< 1379808058 428819 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.47.105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"bikes, of course, are completely natural" < 1379809031 854731 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I watch Farscape, or should I watch Star Trek Voyager's "Threshold" superimposed with The Last Airbender movie? < 1379809055 73889 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.47.105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :farscape < 1379809074 513972 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this even a question you are asking < 1379809092 114657 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I wanted to be silly? < 1379809103 29306 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bored, might watch some Farscape, or might not, not sure < 1379809114 410711 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The second option isn't a real option, as I hope was obvious) < 1379809168 254540 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't < 1379809188 315166 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it was < 1379809243 619737 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quiet you < 1379809301 614973 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you rather be forced to watch "Threshold" or The Last Airbender movie? < 1379809339 864197 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering one is ~40 minutes long and the other is probably at least two hours... < 1379809376 590973 :Bike!~Glossina@69.166.47.105 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1379809544 204387 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: watch threshold then watch some farscape < 1379809562 627869 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't encourage him < 1379809575 731065 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'll watch threshold, they always watch threshold < 1379809582 596791 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :THRESHOOOOLD < 1379809712 156620 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you were different olsner < 1379809718 924159 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now i see you are just a swede < 1379809757 929579 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would I be different? < 1379809788 346722 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they deleted DMM's wikipedia page :( < 1379809793 259972 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you didn't seem as terrible as every other swede < 1379809799 748171 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1379809806 844290 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed you'd been abducted at birth from norway or finland or somewhere < 1379810343 805405 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the IWC page has an AFD... < 1379810449 929202 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is why making the other Wikipedia, you can join them together in case of things deleted from Wikipedia so you can access both kinds < 1379811503 711885 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should resume watching Ghost in the Shell at some point < 1379811802 494798 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you should resume watching farscape < 1379811810 288969 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i swear it's like people commit to not finishing it < 1379811942 804874 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, I prefer shades of grey to black and white. I think I'll go watch Farscape instead < 1379812002 377780 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't remember watching "Taking the Stone", but Amazon thinks I've watched it < 1379812020 892770 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :immaterial; it's shit < 1379812040 41319 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1379812055 134101 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I stopped watching in the first few minutes < 1379812129 342666 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: are you saying to skip it? < 1379812168 972459 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1379812187 480092 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since crackers don't matter is the next episode < 1379812229 372938 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1379812802 394563 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another use of zero length array in C may be type identification in macros. < 1379812851 243830 :nooodl!~nooodl@51.191-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're also useful if you want to keep track of 0 of something < 1379812892 168036 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: Well, if the zero isn't a literal, then perhaps yes. < 1379813001 581169 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main use as described in the GCC manual, is to make a array at the end of a structure, which you do not know the size until it is allocated. < 1379813052 552784 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However there are some other uses too. < 1379813076 309514 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know of any others? < 1379813092 344200 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo it... would probably help if you'd give context before saying things like Another use of zero length array in C may be type identification in macros. < 1379813100 559489 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They also do not have to be at the end; it can be useful at the beginning or whatever too) < 1379813150 370251 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1379813201 358911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't it describe already in those sentence, though? < 1379813291 596770 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... no, you hadn't said what the first use of zero-length arrays is. < 1379813293 477250 :nooodl!~nooodl@51.191-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think Phantom_Hoover means: you said "another use ..." without a first use being mentioned < 1379813323 400249 :nooodl!~nooodl@51.191-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but i guess you meant "beside the main use" which you described afterwards?) < 1379813336 989849 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just mean, another use, in general. < 1379813440 486475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean by type identification in macro may be something like: typedef struct { char x[2]; } Two; typedef struct { char x[3]; } Three; typedef struct { Three type_id[0]; ... I haven't actually tried it though < 1379813518 502398 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: sleep < 1379814145 293918 :OriginalOldMan!62e86073@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.232.96.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379814294 204854 :john_metcalf!~john_metc@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1379814772 658566 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phthat was narmy < 1379814891 296931 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh he left < 1379815628 871681 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Gnyte < 1379816053 647749 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slist < 1379816357 684270 :nooodl!~nooodl@51.191-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1379817659 257265 :OriginalOldMan!62e86073@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.232.96.115 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1379819083 642057 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not equinox quite yet! It is tomorrow. < 1379820675 227722 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1379820768 469207 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre NICK :nisstyre < 1379825800 284572 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1379825904 698412 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379826095 707443 :audioPhil!~quassel@lak-29-20.wohnheime.ruhr-uni-bochum.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1379826095 891445 :audioPhil!~quassel@lak-29-20.wohnheime.ruhr-uni-bochum.de QUIT :Changing host < 1379826095 891583 :audioPhil!~quassel@unaffiliated/audiophil1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379826203 732180 :audioPhil_!~quassel@lak-29-208.wohnheime.ruhr-uni-bochum.