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00:21:34 -!- kmc has set topic: Existentially unforgeable under adaptive chosen-message attacks | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
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01:04:22 <quintopia> how common is the use of gas for heating and cooking in the scan-the-navy-ahs?
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01:08:31 <Jafet> I doubt you will get more than a definnitive answer here.
01:09:46 <oerjan> for households in norway, i think almost nonexistent.
01:10:05 <oerjan> electricity used to be omnipresent for both.
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01:11:02 <oerjan> but maybe it's changed recently for environmental reasons, e.g. my new apartment has water-based heating.
01:11:57 <oerjan> ok it's somewhat fashionable for barbecues, at least :P
01:12:27 <oerjan> that's a recent development.
01:13:08 <oerjan> also for camping and summer houses it may be more common.
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01:18:03 <kmc> i love that you can buy natural gas powered air conditioners
01:18:10 <kmc> it's like alchemy. using fire to make stuff cold
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03:00:27 <shachaf> ion: It means I can run FTL again!
03:12:48 <tswett> oerjan: electricity for heating? ¿qué el fuck
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03:25:28 <oerjan> tswett: norway's electricity is something like 90% hydropower.
03:26:18 <oerjan> before we found the oil, it used to be called our "white gold"
03:28:03 <oerjan> well still does, i guess
03:40:04 <zzo38> Are there any better MUD systems than the one that I was playing before and quit because of the lack of difficult mode and so on?
04:24:10 <zzo38> Why can't I find a MUD?
04:24:33 <comex> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1kcvix/50_bytes_of_code_that_took_4gb_to_compile/cbo2kby
04:26:23 <elliott> "Turing complete in practice" :(
04:26:34 <comex> elliott: i was wondering if there is a more precise term.
04:26:41 <comex> i gave a reasonably precise definition
04:29:21 <comex> uh... no, not a finite state machine. the idea is to be able to compute an arbitrary function that uses a large amount of memory
04:29:46 <comex> (you *can* simulate a FSM for a fixed number of steps without difficulty)
04:30:28 <Bike> oh hey, it's not template garbage
04:30:48 <comex> pretty much is, actually
04:36:49 <comex> (and you can simulate an algorithm that uses a small amount of memory, but may be very difficult to analyze, such as an cryptographic hash, again without difficulty)
04:49:36 <Gracenotes> it's guaranteed to repeat a state if it runs for long enough
04:59:59 <Gracenotes> so it is possible to detect if something will halt
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06:13:00 <Jafet> “reasonable Turing-complete language, such as Brainfuck”
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06:48:10 <Gracenotes> via Wikipedia: The 1954 edition of the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians notoriously dismissed Rachmaninoff's music as "monotonous in texture ... consist[ing] mainly of artificial and gushing tunes" and predicted that his popular success was "not likely to last". To this, Harold C. Schonberg, in his Lives of the Great Composers, responded, "It is one of the most outrageously snobbish and even stupid statements ever to be found in a work that is s
06:48:49 <Gracenotes> that may have gotten its tail cut off. any case.
07:10:45 <Jafet> Most popular music consists of artificial and gushing tunes.
07:10:58 <Jafet> Rachmaninov was merely pragmatic.
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07:27:37 <Gracenotes> maybe he wasn't able to take the time to work out a genuine tune because he was Russian
07:28:02 <Gracenotes> (Oh, printing press, how you've ruined puns.)
07:33:47 <oklopol> comex: are you trying to ask, in your post, whether there is a function f from turing maching programs to c++ template programs such that |f(w)|/|w| is bounded and w and f(w) are somehow equivalent as programs? (i did not understand any of it, just guessing)
07:36:14 <oklopol> "without taking an exponential amount of space to describe the function compared to the normal representation (i.e. you can't just list every possible input,output pair)"
07:37:01 <oklopol> what's the normal representation
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07:39:16 <Taneb> I've got a place at the University of York!
07:39:38 <oklopol> :T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U
07:40:12 <Taneb> shachaf, it's like Old Old New York
07:40:33 <shachaf> as far as yorks are concerned, the newer the better imo
07:40:42 <shachaf> even the new one is getting kind of old
07:41:13 <shachaf> Taneb: are you going to go studentize there
07:41:29 <Taneb> I am going to studentize maths and computer science
07:42:07 <kmc> congrats Taneb
07:42:22 <kmc> congratsneb
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07:56:55 <Jafet> oklopol: what is the complexity class of lambda calculus terms where you can only evaluate each term to a depth of 17 (yes this is still C++)
07:59:41 <oklopol> oh is he talking about the recursion limit
08:00:56 <oklopol> i did not quite catch the connection between the first and the second paragraph
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08:12:24 <Taneb> So I for the first time will receive Computer Science education in an official capacity in October
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08:18:36 <oklopol> i might not take another math course like _ever_ :(
08:19:10 <Taneb> oklopol, aren't you like really old like 28 or something
08:33:01 <FreeFull> Taneb: Why does oklopol secretly love you?
08:33:17 <Taneb> FreeFull, he secretly loves me!?
08:33:36 <FreeFull> 08:39:38 < oklopol> :T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U
08:33:56 <Taneb> Well, it must be a secret
08:34:17 <shachaf> Maybe because he doesn't reveal other people's secrets.
08:34:39 <FreeFull> Not a very big secret when it's posted in the wide open
08:35:34 <Taneb> And FreeFull that's just a sequence of silly faces
08:36:52 <FreeFull> > filter (\x -> x == ':' || x == ' ') ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:36:53 <lambdabot> ": : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :"
08:37:04 <FreeFull> > filter (\x -> x /= ':' || x /= ' ') ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:37:06 <lambdabot> ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:37:15 <FreeFull> > filter (\x -> x /= ':' && x /= ' ') ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:38:29 <shachaf> That decryption function looks kind of contrived.
