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01:11:46 <lambdabot> Poll results for olist (Open): update=933
01:12:15 <lambdabot> Poll should be closed before you can remove it.
01:12:20 <lambdabot> vote <poll> <choice> Vote for <choice> in <poll>
01:12:24 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
01:12:27 <Bike> you can't close it yet!
01:12:32 <Bike> what if someone votes for... another option!
01:12:58 <oerjan> such a profoundly secure system.
01:13:13 <Bike> you're destroying democracy
01:13:35 <shachaf> Bike: that's pollitics for you
01:13:58 <oerjan> Bike: it's ok the ballot was stuffed anyway
01:14:18 <Bike> http://dynasty-scans.com/system/releases/000/008/952/cw-a-4.png a depiction of shachaf
01:15:05 <Bike> the demon thing, obviously, you fascist.
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01:16:32 <shachaf> i don't know what's going on help
01:18:52 <Bike> «Primary duties will be to place and monitor trial carcasses as part of searcher efficiency and carcass removal trials [...] on the Island of Maui.» in CowHub news
01:24:19 <oerjan> an opening for a cow orker, i take.
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04:41:29 <shachaf> @remember ddarius The secret to usable software is not discoverability, not documentation, not consistency; it's preview and undo.
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05:12:34 <ion> Star Wars Downunder http://youtu.be/mhTn8cjm9ZM (the subtitles have a translation to English :-D)
05:20:22 <lambdabot> Bike said 3d 11h 3m 31s ago: i don't think opencl c even has provisions for exceptions
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05:22:36 <kmc> Vorpal: regarding your claim that 'nobody in "real life"' cares about gendered language, https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015 has about 50 people posting in the space of a few hours to say that they do in fact care
05:22:55 <kmc> mostly men, some women, many people with "real names" and geographic locations in their github profiles
05:24:26 <zzo38> I have played Dungeons&Dragons game on Wednesday; I have almost disabled the prisoner; he is now in a coma.
05:24:54 <kmc> what will you do now?
05:26:23 <zzo38> Ensure he is disabled some more, would be the next thing to do. And if the captain gets angry, work around that, too (possibly with illusions).
05:26:40 <kmc> use your illusion
05:27:58 <zzo38> O no, I don't want to waste it.
05:29:32 <shachaf> silly kmc, internet people aren't real
05:29:35 <shachaf> and nor are people who disagree with me
05:29:47 <shachaf> it's possible that i'm not helping right now
05:31:25 <Bike> if i'm not real how do you explain my invention of the steam-powered bike gear
05:31:47 <kmc> shachaf: i visited https://twitter.com/catcafecalico while I was in Japan
05:32:56 <shachaf> imo there should be a pointless cat
05:34:36 <ion> What’s a catca and what’s fecal ico?
05:36:02 <shachaf> kmc: good pull request comments
05:36:06 <shachaf> i like how there's always that person
05:36:19 <ion> shachaf: Or fifty of “that person”s.
05:36:21 <kmc> ion: see that can't happen in Hangul!! best writing system ever
05:37:00 <Bike> great, now i want to see korean puns.
05:37:55 <ion> I don’t understand why the world hasn’t just switched to Hangul.
05:37:57 <shachaf> ion: in this case it looked like there were only a few
05:38:10 <kmc> shachaf: "stop wasting your time on this issue!" *ensures that even a trivial fix becomes a multi-hour fight*
05:38:47 <kmc> ion: it's not so great if your language doesn't conform to Korean phonetics
05:38:57 <kmc> if you like distinguishing "r" from "l" or "g" from "k", for example
05:38:58 <ion> The Internet fight or fight response
05:39:11 <shachaf> Perhaps we should invent a writing system to end all writing systems.
05:39:30 <ion> @google xkcd standards
05:41:37 <zzo38> Hangul is not a bad system, although you can definitely make up a lot of new kinds, for conlangs and whatever else you like to do; I don't really like the IPA symbols which are racist and inelegant; I would prefer to compose symbols based on if it is dental, approximant, etc, even for impossible combinations, sounds out of human range, simultaneous speech, implied but unspoken sounds, and so on.
05:41:53 <zzo38> And Blissymbols is OK too, for meaning rather than sound.
05:42:14 <zzo38> None of these are perfect though, and probably they cannot really intended to be anyways.
05:42:31 <shachaf> zzo38: you should invent a writing system
05:42:38 <shachaf> and serve documents written in it via gopher
05:44:18 * kmc = 기간 미갈읏텔 ?
05:45:00 <Bike> are those just normal hangul? my term font is terrible
05:45:11 <kmc> they're copypasted from google translate
05:45:49 <Bike> gi gan mi gal eus tel
05:46:01 <Bike> creative 'mcallister' i must say
05:46:03 <shachaf> kmc: i like how "only women actually care about this" and "only men actually care about this" are both arguments against making the change
05:46:28 <zzo38> Sure I could serve them by gopher or whatever protocol, although probably if I was making such a thing I should write the METAFONT programs to draw the symbols in such a writing system.
05:48:17 <kmc> 사캅 벤-기기? no idea how to do "chaf" tbqh
05:48:39 <kmc> and s/sh didn't seem to be distinguished, based on reading hangul on street signs in japan >_>
05:49:09 <kmc> Bike: yeah well like I said, l/r and g/k are the same
05:49:11 <shachaf> That's OK, no one really does.
05:49:18 <Bike> i know, i'm just amused
05:50:03 <shachaf> http://josefwigren.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/full-hangul.jpg has separate g and k
05:50:24 <kmc> colorful :)
05:50:30 <kmc> oh i forgot about that letter
05:50:38 <Bike> what are the greyed out ones.
05:50:58 <kmc> the black keys
05:52:05 <Bike> you could learn korean.
05:52:19 <shachaf> that sounds like a lot more trouble than learning an alphabet
05:52:24 <kmc> i want to learn korean
05:52:26 <kmc> but don't know how
05:52:31 <kmc> gotta get some books or something
05:52:34 <kmc> books are a lot of effort
05:52:47 <shachaf> move to samsung digital city
05:53:31 <shachaf> because that poor consonant is disregarded in many languages
05:54:52 <shachaf> since there is also a vaguely kind of similar system of consonants and vowels
05:56:31 <kmc> you mean the one that gets transliterated as "ng"?
05:56:46 <shachaf> Wait, maybe I'm mixing things up.
05:57:26 <kmc> ᄋ can also appear as an initial but there it means nothing at all
05:57:57 <shachaf> Right, that's the usage I mean. It can appear as non-initial?
05:58:24 <shachaf> "nothing at all", not even a glottal stop?
05:58:26 <kmc> yes, as a final consonant it's "ng"
05:58:43 <shachaf> That's odd. I thought this alphabet was supposed to make sense. :-(
05:59:13 <kmc> as in 삼성 "samseong"
05:59:51 <kmc> shachaf: they used to be separate but got conflated down the line
05:59:51 <ion> Star Trek Tᄋ
06:00:04 <kmc> hangul had more letters back when it was supposed to represent all the sounds in Classical Chinese
06:00:25 <Bike> how much of the phonology of classical chinese do we actually know
06:00:53 <shachaf> So do you pronounce it as a glottal stop or do you slur syllables together?
06:00:59 <kmc> i don't know man
06:01:07 <kmc> i ought to learn korean though
06:01:35 <shachaf> a language with no gendered third-person pronouns
06:02:00 <ion> why not Zoidberg
06:02:31 <shachaf> should i also learn korean
06:02:42 <ion> We should all switch to Lojban
06:02:46 <Bike> you should learn double korean.
