine has joined. 18:14:36 What purposes do you need their coordinates and weight? 18:15:12 body weighẗ 18:19:12 zzo38: to compute this Fine Channel's center of mass. 18:19:19 coördinates? Am I doing this right? 18:19:28 Hello, hello hexham. I'm continuing to gather thread for a story on esolangs and esolangers. I've had some good email exchanges with esolangers past and present, and looking to learn more about the rest of you. Quick survey if you'd like to help: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform 18:19:38 (and as shachaf kindly pointed out, the t is a ta' marbuta.) 18:20:07 Gracenotes: ÿou are. 18:20:14 jsvine: You might consider adding fields for approximate coördinates and body weigh. 18:20:33 jsvine: OK I am filling the form now. 18:21:06 * shachaf isn't really an esolanger so wouldn't feel right filling in the survey. 18:21:29 shachaf: fixed 18:21:31 * kmc isn't really an esolanger and also feels guilty about being part of the off-topic-ification of this channel 18:22:03 I think "approximate" distributes over "and". 18:22:07 But I'm not actually sure. 18:22:15 boily: Is the body weigh also approximate? 18:22:39 shachaf & kmc: meh, interested to hear from you anyway 18:22:46 shachaf: considering the kind of responses and answers I have collated, I don't think it makes any statistically significant difference. 18:23:15 shachaf & boily: merged 18:24:27 * shachaf can't tell whether "Are you planing to visit New York City any time soon?" is a pun. 18:24:35 PLAAAAANE 18:24:48 (What's the type of "shachaf &&& boily"?) 18:25:06 kmc: I don't think that is a good way to feel guilty; this channel has a lot of off-topic that is OK, although you should know at least a few things about esolang if you want to discuss on this channel since it is sometime used for explanation of various things not only about esolang. 18:25:23 what's the pun shachaf 18:25:31 kmc: "planing" 18:25:34 heh 18:25:40 heh, woops 18:25:42 zzo38: I know a lot about "unintentional esolangs" such as return-oriented programming, etc. 18:26:13 kmc: return-oriented??? 18:26:35 kmc: Yes, good to know that too some people in here would be interested in such things too including myself. What is "return-oriented", though? 18:27:20 boily: it's a technique for exploiting programs where you can't directly inject your own code (because the stack is non-executable, say). you build an exploit payload out of fragments of code already existing in the legitimate process 18:27:35 http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/dist/geometry.pdf‎ 18:28:00 jsvine: the form, it is filled. 18:28:06 Maybe if an actual esolang can be made which is using mainly that, rather than as a exploiting? 18:28:23 any sequence of bytes in executable memory that ends in a RET instruction can be used as a "gadget" 18:28:55 boily: the response, it is received 18:29:00 you build a bunch of fake stack frames pointing at them, and they return to each other one after another 18:29:16 also some other kinds of indirect jumps 18:29:20 and on x86 instructions have no alignment requirement so they don't even need to be "intentional" RET instructions, just any byte 0xC3 in exec memory 18:29:32 kmc: holy crap that's art 18:29:49 oh, are we discussing ROP as an esolang again? 18:31:03 yep 18:31:10 what ARE my favorite esolangs... hmmm 18:31:22 it's not just a beautiful hack, it's also the basis of most real world memory corruption exploits these days 18:31:27 @arr 18:31:27 Yeh scurvy dog... 18:31:51 since people are now pretty good at avoiding writeable, executable pages 18:32:21 what about self-modifying code? 18:33:38 most programs don't have too much of that 18:33:45 (although almost every program has a little!) 18:33:49 ROP did have papers on how it was climbing out of the Turing tarip 18:33:59 jsvine: I submitted the form. 18:34:02 but you can do it by remapping as writeable, then as executable 18:34:11 tarpit 18:34:15 and not leaving both perms set at a time when you could be exploited 18:35:10 I suppose you could consider buffer overflows involving pointer-nested struct manipulation itself an esolang 18:35:24 mm yes 18:35:51 kmc: turns out the ghc executable stack thing was due to people turning it on accidentally or something 18:35:53 zzo38: received, thanks 18:36:00 also the stuff people do to exploit heap corruption 18:36:23 a lot of exploits are in bootstrapping native code, yes, but they can operate in other ad-hoc computational frameworks first. The key is that those other computational frameworks, despite their limitations, are still basically Turing-complete. 18:36:57 http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=8 the word "epic" gets thrown around a lot these days but I really can't think of any more fitting description for this article & exploit 18:37:01 I usually don't bother with trying to prevent these overflows and kind bugs unless the program either is meant to be use with suid or meant to receive untrusted input. 18:37:34 hey shachaf, any chance you could compose an epic (just some couplets) about this article 18:37:48 Bike: outsourced to Gracenotes hth 18:38:18 hey Gracenotes, any chance you could compose an epic (just some couplets, heavy on alexandrines though) about this article 18:38:30 that would be awesome 18:38:42 I do worry about security when applicable. Programs I have written meant to be secure include Internet Quiz Engine and the remote TeX interface; please tell me if you find any security hole. 18:39:45 jsvine: Maybe you would gain important insight about the people in #esoteric from reading the channel quotes! 