00:05:56 -!- Ghoul_ has joined.
00:07:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:24:19 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:25:54 -!- augur has joined.
00:26:24 -!- nathnath has left.
00:32:48 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
00:33:55 -!- Lymia has joined.
00:56:44 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:58:45 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:59:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:01:45 -!- tswett has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.").
01:06:10 -!- Bike has joined.
01:07:50 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
01:08:43 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
01:09:44 -!- prooftechnique has quit.
01:12:44 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:27:38 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
01:31:45 -!- ter2 has joined.
01:34:40 -!- ter2 has changed nick to tertu.
01:35:58 <oerjan> <ion> Semigroupoids are like the vegetarian version <-- i don't see the need for the term semigroupoid, since categories are identical.
01:41:42 <kmc> i prefer non-associative semigroupoids
01:45:40 <ion> oerjan: Uh, i thought semigroupoids are categories sans id. But i probably remember incorrectly.
01:45:49 <kmc> "On Windows, we cannot make a flie named 'aux'. So It doesn't make src/components/main/layout/aux.rs on Win"
01:45:52 <kmc> best platform ever
01:46:27 <oerjan> the top hit for magmoid is relevant, dunno about the rest.
01:49:10 -!- Ghoul_ has quit.
01:49:27 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, AUX is a DOS device name in Windows. So is CON, PRN, COM1, COM2, LPT1, etc. Yes it can be a problem, such as that one.
01:50:27 <kmc> who here remembers <img src="file:///con/con">
01:50:49 <zzo38> They should have perhaps used a symbol at front which isn't used in actual filenames, in DOS 1.0, but that isn't what they did.
01:51:20 <kmc> <a target="_blank" href="about:while(1){window.open(document.src)}">click here</a>
01:51:34 <kmc> 90s Kids Remember These 12 IE5 DoS Exploits
01:52:31 <zzo38> I have done in some versions of ZZT, made a link to CON in a menu, which caused strange things to happen. In the latest version I believe that bug is fixed and a link to CON is an error.
01:52:55 <oerjan> ion: that is correct. thus semigroupoids are not identical, but categories are.
01:58:56 <ion> oerjan: Oooh, i see what you did there.
01:59:51 <oerjan> puns: sometimes they get too deep and sink
02:00:20 <ion> Especially funpuns
02:00:51 <kmc> i sunk columbus, oh
02:04:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:07:10 <Sgeo> Are there any good amateur philosophy subreddits? I get the impression that /r/philosophy isn't one. I want to rant about how "same" is a silly concept
02:07:56 <kmc> "amateur philosophy subreddit" ;_;
02:08:21 <oerjan> kmc: i think we need to find such a subreddit to ask whether it's ethical to answer that question
02:08:50 <kmc> do you enjoy arguing with programmers who have never taken a philosophy class or read a book but think that they're automatically an expert because humanities are for dumb people
02:08:51 <ion> kmc: Not just any amateur, *good* amateur.
02:09:33 <Sgeo> Also, kmc, I have a criticism of Rust in regards to macros
02:09:34 <kmc> at least when they do this about philosophy it's of no real consequence to anyone
02:10:09 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophers seems empty
02:10:28 <oerjan> (based on r/askhistorians, it was the obvious place)
02:10:48 <Sgeo> "To make this behavior more obvious, the rule has been made that use-statement always need to be written before any declaration, like in the example above. This is a purely artificial rule introduced because people always assumed they shadowed each other based on order, despite the fact that all items in rust are mutually recursive, order independent definitions."
02:11:34 <Sgeo> Having artificial restrictions like this could hinder the ability for macros to emit such code without regard to their location in the file, or mixing two separate macros that both expand to use-statements and declarations
02:11:48 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy looks promising
02:11:59 <Sgeo> I think I'm lagging a bit
02:12:22 <kmc> Sgeo: interesting
02:12:29 <kmc> I'm not sure that macros can even emit "use" items at the moment
02:12:31 <kmc> but I think they can
02:12:35 <kmc> rust-http generates whole modules from macros
02:12:53 <kmc> btw, another confusing consequence of that is "use foo::Bar; ...; mod foo;"
02:12:57 <kmc> it must be in that order and not the other
02:13:16 <Sgeo> I think there's another similar artificial restriction that's related (external mod, I think?) but same concept/concern
02:14:01 <kmc> "mod foo;" is a definition and not just a declaration; it creates a module named "foo", but it grabs the module contents from an external file foo.rs and so it doesn't really "look like" a definition
02:16:03 <shachaf> Sgeo: you should start reddit.com/r/Sgeo
02:16:59 <Sgeo> shachaf: that's such a good idea, I'll hop in my time machine and do it a year ago
02:17:54 <Sgeo> (I wanted to see what the mod tools were like)
02:18:36 <shachaf> i was hoping for a place full of Sgeoy things
02:18:47 <shachaf> such as «Are there any good amateur philosophy subreddits? I get the impression that /r/philosophy isn't one. I want to rant about how "same" is a silly concept»
02:18:59 <oerjan> shachaf: are you sure this would be safe?
02:18:59 <Bike> did sgeo say that
02:19:27 <oerjan> Bike: well he said the same thing
02:19:44 <Bike> oh, indeed he did
02:20:07 <Bike> a good amateur philosophy subreddit presumes good amateur philosophy
02:20:08 <oerjan> whether this means he said that, you'll have to ask an amateur philosopher.
02:20:17 <shachaf> Bike: well, it could be empty
02:20:39 <oerjan> shachaf: for the universe. maybe it would turn reddit into a black hole or something.
02:20:52 <Bike> could make /r/BikeGetsOwned. only user is shachaf
02:21:01 <Bike> just constantly burning me left and right
02:21:59 * oerjan remembers to drink his irange juice
02:22:00 <shachaf> the other day i found reddit.com/r/magicskyfairy which seems to be a sort of improvement on reddit.com/r/atheism
02:22:19 <oerjan> i don't know what that is, i thought it was orange but the keyboard doesn't lie
02:22:52 <shachaf> the true spirit of reddit, i think
02:23:13 <kmc> haha an improvement on /r/atheism
02:23:45 <oerjan> /r/atheism, now with blackjack and hookers
02:24:17 <shachaf> kmc: hard to believe, i know
02:27:28 <zzo38> I have heard a lot, many people think of "God" as the "magic sky fairy" and is why those people don't believe in such things. Other people are not so dumb. And learn ignosticism too.
02:28:33 <oerjan> <shachaf> are antipodes related to octopodes <-- whatever you do, don't mix them, especially not in 8:1 proportion
02:29:36 <ion> Hey, i heat my house with that energy.
02:30:35 <oerjan> also you get a nice tan from the gamma rays?
02:32:05 <kmc> i get really nervous whenever I add an rm -rf rule to a makefile
02:34:01 <kmc> zzo38: I don't think it's *why* those people don't believe in a god, it's just a way to make fun of people who do
02:34:41 <zzo38> kmc: Probably you are correct at least in some cases. I don't know if it is true in all cases.
02:34:51 <kmc> i dislike religion immensely but that kind of mockery is probably bad and unhelpful
02:35:11 <zzo38> I think you are correct, it isn't very helpful.
02:35:42 <kmc> one thing that most of the Angry Internet Atheists tend to miss is that religions fulfill like 30 different social roles, many of which have nothing to do with superstition or metaphysics
02:35:51 <kmc> the fact that they are tied up with superstition and metaphysics is historical baggage
02:36:05 <zzo38> Yes, that is true too, you do make the good points too
02:39:32 <prooftechnique> I think ignosticism should be a thing. You just don't think about the existence of god
02:39:43 <kmc> it is a thing
02:39:47 <kmc> zzo38 just recommended it
02:39:58 <kmc> (I've heard it called "apatheism" as well)
02:40:09 <Bike> it actually means the belief that questions of theism can't be dealt with without an adequate definition of 'god' etc
02:40:14 <kmc> there are other positions like, "whether god exists is an ill-posed question"
02:40:33 <kmc> which is different from "i don't care" and also different from the traditional agnostic "we can't ever know"
02:40:43 <kmc> "whether god exists is independent of the axioms of ZFC"
02:40:52 <zzo38> Bike: Yes that is what I meant
02:41:11 <Bike> kmc: [gödel joke]
02:41:37 <kmc> but of course we can talk about systems ZFC+Θ and ZFC+¬Θ
02:41:53 <zzo38> Yes I think that is correct, whether or not God exists is an ill-posed question.
02:42:03 <kmc> can God create a statement of number theory which is so self referential that even He cannot prove or disprove it
02:42:57 <kmc> I assume that Gödel actually said something about that at some point
02:42:59 <kmc> anyone know what?
02:43:20 <Bike> oh, i was referring to godel's attempted proof of god's existence
02:43:28 <kmc> yeah I figured
02:44:00 <kmc> lexande: do you know if he said anything about it?
02:44:21 <kmc> I guess it is similar to other simpler theological puzzles such as, can god create an object which is both light and heavy
02:44:28 <kmc> or a glass which is both empty and full
02:44:39 <kmc> (can god create an object whose inertial mass differs from its gravitational mass?)
02:45:57 -!- drlemon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:46:10 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose they might be possible, but not in this universe (by definition)
02:46:28 <kmc> can god create a new universe where naive set theory is consistent
02:46:37 <Bike> a philosopher buddy of mine happened to be reading a book on godel's philosophical influences, perhaps it is relevant http://www.amazon.com/After-Godel-Platonism-Rationalism-Mathematics/dp/019960620X
02:46:59 <Bike> as for that, i <3 psychologism~
02:47:04 <zzo38> kmc: But set theory is mathematics, not physics. Therefore the question is wrong.
02:47:07 <kmc> yeah i don't "read books" or anything like this
02:47:41 <kmc> zzo38: oh?
02:48:10 <lexande> zzo38: uh, i think that's explicitly the question
02:48:22 <lexande> of whether maths had to be the same in all "universes"
02:48:34 -!- nisstyre has joined.
02:48:44 <zzo38> I think it does have to be the same.
02:49:10 <lexande> how about the fact that YHWH apparenly thinks that pi=3.0?
02:49:18 <kmc> prooftechnique: I guess my view is a form of agnosticism, in that I believe any evidence of God which is admissible to a finite mind would be better explained (c.f. occam's razor) with beings of finite power instead
02:49:23 <kmc> "god doesn't exist, aliens are just fucking with you"
02:49:25 <zzo38> lexande: That is simply an error in the Bible.
02:49:39 <zzo38> Any book can contain errors.
02:49:56 <kmc> prooftechnique: so I can't assert "there is no god" but i have no reason to believe there is one, and I never could
02:50:04 <lexande> zzo38: so i'd say that no universe where naive set theory is consistent exists
02:50:13 <lexande> but i think this relies heavily on my definition of "exists"
02:50:13 <kmc> zzo38: many people believe quite explicitly that the Bible is exempt from that fact about books
02:50:17 <prooftechnique> kmc: I can get down with a little Lovecraftian theology, sure
02:50:23 <kmc> prooftechnique: heh is that what we call it
02:50:52 <zzo38> However if you say God created that, God did that, deliberately, accidentally, by choice, by having no choice, etc, it is just metaphorical and why should we think it is applicable to God in the same way it is to us? Probably it isn't.
