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00:24:45 <zzo38> Can you make bets on what happen next in Dungeons&Dragons game I play?
00:25:17 <madbr> Is it like 6th edition
00:25:25 <Bike> http://imgur.com/EU4mHlT this is me
00:25:51 <zzo38> madbr: Do you mean the Dungeons&Dragons game? No, it is 3.5 edition.
00:26:49 <zzo38> Session 38 is the latest one played and recorded.
00:27:21 <nooodl^> where are these recorded zzo38
00:27:38 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
00:27:46 <zzo38> nooodl^: There it is.
00:28:04 <madbr> bike : the missing link!
00:28:16 <Bike> i lied i'm a bike.
00:28:34 <madbr> looks like a gorilla tf
00:28:55 <zzo38> nooodl^: I have told them to add this for all of the `*list so you can write `? to check the informations. (If there is some missing, you can add some.)
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00:29:17 <ion> Oversight: Thank you for volunteering, citizen. http://youtu.be/RIuf1V1FhpY
00:30:41 <Bike> lol, benefit fraud.
00:32:11 <zzo38> Now maybe you can try to bet on this game?
00:32:19 <Bike> hahaha, the russia bit
00:32:48 <kmc> Bike: pls to tag nsfw
00:33:02 <Bike> was hoping you remembered the previous gay cuttlefish
00:33:26 <kmc> i don't remember gay cuttlefish, just crossdressing ones
00:33:31 <kmc> but I will look at this picture later
00:38:37 <madbr> zzo : ok how about, hmm
00:38:50 <madbr> dungeon crawl, a short fight, 1 x dead player
00:40:38 <zzo38> madbr: I doubt it, but you can bet how you want to. However, I have meant more specific kind of things, and mainly I mean noncombat things
00:41:16 <HackEgo> smlist (418): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
00:41:44 <madbr> zzo38 : no idea how you guys play so I'm going cold here :3
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00:42:16 <zzo38> madbr: it is recorded; you can read all of it (and maybe that gives you a clue?)
00:42:46 <madbr> oh, it's over IRC?
00:43:22 <zzo38> No. It is played without a computer, although I type everything on the computer afterward, including character sheets, footnotes, and a story text like as if it is a story in some book or something like that.
00:47:04 <madbr> kjugobe gets turned into a...
00:47:25 <zzo38> It is sort of like a play by mail chess, except that it isn't play by mail, and it isn't chess, and it involves far more sophisticated strategies than chess.
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00:50:01 <madbr> hm, what could he get transformed into
00:50:01 <Lumpio-> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex <- the asperger is strong in this
00:50:36 <zzo38> madbr: An elipsis?
00:50:55 <madbr> that sounds like it would hurt
00:50:59 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes, I am with Asperger, so I suppose that is why. I can improve it later of course
00:51:21 <Lumpio-> So am I, on paper at least
00:52:11 <kmc> and half the rest of this channel
00:52:48 <Bike> mood disorder superiority. down with personality disorders, bow before the superior disease
00:53:08 <zzo38> I should improve it later to fill in some omitted stuff and improve to make it a bit more like some novel, but still the same things as it is currently written rather than different.
00:53:59 <madbr> the more typical d&d transforms are, what
00:54:30 <madbr> undead? werewolfs? various mythical beasts?
00:54:53 <zzo38> Well, yes, I suppose those are the more typical ones.
00:55:17 <zzo38> But sometimes there is also temporary transformation.
00:55:38 <Bike> oh shit, autism is developmental, not personality
00:55:50 <Bike> what was i thinking...
00:56:25 <Fiora> Bike: and gosh, ~some~ of us are PDD-NOS, not AS!
00:56:45 <kmc> you're all special to me <3
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00:56:52 <Bike> now bow down before me
00:57:00 <Bike> uh did i say something bad
00:57:04 <mnoqy> oh looks like shachaf beat me to the punch
00:57:44 <mnoqy> don't worry it's lumpio's fault not yours
00:58:42 <zzo38> Lumpio-: But I don't really know how to read it to know it is asperger; can you tell me the example of how you will see it is asperger is strong in this?
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01:01:28 <zzo38> What aura is that? I don't see any aura.
01:04:18 <kmc> this is painful
01:08:40 <Lumpio-> Maybe you haven't trained enough yet
01:08:50 <kmc> Lumpio-: stop trolling zzo38
01:08:56 <kmc> zzo38: he's messing with you
01:09:10 <Lumpio-> But he's constantly trolling everybody
01:09:25 <kmc> i don't think so
01:09:39 <kmc> but anyway, when zzo38 talks we don't have 3 people part immediately
01:13:36 <kmc> 83 files changed, 1005 insertions(+), 932 deletions(-)
01:13:40 <kmc> welp this is going to be a pain to review
01:13:42 <kmc> and I'm not even done yet
01:23:21 <kmc> ok well anyway
01:24:10 <kmc> Lumpio-: I think people would appreciate it if you refrain from painting with broad strokes like this
01:24:41 <kmc> I don't think what you said was horrible or anything, but it's not what we want #esoteric to be
01:29:00 <Lumpio-> good grief did I hurt the aspies' feelings now?
01:30:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
01:30:13 <kmc> Lumpio-: don't talk like that.
01:31:14 <kmc> come back when you give a shit about your fellow human beings, I guess
01:31:15 -!- kmc has kicked Lumpio- Lumpio-.
01:31:19 <Bike> c'mon man, are you going to stuff people into lockers
01:31:28 -!- kmc has set channel mode: -o kmc.
01:31:57 <Bike> i'd say i don't get how people can seriously talk like that after having pop culture down their throats, but it's so common, so
01:32:02 <Bike> plus i probably do it sometimes.
01:34:52 <kmc> what's it got to do with pop culture
01:35:20 <Bike> well just "did i hurt your feelings", i kind of automatically hear that in the voice of the bully character in Interchangeable School Drama Show
01:37:50 <Sgeo> lambeth sounds like lambda
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01:43:24 <Lumpio-> Err, yeah, I think I'm done with this channel then.
01:43:31 <Lumpio-> Turned out to be #dramacentral, would never have believed.
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01:58:43 <Bike> kmc: http://blogs.plos.org/biologue/2013/08/08/what-does-peer-review-mean-when-applied-to-computer-code/ your employer is p. cool
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02:26:36 <Sgeo> shachaf: this may interest you, (Word of Burlew)
02:26:36 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15709954#post15709954
02:29:06 <shachaf> has oerjan seen it (and FireFly)
02:31:46 <shachaf> Sgeo: What happens to threads past page 6?
02:32:28 <oerjan> _now_ i've seen it hth
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02:40:45 <shachaf> Sgeo: did you know there's a post where he writes "Windstriker charges, striking V and trapping him between Miko and himself."
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03:35:30 <shachaf> Hmm, the ICFP contest looks like fun.
04:09:06 <doesthiswork> the nsa has a new website http://nsa.gov1.info/data/index.html
04:32:12 <Bike> @oeis 3,8,6,20,24
04:32:14 <lambdabot> Pisano periods (or Pisano numbers): period of Fibonacci numbers mod n.[1,3,8...
04:33:01 <Bike> "Pisano periods are named after Leonardo Pisano, better known as Fibonacci." pff.
04:46:47 <coppro> I feel like I'm missing something when trying to read XKCD
05:02:38 <kmc> i feel like randall munroe is missing something when trying to write XKCD
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05:11:23 <fizzie> Unsurprisingly, wakeup from suspend doesn't work on my Linux desktop. (Black screen, no answer to SSH; keyboard leds do react, though.)
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05:13:15 <zzo38> shachaf: What is this year's ICFP contest? I have seen the previous ones in Wikipedia.
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05:14:40 <fizzie> (Huh. It answers to ping; curious that not SSH.)
05:14:59 -!- shachaf has joined.
05:15:17 <zzo38> I have had suspend not work properly on various computers regardless of operating system.
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05:18:23 <fizzie> It is certainly a thing that happens.
05:21:19 <fizzie> (At least wake-on-lan works.)
05:21:36 <zzo38> Then use that. Does wake on the telephone rings work?
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05:24:51 <fizzie> I don't have a land line, or a modem in this computer.
05:28:26 <zzo38> You don't need any of those to use the wake on telephone feature.
05:28:55 <fizzie> How does it work, then?
05:29:31 <fizzie> (Another thing that did not work: alsa-utils tried to execute /usr/sbin/alsactl (to restore mixer levels) before /usr was mounted. (I don't know why, because the initscript has Required-Start: $localfs, and it's much later than the mounting in init script order.))
05:29:38 <zzo38> There is one of the pins in the serial port which tells the computer if the telephone rings, so connect something else to that port instead.
05:32:39 <fizzie> I don't recall seeing that feature mentioned in the BIOS setup.
