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00:08:14 <kmc> http://imgur.com/gallery/IkUDj
00:10:38 <oerjan> have the youtube commenters migrated to imgur
00:13:33 -!- kmc has set topic: SUNTORY BOSS is the boss of them all since 1992 | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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00:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i see a few places calling the real plane with a point at infinity 'projective' (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve#The_group_law )
00:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, in that article it's the specific point at infinity corresponding to the y axis
00:21:03 <kmc> shachaf: :)
00:21:43 <oerjan> the projective plane has a line at infinity, not just a point.
00:22:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (while we're at it: is the surface at infinity of the 3d projective space a 2-sphere or the projective plane?)
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00:30:16 <oerjan> in homogeneous coordinates, the subspaces at infinity are just the elements that have a fixed coordinate 0, so you cannot normalize it to 1.
00:30:41 <oerjan> but this is the same as the projective space of one lower dimension.
00:32:29 <oerjan> that is, R^3 embeds into the projective space as (x,y,z,1) and points of the form (x,y,z,0) are the infinite remainder.
00:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just the subspace (x,y,z,0) over the same equivalence relation as the normal projective plane
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01:02:14 <gigimoi> Working on my own eso language, currently looks like this: https://github.com/gigimoi/B2D/blob/master/examples/fibonnaci.b2d
01:06:38 <oerjan> hm that would look better if [ and ] swapped meanings in the opposite direction
01:10:01 <Taneb> I though paradigm was pronounced paradiggum
01:11:41 <fizzie> oerjan: And perhaps you'd use ⎴ and ⎵ when going up/down too?
01:12:00 <kmc> it's ok, mispronouncing words because you've only read them is a sign of erudition (pretend i mispronounced the word "erudition" here)
01:14:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i see no point in using those little squares
01:14:58 <zzo38> Yes I have pronounce words wrong too due to only reading them, and so have other people, even Feynman was studying biology but never learned it in the class so he mispronounced everything too, and my father said he also mispronounced everything at first; a lot of people do.
01:18:09 <fizzie> `@ oerjan unidecode ⎴⎵
01:18:11 <HackEgo> oerjan: [U+23B4 TOP SQUARE BRACKET] [U+23B5 BOTTOM SQUARE BRACKET]
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02:28:45 <zzo38> The dancing Imakuni?'s card is much more useful than the ordinary Imakuni?'s card! (The dancing Imakuni?'s card allows you to make your active pokemon card sleeping, confused, paralyzed, or poisoned, according to your choice.)
02:31:21 <Taneb> zzo38, yesterday afternoon I played my first session of D&D
02:32:03 <Taneb> During which in the first encounter my character got transformed into a walking plot device
02:33:58 <Taneb> Which is kind of useful because now the party actually has a reason to keep me alive
02:34:11 <Taneb> (my character is the only nice character in the party)
02:34:47 <zzo38> Taneb: Ah, OK. Well, now you don't have to defend yourself against attacks they make against you, I suppose.
02:35:02 <Taneb> zzo38, I thought it was fun to play a pacifist
02:35:26 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, that is OK if you like to do so!
02:35:38 <Taneb> So far it's been a fun constraint for me at least
02:35:54 <Taneb> I think the rest of the party is a bit annoyed but then again they are all quite combat-oriented
02:36:08 <zzo38> I don't play combat-oriented though either
02:36:50 <Taneb> Also I do not associate a recording of my voice to me at all
02:37:04 <Taneb> Unless either I've just said it or there's a picture of me
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02:38:39 <zzo38> Maybe it is true of some other people too though
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02:38:57 <Taneb> Also I quite like my voice when I don't associate it with me
02:38:59 <zzo38> Do you like my own kind of playing of Dungeons&Dragons game?
02:39:02 <Taneb> But when I do I don't like it
02:39:09 <Taneb> zzo38, can you describe that briefly
02:41:19 <zzo38> Well, I try to affect the situation rather than making direct attacks and so on (although sometimes I will, the other characters in my party are better at combat); I also like to play monster character. There are various other things too I do, such as strange spells, and I always try to conserve all spells and everything rather than use them, if possible
02:41:41 <zzo38> You would have to read it to understand (it is a file on my computer, you can download)
02:42:20 <Taneb> I think it is the DM's first game, though, and I want to make it easy for him
02:42:31 <Taneb> So I'm sticking with his quest
02:42:52 <zzo38> This is my game recording: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
02:43:31 <zzo38> (Whenever I update it, I will post a message starting with "`danddreclist" to this channel.)
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03:59:14 <shachaf> "Please help us improve our service by answering a few questions about your experience: * Take the survey * No, I do not wish to take the survey at this time"
03:59:20 <shachaf> I feel like this is a trap.
04:00:05 <ion> The only winning move is not to play.
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04:05:53 <zzo38> You could possibly ignore the question if you don't like it, I suppose.
04:07:11 <zzo38> Imakuni?'s card is *not* useless!
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04:20:40 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with the infinite redirect in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnstone
04:21:00 <shachaf> oerjan: and in the meanwhile completely ignoring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnstone_(mathematician)
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06:26:05 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskreddit/comments/1rc44v/i_dont_know_why_people_add_a_question_mark_to_a/
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06:46:55 <Bike> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/87zBrsJ.jpg
06:49:37 <Bike> oh hey mispronunciation in the logs
06:49:45 <Bike> today i found out that i've been saying 'array' wrong for presumably years
06:49:46 <shachaf> i live right by crescent park
06:50:14 <shachaf> those billionaires, man. somebody gotta do something
06:52:38 <shachaf> i live on the east palo alto side of the border, though
06:53:05 <Fiora> Bike: is it "uh-ray"?
06:53:24 <Bike> don't think so
06:53:24 <shachaf> which makes me the kind of people they want to keep out :'(
06:53:32 <Bike> i already forgot though
06:53:40 <Bike> not like i use it in conversation much
06:53:51 <Bike> relatedly i explained what an FPGA is to my dad, that was fun
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07:38:05 <ion> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A9aQ7DYCYAAb0fU.jpg
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09:12:58 <myname> 10:05:55 <jj2baile> Sweet, can't used @ as a function name in haskell, but I can use ＠! Thanks.
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10:05:20 <lexande> b_jonas: there are no trashcans in british train stations, except in rare cases in the form of clear plastic bags hanging freely (in the hopes that a bomb inside one would be visible, i guess)
10:05:44 <lexande> and yet there is not much litter because britain
10:06:31 <Taneb> lexande, there are up north
10:06:50 <Taneb> I know Hexham and Newcastle both have bins
10:06:53 <Taneb> Because I've used them
10:07:11 <lexande> also in new york the MTA can't manage to empty all the trash cans fast enough
10:07:18 <Taneb> Can't remember any in York but I've never had to wait in York
10:07:22 <lexande> so they've removed the trashcans from some stations
10:08:11 <lexande> so that people will take their trash outside rather than putting it in an overflowing bin
10:08:37 <lexande> which seems like a parody of government-agency disfunction
10:09:00 <lexande> but then, London once stored bags full of rubbish in giant piles in Leicester Square
10:10:10 <lexande> s/government-agency/organisational/;
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11:09:16 <fizzie> @ask kmc Do people often call you "Kegs"?
11:09:45 <fizzie> (I think I may have asked about that before.)