18:40:09 Yes, also read the logs. 18:40:28 There's only $(wc -l quotes) of them, after all! 18:40:36 `run wc -l quotes 18:40:38 1074 quotes 18:40:39 `qc 18:40:40 1074 quotes 18:40:50 I don't think they have any important insights though 18:41:20 They keep deleting quotations so there may be more things in the logs, too. 18:41:35 elliott: counterpoint: `pastequotes zzo38 18:41:49 `pastequotes zzo38 18:41:55 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29785 18:42:17 jsvine: submitted! the "what's your favorite esolangs" question reminded me of this thing: http://kevan.org/rubicon/ 18:42:29 You can also look at my Dungeons&Dragons game if you think it leads to any insights or just entertainment or whatever you think it is 18:42:30 it's a programming puzzle game inspired by an esolang by cpressey 18:43:24 nooodl: I wanted to make up a card game based on INTERCAL somehow... 18:43:42 Oh yes, consider also reading the logs, for insight. There's only three million or so lines in my (slightly incomplete) copy. 18:44:16 `quote Invent 18:44:17 12) First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, you know the rest. \ 13) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 81) (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 124) c 18:44:26 fizzie: but no lines of insight. 18:44:49 imo squareloi 18:45:08 mnoqy: how do you feel about the lack of a super mega update yesterday 18:45:17 im deeply upset 18:45:29 do you feel....... angry 18:45:35 no not quite 18:45:38 oh 18:45:54 how about angry 18:46:15 nah 18:46:22 is it a bold yellow angry? 18:46:36 nooodl: thanks and thanks — I hadn't seen that before! 18:46:43 elliott: select count(*) from event where target = 2 and type = 'msg' and body ilike '%insight%' => 266 so there 18:47:15 I have once made up a computer game based on BackFlip esolang; the grid is hidden but you can choose which edge to enter, and then it updates the grid and tells you where it exits from as well as the output of the program, and you have to figure out where the pieces are. 18:47:50 zzo38: In doing some of this research, I read the original INTERCAL paper for the first time. Pretty great. 18:48:29 (You don't have to specify the direction of a mirror or arrow, although you do have to specify it is a mirror, arrow, empty, or output, and if it is output then you do have to specify its value.) 18:48:47 -!- AnotherTest2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:51:25 fizzie: Yes I suppose a SQL database would be a good way to search it, although I might use a different format, so the target is '#esoteric' and the type is 'PRIVMSG' 18:52:31 I have written a extension library for some statistical functions in SQL, since otherwise SQL is already pretty good for some kind of statistics. I have also written a extension library which defines a virtual table containing all 64-bit integers; this table can be used like a FOR-loop. 18:54:12 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 18:56:44 jsvine: I like that, as well as the stuff written later about INTERCAL, such as "P.D.Q. Bach is the INTERCAL of baroque music" 19:00:04 A lot of things are Turing-complete, even Wang tiles, sequent calculus, Wang B machine, Magic: the Gathering cards, Minesweeper, ... 19:00:17 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:00:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:00:57 Minesweeper is turing-complete? 19:02:15 I should sell tees with “This T-Shirt is Turing Complete”. 19:03:54 i'd mock 'em 19:04:25 I'd slap you with a tunafish. 19:04:59 :( 19:05:45 I have made a Turing machine sequent calculus consisting of four rules. 19:06:28 delicious, fresh tunafish... 19:06:32 * boily drools... 19:06:53 back in my day we just had tapes and greek letters and that was enough turing completeness for us, but these days everybody wants to be turing complete! oh this shirt is complete. oh this puzzle is complete. oh sokoban is in PSPACE. enough i say!! 19:08:00 Not all of them are even intended to be Turing-complete, though. 19:15:04 Maybe we should put jsvine's survey in the topic. 19:15:07 Easy to miss otherwise. 19:15:27 I suppose you can if you want to 19:15:40 But don't make it too longer otherwise it won't fit 19:16:11 shachaf: hey, thanks, that'd be great 19:16:18 who is mr. burbujas? 19:16:28 I don't know. 19:17:08 jsvine: Some things I didn't mention but I don't know if you want to know these things about various people in here, or would be interested in it at all 19:17:52 http://www.flickr.com/photos/pickup_stix/6010986771/ 19:17:52 boily: http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/assets_c/2009/08/rsz_1intact-thumb-500x374.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaseysmith/7218024116/sizes/l/ 19:17:55 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:18:01 zzo38: always interested to know things about various people 19:18:12 hm, we can take underhanded out now, can't we? 19:18:24 is it over 19:18:30 Does it help to know that some people in here also program Haskell (including myself)? 19:18:39 this is most disturbing. 19:18:42 well you can't submit any more. 19:18:45 OK, someone else do the topic thing. 19:19:23 -!- Bike has set topic: jsvine is doing an esolang survey!: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 19:19:28 rip burbujas 19:19:52 Also, that I play monster character in Dungeons&Dragons game and record it using TeX with a set of macros I wrote for that purpose? Maybe that tells you what kind of people I am, but confusing since that is just one thing not everything. You could learn other people too. 19:19:53 rip. 19:20:04 zzo38: It could be. Why do you think? I'm a few chapters into Learn You a Haskell for Great Good, so I'm interested, independent of this research, but don't see the immediate connection. 19:20:10 The IRC logs has a lot of it but they are really long anyways; you could try looking at some things at random. 19:20:34 jsvine: The connection is just that some people in here have interest in Haskell programming too. 19:20:39 And mathematics. 