05:34:20 <zzo38> Which people in here have told about what dream they have? I want to know some things such as how commonly things resembling different kinds of logic (or no kinds of logic) applies, and a few others. A few times it has happened when in the dream there was something where linear logic seemed to apply, even though it isn't a case where that would be the case in real life.
05:34:36 <zzo38> (I think this was before I knew about linear logic, actually.)
05:36:46 <zzo38> Who (and how many) of you have done this?
05:47:46 <zzo38> Or do you even understand what I am talking about at all?
06:14:48 <kmc> wake-on-van
06:15:02 <Bike> impact in three. brace
06:15:16 <kmc> woop woop pull up pull up
06:16:08 <zzo38> I think I do not understand you either.
06:17:52 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> I think I do not understand you either.
06:17:57 <HackEgo> 1085) <zzo38> I think I do not understand you either.
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11:01:20 <fizzie> "-- binaural sound, wave field synthesis systems, and sound source localization using GPGPU --" hmm, maybe I should go and have a listen.
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11:19:45 <elliott> did lumpio piss everyone off again
11:20:36 <elliott> I like the part where he rejoined just to tell us he's never coming back ever.
11:26:17 <fizzie> Oh, there's been some drrama?
11:28:27 <fizzie> elliott: Also to tell us to purchase some guys, I guess?
11:30:27 <elliott> drama, n. when someone doesn't like what you're doing
11:30:53 <elliott> dramacentral, n. place where someone tells you they don't like what you're doing
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11:59:53 <elliott> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html oh my god
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12:06:53 <ais523> hmm, so it seems that this book has been checked out 17 times, from 1971 to 1984
12:07:00 <ais523> and then not again until 2013, which was me
12:07:18 <ais523> (in other words, this book has gone my entire lifetime without anyone reading it)
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12:09:43 <Roujo> Before you leave again =P
12:09:49 <Roujo> What book is it? =)
12:09:50 <fizzie> A person with lesser politeness levels might say that it's the likely fate of your (or anyone else's) thesis, too.
12:09:50 <ais523> this connection is really unreliable
12:10:01 <ais523> "Switching theory" by Miller, volume 2
12:10:21 <fizzie> I suppose it's about theory of switching and not about switching to (some other) theory?
12:10:30 <ais523> fizzie: it's actually about digital circuits
12:10:43 <fizzie> Closer to the former, anyway.
12:10:55 <ais523> aha, the full name is "Switching Theory, Vol. II: Sequential Circuits and Machines"
12:11:36 <ais523> let's see what Google thought it was… "Switching theory. Vol. 2, Sequential circuits and machines"
12:11:46 <ais523> (Google had to figure it out indirectly from citations)
12:12:54 <ais523> there was some debate over what its name was, getting a physical copy of it seemed to be one way to settle that
12:13:12 <ais523> also, there's still a punched card in here that someone was using as a bookmark
12:15:25 <ais523> 12/3, 11/9, 12/5, 11/5, 0/4/8, 5, 1, 5/8, 5, 1, 4/8, 3/8, 4/8, 1, 4/8
12:15:58 <ais523> also "LINE$51*51<#@1@" is printed on it, which appears to be a translation of the punches (because single numbers represent themselves literally on punched cards)
12:16:04 <ais523> I might have the 12s and 11s backwards, they aren't labeled
12:16:36 <ais523> oh, the first 4/8 is actually 11/4/8
12:18:25 <ais523> *single digits represent themselves literally
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12:23:03 <ais523> this book seems to be full of a bunch of formal definitions, trying to define what it means for a circuit to be speed-independent
12:23:35 <ais523> that's probably why nobody reads it any more; speed-independence is the assumption that your components are slow but your wires transmit information instantaneously
12:23:43 <ais523> and that turned out to be the opposite of how electronics works in practice
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12:29:28 <Roujo> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
12:29:28 <fizzie> They typically do have a printed version of the line for human readers, it seems.
12:30:08 <Roujo> I still haven't figured out how to make a non-trivial lol-my-source-file-is-empty quine yet
12:30:09 <ais523> that doesn't seem like a particularly useful punched card, anyway
12:30:30 <Roujo> But this guy did *so much better*
12:30:41 <Roujo> (Granted, I never really spent much time trying, but eh)
12:30:42 <ais523> Roujo: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1icrny/an_uroboros_program_with_50_programming_languages/cb3vtuq
12:30:47 <ais523> me explaining how to write a quine
12:30:58 <ais523> a rather verbose, unobfuscated one
12:31:12 <Roujo> Thanks. I'd rather not read it, though.
12:31:18 <Roujo> I know the information is easy to find
12:31:29 <Roujo> I just want to figure it out on my own =)
12:32:02 <fizzie> 50 languages is quite an impressive number.
12:32:28 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps in terms of the time it'd take to write them all
12:32:47 <ais523> it's not that impressive in terms of quine-writing; when we did botloops back in #esoteric, only one of the bots needed to do anything other than print statements
12:33:12 <katla> yeah sigfpe show how to do this
12:33:23 <katla> once you get the idea adding another language is just a matter of filling out a form
12:33:26 <ais523> writing a quine that wraps itself in print statements for some other language isn't noticeably harder than writing an ordinary quine
12:33:36 <ais523> katla: yeah, at least if the other language has string literals
12:33:42 <ais523> if it doesn't, e.g. INTERCAL, things get a bit harder
12:33:57 <ais523> not /much/ harder, but somewhat
12:35:57 <ais523> J = Y NAND K; K = X NAND J; Q = (X OR J) AND (Y OR K)
12:36:22 <Roujo> And the actual source is formatted as Ouroboros
12:36:30 <ais523> Roujo: again, not so hard
12:36:45 <Roujo> ais523: Depends on your level =P
12:37:04 <ais523> perhaps I should write a quine-loop generator that lets you choose which languages to go via, and what shape the source should be formatted as
12:37:10 <Roujo> "It's not that hard to fly, really", said the butterfly to the caterpillar
12:37:24 <Roujo> AKA I'm not up there yet =P
12:39:01 <katla> Roujo, http://blog.sigfpe.com/2011/01/quine-central.html
12:39:25 <Jafet> ais523: you mean like https://github.com/mame/quine-relay/blob/master/src/code-gen.rb
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12:40:07 <ais523_> so it turns out that, the thing everyone cites this book for
12:40:11 <ais523_> isn't actually in this book
12:40:48 <ais523_> unless it's that boolean expression I posted above, and I don't think it is
12:42:28 <Jafet> By everyone do you mean a few dozen people somewhere
12:43:03 <Jafet> Also, a proper cyclic quine http://www.ioccc.org/2000/dhyang.c
12:43:18 <fizzie> That might've been for vol 1.
12:43:41 <fizzie> Google Scholar's citation counts are kind of approximative.
12:45:09 <oklopol> so last month i wanted to cite in my phd that limit sets of cellular automata can be pi^0_1 hard
12:45:17 <oklopol> and everyone cites an article by hurd
12:45:46 <oklopol> i checked, and it indeed claims the result, but proves a much simpler thing, completely missing the point
12:46:38 <ais523_> fizzie: it's cited more than that under different names
12:46:52 <oklopol> not that people care much because everyone thinks they can easily prove it
12:47:17 <fizzie> oklopol: Did you prove it to be not true?
12:47:17 <ais523_> bleh, proving a negative is hard, and proving that something isn't in a book is also hard
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12:47:32 <fizzie> Aw. I was trying to jump to the punchline.
12:47:59 <ais523> let me try to analyze that expression I posted above, that might be it
12:48:07 <ais523> J = Y NAND K; K = X NAND J; Q = (X OR J) AND (Y OR K)
12:48:20 <ais523> J <= Y NAND K; K <= X NAND J; Q <= (X OR J) AND (Y OR K)
12:48:22 <oklopol> there was no punchline, i just find it funny that no one checks these things before citing.
12:48:32 <ais523> make sure to use the right sort of operator, ais523!
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12:48:38 <Jafet> They do. They check the paper that they got it from.
12:48:55 <oklopol> and cite the original without reading it
12:49:02 <katla> the punchline was given to us in private communication
12:49:26 <ais523> let's see… if X and Y are both 0, then J and K are both 1, so Q is 1
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12:50:03 <ais523> if X is 1 and Y is 0, then J is 1, so K is 0, and so Q is 0
12:50:06 <ais523> yeah, this isn't a C-element
12:50:25 <boily> good high-scoring-scrabble-letters morning!
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12:51:30 <boily> ais523: good fternoon to you too.
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12:51:54 <boily> Roujo: had my regular morning bixi ride. it's way too humid outside for my personal tastes and confort zone.
12:52:18 <Roujo> Getting a Bixi key *would* be a good idea, wouldn't it =P
12:52:31 <Roujo> Either that or getting my actual bike to Lachine =P
12:52:43 <ais523> and yeah, that's the only two-input one-output circuit in this chapter of the book
12:53:05 <fizzie> Is "Bixi" some sort of a bike-share thing with a fashionable name?
