00:00:03 <nys> that's kinda up
00:00:06 <kmc> good symbol
00:00:21 <zzo38> nys: What is that?
00:00:26 <Taneb> The main argument against Haskell seems to be "nobody understands Haskell"
00:00:36 <Bike> that's pretty up, imo
00:00:41 <nys> zzo38: msvc++ mangled name
00:00:46 <kmc> but what is it up
00:00:55 <Bike> msvc's stupid ass?
00:01:03 <Taneb> Apart from the C guy who's saying "C is simple and uncluttered and fast. Everything else is awful"
00:01:05 <Bike> stupid stupid dumb, my premier insult
00:01:11 <Bike> this sounds terrible
00:01:18 <mnoqy> why are you in this discussion
00:01:29 <Taneb> mnoqy, because if I leave it'll end up with C++
00:01:49 <Bike> it's going to end up in python and PHP
00:02:10 <Bike> so anyway, should i read this book about tajikistan or this one about optics.
00:02:14 <Taneb> Then I'd have to learn C++!
00:06:42 -!- dessos_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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00:10:02 <Sgeo> "It looks like quite an intense experience, but apparently it will be extremely smooth and comfortable despite of the incredible speeds:"
00:10:16 -!- dessos has joined.
00:10:17 <Sgeo> It seemed obvious to me that it's acceleration that counts and not speed
00:10:59 <Bike> don't go with your crazy theories here, newton
00:14:00 <Phantom_Hoover> if anything the faster you travel the smoother the ride
00:14:19 <Bike> what about relativistic effects!
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00:14:46 <Bike> goodnight TRAITOR
00:16:31 <Bike> one of what. the traitors? yes, we must ccarry out a purge.
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00:30:42 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover: not sure I get it (beyond being a shorter ride)
00:30:57 <Sgeo> Shorter ride inside than outsid
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00:42:46 <nooodl> http://www.aclweb.org/anthology-new/C/C08/C08-2028.pdf good
00:43:35 <nooodl> oh my god the picture of the actual robots on page 3. amazing
00:47:22 <nooodl> "Since the robots are supposed to say stupid things anyway, if they do so by mistake instead of on purpose it can still be funny."
00:48:50 <elliott> "Next, one robot uses a proverb or saying in
00:48:50 <elliott> Japanese, along the lines of “Recently my life has
00:48:50 <elliott> felt like ’jack of all trades, master of none’, you
00:48:50 <elliott> know.” The other robot then makes a vulgar joke
00:48:50 <elliott> by modifying this, perhaps like “For me it has been
00:48:52 <elliott> more like ’jacking off all trades, masturbate none’,
00:50:52 <elliott> I really hope these routines are funnier in the original Japanese
01:02:32 <elliott> "The main merits of the Robovie-i are that
01:02:33 <elliott> it is easily programmable, cheap, and cute."
01:03:44 <Fiora> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/12/20_injured_at_lg_smartphone_giveaway_as_pr_stunt_turns_sour/ wow, this was a terrible idea
01:04:02 <Fiora> "let's release balloons with coupons for free phones. nobody is going to show up with bb guns and shoot at them"
01:04:27 <kmc> bahahahaha
01:04:51 <Bike> "knives on sticks"
01:05:26 <Bike> hey americans do any of you have experience with i-9
01:05:54 <kmc> the form that proves you can work in the US?
01:06:06 <kmc> sure i've filled out a few I-9s in my day, what's up
01:06:25 <Bike> well just, do i seriously need to get my dad to mail me my birth certificate.
01:06:44 <Bike> fuck, that lady really has a polearm
01:07:03 <shachaf> why do you need a birth certificate
01:07:12 <Bike> to prove that i'm a true blooded american
01:07:39 <shachaf> i just used a passport i think
01:07:53 <Bike> darned foreigners
01:08:20 <Bike> darned foreigner-sympathisizers
01:09:09 <shachaf> anyway there are a bunch of different things that you can use
01:09:27 <kmc> i used a US passport too
01:09:27 <Bike> yes i have a table and they all involve mailing sensitive documents, so i wanna moan
01:10:22 <Bike> i have to get it mailed to me.
01:11:11 <shachaf> you don't have any of the things in LIST A?
01:11:33 <shachaf> presumably LIST B isn't so hard, or is it??
01:11:43 <Bike> You need list b and list c, if you don't have list a.
01:11:55 <Bike> and everything on list a is irrelevant to me other than a passport, which i don't have because: baby.
01:12:48 <shachaf> anyway do you have some kind of id?
01:13:16 <Bike> yeah, sure. but not list c.
01:13:35 <shachaf> i guess likely would be a social security card or birth certificate
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01:15:21 <Bike> Also, to get a passport I would need a SS card or whatever. Also doesn't it take like a couple months to get, and money.
01:15:40 <shachaf> oh, you don't have one of those either?
01:15:58 <shachaf> don't you need them for things
01:16:00 <Bike> i have an ss card. but not with me.
01:18:59 <shachaf> some internet page says "The employer (or representative) must personally review original documents only. Photocopies (including fax copies) or numbers representing original documents are not acceptable. The only exception to the photocopy rule is a certified copy of a birth certificate."
01:19:40 <shachaf> but i guess that's just as much trouble
01:19:48 <Bike> you can stop, shachaf. i just wanted to moan at the void.
01:20:22 <shachaf> otherwise how will you go to finland
01:20:39 <Bike> underground railroad
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02:42:33 <kmc> clowns will eat you
02:42:55 <FreeFull> It's a little known fact that I am poisonous to clowns
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02:46:50 <FreeFull> A clown tried to eat me once and he died right on the spot
02:46:55 <FreeFull> They've been staying away since
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02:47:20 <kmc> "Step into the future! Click here to switch to the beta php.net site"
02:48:04 <coppro> ekmett scares me sometimes
02:48:20 <Bike> ekmett is our lord and savior
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04:00:29 <Sgeo> Having trouble with the non-identity compression algorithms that compress some files make some files larger thing
04:00:44 <Bike> damn pigeonhole principle. DEAL WITH IT PIGEONS.
04:00:58 <zzo38> What trouble do you have?
04:01:29 <Sgeo> 4 bit files = 16 files, but there are 15 files that are smaller than that, so just one file could be left alone as a 4 bit file while the other 4 bit files get compressed. So no files end up larger.
04:01:52 <Bike> q: why are you compressing four-bit files
04:02:05 <Sgeo> As an example as I try to explain this stuff on Reddit
04:02:29 <Bike> Sgeo: consider the behavior on 1-bit, 2-bit, 3-bit files
04:02:42 <Fiora> I think the problem here is you're considering "the original size of the file" as part of the compressed information
04:02:45 <Fiora> which you don't actually know?
04:02:58 <Fiora> like, you're assuming the original file is 4 bits
04:03:19 <Bike> the problem is that if you're only compressing 4 bit files you can indeed get lossless shrinkage-or-equality
04:03:46 <Deewiant> Solution to disk space: specialize gzip for every possible file size
04:03:50 <Bike> one easy method would be stripping leading zeroes
04:04:22 <Bike> of course, the decompressor has to know that it should only get four-bit files.