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11:19:18 <lexande> fizzie: i have spent a lot of time around Keegan and have never ever heard anyone call him Kegs.
11:35:59 <Taneb> fizzie, you made fungot, right?
11:35:59 <fungot> Taneb: this was acctully a computer could land by itself-with no one thinks the black guy, the crew.
11:36:18 <Taneb> Can you give me some tips for markov-chain text generation
11:37:43 <FireFly> I think fungot's trying to say they created themself
11:37:43 <fungot> FireFly: nesun dorma in female roles only, i could show you a stack of proof from a sensationalist american tv-shows are not always right' mode.
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12:09:01 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, I mean, fungot's just a ngram model, generating text from one is borderline trivial.
12:09:01 <fungot> fizzie: you're not exactly gonna be relased....what a shame that it was mostly a maze involving a red line as the tail hit the trees or something?
12:09:29 <oerjan> fungot: how do you feel about fizzie insulting you
12:09:30 <fungot> oerjan: wow like 10 mins ago i saw the poseidon go down quick enough. i think most can remeber their first flight" for " habsheim airbus crash" under search and watch the video above, it was
12:09:41 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm having trouble dealing with punctuation
12:09:53 <oerjan> i think he may not have noticed.
12:10:38 <fizzie> Taneb: I just preprocess that stuff. The tokens in the model for (foo.) look like POPAREN foo PDOT PCPAREN.
12:11:01 <fizzie> Taneb: (The Perl version keeps a stack of paired punctuation to ensure it matches, but that's not in the Funge version.)
12:11:29 <oerjan> yeah stacks are too hard in funge
12:11:58 <fizzie> oerjan: You're free to submit a patch, you know.
12:12:27 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
12:12:31 <fizzie> (Enough of the YouTubes.)
12:27:56 <Slereah> I did some little assembly things with the registers
12:28:03 <Slereah> Now let's try to fuck around with the RAM a bit
12:29:25 <mroman_> What the hell are you doing?
12:40:40 <oerjan> @tell shachaf whoever made the redirect wiped out some stuff. also i don't see how it was infinite.
12:41:21 <oerjan> @tell shachaf you might learn to read wikipedia history diffs hth
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12:57:25 <oerjan> > let x @! y = var $ x++': '++y in "myname" @! "yes, it's true"
12:57:26 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input `:'
12:57:38 <oerjan> > let x @! y = var $ x++": "++y in "myname" @! "yes, it's true"
12:58:47 <oerjan> myndzi: myname: you two have to battle it out in a nick deathmatch.
12:59:17 <oerjan> myname: removing quotes. technically it's some symbol representation thing.
13:00:04 <myname> oerjan: just make your client complete to the right one
13:01:01 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) . map var $ cycle ["myname","myndzi"]
13:01:02 <lambdabot> [myname,myname + myndzi,myname + myndzi + myname,myname + myndzi + myname +...
13:01:31 <oerjan> myname: it doesn't do so until the right one speaks
13:03:58 <oerjan> > fix (var "myname" +)
13:03:59 <lambdabot> myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (myname + (mynam...
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14:22:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
14:25:36 <fizzie> Bah. The (DS3) gamepad has stopped working in Windows again, after the 8.1 upgrade.
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18:55:21 <shachaf> oerjan: what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstone_(surname) though
19:00:05 <kmc> fizzie: no, maybe a few people in high school....... why
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19:03:49 <oerjan> FreeFull: expr is like a type restriction of id, to use when the usual Expr functions are so polymorphic that you get error messages like these:
19:03:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:05:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:05:09 <lambdabot> f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (f (...
19:05:41 <oerjan> @tell FreeFull see logs.
19:07:13 <oerjan> > f (expr . g . expr) x :: Expr
19:07:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:07:35 <oerjan> i guess that might be a problem.
19:09:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr a0)
19:10:04 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:10:33 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
19:10:44 <oerjan> oh wait it's Expr itself which isn't Typeable
19:10:54 <oerjan> @let derive Typeable Expr
19:10:55 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
19:11:17 <oerjan> hm not sure that's even correct syntax
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19:13:22 <oerjan> oh well i guess it couldn't print "f g x" even if it did.
19:15:23 <b_jonas> > var "f g x" {- it can print anything -}
19:15:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr'
19:16:10 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
19:17:33 <oerjan> > fix (show . (:[]) . var)
19:17:34 <lambdabot> "[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[...
19:17:54 <FireFly> Oh, you generated a lisp program
19:18:13 <FireFly> Unfortunately it's infinitely deep
19:18:22 <oerjan> > fix (show . flip (,) undefined . var) -- more lispy
19:18:23 <lambdabot> "((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:19:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input `)'
19:19:53 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:20:15 <oerjan> that looks buggy. also i have a feeling i've seen that bug before.
19:20:41 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:20:49 <oerjan> ' is a legal identifier character
19:22:17 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:22:24 <oerjan> as long as we're golfing
19:25:40 <lambdabot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
19:26:27 <fizzie> Quick, generate lots of ]s or )s or the channel will capsize due to unbalanced parens.
19:26:46 <fungot> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ...too much output!
19:27:13 <evalj> b_jonas: ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))...
19:27:45 <ais523> b_jonas: oerjan's code was Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
19:27:59 <oerjan> did jconn get renamed?
19:28:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's a different instance
19:28:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: we've had four or five different instances of the same bot
19:28:44 <jconn> oerjan: ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))...
19:28:44 <b_jonas> evalj is mine, but I only run it occasionally
19:28:57 <b_jonas> jconn is fftw's instance, he runs it all the time
19:29:00 <ais523> how many bots do we have that can do Underload?
19:29:01 <fungot> ais523: google will find plenty :) iz 3.
19:29:09 <ais523> thutubot can but it's not online atm (nor is it normally)
19:29:13 <ais523> can any of the non-eso bots do it?
19:29:23 <b_jonas> we used to have two or three instances of buubot at some time too
19:29:28 <b_jonas> now I think we only have one active
19:29:30 <oerjan> `interp underload (hi)S
19:30:41 <ais523> also, esobots tend to pick Underload and brainfuck to impl
19:30:44 <ais523> presumably because they're easy
19:31:03 <ais523> although thutubot doesn't do brainfuck because Thutu sucks at arithmetic
19:32:12 <oerjan> if i remembered how dc worked i'd check EgoBot.
19:32:38 <b_jonas> and it uses backtick as the invocation character too, which is funny
19:32:43 <b_jonas> because I chose backtick for termbot
19:33:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstone_(surname) though <-- argh
19:35:01 <HackEgo> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
19:35:47 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131124-reddit.png <- that was new for me. (Not that I diddit much.)
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19:37:12 <HackEgo> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
19:37:29 <fizzie> `run echo '1 2 3 4 5' | dc - <(echo '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp') # easiest way to sum numbers in stdin?
19:37:47 <b_jonas> this underload looks scary
19:38:08 <ais523> b_jonas: it's probably my greatest esolanging accomplishment
19:38:32 <ais523> because it is actually new and different and yet useful
19:39:25 <b_jonas> ais523: can underload be translated to dc by some simple replacements, like replacing parens to square brackets etc?