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1379828562 758498 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a hardware programming language I think it make more sense for numbers without a prefix to be in binary. What is your opinion? < 1379828594 79791 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly that verilog literals are super awkward and i can imagine almost any change as an improvement < 1379828601 502957 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found out vhdl has a nice "others" thing < 1379828669 396785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Verilog, you create std_logic_vectors using double quotes < 1379828674 300047 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0111010" or whatever < 1379828679 177452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, you can use "others" to abbreviate < 1379828697 232062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0 => '0', 1 => '0', others => '1') < 1379828928 241170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* in VHDL, < 1379828940 952073 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it took me a while to get but it seems nice < 1379828971 973404 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my instructor/supplier doesn't know verilog but is moving his course to it for some reason, so all the old interesting files are still vhdl) < 1379829147 58853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL syntax is both verbose and bizarre < 1379829149 207628 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know of the "others" < 1379829158 515729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it normally does contain some way to do what you want < 1379829173 394643 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does (0 => '0', 1 => '0', others => '1') do, exactly? < 1379829175 606373 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's super verbose, yeah < 1379829181 635966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should look up the syntax for a multidimensional array sometime, it's ridiculous < 1379829198 804213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it means a constant where bits 0 and 1 are 0, and the other bits are 1 < 1379829231 808896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the constant itself is polymorphic to different bitwidths and data types (it'll work for anything that has a 0 and a 1) < 1379829232 63337 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like an associative array. < 1379829241 268107 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK I understand. < 1379829247 417556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a vector of bits, or of std_logics < 1379829253 43272 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :polymorphic constant huh... i've been wondering about that in verilog < 1379829253 188446 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still it is different than how I would design, a lot. < 1379829397 48727 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own design is different, you can see how it compares and what features you like and hate and neutral. (I called it "HWPL") I put what I think is better for a hardware programming language; these things are different than what would go in a software programming language. One is that - is unary fanout operator taking a single bit and making a full vector of that bit, so something like {10,-1} or {-1,01} or {10X,-Z,111Z1} or whatever can make a pol < 1379829419 710156 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly so far I think I'd like more macrology stuff. < 1379829424 72547 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instantiation seems... messy. < 1379829442 121898 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also like to have a lot of support of macros. < 1379829452 154732 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also part of my design, although I have not designed that part yet. < 1379829458 643368 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even tried parametrized instantiation yet, though. < 1379829462 148489 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna make me some adders < 1379829508 947480 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw, for xilinx virtex generally has more meat than spartan, right? if you know. < 1379829527 749639 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decimal and hexadecimal numbers would also be polymorphic in HWPL, although binary numbers (which is the default if no prefix is given) are fixed. Do you like this kind of ideas? < 1379829554 976676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: I've heard of both, but can't remember which is more powerful offhand < 1379829560 101394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suspect the virtex are more powerful, though < 1379829562 520198 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Virtex is more powerful? < 1379829566 185733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most of the low-end boards used spartans < 1379829586 446190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, in VHDL, a number is just a number < 1379829588 570297 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aight < 1379829595 865830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can store "1010" in a 4-bit std_logic_vector < 1379829601 290189 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wondering because this paper used virtex and i was wondering what i could fake on my cheap spartan < 1379829607 445303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't store 10 without converting it to a std_logic_vector first < 1379829625 405279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to do conv_std_logic_vector(10, 4) if you wanted to specify it in decimal < 1379829648 69258 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1379829678 328033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, if you want to use a std_logic_vector as an array index (say you're accessing block RAM), you have to convert it to an integer first using conv_integer, because array indexes are integers < 1379829691 351903 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made it differently; in HWPL there are no "numbers", only vectors; they have different properties such as static or dynamic or whatever to tell how they can be used. < 1379829724 547641 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No numbers? What about extrahardware values? < 1379829753 112098 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They will be static vectors; they can be used as numbers in macros and so on. < 1379829809 434481 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about negative ones? < 1379829852 400853 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: You'd think the Spartan would be the one that has less bling. < 1379829888 545880 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah i thought that, but then i thought to myself, "what the fuck is a virtex supposed to be" < 1379829894 320903 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I don't remember a fucking virtex city state" < 1379829899 26941 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A virtual vertex. < 1379829903 358401 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since they are polymorphic they can be negative too, like #-42 and the compiler would make as many bits as needed for a signed integer value to use with the computer, if negative numbers are valid in such places, which it might not be. < 1379829925 654214 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I mean, this is a value that isn't even in the hardware. < 1379829965 900537 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Yes I know what you mean; if a macro takes a 32-bit signed integer then you can get a 32-bit static vector with the high bit being the signed bit, for example. < 1379829992 968781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, implicit casts may be used. < 1379830008 972767 :nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1379830061 368948 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In such case, something like #42 or $2A is a number, and 101010 is a vector, but you can implicitly cast between them. < 1379830066 193653 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could be another way. < 1379830145 45773 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think I like this way better; it works if the compiler requires bignums for something, too. < 1379830224 347420 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this way better? < 1379830237 738753 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. < 1379830280 282642 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There is no need for explicit casts.) < 1379830319 790033 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you cannot cast dynamic vectors to numbers. < 1379830382 326505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, one thing your language must have is recursive module instantiation (using if..generate in order to give a base case) < 1379830399 124487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in VHDL, there's an obvious syntax for it, but it tends to crash compilers or drive them into an infinite loop < 1379830405 18909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I suspect it isn't allowed < 1379830423 666024 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :working off a parameter? < 1379830493 481408 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes; it would need such thing in macros. Powerful macro facility is an important thing I need to have, which allows it to do that, and other things. < 1379830536 993573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: VHDL has "generics", which are basically compile-time parameters < 1379830539 780205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, like, template arguments < 1379830542 281985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd work off one of those < 1379830568 993621 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, right < 1379830576 369019 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :verilog calls them "parameters" near as i can tell < 1379830595 50550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, VHDL and Verilog have an effectively equivalent feature set < 1379830603 522281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just