02:50:59 <lexande> kmc: how about the statement that you're in a simulation?
02:51:08 <Bike> could naive set theory be consistent in this cardboard box right here
02:51:17 <prooftechnique> That sounds exciting because maybe there are cheat codes
02:51:21 <zzo38> People think of God as a Person, but that is silly and stupid.
02:51:47 <kmc> lexande: hmm, it depends on what you mean by "simulation"
02:51:47 <zzo38> Still it can be a metaphor when some people draw the picture (which is a representation, as inaccurate as others); it is not the kind of metaphor I prefer however.
02:51:54 <Bike> lexande: are you sure. have you even seen the box!
02:52:09 <lexande> Bike: does the cardboard box exist? if so then i'm sure
02:52:11 <Bike> it's pretty nice. filled with books. books i like, so objectively good
02:52:29 <Bike> you're that sure huh
02:52:30 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:52:43 <prooftechnique> The Weak Axiom of the Cardboard Box says it might be consistent in a certain neighborhood of the box.
02:52:56 <prooftechnique> The Axiom of the Weak Cardboard Box says that the box might fall apart under stress.
02:52:57 <Bike> in which topology
02:53:04 <oerjan> prooftechnique: http://lesswrong.com/lw/qk/
02:53:23 <kmc> lexande: if I take a red pill and trip balls and emerge naked from a pod of alien goo, I'll probably conclude that I was in a simulation before, but maybe aliens are just tricking me, but if their trick is sufficiently advanced then maybe it counts as a simulation too
02:53:47 <Bike> i suppose i could have said "why is 'X theory is consistent' a statement you make about places" directly but i like boxes
02:54:03 <zzo38> What is the simulation in, then?
02:54:24 <lexande> kmc: how do you decide whether pre or post red pill is the simulation?
02:54:32 <lexande> and who is emerging from the pod
02:55:09 <kmc> valid questions too
02:55:13 <lexande> but anyway i'm specifically considering the statement that the whole universe is more or less how it looks except it's a simulation inside a larger universe
02:55:16 <kmc> "I" is a leaky abstraction
02:55:33 <lexande> and it seems like no evidence could convince me of that for the same reason none could convince me of god
02:55:38 <kmc> yeah, maybe
02:55:38 <Bike> which is good, because it allows some p. cool exploits
02:55:41 <kmc> I will think about that more
02:55:54 <lexande> and yet it seems odd to assign that statement extremely small probability
02:56:07 <lexande> given the arguments about how the universe is probably a simulation, etc
02:56:16 <Bike> oh, hey, i read a nice paper about this once, let me see if i can find it again
02:56:30 <zzo38> I don't think the universe is a simulation, although I cannot discard that hypothesis.
02:56:33 <Bike> people write papers about brains in vats all the time though :/
02:56:34 <lexande> so i think i have to say that "the universe is a simulation" is not a meaningful statement, since only things in the universe "are"
02:56:44 <elliott> kmc: I think the problem is that "naive set theory" refers to something within this universe.
02:56:46 <zzo38> What is universe in, anyways?
02:56:53 <elliott> if you assume mathematics can vary over universes then "naive set theory" as a concept is local to this one
02:57:14 <Bike> here it is, drevil.pdf
02:57:24 <lexande> zzo38: what evidence might cause you to increase or decrease your confidence in that hypothesis?
02:57:27 <Bike> naive set theory is local to this box
02:57:48 <prooftechnique> Bike: So the Axioms of the Cardboard Box are consistent
02:57:52 <zzo38> I assume mathematics is fixed and cannot vary over universes. However, if a mathematical theory is inconsistent (i.e. all well-formed statements are theorems) then it isn't a Mathematical Truth.
02:57:55 <kmc> we should find some actual space aliens and ask them what their mathematics is like
02:57:56 <lexande> how do you compare the probability of the universe being a simulation with the probability of in-universe aliens trolling you
02:58:02 <Bike> "Defeating Dr. Evil with self-locating belief", if anyone's interested.
02:58:04 <lexande> zzo38: you ever dream maths?
02:58:19 <lexande> when i dream maths it's all wrong
02:58:28 <Bike> kmc: i have a fantasy of running some AI simulations and seeing what they can come up with under various developmental schemes.
02:58:34 <zzo38> Yes I sometimes to dream about mathematical things
02:58:38 <lexande> things feel like proofs that certainly are not proofs
02:58:57 <lexande> which i find deeply disconcerting
02:59:16 <Bike> Dr Evil is about, uh, "Dr. Evil learns that a duplicate of Dr. Evil has been created. Upon learning this, how seriously should he take the hypothesis that he himself is that duplicate?"
02:59:18 <kmc> i had a dream where I discovered a security flaw in a real software system and it turned out to be real
02:59:29 <zzo38> And I notice that some of the "illogical" things in my dreaming are actually logical if you use the wrong kind of logic.
02:59:47 <Bike> wrong kind, huh.
02:59:52 <lexande> the reasoning in my dreams is consistently nonsense
02:59:54 <zzo38> kmc: I think something similar may have happened to me, but I am unsure.
03:00:01 <lexande> and with that, i'm going to take a nap
03:00:09 <zzo38> Yes the reasoning is sometimes nonsense.
03:00:09 <kmc> enjoy, lexande
03:00:21 <Bike> prooftechnique: well, one of them is being tortured.
03:00:25 <kmc> prooftechnique: one and then the other
03:00:30 <Bike> also man i'm glad i'm not a mathematician because i would not fit in
03:00:42 <zzo38> However I am distinguishing between logic (which is mathematics) and reasoning (which is informal thinking, and should be logical).
03:01:13 <prooftechnique> Which, as I understand it, is what most people do, just not about math
03:01:29 <Bike> yeah, i do that about parts of china and caterpillar legs.
03:01:39 <zzo38> By "wrong kind of logic", I mean for example linear logic where classical logic would be a better model in real situations, and vice versa, and other similar kind of things too.
03:01:43 -!- nisstyre has quit (Disconnected by services).
03:01:59 -!- nisstyre has joined.
03:02:23 <prooftechnique> If everyone turned all their nervous energy to some light mathematics, there'd be some neat stuff to show for it :D
03:02:50 <Bike> three billion proofs of the parallel postulate from the other axioms
03:14:02 <zzo38> An example of something that doesn't follow ordinary logic, but may be logical in other kinds of logic, in my dreams, may be the one where I had the belief that I (as my character in the dream) had never been there but that I (as myself) had been to that place before, and these beliefs could not be combined in my reasoning. (As it turns out, the second belief is also untrue, but I believed it while I was asleep.)
03:14:39 -!- Oj742 has joined.
03:15:16 <zzo38> Despite being strange (and clearly incorrect), it still appears perfectly logical to me, just using the "wrong kind of logic".
03:19:48 <zzo38> Do you have dreams like that too?
03:20:40 <Bike> why do you think math "does have to be the same [in all universes]", i'm curious
03:21:02 <Bike> i mostly dream about being very afraid
03:22:34 <zzo38> Because mathematics is the *real* reality.
03:22:43 <Bike> why do you think that?
03:22:46 <zzo38> Bike: Very afraid? If anything in particular?
03:23:04 <Bike> the things i'm afraid of aren't very constant between dreams, no
03:23:31 <zzo38> But what are they for instance? Do you know? Or is just being afraid in general?
03:23:45 * Bike looks at constant
03:24:25 <Bike> zzo38: one time, it was a virtual reality character, an imperial japanese soldier who had strapped himself with explosives. for example.
03:24:51 <Bike> another time it was the concept of dreaming. another time it was a big thing that looked like a displacer beast made of half-cooked meat
03:25:46 <zzo38> When I am dreaming of being afraid of something (which isn't common), it is almost always other people trying to push me or rescue me or something, it seems.
03:26:54 <oerjan> prooftechnique: also, http://qntm.org/responsibility :)
03:27:50 <prooftechnique> oerjan: https://sites.google.com/site/asenselessconversation/
03:28:51 <prooftechnique> oerjan: Also, did you hear about Google/NASA's quantum computer?
03:29:28 <oerjan> um did they buy one of those d-wave things that are _possibly_ sort of qc but not the "real" thing
03:30:20 <oerjan> (aaronson at shtetl-optimized likes to criticize them)
03:31:44 <oerjan> iirc from his last post about it, they cannot do "real" quantum algorithms and the evidence that what they can do is hard with classical computers is increasingly weak
03:55:11 <Sgeo> kmc: should I comment on my Rust thoughts elsewhere?
03:55:28 <Bike> perhaps you could use the rust channel
03:56:08 <Sgeo> I could bring it up in the Rust channe;
03:58:11 <Sgeo> I feel awkward being on the Mozilla IRC network while being a Chrome user
03:58:29 <Bike> it's in your user-agent, they can deal!
03:59:04 <zzo38> Disable VERSION then.
04:05:14 <Sgeo> kmc: fwiw, a thing I do think I like about Rust is its do syntax. As readable as Ruby, without an actual physical distinction, just syntactic sugar
04:37:59 <kmc> 'for' used to be similarly superficial sugar
04:38:14 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:38:15 <kmc> for a call with a lambda
04:38:16 <kmc> but it didn't work out so well, so now it's sugar for calling .next() repeatedly
04:38:40 <kmc> not such a big deal to consumers, but implementing an object with a .next() method is a lot more work than implementing a function that takes a function
04:38:58 <kmc> (the reasons for switching were composability and performance, I think)
04:39:06 <zzo38> I often don't like to knock out opponent's active pokemon cards.
04:39:13 <kmc> C++ lambdas can do something Rust lambdas can't which is inline into the function they're passed to
04:40:00 <kmc> in C++ you can do void f(std::function<void ()> g) but you can *also* do template <typename G> void f(G g) and the latter will enable such optimizations
04:40:27 <kmc> with Rust if you want the latter you need to define and implement a trait
04:41:06 <kmc> Sgeo: I dunno, if you have specific questions or suggestions you could take them to #rust on irc.mozilla.org
04:42:35 <Sgeo> Already did, someone commented on my mentioning the restriction, but not my comment about how it affects macros
04:42:52 <kmc> you could press on that point?
04:42:55 <kmc> i thought it was an interesting point
04:43:14 <Sgeo> I don't know how to do that without being rude
04:44:04 -!- ^v has joined.
04:46:47 <quintopia> i give this article an eight of ten. most enlightening. http://krazydad.com/tutorials/makecolors.php
04:47:31 <oerjan> prooftechnique: reading your senseless conversation link now, i think i guessed pretty quickly where this is going...
04:53:29 <Sgeo> kmc: are you in the chat?