19:20:55 Haskell is a strange language, it's not "esoteric" in the strict sense, but might appeal for similar reasons 19:21:25 it might appeal to people who like hugs 19:21:49 zzo38 & kmc: Gotcha. It seems to have a similar brain-stretching appeal. What other mainstream languages do you think particularly appeal to esolangers? 19:22:15 jsvine: speaking only for myself: Haskell, C++, Rust are all very interesting and ususual 19:22:35 probably Prolog and other logic languages 19:22:42 dependently typed languages such as Coq, Agda, Idris 19:23:08 TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting 19:23:11 maybe Scheme; the language itself is very simple, but it provides a nice setting for exploring a lot of mind-bending FP concepts 19:23:21 `addquote TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting 19:23:25 1075) TeX is a bit unusual when doing things other than typesetting 19:23:32 several people here do assembly and machine code and such, i think, more than i'd expect from randomness 19:23:59 or are familiar with that level of things anyway 19:24:04 Yes, I have written a few programs for the Famicom 19:24:06 maybe just from looking at compiler output, i dunno. 19:24:22 compilers being, of course, very PLT-relevant programs 19:24:23 (using assembly language) 19:27:57 http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2013/07/10/avx-512-instructions 19:28:00 Control structures in non-procedural SQL is also unusual 19:28:48 i bet Fiora has already been using it for years 19:29:51 too many goddamn bits 19:29:53 "Intel AVX instructions use the VEX prefix while Intel AVX-512 instructions use the EVEX prefix which is one byte longer." ooooh. 19:29:58 how long before I can fit an entire page in a CPU register 19:30:11 only 3 more steps 19:30:14 I think this means they might be adding the Knights' Corner features (like swizzling and stuff) to normal AVX :o 19:30:39 kmc: 6 more steps? the 512 is (I assume) bits... 19:30:43 kmc: 512 bits is not quite three steps away from 4096 bytes. 19:30:45 Aww, too slow. 19:30:54 I suppose it depends on the size of a step, though. 19:30:54 but geez, that's a lot of prefix bytes 19:31:54 eventually we just abandon main memory. a golden age 19:32:11 gosh this is cool though 19:32:35 oh geeez. 32 registers O_O 19:32:59 * Fiora bakes intel cookies 19:33:34 ah, so the next step would probably be enough to load a whole page into registers, albeit not *one* register 19:33:46 ("the 32 ZMM registers represent 2K of register space!") 19:34:08 What *I'm* waiting for is seeing what the next letter is going to be. 19:34:19 They've gone from xmm to ymm to zmm; now it gets interesting. 19:34:19 Å, obviously 19:35:46 olsner: Well, I don't know. Perhaps the Danish conspiracy manages an æmm. 19:36:00 or perhaps something like ezmm or xzmm for extended zmm 19:37:54 or they might do something boring like operating pairwise on zmm0+1 (and perhaps add another 32 registers at the end) 19:38:02 jsvine: Do you know anything about some of the other things I have mentioned (TeX, Dungeons&Dragons game, etc)? Do you know a lot of things other people are mentioning? 19:38:16 it would be really convenient if they did pairing like um... I think NEON does 19:38:23 so like, ymm0+ymm1 == zmm0 19:38:32 that makes it super easy to address the top and bottom halves of a register 19:38:38 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:38:45 right now you have to do, like, a vextract to get the top half 19:38:56 Fiora: My opinion is that they are getting way too complicated? 19:39:14 so like vextracti128 xmm1, ymm0, 1 paddw xmm0, xmm1 movhlps xmm1, xmm0 paddw xmm0, xmm1 etc to do a horizontal sum 19:39:31 Fiora: Would you then have 32 zmm registers, 64 ymm registers and 128 xmm registers? 19:39:38 I guess so? 19:40:01 -!- Bike has joined. 19:40:04 I guess if that was too hard on the instruction set you could, like, have only the lowest ones addressable as both? 19:40:11 Well, xmm registers are already specified to be the bottom half of ymm registers, aren't they? 19:40:23 yeah, but like, xmm1 is the bottom half of ymm1, not the top half of ymm0 19:40:51 I guess there must be some reason they didn't do it that way... 19:40:52 Right. You're just proposing adding N new xmm registers to address the top halves? 19:41:16 "Yesterday was my 21st birthday; at that age Newton and Pascal had already acquired many claims to immortality." -- fourier <-- suddenly i feel a bit better. 19:41:17 A lot of modern computer designs are way too complicated; sometimes I have designed (or used) simpler things, such as Digi-RGB for a video cable. 19:41:21 Umm.... I guess you could? you cuold also, like, have ymm0-7 map to xmm0-15? 19:41:42 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 19:42:26 Oh, AVX doubled the number of xmm registers anyway? 19:42:35 no no, it didn't 19:42:44 the doubling is with AVX-512, I think, that's a new thing 19:43:11 Bike: wooow 19:43:14 geez 19:43:26 zzo38: In summer camp, ages ago, I used to play D&D, but barely remember a bit of it. And I've heard of TeX but never used it. A lot of the other topics (XMM register, return oriented programming, etc.) I've never heard of before, and occasionally look up on the Google. 19:43:31 x86-64 did double the number of xmm's from the original 8, though. 19:43:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Changing host). 19:43:50 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:43:58 fizzie: Right, I just figured that out. 19:43:59 I wonder if AVX-512 will let us use all 32 of them on 32-bit or something? 19:44:29 apparently fourier was more known as an egyptologist than anything while he was alive. 19:44:33 so... i guess that went well. 19:44:55 jsvine: Well, if you are interested, here it is: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex and dungeonsrecording.tex 19:45:47 published his first original result in 1798, he was... 30 19:46:17 Fiora: Can you even run 32-bit stuff on one of those Xeon Phi things? 