different names and syntax for everything < 1379830615 54203 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :/ boring < 1379830677 887880 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379830842 412868 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of annoying taking a hardware class on all this "low level" stuff and then learning that it's super far from the realities of LUTs < 1379831021 948713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a LUT is basically an arbitrary 4- or 6- input 1-output logic gate that can optionally only change on clock edges < 1379831024 531567 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps, if ? specifies macro parameters then it might be: MODULE !X(?X) .X: BEGIN IF |?X: !X(?X-#1); ... I think that would do it, isn't it? < 1379831041 295470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus some special cases for things like reset circuitry < 1379831095 243222 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, well, we ain't talkin about that in class, is what's sad < 1379831126 937774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pretty simple definition, really < 1379831150 651208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an FPGA just lets you connect them together in various patterns (not arbitrary patterns, there are actually quite a lot of limits in practice, which is why place and route takes so long) < 1379831155 723677 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just kind of want to know more about how the system is actually working < 1379831163 403453 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, like i don't even know what the heck place and route is < 1379831164 519600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with various special-purpose blocks like multipliers and block RAM < 1379831188 666904 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c431376.r76.cf2.rackcdn.com/38376/fnins-07-00014-HTML/image_m/fnins-07-00014-t001.jpg from the paper i was reading earlier; barely know what this means < 1379831193 827569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the first stage of compile is parsing the source code, then working out what circuitry it corresponds to < 1379831202 964012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then placement is where it figures out which circuitry goes on which place of the chip < 1379831208 148815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and routing works out how they interconnect < 1379831214 498770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then after that is assembly and programming < 1379831220 903856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are sometimes system-specific steps in between < 1379831223 648020 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you understand my code, is it like the kind of things you meant? (Well, it contains an error; instead of !X(?X-#1); you need something like !X(?X-#1) .Y; since an I/O vector is needed) < 1379831275 363792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there are two main ways you can use a LUT < 1379831288 430246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you can just use its truthtable behaviour, and have it calculate some logical predicate for you < 1379831299 71664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can ignore that and just care about the clock edge behaviour, that gives you a RAM < 1379831299 294021 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But like, say I make a half adder module, a xor and and; does that become one LUT? if i have multiple half adders does it collapse them into one LUT? that kind of thing < 1379831304 469412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and ofc they can be combined) < 1379831316 791351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a LUT typically only has one output < 1379831323 576375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your half adder is two LUTs < 1379831331 165302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a full adder is also two LUTs < 1379831340 345883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has two outputs, and three inputs (which is ≤ 4) < 1379831357 454457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a LUT on a low-end FPGA can represent an arbitrary Boolean function with 4 or fewer inputs and one output < 1379831373 693859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(higher-end FPGAs have more inputs on their LUTs, 6 or even 8) < 1379831399 680263 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume a LUT has more "inputs" used for programming in a truth table? < 1379831473 670937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can think of it as having 4 inputs that are part of the circuit you're designing, and 16 that tell it which circuit to design < 1379831480 112833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those 16 are "ROM" rather than RAM < 1379831483 282665 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right sure < 1379831496 229267 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :any chance for self modification? < 1379831508 667288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very little < 1379831516 40282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are systems on which it's possible, but it's really complex < 1379831527 744092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's optimized for read, and typically really awkward to write < 1379831537 121658 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, huh, that means the high end luts could have 256 program inputs < 1379831547 186378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1379831549 585885 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that why programming my fpga takes an amount of time that's like, noticeable? < 1379831554 783834 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the awkward to read thing i mean < 1379831561 278167 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to write*, fuck < 1379831573 242578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the reasons, probably the main one < 1379831589 107244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other one's just a matter of bandwidth < 1379831595 191816 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm. < 1379831597 198029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only drive so much data through a JTAG cable < 1379831628 953236 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is jtag exactly, i just sort of plug my usb in and things happen < 1379831631 22781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self modification would be easier on a open source FPGA anyways; once they are made then you can do a lot of things that closed source FPGAs don't do. They could compete well with existing FPGAs and I expect both kinds would remain in business; a company that does both would make a lot of sales, I suppose. < 1379831636 609449 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for asking so many questions btw < 1379831651 975006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's OK < 1379831653 795796 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you should not be sorry for asking so many questions btw. < 1379831663 137342 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :noted. < 1379831668 753019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and JTAG's just a cable design + port shape, like RS232 or USB or whatever < 1379831676 378805 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's it stand for? < 1379831679 328679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's what's normally used to program hardware < 1379831687 802157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know, but Wikipedia probably does < 1379831692 135238 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1379831697 475863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never really needed to know < 1379831703 45919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Joint Test Action Group" < 1379831705 494072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember that < 1379831722 340012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Joint Test Action Group (JTAG) is the common name for the IEEE 1149.1 Standard Test Access Port and Boundary-Scan Architecture. It was initially devised by electronic engineers for testing printed circuit boards using boundary scan and is still widely used for this application." < 1379831723 208848 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, apparently < 1379831731 751397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, it's used for hardware debuggers < 1379831744 996893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's used for programming too < 1379831758 336833 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that makes sense. similar things. < 1379831765 8328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, to debug hardware, you shift all the values out of its debug registers, and shift the test pattern for the next cycle in at the same time < 1379831777 125346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :replace "debug register" with "program register" and now you have a programmer < 1379831795 855432 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, right < 1379831811 594784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although typically that's