12:53:22 <fizzie> Bike: They're sharing you.
12:53:46 <metasepia> EFHK 091220Z 20012KT 9999 BKN023 23/17 Q1008 NOSIG
12:54:38 <metasepia> CYUL 091200Z 00000KT 12SM FEW007 OVC015 21/19 A2987 RMK SF1SC8 SF TR SLP113 DENSITY ALT 900FT
12:54:49 <ais523> I bet Sutherland is laughing at all of academia right now (at least, the very small slice of it that cares about asynchronous circuits)
12:54:54 <katla> what is the problem
12:54:56 <boily> is the II out yet?
12:55:07 <fizzie> Huh, only 17? It's been very tropical in here.
12:56:41 <boily> 23 °C with dew point at 17 translates to 69% rel. humidity.
12:56:55 <fizzie> boily: Yes, but relative humidity here for the last two days: http://cdn.fmi.fi/weather-observations/products/graphs/observations-101005-13-fi.png
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12:58:12 <fizzie> Sometimes it feels like that a 3am.
12:58:24 <boily> I think Finland is a subaquatic hoax, like Atlantis or something.
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13:11:21 <boily> I just booted alpine linux into virtualbox for fun. that things boot frighteningly fast.
13:12:07 <boily> s/things boot/thing boots/
13:12:24 <Roujo> Powerthirst! Makes your linux box boot abnormally fast!
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13:14:16 <boily> Roujo: I prefer terrifying boot times over weird and unusual ones.
13:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> sound the alarm, your boot's about to get uncomfortably fast
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13:20:40 <ais523_> it could be harder to track down the actual source of the Muller C-element than I thoguht
13:25:37 <boily> oerjan: close an eye.
13:26:20 <oerjan> nope, ais523 still has two nicks
13:26:44 <ais523> yeah, the connection's really bad here
13:26:51 <ais523> ais523_ is a wired connection, which is /normally/ more reliable
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13:27:28 <boily> oerjan: shake your monitor so that with retinal persistence the double aises merge into one?
13:28:06 <oerjan> my connection is also shitty today. :(
13:28:15 <oerjan> although tmux masks that for you.
13:28:51 <oerjan> well, mostly horribly laggy.
13:31:28 <Roujo> dat ludicrous booting speed
13:31:56 <boily> I boot columbia. that wintery booting speed.
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13:40:25 <ais523> haha, according to the ACM, one of my papers (when read aloud) is 901165:12 minutes long
13:40:43 <ais523> err, hmm, that's not an MP3, it's an MP4
13:40:47 <ais523> a 901165:12 minute video, then
13:41:20 <ais523> I still don't really think this makes much sense in any direction, though…
13:42:17 <boily> ~eval 901165 / 60 / 24 / 365.25
13:43:56 <fizzie> ais523: Where do they have those numbers? The generic ACM Digital Library paper-page doesn't seem to say anything about length.
13:44:18 <fizzie> boily: Leap years, man!
13:44:24 <ais523> fizzie: on the page about the author
13:44:37 <fizzie> boily: Or, rather, "proper leap years for centuries, man".
13:45:34 <fizzie> ais523: A colleague has one paper of "2411109:31 MIN", and another of "398752:6 MIN".
13:46:19 <fizzie> The one that's 2411109:31 minutes is 23:57 minutes when opened in their video viewer.
13:46:33 <ais523> hmm… is it an actual video?
13:46:48 <fizzie> ais523: It's the slides of the corresponding conference presentation.
13:46:57 <fizzie> ais523: Presumably audio too, I don't have headphones right now.
13:47:14 <fizzie> ais523: But it started with the last slide of the previous presenter, so I suppose it's from their stream.
13:47:18 <oerjan> ~eval 901165 / 60 / 24 / 365.2425
13:48:21 <fizzie> I don't think IEEE conference presentations are published anywhere like this.
13:48:39 <oerjan> fizzie: but i don't have a garden! (knock on wood)
13:49:34 <boily> fizzie: I don't like leap years. I'm a proponent for adjusting Earth's revolution period to have a nice, round integer. like, have a 512-day year.
13:49:50 <Roujo> boily: I like that idea
13:50:07 <oerjan> boily: that means some seriously long winters, mind you
13:50:23 <fizzie> Oh, the ICASSP presentations are, at some superlectures.com site. Curious.
13:50:35 <boily> oerjan: don't mind. as Candians, we're used to winters.
13:51:19 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
13:51:28 <ais523> hmm… I have a good suspicion of what the /actual/ source is, but apparently there's only one copy in existence and it's at the University of Illinois
13:51:47 <Roujo> We could just make it so that the revolution time = the rotation time
13:51:58 <Roujo> Which would probably get rid of winters altogether
13:52:05 <boily> holy centrifugal forces, batman!
13:52:38 <Roujo> Sure. But think about it.
13:52:44 <oerjan> those tidelocked planets are not pleasant
13:52:50 <Roujo> No more sleet, no more shoveling the snow...
13:53:06 <oerjan> Roujo: you're forgetting the side _away_ from the sun hth
13:53:07 <Roujo> No more fallen leaves to clean up
13:53:59 <Roujo> Okay, so we make it rotate the other way
13:54:04 <boily> I think the only lifeforms that would be left are going to be the usual post-nuclear cockroaches, and some megasquirrels.
13:54:30 <Roujo> Better yet, make it rotate so fast that the concept of night/day becomes irrelevant
13:54:47 <Roujo> So that the whole day is light-ish
13:54:59 <Roujo> 50 shades of, well, shades
13:55:06 <oerjan> Roujo: that would also make gravitation irrelevant hth
13:55:20 <Roujo> Just make the planet bigger, then.
13:55:47 <oerjan> i'm not sure that will work without turning it into a neutron star?
13:55:49 <Roujo> Also, I'm pretty sure you mean otoh, not hth =P
13:55:57 <boily> Roujo: are you subtly pointing that we should, like, live on something not entirely unlike a magnetar?
13:56:12 <Roujo> >implying I'm implying stuff
13:56:18 <oerjan> Roujo is secretly an invading chellah
13:56:19 <boily> otoh, hth is better than otoh, if twh. nah. hth. hand.
13:56:26 <metasepia> Chellah, (4'D)) or Sala Colonia is a necropolis and complex of ancient Roman Mauretania Tingitana and medieval ruins at the outskirts of Rabat, Morocco.
13:56:37 <Roujo> I AM AN INVADING NECROPOLIS
13:57:24 <boily> `addquote <Roujo> I AM AN INVADING NECROPOLIS... ALL BOW BEFORE MY... erm... WALLS?... NECROBUILDINGS?
13:57:28 <HackEgo> 1086) <Roujo> I AM AN INVADING NECROPOLIS... ALL BOW BEFORE MY... erm... WALLS?... NECROBUILDINGS?
13:57:40 <oerjan> (this is one of those books i've conveniently read only through wikipedia's plot summary)
13:59:41 <oerjan> boily: dragon's egg hth
14:00:07 <metasepia> A Dragon egg is a summoning pet egg that requires 99 Summoning to obtain.
14:00:31 <boily> oerjan: there you go. Roujo's has a power of OVER 99 SUMMONING!
14:00:40 <Jafet> oerjan: this is a "hard sci fi" book so the book is probably not more entertaining than the plot summary
14:02:13 <boily> Roujo: artistic mathematic license.
14:02:59 <Roujo> "It's been revoked"
14:03:24 <boily> and, I'm an engineer. it's only an approximative 1% error. nothing to worry about.
14:03:56 <Jafet> Your error of 1% has an error of 1%
14:04:07 <Roujo> I'm thinking of becoming an engineer.
14:04:13 <Roujo> Also, about error margins
14:04:32 <Roujo> Say you have a reading of 40%, ±1%
14:04:42 <boily> the most important thing about error margins is the stroke width in points in your .eps figures.
14:04:57 <Roujo> Is the range 39%-41%? Or is it 39,6%-40,4%?
14:05:00 <Roujo> HOW DO YOU KNOWWWWWW
14:05:02 <oerjan> boily: i said "dragon's" not dragon hth
14:05:11 <boily> ~duck dragon's egg
14:05:12 <metasepia> Dragon's Egg is a hard science fiction novel written by Robert L. Forward and published in 1980.
14:05:21 <boily> bleh. relevant info.
14:05:22 <Roujo> Sounds relevant-er
14:05:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: relevant: not found
14:05:52 <Jafet> This is where you give up and draw your graph in excel and say "the standard deviation is negligible"
14:06:05 <Roujo> Speaking of standard deviations
14:06:19 <Roujo> The stats on my final WebDev class were interesting
14:06:49 <Roujo> StdDev was 40% or something insane like that
14:09:03 <boily> Roujo: t'étudies où, si je peux me permettre de poser la question?