04:05:08 <Fiora> Bike: this reminds me of like, the problem of universal codes
04:05:13 <Fiora> like, with golomb codes
04:05:26 <Fiora> if you need a universal code you need to signal not only the bits in the code, but how long the code is
04:06:01 <Fiora> so like golomb codes do it with something like "111 0 110"
04:06:12 <Fiora> the actual code is "0110" but the 1s are there to signal how long the code is?
04:06:18 <Fiora> so it's really 7 bits
04:06:29 <Bike> the length has to include itself, eh
04:07:42 <shachaf> how can you tell where the length stops
04:08:47 <Bike> i thought it was 111 as in seven.
04:08:50 <Fiora> so counting from 0 the codes are like
04:08:54 <shachaf> i thought that because Bike said that
04:09:10 <Bike> i am the deceiver
04:09:12 <Fiora> 0, 100, 101, 11000, 11001, 11010, 11011 ...
04:09:17 <Fiora> (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ...
04:09:39 <shachaf> is there a better way of encoding the length if it's big
04:09:46 <shachaf> for example encode the length of the length using that metho
04:10:05 <Fiora> you could design a different coding scheme optimized towards a different distribution of input values?
04:10:10 <Bike> would increase decoding time, though.
04:10:38 <Fiora> like if your input values are random between 0 and 1023, you just use a 10 bit code
04:11:03 <Fiora> but if they're biased towards 0 you could use shorter codes for smaller things at the cost of longer codes for bigger things?
04:13:16 <Deewiant> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_omega_coding
04:13:55 <shachaf> Deewiant: Right, I was thinking along those lines.
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04:14:21 <shachaf> Probably not really worth it past a small constant number of logarithms, though.
04:15:13 <Deewiant> Delta coding is visibly better than gamma coding but past that the difference is minimal.
04:15:39 <Deewiant> 'The encoding for a googol to the hundredth power, 10^10000, is 33243 bits long; under Elias delta coding, the same number is 33250 bits long.'
04:18:38 <Bike> > (length "a googol") * (logBase 2 (length ['\0'..]))
04:18:39 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
04:19:09 <Deewiant> > genericLength "a googol" * logBase 2 (genericLength ['\0'..])
04:19:30 <shachaf> (fromIntegral.length) is much better unless you're using lazy naturals.
04:19:31 <Deewiant> Shorter than (fromIntegral.length)
04:19:52 <Deewiant> And indeed better in that rare case, too
04:20:01 <shachaf> > ((fromIntegral.length) "a googol") * (logBase 2 ((fromIntegral.length) ['\0'..]))
04:20:46 <Bike> elias delta is clearly insufficient
04:25:00 <zzo38> The GNU AWK documentation has a section named "Undocumented Options and Features" which is intentionally left blank.
04:26:21 <shachaf> This section unintentionally left blank.
04:27:04 <Bike> what are your thoughts on idealism
04:29:42 <zzo38> What kind of idealism?
04:30:06 <Sgeo> This section unintentionally useful.
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04:44:12 <zzo38> I added a file into the Uselessness RPG 1 wiki for creating a backup copy. Please tell me if it is OK?
04:45:31 <zzo38> This is the file: http://hackiki.org/wiki/raw/bin/uselessness_rpg_1,,create_backup
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04:55:13 <zzo38> It was broken; now it is fixed.
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06:18:51 <zzo38> Please collaboration/discussion of ideas/plans of Uselessness RPG 1 (anyone is welcome to write a comment on it).
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06:55:03 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of the lamport signature scheme
06:57:25 <zzo38> Lamport signature looks like it could help some things.
06:57:49 <kmc> which things?
06:58:24 <zzo38> A few things are described on Wikipedia.
06:59:14 <zzo38> For example if you only need to sign it once, or you could use Merkle tree
06:59:28 <kmc> Merkle trees are great
07:04:18 <zzo38> And it looks like there may be other advantages too, in some cases.
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09:01:01 <fizzie> [[ In the name "Windows CE," the letters "CE" are not an abbreviation for anything, but rather they imply a number of the precepts around which Windows CE is designed, including "Compact," Connectable," Compatible," "Companion," and "Efficient." ]]
09:01:11 <fizzie> (Found while Googling for what the "RT" is for.)
09:10:06 <fizzie> Apparently it's officially for nothing in particular, but unofficially perhaps it stands for Windows Runtime (WinRT), the thing that "Windows 8 style" apps are written against.
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10:01:44 <fizzie> Huh. I think MATLAB (or some subpart of it) just managed to create a file named "C:\nppdf32Log\debuglog.txt" in the current directory.
10:03:15 <fizzie> I guess it's one of those programs where you enable debug logging by creating a directory. (And also one that hardcodes backslashes.)
10:07:42 <Deewiant> At least the one in my home directory at work is timestamped at around the time I used an X-forwarded firefox there this morning.
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10:23:50 <fizzie> I think it was MATLAB's help browser this time.
10:24:01 <fizzie> Since it was in the directory where I started MATLAB (and nothing else) from.
10:24:44 <fizzie> It probably uses some form of web browser internally, though.
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10:33:06 <fizzie> Another MATLAB weirdness: it only shows the splash but doesn't start if I run "matlab &", but it starts normally if I run "matlab", wait for the desktop to appear, then ^z and bg it.
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12:59:00 <boily> good liquefied morning!
13:06:12 <fizzie> I just spent close to an hour trying to figure out why this model is doing nothing, only to realize that I had mixed up the meanings of 'y' and 'x' when loading data.
13:10:20 <boily> fizzie: still deep into ML?
13:13:33 <fizzie> Yes. One of our reviewers wanted a better baseline (to some "competiting" method), so I guess I'll have to implement something, even if it really isn't the point of the paper.
13:14:56 <boily> yuck. I hate the term baseline, and even moreso when it concerns ML.
13:15:42 <boily> the prof I worked for was obsessed with a baseline. I never knew which baseline he was talking about.
13:17:50 <fizzie> We have the "standard" setup, a demonstrated feature enhancement dealie that's been published and benchmarked in other work, and (the main contribution here) a new trick that improves things, but reviewer #3 wants this paper to show also performance gains compared to completely different approaches, or otherwise there's "insufficient motivation for such a detailed study", or some-such.
13:18:18 <fizzie> (Reviewers #1 and #2, on the other hand, would like some extended analysis of the trick in question.)
13:18:31 <fizzie> Peer review in action can be a pretty ugly thing.
13:22:08 <boily> from the stories I've heard, academia scares me.
13:26:58 <fizzie> I'm not so much "in" it -- e.g., I have this graduate school funding thing going on, so I don't have much if at all to do with the stereotypical incessant writing of grant applications -- so I wouldn't know.
13:28:46 <boily> I wonder if being a grad student is the same the world over...
13:29:25 <fizzie> There certainly have been a number of parallels to phdcomics.com.
13:34:30 <fizzie> It's been quite a while.
13:34:54 <fizzie> "Simple 2D rendering API that can use Direct3D, OpenGL, OpenGL ES, or software rendering behind the scenes" it's like so this millennium now.
13:36:13 <fizzie> wiki.libsdl.org: "The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems."
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14:36:20 <boily> aaaaaaurgh. I have a colleague who prefixes his privmsgs with «@nick ...».
14:38:43 <Roujo> Well, that's alright
14:38:46 <Taneb> What, "/msg boily @boily hi"
14:38:49 <Roujo> Private messages? =P
14:40:24 <boily> just generic IRC PRIVMSG, so something like:
15:03:44 <boily> is there a list for lambdabot's unknown commands?