04:53:50 <kmc> not paying attention atm
04:57:47 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_16/pokemon_card_never_switch.png As it turns out both of us had the same active pokemon card during the entire duel, never shifting or getting knocked out. (I knocked out their bench pokemon cards though; the AI is really bad.)
05:04:00 <quintopia> oerjan: i am amused by the idea of hofstadter administrating the test tho :D
05:07:59 <oklopol> zzo38: the symbols look like a mess, how can you read that?
05:08:50 -!- augur has joined.
05:08:55 <zzo38> oklopol: I can read it, I can tell you its meaning: Side card, Active pokemon card, Number of cards remaining in draw pile.
05:09:18 <oklopol> i could read up to side card
05:09:58 <zzo38> Well, now you know the rest too. Yes the kanji is in a small resolution that is hard to read, but I know what they mean in this context anyways.
05:11:58 <zzo38> But that is what it means in this context.
05:13:49 <zzo38> Do you play Pokemon card? It would be more understandable to someone who does.
05:16:21 <zzo38> What games can you play in Japanese? Shogi? Mahjong?
05:16:55 <oklopol> no i mean i play the language itself
05:17:02 <oklopol> in the sense of pretending to learn it
05:17:21 <oklopol> well i've played some mahjong obviously
05:17:29 <zzo38> Pretending to learn it?
05:17:45 <zzo38> Is it Japanese mahjong? Do you know Washizu mahjong?
05:18:41 <oklopol> i just know the mahjong computer game, it's a kind of solitaire
05:18:50 <oklopol> you have to remove pairs until the heap runs out
05:19:19 <zzo38> Yes, mahjong solitaire, I know that one, but that isn't the real mahjong game, it is just the mahjong solitaire, using the same tiles
05:19:53 <zzo38> The true mahjong game is 4 players game.
05:19:55 <oklopol> what's the actual mahjong like
05:20:12 <oklopol> there's like four winds and stuff
05:20:36 <oklopol> and like a great wall made from the pieces maybe_
05:20:55 <zzo38> Yes, usually there is. (Sometimes a bag is used instead.)
05:21:09 <zzo38> There is many different variants, such as Chinese game, Japanese game, etc.
05:21:44 <oklopol> dunno which one was in the big book of random games i read once
05:22:25 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-machine okey doke
05:30:57 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan: i am amused by the idea of hofstadter administrating the test tho :D <-- oh, i didn't notice the first name coincidence.
05:31:38 <quintopia> coincidence? i'd guess intentional. it's not like Zongker is much of a computational philosopher
05:46:21 <augur> surely you know the answer to my question
05:46:45 <oerjan> hide the finnish grammars!
05:46:49 <augur> how can we probe a formal language for word-word interactions without knowing the grammar or the class of grammars involved?
05:47:48 <oklopol> well that's easy but you don't know enough flexo-flamigold theory to understand it so no can do
05:48:16 <Bike> probe like, how? temperature?
05:48:32 <augur> Bike: yes, temperature
05:54:09 <FireFly> oklopol: it's more-or-less like canasta, if you've played that
06:01:00 <oklopol> but kanasta means "from a chicken" in finnish
06:05:07 -!- prooftechnique has quit.
06:17:07 <zzo38> Yes, it is somewhat like canasta and other rummy games.
06:17:27 <zzo38> Although there are actually many significant differences.
06:20:44 <zzo38> I made up a new esolang http://esolangs.org/wiki/B-tapemark
06:28:03 -!- Oj742 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:37:35 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
07:03:17 -!- Ghoul_ has joined.
07:20:45 -!- ^v has joined.
07:24:54 -!- ^v has quit (Client Quit).
07:25:24 -!- ^v has joined.
07:33:23 <shachaf> Bike: so imo the "finite observations" business is a sensible way to understnd continuity
07:35:36 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:42:29 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif).
07:54:48 <lexande> oerjan: in re http://lesswrong.com/lw/qk/ , https://twitter.com/HardSciFiMovies/status/396699827414646784
07:54:58 <lexande> (though i realise that's kind of missing the point)
07:56:18 <kmc> that was a plot point in the movie also
07:57:00 <oerjan> lexande: that's based on the Matrix movies though (duh), not yudkowsky
07:57:32 <kmc> should i read more lesswrong sci fi
07:57:35 <kmc> it seems p. interesting
07:57:56 <lexande> the only yudkowsky sci fi i know about is this and the one with the babyeaters and superhappies and hpmor
08:00:12 <lexande> "If you have a sexual fetish for people who have a fetish for recursion, and they have a fetish for people with a fetish for recursion, the two of you have a fetish for each other via Lob's Theorem."
08:01:34 <lexande> kmc: i haven't seen any other fiction on lesswrong than those yudkowksy things but i haven't looked
08:04:34 <shachaf> oerjan: where should i eat pizza if i visit .no
08:05:25 <oerjan> the latest HardSciFiMovies happens in a world close to you
08:05:53 <oerjan> shachaf: i see you think i have taste
08:06:08 <oerjan> alternative answer: you can't afford norwegian food anyhow.
08:06:53 <shachaf> i hear good norwegian pizza costs $30 or something?
08:08:40 <oerjan> i can tell you the two biggest pizza chains i know of, but i cannot remember if they're considered _good_: peppe'?s pizza and dolly dimple's
08:09:18 <oerjan> (actually dolly's has a bit unusual cheese mix)
08:09:40 <oerjan> also norwegians have lousy taste in food in general.
08:10:30 <oerjan> by which i mean, i'm not very discerning.
08:10:32 <kmc> lexande: I support research into further applications of modal logic in this domain
08:12:03 <oerjan> oh and i should mention Egon for old times sake, and because i recall at least one person praising their pizza.
08:13:32 <shachaf> oerjan: is one of them on the other side of the street from the royal palace
08:14:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i have no idea what's there, i don't live in Oslo.
08:14:50 <kmc> i hear everything in scandinavia costs at least $30
08:14:54 <shachaf> i'll have to send lexande on a pizza mission for me
08:16:05 <oerjan> "the other side of the street from the royal palace" doesn't really make sense, the palace is in the middle of a park.
08:17:11 <lexande> shachaf: yeah i suspect you will just have to go hungry the whole time you are in norway
08:17:28 <lexande> oh, i guess you have a real job, so maybe not
08:18:09 <shachaf> I'll probably be in .eu early next year for work. But maybe not .no.
08:21:01 <oerjan> shachaf: took a stroll on streetview down from the castle, hit Egon: https://maps.google.no/maps?q=slottsplassen,+Oslo&hl=no&ll=59.914042,10.738304&spn=0.000003,0.00206&sll=63.409649,10.364351&sspn=0.359599,1.054687&t=h&hq=slottsplassen,&hnear=Oslo&z=19&layer=c&cbll=59.914042,10.737794&panoid=TZqdkmjMXg09K1O52clPeA&cbp=12,26.73,,0,-7.72
08:23:18 <shachaf> oerjan: what about Peppes Pizza - Stortingsgaten
08:26:48 <oerjan> well i looked down Karl Johans gate which is the main street
08:27:03 <FireFly> Pizza in Oslo? Sounds expensive
08:27:18 <oerjan> well there's a peppes in both streets anyhow
08:29:28 <oerjan> well there you go https://maps.google.no/maps?q=Peppes+Pizza+-+Stortingsgaten,+Stortingsgata,+Oslo&hl=no&ll=59.912869,10.738964&spn=0.000086,0.065918&sll=59.912923,10.741856&sspn=0.000792,0.003082&oq=Pepp&t=h&hq=Peppes+Pizza+-+Stortingsgaten,+Stortingsgata,+Oslo&z=14&layer=c&cbll=59.912987,10.738613&panoid=0JExO66m127U5RdZx3MyPA&cbp=12,205.42,,1,17.44
08:31:08 <oerjan> the one in Karl Johans gate is much further down
08:32:29 <olsner> are there loads of peppes pizza places in oslo? if not I might've eaten at that one
08:33:11 <olsner> shachaf: not really... I guess it was ok?
08:35:19 <oerjan> anyway just give up all your money and eat at maaemoe hth
08:35:20 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
08:35:42 <oerjan> wait that was one e too much
08:35:58 <oerjan> (i doubt they have pizza)
08:37:51 <oerjan> (do i need to mention i've never eaten there?)
08:47:51 <kmc> shachaf: you know how JavaScript supports bitwise "32-bit integer operations" on its sole numeric type of 64-bit floats?
08:48:05 <kmc> well I learned today that this is actually essential to Emscripten performance
08:48:23 <kmc> it outputs code like «var x = f()|0; var y = g()|0; return (x+y)|0;»
08:48:35 <shachaf> That's the asm.js thing too, right?
08:48:36 <kmc> which acts as a hint to the JIT that it should compile this as 32-bit integer code
08:48:48 <kmc> right, the big win of asm.js is that you can do this interprocedurally too
09:12:51 -!- FreeFull has quit.
09:17:41 -!- Bike has joined.
09:24:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
09:25:35 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:38:49 -!- aloril_ has joined.
09:57:33 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
10:10:26 -!- Bike has joined.
10:22:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
10:56:47 -!- Taneb has joined.
10:57:06 <Taneb> In two years this channel has turned me from loving python to hating it
10:57:34 <Taneb> And now I am forced to use it
11:00:18 <Taneb> Was it two years? Or was it three? Or even more?
11:00:35 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm wondering how my younger self tolerated it
11:01:04 <mroman_> and you hate it because...?
11:01:12 <Taneb> mroman_: it's scary and aaaah
11:01:29 <mroman_> It's got numbers, classes and stuff
11:01:43 <kmc> "a type system"
11:01:44 <mroman_> except static type checking
11:01:55 <Taneb> Oh yeah, and static type checking
11:01:57 <mroman_> I fucking started to hate every language with no perfect type checking
11:01:58 <kmc> this car has everything except seatbelts or airbags, what's the problem
11:02:12 <mroman_> I spent 3 hours debugging memory corruption bug
11:02:25 <mroman_> until I noticed I passed something else to a gtk callback as userdata as I thought
11:02:29 <kmc> python is way too boring for me to have love or hate emotions about it
11:02:33 <mroman_> I passed a data struct and not a widget
11:02:41 <mroman_> and gtk kept corrupting my structs :)
11:02:49 <elliott> mroman_: you can do that bug in haskell too
11:03:00 <mroman_> Then I guess I fucking hate haskell too
11:03:11 <Taneb> Maybe you just hate GTK
11:03:17 <mroman_> elliott: Shouln't there be type safe callbacks?
11:03:25 <Taneb> I actually quite like C
11:03:30 <lexande> kmc: i ride in cars without seatbelts and airbags, don't you?
