< 1374969678 436059 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the mirrors act like they do in Floyd's Bumpershot (a game I have read about somewhere; I haven't played). Adding the other pieces of that game and of Black Box game, can make it a generalized version of those game; I already said the computer tells you ahead of time how many mirrors, how many arrows, etc; you could also make the user configure the possible range of how many. Now it can make a superset of these games. < 1374969725 262185 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374970170 814384 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also the undead puzzle from tatham's collection that is a bit similar. < 1374970206 373793 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm didn't doesthiswork say something in the logs i wanted to quibble about :P < 1374970216 882633 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1374970227 602695 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've just forgotten what it was < 1374970245 92995 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably something about lambda calc fixed points < 1374970267 393886 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am addicted to Listerine PocketPak strips < 1374970346 473065 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right. i think the others shot that down for me. what i wanted to say is that the fixed point theorem doesn't apply to _typed_ lambda calculus, because the types are usually specifically made to avoid nontermination (without explicit recursion), which is essential to construct the usual diagonal argument. < 1374970698 844367 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1374970762 294105 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps equivalently, the fixed point theorem is incompatible with types that give you a curry-howard isomorphism with a consistent logic. < 1374970809 683800 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which looked like what you were trying to look at < 1374970832 683433 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1374970886 34098 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What have people used the fixed point theorem to prove? < 1374971138 84155 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1374971146 183869 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you can do arbitrary recursive computations? < 1374971174 877175 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1374971191 452315 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not aware of any more technical uses < 1374971265 934579 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it also destroyed church/curry's original attempts to do logic in lambda calculus/combinatory logic without any types < 1374971285 453393 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may be what you have rediscovered < 1374971305 342193 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is exactly the problem I was trying to understand < 1374971360 445390 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it does this in a way that is similar to how russell's paradox destroyed naive set theory, i think. in fact they are both diagonal arguments. < 1374971395 228113 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as are godel's incompleteness theorem and turing's halting problem proof < 1374971399 962490 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gödel < 1374971450 135463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a great deal of rampage and destruction from just one basic proof idea, there. < 1374971463 894068 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is wonderful < 1374971480 375554 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also the complexity hierarchy theorems, which might not be considered destructive. < 1374971523 396707 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the typed lambda calculus basically like what Hofstadter called "rule of detachment" and "fantasy rule" (also, as it says, often called the "Modus Ponens" and "Deduction Theorem")? < 1374971632 265835 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: um there's the curry-howard isomorphism with intuitionistic propositional logic terms in -> , those would both be rules of that so i suppose they are included... < 1374971654 6662 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1374971663 505681 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of intuitionistic logic, I know, not of classical < 1374971673 34914 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean application is like modus ponens and lambda is like the deduction theorem? < 1374971683 623745 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you look at what they do to types < 1374971685 596217 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1374971696 330143 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose so, yes < 1374971879 354369 :brainstorming!9742212f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.66.33.47 JOIN :#esoteric < 1374971934 507161 :brainstorming!9742212f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.66.33.47 PART :#esoteric < 1374971957 217805 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be the shortest possible sequent calculus which is Turing complete? < 1374972057 788173 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do Wang tiles remain Turing complete when generalized to different geometries? < 1374972073 469141 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect so < 1374972120 133630 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you restricted them to a finite area they wouldn't < 1374972153 820712 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know, I mean geometries which have infinite areas? < 1374972223 508362 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can embed 2d wang tiles in any such geometrty I would have to say yes they'd still be turing equivalent < 1374972344 326845 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what if the tiles are triangular or something like that? < 1374972461 118546 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stick two triangles together and you have a parallelogram. Tile the plane with this shape < 1374972641 450560 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know how to embed 2 dimensions in a one dimensional line) < 1374972665 769116 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, yes, you can make a parallelogram like that, if you add an extra color. < 1374972965 468189 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: i am pretty sure one-dimensional tiling is _not_ TC (should be a finite automaton, essentially) < 1374973094 208144 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I wonder what the minimum number of dimensions needed for a tiling to be TC. I think 1.5 is possible < 1374973340 619747 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure that fractal dimensions are compatible with tilings. < 1374973371 490339 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they are, though < 1374973509 773101 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the serpinski triangle could host a TC wang tiles. < 1374973595 995572 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*take out the 'a' < 1374973614 831239 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :**-a < 1374973674 12450 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1374974162 60349 :sacje!~sacre@unaffiliated/klet QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1374974296 715485 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are Wang tiles a sequent calculus? < 1374974335 156024 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what does it mean for a sequent calculus to be TC? Does it mean that there's a such-and-such which maps Turing machines onto statements in the calculus such that the statement is provable if and only if the machine halts? < 1374975186 529434 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the obvious interpretation, anyway < 1374975246 353749 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I don't know, maybe it would be possible to make a sequent calculus of Wang tiles but I don't know < 1374975284 784081 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Yes, that is what I mean by a sequent calculus to be TC (and I have made a set of sequent calculus rules which implement a Turing machine). < 1374975476 402941 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also made up a way to interpret a sequent calculus as an asymmetric game (although the initial state isn't a part of these rules; it must be decided separately somehow). Put the initial state at the bottom, and follow the rules going up. The first player's job is to select a rule and substitutions in it. The second player's job is to select one of the sequents above the line in that rule. Whoever has no legal move loses. < 1374975662 863067 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because it is Turing-complete, it is possible to result in a draw, and there isn't necessarily any way to know it is a draw, although sometimes it is possible to tell.) < 1374975845 138278 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a game semantics for linear logic. < 1374975939 818392 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't really know what its significance is. < 1374976007 127442 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of things and logics have game semantics, where you have a goal and things which both help and hinder you from reaching that goal. < 1374976063 657290 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that is a different kind of game semantics though. < 1374976110 172867 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like to call them 'adversarial models'. I think they're called that. < 1374976198 268404 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: now the question is, how do you make a program that will make qualifying and quantifying human knowledge into a logical framework that can be interpreted by computers as fun as a video game!?! < 1374976241 155645 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"trivial pursuit, forever" < 1374976329 344998 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are right, you can never make programming a computer as fun as farmville.. < 1374976368 685220 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i take that back, farmville sucks. < 1374976377 116354 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming is much better < 1374976385 57918 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought your first statement was sarcastic < 1374976402 647475 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a pie in the sky idea < 1374976421 316546 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :human knowledge isn't logical, and it can't be put into a logical framework < 1374976435 177383 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard of people happily doing repetitive tasks over and over without the slightest thought of automation. < 1374976436 416743 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can