15:04:31 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:05:17 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:05:22 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:05:33 <Taneb> It's got fuzzy matching
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15:23:05 <boily> AnothelloTest, hezzo38.
15:23:42 <zzo38> That seems a strange way.
15:25:15 <boily> and my kobo doesn't seem to charge...
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15:40:00 <zzo38> I still cannot connect to *.foxpaws.net
15:41:18 <boily> it works here. it redirects to vulpes.foxpaws.net at 96.10.18.3.
15:41:54 <zzo38> I mean I cannot connect to any server under .foxpaws.net on any port number.
15:42:15 <zzo38> Therefore I cannot send a message to them or whatever.
15:42:31 <zzo38> (and the proxy doesn't work either)
15:43:10 <boily> weird. foxpaws resolves to what IP on your end?
15:44:04 <zzo38> Same as it does to you
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15:44:29 <zzo38> However I cannot connect to other servers under foxpaws.net either.
15:45:25 <boily> do you have an example of a not vulpes host?
15:45:59 <zzo38> There is vixen and watchfox; neither of those work either.
15:46:25 <boily> oh. it doesn't work indeed.
15:46:50 <zzo38> No port number works as far as I can see.
15:49:38 <boily> I just nmapped the thing. the usual ports are open (ssh, smtp, ident, ...). do you want the XML log?
15:50:11 <boily> (now, how do I send a file through weechat...)
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15:54:33 <zzo38> That's good, but I was trying to connect to port 8889; I tried other ports afterward to see if those would work, but they don't; so I cannot write a message at all (or read a message, but I was trying to write one). And one of the messages I was trying to write involves defects of the system (I put it in all one file so that I can just send the URL), but it appears too defective to do that.
15:54:50 <zzo38> And none of the ports you mention work for me on any of those three servers.
15:59:12 <zzo38> Even when it was working, the session sometimes restarted for apparently no reason, usually while on the chat menu but sometimes even before that.
16:00:36 <boily> what kind of fungotian servers are they? their purpose are very mysterious, and their operation a little bit too flaky.
16:00:36 <fungot> boily: they say that having polymorph control won't shock you sooner or later. his symbol is the haste that ye hurry by? brother, i hear it: to have been man's first instructors in the wild beast short. that was noble and great and small, has a certain ring to it, without incurring any fine or other penalty." the bushmen say that nethack is more pleasant than cram,' they answered. ' imp' properly means a small time they will st
16:06:19 <zzo38> I was playing a MUD game on there once, but I stopped due to the large number of defects in the system (and because I couldn't find the society/gods I wanted to select; someone told me to type all about it, so I did), and later I tried to reconnect to send messages relating to these things, and to access the help files, but I can't because it doesn't work.
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16:17:28 <zzo38> (And one of the things I wanted to tell them is that it doesn't work)
16:18:34 <zzo38> Does it work for you?
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16:58:32 <boily> zzo38: sorry, went out to lunch.
16:59:39 <boily> zzo38: what do you want me to check again?
16:59:49 <Taneb> Aaaaah I now own a 3DS
17:00:41 <zzo38> boily: Well, I wanted to send a message to them; one to "Foxbird" and one to "Priest of Old God" or something like that.
17:02:44 <fizzie> Nice subtitling: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130813-ok-intro.png "4k intro" => "ok-intro". (Sorry for the Finnish.)
17:05:42 <kmc> how did that happen?
17:06:40 <fizzie> Maybe they used SPEECH RECOGNITION. (Pre-empting elliott here.)
17:07:06 <boily> zzo38: looks like I'm in the same situation as you. nothing apart vulpes.foxpaws.net works. «Erreur de chargement de la page ― La connexion a échoué»
17:07:27 <boily> fizzie: is that a pun between “4” and “o”, or just poor subtitlement?
17:07:30 <zzo38> How does that mean in English?
17:07:39 <fizzie> boily: The latter, I think.
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17:14:32 <kmc> the Rust runtime library is written in Rust now
17:14:39 <kmc> that's pretty cool, and more interesting than a self-hosting compiler imo
17:14:59 <zzo38> Probably it is better than a self-hosting compiler, too.
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17:15:15 <Roujo> "It's not self-hosting until the whole stack is using the language, from the compiler to the OS."
17:15:23 <kmc> how ya figgure
17:16:00 <Vorpal> Anyone have any suggestions for good backup programs for Linux? Looking for some way to automate incremental backup of the entire system. Previously I just mirrored with rsync, but now I'm looking for something that provides a bit of history as well.
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17:16:45 <Deewiant> rsync + checkpointing filesystem
17:17:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what checkpointing file systems do Linux support?
17:17:30 <Vorpal> But that is indeed an interesting idea
17:17:46 <Vorpal> Linux supports ZFS? Since when?
17:17:47 <Deewiant> I guess snapshotting is the actual term
17:17:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I use a set of scripts built around rdiff-backup; it's pretty much like rsync except it does backwards-diff history on top.
17:18:06 <Vorpal> Also isn't brtfs in development still?
17:18:26 <Deewiant> Duplicity is another thing similar to rdiff-backup, IIRC
17:18:27 <fizzie> (There's also something very much like rdiff-backup, I forget the name.)
17:18:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's probably what I was thinking of.
17:18:50 <Deewiant> And yes, btrfs is a work in progress, I don't actually know if it does snapshotting yet
17:18:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm nice, how easy would it be to extract a single file from a given version? Or browse what an old version looked like to try and find a file?
17:19:20 <fizzie> I haven't really been needing to do that, so can't say.
17:19:44 <fizzie> The latest version is easily browseable since it's just there, of course.
17:20:13 <fizzie> And you can ask the command-line tool for "newest before this date" kind of things, sure.
17:20:34 <fizzie> At least I recall so; haven't had the occasion to.
17:21:53 <Deewiant> "Like duplicity, [rdiff-backup] uses the rsync algorithm for bandwidth and space efficiency, but instead of storing data in encrypted archives, it creates a mirror on the remote system."
17:22:27 <CADD> all i have to say is: https://github.com/philipl/pifs
17:23:35 <boily> looks like I'm not the only one to repost the pifs thing :D
17:23:47 <Deewiant> Also I think the Tarsnap tools are free
17:24:11 <CADD> CADD: lemme guess /r/math?
17:24:44 <Vorpal> "They said 100% compression was impossible? You're looking at it!" <-- false, the position of the file in pi might take a larger number to express than the file content itself.
17:24:59 <boily> CADD: I don't know what you're talking about. any evidence of me spending way too much time on reddit is false.
17:25:01 <CADD> Vorpal: you are completely right.
17:25:10 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Just store the position in pifs as well
17:25:10 <Roujo> I think I posted that in here yesterday
17:25:14 * boily points to metasepia "the bot did it!"
17:25:28 <CADD> boily: hehe.. i like reddit for the archives. if you unsub from the overcrowded subs then reddit is pretty palitable
17:25:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I apply the pidgin hole principle.
17:25:36 <Deewiant> Vorpal: (And if that takes too much space store the position of that in pifs etc, recursively)
17:26:08 <Roujo> Deewiant: But then you also have to store the number of recursions you've done =P
17:26:10 <boily> CADD: indeed. I still do like todayilearned, mind you. I just have this insatiable urge to consume random trivia.