06:08:43 <ion> Help, i seem unable to get in touch with Simon Marlow. I have sent a message on Google+ and two messages on IRC on different days.
06:09:33 <shachaf> He was online in IRC aa few days ago.
06:10:03 <shachaf> By a few days ago I mean, uh, earlier today.
06:10:14 <shachaf> Oh, you sent IRC messages.
06:11:03 <ion> I’ll try email next. But one would think Google+ and IRC would, like, work.
06:12:06 <shachaf> I didn't know there was such a thing as a Google+ message.
06:12:43 <shachaf> Maybe he prefers Facebook messages.
06:13:37 <ion> If you send messages to non-Facebook friends on Facebook, they won’t get notified. They’ll see the message if they happen to check out the obscure “probably spam” place nobody checks.
06:14:16 <ion> Perhaps Google+ does something similar, but that’s why i tried to contact him on IRC after no response.
06:14:49 <shachaf> Maybe you can go work at Facebook and then send him an internal message.
06:15:18 <ion> Perhaps i could become a billionaire, buy Facebook and send him a memo from the boss.
06:16:20 <shachaf> p. sure there are better things to buy at that price
06:20:49 <ion> Some people abbreviate the Finnish word “eli” (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eli#Finnish) as “l.” That’s like abbreviating “pretty” as “r.”
06:21:23 <ion> The name of the letter l isn’t “el” either, it’s “äl”, so that doesn’t explain it either.
06:21:43 <ion> Also, why abbreviate a three-letter word? :-P
06:22:17 <kmc> not to be confused with "ål"
06:22:45 <kmc> en långsträckt fisk med säreget fortplantningsbeteende
06:22:49 <ion> FWIW, there’s no å in Finnish
06:23:37 <shachaf> and there's no l in christmas
06:23:54 <ion> Depends on how you pronounce r
06:23:59 <kmc> säreget fortplantningsbeteende och uppskattat kött
06:24:27 <ion> saturnalia – both r and l!
06:26:23 <shachaf> ion: do they in finland that russian has n different 's's
06:26:47 <ion> I think you a verb.
06:27:31 <kmc> for some value of finland
06:31:18 <shachaf> `run echo $'#!/usr/bin/env python\n# coding: rot-13\ncevag h"Uryyb, Jbeyq!"\n' > /tmp/whoaaa.py; chmod +x /tmp/whoaaa.py; /tmp/whoaaa.py
06:31:29 <kmc> i need to learn enough korean to implement `안녕하세요 anyway
06:32:47 <ion> shachaf: whoa, dude
06:32:59 <ion> Why doesn’t Haskell have that‽
06:33:03 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: Maybe you can implement `안녕하세요 for us?
06:34:06 <kmc> ion: ghc -pgmF hth
06:34:27 <ion> kmc: That’s GHC. :-(
06:34:38 <kmc> "everyone knows haskell is really just ghc"
06:34:43 <ion> Fair enough.
06:37:17 <zzo38> What I think it should include is some way to convert identifiers containing non-ASCII characters into ASCII
06:39:21 <kmc> > let 안녕 = "hello" in 안녕
06:40:48 <zzo38> For example, there could be some extension to support a declaration like "\49493\12920\122223" = magic; and then it will treat "magic" as a synonym for the non-ASCII identifier.
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07:00:06 <zzo38> However, in this Dungeons&Dragons game, I did notice a hole in the floor in the bedroom hallway, directly above the prison cell. It is a small hole, but large enough for a coin or leech or small key to fit. Perhaps this key was intended that someone might drop it into this hole? (I am not going to do that, though.)
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07:42:31 <zzo38> Is any cellular automaton a convolution filter followed by a scalar function on each cell? From what I can tell, they are able to be represented in this way; Conway's Game of Life can easily be done like this, for example.
08:05:03 <kmc> mostly depends what you mean by "cellular automaton", I expect
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08:14:07 <zzo38> What do *you* mean by "cellular automatic"?
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08:15:32 <kmc> well, what if I make a CA where each cell computes a complicated nonlinear function of its neighbors
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08:15:42 <kmc> that would not fit in your scheme right?
08:16:03 <zzo38> I suppose then it wouldn't, if the number of states isn't finite
08:16:12 <zzo38> So you are correct about that
08:16:18 <kmc> and if it is finite then it still works?
08:17:15 <zzo38> I expect it to (although maybe if something else strange is done, it might not?)
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08:19:10 <zzo38> If the number of states is infinite though, then I would think a convolution followed by a scalar (even if nonlinear) function would still work in *some* cases, but not all
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08:59:11 <zzo38> While playing backgammon earlier this week, I have noticed that although doubles will give you more moves, it also makes you more likely to get stuck, so there is that counterbalance involved.
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09:07:35 <zzo38> I have, even before, noticed how sequent calculus can be considered as a game between two players, the first player who selects a rule and applies all variables, and the second player must select a sequent above the line to continue with. Whoever has no legal moves loses. I think there are also other ways to consider a logic as a game, but I do not know what they are or how they work. Do you know?
09:11:29 <kmc> it's common (and useful imo) to view predicate logic as a game between two players, ∃ and ∀
09:11:51 <zzo38> A proof of some sequent then corresponds to a strategy for the first player to be guaranteed to win from such a position.
09:12:14 <zzo38> kmc: I have read about that, but didn't study it much to know much about how such thing is working.
09:15:28 <kmc> put a formal in prenex normal form, then ∃ and ∀ take turns selecting values for their respective variables; ∃ wins (and the formula is true) if they end up at a true propositional statement, ∀ wins (and it's false) if they end up at a false one
09:15:34 <kmc> i think that's how it goes
09:16:16 <kmc> it might not be that useful to view totally abstract logic this way, but thinking about two players has helped me keep straight complicated quantifiers in e.g. definitions of continuity, or VC-dimension, or what have you
09:17:03 <zzo38> O, I can understand now, how you mean!
09:19:51 <kmc> recall that TQBF / QSAT is PSPACE-complete, so any problem in PSPACE can be phrased as such a game
09:20:17 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not it useful to view abstract logic in such a way either, however, I have noticed that it can be made up other way around; first make up the game and then the sequent calculus which implements such a game. For example a subtraction game where the first player wins with numbers that aren't divisible by four, encode such a thing in sequent calculus and that is one way to define the logical system where theorems are numbers wh
09:20:34 <kmc> also sometimes you have another player "Nature" who chooses randomly, and then you can talk about the probability of ∀ or ∃ winning
09:21:09 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK, you can have that too. I didn't think of quite that, but I did think of similar things actually.
09:21:12 <kmc> and then there are things like interactive proof systems or Arthur-Merlin proofs or zero-knowledge proofs, which are also phrased as games between multiple players, usually with access to randomness and some (possibly differing) bounds on their computational power
09:23:20 <kmc> zero knowledge proofs are so cool
09:25:47 <zzo38> I do not know what "Arthur-Merlin proofs" means, however.
09:26:03 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur%E2%80%93Merlin_protocol
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09:27:31 <zzo38> Notice that in the system I have defined, draws may be possible (although I find it is usually useful to consider draws as a win for the second player, or at least draws by repetition, anyways)
09:31:11 <zzo38> OK, now I looked at Arthur-Merlin
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09:46:20 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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10:35:36 <kmc> why is there no cat cafe in san francisco
10:42:24 <kmc> when I said "put a formal" above i meant "put a formula"
10:43:09 <Taneb> kmc, what is a cat cafe
10:44:22 <kmc> only the best sort of retail establishment there is!!!!