08:38:46 <shachaf> You could make any message appear in that text with a sufficiently complicated decryption function.
08:38:49 <Taneb> But he's in the far away land of far away
08:39:05 <Taneb> And shachaf raises a very good point
08:39:10 <shachaf> > filter (\_ -> "ILOVEMONOIDSTHEYARESOEASY") ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:39:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Bool'
08:39:20 <shachaf> > (\_ -> "ILOVEMONOIDSTHEYARESOEASY") ":T :A :N :E :B :I :S :E :C :R :E :T :L :Y :L :O :V :E :Y :O :U"
08:39:38 <Taneb> I'd say that that decryption function is much simpler
08:40:01 <shachaf> > map length ["filter (\\x -> x /= ':' && x /= ' ')", "(\\_ -> \"ILOVEMONOIDSTHEYARESOEASY\")"]
08:41:07 <FreeFull> Well, we both have useless spaces
08:42:39 <shachaf> Anyway I'm not sure what "tane bisec retlyl ovey ou" even means.
08:42:55 <shachaf> Looks like gibberish to me.
08:43:01 <shachaf> Taneb: Wouldn't you agree?
08:43:02 <Taneb> shachaf, isn't "ovey" an exclamation associated with the Yiddish community?
08:43:35 <Taneb> And "bisec" could be short for "bisection"
08:43:45 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards. (see also: d-modules)
08:44:00 <Taneb> Maybe it's "tan e" rather than "tane"
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08:49:03 <FreeFull> shachaf: Well, the decoded message is missing its spaces
08:49:28 <FreeFull> I interpreted it as "TANEB I SECRETLY LOVE YOU" but of course that doesn't mean that's where the spaces actually go
08:51:00 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe "TANEBISECRETLYLOVEYOU" is one word in one of those languages with long words.
08:51:05 <shachaf> Like Finnish or Hexhammish.
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08:58:32 <FreeFull> Time for reboot for new kernel for sparta
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09:28:21 <FreeFull> I think 1/2 should be called cotwo
09:28:46 <FreeFull> Or rather the multiplicative cotwo
09:28:58 <FreeFull> To distinguish from -2, which is the additive cotwo
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10:06:00 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
10:06:26 <Taneb> Did you know that Hexham is halfway between York and Edinburgh?
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12:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/aug/14/john-cleese-attack-british-press
12:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover> it makes it sound like john cleese's troops are battering down the gates of the daily mail
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13:12:51 <boily> my fingers tend to accumulate random ink stains from unknown sources. I fear I'm a sleep-writer...
13:15:29 <zzo38> I calculated the probability of rolling d4,d6,d8,d10,d12,d20 and all coming up the same number (which will have to be 1 to 4). At least, I think I did; maybe I made a mistake.
13:18:06 <zzo38> boily: What do you sleep-write?
13:18:56 <boily> zzo38: no idea. haven't found my Nebulous Nocturnal Notepad yet. probably some weird stuff à la Ulysses.
13:19:15 <boily> do you know of a cheap IR camera that I could rig to my box?
13:20:22 <zzo38> No, I don't know about that.
13:20:54 <boily> something USB, or better wireless. then I could film mys... oh... very, very bad idea.
13:21:17 <zzo38> Well, Wii remotes have a IR camera although they can only track positions and not transmit a picture.
13:21:31 <boily> I'm sure I'm going to end up dead after a few weeks, like in Paranormal Activity.
13:21:56 <zzo38> boily: Then you must try to write a report of it. Unfortunely it is difficult if you are dead.
13:22:12 <boily> “better random moonlit modern musings than being stalked by an invisible demon”, says my mom.
13:22:28 <boily> or, I wonder if I could xkcdise it and sleep with a keyboard.
13:22:48 <zzo38> You could try. I don't know how well it would work.
13:24:38 <boily> I have a bluetooth keyboard. I'll keep you informed.
13:24:50 <zzo38> OK. Does it have enough battery power?
13:25:18 <zzo38> Perhaps disable the functions keys and so on for that kind of experiment.
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13:27:29 <boily> it was hong kongly bought, and of good battery quality.
13:28:06 <zzo38> OK, if the battery is good, then that will work.
13:28:54 <zzo38> If you ever type anything about Uselessness RPG 1, tell me we can add it into that wiki! (regardless whether you sleep or wake up while typing it)
13:32:43 <boily> I seem to have misplaced the link to your RPG. care to provide it to me again?
13:35:11 <zzo38> Well, here it is: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
13:38:18 <zzo38> Yuggo is a currency from CthulhuMUD. Zorkmid is a currency from Zork, and also used in some chess variants. Yen is Japanese currency.
13:38:46 <zzo38> (Have you seen such chess variants?)
13:39:23 <boily> I knew about nethack and zorkmids, but chess variants?
13:39:40 <boily> yen is yen is yen. it goes with calpis and pocari sweat and ramune.
13:40:32 <zzo38> Yes, even in some chess variants, mention zorkmids. That isn't important for the purpose of this game, though; I just used three currencies found elsewhere, and since exchange rates vary they don't even need to be matching anything else.
13:43:09 <boily> the log in as a google account is a little bit buggy, but seems to work. there's a PHP error when you click on the google link, then it says “You are logged in as https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=[RANDOM STUFF]”.
13:43:54 <zzo38> boily: Tell Gregor; that isn't my problem.
13:44:12 <zzo38> It is either Gregor or Google who has done something wrong; probably Google.
13:44:19 <boily> Gregor: what I zzo38ly said ↑
13:47:29 <zzo38> (Specifically, yuggo was the currency used in most shops and vending machines in Pluto I have seen in that game; the exceptions are the bank and Dr.Tkikt which you must both pay for services in copper coins instead; the bank will exchange them automatically though so it doesn't matter. Most of things I have seen about zorkmid are about chess variants, in fact!!)