14:09:16 <oerjan> `run echo "The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller." >wisdom/'relevant info'
14:09:39 <Roujo> boily: Je n'étudies plus, c'est ça l'ennui =P
14:09:52 <oklopol> oh i know that one it's some kind of ring
14:09:56 <Roujo> `run forrest | run
14:09:58 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found \ bash: forrest: command not found
14:10:50 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
14:11:07 <Roujo> `run cat /dev/urandom > wisdom/'irrelevant info'
14:11:16 <HackEgo> bash: line 1: 287 File size limit exceededcat /dev/urandom > wisdom/'irrelevant info'
14:11:50 <Roujo> Is there a way to limit it?
14:11:57 <oerjan> Jafet: don't revert unless you're sure your change actually went through
14:12:07 <HackEgo> The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller.
14:12:13 <oerjan> or else it will revert something completely unrelated
14:12:19 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
14:12:20 <boily> like relevant information.
14:12:54 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/irrelevant info
14:12:56 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/irrelevant info: No such file or directory
14:13:12 <oerjan> ok i guess that worked
14:13:21 <Roujo> Now, say I want to put random garbage in that file
14:13:33 <Roujo> Without making it wayyy too big for its own good
14:13:39 <ais523> yay, it seems that archive.org digitized a copy
14:13:45 <ais523> and none of the usual search engines knew about it
14:13:48 <Roujo> How would I go about and do that?
14:13:49 <oerjan> Roujo: we already have a wisdom entry with random garbage.
14:13:56 <HackEgo> .SaaO>rqn&t1VVnv& UoSL]cM~, Bl>P6
14:14:06 <oerjan> also, it's special cased
14:14:12 <HackEgo> vyڜc4"lc|.ZϝE~8PHi "THbBFUMXæo]0bL[s*)}v\@nrt"+kݫ6mANŷ+HP.2,v(/qv?d}o\zP.`1%N$L'1ߴhvSk935xd>U
14:14:17 <ais523> there's widespread disagreement on which year it was published in, though
14:14:41 <boily> «â-ÛvyÚ õÈcø». truer words were never spoken.
14:14:45 <HackEgo> cat: bin/wisdom: No such file or directory
14:14:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\
14:15:26 <oerjan> (it _used_ to be an actual link to /dev/urandom, but that broke things horribly whenever people tried to make a search or digest of the directory)
14:16:10 <Roujo> I really wonder why I can't see special chars on Freenode =/
14:16:19 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/nooodl/"n@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
14:16:37 <Roujo> All I see are those neat question marks in diamonds
14:16:49 <Roujo> And yet I'm configured as UTF-8
14:16:55 <Roujo> Maybe my bouncer isn't
14:16:59 <Roujo> That would explain it
14:19:50 <Jafet> `gccrun for (int i=0;i<99;i++) printf("\xe2\x96%c", 133+sin(i/4)*4);
14:19:51 * boily lightly smacks Roujo with a standards compliant mako shark to compel him to unicodify his whole system as a respectable person is wont to do.
14:19:53 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c:19: error: ‘for’ loop initial declarations are only allowed in C99 mode \ /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c:19: note: use option -std=c99 or -std=gnu99 to compile your code \ /tmp/gccrun.kUXWeFD2/command.c:19: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of b
14:20:09 <Jafet> `gccrun int i; for (i=0;i<99;i++) printf("\xe2\x96%c", 133+sin(i/4.)*4);
14:20:12 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.Jc3ohCYR/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.Jc3ohCYR/command.c:19: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘sin’ \ /tmp/ccyVF3XB.o: In function `main': \ command.c:(.text+0x2e): undefined reference to `sin' \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
14:20:25 <Roujo> Alright, I think I fixed it
14:20:29 * ais523 puts a link to the archive.org page in the citation itself, so that other people can actually find a copy
14:21:24 <boily> speaking of archives, I should keep a log somewhere for every object and technique I use to bop people on the head.
14:21:57 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
14:21:59 <HackEgo> Ss#KDa{a}[VqkI \ &56}r.f$p=;iWJ2.LLB݄|MSVCC:pKYNkqD7;ZÞ@߅HHS&a&.)i.*O7-?صgaT+ҡ/w>I5@S{
14:24:19 <ais523_> oh, gah; it's the wrong article :(
14:25:21 <ais523_> luckily the right one seems to be there too
14:25:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
14:26:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:26:43 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit).
14:27:39 <boily> hm. I should hi people when they are actually connected.
14:27:53 <boily> oh well. time to clean my desk and move...
14:27:54 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
14:28:04 <fizzie> ais523_: That ("one copy" "in Illinois") is probably why everyone just copies the citation.
14:28:04 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:28:38 <ais523_> fizzie: well, yeah, and some people were copying the wrong citation
14:29:02 <ais523_> or, like, the book that everyone was copying was a different one, the University of Birmingham has a copy
14:29:24 <ais523_> but it hadn't been used for almost 30 years so it took them a while to find it
14:30:00 <ais523_> (actually, what happened is that I went to the library, they checked their records and said that they had a copy but they had to retrieve it from storage and asked me to come back the next day)
14:30:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:31:28 <ais523_> anyway, it seems that the University of Illinois actually lent their copy to archive.org to digitize
14:31:37 <ais523_> presumably because they were fed up with everyone asking them for it
14:31:46 <ais523_> (their copy of the original source, that is)
14:33:11 <ais523_> hmm... this PDF crashes Acrobat, should I be scared?
14:33:20 <ais523_> if you scroll too quickly, that is
14:33:26 <ais523_> Evince can handle it but it takes like 20 seconds to render each page
14:35:41 <ais523_> also half the pages are useless because it's only printed on one side of each page and archive decided to digitize the back of each page as well as the front
14:36:04 <ais523_> I guess that makes sense, it's probably faster than employing someone to check the back of each page to ensure there's nothing important written there
14:37:08 <ais523_> elliott: basically there are two relevant books; the first one, everyone has been copying other people's citations of, and nobody bothers to check that it actually contains the information that's being cited (it doesn't)
14:37:25 <ais523_> and the second, which I suspect contains the information, there's only one copy in existence, at the university of illinois
14:37:29 <ais523_> but luckily archive.org digitized it
14:37:37 <ais523_> to determine whether it actually does
14:37:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
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14:38:38 <ais523_> also it appears to have been typewritten rather than typeset, with anything the typewriter couldn't handle drawn in by hand
14:38:43 <ais523_> I guess that explains why there's only one copy
14:44:13 <ais523_> haha, this document doesn't define the Muller C-element /either/ :)
14:44:54 <ais523_> I think, at least, it's hard to tell
14:45:40 <oerjan> maybe there's actually a book by nearly the same name written by Muller himself
14:45:55 <ais523_> nah, this document is written by Muller himself
14:46:16 <ais523_> I know I got the right book with Miller because the publisher and publication year matched too
14:46:49 <ais523_> anyway, that was "A Theory of Asynchronous Circuits I" I checked
14:46:58 <ais523_> II is incorrectly labeled as I on archive.org, maybe it's in that one
14:48:23 <ais523_> hmm... II has thinner paper, you can see through the back of the page
14:48:30 <oerjan> prediction: some time in the next century a flawed proof of the inconsistency of zfc will be announced, and no one will be able to disprove it because many of the theorems used are supported by chains of erroneous citations that no one can untangle.
14:49:09 <ais523_> oh well, that only took a day or so to track down, not bad going :)
14:50:10 <oerjan> ais523_: now you go and fix it on wikipedia in such a way that misguided people won't revert it to one of the wrong books hth
14:50:35 <Jafet> We give a positive answer to a long-standing conjecture first posed by Johansen[7].
14:51:16 <ais523> oerjan: Wikipedia's citing a conference paper which probably (but does not definitely) incorporate a copy of the technical report
14:51:38 <ais523> I should probably go link it to the archive.org page, really
14:52:02 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't recall posing any conjectures fwiw but it's been a long time
14:53:00 <elliott> oerjan: there's still time!
14:54:33 <Jafet> [7] Ø. Johansen, "prediction:", public communication, a long time.
14:55:17 <ais523> what was the conjecture?
14:55:25 <oerjan> Jafet: that's not a _mathematical_ conjecture hth
14:56:04 <ais523> oh, the theory about the inconsistency of zfc
14:56:34 <Jafet> It's a mythematical one
14:57:00 <HackEgo> 2013-05-28.txt:04:16:11: <Bike> prediction: nobody actually uses ZFC besides set theorists anyway
14:57:19 <Jafet> That looks like a conjecture
14:57:37 <oerjan> but _still_ not a mathematical one hth
15:00:35 <ais523_> also, "Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2013"
15:01:01 <ais523_> so it would have been basically impossible for anyone to get a copy before then, except maybe if they lived in Illinois
15:12:45 <Jafet> The year of the Muller C-element has come
15:13:11 -!- zzo38 has joined.