17:26:24 <Roujo> (Ideally, store that into pifs as well)
17:26:28 <Deewiant> Roujo: Just shove it all in pifs, it's free after all
17:26:48 <CADD> boily: yeah, reddit is a goldmine in its archives. thats mostly where i hang around in.. lol
17:26:51 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you would need to store for each iteration then if it was the file or if it was another address.
17:27:26 <boily> but pifs has some serious security problems with people all using the same constant. the government has direct access to everything you wrote, you're writing or might write!
17:27:39 <CADD> either way the 100% compression is facetious
17:27:44 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Just to be different you can store that info in √2fs
17:27:57 <Roujo> boily: Yes, but separating that from the random crap is pretty much a lost cause
17:27:57 <CADD> boily: oh yeah
17:28:27 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I believe efs would work too
17:28:31 <Roujo> Suggestion: Finding the binary representation of some CP picture in pi, then suing everyone who has a copy.
17:28:56 <Roujo> Vorpal: I nearly forked pifs just to make that pun =P
17:29:01 <Roujo> I was at work, though, so I didn't
17:29:05 <Deewiant> Vorpal: EFS already exists (actually there are many of them)
17:29:25 <Bike> so, question. what can we know about the relation between a sequence and its position in pi (assuming it's normal)? like, are the length of the sequence and the length of its position comparable?
17:29:40 <Vorpal> yeah I think I heard the name before for a normal file system
17:30:04 <boily> Roujo: where do you work?
17:30:06 <CADD> currently using rieserfs, liking it very much..
17:30:14 <CADD> funny using a murderers fs.. :)
17:30:15 <Bike> Vorpal: is one necessarily shorter, say
17:30:20 <Roujo> Programmer at Dicom Express, sur Côte-de-Liesse
17:31:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, really? I would have guessed that sometimes one would be longer and sometimes the other one would be longer.
17:31:20 <CADD> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser#Murder_investigation
17:31:46 <Bike> on average which is shorter?
17:31:48 <kmc> #[test] #[ignore(cfg(windows))] #[should_fail] fn select_doesnt_get_trolled() { select::<PortOne<()>>([]); }
17:31:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, on average they would be of similar lengths probably?
17:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the definition of normal is that a sequence of length n in base b has probability b^-n
17:33:42 <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a murderer, the program itself isn't a murderer so that doesn't make it wrong
17:33:53 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a murderer, the program itself isn't a murderer so that doesn't make it wrong
17:34:01 <HackEgo> 1090) <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a murderer, the program itself isn't a murderer so that doesn't make it wrong
17:34:23 <CADD> zzo38: i know. its a good piece of software. just an interesting bit of history
17:34:48 <kmc> well the murder directly caused the end of development on reiserfs 4
17:35:00 <CADD> zzo38: i mean if i took some offence to it i wouldnt be using it.. :)
17:35:35 <Vorpal> reiserfs isn't bad because the lead devloper later went on to murder his wife. That is irrelevant to the file system. It is bad because of the various problems the file system has, such as recovering data from a damaged reiserfs having various issues
17:35:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, that can be how it is.
17:35:56 <kmc> although it seems that it's not known whether the euler-mascheroni constant is even irrational
17:36:06 <Vorpal> I used reiserfs back when it was the only journaling file system (back during 2.4 or 2.2 I think?)
17:36:13 <CADD> Vorpal: interesting, i didnt know about that. I've heard its journaling system is pretty good though. any links?
17:36:16 -!- atrapado has joined.
17:36:35 <Bike> euler-mascheroni is a p. good constant
17:36:55 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ++
17:36:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh yeah, he has a far more eloquent way of expressing what I just said. ;)
17:37:14 <kmc> jeez just don't damage your filesystem
17:37:15 <kmc> what's the problem
17:37:43 <Bike> yes. yes indeed.
17:37:45 <Vorpal> kmc, wasn't there issues with storing a reiserfs in a loop image on a reiserfs iirc
17:37:51 <kmc> oh yeah that was funny
17:37:56 <Vorpal> kmc, might have been for file system recovery only, I don't remember
17:38:02 <Bike> i think we don't know if khinchin's constant is irrational either
17:38:09 <Bike> which is way weirder than not knowing about e-m, imo
17:38:18 <kmc> khinchin's constant is the weirdest
17:39:15 <kmc> maybe the aliens are transmitting on hydrogen times K_0 instead of hydrogen times pi
17:39:32 <Bike> "Among the numbers whose geometric mean of the coefficients ai in the continued fraction expansion apparently (based on numerical evidence) tends to Khinchin's constant are π, the Euler–Mascheroni constant γ, and Khinchin's constant itself. However, none of these limits has been rigorously established, even though it is known that almost all real numbers have this property."
17:39:45 <Bike> normal numbers all over again
17:40:58 <zzo38> What is hydrogen times K_0 and those stuff?
17:42:02 <Bike> in i think Contact (?) the aliens transmit information over the frequency of the spectral line of hydrogen times pi, or something
17:42:18 <HackEgo> 1089) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
17:43:05 <kmc> yeah what Bike said
17:43:58 <kmc> the fundamental whatever frequency of hydrogen is a good universal time/frequency reference, except that the universe is mostly made of hydrogen and your signals will get absorbed
17:44:06 <kmc> so multiply it by a unitless fundamental mathematical constant
17:45:40 <Bike> due to a misunderstanding it ends up being transmitted at hydrogen * the ratio of a foot to a meter
17:45:59 <Vorpal> Wouldn't it make more sense to simply double it or something. I suspect the electronics would be easier for that.
17:46:01 <kmc> hydrogen * pied
17:46:20 <kmc> Vorpal: 2 is a unitless fundamental mathematical constant, don't you think ;)
17:46:29 <CADD> Vorpal: still would have probably been absorbed
17:46:31 <Vorpal> kmc, I meant, as opposed to pi
17:46:44 <CADD> Vorpal: just my guess :)
17:46:48 <Bike> -1 is a fundamental mathematical constant :iiam:
17:47:49 <CADD> Vorpal: well actually at 1420.40575177 MHz, probably not
17:48:03 <Vorpal> kmc, also how many decimal places of pi are you multiplying the frequency with? Depending on that you would get slightly different frequencies
17:48:18 <boily> Bike: what is an iiam?
17:48:19 <kmc> Vorpal: depends on the bandwidth of the signal, I guess
17:48:21 <Vorpal> If you are sending on a narrow enough band that would cause an issue
17:48:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> kmc, also how many decimal places of pi are you multiplying the frequency with? Depending on that you would get slightly different frequencies
17:49:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "<Vorpal> If you are sending on a narrow enough band that would cause an issue"
17:49:19 <Bike> is that necessary phantom
17:49:38 <kmc> don't be a dick
17:49:54 <kmc> I mean I would probably generate pi digitally
17:50:08 <Bike> hm, maybe i should read some khinchin, as long as i'm doing commie maths
17:50:39 <Bike> "Khinchin graduated from the university in 1916 and six years later he became a full professor there, retaining that position until his death [in 1959]" tenure sure is crazy
17:50:42 <CADD> speaking of generating pi AND continued fractions; one of my favorate mathematicians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan
17:50:48 <kmc> if indirectly, e.g. to position the laser which cuts the crystal to have hydrogen * pi frequency
17:50:59 <kmc> are there any cool analog ways to compute pi, by the way?