13:48:07 <zzo38> (Many games might have the different currency being copper, silver, gold; I want to make the game different, so instead I have yen, yuggo, zorkmid. Maybe "yen" might be changed just because it starts with "y".)
13:48:38 <zzo38> (It is true; if I change it, that is the only reason.)
13:48:46 <boily> about that y point, I added an annotation.
13:49:08 <boily> (my wiki editing skills are poor, so the format may not be standard compliant, fsvo standard)
13:49:49 <boily> fungot: do you have any y points?
13:49:50 <fungot> boily: will you and hurried here. gogah... make... .....don't ever make marlene...
13:52:38 <zzo38> boily: Good point; I won't use this in Z-machine though (another problem is the way Unicode deals with font width)
13:58:58 <boily> 'tis sad. gargoyle seems to have stopped development.
13:59:19 <zzo38> boily: What is that?
13:59:38 <boily> http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/
14:00:21 <boily> I remember losing a few hours of my life trying to find a lost pig.
14:00:34 <zzo38> O, I have seen that
14:00:55 <zzo38> There are many Z-machine interpreters, but most of them seem very defective.
14:02:12 <zzo38> I have written two Z-machine programs, and I have tested many interpreters; only Aimfiz and Infocom's interpreter run them correctly.
14:03:51 <zzo38> A version of Gargoyle based on Aimfiz instead of Frotz might work.
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14:16:06 <boily> meanwhile, I am beginning to grasp the details of OpenERP. I am scared.
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15:16:22 <fizzie> boily: AIUI, a lot of the regular cheapo webcams register a reasonable amount of IR, so you could pick one of those and then you'd just need some IR illumination.
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15:28:56 <FreeFull> They make infrared look pink though
15:35:37 <fizzie> I think that's okay if you just want to see where you keep your hidden night-journal.
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16:51:01 <fizzie> Mhm. How come dark grey is entirely black in a screen session in PuTTY?
16:51:40 <fizzie> Oh, there's a "indicate bolded text by..." setting.
16:52:03 <fizzie> Managed to somehow miss that every time.
16:54:28 <fizzie> Hmp. In VirtualBox the raw disk access stuff worked not at all; in VMware Player, I get a few dozen "The operation on file "\\.\PhysicalDrive3" failed." messages at boot time and when anything sufficiently special happens, but if I just keep saying "continue" everything works.
16:56:35 <fizzie> (Except for a lot of errors in dmesg.)
16:56:51 <fizzie> "failed command: WRITE DMA".
16:57:08 <fizzie> Maybe if I configured it to use something different.
17:10:12 <fizzie> I told VMware to use it in the "individual partitions" mode, and it just broke down.
17:10:38 <fizzie> Now it just shows the main menu dialog, and trying to close it gives a "The virtual machine is busy." error.
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17:17:58 <fizzie> Maybe it has issues with partitions larger than 2T, because the individual-partitions select-o-tron just says "2 TB" as the capacity.
17:29:24 <boily> fizzie: back from lunch. I'll IRise myself in a non horror movie manner.
17:29:54 <Roujo> My lunch is sausages
17:30:01 <Roujo> Cheese and brocoli sausages
17:30:11 <Roujo> "You learn something every day"
17:30:24 <olsner> fungot: do you eat cheese and broccoli?
17:30:24 <fungot> olsner: better send that soldier something.
17:31:06 <boily> my lunch was a large all-dressed phở.
17:31:22 <boily> Roujo: "you're talking like fizzie."
17:31:58 <fizzie> The weirdest. The front headphone jack is noisy in Windows only. And not all the time, just occasionally.
17:32:09 <fizzie> I guess it could be some interference from the GPU or something.
17:34:15 <Roujo> Interference, defense, number 99, first down
17:36:25 <boily> on one hand, I am reading an article about fermented shrimp paste, otoh Roujo is doing eldritch incantations, and on the not quite fourth hand I'm utterly puzzled.
17:36:48 <Roujo> The Otter puzzle is pretty damn ahrd
17:36:57 <Roujo> That's like hard-mode hard
17:37:09 <Roujo> Also, I can't spell
17:37:28 <boily> Roujo: you're francophone like me. of course you can't spell. :p
17:38:10 <Roujo> Just, not actual spells
17:44:23 <boily> fungot: your opinion on words?
17:44:23 <fungot> boily: cloud... don't... the planet? ho ho hoooo. good luck. please let me. my journey ends here. the two of you.
17:44:45 <boily> «ho ho hoooo. good luck.» properly ominous, imho.
17:45:04 <fizzie> fungot: What's this about your journey ending?
17:45:04 <fungot> fizzie: but what are you? you keep wandering around...
17:45:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: theme: not found
17:45:14 <fizzie> Roujo: Wrong prefix *and* command. :p
17:45:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:45:39 <fizzie> It's indicated by that *.
17:46:03 * boily looks at Roujo and offers him a fungot manual, 4th edition
17:46:04 <fungot> boily: aerith......? i just can't seem to lose weight. hmm, aerith. long time.
17:46:17 <Roujo> We're on 4th already?
17:46:59 <boily> manuals always have a ludicrous edition number, in the Grand Conspiracy of Taking Students' Money for Stupid Reasons.
17:47:11 <boily> s/in/according to/
17:48:13 <fizzie> fungot: What's new in the 4th edition?
17:48:14 <fungot> fizzie: unfortunately, this trip was expensive. and a man. he was a vibrant woman. hadn't changed at all. but, if you're thinkin' you yet!
17:49:19 <boily> “...expensive” “hadn't changed at all”
17:49:48 <Roujo> I pretty much only got "he was a vibrant woman"
17:51:25 <olsner> fungot: but did you have *fun* on your trip?