a stupid way to implement it and the programming circuits are entirely different < 1379831821 463688 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1379831829 927849 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you do anything with analog for your jobgradstudentthing? < 1379831838 504502 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is the example I gave anything like what you meant by recursive module instantiation, and do you expect such a thing would work? < 1379831856 640170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well it's in a syntax I don't recognise < 1379831863 273107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: no, it's all entirely digital < 1379831866 308140 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw < 1379831887 744862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did a bunch of analog for my masters degree, though < 1379831892 886370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not on FPGAs < 1379831925 866860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, our plan for the analog stuff was hilarious < 1379831934 789655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we needed to do Fourier analysis and the like < 1379831943 329331 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, after the module name is the parameters in parentheses, followed by the I/O vector, and then, if ORing all bits together in the macro parameter results in the bit being set, it will call the module again with one less. < 1379831964 610340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so our plan was just "let's get a microcontroller fast enough to do the processing, with the best-quality A to D we can afford" < 1379832009 487693 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, i made the mistake of looking up the school boards' ethernet hardware. don't understand a lick of it, and here i was thinking i knew how adcs worked < 1379832026 647967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think that bit of the design is the bit that failed < 1379832028 514404 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :looked up one of the terms used and it was a circuit thing invented by somebody who worked on squid axons in the 30s. insane < 1379832077 271295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the most common adc design is just a dac in a negative feedback loop < 1379832105 673759 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't bother, i already found out i don't understand anything :( < 1379832142 761810 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Then you must learn. < 1379832145 512892 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was all excited to program my fpga to specifically annoy elliott < 1379832208 288650 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Does this description of the syntax help you to understand it? < 1379832241 440118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1379832317 960419 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah i'm just being dramatic. apparently the basis of much of modern technology isn't simple?? ripoff imo. < 1379832359 780958 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Can you please be more specific in your question? < 1379832375 955182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well there isn't a description that I can see < 1379832389 393203 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you missed it; it is written above. < 1379832416 458063 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will repeat it: After the module name is the parameters in parentheses, followed by the I/O vector, and then, if ORing all bits together in the macro parameter results in the bit being set, it will call the module again with one less. < 1379832434 787035 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now did you see? < 1379832455 543991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like a bit of a complex special case < 1379832491 245420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one that wouldn't fit the sort of recursion I actually needed (I needed to instantiate two modules, each with half the bits) < 1379832546 608437 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that isn't it, although you could make it to do that too. < 1379832568 111051 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you have an implicit parameter it could < 1379832599 219328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like implicit parameters < 1379832610 717807 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I accidentally sequence broke in Antichamber < 1379832612 231066 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be explicit too < 1379832627 468836 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use a carry-select adder as a simple recursive example, maybe < 1379832669 16801 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of a shitty design but probably simple to understand? < 1379832680 684364 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which i mean, i can understand it < 1379832737 379914 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :MODULE !X(?COUNT) .X: BEGIN IF ?COUNT=1: BEGIN ... END ELSE: BEGIN !X(?COUNT/#2) .X[?COUNT/#2-1:0]; ... Of course this is incomplete but maybe it is understandable a bit < 1379832751 6119 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably wouldn't be quite exactly like this either < 1379832757 658467 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know exactly how you mean, either < 1379832828 901657 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is this a little bit close? Clearly it isn't quite sufficient; even the parts that aren't omitted are incomplete. < 1379832844 270581 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this syntax is hard to read and i kind of automatically hate it? < 1379832887 218485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well it's not as simple as my description in practice either < 1379832912 640115 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wouldn't expect it to be; both of us just give the examples < 1379832994 812509 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's less than a week away now < 1379833008 264497 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the apocalypse? < 1379833014 145007 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of < 1379833019 420039 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me moving to York < 1379833019 650760 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The equinox? < 1379833033 162550 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, wasn't the equinox the day before yesterday? < 1379833044 368904 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: No. < 1379833074 448947 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it was yesterday < 1379833076 48275 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... < 1379833084 368707 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually watched sunrise on the equinox < 1379833091 41114 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then went to an anime con < 1379833103 723382 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it wasn't yesterday. < 1379833136 483726 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is 22 Sep at 20:44 GMT. < 1379833157 702246 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god that's today < 1379833162 414388 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's moving forwards < 1379833194 144821 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why we have leap years. < 1379833229 5340 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing I've eaten in the last 24 hours is a small chocolate cake < 1379833242 562558 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :was the cake good < 1379833246 271295 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1379833248 195111 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it was < 1379833258 419185 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a cosplay maid service < 1379833294 298873 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I calculated the equinox using the horoscope in my computer; just now I also checked on Wikipedia to confirm and it says the same thing. < 1379833561 462342 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Astrolog, the indications of ecliptic longitudes are colored according to the classical element they are associated with, making it very easy to see where it changes. < 1379833628 997235 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some printed calendars also indicate exactly when the equinox is, but the one I have doesn't have that. < 1379833941 19726 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What anime con was that? < 1379833958 599567 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not gone to anime this year, but I did last year and may do so again next year. < 1379834099 77859 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, it was just a small local one < 1379834103 297879 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chibi Sunny < 1379834118 626941 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a smaller spin-off from one of the larger local ones < 1379834152 709734 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did they have mahjong there? Some anime conventions sometimes have mahjong. Once I