00:00:05 <lambdabot> usage: @choice-add <poll> <choice>
00:00:07 <lambdabot> New candidate "update", added to poll "olist".
00:01:32 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat . run (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:01:33 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `fun' (imported from Debug.SimpleRef...
00:01:43 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:01:44 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
00:01:49 <shachaf> @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:01:50 <lambdabot> (@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olist...
00:02:01 <shachaf> @@ (@read @run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "read"
00:02:17 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 3 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:17 <lambdabot> voted on "update" voted on "update" voted on "update"
00:02:21 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 4 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:22 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
00:02:46 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:02:47 <lambdabot> "(@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olist update) (@vote olis...
00:03:14 <oerjan> i think it's @run which has such a low output limit?
00:03:21 <shachaf> This used to work, though.
00:03:28 <shachaf> That's why Polish is so popular.
00:03:32 <shachaf> I don't remember how I did it.
00:03:37 <shachaf> I might've used @read, which is gone now?
00:03:51 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:04:05 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text . concat $ (replicate 20 "(@vote olist update) "))
00:04:06 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
00:05:36 <oerjan> ^ul (@@ )(@vote olist update)a::::::*******S
00:05:36 <fungot> @@ (@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)(@vote olist update)
00:05:36 <lambdabot> voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"voted on "update"
00:05:55 <shachaf> Well, yes, but that doesn't let you get really high.
00:06:32 <lambdabot> dummy provides: eval choose dummy bug id show wiki paste docs learn haskellers botsnack get-shapr shootout faq googleit hackage thanks thx thank you ping tic-tac-toe
00:06:41 <Bike> @help haskellers
00:06:42 <lambdabot> haskellers. Find other Haskell users
00:08:06 <oerjan> i wonder if the @run cut-down is related to int-e's fixes the other day, he was looking at how that worked.
00:08:18 <shachaf> int-e: did you break lambdabot
00:09:06 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
00:09:51 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
00:14:06 <lambdabot> Poll results for olist (Open): update=932
00:14:29 <shachaf> The trouble is that you can't unvote.
00:14:40 <shachaf> And you can't remove options.
00:15:12 <shachaf> But this does give me the idea to give `olist an incrementing counter.
00:15:20 <oerjan> the obvious solution ^
00:15:28 <shachaf> Well, @karma won't let you add a list of nicks.
00:16:05 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:16:08 <lambdabot> olist ((@karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:16:15 <lambdabot> olist (olist has a karma of 0): shachaf oerjan
00:17:31 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text $ dropWhile (not isNumber) @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:17:35 <lambdabot> olist ( Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Bool'
00:17:56 <shachaf> @@ @run @show @karma olist
00:18:09 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text $ dropWhile (not . isNumber) @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:18:09 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
00:18:24 <shachaf> OK, well, you get the idea.
00:18:56 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
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00:19:14 <Bike> what in sam hill is going on here
00:19:41 <shachaf> @where+ olist olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ "")): shachaf oerjan
00:19:41 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
00:19:53 <shachaf> why am i @where+ing each time
00:20:15 <shachaf> @@ olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ @show @karma olist)): shachaf oerjan
00:20:22 <shachaf> @@ olist ((@run text . filter isNumber $ @show @karma olist)): [...]
00:20:30 <shachaf> @@ olist ((@run text "")): [...]
00:22:53 <oerjan> @tell int-e your new @run is hard to compose with @@ because of the newline
00:23:07 <shachaf> @tell int-e and the spaces
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00:25:29 <oerjan> i think he was trying to simplify the space handling.
00:26:08 <oerjan> hm it's the same as it used to be there
00:26:22 <shachaf> oerjan: p. sure it takes a rocket scientist to do that
00:27:08 <oerjan> i hear the new gravity movie has a joke about "it's not rocket science"
00:27:23 <oerjan> the joke is that it's about how to use a rocket
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00:53:32 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> and I'm not sure it's a second declension male word in the first place <-- fourth, according to wiktionary, so plural is also status
00:54:18 <oklopol> i've been internetless for the last week o_O
00:54:29 <Bike> get some reading done then
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00:56:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> and for words like hawaius <-- in hawaiian the name's Hawaiʻi
00:57:12 <oerjan> i think it's a glottal stop
00:57:29 <Taneb> The murder mystery series my dad's cousin was in HAS AIRED IN THE UK
00:58:00 <oerjan> Taneb: does this mean you're forever shamed by your family
00:58:28 <Taneb> I'm a little annoyed nobody told me
01:01:27 <Taneb> oklopol, I don't know I haven't watched it yet
01:01:40 <Taneb> I think she's playing a recurring character so maybe lots of people
01:01:54 <oklopol> oh i thought this was some reality show
01:02:21 <oklopol> (seriously, although i didn't think your cousin was the murderer)
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02:21:20 <shachaf> https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/9887522
02:23:13 <kmc> is this the awful thing everyone is talking about
02:24:11 <Fiora> https://twitter.com/search?q=%23pennyarcadejobpostings&src=typd&f=realtime ?