15:14:04 <ais523_> the funny thing is, the very original source just defines what it is, and doesn't really discuss it at all
15:14:19 <ais523_> also it doesn't name it, it uses "C" for arbitrary circuits
15:14:31 <ais523_> and so that one was called C in context, and the name appears to have stuck
15:23:36 -!- boily has joined.
15:24:32 <boily> good translated morning!
15:27:48 <fizzie> I don't speak the lingo, it was just a translated morning courtesy of Google Translate.
15:31:24 <boily> (that was a meh done in Finnish.)
15:32:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:32:13 -!- ais523__ has joined.
15:32:57 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523.
15:33:04 <boily> we should measure ais523_'s rate of underscorization throughout the day.
15:33:21 <ais523> boily: the nicks "ais523" and "ais523_" actually have different semantics
15:33:40 <ais523> I've been known to nick from one to the other when I picked the wrong one by mistake or via collision
15:33:52 <Deewiant> Do they have different collision alternatives as well
15:34:14 <ais523> Deewiant: currently ais523 has ais523_ and ais523__ as collision alternatives
15:34:18 <ais523> and ais523_ doesn't have collision alternatives
15:34:57 <Deewiant> I recommend using something other than _ as the uncollision character
15:35:00 <boily> hmm... I fear complexities for the The Question.
15:35:02 <ais523> OK, now I have callforjudgement and scarf as my collision alternatives
15:35:04 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
15:35:10 <boily> are all aises approximately in the same place?
15:35:21 <Deewiant> I don't recommend using completely different nicks as collision alternatives
15:35:28 <zzo38> If you store all of the IRC logs in a SQL database then it should be easy enough to measure all of these things, especially if you add some extensions such as mathematical extensions, blob parsing extensions, graphical extensions to plot the graph of when you did it
15:35:35 <scarf> boily: ais523_ is me when I'm using a hotdesking or public computer, via a wired connection
15:35:39 <boily> (I guess the scarves they wear are background statistically insignificant noise)
15:35:39 <scarf> whereas ais523 is my laptop
15:35:50 <scarf> currently the laptop is next to a work computer
15:36:08 <Deewiant> Is that your only computer or is there a third class of nick for other computers you own
15:36:38 <scarf> it's the only computer that a) I own, b) is currently working, and c) is capable of going online
15:36:39 <Deewiant> Or for when you're using a public computer via a wireless connection
15:36:49 <scarf> that one's never happened
15:37:06 <scarf> so I don't have a contingency plan for that yet
15:38:29 * oerjan imagines scarf desperately failing to log in at a wireless public computer because he cannot decide which nick to use
15:39:32 <oerjan> argh chocolate covered peanuts are dangerous
15:39:46 <scarf> oerjan: nut allergy?
15:39:56 <oerjan> must... resist... ...soon...
15:40:02 <monotone> Have you considered incrementing the ais number?
15:40:15 <oerjan> monotone: now that's just heretical talk
15:40:19 <monotone> I'm curious to see what ais524 and ais996873 are like.
15:40:49 <oerjan> don't go that direction, ais527 is actually a serial killer
15:40:52 <scarf> monotone: I've nicked to ais524 before now as a joke in response to "ais523++"
15:40:57 <scarf> but I don't do that reliably or consistently
15:41:50 <oerjan> scarf: no allergy but also no willpower hth
15:42:12 <boily> right. my bot is dead.
15:42:20 -!- metasepia has joined.
15:42:21 <Bike> bye cuttlefish
15:42:25 <metasepia> monotone definition: a succession of syllables, words, or sentences in one unvaried key or pitch.
15:42:40 <metasepia> A scarf, also known as a muffler, or neck-wrap is a piece of fabric worn around the neck, or near the head or around the waist for warmth, cleanliness, fashion or for religious reasons.
15:49:01 <fizzie> Uh... has MDN somehow broken itself? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array has the same list of methods (concat, join, slice, toSource, toString, indexOf, lastIndexOf) for all the subsections of the "Array instances" section (Properties, Mutator methods, Accessor methods, ...)
15:49:26 -!- iamfishhead has joined.
15:51:15 <monotone> fizzie: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/prototype still works.
15:51:21 <boily> someone on hackage has read xkcd... there's a thyme package out there.
15:51:45 <oerjan> boily: but does it change every hour?
15:51:56 <fizzie> monotone: Seems to. Perhaps they've somehow broken the template inclusion mechanism, that's what is being used to include those sections in the top "Array" page.
15:52:35 <boily> oerjan: don't think so. I think it's a reference to the old mussolini pun.
15:57:45 <Taneb> boily, not necessarily, "time" and "thyme" are homophones, so it's a pretty obvious joke
15:58:38 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:00:24 <boily> Taneb: but, but... I am young and naïve... can't I dream of xkcd spreading all over the intarwebs?
16:00:55 <Taneb> Are you sure that would be a good thing?
16:07:37 <fizzie> Huh, is it really the case that only the Gecko-derived browsers support any of the fancy language-level things (like let, comprehensions, generators, whatnot) of JavaScript 1.7/1.8? Welp. The more you know, I guess.
16:08:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:09:29 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:15:05 <zzo38> I suppose you can use those fancy things in a program meant as the browser extension, or in a XUL application, or maybe in other programs that use the same JavaScript engine, such as Synchronet
16:16:46 <ais523_> I don't think you can just cat things to network adapters like that
16:17:36 <fizzie> You can cat to a file called "eth0" just fine, though.
16:18:59 <fizzie> Sadly, you can't even cat to any file in /sys/class/net/eth0/ and get those bytes sent as a raw Ethernet frame.
16:21:39 -!- valer has joined.
16:23:40 <valer> Hi, I was browsing the wiki and noticed that P′′ is both in Category:Implemented (as it should be) and Category:Unimplemented. Must be some MediaWiki glitch.
16:23:56 <HackEgo> valer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:24:15 <elliott> hmm, it doesn't show in unimplemented to me
16:24:19 <elliott> maybe the cached version is broken...
16:24:35 <elliott> valer: how about now, if you refresh?
16:24:52 <valer> Okay, it isn't there any more for me either.
16:25:04 <elliott> this has hapepned before recently, maybe something broke
16:30:21 <Roujo> ais523_: Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean that you shouldn't =P
16:30:36 <scarf> LEGAL but not POSSIBE
16:31:27 <Roujo> Has that ever happened in Agora? =P
16:31:55 <scarf> Roujo: all sorts of things are legal but impossible in Agora
16:32:08 <scarf> pretty much any ISIDTID, for instance
16:32:40 <Roujo> Well, saying you do something is both LEGAL and POSSIBLE
16:33:31 <Roujo> Oh. So if there was some mechanism that made it possible for you to do it, you wouldn't be breaking any rules by doing so
16:33:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
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17:02:31 <zzo38> Can you answer my question from yesterday?
17:03:22 <scarf> zzo38: only by accident, because I don't know what it is
17:09:40 <zzo38> Which people in here have told about what dream they have? I want to know some things such as how commonly things resembling different kinds of logic (or no kinds of logic) applies, and a few others. A few times it has happened when in the dream there was something where linear logic seemed to apply, even though it isn't a case where that would be the case in real life.
17:09:49 <zzo38> Who (and how many) of you have done this?
17:11:57 <elliott> what happened re: linear logic?
17:13:10 <ais523_> I've never had a dream that appeared to follow the rules of linear logic
17:14:22 <olsner> I think I've told about some dream I've had some time, but I know nothing about linear logic
17:14:24 <zzo38> Things that can ordinary be used together cannot, things that ordinarily don't, instead must, etc, it has a slight resemblence to some of the operators in linear logic, if interpreted in the right way
17:14:41 <zzo38> olsner: Do you know what dream you've had (in general)?
17:15:04 <oklopol> i think you have a rather different intuition of linear logic than me
17:15:45 <zzo38> oklopol: Well, there are different things it can apply to. (I think this is case with most systems of logic; there are different applications of them than only what is intended/common.)
17:15:52 <oklopol> can you give some sort of example
17:16:13 <scarf> olsner: the main rule of linear logic is that variables cannot be copied or destroyed
17:16:16 <scarf> you have to use them all exactly once
17:16:39 <zzo38> scarf: Yes, that is mainly the rule how it works, and then there are multiplicative and additive operators, and so on
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17:17:05 <zzo38> Although if you have exclamation/question marks then you can make it allow to use more than once
17:17:14 <scarf> trying to explain all of linear logic in one sentence doesn't work very well
17:17:19 <scarf> so explaining the basic idea is normally better
17:19:01 <zzo38> There were a few examples in my dreams, although one case was a dream where I was thinking of two things at once, one of which could not interact with the rest of my dream, despite being a part of it that isn't being discarded...