brought my Washizu mahjong game to an anime convention and played against one of the other people there < 1379834203 137401 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they did not < 1379834211 747036 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot recall ever seeing mahjong at an anime con < 1379834218 24749 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw Go at one, though < 1379834285 711587 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw shogi at one, not as a scheduled event though but something someone was doing in their spare time in the games room. I have read about ones with mahjong but haven't seen it except when I brought it once < 1379834304 942602 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever been to an anime con < 1379834309 221462 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not entirely sure < 1379834356 552336 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have once won a Magic: the Gathering tournament in an anime convention, although due to one of my opponents conceding an entire match, my score was not entered into the computer correctly. < 1379834378 84663 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have lost (and gotten last place) in all other M:tG tournaments I have ever played in. < 1379834597 756883 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Why aren't you sure? < 1379834733 949331 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I have gone to M:tG tournaments at conventions mostly and have not paid attention to the convention itself < 1379834746 521715 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Do you know how to play shogi or mahjong though? Do you know how to play Washizu mahjong (from the "Akagi" manga)? < 1379834761 684604 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know at all < 1379834763 429724 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Constructed, Limited, or both? < 1379834774 146694 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even play solitaire mahjong < 1379834776 190784 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I go to the convention I do pay attention to the other things too < 1379834829 137528 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379834902 411744 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Well, solitaire mahjong can be explained in only a few sentences pretty easily. Mahjong is more complicated (although the same tiles are used). < 1379834924 504669 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am the worst at Go < 1379834945 779076 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not very good at Go either, but at least I can play. Can you play shogi at all? < 1379834953 618062 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1379834961 824162 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I actually know what shogi is < 1379834965 218364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know any manga by Fukumoto? < 1379834970 557972 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1379835005 568984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Shogi is a Japanese game which is like chess, although using flat pieces, the owner is known by the direction rather than the color, on a 9x9 board, and once you capture an opponent's piece you can on a later turn, put it back in the board as your own piece. < 1379835088 125917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can promote pieces by moving them into, out of, or through the back three rows of the board < 1379835105 269790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although most pieces just promote into golds, which aren't amazingly good, so promoting them isn't as worthwhile as in Western chess < 1379835106 28558 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have played tsume shogi games on GameBoy and I like those kind of games (especially the one by Athena). They are like a chess puzzle, but with shogi, and you must give check on every turn. I have solved a lot of them but not nearly even half of them yet. < 1379835117 85395 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, that too. < 1379835134 768090 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shogi pieces promote to whatever is on the other side of the piece, rather than the choice like in FIDE. < 1379835170 738061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's some rule that you can't drop pawns to give or block checkmate, or something like that; I can't remember the details but zzo38 probably knows < 1379835189 786922 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot drop a pawn to give checkmate (you can give check, though). < 1379835199 31883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1379835200 141469 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other pieces can be dropped to give checkmate. < 1379835208 650836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no rule against dropping a pawn to block a checkmate? < 1379835220 58089 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, there is no rule against that. < 1379835230 688086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that rule against dropping pawns to give checkmate seems oddly specific < 1379835237 767237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why it exists, there's probably a good reason < 1379835254 691943 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another rule for pawn drops is you cannot do so if there is already another of your own unpromoted pawn in the same column. < 1379835296 552325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that one makes more sense though < 1379835310 268476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you can't move a piece in such a way that it would be unable to move further < 1379835321 113921 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know, but at least it does make interesting situations for some tsume shogi. < 1379835321 971694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you move a pawn to the back rank, or a knight to the back two ranks, you must promote it < 1379835332 94747 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, that is correct too; you must promote it and cannot drop it there < 1379835361 744917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dropping a piece in the promotion zone isn't enough to promote it < 1379835365 848881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(otherwise people would do that all the time) < 1379835393 90141 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is also correct. It must move. < 1379835481 149148 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the kind of situations I describe means that the defending player should not always promote a piece that is strictly more powerful when promoted (flying chariot (rook) and angle mover (bishop)) < 1379835516 767294 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not a very good strategist < 1379835555 601866 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a good strategist for some games. < 1379835569 450225 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including Dungeons&Dragons game, but also including some computer games) < 1379835736 58957 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, have you ever heard of the tabletop RPG Diana: Warrior Princess? < 1379835740 306440 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some people on this channel who did not know mahjong once said it is as confusing as Mornington Crescent. Well, I can tell you that it isn't. (Search the logs) < 1379835744 847650 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: No. < 1379835753 896894 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a silly one < 1379835772 747941 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The premise is "What if Xena: Warrior Princess was made in 2000 years time and set in the present day?" < 1379835797 849277 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to try to GM it when I get to uni < 1379835988 783193 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I sometimes overSicilian them. < 1379836068 45563 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want your character to worship the god who shall not be named because it is difficult to pronounce? < 1379836192 740069 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the god of my character, at least. < 1379836524 846804 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I gave the DM several suggestions that would make the game much more difficult, he has suggestion I design the campaign templates and then he will adjust it to his use. I partially do so; some things I purposefully keep hidden from myself! < 1379836549 233146 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1379836657 745812 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though he makes up situations which he believes to have no solution, somehow I always find them anyways; he isn't being "diabolical" enough (when I explained things to him even in contexts completely unrelated to the game, he has called my ideas "extremely diabolical" simply because he cannot think of it himself, I suppose). < 1379836673 696538 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he is an intelligent person! < 1379836696 508534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it? < 1379836770 839303 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'd enjoy being in a game GM'd by you, I'd probably get trapped in a small room with a hatch 40 feet up with only a rake < 1379836831 616155 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you managed to do so, it would probably be your own fault for not being sufficiently careful. < 1379836844 95521 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or for making incorrect assumptions. < 1379836845 729374 :Jafet!