19:39:43 <b_jonas> or does this stack turned to program not allow that? I don't really understand underload
19:39:50 <ais523> concatenative languages are known to be quite easy to interconvert between
19:39:57 <ais523> although it won't be exactly the same due to the S command
19:40:13 <ais523> the stack->program translation is really vital, though, it's the only way to be able to do control flow
19:40:29 <b_jonas> there's a dc obfu that takes the length of strings that are also used as code
19:40:43 <b_jonas> so if you try to replace parts of code it falls apart because the lengths are wrong
19:41:17 <ais523> now I'm wondering why anyone would ever want to obfuscate dc code
19:41:29 <oerjan> shachaf: made it a disambiguation page instead.
19:41:37 <ais523> anyway, I consider S a design mistake in Underload, but given that I hardly ever work on its successor Underlambda…
19:41:41 <b_jonas> ais523: you're asking that on #esoteric ? you can't be serious
19:42:26 <ais523> b_jonas: I was; it's like asking "why would anyone ever think of writing a standard library for BackFlip"
19:42:34 <oerjan> fizzie: reddit not loading happens all the time.
19:42:42 <b_jonas> mind you, I shouldn't call it a brilliant idea
19:42:46 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that just didn't occur to me that it might be a useful operation, nor even do just for the hell of it
19:43:02 <kmc> fizzie: nice dc, also what?
19:43:04 <b_jonas> given that that perl obfu I showed you yesterday uses exactly this trick: it re-uses its code as data so you can't change its code
19:43:23 <b_jonas> `perl -eeval for'for$=(2..27){$*=0;$*=($**$=+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr$*}'."\n#ig\\tq\24^-/v\c^l,\23\$%\3\ta2\tk\b\c\)\x18 -- ambrus"
19:43:25 <HackEgo> $* is no longer supported at (eval 1) line 1. \ Just another Perl hacker,
19:43:37 <kmc> i've never written code for dc, is it actually usually like '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp' ?
19:43:53 <b_jonas> `perl -eeval for"for\$^(2..27){\$==0;\$==(\$=*\$^+ord)%127,for/./gs;print+chr\$=}\n#P*h!9= Nn[\c\9\0*.:\eUt\17%j{dY\31 -- ambrus"
19:43:54 <ais523> obfuscating Perl makes sense, both because people have competitions in it, and because you might want to stop people reading your Perl source and yet have the compiler understand it
19:43:56 <ais523> kmc: yeah, it always looks like that
19:44:00 <zzo38> I sometimes use dc.
19:44:11 <b_jonas> I have some dc code somewhere
19:44:26 <ais523> basically because dc was originally intended for arithmetic, which it devotes most of its readability to
19:44:43 <ais523> and everything else gets pushed into a few keywords which are single consonants
19:44:47 <b_jonas> ais523: also it was written back when memory was really expensive
19:44:50 <ais523> and probably vowels too, but nobody uses those
19:44:52 <FireFly> dc looks almost as obfuscated as TECO
19:44:57 <b_jonas> so the original dc had to be implemented in a very tight space
19:45:05 <b_jonas> obviously it's gained a few more primitives since,
19:45:10 <b_jonas> but the basics haven't changed
19:45:13 <kmc> "back when memory was really expensive, and probably vowels too"
19:45:33 <FireFly> kmc: but nobody uses those
19:46:02 <kmc> are there any esolangs with Hangul syntax? actually I asked this before and the answer is "yes" but there should be more because, Hangul owns
19:46:03 <zzo38> Actually I think dc is OK
19:46:26 <b_jonas> `dc -e1dp[pdsd+ldrlxx]dsxx
19:46:27 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134
19:46:37 <fizzie> kmc: It doesn't always look quite like that if you're just using it interactively to do some arithmetic.
19:46:37 <b_jonas> `dc -e1d[prdk+KdZ5\>x]dsxx
19:46:39 <HackEgo> dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: dc: 1 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 1 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 2 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 3 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 5 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 8 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 13 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 21 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 34 \ '\' (0134) unimplemented \ 55 \ '\'
19:46:39 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Aheui
19:46:54 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765
19:47:22 <HackEgo> dc: ''' (047) unimplemented \ 20 \ dc: ''' (047) unimplemented
19:47:29 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
19:47:40 <Bike> no idea about this bracket stuff
19:47:43 <Bike> or any of the other stuff
19:47:52 <Bike> stuff in general, tbh
19:48:03 <fizzie> Brackets are like Underload parens hth
19:48:27 <zzo38> In fact the TeXnicard programming language is based on dc and Underload (well, one of its embedded programming languages anyways; there is another used for graphics, and another used for booster packs and deck construction, etc)
19:48:30 <ais523> pretty much all concatenative languages have something equivalent to Underload parens, unless you're intentionally trying to make one that doesn't
19:48:32 <fizzie> And x is like Underload ! hth^2
19:48:37 <ais523> (such as dei, which I don't think is on the wiki)
19:49:08 <fizzie> (I don't know how I got that wrong, brain fart.)
19:49:12 <FireFly> brackets are for quotation I suppose?
19:50:46 <ais523> dc has many esolang-like properties
19:51:35 <zzo38> FireFly: Brackets introduce strings, which are used for code blocks too.
19:51:48 <Bike> so "e1d[prdk+KdZ5>x]dsxx" pushes 1,1,"prdk+KdZ5>x" to the stack, puts "prdk+KdZ5>x" in the "x" register, and then pops "prdk+KdZ5>x" from the stack and executes it?
19:51:56 <Bike> er, scratch the initial e
19:52:49 <kmc> waiting at LAX for my flight home to SF
19:53:41 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, that would do
19:53:42 <b_jonas> Bike: some explanation in http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=627011
19:53:53 <fizzie> `dc -e[d91aPP93aP[dx]P]dx
19:53:56 <fizzie> `interp underload (:aS(:^)S):^
19:54:19 <Bike> hm... but then p should pop 1 from the stack and print it, leaving the stack as just a 1, so what's r do?
19:54:23 <kmc> maybe i should actually learn the korean language instead of just obsessing over how cool the alphabet is
19:54:34 <fizzie> It's not quite as clean as the Underload version because there's no equivalent of "a".
19:55:23 <b_jonas> Bike: swaps the other 1 with the long string
19:55:42 <Bike> but i thought x popped the string to execute it
19:55:49 <b_jonas> yes, but it got duplicated by d
19:55:59 <Bike> but s popped it
19:56:57 <b_jonas> ais523: this underload is awesome
19:57:25 <Bike> k sets the precision... i thought dc used bignums
19:57:46 <fizzie> I love this bit of the dc man page, regarding P on a number: "Assuming that (UCHAR_MAX+1) is 256 (as it is on most machines with 8-bit bytes), the sequence KSK0k1/_1Ss [ls*]Sxd0>x [256~Ssd0<x]dsxxsx[q]Sq[Lsd0>qaPlxx] dsxxsx0sqLqsxLxLK+k could also accomplish this function."
19:57:48 <zzo38> It does use bignums, although some operations still need the precision
19:57:52 <b_jonas> Bike: here we use the precision as just a register
19:57:54 <fizzie> They're not shy about what it looks like.
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19:58:02 <b_jonas> Bike: we don't use any ops that precision changes
19:58:11 <b_jonas> it's just that k is shorter than saving to a register
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19:58:43 <zzo38> Yes, I think I have done that too for golf attempt
19:58:46 <b_jonas> you can see the history here: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=490532
19:58:59 <zzo38> This is dc program implementing the XKCD variation of Deadfish: [p]1:z[d*]2:z[1+]3:z[1-]4:z[0sB]dsAx[lB0>AlB256=A0d?lBz;zxsBclCx]dsCx
19:59:24 <zzo38> Someone else implemented the ordinary Deadfish however that one has some problem dealing with the "s" command properly.