17:20:40 <zzo38> Do you ever dream that you are someone else? Do you ever dream that you are of a different species? Do you ever dream that you can fly? Do you ever dream in which you have two thoughts at once, one of which is presumably outside of the dream but is actually still only part of the dream?
17:20:48 <zzo38> (or even three levels)
17:21:03 <ais523_> sometimes I dream that I have a dream
17:21:11 <ais523_> it gets quite confusing when I dream that I wake up
17:22:01 <oklopol> i was once stuck in a dream loop, kept waking up and everything was normal for a couple of minutes and then... a dinosaur.
17:22:07 <zzo38> ais523_: It happens to me, but it doesn't confuse me so much really
17:22:16 <zzo38> oklopol: That happen to me too, but without the dinosaur
17:22:16 <fizzie> I've forgotten completely what the password is to my RPi.
17:22:29 <scarf> fizzie: can you boot up in single-user mode to fix it?
17:22:33 <scarf> or does it not have a serial terminal?
17:22:39 <oklopol> when it was over, i took a 1.5 hour long walk and kept checking that there is nothing suspicious under the snow
17:22:55 <scarf> oklopol: I find that when I'm awake it's easy to verify that I'm awake
17:23:02 <scarf> but when I'm actually asleep I don't think to check
17:23:09 <fizzie> scarf: It has a HDMI port and supports USB keyboards, but I don't really know if the bootloader can take any arguments.
17:23:10 <oklopol> i thought so too, until i had this dream
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17:23:22 <zzo38> What I find is there is no point in checking this
17:23:32 <fizzie> scarf: On the other hand, I can just stick its "hard disk" (a SD card) to a memory card reader and change the password.
17:23:54 <zzo38> Once it was the dream that I knew was the dream but I told people in the dream and they didn't believe me.
17:23:58 <fizzie> scarf: (Though I can't really shut it down cleanly without being able to login. It doesn't have a soft power switch. Or a hard one.)
17:24:12 <zzo38> (But usually I do not have such a belief)
17:24:19 <scarf> fizzie: you could just crash it, I guess
17:24:28 <fizzie> I think I'm going to have to.
17:24:28 <scarf> via cutting the power
17:25:25 <zzo38> I realize something, that in both cases when I was of a different species, it was the species of the character of a game I have played and made up the character (two different games, though, one D&D and one a MUD). Other thing that might be remarkable is that many people say they often dream they can fly, but I could only fly when I was the correct species.
17:26:07 <zzo38> There are other things too other people report about their dreams, many of which I find I have it differently, although some things are the same in my dreams, but there are many differences.
17:26:20 <zzo38> These things seems like remarkable to me.
17:28:35 <zzo38> Later after I woke up, the flying dream also reminded me of something IKEA once did, where they wrote about measuring the space in a room in cubic units rather than square units.
17:29:12 <fizzie> "passwd: Cannot determine your user name."
17:29:23 <fizzie> (I gave it a user name argument.)
17:30:04 <fizzie> (As in, "passwd -R /mounted/thing user". Maybe that's not right.)
17:34:10 <fizzie> I guess it does a chroot to /mounted/thing and only after that tries to dynamically load some libnss stuff, which of course won't work out. I suppose I need to use some lower-level thing that just edits the shadow file.
17:34:12 <zzo38> How different are your dreams from mine?
17:36:57 <Taneb> I had a dream that I was hanging out with three Homestuck cosplayers
17:37:06 <Taneb> A John, a Dave, and a Jade
17:37:13 <Taneb> And I was good friends with the Dave
17:37:33 <Taneb> Then the John cosplayer decided he was going to kill me and the Dave cosplayer and we had to run away
17:38:03 <zzo38> And what did Jade do?
17:38:40 <Taneb> I think she was friends with the John cosplayer but staying neutral on the whole killing us thing
17:38:49 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
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17:41:40 <zzo38> I don't think anyone has ever try to kill me in my dreams, although it has happened (at least) a few times where people were trying to hurt me really badly or inject me with alcoholic drugs or something; I wake up just in time and almost fall off of the bed.
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17:44:18 <fizzie> More PulseAudio experiences: unplugged the USB device (going to try it out in the Pi) and it went to 100% CPU usage. Then pacmd unload-module'd the USB stick sink/source modules, and it crashed.
17:44:29 -!- sacje has joined.
17:44:32 <fizzie> "pulseaudio[3719]: [pulseaudio] proplist.c: Assertion 'p' failed at pulse/proplist.c:71, function pa_proplist_free(). Aborting."
17:44:44 <kmc> don't get injected with alcoholic drugs
17:48:22 <zzo38> kmc: That is why I wake up exactly in time and almost fall off of the bed from the sudden movement
17:48:44 <zzo38> So even in the dream I don't be injected with alcoholic drugs.
17:51:26 <kmc> what are alcoholic drugs?
17:51:32 <kmc> drugs that aren't alcohol, prepared in alcohol solution?
17:51:50 <kmc> i had some of those
17:52:46 <zzo38> I don't know what they are.
17:53:01 <kmc> alcohol is a p. good solvent
17:53:15 <zzo38> This is just the word I used to describe what happened in my dream
17:53:17 <olsner> is there also narcotic booze?
18:06:22 <kmc> zzo38: that is fair, sometimes dreams don't make sense and they need words that don't make sense either
18:06:57 <kmc> borrowchecker ate my balls
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18:20:52 <boily> Roujo: random question: will you go to the otakuthon?
18:21:00 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
18:21:37 <Roujo> boily: I was supposed to >_>
18:21:54 <Roujo> I was supposed to go with a friend of mine
18:21:59 <Roujo> But multiple things happened:
18:22:12 <Roujo> Our costume projects was too ambitious
18:22:24 <Roujo> We never planned our backup project
18:22:50 <Roujo> She stopped talking to be a couple of days ago
18:24:03 <Roujo> We have a pretty weird relatioship anyway
18:24:15 * boily gives a virtual etopen plushie to Roujo to make him feel better
18:24:40 <boily> I asked because I'm one of the volunteers going there. a friend and I will be presenting mahjong, shōgi and xiangqi.
18:25:01 <katla> has anyone got the ICFP question yet?
18:25:15 <boily> Roujo: btw, if you're ever interested in playing mahjong, we're looking for new members for our club.
18:25:40 <zzo38> I play mahjong sometimes
18:25:55 <zzo38> I know how to play mahjong and shogi and xiangqi.
18:26:46 <boily> shōgi is hard. I suck at it :p
18:27:14 <Roujo> katla: Do you mean what the current contest is about?
18:27:44 <Roujo> http://icfpc2013.cloudapp.net/
18:27:53 <Roujo> That's just the page
18:27:56 <Roujo> I'll get the post >_>
18:28:41 <zzo38> Do you know any of Fukumoto's manga?
18:28:45 <Roujo> Can't seem to be able to find a permalink
18:29:00 <Roujo> Just ctrl+f "Let the games begin!"
18:29:28 <boily> zzo38: fukumoto nobuyuki?
18:30:21 <boily> zzo38: well, my friends always try to evangelize akagi onto my poor person, but so far I havn't yet succumbed to the temptation.
18:30:26 <katla> it's 'guess the function'
18:30:34 <katla> didn't you guys already implement a solution for this
18:30:46 <zzo38> I have all of the Akagi up to 24.
18:31:18 <katla> well thats fine im no longer interested in ICFP
18:31:21 <katla> thanks for the link
18:34:21 <boily> zzo38: I have a few French version hikaru no go laying about in my library. I think there are also 2 doraemons in there. and I have the Japanese version of yokohama kaidashi kikō.
18:34:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:35:19 <boily> the last volume of YKK cost me 50 CAD to get it from amazon.co.jp. filthy scammers.
18:37:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:38:12 <zzo38> boily: I have only Akagi.
18:39:03 -!- dessos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:40:07 -!- dessos has joined.
18:40:19 <boily> zzo38: I had the omnibus version of all the azumanga daioh, but my brother long-term-borrowed it.
18:41:19 <boily> I'm thinking of getting nichijō and legend of koizumi next.
18:42:00 <boily> but then, there is also some hardcore science-fiction to be had first.
18:42:09 <valer> I've heard that a good method to notice if you are dreaming is to look for numbers. When dreaming, numbers tend to change constantly and be vague. I have once succeeded this. I looked at a clock or something and when the numbers changed, I knew I was dreaming.
18:42:42 <boily> if only I could get something as precise as a vague number when I dream...
18:42:52 <elliott> valer: looking at your hands tends to be pretty good in my experience
18:42:58 <elliott> as long as you can handle seeing your hands all messed up
18:44:39 <zzo38> It doesn't work to me, the logic is different when you are sleeping, I just either know or I don't know, and either way it seems to me there is no point in checking even if there is a way to do so.
18:47:33 <valer> Several times when I've been close to waking up and noticed (or half-noticed) that I'm dreaming, I've exploited the fact and started to fly around.