17:51:26 <fungot> olsner: putting you on my back till the end of this gym!
17:53:05 <Roujo> fungot: saying sweet lines since whenever he started doing it
17:53:05 <fungot> Roujo: looks like you've seen this already......? so why's it impossible for us to live here i'd change things around ' n' me sober.
17:53:15 <fungot> Roujo: is that man over there!
17:53:27 <Roujo> fungot: What about him?
17:53:27 <fungot> Roujo: then, is now...... must've been a while back, don't make me laugh....
17:53:41 <Roujo> fungot: I'd rather not. You remember what happened last time, right?
17:53:42 <fungot> Roujo: it'll be all right, with my life.
17:54:03 <Roujo> fungot: That's something nice to have, that certainty. I wish I could say the same.
17:54:39 <Roujo> fungo: Are you still there?
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17:55:14 <boily> fungot: are you snubbing Roujo?
17:55:15 <fungot> boily: hey! hey, that's fine.
17:55:36 <HackEgo> denial: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:55:41 <boily> Roujo: not the first time a meatbag receives abuse from a bot :p
17:56:00 <Roujo> Probably not the last, either
17:56:04 <Roujo> I wish I was a chatbot
17:56:04 <HackEgo> 952) * fungot has joined #esoteric <boily> woohoo! the one and only fungot is back! <fungot> boily: damn your mother! <boily> ok. never saw that one coming.
17:56:16 <Roujo> Imagine the possibilities
17:56:21 <Roujo> I could beat the Turing test
17:56:23 <Roujo> Well, I think I could
17:56:28 <Roujo> I never really tried
17:56:37 <boily> you could auto-meta-turing yourself.
17:56:48 <boily> (meanwhile, that thing exists: https://github.com/rvantonder/pentaquine)
18:00:17 <boily> random question of the day: anybody here who has a urbanspoon account?
18:01:29 <Roujo> I stay away from city utensils, twvm
18:01:37 <Roujo> I stay away from 'em
18:03:43 <boily> I'm on a quest to visit all the vietnamese restaurants on the island, and I was wondering what defines a good phở around the world.
18:04:07 -!- sacje has joined.
18:06:22 <boily> so far, 24% of my logged restaurants offer vietnamese cuisine, and I've been to 83 in Montréal, 10 in Québec and 4 in Ottawa.
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18:27:54 <Taneb> I'm doing unusually well in this run of Brogue
18:28:01 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:29:10 <boily> Taneb: roguespeed to you!
18:29:29 <Taneb> I've got an ally naga, ogre, and imp
18:29:49 <Taneb> Okay, I've lost the imp
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18:31:18 <Taneb> And I'm on floor 20
18:31:27 <boily> how many floors in brogue?
18:31:54 <mnoqy> the amulet is on floor 26
18:32:03 <mnoqy> but i think it goes down to 100 if you really want to
18:32:22 <mnoqy> it definitely goes deeper than 26
18:32:35 <Taneb> I thought it only went to 52?
18:32:35 <mnoqy> and you can collect "lumenstones" for bonus score
18:32:40 <mnoqy> oh maybe it goes to 52
18:32:44 <mnoqy> I'm bad with remembering numbers
18:33:56 <mnoqy> ...apparently it goes to 40??
18:34:07 <mnoqy> #define AMULET_LEVEL 26 // how deep before the amulet appears
18:34:10 <mnoqy> #define DEEPEST_LEVEL 40 // how deep the universe goes
18:34:46 <kmc> boily: are you a phở fiend
18:36:21 <Taneb> Killed by a cloud of caustic gas on level 21
18:36:41 <mnoqy> elliott: i just quoted the source
18:36:51 <boily> kmc: I am the vietnamese restaurant reference among my colleagues, friends and family. I peruse blogs and my instincts to seek the perfect montrealese phở.
18:37:19 <kmc> is montréal known for its phở?
18:37:28 <mnoqy> from the changelog: The deepest dungeon depth is now 40 instead of 100, and it contains a reward for players skillful and insane enough to reach it.
18:37:52 * kmc contemplates setting up his Compose key to type tiếng Việt diacritics
18:38:53 <boily> kmc: probably. there are many, many places all over the city that serve it.
18:39:36 <boily> my compose key was remapped to 半角／全角, and I just tweaked xmodmap to get everything defined by X on my dead keys.
18:42:01 <fizzie> TIL: a fully stocked bookshelf is kind of heavy.
18:43:18 <olsner> did it fall on you? I hear that can kill people
18:45:43 <olsner> (I hope it didn't kill you!)
18:46:25 <boily> oh right. my compose is ひらがな／カタカナ.
18:46:54 <boily> kmc: http://pastebin.ca/2432345
18:47:14 <kmc> do you type a lot of japanese boily?
18:47:20 <kmc> I need to figure out how to anchor my bookshelves to the wall
18:47:23 <kmc> earthquake zone, y'know
18:47:36 <boily> kmc: yes. I have UIM bound to Ctrl-Space.
18:47:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: Existentially unforgiveable under adaptive chosen-message attacks | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
18:48:25 <boily> I firmly believe the /topic makes sense in some parallel universe.
18:49:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:03:24 <olsner> boily: now that's just absurd
19:03:46 <olsner> maybe it makes sense in the orthogonal universe(s)
19:04:37 <boily> olsner: my belief are reasonable, up to iso-absurdity.
19:06:45 <boily> only in computer programming you can exclaim “It works! I get the correct error!” and be proud of your work.
19:06:56 <Bike> what about approximation theory
19:08:05 <boily> ~duck approximation theory
19:08:05 <metasepia> In mathematics, approximation theory is concerned with how functions can best be approximated with simpler functions, and with quantitatively characterizing the errors introduced thereby.