19:59:53 <b_jonas> more variants at http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=626801
19:59:56 <Bike> "f : R -> R is a continuous function with the property that for any fixed real number x, f(nx) -> 0 as n -> \infty. Show that f(x) -> 0 as x -> \infty." i think i'm a failure
20:00:27 <Bike> i can't tell if they mean natural n
20:00:39 <ais523> they must do, otherwise you just choose 1 as your fixed x
20:01:07 <ais523> and it's not an interesting question
20:01:24 <Bike> a blog post linked about it specifies naturals too so there we go
20:01:46 <Bike> i came up with a discontinuous counterexample and that's about it, go me
20:01:52 <ais523> do you want me to give away the solution? I think I've got it
20:02:23 <Bike> well i already have "easy consequence of baire's category theorem" as a solution but i don't really know that theory
20:04:32 <b_jonas> underlang is both awesome and scary
20:04:45 <b_jonas> btw, does anyone happen to have a working running copy of wikiplia?
20:06:25 * oerjan swats b_jonas for misspelling underload -----###
20:07:06 <shachaf> oerjan: might want to deal with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Johnston
20:08:00 <oerjan> shachaf: um no i didn't change the others so why change that.
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20:08:45 <HackEgo> dc: Could not open file 448378203247P
20:08:47 <oerjan> there isn't a really good article for that peter johnstone, the original was so minimal it got changed to a redirect to the list of governors.
20:09:58 <shachaf> oerjan: well that one is already a combined disambiguation page for johnston and johnstone
20:10:37 <oerjan> can i ban shachaf until he starts doing his wikipedia editing himself
20:10:39 <b_jonas> FireFly: hmm, that's a good idea
20:10:56 <b_jonas> something like the mod 127 polynomial obfu could possibly be translated to dc
20:10:58 <shachaf> oerjan: i need the experts to think of all the edge cases for me
20:11:01 <shachaf> otherwise i might miss something
20:11:03 <b_jonas> I have it in perl and lua so far
20:11:33 <oerjan> shachaf: but you keep giving me extra work because you keep finding new edge cases!
20:11:58 <FireFly> b_jonas: oh, mind showing the lua version?
20:12:27 <FireFly> but yeah, the P command seems like a useful one to (ab)use
20:12:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: you don't need P, you can use a
20:13:05 <FireFly> I haven't gotten that far in the manpage yet
20:13:30 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://dpaste.com/1481708/
20:13:57 <oerjan> shachaf: anyway, i fixed the problem where someone who seeks for the mathematician might end up on a dead end with no way to him, which was the main problem afaiac.
20:14:07 <b_jonas> that one also puts most of the code inside the string used for data, so you can't change the code, but for some silly reason my name is not in that string so you can change that
20:14:59 <shachaf> (that was my original problem)
20:18:55 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe I should try to write such a version of the GF(128) japh too
20:19:09 <b_jonas> one where you can't just change the code that is
20:19:27 <b_jonas> that would be against its purpose
20:19:57 <b_jonas> the point of my GF(128) obfu is to show off how easy it is to do calculations over GF(128) in perl
20:20:09 <b_jonas> so the code should be changeable
20:22:02 <FireFly> Hm, so basically the idea is to treat the bytes in the string as coefficients of a polynomial, and compute that polynomial for x ∈ [2,26] (or however long a string you want to output)
20:22:02 <b_jonas> easy not only in that the code is short, but that it does the computation vectorized working with all the coefficients at the same time
20:22:08 <b_jonas> there's no explicit loops on the coefficients
20:22:52 <FireFly> Btw, you could change that ; in the string to a space for (slightly) more obscure code, I'm pretty sure
20:23:19 <b_jonas> what semicolon in which code?
20:23:27 <FireFly> Or rather, less-expected-to-work code for someone not used to Lua's grammar
20:23:46 <b_jonas> yeah... you can often omit semicolons in lua
20:23:55 <FireFly> Lua doesn't require any particular delimiter between statements
20:24:16 <b_jonas> the semicolon is required only when it would be ambiguous otherwise
20:24:38 <b_jonas> so which semicolon out of the three?
20:25:12 <FireFly> Actually, I think all three
20:25:14 <b_jonas> in the string... which out of two
20:25:23 <FireFly> I don't think any of them cause any ambiguity
20:25:34 <oerjan> ais523: i have a hunch lucasieks may be trying to make the pages fit within his browser width.
20:25:51 <FireFly> for the last one you could even remove it (the string and the identifier are separate tokens anyway)
20:26:29 <b_jonas> the second semicolon is after an end, which makes it less surprising you can omit it (for me as a perler)
20:26:46 <oerjan> i recall previously having a bug where i couldn't scroll properly rightwards when wikitables got too wide, although that seems to have been fixed for me now. maybe he still has that problem.
20:26:59 <b_jonas> the third one uyou could omit but you'd still need the newline or it would be too wide
20:27:01 <ais523> oerjan: I had a hunch that might be it too, but his solutions are really destructive
20:27:07 <ais523> one of them put a newline in the middle of a keyword…
20:27:10 <FireFly> Btw, newlines in Lua has no special meaning either (i.e., newlines == spaces as far as the lexer is concerned)
20:27:20 <oerjan> (as in, my browser for some reason didn't detect that it needed a scrollbar when the reason was a wide wikitable)
20:27:42 <b_jonas> I like that feature in perl and C too where it's mostly true about newlines
20:27:58 <b_jonas> (and some other languages)
20:28:56 <ais523> b_jonas: Algol 60 completely ignores whitespace
20:29:10 <FireFly> What, even for separating tokens?
20:29:11 <b_jonas> ais523: some basics and some fortrans do as well
20:29:14 <ais523> except that it's left undefined what the representation of a keyword is, and some compilers disallow whitespace inside keywords
20:29:14 <zzo38> Yes, I like that feature of how C and so on treats line breaks (except in C++ comments and preprocessor directives)
20:29:32 <b_jonas> in so much that you can't write X OR Y in some basics because X OR is a token
20:29:32 <ais523> all compliant Algol 60 implementations allow whitespace inside variable names, though
20:29:39 <FireFly> So the substring "for" is always treated as a separate token, say, even if it appears in "aforb" or something?
20:29:48 <b_jonas> FireFly: in some basics, yes
20:29:54 <ais523> FireFly: in Algol 60, it depends on the impl
20:30:08 <ais523> the impl I have requires keywords to have no internal spaces but is insensitive to spaces around them
20:30:19 <ais523> if you wand an identifier name aforb, you have to write it as af orb, for instance
20:30:20 <b_jonas> FireFly: mind you, those basics also had 2 characters significant length of variable names, 3 significant of keywords, and small memory
20:30:37 <zzo38> OASYS does the same and it doesn't even have semicolons or whatever to separate statements.
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20:31:40 <ais523> Algol 68 is whitespace-sensitive, I think, but it still allows whitespace inside identifiers
20:32:37 <b_jonas> but that's because algol/fortran was invented in the days of punch cards
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20:40:48 <b_jonas> I only ever made my own esolang once, and wrote only one program in it, and that one program was buggy.