11:03:50 <kmc> not very often
11:03:56 <kmc> i don't ride in cars very often at all
11:03:59 <kmc> but this week yes
11:04:09 <lexande> i think most of the cars i ride in probably lack seatbelts and airbags
11:04:23 <elliott> > fromDyn (toDyn (123 :: Int)) :: Double
11:04:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Double'
11:04:36 <mroman_> Just keep in mind that every airbag has an electric-fuse
11:04:40 <elliott> > fromDyn (toDyn (123 :: Int)) :: Maybe Double
11:04:42 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe GHC.Types.Double'
11:04:45 <lexande> i guess most of the cars i hitchhiked in had seatbelts and airbags, which probably shifted the ratio back that way
11:04:47 <mroman_> and you don't know if it still works until you try it out .
11:04:54 <kmc> toyota recalled 870,000 cars because of spiders living in the airbags
11:05:16 <kmc> i have been riding in taxis this week because a 4km taxi ride in korea is like $5
11:05:17 <lexande> whether hitchhiking is safer than a third world taxi seems unclear
11:05:30 <lexande> but the seoul metro is so shiny
11:05:36 <kmc> yeah but we're not in seoul
11:05:39 <kmc> we're out in suwon
11:06:00 <Taneb> I've been getting buses mainly recently
11:06:05 <Taneb> Occasionally trains
11:06:26 <elliott> > fromDynamic (toDyn (123 :: Int)) :: Maybe Double
11:06:29 <kmc> i'll go to seoul on friday afternoon and also saturday afternoon through monday sometime
11:06:39 <Taneb> Buses are really scary when you think about it
11:07:23 <kmc> yes but how so
11:07:37 <Taneb> Because there are loads of people and no seatbelts
11:07:48 <Taneb> And busy roads and you're an easy target
11:08:00 <kmc> i think the theory is that seatbelts become less important the further you are from the front
11:08:07 <kmc> cause you won't go through the windshield
11:08:46 <kmc> i spent a lot of time on school buses and thought about this a lot and they basically told me it's fine cause you'll just hit the back of the seat in front of you
11:09:25 <Taneb> Also often you have to stand
11:09:46 <Taneb> And if the bus stops suddenly you fall over
11:10:38 <oerjan> afaiu they've made seat belts mandatory in school buses in norway now.
11:11:06 <mroman_> of course, the cool kids don't use them
11:11:34 <kmc> no the cool kids are too cool for school
11:11:57 <oerjan> i vaguely think the driver may be legally mandated to check that they do.
11:12:13 <kmc> driver carries less than $20
11:12:17 <oerjan> (that's certainly the case for children in private cars)
11:14:29 <oerjan> hm it says on this page that it's still legal to stand
11:16:34 <mroman_> If it were illegal to stand in busses
11:16:46 <mroman_> then they have to use much more busses :)
11:17:03 <mroman_> the probably need double the busses they have now at rush hours
11:17:04 <oerjan> well this doesn't apply to adults anyway.
11:17:23 <mroman_> And only for school buses?
11:17:42 -!- yorick has joined.
11:17:56 <mroman_> the problem is, that the driver can't really ensure that everyone uses the seatbelt
11:18:18 <mroman_> "I'm not driving until everyone uses his seatbelt!"
11:18:39 <oerjan> sounds like a way to become popular
11:18:48 <kmc> the drivers get assaulted by passengers often enough as it is
11:19:01 <kmc> in both NYC and SF there are signs on every bus/train reminding you that it's illegal to beat up the driver
11:19:37 <oerjan> there was this bus mini-massacre in norway recently
11:20:34 <oerjan> mini because there were only about 3 people in the bus, but they were all killed
11:21:30 <mroman_> Sounds like it's not a dream job to be busdriver in the US
11:21:42 <kmc> i don't think so, no
11:21:50 <kmc> probably not anywhere, really
11:22:13 <kmc> except that these days "dream job" means like "a job, where you get health care"
11:22:25 <kmc> and bus drivers are often unionized and make decent money and benefits and get a pension etc
11:22:32 <mroman_> Your country is messed up ;)
11:22:32 <kmc> so that puts them ahead of most employed people even
11:23:15 <kmc> the latest on that is, the website they set up for the new healthcare law is buggy and this proves that universal health care is a bad idea
11:23:16 <Taneb> I got annoyed at a bus driver recently because he insisted that the bus didn't go anywhere near Heslington East when it terminated at the Heslington East Interchange (which is at Heslington East)
11:23:49 <Taneb> (Heslington East is where my uni's CS department is)
11:23:56 <Taneb> (and WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW)
11:25:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I'm going now).
11:25:46 <kmc> mroman_: it isn't, clearly, but the people fighting reform don't really care about facts or logic
11:26:09 <kmc> the sad fact is, there's a small number of very rich americans who honestly would rather let thousands of people die every year than pay slightly higher taxes
11:26:16 <kmc> and they have enough money to fool enough people to get their way
11:27:08 <mroman_> Maybe you should think about establishing a real democracy ;)
11:27:19 <kmc> but this website thing... wow the government spent a bunch of money on something that doesn't work well? STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES
11:27:29 <kmc> happens every day but it's usually something republicans like, such as military spending
11:27:45 <mroman_> Are republicans anti-military?
11:28:01 <kmc> i mean both parties are very much pro-military
11:28:10 <kmc> republicans tend to be slightly more in favor of actually fighting wars
11:28:16 <kmc> they both love spending money on jet planes and whatever
11:28:25 <mroman_> And the republicans are the ones with more money?
11:28:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
11:29:00 <kmc> yes they're the party of rich people who don't want to pay taxes
11:29:09 <mroman_> they were founded to stop slavery
11:29:29 <kmc> rich people who don't want to pay taxes, who convince a lot of ignorant poor people to go along by leveraging various forms of bigotry
11:34:47 <mroman_> I don't really know anything about the US tax system
11:34:55 <mroman_> other than it's apparentely really messy and complicated
11:35:04 -!- Koen_ has joined.
11:35:32 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:35:41 -!- Koen_ has joined.
11:38:48 <fizzie> "For adult buses" sounds a bit dirty.
11:40:17 <fizzie> Also I just built a thing with ICC instead of GCC (also with Intel's BLAS instead of generic ATLAS, which is probably more relevant), and its runtime (for a test case) dropped from three and a half minutes to one minute, which was quite the speedup.
11:44:05 <mroman_> fizzie: They usually are a bit dirty.
11:45:15 <mroman_> It could even be a serial bus!
11:58:12 -!- carado has joined.
12:08:40 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
12:20:21 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:24:12 <kmc> fizzie: nice
12:25:13 -!- carado has joined.
12:26:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
12:33:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:50:50 <lexande> kmc: the metro totally goes to suwon but i guess there are only a couple stations there
12:52:38 <lexande> one note about the safety of city busses with lots of people standing is that such busses tend to be slow as balls
12:53:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:53:33 <lexande> people may fall over in a sudden stop but nothing too traumatic
12:55:43 <kmc> lexande: yeah i think we will take the metro to seoul and back
12:55:54 <kmc> though we took a cab here from ICN
12:55:56 <lexande> there are exceptions; riding the M60 across the triboro bridge is a little disconcerting in this respect. but generally in the developed world busses that spend a significant amount of time at high speeds (primarily commuter express and intercity coaches) aren't allowed standees.
12:55:57 <kmc> but i wasn't paying
12:56:47 <lexande> a cab from ICN to anywhere sounds cringeworthy; i guess it's the land of cheap cabs but does that really mean they refrain from milking airport passengers?
12:57:52 <lexande> also what, i tried to do google maps directions in korea and transit is the only option
12:58:18 <kmc> it was about $80
13:00:48 -!- FreeFull has joined.
13:02:02 <kmc> lexande: yeah what's with that? re gmaps
13:03:27 <lexande> i don't know. it took them a long time to get road data in south korea at all. i think they may have actually had it in north korea first (because mapmaker was allowed in north korea)
13:03:37 <kmc> $80 doesn't seem so bad to go 60km
13:04:36 <kmc> actually more than 60km because I'm pretty sure we took the north bridge
13:04:39 <kmc> we went past GMP on the way
13:06:18 <lexande> i've had a 50km taxi ride for like $18 in china, and an 80km ride for like $3 in Botswana (though i may have actually been hitchhiking then, what is a taxi really)
13:06:40 <kmc> albania: where every car is a taxi and also a 90s mercedes
13:06:58 <kmc> i took a cab from JFK to Exchange Place once, by myself
13:07:04 <kmc> THAT was a ridiculous thing to do
13:07:36 <kmc> but again, not my money, plus I had very little idea how to get around the area at the time
13:07:41 <kmc> that was like $120
13:07:56 <lexande> oh yeah we paid €26 or whatever for that 50km taxi ride from Shkoder to Bar
13:08:18 <kmc> in a mixture of EUR and ALL yes
13:12:55 <lexande> i think we paid like $150 for a 250km taxi ride from El Calafate to Rio Turbio
13:17:49 <lexande> i paid something under $35 for a 450km taxi ride from Nuweiba to Cairo
13:23:13 <lexande> though he dropped me out in Heliopolis or some shit and i had to pay almost $10 more for a taxi into the city centre
13:25:35 <int-e> is there a rush-hour based esolang, I wonder ...
13:27:49 <lexande> also https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/390188941749395456
13:35:51 <fizzie> I think we once took a taxi from Mikkeli to Helsinki back when I was a small child, and the family car broke down, and it was late, and there was some reason or another that we absolutely had to get back the same day.
13:36:14 <fizzie> (That's about 230 km.)
13:37:41 <kmc> today's finding: most programs do not work well if you set all of the registers to 0 after every instruction
13:37:46 <kmc> but i have one that does!
13:40:11 * kmc writes sizeof(uint64_t) and feels silly
13:50:44 -!- nooodl has joined.
14:03:49 -!- Bike has joined.
14:22:58 -!- boily has joined.
14:23:05 -!- metasepia has joined.
14:32:55 -!- mrhmouse has joined.
14:37:39 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:08:29 <kmc> i wonder if x86 is turing complete with only instructions «mov dword [dest], imm» and «jmp [src]» but allowing self-modifying of those operands
15:08:55 <Jafet> Can you flush icaches with those
15:09:15 <kmc> you don't need to flush the icache to do self-modifying code on x86
15:09:27 <boily> iianm, that would mean some form of memory mapping, no?
15:09:56 <kmc> i dunno why people complain so much about x86, the assembly language is so nice and high level
15:09:59 * kmc only mostly trolling
15:10:11 <kmc> boily: what do you mean
15:10:14 <Jafet> I wonder how much x86 legacy involves local self-modifying code
15:11:02 <boily> kmc: now that I think about what I thought, I don't think I was thinking what I meant to.
15:12:29 <Jafet> Can you think something other than the thing you thought to think?
15:13:37 <mrhmouse> you guys, it is way too early here for this
15:13:48 <int-e> kmc: oh there's a bit of self-modifying code here and there; e.g. the first bresenham implementation I encountered had a point where an inc was patched to a dec if the lines sloped upwards, things like that.