17:51:12 <kmc> there's the thing where you throw sticks at a grid lattice
17:51:13 * boily shakes Bike with an interesting frequency profile “WHAT IS AN IIAM???!!!!11!!!!one!!!!”
17:51:18 <Bike> well what do you mean by compute i guess
17:51:19 <Roujo> Baking one then measuring it?
17:51:26 <Vorpal> kmc, how would you modulate your signal once you have the frequency btw? AM? FM? PSK? Or something else?
17:51:29 <Bike> otherwise i'd just.... "hey, here, a circle"
17:52:07 <kmc> Vorpal: in _Contant_ the basic carrier / get-your-attention signal is on-off-keying of the first n prime numbers in unary
17:52:13 <kmc> _Contact_*
17:52:16 <kmc> that seems pretty reasonable
17:52:22 <Fiora> kmc: you could, like, wrap a string around a circle
17:52:40 <Vorpal> kmc, that seems like a really inefficient modulation
17:52:46 <Bike> unrelated: i always mentally compare contact with his master's voice, where the get-your-intention is just repetition
17:52:47 <Vorpal> for any data transfer that is
17:53:11 <Bike> they harvest neutrino spin data to make random numbers and somebody who wanted random complains when the sequence starts repeating
17:53:12 <kmc> Vorpal: sure; once they notice your signal, you can expect them to put in more effort to decode a second, more efficient form of modulation
17:53:37 <Bike> or neutrino... something... i don't know physics
17:54:28 <CADD> Bike: background radiation is usually a pretty good RNG: http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/hardware3.html
17:54:52 <Bike> well yeah, the fact they're getting a repetitive signal out of something that's usually a RNG is what kicks off the plot.
17:55:13 <Bike> because it's caused by ~aliens~ (probably)
17:55:23 <Bike> the book's a lot more pessimistic than contact, really.
17:55:44 <CADD> Bike: ooh, i didnt know that was from the movie
17:56:18 <Bike> i am talking about a book that is not contact
17:56:37 <kmc> http://stefangeens.com/2005/04/talking-to-aliens-part-iii-khinchins-constant-source-of-wonder/ what do you think of the last few paragraphs here
17:57:48 <Bike> "What is so special about K? It is one of the very few numbers capable of giving the driest of mathematical texts exclamatory hiccups." heh!
17:58:14 <Bike> continued fractions are weird. they're pretty cool but not really used that much i think
17:58:42 <CADD> Bike: yeah and Ramanujan was the master of continued fractions
17:59:00 <CADD> Bike: too bad he died so young..
18:00:10 <CADD> "Ramanujan's series for # converges extraordinarily rapidly (exponentially) and forms the basis of some of the fastest algorithms currently used to calculate #. Truncating the sum to the first term also gives the approximation 9801\sqrt{2}/4412 for #, which is correct to six decimal places."
18:00:36 <CADD> its copied from the wiki page about hit
18:01:23 <Bike> i think my favorite ramanujanisms are the iterated root things, probably because i can actually understand them
18:02:15 <CADD> what is it called?
18:03:00 <Bike> oh, it's "nested" for some reason
18:03:18 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nested_radical#Some_identities_of_Ramanujan e.g.
18:03:41 <Bike> also infinitely nested radicals, which is what i was thinking of
18:04:14 <Bike> kmc: "What does this imply? It implies that the sequence of whole numbers that describes K, [...] is simultaneously described by K" i dunno about this, as descriptions go i'd usually expect a one to one mapping not a one to everything mapping
18:04:31 <kmc> how do you mean
18:05:02 <Bike> like, K "describes" real numbers (with probability one) by this meaning
18:05:08 <Bike> which isn't really what i'd think "describes" as meaning.
18:06:37 <Bike> not that K might not be a good choice, i just don't think it as obviously signifies self-reference as the author seems to think
18:07:02 <kmc> yeah me either
18:07:48 <Bike> plus, i dunno, there's a lot of speculative xenopsychology you have to do here, that ties in uncomfortably with philosophy of mathematics, and we really don't have any other data on understanding of math but in humans
18:08:00 <kmc> standard sort of waving your hands and saying "strange loop!"
18:08:09 <kmc> which is about the only thing you can do with the "strange loop" concept, fun though it is
18:08:29 <Bike> i've kind of been less enamored of hofstadter lately, it's sad
18:08:42 <kmc> xenopsychology and exo-politics
18:09:01 <kmc> IAASL was a pretty depressing book for me
18:09:02 <boily> do we have any sentient non-humans on this channel?
18:09:09 <kmc> fungot: are you sentient?
18:09:09 <fungot> kmc: they say that a diamond is another kind of great dark worm, but three lefts do. these were the thirteen choosers of the king, by edith hamilton), farma- god ( god of commerce, trade and travellers. he has been a bit of a lion, a thirty-league stretch of potholes and half-buried rocks that spirals around mountains and dips into cool green valleys of citrus trees, crosses liana-webbed gorges on creaking rope bridges and is t
18:09:18 <kmc> _I Am A Strange Loop_
18:09:40 <Bike> i never read iaasl
18:09:42 <boily> oh. thanks for the mentionment. I find that I lack depressing books.
18:09:50 <kmc> in which Hofstadter restates the thesis of GEB but without any of the playfulness
18:09:54 <zzo38> But three lefts do what?
18:09:57 <kmc> it's just like "damn it you guys didn't get it the first time"
18:10:00 <Bike> i got fluid analogies but after a while it was just like, why don't you get some evidence instead of making up interesting toys
18:10:00 <kmc> "let me spell it out"
18:10:19 <kmc> also he's sad because his wife died
18:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> that puts his harem of beautiful french women in a decidedly harsher light
18:10:40 <Bike> well the french one was wife-death-centric but pretty good, i think
18:10:52 <kmc> hofstadter has a harem of beautiful french women?
18:11:18 <Bike> french one meaning ton beau, i mean
18:11:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: theme: not found
18:11:34 <kmc> Bike: i read a little of that book, it seemed pretty cool
18:11:46 <Bike> kmc: i thought it was, though i'm monolingual
18:11:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:11:53 <zzo38> I wrote a quine with FurryScript by now.
18:12:10 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
18:12:14 <boily> zzo38: how dare you being on-topic.
18:12:38 <kmc> you should write a quine named mefloquine
18:12:40 <Bike> kmc: lots of cute stuff about lipograms and serious stuff about the very real difficulties of translation, complete with music analogies
18:12:58 <Bike> i forget if that book got me into Lem but it might have, and if so it's automatically good
18:13:08 <kmc> I still think GEB is a good book although my recommendation comes with some qualifiers now
18:13:11 <zzo38> kmc: What is a mefloquine?
18:13:14 <kmc> which basically boil down to "don't take it too seriously"
18:13:18 <kmc> zzo38: an anti-malarial drug
18:13:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i will say this in hofstadter's defence, he's far far better than wolfram
18:13:37 <kmc> zzo38: which can cause vivid terrifying dreams as a side effect
18:13:43 <Bike> phantom that's like saying vietnam is better than the khmer rouge
18:14:19 <kmc> Captain Planet / He's our hero / Gonna take polution / Down to zero / By de-industrializing the planet and killing 90% of the population
18:14:24 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:14:32 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is better than Wolfram
18:14:38 <Bike> the frustrating thing about hofstadter for me is basically psychologist's fallacy, because i mean he's not a crank or anything, obviously.