19:08:45 <boily> well, I guess I was close enough, and within an acceptable error margin.
19:09:07 <boily> Bike: I deny the existence of statistics, based on personal experience.
19:09:11 <olsner> for e.g. compilers, getting the right error is a really important part of what it does
19:10:04 <boily> there's this complete memory blank in my head when I try to recall my statistics classes. I think it was caused by a nerve gas deployed by the dean to keep us students in track and coöperative.
19:11:03 <olsner> hint: a more efficient way to not remember statistics is to not learn it in the first place
19:12:34 <kmc> rustc has 753 "this should fail to compile with error X" test cases
19:13:10 <kmc> patches welcome
19:13:32 <olsner> yeah, I read the rust tutorial yesterday, maybe I should start patching the compiler now
19:14:04 <kmc> that's about how it goes yeah
19:18:29 <fizzie> olsner: No, I just needed to move it move it, in order to add a cable to the thing-where-cables-go-in.
19:18:57 <fizzie> It just plain didn't "budge", though, before first emptying half of the books.
19:19:45 <boily> `? thing-where-cables-go-in
19:19:46 <HackEgo> thing-where-cables-go-in? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:20:35 <olsner> boily: those things are commonplace in pre-wireless ("troglodyte") environments
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19:21:44 <boily> olsner: my apartment is double-trogloditty, then. I have two powerbars, each with a mess of cables, and various electronic apparatuses, each with their own messes.
19:22:33 <boily> well, two and a half. there's an extension cord in my kitchen because I lack well-placed outlets, and have none in my bathroom.
19:22:56 * boily recalls the weeks I had to shave without a mirror... it was a life experience
19:24:53 <fizzie> Personally I think I'd rather go with the cable than with some sort of wifi audio streaming apparatus, those things are always so stupef.
19:25:38 <boily> all my audio is cabled, with a shiny amp and two mysterious wooden boxes inherited from my dad.
19:27:18 <fizzie> Heh, that's very similar. I have a karman/hard-on (or w/e) amp and two "Jamo Power 130S"es that date probably to the 1970s, inherited from my father.
19:28:06 <olsner> hmm... if the wifi router is connected by cable, does that make the so-called "wireless" non-wireless?
19:28:33 <fizzie> http://images3.okr.ro/auctions.v3/700_700/2011/11/22/1/4/66480192997240637290843-5658522-700_700.jpg something very much like these.
19:28:43 <fizzie> (I don't know the difference between the 130T and the 130S.)
19:28:59 <fizzie> (Well, I mean, in more detail than "the last letter".)
19:29:00 <boily> fizzie: cambridge audio wired to JCLes from the '70s.
19:29:18 <olsner> what are those hanging white flanges in the upper left for?
19:29:30 <fizzie> olsner: Ask an audio engineer, I think.
19:30:01 <fizzie> boily: The fabric-y cover in ours is much more cat-demolished than what's in the picture, however.
19:31:10 <boily> ah, cats and music... the eternal war and grievances.
19:32:18 <boily> fizzie: I'm on a http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/media/351a-front-black-1353684537.jpg or very similar, http://www.gallagher.com/photos/stereo/jbl_3.jpg still very similar.
19:33:24 <fizzie> boily: Well, for completeness... http://www.avx.hu/forum/uploads/monthly_12_2011/post-2852-080826500%201324539191.jpg a bit less shiny.
19:33:52 <fizzie> (I don't use any of the video or surroundy features of it.)
19:34:35 <Taneb> You know what I find weird?
19:35:13 <Taneb> Something about Daft Punk sounding French even with the voice modulation and whatnot
19:35:54 <olsner> I suspect that's something you imagine based on knowing that they are french
19:35:59 <boily> fizzie: I find karman/hardons' form factor a little too big, imo.
19:36:19 <nooodl> french accents are pretty noticable
19:36:28 <boily> nooodl: you don't say.
19:36:46 <Bike> doesn't the new album have a monologue by a french guitarist. or maybe he's spanish. help i don't know anything
19:37:24 <nooodl> (listens to an interview) yeah they sound very french here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaPil2JlXhU hth
19:37:50 <elliott> Bike: do you mean Giorgio Moroder? he's a disco guy. maybe he plays guitar too??
19:38:08 <elliott> (I haven't heard the album)
19:38:11 <Bike> i thought the monologue was about guitarism
19:38:29 <olsner> the moroder is not one of the daft punk guys though?
19:38:30 <elliott> (one of the three people in the universe who thought Human After All was pretty good though)
19:43:17 <boily> across universes, the median number of people who appreciate Human After All to its full extent is 4⅝.
19:44:35 <Taneb> Well, even if it just me, it's still a bit weird
19:47:01 <olsner> I find that singing masks most of people's accents, and even swedish artists can sound english when singing
19:52:22 <boily> `learn phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
19:57:49 <tswett> Hmm. So earlier, I may have said that in a linear type system, every monad is (essentially) equivalent to a state monad.
19:57:59 <olsner> boily: is pho made from ~duck?
19:58:42 <tswett> Turns out, though, that a linear type system doesn't appear to support the list monad, at least not by the obvious meaning of the word "monad".
19:58:47 <boily> olsner: the regular version is phở bò (beef), but you can also get gà (chicken).
19:59:07 <tswett> Like, you can't have [Int] -> (Int -> [Char]) -> [Char], because you could have any number of Ints, and yet the second argument must be called exactly once.
20:00:08 <boily> olsner: there is also a duck soup called bún măng vịt.
20:03:20 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:04:01 <ion> The Kids' Guide to the Internet http://youtu.be/A81IwlDeV6c
20:04:54 -!- carado has joined.
20:05:23 <boily> ion: oh the fungotity...
20:05:24 <fungot> boily: meteor is coming, and then that's okay. we'll see if you don't even have any money.
20:05:45 <boily> Roujo: est-ce que tu connais le Douteux? http://douteux.org/
20:05:46 <tswett> How threatening. It's like...
20:06:24 <tswett> You owe us a bunch of money. There's a meteor coming and it's going to kill you, but we don't care. In fact, after it kills you we're going to go over to your house and see what money's in it.
20:09:37 <fizzie> boily: It is kind of bulky, that's for sure. And it's mostly empty space.
20:14:36 -!- ^v has joined.
20:16:28 <^v> good obscure language to compile into lua?
20:16:31 <HackEgo> ^v: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:16:32 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:17:47 <boily> ^v: there is http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters. no lua in it, but it's an interesting starting point.
20:19:52 <^v> i remember what i was trying to do a couple years ago
20:20:02 <^v> i was making a BF inturpreter in logisim
20:20:19 <tswett> "checking whether strstr works in linear time... no"
20:20:25 <tswett> Wow, autoconf can determine asymptotic complexity.
20:21:14 <Fiora> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=5514 huh, wow
20:24:08 <kmc> tswett: I assume it uses KLEE
20:24:26 <^v> freenode actually crashed my http server
20:25:24 <tswett> I'd think it would just try a bunch of them and see how linear the result is.
20:25:40 <tswett> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLEE hth
20:26:09 <metasepia> Swiss artist who combined his expert use of line and color and his theories of abstract art to produce works of whimsy and innocence.
20:26:23 <tswett> Also: 5 + 1 = 2 * 3 and 5 * 1 = 2 + 3.
20:27:51 <shachaf> tswett: Make a version of strstr that detects whether it's being given worst-case input.
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20:29:33 <tswett> The naive linear algorithm, which doesn't work, is to step through the haystack, and keep a counter of the number of characters of the needle that have matched. If you encounter a mismatch, reset it to zero.
20:31:11 <tswett> The naive way of fixing that, which makes the algorithm quadratic, is to keep multiple counters, one for each possible starting point of the match.
20:31:35 <^v> i sould make a esoteric language, where you will have to brute force CRC in order to compile it
20:32:00 <tswett> I think the worst case for that algorithm may be finding e.g. "aaaa" in "aaaaaaaa".
20:33:06 <boily> ^v: à la Malbolge :D
20:33:21 <boily> tswett: or, as a colombian would say, AAAAAAAAAAA.
20:33:22 <tswett> Malbolge is pretty easy to... well, interpret, isn't it?
20:33:39 <^v> yea like malboge
20:35:07 <boily> we should poisson the hispanophones that randomly join this channel in order to predict when will the next one appear.
20:36:38 <Taneb> Reading the t's and c's for student loads...
20:41:05 <tswett> I want to try to think of another Turing tarpit...
20:41:39 <kmc> what's a loads
20:41:56 <Taneb> It's how much luggage I'll be able to carry as a student
20:42:03 <tswett> How about this. Memory consists of a bunch of 32-bit words. The instruction pointer points to a pair of words.
20:43:18 <^v> sould i use FCS32 instead of CRC32?
20:43:22 <Taneb> kmc, yes, I did mean loans
20:43:30 <^v> CRC is too easy to crack
20:44:23 <olsner> tswett: so far this is sounding pretty normal
20:44:48 <boily> Taneb: going to university?
20:44:53 <Taneb> Why is life this scary
20:44:57 <tswett> Each execution step consists of multiplying the two words together, setting the second word to the result, and moving right if the result was greater than 991197253, and left otherwise.
20:45:08 <boily> tswett: this sounds like a segment/address pair on an x86 architecture...
20:45:17 <boily> or, as you said, probably not.
20:45:21 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
20:47:11 <boily> Taneb: disproportionate retaliation from former students who had to endure a little bit less scariness than what you're going to suffer, culminating in an intergenerational serial escalation of standardised, civilised terror.
20:48:20 <Taneb> It's all "If you're Welsh and applying before September 2012... If you're Welsh and applying after September 2012... If you are studying a part-time course..." aaah
20:50:28 <Taneb> "You will need to give employers either a P45 form or a P46 form."
20:50:32 <olsner> what happens if you're welsh and apply during september 2012?
20:50:54 <boily> raise WelshPointerException();
20:50:59 <olsner> ("Become welsh and find out!")
20:52:08 <Taneb> The UK is a weird country
20:52:26 <^v> UK isnt a country .-.
20:52:36 <Bike> your mom isn't a country
20:53:37 <boily> if google translate is right, it may be a EithriadPwyntyddNull(). I'll have that in my code next time I have to do java.
20:55:41 <olsner> is the ll in null pronounced the welsh way there?
20:56:11 * boily tries it out... «nuthllhthhhh»
20:58:53 <olsner> think nutlh in Klingon
20:59:33 * boily frowns and shouts «nuTLH!!!»
21:02:26 <olsner> perhaps you could use nullity = dirymedd instead: EithriadPwyntyddDirymedd()
21:04:02 <boily> ooooh, much better!
21:05:54 <olsner> the word "pwyntydd" feels very welsh, filled with welshness
21:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, ooh, are you wrangling with university interfaces
21:08:57 <Taneb> I'm wrangling with some part of the government, I belive
21:09:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (currently i'm trying to apply for student funding for the next year only to be informed that the service is broken)
21:09:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the UK is a sovereign state but not a country I think?
21:09:48 <elliott> Scotland, England and Wales are the countries
21:10:12 <boily> Taneb: good luck. I had to fill out a government form this summer where I was repeatedly asked if I'm a fisherman.
21:10:31 <shachaf> elliott: wikipedia calls it a country a little bit
21:10:47 <Taneb> The countriness of the United Kingdom is part of its weirdness
21:10:51 <boily> Taneb: I'm an IT professional.
21:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> previously when i was filling out the form it was demanding my parents' income despite the fact that i'd already clearly exempted myself from the means-tested stuff
21:11:01 <Taneb> boily, are you a phisherman?
21:11:35 <boily> Taneb: never phished nobody. I prefer more subtly direct ways of extracting valuable information from people, like with the The Question.
21:11:56 <Taneb> Did you know that Hexham is precisely half-way between Edinburgh and York
21:12:00 <Taneb> I think I mentioned that earlier
21:12:01 <shachaf> boily: What's subtle about that?
21:12:10 <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
21:12:22 <^v> 300 and USA
21:12:29 <boily> shachaf: subtly direct, not subtle.
21:12:40 <shachaf> Yes. What's subtle about the directness?
21:12:56 <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
21:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd have to be made out of metal or something for that
21:13:41 <boily> shachaf: see, I was subtle there. it's missing some IRL experience as it is transmitted through a textual medium, but trust me, it is subtle.
21:13:46 <elliott> `addquote <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
21:13:49 <HackEgo> 1091) <boily> btw, ^v, what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh? <^v> 300 and USA <boily> nice to see that ^v is keeping with the spirit of the channel by providing completely useless answers to the question.
21:14:01 <olsner> ooh, "Is there a Little/Lesser Britain?" ... as far as I can recall, it has never occurred to me that there would be another britain
21:14:04 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: I'm now imagining someone named "Doc Osmium"
21:14:27 <elliott> Doc Osmium is a good suppervillain name
21:14:31 <Taneb> olsner, there was the Roman province of Britannia Minor, corresponding roughly to modern England
21:14:32 <elliott> (decided not to correct that typo)
21:14:57 <boily> elliott: oh, it was perfectly voluntary. I dislike bolded punctation marks.
21:15:18 <olsner> Taneb: hmm, that page pointed to the piece of france that's called (roughly) "Britain"
21:15:20 <Taneb> Oh wait, it's Brittany in France
21:16:00 <boily> fizzie: you fıend.
21:16:58 <Taneb> It stares into your soul
21:17:33 <shachaf> looking forward to this evening??
21:18:11 <mnoqy> nothing on tuesday :( or wednesday :(
21:18:42 <olsner> shachaf: what's with this evening?
21:19:09 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh no did he miss the tuesday update?
21:25:11 <boily> people from #esoteric meeting IRL??? the apocalypse has come!
21:25:39 <olsner> boily: the apocalypse has been here all along
21:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> a) that's been happening since forever in finland, but also b) the apocalypse is only with elliott and Taneb
21:26:21 <boily> oh. wasn't there a Canadian corollary or something about that?
21:26:23 <Taneb> I almost met ais523 once
21:29:03 <Taneb> Hey, are there any esolangers in or around York?
21:29:24 <olsner> Taneb: are you moving out of hexham?
21:29:31 <Taneb> olsner, in October
21:29:37 <Taneb> shachaf, slightly not
21:30:29 <Taneb> It's more like Birmingham than New York
21:30:33 <shachaf> How slight is this slightly?
21:30:43 <olsner> Taneb: nice, good luck with the unhexhamming
21:30:54 <nooodl> shachaf: hi good nooodl-question-answering here
21:31:26 <Taneb> shachaf, slightly may have been used here to mean entirely
21:31:29 <nooodl> <shachaf> (>>>), maybe?
21:31:36 <shachaf> that was my touchpad talking
21:38:03 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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21:55:43 <boily> oh, they reclinginged dcss!
22:00:47 <kmc> ^v: one of the levels of http://io.smashthestack.org/ involves writing two Brainfuck programs with the same MD5 hash that do two specific, different things
22:00:49 -!- carado_ has joined.
22:01:28 <HackEgo> ScOoFy: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
22:03:10 <^v> kmc, interesting
22:05:07 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:06:56 <kmc> it's... easier than it sounds, once you find the magic bit of janky research code that generates MD5 collision pairs
22:07:15 <metasepia> Software description: continuous integration server built on top of Jenkins and Hubot (Ruby).
22:07:24 <Fiora> when the generating md5 collisions become that easy?
22:07:25 <kmc> I think I used http://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/
22:07:28 <boily> bletch. the horror.
22:07:34 <Fiora> I'm now thinking of um... valerie's article on the hash function lifetime thing
22:07:56 <kmc> sounds like when = 2007?
22:08:15 <Fiora> hmmm... so like, preimage finding is still generally hard and hasn't happened for most hashes, right?
22:08:26 <kmc> anyway you can find maybe a dozen collision pairs per hour on a pretty modest machine
22:08:30 <Fiora> but like, how hard is finding a partial preimage? like "I want a hash that's 00000000000000***********"
22:08:37 <Fiora> is that potentially easier than like, an actual preimage?
22:08:52 <kmc> chosen-prefix collisions are feasible too, now, with big but not absurdly big compute farms
22:08:56 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_attack#Chosen-prefix_collision_attack
22:09:11 <Fiora> no, I meant like, the *hash result* has a chosen prefix
22:09:14 <kmc> yeah I know
22:09:17 <kmc> I was just following what I said
22:09:34 <Fiora> "A real-world collision attack was published in December 2008 when a group of security researchers published a forged X.509 signing certificate" wow
22:09:55 <shachaf> It's not easy enough for that Typeable bug. :-(
22:09:56 <kmc> also the Flame malware used a chosen prefix collision, following a technique that is not published in the open literature
22:10:10 <kmc> which basically demonstrates that it was made by someone who employs world class cryptanalysts
22:10:22 <kmc> it's kind of like poisoning someone with a rare isotope of polonium...