20:41:00 <b_jonas> I know now how I could fix that program, but have lost interest in it.
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20:41:17 <b_jonas> I won't revive that esolang, but might try something with similar design later.
20:46:08 <b_jonas> hmm... I wonder if it's possible to translate http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=989716 (arithmetic in Zeckendorf representation) to sed
20:46:20 <b_jonas> it's all rewrite rules, so it's probably representable in sed
20:46:45 <b_jonas> of course, there's already a famous calculator (using decimal) in sed, so it might not be worth
20:46:50 <ais523> b_jonas: well, Thue is Turing-complete…
20:48:04 <ais523> is it BF-complete, btw?
20:48:24 <b_jonas> but I wonder if zeckendorf addition in particualr can be translated in a short and simple way
20:49:06 <oerjan> ais523: you cannot input an arbitrary string and be sure it doesn't mess up your program.
20:49:33 <oerjan> because it can always be identical to something you are using for internal data
20:49:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: you can almost do it in sed
20:50:08 <b_jonas> maybe you can completely do it
20:50:20 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, that's what I was wondering about
20:50:35 <ais523> perhaps you could do something clever involving the ends of the string, but probably not
20:50:36 <b_jonas> you can save the current buffer, read a string, do some replacements in it to make it safe, then load back the holded string
20:50:39 <oerjan> sed can detect end of string while thue cannot; i think this is the essential difference to some things.
20:52:12 <oerjan> well regexes are much more powerful in other ways too.
20:53:28 <b_jonas> well, sed is also more convenient
20:53:47 <oerjan> ais523: e.g. see the discussion on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Thue#Challenging_Problem
20:53:50 <b_jonas> because it has match wildcards and can copy parts of the matched string to the replacement
20:54:01 <b_jonas> (with the limitation that only the first nine parenthesis can be copied)
20:54:11 <b_jonas> s/parenthesis/parenthesis group/
21:11:09 <FireFly> Hm, I wonder why dc's ? executes the input rather than pushing it to the stack...
21:11:39 <FireFly> the latter seems like it'd be more useful, and executing it is as easy as applying x to it anyway
21:11:44 <ais523> because it's designed for interactive use, not as a programming language
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21:13:28 <FireFly> it foils my code-golfing plans, though
21:16:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:21:10 <b_jonas> FireFly: what did you want to golf?
21:22:17 <FireFly> Oh, nothing in particular. I just thought dc seemed like it'd be neat for golfing
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21:42:17 <elliott> ais523: perhaps a message on [[User talk:Lucasieks]] is warranted
21:42:38 <ais523> elliott: I will if he does that more, I'm too apathetic right now
21:43:11 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
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21:50:44 <zzo38> Can you play Yomi cards? I have made up three new decks of Yomi cards.
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21:57:07 <Vorpal> Me? I don't even know what that is
21:58:29 <Vorpal> FireFly, I found that even if I don't try to golf in it, it ends up looking like an unreadable golfed program anyway
21:58:57 <FireFly> Vorpal: assuming you don't need to input things that aren't numbers or bracket-encompassed strings?
21:59:07 <FireFly> s/input things/read things from input/
21:59:18 <fizzie> Steam is advertising a pre-purchase option of "Professional Farmer 2014" to me.
21:59:18 <Vorpal> I mostly used it to perform math from shell scripts
21:59:52 <fizzie> "Tractors And Farm Machines Get Your Farm Up And Running The PC simulator "Professional Farmer 2014" takes the player to the countryside and gives hobby farmers full control in the comfort of their home."
22:00:24 <Vorpal> I never understood the craze for farming simulators
22:00:36 <Vorpal> Nor truck simulators either.
22:00:46 <fizzie> I guess this is like the ultra-realistic "flight simulator" end of farming simulators.
22:00:52 <fizzie> Where Farmville and such are at the opposite side.
22:01:16 <fizzie> "Good Ol’ Times DLC: 7 additional, historical Tractor models for Professional Farmer 2014."
22:01:37 <fizzie> Included in the Collector's Edition, of course.
22:02:01 <Vorpal> don't see why you would want to simulate farming
22:02:10 <Bike> big machinery.
22:02:26 <oerjan> now with 15 extra manure options!
22:02:54 <Vorpal> Bike, yes but tractors? Combine harvesters? Really?
22:03:13 <elliott> why would you simulate mining and crafting
22:03:33 <fizzie> oerjan: "Agricultural Simulator 2013"'s "Key Features" include a freely placeable "Dung Tank".
22:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, alas, minecraft is not much of a simulation. It is way to "gameified" for that.
22:03:54 <Vorpal> And that is for the better I would say
22:04:01 <elliott> alas, it is for the better
22:04:53 <Vorpal> I think I just got z-buffer fighting in a 2D program. That was weird.
22:05:05 <Vorpal> Or something like that
22:07:28 <fizzie> I suppose the farm thing makes as much sense as the train thing, which I at least can somewhat understand.
22:08:00 <Vorpal> Flight sims and space sims I can see some point in. Especially space sims.
22:08:05 <elliott> fizzie can only understand train simulations for doing logic in them.
22:08:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that was OpenTTD, which is far from a train sim, again way too "gameified".
22:08:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: How about game development simulators?
22:09:03 * Bike the rural guy stands by and stares sidelong at Vorpal.
22:09:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah I heard of that, Haven't checked it out though. Somewhat of a management game iirc?
22:09:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: So I've understood. I only know of it because of the piracy thing.
22:09:51 <Vorpal> Eh, not really interested in management games, so meh, couldn't care less.
22:10:34 <fizzie> (The pirated version has a tweak that, after some amount of time, people start to pirate all your games and your company will pretty much unavoidably tank, plus a guilt-trip message.)
22:13:11 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jamie_Zawinski&diff=582900523&oldid=prev need a source, stat
22:14:25 <Vorpal> What is the bouncing cow screensaver??
22:14:26 <fizzie> Bike: "man bouncingcow" says "Author: Jamie Zawinski", FWIW.
22:14:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Part of XScreenSaver.
22:14:48 <Vorpal> Ah, don't have that installed
22:14:54 <Vorpal> I just blank the screen instead
22:15:15 <Vorpal> never seen the point of screensavers that don't save the screen by turning it off or blacking it out.
22:16:57 <fizzie> Presumably the point is that they're both pretty to look at, and still functional at avoiding burn-in.
22:18:15 <Vorpal> Hm, I guess screensavers make more sense now again when there is OLED? I never heard of burn in with TN or IPS
22:19:59 <Vorpal> There are so many technologies nowdays... TN, IPS, MVA, PLS, PVA...
22:20:31 <Vorpal> It used to be that the only ones you ever heard about were CRT, TN and maybe IPS.
22:20:44 <oerjan> soon they'll run out of TLAs
22:23:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, Wikipedia already lists AFFS as a screen technology, so they started early on that
22:23:29 <Vorpal> Oh and there is also OLED I guess.
22:25:06 <Vorpal> Hm I don't think each monitor around me has a different technology. Well okay not quite. There are three TN monitors with the laptops included, but apart from that I have one IPS, one AMOLED and one "Super PLS"
22:25:40 <Vorpal> 4 TN with the laptops included. I forgot the old first model ibook in the bookshelf.
22:26:22 <Bike> mrhmouse: why, i live in the lentil capitol of the world
22:27:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman,_Washington
22:27:12 <Bike> there's a fucking festivavl
22:27:42 <Vorpal> Bike, hey that isn't rural. 29799 inhabitants is quite respectable
22:27:50 <Vorpal> That is a small city by Swedish measurements.
22:28:06 <Bike> it's a small city by american measurements, and are you saying small towns aren't 'respectable'!
22:28:32 <Vorpal> I live in a city that has a population of ~20000
22:28:53 <Vorpal> Can't find up-to-date numbers on the web alas
22:28:56 <Bike> anyway it's surrounded by farms and shit, is the point
22:29:08 <Bike> the university has seed storehouses
22:29:13 <Bike> oerjan: capitil
22:29:27 <Vorpal> Bike, yeah I have like 300 m away to the closest field
22:30:35 <oerjan> i used to be that close to a field too, although it was a pretty isolated one
22:30:42 <Bike> look, i ain't gonna argue about my rurality penis.
22:30:55 <mrhmouse> Bike: I respect your rurality penis
22:31:07 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, I commute daily to a city with around 200000 inhabitants
22:31:11 <Bike> thank you, mrhmouse
22:31:44 <mrhmouse> I went to highschool here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excel,_Alabama but I grew up about fifteen miles from there (and it was the closest town)
22:31:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, eh I just live near the edge of the city.
22:32:12 <elliott> Excel, Alabama, twinned with Word, Germany and PowerPoint, Iran
22:32:15 <Vorpal> mrhmouse, did they use MS Office?
22:32:15 <oerjan> i think the spot i'm living in now may have been a field before this year.
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22:32:23 <Bike> did you have busing?
22:32:51 <mrhmouse> No, we did not have buses. Yes, I have heard the Office joke before.
22:33:28 <Bike> vorpal you're not american are you
22:33:54 <Bike> we had busing at my school but for the people up in the hills it took like an hour so that fucking sucked
22:33:56 <Vorpal> Bike, sure you may not have city buses, but there are always inter-city buses going through even the tiniest places...
22:34:05 <mrhmouse> Bike: Did you mean school buses?
22:34:15 <mrhmouse> Vorpal: We didn't have either of those
22:34:42 <Vorpal> Bike, the city I live in is served by a couple of inter-city lines, and it has one city bus line. Which runs like 4 times per day admittedly.
22:34:44 <mrhmouse> Bike: Ah, we did have school buses. I was the last to get off on my route and the first to get on. The bus arrived at 5:30AM and dropped me off at 4:30PM
22:34:45 <Bike> there's public busing in my hometown (not pullman) but it's like an hour walk from my house to the nearest stop, so, fuck
22:34:56 <oerjan> Bike: you lived in the hills? talk about rural
22:35:06 <Vorpal> Bike, the city I work in has maybe 10-20 city bus lines.
22:35:14 <Bike> why, these hills are the weed capitol of the world, probably
22:35:18 <Vorpal> Bike, what about commuter trains?
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22:35:55 <Bike> mrhmouse: for a second i thought you meant the bus ride took eleven hours
22:36:11 <Vorpal> Bike, I have like a 5 minute walk to the train station.
22:36:25 <Vorpal> So I live pretty close to it yes
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22:36:40 <Bike> Vorpal: commuter trains in the US are a joke.
22:37:11 <Bike> the light rail in portland is actually pretty good, but that's a twenty mile drive from here and it doesn't cross state lines because of hilarious politicking.
22:37:22 <Bike> twenty minute*
22:37:35 <lexande> Vorpal: the city of 100kish i was born in had one intercity bus in each direction per day. smaller cities will typically have nothing at all.
22:37:46 <Bike> as for long distance rail, well, lolamtrak
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22:38:05 <Bike> pullman has pretty alright public busing, but that's because it's full of undergrads with no cars.
22:38:28 <fizzie> Bike: Hey, I've used the Portland Light Rail! (Admittedly only for airport to hotel to airport.)
22:38:35 <fizzie> Bike: If that's the "MAX" thing.
22:38:43 <Vorpal> lexande, I work in a city of around 200k. It has around 10-20 city lines. And a whole bunch of intercity lines going all over the county (since it is the hub of the county as it were).
22:39:04 <lexande> even if a bus is passing through on the highway it won't bother getting off for a town of less than like 20k
22:39:13 <Vorpal> Bike, it is bad there too? Lots of delays and issues with winter weather and so on?
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22:39:49 <Bike> is what bad, the light rail?
22:40:03 <lexande> Vorpal: the city of 100k actually had like 8 city bus lines, that ran circuitously once an hour. though there are larger cities in the US with no public transit.
22:40:07 <Bike> if so the answer is "i don't know, i don't use it" but thankfully trainnerds are here to help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAX_Light_Rail
22:40:36 <Vorpal> lexande, the bus line from where I live to where I work is weird. It goes like 5 different routes during different times of the day. All using the same line number. The time table has a crazy number of footnotes to represent this.
22:40:43 <Vorpal> I think it goes to g or k
22:41:22 <lexande> if you're within a few hours of a major city in the US things are better
22:41:29 <Bike> this reminds me, i'm gonna have to take greyhound back to pullman. pray for me.
22:41:55 <lexande> there are buses to a lot of pretty nowhere places in New Jersey because people from there want to get to NYC without having to park in NYC
22:42:05 <Vorpal> lexande, eh what is a major city by your definition? Remember Sweden as a whole has ~9.5 million inhabitants
22:42:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i think that was actually in canada.
22:42:44 <Vorpal> what is a greyhound in this context? Dog sled??? XD
22:43:03 <oerjan> i recall someone pointing out the other day all of norway has fewer inhabitants than birmingham.
22:43:08 <Bike> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean here, this will probably be less boring.
22:43:39 <fizzie> oerjan: All of Norway has fewer inhabitants than Finland.
22:44:05 <lexande> Vorpal: well, Portland OR or Pittsburgh are just about large enough to have this effect, and are comparable in urban area population to Stockholm
22:44:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, Finland has like 7 million right?
22:44:08 <Bike> wow, five million. i think my metro area might have more than that.
22:44:15 <elliott> I guess I have never been on a bus that goes very far
22:44:26 <oerjan> hm that birmingham guy was completely wrong.
22:44:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it's only barely above Norway.
22:44:44 <Bike> the whole SYSTEM is wrong, man
22:44:46 <ais523\unfoog> Birmingham used to have about a million inhabitants, it's probably more now
22:45:08 <Bike> oh, portland metro is under 2.5 million
22:45:21 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, hi! Also interesting name
22:45:27 <nooodl_> "The family of Tim McLean have brought a [[lawsuit]] of [[Canadian dollar|$]]150,000 [...]" that is a good secret wikilink
22:45:35 <fizzie> Bike: "Half a Norway in the subway at the same time?!"
22:46:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: we just passed 5 millions the other ...february, but i'm not sure if it was this year.
22:46:23 <Vorpal> Oh my god. That is way too many Norwegians to comprehend
22:46:23 <Bike> wait. i meant 'metro' like 'metro area', not 'metropolitan train'
22:46:43 <Bike> the taking of norhelm 1-2-3
22:47:29 <lexande> re portland light rail, it works alright but is nothing special
22:47:38 <lexande> it has to poke along in mixed traffic waiting at stoplights downtown
22:47:52 <Vorpal> Light rail? Is that like trams?
22:48:04 <lexande> "light rail" means a tram built after 1960
22:48:34 <Vorpal> Oh according to WP it is not quite the same
22:48:37 <fizzie> Compared to Helsinki's trams, the MAX trains felt a tiny bit more train-ish, but not by very much. At least from a subjective, non-expert viewpoint.
22:48:42 <Vorpal> Trying to figure out what the different is though
22:49:08 <Vorpal> "Conversely, LRVs generally outperform traditional streetcars in terms of capacity and top-end speed, and almost all modern LRVs are capable of multiple-unit operation. Particularly on exclusive rights-of-way, LRVs can provide much higher speeds and passenger volumes than a traditional streetcar.[citation needed] Thus a single-unit streetcar capable of only 70 kilometres per hour (43 mph) operating on a
22:49:08 <Vorpal> shared right of way is not generally considered "light rail".[citation needed] The latest generation of LRVs is considerably larger and faster, typically 29 metres (95 ft) long with a maximum speed of around 105 kilometres per hour (65 mph).[19]"
22:49:43 <lexande> Vorpal: so, if it just runs in the street in mixed traffic with cars it's dubious to call it light rail (portland has a line that does that and they just call it "streetcar")
22:49:45 <Bike> pff, i don't think a max train has ever gone that fast
22:49:50 <Vorpal> LRV being light rail vehicle
22:50:22 <Vorpal> lexande, is that a question? Because I don't know the answer to that question
22:50:32 <lexande> but if it's anything even slightly better than mixed-traffic-in-the-street-like-a-bus-on-rails, it will be called light rail
22:50:44 <fizzie> Incidentally, they're at the moment introducing (test driving) new trams in Helsinki.
22:50:48 <Vorpal> Half of the pictures on this page looks like proper railways to me, and half look like trams
22:50:58 <lexande> for political/marketing reasons, regardless of anybody's attempt to make stricter technical definitions of "light rail"
22:51:46 <lexande> Vorpal: well, the idea of light rail when done optimally is that you run like a proper railway when you can and like a street tram otherwise
22:52:30 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_tram#Future_acquisitions "Two new trams are start test runs in line service in 2013, and --" some train nerd should go update that, they've already started.
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22:53:08 <Bike> in the city max is like buses, but it runs outside the city too, where it's more trainy
22:53:25 <Bike> outside downtown, whatever
22:53:41 <lexande> so for example if you have a disused railway line that doesn't make it to the city centre, you use that and then use street tracks to get it the rest of the way
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22:54:58 <lexande> (Vorpal: what cities are you familiar with? i can probably come up with a european example)
22:55:35 <Vorpal> lexande, Stockholm and Gothenburg
22:55:48 <Vorpal> One has a metro the other has proper trams
22:56:00 <Vorpal> That definitely runs in the street
22:56:05 <Vorpal> Terribly noisy and old
22:56:48 <Vorpal> lexande, god damn, these things still run. No wonder they are so noisy, given the year of that image... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tram_in_Gothenburgh_1963.jpg
22:57:12 <lexande> anyway Portland is mostly like what i described above (except sometimes the middle of a freeway instead of a disused railway)
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22:57:58 <fizzie> There are still some built-in-the-70s trams working in the Helsinki system.
22:58:04 <lexande> on the other hand maybe you have downtown streets that are small and full of traffic, but wide fast streets further out, in which case you build a tunnel downtown but then run in the street further out to save tunnelling costs
22:58:07 <fizzie> And a couple of museum pieces, but those don't count.
22:58:19 <Vorpal> "When Sweden’s switch to right-hand traffic in 1967 made existing unidirectional trams obsolete, Gothenburg was one of only two cities in Sweden to maintain its city-centre tramway, the other such network to survive being the Norrköping tramway."
22:58:23 <Vorpal> Heh, I didn't know that
22:58:32 <Vorpal> Explains why they are so rare here then
22:59:19 <Vorpal> Mostly just buses nowdays. The city buses in the city I work in runs on biogas though.
22:59:31 <fizzie> Apparently they've got six 1962-1964 trams also used as "backup" when necessary.
22:59:41 <Vorpal> I think I read about there being electric buses in Karlskrona or something
23:00:12 <fizzie> And the oldest of the "museum" trams is originally from 1917, though it's been renovated.
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23:00:32 <fizzie> Oh, that one's just a replica. Aw. :/
23:00:58 <fizzie> The 1955 one is a touched-up original, though.
23:01:23 <lexande> hmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Stockholm#Light_rail_and_tram
23:03:09 <Vorpal> lexande, pretty sure that Stockholm has underground metro and buses exclusively in the city center. And that one tram line yes.
23:03:19 <fizzie> The fact that those all end up in "-banan" (banana) always amuses me. I tend to pronounce it like the fruit.
23:03:24 <Vorpal> The metro goes above ground in some outlying regions though
23:03:59 <Vorpal> lexande, but it *never* goes on normal streets. That would be super-dangerous since it uses a third rail system rather than overhead electrification.
23:04:05 <lexande> this thing considers the nockebybanan, lidingöbanan and tvärbanan to be light rail
23:04:18 <fizzie> The (horse) race track nearby here has a "Travbanan ->" sign pointing at it.
23:04:20 <lexande> though only the last seems to have significant street running
23:04:31 <Vorpal> Oh wait, this is different
23:04:48 <lexande> those three are all a ways out from the centre
23:04:53 <fizzie> The Stockholm metro, aka "tunnel banana".
23:05:06 <Vorpal> Never been on tvärbanan
23:05:26 <Vorpal> Guess that is light rail yes
23:06:16 <Vorpal> "Near Liljeholmen the track is shared with freight traffic in a short section, this being the only place in Sweden where freight and electric trains share the same track."
23:06:27 <FireFly> fizzie: swedes sometimes intentionally prononce it as such, too
23:06:45 <FireFly> fizzie: or rather, some of my friends do, at least
23:07:14 <fizzie> There's a longstanding plan to build a "proper" light rail system in Helsinki, but so far they've just managed to paint some buses orange.
23:07:22 <Vorpal> I live a couple of hundred meters from the regular railroad. It is electrified. It has inter city, commuter and freight trains
23:07:30 <Vorpal> So I have no clue what that WP article meant
23:07:41 <Vorpal> maybe it meant "light rail and freight" or something like that
23:08:39 <fizzie> "In the Helsinki region, there are also other plans to expand the network, through a larger project called Jokeri ("The Joker", after the playing card). This planned expansion, if constructed, would be the first real light rail line in Helsinki, and would involve the conversion of the current Jokeri bus line, line 550, into a cross city tramway similar to Stockholm's Tvärbanan." Heh, they're ...
23:08:45 <fizzie> ... referring to that.
23:09:06 <fizzie> (550 is the bus line with the orange buses.)
23:09:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, as long as Batman doesn't get wind of it, that would work fine.
23:10:08 <FireFly> Did you know that roslagsbanan is the only narrow-gauge track in regular use in Sweden?
23:10:40 <lexande> but yeah, "light rail" is a marketing term that gets applied to things ranging from "only slightly less crappy than a mixed traffic streetcar" to "only slightly crappier than a full underground high-capacity metro"
23:11:22 <Vorpal> FireFly, heh, it is DC too, not AC
23:11:50 <Vorpal> "Motorerna är trefas asynkronmotorer som matas med växelström. I varje motorvagn finns en s.k. traktionsomriktare som omvandlar likströmmen i kontaktledningen (1500 V) till växelström för motorerna. Motoreffekten är 400 kW."
23:12:06 <FireFly> Vorpal: hm, where in sweden do you live?
23:12:21 <Vorpal> FireFly, i Örebros omnejd
23:12:27 <FireFly> Or, as boily would say, what are your approximate coördinates?
23:13:48 <Vorpal> FireFly, never liked Stockholm. Way too big. At least it isn't as bad as Gothenburg when driving. Bloody one way streets over there...
23:14:20 <FireFly> Vorpal: I've heard driving in Lund is like a labyrinth due to one-way roads
23:14:30 <fizzie> If I remember our plans right, we're probably going to be passing through Örebro sometime next summer.
23:15:02 <Vorpal> Gothenburg is pretty much a mesh (and mess) of one-way streets, trams, tunnels and highways. Also a lot of hills. A LOT of hills.
23:15:39 <Vorpal> Not much to see really. Pretty boring city
23:15:40 <FireFly> At least Lund is completely flat
23:15:47 <Vorpal> FireFly, so like Örebro then
23:16:23 <Vorpal> I think I live near like the only hill within kilometers. Actually an "ås" whatever that is in English
23:16:51 <Vorpal> So not very high. Maybe a total of 5-10 meters above the rest of the plains here
23:16:59 <fizzie> (I've said this before, but) trams are one of the traditional "gotcha" questions in the Finnish driver's license theory exam, because they have some right-of-way exceptions. (Usually in the form that there's a picture of a scene, a question on right-of-way, and a tram partially hidden behind a bush.)
23:17:05 <lexande> FireFly: do people commonly answer boily like "40.80, -73.94"?
23:17:24 <FireFly> lexande: something like that
23:17:40 <FireFly> lexande: usually accompanied with approximate body weigh, too
23:18:04 <fizzie> lexande: It's all a part of a project to calculate the center of mass of the channel, you see.
23:18:24 <FireFly> It is conjectured to lie in Hexham
23:18:40 <fizzie> "Under Hexham" sounds more likely.
23:19:06 <lexande> i move around a lot though
23:20:31 <fizzie> I fed those numbers in maps.google, and it's like right next to "Best Hair & Nail Salon" -- a shame that's not Real Fast Nora's.
23:21:30 <lexande> maybe i should try to figure out my average position over the past year
23:22:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember any tram stuff in the driving license stuff, but out of pure survival instinct I would probably give any tram right of way
23:23:10 <lexande> i stayed at (37.77, -122.40) for a while
23:23:38 <FireFly> I've worked around that problem by not having a driver license
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23:24:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: That would generally be the correct answer here, too. (Though usually the point is that, given the limited time, you'd look at the otherwise plausible scenario and answer based on that, instead of noticing the semi-hidden tram.)
23:25:00 <FireFly> lexande: Lexande, near Lexington Avenue? seems.. fitting
23:25:14 <fizzie> (Though the "trams have right-of-way no matter what their approach direction" exception doesn't -- as far as I know, anyway -- override explicit right-of-way signage.)
23:26:34 <fizzie> lexande: You stayed inside a "Budget Truck Rental" building for a while? Well, whatever floats your truck, I guess.
23:26:43 <fizzie> (Yes, yes, "approximate".)
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23:27:33 <Vorpal> Also coordinate systems suck.
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23:28:03 <oerjan> fizzie: what happens if you answer all the questions based on the assumption that there might be a tram hidden somewhere you don't see
23:28:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Probably they'll ask you to try again after studying a bit more.
23:29:08 <Vorpal> I looked at code for converting from whatever NMEA gives you (WGS iirc) to various local coordinate systems and so on. What a confusing mess that is.
23:29:10 <oerjan> fizzie: bloody examinators
23:29:17 <fizzie> oerjan: From what I recall, it's mostly multiple-choice stuff, so you don't get to explain your reasoning.
23:29:51 <oerjan> clearly this is a plot to end humanity.
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23:32:25 <lexande> i think the most amusing place i stayed this year was -36.836, 174.751 or so
23:33:17 <quintopia> fizzie: well, i was assuming we were going to project the actual centroid to the nearest point on the sphere
23:34:26 <fizzie> quintopia: There is no sphere. Also, I've completely forgotten what the center of mass was for, really.
23:34:54 <quintopia> fizzie: sure there is. "the surface of the earth as approximated by a sphere" is a definitely a sphere
23:35:32 <lexande> (that some friends had sailed there from san diego)
23:36:25 <lexande> FireFly: what are your approximate coördinates?
23:37:38 <FireFly> You get commas as decimal points because apparently Google Maps felt like localising them
23:38:41 <fizzie> "We could not understand the location 59,204, 17,89" it also doesn't feel like delocalizing.
23:44:04 <Bike> wait, do you use a comma to separate numbers?
23:44:14 <Bike> like, not as the radix
23:44:42 <nooodl_> i'm european and write comma tuples as (3,4; 5,6)
23:44:50 <Bike> yeah, that seems better
23:45:06 <FireFly> Yeah, that's what we use too
23:45:07 <zzo38> I think the SI standard specifies to use spaces to group digits.
23:45:26 <ais523\unfoog> I think I saw somewhere a suggestion to use half-width non-breaking spaces
23:45:42 <FireFly> Or rather, it's a mix between (3,4; 5,6), (3.4, 5.6) or (3,4, 5,6)
23:45:48 <FireFly> usually it's clear what is meant, anyway
23:46:07 <ais523\unfoog> nooodl_: OpenFormula uses ; as the argument separator everywhere in order to avoid localisation problems if commas are part of the numeric syntax
23:46:36 <zzo38> I always use . as the radix point and nothing as digit grouping.
23:46:51 <FireFly> I usually use . as radix point and spaces to group digits
23:47:06 <FireFly> I use , as radix point when writing by hand, though
23:47:33 <fizzie> Using , as a radix point feels weird, though it is also the Finnish way.
23:47:58 <FireFly> Even for doing calculations by hand?
23:48:08 <FireFly> I grew up with using , there, so I guess that's why it's stuck
23:48:26 <fizzie> I guess maybe by hand it's less weird.
23:48:36 <fizzie> Can't say I've been written that many decimal numbers by hand lately.
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23:53:19 <fizzie> UTR #20 recommends U+2009 THIN SPACE between decimal digits and following fractions, "as in 1 ¾".
23:55:12 <Bike> U+200A HAIR'S BREATH SPACE, U+200B SHADOW WIDTH SPACE, U+200C PLANCK SPACE
23:56:00 <fizzie> `run unidecode '⎖' # this also exists, not sure what for
23:56:02 <HackEgo> [U+2396 DECIMAL SEPARATOR KEY SYMBOL]
23:58:20 <Bike> zero width non-joiner, apparently
23:58:35 <Bike> `run cat $(which unicode)
23:58:36 <HackEgo> [U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER]
23:58:37 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ try: \ print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ print u'Unknown character.'
23:58:58 <Bike> oh so i have no idea how it works.
23:59:03 <Bike> `unicode ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER
23:59:23 <ais523\unfoog> <Randall Munroe> In trying to turn off SafeSearch, a setting on a web form, I rendered my system unbootable