18:14:46 <kmc> which fallacy is that
18:15:05 <zzo38> I think Godel,Escher,Bach is a very good book; I do not agree with everything written there but I agree some and you can read a book it is good whether or not you agree.
18:15:13 <Bike> the one where you take your conscious experience of a mental event to be true of the mental event, and of that sort of mental event in general
18:15:23 <Bike> like "hm i think with analogies, this must be the basis for cognition"
18:15:28 <kmc> GEB is still a great intro to formal metamathematics
18:15:31 <kmc> accessible yet precise
18:15:40 <kmc> and the rest of the book is fun if you don't take it too seriously
18:15:41 <Bike> definitely. it's the only one i can think of but still good
18:15:49 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, although I think it is a pretty good book in general.
18:15:49 <kmc> 16 year old kmc may have taken it too seriously
18:15:55 <Bike> maybe to mock a mockingbird? i haven't read that.
18:15:57 <kmc> but that's OK
18:16:06 <kmc> Bike: that's pretty different stuff i think
18:16:16 <Bike> i imagine it doesn't cover peano arithmetic, no
18:16:17 <kmc> I don't know what all it covers, whether it gets to Gödel and such
18:16:37 <boily> I remember reading “The Quark and the Jaguar”, and being thoroughly confused.
18:16:43 <Bike> GEB's a hard game to top, really, i mean how many math books have won a pulitzer
18:16:50 <kmc> combinatory calculus would be a less conventional way to present Gödel etc, for sure
18:16:53 <kmc> but could be done
18:17:18 <coppro> google now has streetview in the tardis
18:17:19 <Bike> i think Mock does go into church numerals at least, so you could present godel in a conventionalish way
18:17:42 <kmc> does it have theorems and proofs as strings, though
18:17:52 <kmc> I mean sure you can encode that in pure lambda calc, but it's kind of ass-backwards
18:19:49 <zzo38> The quine in FurryScript is a bit based on the GEB so it says "ENIUQ" as the name of a subroutine; but it also takes advantage of a feature of FurryScript; if a template references a subroutine/list that doesn't exist, it will just output the template literally instead. Also, multiple values on the stack at the end have a line break in between; it takes advantage of that too.
18:20:32 <zzo38> Since anything on the stack at the end of a FurryScript program that isn't a string will be ignored, a simple program such as "42" will output nothing and isn't a quine.
18:20:52 <Bike> i think my favorite part of GEB is actually one of the pictures, of a cerebrum filled with correct small arithmetic equations, which together form a giant "2+2=5"
18:21:40 <zzo38> Bike: Yes that is good too, but there is things in the book I like it is good in general
18:21:44 <kmc> 2+2=5 (The lukewarm.)
18:22:03 <Bike> alas hofstadter is not into radiohead.
18:22:21 <kmc> how do you know?
18:22:42 <Bike> in ton beau de marot there's an extended analogy relating to how he personally doesn't like rock music
18:23:44 <Bike> clearly we need a hipper, younger, metalhead hofstadter
18:23:51 -!- kmc has set topic: Open your mind, we need you to fly | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
18:24:39 <kmc> Radiohead has a lot of songs that aren't "rock music" although that's not particularly one of them
18:25:08 * Bike imagines ledzep cover of Fitter Happier.
18:26:46 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:27:42 <zzo38> Why do you need you to fly?
18:28:08 <olsner> `learn radiohead is "rock music"
18:28:24 <fizzie> Open your fly, we need you to mind.
18:29:06 <zzo38> Why do you need you to mind?
18:30:00 <Bike> "In summary, a rational number is perfectly approximated by itself, but is badly approximated by any other rational number." math is deep
18:31:03 <zzo38> Bike: Does that really mean anything?
18:31:48 <Vorpal> Bike, to me that sounds like a very silly way to express it.
18:32:34 <Bike> yes, it's a summary, i'm reading about diophantine approximation
18:32:50 <metasepia> Originated or taught by Diophantus, the Greek writer on algebra.
18:33:11 <zzo38> Of course I don't fly, but I did once play a flying character in a computer game (now broken!!), and dream of being like that too once, but I don't fly; I need to open a wing to fly not a mind!
18:33:42 <Bike> more formally, say we're approximating p/q by another ratio a/b (such that it's not just a multiple); then abs(a/b - p/q) >= 1/(bq)
18:34:29 <zzo38> Bike: O, that would be more meaningful, then.
18:35:03 <Bike> which is bad compared to irrationals; for example for an algebraic number x of degree n you have abs(x - p/q) > c(x)/q^n for all p, nonzero q, where c(x) is constant rel. to x
18:36:11 <Bike> also, apparently if two reals are related by a mobius transform, they have the same continued fraction expansion except for a finite prefix. that's pretty cool imo
18:37:24 <Bike> guess it kinda makes intuitive sense though.
18:44:05 <fizzie> Diophantine ducks are the best ducks?
18:45:51 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlewood_conjecture wtf
18:47:59 <kmc> that's pretty weird
19:25:49 <shachaf> kmc: just use 1-10 like everyone else
19:27:37 <kmc> you are the confuser
19:27:45 <kmc> also what do you think of lamport signatures????
19:27:53 <kmc> I must know
19:27:56 <shachaf> help you asked about that yesterday and i was going to read about them
19:28:25 <kmc> imo do that now
19:29:06 <boily> ~duck lamport signature
19:29:07 <metasepia> In cryptography, a Lamport signature or Lamport one-time signature scheme is a method for constructing a digital signature.
19:30:45 <shachaf> kmc: oh, that's not complicated
19:30:55 <kmc> it's so nice :)
19:30:57 <shachaf> it's like a zero knowledge proof thing
19:31:10 <kmc> in that it uses a committment scheme? (somewhat ad-hoc)
19:31:33 <kmc> it's non-interactive though
19:34:11 <shachaf> The whole thing where you can only use a key once isn't great.
19:34:36 <kmc> you can use Merkle trees to publish a whole bunch of keys at once (they were invented for this application)
19:34:53 <kmc> but you still need to keep track of which ones you've used, which is bad
19:35:21 <boily> how come tracking your used keys is bad?
19:35:38 <kmc> if that information gets stale somehow, you will compromise security
19:35:51 <kmc> or if you want to sign messages from multiple devices
19:36:16 <kmc> (probably it would be best to partition your various merkelized one-use keys among the devices ahead of time)
19:36:18 <shachaf> by the way, is there a provably secure authentication thing like a one-time pad are provably secure for encryption
19:36:39 <kmc> it's neat how much engineering there is in cryptography
19:36:47 <kmc> rather than just high level math I will never understand
19:38:01 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know; you should ask ##crypto maybe
19:38:20 <kmc> you could send your message in the clear and also OTP encrypted
19:38:35 <kmc> and the receiver "verifies" by decrypting and comparing
19:39:04 <shachaf> but someone could tamper with both
19:39:22 <boily> with all the crypto-scares floating on the intarwebs, is there only a single guy out there that can do crypto right?
19:39:31 <shachaf> by xoring both with something
19:39:31 <boily> (modulo schneier, obviously)
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19:39:36 <kmc> shachaf: yeah you're right
19:39:41 <shachaf> i mean, if you send that, you've sent your secret otp key
19:39:53 <kmc> what I said is total nonsense
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20:07:36 <zzo38> Washizu mahjong results in vey different strategies from ordinary mahjong.