create a mapping of the illogic < 1374976440 267160 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :although perhaps you refer to the small subset of human knowledge that has explicit structural representations < 1374976484 768088 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can make some kinds of human knowledge into a logical framework, and some kinds of logical framework can be used for representing human knowledge, but actually it is different things, and their purposes can also vary a lot, and these also aren't the only two things. < 1374976543 692323 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :neurplasticity is pretty remarkable < 1374976577 131880 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, a lot of pieces of knowledge are not universally true; they come attached with probabilities. < 1374976589 515375 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :with priors, both explicit and implicit < 1374976604 552508 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right thats true, but there is a lot of data out there that could be structured but isnt. < 1374976626 888241 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the question is how do you make structuing that data appealing to a wide, non techinical audience? < 1374976634 60616 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :I 'know' that this car 100ft ahead of me is going to change into my lane in front of the car in front of me within 5 seconds < 1374976636 478002 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for vanities sake < 1374976638 372405 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1374976692 689538 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without a turn signal, in this case) < 1374976693 598433 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as the relationship between all dongs which contain a particular four note riff < 1374976694 18591 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if it helps (or is even the least bit relevant at all), I have made a sequent calculus for sokoban game. < 1374976708 418326 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in structuing data about yourself, to create a "social media collage" of the unstructued data available on the internet. < 1374976712 318367 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid swype < 1374976722 421659 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dongs < 1374976729 797869 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/dongs/songs/ < 1374976743 957052 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i like this one. < 1374976816 797710 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so although the collage may not have much structured data attached to it, it would be possible to publish this data structure and further integrate it with other structures that people have made. < 1374976845 244286 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, people assume universality a lot more than it actually exists < 1374976867 675388 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you do with the multiple incompatible strucctures obtainable from different social networks? < 1374976909 679850 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :language (both natural and constructed/computer, actually) flattens it into communicable form. Very very restrictive. < 1374976911 346371 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, so im trying to see if it is possible to have a semantic network of information slowly built by individual actors < 1374976951 165589 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could create a judgement that "obama is the president". although that would obviously have to have some sort of symbolic representation. < 1374976977 175599 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that like i said earlier, it would even be open to vanity statements. such as "this is a picture of what i had for lunch" < 1374977002 201462 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now you have all this associations that are only semi structured at this point < 1374977030 257315 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do these "judgments" relate to intuitionistic type theory? Or the unstructured information ("intuitions")? < 1374977037 117807 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interesting part comes from when a large amount of people agree on the symbolic representation that "obama is the president" < 1374977108 888932 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even the minor unimportant details as affirming symbolically that your firend did indeed have what she said for lunch < 1374977123 637069 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus adding more weight to the judgement, or proposition < 1374977195 847237 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any thoughts? < 1374977206 790743 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is going on < 1374977214 5682 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, im talking about my crazy idea < 1374977239 224366 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already asked questions :-( < 1374977291 967753 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff < 1374977296 37085 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, ok so the most important part is the consensus on symbolic representation of our "common knoledge" in the world. the social media bit is essientially just a hook. < 1374977299 751094 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: ^ < 1374977322 515920 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's where you have to get information from. And people deploy different "personae" on different networks. < 1374977349 486843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if Cyc is still around < 1374977355 944296 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. its not like a spider, but more of a knowledge base. < 1374977415 24806 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what im trying to wrestle with is appeal to a general audience. < 1374977497 100587 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more generally, how you would interact with the system. so would you be presented with information that affirms or refutes your collection of symbolic expressions. < 1374977574 787386 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so say you decide to claim that "obama is not the president". it would display the fact that you did, and the cout of times that that symbol has been affirmed and possibly a list of the people that publically affirm that symbol < 1374977618 127897 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now you have the affirmation of the symbol that obama is NOT the president. so obviously there will be magnitued more people affirming that he is the president < 1374977658 737386 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is a shared truth value associated with him being the president. say 99% say he is and 1% say he isnt. < 1374977678 8106 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thats boring < 1374977722 236470 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, it will be interesting what comes out of it, but in essence its just a massive collection of abstract representations of fact < 1374977742 966449 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now how do you present this, or more specifically what? < 1374977808 451040 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously there are some simple things, like creating a profile of the user. and finding individuals that have said similar things, and then present things that these similar individuals have said < 1374977851 187378 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so essentially it would be similar to "collaborative filtering". < 1374977893 185628 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem with systems like those is that you are only shown things that agree with your worldview. < 1374978001 858081 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, like i was saying. this is kind of a pie in the sky idea.. < 1374978038 670100 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think its on a thread that we have been attempting to follow for a long time.. < 1374978062 881126 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean OWL, RDF and all those technologies failed hardcore < 1374978098 411073 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i want to see how to make that an integral part of the general publics experience of the internet. < 1374978131 216006 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1374978181 366923 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best successes that have been had so far with human-like learning are neural nets < 1374978200 175521 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, semisupervised deep learning architectures < 1374978264 393812 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, ive heard similiar things too. i have some experience with NN, they are really interesting. sadly they like all models still suffer from the curse of dimensionality < 1374978289 988353 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you heard about hierarchical temporal models? < 1374978304 298851 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are really interesting for "streaming" sources of data < 1374978342 77854 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's mainly where unsupervised pretraining makes NNs amazing < 1374978342 370140 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can pic out not just static patterns, but temporal ones as well. its very interesting. < 1374978354 943523 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :regarding dimensionality curse < 1374978403 782123 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I've seen interesting applications of NNs embedded in Bayes nets/fields < 1374978410 334525 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :to represent temporal things < 1374978420 579789 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1374978426 943406 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have any links? < 1374978459 475266 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdIURAu1-aU < 1374978488 497815 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, there might be an updated version of this recently released... /me will have to watch it < 1374978490 293122 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! < 1374978495 79111 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive see that video < 1374978506 290346 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, its been a while though.. < 1374978511 321295 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill have to rewatch it < 1374978529 370629 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i think the HTM is also mentioned in a google tech talk < 1374978553 689386 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a talk? hm, do you know which one? < 1374978559 570109 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess not < 1374978560 913256 