22:10:39 <boily> ~duck cryptanalyst
22:10:39 <metasepia> Cryptanalysis (from the Greek krypts, "hidden", and analein, "to loosen" or "to untie") is the art and science of analyzing information systems in order to study the hidden aspects of the systems.
22:10:45 <boily> ~duck cryptoanalyst
22:10:45 <metasepia> Cryptanalysis (from the Greek krypts, "hidden", and analein, "to loosen" or "to untie") is the art and science of analyzing information systems in order to study the hidden aspects of the systems.
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22:11:20 <kmc> these are some pretty badass job titles really... "secret untier", "secret writer", "secret studier"
22:11:35 <kmc> anyway I don't know of any practical significant preimage attacks on MD5
22:11:47 <kmc> there are theoretical faster-than-brute-force attacks
22:12:09 <Fiora> I guess I was thinking, like, valerie wrote the thing about how hash functions have a finite lifetime and you have to be prepared to upgrade
22:12:17 <kmc> those tend to exist for most hash functions, even ones considered OK
22:12:21 <kmc> maybe only with reduced rounds though
22:12:23 <Fiora> and was kind of thinking what would happen if SHA-256 got a break and suddenly bitcoin collapsed
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22:13:04 <shachaf> there are surely more likely scenarios for that than people breaking sha-256
22:13:06 <kmc> is that more or less likely than an efficient algorithm for discrete logarithm problem on elliptic curves?
22:13:10 <kmc> probably more likely
22:13:15 <kmc> it would have different consequences too though
22:14:11 <Fiora> like, breaking ECDSA?
22:14:29 <Fiora> geez if you could brea that you could like, forge signatures, right?
22:14:39 <kmc> yep you could steal anyone's bitcoins
22:14:59 <Fiora> well, I mean, in general, right?
22:15:00 <kmc> let's build a quantum computer and use it to steal all the bitcoins
22:15:03 <Fiora> like, other kinds of signatures
22:15:09 <kmc> it would be a huge deal
22:15:29 <kmc> i wonder if there are any altcoins using post-quantum signatures yet
22:16:56 <shachaf> maybe someone already broke it but they're being discreet about it
22:18:10 <kmc> is that a joke about discreet logarithms
22:18:47 <Fiora> how do you get lumber down the river without anyone noticing
22:18:50 <Fiora> send it as discreet logs
22:19:32 <kmc> I think there was an episode of NUMB3RS where the guy breaks All The Crypto and then the mafia is after him or something
22:19:52 <shachaf> Fiora: you could build log tables with it
22:19:59 <kmc> yeah here we go "A young girl is kidnapped, but her parents refuse to cooperate with Don's investigation. The girl's father is a mathematician, and the kidnapping may be related to his work on the Riemann hypothesis."
22:20:13 <kmc> episode title "Prime Suspect" (i'm not making this up)
22:20:30 <Fiora> that's that's terrible
22:20:44 <kmc> the whole show is like that
22:20:56 <kmc> it's terrible but I enjoy watching it because it was filmed partially at my school
22:21:07 <kmc> so I'm like "hey I know that building, it's actually much easier to break into than that"
22:21:11 <Fiora> it must really cater to the lowest common denominator
22:21:47 <fizzie> Fiora: That's that's terrible.
22:23:03 <fizzie> They can probably still see you through the spokes.
22:24:23 <shachaf> http://glyph.twistedmatrix.com/2009/01/television-writer-guide-to-cryptography.html
22:28:37 <^v> my solution: buy 500 server racks and brute force it ;_;
22:34:56 <HackEgo> 680) <oklopol> speaking of math, i watched an episode of numb3rs today <oklopol> the first episode was more like 57471571c5
22:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ for the uninitiated)
22:36:09 <oerjan> <boily> across universes, the median number of people who appreciate Human After All to its full extent is 4⅝. <-- i sense that medians may work weirdly across universes
22:36:41 <Fiora> but but they need to make a GUI interface in visual basic!! to track the killer!
22:36:52 <Fiora> I mean, to track the killer's IP address!
22:37:24 <elliott> oblig. http://guivbip.codeplex.com/
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22:38:46 <kmc> i thought it was NCIS
22:38:51 <kmc> but they're all basically the same
22:39:34 <kmc> I was watching NCIS and they had to shut down the computer in time to disable the bomb or whatever but the guy couldn't figure out the interface so at the last second he just shot it a bunch of times with his gun
22:39:45 <kmc> i've wanted to do that many times
22:39:55 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: that's CSI:NY but yes
22:40:46 <kmc> i think so
22:40:48 <kmc> inter alia
22:41:32 <kmc> jesus the original CSI is still running... almost 300 episodes
22:41:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "connecting to port_6667 of #channel irc". I mean, I've seen it, but still.
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22:50:07 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> kmc, yes, I did mean loans <-- and here i was all ready to assume british rail had special luggage rules for students.
22:50:35 <kmc> they do have a discount railcard for students
22:50:46 <kmc> well for young people anyway. http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/
22:51:16 <kmc> does norway have good trains
22:51:35 <oerjan> no, "good" is not a word commonly associated with norway's trains.
22:54:00 <kmc> but 'Parts of the Harry Potter film "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" were filmed on the Rauma Railway.' !!!!
22:57:28 <fizzie> Curiously enough, there's also a Rauma in Finland.
22:57:53 <fizzie> (I don't think it's important in any railwaystic way, however.)
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23:25:46 <kmc> no passenger rail traffic since 1988 :/
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23:44:10 <oerjan> kmc: oh well right, the _view_ is pretty. the punctuality, not so much.
23:44:41 <Bike> my train experience, summarized
23:47:44 <boily> back from a late meeting with ænigmas.
23:47:49 <boily> time to eat. I am famished.
23:47:57 <boily> oerjan: universes are weird.
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