15:16:11 <kmc> `run ls bin | paste
15:16:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6704
15:16:25 <Jafet> Well, x86 is the (?) architecture that decodes every single byte offset in parallel because it can't know in advance where instructions start
15:17:13 <kmc> that would be an implementation detail
15:17:39 <kmc> but also, I haven't heard about that
15:17:49 <kmc> and would like to know more
15:18:08 <kmc> `paste bin/welcome
15:18:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/welcome
15:18:16 <boily> @localtime mrhmouse
15:18:34 <kmc> `paste wisdom/welcome
15:18:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom/welcome
15:18:40 <kmc> `run ls wisdom | paste
15:18:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22595
15:19:11 <kmc> `run echo wisdom/* | paste
15:19:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13718
15:19:33 <boily> int-e: what have you done to that poor lambdabot?
15:19:43 <kmc> `? wercome
15:19:45 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
15:21:04 <int-e> boily: not lambdabot's fault that mrhmouse doesn't answer CTCP time requests
15:21:19 <mrhmouse> I answered, just not in any valid format
15:21:31 <int-e> you know that's what I meant ;)
15:21:53 <mrhmouse> what format does lambdabot expect?
15:22:20 <mrhmouse> also, is it okay if I bring my own bot into the channel / is there a rule list I can read someplace?
15:22:41 <boily> oh! another bot! ☺
15:22:56 <mrhmouse> boily: Don't get excited, it's not an interesting one :)
15:23:27 <boily> not a problem. as long as it answers to ping, echo, botsnacks and does something unique, everything's fine.
15:24:02 <mrhmouse> I only have two: a chatterbot along the lines of fungot and one that does nothing by default but can load functionality from code on the web
15:24:02 <fungot> mrhmouse: that is the only moving thing was the eye of the black bird.
15:24:06 <Jafet> It seems that I misread; agner fog only suspects that intel chips try decoding in parallel.
15:24:49 <mrhmouse> boily: I'm assuming ping is an actual ping, but what should it answer when prompted with echo or botsnacks?
15:25:14 <mrhmouse> Okay, so some of our bots don't respond to ping already.
15:25:55 <int-e> so ... CTCP, it expects a NOTICE (not PRIVMSG), starting with \001 (ASCII 1), followed by "TIME <whatever>", followed by another \001
15:25:58 <boily> and uhm... I... didn't implement the Botsnack Munching Behaviour Module for Bots on Metasepia yet.
15:26:14 <kmc> maximal munch
15:26:16 <int-e> I don't think that it really cares about the format of the <whatever> part.
15:26:21 <Jafet> That's not a ping, is it? That's a privmsg containing the text "ping".
15:26:33 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:27:02 <fungot> quintopia: i've seen cases where chatzilla seems to send messages without getting autoreplies. doctors seem to always be of the egyptian god isis or what was it
15:27:19 <mrhmouse> I think fungot only answers to its name
15:27:19 <fungot> mrhmouse: where is a lot of freedom with that big list of them in .bashrc will prevent it from being " a property which a closed topological space exhibits".
15:27:46 <boily> mrhmouse: that, and some obscure non-proto-indo-european spells.
15:28:20 <Jafet> I should make my shell rc topologically closed.
15:28:31 <quintopia> i'm not used to having to address botsnacks to a particular bot
15:29:28 <kmc> `run printf 'Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)' > wisdom/wlcom
15:31:52 <kmc> it's either that or set up a CNAME for irc.dal.net
15:32:32 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:35:54 -!- conehead has joined.
15:36:25 * kmc hugs lexande
15:36:30 -!- conehead has quit (Client Quit).
15:37:18 <kmc> fungot: got any cool .bashrc tricks?
15:37:18 <fungot> kmc: btw, i'd like to start with that +2 function you mentioned earlier? think it's worth having, but once i picked up the memory to be turing complete
15:37:46 <kmc> fungot: are you a self-aware makefile
15:37:46 <fungot> kmc: they could be scattered throughout the signals, conditions, arithmetic, enums, records, etc. but i can't argue with the library access actually, you end up thinking in c.
15:37:48 -!- conehead has joined.
15:38:07 <kmc> fungot: that shit rots your brain
15:38:08 <fungot> kmc: i can't remember the details now, heh.
15:38:15 <kmc> fungot: i rest my case.
15:38:15 <fungot> kmc: one would imagine so, yes. but defining a variable ' define'
15:38:44 <int-e> fungot: "I would be surprised if anyone went to all of the effort that this researcher suggests."
15:38:45 <fungot> int-e: in a way similar to how monads can be done
15:38:47 <HackEgo> conehead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:39:02 <conehead> I miss my rainbow mixed-case welcome ):
15:39:13 <kmc> `run WeLcOme | rainwords
15:39:15 <HackEgo> bash: WeLcOme: command not found
15:39:19 <kmc> `run ? WeLcOme | rainwords
15:39:22 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:39:41 <Jafet> `run WeLcOmE conehead | rainwords
15:39:44 <HackEgo> CoNeHeAd: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:40:10 <kmc> `run perl -e "print '~' x 50" | rainbow
15:40:12 <HackEgo> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
15:40:18 <ion> The Onion? The body of a spy is found in a padlocked sports bag in his apartment. The investigating police: he probably died by accident on his own. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24927078
15:40:43 <kmc> that's some kinky shit
15:41:07 <int-e> that case is old and sort of famous; the coroner? tried to zip himself up in a bag and decided it couldn't be done.
15:41:28 <int-e> but indeed it's a clear-cut case of suicide. nobody expected anything else.
15:42:02 <mrhmouse> kmc: what stops people from sending harmful commands to HackEgo?
15:42:12 <kmc> mrhmouse: define 'harmful'
15:42:39 <int-e> I just wonder what theory they came up with ... maybe a self-destructing lego mindstorm robot that locked the bag.
15:42:41 <kmc> mrhmouse: every command runs in a separate User Mode Linux system and the filesystem changes are merged with Mercurial (so can be reverted)
15:42:53 * boily throw a mint-condition, shrink-wrapped UML manual with garish covers and bad business analogies over at quintopia
15:43:16 <kmc> a business is like a burrito
15:43:31 <int-e> r[ead]m[ail] -r[eally]f[ast] /[search pattern matching anything]
15:43:41 <int-e> is that harmful enough?
15:44:01 <kmc> `run perl -e "print '~' x 100" | rainbow
15:44:03 <HackEgo> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
15:44:04 <ion> int-e: Remember --no-preserve-root on GNU systems.
15:44:34 <boily> `run python -c "print('eh?')"
15:44:49 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:18 <ion> /. would probably work.
15:45:22 <ion> on any system
15:45:36 <boily> hm. it eventually dies...
15:45:38 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:40 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:42 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:44 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:45:46 <boily> `run python -c "while True: pass"
15:46:27 <kmc> if False: yield
15:46:50 <kmc> that's fine
15:47:00 <kmc> just get a new kernel from wherever
15:47:04 <kmc> they're all pretty much the same
15:47:07 <mrhmouse> HackBot doesn't permission to delete that, I assume?
15:47:21 <kmc> anyway the 'kernel' from UML comes from The Outside
15:47:25 <mrhmouse> *have permission, my apologies
15:47:34 <int-e> `run bash -c ': ( ) { : | : ; } ; :'
15:48:05 <HackEgo> bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ bash: fork: retry: Resourc
15:48:07 <int-e> but it should still die with the virtual machine :)
15:48:40 <mrhmouse> Does the VM reboot itself automatically?
15:48:50 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
15:48:55 <kmc> mrhmouse: every command runs in a fresh VM instance
15:49:18 <boily> `run cat /proc/cpuinfo
15:49:20 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id: User Mode Linux \ model name: UML \ mode: skas \ host: Linux codu.org 2.6.32-5-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Tue Mar 8 00:01:30 UTC 2011 x86_64 \ bogomips: 632.01
15:49:20 <kmc> HackEgo is trapped in an endless cycle of reincarnation
15:49:54 <mrhmouse> Very nice indeed! I'll have to sandbox up my command bot like that before adding it to any public channel. Right now it just answers to me, anyways.
15:49:55 <Jafet> I want to checkout a past life
15:50:12 <kmc> `run echo 'const int main[] = { 14776, 3942977280, 247 };' > fb.c && gcc -o fb fb.c && ./fb
15:50:35 <kmc> mrhmouse: does it check that you're identified with services :3
15:50:50 <kmc> good to know
15:51:06 <Jafet> He's not identified with services
15:51:17 <mrhmouse> It's not on freenode, anyways :) Maybe I'll just add my chatterbot for now.
15:53:09 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:53:53 -!- Frooxius has joined.
15:53:57 -!- ruddy has joined.
15:54:11 <mrhmouse> Ah, here's the chatterbot now.
15:55:40 <boily> ruddy: what do you do?
15:55:40 <ruddy> I think it goes for most people that they're not inherently 'bad'
15:56:04 <boily> ruddy: can you say "fungot"?
15:56:04 <fungot> boily: oh well, really night now. i run drscheme on my 256mb box, but it
15:56:04 <ruddy> 1 gram of TNT equivalent is equal (defined, even, I think) to 1 kcal
15:56:30 <mrhmouse> ruddy is a bit different from fungot, and there isn't much chance you can get it to invoke fungot
15:56:31 <fungot> mrhmouse: sponsored by british taxpayers, of course)
15:56:31 <ruddy> SuperTipsyCam approves
15:56:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:56:59 <kmc> ruddy: sing me a song
15:57:03 <kmc> ruddy: are you real
15:57:03 <ruddy> You could look for failing video rental places.
15:57:08 <int-e> I forgot how hard to kill that : | : thing is ... now one reboot later :)
15:57:15 <kmc> ruddy: Blockbuster shut their last stores just recently
15:57:16 <ruddy> They cater to other tastes.
15:57:24 <kmc> ruddy: indeed (bankruptcy mostly)
15:57:24 <mrhmouse> ruddy: row, row, row your boat
15:57:40 <kmc> ruddy: a motherfucking boat?
15:57:40 <ruddy> that would be unfortunate to not have the ability to tell a story like I just did :(
15:57:50 <boily> ~echo `echo ruddy fungot
15:57:50 <fungot> boily: how about this?
15:57:50 <ruddy> sponsored by british taxpayers, of course)
15:58:29 <mrhmouse> the only chance you have is to get fungot to invoke ruddy, really
15:58:29 <fungot> mrhmouse: yeah, but i figured i can just do this all with a single
15:58:53 <mrhmouse> Also ruddy doesn't recognize its name when combined with punctuation :P
16:01:06 * kmc falls asleep
16:01:10 <mrhmouse> Even if you get fungot to invoke it, you'll have to get lucky with a response that includes a name.
16:01:10 <fungot> mrhmouse: but produces a function on-the-fly at startup. sorry, this is tedious. http://62.167.150.30/ acm100.c of
16:01:30 <mrhmouse> It stores placeholders instead of names when it logs things, and fills them out when responding
16:20:19 <mroman_> Infinte sized rubik's cube
16:20:32 <boily> how many dimensions?