20:09:08 <shachaf> kmc: so there's http://web.mit.edu/6.857/OldStuff/Fall97/lectures/lecture3.pdf
20:09:49 <kmc> yeah, i found that
20:13:32 <zzo38> Do you mean, about Washizu mahjong? With most of the tiles being transparent and the way the teams and payment works, it is a very different kind of game.
20:15:24 <boily> yeah, did you play washizu? I'm curious about the strategies involved and the amount of stress and sweating and internal dialog and drama and cliffhangers.
20:21:54 <zzo38> I didn't really play mahjong much at all. I have once played at some anime convention, the Washizu mahjong, but other than that I haven't play much except in the computer game "Akagi DS".
20:22:19 <zzo38> But from thinking about the rules, reading manga, and a little bit of playing such a game, I can know how difference it really is.
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20:29:22 <Bike> Fiora: guess who found the xenobiology labs at school
20:31:57 <Fiora> bike is a kid in the candy store :3
20:33:40 <Bike> @google "a two-tiered approach to assessing the habitability of exoplanets"
20:33:44 <lambdabot> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22017274
20:33:44 <lambdabot> Title: A two-tiered approach to assessing the habitabi... [Astrobiology. 2011] - Pub...
20:34:09 <Bike> also a giant board of research on positrons
20:35:13 <boily> I want a positron plushie.
20:35:15 <Bike> also whatever the heck this is http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7451968
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20:46:58 <boily> *trumpet ♪* http://www.particlezoo.net/individual_pages/shop_positron.html *trumpet ♪*
21:04:04 <Bike> http://www.andrewt.net/blog/wp-content/old/map8.jpg
21:04:18 <Bike> i'm a big fan of greenland being sucked into the void.
21:04:45 <Bike> i mean. not the actual place. greenland is cool.
21:08:40 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:08:52 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:09:17 * boily pokes the void left by lambdabot
21:09:30 <boily> Bike: that is some disorienting map.
21:10:58 <Bike> mercator projections are great, apparnetly.
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21:22:04 <boily> time to go see small pixelised characters attack other small pixelised characters.
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21:56:11 <zzo38> Can we do collaboration to make up some computer game, do you want to do so? Is it good so far what I put in myself?
21:56:28 <shachaf> What have you put in yourself so far?
21:56:44 <zzo38> Why don't you look at it? It is too long to write in this IRC.
21:57:36 <zzo38> I case you forgot, here it is: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
21:57:58 <shachaf> Forgot? I've never seen that before.
21:58:27 <zzo38> Well, it doesn't matter whether or not you have ever seen it before; if you don't remember now, then I can tell you.
22:00:54 <shachaf> zzo38: Can I make an unofficial sequel and call it "Uselessness RPG 1.5"?
22:01:10 <oerjan> @ask Vorpal you're not the Vorpal who is playing r/nommit, are you? i am assuming not but cannot resist asking.
22:01:24 <shachaf> @ask elliott to fix lambdabot
22:01:25 <zzo38> shachaf: If you want to, I suppose you can.
22:01:28 <oerjan> of course it would be more efficient if lambdabot were here
22:01:49 <Koen_> oerjan: are you saying there's a game of NOMIC currently running on REDDIT?
22:01:58 <shachaf> oerjan: If only everyone logread, @ask would be unnecessary!
22:02:14 <oerjan> Koen_: sure, also it's discussed some in ##nomic
22:02:22 <zzo38> shachaf: But before the sequel, we should make up the actual game, anyways. See the files listed there, and if you have anything to add or any comments, you can also add it on there yourself if you have OpenID
22:02:49 <oerjan> shachaf: it's ok it's probably fate trying to prevent me from getting the question through to Vorpal
22:03:19 <oerjan> Koen_: they also just advertised on the agora lists
22:03:30 <shachaf> zzo38: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,map_encoding is a broken link.
22:03:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I know; I didn't write all of the files yet.
22:03:57 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe you can answer my question: Why does (<|>) :: f a -> f a -> f a, while (<*>) :: f a -> f b -> f (a,b)?
22:04:09 <shachaf> You can turn (<|>) into f a -> f b -> f (Either a b) if you want
22:04:24 <shachaf> But you can't make an equivalent untyped version of (<*>).
22:04:37 <shachaf> (Ignore the fact that (<*>) is actually :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b.)
22:05:04 <zzo38> The <*> you described (which isn't the real one) is more like what I called "liftPair"
22:05:06 <Koen_> oerjan: I keep trying to convince myself that I follow what's going on on the agora list
22:06:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Is the other files OK though?
22:06:50 <zzo38> (I am writing the map encodings now)
22:07:07 <oerjan> Koen_: it was "just" as in slightly earlier today, though.
22:07:08 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know. The website is very slow.
22:08:30 <zzo38> shachaf: That is Gregor's job; not mine. (You can also download a backup of all of the files if you like to do that; it outputs a shell script which will recreate all of the files, including the program for making the backups.)
22:09:52 <Koen_> I was busy socializing
22:10:06 <zzo38> Now a short part of the "map_encoding" file is written.
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22:27:27 <zzo38> Do you like these kind of unusual ideas?
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22:36:42 <nooodl> zzo38: i don't like how the game is written in Z-machine
22:36:53 <nooodl> that makes it hard to collaborate
22:37:39 <zzo38> nooodl: Well, I suppose it doesn't make it *easy* to collaborate, but this is in wiki so I mean collaborate in wiki; this would be done regardless of the system it is written in.
22:39:00 <zzo38> Therefore nobody (other than myself) needs to do anything special due to being Z-machine.
22:42:35 <Koen_> so you can download a backup that will output a script that will recreate the program that makes the backups?
22:42:45 <Koen_> soudns complicated and circular
22:43:14 <zzo38> It isn't really so complicated; the program that makes the backups just happens to be a file like any other, so that is why it does that.
22:44:16 <zzo38> Koen_: If you try then you can see how it works.
22:44:34 <oerjan> <zzo38> But three lefts do what? <-- make a right, in the usual joke
22:45:02 <Koen_> unless you tell me that it's all z-code and I don't want to download the z-machine thing
22:45:36 <Koen_> I tried Inform 7 and I found it incredibly bad
22:45:38 <zzo38> Koen_: There isn't any Z-machine file of this game yet, anyways. But the backup program is just a shell script anyways, not Z-machine. It is plain text so it will display inline.
22:45:58 <zzo38> I don't like Inform 7 either, but it isn't the only programming language for Z-machine; I am using Frolg, which I wrote myself.
22:46:10 <zzo38> I think someone in here mentioned the "grep ''" trick; I used that in the backup script.
22:46:16 <Koen_> see that's the problem there
22:47:09 <Koen_> interactive fiction isn't something new and it should be easy to do
22:47:25 <zzo38> And there is no need for anyone other than myself to know the programming language used since I will program it myself; but the collaboration would be for the planning/ideas.
22:47:41 <Koen_> the simple fact that you would find it more convenient to write your own language than to use one that already exists shows how bad things are
22:47:47 <zzo38> (as well as such things as music and graphics, but this game doesn't have any graphics)
22:48:30 <zzo38> Koen_: I already did write the Frolg assembler (it is a macro assembler; the other Z-machine assemblers don't support macros).