~jafet@static.77.207.4.46.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not so hard; it depends on how many toothpicks you are given. < 1379837086 274786 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesterday there was a team Adventure Time quiz < 1379837102 716033 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my team neither of us had actually watched Adventure Time < 1379837108 479742 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We scored I think 8/12 < 1379837208 864011 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that I have invented some puzzles on computer games, where the people who wrote the rules for the game, also being very good at the puzzles, gave up after several tries. < 1379837264 393644 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even viewing the source codes for the puzzles, which I encouraged; this tends to deceive people even more despite being written clearly.) < 1379837363 43993 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some kind of puzzle games that I am very good at. (Others I am pretty bad at, however.) < 1379837531 587292 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1379837650 88703 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incorrect assumptions are made, such as: Healing potions and kill enemies potions are good for you, wind potions are bad for you, BIG_MONSTER is evil and you should kill them, certain objects cannot be pushed, a key should be collected right away, Hell is not in Norway, most rooms have yellow walls, and other things. < 1379838308 775941 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1379839025 977150 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379839104 106005 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.114 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1379842479 205881 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1379843205 598479 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@HSI-KBW-134-3-130-100.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1379843603 566163 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't Hell in Jamaica < 1379843813 233917 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cayman Islands, sorry < 1379844296 595984 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1379845016 56421 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1379845241 413059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1379845643 917264 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379845767 612667 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1379848970 10447 :nortti!nortti@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catpad.net/michael/apl/ < 1379849853 273439 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379851592 143316 :nooodl!~nooodl@51.191-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1379851606 674958 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-157-40.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1379851822 690292 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-176-243.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379852131 841671 :atriq!~nathan@host-92-30-142-217.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379852136 95901 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379852138 298644 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1379852163 871286 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-176-243.as13285.net QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1379852169 686386 :atriq!~nathan@host-92-30-142-217.as13285.net NICK :Taneb < 1379852364 583010 :Taneb!~nathan@host-92-30-142-217.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1379852469 117754 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1379852484 574761 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-142-217.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379853148 317987 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1379857575 221920 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1379857675 840780 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-203-32.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1379858989 261032 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-30-195-50.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379859086 723124 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-142-217.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1379859336 354590 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-92-30-201-31.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379859476 859860 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-92-30-201-31.as13285.net NICK :Taneb < 1379859495 830760 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-30-195-50.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1379860312 654319 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-201-31.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1379860317 372708 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-23-143-238.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379860487 216695 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379860489 925961 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi! < 1379860491 38667 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Al Zimmermann has announced his latest Programming Contest "Graceful Graphs" http://azspcs.net/Contest/GracefulGraphs < 1379860498 348217 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone entering? < 1379860878 220474 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it, can't you just have a depth one tree with 0 as the root < 1379860988 31773 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you don't need the vertex labels to be contiguous, i gues < 1379861169 475784 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears to be the same problem as optimal sparse rulers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparse_ruler < 1379861348 14015 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Isn't Hell in Jamaica <-- no it is most definitely in norway. just had their yearly blues festival. < 1379861807 204436 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.114 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1379863631 354464 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-92-30-192-170.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379863734 173082 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-23-143-238.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1379864142 868801 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379865418 904811 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1379865747 302886 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1379866050 306649 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1379866354 784279 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-92-30-192-170.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1379866357 855279 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-23-120-152.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379866756 966096 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-23-120-152.as13285.net NICK :Taneb < 1379867138 649961 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1379867613 286780 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1379868291 364917 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1379868729 249403 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brother has suggested that the "Attribute Zone" game might be easier to understand if played on an actual NES/Famicom system. < 1379869209 640965 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-23-120-152.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1379870148 259595 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1379871644 52163 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379873305 583704 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379874117 308737 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I dunno < 1379874775 236809 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1379874992 151996 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Then what do you think it is? < 1379875000 561780 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be more likely? < 1379875014 606343 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know anything about it at all anyways? < 1379875019 634019 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you programmed Famicom? < 1379875067 179913 :Taneb!~Taneb@92.30.154.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379875465 895997 :trout!root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :function < 1379875552 847348 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379875588 782167 :Taneb!~Taneb@92.30.154.255 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1379875594 789378 :atriq!