02:24:12 <kmc> isn't it awful
02:24:30 <shachaf> kmc is clearly not a bad enough dude
02:24:56 <Fiora> some of the responses are pretty great (in a terribly cathartic way, at least)
02:25:15 <kmc> "A bunch of 25 year-old kids with a ton of talent and stars in their eyes are going to try to get this crap job for crap pay" see this is where I feel pleased with myself about being 25 years old and already cynical enough to see through this shit
02:25:20 <Bike> this is a great ad
02:25:36 <Bike> oh man it just keeps going
02:26:23 <Bike> "a creative and potentially offensive environment"
02:26:24 <shachaf> kmc: p. sure that doesn't say "25-year-old"
02:28:45 <Fiora> maybe like, nerds will finally discover penny arcade are actually horrible people? or like they'll all apply anyways <.<
02:30:43 <shachaf> kmc: do you think of yourself as v. cynical
02:30:47 <shachaf> you don't seem that way to me most of the time
02:31:10 <kmc> PA is like the ultimate example of nerds acting like underdog rebels even after they come to control everything
02:32:10 <kmc> it helps that the comic has been pretty shitty for the last few years so I don't lose much by trying to ignore them
02:32:22 <kmc> it was fucking hilarious for a long time, though
02:33:02 <kmc> shachaf: I do, generally
02:33:15 <Taneb> I see myself as relatively idealistic
02:33:17 <kmc> but I know that I'm pretty unfair in my judgements about myself
02:33:41 <shachaf> keep in mind that kmc's favourite comic strip is jerkcity
02:34:08 <kmc> no, it has to be Achewood
02:34:13 <kmc> but Jerkcity is pretty good too
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02:50:32 <kmc> shachaf: I guess I am cynical about most things but really positive and idealistic about a few and that keeps me going
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02:59:51 <Sgeo> I wonder when Trident will go the way of MSIE
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03:32:06 <shachaf> what is the opposite of "cynical"
03:32:43 <Bike> "optimistic", usually
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03:47:40 <Bike> what, of anything?
03:48:00 <kmc> but can you be copresident
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03:57:32 <shachaf> copumpkin can be president of my heart ♥
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04:04:19 <ion> shachaf can be president of my fart ♥
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04:31:13 <ion> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/hoppe/proj/videoloops/
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05:11:29 <shachaf> higher order, higher rank, higher kinded polymorphism #drugz
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05:13:43 <quintopia> ion: i think i watched a presentation about that for some conference once...
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07:21:36 <L8D> Would you guys consider a simplified form of FORTH to be an esoteric language?
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07:22:33 <Bike> simplified how? have you seen underload?
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07:23:38 <L8D> simplified as in, not a full implementation, but enough to be turing complete and usable for embedded machines
07:24:24 <Bike> i wouldn't really consider that esoteric just because somebody probably already made it for such a machine.
07:24:37 <L8D> I broke down the semantics of the language so that everything could be bootstrapped with no 'special' operators or keywords
07:25:25 <L8D> -1 ? " true " : " false " ; type
07:25:45 <L8D> and the if conditional looks like a ternary expression
07:26:06 <L8D> well, it is.
07:26:47 <shachaf> A language is esoteric iff it has an esolangs.org wiki page.
07:27:52 <fizzie> shachaf: You just done proved that Perl really is an esoteric language. (Not that there was any doubt.)
07:27:55 <L8D> are you asking what the esoteric language named 'semi-colon' is, or are you asking about the code?
07:30:05 <L8D> the first instruction in the code is the '-1', which just adds a -1(the standard value for a true boolean), then the '?' is the instruction for a conditional expression which will run the code between the '?' and the ':' if the item popped from the stack is true, and will run the code between the ':' and the ';' if the popped item is false
07:30:31 <Bike> Then what's "type"?
07:30:34 <L8D> the ';' really just marks the end of the if statement
07:30:35 <shachaf> is ; the comment character
07:31:22 <L8D> 'type' is an intrstuction to pop an item off the stack as a pointer and print it as a string
07:32:02 <Bike> What's -"1 type" do, out of curiosity
07:32:43 <shachaf> Bike: p. sure hott has a meaning for -1-type
07:32:49 <L8D> It will try to use -1 as a char pointer and probably segfault or throw an error depending on whether type checking was enabled
07:32:53 <Bike> p. sure i don't care.
07:32:59 <Bike> L8D: makes sense.
07:33:41 <shachaf> http://comonad.com/reader/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/slides.pdf
07:35:11 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20539:1: Invalid memory address \ -1 1 >>>type<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7FCE1EB7CE70 write-file
07:35:31 <fizzie> Plain "-1 type" stack-underflows, of course.
07:35:42 <L8D> : fib dup 2 < ? : dup 1 - fib 2 - fib + ; ;
07:37:03 <L8D> !forth -1 IF S" true" ELSE S" false" THEN TYPE
07:37:03 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20573:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ -1 >>>IF<<< S" true" ELSE S" false" THEN TYPE \ Backtrace: \ $7FC39808AB30 throw
07:37:42 <L8D> !forth : true s" true " ; : false s" false" ; -1 IF true ELSE false THEN TYPE
07:37:42 <EgoBot> redefined true redefined false \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20617:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ : true s" true " ; : false s" false" ; -1 >>>IF<<< true ELSE false THEN TYPE \ Backtrace: \ $7F25C6EC4B30 throw
07:38:00 <L8D> this is why I created the simplified form
07:38:11 <fizzie> !forth -1 [IF] S" true" [ELSE] S" false" [THEN] TYPE \ so immediate
07:41:33 <Bike> !forth -1 if s" true" else s" false" then type
07:41:34 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.20897:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ -1 >>>if<<< s" true" else s" false" then type \ Backtrace: \ $7FF2BEB33B30 throw
07:41:52 <Bike> !forth -1 [if] s" true" [else] s" false" [then] type
07:41:55 <fizzie> Repeating the same thing is not going to make it work. :p
07:42:00 <Bike> i don't get this.
07:42:17 <fizzie> See some documentation re interpretation and compilation semantics.
07:42:31 <fizzie> !forth : dummy -1 if s" true" else s" false" then type ; dummy
07:42:47 <fizzie> There's a defined "dummy"?
07:42:59 <Bike> !forth dummy type
07:42:59 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21094:1: Stack underflow \ dummy >>>type<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7F886AB35E70 write-file
07:43:06 <L8D> !forth dummy
07:43:14 <L8D> I think dummy is no op.
07:43:17 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21221:1: Stack underflow \ 4 >>>type<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7F6B3345CE70 write-file
07:43:30 <Bike> ok, it's clearly been way too long since i 'learned' forth.
07:43:31 <L8D> !forth ." This is a test"
07:43:35 <EgoBot> \ : dummy ; immediate
07:44:36 <fizzie> !forth s" 'type' prints the usual two-cell string" type
07:44:37 <EgoBot> 'type' prints the usual two-cell string
07:45:24 <L8D> why two cells?
07:45:45 <L8D> couldn’t you fit a pointer into one?
07:46:09 <fizzie> It's an address-and-length pair.
07:46:30 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21579:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ >>>c"<<< foo" . \ Backtrace: \ $7F9583151B30 throw
07:46:53 <fizzie> !forth : bah c" foo" . ; bah
07:47:00 <fizzie> !forth : bah c" foo" count type ; bah
07:47:53 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" -1 type ; bah
07:48:02 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" 1 - type ; bah
07:48:02 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21780:1: Stack underflow \ : bah c" foo" 1 - type ; >>>bah<<< \ Backtrace: \ $7F782C04CE70 write-file \ $7F782C09F348 type
07:48:28 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" count 1 - type ; bah
07:48:32 <L8D> there we go
07:48:52 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" +1 count 1 - type ; bah
07:48:53 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.21876:1: Undefined word \ : bah c" foo" >>>+1<<< count 1 - type ; bah \ Backtrace: \ $7FD3F0895A68 throw \ $7FD3F08ABC68 no.extensions \ $7FD3F08993A0 compiler-notfound1
07:49:00 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" 1 + count 1 - type ; bah
07:49:12 <L8D> !forth : bah c" foo" 1 + count 2 - type ; bah
07:49:55 <fizzie> It's a counted string.
07:50:31 <fizzie> A pointer to a Pascal-style (length, data) pair, instead of the (pointer-to-data, length) pair on the stack, like s".
07:51:16 <fizzie> If you do c" foo" 1+ count it's going to interpret the 'f' as the length.
07:51:52 <fizzie> !forth : x c" foo" 1+ count . . ; x
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07:55:55 <fizzie> !forth : x c" ab" dup 10 0 do dup c@ . 1+ loop drop 1+ 10 type ; x
07:55:56 <EgoBot> 2 97 98 32 32 32 32 32 0 78 ab
07:56:18 <fizzie> I guess "type" stops as the 0 there, even though it might not need to.
07:56:44 <fizzie> (Also not sure what's up with those spaces.)
07:57:47 <fizzie> !forth : x c" ab" dup 10 0 do dup c@ . 1+ loop drop 1+ 10 ." <" type ." >" ; x
07:57:47 <EgoBot> 2 97 98 32 32 32 32 32 0 78 <ab
07:57:56 <fizzie> Oh, maybe it's actually EgoBot that stops at the 0.
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09:12:38 <impomatic> !forth : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ; 12345 C
09:12:47 <impomatic> !forth : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ; 12345 C .
09:13:12 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.24099:1: Undefined word \ 175 >>>C<<< . \ Backtrace: \ $7FAC86EF5A68 throw \ $7FAC86F0BCE0 no.extensions \ $7FAC86EF5D28 interpreter-notfound1
09:15:52 <fizzie> No persistence for you.
09:16:38 <impomatic> !forth : f 46. do dup 1 .r cr dup rot + loop ; 0 1 f
09:16:39 <EgoBot> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134903170 \ 1836311903
09:17:38 <impomatic> The #forth channel should have this!
09:19:07 <fizzie> What, don't they have an eval-bot?
09:19:35 <fizzie> I thought that was kind of a standard feature. The channels I'm on (##c, #perl, #scheme) all do.
09:49:49 <fizzie> Prints a number with a given field width.
09:50:06 <fizzie> I think that "1 .r" is pretty close to "." but maybe there's some subtle difference.
09:50:52 <fizzie> !forth : f 46. do dup . cr dup rot + loop ; 0 1 f
09:50:53 <EgoBot> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 1134903170 \ 1836311903
09:51:03 <fizzie> Ah, right, the automatic space.
09:51:47 <fizzie> !forth : f 46. do dup . dup rot + loop ; 0 1 f \ arguably better, though
09:51:48 <EgoBot> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 75025 121393 196418 317811 514229 832040 1346269 2178309 3524578 5702887 9227465 14930352 24157817 39088169 63245986 102334155 165580141 267914296 433494437 701408733 1134903170 1836311903
09:52:53 <fizzie> I like the "46." shorthand for "46 0".
09:53:28 <fizzie> The whole thing with "double precision" in Forth is kind of funny-weird.
09:53:46 <fizzie> .1234, 12.34 and 1234. are all the same number, a two-cells-wide 1234.
09:54:53 <fizzie> !forth 0.1234 12.34 1234. d. d. d. \ okay, plain .1234 wasn't quite legal
10:35:21 <ion> Are Imperial Measurements outdated? http://youtu.be/r7x-RGfd0Yk
10:42:21 <fizzie> Hrm, my log database update script seems to have barfed at the recent string "\udead\ubeef". Apparently the UTF-8 encoder involved there is strict about standards, and refuses to UTF-8-encode that standalone trail surrogate.
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12:21:34 <ion> http://dolan.naurunappula.com/screen/d5/f7/d5f7f404978714ec/0/787935.jpg
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13:36:16 <metasepia> CYUL 271300Z 04012KT 4SM -RA OVC005 01/00 A2951 RMK SF8 PRESFR SLP996
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13:58:19 <boily> good sloshy morning!
13:59:22 <boily> quintopia: I went through the Takis bag yesterday. I want moar. I'll have to scour downtown's groceries and dépanneurs under exécrable weather just to probably find some.
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14:01:10 <HackEgo> L8D: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:04:00 <boily> shachaf: what would a single ascius be? how many avoidupois ounces in an ascius?
14:07:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:08:58 <oerjan> `learn copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
14:09:25 <oerjan> not a natural born citizen, i guess.
14:09:47 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
14:09:47 -!- nooodl has joined.
14:09:54 <oerjan> darn there's _another_ 3-letter nick clash?
14:10:58 <boily> copumpkin: can you say something memorable, so that your quote-section won't be empty?
14:11:03 <boily> (same goes for impomatic)
14:11:16 <ais523> `addquote <boily> copumpkin: can you say something memorable, so that your quote-section won't be empty?
14:11:19 <boily> oerjan: who's nicklashing with whom?
14:11:20 <HackEgo> 1138) <boily> copumpkin: can you say something memorable, so that your quote-section won't be empty?
14:12:10 * boily sighs... “there we go agais523n...”
14:12:26 <oerjan> coppro|nospoiler with copumpkin, myndzi with myname, tromp__ with trout (just found that), and i guess glogbot with glogbackup although they're not _supposed_ to be here at the same time and who speaks to them anyway.
14:12:38 <ais523> boily: you can just delete it again
14:13:14 <boily> ais523: nah. I like it.
14:13:33 <boily> glogbot: hi there! :)
14:14:51 <oerjan> trout is of course highly variable, and will sometimes clash with conehead instead.
14:14:52 -!- boily has changed nick to oerboily.
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14:15:19 <oerjan> fortunately i rarely have occasion to tab complete my own nick.
14:15:45 -!- oerboily has changed nick to fizboily.
14:15:54 <ais523> sometimes I /nick to a name just to be able to tab complete it
14:16:04 <ais523> however, I've got into the awful habit of tab-completing on one letter
14:16:15 <ais523> because my client favours tab-completing whoever spoke most recently
14:16:20 <fizboily> tab-completing on “f” is dangerous.
14:16:24 <ais523> meaning it's normally right but I sometimes get tab-ninja'd
14:16:46 <oerjan> even "fi" is annoying.
14:17:48 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: <copumpkin> YOU ARE SUCH A PULLBACK <copumpkin> YOU KNOW WHAT? I FUNCTORED YOUR MOTHER LAST NIGHT
14:18:03 <oerjan> he says most of his memorabilia elsewhere.
14:18:13 -!- fizboily has changed nick to boily.
14:18:19 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Do you think like you type?
14:19:10 <boily> oerjan: is there an easy way to aggregate cucurbitaceæ into the PDF?
14:19:58 <oerjan> do we have that, i've forgotten.
14:20:18 * impomatic hasn't said anything interesting to date...
14:20:31 <oerjan> `addquote * impomatic hasn't said anything interesting to date...
14:20:35 <HackEgo> 1139) * impomatic hasn't said anything interesting to date...
14:21:05 <oerjan> oh come on, you knew it had to happen.
14:21:58 <oerjan> boily: to aggregate cucurbitaceæ you need to exploit categorical duality.
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14:25:11 <boily> the impomatiquote was added, with a footnote *smirk*
14:31:12 <oerjan> i seem to have mostly stopped reading pdfs after getting the new laptop, because it no longer opens them inside IE.
14:31:56 <oerjan> and in fact opens them in metro hell.
14:32:28 * boily hugs his fully pinguinized machine
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14:36:35 <oerjan> boily: how's your flash doing? >:)
14:37:24 <boily> oerjan: I don't know what you're talking about. la la la ♪
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14:38:54 <boily> oerjan: I probably went through all major bugs and misfires. the most memorable was on my home desktop, when nvidia drivers swapped the blue and red channels.
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14:46:50 <oerjan> oh dear they must have fixed it in 8.1
14:48:46 <metasepia> ENVA 271420Z 27026KT 9999 FEW020 BKN046 07/02 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 30026G38KT
14:49:23 <oerjan> which one of those represent the storm i seem to be hearing outside the window
14:50:11 <oerjan> hm weather forecast says breeze.
14:56:21 <oerjan> a _little_ unspecific, there.
14:58:19 <boily> you have 26 knot winds going on, which is non-homeopatic.
14:58:29 <boily> no clue about that “670FT”.
14:58:57 <boily> oh hm. a second wind group. I guess the storm hasn't come to ENVA yet.
15:00:02 <oerjan> well the yr.no weather forecast claimed a breeze, not a storm. dunno why it sounds so loud.
15:00:44 <boily> ultra hardcode Norwegian wind?
15:01:21 <oerjan> `frink 26 knots -> m/s
15:01:30 <HackEgo> 6019/450 (approx. 13.375555555555556)
15:02:48 <oerjan> hm ok there's a warning about possible storm by the coast, perhaps it's got further inland than they expected.
15:07:56 <oerjan> a boring fungus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliona_viridis
15:08:24 <oerjan> sheesh, brain, do i have to whack you upside the head
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15:15:36 <boily> oerjan: your head seems to be fille with Impure Brainfsck Derivative Thoughts. please apply brick and reboot.
15:16:03 <boily> ... “green boring sponge”???
15:20:52 <oerjan> i told you it was boring.
15:23:16 <FireFly> Not Impure Fungeoid Derivative Thoughts?
15:28:20 <FireFly> Hm what happened with Magnus in the topic?
15:45:38 <mroman_> I have an idea for brainfuck
15:45:47 <mroman_> it's like brainfuck, but with a logarithmic scale .
15:46:31 <boily> mroman_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/SELECT.?
15:46:48 <FireFly> Hm, what happened to someone's continuous brainfuck idea?
15:47:06 * oerjan had vaguely hoped for Shikhin to add a "Vishy!" or something.
15:47:27 <oerjan> although the way it ended, probably just as well he didn't.
15:48:45 <metasepia> Viswanathan Anand (born 11 December 1969) is an Indian chess Grandmaster and former World Chess Champion.
15:48:51 * oerjan swats metasepia -----###
15:49:13 <boily> eille! no violence against my peaceful bot!
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15:49:21 <oerjan> BUT IT'S HIDEOUSLY BIASED
15:49:49 * boily hugs his bot. “don't listen to angry magnus supporters.”
15:52:34 <oerjan> also google translate thinks "eille" is finnish.
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15:53:23 <oerjan> and means "MATCH", capitals required.
15:54:16 <boily> fr:eille → en:hey.
15:54:36 <oerjan> WHY DOESN'T GOOGLE TRANSLATE KNOW THAT?
15:56:36 <boily> FOR THE SAME REASON FRENCH IS FRANCE FRENCH, AND ARMENIAN IS EASTERN ARMENIAN, AND CHINESE IS MANDARIN.
15:57:06 <boily> (I'd really like to have a Cantonese version. it'd be very useful in Montréal.)
15:58:20 <boily> but the best would be simultaneous multiple languabe output.
16:03:17 <ais523> aren't Mandarin and Cantonese spelled the same?
16:03:27 <ais523> so unless you were doing voice recognition, it make sense to merge them in a machine translator
16:05:27 <boily> no, the gramar and characters used are different.
16:09:04 <metasepia> CYUL 271600Z 31009KT 8SM -SN OVC009 01/00 A2945 RMK SF8 /S01/ SLP976
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16:34:49 <mroman_> Or a Brainfuck Derivative based on the disecrete logarithm problem thingy
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16:37:02 <boily> mroman_: to base a language on an NP problem is vile and nasty. please implement.
16:42:08 <Slereah> What about a travelling saleman language
16:42:13 <Slereah> That salesman sells integers
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16:44:09 <oerjan> boily: you failed to mention Eodermdrome
16:49:46 * boily fails to mention Eodermdrome
16:50:31 <Slereah> Apparently there are some 2^2^n problems
16:51:00 <Slereah> Hitler if he was a complexity class
16:52:13 <Bike> what about O(ackermann).
16:53:01 <FireFly> I recall ackermann⁻¹ appearing in the complexity of some algorithms
16:53:16 <Slereah> Yeah, but ackermann^-1 is pretty fucking soft
16:53:40 <FireFly> also, log*(n) (iterated logarithm)
16:53:45 <Bike> O(fast growing * factorial * exponent * tetration * fuck you fuck you fuck you)
16:53:54 <Slereah> If I had a cancer growing at O(a^-1), I wouldn't even stop eating radium
16:54:05 <Slereah> Bike : Sure, but try finding such a problem!
16:54:19 <Slereah> Such a problem *that doesn't have a less complex solution*
16:54:46 <Slereah> Also my guess is that there's probably a cap on complexity
16:55:23 <boily> what does radium taste like?
16:55:29 <Bike> what's the complexity of finding every problem with ackermann complexity
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16:58:13 <Bike> and the upper limit on complexity is impossibility.
16:59:20 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALL_(complexity)
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17:22:05 <Slereah> Yeah, but I meant more computational time-wise
17:22:35 <Bike> 'forever' is a time!
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17:33:57 <FireFly> Would ALL include undecidable decision problems?
17:35:35 <FireFly> i.e. is the halting problem in ALL, or is it not classified as a decision problem despite having a boolean answer?
17:36:20 <Bike> halting problem is in RE
17:36:25 <Bike> (which is a subset of ALL ofc)
17:38:52 <Bike> since if a program halts it takes finite time to demonstrate thath.
17:39:09 <Bike> but yes, ALL is a strict superset of RE, and so includes impossible problems.
17:41:24 <Slereah> But not undefinable problems!
17:43:32 <Bike> iunno. might as well put them in there too.
17:47:11 <Slereah> Undefinable problems cannot be inputed in a Turing machines
17:47:36 <Slereah> Though they can be in a SUPERTURING MACHINE
17:47:41 <Bike> i'll just use an undefinable machine.
17:47:52 <Slereah> Like a Turing machine with continuous cells
17:48:23 <Slereah> Or a Turing machine with infinite starting input
17:54:10 <Slereah> Why is EXPTIME considered unfeasable
17:54:28 <Slereah> I ran some exptime programs
17:54:46 <quintopia> boily: isn't it just the greatest food invention ever? why did it take so long to get invented?
17:55:05 <Bike> Slereah: because for realistically large problem sizes you're usuallyy fucked.
17:55:44 <Slereah> Feasable isn't the same as "Fuck it's too big, let's give up
17:56:59 <Bike> if you're giving up you're basically saying it's infeasible.
17:57:36 <Bike> wikipedia has a good example of an exptime problem: figuring out perfect play from a given chess position is exponential in the size of the board.
17:57:58 <Bike> and guess what, people actually don't compute perfect play in chess.
17:58:11 <Slereah> They might if they played on a 4x4 chess set!
17:59:33 <Slereah> "Chess Attack: played on a six-row five-column board, Chess Attack follows standard chess rules, and can be regarded as an endgame variant."
18:00:13 <quintopia> i didn't know that was proven exptime...yes there are exp many games from a position, but i didn't know it had been proven that there wasn't some complicated heuristic that ended up being as good as perfect
18:00:29 <Bike> 'as good as perfect' is pretty hard.
18:00:41 <boily> quintopia: my mouth was burning with the force of a thousand limes.
18:00:47 <quintopia> but "prove it doesn't exist" is also hard
18:01:18 <ion> http://turbo.sos.gd/
18:01:42 <quintopia> boily: and i only sent the regular ones. they also have NITRO, which are the same but habanero based.
18:01:57 <Bike> Slereah: i can prove that "while (1) {}" never halts but that doesn't make the halting problem feasible, you know?
18:02:51 <Slereah> Well yes, but you can always solve an EXP problem
18:02:56 * boily has gained a new quest! “Find a bag of NITRO TAKIS”!
18:02:56 <Slereah> Given sufficient time and space
18:02:57 <ais523> Bike: doesn't it halt when someone interrupts it/
18:03:02 <Slereah> So it's not really comparable
18:03:14 <L8D> Bike: do you ever sleep?
18:03:56 <L8D> I was last on here about 11 hours ago
18:04:10 <L8D> and you were here then
18:05:26 <boily> L8D: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_presence.html
18:06:14 <quintopia> http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/its-thanksgiving-so-we-asked-some-brits-to-label-the-us-stat?s=mobile
18:06:47 <L8D> http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/its-thanksgiving-so-we-asked-some-brits-to-label-the-us-stat
18:07:18 <boily> bwah ah ah ah ah :D
18:07:30 <boily> that's a new one, Big Scotland.
18:09:13 <boily> `learn Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
18:10:45 <Bike> Slereah: what's the point of having 'feasible' mean 'possible'?
18:14:51 <Slereah> Because that's what it means?
18:15:01 <Bike> 'possible' could be said to mean that we can imagine some actor, possibly in a science-fiction novel, considering it feasible, while 'feasible' means that i can be that actor.
18:15:08 <Slereah> Sharing the same root as french "faisable"
18:15:09 <myname> what does hackego actually say is he already has information about something?
18:15:20 <Bike> fuck etymology
18:15:32 <Slereah> Well yes, but if you go by that
18:15:34 <Bike> myname: i don't think `learn checks.
18:15:43 <Slereah> Polynomial can be unfeasable!
18:16:36 <Bike> a particular O(1) algorithm might be infeasible but most of the ones we use aren't.
18:17:24 <Slereah> That sounds a bit racist to judge a class from a few bad apples!
18:18:01 <quintopia> s/a few bad apples/the majority of the bunch/
18:19:27 <Bike> i know you're joking and all but don't trivialize racism, please.
18:19:27 * boily colle des pommes sur Slereah
18:20:06 <Bike> feasibility is an informal concept. it is what it is.
18:20:28 <quintopia> the golden pommes de soleil or ... the silver pommes de la lune?
18:20:54 <quintopia> Slereah: all Unnecessary programs are O(0)!
18:21:22 <Slereah> Well there's only one O(0) program
18:21:30 <boily> quintopia: I'd go with a golden apple. you know, something something kallisti something...
18:21:42 <Slereah> I'm not sure O(0) makes sense
18:23:14 <Bike> "[f(x) = O(g(x)) if and only if there is a positive constant M such that for all sufficiently large values of x, f(x) is at most M multiplied by g(x) in absolute value."
18:23:25 <Bike> an annoying definition i can never remember
18:24:04 <Bike> this implies that if f = O(0) then f is 0, probably.
18:24:09 <Slereah> I guess O(0) makes sense for the empty program then
18:26:41 <Bike> multiply the Ms of an O(1) by -i, and voila.
18:27:43 <Slereah> Are the computational classes machine dependant?
18:28:03 <Slereah> I seem to recall that some algorithms are faster in certain paradigm
18:28:26 <Bike> that's what oracles are for, probably.
18:29:22 <Slereah> I mean within the TC class of computers
18:29:55 <Bike> but like, say for ripple-carry addition, you say it's linear in the number of digits; that basically means that the time is a linear function of how much an operation taken as primitive (adding digits) takes
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18:34:50 <quintopia> boily: isn't eris the moon goddess?
18:35:06 <quintopia> why do i associate eris with the moon somehow?
18:36:01 <quintopia> Bike: that implies that O(0) and O(1) mean the same thing :)
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18:37:52 <boily> psychological answer.
18:38:05 <myname> if i have a function f: A x P(A) - > R
18:38:15 <myname> what the hell is f(.,A)?
18:39:12 <quintopia> and . means plug in the whole set?
18:39:32 <quintopia> eh i don't know. but it's still a function into the reals
18:39:52 <boily> P(A) means you had issues with your mother when you were young.
18:40:33 <myname> i have never seen f(. in any way
18:42:17 <ais523> myname: I've seen people use - as an implicit lambda variable
18:42:25 <ais523> as in, f(_,A) means \x.f(x,A)
18:43:19 <myname> well, it says it should be a vector
18:46:49 <lexande> myname: what do you mean? it depends what f and A are. for example if A is the empty set then it's the empty function.
18:47:21 <Bike> i think myname is asking about notation.
18:49:15 <lexande> oh, yeah presumably that's a lambda variable
18:49:43 <myname> that sounds strange in this context, but i will take it for now
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18:57:57 <shachaf> ais523: Sometimes people even use two -s! It's great.
18:58:44 <shachaf> As in Hom(f(-),-) ~ Hom(-,g(-))
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19:00:59 <boily> shachaf: I refuse you adjunction.
19:01:08 * boily still doesn't understand adjunctions. :(
19:01:23 <ais523> boily: I only understand them from the axioms, and intuitively
19:01:25 <myname> i don'2 get the advantage of saying "f(.,A) is in the core" instead of "for every x in A, f(x,A) is in the core"
19:01:28 <ais523> I don't get the in-between bits
19:01:59 <ais523> like, in a closed category, you have (A×B)=>C === A=>(B=>C)
19:02:06 <ais523> which is the main interesting point
19:02:42 <ais523> the main interesting thing you can do in a closed category is to tensor morphisms backwards
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19:27:44 <shachaf> ais523: Well, that's usually the definition of =>.
19:28:15 <shachaf> (Note that the two =>s on the right side aren't the same thing.)
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19:30:06 <quintopia> boily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YLy4j8EZIk
19:32:55 <boily> that video will be at home watched.
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19:37:47 <ais523> that's the definition on objects
19:37:55 <ais523> there's a definition on morphisms too but it's more complex
19:40:40 <boily> (->) -> (->) => >>> -> => -> >>> × >>> -> => -> >>> => (->) -> (->)
19:41:42 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean.
19:42:17 -!- muskrat has joined.
19:42:18 <shachaf> Or maybe I do understand, actually, will look again in a little while.
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20:34:14 <scarf> fizzie: are you named after a train? someone in another channel just said that the train they were on wasn't fizzie
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20:36:47 <fizzie> scarf: I am not named after a train. But that sounds curious.
20:37:12 <HackEgo> 820) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
20:37:24 <scarf> fizzie: they just referenced HackEgo quote 820
20:37:38 <scarf> must be following this channel for some reason
20:37:41 <boily> other people can HackEgo?
20:37:44 -!- Oj742 has joined.
20:37:51 <HackEgo> Oj742: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:38:05 <boily> scarf: why on fungot would people want to follow the chännel...
20:38:06 <fungot> boily: which includes themselves. if they were fnord. amazing restaurant. even the wrong bits be painted as a string? examples that i have
20:38:22 <fizzie> (I tried googling for "fizzie train" but mostly got "Fizzie Vixen"'s Vine stuff.
20:38:34 <kmc> traaaaain!
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20:39:40 <boily> oh fungot. I just understood fizzie's pectopah.
20:39:40 <fungot> boily: i use a combination of ( for the bytecode compiler could work well
20:40:07 <boily> fungot: I'll let that unbalanced ( slip this time, you vile unkarmic bot.
20:40:07 <fungot> boily: and my debugging usually revolves around ( define low-level in terms of s-expressions ( i don't expect you to go to a public school? remind me not to
20:40:19 <boily> fungot: you're stretching your luck too far, young'un.
20:40:20 <fungot> boily: i can't believe i said that
20:40:26 <boily> fungot: me neither.
20:43:40 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
20:44:23 <fizzie> I don't remember what 476 is about at all.
20:44:51 <HackEgo> 476) <Taneb> I think it's fizzie against everyone atm <Taneb> AND EVERYONE IS WINNING <Taneb> EXCEPT FIZZIE
20:45:09 <Bike> maybe it was a race to make you not remember itself
20:46:45 <boily> Taneb: do you know?
20:47:10 <Taneb> it was the other Taneb
20:47:21 <fizzie> Ah, the usual explanation.
20:47:35 <boily> the one who Taneb is not. mystery explained.
20:48:00 <Taneb> `?people who taneb is not
20:48:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?people: not found
20:48:04 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
20:48:07 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
20:48:19 <Bike> can't help but notice a lack of ngevd
20:48:47 <Bike> `pastelogs AND EVERYONE IS WINNING
20:48:59 <fizzie> It seems to have been a #esoteric-minecraft quote.
20:49:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1861
20:49:46 <fizzie> About a dorf furtress game.
20:49:56 <fizzie> In which I guess there's a convention to name folks after #esotericers?
20:50:01 <Bike> how do you 'win' dorf furtressx
20:50:26 <int-e> @tell oerjan I didn't add any new newlines to @run or change the space handling, all I did was increase a constant. I didn't touch the code, though I considered it. https://github.com/int-e/lambdabot/commits/master is up-to-date except for the 200 -> 350 change in lambdabot-core/src/Lambdabot/OutputFilter.hs (textwidth).
20:51:36 <fizzie> <elliott_> Taneb: Who is on a rampage currently? <Taneb> Just fizzie <Taneb> He's a mason
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20:51:58 <fizzie> <Taneb> What do you call a dorf with no nose? <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie? <Taneb> Yup
20:52:03 <fizzie> Sometimes reading stuff feels kinda weird.
20:52:18 <Bike> where'd you get it
20:52:24 <Taneb> fizzie, I presume you're not a dorf, too
20:52:28 <fizzie> It came with the face.
20:52:35 <Taneb> Speaking of dwarf fortress
20:52:42 <Taneb> @tell Phantom_Hoover ...
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21:16:02 <L8D> : SUM ( + SIZE 1 EQUAL NOT ) WHILE ; 10 RANGE SUM .
21:16:41 <L8D> or: : sum ( + size 1 = ! ) while ; 10 range sum .
21:17:35 <boily> !forth : SUM ( + SIZE 1 EQUAL NOT ) WHILE ; 10 RANGE SUM .
21:17:37 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.3307:1: expected control flow stack item \ : SUM ( + SIZE 1 EQUAL NOT ) >>>WHILE<<< ; 10 RANGE SUM . \ Backtrace: \ $7FBF20466988 throw \ $7FBF20476918 c(abort") \ $7FBF20476AC8 cs-item? \ $7FBF20477440 CS-ROLL
21:20:55 <fizzie> Presumably that's the suggested Forthoid, and not actual Forth.
21:21:04 <fizzie> !forth : sum 0 begin over while + repeat ; 0 1 5 2 4 3 sum . \ sum of a 0-terminated list
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21:26:19 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover Phantom__Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
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21:26:38 <boily> sorry. couldn't resist.
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21:37:19 <FireFly> Sometimes I'm happy I'm not on the List
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21:54:58 <fizzie> Thing I like: when someone writes a long S-expression in Scheme (or other such), and needs to put some two dozen )s after the last non-) character, and decides to put them like http://sprunge.us/INhI
21:56:21 <fizzie> (I've seen that happen a total of one time.)
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22:25:52 <Taneb> When someone writes "CRINGE" on IRC you know it's a pun well done
22:27:43 <impomatic> !forth : i begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then drop2 state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; i | 2 2 + .
22:27:44 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.3951:1: Undefined word \ : i begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then >>>drop2<<< state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; i | 2 2 + . \ Backtrace: \ $7F226ACC9A68 throw \ $7F226ACDFC68 no.extensions
22:27:59 <impomatic> !forth : int begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then drop2 state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; int | 2 2 + .
22:28:00 <EgoBot> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.3997:1: Undefined word \ : int begin #tib @ >in @ = if tib 50 accept #tib ! 0 >in ! then bl word find dup if state @ = if , else execute then else dup rot count >number if state @ if last @ dup @ last ! dp ! then abort then >>>drop2<<< state @ if ['] lit , , then then again ; int | 2 2 + . \ Backtrace: \ $7FCE3F9ADA68 throw \ $7FCE3F9C3C68 no.extensions
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22:38:20 <oerjan> nice of the storm to fully hit just as i was going back home
22:38:37 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/ampdE1n.gif
22:39:19 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 48m 52s ago: I didn't add any new newlines to @run or change the space handling, all I did was increase a constant. I didn't touch the code, though I considered it. https://github.com/int-e/lambdabot/commits/master is up-to-date except for the 200 -> 350 change in lambdabot-core/src/Lambdabot/OutputFilter.hs (textwidth).
22:40:14 <oerjan> @tell int-e i guess it was done before your time then.
22:40:27 * oerjan looks suspiciously at elliott
22:40:45 <shachaf> oerjan: might also look suspiciously at mokus
22:41:28 <oerjan> irssi's tab completion, so primitive
22:41:46 <oerjan> cannot take me trying to tab complete someone not here. or its own name.
22:42:40 <int-e> Maintainer: James Cook <mokus@deepbondi.net>
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22:44:14 <int-e> oerjan: you asked who mokus is.
22:45:40 <oerjan> is that somewhere in lambdabot's code.
22:45:52 <int-e> look at the .cabal file
22:46:24 <int-e> https://github.com/mokus0/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot/lambdabot.cabal
22:46:37 <int-e> or http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lambdabot :)
22:46:48 <oerjan> http://www.deepbondi.net/ looks promising.
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23:02:36 <oerjan> @tell slereah <Slereah> Why is EXPTIME considered unfeasable <-- "For every polynomial-time algorithm you have, there is an exponential algorithm that I would rather run." -- Alan Perlis
23:03:00 <Bike> ---------[---------
23:03:48 <oerjan> Bike: are you removing tabs in brainfuck
23:05:08 <int-e> ugh. +[,>+<---------[>-]>[<+++++++++.>->]<<]
23:05:57 <int-e> I probably messed that up, I'm out of practice.
23:07:34 <int-e> I should simply do +[,---------[+++++++++.[-]]+]
23:08:49 <oerjan> int-e: you're not halting at eof
23:09:19 <int-e> so which eof convention do you favor?
23:09:41 <lambdabot> Poll results for olist (Open): update=932
23:09:41 <oerjan> 0 usually, since that's what the bots around here use
23:10:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i just realized that @vote won't show the list of names anyway, so you still need to @poll-results
23:10:05 <int-e> so ,[---------[+++++++++.[-]],]
23:11:19 <Bike> wait, how's the middle loop ever halt
23:11:34 <Bike> or. wait. nevermind.
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23:33:47 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't understand that quote
23:34:02 <oklopol> wait i read that as alan turing
23:35:03 <oklopol> (that that it changes anything)
23:35:43 <oerjan> oklopol: it means that the formal complexity class of an algorithm may not mean much in practice.
23:35:54 <oerjan> example: simplex method
23:36:33 <oklopol> yeah okay i guess it changes things if it was someone who lived much after turing
23:36:53 <oerjan> also that constant overhead may be more important than O() class for problem sizes you actually care about
23:37:05 <oerjan> at least that's how read it.
23:37:18 <kmc> one remarkable thing about EXPTIME is that it's actually known to be different from P
23:38:00 <oerjan> it's not _that_ remarkable, time and space hierarchies are pretty fine masked _separately_.
23:38:19 <oerjan> it's just hard to compare time with space.
23:38:21 <kmc> saying it's remarkable is somewhat tongue-in-cheek
23:38:39 <kmc> given all the classes which aren't known to be distinct from P
23:38:43 <kmc> time with space, or deterministic with nondeterministic
23:38:54 <oerjan> wait can you say "fine masked" in english
23:39:04 <kmc> i'm not familiar with that phrase
23:39:08 <kmc> whatsit mean
23:40:06 <FreeFull> Then there are the classes for quantum computers
23:43:17 <Bike> still not familiar with this idiom
23:44:28 <oerjan> now that has to be actual english.
23:45:04 <Bike> perhaps i'm just thick.
23:46:03 <oerjan> next try "fine-grained"
23:48:25 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah, P ?= BQP ?= NP is real important
23:49:31 <oerjan> i think it would be funny if someone found out a way to simulate quantum systems efficiently with classical computers, and as a side effect broke RSA
23:49:45 <kmc> "Love #StackOverflow? Want it for your team? Check out http://quandora.com" ok you can't just take the name "Quora" and stick a few more letters in the middle
23:50:06 <kmc> that would be funny
23:50:24 <kmc> I think it would be funny to get a totally non-constructive proof of P = NP
23:51:08 <kmc> or a proof which produces a polynomial-time algorithm which is way too slow to ever use, and which resists improvement
23:51:18 <kmc> or a proof that P ?= NP is independent of the axioms of ZFC
23:51:58 <shachaf> i think the point is that kmc likes to frustrate mathematicians
23:52:18 <Bike> five worlds etc
23:52:26 <oerjan> what about an algorithm for SAT that seems to work extremely fast but which no one can prove that it always works
23:52:42 <Bike> imo, a good paper
23:52:53 <kmc> that is a good paper
23:53:14 <oerjan> maybe i should read it once, i guess it has all those options.
23:53:27 <shachaf> now, are you referring to http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FiveWorlds.html or http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Five_Worlds
23:53:40 <shachaf> (have found the actual paper but i like that those two links were first)
23:53:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i vaguely suspect not the latter
23:53:59 <FreeFull> What about a proof that P > NP?
23:54:23 <oerjan> FreeFull: well then you're just breaking mathematics
23:54:24 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, well, i vaguely suspect not you
23:54:55 <oerjan> P <= NP is pretty trivial.
23:55:14 <oerjan> (all P turing machines are also NP turing machines)
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23:57:56 <kmc> likewise P <= BPP <= NP because a BPP machine is like a NP machine but it has to accept on "lots of paths" not just one
23:58:28 <kmc> we did an exercise about the class BPP^NP which my friend decided means "Black Panther Party with NP oracle"
23:58:40 <Bike> puttin that in my next sci-fi epic
23:59:23 <oerjan> wait is BPP <= NP really obvious
23:59:47 <oerjan> NP doesn't allow you to count paths