22:49:03 <zzo38> Other programming languages for Z-machine include ZIL, Inform 6, ZAP, Zasm, Inform 7, Frolg.
22:49:59 <zzo38> But in order to make everything fit in the way I want to, my program is the only one sufficient.
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23:02:52 <oerjan> <Bike> Fiora: guess who found the xenobiology labs at school <-- now you just have to find where they hide the aliens hth
23:03:09 <oerjan> @ask Vorpal you're not the Vorpal who is playing r/nommit, are you? i am assuming not but cannot resist asking.
23:06:47 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
23:17:50 <kmc> apparently "if False: yield None" is a Python idiom
23:18:26 <kmc> well put it inside 'def' and you have a generator that generates an empty sequence
23:18:28 <Bike> do you have to put a "yield" into a coroutine for the interpreter or some shit
23:18:48 <kmc> if the body of a 'def' contains a yield statement anywhere, it has totally different semantics
23:19:09 <kmc> namely a 'call' to the function won't execute any of the body, but will return an object where calling .next() runs until the next yield
23:19:30 <Bike> so, right, bullshit.
23:19:53 <kmc> basically yeah
23:20:24 <kmc> this came up because https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-August/005169.html
23:21:05 <kmc> btw if any of you want to be involved in the design of an interesting, serious PL that might even get used one day, you should subscribe to rust-dev and join mozilla #rust and stuff
23:21:09 <Bike> «The way "yield return" works in C# is that it rewrites the code into a state machine behind the scenes.» aha, i thought so
23:21:17 <kmc> coppro: fuck you, counterpoint
23:21:35 <coppro> kmc: but you're just supporting my argument
23:21:44 <kmc> seriously though, what's your problem with rust
23:23:46 <coppro> there's no consistency
23:23:52 <coppro> at any given time, much less next week
23:24:24 <kmc> yeah that is a fair criticism
23:24:45 <kmc> I spent all of last week porting a large codebase to deal with a month's worth of changes in Rust
23:24:50 <kmc> so believe me, I feel that
23:25:02 <coppro> I actually don't know so I could be full of shit
23:25:11 <coppro> but I get the impression that the devs don't actually have a clue what they're doing
23:25:12 <kmc> but like... the language isn't done yet, of course it's going to change, better to fix problems while we still can
23:25:29 <kmc> coppro: you're wrong about that, for sure
23:25:46 <kmc> if you don't want to use a language that changes rapidly then wait a year
23:25:59 <kmc> I think it is getting more consistent over time
23:26:04 <coppro> I mean, they're clearly competent devs
23:26:19 <coppro> but they don't display any ability to manage a useful project
23:26:32 <elliott> didn't you just say you don't actually know...
23:26:41 <kmc> I agree that the internal consistency of the language (at any given moment in time) is somewhat lacking
23:26:51 <kmc> I mean, I use Rust every day, so I have no shortage of gripes :)
23:27:22 <kmc> some of that is being fixed gradually
23:27:46 <kmc> some of it we are probably stuck with (like one-variant enums being different from structs) but also maybe not a huge deal
23:28:25 <kmc> or like the weird support for multi-parameter traits where the last type parameter is special :/
23:28:44 <kmc> and the special treatment of static vs non-static methods in traits
23:29:26 <kmc> I can't speak to the management skills of the Rust team, as I have zero management experience
23:30:35 <kmc> they are good developers and they are people who actually understand PL theory and research (which is astoundingly uncommon among people designing a PL)
23:30:51 <kmc> even if I wish more of them had known more Haskell years ago :)
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23:35:50 <shachaf> kmc: I think "struct" could be changed to be syntax sugar for a one-variant enum pretty backwards-compatibly.
23:36:38 <shachaf> Right now enum Foo { Foo { ... } } doesn't even work, though.
23:36:45 <shachaf> Which looks like some sort of namespacing issue?
23:39:01 <kmc> the other thing about Rust is that it's incredibly ambitious
23:39:22 <kmc> there's no existing language remotely close to mainstream that does what Rust is trying to do
23:44:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
23:45:00 <kmc> HEY GUYS I OWN A MACBOOK PRO
23:46:30 <kmc> i don't, I was mocking copumpkin's quit message
23:46:35 <Bike> i know someone who had to buy a macbook for school
23:46:39 <Bike> because that's a thing apparently
23:46:54 <kmc> "hey guys" is an idiom in my social circle
23:47:12 <elliott> that's the default quit message of a client I think
23:47:12 <shachaf> i've seen that idiom before
23:47:17 <Bike> she was unexcited, since she's not well-off, but i guess you Need One for the Arts
23:47:22 <elliott> like "sent from my iphone"
23:47:37 <kmc> meant to call out that somebody is dropping hints about being rich, or that they had sex recently or whatever
23:47:52 <kmc> elliott: that one at least has some purpose as "sorry for the brevity / poor spelling of this message"
23:48:03 <kmc> shachaf: I think it may be from SomethingAwful? most things are
23:49:15 <shachaf> kmc: should i pay :10bux: to learn more
23:49:30 <kmc> dunno, I really enjoyed having a SA forum subscription back in the day
23:49:33 <kmc> I don't use it much anymore
23:49:40 <kmc> I log in like once every 3 months, usually while drunk
23:49:42 <shachaf> it looks like it's more like :35bux:
23:49:45 <Bike> the science boards are actually kinda nice
23:49:54 <kmc> back in my day they had a pretty legit torrent subforum
23:49:57 <kmc> shachaf: how so?
23:50:06 <Bike> well you have to pay if you want an avatar or whatever.
23:50:14 <kmc> That's How They Get You™
23:50:18 <Bike> still ten bucks to read and post, though.
23:50:23 <shachaf> well, with the archive upgrade and the no-ads upgrade and the platinum upgrade
23:50:26 <kmc> you can also pay to change someone else's avatar, right?
23:50:50 <kmc> the Debate and Discussion threads were pretty good in the 2008 election and may have contributed to me winning big on Intrade
23:51:01 <kmc> uh the drugz subforum is good
23:51:03 <Bike> it's pretty great reading the linguist thread and they're talking about Pinker or whatever, and somebody has hateful redtext because of an argument elsewhere about vidya gamez
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23:51:11 <kmc> hahaha yes
23:51:34 <Bike> i heard recently a mod in the drugz forum got demodded because he suggested somebody addicted to heroin just try acid, or something like that
23:51:56 <kmc> acid has been studied for treating alcoholism
23:52:07 <kmc> and ibogaine is used to treat opiate addiction
23:52:09 <Bike> the idea was, instead of rehab
23:52:12 <Bike> for... some reason.
23:52:13 <kmc> in sketchy contexts
23:52:19 <kmc> but anecdotally does work
23:53:01 <kmc> I dunno man
23:53:05 <kmc> don't get addicted to heroin ok
23:53:11 <kmc> that's the best solution
23:53:20 <shachaf> are you saying i should just try it a few times instead
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23:56:24 <Bike_> really excited by this hardware failure thing.
23:56:46 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:57:43 <kmc> what kind of hardware failure?
23:58:03 <Bike_> when i jolt my netbook the network card dies. apparently.
23:58:06 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:58:36 <Bike> i mean, it was inevitable, this thing cost like two hundred bucks, but still irritating
23:59:35 <kmc> lately I'm using a $200 netbook from 6 years ago