19:46:35 Fiora: probably not? 32-bit is just left in for booting 64-bit :) 19:46:41 Fiora: It sounds like a thing they wouldn't bother have included when it was just a coprocessor. 19:46:49 (My character is Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe) 19:46:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:47:18 olsner: Xeon Phi (with AVX-512) was previously just a PCIe coprocessor card, it doesn't even need to boot anything. 19:47:20 32 bit is just for booting 64 bit, as 16 bit is for booting 32 bit, 4 bit is for booting 8 bit, etc 19:47:24 fizzie: I'm guessing AVX-512 will be on upcoming regular intel chips, though? 19:47:34 or will it be phi-only...? 19:47:42 I mean, I guess it'd be harder for them to drop support on regular ones... 19:48:07 oh, you're right... it doesn't say anything about their regular chips 19:48:20 does AMD do any of this stuff yet? 19:48:21 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 19:48:21 fizzie: it does boot something, but I think they've removed most of the legacy crud 19:48:52 I think AMD still has 128-bit execution units... but I'm not totally sure.. 19:48:53 from what I read, there was some kind of "firmware" from intel, but it could also boot a linux kernel 19:49:09 -!- Frooxius has joined. 19:49:12 Fiora: It did say something about "some future Xeon processors scheduled to be introduced after Knights Landing". 19:49:14 Bike: whoa, fourier is old. 19:49:20 fizzie: nice~ 19:49:39 oh damn I fail at bits vs bytes 19:49:40 so sad 19:50:04 give it time kmc, you'll learn to computer some day 19:50:29 I won't 19:50:31 elliott: ancient 19:52:24 fizzie: I guess if sandy bridge was AVX-256 maybe skylake will be AVX-512... 19:52:41 Fiora: The AVX-512 chapter of the Extensions Programming Reference contains a line stating "in 64-bit mode, 32 vector registers can be encoded using EVEX prefix", which kinda-sorta sounds like you could do *something* in not-64-bit mode too, but it doesn't seem to exactly say that either. 19:52:54 huh 19:53:10 Maybe it'd be 16 registers in 32-bit mode? XD 19:53:13 I guess maybe it's just saying that the EVEX prefix is only recognized in 64-bit mode. 19:53:13 since it's half! 19:53:15 ahhh 19:53:22 wouldn't that mean that you can't even use AVX-512 in 32-bit mode? 19:53:23 in 32-bit mode, 32 vector registers can be encoded using a switch to long mode 19:53:47 "Fourier was in his mid-fifties when he finally published The Analytical Theory of Heat." 19:53:53 Fiora: That's somewhat what it sounds like. 19:54:59 Fiora: Also, EVEX has some sort of conditional SIMD stuff, apparently. 19:55:11 yeah, and they mentioned like, mask registers? 19:55:20 Yes. 19:55:21 I remember glancing at the Phi and it had a thing kind of like that 19:55:27 It sounds a lot like the FirePath stuff. 19:55:29 so this kind of looks like them stuffing it back into regular AVX? 19:55:31 FirePath? 19:56:11 Fiora: It's a kind of an ARM offspring; there's a small example at http://everything2.com/title/FirePath -- there isn't all that much about it anywhere. 19:56:26 I think I mentioned this before? But maybe it was to someone else. 19:56:26 `delquote 666 19:56:29 ​*poof* When you die in Canada, you die in real life. 19:57:03 that's... interesting O_O 19:57:14 I wonder how shuffles would work in something like that 19:57:24 clearly i was on the mark about asm here >_> 19:57:31 but, but, that was an important part of the Canadian Lore! 19:57:31 on the mark...? 19:57:35 `quote Canada 19:57:36 367) as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw quintopia: I am at Canada. \ 995) metar lead to canada, more metar and cows 19:58:22 `revert 19:58:25 Done. 19:58:28 it's a zzo quote and it's on quote number 666, what's more to like 19:58:32 also did delquote get broken? 19:58:35 oh it was just mosh... 19:58:40 Fiora: jsvine asked what languages people use and i said asm/machine code stuff. 19:58:48 I wonder why I get all these weird display issues with mosh 19:58:54 it's not a zzo quote, it's an xkcd quote or something 19:58:56 The eight opmask registers (k0 .. k7) of AVX-512 sound a lot like FirePath's "predicate registers". 19:59:00 Bike: ohhhhh! 19:59:04 Except bigger, since it's a wider SIMD. 19:59:04 it says right there! 19:59:07 people here use* 19:59:11 it doesn't belong in the database 19:59:35 fizzie: how big are they, like, 32 bits? 19:59:51 and I guess each bit would affect 32 bit chunks of the operation 20:02:40 apparently, in 32-bit mode, EVEX only gives you 8 vector registers 20:02:43 `quote 999 20:02:45 999) It's like narnia only with dicks 20:02:54 I guess that's consistent at least 20:03:02 `quote 888 20:03:03 888) GreyKnight: for instance, you can form a poset category from a bunch of tiles oh, that's why somebody was conflating category theory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D 20:03:45 bad quotes, imo. 20:04:35 `quote 777 20:04:37 777) Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations 20:04:49 Fiora: The AVX-512 opmask registers? Apparently those are 64 bits, though I don't quite know why, since they only deal with 32-bit or 64-bit vector elements, and even 512/32 is just 16. (Room for extensions?) 20:04:52 seems like theres a Repdigit Quote Curse. 20:05:00 s/es/e's/ 20:05:25 fizzie: the opmask registers can't be used for 8-bit and 16-bit ops? 20:05:53 I like 999 but not 888 or 777 20:05:57 results inconclusive 20:05:59 looks like the instructions for modifying the opmask registers only work on 16 bits, so I wonder why they are 64-bit in the first place 20:06:05 hi elliott 20:06:07 `quote 555 20:06:08 555) I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand. 20:06:13 hi kmc 20:06:22 Fiora: "Each bit of the opmask register governs one vector element operation (a vector element can be of 32 bits or 64 bits)." 