10:44:45 <kmc> it's a cafe and a bunch of cats live at the cafe and you can pet / play with / snuggle with the cats at the cafe
10:49:15 <kmc> thats different
10:49:16 <shachaf> then your house can be a cat cafe and i can visit and pet / play with / snuggle
10:51:45 <Fiora> I want to go to a cat cafe
10:52:16 <shachaf> do cat cafes dispose of cats in evil ways when they get old
10:52:16 <Halite> If an oscilloscope can be set to display vectors, why do we still use pixels?
10:52:33 <fizzie> I don't think there's a cat cafe in the whole of Finland.
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10:53:47 <kmc> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
10:54:03 <Taneb> There is one in England and they are making another
10:54:04 <fizzie> With a name that long, you'd think it'd be more impressive.
10:54:12 <Taneb> But they make them in very far away places
10:56:03 <kmc> they have some in Paris, Berlin, and München as well
10:56:18 <kmc> and Budapest
10:56:21 <kmc> all the cool places
10:56:23 <Taneb> There are none in York or Hexham
10:56:25 <kmc> sorry hexham
10:56:57 <kmc> i suggest moving to Berlin or Seoul
10:57:08 <kmc> although, Finland is a cool place and doesn't have one
10:59:06 <kmc> Halite: lots of reasons, one is that LCDs are a lot nicer than CRTs (and OLED displays nicer yet) and they're inherently pixel-oriented
11:01:13 <kmc> vector graphics doesn't really do full color images, shading, etc.
11:01:48 <kmc> you can have graphics stacks that mix vector and raster pretty far down the pipeline, but you want something uniform when you actually send graphics to a display device, and pixels make sense there
11:02:19 <kmc> some old video games did use vector graphics and directly control the deflection of a CRT beam in the manner of an oscilloscope
11:02:31 <kmc> http://www.jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm has an incredible amount of detail on how that works
11:03:16 <kmc> an original _Asteroids_ game looks absolutely stunning
11:04:12 <kmc> brilliant bright white CRT with beautiful trails and perfectly smooth lines
11:04:16 <kmc> monochrome so there's no shadow mask even
11:04:18 <Halite> Can and do vector LEDs exist?
11:05:06 <int-e> maybe ... thinking of laser printers
11:05:30 <kmc> the objects are drawn by a 10-bit DAC so there's a notional 1024x1024 resolution, which is already very high for 1979, but also I believe that straight lines get smoothly interpolated between those points
11:05:39 <kmc> in theory you could also do smooth circles etc. with analog oscillator circuits
11:06:26 <kmc> Halite: I don't think "vector LEDs" refers to any kind of well-defined thing... you could invent a vector display technology that uses LEDs in some capacity and call it "vector LED", sure, but it would be pretty different from either a CRT or a traditional LED or LCD display
11:06:53 <int-e> (But that involves mechanical mirrors. Now I'm sure you can do some fance micromechanics stuff and make it work, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that. :) )
11:07:09 <kmc> is what possible
11:08:22 * int-e is pondering how to actually control a beam of laser light in CRT like fashion.
11:08:45 <kmc> stupid photons with their zero electrical charge
11:09:09 <int-e> (laser printers cheat; they just deflect the beam along a single scan line and rely on the printing drum's rotation for vertical displacement)
11:09:22 <kmc> there is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-optic_effect
11:09:29 <kmc> specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pockels_effect and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_effect
11:10:12 <kmc> I think Media Lab used one of these in their "trillion frame per second" camera
11:10:38 <int-e> And even laser printers to have be getting replaced by LED printers, because they take less space and less delicate mechanics; building a row of many LEDs is chepaer.
11:10:49 <kmc> interesting
11:11:41 <kmc> http://web.media.mit.edu/~raskar/trillionfps/
11:13:13 <int-e> urgh, what did I do to that sentence? s/to have be/are/
11:13:15 <kmc> or maybe not, maybe it was just a material which produces electrons when hit by light, and they deflected those electrostatically
11:14:00 <kmc> either way the idea is to vary the electric field rapidly so that photons coming from a single point end up spread across a linear detector according to the time they arrived, with picosecond resolution
11:15:15 <kmc> and you do that again and again for many points in a scene, illuminated by laser pulses the same way each time
11:15:23 <kmc> and there's your "trillion frame per second" movie
11:16:00 <int-e> http://1.2.3.11/bmi/www.mit.edu/~velten/press/content/pictures/bottle_photo.jpg looks silly. (note the lack of absence of trade marks)
11:17:56 <fizzie> What's that 1.2.3.11/bmi stuff?
11:18:26 <fizzie> (Link didn't work for me with that; worked without.)
11:18:44 <int-e> fizzie: a "transparent" proxy that I keep forgetting about.
11:19:03 <int-e> so the correct link is http://www.mit.edu/~velten/press/content/pictures/bottle_photo.jpg
11:19:34 <kmc> does your organization legit own 1.2.3?
11:20:08 <kmc> i spent a few summers at the school which owns 129.186.*.* ; that was super confusing
11:20:12 <kmc> wonder if they got it at a discount
11:20:19 <fizzie> 1.2.3.0/24 was reserved for bogonity, IIRC.
11:20:47 <fizzie> inetnum: 1.2.3.0 - 1.2.3.255; netname: Debogon-prefix.
11:21:02 <kmc> what does that mean exactly
11:21:15 <fizzie> (It's part of APNIC's range, I remember reading about it when they were introducing 1/8. Both the /24's containing 1.1.1.1 and 1.2.3.4 were reserved.)
11:21:34 <int-e> kmc: certainly not. (it's a mobile ISP, I'm sure they don't really care about RFCs as long as most customers are happy)
11:21:51 <kmc> so are they available for private use in the same manner as 10/8 and 192.168/16?
11:21:54 <int-e> s/are happy/don't complain/
11:21:56 <kmc> or are you "not supposed to use them" in some way
11:22:02 <fizzie> You're not supposed to use them, no.
11:22:09 <int-e> and I have no clue why they aren't using 10.*
11:22:35 <fizzie> Perhaps they were already using 10.* for some other internal purpose.
11:22:44 <int-e> (I mean, they do use it; my assigned IP is 10.165.126.240)
11:22:55 <kmc> also I'm amused that MIT can't get any official IPv6 space because IANA is still pissed off that they own 1/256 of the entire IPv4 space
11:24:48 <int-e> I didn't know that, that is funny. How are they expecting MIT to move off the IPv4 space if they don't even get IPv6 space to migrate to?
11:25:12 <kmc> well I don't know the details, but probably they have to commit to give it back eventually, or something, and MIT is unwilling to do it?
11:25:15 <kmc> i don't know really
11:25:23 <kmc> heard this second- or third-hand
11:25:58 <Halite> On a different topic, can a vector image composed of lines be separated into a raster image and the slope of the line at each point on each rasterisation?
11:26:46 <kmc> Halite: I'm not sure what you mean but it sounds like you want to chop up a single vector image into a grid of many vector images (one per "pixel") and yes, you can do that
11:33:54 <Halite> Anyway, is it also possible to create a perfect zoom system for raster images?
11:38:43 <kmc> depends what you mean by "perfect zoom system" but probably no
11:39:33 <kmc> definitely you can't take a raster photograph and zoom in arbitrarily far
11:39:42 <kmc> there's a finite amount of information in the original photograph
11:40:38 <kmc> if your raster image is actually a line drawing, you can try to convert back to a vector image and zoom on that
11:40:49 <int-e> this sounds relevant: http://null-ptr.blogspot.co.at/2008/06/vector-representation-of-fonts-on-gpu.html (I believe I've even seen a paper with a similar idea somewhere, but I don't remember any details.)
11:41:35 <int-e> (Not related to "perfect zooming" but to the previous idea of assigning vector images to pixels)
11:42:37 <int-e> and of course there's all the marching cubes stuff that is also related somehow.
11:46:21 <int-e> oh, "meandering triangles" is a cute term. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marching_squares#Meandering_triangles )
11:53:41 <Halite> My battery power is so freaking low
11:57:32 <Halite> How low can my battery get before my iPad refuses to budge?
11:58:05 <kmc> i could not care less
12:00:59 <Halite> Or 10-based bound gone
12:01:19 <kmc> please redirect these updates to #esoteric-halites-ipad
12:01:41 <kmc> or /dev/null
12:01:43 <Halite> Oh haws I'm monologue nag yet again
12:01:57 <kmc> not sure what all those words are, but yes
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12:36:59 <int-e> . o O ( how do you produce ⪓ in (La)TeX? )
12:39:50 <kmc> int-e: nice!
12:42:06 <Halite> I have something to show you on the PC
12:42:52 -!- Halite has changed nick to Halite[tablet].
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12:46:06 <Halite[PC]> Anyway I wanted to show you https://www.dropbox.com/s/cpujagd162oos0x/JSB%20File%20format.html -- I made it earlier this year. I'd like a bit of advice on how to make the format vector.
12:46:41 <Halite[PC]> Warning: don't try to go on it in Internet Explorer
12:53:10 * int-e feels reminded of http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1994-10-17/
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12:56:45 <int-e> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/single-page.html ... that's really stretching the meaning of the word "tiny".
12:59:59 <Halite[PC]> What if we could mix pixel and vector displays so we can fill while being of high quality? The vector display could override to prevent filling problems.
13:00:48 <int-e> anyway, that's why I had this association; defining a vector graphics format is a bottomless pit. it's easy enough to hack something together that supports straight lines and filling with solid colors, but people tend to want gradients, transparency, curves, various line styles, arrows on lines, clipping, and so forth.
13:00:58 <fizzie> int-e: Closest I know is \lesseqqgtr from amssymb; that's the ⪋ -- but of course it's not quite the same. (Supplemental Mathematical Operator is very good when it comes to <s, >s and slanted -s.
13:01:21 <int-e> fizzie: Oh sorry, that was a rhetorical question. I don't actually need the symbol. :)
13:10:30 <nooodl> $3 {\leq \atop \geq} 4$ looks ok to me
13:10:57 <nooodl> anyway what a profoundly useless symbol?!
13:18:42 <int-e> nooodl: hmm, your \geq is \geqslant?
13:19:18 <nooodl> it isn't, i just didn't consider the slant important
13:21:18 <fizzie> Unicode makes a difference there.
13:21:25 <fizzie> (And therefore so should you.)
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13:40:25 <fizzie> I like the regular 2x2 grid blocks.
13:41:29 <fizzie> (Better resolution with the dots though, that's for sure.)
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13:51:57 <Halite[tablet]> My standard JSON bitmap file would be .jsb, but now I've made .vjsb
13:53:15 <Halite[tablet]> So far an image would contain arrays of the for max,ya,xb,yb,
13:55:36 <Halite[tablet]> E.g. Bitmap [row, row, row, ...] where row is a colour array, vector [[colour, xa, ya, xb, yb], ...]
13:58:37 <Halite[PC]> https://www.dropbox.com/s/rh5r0wgbikq61va/JSB%20Vector%20format.html it's worth a try
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14:03:02 <Halite[PC]> FreeFull: Cool. Now make that in JSB vector form using the link I provided.
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14:15:58 <FreeFull> Halite[PC]: I can't find anything about that format
14:16:51 <int-e> [0,0,10,10,0,10,10,0] is a cross?
14:18:16 <nortti> [[colour,0,0,10,10], [colour,0,10,10,0]] would be the right one, I think
14:19:17 <nortti> what format is the colour in?
14:19:41 <Halite[PC]> [[colour, "0", "0", "10", "10"], [colour,"0", "10", "10", "0"]]
14:25:32 <int-e> [["red",0,0,30,30],["red",0,30,30,0],["blue",30,15,34,4],["blue",34,4,45,0],["blue",45,0,56,4],["blue",56,4,60,15],["blue",60,15,56,26],["blue",56,26,45,30],["blue",45,30,34,26],["blue",34,26,30,15]]
14:26:47 <nortti> why are you using '[]' instead of '()' ?
14:26:52 <int-e> ["l"/*line*/,style,x0,y0,x1,y1,x2,y2,...]
14:27:13 <int-e> "Square brackets hold arrays"
14:27:53 <int-e> JSON has no parentheses as far as I know.
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14:29:05 <int-e> that said I'm happy to read ["l","red",0,30,30,0] as (l 'red 0 30 30 0) :)
14:29:34 <Halite[PC]> I see you're using "l" as future syntax to denote that the object is indeed a line and not a curve?
14:30:16 <int-e> well, not a (filled) polygon, was my idea
14:31:09 <int-e> but the main point was that there should be *some* sort of marker to make the thing extensible.
14:32:14 <Halite[PC]> I will indeed add one as the format expands
14:32:42 <Halite[PC]> Who can make an image of a stickman? :D
14:34:37 <int-e> ask this guy? http://www.etch-a-sketchartist.com/etchasketches/
14:38:03 <int-e> http://www.gvartwork.com/gvetchedintime/gallery.php -- this guy is better, and still active.
14:42:59 <nortti> shitty stick figure: [["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,0], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 1,5], ["#ffffff", 6,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 3,5, 3,10], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 0,9], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 6,9], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 0,13], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 6,13]]
14:47:32 <Halite[PC]> and its head is an N even if you do make it #000000
14:47:50 <Halite[PC]> at this rate I'll have to set bg notation
14:49:06 <Halite[PC]> eg. ["#000FFF", ["#ffffff", 1,5, 5,6]]
14:49:07 <nortti> ["#000000", ["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,0], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 1,5], ["#ffffff", 6,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 1,0, 6,5], ["#ffffff", 3,5, 3,10], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 0,9], ["#ffffff", 3,6, 6,9], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 0,13], ["#ffffff", 3,10, 6,13]]
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14:50:02 <int-e> scaled up: [["#000", 110,100, 160,100], ["#000", 110,100, 110,150], ["#000", 160,100, 160,150], ["#000", 110,150, 160,150], ["#000", 130,150, 130,200], ["#000", 130,160, 100,190], ["#000", 130,160, 160,190], ["#000", 130,200, 100,230], ["#000", 130,200, 160,230]]
14:50:39 <Halite[PC]> ["#fff", ["#000", 110,100, 160,100], ["#000", 110,100, 110,150], ["#000", 160,100, 160,150], ["#000", 110,150, 160,150], ["#000", 130,150, 130,200], ["#000", 130,160, 100,190], ["#000", 130,160, 160,190], ["#000", 130,200, 100,230], ["#000", 130,200, 160,230]]
14:52:01 <int-e> Halite[PC]: you changed the format :P
14:55:04 <nooodl> http://lpaste.net/5940427395184984064 rainbow spiral!
14:55:15 * int-e is staring at carry patterns for Zeckenhaus addition ... they look funny.
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14:55:25 <nooodl> should add a background i guess
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14:59:26 <int-e> e.g. http://sprunge.us/WDdd
15:09:27 <Halite[PC]> "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" "The red junglefowl.
15:11:54 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: coelurosaurians hth
15:13:27 <Halite[PC]> It's a good answer. After all, the first chicken was born out of a junglefowl-chicken hybird's egg.
15:14:15 <oerjan> <kmc> shachaf: i visited https://twitter.com/catcafecalico while I was in Japan <-- /me doesn't get whether that is a café for cats or with cats. also, what is with all the turkish trending on twitter? i guess besiktas might refer to the football team.
15:14:25 <int-e> http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/020119.html ("Both of you want to buy the last can of dog food. This raises the question, who of you came first?")
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15:15:04 <myname> i hate nichtlustig for not working with my custom css
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15:16:07 <oerjan> ok http://wandertokyo.com/cat-cafe-calico/ explains in english
15:16:53 <oerjan> for your coffee and toxoplasmosis needs.
15:17:25 * oerjan is probably infected anyway.
15:19:29 * oerjan wonders what might be the youngest ancestor of chickens that _didn't_ have eggs.
15:20:07 <oerjan> probably older than vertebrates.
15:21:05 <oerjan> well i guess it might have to be just before sex.
15:21:19 <oerjan> so something protozoan
15:24:08 <oerjan> int-e: don't look at today's comic hth
15:26:40 <int-e> oerjan: hmm. the usual. only one in ten of those are funny anyway :)
15:27:00 <int-e> and ... another smiley.
15:27:46 <Halite[PC]> anyway oerjan, we don't have eggs how do we multiply
15:28:28 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: women have egg cells.
15:29:56 <Halite[PC]> what came first, the bacteria or the egg cell
15:30:14 <int-e> bacteria divide and conquer
15:30:19 <oerjan> twist: the bacteria were the egg cells all along?
15:30:57 <oerjan> i have a tooth like this after a biking accident http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/131031.html
15:31:22 <oerjan> i guess that means i should hunt down and kill the guy i collided with. or his teeth, maybe.
15:31:41 <oerjan> too bad i was too shocked to remember who it was.
15:31:57 <int-e> "RADICAL TOOTH" hmm :)
15:32:47 <int-e> but apparently, no tooth symbol in unicode
15:34:01 <oerjan> maybe there's a hieroglyph and you have to know the word for tooth in egyptian to find it.
15:35:21 <Slereah> I have a middle egyptian textbook
15:35:24 <nortti> http://shapecatcher.com/ ?
15:35:49 <Halite[PC]> unfortunately Google Translate doesn't support egyptian
15:36:08 <nortti> oh, that is broken atm
15:36:16 <oerjan> oh wait unicode doesn't even use the egyptian word, just a numbering scheme
15:36:20 <Slereah> Let's see the Gardiner egyptian hieroglyph sign list
15:36:33 <Slereah> Part D, PARTS OF THE HUMAN BODY
15:36:56 <Slereah> There is "lips with teeth" and "two lips and teeth"
15:37:41 <Slereah> PARTS OF MAMMALS has jawbone of an ox and tusk
15:39:46 <HackEgo> [U+9F89 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9F89]
15:39:57 <oerjan> not much of a name there either.
15:40:28 <int-e> Definition in English: uneven teeth; to disagree
15:41:37 <HackEgo> [U+9F6C CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9F6C]
15:41:50 <int-e> And ... Definition in English: uneven teeth; to disagree
15:42:22 <oerjan> is that one of those simplified vs. traditional ones?
15:42:27 <HackEgo> [U+0002 DUNNO] [U+0003 DUNNO] [U+001F DUNNO] [U+001D DUNNO]
15:42:59 <oerjan> Slereah: unicode is not magic. only pain.
15:43:42 <HackEgo> [U+0048 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
15:44:20 <int-e> well, as far as I can see, one has four lambdas (I suppose those are the teeth?) and the other one has only one.
15:44:34 <oerjan> hmm http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/131023.html
15:46:46 <int-e> Lemmings are a recurring theme. My favourite goes something like "You want me to buy a bicycle just because all your friends have one, too? ..." "... If all your friends were to jump off a bridge, would you also ..." "... Never mind. I'll buy you the bicycle."
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15:48:35 <int-e> Ah, not a bicycle, just a scooter. http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/020906.html
15:48:57 <int-e> (and the bridge is a cliff.)
15:51:45 <Halite[PC]> int-e: well if my family did then I would
15:52:38 <myname> int-e: something tells me you might be german
15:52:57 <int-e> myname: that is interesting. what gave me away?
15:53:14 <myname> int-e: i can tell from being one myself ;)
15:53:47 <oerjan> wait do we have a german inflation here
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15:54:20 <myname> you make it sound like it is something bad
15:54:36 <oerjan> well if we go by history there'll soon be billions of you
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15:58:51 <Halite[PC]> Is there a negative time period before the Big Bang? I've always wondered that
15:59:56 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: there's endless speculation?
16:01:04 <oerjan> the math breaks down. you can make all kinds of theories.
16:01:13 <Slereah> Well it doesn't really break down
16:01:20 <Slereah> But it hinges on some other things
16:02:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure PETA approves of this http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/130912.html
16:10:33 <oerjan> i'd recommend buying more matching sets http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/130820.html
16:15:32 <int-e> oerjan: btw I'm not sure whether you're trying to make me feel guilty about linking to that comic, but if so, you're succeeding.
16:16:09 <mroman_> Ok. So. A language based on the knappsack problem makes no sense if you have infinite storage
16:16:42 <mroman_> The idea would have been, that a value N occupies N cells
16:18:10 <mroman_> so it'd esseantilly be bitfuck
16:18:20 <Halite[PC]> a value N could also take log_2(N) cells
16:18:57 <Halite[PC]> which makes me think that a log_1(N) = N
16:19:46 <mroman_> my second idea is that you have a 2D (or 1D) storage
16:19:53 <mroman_> and a value N distorts nearby cells
16:20:03 <mroman_> and the higher N, the higher and more cells it distorts
16:20:37 <mroman_> like uhm 256 distorts cell[i +- 1] by 128, cell[i +- 2] by 64 and so on
16:20:53 <mroman_> which is also boring, if you have infinite storage
16:21:02 <mroman_> (i.e just use every 1000iest cell)
16:21:14 <mroman_> Conclusion: Everything is boring if it has infinite storage.
16:22:59 <mroman_> I have no idea what that even is.
16:23:32 <mroman_> Is that the stuff that is larger than finite stuff
16:23:33 <Halite[PC]> a number that is less than infinity and more than any finite number
16:23:41 <Halite[PC]> there are multiple transfinite numbers
16:23:52 <mroman_> I have no idea how that would work
16:24:02 <mroman_> It does not make any sense at all (intuitively)
16:24:11 <mroman_> How can something be bigger then finite
16:24:21 <mroman_> when everything that is not infinite, is probably finite
16:24:43 <Halite[PC]> What I mean is that they ARE infinite but they're not always going to be equal another of their kind
16:25:00 <Halite[PC]> e.g. let's say w is a transfinite ordinal. 2w > w. w+1 > w
16:25:19 <mroman_> It avoids infinity + 1 == infinity?
16:25:40 <Halite[PC]> it's not exactly infinity because there is a number more than w
16:25:55 <Halite[PC]> and with w you can make an infinitesimal -- lets name it e
16:26:13 <mroman_> don't bother explaining it to me
16:26:17 <mroman_> I won't understand it. Seriously.
16:27:11 <mroman_> I don't have enough math background to even understand the explanations ;)
16:27:34 <Halite[PC]> I bet you have computational background though
16:28:33 <mroman_> I'm the guy who replaces your broken Ethernet Cable
16:29:23 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: 2w = w, you mean 2w > w hth
16:29:38 <mroman_> I'm that kind of computer scientist
16:29:38 <oerjan> *Halite[PC]: 2w = w, you mean w2 > w hth
16:29:42 <mroman_> not really a scientist at all
16:30:18 <Halite[PC]> oerjan: I understand. That's in the surreals. The hyperreals keep communative operations.
16:30:32 <oerjan> no, not surreals. ordinals.
16:32:17 <oerjan> no, it only holds for infinite w.
16:32:54 <oerjan> the 2w = w holds for limit ordinals.
16:35:24 <Halite[PC]> the limit of {-infinity, ..., x} is x. and that's an infinite set.
16:35:29 <mroman_> Halite[PC]: The only reason I'm here is because I read some paper thingies back when I was a teenager
16:36:04 <mroman_> and I wrote interpreters etc.
16:36:59 <oerjan> Halite[PC]: is that supposed to contradict me somehow?
16:37:04 <fizzie> oerjan: You can just refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Omega-exp-omega-labeled.svg then it's all so clear.
16:37:09 <oerjan> (there are no negative ordinals.)
16:37:56 <oerjan> fizzie: thank you, i was pondering linking to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic#Cantor_normal_form
16:38:10 <Halite[PC]> the limit of {0, 1/w, 2/w, 3/w, ..., 1, 1 + 1/w, 1 + 2/w, ... x} is x
16:38:14 <fizzie> But that's not a picture at all. :/
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16:39:14 * oerjan has no(*) idea why Halite[PC] keeps dragging surreals and hyperreals into this. ((*) not true)
16:40:42 <Halite[PC]> Ah yes. The practice of lieing then admitting.
16:42:34 <Slereah> Hyperreals are pretty neat!
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17:12:50 <Slereah> Do you have an apple for a face
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18:07:15 <mroman_> I'm still on the search for a book abouth math
18:07:43 <Taneb> I have one about 17 equations that changed the world
18:07:53 <Taneb> I think that's at least partially about maths
18:08:02 <Taneb> One of them is actually an inequality which makes me sad
18:08:18 <mroman_> I'm looking for one that is ordered in order of discovery
18:08:35 <mroman_> so I can aquire math knowledge in the order that makes sense
18:09:08 <quintopia> mroman_: http://www.math.wustl.edu/~sk/books/newhist.pdf ? :P
18:09:19 <quintopia> mroman_: also, the historical order frequently doesn't make sense
18:10:33 <mroman_> When you learn math now you get teached stuff like uhm fourier stuff
18:10:40 <mroman_> but you don't actually know enough
18:10:51 <mroman_> it feels like you're missing something that was invented before that
18:11:41 <mroman_> I figured learning in historical order should prevent me from stumbling upon anything I don't know the basics of
18:11:44 <quintopia> mroman_: no seriously. frequently, the simplifying assumptions that make a topic teachable frequently come after the major theorems are discovered in another context
18:12:04 <quintopia> for instance, newton's calculus, which he used to do all that physics stuff
18:12:29 <mroman_> isn't that the same as leibniz's calculus?
18:12:46 <lexande> mroman_: leibniz's notation is much better/easier to use
18:13:09 <lexande> but also, neither of them had any kind of rigorous foundation for it
18:13:29 <lexande> it involved significant handwaving
18:14:11 <lexande> and you put in some non-integrable function and stuff blows up and you don't know why
18:14:42 <lexande> they basically didn't know what they were doing, but managed to get it right enough for physics anyway
18:17:33 <lexande> that said, i definitely wish i'd had more background before being taught fourier
18:18:28 <lexande> i think it's pretty common to charge into it as quickly as possible for the benefit of the physicists in the audience
18:35:39 <mroman_> Maybe they had no idea what they were doing
18:35:48 <mroman_> but I'm sure they contributed a lot to math
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19:18:54 <Bike> i think the problem with newton's calculus is more that he did all this insane crap with geometry to deal with planets
19:19:07 <Bike> seriously, have you tried reading the principia, it's crazy
19:28:16 <Bike> i kind of sympathize with where mroman_'s coming from though, not that i'd actually recommend a fully historical order. mroman_, have you heard of "Mathematics: Its Content, Methods and Meaning"? it's supposed to be real good
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19:58:59 <Halite[PC]> I'm going to make a computer algebra system. Wish me luck.
20:01:48 <FreeFull> Bike: What about Leibnitz's calculus?
20:04:23 <Bike> what about it?
20:05:34 <FreeFull> How does it compare to Newtons? I've never actually looked at the work Newton and Leibnitz did on calculus
20:05:51 <Bike> beats me. i don't even know what he was using it for.
20:06:01 <Bike> i've only read part of newton's because historians seem to like it.
20:06:11 <Bike> i would guess that they're both near incomprehensible to my modern eyes, though!
20:07:08 <FreeFull> Well, it probably took some time to settle on notation
20:07:45 <Bike> not notation. the general forms of arguments.
20:08:08 <Bike> this is like, practically before algebraicization.
20:08:31 <Bike> they weren't just doing the same kind of math in a different alphabet, is what i'm sayin.
20:09:02 <Bike> though this reminds me, did you know that the derivative was invented by pierre de fermat?
20:10:27 <FreeFull> Writing everything out in words is notation too =P
20:10:45 <FreeFull> Fermat was a smart guy, no doubt
20:11:52 <Bike> they're different words, i'm telling you.
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20:28:16 <Halite[PC]> Did you know that the formulae for area of a circle are also related to other integral-based formulas in that they describe the 'inside' of a semantic or geometrical object?
20:28:42 <Bike> you didn't learn that in calculus?
20:29:23 <Bike> i did so many problems about finding the volumes of ridiculous shapes, you don't even know
20:29:25 <Halite[PC]> I should still have the knowledge of a child in Year 6.
20:29:55 <Bike> what's the volume of gabriel's horn
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20:32:33 <Bike> also you don't need to give me or anyone digits of e really
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20:33:41 <myname> i consider e much more beautiful than pi
20:34:02 <Bike> i consider the dalles more beautiful than stupid numbers WHAT NOW NERD
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20:36:24 <Bike> there's a train across the entire horizon.
20:37:01 <Bike> do i need to take some lunch money
20:37:43 <zzo38> Do you prefer to use 2pi as a constant? (When this is done, it is called tau, and I have used it in some programs such as a Csound extension which does this)
20:38:20 <Bike> i just write 'half the circumference of the unit circle' like gauss
20:38:22 <Bike> as god intended
20:39:14 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe, but it is sometimes useful (other times, using pi is useful; other times neither is useful)
20:39:44 <zzo38> But I do think e seems a more beautiful than pi, too, I suppose
20:40:09 <Bike> that's it, give me your lunch money or i'll stuff you in a locker
20:40:22 <Halite[PC]> Phantom_Hoover: Why is it 'smarmy'? Does that mean it is 'elegant'?
20:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> it's 'elegant', as interpreted by people whose concept of elegance comes from looking at pictures of fractals and videos by vi hart
20:42:35 <shachaf> i liked 2pi before it was cool and/or called tau
20:42:45 <shachaf> remember http://www.math.utah.edu/~palais/pi.pdf
20:43:05 <Bike> imo pi², comes up all the time!! in zeta functions!!
20:43:11 <Bike> and who doesn't like zeta functions
20:43:12 <zzo38> Well, you cannot call a C macro "2pi" so I called it TAU
20:43:28 <shachaf> zzo38: you can call it pi2
20:43:38 <shachaf> anyway the way that pdf draws it is a pi with 3 legs
20:43:43 <Bike> but that might be confused with Bike's Cool Constant, shachaf
20:43:52 <shachaf> you know it's good when it doesn't even have a unicode codepoint
20:43:59 <myname> it still needs a symbol, though
20:44:10 <zzo38> shachaf: I suppose if you want that symbol you could make a METAFONT program to draw it
20:44:14 <Halite[PC]> Bike: zeta is based on integral, and integral brings a half factor
20:44:26 <zzo38> It doesn't need a Unicode codepoint
20:44:30 <shachaf> myname: no, it can just go away and be gone
20:44:33 <Bike> WHOA A HALF FACTOR
20:46:01 <myname> i like the "everybody is equally fucked up" approach
20:46:03 <Halite[PC]> I totally support tau. You can't have a constant which is half of some important value. It has to be that value.
20:46:10 <shachaf> Halite[PC]: Weren't you banned?
20:46:24 <myname> Halite[PC]: tau^2/4 sucks
20:46:34 <Bike> i think it was a temp ban or something
20:46:45 <shachaf> Oh, maybe it was just #haskell and related channels.
20:47:05 <myname> Halite[PC]: you can't have a constant which is double of some important value
20:47:16 <Halite[PC]> myname: unfortunately pi is not an important value
20:47:22 <shachaf> For sending "creative" spam to the people who banned you.
20:48:52 <myname> also, pau is very handy for spheres, 2pau is much better than 4/3 pi or 2/3 tau!
20:51:48 <Halite[PC]> idk why all the mathematicians don't support tau
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20:52:34 <Halite[PC]> there's no reason to keep pi, all of the arguments for pi are just rewritten points that tau argued successifully against
20:52:42 <myname> because there is no reason to adapt tau :p
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20:54:41 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, ...
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21:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i was playing xcom the other day and there was some random npc called van doorn
21:10:07 <Bike> what's 48÷2(9+3)
21:10:22 <ais523> is this a trick question?
21:10:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what did van doorn do
21:10:35 <ais523> it looks like maybe a check to see how people will interpret associativity
21:10:40 <Bike> ais523: no, it's just about as interesting as tau.
21:10:44 <ais523> my answer is, "2 is not a function"
21:10:50 <ais523> or alternatively, 2 is a function
21:11:01 <Bike> is it a good function
21:11:23 <Bike> that's pretty good.
21:11:54 <Bike> i suppose 9 is the ninth power of a function, and so on?
21:12:38 <ais523> this is how you do numbers in, say, Underload or Unlambda
21:12:43 <Bike> looks like the expression still has problems, then.
21:14:25 <FreeFull> 2 is not a function unless there is a function instance for Num
21:14:54 <FreeFull> In which case the answer is 24
21:14:59 <Bike> we're interpreting the other numerals as functions as well, freefull.
21:15:16 <ais523> well, 9+3 is the twelth-power function
21:15:25 <ais523> so 2 is that function composed with itself
21:15:59 <FreeFull> I'd expect 9+3 to be the same as 12, even if 9 and 3 are functions
21:16:43 <ais523> a+b is defined as a(succ)(b)
21:17:29 <Bike> clearly + should just be succ so you don't need to define that.
21:18:27 <ais523> Bike: except that then it'd become nofix rather than infix
21:18:43 <Bike> as god intended.
21:18:45 <ais523> hmm… that sounds like an esolang idea
21:18:56 <ais523> all the operators are nofix, just values
21:19:01 <ais523> and the data are infix, postfix, etc.
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21:36:41 <Bike> https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/wiki/Projects:Hammer_and_Tongs oh, neat.
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21:47:43 <FireFly> if 2 is \f → f.f and 1 is id, what is 0?
21:48:17 -!- Bike has joined.
21:48:56 <Bike> FreeFull: \f -> id, probably
21:51:39 <FireFly> That makes sense I suppose
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21:54:10 <shachaf> It's just representing n as \f -> f^n
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21:55:47 <Bike> kind of hard when you try to get negatives, eh
21:56:38 <shachaf> Note that inhabitants of the type (forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a) exactly correspond to the naturals.
21:58:42 <shachaf> Or of the type (forall r. (Maybe r -> r) -> r), of course. I.e. Mu Maybe
21:59:16 <ion> Mu Shachaf
21:59:53 <Bike> does that sum with 1 right?
21:59:57 <Bike> (\xy.x)(succ)(\x.x) => (\y.succ)(\x.x) => succ
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22:20:06 <Slereah> Guys, is there a theorem that says that all TC things have like
22:20:30 <Slereah> I know there's one that the smallest Turing machines have 2 states, 3 symbols or vice versa
22:20:57 <Slereah> Logical combinators have 3 symbols, and two rules
22:21:18 <Slereah> OISC has three symbols, and I guess two possible behaviour?
22:21:31 <Slereah> Just wondering if there's an overall rule for that
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22:27:58 <Bike> though i'll have to remember that next time i need to be discordian.
22:28:35 <Slereah> After all all algorithms can be defined by a set of symbol, a grammar and transformation rules
22:28:50 <Slereah> So I guess you might be able to put limits on it
22:28:59 <Bike> basically 'things' isn't something you can generalize across.
22:30:38 <shachaf> i have five things am i tc
22:31:22 <quintopia> shachaf: you are clearly a finite state automaton
22:31:32 <Slereah> I have 99 problems but turing completeness isn't one of them
22:31:53 <Bike> i have ninety-nine problems and it's probably possible to reduce about half of them to the halting problem.
22:33:14 <quintopia> i got 99 problems but an STD ain't one
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22:47:45 <Bike> kmc: i like the joyent response.
22:52:00 <Bike> can't help but laugh at 'consider yourself chided'
22:54:18 <kmc> "God, this is so sad. This is the smallest amount of power I've ever seen go to someone's head."
22:55:36 <quintopia> clearly they never watched the green mile
22:55:38 <Bike> also glad i'm getting this from someone who calls themselves 'wizandrist'
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23:00:55 <FreeFull> Bike: I'd say 98 problems are reducible
23:01:18 <Bike> one of my problems is to count exactly how many of the problems are reducible to the halting problem.
23:01:31 <FreeFull> For the 99th one, you can't figure out if the algorithm for creating an algorithm will ever halt
23:02:12 <ais523> I guess it's generally undecidable whether problems reduce to the halting problem?
23:03:44 <zzo38> Any TNT string can be a halting problem for an oracle machine, I think.
23:05:07 <FreeFull> Can you state your problem in TNT form in the first place though?
23:05:41 -!- ruddy has joined.
23:05:51 <zzo38> First to convert all of "forall" into "exists" (using the logical negation operators in order to do so), and then, to try them until one number succeeds the check.
23:06:12 <zzo38> FreeFull: Perhaps not; what is your problem anyways?
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23:24:00 <Taneb> Stephen Wolfram sounds like an esolanger with too much money and power
23:24:52 <oerjan> `run echo "Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power." >wisdom/wolfram
23:25:27 <oerjan> (i apologize to all those who don't want to be in the same category as him.)
23:25:28 <myname> oerjan: should have mentioned the source
23:25:46 <Taneb> "Stephen Wolfrom is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him."
23:25:50 <ais523> it's a different sort of esolanging
23:26:05 <oerjan> ok Taneb convinced me.
23:26:15 <oerjan> `run echo "Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him." >wisdom/wolfram
23:26:28 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
23:26:59 <Taneb> `? automatic squirrel feeders
23:27:01 <HackEgo> automatic squirrel feeders? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:27:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/torus,/torus, Stephen Wolfram,/' wisdom/tanebventions
23:27:17 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/tanebventions: No such file or directory
23:27:25 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/torus,/torus, Stephen Wolfram,/' wisdom/tanebvention
23:28:02 <oerjan> `run ln -s wisdom/{stephen ,}wolfram
23:28:13 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:28:17 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
23:28:23 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:28:58 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*wolfram
23:29:21 <oerjan> `run ln -s wisdom/{,"stephen "}wolfram
23:29:24 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/stephen wolfram': Not a directory
23:29:45 <oerjan> ok what does that expand to
23:30:06 <zzo38> `run echo wisdom/{,"stephen "}wolfram
23:30:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/wolfram wisdom/stephen wolfram
23:30:35 <Taneb> `echo "Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them" > wisdom/automatic\ squirrel\ feeders # i got that wrong didn't i
23:30:37 <HackEgo> "Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them" > wisdom/automatic\ squirrel\ feeders # i got that wrong didn't i
23:30:42 <Taneb> `run echo "Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them" > wisdom/automatic\ squirrel\ feeders # i got that wrong didn't i
23:30:56 <Taneb> `? automatic squirrel feeders
23:30:58 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them
23:31:07 <oerjan> `run ln -s wolfram wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:31:08 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/stephen wolfram': Not a directory
23:31:44 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*wolfram: No such file or directory
23:31:48 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*wolfram
23:31:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory \ wisdom/wolfram
23:32:08 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:32:15 <myname> also, i like the automatic squirrel feeders
23:32:15 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:32:22 <ais523> `run touch wisdom/"cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory"
23:32:23 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `wisdom/cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory': No such file or directory
23:32:48 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
23:33:00 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:33:01 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
23:33:01 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/"stephen wolfram": No such file or directory
23:33:09 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:33:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory
23:33:17 <oerjan> `run rm wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:33:20 <ais523> hey, this ls is broken
23:33:26 <ais523> ls -d specifically doesn't list the contents of a directory
23:33:29 <ais523> just the directory itself
23:33:39 <zzo38> You should remove that ls anyways
23:33:52 <zzo38> The first few files aren't named after nicks, for one thing
23:33:53 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/ste*: No such file or directory
23:34:07 <oerjan> zzo38 has a point, although i don't like it.
23:35:00 <oerjan> `run ln -s wolfram wisdom/"stephen wolfram"; ? "stephen wolfram"
23:35:03 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/stephen wolfram': File exists \ bash: -: command not found
23:35:24 <oerjan> am i getting the order wrong or something
23:36:30 <oerjan> `run ln -T -s wolfram wisdom/"stephen wolfram"; ? "stephen wolfram"
23:36:32 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/stephen wolfram': File exists \ bash: -: command not found
23:36:32 <FreeFull> File exists means your rm doesn't seem to have worked
23:36:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*wolfram: No such file or directory
23:36:48 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:36:49 <zzo38> Try /bin/ls instead of ls if you need to I suppose
23:36:54 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/*wolfram
23:36:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/stephen wolfram \ wisdom/wolfram
23:37:02 <ais523> `run /bin/ls -d wisdom
23:37:12 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:37:26 <oerjan> `run ls -l wisdom/*wolfram
23:37:28 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 7 Nov 30 23:35 wisdom/stephen wolfram -> wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
23:37:30 <FreeFull> `? run rm -f "wisdom/stephen wolfram"
23:37:32 <HackEgo> run rm -f "wisdom/stephen wolfram"? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:37:37 <FreeFull> `run rm -f "wisdom/stephen wolfram"
23:37:50 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:38:11 <HackEgo> bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
23:38:18 <fizzie> FreeFull: "There you go, I broke it for you"?
23:38:41 <FreeFull> fizzie: He's been trying to delete it
23:39:25 <fizzie> FreeFull: To create a symlink, which based on the last ls was already there.
23:40:41 <FreeFull> `run ln -s wisdom/wolfram "wisdom/stephen wolfram" && echo "success"
23:40:45 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/stephen wolfram': Not a directory
23:41:39 <fizzie> Yeah, I think you just generated the wrong symlink again.
23:41:43 <fizzie> `run ls -l wisdom/*wolfram
23:41:44 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 14 Nov 30 23:40 wisdom/stephen wolfram -> wisdom/wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
23:42:00 <fizzie> (That's supposed to point at "wolfram", not "wisdom/wolfram".)
23:42:22 <FreeFull> I thought that since it errored it wouldn't make a symlink though
23:42:36 <ais523> aimake's symlink command has a more sensible argument pattern
23:42:43 <ais523> you give the source and destination relative to .
23:42:52 <ais523> and it automatically works out what should be put in the symlink
23:42:54 <FreeFull> `run /bin/ls -l wisdom/*wolfram
23:42:55 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
23:43:01 <oerjan> `run ln -s wolfram "wisdom/stephen wolfram"
23:43:11 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:43:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Much ado about a Wolfram.
23:43:29 <oerjan> i have no idea why that didn't seem to work the first time i did it.
23:43:39 <oerjan> fizzie: that's the usual, isn't it
23:45:53 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/"automatic squirrel feeder"{s,}
23:46:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/"automatic squirrel feeder"
23:47:06 <oerjan> `? automatic squirrel feeders
23:47:08 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
23:48:54 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented them." "wisdom/*" | wc -l
23:48:55 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/*: No such file or directory \ 0
23:49:03 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented them." wisdom/* | wc -l
23:49:07 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory \ 3
23:49:36 <FreeFull> What's up with this not a directory error
23:49:46 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/stephen wolfram
23:49:48 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory
23:50:01 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/"stephen wolfram"
23:50:03 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/stephen wolfram: Not a directory
23:50:03 <fizzie> It's has magically turned to the wrong symlink again.
23:50:08 <fizzie> `run ls -l wisdom/*wolf*
23:50:10 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 14 Nov 30 23:45 wisdom/stephen wolfram -> wisdom/wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Nov 30 23:26 wisdom/wolfram
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23:50:16 <HackEgo> stephen wolfram? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:50:19 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with that.
23:51:24 <oerjan> `run rm "wisdom/stephen wolfram"; cp wisdom/{,"stephen "}wolfram
23:51:25 <fizzie> The repository browser has disapparated oerjan's fixups.
23:51:36 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
23:51:43 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented them." wisdom/* | wc -l
23:51:49 <FreeFull> `run grep "Taneb invented" wisdom/* | wc -l
23:52:30 <oerjan> i guess there has been previous warnings that symbolic links don't work well with HackEgo.
23:52:33 <fizzie> `run grep -li 'taneb invented' wisdom/*
23:52:36 <HackEgo> wisdom/automatic squirrel feeder \ wisdom/d-module \ wisdom/stephen wolfram \ wisdom/torus \ wisdom/wolfram
23:52:53 <fizzie> I hope he'll put all that in his CV.
23:53:01 -!- _46bit has joined.
23:53:17 <HackEgo> _46bit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:53:37 <_46bit> Esoteric bot welcome colouring as well!
23:54:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:54:17 <fungot> Taneb: fnord __theo but i don't like
23:54:20 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
23:55:13 <oerjan> beware of _46bit, e's a massive multiplayer online krysz.
23:56:42 <oerjan> also i suspect Taneb invented him.
23:56:56 <kmc> what's a "TNT string"?
23:57:11 <zzo38> kmc: Something Hofstadter made up, I think.
23:57:23 <Taneb> kmc, it's a fuse for an explosive
23:57:32 <oerjan> a very unsafe text representation format.
23:57:58 <FreeFull> It'd be interesting if wisdom factoids were actually scripts in some programming language
23:58:21 <FreeFull> Bonus points for making all the current ones work fine in the new system
23:58:28 <Taneb> kmc, more seriously, it's a string in Typographical Number Theory