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net NICK :Taneb < 1379875759 500139 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm pretty sure I've done constructed < 1379875767 63678 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've done limited < 1379875791 232181 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't done Limited? I only do Limited. < 1379876152 524254 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at a convention < 1379876207 994783 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The conventions I was in offer both kinds < 1379876456 325834 :conehead!~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead JOIN :#esoteric < 1379877215 914037 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 257 seconds < 1379877232 923963 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379877428 650680 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1379877453 362310 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379877483 99242 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@94-224-28-191.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1379877922 456784 :MindlessDrone!~MindlessD@HSI-KBW-134-3-130-100.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de QUIT :Quit: MindlessDrone < 1379878197 137595 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379878915 482379 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379879763 930511 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1379879783 708826 :function!root@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :in prolog grt_than(sucC(0), 0). grt_than(sucC(A), sucC(B)) :- grt_than(A, B). I don't see why grt_than(sucC(sucC(0)),0). is false < 1379879840 797439 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the difference is false < 1379879850 371983 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grt_than(suc(X),0). < 1379879853 163409 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1379879856 309095 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is greater than 1 < 1379879863 280341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't look completed to me < 1379879872 888476 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just say < 1379879875 438104 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 > 0 < 1379879893 249510 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 > 0 => 2 > 1 < 1379879900 889096 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never say that 2 > 0 < 1379879904 471452 :function!root@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1379879914 38328 :impomatic!~digital_w@200.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The new Al Zimmermann programming contest seems easier than usual. Unless I've missed something http://azpcs.net < 1379879925 826804 :function!root@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to figure out how to do this with only 2 clauses < 1379879937 901776 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:57:29 grt_than(suc(X),0). < 1379879948 125341 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANY successor is greater than 0 < 1379879953 839928 :function!root@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooh < 1379879955 846617 :function!root@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1379879981 316997 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I suppose that would make it completed. < 1379879983 910585 :function!root@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks! < 1379880008 229277 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really like the idea of prolog, but i'm just plain stupid when it comes to io < 1379880036 622435 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i made a valid deadfish interpreter in prolog, but i'm too dumb to process strings :D < 1379880060 715880 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the wiki is none last time i checked < 1379880351 627824 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, Wolfram Alpha is really useful for answering mathematical trivia questions. < 1379880372 761639 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "what is the ratio of the surface areas of the moon and the earth" < 1379880606 743117 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal catches up with the world circa 4 years ago < 1379880632 232899 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I never really found a use for W|A until now indeed < 1379880658 714033 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :useless numerical trivia is basically the primary feature of WA < 1379880679 998648 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that and solving integrals for homework < 1379880768 988843 :Bike!~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unit conversions are also convenient. and good for homework. < 1379880814 430149 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unit conversions are basically a subset of numerical trivia < 1379880882 497799 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. I wonder if anything is going to break real bad if I just dd-clone a GPT disk (1T, partitions on the first 240G, rest unallocated) onto a smaller (512G) disk, and then swap it in place of the original. (E.g. is the disk size recorded in the GPT disklabel or something.) < 1379880920 102939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there's GUIDs < 1379880932 71799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not meant to duplicate a GPT disk like that because the identifiers are meant to be unique or whatever < 1379880950 572159 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it'll actually explode as long as you don't let the original disk within a ten mile radius, but there are scary warnings telling you it's bad around the internet. < 1379880958 904015 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mhm. < 1379880971 676625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably GPT-specific cloning tools that correctly reassign identifiers and stuff? < 1379880993 475549 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean, I could just recreate the partitions with gdisk, they'd get random GUIDs. < 1379881006 386607 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm wondering is if that'd mess up the Windows living on the disk. < 1379881216 818564 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I suspect you would need the GUIDs to not vary if you want Windows to work, as for doing it to a smaller disk, do the partitions fit on the smaller disk? < 1379881225 256671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1379881234 883640 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(240 is less than 512.) < 1379881275 272445 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you are not allowed to connect both drives in the same device after you cloned the disk, at least Windows will not like it. < 1379881281 958675 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot what actually happens if you try it < 1379881289 442413 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's not an issue. < 1379881303 119406 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could try cloning it, and see if it works < 1379881305 82222 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could dd over the network so that the two disks are never in a single computer simultaneously. < 1379881312 865882 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't, then you could just try cloning it another way < 1379881321 31924 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's that. < 1379881332 262759 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why are you moving to a smaller disk btw? < 1379881347 454474 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 512G disk is a SSD, the 1T disk is not. < 1379881388 195310 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia's list of GPT headers doesn't seem to have any size information, though it mentions there's a copy of the disklabel "somewhere". (With my luck, at the opposite end of the disk.) < 1379881392 919642 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Ah, Windows may or may not like a change like that. At least I doubt it will be using TRIM properly unless you change some settings < 1379881420 919808 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The values for current and backup LBAs of the primary header should be the second sector of the disk and the last sector of the disk" well naturally. < 1379881440 204118 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1379881440 544006 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could try use some sort of proper Windows solution of backup-reinstall-restore. < 1379881448 941332 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck with that < 1379881500 975940 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about putting GPT disks into RAID 1? Surely that means that there are technically duplicate disks? < 1379881546 257822 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if both disks have their own GPT disklabel and different partitions that work as the RAID backing-storage. < 1379881556 434918 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant hardware RAID 1 < 1379881577 380758 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that's no problem since it's not something the OS logically sees? < 1379881585 539188 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1379881606 794919 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess OSes are in their right to store a map from the GUIDs to every