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://youtu.be/48r-IeYOvG4 < 1374978878 43773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :22nd IOCCC opens August 1 http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey!: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric & http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1374978893 889466 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :22nd IOCCC opens August 1: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey!: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric & http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ < 1374979179 374345 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A description of the Unicode character set, written in the Georgian language, phonetically transcribed into mirror-reversed Devanagari script. Footnotes to the text are in Cree (phonetically transcribed in Kannada script), Occitan (transcribed in Pitman shorthand), Xhosa (transcribed into a variant of Braille normally used for Russian), Pennsylvania German (transcribed in Glagolitic script), Miqmaq hieroglyphs, an unidentified language transcr < 1374979213 143223 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :an unidentified language transcr < 1374979290 236207 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it somewhat unlikely they could get together enough speakers to make that with any better than google translate quality < 1374979313 78748 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i doubt google translate does cree. < 1374979668 62690 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: How are they going to do that? < 1374979690 195248 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's they < 1374979746 633121 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I hoped you know. < 1374979805 513791 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: when i say say "an unidentified language transcr" it's suppose to be a hint to you that your message got cut off, hth < 1374979814 323316 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*supposed < 1374979884 743542 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think it was important, but "ibed into vertical Manchu script, and several unidentified scripts." < 1374980081 514810 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL HOW CAN WE KNOW IT'S UNIMPORTANT IF YOU DON'T PASTE IT HTH < 1374980123 694293 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't, but I can. < 1374980149 844153 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, at least, you can believe it to be unimportant to you. < 1374980187 367633 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS A FLAGRANT VIOLATION OF MY CONSTITUENT RIGHTS HTH < 1374980222 956126 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking away your natural rights k < 1374980279 524370 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: that's just not right < 1374980331 437866 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :help Amazon is recommending Hello Kitty things to me < 1374980350 65623 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also College Living Essentials < 1374980373 194349 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there Hello Kitty College Living Essentials < 1374980438 727061 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably twin XL bedsheets < 1374980680 235184 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: Are you in college? < 1374980719 817180 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know about Z-machine? The new version of my Z-machine assembler is now released. < 1374980774 485209 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I want to make up a SSA intermediate language for use with Z-machine, and some Haskell library for making Z-machine files. < 1374982196 497902 :JesseH!~JesseH@ip72-210-71-131.mc.at.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374982335 938681 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you add reflection does it become an S-machine? < 1374982472 208137 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats doesthiswork -----### < 1374982519 468907 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: I have never heard of such a thing. < 1374982697 108365 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it was just a bad joke. When you look at Z in the mirror it looks like S < 1374982966 650254 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork has this special curve-smoothing mirror < 1374983036 468289 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip hexagons < 1374983043 958852 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hexagonal wang tiles would be cool tho < 1374983054 819657 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am addicted to Listerine PocketPak strips < 1374983373 333061 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: nop < 1374983426 779245 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a girl from 13 to 48? < 1374983487 369662 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not then I don't know why it suggests hello kitty college things. < 1374983511 314719 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I was looking at tea spoons < 1374983528 590440 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know there are Hello Kitty spoon sets? < 1374983555 199259 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they good? < 1374983581 337090 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, check the reviews. < 1374983584 81117 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I did, there are hello kitty every thing. Sanrio milks their cash cow for all she's worth < 1374983595 42457 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :cash kitten < 1374983605 803369 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone loves cat milk. < 1374983806 256156 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1374983810 80273 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: It isn't quite "S". < 1374984181 251735 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1374984268 301330 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374984481 631192 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, see if you can make hexagonal wang tiles too. And other shapes. < 1374984670 252051 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could ordinary wang tiles be made into just shapes (no colors) (like puzzle pieces)? Such as different shape for each color (according to the direction, too) and the shapes are made so it also won't fit if it is rotated or flipped. < 1374984788 701760 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1374984826 322387 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1374984848 161938 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for the short answer but it takes longer to describe than to imagine < 1374984937 211667 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: one way is to code matchingness as having corresponding zigzag patterns on their bordering edges < 1374984992 264182 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can encode 0 as /\ and 1 as __ say < 1374985028 774605 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and \/ for the matching one < 1374985094 902027 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apart for the zigzag patterns the rest can still be squares and whatever < 1374985103 973092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*from < 1374985322 186182 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes those are the kind of things I was thinking of < 1374985366 53362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you use a different set of patterns for each edge, such that the opposite edges will fit together though, I think. < 1374985454 473022 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes that's what i mean < 1374985514 553219 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helps if you have asymmetrical teeth, but those are hard to show in text. < 1374985548 624382 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: Yes I thought of that too. < 1374985581 753003 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right you could do that, although i was thinking you could just fix the direction by having /\ on one end and __ on the other. oh hm __ may not be the best choice. < 1374985603 723661 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : /\ and |^| perhaps < 1374985657 213965 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the nice thing about trinary is it has a direction < 1374985660 593497 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well that's a small detail. < 1374985709 273822 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cut out the outline of "GREEN" along the edge < 1374985732 883599 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brilliant in it's simplicity < 1374985744 774899 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "TEAL" and "COSMIC LATTE" (you may need a fine craft knife for this one) < 1374985808 394550 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that _is_ brilliant :P < 1374986297 524411 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://25.media.tumblr.com/a81cc3de8df6eab463ac666079105112/tumblr_mqmppwmOZA1qjr3c0o4_250.jpg < 1374987314 219407 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx bookmarked < 1374988489 258980 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1374988495 868807 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1374988904 538855 :nooodl__!~nooodl@91.177.103.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1374988923 253423 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.103.163 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1374988993 34630 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1374988998 179407 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1374989267 920010 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1374989273 49844 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1374989375 401487 :nooodl__!~nooodl@91.177.103.163 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1374989747 555375 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make a board game that exercises skill at organizing things the same way you have to do for a program. < 1374989774 851035 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would such a thing be made? < 1374989842 357188 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, my best idea so far is some puzzle peices that each turn you have to use to make a structure that satisfies that rule < 1374989977 451219 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because jigsaw puzzles have the dynamic of organizing pieces < 1374989995 320619 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm having trouble thinking of the right sort of rules < 1374990135 449142 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know either. < 1374990525 165383 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also the necessity of organizing a program is only learned when you have to keep modifying it to match the changed plans < 1374990543 293700 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think that would be a fun game too < 1374990616 173978 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1374990653 219008 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374990749 444579 :Bike_!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374990834 992669 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: ghint < 1374990928 154644 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1374991505 134042 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes a program might be organized before it is put into the computer. < 1374991611 410319 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note to self: What I have been considering to be "Moonlight Sonata" is just the first part of Moonlight Sonata < 1374992268 320049 :Bike_!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fyi that's true of like every "classical" piece of music you know < 1374992272 347436 :Bike_!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net NICK :Bike < 1374992316 856562 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything is true of every classical piece of music you know < 1374992375 476012 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classical music often has multiple parts; in what I have seen, if there are three parts, the first and third parts are with the same key but the second part may be of a different key, and often shorter, too. < 1374992532 935879 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :15 minutes is the whole thing right? < 1374992613 788652 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1374992805 860198 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1374992841 998944 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1374993032 583540 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1374993056 355415 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 NICK :Guest97377 < 1374993070 819296 :stuntaneous!~stuntane@211.30.196.14 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1374993092 428312 :stuntaneous!~stuntane@c211-30-196-14.artrmn3.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1374993458 598543 :Guest97377!~CADD@12.227.104.109 NICK :CADD < 1374996040 589030 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1374996844 908598 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1374996862 978963 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once somebody made up a global enchantment card (for Magic: the Gathering) called "Nirvana" with the text "Goblins cannot reach Nirvana." I made up a meaning for this card, although it would hardly ever actually do anything. < 1374996998 188852 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the Magic: the Gathering cards programming language I had the idea of, would exist and would be able to treat "reach" as a verb, then if you enter it as "Goblin=s cannot reach ~" then it might be able to understand it, too. < 1374997678 450682 :dessos_!~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374997685 833873 :dessos!~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1374997961 229885 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1374998033 996367 :douglass!~thiotimol@home.pointlesstopology.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1374998330 47735 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374998435 921717 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what zzo38's opinion of Magic the Gathering Online is < 1374999066 744961 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1374999559 471030 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1374999908 864982 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1374999917 81601 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morning! < 1374999983 643913 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1375000132 391643 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.113 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1375000213 201723 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Feeling bright and happy and sober there, I guess? < 1375000221 677222 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1375000225 635511 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Barely hung over at all < 1375000236 97864 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good genes, I guess. < 1375000266 501705 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think last night I assumed I'd have forgotten a lot more < 1375000289 131070 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I left myself a bunch of notes < 1375000295 990847 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I remember what I wrote on the notes < 1375000406 809471 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I met someone called Panda < 1375001128 395476 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1375001200 770889 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what about the Magic: The Gathering Online eXchange < 1375001234 543733 :iamfishhead1!~jgoldste@home.pointlesstopology.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1375001249 727110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome iamfishhead1 < 1375001251 904692 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1375001255 313254 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09iamfi07shhead1:03 Welcome t04o the inter14nat12ional hub03 11for eso09ter03ic programming langu12age desig02n and de04pl09oyment! For more infor12mation13, c05heck out our wiki11:14 http://esolang04s.org/wiki/M07ain_Page. (For the oth09er kind 10of esot02eric09a11,10 try #esoteric on irc13.d09al.net.) < 1375001277 900007 :iamfishhead1!~jgoldste@home.pointlesstopology.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi shachaf < 1375001296 798835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiamfishhead1 < 1375001446 12683 :iamfishhead1!~jgoldste@home.pointlesstopology.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me. myself and I < 1375001471 996730 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: good meowrning? < 1375001485 706902 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better than I expected < 1375001552 773902 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You? < 1375001757 326009 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fell asleep for a nap at 7 and then suddenly it was 2 < 1375002196 298236 :iamfishhead1!~jgoldste@home.pointlesstopology.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1375002253 69324 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1375002288 151730 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that means you had 5 more hours of sleep than me :( < 1375002320 177947 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww :< < 1375002915 94864 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1375002932 332125 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1375003043 837238 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad you're feeling well Taneb :) < 1375003064 231116 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1375003085 302768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kmc < 1375003089 273624 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi shachaf < 1375003100 164756 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope my friends are all okay < 1375003287 555292 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1375003412 688109 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnight! < 1375003431 958542 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, apparently one of the categories for the UK censorship thing is "esoteric material" they're onto us ;_; < 1375003476 142599 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as hexham doesn't start censoring things too < 1375003588 553981 :Frooxius_!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1375003759 176012 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1375003764 953999 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodnight, kmc < 1375003819 177715 :Frooxius_!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Client Quit < 1375004465 948473 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1375004684 185353 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1375005156 475091 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375006033 3784 :sacje!~sacre@unaffiliated/klet JOIN :#esoteric < 1375008179 910883 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375008357 867055 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1375008542 972638 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375010048 816865 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, clang-analyzer actually found a bug, if you used a mode less than zero or larger than 5 (invalid values) to FILE O it would access uninitialized memory when trying to clean up the already allocated file handle. Heh < 1375010099 898030 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, In total it found 11 items, one of them has a path length of 33 and is inside the genx library. Trying to figure out what is going on there now. < 1375010261 96643 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1375010365 19054 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:ae81:12ff:fe32:878a JOIN :#esoteric < 1375011064 45617 :carado_!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375011121 984365 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:ae81:12ff:fe32:878a QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1375011298 960489 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The analyzer always gives me a dozen "uninitialized argument value" errors that I don't care about :-/ < 1375012344 386723 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiora: did you see this quote about the "on-by-default" filters I pasted in here a few days ago? < 1375012347 398441 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"They have negotiated with the government and agreed on a system called "Active Choice +" in which customers opt in for filters [...] The leaked letter [...] suggests: "Without changing what you will be offering (ie active-choice +), the prime minister would like to be able to refer to your solutions [as] 'default-on'"." < 1375012359 894827 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty great < 1375013571 8063 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.113 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1375013683 875294 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm, not much of that for me. I have two false positives in the funge space write-to-file-in-text-mode code, where the analyzer appears to simply fail at basic arithmetics. < 1375013774 746624 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and I have one real bug (but that doesn't affect me) in the getline-code I took from gnulib or glibc or some such, where it can leak memory if a realloc to grow a buffer fails. But that doesn't affect me since I always provide an already allocated buffer I believe < 1375013805 380870 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can add an assert to make the analyzer shut up about stuff like that < 1375013818 763040 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tried, but no luck currently < 1375013830 34646 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifdef __clang_analyzer__ < 1375013830 268147 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :1065 assert(offset->x < maxx); < 1375013830 268236 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :1066 assert(lastspace == maxx - offset->x); < 1375013830 268281 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :1067 #endif < 1375013830 268324 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :1068 for (funge_cell x = offset->x; x < maxx; x++) { < 1375013831 81292 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1375013837 470870 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even with that it doesn't see that loop as taken < 1375013840 220022 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea why < 1375013856 163903 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant for the realloc thing < 1375013863 531373 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh that, right, possibly < 1375013903 934299 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why #ifdef them out? < 1375013956 351617 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to http://clang-analyzer.llvm.org/faq.html#use_assert that first assert should work for that but oh well < 1375013959 452554 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, because those asserts are inside a loop, and since they were loop invariant I first put them outside the outermost loop, but since that didn't help I tried putting them inside instead < 1375013962 342150 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not working either < 1375013978 691454 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I agree, the first one should work < 1375013980 601464 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't < 1375014021 430721 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it matter if they're inside a loop, do you leave asserts in release builds or something < 1375014048 509396 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, In RelWithDebInfo builds, but not in full Release no < 1375014055 874638 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway they didn't work for the analyzer anyway < 1375014070 785218 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :So meh, giving up on trying to tell it about the false positives < 1375014086 696293 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed all the real issues anyway, don't really care about there being 3 false positives in the code. < 1375014160 74854 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where did you get those uninit arg value errors from btw? < 1375014184 82322 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, some sort of example code or such < 1375014184 781541 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In mushspace < 1375014195 333017 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not false positives, I just don't care about them < 1375014202 228887 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example code: int x; f(x); :-P < 1375014210 791152 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then f() doesn't read x < 1375014215 419161 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that doesn't look well defined to me, unless f is a macro < 1375014235 623086 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAICT it shouldn't matter as long as f doesn't read it < 1375014252 855880 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pretty sure it isn't well defined to call with an uninitialized l-value, since the calling convention would end up reading it and putting it in a register or such < 1375014258 304626 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could pass a pointer to x though < 1375014284 343650 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not 100% certain though < 1375014298 761187 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible, I haven't found anything specific in the standard though < 1375014303 459441 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1375014317 668113 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh geez < 1375014322 218451 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised what I should write shiro 2 in! < 1375014323 425303 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rust < 1375014323 964087 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway why pass the argument if f doesn't need it anyway? < 1375014331 78310 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way i can beat Deewiant and still be a hipster < 1375014337 841819 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how far did you get with shiro 1 anyway? < 1375014369 298892 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Basically to simplify the code since it needs it sometimes < 1375014375 543913 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: um, it passed pure mycology except for like one annoying file IO technicality I didn't want to fix, and implemented like 15-20 fingerprints. < 1375014383 428163 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah < 1375014384 406717 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with varying degrees of Mycology-passingness, but fairly good on the whole < 1375014392 314271 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was missing a couple of fingerprints to run fungot iirc < 1375014392 555964 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: " fnord", ou " fnord" seems to not parse them well. < 1375014397 828161 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fair enough < 1375014432 191228 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about the stuff that mycology doesn't test? Like text mode for o. < 1375014435 688954 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: is mushspace at the point where you don't really want to compete with it with a GC yet :p < 1375014443 608315 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that was probably broken < 1375014445 428026 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i/o are annoying < 1375014460 594147 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, quite so, text mode o especially < 1375014470 199498 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you need to strip trailing ws from the end of each line < 1375014487 216348 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Depends on your GC? I dunno :-P < 1375014523 89920 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I just thought of a more efficient way to do it... Except it will be even more complicated to write the code for. < 1375014599 118104 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does a GC have to do with mushspace anyway? < 1375014687 604764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, pauses. < 1375014782 560256 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1375014902 940797 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCs tend to cause them. < 1375014933 312358 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes < 1375014949 537078 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, are you using a GC? < 1375014990 352728 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I think foo x; f(x) is unspecified, but if x is a partially initialized struct I think it's still fine, hmm < 1375014992 397088 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No < 1375015009 78548 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense since you said you were aiming for performance iirc < 1375015010 343342 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1375015032 990291 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does Vorpal understand how a GC could harm performance when talking to Deewiant but not when talking to me?????? < 1375015154 433448 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the initial cause was some parsing confusion on "want to compete with it with a GC". I first parsed that as him competing with it + a GC against something. < 1375015240 612885 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh. okay :P < 1375016023 274656 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1375016311 62040 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: How do you make a partially initialized struct? < 1375016366 119274 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uninitialized, and set a couple of members, I guess. < 1375016441 777914 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or initialize it with { .foo = bar } < 1375016448 399910 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not partially initialized. < 1375016460 878268 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well clang's analyzer claims it is < 1375016472 78759 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's talking out of its ass, then. < 1375016475 699725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If there are fewer initializers in a brace-enclosed list than there are elements or members of an aggregate -- the remainder of the aggregate shall be initialized implicitly the same as objects that have static storage duration." < 1375016578 833242 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh whoops, it's actually referring to a struct member of the struct, my bad < 1375016703 470562 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I guess the version stating almost the same thing few paragraphs up, "-- all subobjects that are not initialized explicitly shall be initialized implicitly the same as --", is more relevant. < 1375016723 935401 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good thing that's there, otherwise presumably struct { int a, b; } f = { .a = 42, .a = 69 }; would leave b uninitialized. < 1375017194 966721 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually this thing just seems to be confused < 1375017334 66467 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I concur with the foo x; f(x) being okay for a partially uninitialized struct -- "the value of struct or union object is never a trap representation, even though the value of a member of the structure or union may be a trap representation" -- and apparently so does the committee in DR222: http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_222.htm < 1375017393 407140 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was reading C11 which has those DR222 changes < 1375018978 316970 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Rebooting < 1375019859 281054 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1375021624 799576 :pikhq_!~pikhq@24-107-196-13.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1375021652 68875 :pikhq!~pikhq@24.107.196.13 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1375023052 308028 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.103.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375023491 466423 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1375023671 545404 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly is a trap representation? < 1375023708 28753 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "an object representation that need not represent a value of the object type" < 1375023866 749634 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right < 1375023880 681192 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, would null be considered one of those? < 1375023887 109583 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think null is sort of a trap representation? < 1375023895 387543 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if NaN counts too. < 1375023917 313934 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, null is a valid value that a pointer can have, and likewise NaN for floats < 1375023932 669055 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, So on common systems there are no trap representations? < 1375023943 565159 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certain object representations need not represent a value of the object type. If the stored value of an object has such a representation and is read by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined. If such a representation is produced by a side effect that modifies all or any part of the object by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is < 1375023945 264503 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined. Such a representation is called a trap representation. < 1375023971 146559 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Not on x86 afaik < 1375023974 80284 :aloril_!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-54f97e-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1375023996 580966 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You can set the FPU to trap on some stuff but I wouldn't consider that part of this < 1375024053 897701 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what platforms do have it hm? < 1375024079 67705 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6725809/trap-representation oh, huh, this sems to explain some of it (?) < 1375024132 682400 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's nasty < 1375024134 650830 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fake values < 1375024177 804419 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess one example might be "negative 0" in a ones' complement number format? < 1375024188 717097 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1375024245 246082 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the SO answer gives that as an example < 1375024249 754113 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, oh, the standard does < 1375024266 181156 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently signalling NaNs remain undefined in C11 so those count < 1375024406 43829 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some combinations of padding bits might generate trap representations, for example, if one padding bit is a parity bit. Regardless, no arithmetic operation on valid values can generate a trap representation other than as part of an exceptional condition such as an overflow, and this cannot occur with unsigned types." < 1375024433 500889 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1375024711 640001 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An integer may be converted to any pointer type. Except as previously specified, the result is implementation-defined, might not be correctly aligned, might not point to an entity of the referenced type, and might be a trap representation." < 1375024806 659196 :aloril_!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-54f97e-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1375026858 835530 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1375026918 533053 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375026952 702257 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning < 1375027391 991971 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1375027768 885740 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375027783 510596 :Lumpio-!~matti@89-166-34-164.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1375027784 496113 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1375027806 502280 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375028015 913178 :Lumpio-!~matti@89-166-34-164.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1375028582 857996 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1375028921 806308 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375029315 680285 :atriq!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375029374 811446 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-161-33.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1375029642 910888 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1375029887 413238 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning < 1375030377 925277 :atriq!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net NICK :Taneb < 1375031163 294521 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375031311 794283 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1375032870 84337 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1375032890 409243 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1375032910 875400 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1375032930 348876 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1375032936 478017 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1375033755 629443 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375034939 921522 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. They make a distinction between undefined behavior and unspecified behavior. < 1375034960 734582 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "unspecified" means "something predictable happens, but it could be platform-dependent"? < 1375034966 981427 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So undefined behavior means "the implementation is allowed to do literally anything when this happens". < 1375034973 307004 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :while undefined means "this should never happen, code is wrong if it does this, demons could shoot out your nose"? < 1375034984 689073 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the latter is "the compiler can assume this doesn't happen"? < 1375034998 597549 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And unspecified behavior means "the implementation has some leeway in choosing what the result is when this happens". < 1375035005 282552 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... < 1375035007 751545 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds right. < 1375035203 932871 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's undefined behaviour, unspecified behaviour, and implementation-defined behaviour < 1375035226 545555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference between unspecified and implementation-defined? < 1375035268 813451 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undefined = anything can happen; unspecified = there are many specified alternatives but which one happens at any given time can vary < 1375035336 542174 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"use of an unspecified value, or other behavior where this International Standard provides two or more possibilities and imposes no further requirements on which is chosen in any instance" < 1375035367 458011 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unspecified value = "valid value of the relevant type where this International Standard imposes no requirements on which value is chosen in any instance") < 1375035381 622692 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(implementation-defined value = "unspecified value where each implementation documents how the choice is made") < 1375035430 946401 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, my lazy expression reducer is pretty inefficient, I guess. < 1375035436 202250 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1375035448 352493 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so implementation-defined = unspecified but it has to be consistent within an implementation? < 1375035463 630549 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that it can potentially traverse the entire expression every time a reduction step is performed. < 1375035473 112664 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unspecified by the standard, specified by the implementation < 1375035503 383061 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Depends on what you mean by consistent, I guess; it has to be documented < 1375035512 932994 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably hard to enforce though :p < 1375035521 943055 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it could still be e.g. selection by /dev/random < 1375035533 502577 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: okay so it is just a documentation requirement and nothing more < 1375035552 242343 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unspecified behavior where each implementation documents how the choice is made" < 1375035560 593886 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1375035578 203444 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intelligent way to do this would probably be to mark each sub-expression as to whether it's already been evaluated or not. < 1375035582 932202 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible that there are further consistency requirements for specific things, I guess < 1375035584 754986 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jwz.org/images/gm.gif cow < 1375035678 935070 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sure is a lot of agitation. < 1375035724 537444 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that cow were real, would it really slosh that much? < 1375035756 654236 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out whether they did a good job with subsurface scattering or not. < 1375035821 181952 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perfect cube tutorial http://i.imgur.com/fctEUfv.gif < 1375036142 105994 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2010618696/dkss-reality-death-maze < 1375036252 882990 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone pledged over $1,000 on that. < 1375036453 834256 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be the people funding their own kickstarter to make it look like it's supporte. < 1375036469 834848 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily they get their money back < 1375036500 34614 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, most of it. < 1375036528 334714 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Help us support the Portal! Please fund DKS's Reality Death Maze to help us open our dimensional portal." er < 1375036565 635832 :Deewiant!~deewiant@deewiant.iki.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only most of it? < 1375037779 518191 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: I prefer twisted cubes < 1375038179 641325 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@141.70.114.6 QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1375038242 458287 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are all beginnings non-sequiturs? < 1375038284 665544 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a question for fungot < 1375038284 978334 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: well there. fight about whether to play keen or watch demos. he didn't tell anything ( they don't) < 1375038975 812338 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having written a basic proto-Hylisk interpreter, suddenly I have no desire to use it. < 1375038990 49458 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hey Edward Kmett reads HPMOR < 1375039771 944546 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Harry Potter: Man on Rhea? < 1375039935 612097 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality < 1375039938 842882 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not such a fan of that story < 1375040050 132002 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because among other things genetics is a lot more interesting than presented there < 1375040150 83134 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:ae81:12ff:fe32:878a JOIN :#esoteric < 1375040153 832947 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:ae81:12ff:fe32:878a QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1375040184 73524 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:ae81:12ff:fe32:878a JOIN :#esoteric < 1375040323 72909 :carado_!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1375040584 984247 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:ae81:12ff:fe32:878a QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1375042650 304622 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1375042800 353821 :ssue__!uid5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hmexuawhppjkcqwg QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1375042835 603350 :Guest18414!uid11324@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-atlvekwrahpvrfhd QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1375042853 999371 :Guest18414!uid11324@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cayzksjyjpqhxzwa JOIN :#esoteric < 1375043137 417279 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375043931 41241 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tracking the #haskell tag on Tumblr may not have been the best idea < 1375043939 560236 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one of the most multi-purpose tags there is < 1375043962 702419 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And half of the stuff that is the programming language is just links to things I've already seen < 1375044009 395537 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. The UI is real clunky, the code may be buggy, half of the features are missing and the compositing is all wrong, but here it is anyway: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_presence.html < 1375044011 231379 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1375044085 982961 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375044097 391222 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1375044116 975477 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti's is unusual < 1375044132 669109 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does show different things than the weekly and hourly graphs did < 1375044220 2112 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot doesn't have much of an hourly schedule either. < 1375044474 346434 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can calculate the mutual information between two nicks to see how similar their sleep schedules are < 1375044526 284481 :tertu!~tertu@65-128-181-81.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1375044573 812302 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :although kullback-divergance might be more fitting < 1375044587 592416 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it seems I lost my sleep schedule in 2009. < 1375044625 972420 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, i also like git more. https://twitter.com/molovo/status/360346792602259456 < 1375044661 383252 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375044680 867838 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know offhand how to make SVG's simple alpha compositing do the operation I wanted, which was to blend colors with uniform weights where they overlap. The current scheme of setting layer opacities to 1, 1/2, 1/3, ... from bottom to top does the right thing if there's a pixel in all layers, but it dims the non-bottom layers where they composit with the black background. Filter effects ... < 1375044686 868260 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... could probably do it, though. < 1375044803 303923 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc gained a sleep schedule mid 2012 < 1375044844 352651 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I remember that! < 1375044897 33619 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MKRY on the list of nicks. :/ < 1375044899 269996 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :taneb suddenly sprang into being in 2011 < 1375044929 68752 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1375044949 348175 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I've used the name "Taneb" since at least October 2007 < 1375044951 963476 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sleep schedule? What’s that? < 1375044964 463039 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I first used it July 2007 < 1375044978 268764 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect you are an irc bot ion < 1375044999 464093 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes you think you are an irc bot ion? < 1375045049 111167 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to do a lot of breakfast irc between about 9 and 11 < 1375045090 698994 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that there's a curious singular Taneb dot somewhere in September 2010. < 1375045103 423265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is good iirc < 1375045105 98078 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you pastelogs it < 1375045158 563486 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The weird thing is, I remember doing that, but I remember doing that in 2011 < 1375045197 252258 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can’t place p. much anything to a specific year, my sense of time is horrible. < 1375045277 898414 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2010-09-06#204051Taneb it seems that when Taneb appeared in 2010, I was... doing plots. < 1375045317 273876 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It definitely sounds like me < 1375045342 711183 :doesthiswork!~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you didn't come back for a year? < 1375045372 624665 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently! < 1375045381 567567 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it was a time-traveller impersonating me < 1375045386 434426 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for what purpose? < 1375045397 364036 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, to save the space-time continuum! < 1375045400 680255 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is Taneb and atriq merged in that graph? < 1375045454 896712 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I believe they are < 1375045457 633829 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, too < 1375045467 22526 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you ngevd too? < 1375045502 104350 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1375045508 75898 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rot13 atriq < 1375045512 324917 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :ngevd < 1375045534 142297 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I thought taneb was rot13 of atriq for some reason < 1375045542 753700 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My initials were ALMOST N. G. E. v. D < 1375045559 234854 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my parents thought that was too long and dropped the E (which stood for Eliot) < 1375045561 685717 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yes. < 1375045580 577872 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: 'Taneb': ['Taneb', 'Ngevd', 'atriq'], < 1375045602 464643 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't CakeProphet and kallisti be merged? Or am I misremembering? < 1375045681 947586 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I think that was a merging I was supposed to do but couldn't be bothered rerunning the statistics-collection system on the entire logs. (Don't have a merging tool for them.) < 1375045719 835148 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll get it next time. < 1375045749 614583 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1375045758 605069 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, I've been active in the channel for about as long as shachaf < 1375045929 870299 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And your schedules are pretty much complementary. Are you... are you shachaf? < 1375045953 749209 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a twist! < 1375045974 315436 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I read Homestuck and won't read OotS and he reads OotS and won't read Homestuck! < 1375046022 474355 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :When comparing two things, thanks to the crummy blending, setting the first to red and the second (dimmed one) to turquoise seems to be a reasonably good pair. (I'll fix it properly at some point.) < 1375046104 200295 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though sadly the layers aren't always in the order specified.) < 1375046257 76116 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can confirm that I am Taneb. < 1375046263 676132 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally called it < 1375046298 448186 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :More evidence that shachaf and I are one and the same: < 1375046303 407007 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf is not a rabbi < 1375046306 697382 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I am aware < 1375046313 906537 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, are you a rabbi? < 1375046325 296735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have we ever been seen in the same IRC channel together? < 1375046337 286490 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1375046338 776074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Nope. < 1375046344 136682 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither am I! < 1375046346 426872 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Taneb < 1375046348 278114 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards. (see also: d-modules) < 1375046365 400209 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? d-modules < 1375046367 807038 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them. < 1375046376 569757 :CADD!~CADD@12.227.104.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1375046392 388619 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? modules < 1375046393 987168 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :modules? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1375046394 186917 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e PRIVMSG #esoteric :69              | < 1375046394 386732 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e PRIVMSG #esoteric :69            o/`¯º < 1375046397 786478 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ring < 1375046399 723715 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them. < 1375046407 997673 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? differential operators < 1375046409 637466 :HackEgo!dlopen@libdl.so PRIVMSG #esoteric :differential operators? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1375046410 16632 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e PRIVMSG #esoteric :69                             | < 1375046410 216278 :myndzi!myndzi@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3d4e PRIVMSG #esoteric :69                           º¯`\o < 1375046443 696746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo checkmate < 1375047004 174442 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.113 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1375048739 252412 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-216-109.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1375048925 95171 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what a ~list is. < 1375048933 152849 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., what's the comonad corresponding to the list monad? < 1375048997 67480 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like it's... something that consumes an arbitrary number of items and then exits. < 1375049035 481242 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a comonad in Hask < 1375049041 783546 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like shachaf said some days ago < 1375049049 712036 :upgrayeddd!~uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-njbyhykoalzzswva QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1375049065 252304 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the comonad you get is in the "other category" of the adjunction that gives you a monad < 1375049082 324350 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, it's that other category. < 1375049083 804265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :State/Store is just a "happy coincidence" because the two functors involved are endofunctors on Hask < 1375049102 43178 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the comonad is in Mon < 1375049105 122562 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC extract is fold < 1375049111 43394 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what duplicate is but I recall it's boring < 1375049147 862054 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mon must be one of those... closed symmetric what-have-yous. < 1375049184 508469 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closed symmetric monoidal categories. < 1375049200 553465 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mon has monoid homomorphisms as morphisms < 1375049206 532517 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and monoids as objects < 1375049298 455708 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a monoidal category is one with a "tensor product" bifunctor which is associative with identity up to natural isomorphism. < 1375049332 12700 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it seems like the "usual tensor product" is just the cartesian product or something? < 1375049358 693206 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in particular, a ~list is just a list. < 1375049367 634502 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it now. < 1375049374 603253 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a monoidal element type, if you insist. < 1375049398 427881 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then now a closed monoidal category is one that has that currying thing. < 1375049439 357585 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a *symmetric* monoidal category is, uh... < 1375049578 131210 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently a braided monoidal category is one which is commutative and also satisfies some weird hexagon thing. < 1375049614 932472 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm, not quite commutative? < 1375049713 28191 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A symmetric monoidal category is one that actually is commutative? < 1375049807 600069 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay whatever. < 1375049865 159108 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so... yeah, what are the component functors of the list monad? < 1375049898 532142 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :They take Set to Mon and back to Set, aye? So, the free functor (is... is that a thing?) followed by the forgetful functor? < 1375049979 752660 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: free monoid < 1375049992 143923 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stuff. < 1375049997 715062 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked it out with shachaf once. < 1375049997 915195 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The free monoid functor? < 1375050001 704309 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately the comonad is boring. < 1375050021 921931 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't remember the exact details... < 1375050034 484852 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it looks like the comonad also pretty much makes lists, doesn't it? < 1375050057 681596 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A co-list of monoidal things is pretty much just a list of monoidal things. < 1375050160 658561 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Extract" just multiplies all the elements together. And "extend", that's the w a -> w (w a) thing, right? < 1375050169 35055 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1375050181 121789 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Client Quit < 1375050186 955100 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1375050242 310465 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, what's a monoid. How about the monoid of... things you can do with a pile of string. < 1375050244 890283 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a lovely monoid. < 1375050273 255734 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1375050282 439458 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then a Colist StringThing is a list of things you can do with a pile of string. "extract"ing that concatenates all those things together. < 1375050291 380047 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the things you can do with a pile of string actually form a category, not a monoid. < 1375050414 880757 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "extend", what's that supposed to do? < 1375050524 181778 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, so far, this seems completely unrelated to the linear logic dual of List I've come up with. < 1375050540 654091 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is: ~List a = Bottom & (a -o ~List a) < 1375050690 235939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1375050739 275433 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hum. In a closed monoidal category, must there exist a bifunctor & such that there's a natural transformation from A & B to A, and from A & B to B? < 1375050817 633871 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, in a symmetric monoidal category, must there be such and such? < 1375050942 706498 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, a closed symmetric monoidal category. < 1375050958 799028 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, rather, must there exist product objects? < 1375051424 849180 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"wanted to ask u guys - Markov Chans with lotto Numbers...good idea?" < 1375052108 275525 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. The category of quantum state spaces. < 1375052159 692160 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say this. Quantum state spaces where every state is required to be a mixture of finitely many pure states. < 1375052177 752731 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not actually communicating right now, am I; I'm just talking to myself out loud. < 1375052306 157921 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's be fun and drop the mixture of finitely many whatever. < 1375052342 80382 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, let's forget about the whole thing. < 1375052509 609647 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, here's what a ~list is in linear typing. It's actually quite simple. < 1375052520 986047 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an object that, given an arbitrary length, gives you a list of that length. < 1375052744 3378 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems obvious in retrospect. < 1375052826 620584 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey tswett, what's your favorite color? Does she know? < 1375052853 672073 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't seem to be giving me the context necessary to understand your questions. < 1375052924 680913 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :64133,918181,262626,0194823,753957192719394739109375728,281917466 < 1375052973 540712 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay. < 1375052986 792891 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is A. < 1375053084 861903 :Bike!~Glossina@67-5-251-178.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a color. < 1375053181 973562 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is the answer to the greater surrounding question. < 1375053392 249731 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's not meant to be a useful answer. It's more like a proof that all of the prerequisites for answering the greater surrounding question have been satisfied. < 1375054478 814366 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: are you deep thought < 1375054992 258121 :tswett!~tswett@ec2-23-23-86-149.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: A < 1375055101 512974 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What candies exist that are as deliciously minty as Listerine strips? < 1375055324 847642 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mint candy flavor = the worst hth < 1375055620 380280 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/member/yorick QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1375055647 980565 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Listerine strips taste so good