18:50:28 <zzo38> A lot of people say they fly in their dreams but like I have said I never had except once recently when I was mi-go. I don't know why a lot of people do and I don't. Even though in cases that I do notice I am dreaming, I don't fly. Although once I told someone in the dream that it is the dream, and they didn't believe me!
18:51:40 <katla> i think its pretty rare to get to fly in a dream
18:51:52 <katla> but it feels great to fly, whether in a dream or not -so people talk about it a lot
18:52:41 <zzo38> katla: Some people I have talked to say they do very commonly, and they are still human in those cases, they aren't being a different species or something. I think it is just that different people have different dreams.
18:54:02 -!- ap3x has joined.
18:54:31 <HackEgo> ap3x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:56:43 <valer> I've also had a rewind feature in dreams. When something really bad happens, I've been able to go back to an earlier point and continue there.
18:57:39 <elliott> valer: btw, do you know a guy called kryft?
18:57:54 <zzo38> valer: Interesting. I don't think I have, though.
18:58:22 <katla> the way to win ICFP is to choose programs whose counter-examples tell you themost about how to improve them
18:58:30 <katla> I have no idea how to do that though
18:58:48 <elliott> valer: you use the same server, is why I asked.
18:59:42 <valer> Heh. The server choice is automatic, probably the closest geographically. I'm in Finland, yes.
19:00:32 <boily> oh, an interesting datapoint! can I ask him the The Question? pretty please?
19:01:33 <zzo38> valer: Have you ever had dreams where you think of two or more things at once, one of which seems at a higher (as in not dreaming) level but actually it is still a dream, where you cannot use those thoughts together for some reason even though they are basically simultaneous?
19:01:37 <valer> elliott, oh, that's a very popular non-profit shell provider here.
19:02:14 -!- TodPunk has joined.
19:02:30 <zzo38> valer: And do you ever dream in which you are a different species?
19:02:50 <elliott> valer: he's the kind of guy who goes into fizzie's office and tells him speech recognition sucks and to op me.
19:05:20 <zzo38> valer: I would like to know what features you have/haven't had in your dream, to see how to compare between different people (including myself)
19:05:27 <valer> zzo38, that's quite a specific concept, I'd have to look for it while sleeping. And about the species, I think I've been some other animal/creature but can't remember now. I've been a non-human ghost/spirit entity at least.
19:05:49 <zzo38> I once read that someone has had a dream tat ended in credits.
19:06:09 <boily> I had black and white dreams a few times.
19:06:31 <boily> can someone here whip up a quick'n'dirty poll to check our dream features?
19:07:41 <zzo38> boily: We would have to see how to do that and what kind of things to write in such a poll. It isn't quite that simple.
19:08:08 <valer> I have had god-like powers at times in dreams. Once I was an evil spirit who took great joy in terrifying people.
19:08:30 <zzo38> I don't think I have had in black and white. At one time I thought you dream in black and white because the room is dark, but once the room was dark and my dream was still in colors, so that can't be in.
19:11:03 <zzo38> valer: Interesting; I was never had. Only two cases I was as a different species, was still physical, and in both cases a species of a character I made up in a game I have played (once D&D, once a MUD). I was never evil nor a spirit.
19:11:43 <zzo38> In the one that I fly, for some reason, I lived in an apartment (although I do not actually live in an apartment in real life), together with my family and friends
19:12:30 <zzo38> (I didn't live in a apartment in the game where the species is from, either)
19:14:38 <valer> I've had some very colorful and epic adventure dreams. They're fun but not that common. Manyt times my dreams have resembled a movie, but alas no end credits.
19:14:56 <elliott> http://static.bbc.co.uk/programmeimages/608xn/images/p01dw05r.jpg image brought to you by the BBC
19:14:58 <zzo38> I haven't had credits either but I have read that someone has.
19:15:08 * boily is jealous of people who have real, structured, precise dreams
19:15:09 <elliott> kmc: Bike: I think you would enjoy clicking this ^
19:15:40 <zzo38> boily: I almost have.
19:16:11 <boily> zzo38: thanks. I feel reassured to be similar to a normal person like you.
19:16:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is Adam Curtis scottish
19:16:46 <zzo38> Do you think I am a normal person? I think not (but who really is a "normal" person?).
19:18:23 <boily> well, considering the kind of people we attract on this fïne chännel, I guess you fit well with others.
19:18:50 <zzo38> boily: O, OK, that's what you mean.
19:18:57 <boily> and subnormality answered that normal question some time ago.
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19:25:18 <zzo38> Perhaps you know that I am strange because of my philosophies and religions, because I like to play monster character in Dungeons&Dragons game (and other game), because of various questions I write about, and because I do esolang stuff, and other things possibly
19:26:10 <boily> you are strange, therefore you are normal :p
19:26:55 <zzo38> But, who is really a "normal" people???
19:26:58 <katla> i think most people around here are unusual in a good way
19:27:13 <zzo38> katla: Yes, I think so, too, I think that is a good thing
19:32:55 <fizzie> Yay, a middle-endian 24-bit number. (As in, value 0x123456 is represented by the bytes 0x12 0x56 0x34.)
19:33:25 <katla> middle-endian... just why...
19:34:40 <kmc> normal people suck
19:36:57 <valer> There's probably some performance benefit in meddle-endianness in some screwed-up architecture.
19:38:03 <Fiora> I remember a thing where softfp on ARM was like, mixed endian?
19:38:28 <Fiora> like, doubles were EFGH ABCD instead of little-endian (ABCDEFGH) or big-endian (HGFEDCBA)
19:38:52 <kmc> fizzie: whyyyyy
19:39:42 <katla> if your arch is faster with MIDDLE endian numbers you probably did something wrong
19:40:16 <zzo38> I think I have read that OHRRPGCE archive files use middle endian for the file sizes (but not for other numbers).
19:40:20 <kmc> "mistakes were made"
19:40:39 <metasepia> The Official Hamster Republic Role Playing Game Creation Engine, abbreviated as OHRRPGCE or OHR, is an open-source, "All-in-one" game creation system.
19:41:39 <zzo38> It isn't a very good system though there are many things I wanted to do which it lacks, which is why I will rewrite Uselessness RPG using other systems.
19:44:21 <valer> Being good enough for hamster role play doesn't imply fitness for general games.
19:45:12 <zzo38> I decided to make the first one using Z-machine and without graphics (I am not very good at making the graphics), and I have on paper I am writing how I will decide to encode the stuff, what locations, what characters, ability scores, skills, etc. So far I have listed four characters and the old man doesn't yet have a name.
19:46:27 <zzo38> Maybe you and others can help me too. (And maybe the sequel might have graphics, and might be written in SQL or something else instead)
19:50:00 <zzo38> You can write ideas/questions/complaints you have, if you have anything to write.
19:50:36 <valer> Does your project have github or something?
19:50:39 <boily> I have and idea/question/complaint to write: can you github the thing?
19:50:53 <boily> darn. I've been ninj-valer-aed.
19:51:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:51:39 <zzo38> No it doesn't, at least not at this time. I don't know if I will put a git repository, but for now I am writing it on a paper anyways; I didn't put it into the computer yet.
19:52:30 * boily unleashes some random cetacean on valer. “that'll teach ya, or at least it'll beluga ya!”
19:52:34 -!- katla has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:52:57 <boily> some day, we'll have git for paper. that will be a glorious, revision controled day.
19:53:17 <zzo38> Probably it will be all in one file anyways, unless I have music.
19:54:16 <boily> speaking of music in files, do we have an easily editable and revisionable text format out there?
19:54:39 <zzo38> Do you mean music files or text files?
19:54:59 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
19:55:00 <boily> there's lilypond, but I don't count it as easy.
19:55:21 <boily> something with a simple syntax that can be compiled to sheet music.
19:55:23 <zzo38> There is Music Macro Language, and that is what I use for music.
19:56:12 <zzo38> MML isn't designed for sheet music though, but, I would hope that something simpler than Lilypond can be made up that would use MML and compile into .DVI format.
19:56:46 <zzo38> (but the quality of the printout also has to be improved like Lilypond is, rather than using a bad quality printout.)
19:57:15 <boily> hm. MML reminds me of my old BASIC days...
19:59:22 <zzo38> BASIC uses a simple kind of MML, but there is more sophisticated ones with multi-track and other things; there is ppMCK for compiling MML into .NSF, and I have even added some things into ppMCK such as tail recursion and the * and ? commands (I find * and ? very useful for writing chords, although they are useful for other things too)
20:00:38 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:02:07 <valer> There's XML representations of MIDI and such.
20:02:14 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:03:50 <boily> valer: hello. my name is boily. you mentioned XML. prepare to be cetaceaned.
20:04:24 <valer> I accidentally XML. Is this bad?
20:05:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:09:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12235
20:16:58 <Gracenotes> computers will never play music as good as people. fact.
20:17:25 <valer> I have a feeling that a computer would disagree.
20:17:53 <Gracenotes> computers will never disagree with people as good as people.
20:18:24 <boily> I just took two advils. don't give me a new headache please.
20:18:40 <Bike> music is hard. think of the fluid dynamics
20:19:02 * boily collapses in a twitching lump on the floor
20:27:12 <boily> fyi, the floored lump that I am ain't dead yet.
20:29:29 <valer> Things that I hate the most:
20:29:29 <valer> * People flooding IRC with pointless jokes
20:30:36 <Gracenotes> the only way that joke could be funnier is if it didn't exist
20:37:00 <fizzie> kmc: I don't really know whyyyyy, but it was a case where the field on-disk has three bytes, but after loading, in-memory, the first byte (the high one) is overwritten, and the two low ones are used as a segment value.
20:37:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:37:52 <fizzie> (Also pretty impressive A/V sync from mplayer + pulseaudio native TCP + RPi + USB sound card in the same hub as the Ethernet interface; I wonder if it does some latency estimation mplayer can use.)
20:52:03 * boily kicks github in the unicorn
20:54:11 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 my impression of my dreams is that they're a window into something profoundly lacking in logical structure.
20:55:02 <zzo38> OK, well, to me there is sometimes still some kind of logic, but not necessarily the kind of logic which would seem correct for the situation.
20:55:30 <oerjan> zzo38: there are fragments of _meaning_ in the dreams, but there's no way of composing two fragments and concluding anything.
20:56:19 <boily> dream fragments do not form a category.
20:56:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Perhaps to you it is. To me it is different; it tends to be like a strange kind of logic more often than it is no logic at all, although it is sometimes the logic that corresponds to real life too.
20:58:01 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe you have found something others haven't discovered, in which case you should try and deduce the rules for the rest of us.
20:58:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Even if it does, it doesn't necessarily mean it applies to you.
20:58:31 <oerjan> alternatively, the logic may get into your dreams from thinking a lot about logic in waking life...
21:00:10 <oerjan> and yeah, i don't really expect dreams to be comparable from person to person except on a deep emotional/symbolic level.
21:02:08 -!- Canaimero-ccd has joined.
21:02:27 <zzo38> It happens even before I think about logic, actually
21:02:40 <oerjan> `@ Canaimero-ccd ? welcome.es
21:02:42 <HackEgo> Canaimero-ccd: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:03:08 <zzo38> (but maybe there is backward causality; it sometimes seems like that)
21:03:24 <oerjan> i wonder if that message should say something about conversation here being generally in english
21:03:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes maybe it should help
21:03:47 <oerjan> Canaimero-ccd: no hablo español
21:03:55 -!- Canaimero-ccd has left.
21:04:15 <boily> but... I didn't have time to `rienvenido him...
21:04:26 <oerjan> boily: someone made that?
21:04:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenido: not found
21:04:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rienvenido: not found
21:06:08 <zzo38> oerjan: But I can give an example of the logic, for example: I was a different species and found a place that, I had the thought (independently) that it was a place I (as a human, though) had been to before. However, this wasn't true (it was also the dream), but in addition, it was independent and could not be combined with another thought in the dream. It reminds me of how in some kinds of logic you cannot always use things together
21:07:29 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/os!/os! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español./' wisdom/welcome.es
21:07:41 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:08:11 <boily> first thing Monday morning.
21:08:25 <oerjan> boily: i think the large number of spanish people is because the channel name starts with es
21:08:39 <oerjan> at least that's my theory.
21:08:58 <boily> time to go eat. goodnight all!
21:09:03 -!- augur has joined.
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21:09:38 <zzo38> I do sometimes not notice things until after the dream, for example it reminded me of IKEA's measuring space in a room using cubic measurements.
21:12:05 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/welcome*
21:12:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es
21:13:12 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
21:14:40 <oerjan> `run sed 's/welcome/welcome.es/' bin/welcome > bin/bienvenido; chmod +x bin/bienvenido
21:14:52 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:15:27 <oerjan> `run sed 's/welcome/welcome.es/g' bin/welcome > bin/bienvenido; chmod +x bin/bienvenido
21:15:36 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:16:26 <valer> How about a non-deterministic self-modifying esolang that simulates dreaming :P
21:17:11 <zzo38> valer: Good; write in list of ideas on the wiki.
21:17:21 <HackEgo> VaLeR: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
21:22:37 <valer> That URL doesn't work, in case you wondered.
21:23:15 <oerjan> complain to elliott, not that it has helped before
21:24:03 <oerjan> the problem is stuck between his overengineering and his laziness :P
21:24:53 <elliott> that sentence describes me :/
21:25:06 <oerjan> (he wants to make it work for all wiki pages, _and_ change the contents as well. this is for `WELCOME but i assume `WeLcOmE would be a small step after that.
21:25:34 <oerjan> elliott: it's ok i have things stuck in the same place.
21:27:08 <oerjan> like both of my unimplemented esolangs...
21:28:10 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/3b6bc5d878e7bddabd373c7781a4a3d1/tumblr_mr3nydWdgH1r7sn1go1_1280.jpg gotta save this for when people ask what it's like where i live
21:28:37 <olsner> mystery crater country?
21:29:18 <Bike> as opposed to perfectly explicable crater country
21:31:58 <oerjan> Bike: we note that in the future the darién gap has got worse rather than better
21:33:24 <Bike> Actually, after Oxfam was taken over by the meerkat-people they launched a development initiative. It's pretty easy for the nuclear people to drive up to visit the human reserve.
21:34:09 <Bike> The gorillas have a big wall to keep out human migrants, though. Say humans are too lazy to work as anything but slaves.
21:34:21 <Bike> Major international hominid rights debate there
21:35:40 <zzo38> oerjan: I think they should just make /wIkI/MaIn_pAgE to redirect.
21:36:39 <kmc> i love how git add -p lets you edit individual diff hunks
21:36:43 <kmc> and i am basically supernaturally good at this
21:39:39 <olsner> I don't think I've ever tried the command line version of that ... git gui is very handy for it
21:41:51 <oerjan> clearly they are sentient uranium hth
21:41:59 <valer> Bike, I see you have an enviably lush head of hair.
21:42:16 <Bike> uh, that's not me. i'm a bike, not a human.
21:43:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm plausible
21:46:13 <kmc> god damn Crystal Castles is so good
21:46:25 <kmc> I could be seeing Alice Glass perform at a club tonight if I had my shit even a little together to buy tickets etc
21:49:30 <kmc> what's that
21:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> when only realised the fringe was happening during the fireworks show at the end
22:14:01 <Bike> hey someone give me a function where finding its fixed point(s) is impossible computably
22:18:36 <Bike> yeah but i'm too lazy to think of one.
22:18:41 <Bike> Fiora: i'm pretty sure you can prove BB(x) > x
22:19:13 <Bike> oh, of course you can. BB(x) grows faster than any computable function, and identity is computable
22:20:33 <Fiora> so BB(x) has no fixed point I guess?
22:20:45 <elliott> that technically satisfies Bike's requirement
22:20:56 <Fiora> a lot of things don't have fixed points though, right?
22:21:25 <Bike> elliott: ok how about "finding the fixed points or lack thereof is not computable", smartass :p
22:22:04 <Fiora> f(x) = (is the collatz conjecture true ? x : x+1)
22:22:15 <Bike> oh, i guess that actually works pretty well
22:22:34 <Bike> also i'm kind of curious about the complexity really, like computing a polynomial is pretty easy but computing its fixed points is rootfinding which is less easy
22:23:05 <Fiora> do you mean "is there a computable function for which cmoputing fixed points is uncomputable"?
22:23:26 <Bike> yeah, though it doesn't have to be computable itself, i guess, i only want it for an example
22:23:28 <elliott> well I don't understand Bike's question
22:23:49 <elliott> since like if the codomain is the integers then any given fixed point is an integer
22:24:17 <elliott> and any other way of "finding" it is just a longwinded way to compute a constant
22:25:11 <elliott> and like Fiora's function, finding a fixed point of it is trivial iff the Collatz conjecture is true, the problem there is more in knowing what the function is at all, so I kind of don't understand how it satisfies Bike's requirements
22:25:16 <elliott> but uh I don't know any of this stuff really
22:25:33 <Fiora> neither do I , I don't reallyh get it
22:27:50 <Bike> it's not that important
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22:54:24 <zzo38> Does GitHub have any simpler webpage without all of the fancy stuff on it?
22:54:54 <shachaf> zzo38: To accomplish what?
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22:55:22 <zzo38> shachaf: To make it faster.
22:55:57 <zzo38> I think some SVN repositories have that, where you just get a directory listing with absolutely nothing else.
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23:16:03 <zzo38> Is there any way to enter a low-bandwidth mode or something like that?
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