16:20:49 <mroman_> like a regular rubik's cube
16:21:38 <mroman_> on a regular rubik's cube every side has 9 squares
16:22:01 <mroman_> now there are's an infinite amount of squares on each side
16:24:14 <mrhmouse> mroman_: I don't see where this is going
16:25:33 * boily prods mrhmouse with a calibrated 10' pole mad out of the finest maple and with a tapered end wrapped in a hand-knit woolen dampener
16:27:26 <boily> sorry. bad autocompletion.
16:27:33 * boily swings the pole over at mroman_
16:27:45 <mrhmouse> That's odd. ruddy doesn't seem to log /me commands...
16:27:45 <ruddy> probably just Bucket spouting some nonsense it was taught
16:28:03 <mrhmouse> No ruddy, you can't blame other bots
16:30:21 <mroman_> mrhmouse: An esolang based on said rubik cube
16:31:10 <mrhmouse> mroman_: what operations are there? you can't rotate it -- that's effectively shifting an infinite list to its end
16:31:15 <mroman_> instructions are commands on how to rotate stuff
16:32:33 <mroman_> e.g if you rotate the yellow side
16:32:48 <mroman_> then a row of orange squares are now there, where a row of green squares was
16:33:56 <mrhmouse> mroman_: So you're just defining transformations, then. Interesting...
16:34:45 <mroman_> and the data would be the squares
16:34:50 <mrhmouse> I'm assuming each square is then basically a cell (a la Brainfuck, but 2D), and you can now shuffle cells
16:35:08 <ion> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cartesianco/the-ex1-rapid-3d-printing-of-circuit-boards
16:35:09 <mrhmouse> So you would have to provide an offset for each rotation, from the center.
16:35:32 <mroman_> I'm thinking of viewing the cube from one side
16:35:47 <mroman_> and then it's just a 2D field
16:35:58 <mroman_> but you can rotate the whole cube itself too
16:36:13 <mroman_> to not confuse it with the "actual rotation" of stuff
16:36:38 <mrhmouse> And each view can be modified by rotating at different offsets in one of the four directions.
16:36:46 <mroman_> and you can switch between those
16:36:51 <mroman_> and then you can do stuff like uhm
16:37:08 <mroman_> if (0,0) == RedSquare then RotateLikeThis otherwise RotateLikeThat
16:37:45 <mroman_> where 0,0 is either the center or the upper left corner
16:37:49 -!- ^v has joined.
16:37:54 <mroman_> I'm not sure what be more convenient
16:37:57 <mrhmouse> You know what would be interesting?
16:38:25 <mrhmouse> If you ran the program and then printed a "window" of one of the views (obviously you can't print the whole view)
16:38:47 <mrhmouse> and then you ran that image through Piet
16:39:01 <mrhmouse> Though you may perhaps need more than six sides, then
16:39:35 <mroman_> The whole interesting part would be that the data is represented by squares :)
16:40:23 <boily> a para-meta-multi-dimensional rubikified langton ant on a piet framework of infinite proportions!
16:40:39 <mroman_> you don't need more than that
16:40:44 <mroman_> you'd only need two anyway
16:41:27 <mrhmouse> mroman_: I'm assuming you mean you would interpret data across runs of cells, as opposed to just one cell at a time
16:42:20 <mroman_> It's a machine with a Rubik Cube as a Storage Device
16:43:07 <mroman_> and on a regular rubik's cube there are
16:43:17 <mrhmouse> That's what I mean. You would be looking at the big picture as opposed to each cell individual. Initially I thought you intended for each cell to store some other value
16:43:29 <mroman_> 4.3 * 10^19 possible variations
16:43:33 <mrhmouse> since I compared them to Brainfuck cells, and you agreed
16:43:57 <mroman_> A "cell" can contain one of 6 values
16:46:07 <mroman_> of course there are restrictions on how you can move data around
16:46:14 <mroman_> since if you move data, other data moves as well
16:46:43 <mrhmouse> I thought a standard Rubik's Cube would have 6 sides * ( 6 values per cell ^ 9 cells per side ) => 60_466_176 possible states
16:48:02 <mroman_> Wikipedia says there are 32 quintillion possible arrangements
16:48:33 <mrhmouse> is that including rotations of the entire cube?
16:49:01 <fizzie> mrhmouse: If you wanted to allow all possible "settings", that would be 6^(6*9), not 6 * (6^9).
16:49:11 <fizzie> (Of course not all of those are legal arrangements.)
16:49:23 <mroman_> which is about 65 bits of Storage?
16:49:56 <oerjan> in particular, if you ignore rotations of the entire cube, the middle squares never move.
16:50:21 <mrhmouse> clearly it's still too early here for me to do any sort of thinking
16:50:25 <fizzie> Quite many of the 6^(6*9) states also don't have equal amounts of all colors.
16:50:49 <mrhmouse> fizzie: Good point, I didn't account for a limited set of colors
16:53:28 <quintopia> this is an infinite cube. any computation should be possible. remains to be proved, of course.
16:55:40 <oerjan> @tell elliott Darn spammer got past captcha again :(
17:01:07 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
17:01:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:10:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:10:28 -!- augur has joined.
17:11:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:14:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:16:02 <mrhmouse> mroman_: Have you thought of syntax for that esolang?
17:28:05 <mrhmouse> when you have a sketch, could you link me to it?
17:28:42 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:29:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
17:29:16 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:32:56 <mroman_> mrhmouse: http://codepad.org/mTwYvVAv
17:32:59 <mroman_> Probably something like that
17:33:18 <mroman_> esentially you have a "cell pointer" with x,y coordinate
17:33:31 <mroman_> which is part of the machine (so not stored on the rubik cube)
17:33:52 <mroman_> you can increment it, decrement it
17:33:58 <mroman_> or set it to a specific value
17:34:05 <mroman_> you can get the value of a square by {x,y}
17:35:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:46:08 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:48:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:51:59 -!- augur has joined.
17:56:53 <mrhmouse> so you're rotating single rows/columns?
17:57:18 <mrhmouse> or does a vertical rotation at offset 2 imply that all rows >= 2 are also rotated?
18:03:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:04:51 <mrhmouse> Also, you mention in your sketch that {x, y} is relative to the corners. I'm guessing that's a typo?
18:06:32 <fizzie> ion: Thanks again for that tip about infants. I just fed one to a carnivorous plant to quiet it down.
18:07:00 <boily> back from lunch, and no, I didn't eat any infants.
18:07:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:08:41 <mrhmouse> fizzie: stop making me want this game
18:09:59 -!- Bike has joined.
18:10:44 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:13:54 <mroman_> mrhmouse: single rows/columns, yes
18:14:10 <mroman_> but if you rotate column 0 upwards
18:14:20 <mroman_> it's the same thing as rotating every other row downwards
18:14:45 <mroman_> mrhmouse: Why is that a typo?
18:14:49 <mrhmouse> mroman_: No it isn't, you would have to also rotate the view for it to be the same
18:15:07 <mrhmouse> because it's an infinite cube, it doesn't have corners
18:15:44 <mroman_> doesn't that depend on how you view it?
18:15:49 <mroman_> there's an upper left corner
18:16:01 <mroman_> but it "extends" to infinity from there
18:16:16 <mrhmouse> so you only have positive offsets
18:16:17 <mroman_> i.e the buttom right corner is at (infinity,infinity)
18:17:19 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:17:47 <mroman_> which means there's no "center square"
18:17:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
18:17:53 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:17:56 <mroman_> you don't know it's position :)
18:19:26 <mroman_> you have actually an unbounded tape
18:19:34 <mroman_> i.e if you face the white side
18:19:48 <mroman_> you rotate the first row right it turns red
18:20:05 <mroman_> it boils down to brainfuck with 1 bit cells
18:21:05 <mroman_> so actually pretty boring :(
18:21:19 <mroman_> I hate how everything is just syntactic sugar for brainfuck
18:21:36 <myname> is brainfuck with 1 bit cells AND limited amount of cells still turing complete?
18:21:57 <myname> i hate how everything is just syntactic sugar for assembly
18:22:13 <mroman_> because limited amount of cells implies that it has not infinite storage
18:22:43 <mroman_> but an infinite sized rubik's cube has infinite storage
18:23:19 <myname> brainfuck with one cell with an infinitely large value should be complete
18:26:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:28:25 <oklopol> finite state machine + single counter
18:29:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:36:33 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:36:42 <oklopol> however, presumably two unlimited cells are turing complete
18:37:20 <mrhmouse> well, you need operations that make use of those cells
18:37:56 <oklopol> yeah but brainfuck with two cells
18:39:27 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:39:50 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
18:45:37 -!- carado has joined.
18:47:32 <ion> fizzie: :-) They also work for a number of other things than food, for instance projectiles.
18:47:52 <Taneb> I saw Thor 2 today
18:48:54 <mrhmouse> ion: can you use them as building material?
18:49:17 <ion> mrhmouse: I don’t remember if anyone has asked for building materials in the game.
18:50:11 -!- prooftechnique has joined.
18:50:35 <mrhmouse> Taneb: a friend of mine had a tongue ring put in without anesthetics. now she's thor 2
18:51:14 <mrhmouse> I told a terrible lie for the sake of a terrible pun
18:51:37 <Taneb> It was the best kind of terrible pun
18:51:44 <fizzie> ion: There was one "help these guys fix this treehouse" kind of thing, for which a "plank" worked.
18:51:52 <fizzie> ion: I have a feeling an infant would not have.
18:52:01 <ion> Yeah, it probably wouldn’t.
18:52:17 <fizzie> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/09/23 related
18:52:44 <fizzie> (You *can* create one, but it doesn't do anything.)
18:54:38 <boily> I don't understand the pun :(
18:55:08 <mrhmouse> boily: The word "sore", when pronounced with a sore tongue or lisp, sounds like "Thor"
18:56:10 <ruddy> Also, this is spinal tap
18:57:11 * boily applies the aforementioned egregious mapole on mrhmouse
18:59:35 <mrhmouse> is mapole an amalgam of maple and pole?
19:01:13 <boily> ~eval 10 * 12 * 25.4 / 1000
19:02:30 <boily> I could've frinked it, but it was a conversion from 10 foot → 3.048 metres.
19:03:50 <fizzie> More Scribblenauts: I just fixed global warming.
19:04:04 <mrhmouse> fizzie: did it involve infants?
19:04:09 <Taneb> MORE Scribblenauts?
19:04:15 <Taneb> So there's more than just Maxwell!?
19:04:16 <fizzie> No. Though in retrospect, I should've tried to make it so.
19:04:34 <mrhmouse> fizzie: please tell me you at least fixed global hunger with infants
19:04:40 <fizzie> Taneb: He's got all those brothers, and that evil twin.
19:04:49 <fizzie> mrhmouse: Nobody's asked me to fix global hunger yet.
19:05:01 <mrhmouse> well when they do, at least you now have a plan
19:05:06 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:05:30 <HackEgo> 381/1250 (exactly 0.3048) m^2 (area)
19:05:31 <Taneb> Global hunger seems a problem that a scribblenaut could solve pretty well
19:05:56 <HackEgo> Syntax error: <String>, line 1, near column 1 \ --help \ ^ \ 1 error(s) occurred during parsing.
19:09:21 <fizzie> I used to move around by adding wings to Maxwell, but now I just apply "flying fast" as adjectives.
19:10:04 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:15:29 -!- Bike has joined.
19:16:31 <mrhmouse> fizzie: how does Scribblenauts handle unknown words?
19:17:02 <fizzie> mrhmouse: "What do you mean, unknown words?"
19:17:33 <mrhmouse> for example, if you use the nonsense word "foobarbaz"
19:17:54 <fizzie> It pops up a dictionary list if you give it a word it doesn't recognize.
19:18:28 <fizzie> For "foobarbaz", it suggests footbag, ferbam, fleabag, flower box, flowerbed, foie gras, and four more pages of stuff.
19:19:02 <Bike> @tell shachaf no it's true you burnedm e good
19:19:06 <fizzie> (I just told it to create "nothing", and it made a black hole instead. Hm.)
19:19:55 <Taneb> A black hole is kind of like contagious nothingness, except for the fact that it really isn't
19:20:35 <boily> Bike: Lem, as in the Stanislav of the same name?
19:21:05 <boily> fizzie: can you gorge an infant like a goose, and then make foie gras out of it?
19:21:44 <boily> prooftechnique: a hacky sack.
19:22:14 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/pfhkQsa.gif
19:22:19 <prooftechnique> Curious what sort of object fleabag is in the game, too
19:22:26 <mrhmouse> arguably, a black hole is more like a contagious everything..
19:23:17 <fizzie> boily: Probably not quite.
19:23:25 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
19:24:07 <fizzie> A mermaid asked for some "gizmo" from above the surface, and I made a television, which promptly electrocuted us both.
19:24:27 <fizzie> Er. A "fleabag" is some kind of a building.
19:24:45 <Bike> well, did you win before you died
19:24:57 <fizzie> "A seedy, rundown hotel or other lodging place" -- I guess it's from that.
19:25:13 <fizzie> Now there's a seedy hotel at the bottom of the sea.
19:25:22 <mrhmouse> fizzie: please give her a black hole at the bottom of the sea
19:27:00 -!- prooftechnique has quit.
19:27:18 <boily> I miss the good old days of CRTs. those were the last electrified appliances that I could apply righteous and cathartic percussive maintenance onto.
19:27:21 <fizzie> Oh, I seem to in fact have won before I died.
19:29:40 <zzo38> I wrote a program to convert binary decision trees to Internet Quiz Engine.
19:30:10 <boily> oh, new quizzes for the zzopher site!
19:31:22 <zzo38> I didn't add any new quizzes yet; just a program to convert binary decision trees.
19:38:22 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
19:38:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 51.3
19:38:57 <ais523> it beats every program
19:39:03 <ais523> and /still/ isn't #1 on the leaderboard
19:41:19 <ais523> it's only 0.7 points off #1, admittedly
19:41:22 <ais523> which is hardly anything
19:41:28 <ais523> perhaps I just need a program that beats space_hotel
19:41:42 <ais523> or, because this pushed space_hotel up to #1, I can rely on people targeting it now
19:42:13 <boily> !bfjoust flangoustine >>>>>>>>[[-.]>]
19:42:16 <EgoBot> Score for boily_flangoustine: 6.4
19:43:21 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
19:44:48 <ais523> does that beat space hotel?
19:45:03 <ais523> I doubt it beats anything very much, given that it tends to run off the end of the program
19:45:17 <ais523> do you mean a ()*21 around the outer []?
19:45:50 <int-e> an even so, isn't it likely to just terminate after 9 steps?
19:46:49 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity >>>>>>>>>([-.]>)*21
19:46:52 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 15.8
19:48:30 <boily> nooodl: it's kinda hard to explain. it implies one of my friends, wildly gesticulating around in a much uncoördinated manner, and lazily not doing something while doing it.
19:48:55 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/jPId This is the program to do so.
19:49:36 <Bike> man this is like an eight hundred line brainfuck program...
19:49:52 -!- Ghoul_ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
19:51:08 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity .
19:51:10 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 6.4
19:51:17 <ais523> Bike: I want to get it to #1 so I can write about it
19:51:24 <ais523> int-e: you use < to delete a program, normally
19:51:30 <ais523> that guarantees a score of 0
19:51:36 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity <
19:51:39 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 0.0
19:51:39 <boily> !bfjoust flangoustine <
19:51:41 <int-e> ah so that's what this does :)
19:51:42 <EgoBot> Score for boily_flangoustine: 0.0
19:52:24 <ais523> that's by far the most common reason for the "off own end" loss
19:52:52 <ais523> which is in the rules mostly because there's no other sensible way to handle that situation, not because it's at all possible to generally trick opponents into doing it
19:53:30 <Bike> i don't have anything to help.
19:56:17 <ais523> I wonder if this is an intended consequence of the scoring system or not
19:56:39 <int-e> !bfjoust wiggle ([]++[]--)*100000
19:56:42 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_wiggle: 6.4
19:57:40 <ais523> the [] is purely harming that program
19:57:56 <ais523> never zerotest your own flag unless you think the opponent is offset or turtle clearing it (and even in those cases, it's really dangerous)
19:58:11 <ais523> because if you test it and find it's zero, then if the opponent doesn't repair it on the same turn, you've lost
19:58:21 <ais523> zero-testing the /opponent's/ flag is fine, and commonly done, for the same reasons
19:58:33 <Bike> !bfjoust apathy (>[-])*100000
19:58:35 <EgoBot> Score for Bike_apathy: 12.7
19:59:13 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >([-])*100000
19:59:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 6.4
19:59:23 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >(-)*100000
19:59:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 7.2
19:59:42 <ais523> the scoring favours programs that can win, over programs that don't lose
19:59:59 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >(+-)*100000
20:00:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 7.7
20:00:13 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >+(+-)*100000
20:00:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 5.6
20:00:23 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock >(+-)*100000
20:00:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 7.7
20:00:44 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:01:03 <ais523> haha, that actually beats preparation
20:01:12 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock
20:01:12 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
20:01:13 <ais523> !bfjoust pointlesslock <
20:01:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_pointlesslock: 0.0
20:01:32 <int-e> !bfjoust wiggle >>>>>>>>((-)*100[-]>)*21
20:01:36 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_wiggle: 8.9
20:01:43 <int-e> better than apathy :)
20:02:19 <int-e> !bfjoust wiggle >>>>>>>>((-)*100(-.)*50>)*21
20:02:22 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_wiggle: 1.7
20:02:55 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:03:24 <ais523> !bfjoust syntaxerror [
20:03:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_syntaxerror: 0.0
20:03:36 <ais523> I guess that's another way to delete a program
20:08:04 <int-e> !bfjoust stupidity +++>(+)*33>>(-)*29>>>>>>((-)*128.>)*21
20:08:06 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_stupidity: 10.9
20:09:24 <ais523> int-e: you might want to offset that turtle slightly
20:09:31 <ais523> and maybe put a zero test around it
20:10:46 <zzo38> boily: Now there is a new quiz file; "Pokemon in 9 questions" has been converted using the binary decision tree program.
20:11:04 <int-e> ais523: probably, if I wanted to do something not-so-stupid :)
20:11:41 <ais523> I like it when people do stupid things, though, it often gives a challenge to beat them
20:12:13 <ais523> quintopia_wireless_frownie is basically a normal rush program with a bunch of arbitrary misbehaviour built in
20:12:14 <quintopia> zzo38: it can decide which pokemon it is in just 9 questions?
20:12:32 <ais523> to make it not get beaten by programs that beat normal rush programs
20:13:01 <ais523> quintopia: well there are more than 512 Pokémon, so…
20:13:29 <boily> zzo38 has an urban dictionary entry??? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zzo38
20:14:15 <zzo38> quintopia: Only first generation. I didn't make up the questions; I only converted them.
20:14:37 <zzo38> (I also got rid of the non-ASCII characters)
20:14:44 <ais523> generation 1 should be doable in 8
20:14:58 <ais523> 151 is between 128 and 256
20:15:13 <ais523> actually, even if you include all the glitch mons, including all the formes of Missingno., you could still theoretically do it in 8
20:15:14 <FireFly> Enjoy finding good questions though
20:15:27 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know that.
20:15:38 <FireFly> "is its national dex number above x?" isn't good enough :P
20:15:59 <ais523> FireFly: it isn't, the glitch mons don't have sensible dex numbers
20:16:13 <FireFly> Even then, it'd be a boring quiz
20:16:58 <zzo38> Like I said I didn't make up the questions.
20:19:02 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:19:20 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:20:24 <quintopia> ais523: i'm not that into pokemon.
20:20:51 <ais523> that's why I was answering the question
20:20:58 <ais523> because I thought there was a reasonable chance you didn't know the answer
20:22:03 <lexande> ais523: i'm pretty sure gen1 actually did have an 8-bit value to identify pokemon?
20:22:20 <ais523> lexande: it did, but it wasn't dex number
20:22:29 <ais523> and doesn't seem to correspond to any particular order, in fact
20:22:36 <ais523> and it's not user-visible
20:22:53 <lexande> how many missingnos are there?
20:23:14 <ais523> lots, like half the glitch mons are missingnos.
20:23:16 -!- ^v has joined.
20:23:24 <ais523> the other half are just random
20:23:35 <ais523> apart from 'M, which looks like missingno. and has similar but not identical stats
20:23:59 <ais523> 'M is commonly seen because its index number is the string terminator
20:24:53 <quintopia> are glitchmons considered pokemons?
20:25:11 <ais523> apparently there are 49 missingno formes
20:25:32 <ais523> and a specific instane of a glitchmon is typically considered to be a Pokémon, but their species is not considered to be a Pokémon species
20:25:56 <quintopia> so the quiz is unlikely to be about them
20:26:27 <quintopia> this is what i get for being too old for pokemon
20:27:11 <quintopia> (it got popular in america after i was in middle school becuase of the card game, and i never had a game boy)
20:27:38 <ais523> hmm, I'm probably not too /old/ for Pokémon
20:27:39 <zzo38> quintopia: In a magazine once some 93 year old people who played Pokemon card wrote a letter to them. So, even old people do.
20:27:41 <ais523> I was playing it earlier this year
20:27:51 <ais523> but there's lots I dislike about the latest games, X/Y
20:28:10 <ais523> the competitive battling seems better than Black/White, but I fear I wouldn't enjoy the ingame enough to make it worthwhile
20:28:23 <mrhmouse> I never had the attention span for Pokemon, but I did have several of the shiny holographic cards
20:28:24 <zzo38> quintopia: The message was in English.
20:28:56 <zzo38> I don't know who they are though, and I have lost the message.
20:29:30 <zzo38> I still like to play Pokemon card too, especially the Pokemon card puzzle game.
20:30:11 <FireFly> ais523: anything in particular? I rather like it
20:30:33 <ais523> FireFly: a huge reliance on online play/trading with strangers is the thing that puts me off most
20:30:35 <zzo38> FireFly: O, have you tried to figure out the puzzle.5 game yet? I think it is past 14:00 UTC+1
20:30:42 <quintopia> ais523: you wouldn't happen to know anything about k-servers would you?
20:30:43 <ais523> also, the plot is stupid and just doesn't work
20:30:49 <ais523> and the game is very easy compared to all the previous ones
20:30:52 <FireFly> zzo38: yeah, i spammed you a bit in query, maybe you didn't notice?
20:31:04 <zzo38> FireFly: I was sleeping.
20:31:04 <ais523> finally, some specific changes are ridiculous
20:31:48 <ais523> the most absurd one, IIRC, is what they did with Flash
20:32:01 <ais523> Flash's effect is to light up an area around you
20:32:18 <ais523> there is an ability, Illuminate, that's flavoured as lighting up an area
20:32:24 <ais523> Illuminate increases encounter rate
20:32:25 <FireFly> zzo38: http://hastebin.com/raw/voqaxufuna
20:32:34 <ais523> in generation 6, IIRC Flash /reduces/ encounter rate
20:32:39 <ais523> although I haven't played the game so don't know for sure
20:32:45 <ais523> this inconsistency really bothers me
20:33:00 <FireFly> something something flash being sudden and blinding
20:33:19 <ais523> FireFly: well that's what it does in battle
20:33:33 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
20:33:48 <zzo38> I don't like the new Pokemon card rules; they aren't very good. I also don't like the variant with 4 side-cards, or the ordinary "sudden death" rule. They get rid of a lot of the tactics and strategy, involving defense, sacrifice, and other things.
20:33:48 <ais523> also generation 6 seems to mostly have locations that are boring in terms of gameplay
20:33:52 <ais523> although the graphics are neat
20:34:13 <zzo38> And positional play; one of the most important features of Pokemon card.
20:34:37 <FireFly> It's hard to go back to grid-restricted games after playing Y though..
20:35:36 <FireFly> zzo38: I agree about the new TCG rules
20:35:53 <ais523> seeing a speedrun of X is quite depressing, it has so many spare resources
20:36:19 <ais523> the current best known route uses vitamins to increase happiness to get the Lucky Egg earlier
20:36:25 <ais523> rather than needing them for battle
20:37:56 <ais523> the speedruns use Lucario but mega evolve it exactly once, in the mega evolution tutorial
20:38:11 <ais523> kind-of ridiculous to have that button option right there and not even need it
20:42:13 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:43:53 <mrhmouse> I don't have a clue what's going on but I have the sudden desire to take my shoes off and eat canned spaghetti rings
20:45:21 <boily> mrhmouse: which brand?
20:45:59 -!- Bike has joined.
21:00:11 <boily> mrhmouse: call me a snob, but when it comes to canned pastas I accept nothing less than chef boyardee.
21:03:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:08 <Bike> !bfjoust bathos (>-)*100000
21:04:11 <EgoBot> Score for Bike_bathos: 0.0
21:05:35 <boily> !bfjoust bathoff_the_end >*10([-..]>)*100000
21:05:37 <EgoBot> Score for boily_bathoff_the_end: 11.2
21:05:44 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
21:05:51 <boily> bin torieux. that's I think the best score I achieved right there.
21:08:00 <ais523> it's creative, at least?
21:08:43 <boily> I got a score in the double digits! considering my past record, that's quite good!
21:18:33 <FireFly> Now aim for triple-digits.
21:19:37 <boily> has anyone ever achieved that?
21:22:27 <ais523> not sure if a perfect score would hit 100 or not
21:22:41 <ais523> although, one of my aims with omnipotence, and later preparation, was 1000 wins-losses
21:22:49 <ais523> I achieved that with preparation last night
21:23:47 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
21:34:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
21:39:35 <Bike> wee oo wee oo, this is the turing police, present operator credentials or turing test results immediately
21:40:04 <olsner> fungot: friend of yours?
21:40:05 <fungot> olsner: but hey, 400 euros ( or more like... unsecured bbs with little ads, but people usually aren't direct implementations of formulas :)
21:40:14 <mrhmouse> I do believe ruddy would fail the Turing test, with flying colors
21:40:28 <ais523> I think a good Turing test would be to get the person you're testing to give a Turing test
21:40:49 <ais523> as the rate at which CAPTCHAs are broken indicates, computers suck at Turing-testing
21:41:18 <mrhmouse> have we tried the "pick which image from this set matches X criteria" approach yet?
21:41:32 <fizzie> I think you should be able to get a score of exactly 100, maybe.
21:42:32 <boily> fungot: fmap fmap fmap turing turing turing
21:42:32 <fungot> boily: what paren styles don't work?)
21:42:44 <boily> fungot: the ones you won't balance, you shmuck.
21:42:44 <fungot> boily: and with that good night to y'all! /bin/ sh it doesn't
21:42:55 <Taneb> mrhmouse, I think that's getting easier to be solved by computers
21:43:20 <mrhmouse> Taneb: I figured as much, since there are fewer possible answers
21:43:52 <mrhmouse> maybe if we mixed the two approaches (or any number of test types), with a random test each time instead of always a CAPTCHA?
21:44:31 <mrhmouse> ruddy: could you give me a Turing test?
21:44:32 <ruddy> well, you need operations that make use of those cells
21:44:33 <fizzie> It's also hard to get hold of large tagged image categories that your adversaries won't also get, which would mean you'd have to start again warping and distorting the images.
21:45:12 <mrhmouse> fizzie: the idea of warped and distorted pictures of kittens pleases me
21:45:20 <fizzie> Microsoft had a cats-vs.-dogs CAPTCHA.
21:45:33 <fizzie> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/asirra/
21:45:41 <fizzie> I remember when they introduced that thing.
21:46:27 <mrhmouse> scrolled to the bottom, saw the developers, immediately thought "these are terrible pictures of cats and/or dogs"
21:47:16 <fizzie> Also there's an "adopt me" link under each photo in ASIRRA, which means you may end up with a cat just because you were trying to log onto some website.
21:48:19 <olsner> can bots adapt the cats too?
21:48:31 <ruddy> 1 gram of TNT equivalent is equal (defined, even, I think) to 1 kcal
21:48:40 <fizzie> olsner: I would suppose they can do both.
21:48:44 <mrhmouse> I don't think he's qualified to own pets. what about fungot?
21:48:44 <fungot> mrhmouse: you why double you aitch why" is in evolution. he's the channel owner kicked out a lot of
21:48:51 <fizzie> olsner: Though the first one is a disquieting thought.
21:49:08 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not getting you a cat, just so you know.
21:49:08 <fungot> fizzie: there's enough spam in the channel who has been asked for id...)
21:50:12 <mrhmouse> selecting all the dogs when asked to select all of the cats determined that I am a bot.
21:50:20 <Bike> longshot, but does anyone have experience in making visuals for control flow
21:50:39 <fizzie> mrhmouse: I did that too, and was hoping for some sort of a funny message at least.
21:50:53 <olsner> iirc, one of the puzzles in seventh guest involved ruddy
21:50:56 <mrhmouse> fizzie: clearly they haven't calibrated their tests for sassiness
21:51:08 <boily> ruddy ruddy ruddy ♪
21:51:18 <mrhmouse> ruddy: row, row, row your boat
21:51:18 <ruddy> Row, row, row your butt
21:51:36 <ruddy> A black hole is kind of like contagious nothingness, except for the fact that it really isn't
21:52:26 <mrhmouse> ruddy is still very young, and doesn't have a large amount of data to work with
21:52:32 <mrhmouse> yes, that's actually about right
21:52:36 <fizzie> I was tasked to give a person something to get the attention of a dinosaur. I gave him/her a vuvuzela, but apparently it was *so* annoying that the person started attacking me. (Then the dinosaur ate him/her. The end.)
21:52:43 <olsner> so what does ruddy do?
21:52:44 <ruddy> he's sassy now already
21:52:54 <mrhmouse> well, he's sassy, and he spouts nonsense
21:52:54 <Bike> looks like a shitty chatterbot
21:53:29 <FireFly> ruddy, meat fungot. fungot, this is ruddy.
21:53:29 <fungot> FireFly: okay...... oh a web page that lame is not to be confused with fnord
21:53:30 <ruddy> sponsored by british taxpayers, of course)
21:53:48 <olsner> fizzie: vuvuzelas are approx. as loud as MRI machines
21:55:29 <mrhmouse> ruddy isn't as cool, but often gives more appropriate responses
21:55:30 <ruddy> that explains some weird behaviour
21:55:30 <boily> olsner: are you saying that when you're undergoing an MRI and/or a CAT scan it feels like a fast-spinning choir of faceless, robotic vuvuzelas?
21:56:06 <boily> fungot, don't you ever start tooting the vuvu. I'm already scared enough of you.
21:56:06 <fungot> boily: what do you mean? like goto statement ( i know jix isn't here but i have only read a foreword
21:56:09 <olsner> boily: a CAT scan is like silent
21:56:22 <boily> olsner: I wouldn't know. I never underwent one.
21:56:55 <boily> fungot: I wouldn't goto, I don't want any raptors charging, I shun the vuvuzelas.
21:56:56 <fungot> boily: " having points" like in between the towers.
21:57:41 <olsner> boily: neither sounds much at all like a vuvuzela fwiw
21:58:35 * boily SPINNING MAGNETIC CHICKENS!
21:58:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SPINNING MAGNETIC CHICKENS!).
21:58:52 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:12 <Bike> so that's a no :(
21:59:21 <lexande> i think MRIs are deeper in pitch than vuvuzelas
21:59:38 <olsner> @tell boily the cat goes whirr (and tuk-tuk-tuks a bit when it moves you)
22:01:08 <olsner> mris have a surprisingly wide vocal range
22:01:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:09:45 <HackEgo> oohlist (930): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
22:11:09 <mrhmouse> shachaf: is that similar to erflist?
22:11:55 <mrhmouse> I don't know what erflist does.
22:24:18 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:30:40 <kmc> good morning friends
22:31:09 <olsner> morning? you must be in weird-timezone-land
22:31:28 <lambdabot> Local time for lifthrasiir is Thu Nov 14 07:31:26 2013
22:31:36 <olsner> +9? isn't that the wrong way?
22:32:02 <Bike> he's not in south america or alaska
22:32:08 <olsner> or did you go visit ... samsung?
22:33:03 <kmc> Thu Nov 14 07:33:00 KST 2013
22:33:12 <kmc> \rainbow{THE FUTURE}
22:33:24 <kmc> and yes, this week I'm working from Samsung Digital City
22:47:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:52:26 -!- conehead has joined.
22:57:24 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:58:41 -!- augur has joined.
22:59:55 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:01:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:03:11 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:07:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:34:06 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:39:40 -!- augur has joined.
23:43:38 -!- mrhmouse has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:53:45 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).