20:06:22 that is really strange @_@ I hope they explain things better... 20:06:29 hi kmc 20:06:32 AVX-512 doesn't support integers? >_< 20:06:42 * Fiora withdraws her offer of homemade cookies to intel 20:06:56 e.g. KANDW: Bitwise AND 16 bits masks k2 and k3 and place result in k1. 20:06:57 hi kmc 20:07:59 olsner: Perhaps they'll add KANDD and KANDQ etc. when they have use for more bits. 20:08:26 KANADA 20:08:31 geez, they have new instructions too? I wonder why they couldn't just, like, call it "AND" 20:08:35 and like, extent AND to work on k registers? 20:08:52 maybe to avoid confusing old assemblers / disassemblers 20:08:54 fizzie: I guess 20:09:07 Fiora: It's a three-argument AND, though. 20:09:15 I mean, they added all those V's, too? 20:09:42 makes sense... 20:09:54 it's actually kind of weird. like, now x86 has a 3-argument ANDN, but a 2-argument AND 20:10:03 the way they're extending things is confusingly inconsistent 20:11:03 I hope I can remember it all... 20:11:16 if it was suddenly consistent now, that would be wildly inconsistent with how previous extensions have always been inconsistent 20:11:23 VEXTRACTi64x4 "extract 256-bits of quadword integer values from the source operand (the second operand) and store to the low 256-bit of the destination operand (the first operand). The 256-bit data extraction occurs at an 256-bit granular offset specified by imm8[0] as the multiply factor The desination register may be either a vector register or a 256-bit memory location." 20:11:33 It all sounds very complicated. 20:11:35 ow. 20:11:49 The lack of punctuation is also in the original. 20:12:07 VEXTRACTi64x4.... @___@ 20:12:17 they didn't just call it vextracti256? geez, they called it vextracti128... 20:12:30 I... I think if I'm readnig it right it works the same way too... 20:12:30 VEXTRACTi511+1 20:12:35 learning arithmetic with intel 20:12:42 elliott: in b4 FDIV bug 20:12:44 Fiora: There's VEXTRACTi128, VEXTRACTi32x4 and VEXTRACTi64x4. 20:12:57 ..... @_@ wait um how is i32x4 different from i128 20:13:06 looks like they're still no good at arithmetic 20:13:11 Fiora: It has an update granularity of 32 bits and takes the writemask into account. 20:13:24 update granularity...? 20:13:32 Fiora: I'm amused by the idea of you filling a box with homemade cookies and then mailing it to Intel, 2200 Mission College Blvd., Santa Clara, CA 95054-1549 20:13:33 So like... it's a scatter operation...? 20:13:36 I wonder what would happen 20:13:37 Fiora: IOW, you can have one of those opmask registers involved. 20:13:41 update granularity, straight from /r/vxjunkies. 20:13:43 Fiora: (With an element size of 32 bits.) 20:13:44 interns deputized as food tasters 20:13:46 can i have homemade cookies 20:13:53 so like, if I have 20:13:54 are you not intel? 20:14:00 i'm not intel 20:14:04 shachaf: yes, come to SF sometime and we can bake cookies together 20:14:05 xmm0 = ABCD zmm1 = EFGH IJKL MNOP QRST 20:14:06 I am skeleton jelly. 20:14:08 kmc: maybe intel would send chips back (hilarious) 20:14:17 I can use vextracti32x4 to extract EFGH with a write mask of 1101 to get EFCH? 20:14:21 kmc: sgtm 20:14:29 am I getting it right, or...? 20:14:39 Fiora: I believe so, yes. 20:14:56 that's... I guess kind of cool? it'd be nice if they let us, like, pull any 4 arbitrary 32s though XD 20:15:27 imo when do we get MMOR and MXOR hth 20:15:32 s/M// 20:15:47 Fiora: You can pull any of EFGH, IJKL, MNOP or QRST, already. 20:15:57 Fiora: But you can't pull out GHIJ, for example. 20:16:04 okay, that makes sense... 20:16:11 and I can't get FNQT 20:16:12 :P 20:16:48 huh, though... like... they have an i32x4 and i128, but they have an i64x4 and no i256... I wonder why 20:17:13 And the VEXTRACTi64x4 could pull out either (masked) EFGH IJKL or MNOP QRST. 20:17:38 that makes sense... 20:18:50 Fiora: Also, 512-bit registers, so zmm1 = EFGH IJKL MNOP QRST UVWX YZuh oh I ran out of letters. 20:19:00 I usually start using lowercase ^^; 20:19:36 it gets awkward when I have to represent multiple registers though and then it's like oh gosh english can I have more letters 20:19:37 how many is 512 bits? 20:19:39 and then I start using kana 20:19:43 ... here I was boggling at E..T already 20:19:53 zmm0 = ABCD EFGH IJKL MNOP QRST UVWX YZab cdef, zmm1 = ghij klmn opqr stuv wxyz how do I type Greek on this? 20:20:14 I end up having to diagram things a lot so >_< 20:20:50 * kmc :psyduck:s at all of this 20:20:59 do your diagrams ever commute 20:21:45 commute...? 20:22:04 category theory joke. 20:22:14 oh 20:22:47 oh 20:22:49 I wonder if soon the "opcode/instruction" fields are categorically longer than the "description" field in the tables. I mean, EVEX.512.66.0F3A.W0 39 /r ib VEXTRACTI32x4 xmm1/m128 {k1}{z}, zmm2, imm8. 20:23:47 maybe they'll start using UUIDs as opcodes (to save space in the tables) 20:25:22 You can use the opmask to select arbitrary floats/doubles out of the register and write them into a contiguous vector in memory, which sounds quite funky. 20:25:35 hi neena! who are you? 20:25:51 so, like... EVEX.512.66.0F3A.W0 is... four bytes...? 20:25:58 `welcome neena 20:26:00 neena: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:26:03 zzo38: neat. I'm having a little trouble running the program — probably because I refused to download the 2.2-gig full version of MacTeX and instead opted for the 80Mb "basic" version — but I think I catch the drift. 20:26:47 I am a failure at lurking, boily. 20:26:49 Fiora: I think so, yes. 0x62 and then three bytes of bits. 20:27:10 I thought the EVEX was a two-byte prefix or something? 20:27:15 like, it was an extra byte plus the VEX or something? 20:27:20 it's a four-byte prefix :) 20:27:34 and VEX is three bytes or something 20:27:44 I thought VEX was one byte, plus an opcode, or...? 20:28:25 * Fiora really is bad at all of this >_< 20:28:34 doubtful 20:28:40 EVEX is a 4-Byte prefix (the first byte must be 62H); VEX is either a 2-Byte (C5H is the first byte) or 3-Byte (C4H is the first byte) prefix. 20:28:43 Fiora: The encoding parts of the guide says it's 62H, [R X B R' 0 0 m m] [W v v v v 1 p p] [z L' L b V' a a a], where all those letters are bits. 20:29:53 EVEX.mm is two low bits of VEX.mmmmm, and EVEX.pp is a copy of VEX.pp, and vvvv is the same as VEX.vvvv, so it does have some of the same fields. 20:30:43 this is scary 20:30:56 geez I am just even trying to understand the avx encoding scheme like the regular one and wow 20:30:59 (And I guess you can't again use EVEX in 32-bit mode because 62H is the ES segment override prefix there.) 20:31:18 ooooh. so they reused a segment prefix 20:31:25 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:31:39 They're angling for a "best reuse of a segment prefix" award. 20:31:48 they've reused them before? 20:32:25 -!- atehwa has joined. 20:32:53 I don't know whether they have, but I'm sure you can still get an award. 20:33:09 VEX prefixes are... reused segment-register loading instructions? 20:33:23 fizzie: the manual I found says it's possible to use EVEX in 32-bit mode 20:34:11 olsner: Which manual is this? (I have probably the same manual where you quoted that last line from open.) 20:34:45 Hmm, curious. 20:34:49 probably the royal sign manula 20:34:50 it's not very explicit about it but "Table 4-3. EVEX Encoding Register Specifiers in 32-bit Mode" 20:34:51 *manual 20:35:20 "The EVEX prefix is a 4-byte prefix, with the first two bytes derived from unused encoding form of the 32-bit-mode-only BOUND instruction," says the manual, too. 20:35:39 Maybe I looked at a wrong column of the opcode map. 20:36:11 speaking of BOUND, if you have the same manual it'll also describe a set of "MPX" extensions 20:37:12 which seems to be a set of registers for storing bounds of buffers and a bunch of instructions to do checked memory accesses 20:38:00 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:38:55 -!- atehwa has joined. 20:42:41 I can't quite figure out how it works in 32-bit mode, but I guess it does if they say so. (62H is BOUND, the P0 byte is fixed as xxxx00xx, and considered as a ModR/M byte that would mean high bit of RM and low bit of reg is 0, but I don't see how that makes it an "unused encoding form".) 20:46:32 http://sprunge.us/jUFc that certainly looks like the two first bytes of a EVEX prefix to me. 20:47:13 Oh well. 20:51:56 olsner: Table 4-3 seems very much limited compared to Table 4-2, anyway. At least it seems restricted to 8 registers (3 bits) in 32-bit mode. 20:52:45 is it wrong if I like... I have this desire for a pmovmskb/movmskps that outputs to an opmask 20:52:47 Ohhhh, right, of course; since 32-bit mode only uses the vvv bits of EVEX, they can select a second byte such that it encodes a register operand in the R/M field, which isn't used for BOUND, making it an unused pattern. 20:53:12 VPCONFLICTD/Q @___@ 20:53:29 that... wow that actually seems really cool 20:53:34 32-way duplicate detection! 20:53:54 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:54:04 -!- sacje has joined. 20:54:28 VPLZNCT~ 20:54:53 Bike: "VEXP2PD—Approximation to the Exponential 2^x of Packed Double-Precision Floating-PointValues with Less Than 2^-23 Relative Error" the longest instruction description XD 20:55:27 Fiora: Apparently there's a separate "AVX-512 Conflict Detection" extension, with its own CPUID bit, that VPCONFLICT/VPLZCNT/friends comes from. 20:55:58 I guess some of those instructions might be just for the Phi ? 20:56:35 "sparse prefetch" wow 20:56:49 "Knights Landing will support three sets of capabilities to augment the foundation instructions. This is documented in the programmer’s guide; they are known as Intel AVX-512 Conflict Detection Instructions (CDI), Intel AVX-512 Exponential and Reciprocal Instructions (ERI) and Intel AVX-512 Prefetch Instructions (PFI)." 20:57:14 Knights Landing is (as far as I can tell) still a Phi thing, but it has the "Xeon Phi as a host processor" form too. 20:57:42 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:57:44 "This chapter describes a family of inst 20:57:44 ruction extensions that target the acceleration of the Secure Hash Algorithm 20:57:46 (SHA), specifically the SHA-1 and SHA-256 variants" 20:57:57 Intel Bitcoin Extensions? xD 20:58:56 we're going to have a (probably mob funded) bitcoin here in Montréal! 20:59:05 s/bitcoin/bitcoin building/ 20:59:10 Fiora: Ooh, it's like copying VIA PadLock from the whenever-it-was-but-it-was-a-long-time-ago. 20:59:16 VIA Padlock? 20:59:28 It's a crypto-engine integrated in VIA C7 and VIA Eden. 20:59:36 oooh. well I guess they already have some of it, right? 20:59:40 RDRAND and AES-NI? 20:59:45 It did SHA-1, SHA-256 at five gigs/second, and AES, and RDRAND. 20:59:54 (Well, not "RDRAND", but random number generation.) 21:00:11 So, yes, they've been just slowly picking up its features. 21:00:35 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 21:01:47 i just want Python with HLE 21:02:01 hmm, so the two bits fixed to 0 have nothing to do with making it an invalid BOUND instruction? 21:02:13 actually, why do I even care 21:02:20 The logical next step would be to pick up the last missing PadLock feature, which is I think some sort of modular multiplication helper for RSA. 21:02:28 it's too slow to be sufficiently performant for anything CPU bound with or without threads 21:02:35 well, it would be cool for pypy 21:02:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:02:48 geez MPX looks complicated 21:02:50 olsner: Not as far as I can tell, since (according to Table 4-3) none of the other P0 bits are used for anything in 32-bit mode, so it can be chosen freely. 21:03:06 is CLMUL that? or no, that's... carry-less multiplication 21:03:23 -!- Bike has joined. 21:03:23 olsner: (The fixed 1 bit certainly doesn't.) 21:04:22 how does modular multiplication in software usually work...? 21:04:26 Fiora: It has something to do with doing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_multiplication but all the first results were too PR-y to go in detail. 21:05:03 I guess that link's a good answer to that question, though. 21:05:11 (Assuming that's what they use, I'unno.) 21:11:25 This broadcast thing in AVX-512 seems quite fancy too. 21:12:41 boily: bitcoin building?? o_O 21:13:11 is it different from like, vpbroadcastw or similar? 21:14:39 Fiora: It's "embedded", you can set a bit in the EVEX prefix, and it will load only 32 (or 64) bits from a memory operand and broadcast it into a full-width operand. 21:15:20 ooh. that's kind of cool 21:16:22 kmc: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=235422.0 21:17:25 bitcoin embassy........... 21:19:24 ♠♠♠ Bit777.com ♠♠♠ THE PRIME BITCOIN CASINO FEATURING 50+ GAMES. ♠♠♠ PLAY TO WIN BTC NOW! ♠♠♠ 21:19:47 I prefer homemade cookies. 21:28:58 -!- boily has quit (Quit: What is the speed of an unladen penguin plushie?). 21:29:07 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:34:47 -!- Bike_ has joined. 21:34:53 -!- sprocklem has joined. 21:37:40 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:37:50 -!- mnoqy has joined. 21:47:22 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 21:51:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:10:16 @tell zzo38 i do not think it is always possible to find the contents of a backflip program by running it from chosen edges. in particular if you have a region bounded entirely by inwards pointing arrows you will never be able to say anything about its interior. 22:10:17 Consider it noted. 22:10:57 the "event horizon" principle of reverse engineering 22:11:19 oerjan: does zzo want the program text or just something operationally identical, though? 22:12:53 (You don't have to specify the direction of a mirror or arrow, although you do have to specify it is a mirror, arrow, empty, or output, and if it is output then you do have to specify its value.) 22:13:21 @tell zzo38 well, ignoring output. 22:13:21 Consider it noted. 22:13:26 i see. 22:13:31 oerjan: but that interior cannot change how the program behaves, right? 22:13:42 that's what i meant 22:14:28 does backflip have spooky action at a distance 22:14:43 no. 22:14:50 elliott: that was my point 22:15:01 except for output which is an extension 22:15:27 oerjan: right, but I mean, you can obtain something equivalent to the original program in terms of behaviour maybe, and which is unchanged if you analyse it again? 22:16:28 elliott: yes. but i didn't get the impression zzo38 was doing that, which is why i asked. 22:17:04 in fact in order to do that, you _would_ want the player to specify all directions, so you could simulate whether eir solution does the right thing 22:17:17 is backflip turing-complete (or rather, can programs in finite space go indefinitely before halting) 22:17:27 Bike: no, no. 22:17:46 isn't that mentioned in the article. 22:17:57 i haven't been looking at the article. reading's for nerds. 22:18:08 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BackFlip#Computational_class 22:27:25 -!- noooodl has joined. 22:32:01 -!- yorick has joined. 22:40:32 shachaf: my exciting discovery today is that in Servo, make RUSTFLAGS="-Z debug-info" actually kinda works and you can use objdump -S and get Rust code interleaved with asm! 22:40:54 which is v. useful for decoding my myriad stack backtraces 22:41:35 does it slow down compilation 22:43:30 kmc: i wish i had an implicit binder for all my scattered paper 22:43:32 would be p. handy 22:44:10 :) 22:44:45 i saw one of these up on a board at mozilla http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/shivkaladrakh/tearable20puns.png 22:45:05 those things are amazing XD 22:45:53 i find it odd that Fiora likes puns but doesn't like other forms of humour which seem similar to me 22:46:13 which forms? 22:46:14 guaghagh 22:46:37 ? 22:47:19 i don't know, a lot of things i say for one 22:47:33 I don't get it 22:47:38 usually some form of viewing the world under a different assumption or perspective and seeing what happens 22:47:42 i was just guaghaghing at the pun. 22:47:45 s. 22:47:51 i'm bad at explaining what i mean so i'll stop :'( 22:48:01 shachaf: I didn't test if it slows down compilation, but not enough for me to notice without testing 22:48:08 rustc is pretty slow overall :/ 22:48:22 kmc: imo that kind of thing should be the default if it doesn't 22:48:23 and doesn't parallelize well because the unit of together-compilation is large 22:48:31 shachaf: presumably it makes the binaries bigger, maybe a lot bigger 22:53:44 shachaf: is the tao a zero knowledge proof 22:58:52 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:02:21 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 23:02:22 kmc: i don't know 23:04:12 elliott: incidentally tatham's black box puzzle works the way you suggest. 23:04:17 kmc: wouldn't it be great if people found a sha-1 collision that way 23:05:47 yes 23:06:03 (for context: https://github.com/kmcallister/servo/commit/350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e are not the same commit at all) 23:06:13 the former matches my local repo 23:06:39 as they used to say at my preschool: sha sha sha, sheket bvakasha 23:06:45 (p. sure that's how they pronounced it) 23:06:45 whatsit mean 23:06:45 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:07:02 "sha" is like "shh" 23:07:03 not sure if undead does, or just guarantees a unique solution. 23:07:11 "sheket bvakasha" is "quiet please" or so 23:07:23 "silence please" 23:08:59 sha sha sha, shachaf bvakasha 23:09:25 kmc: whoa what's with that 23:09:26 the collision 23:09:41 -!- Bike has joined. 23:09:42 ikr 23:09:45 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sheket%20Bevakashah 23:09:47 no but seriously, help 23:10:21 thoerjan 23:10:27 everything you know is wrong, hth 23:11:28 do you actually know what's up or not 23:12:03 it's a sha-1 collision hth 23:12:14 https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/fe91f6e238acd9e423d98c18c906416be3090eb3 23:12:17 if you follow the link to hebrew hammer read only the first item twh 23:12:35 i don't get it 23:12:45 but I'll stop asking since it doesn't look like anyone will reply seriously 23:13:01 elliott: you know approx. what anyone else know 23:13:06 it looks like a github bug 23:14:51 s 23:15:15 so could you practically find collisions by trawling a site with lotsa shas like that 23:15:36 not particularly 23:15:40 i guess none of them would be very useful collisions 23:15:57 any sha1 collision would be a big deal 23:16:27 there's none publicly known collision at the moment anyway 23:16:56 but p. sure all of github's activity generates way fewer hashes than one gpu 23:17:04 bah. 23:17:06 s/ne// 23:17:35 -!- ajf has joined. 23:17:46 Anyone want to write an actual program in DevPerc? :3 23:17:47 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator 23:20:53 oh mystery solved, I accidentally created a branch named 350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e 23:21:00 shachaf: gerates? what kind of nonsense is this! 23:21:13 catchy name 23:21:13 kmc: oh wow, impressive 23:21:25 oerjan: misspelling of "gyrates" hth 23:21:35 ah. 23:21:54 OK uh 23:22:02 I'm confused by my own programming language 23:22:13 what's confusing 23:22:17 I'm trying to write an implementation of cat, which reads one char, spits it out, and repeats 23:22:37 however since variable state changes the interpretation of the source code in DevPerc, I'm getting confused :P 23:22:40 i wrote on this page upside down accidentally so now i turned it over and all my As look like foralls 23:22:40 kmc: hahaha 23:22:43 it's ""confusing "" " " 23:22:47 kmc: what happens if you collide a branch name and a commit hash? 23:22:55 well we just found out........... 23:23:02 a) you confuse the everliving shit out of the Mozilla build bot 23:23:08 b) you confuse a bunch of humans too 23:23:14 c) you look like a dumbass in front of GitHub support staff 23:23:15 well okay yes 23:23:19 ajf: isn't it just GET A PUT A IF 1 PROCEEDTO 0 23:23:35 seems like it should default to the commit 23:23:38 since how else do you access it 23:23:44 Bike: No 23:23:51 GET A 23:23:51 DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE 23:23:51 PUT M 23:23:59 elliott: yeah and you could still name the branch as refs/heads/350c0a61c6c705b2f4c1b095064ee337f17a1c9e 23:24:07 but it's not surprising that Git makes the wrong UI choice 23:24:14 Will do the first character. Now I have to do some sort of circus so that "A" means "A" again and "GET A" will work 23:24:19 oh and somehow correct "M" 23:24:32 ajf: what's wrong with mine... 23:24:57 Bike: In devperc, if you change the value of a variable, it changes the character it reads in the sourcecode 23:25:05 yes. 23:25:19 oh. i see. 23:25:31 once you've done "GET A" you can't refer to A as A 23:25:31 :D 23:25:52 in fact, if they inputted a lowercase character, it's a syntax error! 23:26:20 so can't you just do DEFINE M TO M next 23:26:25 yeah 23:27:27 also, there are no digits here. Only English numerical constants. So you can't use a letter that's in the name of a numerical constant! 23:27:37 yes yes 23:28:43 ajf: what about doing DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE \ GET M \ PUT M instead? 23:29:48 hey you know the way a cone is just a natural transformation from the diagonal functor 23:29:51 p. great imo 23:30:16 oerjan: uhh 23:30:27 you still have to repair M, though. 23:30:30 no you can't do that 23:30:39 since now that last line is PUT 23:30:59 no, shouldn't the GET M become GET A? 23:31:28 yes 23:31:39 oh, right 23:32:00 Maybe it would be good to simplify this somewhat, both the syntax and the evaluation semantics. 23:32:13 hmm 23:32:23 oh, oerjan's thing works 23:32:35 Bike: simplyify the syntax? Then it wouldn't be hard! :P 23:32:42 it's intentionally verbose :D 23:32:57 well, you could make it hard in a rigorous way, in order to make the real thing hard in a more interesting way. 23:44:10 shouldn't DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE, GET M, PUT M, IF ONE PROCEEDTO ONE - work? 23:44:37 because it doesn't 23:45:00 no, because next time around M is something else 23:45:03 oh. I see why it doesn't 23:45:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:45:07 it could be E or something that messes up the rest of the program 23:45:12 GET X ...X is an expression evaluating to the name of a register. 23:45:28 hence, in source, M -> A, then A evaluates to 23:45:36 so, let's redefine Z 23:46:22 I think programming would be pretty easy if DEFINE evaluated its first operand. Then you could just refer to variables indirectly with numbers. 23:46:48 ...you actually could do that 23:46:53 I never considered that 23:47:03 oh crap 23:47:09 lol. 23:47:14 programming in devperc may be semi-practical 23:47:18 curse you, Bike! :P 23:47:32 i am the wettest blanket. 23:48:12 oh 23:48:15 I got it to work 23:48:49 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:48:59 DEFINE M TO SIXTYFIVE, DEFINE Z TO SEVENTYSEVEN, GET Z, PUT M, IF ONE PROCEEDTO TWO 23:49:00 -!- Frooxius has joined. 23:50:48 Great, now I actually have a useful program example 23:51:00 -!- tertu has joined. 23:55:08 oo, what's that, COBOL? 23:55:21 reminded me more of ti-86. 23:56:52 Lumpio-: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator 23:57:11 DEFINE M TO SIXTYTEN, DEFINE Z TO TWOISM 23:57:34 kmc++ 23:57:46 lol 23:58:31 :)