physical thing about the disk they know. < 1379881618 487280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in theory things could explode. < 1379881639 621708 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it probably won't, except that TRIM might not be used automatically < 1379881642 747464 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is my guess < 1379881655 626638 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrt the backup block at the end though, hrrm < 1379881685 155512 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=154057 < 1379881693 768233 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't read it, just saw the title on searching < 1379881695 448753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: anyway perhaps you should clone the disk and then smash the old one to pieces. < 1379881702 332256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it like teleportation. < 1379881754 531779 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some sort of lifehacker.com guide about migrating Windows to a smaller SSD drive, that seems a Windows-native solution < 1379881767 485920 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just for backup, keep it < 1379881792 695867 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it seems there are issues with migrating to a smaller disk indeed < 1379881818 856953 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course that seems to use some sort of "EaseUS Todo Backup" software that I'm not terribly sure I want to bother with. < 1379881866 128442 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does claim that rerunning the Windows Experience Assessment will turn on TRIM and stuff like that. < 1379882052 91426 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some other guide that uses Windows' own "create a system image" backup tool, then reinstalls Windows on the SSD and does a system restore. I suppose my options are either trying the clone thing (with whatever GPT backup disklabel move with gpt expert options nonsense) or something like that. < 1379882147 625330 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah it seems like that link I posted shows you how to solve it wrt. dd < 1379882185 808840 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I guess you would need to do this if you expand the disk too < 1379882426 567450 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.114 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1379882709 323414 :Koen!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379882775 321719 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379882775 692786 :Koen!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1379882776 376194 :Koen_!~Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net NICK :Koen < 1379883330 19575 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1379883472 828005 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1379883551 51040 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm...!!! < 1379884095 660767 :Zathur!~Zathur---@151.pool85-60-235.dynamic.orange.es JOIN :#esoteric < 1379884324 874298 :Zathur!~Zathur---@151.pool85-60-235.dynamic.orange.es PART #esoteric :"Saliendo" < 1379884341 859449 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379885007 158287 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1379885109 508858 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few days of Z-Comp remains, actually. < 1379885140 216770 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know how to hack HackEgo back? >:) < 1379885221 236933 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, Fiora Homestuck update < 1379885225 885749 :Fiora!~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slist < 1379885240 776644 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo's missing < 1379885242 716924 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1379885259 418723 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know, but things like `slist can still be used, and will work if they are filtered on the client-side instead of server-side. < 1379885279 506493 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1379885279 895977 NAMES :#esoteric < 1379885305 929953 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will still enter `danddreclist when it is updated even though HackEgo won't respond, so if you want to be notified you have to configure your client to do so instead, please. < 1379885380 627244 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1379885380 649762 NAMES :#esoteric < 1379885535 681322 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, the lists are gone? < 1379885586 639686 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo is gone. < 1379885599 295724 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a worthwhile sacrifice < 1379885656 905973 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like exile, really. < 1379885700 99390 :nooodl!~nooodl@51.191-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1379885736 673899 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo is still connected though so it can still be accessed. < 1379885762 302665 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the lists can still be used like how I described. (In fact I described it even before HackEgo was gone but you didn't believe me.) < 1379885806 191254 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't disbelieve you. i just didn't see the point. < 1379885828 805548 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now you should see the point. < 1379885940 156375 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going now < 1379885943 392365 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-92-30-183-83.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1379886231 701993 :augur!~augur@ip-64-134-240-172.public.wayport.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1379888274 357513 :function!root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :variable < 1379888344 754184 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the guru still meditating? < 1379888395 287586 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What guru? < 1379888597 278614 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :constant < 1379889891 673310 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, that's passing strange: the clone method seems to have worked. < 1379890387 602159 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you cloning < 1379890435 279913 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A 1T HDD with a GPT disklabel, Windows 8 and EFI boot stuffs for Debian, onto a 512GB SSD. < 1379890440 351610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sordid details are in the log. < 1379890464 521955 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1379891087 253743 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow riot for new zero kanada < 1379891245 266407 :OriginalOldMan!62e8625f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.232.98.95 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379891640 534995 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a new /topic, this one has lasted alarmingly long < 1379891714 428769 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1379892565 245150 :OriginalOldMan!62e8625f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.232.98.95 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1379892681 635803 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am i reading wp's list of common false etymologies < 1379892681 781054 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all cringeworthy acronyms < 1379892800 925736 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :link < 1379892806 636496 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_false_etymologies < 1379892822 543114 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they're not all acronyms but they're all cringeworthy) < 1379892896 833359 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now make a list of cringeworthy _true_ etymologies. < 1379892923 205289 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 TOPIC #esoteric :topic undergoing maintenance < 1379893084 681806 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what's that "norwegian fukka" the article mentions, i suspect that should be old norse instead. < 1379893110 311312 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :oerjan > 1379893110 529092 NAMES :#esoteric < 1379893125 777158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no KICK #esoteric Phantom_Hoover :He removed the log link < 1379893132 287967 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no MODE #esoteric -o :oerjan > 1379893132 318693 NAMES :#esoteric < 1379893148 247185 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :topic undergoing maintenance | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric < 1379893235 587386 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1379893261 928992 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1379893752 276351 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: wow, so bored on a sunday afternoon that you're picking fights with internet libertarians? ;) < 1379893771 358086 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :try librarians instead. < 1379893917 691106 :mnoqy!~okay@pool-98-108-206-66.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello